57
Australians at War Film Archive Alan Pope - Transcript of interview Date of interview: 18th March 2004 http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/1775 Tape 1 00:36 I made notes and been writin’ over there but I mean I’ve just got to take it from memory now. The only big problem is that sometimes I might run over meself and have to go back and that’s gonna… That’s fine. So if you could just start by telling us where you were born? I was born in Cobar on the 17th of January 1921. 01:00 My father was a porter on the railway station at the railway there and so that’s (UNCLEAR) there and so I don’t remember anything about that because I left there when I was small but one episode me mother kept drilling into me that I was passed off as dead there by a doctor as a baby 01:30 and they sent Mum home to by taxi to the place where they used to live and the nurse while the nurse laid me out and while the nurse was layin’ me out she saw a pulse beatin’ in the neck and she called the doctor and they revived me and they sent another taxi. My Mum had just paid the taxi and was when the other taxi came racin’ up blowin’ the horn and so the taxi 02:00 that took her home he sang out to her, to wait there was somethin’ wrong and then hopped in a taxi and went back and so Mum often told me about that but I remember nothing about that and the first thing actually I remember was down at a place called Uranquinty. That’s way down out from Wagga [Wagga Wagga], west of Wagga somewhere and I was only a youngster and all I can remember there was aeroplanes coming 02:30 up across and coming up over the back fence and disappearing and I said to me mother years after I could still remember that. She said, “You can’t.” She said, “You must have been too young.” She said, “That was at Uranquinty.” So that’s how I realised that that’s what it was. Where did you go to school? At Fairfield but Dad was a like a young fellow on the railway and when the First World War diggers [soldiers] come home they got preference for jobs. 03:00 So Dad was shifted from one place to the other and he did Cobar, Gerogery, Uranquinty and the Rock in three places round there and from there we went to I had a brother born there in Uranquinty in 1923. We from there we went to a place called Piper’s Flat, which is near Portland out in the middle west 03:30 there. We was there in 19 October 1924 because I had another brother born there. I at that time well say 1921, well see that’d put me around about three year old but there’s a couple a things I remember there. Mum gettin’ a scare with a bloke walked in alongside of her one day in the house and she just swash spotted him. She just said to me, “Get your father.” 04:00 With a railway station and house was right on the edge of the railway station and I yelled for Dad and then the bloke took off and another one that’s vivid in me mind from that was a dirty old tramp, whiskers and filth all over him, come to the door and he said, “Missus, could you spare me a billy a water, hot water, boiling water if you can,” and Mum said, “Oh there I’ll get it.” Away she went 04:30 and I’m lookin’ at this dirty old tramp and Mum only gone a bit and she come back and she said, “Do you know there’s a broken egg in the bottom of this and your tea leaves?” and he said, “Oh yes and it’ll be cooked by the time I get back to camp.” Well then from there we went to Fairfield, a suburb of Sydney. That was in 1926 because my sister was born there and that’s when 05:00 I went to school. Me eldest brother, he was a bit over twelve months older than me, he had not been to school or anything. Both him and I went to school there and Dad had risen from there to a what they call a night officer. He did all night work and he was in charge of the station at night time. A couple instances one that when we were goin’ to, talkin’ about school. Can you tell me about them later cause we’ll go back

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AustraliansatWarFilmArchive

AlanPope-TranscriptofinterviewDateofinterview:18thMarch2004

http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/1775

Tape1

00:36 Imadenotesandbeenwritin’overtherebutImeanI’vejustgottotakeitfrommemorynow.TheonlybigproblemisthatsometimesImightrunovermeselfandhavetogobackandthat’sgonna…

That’sfine.Soifyoucouldjuststartbytellinguswhereyouwereborn?

IwasborninCobaronthe17thofJanuary1921.

01:00 Myfatherwasaporterontherailwaystationattherailwaythereandsothat’s(UNCLEAR)thereandsoIdon’trememberanythingaboutthatbecauseIlefttherewhenIwassmallbutoneepisodememotherkeptdrillingintomethatIwaspassedoffasdeadtherebyadoctorasababy

01:30 andtheysentMumhometobytaxitotheplacewheretheyusedtoliveandthenursewhilethenurselaidmeoutandwhilethenursewaslayin’meoutshesawapulsebeatin’intheneckandshecalledthedoctorandtheyrevivedmeandtheysentanothertaxi.MyMumhadjustpaidthetaxiandwaswhentheothertaxicameracin’upblowin’thehornandsothetaxi

02:00 thattookherhomehesangouttoher,towaittherewassomethin’wrongandthenhoppedinataxiandwentbackandsoMumoftentoldmeaboutthatbutIremembernothingaboutthatandthefirstthingactuallyIrememberwasdownataplacecalledUranquinty.That’swaydownoutfromWagga[WaggaWagga],westofWaggasomewhereandIwasonlyayoungsterandallIcanremembertherewasaeroplanescoming

02:30 upacrossandcomingupoverthebackfenceanddisappearingandIsaidtomemotheryearsafterIcouldstillrememberthat.Shesaid,“Youcan’t.”Shesaid,“Youmusthavebeentooyoung.”Shesaid,“ThatwasatUranquinty.”Sothat’showIrealisedthatthat’swhatitwas.

Wheredidyougotoschool?

AtFairfieldbutDadwasalikeayoungfellowontherailwayandwhentheFirstWorldWardiggers[soldiers]comehometheygotpreferenceforjobs.

03:00 SoDadwasshiftedfromoneplacetotheotherandhedidCobar,Gerogery,UranquintyandtheRockinthreeplacesroundthereandfromtherewewenttoIhadabrotherbornthereinUranquintyin1923.WefromtherewewenttoaplacecalledPiper’sFlat,whichisnearPortlandoutinthemiddlewest

03:30 there.Wewastherein19October1924becauseIhadanotherbrotherbornthere.Iatthattimewellsay1921,wellseethat’dputmearoundaboutthreeyearoldbutthere’sacoupleathingsIrememberthere.Mumgettin’ascarewithablokewalkedinalongsideofheronedayinthehouseandshejustswashspottedhim.Shejustsaidtome,“Getyourfather.”

04:00 WitharailwaystationandhousewasrightontheedgeoftherailwaystationandIyelledforDadandthenthebloketookoffandanotheronethat’svividinmemindfromthatwasadirtyoldtramp,whiskersandfilthalloverhim,cometothedoorandhesaid,“Missus,couldyousparemeabillyawater,hotwater,boilingwaterifyoucan,”andMumsaid,“OhthereI’llgetit.”Awayshewent

04:30 andI’mlookin’atthisdirtyoldtrampandMumonlygoneabitandshecomebackandshesaid,“Doyouknowthere’sabrokenegginthebottomofthisandyourtealeaves?”andhesaid,“Ohyesandit’llbecookedbythetimeIgetbacktocamp.”WellthenfromtherewewenttoFairfield,asuburbofSydney.Thatwasin1926becausemysisterwasbornthereandthat’swhen

05:00 Iwenttoschool.Meeldestbrother,hewasabitovertwelvemonthsolderthanme,hehadnotbeentoschooloranything.BothhimandIwenttoschoolthereandDadhadrisenfromtheretoawhattheycallanightofficer.Hedidallnightworkandhewasinchargeofthestationatnighttime.Acoupleinstancesonethatwhenweweregoin’to,talkin’aboutschool.

Canyoutellmeaboutthemlatercausewe’llgoback

05:30 Mmm.

totalkingaboutschool.

SoifwecomebacktothestoriesaboutschoollaterAlanandifyoujusttellmewhathappenedwhenyouleftschool.Whendidyousignuptothearmy?

WhenIgottogobackintotherebeforetheschoolatFairfield,wewasonlytheretill1928,1928whenDad’sfatherdiedandwehehadtogobackontheproperty.That

06:00 wasthirteenmileoutfromStuartoutaplacecalledGumFlatandtherewasasmallschoolontheplacetherethatnomorethantenorelevenchildreneverwenttoschoolatit.Wedidn’tgetteachersallthetimebecauseitwastoolonelyforalotofthemandwebutwehadourschoolingandIpassedwhatwasthencalledtheQC[QualifyingCertificate]whenIwastenyearoldandneverwentbacktoschool.I

06:30 turnedelevenintheJanuaryandcourseinthosedaysDepressionwasonandtherewasalotofworkontheplacetobedoneandtheeldestbrother,he’dalreadyleftsoweleftschoolandweworkedontheplaceandthatandIwasonlythenelevenyearold.

Andthenwhendidyousignuptothearmy?

Ijoinedthearmyat,wellthewarbrokeout

07:00 andIfirstenlistedin17thofMay1940,causeI’dwentbackandtoldmygirlfriendI’djustenlistedandshesaid,“What,onmebirthday?”That’showIknowwhatdayitwas.AnyhowwentformonthsandnevergotacallupandthentheyhadabigrecruitingdriveinWellington.SoIwentinthereand

07:30 enlistedagainbutDadvowedthatafterhesawwhattheFirstWorldWardiggerscometo,“Noneofhisboys’llgotowar.”AnywayIheardnothingfromaboutthat.SoitwasusualforaroundChristmastime,abitafter,wealwayshadabreakandweusedtogotoSydneysomeoftheboysforaholiday.SoinJanuaryIsaidtoDad,“I’mgoingforafortnight’sholiday.”Hesaid,“Yeah,righto.”SoIwenttoSydney.

08:00 WentouttoSydneyshowgroundonthe16thofJanuary1941andenlistedandwentstraightin.“Twentytwo,unemployed.”PutmeageupandIwasunemployed.Sothat’showIgotintothearmy.

Andthenwheredidyougowiththearmy?

Iwasaweekintheshowgroundcamp,Sydneyshowground,thentherewassixofus

08:30 sentfromtheretoRutherfordcamp,WestMaitland.Iwasanewrecruitbutthisofficergavemeasheafofpapers.Hesaid,“AndhandthesetotheofficerwhenyougettotherailwayinEastMaitland.Someone’llbetheretomeetya.”SoItook’emupandIonefunnyinstanceIcanputonthatiswegottoandIstilldon’tknowIthoughtitwas

09:00 NewcastlebutitcouldabeenBroadmeadowsbutwhichstationwewasatthetimeIdon’tknowbutrightacrossfromthestationwasapubandofcoursethat’swheretheboyswent.Theguard’sgettin’thetrainreadytogoandsaid,“It’sallout,”andIpanickedandIsangouttohim,“Youcan’tgo.I’vegotthesemenoverhere.”Soafewatheguardandacoupleofstationhandsthatcomeracin’overandbroughttheblokesbackandwegotoutatEastMaitlandandthe

09:30 andthearmyblokesweretheretomeetusandIgotintotroubletootherebecauseIseenthisofficerandIjustwentandhandedhimthepapers.“Iwastoldtogivethistoyou,”andtheoldsergeantwentcrook.Hesays,“Don’tgetontothat.You’vegottopass’emthrough.Youshouldsalutetheofficer.”Anyhowbutthat’swhereIwentandthenfromRutherfordwedidalotoftraininginRutherford.ThenwewentfromRutherfordtoDubbo

10:00 butwecomeonthetrainupfromRutherforduptoWerrisCreekandthenwentacrossfromWerrisCreekonthebackline.“SlowboattoChina,”weusedtocallitbecauseyoucouldwalkasfastasthetrainwent.WewentoutthearmycampatDubbo,whichisnowwherethearmy,wherethezooisatDubboandwewasthereforaboutIthinkaboutsixweeks.Andthentheycalledfortwentysix

10:30 volunteersfortruckdriverstogotoBathurst.There’sabitaboutthatyoucangetlateronifyouthinktoaskmeandfromBathurstwentdownthere.I’dneverdrivenatruckinmelifebutwewantedtogetawaybecausethewarwouldbefinishedbeforewegotaway.Sowegetourlessonsattruckdrivingandloadingandbreaking,Iwasinthesupplycolumnthentakingusfoodandthen

11:00 theamountoffoodwehadtolimittoeachnumberofpersonsandthingslikethatandhowtobreakthefoodupintoquantities.ThenfinalleavewasontheendofJune.WehadfinalleavetheendofJune.AfterfinalleavethegroupthatIwaswithwentbytrainovertoWesternAustraliatothe

11:30 Northamcampthatwasdownthere.TheybrokedownontheNullarborPlainsandwehadtowaitthereacoupleanights.WewasinNorthamforIthinkfrommemoryacoupleaweeksandthenwewentdowntoFremantleandcaughttheaboatcalledtheSibberjacktoSingapore,landingoverthereeitherthe7thor8thofAugust

12:00 1941.

AndhowlongwereyouinSingaporefor?

Wellit’dbestraightoutyearsyoucouldsayrighttillIwenttowastakentoJapanasaprisonerofwarbutwecampedintentsintheSingaporeIslandforawhile.ThenwelikewetooknorthandwentuptoaplacecalledMalaccawhereweweretherecampedintheshowgroundandthenwe

12:30 didrelievingcompanybetweenMalaccaandaplacecalledSegamat.They’dhaveitforaperiodofafortnightandthenthechangeoverandbackwardandforwards.Thenwhenthewarbrokeoutonthe8thofDecemberwemovedtoaplacecalledtheCoronationEstateatKluangandthat’swhereI

13:00 witnessed,ornotwitnessedbutwascaughtupinthefirstbombingraidwhentheytheJaps[Japanese]bombedanairport,theaerodromenotfaroffwherewewereandfromtherewegotthewordtomovebackcausetheJapshadbrokenthroughataplacecalledMuar.Sowewentbackandasweweregoin’backwewerepickin’upstraysoldiersthathadcomebeencaughtupinitand

13:30 hadtofendforthemselves,alsosomeofthemwerewounded,andthengotbackontoSingaporeIsland.Thentheypickedoutallusthathadinfantrytraining,whichI’dhadatwarRutherfordcampandDubbo,andweweretakenofftheASC[ArmyServiceCorps]andputintoriflecompany.WhenIgotbackIontotheIslandandSingaporeIslandIhada303andfiveroundsofammunition

14:00 butwewerethereforawhileandwhentheJapsthroughtheshellingandthatandwhentheJapslandedweweretoldtogetbackinahurryandgoingthroughtherubberplantation,“Ibetterbequiet,”IwentheadoverturkeyandIapparentlyImustaknockedmeselfout.IdunnobutnextthingIknowIwasonthe,Iwasvomitingandonthebackofatruck,

14:30 onthetailboard,andIremembersayin’tothedoctorexaminin’me,“WhatamIdoin’uphere?”Hesays,“You’regoingtohospital.Getthisbloketohospitalquickly.”SotheyracedmeoffinavehicletoaplaceitwasjustcalledManorHouseorMansionHouse,Iwasn’tsurewhichnowandthenurseAustraliannurseswerethereandtheAustralian

15:00 saidtonursesaidtome,“Getinthereandstripoff,”shesaid,“Butdon’thaveashower.”Iwasinthebathroom.WhenIwentinIstripped,IwasfilthysoIhoppedundertheshowerandthewaterhadonlystartedhardlystartedandshecomein,grabbedme,draggedmeout,poppedmeonthebedandcausethosedaystheyItriedtofindoutwhatwaswrongandshe’s,“I’mtoobusy”

15:30 andthosedaystheyshavedyoufromnaveltokneeandanywayIdon’tremembermuchmoretillIcomewokeupinbedandthisblokewasdownthereandIsaid,“Whattheheck’shappenedtome?”andtheysaid,“Appendicitis.”Isaid,“Ohdon’tbesilly.”Hesaid,“Yeah,”hesays,“You’llseewhenyougetup.”Hesaid,“Thescar’snotonyourstomach.The

16:00 scar’srightupinthegroinandtheleg.Itburstgettin’itout.”Soanywayohthenextdaytheystartedtheshellin’throughthatareaandtheymovedusfromtheretothebighospitalinSydney,inSydney,inSingapore.AlexandriaHospitalandthat’swhereIwaswhenthecapitulationranandIwasthereforIthinkitwasthreeweeksIthinkorfour.

16:30 Itwasthreeweeksafterwardsbecausethesistersandnursesdidn’twanttoletanyoneoutbecausetheyweren’tsurejustwhattheJapreactionwouldbeandanywayonedaythetrucksturnedupandwewereAustralianswerebroughtintotheorputintothebackofthetruckandtakenouttotheChangi

17:00 areaandwegottoohsomewhereroundaboutI’dsayacoupleofkilometresoracoupleofmilesorsomethin’likethatoffitandwewerebundledoutandsaid,“Rightyouwalk.”Agate.“Walkinthere.”SoIwiththeotherswewalkeddownandhadtobowtotheJapguardsandallthis.AnywayIsawablokethereandIsaid,“Where’stheASCunits?”Theysaid,“OhgodowntherethatroadthereandIthink

17:30 they’reinthirtytwotothirtyeight.”SoIwentdownthereandacoursetheyallsaid,“Andwhereyoubeen?You’rereportedkilled.”Someonehadseenmegodownandthennothingheardofsince.Sotheyreportedmekilledinaction.Sofromtherewedidwentoutonworkin’partiesorfirstofallwehadtodigboreholesforlatrinesand

18:00 nooneknewmuchaboutcookin’riceandtheyhadtoworkitoutandthentheallthegrouptheovensandthatinthehousesweren’tbigenoughforthatsotheyhadtoputbigmoundsadirtandusethemasovens.Makeahole,cavityandthenyoumakeyourovenbutfromthereonitwasacaseofgoin’inonworkingparties,loadingshipsorunloadingships,cleaninguprubbishanddebrisfromthewhere

18:30 they’dbeenbombedandthingslikethat.

Howlongwereyoutherefor?Sohowlongwereyouinthatcampbeforeyoumoved?

WemovedfromtherefromSingaporeIslandwewenttoJapanonAnzacDay1943.WesailedoutaSingaporeHarbour.OfficiallyboundforBorneoasfaraswewerealltold.Wethought

19:00 thatwasgood.Weweregettin’closetoAustralia.Wewerebatteneddowntheholdsandtherewasveryfewofusleftatthetime.Ithinktherewasabouteightortenortwelveorsomethin’wasalloweduptogotothetoiletandthefirstoneupinthemornin’comebackandsays,“We’renotgoingtoBorneo,

we’regoingnorth.”Yeah,“We’regoingnorth,”andweknewhewasacityitesowetoldhimhedidn’tknowhiswaybutanyhowsomebodyelsewentupfromthecountryandhesaid,“Yeahwe’regoin’north.”

19:30 Sowefoundthenwewerewemustbeheadin’someplaceupChinaorsomewherebutanyhowwefinishedupinJapan.SowegotupthereinMay,IthinksometimeinMay.Ican’tthinkoftheexactdate.I’dhaveitinthatnotestheresomewhereand

20:00 fromtheretheytookusbytrainanduptoacitycalledOsakaorOssikaassomecallitandtheytookustoworkthenoutattheOsakasteelworksownedbytheTyshomanufacturingsteelcompanyandweworkedtherefromthenuntil

20:30 onthe13thIthinkitwasthe13thofMarch1945thatnightwhentheybigbombingraidonOsakaandtheyburnttheplacetothegroundandabouteightortendaysaftertheythenputusinthetrainandtookovertothewestcoastaJapantoaplacecalledTakefu,T-A-K-E-

21:00 F-Uandfromthereweworkedontheinthecarbonfactorymakin’bigblocksacarbontillthewarfinishedand15thofAugust.

AndwhendidyouarrivebackinAustralia?

Onthe13thofOctober1945.

Andwhatwhendidyougetdischarged?Whendidyougohome?

21:30 IactuallywenthomenextdayoutthebushbutandthatwasontheSundaybutthemailonlygoesuptowhereoutthepropertyouttherewherewewereonaTuesdayandFridaysandontheTuesdayIgotaurgenttelegramto,“ReporttoSydneyimmediately.There’samix-upinpapers.”SoIsaidtoDad,“WellI’llgetthisoverwithand

22:00 getbackonthefarm.”SoontheFridayIwentinwiththemailmantoandwenttoSydneyandtheyputmestraightintoConcordMilitaryHospital.TheyfoundIhadTB[tuberculosis]andsoIwasinthereandIwasinthereforfourteenmonths.Nevercomeoutofthattillthe12thofthe12th1946.

AllrightAlan.Let’sgobacknowtoyourchildhoodandtellusabout

22:30 yourearliestmemory?

Well,asIsaid,theearliestthatIinmemindwaswhentheseplaneswentoverthebackfenceandwesee’emaskidsandthatwasinaplacecalledUranquintyandbytimesI’damustabeenalittlebitover

23:00 three.OhImustabeennotquitethreebecausethebrotherwasbornthereandthinkin’backitcouldhavebeenearly1924,soIwouldbethree.Iremembernothin’muchaboutthatuntilIgottofromtheretoPiper’sFlat

23:30 andIcanrememberquiteafewthingsaroundPiper’sFlatbecausethestationranlikethatandourplace,thefrontdoorofourplaceopenedrightontotheendoftherailwaystation,theplatform.Weusedtoclimbuponthesidefenceandreachoutandtheenginedriversorthefiremencouldhangontotherailonthesideoftheirengineandreachoutandtouchourhands

24:00 andthentheyusedtothrowuscoaloverthefenceforourfires.Acrosstherailwaylinefromustherewasfivehousesallmadeofcorrugatediron.PeoplenamedMcSpadden,BillMcSpadden,hadoneandthatwasapostofficestoreandtheyhad

24:30 kiddiesmuchthesameaswhatwedidandweallbecomeveryfriendlythere.Icanremembermeyoungerbrother,theonethatwasbornatUranquintygettin’lostatapicnicandabigpaniconandwhenwefoundhimhewassittin’inapoolofwaterwithhisnewclothcappourin’thewaterandslushin’mudalloverhim.

25:00 ThenfromthereDadgotthewordtomoveandweweregoingtoFairfield.Itmustabeeninearly‘46becausewhenwegotintoFairfieldtheydirectedDadandMumandthemuptoahouseandwhenwestartedwentinitalllooked

25:30 dilapidatedandtherewasnofurniturein,whichhadbeensentfurtherorprevious,andMumwasstartedtocry.She’snotandwewentintolookatthenewplaceandtherewasfloorboardsmissin’andholesinthewallsandanyhowDadblewhistopandsaid,“Justdon’tmove.Yastophere,”andhewentbacktothestation.Hewasonlyawayashortwhileandhimandacoupleablokescomeupand,“Theygaveusthewrong

26:00 directions.Weshouldofinsteadofcomingupthiswayweshouldagonetheotherway,”andwewentdowntheotherwaytothehouse.TherewasabrickhouseandallourfurniturewasthereandthereasonIrememberImustabeenearly’26becausemesisterwasborninJune‘26andtheywereandafteralltheupsetMumandDadwereabitscaredthatsomethin’wouldhappenwiththebaby.Mumwasgotveryupsetoverthingsandsothat’swherewewere.

26:30 Wenttoschoolthere.WhenwewenttoschoolatFairfield,thepublicschool,somebiggirlsorbigtousanywayusedtoattackuswiththeirschoolcases.Nottheordinarycasetheyusenowbuttheoldstrapsandwhatschooljustliketheboysusedtowearandwe’dcomehomewithbloodonusandshirtsandstraptornandMumgotsickofitandshesaidtoDadoneday,

27:00 “You’dbetterdosomethin’aboutit.”Shesaid,“Theycan’thavethisallthetime,”andDadsaid,“Welltheycan’thitgirls.”Sowe’rehavin’teaandDadsays,“Igotagoodidea,”andacoursewewereallears.Hesays,“Whentheyattackyanexttime,”hesays,“thetwoayouse.Runat’em.Tackleoneandgetherdown.Kissher.”Nowwedidn’tliketheideaathatbutanyhowandthenextafternoontheyusualhabitof

27:30 attackin’usandIdon’tknowitwasLesorIsaid,“Comeon,”andweracedonegirldowntoandkissedherandthosegirlsnevertouchedusagain.Imeanitcouldbedifferentnowadays.Theymightacomebackquickerbutthat’satFairfieldandanyhowwewenttoschoolone,noitwasn’tthatwasthecrazethentheoldCharleston[typeofdance]comein

28:00 andwehadaschoolteachernamedMissMcCarthythatwasverylivelyinherselfanddancin’andsheusedtotryandgetthekidsdancin’.Anyhowonedaywewerehomeandweheardalotanoiseandscreamin’goin’onandwentoutandtherailwaygateswasonlyaboutohlessthanahundredyardsfromwherethehousewasandinthosedays

28:30 theyhadtherailwaygatestostopthetrafficfromgoingthroughandthiswomanwasscreamin’.Wewentupthereandacarhadjammedheragainstthegatesandbrokebothherlegsandhepanickedandhecouldn’tandinsteadofreversin’heitkeptgoin’forward.Hitthegateandbouncekeptgoin’forward.Soneedlesstosaywehadnoteacherthenforohwelltheonenottheusualonewasn’tthere.AnotheronetookherplaceacoursebutIremember

29:00 that.

Howdidyouenjoybeingnearthecityafteryourchildhoodinthecountry?

Wellweweretooyoungsortoftoappreciateit.WewentintothecityandwalkandDadtookusinandMumandwalkroundtheshopsandthingslikethatbutohitwasabigeventandthingslikethatbutitdidn’tseemmuch.Nowdaysitwouldyouwouldn’ttakemuchnoticebutthenitwasespecially

29:30 aroundChristmastime.Allthelittlethings,theshopsithadtoattractthecustomersandthingslikethatbutthatweonlystoppedtherefrom1926toearly1928becauseonthe17thofJanuary,mybirthday,in1928whenDad’sfatherdiedafewdaysbeforebuthewasburiedonthe17th

30:00 andmyfatheraskedforpermissionfromtherailwaytoashewastheonlyson,therewasfivegirls,couldtheyhegohavetimeofftogobackandfixtheestateupandtherailwaywouldn’tlethim.Sohetold’emwhattodowiththeirjobandtherailwayandeverythingelseandwentupthereandwesettledontheproperty.

30:30 Everythingwassortaroughandreadyandtheonlythingwehadwashorses,whichuskidslovedandthoseplacesthosedaystherewasnoelectricityandhorsebackwastheonlywayorsulkyandifyouhadtogototownyourodeahorsethirteenmilestotownandbutoftenDadandMumrodebutsometimestheywentinthesulkyandthenbythattimetherewas

31:00 fiveofus,sixofus.TherewassixofusandtheyopenedupanotherbigareaforsettlementandDadputinforpartofitandwelloneoftheblocksandhedidn’tgetit.PeoplenamedHoneysetsgotit

31:30 butapparentlytheycouldn’tmeettheircommitmentsandwhenyougottheseblocksyouhadtodosomuchimprovementoverayearortwoyearsorsomethin’butanywayineither1935or1936Dadgotwordfromthegovernment,“Washestillinterestedinthe…?’SoIrememberDadandMumandustwoelderboys

32:00 sittin’atthetabletalkin’aboutitandDadsays,“WellifIgetit,youtwoboyswillbetheone’llbeuptheretoworkit.”Wellthatgoodwewereright,ussillylookin’kidsbutanywayhewroteawayandaccepteditandhegotit.Sowewentupbutonlybyhorsebackcouldyougettoit.

32:30 Ifyouwenttowhentheriversweredownyouwentontheflatareayoucouldittookyaaboutanhourandthreequarterstoride.Ifyouwenttheriverswereupandyouhadtogoaroundthroughthehillycountryittookanythinguptotwoandahalftothreehourstoride.We’dhaveahorseeachandpackhorsesandwe’dtakeenoughfoodtodousah,tendaystoafortnighttype

33:00 athing.Uptherewasamudhutwithwallsabouteighteeninchesthick.Woodendoor,makeshiftdoor.Twowindowswithnoshuttersoranythingelseon’em,justwideopengapsandstraightoppositethedoorwasanopenfireplace.Nostove,nonothin’.Sowehadtopackeverything.Iron,

33:30 castironkettleandallthisgearthatwehadtopackupthere.Whenweputtwosinglebedsinthehuttwopeoplecouldn’twalktogetherbetween’em,that’showsmalltheplacewas.Thebedwastwobedsononeendandamakeshifttableacrosstheotherendandthat’swhereweusedtospendourtime.Dad’dcomeupforawhileandsowhenhe

34:00 comeup,twoofusblokesboyshadtobunktogetherandwehadtodofencingandrabbitingand

cleaninguptherabbitsweremostlypoisoningandtrappingandthentherewasnoshearingshedoranythingelseonitsowehadtoitwasaalldayjobtotakethesheepdownfromtheredowntothebottomplaceforshearingandsamewhenwefinishedshearingtobring’embackandthat’s

34:30 whereIwaswhenthewarbrokeout.Howwasthat,fromtherewejustwentbackwardandforwardstillwhenIenlistedandgotaway.

Howdidyouhearaboutthewarbreakingout?

Ohwell,asIsaid,themailcomeoutTuesdaysandFridaysouthomebutDadhada

35:00 oldbatterywireless.Heusedtolistentothenewsandthenthey’ddisconnectthebatterytosaveitforthenexttimethenewswasonandthingslikethatandhearditoverthenewsandofcourseblokeslikemeselfIthought,abitsillyIsuppose,IthoughtyouknowandIwasalwaysonread,I’dreadanythingatall.BooksorwhatevertherewastoreadandIthought,“Oh

35:30 that’dbeinterestin’goin’there,”youknowandthenwhentherecruitingdrivescomethat,“Dosomethin’foryourcountry,”typeastuffandIsupposeitgotatmeabitpatrioticorsomethin’andtheeldestbrother,hehadbeeninthemilitiabeforethewarandwasoutofitagainbeforethewarbrokeoutbuthewasn’tgreatlyinterested.Hegotajobontherailwayandsothattiedhimupand

36:00 thenextbrothertome,himandIweretheonesthenthatwerelookin’afterthetopplaceandsothat’showthewarbrokeoutandsoasIsaid,Dadsawthemcomehomeandwecouldseewehadsomeof’emonourplacethatusedtocampandtheGlawsonbrothers,theywereFirstWorldWardiggersandgotpropertynexttousontheothersideoftheriver.Theyweren’tveryfitpeopleatallfromthegasandthatandDadvowed

36:30 thathe,“Noneofhisboys,”butIgotabitheadstrong,whichIandIstillcarryonnowforthatmatter,someathethingsIdo.Sothat’showIknewthewarbrokeout.

Didyouhaveanargumentwithyourfatheraboutjoiningup?

NoIhadnoargument.IjustsaidthatIwasjoinin’upandhesaid,“You’renot.”SoablokenameofJackAshworthwasaNewZealander.Hedid

37:00 jobsforusbutalsoworkin’onthenextpropertyandIwasgoinghomeonedayfromthedamridin’andImethimonhiswaydownandIsaid,”Whereyagoin’Jack?Unusualforyoutobehere.”Hesaid,“Ijustgotmecallup.”Hesaid,“I’mstillinthereservesfromtheFirstWorldWarwiththearmy.”Hesaid,“Igotsixmonthstogobut,”hesaid,“they’vejustgivemeanoticetoeithergobacktoNewZealandorjoinupintheAustralianArmy.”

37:30 AndIsaid,“Whatareyagonnado?”andhesaid,“JoinupintheAustralianArmy.”Isaid,“Right,let’sgo.”SowentdowntoBathurstwasthenearestrecruitingdepotatthepolicestation.That’swhereIjoinedup.

Justbackforamomentonthefarm,howmanyhelpersdidyouhave?

Howmanyhelpers?VirtuallyonlythebrotherandIonthetop.Dadcomeupoccasionallyandthentheyoungerbrotherwhenhegotoldenoughtocomeupanddosomething.

38:00 Whenitwasshearingtimewedidourownshearing.DadandLesandIwoulddothebladesandthentheyoungerbrothers’ddopickin’upandthingslikethatandthenwegotthewoolallstartedtomassuponuswe’dknockoffandcleanthatupandputandbaleitandthengobackonandsoIfinishedupwellfairbladeshearerbut…

38:30 Howmanysheepdidyouhave?

Therewasabitoverathousandonthebottomblock,onthebottomplace,andaboutfifteenhundredonthetopplace.

Andhowdidyoubalethewool?Canyouexplainthattous?

Yeah.Whenthefleecewastakenoffyoudidtheskirtingandcleanedupallthedirtypartsofit.Rolleditupandthenstackeditina

39:00 storeinabayandwhenthebaygotfullyouhadthesebigwoolbalesthatweresenttoyafromtheGoulburnWoolCompanyandthatmanytoapressandyoupushedthesefleecesinto’emandstamped’emdownandwhenyouweresatisfiedyouhadenoughyoufilledtheotherblockboxup.Thenyoutippeditupontopandthenuseabigratchetbrace,atwohandedbrace,one

39:30 ineachhand,you’d(UNCLEAR)itupandyapressedthemdownandtherewasroughlyinthevicinityofthreehundredpoundineachbale.

Andhowwouldyougetthemfromthetoppropertytothemarket?

Ohwehadnothingatthetopproperty.WehadtheyallwentdowntothebottompropertyandIcanrememberoneofourfirstlotsfromthebottompropertywastakeninbyabullockteamandthebullockwagonwasloadedwithwoolgot

40:00 boggedintheriverrightbelowthehouseandDadcouldn’ttriedtohelphim.Hesaid,“No,”andDadsaid,“WelltheonlythingI’ddoisputtheolddraughthorseinfront,”andtheblokesaid,“No.”BlokenamedChineryIthinkfrommemory.Hesaid,“No.”Hesaid,“Thehorsewon’tworkwithbullocks,”andDadsaid,“Thisonewill.”SohegotoldTobyandtookhimdownandhookedhiminthefront

40:30 andhesaid,“WhenIsay‘Go’,”hesaid,“youwhackthebullocks,”andthisolddraughthorselaidintothecollarandtookthestrainandeventuallytheygotitoutandunhookedthedraughthorse.Thenhetookthewooltotownandbutafterthatwehadablokehadabiggotabigtrucksohedidtheloadingfrom

41:00 thereandtookitinbytruck.Acouplealoadswetookourselvesinbyhorsewasinainthebigflattopwagon.Youknowhorsedrivenwagon.Wetookitinbutthirteenmileyoucanonlyputacertainamountabalesonandwithit(UNCLEAR)in’emandsoyouhadtohavetwoandthreetripstogetthewoolbutitstilltimemeantnothin’anditsavedyamoney,whichwaswhatweweretryin’tosaveatthetime.

41:30 Endoftape

Tape2

00:31 HowmanybrothersandsistersdidyouhaveAlan?

Twosistersandsixorfivebrothersandmeself.Eightofusinthefamily.

Howdidyourfamilygetbywiththatmanykids?

Veryhard.Handmedownsdurin’theDepressionyears.Ifyouhadtogototown,firstinbestdressed.Soit’sjustoneathosethings.Imeanonthelandwegrewourownvegetablesand

01:00 killedourownmeatandmilkedourowncowsandabouteverytwoorthreemonthswe’dtheneighbours’dgetabullockandkillabullockandsplititupamongsttheneighboursbecauseonebullockwasabittoomuchforusindividualsyouknow.Soallinallandthenofcoursewayupthereinthebushyoudidn’thavetogetyourselfdressedupeveryday.Youwentoutinsomeatheclothesyoudidwouldn’tbeseenpastthehousein

01:30 andbarefooted.IneverknewwhatitwastowearsockstillIwentinthearmyandIcantellyasomethin’aboutthatlater.Sothat’showwegotonyouknowandsoandacourseIthinkinbigfamilieseverybodyhelpedeachotherandboughtup’emandhelped’emupandthat’stheway.

Howoldwereyouwhenyouweresenttomanagethetopproperty?

I’dbeeither,asIsaid,1935or1936soI’deitherbe

02:00 fourteenorfifteenandtheolderbrotherhewasfifteenmonthsolderthanme.SobutDadusedtokeepaprettygoodeyeonusandgiveusatelluswhattodoasfarasthefencing’sconcernedandthenwhenhecomeuphe’dgohomethenandthenwhenhecomeuphe’dcheckoffonwhatwedidandpickoutanyfaultsorwebecomeour

02:30 owndoctors.Doin’fencepostsIshatteredthepointathatfingerwithasledgehammerbutwedidn’tgohome.Wejustpushedittogetherandwrappeditupandonetimewhenwewereloppin’forsheep,loppin’thetreesforsheepinabigdrought,thebrothercutthetopoffthetwofirsttwofingersonhislefthand.Skinneditthrough.Tookthecompletenailoffthefirst

03:00 oneandhalfthenailofftheotheroneandwrappeditup.Hewasinonearea,paddockandIwasintheotherandwhenIwentbacktothehuthewastherewithatowelwrappedrounditandbloodeverywhere.AsIsaid,itwasuptotwoandahalfhourshorsebackhome.SoIsaid,“Yougottagohome.”“No.”Hesaid,“I’llberight.”Anyhowitwasstillbleedin’twodaysafterandIgotworriedandIsaid,“Right.We’regoin’home,”andawaywe

03:30 wentandDadhadalookatit.Hesaid,“Andthere’snoyoucan’tdomuchthere,”andonahorseintotownandthenhadtogobytrainthenintoWellingtontothedoctorandthedoctorsearedtheendofitandthatwasright.Youknowthatsortofthingyoulearnttodothesethings.Theyounger,thesecondnottheyoungernextonebut

04:00 theoneafterthatyouknow,herunabamboosplinteruptheinstepofhisfootthereonetime.DadandMumwereintownandacourseifyouknowanythingofbamboo,that’swhenitgetsinitstingsandhe’syellin’.SoIwentandgotDad’scut-throatrazorandwegotitandweIrundowntheskinontopofthesplinterandlifteditoutandthenhadtotellDadIusedhisrazorafterwardsand

04:30 Dadbein’ontherailwayhehadheknewfirstaidsohelookeditoveranditwasallright.Sothingslikethat.Anotherone,adoublescarthereandthereandthereIdidthatwhenIwasonlyabouttenyearoldandfelloveronabrokenbottleinthedirtandmud.Sowewasheditoutand

05:00 usualhabitinthosedays,iodine.Pureiodine.Pouredonitandpushittogetherandithealedbutwhenithealeditleftapiecesittin’outalmostthetoplikethetopofyourlittlefingerandnowandagainI’dbumpitandit’dbleed.SoonedaysaidDadsaidtome,“Wellthat’snogood.Getuponthatchair.”Sohegothiscutthroatrazor.Went‘schhhoomp’

05:30 andcutitoffanddabbeditwithiodineandthatwasallrightandithealedup.Imeanthey’rethingsyalearnttodo.Youweren’tyounotonlylearntthem,youhadtobecauseallthetimeyoucouldn’trideahorsethirteenmilesandthenyouhadtogoanotherwellthat’sthirtyfivekilometressoyoucanworkitoutinmiles.Idon’tknowwhatgetthemileage,fromthereintoWellingtontowherethenearestdoctorwas.Sothat’showyousurvived.

Whatabout

06:00 girlfriends?

Whatwerethey?No,itwasIwasaboutsixteen.DadwehadtwotenniscourtsathomeandmostlyonlypeoplethatcomedownandplayonaSundayswasourneighboursandsomeofthemwererelatedandthenSundaynightsthey’dno,yeahSundaynightmostly

06:30 they’dcomeandhaveadanceatourbiglongkitchen.Thirty-oddfeetthatwayandfifteenfeetthatwayandnothin’else.Justpushallthefurnitureuponeendanditwasonandbutbein’prettywelltennisDadandmeselfandtheothertwobrotherswereprettygoodtennisplayersandwe’drideintoStuartTownandthenmeetothergroupsfromdifferentotherplacesandgoandholdtennismatches

07:00 andthingslikethatandabout1936wewentonthebackofatrucktotheWellingtonCavestoplaytennisagainstthemandthisskinnylongleggedbratofagirl,she’slistenin’,wasthereandnomatterwhathappenedshewaspickedtoplaywithmeagainstamixedpair,mixedlotandthenfoundusseatedtogether

07:30 andthenfromthenonthedifferentdanceswewenttoforsomeunknownreasonshealwaysseemedtobeclosehandy.Anywaywedecidedthenthatwe’dstartgoin’togetherandgotengagedonfinalleave.Theywantedtogettheywantedustogetmarried.Isaid,“Noway.Comehomeinvalidedandthatsortofno

08:00 burden,“nolotforawoman,”butanywaythat’stheonlygirlfriendIeverhadandafterweweremarried,orsomemonthsafter,weranintosomeathepeoplefromEuchareena,alittleplacejustawayfromStuartTownthatwherethewellthenthegirlfriendusedtogotoschool

08:30 andthisDot,IcantellyaherfirstnamebutIprobablynotonthissaidtohim,“Wellyougothim,”andIsaid,“What’sthis?”Itwasastandin’jokethatcourseIwhenIcomehomeIwentintoConcordHospitalandthatIcouldn’tastayed.Isaid,“Ohyeah,youmean,ohyeah,shecaughtmeinbed.”Meanin’Iwasinhospital,youknow.Andshe’sthegirl’s…Dotsaid,“Noway.”Isaid,“Why?”Shesaid,“Youdon’tremember

09:00 probablybut,”shesaid,“whenyousehadyourfirstholycommunioninthechurchatStuartTown,”shesaid,“Kathsaid,‘That’stheblokeIwanttomarry’,”andIsaid,“Shedidn’ttellmethat,”andKathsaid,“No.You’darun,”becauseItellyathis.OuttherejustwithourownfamilymostathetimesgirlsandIwereIwasshy.Ikeptwellawayfrom’em.Gettodanceswellyou’ddancewith’emandninetimesoutatentheyhadtocomeandask

09:30 meforadancecauseIwouldn’tgoandaskanyoneforadance.Weusedtohopinonthesebarndancesandthingslikethatwhenyoujustjotinwiththemix-upsbutapartfromthatandI’mstillshywithgirls.WellIwon’tsayshy,morebackward,I’llputitthatway.

Allright.SoyouwentdowntoBathurstwithyourKiwi[NewZealand]matetosignup.Isthatright?

Yeah.

Andwhathappened?

Well,asIsaid,wenthomeandnothin’happened.I

10:00 DadknewwhereIwentdowntoenlistandIalwayshaditinmymindthathestoppeditbutImeanIcouldn’tprovenothin’andsowhentherecruitingdrivewasoninWellingtontheyallthefamilyhadallwentinthereandIwentandenlistedagain.

HowmuchaftertheBathurstexperiencewasthat?

10:30 ThatwasinSeptemberandBathurstwasinMay.

1940?

1940.ThatwasinSeptemberwhentherecruitingdrivewasonandIenlistedagainandwhenwewenthomeDadsays,“You’renotgoin’.”Ijustwouldn’targue.Ijustsaid,“We’llsee.”ThenI’dheardnothin’andthatwentontillChristmastimeandthenIsaid,“Ohwell.WhentheChristmasisoverI’lltakemy

11:00 usualholidaytoSydney.”SoIwentdowntoSydneyandstoppedattheAunty’splace,Dad’ssister’splace,inSydneyandforadayortwoandthenIsaid,“Oh,whynot?”andIwentouttotheshowgroundandenlistedandthenacourseinthosedaystheyhadthreedaysleaveaattheendofeverymonthandIwenthomeinfulluniform.Dadhittheroofandthreatenedtodragmeoutagain

11:30 andtheandMumsaysandIsaid,“Wellifyoudo,”Isaid,“I’llshootthrough.”Isaid,“Mymind’smadeup.I’mgonnago,”andMumsaid,turnedroundtoDadandshesaid,“Lethimgo.Ifhewantstogoit’sbettertogolikethisthanwhatitistoshootthroughandenlistsomewhereelse,”andsothat’sthewayI’d…

Soyouactuallyhadtoenlistthreetimesbeforeyougot

12:00 there?

That’swhyI’mshirtyonsignin’papersnow.

Whywereyousomotivatedtoenlist?

Candidly,Idon’tknow.Ihavetriednumeroustimestogooverit.Iwasalwaysatschoolfondofhistory.Ipassedinhighmarksin

12:30 anyexamtheyhadinhistoryandIinmyownmindIthinkthathadsomethin’todowithit.OfreadingandhavingthatinmymindandallIcouldsayisyouknowthatwasyouknowIwon’tsaypatriotic,althoughIwasaproudtobeAustralian.Westillfacedtheflageverymornin’atschoolandsalutetheflagandI’dandI

13:00 thinkthatwaswhatitwas.

Sowhenyoufirstenlistedwherewereyou?Attheshowground?

Yeah,Ienlistedattheshowground.

Andwhattrainingdidyougetthere?

WellactuallynextdoortononebecauseIwasonlythereaweek.Fromthetimewejustsettledinandgotthisandgotthatandgotelseandthensixofus

13:30 hadvolunteeredfortogointheinfantryandthentheinfantrymobtheydetailedustowasatRutherfordcampEastMaitland.Sotheysaid,“Right,”andthat’swheretheybundledusoffuptothem.AsIsaid,theygavemepapers.Iforwhatreasontheygave’emtomeIdon’tknowbecausetherewasblokesinthereolderthanIwasandupthereandIgotmeself

14:00 intotroubleasIhandin’thepapersstraighttothelieutenantandinsteadagoin’throughtheproperprocedurethesergeantandthingslikethat.Whenthetheretheyreallygotstuckintousforinfantrytraining.TheytookusIthinkwithinthefirstdayortwoonasixmileroutemarchandweweredoin’threemileanhouranditwastwohoursoutandthentwohoursback

14:30 andwhenwecomebacktheoldsergeantsaystous,“Right.AllyousegodownandhaveaCondiesCrystals[bluedye]footbath,”andthatwastotoughenyourfeetup.Somugginsme,Ididn’tneedonecauseI’dbeenusedtogoin’withoutsocksandheavyhobnailbootsandgreeneyedbootsinthebushandalotoftimeswithoutboots.SoIjustlaidbackonthebunk

15:00 andthesergeantcomeroundandletoutaroarandparadedmebeforethemajorandwentupbeforethemajorandhesaid,“Youmeantotellmeyouwentonthatroutemarchandyourfeetareallright?”andIsaid,“Yes,sir.”“Idon’tbelieveya,”andacourseIjustshutup.Nocouldn’tsayanythingagainstthat.He’sthesortatheboss.Hesaid,“Takeyourbootoff.”SoIstillhadnosockson.SoItookmeboot

15:30 offandpoppedmefeetupontheendathedeskandhesays,“GoodGodman.How’dyouhavefeetlikethat?Allrightyoucango,”buthesaysandIgothalfwaytothedoorandhesaid,“Justaminute.”SoIpulledupandhesaid,“You’reinthearmynow.Youneverrefuseanorder,”andIjustlookedathim.Isaid,whatcouldIsay,“Wellsorrysir.Ididn’tknow,”andwentbackandthat’ssothat’soneatheinstancethat

16:00 butIluckyformeIwasn’teverbackwardsinanywayIwantedtosaysomethin’.SoIgotawaywithit.

WhatothertrainingdidyougetthereatEastMaitland?

Ohinfantrytraining.Unarmedcombat,bayonetpractice.Younameit.Anythingtodowiththeinfantryandfightingagainsteachotherinamockbattlestypeathing.So

16:30 thatwasourtraininginthere.Thenthe7thDivisionhadmovedoutofDubbosotheydecidedthey’dputthe8thupthere.SowewentupthereandIwasinheadquartercompanyandthe8thTrainingBattalionandtheoneofoursergeants,

17:00 orsergeantmajoractually,wasinthatfortythousandhorsemen.SergeantMajorSmiley,aFirstWorldWardigger,andwedidalotabattlesandmockbattlesandonevery,verywellwethoughtitwasfunnybutcertainonesdidn’t.Theyhadthismockbattle.HeadquartersCompanyagainstACompany.The

majorcomedownandsays,“I’vearrangedamockbattle.”Hesaid,“NowACompany’sgonnabeonthatriseoverthereandheadquartercompanyonthatone.”Hesaid,“I’mthereferee,”andhesays,“I’llgodowninthevalley,”andhesaid,“I’llsetupfairylight,”orincaseyoudon’tknowaflare,andhesays,“Nowyoutakeprisoners.Thathutistheprisoner’shut.Now,”hesaid,“theonethatcapturesthemostprisoners

18:00 winsthebattle,”buthesaid,“Nomatterwhoitis,whatranktheyhold,takenonotice.Ifthey’reaprisoneryoutake’emprisonerandput’emin.”SoIcan’tremembernowwhetheritwasfourorfiveofusnow.Wereckoneditwasallabigjoke.Sowewerealltogethertalkin’aboutitandthemsomeonesays,“Wellwe’llstopthis.”

18:30 “How’sthatgonnahappen?”“Watchwherehegoesandwe’lltakehim.”Soneedlesstosaywethought,“That’sgood.”Soweafterdarkwewatchedwherehewentandwefollowedhim.Givehimchancetosettleinandthenwelumberedhimandboydidhekickupastink.“I’mthemajor.”Someonesaid,“Ohifyou’rethemajor

19:00 you’retheonethatsaid,‘Nomatterwhatrankoranythingtheyhold,take’emprisoner.Theygointhere.’You’vebeentakenprisoner.Yougoupthere.”ACompany’swaitin’overthere.HeadquartersCompany’swaitin’here.Nofairylight.Noflarewentup.Soanywayitcomebackthewholelotwasawashoutandweallgotabiglecturenextmornin’abouthowthingsflopped

19:30 butwejusttookitasitwasandaboutafortnightafter,wordcomethroughforonetheywantedHeadquarterCompanywastogivetwentysixtruckdriverstovolunteerstogotoBathursttogointotheASCandthewholeheadquartercompanysteppedforward.TheytakeonestepforwardandthewholeHeadquarterCompanyandthatwasthesergeant’sorderthat.Thenextminutethemajorjumpedup.Hesaid,“Isaid

20:00 no,”hesaid,“Thesergeantsaid‘Onestepforward.’Nowtwentysixayousestepforward,”andthewholeHeadquarterCompanysteppedforwardagainandhewentdownandhejustwentalong,“You,you,youandyou,”andwentalongthelinepickin’’emandoutathefourorfive,Ithinkitwasfive,hegotfourofusthatwereinthisgothim.SoweusedtosaytohimhedidthatdeliberatelybutthenweweretakenandthentakenbytrucktoBathurstintothe

20:30 ASC.

Howwouldyoudescribethetrainingyougotpriortogoingaway?Wasiteffective?

Yes.Theinfantrytraining,wellitwasveryeffectiveinasensealthoughbredinthebush,havin’thebrothersandtherewasfourofusveryclosetogether.

21:00 WeusedtofightandmanhandleeachotherandthatandyoulearnwhatalotaboutthingstherebuttheessentialpartofitandIthoughtthatwhenwedidgetintoaction,italthoughI’dbeenoffitforagoodwhileitstillcomebacktomefordifferentthingsIhadtodo.SoI’dsayyes,thewhenwehadtobreakupsuppliesandtravel’emwellquitefrequentlywewereinthetruckstwenty

21:30 threehoursadaywhenactionstarted.Bythetimewewentfromwherewewere,KluangdowntoTanglinBarracksandpickedupsuppliesandwentbackandbroke’emupandthingslikethat.Allthatsortatrainingdidtheworldagoodbecausenotonlywasitjustordinaryroutinebutanyhourathedayornightthey’dcallyoujustcomeoutandyoumightajustgottobedandthey’dcallyououtandgiveyoufiveminutestogetdressedand

22:00 outonparadeandthenwe’dgoforarunsomewhereandwemighthavehadtorunahundredyardsandbackbutyouhadtobereadyattheandbeenabletoprepareyourselfveryquickly.Sothat’sandallthatsortofthingstoodinstead.

Okay.TellusaboutBathurstthen.

Welltherewasn’tsuchagreatlotatBathurst.Theytaughtyoutodothesupplies,asIsaid.

22:30 Ohoneinstanceacorporal,nottomentionnopackdrill,acorporaltookusoutoncompassreading,rangefindingandthingslikethat.Anyhowwewentout,bitterlywinteritwas,andawaywewent.Campedthenight.No

23:00 (UNCLEAR)rightoutinthebushandbitterlycoldnightsoafewofusbushies[menthatcamefromthebush]said,“We’llfixthis,”andwelitalogfireandtheorderwentouttoputitoutbutwhentheoldsergeantcomedownandthewarmthathefireandthewholeheapofwelloverahundredblokescrowdin’roundtogetwarm,hechangedhismind.

23:30 Sothecorporalsayssothecorporalanywaynextmornin’afterwe’dhadbreakfasthelinedusupandgaveusalessonincompassreading.“Nowthecontour’shere,yougoaroundthattheretothecontoursarethisthatandtheotherthing.”Andhesaid,“Nowwe’llgodownhere.Then,”hesaid,“we’llbearslightlyleftandthenstraightenoutandgobacktocamp,”andIlookedandIsaidtotheblokealongside

24:00 me,anotherbushie,“He’swrong,”andtheblokealongsidemesaid,“Ithinkheistoo,”andIwashesaid,“Anyquestions?”andIsaid,“Yes,corp[corporal].”Isaid,“You’rewrong.”Isaid,“Camp’soverthere.”“No,”hesaid,“I’vegotthe…,”andthenofcourseIdonethecruet[gotangry].“Nevermind

whatyagot.I’mfromthebushandIknowmedirections.Campisoverthere,”andIturnedtotheblokesandIsaid,“Who

24:30 reckonscamp’soverthere?”andtherewassevenofthemsaid,“Wedo,”andhesaid,“Yougothereyougetlost.”Isaid,“No,youwon’t.”“Allright,”hesays.Isaid,“Who’scomin’withme?”Justlikethat.Youknowjustasahadashotathimandhesays,“Allright,”hesays,“Awayyousego.Ifyouseifyougetlostwe’renotgonnacomefindyoutilltomorrow.”Sothatdoneme.“Comeonboys,”andaswestarted

25:00 offhesays,“WhenwegetwhenIgetbacktocamp,”hesaid,“You’reallunderarrest.”“Ohwell.”Soawaywewent.AnyhowIusedtoplaylockintherugbyunionfootballteamandourcaptain,JimmyMilner,hewasaintheteamhewasthebossoftheteamandacourseonlyweonlycaught’emthroughonparade.Otherthanthatwejust(UNCLEAR).SoIwentbackandIwentuptotheandsawhimandtoldhimwhat

25:30 thesetupwas.Wegottocamp,backtocampquicktime.So,“Oh,”hesaid.“they’llturnup.”Hesaid,“Ican’thelpyatillhecomesbackandIhearhissideathestory.”Soanywaywe’dhaddinner.Wehadteaandeighto’clockthatnighttherunnercomedownandhesaid,“Alan,you’rewanteduptheorderlyroom.”SoupIgoesand

26:00 Jim’sinthere.Hesays,“They’renotback.”Isaid,“No,apparentlynoone’scomein.”Hesays,“Comeoverhere,”andhehadthebigmaponthewall.Hesays,“Rightnowwherewereyouse?”SoItracedwherewewere.“Nowwheredoyathinkthey’dbe?”“Well,”Isaid,“theywerefollowin’thatcontourdownthere.Bearslightlyleftandthengostraightforward.”“So,”Isaid,“Couldbeanywhereinthatarea

26:30 but,”Isaid,“thatwasthismornin’.Sothistimeatnightlordknowswherethey’dbe.”So,“Righto,”hesaidtotherunner,“Righto.Iwantfourtrucks.Getthedriversuphereimmediately.”SohetookoffandIwenttogo.Hesaid,“Don’tyougo,”hesays,“You’recomin’.”SoIwaited.WhenthetruckturnedupandIwenttogetinthetruck,“No,”hesays,“Inthestaffcar.”Andacourseyougetachauffeurdrivenandhe’satthebackandI’msittin’alongsidethedriver

27:00 andawaywego.Wewentaboutsixoreightmile.Fairlydarkandheretheyaretrudgin’alongandwhenIsay‘trudgin’along’,theywere,Iwon’tsayit,they’vehadit.Sohesaidtome,“Youstopthere.”Sohegotoutand,“You’realongwayfromcamp,”orsomethin’likethatIcouldhearhimsay.Theywent,“Righto.”Hesaid,“Inthetrucks.”

27:30 Therewasoneholyscamperandtheboysgotintothetrucksandtheydrove’embacktocamp.Hesaid,“Righto,gotothecookhouse.”Hesaid,“Andhaveafeedandthenbeonparadeinthemorning.”Sonextmornin’onparadeeverythingwascheckedoff.Therosterwascheckedup.EveryonewasthereandtheoldsergeantbrokeusoffandIstoodthereandthe

28:00 matealongsideamehesays,“Aren’tyougoin’?”Isaid,“No.”Isaid,“officiallywe’reunderarrest.”Isaid,“Nogoodwalkin’awayfromit.Wegottatakeit.”SohestoodthereandJimMilnerlookedupandspottedus.Hegiveadirtygrinand,“Hello,somethin’sonhere.”Sohewentovertothecorporalandsaidsomethin’tohim.

28:30 Thenhecomeback.Hesays,“Youcango.”hesays,“Nochargesarebeinglaid,”andhadadirtygrinandhesaid,“Therewouldn’twantabe.”SothatwasoneofourepisodesinBathurst.

Andhowdidyougolearningtodriveatruck?

Ohnotroubleatall.Youthrewherintogearandletittakeitself.Imeanyoumadealotamistakesbutcoursetheoldsergeant’sandhe,“Don’tbenervous,son,”

29:00 andtheyblameditontonervessee.causeallusyoungfellas,wewereverynervous.Likehell,butyousoonlearnedwhattodo.They’remostlythreetonnersandtheywerefairlyeasyyouknow.

WeretheJapaneseinthewaratthisstage?

Nope.Theynevercomeintothewartillthe8thofDecember.

SofromBathurstwheredidyougo?

Wewentfrombytrainacrossthe

29:30 toWesternAustraliadowntoNorthamcamp.

Whatwasthejourneyonthetrainlike?

Crowded.WegottoAlburyandhadtochangetrainsbecausethedifferenceinthetracks[VictoriaandNewSouthWaleshaddifferentrailgaugesizes].WegotovertoGoodwoodsshowgroundinWesternAustralia,inSouthAustralia.Thenthatwasintheearlyhoursofthemornin’forbreakfast

30:00 andacoursearmydaystheyopenedthewetcanteen[canteenwithalcohol]there.Thelocalsweren’tallowedinbutneedlesstosaythelocalsgotin.Theyweren’tintheretoolongtherewasanallinbrawl.Sousualarmystunt,right,theyclosedthecanteenandbundledusontothetrainandwetookoffacrosstheNullarborPlains.Ican’trememberhowfarwewent,

30:30 butitwasafairway,andallofasuddenthetrainstoppedoutinthemiddleanowhereandthewordcomethrough,“Enginebrokendown,”andwithinminutestherewasAboriginescomin’upouttatheholesintheground.We’dhadtenoradozenAboriginesalongthetrain.Menandwomen,

31:00 kids.Anywaytheysaidwe’dbethereforatleastaday.TheyhadtosendbacktoAdelaideforsomepartfortheengine.Bitterlycold.Sotheusualstunt.Tryandgatherupalltherubbishyoucanandsetfiretogetwarm,whichwedid,andablokeoneofour

31:30 blokeswasarunnerandbeforethewarandhesohetookofftogetwarmrunnin’aroundthepaddock,notthepaddockbutthevacantareasandatthattimeIwassmokin’andIsomeonesaid,“RightoPopey,you’reasmoker,lightthat.”SoIlitthefireandwewereallroundandacourseasthefiregotgoin’otherscomeintoittooandtheywereallpickin’upbitsarubbishandstufftoburnandneedlesstosaywasn’t

32:00 longbeforeoneathesleeperscaughtfire.Theoldsergeantcomedownandwentcrookandthenthecaptaincomedownandstartedtogocrook.Hesays,“Getthatout.”Welltherewasnowatersowhatdoyouhadwehadtodo?Wellallhadtolineupandpiddleonit.That’showweputthesleeperout.Nocruet.That’showwe

32:30 hadtoallputoutthefires.Sheprobably,ohsheprobablyhearddidshe?PutthefireoutandanyhowJimsaid,“Wholitthatfire?”andacoursenoneofusagonnaadmitlightin’thefireandoneatheboyssaid,“Heysir,lookatHendorunnin’aroundthere,”andeverythingwasdroppedafterthat.AnywaywewentintoNorthamcamp

33:00 andwewerethereforIdunno,afortnightorthreeweeksorsomethin’,afortnightIthinkitwasandtookacoupleatripsoronespecialtripintoPerthtohavealetuslookroundthecapital.Itwasarainyday.Thetrooptrainloadedwithtroopscouldn’tgetoveroneatheranges.It’dgoupthenit’drunrightbackand(UNCLEAR)togetup.Hehadtoputsandonthetracks,whichthey’dhave

33:30 aplacefromtheresomewherewheretheydroppedsandinfrontathewheelsoffthesomecompartmentthere.Couldn’tdoit.Soweallhadtogetup,ormostofushadtogetoutathetrain,walkuptheletthetraingetupoverthetop.Thenwalkupthetraingetbackonit,uptherailwaylinesthengetbackonit.Sothatwasanepisodeintothere.Thenwordcomewewerewehadtoembark.Sowegotonthetrain

34:00 andwentfromdowntoFremantle.Secretserviceandyouthoughthalftheworldwasthere.SoanywaymetonourshipwaswhatwascalledtheSibberjackwasloaded,Dutchship,itmovedoutintheharbourabitandthenextlotwasinandloadedandjustafterdawntheygotallpreparedtosailandthentherewasahellofanoisewentoninourship.

34:30 Theyfoundapolicemaninfulluniformstillonit.Theboys’dgethimonforabeerthenightbeforeandhe’dgotfullandtookoff.SowehadtowaitthenwhiletheyferriedhimbacktoshoretobetookofftoSingapore.Moretimesunderthewaterthanoverthewateranditwasprettyroughandthesewerelikebobbycorks.AsIsay,welandedinSingaporeaboutthe7thor8thofAugust.

35:00 Whatwereconditionslikeontheship?

Wellit’sfairlycrowdedbutthenyouexpectthatinthearmy.Youknowcrowdedup.Wehadbunks,ohnotbunks,hammocksmostofusandacourseintheswayin’they’dswayandyou’dswayonewayandyou’dbumptheonealongsideayaandswaytheotherwayyou’dbumptheotherblokealongsideayaandthatsortathingbutallinallthere’soneortwobadfaultswefound.

35:30 Onewaseverythingwastastedofoil.Evenboiledeggstastedofall,oil,I’llgetitinaminute.There’sanotheroneforyatheladytoblockherearsifshewantsto.Wewenttothetoilets.NowIdon’tknowwhetheryouknowitornotbuttheDutchinthearmyblokesusedtocarryabottleround.Insteadofwipin’theirbacksidetheywashedit.Ontheirtoilet

36:00 therewasabuttonthere,youpressedthatandajetawaterusedtohityainthebackside.Anyhowtheywelinedup.Allofasuddentherewasamightyyell.Oneatheseblokeshadbeeninvestigatin’thesethings.Hepressedthatandwhenhecomebackhewastellin’us,“Becarefulofthatbuttonthat’sontherighthandsideupthefront.”Soafterthatwewereallrightyouknowbutallinallitwasn’ttoobad.

36:30 WenearlyhadamutinyatthewhenwelandedinSingapore.Whentheshipgotincoursegoingintothewharfthere’sonlyonesidegoestothewharfandweallcrowdedontothatsideandthewordwentround,“Movebackofftheside,”buteverybodywantedtohavealookatthisnewplacewe’regoin’toandthislieutenant,ayoungcitybloke,

37:00 wewereallthereandallofasuddenavoicesing,“ForGod’ssakedon’tdrawthat.They’llkillya,”andwelookedroundandacourseofficersworearevolveronthesideandhehadhishandonitandtheFirstWorldWardiggerhappenedtobestandin’justbehindhimandspotteditandweknewdamnwellifhe’dadrawnithehadnohopeagainstthewholelotofusyouknowbutanyhowtheyjustslowlygotusoffthesideandtheship

37:30 rightedkeelagainbutandyouknowitwasjustaplaceandsmell,itdidn’tactuallysmellitwashighpong.Oh,putrid.Theyhadplanksacrossthesebigcanalsandthecanals’dbewiderthanthisroom.

There’dbeplanksandwhentheymenandwomenwhentheywantedtodobusinesstheyjustpullinthemiddleatheplankandletitgo.Vegetablesandmeatandthatandthingswerejustthrowitintothecanal.

38:00 Alotofus.You’dgetsick.Wewalkeddownthestreetsyou’deitherhaveahandkerchieftoyournoseorandthatandmanyatimewevomitedyouknowbutthatthat’swhatitwasinthosedaysbuttheydidgetitcleanedupafterthewarandduringthewartheygotitcleanedupproperly.

Andasayoungboyfromthebushwhatwasitlikearrivinginthisexoticdestination?

Itwasfrighteningtobethetruth.You

38:30 didn’tknowyoudidn’tknowtheirlanguage.You,whatshallIsay?Everythingwassostrangethatyousaid,“OhIgottabecarefulhere,”andthat’swhatwewereandtheolderones,welltheyweremorestraightforward,knewtheirwaysaboutbutafewofusyoungeronesbandedtogetherandwestucktogether.

Andwhatdidyoudidyouhavefreetimethenor?

39:00 Yeah.WellwewereoutonSelangorRoadtheyhadthesetents.Wewentoutonthem.Weweren’tallowedtoleavethecamp.Ofcoursetherewasparadesandtrainingandthingslikethatandtheneverynowandagainthey’dallowacertainnumberofpeopletogototownbuttheytoldusalltosticktogetherandacourseovertheretheyhadthePommyredcaps[militarypolice]orthePommieswerethere,theEnglish,andtheredcapstheythoughttheyownedus

39:30 andtriedtoorderusaround.WellafewAustraliansjustdropped’emandthentold’emwhattodoandbitsafightsstartedregular.NearlyeverynighttherewasgoodfightsonwiththePommiesbutwetheysoongotusedtous.AsonePommysaid,“YoubloodyAustralians,you’rebloodymad.”Isaid,“WhyChoom?”Hesaid,“Youcalleachotherabastardandyoulaugh,”andIsaid,“We’llcallyouone.Whatwouldyoudo?”Hesaid,“We’dfight.”SoImeanthat’s

40:00 thewaytheywere.Youknowtheycouldn’tunderstandourfreeandeasyway.Anofficerwalkedpast,nomatterifthey’refiftyyardsawaythey’dsaluteandthingslikethat.Youknowitjusttheyweresoregimentalthatanofficerorhigheruptheywouldjuststandtoattentionastheywereabitofboardorsomethin’.Itdidn’tsuitus.Wejusttookitastheycome.Sothat’sall.Thatwasourattitudeandthat’swhattheyliked.Asofficer

40:30 wentpastifitwasonaparadeyoucalledhimaJimorLaurieorcasemaybeandhedidthesametoyou.He’dcallyabeyourfirstnameifhecouldthinkofitandthat’sthewaylifewentandIthinkthatstoodtheAustraliansinsteadwhenevertheyhadthingstodo.Theyusedtheirowninitiativeoffreeandeasymanner.Sobutallinallevery

Whatdidyouthinkofthelocals?

Wethoughttheywereabitweird.Queer.Couldn’t

41:00 makeouttheirattitudesandtheirlanguageandtheirdifferentgaitathewaytheywalkedandchantedandthingslikethatandallthebuildingswiththeirwashinghangingoutthewindowsonlongpoles.Theyusedtoputthelongpolesthey’dhang’emoutthewindowtodryandthingslikethat.Itwasallsostrange.Youknowtoourwayoflifebutthebiggestthingwaseverythingwassocrowded.Therewas,Iwon’tsaythousands,therewasmillionsofpeopleallthereandtheyallseemedtobeintheoneplace.So

41:30 butthat’sthewaythingswentyouknow.

Tape3

00:31 WhatsouvenirswhattrinketsorpersonalitemsdidyoupackfromhomewhenyouleftforSingapore?

What?

Personalitems?

Nextdoortonone.Theysuppliedmerazorsinthearmyandtheyappliedthis,thatandtheotherthingandtheysuppliedtheclothing.SoIjustIwentasIwas.

Andhowoftendidyouwritelettershomewhenyoufirst

01:00 arrived?

That’sahardoneformetoanswernow.TheIusedtowritealotalettershomebecauseIhadthehomeandtheandthenthegirlfriendandthingslikethat.SoII’dsaythatwelluntilactionstartedthere’dhardlybeaweekgoesIdidn’twriteatleastoneortwoletters.

Okay,andhowlongwereyouinthecityofSingaporefor

01:30 beforeyouwenttothetentcamp?

Aboutafortnight.

Andwhatdidyoudointhatfortnight?

Ohtraining.IwaswewastrainingandcheckinguponhowtogettothemainfooddepotsforsuppliesandwhenwegottothesehugedepotshowtoorwheretogotogetthestuffthatwewantedbecausetherewastheAustraliansandtherewasanEnglishand

02:00 thentherewastheIndiansandallthisthatallindifferentgroupsyouknowandyouandthat’swhereyouhadtogoandthedifferentroadsyouhadtotakeandthenwehadtogoandtakegooutandpracticeonconvoywork,howyoumakingsureyoudidn’tgettooclosetogetherincaseabombingraidsandthetruckshadtobeacertaindistanceaparteachtimewhenyou’redrivingsothatyoudidn’tinterferewiththecitylifebut

02:30 alsodidn’tgetcaughtupwiththeifonebombfellyoudidn’tgettwoorthreetrucksandthistypeathingyouknow.Soitwasalltakenupwithtrainingandthenapartfromthatsidewestillhadtodoourroutemarchestokeepourselvesfitandsothatwastookmostofourtime.Ittimedidn’tlagandyoudidguardduties.Matteroffactourfirstbigsupplywasonaguardduty.Overthere,therewassuch

03:00 thingsasfireflies.Idon’tknowifyou’veeverheardof’emorseen’emoranythingbutyou’veseenthepersondrawonacigaretteandseehowtheglowcomes.Wellofanighttimethatwouldjustresembleasomeonedrawingonacigarette.Fromoutanowherethisflarewouldcomeupandabloke,matteroffactheenlistedthesamedayasIdidinfactbutwasrightthrough,hewasonguarddutyandthisnight

03:30 wellintothenighttherewasaburstoffire.Theoldriflewentoffandofcourseeverybodyout,grabbedtheirrifles,allpreparedforactionandthenthewordcomeback,“Youcansettledown.Falsealarm.”SowefoundoutthatthislighthadapproachedandChoomsangouttohimthechallenge,“Halt,whogoes

04:00 there?”Noanswerandbythistimethefelladidn’tstopanditwasjustcomeoutandwentonyouknowandthenhesangoutthesecondtimeandnoanswer.Sohejustletafewshotsgoandtheoldsergeantpointedoutfireflies.Hesaid,“Look,there’soneoverthere,”andyouknowyou,asIsaid,thatwasourfirstbigscarewhatwasgoingon.So

04:30 needlesstosaywehedidn’tactuallygetintotroublebuttheytoldhimtobemorecarefulbutitwasagoodtraininglessonforusyouknow.Togetusoutabedquickinahurryandgetinreadyforaction.

AndatthisstagewhenyoufirstarrivedinSingaporewhatdidyouthinkoftheJapanese?

TheJapanese?That’sbeforetheywentintowar?WellIdunno.Ijustdidn’tI

05:00 justtreatedthemlikethesameasyou’dtreatanyoneelse.TherewashadbeentalkabouttheJapscomingintowarbuttherewasJapstherethatownedshopsandbusinessesinthereandwereckonedtheywereJapbecausetheyweredifferenttotheChineseandthingslikethatandwewereallwarnedtobeverycarefulandwefoundoutafterwards

05:30 theywere,theyweretherefifthcolumn.Theyweretheregettin’thelayofthelandandthingslikethat.Matteroffactsomeofourboysshotacoupleof’emthroughtrynagivesignals.Whenweactionwasontheyhadtreesloppedpointin’inthedirectionwherethecampwasandtheyhadthesuspicionsthatsomethin’wasonbecausetheywhentheycomebombin’overtheyknewwhereweweregoin’.Anyhowoneblokeoneofourblokesheardsomeonechoppin’onedayandwentdownandfoundthisblokeand

06:00 choppin’treesthatwentintoapointinthedirectionwhatwherewewere.Sohenabbedhimandbroughthimbackandneedlesstosayhedidn’twalkawaybutsee,that’sthesortathingthat’swhytheywentsoquicklythroughMalaya,becausetheykneweverybacktrailandeverythingabouttheplacebecausethey’dbeenplanningforyearstotakeSingaporeandMalaya

06:30 andthatwasohnameofabook.Ican’tIthinkitwastheJapaneseversionofTheFallofSingaporeIthinkorsomethin’likethatandthat’sthisbloketoldhowmanyyearsthey’dbeentrainedanddonespecialtripsinthereandworkedoutwhattheyweregoingtodo.

Soafteryoulefttothecityandwenttocampwhereyouwerelivingintents,whatwerethelivingconditionslike?

Inthetents?

07:00 Ohfairlygood.Mostlytherewasfourno,sixtoatentandyouhadbunksandwithwhatwouldyoucallropemeshstuff,anet,that’sallyoulaidyourablanketonthattoslept.Youdidn’tneedblanketsmuchandjustmoreunderthanupbecauseitwassohotandhumidoverthere

07:30 andsotheconditionwasprettygoodandtheyhadtheirowncook,wheretheirowncookhouseandmessandthingslikethatandalsothatfornextdoortonothin’,onlyafewcentsorpenceorcasemaybe,you’dhaveaservant.They’dcomeroundandthey’dcleanyourbootsandtheyneverweneverlet

’emtouchourriflesbutthey’dcleanyour

08:00 bootsorifyouwantedtothey’dtakeyourclothesawayandget’emcleanedandbring’embackandallthissortathinganddoourmoneychangeswiththeirs,Ican’tthinkwhatmoneytheywhattheycallit’stheonlything,thatnowthatitwasnextdoortonothin’youknowandsoweusedtolaybacklikelordsamanortypething.Yeah.

Andwhattrainingdidyoudowhenyouwerelivinginthetents?

Ohtheusualtraining.

08:30 We’dgooutandontrucksandtrainingthatwayandwewentonparadestogooutonroutemarchestokeepfitandthingslikethatbuttheymadesurethatyouwereneverleftidletoolong.Wedidguarddutiesandpracticeunarmedcombatandallsortsathingstokeepyafit.

09:00 Andwhatwereyoueating?

Ohgeez,usualarmyfood.Bakedbeanshadafavouriteplacewithmostofitandthingslikethatbutno,themealswerefairlygoodandyouhadyourturnat‘spudbarb’[potatoduty],asweusedtocallit,andyouhadtogoandpeelvegetablesofanighttimereadyforthenextdaysothecookdidn’thavetodothat.Hehadallhehadtodowasput’em

09:30 onandcook’emandthenyouhadthejobofeverydayofmakin’sureyourtruckwascleanandyoureventhoughitwasspotlessyoustillhadtogooveritandcleanitandtheoldsergeant’dwalkroundandrubafingeronittoseeifanydustonitandiftherewasyoudiditagain.Weusedtoreckonheusedtopickhandfulsofdusthimselfandpretenditwasoffthetruck,butstill.

Andwhatmechanicalmaintenancedidyoulearnforthetruck?

10:00 Ohweonlylearntthemovementsofwhattodoandranoutapetrolorasparkplugwentorandsomethin’wentinthedistributor.Nothin’Imeanthebiggeststuffwehadourownworkshops.EachASCcompanyhaditsownworkshopsandwhensomethin’swrongwiththetruck,didn’tsoundright,anditwentintheretoforcheckoverandevenwhenitwas

10:30 goin’allrightonceafortnightthattruckhadto,thisisbeforethewarstarted,hadtogoinandthey’drunoverit,checkitovertoseeitwasallright.Soneedlesstosaythatthenwehadnextdoortonomaintenancebutwelearnttheoddrudimentsathingsandhowtochangeatyreandstufflikethat.Ifwewereoutonatripandthetyrewentonusandallthatsortathing.

Andwhatdidyoudowithyourfreetime?

Well

11:00 therewasn’tsuchagreatlotathatbecauseyouafteryou’dhadteayouhadtobebackincampbyteno’clockifyouwentout.Ifyouwentintotown,sometimeswewerecouldgetabusintotownandthatbutwewerewarnednevertogoonyourown,alwaystohavesomeone,twoorthreeorfourayousewithyou.Themorethemerrierandsoyoudidn’thavesuchalotoffreetime.

11:30 Youhadto,alongsideofourcamptherewastheGhurkhasandwewerewarnednevertogothroughtheGhurkhacampofanighttimebutafewofusdidanduntilwegotascareandthenafterthatthey’dknowwhenyouwerecomin’home

12:00 andthey’dbetherereadywaitin’foryabutIrememberonenightablokebythenameofPopLeeandmeselfhadcomehomeabitundertheweather.“Ohwe’renotgonnawalkround.”Youhadtowalkfromthebusstopuparoundthepad,thecamptheircampandintoours.Sowecutthroughandnextthingyouknowthere’sahandwentupovermeshoulderandavoicesays,“AllrightAussie.”ImeanyounearlydirtiedyourpantswhenithappenedbutitwasaGhurkhaandhe’dfeel

12:30 your‘Australia’acrosstheshoulders.Youhad‘Australia’withametalAustraliaonthelapeland,“YourightAussie?”seeandthendaytimewe’dgettalkin’tothemtheyalongsidethefence.We’dgetoverthefenceandtalkandtheyknewwhattimewewereupthere.causethebuswehadtobeinbytownoutinintothecampattensoinbetweenhalfpastnineandtennearlyeverynight,Iwasn’t

13:00 goin’outeverynightandalotofothersdidn’teitherbuttheGhurkhas’dbewaitin’downnearthefencewherethebusstopwasandwhentheygotoffthebus,“ComeonAussie,throughhere,”andthey’dsaveusabigwalk.

Whataboutsmokinganddrinking?

Welltherewasnolimitonsmoking.Imeancigaretteswereplentiful.Drinkingyoudidnotdrinkinworkin’hours.

13:30 Youweren’tallowedtohavedrinkinthecamp.Sowhenyouwentintotownyouhadyourfewbeersorwhateveryouwantedtodrinkandbuttheonlytimeyoudidn’tsmokewasthemealtime,mealrooms,orparadesandthingslikethat.SoIhadbeensmokin’beforethewar,justtheoddcigarette,becausea

14:00 blokethatthefamilyknewinSydneyatFairfieldhecomeupthebushonholidays.He’dneverbeenin

thebushandheusedtosmoke.Hewasaboutfourorfiveyearsolderthanusandsohegotusbrothersontothecigarettes.TheothersallgotsickbutIdidn’tandIhadtheoddcigarettehereandtherebuttheotherstheydidn’tsmokeandthenofcourseintheDepressiondaysandwehadnomoney.Had

14:30 toworkourwayrabbitskinsandthingslikeandIrememberIwasonlyImustabeeneithernineorten,andtenI’dsaywhenonedayIDadandIweregoin’musterin’sheepandDadhadafunnywayaswearin’.He’dstartoff,“I’dswearmejumpedupnevercomedowndays,”andthenhe’dswearandhesaid,“Thisthisday,”andwe’reridin’alongand

15:00 Isaid,“What’swrongnow?”Hesaid,“Ileftmeso-and-sotobaccoathome,”andnotthinkin’Isays,“Ohnevermind.Havesomeamine,”andhewent,“whack,”andnearlyknockedmeoffthehorsebuthewasthatpleasedtogetasmokethathetookitandrolledacigaretteandgiveitbackandhesaid,“Howlongyoubeensmoking?”andIsaid,“OhsinceCyrilWestoncomeuphere.”“Doyousmokeatschool?”“No.”“Youdon’tsmokeinthehouse?”“Noway.”

15:30 Sothat’showIknowitweremustabeenwhileIwasnolaterthantencauseIleftschoolattheendwhenandturnedeleveninJanuaryandneverwentbacktoschoolbutinthearmywellIthoughtIusedtosmokefairlyheavy.

Howmanycigaretteswouldyousmokeaday?

Ohthat’sonlyawildguess.That’sonlyawildguess.You’dstartandyouwerebusymostatheday.You’dhaveasmoke

16:00 probablyyou’dhaveoneofamornin’andthenyou’dhaveonebeforeyouwentonparadeandyou’dhaveoneortwobeforeyouhaddinnerorafterdinnercasemaybeinthenighttime.OhIsupposeabouteightortenorsomethin’likethatadayanditwouldbeyouramostlythatI’dsmokeinonedaytherebutwhenIwastakenprisonerofwarwellwegotnotobaccobutyou’dpickupbuppers[cigarettebutts]androllthemup.You’dsmoketealeaves.You’dsmokedried

16:30 leaves.You’dsmokeanythingatall.Evenrolledcardboardtogetherandsmokebecauseitstayedyourhungerandwhenyouweresmokin’andthatitjuststayedyouryoudidn’tfeelsohungryandthenofcourseaprisonerofwaryouwerehungryallthetimetypeathing.Sothat’swhathappened.

SotellusaboutJapancomingintothewar.Howdidyouhearaboutit?

Wellthesergeantsandthat

17:00 yellin’out,“Everybodyactionstations,”andthenwecleanedupthecampandwentbackdowntoaplaceCoronationEstate,whichwasmarkedasourweknewthatweifthewarstartedthatwasourfirstactionstation.CoronationEstateataplacecalledKluangbutsofromtherewehadspiesandgoin’outandjustofftheretheyhadthisaerodrome.ItwasI’ditwasonlyasmalldrome[aerodrome]

17:30 butitdidn’tmattertotheJaps.TheycomealongandtheybombeditandthatwasourfirsttasteofIremembermeselfandacoupleaothersgettin’blownoverandwecouldn’tfindanyinjuriesandtheysaiditwastheoldsergeantsaid,“That’sallright.”Hesaid,“Yougotknockedoverbythebombblast.”SowhatitwasIdon’tknow.causeIsaidtohim,“Ohnoitmightn’tabeenthat.Itmightabeenjustpurescared.”Hesaid,“Uhuh.”Sothat’sallIknowaboutthat.I

And

18:00 whatwasgoingthroughyourmindwhenthatwhenyoufirst

Scaredashell.“Isthisit?”Sobutthat’sitandthenthat’sright,wewerestillthereonthe17thofJanuarycausethat’smetwentyfirstbirthdayandIrememberafewofushadbeendowntoTanglinBarracksandpickedupsuppliesand

18:30 comebackandtheoldsergeantsays,“Allright.”Hesaid,“Youwon’tbeneededtogoouttoso-and-so’lltaketheseout.”SomeselfandamatefromTasmania,hisbirthdaywasthesamedayalthoughhewasfouryearsolderthanme,andafewotherswegotontheonthegrog.Ourfuelusedtocomeinkerosene,what’scommonlycalledakerosenetin.Squaretinthatstoodaboutsohighlikethat

19:00 andwhenwewerethebombingstartedcomingdownonourtripsalotapeopleleftthehousesandtowns.Theywentandwe’dcomethroughandacoursethefirstthingwe’dgrabwaswiththegrogshopandwe’dgointhere.Ifanytherewaswineandbeerandrumandyounameitintheshopsandwe’djustconfiscatethatbecauseittheyweren’tcomin’backtoit.Sosomeonesuggested,“RightoPopey,”andtheywe’retippin’thiswine,beer

19:30 intheintothiskerosenetinandourpannikins[metaldrinkingvessels]wedownedthemandIwokeup,itwasdarkanyway,andIwokeuponthebackofatruckprettyhalffurrymouthedfromgotupinthetinagainandsomemoreandthenextthingIknowtheoldsergeant’spummellin’meandI’mandgoin’totownabout

20:00 itanddraggin’somethin’outamethroatandIstaggeredthroughandsaid,“What’swrongwithyou?”and,“Godmate,”hesaid,“You’renearlydead.”Hesaid,“You’regreen.”Isaid,“Ohgiveusanotherdrink.”Icanrememberhimsaying,“Noway,nomoreforyou.”Soanywaytheypouredsomethin’intome,Idon’tknowwhatitwas,butanyhowwhenIreallycomegoodandIstartedtofindoutwhatwas

wrongandhesays,“Youwerelucky,”hesaid,“Iwentdownthere.”Hesaid,“You’dabeen

20:30 dead,”andIsaid,“Why?”Hesaid,“Leadpoisoning.”Isaid,“Ohdon’tbesilly.”Hesaid,“Comeoverhere.”SoheshowedmethekerosenetinandalltheleadinginsidehadbeeneatenoffthesideandwhenIhadthatpannikinathatluckilyIdidIonlyhadthefewmouthfuls.IfI’dahadthefullissueanythingcouldhappenandIsaid,“Butwhatwastheydraggin’outamemouth?”andhesaid,“Wehadtouseastomachpumponyou,”hesaid,“togetitout.”Sodidn’tcure

21:00 mefromdrinkin’butthat’showIknowwhatitwasbutIwasn’ttheonlyone.Afewoftheotherswereabitonthewaywardsidetoobutsohesaid.“Righto,”hesays.“You’renotdrivin’today.You’realoader.”SoIhadtogooutandlumptheseheavysidesabeefandstufflikethataspunishment.

AndwhatwastheatmospherelikewithinyourcampaftertheJapaneseenteredthewar?

Ohwellbeforethat,goin’down

21:30 alsoonthatnextdayaftertheI’dbeenonthegrogtheydidarealbigraidontheairportandsomewiseguysangout,“HeyPopey,here’syourpresents.”TheyreckonedtheJapsweredroppin’presents[bombs]tomebutluckilynoneathemhadmenameonitsoIwasright.Nowwhatwaselseyousaid?

IaskedyouhowtheatmospherechangedafterJapanenteredthewar?

Youlostalotofya

22:00 jovialattitude.Allbecomeamoreseriousbusinessandyouweremorecarefulofwhatyoudidandhowyoudidit.IrememberonetruckItooktofromwherewewereuptothisplace,wellnotuptoaplacecalledGemastothe2/30thBattalionatjust

22:30 beforetheyputthebigambushoutthere.AblokenameaCol,Iwon’tgivehissurnameincasethisgetsoutsomewhere,hewasaspotterandheaspotterusedtostandonthebackathetruckandaplanecomeover,“bang,bang,bang,”ontoptowarnyou,thedriverbecausewiththetruckgoin’hecouldn’thearya.Sotherewas‘bang,bang,bang’aswewereapproachin’aplacecalledYongPeng

23:00 anditwasahumpbridgelikethatovertherailwayline.AnywayII’dbeentravellin’fairlyfastandIhadtogooverthisbridgeandIfoundacuttingintothescrubandIdivedintothatintothejungle.AnyhowtheallclearwentfromthisthegunontheYongPengbridgeandI

23:30 backedoutandnoCol.“Ohhell,whathappened?Don’ttellmehe’sfelloff.”SoIwentbackandIwentbackquiteawayandhere’sColtrudgin’alongtheroadandIsaid,“Whathappened?”Hesaid,“Ileft.”Hesays,“Iwasn’tgonnastoponthetruckwiththemaround.”Sohe,whileIwastravellin’prettyfasthemustaleftthetruckbutanywaythat’sthewaythingswere.Youknowyatookitandasitcomes.Anothertruckcomein,they’dbeenouttodelivergoodsoutnear

24:00 Muarwheretheygottheothershadgotcutoff,hadn’tgotcutoffatthattimeandwhentheycomebacktheyweregettin’thingsoffthetruckandoneblokesays,“Comeandhavealookatthis,”andinthebackwecarriedasparetinapetrolandaspareandatinawaterandjerrycansaswecalled’emandthroughthejerrycanawatertherewasabullethole.Sohesaid,“Iknew

24:30 nothin’aboutit.”Sohewasveryfortunate.Haditbeenabitfurtherforwardhemightacoppeditthroughthecabin.SoImeanthere’sthingsthathappenedandyoujusttook’em.Wellthenwordcomeforustogetout.TheJapshadbrokenthroughatMuar.Sowehadtoturnaroundandtheysaidtheyaskedmetheysaid,“Howfarhavewegotatakethetrucks?”andtheysaid,“Welljustkeepongoingtillwetellyoutostop,”andonthewaydownwe’drunintowoundedblokes

25:00 andputthemonthetrucksandstraysoldiersontheroadandtherewaswhentheygotcutoffeverymanforhimselftilltheygotoutatheambushandtookthembackandtheyfinishedupgoingrightacrossontotheisland,thecausewayontotheisland.Thatwastheirnextstop.

Whatsortofshapewerethemeninwhoyoupickedupalongtheway?

WellIcoulduseagoodadjectivebutI’llonlyjustsaytheywere

25:30 reallyhadit.Youknowthey’dbeenfendingforthemselvesandthejunglewasn’tjustordinarytrees.Therewasvinesandtheyhadtopushandshoveandcutyourwaythroughthemandbuttheywereallfairlydeterminedtokeephavin’anothergoat’emyouknowandthewoundedones,wellsomeof’emwereprettybadlywoundedandwejustlaidtheminthetruckandtheytook’emoffandsoyouknowitallseemedtobegoin’fairlywell.Whentheygotbackintheislandwelltheyhadtofindoutwheretheirunitswereandit

26:00 wassuchalotofturmoilandconfusionthatyouknowweactuallydidn’tknowwhatweweredoin’(UNCLEAR).SeeonelotwentacrosstheriveratMuar,likebelowMuarandcomeacrossthisvacantlotwithahutinitandtheylookedupandtheycouldseesomeAustraliansleaningagainstthe,sittingdownleaningbackagainst

26:30 thewallofthehut.Sotheythought,“Ohwellthey’reresting,”andtheycomeacrossthepaddockandtheyorthisvacantallotmentandtheareaandwhentheygotneartoittheJapswereinsideandthey

openedfireandtheyshot’emacrossthereandsothisistheandonlyoneoutathatlotgotinthere.causetheypiled’emalltogether,putpetroloverorsomethin’overandsetfireto’embutonebloke,hemustabeennearthebottomorsomethin’,

27:00 buthefinallygotout,prettybadlyburnt,buthereporteditalllateronthatjustwhatdidhappen.That’showweknewwhathappenedto’em.Sothat’sthewaythings…

Andwhenyouweredrivingthetruckwheredidyoucarryyourrifle?

Mostlyrightalongsideofus.Sobutitwastheonlyplaceyoucouldleaveit.

27:30 Imeanwhenthewarstartedveryseldomthebloke,yourloader,stoppedsayinthere.He’dbeonthetopoutthebackasaspotterandsohehadhisriflewithhimandsoyouitwasproppedagainsttheseatreadytograbitascasemaybe.Sodon’tknowwhat’dhappenifyouhadtouseit.

Sowhathappenednextforyou?

Wellwhenwegotbackontheislandintoanarea,

28:00 theycalledallusblokesoutthathadinfantrytrainingandputusintoariflecompanyandtheytookusintoanareawhichweweresupposedtoguardandprotectandwewerethereforquitesometimeandIforgethowmanydaysitwas,doesn’tmatter,inthatareaandthenthebombardmentstartedfromwhentheJaps(UNCLEAR)ontheisland

28:30 andabitashootingstartedandwordcomebacktousgroupthattofallbackandgoingbackthroughthejungleItrippedoverandIdon’tknowwhetherIknockedmeselfunconsciousorwhatbutIknowwhenIwokeupIwasorcometotypeathingIwasonaIwasvomitingandonthebacktowboardofa

29:00 truckandIsaidto,IpresumewasthedoctorIsaid,“WhatthehellamIdoin’here?”andhe,“Youjustliejustwait.You’regoin’tohospital.”Sohesangout,“Getthisbloketohospitalstraightaway.”SotheyputmeintoaonthebackofautilityandIwentstraightthroughtoahousethatwasIthinkitwasManorHouseorMansionHousefrommemorythatwasusin’ahospitalandthe

29:30 Australiannursestherewerethereandoneof’emsaidto,“Getinthere,”pointin’tothebathroom,“getinthereandstripoffbutdon’thaveashower.”SowhenIgotinthere,strippedoffIwasfilthy.SoIjumpedundertheshowerandturneditonandhardlygotitgoing.Nextminuteinshecomeandgrabbed’emanddraggedmeoutand,“Toldyounottohaveashower,”andIsaid,“I’mdirty.”“Nevermindaboutthat,”andbungedmeontoa

30:00 bedandnextminuteoutcomethecutthroatrazorandtheyshavedmefromthenavaltotheknees.Isaid,“What’sgoin’on?”“Youknow,you’llberight.Don’tworryaboutit,”andnextIknowIwokeupandI’minbedfeelin’prettysoreandsorryformeselfandthere’sablokestandin’therealongsidemeandweorderlyIpresumedhewasanorderlyandIsaid,“Wellwhatthehellhappened?”

30:30 Hesaid,“Son,”hesaid,“you’rehadavery,verybadappendix.Youburstgettin’itout.”Isaid,“Ohdon’tbesilly.”Hesaid,“Yeah,youwanttoyouhavealookwhenyougetup,”hesays,“Thescar’snotonyourstomach.”Hesaid,“It’sinthegroin,”hesaid,“Andabigscartoo.”Evennowit’saboutthatlongandhesaid,“You’lltakeiteasyafewdays.”Wellnotthatdaybutthenextdaytheshellcomethroughthe

31:00 topofthebuilding.Thenursescomeinanddraggedthemattressoffthefloorandjust,“bang,”ontothebed.ThentheorderliescomethroughandbundledusdownstairsandIwastakentothehospital,Ithinkit’sthemainoneAlexandriaHospitalandIwastherewhenthesurrenderwasgivenandIwasthere

31:30 forIthinkroundroughlythreeweeksafterwardsandtheyweren’tgametowewereIwaswalkin’aroundalotwellbeforethatbuttheydidn’tletusoutcausetheydidn’tknowwhattheJaps’ddo.

Justgoingbackatinybit,whenyouwereinthecamphowoftendidyouwash?

Whenyoucouldandthenitwasonlyalickandapromisebecauseyouhadnobathingmaterials.Youwerejustadish

32:00 awaterorabucketawateroraIsaydish,itwasabucketawatermorethananythingelseandtheonlywayyoucouldgetadecentwashwasjusttostripandtipitupoverthetopayourselfandthatsortathingbutyoujustdidn’talotof’emdidn’tjustdidn’thavetime.Youmadeyourhandsandfeet,handsandfeet,handsandfacewasthemainthingyoukeptwashedsoyoucouldforeatingandthat’sthethingandtherestofitwasjusttakin’itanychanceyougot.

Andatthatstagedidyousufferfrom

32:30 anyillnesses?

No.IwaspureasIthought.NeverhadapainbeforetillIwentdownwiththis.That’swhyIcouldn’tunderstand.causeIalwaysthoughtappendicitisyougotpains,achesandpainsandthingslikethatbeforehandbutthat’swhathappenedbutitdidmeagoodturnbecauseitgotmeoutoftheactionandquiteafewofourblokesgotkilledinthatareaandsomeof’emgotkilledonthetruckgettin’away.

33:00 Theymachinegunnedthetruckandblewthetruckupandsosomeoneguidedmeoutathatandeasy.

Andwhenyouwereinthehospital,theAlexandriaHospitalwhatdidyouknowabouttheprogressofthewar?

OnlyrumoursthatwerebroughtinandwherethenursesandSistersthereweredubiousoflettin’usoutwordcomethroughthattheJapshadgonethroughTanglinHospital.

33:30 Theymachinegunnedpatientsandnursesandthelot.ThoughIfoundoutyearsafter,matteroffactafterIcomehomeinfact,thattheIndianitwasactuallytheIndianhospitalandthewhentheIndiansgotsurroundedandtheypanickedandcomethrough,alotof’emracedintothehospitalandthrewthemselvesintobedandpulledblanketsandsheetsandthatoverthemselves

34:00 andthingslikethatandofcoursewhentheJapscomeintheyweretheycouldseewhathappenedandtheyjustmachinegunned’em.Wellanynursesandanythingintheroadandtheycoppeditaswell.Sothat’swhythesistersandthatattheAlexandriaHospitalwouldn’tletusoutuntiltheyknewwhatwasgonnahappenorfoundoutwhatwasgonnahappen.

Andtelluswhathappenedwhenyouleftthehospital.

Welltheythewouldcomeupwelltostartwith,whenthecapitulationwasontheyall

34:30 thosethathadammunitiontheywehadtogettheammunition,destroyit.Taketheleadout,emptythepowderoutandjustsortofscatteritaroundanddelousegrenadesandthingslikethatsotheJapscouldn’tusethemandthentheywordcomethroughthatwewereallwanteddownstairsandwewentdownandthere’saheapaJapguardsandsometrucksthereandwehadtobowandturntotheseguardsand

35:00 thosethatdidn’tdoitquickenoughgotabashin.’Sowethought,“Ohthisisgood,”butanyhowthere’soneblokecouldspeakabitofEnglishandhesaid,“Allonthetruck.”SowegotonthetrucksandwewentouttoaboutohIsupposeabouttwoorthreemile,kilometresthecasemaybeoutfromthecamp,Changi,andwewereputoutandtoldtowalkandwehadtowalkdownthroughthegateandlearntthelessonaftergettin’abashin’uptherethat

35:30 youJapyoubowedtoandwentthroughandImetoneatheblokesinthereandIsaidtohim,“Where’stheASCgroupcampmate?”andhesaid,“Godownthere.”HesaidandIthinkfrommemoryhesaid,“Housesthirtytwotothirtyeight.”Ithinkfrommemorybutanyway,wentdownthereandwhenIwalkedintheboysallgotabigsurprise.“Where’dyoucomefrom?You’redead.”I’dbeenreporteddead.SomeonesawmegodownandthoughtI

36:00 wasshotandtherewasnoreportforquitesometimeafterwards.That’slikeit’dbeohnearenoughtoamonthfromthetimethatIwentdowntoIwouldn’tbeprobably,yeahaboutthatandsoIhadtogothenuptotheorderlyroomwheretheorderlieskeptalltherecordstogetitallstraightenedoutandsoluckyformeI’mIdidn’tgethit.

36:30 Howmanyofyouwereonthetruckfromthehospitaltothecamp?

Ohthat’dbeawildguessnow.TherewasquiteafewbuttherewasIthinkinthelittlegroupthatgotoutthegatetherewasoheightortenIthink.SomegotoutsomeothergateandthingslikethatbutoutathemobIwasgotoutthisgateandsoIthinkfrommemorybutImeanIwouldthat’dbeonlyafairlywildguess.

Andatthisstagewereyouwellenoughtowalkeasily?

Ohyes.I’dbeenwellfor

37:00 ohatleastafortnightbeforehandbuttheywouldn’tletusdownstairsbecausetheydidn’tknowwhattheJapsandweregonnadotouswhenwegetoutthere.SoapparentlytheJapsknewweweretherebecausethey’dcometowithtruckstotakeusoutbackatthecamp.Soandthat’swhatIfoundoutafterwardslikeyearsafterwardswhathappenedatTanglinandthat’swhyIsurmisethesisterswouldn’tletusgetoutincasethesamethinghappenedtous.

Anddidthesistersremainatthehospital?

Begyourpardon?

37:30 Didthesistersstay…?

Theywere,theywerewhenIleftbuttheyweretheonesthatdidn’tgetawayontheboat.Therewassomeofthemnevergotawayontheboat.Seealotofthem,whenIsayalotbutafewofthemrefusedtogobuttherewasalotofEnglishnursesandsistersthereaswell.SothatafewoftheAustraliansrefusedtogoandtheygotcaughtupandtheywereluckybecausetheothersgotmachinegunnedandkilledatthebeach.Partalife.

38:00 Winsome,losesome.

SointhetriponthetrucktothegatesofChangididyoutalkmuchtoeachother?

Ohyeah,wewantedtofindoutwhatwewantedtofindoutwhatwashappening.Seeweweresortofisolatedandnothin’muchcomein,onlytherumoursandcomedownfromsomeathesistersandsome

atheorderliesandalotathemwereEnglishandMalayansandlordknowswhattheyweren’tandsoweweretrynatofindoutwhathappenedandalsothe

38:30 whatwasgoingtohappen.Youknowweyappedawayandwealotofuswerealldifferenttypesaunits,differentunits.Someathemhadbeenwoundedandthatsortathingandjustlikeinthecamp.WhenwewenttotheintotheChangicamp.Tostartoffwiththerewereandwhenyouweren’twantedforsomethin’you’dwanderdowntoanotherunitandsitandhaveatalkandIwentroundandfoundacoupleablokesfrommeownhometownwerethereandthingslikethatyouknowandso

39:00 itwasawayofkeepin’yourselfsaneifyouwantedtoputitthatway.

Andwhatdidyouthinkonthatwalkfromthetrucksintothecamp?Whatwereyourthoughts?

Wellthat’sanotherthingthat’shardtosay.Well,“Whatareweinfor?”YouknownotwhatIdon’tmeanin,but,“Whatareweupgonnaget?”Youknow,“What’sgonnahappen?”andyoutrytopuzzleoutandthere’sandwhatwhat’slikelytohappenandI

39:30 didn’tknowhowmanywastakenprisonerorwhatandthatsortathing.You’rethinkin’whoayouranyayourmateswerestillaliveorwhatwasdoin’youknowandbutthencauseit’swehurriedalong.Wedidn’ttakeustoolongtogetawayfromtheJapsandgetasmuchaswecouldandsoyouknowitwasallsuchandsuchwhatdoyoucallstrange,theatmosphereandall.

DidtheJapaneseaccompanyyoudowntothecamp?

Whatfromthat,fromthetruck

40:00 tothecamp?No,theyletusoff.Therewasnothin’youcoulddo.Itwasjustwideopenspaceallround.TheguardsweredownthereandthenwewerelostandanAustralianstoodoutlikeasorethumbtosotherewasjustoneathosethingsyoujustyouhadtodo.Youandatopathat,we’dbeenlockedupsomuchinhospitalthatwewerepleasedtogetinandseeandfindoutsomeayourmates,whotheywereandwheretheywere.

Andwhatwasthelandlikeinthecamponthatwalkin?

The

40:30 land?Ahtherewasnotbighillsbutfairlyrollingcountry.Therewasnowhatyoucallbighills,notfromtheareaIwasin,andsomeathehouseswerebuiltonthesidesaslopes.OffthegroundhereandonthegrounddowntherebutallthatareawasaPommyofficersandPommymilitarycampyouknowandtherewasallmadefromthey’dbeentherefor,Iwon’tsaycenturies,butyearsandyearsandyearsandhadeverythingthere.Itwasarealhomefromhometothem

41:00 andthentheygettransferredbacktoEnglandandthenanewlot’dcomeinandtakeoverandthatwasliketheir,youwouldn’tcall’embarracks.You’dcall’emthatwastheirhouses,theirhomes.Sothat’sthewaythingswent.

Weretheremanytrees?

Ohtherewasbuttheydidn’tintheareaIwasintherewasnobigcreeks.Youknowtheyweremorehollowsthancreeks.Youknowandthenwhenitrainedthereweretherewasafairbitawaterwentdownbuttherewasnothin’rushin’asfar

41:30 astorrentstuffyouknowbuttheyhadthePommiesalwayspickedthebestofthingstheycan.

Andwhatabouttreesandgrass?

Ontherewasalotatreesaroundandthegrassaroundwasalllikemadeoutrunoutintolawn.Thatusedtobelookedafterproperlyallroundyouknow.ThewholeareawasmoweddownandintheEnglishtimesanditwasallgrassandalotoftreesandpalmtreesand

42:00 othertypesatreesallovertheplace.

Tape4

00:31 Alan,fromwhatyousawofthefallofSingaporeinthatlastbitofconfusionhoworganisedwasthedefence?

Youmeanthealliesdefence?Badlyorganisedinthesensethattheyneverthoughttheywouldcomedownthemainland.Sotheypreparedfor

01:00 aseainvasionbuttheoneBritishofficerwhowasinchargeofthelotneversortofconfidedorwiththeotherheadsoftheotherarmiestypeathing.HewasthelordsupremesortathingbutIknowthatBennett[GeneralGordonBennett],whowasourgeneral,

01:30 hewhenthecapitulationhedidn’twanttocapitulate.HewantedtotaketheAustraliansandgobackthroughbutitisbeenreportedthatPercival[LieutenantGeneralE.A.Percival],whowastheotherBritishblokesays,“Iamthesupremecommanderhere.You’lldoasIsay,”andBennettwassupposedtohavesaid,“WellI’llescape.”Hesaid,“Ifyouescapebeforethethattimeyou’llbechargedwithtreason.”

02:00 SoBennettthenmadearrangementsbutheneverwentouttillafterthecapitulationtimebuttheycrucifiedhimwhenhegotbacktoAustraliabutitwasbadlyorganisedintheythoughttheBritishthought,“Ohwe’resupreme.Wecanwinanything.”

Andwhataboutfromyourlevelinariflecompanythere?Howwastheorganisation?

02:30 FairlygoodinitiallybutaswegotfurtherbackdownMalayaandthenintoontotheislanditgotwhatyoumightcallfairlyconfused.Therumours’dcomethrough,“TheJapsarecomin’throughhere.TheJapsarecomin’throughthere”

03:00 andthepositionwewhereMalayaisonlybein’anarrowneckaland,notneckalanditwasablockaland,thatwasquiteeasytowhat’stherightword?Quiteeasytogetinbehind’emyouknowandgetcutoff.Sowhentherumourcomethroughwewerecutofftheyfellbackand

03:30 theypassedwordthat,“So-and-sosfellback.”Saythe2/18thsayforargument’ssake.Thenthe20thhadtogobacktooeventhoughtheymightn’tafiredashotbecausetheywereinfairofthemgettin’cutoffbutfromallreportstherewasatheAustraliansdidtheirduty.Theydidtheirreallytoughfightingandbutjustwhenthingsgottoastagewhereyouthoughtyou’dadvancetheword’dcomefrom

04:00 todropback.SoweallandIgotnoauthorityIsupposetosayitright,theyblamedPercivalfornothavingenoughcontactwithallthedifferentleaders.Hemadethedecisionsandthatwasit.It’slikewhenweaskedafterwardswhydidtheycapitulatewith

04:30 fifteenthousandAustraliansplusaheapofBritishandDutchandMalayansandIndiansandtheysaid,“Ohwelltheydidn’twanttoupsettheSultanofJohor.”Withtheywouldn’tletushehadhisbigpalaceandweknewtheywereusin’thepoliceupthetopofthepalaceasa

05:00 lookoutforspottin’forbombingandartilleryfire,weweren’tallowedtofireonit.Wecouldseethelookoutbutyouweren’tallowedtofireonit.Imeanthingslikethat.HowtruetheyareIdon’tknowbuttheywerethatrifethatthere’sahadtobeacertainamountatruthinit.

Soafterenlistingandtrainingand

05:30 comingtoSingaporeyounowfoundyourselfacaptive.Howdidyoufeel?

BA,blinkin’awful,buttherewasnothin’youcoulddo.Justhadtotakeitasitcomesandjusttrytomakethebestofabadjob.

TellusaboutthoseearlydaysinChangi.Whatwastheroutine?

Welltheveryearlydays

06:00 wastocleanupandstraightenupalotofthehousesinthecampthathadbeenbombedandgetridatherubbishandthatfrom’em.Makingovensinoutsideovensinbigmoundsadirttotakecookthericeinbecausetheordinaryhouseovenswereandstoveswere

06:30 uselesstofeedthebigmobamenandthingslikethat.Holesfortheforlatrines.Therewasjustlatrineswerejustholesboredintheground.Yahadtotryandrigsomethin’upforthatanddidthattypeathingandageneralallroundmaintenanceoftrynakeepthingsgoingandthenwhenyougotthechanceyousneakofftosomeatheotherunitstoseewheresomeayourmateswere

07:00 becauseyougotandthatgoin’roundtothedifferentunitswithsuppliesyougottoknowalotablokesfromdifferentunitsandalsonearlyeveryunithadadifferentexperienceandyou’dlearnthedifferentexperienceandthey’dtalkaboutthedifferentonesfromthat.Others,likesomeoutathe2/18thand20ththeJapstookthembacktoMersingtoclearupthemine

07:30 fieldscausetheythoughtitwasbettertousetheAustraliansthangetcaughtthemselvesandthingslikethat.YouknowtherewastheJapsvery,veryseldomcomeintothecampitselfbutboytheywatchedthatperimeterverysmartlyyouknow.Wellthenlateronsomeofthemgotbraveenoughatnighttimetogooutandpinchstuffandstealstuff,mostlyfoodstuffsand

08:00 thentheydecidedthattheyhadacheaplabourforcesowehadtogototownandthey’dtakeusintruckstotownandsomeofus’dbecleanin’uprubbishfromthebombdebrisandothers’dbeunloadin’shipsandothers’dbeloadingshipsfromsomethingstufftheywanttosendbackandtoJapanandsodifferentthingslikethatandImeanwedidabita

08:30 sabotageandstufflikethat.Anyfoodandthatwepinchedwecouldandifyouwereluckyenoughtogetontheshipunloadin’,whetheryouwereontheshipitselforonthewharf,you’dmakeyourselfconfusedwiththeJapsignalscauseeverythinghadtobedoneinahurry.“Haku,haku,”andthey’dkeepyellin’out.Ifyadidn’thurryfastenoughyacoppedit.

09:00 Soifyou’reonthewinchtheJap’dbeonthesideandtellhimtowavin’tolowerthenetdown.Wellyouhadagoodideawhatwascoming.Anyfoodstuffsonit,thetinsespecially,youwaityougotreallytothegroundandthenyou’ddropitfastandalotofthecasesandeverythingbustopenandwhileitwasbustopen

09:30 alotofthemhe’sgatherin’upbutalotof’emhe’ssneakin’abithereandthereandallthattypeathingandoneblokegotridofacoupleofJaps.Hedroppedanetoffullofstuffon’emandgotridofthem.Anotherbloke,theywasonthewharfandthesignalcomethroughandheswungtheloadontothesideatheshipandjammedaJapbetweentheloadandtheside

10:00 atheshipandhedroppedintothewaterandbutyouknowthingslikethatwe’dwewerewhattheycallaGSjob,a,“getsquare,”youknow.

WerethemenwhokilledJapaneseinthatwaypunished?

Theycouldn’tproveit.Imeansomeathemgotbashin’buttheycouldn’tproveit.TheyusedtosaytheblokeupintheJapupinthetophe’swavin’andwhenthebossandthattheofficerscomeovertoinspectandcheckitwe’dpointtohim.

10:30 “Heythat’shaku,haku,”andletitgo.Imeanyoucopabashin’buttheycouldn’tproveitwasdeliberateandthissavedyoubutquitefrequentlytheJapthatwasgivin’thesignalshecoppedabashin’too.causetheyusedtobashoneanother,wellnotquiteasbadbutnearlyalmostasbadastheyusedtobashusbutthosetypeathingsyoujustyouknowtookasaroutinethingifyou

11:00 understandwhatImean.

Howdidyouhidewhatyou’dstolen?

Wellpeoplehaveajobtobelieveyoucanhidethingsonyourbodywhenyou’vegotnextdoortonoclothingbutyoucan.Weusedtodothatbutoneofourfavouriteonestheywouldsearchus,notwhenwewereleavin’thewharfbutweweregettingbackinto

11:30 notnearlyalwayswedidn’tgobackintoChangi.SomeofuswereinThompsonRoadandsomewasinHavelockRoadandsomewasinwe’dstopinthereforprobablyaweekorafortnightatatimeandthey’dsearchyabeforeyoureallygotintothecamp.Soweallhadtomarchbackandsometimesyourrowsweresixoreight.Soasyou’regoingalongsomeone’dsay,“Right?”

12:00 andyouknewsoonastheysaid,“Right,”thewordwasgoin’,“Who’sgotsomethin’?”Thenyou’dsignaltotheblokealongsideyouasthecasemaybethatyouhadsomethin’.Sotheideawas,ifyouwereinthisrowtheJapssearchedthatrowandthatway.Soyoucouldn’tpassthingsintheroworpassitforwardintherow.Theykeptaneyethatway

12:30 butsomeone’dcollapseandcourseyou’dallthatrowandpartathatrowandpartathatrow’dturnandpickhimupandyou’dputhimintherowthat’dbeensearchedandtheblokethatwasintherehe’dbebackinhereandstrangelyenoughtheyneverwokeuptoit.IthinkandonefunnyinstanceinChangi,thisdaywewereall,allourgroupanywaydownthere,theothersdidn’t,allourgroup

13:00 wehadonparadeonthisbigvacantareaandthenallofasuddenacarpulledupohprobablyfifty,eightyyardsawayandthisJapofficerstruttedup,swordswingin’andtheyputaboxdownforhimtostandon.Wethought,“Ohwhat’sgoin’onhere?”Thenhegotupandhegiveusalecture.“AllAustraliansarethieves”

13:30 andherattledonandrattledon.Thenhesays,“Ishowyouhowyoudoit.”ImeanIcan’ttakeoffhisaccentwithitright,andhegotofftheboxandheputapacketofcigarettesontheground.Tookoffhiscap,putitoverthecigarettes.Gotbackontheboxandpretendedtolookallaround.Walkedout,pickedthehatandthecigarettesup.

14:00 Putitonhishead.“Nocigarettes.”Everybodyneversaidaword.Hesaid,“Nomoredothat.Iknow.”Sohewalkedoffandgotintothehe’dbeeninthereforIsupposefifteenminutesIsuppose,mightbeabitmore.Gotovergotintothecarandheonlywentabouttwohundredyardsandthecarranoutapetrol.Whilehewasonwithussomeonesiphonedallthepetroloutofhiscar.

14:30 Soneedlesstosaythey’reallbutheknewitwasn’tussohedidn’tknowwhoitwas.Nootherblokeswerethere.Imeanthingslikethatthatjustshowedyouknow.Another,wellitwasseriousincident(UNCLEAR).TheytookusfromThompsonRoadintoaplacecalledBukitTimahwheretheybuildin’ashrinefortheJapfallensoldiers.Theycutthistopoffthisbitofahillandbigwidestepsohprobablyaswideasthisroomgoin’up,

15:00 concretesteps,andconcretepostsupthesideandallthisandthejobandthegangthatIwasinandourjobwasmakin’theseconcreteyouseetheseconcreteposts.Yousee’emroundtownmostplaces.Yougotthesewoodenframesandyaputtheconcreteinabitofforce,reinforcementinandthenbuilduptheconcrete.Stampedit.Leftitfortenminutes,didanothercouple.Thenbroke’emopen.Theywereyoudidn’ttouch’em,justlet’emsit

15:30 andyouwentonandyou’dbemakin’awholeheap,oneaftertheother.AnyhowthisdayadifferentJap

officertheonethatwasingotcalledintherehecomealongandthestepswaswerefairlysteepandalsoafairlotofthemandtheJapguardwasstandingagainstathesideandonethereandthere’sonefurtherdownandallthissortandneverletyoutoofarawayandhetookoffhisbeltwiththissword

16:00 onitandhungitonthepostandhesaidsomethin’totheJap,whichwouldbeohpossiblybitfurtherfromheretothegatewhereyoucomeintherewaywewereworkin’thenhehopupthesteps.Hewasthereforagoodwhile,ohhourmightbemorebutallofasuddenawhisperwentaroundthroughtheboys,

16:30 “Becarefulandwatchthisbutdonothin’wrong.”Sowethought,“Ohhellhereitcomes.”Sowejustpretendedtobeworkin’butsortoflookedupandhe’scomin’downthesteps.Nearlyalwayshadtoputonashowandactasthoughtheywerethebossessowethought,“Here’strouble.”See,comin’downandwegotourheadsdown,oureyesonhimandhewalksovertothisJapstandin’thereandnextminuteheletoutoneholyroar.

17:00 Soweallstraighteneduptoseeandhe’spointin’.Hisbelt’stherebutthere’snosword.SowhiletheJapguardthatwasguardin’ushewassupposedtobeapparentlysupposedtoguardtheswordandwhilehe’swatchin’ussomeonehadsneakedround,tooktheswordoutathescabbard,putitinontheasreinforcementinoneofthesecementthings.Wellwethoughtwewerecoppedsomebashin’sbutboydidhelashthispoorJap.Hejustabout

17:30 killedhim.Thenhewentdownthesehewentroundtoallusandwetalkedtousandwe’dbegoin’wewouldn’tspeak.Wewentlikethatjustasthough,“Weknownothin’aboutit,”youknow.causeyouknewifyouspokeyou’dgettroubleandhewentroundlookedatalltheseandtherewasheapsofthecementpostslaidroundandstackedroundreadytogouptop.Ifhe’dhadanysensehe’dawokeuptoohwelltherewastherewouldbequite

18:00 probablyinthefiftyorsixtynewfreshonesbeendoneinthetimehewasawayandthenheletoutanothermightyyellandbootedtheJapagainandawayhewent.Sowhenhewasgonesomeonesungout,“Whodidit?”Nooneadmittodoin’itcauseoncesomeoneadmittedithe’dbecomeitdidn’tbecomeasecretanymoreandthensomeonesangout,“Whathappenedtoit?”

18:30 Andsomeonesangout,“Don’tbeso-and-sosilly.Itmakesgoodreinforcement,”butthey’rethingsthatjusthappened.Anothernightoneofourblokes,ablokethenameofHootGibsonwascaughtwithafewotherspinchin’cementandIdon’tknowwhethertheJapsortheSikhswhodidtheraidbuthedivedunderthecartogetoutatheroadandtheybroughtanironbardownonhislegandbrokehisleg.Soforallthat

19:00 messin’aroundwegotmarchedbacktoChangiandthatwaseitherChristmasEveorChristmasDay1943.Sojustshowsyathatthat’spartathingsthatwentonandthatwaswe’donlybeenaprisonerofwaraboutwhat,tenmonthsthen.

Howdidthearmychainofcommandworkbetweenyouandyourofficersinwithinthecamp?

19:30 Welltostartoffwiththemaincommanderofthecampwasacolonelinchargeofthe2/30th.AFirstWorldWardiggerandhewantedofficers’respect.HewasoneofthefirstonesthatIstruckwhenIwentintocamp

20:00 andweonlyadayortwoaftergoin’inandofcoursewhenIwentintohospitalandoperatedonandthatIhadallmegearwasgone.Ihadno(UNCLEAR)nonothin’.SoIhadfullbeard,sittin’downfairlywellandhetookoneholyhellatmeandmademesaluteandthingslikethatandwantedtoknowwhatdoand,“You’reasoldier,”and,“Getthatoff.”Iwasverycocky.“Norazorsir”

20:30 andnextthingweknowthere’sarazorbladeswereissuedandyou’dhaveissuedoneandyounevergotissuedanotheronethroughyouknowandsoitfinallycomeoff.Itwasmorebloodandskincomeoffwithitthananythingelsebutotherthanthatmostofthoseweregood.Youcalled’embytheirfirstnameunlesstherewasabitofaparadeorabitofaninspectionorsomeofthehighpoweredonescomedownwantin’toinspect.Theyformedaconcert

21:00 partyinChangi.Therewasn’tabigareawhereyoucouldgo.Itwasoutintheopenairandtheyusedtohaveitinturnsfromdifferentgroupstogo.Soyouwouldn’toutcrowditbutoneofthefunniestsomeonehadknockedoffsomewomen’sclothingcausetherewasjustthingsgoin’aroundandtheyreckonedthey’dimpersonateawomanandgetthaton.Nowattheseconcertnights,

21:30 thefrontseatthereusedtobefourtosixJapssitonthefrontseatandthatwastheirposition.NotthesameJapsallthetimebutthisnightthisfemaleimpersonatororblokedressedupright,nameaJohnWoods,hecomeonthestagedressedasawoman.WelltheseJapsburstanunholyroar,jumpeduponthestageandwantedtoknowwherethewomancomefrom.

22:00 Sotheyexplainedtohim.Theywouldn’tbelievehim.Theymadehimstriprightthere.Couldn’tgobehindthescreenoranythingjuststoptheymadehimstripandthenofcoursetheyburstoutlaughin’.They’repointin’andpointin’.Itwasintheirlanguagewedidn’tknowwhattheyweresayin’butthey’repointin’tohimandthatsortathingbutyou’doughtaseentheroarwentupfromthecrowdwhentheJapsthoughttherewashadawomanincampandnotthatwasn’tallowed.

Whatwereyougettingtoeatatthisstage?

22:30 Mostlyjustwhatplainboiledriceandwe’dhaveleavesatrees,grassoranythingelsewecouldgettomix-upwithitandsometimessomeonewho’dgoneout’dgetsomethingandifitwasoneatheblokesyouknewwentoutandhehe’dcomealong,he’dgiveittosomebodyelseorgiveittoyouascasemaybebuttheydidn’twanttoomanygoin’outacampcausethewentoutacampthemorechanceofgettin’caughtand

23:00 theyhadinthereitwaswellIthinkitmostofitwassortofchainwireorsomethin’meshorsomethin’roundthere.Soyahadtobecarefulwhenyouwentout.Whenwegotintotownitwasaloteasiergettin’outbecausemostofyathecompoundswerewirefencesandtheywerestrainedprettytightbutwhatweusedtodoandgettwopiecesofboardaboutohabitoverafootlong

23:30 andputanickoneachendandthenget’emunderthewireontopofthatwireandunderthatoneandslowlymove’emupandyougotenoughroomforsomeonetocrawlthroughandifablokeinsidehe’dtake’emoffandhide’em.Ifyouweregoin’outonyourownyou’dput’emdown,getoutandhidethemoutsidetillyouwerecomin’backbutboyyouhadtobecareful.

Whatwereyougoingouttodo?

Ohpinchfoodstuffifyoucould.Ididn’t

24:00 getout.Pinchfoodstuff,tradewiththeChinesewatchersandthingslikethatbecauseyou’rehungryallthetimeandohIthinkit’sthesameasanypersonthatyoutell’emnottodosomethin’theydoitandjustbecausetheywerelockedupatthatcertainclassapersonwilltrytogetout.

Whatwouldthepunishmentbeiftheywerecaught?

Wellitistoldthat

24:30 severalgottheirheadsloppedoff.TheyweretakensomeofthemweretakenawayfromthecampandputintotheChangigaol,theactualprisonitselfandthingslikethat.Youknowbuttheexcusetheyusedwasthatwhenyouwereoutsidethefenceyouwereattemptin’toescape.Theywasn’t(UNCLEAR)aboutgettin’backin.Outanyoneoutthereandthatyouwereattemptin’toescape.

HowdidtheJapanesekeeptrackofthenumberswhoweregoinginandoutonworkdetailsandsoforth?

25:00 Wellthey’dcount’emoutofthecampandtheycounted’embackintocampandwhentheygotaroundtoitdifferenttimesdurin’thedaythey’dcount’emagain.Sothat’stheevenwhenwewenttoJapanthesamethingapplied.So,gettin’aheadofmestorybutwheningettin’marchedoutathefactorythereand

25:30 themobthatbroughtthismobablokestoworkhe’dcountthemoutthegatelikesheep.Thenthefactoryguardswellthey’dcountthatmobinandthatthat’stheroutinetheywentrightthrough.

Soyou’vegotboiledricetoeat.Anythingelse?Anyfish?Chicken?

Oddtimestheyformedafishingpartyandtheyusedtogodowntothe

26:00 seaanddragbitsanets.Theycouldn’tweren’tallowedtogotoofaroutandthey’dalsobuildstonewallsoutandleaveagapin’embutputaarmgoin’up.Sowhentheoceancomeinandwentoutit’dseepthroughthestonesbutanyfishgotinbehindthere’dstopthereand

26:30 thethey’dtaketheymighttakethreeorfourfromthatlotandthreeorfourfromthatlotandthey’dgotodifferentplacesandthat’showthey’dgetthefish.Theyalsousedtogoouttheretootobringbackbucketsofsalt.Theyusedtogetthesaltwaterandthenlightfiresdownatthebeachandboilitandboilitandboilitandthesaltwasdidn’tlooklikesalt.Didn’tittasted

27:00 likesaltbutitwasmostlyalldarkandthatsortathingandsothat’showwegotoursaltandthatusedtogowiththericeandyou’dgoalongandmostofthecookhousegotmostofitbutusindividualsthatwentondifferentthingswe’dgetthattoo.So

Whowasdoingthecooking?

Ohwealwaysnominatedsomeoneandoutofeachunitoreachhouseevendidthecooking.Ourownblokes.

27:30 SowegotoneblokewasaGreekthatwaswithusandhewascookingandthisisthethingandsometimesthey’dchangeoverandtheyhadtodolethericeoutandfirstofallthefirstbowlcomeoutwasputaside.Thatwastheirssothatnooneelsecouldturnaround,“Ohyou’vegotmorethanme,”youknow,whichwentonalot.Wherewhingin’becausetheywerehungryand

28:00 everylookin’anotherlookedadamnsightbiggerthanyoursyouknowandsomewasonbowlsanddishesandplatesdependingwhatyoucouldconfiscateandwhatyoukeptyouknow.Somestillhadtheirdixies[largeironpotsusedforcooking].Sothat’sthewayitwent.

Whatwastheaccommodationyouwerein?

Ohjustinthehousesandyoujusthadandyoulaidonthefloorandnobedsandyoulaidon

28:30 theblanketonthefloor,concretefloorbutoverthereitwassohotyoudidn’tneedIhadaredblanketI’dconfiscatedfromsomewhereandtheoneblanketandthatwasitbutyousortavirtuallysortasleptinyourclotheshalfthetime.So

Wereyoulockedup?

No,onlyinnotinthehousesbutonlyinthecamp.Theguardswereonthegatesallthetime

29:00 butyoucouldwanderroundalmostanywhereyoulikedinthebutiftheofficerswantedyouforsomethin’they’dhadsomethin’wasplannedoutandyouweren’tthereyouintroublebutwealltriedtogetintotownasmuchaspossiblewithachanceofpinchin’stuff.Soyouneverwenttoofarawayincaseaworkpartywasandsoonasaworkpartywasonyou’dnearlyeverybody’dnearlyvolunteerforittypeathingyouknow.

Whatwouldhappen

29:30 ifyouwerecaughtpinchingstuff?

Theusualthing.Terrificbashin’buteverytimetheneverytimeyouwentanywheretheyourwordwaspassedaround.TheygaveyouacaptowearwithasomeJapanesewritin’onitandtheyknew,evenifyouhadthewrongcapontheyknewwhohadthewrongcaponandsotheykeptanyonethatwasabadboytheyusedtocall’em,theykeptagoodeyeonthem.

30:00 Whenmenwerebeingbashedwasitjustwithfists?

No.Noway.They’dhavesticks.They’dhaveriflebuttsiftherewasatheguarddoin’it.Theyhadsticksasohabouttwoinchesthickmadeoutintoswordsandboytheyknewhowtouseherandtheydidn’tcarewheretheyhitya.Oneathefavouriteplaceswasacrossthekidneys

30:30 atthebackorinthegroinorifyouwerewoundedandtheyknewyouhadawound,that’sthefirstplacethey’dhit.Sadiststheywere,that’sit.

Andtheyalsodidthistotheirowntroops?

Yeahwelltheirowntroopsfromtherightdownfromtheofficerstothesergeants,thetwothethreestars,thefourthreestars,thetwototheoneandwhenyougottotheonestaryouhadnothin’tobash.

31:00 Sohehadtojusttakeitandtheypassitallthewaydownbutwhentheybashedthemtheyweren’tassevereaswhattheywaswithus,see,buttheydidgivethemquiteafewbashin’s.Matteroffactwecouldgetsomeonethatwasabitplayedupabitandwedidn’tlikehimwe’dtryandorganisehimtofallfoulofoneofthesergeantsandtheJapsergeantsandwe’dgetbackbutyoudaren’tsmilebecauseeverytimeyousmiled

31:30 orlaughedthey’dthinkyouwereridiculin’themandyou’dcopaandalsoifyougotcaught,twoorthreeofyousegotcaughtortwoorthreetogetherandyougotcaught,they’dbashyourmatesaswell.Thatwasawayofkeepingifyoudidn’twantthemtogetbashedyoudidn’tdowrong.

Ifaprisonerwasseriouslyhurtinoneofthesebashingswhatmedicalattentionwasavailable?

Only

32:00 whatyourowndoctor’ddobackatthecamp.Theyhadputtheirownhospitalinbuttherewasnextdoortonomedicine,ornonothin’todoitandthat’swhysomeofthemusedtogooutacampandtakefoodandpinchfoodandthattoandtakedowntothehospitals.They’dswaptheChinesecertainwatchersandthingslikethattotryandgethospitalmedicinesbecausetheJapsdidn’ttheydidn’tcare.Youwerejustnothin’.Youlivedordied.Didn’tmattertothem.

32:30 Howimportantwasmateship?

Wellyouknowwhat,workin’onaseriesfromonetoahundredpercent,welltheywerefivehundredpercent.Tomakeitifyoudidn’thaveoneortwoorthreematesyouwereinalotatrouble.Youwentdown,thosethatwentdowntheirmatesninetimesoutapicked’emup,pulled’emupandthatanditwas

33:00 soeasyfornotsomuchthecountryblokebecausehewereusedtobein’onhisownallrightandusedtothinkin’forhimselfbutalotofthecityonesortownoneswasadifference.Youknowthey,“Nevergetoutofhere.”Sothey’dgetinthedoldrums[depressed]butwhentheydidthatyouhadtotryandget’emquickbeforetheygotreallytoofardownyouknowbutthat’sIusedtoreadalotbeforethewarandI’vereadwherethey’dpointaboneattheAborigine

33:30 he’ddieinthreedaysandIneverbelievedthatbutinprisonerofwarcampI’veseenablokedieinlessthanaweek.Justgiveup.SoImeanthereissomethinginit.YoucanwillyourselftodieifyouwanttoIreckonnow.

Canyourememberyourmatesthatwerespecialtoyou?

Yeah.Ican.OneinTasmaniaatthepresenttime.Matteroffact

34:00 he’ssickinhospitalnotexpectedtocomeout.TommyCain.Hisbirthday’sthesamedayasmineandhe’sfouryearsolderandPopLeewasanotherone.HediedontheBurmarailwayandChumWoods.HediedontheBurmarailway.TheywentawayonFForce,ahHForceandIwasonG.ItriedtogetontothatforceandtheyandacourseonethingoncetheyJapknewyouwantedtogetonething

34:30 theywouldn’tletyoubecausetheyknewyouhadmatesthereandthentheywouldn’tletthemcomeontosotheydiedupthereandIwastheluckyonethatcomehome.WhenIsaylucky,IsomeoneguidedmeontoGForceandthroughafewtightcornersandI’vegottoputupwiththis.

Whatabouthygieneinthecampthere?

Wellwehadvery,verystrict

35:00 hygieneinbothinChangiwherewewereandalsoupinJapan,ourcampsinJapan.Inifaflycomeroundyougothim.Youwerenotallowedtoeatoranythingelseunlessmakesureyouwashedyourhandsorputitdifferently,notallowedtohandlefoodputitthatway,atleastyouhadyourhands

35:30 washedandifyoudidn’thaveyourhandswashedyougotawayoutatheroadandthingslikethat.Youknowtheywerevery,verystrict.Asthedoctorsaid,“Hygienedoneright’llgetyahome.Ifyougetadiseasewhathavewegot?”Nowalotofusgottinea,mostlyaroundthelegsorinremindmetotellyasomethin’elseaboutthat,aboutthetineabutanyway

36:00 whenwewentinthedoctorsays,“Wellifyougoononeofthefishpartiesandthatwalkintotheoceanuptoyourkneesandthesaltwater’lldoitgood.”WedidthatbutthentheJaps’dstartyellin’.OnceyougotaboveyourkneestheJaps’dyelledatthey’dthinkyouweregonnawalkin’awayfrom’embuttheoneI’mgonnatellya,anotheroneforyourladyfriendtoblockherearsornecessarybutohI’montheair,

36:30 wewereatacamp,HavelockRoadIthinkfrommemorynow,butalotofusgotarashinthegroin.Ohthatwaspainful.Anywaythedoctorshadmanufacturedaointment,brownointmentweusedtocallit.Nonameforit.Weaskedhimthenameandhesays,“Justcallitabrownointment,”andboy,whenyouputiton

37:00 youhadtobecarefulotherwiseyou’dbepickin’starsupandonyourwaydown.Anywayhedecidedthatthebestthingtodowastocurethatisthis.Nowinthecampandaboutohpossiblyroughlyspeakin’nowthirtyyardsthatwaytherewasaJapguardandaboutfiftyyardsuptherethere’sanotherJapguard.Thattheopeningwasupthereandtheopeningwasoverthere.Sothey’retwoplaces

37:30 theywereguardin’.Soweusedtolineup,goupthedoc.Hehadawoodenpat.He’ddipitintotheointment,you’dputyourhandoutlikethat.He’dwipeitonandbeforeyadidanythingelseyouhadtoliftthetesticlesandwipeitonandweallvowedthatwewouldn’tmakeanoisebecauseoftheJapswatchin’.Justtoyouknowwedidn’tletthemknowhowweakanAustralianis.

38:00 ThisJapuptherewasveryinterested.Hewasreallyontous.Anywayitwasn’tlongandhecomedownandasyou’relinin’upandI’mthedoctorhestoodthereandhe’seyein’itoff.Thedoclookedupandhesaidpointedtohimandhenoddedhishead.Thedocsaidandpointedforhimtostepinandpointedhimtoundohispants.So

38:30 didit,undidhispantsanddroppeditabitandthehandoutandthedocputitonandheputitunder.He’sgottherifleintheotherhand.Hegiveoneunholyyell,tookoffhalfwaybetweenthewherehewasandthewherehe’sguardin’.Hedroppedtherifle.There’satapthereandhethrewtheturnedthetapon,threwhimselfdownandunderitandhe’sgotthistappourwaterpourin’onit.We’reallpissin’oursideslaughin’.

39:00 Theguarduptherehecomerunnin’downyellin’.Hedidn’tcomerunnin’atus.HeruntotheJapoverthereandhehe’syellin’andtalkin’tohimandthenallofasuddenheputhisrifleagainstthewallandhe’sroarin’laughin’.SoanyhowfinallytheotherJapgotupandhesenthimtoandtheothertheonethathewasn’tgonnabeinitbutboywehadenoughtodousforweeks,thisJapandwhenwewentbacktocamp,Changi,andtold’emwhatthe

39:30 howeverybodywishedthey’dabeentheretogetsquarewiththis.Thedocthoughtitwasagreatjokeandhesaid,“Thatcuredhim.”

Sothereweretimeswhenyouhadalaugh.

Ohwemadealotofourownfuntowellyouhadtotryanddoit.Someone’dhaveacrockerydishorabottle,abottlethey’dcutoffandmadeintoamug.Accidentallybumpitanddropitandbreak.Noone’d

40:00 sympathise.We’dallroarlaughin.’Itwasafunnything.Imeanyouhadyoumadethatyoumadethatfunnythingtokeepyourselfgoin’youknowanditiswhatstoodtheAustraliansinstead.Itbacked’emupallthewaywiththattypeathingandyouknowitwasreallyallright.WhenIsayallrightIdon’tmeanthecampwasallrightbutthemateshipthatkeptthatthinggoin’andthat.Thenwegotahabitofcomin’outwithsomeyou’dsaysomethin’andsomebodyelse’s

40:30 they’relistenin’breakinwithsomethin’funnyaboutitandthengetthemoblaughin’youknow.

WasthereareactionfromtheJapaneseifyouiftheyfoundyoulaughing?

Ohyeahifyouiftheysawyoulaughin’theywerewayupthereandsawyoulaughin’you’dprobablycopabashin’butiftheywerehereanditwasamongstyourselvessometimesthey’dwakeupandveryfewofthemcouldspeakEnglishbutalsoamongthemwassomeAmericans.

41:00 They’dbeenbornandbredinAmerica.GonehometoJapantovisittheirrelativesandgotconscriptedintothearmycausethey’reJaponceaJapyou’realwaysaJapandyou’reinthearmyandthisiswhatitis.

Tape5

00:34 You’vetalkedaboutthegoodtimesandthemateshipbetweenpeople.Theremusthavealsobeenmenwhousedthesystemtotheiradvantageanddidn’tbehaveaswell.

WellIdon’tactuallyknowthenifwewereluckyornot

01:00 butnearlyallthemobthatIwaswithandthegrouptheywereallveryyouknowgood.Therewasnoargumentsandthingslikethatanditjustpatternedofffairlywell.IthinkI’mnotquitesure,Iwillsaythis.NaturallymostofusthatIwaswithwascountrypeopleandwejustweregangedtogetherandforsomeIsupposebondshipofbein’

01:30 inthecountryandtalkin’sheep,cattle,wheatoranythingelsethatkeepusoccupiedandthatsortathing.Whereastalkin’cityandfactoriesandthingslikedidn’tsortofohgoinwithusatall.SoImeanIcouldsaythatnowherealongthewholelineI’vethatI’veseenIhaveheardofothersthatyouknowdisagreementswithsomebodyelsebutIdon’twellthegroupthatIwasinisallIcanvouchforthattherewasnofisticuffs[fights]or

02:00 sometimeswegotohIsupposeangrywith’emtoacertainextentbutabitiratewithsomeathesethatdroppedtheirbundleandyouhadtogetatthemandsortofstartasemiargumentandgetthemintoitandonceyoubroughtthemintoitandgotthemontheirfeetandintheargumentandyou’dsay,“Welllookwhat’swrongwithya?You’renotsickatall.Getintoitandstopplayin’up.”Imeanitwasawayofbuildin’upbuttherewerenothin’serious

02:30 inthewholegroupandthat.Weallwokeupandsaidthat,“That’sthewaytogetthroughthisistodowhatwecanforeachother,”andsortofwhatshallIsay,helpeachotherifwecould.

Wereyouabletostayincontactwithhome?

No.TheyneverknewIwas

03:00 aprisonerofwar.Alltheygot,IfoundthisafterIgothome,atelegramtosay,“Missing.Believedkilledinaction.”Dad,MumneverbelieveditandDadsaid,“Wellithappens.Itcouldbe,”anditwasn’ttillsomesixmonthsafterweweretakenprisonerthatDadcomeinonedayandMumsaidtohim,andthisiswhereI’llprobablybreakup,

03:30 “Alan’snotdead.”AndDadsaid,“Oh,don’tbesilly,woman.Why?”Shesaid,“YoungJohn,”hewasonlyababywhenIwentawayshesaid,“Hewasonthetableintheotherroompokin’acrustabreadathim.Hesaid‘Alan’saprisonerofwar’,”andDadwouldn’tbelieveitbuthesaid,“Oh,”hesaid,“itcouldbebutthat,”hesaid.Anditwasn’ttillthewarfinished

04:00 andtheygotamessageoutinthebush,sortofasemitypeoflettersayin’notto,theyweren’t,didn’twanttobuilduphopesbutthisham[radio]stationsomewhereupinnorthernNewSouthWalesthey’dpickedupamessagetosaythataAlanPope,StuartTown,wassafeandwellandjustreleasedintheprisoner

04:30 ofwarcamp.AndwhenwetrackeditdownithadgonefromWesternAustraliatoallthestatesandnoonehadaStuartTownwithanythatnamebuttheywerespellin’itS-T-E-W-A-R-T.Theoneoutthere’sS-T-U-A-R-Tandnoonethoughttothenbutthisoneupinnorth,hehappenedtoknowofitandthat’showtheyknewthatIwasokay.

05:00 WhatdoyouthinkofthetelevisionseriesChangithatcameoutacoupleofyearsago?

Isthatsilenceenough?Thegreatestratbagshow,matteroffactformonthsInevereventurnedontotheABC[AustralianBroadcastingCorporation].Wewrotelettersandaboutitandthegreatestratbagshowthatshouldneverandsupposedtobeareasonableamountatruthputinto

05:30 thesethingsandthatwaswouldn’twishforanyworsethanthat.That’swhatIthinkofit.

Whatdidyouthinkwasinaccurateaboutit?

Ohwellmostofthewholething.Almostthewholething.Smokin’,livin’inmosquitonetting.Clothingthattheyhadon.Cigarettesmokes.AJapbashed’emandthey’reyellin’andscreamin’.YounevermadeasoundwhentheJapbashedthemoreyou

06:00 soundyoumadetheworseyougotit.Hegotsickandtiredafterafewgoodhitsthatifyoudidn’tmakeasoundhecouldn’thurtyaandthisisthesortofthingthatevennow,I’llonlyturntheABConfortheirnewsorifthere’saoutbackAustraliatalkin’likewhatdoyacall’emNorthernTerritoryPoliceorsomethin’thatandthatsortathingandtheyjustI

06:30 won’tturntheABConforanythingelse.Ohthat’sitshouldneverbeenallowed.

Whatsortofwhenyouwentontheworkingpartieswhatsortofhourswereyouworking?

Wellwhenyou’reinwhenChangigoin’workin’partiesintownyouworkedtillwellvirtuallyclosetoabitafterdaylighttilldarkbutwhentilltheJapsdecidedthey’dhadenough.Sometimesyoumight

07:00 onlyworkforhalfadayandthey’ddecidethey’dhadenoughandthey’dtakeyabacktocamp.AlotofthatdependedonthewhatIcallthegoodJapsandthebadJaps.Somewereintherebecausetheyhadto.Somewererealsadistsandothersweren’tquitesobadbutwhenwewentuptoJapanwewereworkin’sixteenhoursaday.

What

07:30 wasthedifferencebetweenagoodJapandabadJap?

Ohaboutalessthreebashin’saweek.Insteadagettin’theusualsixoreightyoumightonlygettwoorthree.MatterafactoneYank,wecalledhimYankbecausehewasanAmericanwentover,hesaidtous,“NowI’vegottabashyoucausethey’reonmetoo.”Sohesays,

08:00 “Ican’tpullmepunchesmuch,”hesays,“Theywakeuptoit,”andhesaid,“I’llgetabashin’,”buthesaid,“Youtryandridewithitbecause,”hesaid,“I’vegottahitya.”Imeanthat’sthesortablokehewasyouknowandwesaidtohimoneonthebackofatruckwe’regoingouttopickoutcementoneday,bagsacement,andsaidtohi,m,“What’sgonnahappenwhentheYankscomehere?What’sgonnahappen?Yougonnafightwithyourownmob?”

08:30 Hesaid,“BoyI’llberunnin’,”buthesaid,“Iwon’tberunnin’awayfromthem.”Hesaid,“I’llberunnin’straightupwithmebothhandsasfarintheairasIcanreach.”Thatwashisattitudeandthat’swhathetoldusthenhe’dgoneovertoJapantovisithisrelativesandthewarhadn’tbrokeoutthenandacoursehe’saJaphegotconscriptedintothearmyandeventhoughhecouldspeakEnglishandlikeAmericanandstufflikethatverywellandwasabusinessmaninAmericahehadtothenwork

09:00 hiswayupfromtheonestarupandthatsortofthingandbutyouknowImeantherewasafewofthemandthatbuttheyhadtobecarefulandbuthedidn’tbashusnearashardasornearasbrutalityI’llputitthiswayastheothersdid.

AndwhatcontactdidyouhavewiththeSingaporeanpeople?

None.Youdaren’tspeak.Iftheyevencaughtyalookin’

09:30 they’dbeonJaps’dberightonyouincaseyouweretryin’toarrangesomethin’.NoandI’mnottalkin’thoseblokesthatgotoutsidethewiresandthingslikethat.I’mjusttalkin’aboutjustourownlittlegroup.Therewasnonewiththeoutsidepeople.

AndhowdoyouthinktheAustralianscomparedtotheothernationalitiesofprisonersinthecamp?

Theywerefar

10:00 inexcess.Welostasmallerpercentage.Wewerealotcleaner,eventhePommiesboysomeofthemtheywerefilthysomeathemthemselvesandsomeatheircampswerejustfilthy.Ohwelltheyneverknewwhatitwastohaveabathorsomethin’likethat.SotheDutchwerenearlyasbad

10:30 andtheMalayansandJavanesewereworse.SobutIthinkalotofitwasourdoctorsandofficers.Wehad,ohIwon’tsayahundredpercentbutwehadatleastninetypercentrespectforourmainofficersandourdoctorssotheyneverstoodoveryou.Iftheywantedsomethin’theydiditinasortamantomanfashiontypeathingyouknow

11:00 andsoImeanthatstoodusinstead.Yetnonamesnopackdrillinthistoo,oneofourofficerswhenIcomeoutathehospitalandwentintothecamp,prisoncamp,theysaid,“Don’thaveanythingtodowithsuchandsuchlieutenant.”Isaid,“Why?”Hesaid,“Hedingoed[dingo–slangforcoward]it.”“Well,”Isaid,“We’reallscared,”butIknownothin’

11:30 moreaboutitsoIdroppedit.NowwhenwewereinonThompsonRoadbuildin’thecamp,buildin’aroadroundthroughthegolfcoursetoapartoftheshrinethere,oneofourgroupworkin’groupIdon’tknowwhathedid,neversaw,butnextminutethere’samightyyellandhe’sonthegroundandthethisJapofficerhadtheswordraisedandthisofficerthat’ssupposedtodingointhearmyraced

12:00 acrossandhemustagonearoundtwentyorthirtyyardsaway.Racedacross,threwhimselfontopofthisblokeandsaid,“You’vegottagothroughmetohithim,”andhere’stheJapwithhisswordupandhehelditthere.Thenheputitdown.causewewereallstandin’waitin’fortheshowandhesays,“Up.Up.”Theofficergotupand

12:30 theotherblokegotupandtheofficerwalksrightuptohimandhesays,“Youbraveman,”andhegotthebloke,“You.”Hewent‘whack,whack’acrosstheface.“Goon.”Theofficer,“Youbraveman.Go.”Nevertouchedtheofficer.Nowhere’ssomethin’thattaughtmealesson.There’speoplethat

13:00 saidhedingoedit.Nottohaveanythingtodowithhimandthereheis,hedoneonethebravestactsyou’dwishfor.SoIsaidandIstillremaineditallthroughmeyearsofwelfarelife,“Youdon’tjudgeabookbyitscover.”causeIdon’tthinkthere’dbeoneinamillion’ddoathinglikethatagain.

Whatprivilegesdidyourofficershaveoverthatyouother

13:30 ranksdidn’t?

WellasfarasIcanseeandfoundout,none.Theyatethesameaswedid.TheymightbebetteroffintheirclothingbecausetheywereinabettertypeofclothingthanwhatwasthearmyblokesdidbuttheyatethesameaswedidandsoIdon’tthinktheyhadanyvirtualprivilege.Althoughtheydidnotgoouton

14:00 workingpartiesanddidn’thavetogooutandworkbutthenthere’sproblematicalwhetherthatwasaprivilegeornotbecausewhenwewereoutonworkin’partiesthere’sgottabesomethin’wrongifyoucouldn’tpinchsomethin’toeatandsomeathetimesI’veoftenwonderedwhywedidn’tgetrealsickbecauseifwegotatinofsomethin’wereallygotintoitbecauseifyouhadamatewithyou,yougothalfbutifyouwereonyourownorsomewhereandyourmatemightonlybetwentyorthirtyyardsawayormightevenbeless,

14:30 therewastoodangeroustogetovernearhimyouwolfedintoityaasmuchasyoucouldyourself.That’stheonlywayyousurvived.

Whatsortoffood,stolenfood,didyoumostprize?

OhbeeforanythinglikethatandwithAmericanSpam[cannedmeat]andallthosethatbullybeefandoranythingatallthatwaseatable,eventinsoffruitandthat.Yougot

15:00 ’emandbusted’emopenandgotinto’emandsowhatwasfooditwasfood.

Whatsortofdiseaseswereaprobleminthecamp?

Allthosediseasesyoucouldtalkwerecausedbymalnutrition.Tineaandallthattypeathing.Dermatitis.Rashescomeoveryouanywhereandeverywhere

15:30 andyouknowyousomeathemarethatbadthey’djobtowalkaboutandanotheroneforthegirl,yourtesticlesquitefrequentlyswelleduptoaboutdamnnearthesizeoffootball.Ididn’tget’emthankgoodnessbutsomeatheboysdidandtheywerenicknamedthetypical,“riceballs,”butImeanno

16:00 I’mjustsayin’thesearethingsandthedoctorsaiditwasjustbecauseoflackofacertainamountofcertainstuffthatcaused’emtoswellupbutpellagraandalltheinsideayourmouth’dgetredrawandallthattypeathing.Soallthroughmalnutrition.That’swhyalotofusarestillsufferin’todaybecausethebodygotintosuchacondition.Arthritis,IhadarthritiswhenIcomeoutatheprisonerofwarcamp.

16:30 WhentheyputmeinConcord[repatriationhospital]thedoctor,DoctorGrant,saysgoin’throughwhatIhad.Thisthatandtheotherandthenhesaid,“Andarthritis.”Isaid,“Ohdon’tbesilly.”Hesaid,“Yesyouhave.”Hesaid,“Lookatyahands,”andhesaid,“That’scausedby,”hesaid,“inmyestimationacertainamountathefluidinthejointsandstufflikethateitherdryin’outordeterioratin’.”Anywayhesaid,“Easiestwayofputtin’it.”SoImeanthisisthewayitgoes.

Whatcouldbedoneformenthatweresuffering?

17:00 Inthecamp?

Yes.

Onlyjustnextdoortonothing.Justwhattheycoulddowithtreatment.Doctorsmadeupalotofointmentsandstufftheycouldmaketotryandhelpthemandthingslikethat.ImeanI’mnotgonnatalkabouttheBurmaRailwaybecauseIwasnotthereandalottheretheysufferedalotofulcersandthatfromthetropicalbumpsandthatthataregottabeattendedto

17:30 butIwasfortunatethatandmostofourblokes,eveninJapan,wedidn’tgetulcers.Youknowthateventhecutsandbruises.

Theconditionwiththeswollentesticles,wouldthateventuallygodownagain?

Ohthey’deventuallygodownbutitmighttakeweeksandmonths.Theyjusthadtoputupwithit.They’dgetaohiftheyhadgotacloththey’dget’emwrappedaround’emandtieduparoundyourneckandthattotaketheweightof’emor

18:00 abigpalmleafbananayouknowthebananapalmsandsortatie’eminandpush’eminandohthey’djobtowalkandwelltheyalmostcouldn’twalk.Youknowthatsortathingbutitwasjustoneathosethingsandlackavitaminsitcausedya.

Whatwashingfacilitieswerethereatthecamp?

Umwellwemadeshowersandmade’emandthat’sin

18:30 wellbothinChangiandJapan.WemadeshowersandthatfortheboystogointoandifyougotthechancelikewhenwewereontheshipgotoJapanabucketandalongropeoverintowaterandjusttippeditoveryourhead.

Andyourclothing?Howwasthatdeteriorating?

Halfthetimewehadnothin’andwe’dhavea

19:00 getatearabitaclothasmuchaswecouldandtieabitofropeorstringorsomethin’aroundyourwaistandthenletthecloththroughthebackofitandthenbringitthroughthefrontandthenwrapitoverthetop.Theold‘lap-lap’weusedtocallitandthat’swherewegotaroundmostly,especiallyinthetropicswegotaroundlikethat.Soalotofusthenwethought,“Ohwell,”wetriedtosave

19:30 ourtrousersorsomuchaspossibleifincasetheywedidgetreleasedandthingslikethatbutImeaneventhatstartedtowearoutintime.

Sunburnmusthavebeenanissue.

WellIwasburntprettyblackfromworkin’beforethewarintheandthatandthenthearmyandthenoverinSingaporeworkin’inthewehadashirtandthatand

20:00 someatheboysgotsunburntbutIluckilyformeIdidn’t.JustmainlybecauseIwasburntprettyblackinthebutit’dbeadifferenttalenowofcourseafterit’sallgoneoff.

SohowlongwereyouatChangifor?

FromtheIwentinthereaboutwhat,threeweeksaftercapitulationsothat’dbesayroughlyearlyMarch1942

20:30 tillAnzacDay1943whenwesailedorAnzacEvewegotontheshiponAnzacEveandthensailednextmornin’.SothatwasChangiandofcoursethentherewasworkpartiesinandoutatownandallthatsortaclobberyouknow.

WasChristmascelebratedthatyear?

Nodifferenttoanythingelse.WeknewitwasChristmas.ThensomeofthemstartedtosingsongsandthatsortathingbutImeandownattheconcertpartytheyputonsortofaChristmas

21:00 carolswhattheycoulddoandwhattheymakeupandthingslikethatbutthat’saboutalltheycoulddo.Itmeantnodifference.Noextrarice,noextrathis,noextrathat.

Whatroledidreligionplayforpeopleinthecamp?

Begyourpardon?

Whatsortofroledidreligionhaveamongsttheprisoners?

Ahreligionplayedareasonablyimportanttothefewofus.Theythey’dhavechurchservicewithallthedifferentdenominations.

21:30 Theydidn’tforceyatogobutquiteafewofuswenttoourdifferentdenominationswellassortofasoftenasyoucould.Imeanquitefrequentlytherewastheonlythingyou’dbeoutonaworkpartysomewherebutImeanitplayedaveryimportantpart.

Whataboutforyou?

Begyourpardon?

Andforyouparticularly?

Ithinkso.IwasaCatholicandalthoughIwasn’t

22:00 broughtuparealstrictCatholicbecauseweweretoofaroutinthebushforregularbutCatholicandIwasstillmuchthesamenow.Churchandprayersandcasemaybe.It’sitbecomespartayourlifeofwhatyou’rebroughtupasakiddieto.

Doyouthinkithelpedyouinyourcaptivity?

Ohyeah.Ohyoucanwellit’sabithard

22:30 somehowtoputitbutIthinkitit’sliketalkin’tosomebody.Ithinkthat’sitwasabigthinganditsortahardwaytoputitbuttillyousomethin’tolookuptoifyouunderstandwhatImeansoit’spartofit.

ThepopulationoftheChangiprisonwhatchangeswerethere?Theremusthavebeenmengoinginandout

23:00 Allthetime.Seetherewaspartieswentfromtherewastheofficers’forcethentherewasAForceandBrightdowntillIwentawayatGForce.HForceleftthedaybeforeustogotoBurmaandthentherewasforcesafterusbuttherewasthechangesaroundandthentherewasblokesthatwasinoneunitandtheywantedtoswaptoanotherbecausesomeatheirmateswerethere

23:30 andyou’dthey’dswapoverandthissortathingandbuttherewaschangesallthetimeandontopofthatthere’stheblokesgoingouttoworkingpartiessoImeanallinallyoudidn’tknowwhowastherehalfthedayandwhowasnotyouknow.

Howweretheseforcesdecidedupon?

WellthatIcouldneveractuallyfindoutbutallIknowisthatGForce,whenitwasformedour

24:00 captain,TedLongi,says,“SomanyASCblokeshavegottogoonGForce.NowI’vegottopick’em.Whowantstogowithwho?”Sohepickedoneandhe’dsay,“Anyayourmateswanttogo?”

24:30 “Wherearewegoin’?”“Wellthey’retalkingnowBorneo.”Welleverybodywantedtogobecauseitwasgettin’closertoAustraliabutanyhowhefinallypickedagroup.Iforget,IgotitsomewhereImeanASCbuttherewasabouttwentysevendifferentunitsinthetwohundredthatwentawaywithus.Soitwasoneofthosethings.TheofficersIdon’tknowwhetherthathappenedtheothercampsornot.Idon’tknow.

Howdiditfeelsayinggoodbyetoyourmates?

25:00 Wellgoin’toJapanfromChangiitwasnodifferentjustgoinginonaworkingpartybecauseImeantherewassomuchchangin’overeachdayyoudidn’tknowwhowashereandthey’dsay,“Ohyou’reinsuchandsuchaforce?”“Yeah.”“Ohgoodluck,”andthatsortathing.That’sallitwas.Sotherewasnoheartbreaksoranythinglikethat.Itwasjustpartathe

25:30 routineofarmylifebutandevenwhenwewentinweweretoldnevertomakegoodstrongmatesinthearmybecausemanyapersongetskilledgoin’backlookin’forhismateandthingslikethatbutwhenitbecomeaprisonerofwarcampitbecomeadifferentmatteraltogether.

Atthispointdidyoueverthinkyou’dgethome?

AlwaysthoughtI’dgethome.Ialwayshadmy

26:00 I’dgethomebutIusedtosay,“Theselittleyellowso-and-soswon’tgetmedown,”andmemateTommywasthesame.Soitwasthat’sthewayitis.Imeanwehadourscares.That’spartofit.

Wasthereeveratimethatyouwishedyou’dbeenkilledinsteadofbeingtakenprisoner?

26:30 No.ActuallyI’veIhavesaidandalotIthinkotherstoo.“OhGod,abloke’dbebetteroffgettin’killeddoin’this,”butnotmeaningit.ItwasjustapartofaconversationbecauseIdon’tcarewhereyougo,life’slifeandthat’sitandonceit’sgonethere’snocomin’back.Soit’s,althoughI’llcomebackthreetimes.

27:00 WhendidyoufindoutthatyouweregoingtobeleavingChangi?

Aboutaweekbefore.Theyformedstartedtoformthepartyupaboutaweekbeforeandsowehadnothin’topack.Justtheclotheswestoodinandablanket.Socampin’andgoin’waseasy.

And

27:30 wherewereyoutakento?

TakenuptoJapan.WethoughtweweregoingtoBorneobutweboardedtheshiponAnzacEve1943.Wenttoahnextmornin’wemovedoutveryearlyhoursofthemornin’justbreakin’day.Wemovedouttheharbour.Aconvoy,Idon’tknowhowcan’tremembernowhowmanyshipswereintheconvoy.Wewerebatteneddowntheholds.We

28:00 hadnotenoughroomtolaydownproperly.Wewasheadtofeet,headtofeetwastheonlywaywecouldlaydown,eventhenyouwereatightsqueezeandonlyallowedupohhalfadozentoadozenatatimetogotothetoiletandthefirstlotupcomebackandsays,“We’renotgoin’toBorneo.We’regoin’north,”andsomeofuscountryblokessaidtohim,“Wellyourso-and-socityblokeswouldn’tknowwhereyou’regoin’.”Sothenext

28:30 lotthatwentupandablokefromthecountrycomehesaid,“No,”hesaid,“We’reheadin’northallright.”Sowestartedtosurmiseandguesswhereweweregoin’to.Somesaid,“OhtoChina,”andthingslikethatandFormosaandPhilippineIslands,allthesethingscomeupandwefinishedupgoingtoJapan.Sowelandedthereinoh9thorIdon’tknowwhetheritwasthe9thor10thof

29:00 MayIthink.I’dhaveitonthatpaperthere.Iforgetnow.

Whatweretheconditionslikeontheshipdownthereinthehold?

LadiespresentIcan’ttellya.Noverybad.Theladderswerestraightupthehold.Almostahundredpercentweresufferin’fromdysenteryandyouhadtoclimbstraightupthisnarrowrungedladderandquitefrequently

29:30 youcouldn’tmakeit.Theonlytimeyougotawashifyougotthebucketandthrewitoverthesideandheavedabucketofseawaterupandtippeditoveryourself.Soandneedlesstosaywithtwohundredpeoplebatteneddowntherethingsgotabithigh.Oddtimestheythey’dletafewmoreupliketosatisfythatwasenoughandtheythey’dcutitoff

30:00 andwehadtopulledinatFormosaandhadtowaittherebecausetherewasasubmarinescare.ThenbetweenFormosaandJapanwehadtwoorthreescarestherefromsubmarines.TheshipstartedtozigzagaboutandtheJapsmadeusallgetdowntheholdsandbattentheholdsdownandweknewsomethin’wasonwithatheywereveryagitatedandpanicky.Youcouldn’tevenifyoudidn’t

30:30 dawdlealittlebityou’dcopitandanywaywefoundoutafterwardstherewasasub[submarine]scarebutwegotrightthroughandlandedataplacecalledMojiinJapan.Sofromtheretheygotusonthetrainandtookusthroughto,Idon’tknowhowlongittookbutIknowwewereacoupleanightsorsoonthetraingoingthroughtoOsakaorOsikkaastheycallit.

31:00 TheonlyfunnyinstanceIrememberonthatisthisnightitwasdark,sothat’swhyatnightthisJapcomethroughandhehandedthefirstblokehesaw,whichisanotheroneofmemates,SammySopher,livesinVictoria,abitofpaperwithallournameson.Hesaid,“YoufindouttheirjobinAustralia.”SoheSammysangout,“So-and-so.”

31:30 “What’stheirnamewhat’stheirnameinAustraliawhat’dyouinAustralia?”“Iwasabricklayer,”andhegotcalledthelistabitandthenhegottooneofthepartsthatwethoughtwewererealgood.BlokebythenameaLesHolt.“LesHolt.”Lessaid,“Yeah.”Hesaid,“WhatwasyourjobinAustralia?”Hesaid,“IcomefromCanberra,”andhesaid,“Iwasapublictoilettilelayer,”andavoicecomeroarin’out,“Thatmeanshe’sashithousetiler,”

32:00 andexcusemeforsayin’it.AnywaySammysangout,“Who?”Noitwasn’t,itwasKKK[KeithKingsfordSmith]goin’,“Whosaidthat?”andCharlieBennettsays,“Isaidit.”Imeanthat’soneathosefunnythingsthatcropupbutthewholecarriagejustsimplyroaredyouknowbutthenIthat’saboutIremembergoin’onaboutallthetrainbecausetheykeptthewindowsshutsowecouldn’tseewhereweweregoin’,whatweweredoin’andthingslikethat.

32:30 ThenfromOsakatheywenttheytookusintothiscamp,freshlymadecamp.Norunnin’water.Wehadtoputthaton.Thehutwasalonghutwithanalleywaydownthemiddle.Splitintofivebays.Eachbayhadanalleywayacross.Eachbayhad

33:00 alowerdeckeachsideathealleywayandanotheroneupthereandthefiveusedtosleeponeachineachbay.Sothatputtwentytoeachsideandthatgiveusthefivebaysforthehundred,ahtwohundredandohwashhousewasonthatsideandthetoiletwasalongtrenchslopin’towardsoneend.Boarded

33:30 overwithanoddseatputhereandthere.Moreorlessweremoreorlesslikeaholeinit.Notaseatjustyoujustsquattedoveritanddowntheeverythingusedtoflowdowntothebottomendandthey’dpickitupfromthereinthebasketsandtakeitouttoputontheirpaddyfieldsandonthegardensandcookhousewasacrossthatendanditseparate.Thewashhousewasonthatside.There

34:00 wastapsthereandmakeshiftbasinsbutnowateron.Sowehadtomakearrangementsforallthatbutluckilysomeofourblokeswereplumbersandthingslikethat.Theshowerwetheyhadn’tgotthatonandsoalltheyhadthengotapipeandputthroughoneathoseinchpipesandforthetimebein’weshoweredjustwiththewaterrunnin’outandouttheendandwe’dallstripandpushround

34:30 andshovetogetinitandwe’donlybeenthereafewdaysandwe’d,nowewentouttoworkthenextdayactuallyornextdaysoitmustabeenthenwhentheygottheplumbin’blokesstoppedtogetthosethings.Therestofuswentoutthistheworksandweracedintogetashowerandgetawashandthisafternoonlateweracedintogetawashandthewaterwasgoin’allovertheplace.Someonesaid,“Toleavetheso-and-sowateralone,”andlookedupandthepipe’s

35:00 goin’likethatandthisJapcomeracin’inand,“Allmenout.Jishin,jishin.”Wethought,“Whatthehell’s‘jishin’?”Weneverheardofit.“Allmenout.”Soweknewwhatthatmeant.Sowentoutandhere’sthebuildingslikethis.Theyhadanearthtremor,whichfrightenedthedickensoutofusbutwegotusedtothatandtherewasquiteafewwehadwhiletheyearsweretherebutwehadtowalkabouttwomiles

35:30 toworktothesteelworksorTyshosteelmanufacturingcompanybuttheOsakasteelworksandtheytheguards’dtakeusout.Countusintheguardcampguardahfactoryguards’dcountusinandthenthesamehappenedofanighttime.Theguardsgobackandcountusbackoutathereandyouknowandyouonlygotfedforthenumberof

36:00 peoplethatwentinthatgateandifyouweresickandcouldn’tgoyoudidn’tgetfedandmanyatimewehadtocarryblokestoworkandhalfprop’emupandlet’emworkandthingslikethatbutwe

managed.

WhatcontactdidyouhavewiththeJapanesecivilianpopulation?

Veryverylittle.Thethoseinthecamp

36:30 werenotallowedtotalktous,inthefactoryImean.Youdidnoonethecampnoonewasallowedtocomeanywherenearthecampgates.ThefirstcoupleadaysfromthecamptotheacoupleaJapanesewomenracedoutandtriedtogiveussomethin’toeatandtheysimplygotbashed.Theguardsbashedthemandwhenwegotinintothefactory

37:00 theordinaryworkerroundtherewasiftheywereseentalkin’toyayougotbashedandtheygotbashed.Theoddoccasionwaswhenyouhadtodosomethingandaworkmanhadtobetheretohelpyouoryouhadtohelptheworkmendosomethingandtheysplitusintogangsofeightandeachganghadadifferentonewereweldersandonewassplicin’ropesandtheeightofuswewere

37:30 keepin’therailtracksaroundthedocksandinthroughthefactoryingoodorderbecausethat’swhentheywheeledthestuffroundontrolleysandtheheavystufftheyhadlittlesmallmotortotakeitroundandourjobwastokeepthattrackinfitorderandwetoldthatiftheyhadanearthtremororearthquaketograbandlayonthelinebecausetheywereconnectedandtheywouldn’t

38:00 gobutwehadseveralprettysevereones.Onethatbadonedaythatthepropsthatholdtheshipinthedrydockafteritcomesin,thepropsbroke.Thewavessprungtheleakinthedrydockandtheseapouredin.Japswereworkin’insidetheshipandthatwerecomin’outoverthisplanks.Someofthemdidn’tmakeitand

38:30 crashedtothebottomoftheconcretefloorandgotkilledandinjured.Acoupledrowned.Yououghtaseenthemobaratscomeoutatheholdwhenthelightwasallletinandthingslikethat.Youknowandsoitwasbadbutthenwewerejustlaiddownandthebigtallchimneystacksyou’dsee’emreallywave.Threeandfourfeetatthetop.Howtheystoodupwe’llneverknowandthattypeathing.Sowehadour

39:00 littlebitsafunthere.AGermanshipcomeinatonestageforrepairandtheGermanswentofftheywenttheyhadfreerunofeverythingandI’mworkin’.LuckilyIwasworkin’downwherethegangplankisandIdivedinandinlookin’atcabintherewasapacketacigarettesthere.SoitwentinthepocketandcomeoutandlookedupandourJapguardwaslookin’uptheroad.Soand

39:30 outandhandedroundtosomeoftheboystotakecigarettesoutandhelookedroundandhespottedoneatheblokesandhecomedownandcoursewe’dallhiddenourcigaretteswe’dgrabbedoutofit.Hecomeround.Grabbedthepacketacigarettesandgiveourblokethathaditandhadacoupleasmacksacrosstheface.Wentupandout.Litacigaretteandwhilehewassmokin’anotherGerman,nottheonethatweseengoout,anotherGermancomeround

40:00 andhemustaspottedthepacketinthisJap’shandorpocketorsomethin’.Notpocket,wouldbeinhishandandhewalkeduptohim.Withouthesitationhewent,“whack,”anddroppedhim.AnyhowanotherJapcomerunnin’overandJapguardandtheGermantoldhimwhathedid,sohebootedintotheblokeontheground.TheGermancomebackpastusandhesaid,“That’sonesquarelittleblackso-and-so,”hesaid,see,andhestartedtotalkandhesaid,

40:30 “I’dbetternot,”hesaid,“Don’ttalktousyou’llgetwe’llgetahidin’.”“Oh,”hesohewentbackintherebutnooneeverknewthatIwastheonethatpinchedthecigarettesortheotherboysneverletonbutwhenwegotthechancewehadawe’dsneakasmoke.Onecigarette’ddoaboutyou’dhavetwoorthreedrawsandpassthenextone.Twoorthreedrawsandpassthenextonebutyoudidn’thangontooquickincasetheJapsspotteditandthenthatonehadithe’dcopitbut

Whatnationalitieswereinthiscampwithyou?

OurowncamponlyAustralians.

41:00 That’swehadourcampwithourAustralians.That’sit.Overacrosstheroad,KobeacrossthebayIshouldsay,andtheyhadEnglishandAustraliansandothernationalitiesinthatwerethatwerestraightacrossthebaybutinourswewereAustralians.

Tape6

00:31 Okay.Alancanyoutellusaboutthedoctorsinthecamps?

Begyourpardon?

Canyoutellusaboutthedoctorsinthecamps?

Aboutwhat?Idon’tknowmuchaboutthedoctorsinChangibecauseIwasn’tthereandnevergotbadenoughtohaveasoIcantellyouabouttheonesinJapanifyouwantnow.

Please.

Right,nowinwhenwefirstwenttoJapanwehad

01:00 nodoctor.TherewasjusttwohundredstraightAustralianblokes.Oneofthem,ablokenamedJimCarr.He’sdeadsoitwon’tmatter.Hewasourfirstaidintheirunit.Sotheymadehimthedoctor.ThentheygotaJapdoctor,calledhimself,“TheJapaneseNightingale,”andyouneversawanythingmorelikeaeagleorsomethin’likethatgettin’roundbutanyhowhewas

01:30 andeverythingwashisway.Youcouldn’ttalktohim.Couldn’ttellhimwhatanything.ThenwegotaDoctorAckroyd.Hecomedown,hewasprettysicklookin’whenhecomethere.WefoundafterwardsthathehadTB.ThenwefinallygotaDoctorSamStenning.NowSamwasthedoctorontheHMASPerthwhenitwassunkatSundaStraitsandhe’dbeenprisonerofwardifferentplacesandhefinallygottous

02:00 inOsakaandavery,verygooddoctorandhecoppedmanyabashin’becausehewastriedtokeepblokeshomefromworkthatweretoosicktogoandtheyusedtotakeitoutonhimandbashhimandJimmyCarrbuthewasvery,verygood.Ihadapersonalexperiencewithhim,actuallytwice,butthefirsttimewaswhenwewereupat

02:30 thelastcamp,Takefu,alumpformedonmebackside.Couldn’tmakeitout.SoIwenttohimandhesaid,“It’sgottabelancedandit’sgonnabesomefunlancingitbecause.”Hesaid,“We’vegotnomedicineandanythingtodowithitbutit’sgottabedone.”Soanywaytheygotthebloketoleanagainstthe

03:00 backagainstthewall.Iputmeheadinhisstomachandablokeeachsidearmshangin’ontome,holdin’meandtheotherhandwasbackontothecheeksofmebacksideholdin’itopenwhilehelancedit.Itdidhurtbutanywayafterwardsandgotoffallright.Drainedoutandwentdown.

03:30 SoIdunnowhetheritwasthetruthornotbutdaysafterwardsandIsaidtotheblokes,“GodI’dmustabeenlucky.Ididn’tknowthedoctorhadanythingliketolanceitwith,”andthisblokethatwasoneof’emthatwasholdin’mehesaid,“Hedidn’t.Itwasahacksawblade.”Nowwhetherthat’strueornotIwouldn’thaveaclueandIwouldn’tliketobackeitherwaybuthecouldabeenhavin’meonbuttheothertimewas

04:00 afterthewhatdoyoucall’emafterthebluewentupandthefinishedtheYankscomeoveranddroppedfoodandsuppliesoreverything.ThenthislonepilotwhowassupposedtobeaBritishfromallreportswhatIfoundoutafterwardhetriedtodropabundleaclothingandlikeallmadpilotshetriedtodropitthroughanopendoorway.Itdidn’thitthecornerathecompound

04:30 andIwasintheyardandafewothersintheyardtooandapieceatiletheysaidaboutthreeinchesbig,Idon’tknowIdon’tthinkIeversawit,hitmeontheheadandknockedmeunconscious.NextfirstthingIknowaboutitI’mlayin’inthelittleareatheycalledtheRAP[RegimentalAidPost]withitandhe’sworkin’onmeandhesays,“You’relucky.”Hesaid,“Quarterofaninchlower,”hesaid,“it’datakenyourscalp.”

05:00 Sothat’sallright.Theotherinstancewaswhentheydiddropfoodlater,noitwasearliersorry,theydroppedinfortyfourgallondrums.Theweldedtogetherinaparachute.Welltheydropped’emfirstofalltoolow.Theparachutesdidn’thavetimetoopenproperlybutsomeathemwerethatheavytheytheparachuteswereturnedinsideoutandquitefrequently

05:30 onedrumwasburiedalmostcompletelyintothedirtinthevacantpaddockalongsideofus.Onthequarterofthecompoundwhichwasabouteightinchsquareposts,ashivacomeacrossthatandwentacrossaboutohIsupposefifteen,twentyfeetandpiercedablokedon’tknowwhichkneenow,behindthekneeandthatsinewthat’srunsdownbehindtheknee,

06:00 cutitcompletelyinhalf.HisnamewasLenKeogh.Theyturnedroundthenandthedoctordealtwithhim.Wellthenitluckilyitwasn’tlongafterthat,onlyafewdayswhentheycomeroundcheckin’thecamps,thereleasecrowdmostlyYanksandtheytookhimstraightawayandIdunnohowsoonitwas

06:30 butIneversawhimforyearsafterwhenhewasflownandtheysaidflownstraighthome.Sohewaswhatyamightcalllucky.Anotherblokehadapiecetakenoutathecalfofhislegdownthereandtheyflewhimhome.Whentheygothimhometheyputcuttheskinofftheotherlegandput’emboth

07:00 togethertogetthefleshtobuildup.SotheexperiencethatIhadwithSamStenningwasyouknowhewasareallygooddoctorandagoodcaringdoctor.Sobuttherewasfive,four,fourStenningbrothersalldoctorsinMacquarieStreet.AfterthewarwhenIwasworkin’asaparkingpolicedownthereIwentalongoneday,theyputmeintoMacquarieStreetandIwentalongandIsaw,“Stenning.Thatname’sfamiliar.”ThenIsee,“SELStenning.”Thatwashis

07:30 initials.SoIwentdownacoupleastepsintowherehewasandIsaidtothegirl,“ThatDoctorStenning.”Isaid,“WasheonthePerth?”Shesaid,“OhIdunno,”andIsaid,“Washeaprisonerofwar?”Shesaid,“Idunno.”Shesaid,“Yougotanappointment?”Isaidandtherewasfouroldladiessittin’onaseatandIsaid,“No.”Isaid,”Ijustwannaknowifthat’sthebloke,”andthedooropened

08:00 andthisdoctorusheredthewomanoutandhelookedupandheseenme.“MrPope,”hesaid,“you’relateforyourappointment.Comestraightin.”WellyoucanjustimaginewhenIcomein.“Bang.”Yeah.

Tearsallroundbutthat’swhatI’mjustsayin’.Hewasareally,reallygooddoctorandfunnyenough,althoughhe’dbeenonthePerthandtheninthearmywithusandthingslikethat

08:30 whenhecomebackhewenttraining,Idunnoknowwhatyou’dknowwhattocallitIwouldn’t.It’dbenotobstetricsbutafterthebabywasbornanybabywithanydifficultieshewasthatdoctorthattookover.Soyou’dknowthenameforthat,Iwouldn’t.Sothat’smyexperiencewithhimandhewastheonethatcomerighthomewithustoAustralia.

Andwerethereinstanceswhenhecoulddonothingtohelp

09:00 aprisoner?

Begyourpardon?

WerethereanyinstanceswhenDoctorStenningcoulddonothingtohelpaprisoner?

NotupinJapan.Everyonewasattendedto.Luckytherewasnothingwhatyoucalldangerous,nothin’notdangerousthathappeneduptherebuttherewassomeinSingaporethattheyweretakin’tohospitalandtheyweresaidtherewasnohope.Youknowtherewasjustnothin’todobutIcan’tvouch

09:30 forthatbecauseIknewnothin’aboutit.

Andwhatweretheinstancesyousawofanimalinstinctstakingoverinthecamp?

Ofwhich?

Animalinstincts.

Notwithanyofourblokes.Theylookedaftereachotherrightfromthe5sectionrightdownto1sectionbutwiththeGerman,ahGermanswiththeJaps

10:00 theywereanimalsandthat’sallI’llsayfor’em.Theycrueltywiththat.I’veseen’emputtwocatsinabagandtiethebagandtakeitoutonthecarryitoutontheplayground,ontheparadegroundandthengooutputbayonetsontheirrifleandgoaroundtrynastabthecatswhilethey’rehoppin’aroundinanenclosedbag.Thingslikethat.Youknowtheywerecompletesadistsandvirtuallyyoumightcall’emalthoughIdon’tit’sadisgrace

10:30 tocall’ematrainedapesbutadisgracetotheapesbutthat’sallIcansayaboutthem.Ihavenotimefor’em.Somemaysay,“Doyouhate’em?”WellIhate’safunnywordandIdon’thatethem.I’vehadtotalkto’em.I’vehadtomeet’embutIgetawayfromitasquickasIcanandasfarawayasIcan.

Whatchangesdidyounoticeinyourownbodyinthetimethatyouwere

11:00 aprisonerofwar?

WellwhenIwentingoshI’mjoinin’realgood,usin’goodwords,Iwaswhatyoumightcallfightin’fit.Trained.WhenIwasreleasedinTakefutheboysfoundthescalesandthatwhatthereandweweighandIwassixstoneseven.SoIgiveyouanideaandIwasnotthe

11:30 thinnestbyanymeansandyou’llseeinthatbookGuysCrucifiedIshowedyoutherethismorning,somedrawingsofsomeoftheboysinthat.Theyhadyourribswereshowin’,youcouldplayitlikeapianoonyourribs.Theonlythingwasbigwasyourbellyanditwaspottedoutbecauseofthetheyusedtocall’ema,“ricebelly,”anditwasn’tohfood,

12:00 becausewewasonastarvationdietbutthereasonI’dsaythatisbecausewhenthefoodwasdroppedtoustherewasallsortsafooddroppedandthedoctorgaveandlinedusallupandgaveusalecturethatifwegetintoitandhogitwewouldbustourstomachbecauseonlyyourstomachonlygotusedtoasmallissueofrice.Soalleverythingwentintoastoreroomandhegave

12:30 alist,apaperwiththelistofallthenamesonandafewofusASCboysthat’sbeenworkin’inthesupplyinthearmywereputonthereandrelievedeverynowandagainbyothers.Itwasatinoflarge,tinoffruittotwotothreemen,dependingwhatthecircumstanceswere.Therewascakes.Thesizeofthecakedependedonhowmanymenyou’ddoandeverything.Youhadtojotdownthenameatheblokethatgot

13:00 itandthenamethatwasgonnashareitwithhim.Sotheycouldn’tonesendtheotheroneandthisandasIsay,allourboysweitwasnamedGForcebutwecalled’em,“Good,”becauseeveryoneof’emobeyedandknewwhatthesetupwasandtherewasnodissent.They’dcomebackandsay,“Ohdoyathinkourtime’supyet?”Wesaid,checkup,“No,I’msorrymateyoucan’tgetoneforanothertwentyminutesorso.”They’dgoawayoverthereandovertherebutyoucouldsee’em.They

13:30 youknewtheywerehungry.Theonlythingwewereallowedtogive’emfreelywascigarettes.Justpassedthemoutcausethatinthosedaysthatdidn’thurt.Nooneknewitwasgonnacausecanceroranythingelse.Justpassedyourcigarettes.MatteroffacttheYanksdroppedparachuteafterparachuteofcigarettes.Icomehomewithafullarmykitbagfulloftobaccoandcigarettes.

Youtalkedearliertodayabouthowcigarettesstopyoufeelingso

14:00 hungry.Whatelsedidyoudotodivertyourattentionfromhowhungryyoufelt?

Wellwhenyouwerestartin’tofeelrealpeckishandyou’dprobablygetaleaforatwigorsomethin’likeandchewitandthingslikethat.Somethin’totakeyourmindoffit.Nowsomething,you’retalkingabouthunger,nowsomethingI’veaskeddoctors,specialistsandnoonecouldtellmetheanswertoit.You’d

14:30 gotobedatnighttime.You’ddreamofhavin’abakeddinner.Notonlycouldyoutasteitbutyoucouldsmellit.Yettherewasnothin’anywherearoundtheareathatwasin’emandnoonecananswerthat.NotonlyIwasn’ttheonlyone.Therewasnearlyeveryonehadandthey’dcomeout,“OhIhadabeautifulfeedlastnight.”“Yeah,whatwasit?”Tellyaandtheblokesays,“Ohdamnit.Ihadsuchandsuch,”andthat.Youknowitwasonandyoucouldtasteitandyoucouldsmellit

15:00 andthat’ssomethin’justshowsyadocsaid,“Wellthatjustshowsyoujustyouthestateofstarvationyouwereinto,”andsoyou’reanurse,youmighthavetheanswer.NobutthisthesearethingsthatamazedI’mI’veoftencausewhenIcomehomeImadeprisonerofwarblokesmylife.WhenIwentintoConcordHospitalvirtuallytheonlytheRSL[ReturnedandServicesLeague]didcome

15:30 roundandtheRedCrossbuttheyweremoreonsortofofficialbusinessbuttheNewSouthWalesPrisonerofWarAssociationwasthereandtheyweretheretohelp.SoafterthatIwhenIcomeoutnotallowedtodoanyworkasthesayin’is,IlopedaroundandIjoinedtheparkingpoliceandalwaysworetwolittleribbonsbecauseallex-servicemenand

16:00 oneatheboyssaid,“Puttheribbonson.It’llsaveyougettin’afight,”andmanyatimethey’dsay,“Ohyouadigger?”“Yesmate,”andthey’deasedownandIsomeathemdiggerscomeupandthey’dbeintrouble.Nervousorsomethin’elselikethatandstarttalkin’.WellIusedtotake’emthenuptoGraceBuildings,whichwasinthecorneraYorkandKingStreetrepat[repatriation],“Comeon.Upyougo,”andI’dgivesaidtotheblokesatthecounter,“Canyouputthisbloke–helphim.He’sgotsuchandsuch.”“Yeahrightomate.Leavehimwithme.”I’dbein

16:30 fulluniformandthatstarteditoffandwhenIwenttoWollongongIwasjoinedtheRSLandmetalotaprisoners,theywasalwaysprisonerofwar,andwithoutexceptionI’dsayninetyninetoahundredpercentwerenervesandalotatheminavery,verybadway.

17:00 NowanywayIstartedgettin’ittogetherandtalkin’,thingslikethatandthenonedayIgotabrightidea.Irangtherepatriationdepartmentupandspoketoablokethereand,“Godmate,”hesays,“Leaveitwithme.”Hesaid,“WherecanIgetintouchwithya?”SoItoldhimwellwherethepolicestationwasandItoldhimroundaboutsuchandsuchatimeandI’dmakesureIwasinthepolicestation.

17:30 Sonextdayherangupandhesays,“Yes,”hesaid,“We’llsendyadownalotofpensionforms,”andIthought,“God,Iknownothin’aboutpensions.”SothisbundlecomedownandIstartedgoin’roundandfillin’formsoutandIknewnothin’aboutwordingsforIjustusedmeownwhatmeownlanguagesIusedtoputthingsin.Youknowanyoneelse?”“Yeahso-and-so,”andIfinishedupjustbeforeIleftWollongongIhadtwohundred

18:00 andeightyeightprisonerofwarblokesonmebooksandoutofthatI’dhaveatleasttwohundred,twohundredandfiftygotpensionsfor’emandalotof’emwouldthankmeforwhattheydid.Matteroffactsomesoonastheygotpensionssometheyjustretiredbecausetheyweretoosicktowork.ThenIstartedtohavegetittogetherhavereunionsandtoshowyouwhattheywerelike,

18:30 oneblokeIfoundoutwherehelivedandwentouttoseehim.DudleyWilkinson.He’sdeadnow,Iseeitinthepapertheotherday.Itold,“Ohno,”hesaid,“Iwon’tgotoareunion.”Isaid,“Why?”Hesaid,“They’llkillme,”andIsaid,“Killya?Whatdidyoudotogetkilledbyoneayourownblokes?”“Oh,”hesaid,“Iwasintheband.”Hesays,“Ihadtowiththebandhadtomarchthrougheachhutchandwake’emupfirstthinginthemornin’and,”hesaid,“Theyusedtoabuseusandtellus

19:00 ‘WhenwegetbacktoAustraliawe’llkillyou’,”andIsaid,“Ohdon’tbesilly.”Isaid,“AnyhowI’lltellya.Youcomealongtothereuniononsuchandsuchadate,”andIsaid,“Ifyou’renotsatisfiedI’llgiveyayourmoneybackandthenyoucangohome.”SoIknewwhatunithewasinandIwordedtwoorthreeotherunits.“Ohwethoughthewasdead.”SoIsaid,“Whenhecomesin.”Isaid.“I’llbringhimovertoyourtable.”

19:30 HeputhishandupandItookhimovertothetableandIsaid,“Knowanyathese?”and,“No,Idon’tknow’em,”andWallyScottjumpedup.Hesaid,“Dudleyyouoldso-and-so.Comehere,”andthentwoorthreeothersthatwereinthesameunit,wellallnightthetableupagainstthewalltalkin’andtheyhardlysatdown.Thatwasitandthat’swhatthereunionswerefor.

20:00 Youcouldheal,they’dunwindandgetitoutatheirsystem.WellthatwentonfortwoyearsandIusedtohaveitinOctober.Thensomeathewomencometome.“Whycan’twego?”Isays,“Well,youknowwhatmenareliketogether.”Theysaid,“YesbutIthinkwe’reentitledtoahaveagettogetherwithourhusbands’mates.”So,“Righto.”SoinJuneofeachyear,wintertime,

20:30 IorganisedamixedreunionattheIronworkers’Club,ahMasterBuildersClubIshouldsay,attheMastersBuildClub,BuildersClubinWollongongandamen’sreunionattheRSL.Wellyouneverheardthelikesinallyourlife.Itthat’sthewayitwasandIwhenIwastransferreduphereanotherbloketookoverandheranitforawhileandmatteroffacthegotawarded

21:00 theawardofOrderofAustraliamedalbutthat’sneitherhereortherebutthat’swhatitisandwhenIcomeuphereIdidthesameuphere.TheyusedtorunreunionsuphereandIjoinedinwith’emanditfinishedupIgotthetheywereonlymen’sreunionsthensoIsaid,“Whynotamixedreunion?”“Ohyoucan’thavethat.”AnyhowIfinallygottoitandIgotthewomeninontothereunion.

21:30 Theyneverlookedbackbecausethewivesusedtomake’emgoandthenIretiredin1981,noitwas1983IthinkitwasorsomethingIthinkitwas1982,1983IwentfromuptoBrisbaneforareunion.IKathandIusedtogotoalotofreunions.IwentupthereandonourwaybackIwentroundthroughaplacecalledCementMills.It’sabetweenWarwickandInglewood

22:00 andtheoldsergeantandtheonethatthemainstayandthebackboneagettin’usoutathecamp,KeithKingsfordSmithwashisnamebutwenicknamedhimKKKbutitgotshortenedtoCadyandhewasproudofit.AnywayIsaidtohim,“Now,”Isays,“I’vebeenroundmostAustraliaandfoundoutwhereallourblokeslive.”Isays,“Alotof’emdeadbutwhydidn’tyoucomedowntotheBrisbanetothereunion?”

22:30 andhesays,“OhIwouldn’tknowanyofmymobnow,”buthesaid,“I’dwalkbarefootfromheretoBrisbanetoseesomeatheGForceblokesagain,”andIsaid,“Wellthat’sveryunlikelytodothat,”youknow.Hethoughtforawhileandhesaid,“Nowlook,youfoundoutmostof’emwheretheyare.Whataboutrunnin’areunion?”Isaid,“Ohnotmemate.”Isays,“Icouldn’tdoit.They’realloverAustralia.”AnyhowIcomehomeandafewmonthsafterIwas

23:00 sittin’thereonedayand,oronenightactuallyandKathsaid,“Nowthat’dbeagoodideawouldn’tit?”Isaid,“Whatareyatalkin’about?”Shesaid,“Gettin’theboystogether.”Isaid,“How?”“Well,”shesaid,“YougottheTamworthreunioncomin’upandinaboutfourmonths.Whydon’tyoucheckoffandseewhatwhethertheycanhelpya?”Isaid,“Whatdoyamean?”andshesaid,“Wellyoushouldbeabletoreserve

23:30 anareaforyourselves.”SoanywayIwentinandsawthepresidentandaskedhimaboutitandhesaid,“Ohwellallmeans.”Sowesatdownandwrotelettersandsent’emoutandIthink1987,it’sonthattableanyway,wehadourfirstreunionandboytheynearlyfloodedtheplaceoutandIdidn’tmeanbythenumberthere,I

24:00 meanbythecryin’,thetears.Theshirtmyshirtwaswetandohwebooked’eminatthemoteldownhereandeverybodyhadagoodtimeandthesomeathemnevermissedeveryreunionIhadfromeveryyearfromthenonuntil2002whenIcrackedupandmematecrackedup.Theonlytwothatwererunnin’’emandsincethenwehaven’tbeenhavin’embutIstillwriteto’emandquiteafewof’emandgetanswersbackbut

24:30 tomeIstilldon’tknowI’veoftenpuzzledwhydidIpickitouttogoandalmostroundAustraliaandpickouttheseblokesthatIwerewithyouknow.Noonehaseverdoneitandtheyweren’tallASCunits,likemymates.Theyweretwentysevendifferentunitsinasojustoneathosethingsthathappeninlife.

25:00 I’mgonnatakeyoubackabitnowtoOsaka.Canyoudescribetomethemorning?Whowokeyouupeachmorning?

TheJapsslammin’thedoorsandyellinouttogetupandthatwasaboutfouro’clockeverymornin’.Theynevermissedandyouhadashortpieceofcloth,aboutIsupposeitwasabouteighteenincheslongroughlyspeakin’

25:30 andyouhadtogetup,standdowninalineallroundthebayslikethatandthenyouhadtogetitandrubtheclothacrossyourbackandacrossyourstomach.That’ssupposedtostartthecirculationgoin’forthedayandthatwentoneverymornin’.Sometimesthey’dbeearly.Itdependedonwhatguardwaslikeandtheyandtheydoitandthenafterthatwasdonethey’dgoaroundandthey’dcountya.Makesurenooneescapeddurin’thenight.Thingslikethis.Anewguardanew

26:00 guard’dcomeondurin’themidaboutmidnight,abitafter,andthey’dcalleverybodyouttocount’emincasethetherewassomeescapedfromthepreviousguard.Sothat’sthewaythingswent.

Whatdidyousleepin?

Theyhadonthesebaystheyhadstrawpackeddownandmattingoverthetopofitmadeoutofstraw.Idon’tknowwhatnameyou’dcallitbutitwasayouknowthose

26:30 ordinarymatstrawmatsyouseeontheground.Wellthatwasalltackedinoverthetopofthisstrawanditwasohabouttwoandahalf,threeinchesthick,andthatthensummertimewehadtwoblanketsandwintertimetheygaveusacouplemorebutitwasstillnotbecausetherewassnowthereattimesandtheonlywayyoucouldgetwarmwastofoldtheblanketsoverthetopandcrawlandthencrawlinbetweenandyouhaveaboutfourflapsunderyouandaboutfourflapsaboveyou.Somethin’likethat.So

27:00 andyousleptinallyourclothes.Soitdidn’tmakeanydifference.

Andwhatwouldhappenafteryou’dgotyourcirculationgoing?Whatdidyoudotheneachmorning?

Ohwellyougotyourselfdressedandwashedanddressedandthenyouhadyourbreakfastandthenstraightouttowork.

Whatwasbreakfast?

Abowlarice.There’snosetmenu,nochangeofmenu.Itwasjustabowlofrice.

Howbigwasthebowlofrice?

27:30 Ohjustabouttheordinarybowllikethat.Justthatwasjustaboutthesizeofitanditwasneverfull.Soitwasmightyoumightsayaboutacupofcookedrice.

Didityoueatwithyourfingers?

Wellsomeatewiththeirfingers.Somehadspoonsthey’dkeptwiththem.Somemanufacturedbitsaspoonswhentheygotthechanceoutofthefactory.Bitsatinbentupinto

28:00 spoonshapetodoit.Alotofmakeshiftstuff.Youhadyourdrinkin’materialwasnineoutoftenwasbottlescutoffwithabitahotwireandthensmoothedallroundthetoptotakethesharpedgesoffandthatwasayourcupthecasemaybe.Somestillhadourdixie.Someofusstillhadourdixies.So

Andhowdidyougetfromthecamptothefactory?

28:30 Walked.Marched.TwoIthoughtitwastwomileIdon’tknowbutsomeonesaid,“Idon’tknowwhetheritwastwomileortwokilometres,”butitwastwomileasfarasIwasconcerned.Thosethatweresick,nowork,noeat.Sotheycountedthefoodwasallsuppliedbythefactory.Sotheycountedyouinthegateandwhatwentinthegategotfedandsomeofthemtheywerethatsicktheycouldn’tgotowork.We’dwesortofsemicarried’emtoworktoget’emtowork.

29:00 Theguardsdidn’tmind,theyweregettin’themoutathecampandtheyhadtokeeptheirsideofitupandsothat’swhathappened.

Whatwasthecountrysidelikethatyouwalkedthrougheachday?

Ohmostofitwasfairlyclosesettledwithhousesandthatandoddmarketgardenhereandthere,theoddoneaboutbutitwasmostlyreasonablylevelandtherewasacanal

29:30 wehadtocrossacrossinthebargeandoneofouroralotofnicknameswehadforouronewecalledtheWalrus.Fatstomachyblokeoldupinyears.Hadabigdroopin’moustache.Hewasabowerbird.Heusedtopickanybitsastring,bitsofwireanythinghe’dpickupandputinhispocketsandhehadafavouritesayin’whenhewantedtotormentus,“KingGeorgiecry.KingGeorgiecry.”courseitwasKingGeorgeonthethroneatthetime

30:00 andhe’dseeusallontotheboatontothelaunchthepuntandbeonthereandthenhe’dpushhiswaythroughandbeatthefronttogetoffandcheckusoffincaseofanyof’emwentin.Tryaswemightforyearswetriedtodumphimintothecanal.Anywayonedayitdidhappenandhecomeupjustasyouseeawalruscomeout.EverytimeIseeitontheTV,

30:30 asealoranythingcomeupoutofthewaterthereIsay,“There’sthebloodyWalrus.”Youknowyouhejustcomeupandtherewaswaterdrippin’offhimandalotofthosecanalstheyweren’trealcleaneither,see,butotherthanthateverythingwentofftamely.Therewasafewgoodinstancesthatatthecamp.Oneathefirstfunnyones,theysplitusallintoeight.Groupsofeight,differentgangs.Somewelders,somefitters,someonthemouldsandsome

31:00 jackhammers.Iwasontherailwaylinesgoin’roundthedocksandthegangthatIwason.Anyhowweweren’tworkin’verylongandsomeatheboysdecidedtheywantabreak.Sotheydecidedtheywantedtogotothetoiletandacourseyouhadtogototheguard,bowandsay,“Benjoickidickimuss.”Thatwas,“Benjo”,“Ifyouplease,”youknowandhe’syou’dgoin.Nowtheyhadalotawomen,Japwomen,workin’

31:30 roundtheplaceofallagesandtheyworethesewejustcalled’empantaloons.Bigpuffedoutpantsthattaperedoffintonarrowedrightdownneartheankles.Ourboyswereinthereandtheyweren’tinthereverylongandnextminutetheycomeoutfulltrotandtheJapguard’sroarin’laughin’andwecouldn’tmakeoutwhatitwasallover.Afewthatdidn’tgo,threeorfourofusdidn’tgoin.

32:00 “There’swomencomeinthere,”butapparentlywomengotothetoilet.Welltheyjuststepback,dropthe(UNCLEAR),backuptoit,pull’emupandoutandacoursetheydidthatalongsomeofoursblokesandourblokesweren’tusedtothatandtheyoutquick.Thatwasoneoftheincidents.Anotherinstancetherewas,Ithoughtwasfunnyatthetimeoneguard,nottheonethatwaslookin’afterusbutanotherguardusedtowanderround

32:30 checkin’thatanytroublesandthingslikethat.Ohhehadafunnynameandwecouldn’tpronouncehalftheirnamesbuttheAustralianwordfordangerwas,“Redlight.”Sowhenhecomewe,“Redlight,”andit’dpassallroundthewayhewasheadin’tomakesure.Onedayhecomeup,“Meredlight,meredlight.”Heknewwecouldn’tpronounce,“Meredlight,”andwethoughthethoughtthatwasthenameandthiswentonages.Couldbetwelvemonths,couldbemore

33:00 andthisdayhecomeroundthecornerandthewordpasseddown.Helinedusallupandboyweallfinishedonthegroundflat.Says,“What’sthedickensgoeson?”andhewaiteduntilwegotupandhesays,“Menoredlight.Meunderstandwhatyousay.Menoredlight.Theytellmeredlightdanger.”Theysaidsomeonehadtoldandwestillcouldn’tfindoutwhetheroneatheEnglishspeakin’Japstoldhimoroneofourownboysthatinanotherunit,anothergroupopenedhisbigmouthyouknow.We

33:30 triedtofindoutwhoitwasbutcouldn’tfindout.

Didthathappenoften?Didboysinothergroupsopentheirmouth?

OhwehadsomeathemgetsabitwhatshallIsay?IftheycantalkgetaJapspeakin’theEnglishorwanttospeakEnglishitwasawayofgettin’himinterestedandstoppin’himfromworkin’.Youknowyou’djustgetaspellfromworkin’butmostofthemwerevery,verygood.Theyneveropenedtheirmouthonthingslikethatbutthat’showwethinkitwasanEnglishspeakin’Japbut

34:00 anotherfunnyinstancehappenedwithmethistime.AGermanshipcomeinforsomerepairinthedrydockandgotitinallproppedupandthewaterdrainedoutandcourseyou’reworkin’alongonthelinesrunnin’downalongsidethedockprobablyonlythree,fourfeetofftheedgeathedockandwhenIgotdownIwasnearthegang

34:30 plankwheretheygointotheship.SoIglancedround,couldn’tseeanyoneandourguardwaslookin’theotherway.SoIhoppedupthegangplanktoseewhatIcouldpinch.Firstcabinthere’sapacketofcigarettes.Wellwe’dhadnonesoIgo‘whfffft’inthepocket.Nothin’elsetheresoIoutbeforeIgotspottedandpassedthemroundtotheblokesandIhadacigaretteandthenanothersomebodyelsetookoneoutandthentheguardhappenedtoturnaroundandspotted’em.

35:00 Sohecomedowntotheblokethathad’emandgivehimacoupleaslapsandtookthepacketacigarettesandthecigarettehehadinhishandandwentupandpuffedawayandjustthenoraboutthattimetheGermancomeroundthecorneronthetopendofthedockandhemustaseenthepacketcausehetheyallsmoked,theJapsmostathemsmoked,andwouldn’titwouldn’tbethecigaretteandhewalkedoverandhejustlookedatthatandnextminutehewent‘whack’

35:30 andhedroppedtheJap.AnyhowanotherJapcomerunnin’overandtheGermanpointedtothecigarettesandthatandthentheotherJapbeltedintotheblokethathadjustbeenknockeddownandtheGermancomedownpast,causetheyhadnotimefortheJapsand,“Ohthatgothim,”youknow.Hestartedtotalkandoneatheboyssaid,“Don’ttalk.Ourbloke’supthereandyou’renotallowedtotalkandwecouldcopabashin’.”“Ohyeah.”Sohewentonintotheshipyouknowbutwe

36:00 gotsquarewithoneblokebutlittlethingslikethatyouandyoudidalotoflittle,notsomuchwithusbecausewecouldonlyjustputbalanceunderthesleepersandmakesurethelinesweresafebutyoudidalotalittlethingsthattheboyslikeshovelfulsadirtinthefurnaceandthingslikethat,whichputafaultinthesteelandanythingyoucouldgetawaywith

36:30 that’swhatwedid.Anotherinstancethattheyusedtohavethefurnaceuptherewiththeeverythinggotthemoltenmetalcomeoutandit’dcomedownabitofatrenchintobuckets,thecrane’dpickitupandtakeitdownanddropitdowninontothedifferentlittlemouldsthathadto(UNCLEAR)andthisdaythebucketcouldn’thavebeenpassin’properly,hookedupproperly,

37:00 andasittookoff,itwasgoin’downandtherewasallourblokesworkin’anddownwhenitwasfinished,themouldfinishedtheJapsusedtotickput’emontoatrolleyoutatheroadandoneofourblokessawthemetalleakin’outofitcauseitwasabitontheslant.Soheracedthroughunderneathit.Hecouldagotcaughttoobuthewithitbutheracedthroughunderneathit,throughandjammedthepulleyblock.

37:30 AnyhowtheJapboss,Hanchotheycalledhim,hecomeracin’downandthenheseenthemetalcomin’out.Sohelookedatourblokeandhesaid,“Hiroshi,hiroshi,”whichmeant,“Good.”Soanyhowtheywheeleditandtookthemetalbacktorepouritinthethingandourblokegottwobowlsofriceandanawardforsavin’theJapanesegettin’burnt.Our

38:00 blokesays,“BuggertheJapanese.”Hesays,“Iwastrynasaveourblokes,”buthedidn’ttelltheJapsthatyouknow.Imeanlittlethingslikethat.So

WhatwasthemoralelikewhenyoumovedtoJapan?

Themoralewasgood.Itthefirstdaywewerealittlebitwhatchamacallnotdownheartedsomuchbutsayin’,“Ohwe’regettin’furtherawayfromAustralia,”but

38:30 wethought,“Wellthisisnotbadconditionsuphere,”andofcoursewehadn’tgotwhatyoucallgotintowinterthen.Itwasintoitwastheirhotweatherandbutthenagainthedoctor,notthedoctorthesergeant,KK,hegaveusatalkin’toandsaid,“Wellthisisit.Wegotamakethebestofthis,”andhekeptusonthathe’sthebackbonehekeptusgoin’youknow.Ourtwoofficers,well

39:00 thelesssaidaboutthemthebetter,so.

Whatweretheperiodsthatyoufoundthemostdifficult?

Thatisveryhardtosaybecausenearlyeverydifficult,everyperiodwasdifficult.Youweredownin

condition.Itgotthatwayattimesthatyouhadajobto

39:30 forceyourselftowalkandI’dsaythatthey’rethetimesthatwerethemostdifficultbutyouknewyouhadtodoit.Youknewyourmatesweredownthesameasyouandyouwouldn’tgiveincauseyouknewonceyougivein,he’dgivein.Soyouhadtoitwasthesameasgoingintoactionintothearmyinthewar.Youwerescaredandsowashe,butyoudidn’twanttoshowitbecauseonceyoustartedacertainlotofscares

40:00 showsonafewpeoplethat’swhenthepanic’llsetin.Soyoubraveditoutandsothat’syouknowthat’sthewaythingswent.It’ssomethin’that’svery,veryhardtoexplainbutit’sathementaladaption.Youknowyoudoitdothat.SoI’veoftensincethewifepassedawaythoughtofthisandgonebackthroughthesethingsandtriedto

40:30 puzzleoutbutIdidn’thaveenoughschoolingtogoorenoughbrainstoworkoutwhyitis.It’sthesamethingwithcomin’home.IwellI’veoftensaid,youcomehomebecauseyouwantedtocomehome.Wesaid,“You’renotgonnadieintheircountry,”andthat’soneathethingsweusedtosay.Anyonegotdowninthedumps.“Don’ttellmeyou’regonnadieinthiscountry,”andthisisthewaythingsarebutwho’stosaywhatthesetupwas?Idon’tknow.

41:00 Ican’tfathomitoutandthewholeissueeventheyearsandyearsI’vetried.

We’regonnaputinanothertape.

Tape7

00:33 Alan,whatdidyouthinkwhatdidyoulookforwardtothemostaboutgoinghome?

Gettin’home.Thatthemostthingwasmakesurewegothomebecausethereisquiteafewprisonersofwarthatevenafterwereleaseddidn’tgethome.WhenIwasgoin’

01:00 throughgettingthenamesofalotofourboysin1980about1985,1983,1984,1985somethin’IcomeacrosswhereaplaneinthePhilippineIslandsAustralians,ahAmericantookaplane,Idon’tknowhowmanyonit,toflytoAustralia.Heradioedbackthattherewasacyclone.ThathewasgonnaturntotheChinesecoasttogetarounditandwasnever

01:30 heardagain.Anotherone,there’safunnytypeofending,hewassupposedtoonrecordsrunintoacycloneandwasdownedandnooneeverheardaboutitbutthatwasin1945buthereohafewyearsago,Ican’tremember

02:00 inthePixmagazine,theoldPixIdon’tknowwhetherit’sstilltoday,Isawwhereanavybloke,Australiannavybloke,they’dbeenonashipinthePacificOceansomewhereandtheyrunintothiscycloneandwhilethey’rebattlin’withthecyclone,thewaveswerethatbigtheywerebustin’overtheshipandthingslikethat,

02:30 theycouldhearaplaneandtheplanewaslowdownoverthewater.Itwentpastthemanditsaidtheythoughtthisplanewasintrouble.Ithadn’tgoneaveryfarorlongorsomethin’butitturnedandcomebackandasitcomebacknearthemtherewasaflashingoflightsfromtheplaneandthentheplane

03:00 droppedintotheocean.Immediatelytheplanedroppedintherewaspeoplejumpin’outofit.TheyIthinkit’seightortwelve,I’mnotsurewhichnow,theyputropesdownandropeladdersdownandtheywentoutthemselvestotryandpick’em.Theyeitherpickedeightortwelvepeopleupandwhentheygotonboardtheyfoundtheywereprisonersofwarheadin’forAustralia

03:30 fromthePhilippineIslands.Nowtherewasnomoreaboutitbutthat’sallandthatwasinthePixandIreadthatandI’veoftenwonderedwhetherthatwastheonethatwasmissingthatflewintoitandcouldn’tgetoutorwhetheritwastheonethatwasturningtowardstheChinesecoasttogorounditorjustanotheronebutseealotathemallwantedtogethomeandwewereinthiscampinManilatofattenup

04:00 andasmuchfoodasyoucouldeat.Theydidn’tworryaboutyoubustin’yourselfbecausetheyyou’dbeenofferedontheordinaryfoodforaboutamonthsoyoucouldgetoveritlike.TheygotdowntotheYanksandofcoursetheYankstheywerethebigchiefsasthesayin’isandalotof’emdid.OnebloketookoffandhewasgonnagotoflytoAustralia

04:30 whentheAustraliansleftourcampandheaboutIthinksometimethenextdayhecomeback.Isaid,“Couldn’tyougetatrip?”“Ohyes,”hesaid,“Wedidn’tgetoutveryfar,”andhesays,“Allofasuddenthepilotsays,‘God,’hesays,‘we’renearlyoutofpetrol.’Hesays,‘Theydidn’tfilltheso-and-sogoddamnplaneup.’Hesays‘Wewon’tgetveryfar.’Sohesaid‘Wegottoturnandgoback.’”Imeanthere’sthingsthatdid

05:00 happenandsoyouIdon’tknowandwouldn’thaveacluehowmanyandthat.Wehad,asfarasIknowwehadnonedieonourshipcomin’homebutothersdiedontheship.

Whataboutmenwhodiedinthecamp?Didthathappenoften?

WehadactuallythreediedinthecampbutonediedontheboatthedaybeforewegotintoMoji.Onethatdiedinthatcampwasareject

05:30 fromtheFirstworldWarandhewasputintoathe8thDivisionandbutheablokenameofBillBrocklehurst.TheytheJaps,wellIsupposetheycremated’em.TheybroughtbackalittlejarwithashesinitandasfarasIknowoursergeantbroughtthemhometoAustraliaand

06:00 washadthemalltaggedandpresumehewasgonnasendthoseashestotheirnextakinbutwhateverhappenedIwouldn’thaveacluecauseIneverquestionedhimaboutit.Itwasjustoneofthosethings.SotheblokenameofJohnnyPatterson,Victoria,RonAhearnfromQueenslandandBillBrocklehurst.Iwouldn’tknowhis,it’sinmebookthereanywayandablokenamedMickHartley.Hediedonthe,thedaybeforewegoton

06:30 theofftheboatatMojionourwaytoJapan.

Didyoufindthatyouexperiencedconflictwithotherpeopleinthecamp?Youmentionedthattheofficersthelessyousaidaboutthemthebetter.

No,wellseewhatwehad

07:00 acoupleofus,afewofusanywayhadagainstourofficerswasthatwhenwegottoJapanthismajortoldus,“We’rehere.We’regottadobestwecan,”andhesays,“Onlytwoofusgetoutofthiscamp,”hesaid,“ThelieutenantandIwe’llbethetwo.Evenifwe’regottauseyourrationstokeepusgoin’,”andsomeonesangoutinthebackintheranks,

07:30 “Ifwegetoutathiscampdon’tcomehomewithusoryou’llneverreachhome.”WelltoputitstraightIdidn’tknowtheycamecomebutIfoundoutwhenwelandedtheydidbuttheylockedthemselvesintheircabinanddidn’tcomeout.causeI’mprettysurethatsomeoftheseboyswouldacarriedouttheirthreat.Thatwasoneinstance.Anotherinstancethatwehadonebloke,ohwellhehe’dbeenintroublewiththe

08:00 policebeforewewentinthearmy,gotinthearmytogetoutatheroadandthingslikethatbuthewasastubbornlittleblokeandanyhowhedidsomethin’wrongonedayandthemajorwarnedhimandacoupleadayslaterhediditagain.SothemajordobbedhimintotheJapandhegotahellofahidin’.Wellasfaraswetherestofuswereconcernedthat’stheworst,todobhimintoanenemy,andthat’swhenwetoldhimstraight,

08:30 “You’reinforit.”Hecouldn’tdoanythingtherebecausetheJapswouldn’tlethim.IfhestartedtobashsomeofustheJaps’dbeenontohim.Hegotcoppedahidin’ortwobuthewasabigbloke,oversixfootandabigsolidwrestlerbeforethewar.Hedidn’tgiveitupthere.Hewouldn’tbackusupagainsttheJapsoranythingyouknow.That’spartalife.Humannature.Younameit.

Didyoudidthatdidheseparatehimselffromtherestofyou

09:00 fortherestofyourtimeinthecamp?

No.Hewasthere.Helivedintheendofthehutsinthenumberonebaywith’embuttheyjustwellvirtuallytheyjustignoredhim.Hehadnothing.Hedidn’tgotoworkandsowehadnothingtodowithhimalldayandCadySmithwastheonethatweallturnedtoifwewantedtodoanythingorwasintrouble.WeallturnedtoCady.

SoCadywastheleader?

Hewas.Hewastheleaderandwelleven

09:30 I’lltellyahowgoodhewas.In13thor14thofMarch1945whentheyburntOsakatothegroundtheJapslockedthedoors,lockedusallinbutthere’sagapundertheeaveslikethat.Youcouldacrawledwelldidmatterafactsnowtimesomeofuscrawledouttoputthesnowawayfromthedoorandwewereupthetopbaysandwewerewatchin’outthebigfire.

10:00 TheallclearwentandtheJapsopenedthedoorandtheboyssaid,“Wellthankgoodnesswedidn’tgethit.Theymustaknownwherewewere.”Thenallofasuddenweheardthisloneplanecomin’andsaid,“Haha,aJapplanetakin’offnowthey’regone.That’s(UNCLEAR)us.”Sayin’amongstourselvesandnextminuteweheard’em.

10:30 Theythecampwaslikethatandthefencewassowidefromitandagodownwasfromtheregoin’thatwayandhecomeoverourcampafterthatgodownandonecylinderhittheedgeofthegodownandthesomeofthecylinderslandedinourcampandsetfiretothekitchenandapartathewashroomsorta

11:00 thing.SoassoonaswecouldseetheglowandsoCadysays,didn’twaitforthemajorortheJaps,hesays,“Comeon,quick.Getthebuckets.”Soweracedoutwithbucketsandawholelotofusandgrabbin’bucketsawaterandthingandthrowin’itover’emandthenthegateleadingoutwasjustabovethetopathegodownandhewenttogooutthereandthisJapsangout,

11:30 “No,no,outthere.No,no,no,”andtheJapsays,“We’regonnasavethatbecausethatifthatburnsourcampgoes.”Soheracedoutandtookthetopintothegodowntostopit(UNCLEAR).Hedidn’twaitforJappermission.Justignoredthemandthesamewiththemajorandanythingelseyouknow.Soitjustshowsyouwhatsortofablokehewas.Hewasknewwhattodoandhewentanddiditandtheytellmehewasacolossalblokeinactionwhenthewhiletheyalthoughhewasn’tinourunit

12:00 inaction.Hewasintheammo[ammunition]sectionandtheyreckonhewasacolossalblokeinthat.Afraidanothin’.Soitjustyouknowthat’sjustthewayitwas.Sohewasacolossalblokeandthebackboneofourcampasfaraseverybodyelsewasconcerned.

NowIunderstandthatyourfiancéehadheard…?

Mmm,goon.

Thatyouwerecaptured

12:30 orthatyouweremissinginactionbutdidn’tbelieveit.Isthatcorrect?

That’sright.Shedidn’tbelieveitrightthrough.Wehadafunnywehadasomewherearoundtherewasabondsomewherethatweknewwecouldalmosttalktoeachotherwhenwewerewayapart

13:00 butbothherandtheirmotherIsaywerethetwothathavekeptmedry.SowhenwecomebacktoontheHMSFormidablewehadabitafunbeforewegotontheofftheboat.Theprovos[Provosts–MilitaryPolice],theAustralianArmypolice,gotonattheHeads

13:30 andtheboyshadabigbanner,“WewantBennett,”andtheprovosasked’emtotakeitdownandtheywouldn’t.Sotheysaid,“We’llbeunderarrestwhenwe…,”andthey’dlockusupassoonaswegotofftheship.WellI’dhad,likeIalwaysdo,roamaroundandthemanyatimeI’dbeenuponthebridgebetweenthePhilippineIslands

14:00 andthatandtalkin’totheskipperorthecaptainaswecalledhim.Talkin’tohimandhewantedtoknowallaboutwhathappenedduringtheprisonerofwarlifeandthewholeissueandI’mtellin’himthesameasI’mtalkin’toyouandanyhowtherelookedlikebein’ariotwiththeprisonerofwaragainsttheseprovos.SoIjustsangoutturnedaround,“Holdit,”andIranupandasIranuptowardsthebridgethisPommy

14:30 navyahwellnavybloke,sailor,hesaid,“Whereyagoin?”andIsaid,“There’sabitatroubledownthere.”Isaid,“Ariot.”Isaid,“Imightgettheskipper.”“Ohyoucan’tgoupthere.”Hesaid,“Hecan’tleavethatdeckthebridgewhileit’slandin’,berthin’.Justaminute,”hesaid.“Waitthere.”Sohetookoffandafewminuteslaterthiscaptaincomeracin’down.“What’sthetrouble?”Itoldhim.“Comeon.”Soheraceddown.Hewalkeduptotheseprovos.These’sfourof’em.Hewalkedup

15:00 to’emandhesays,“Right.Iownthisship.I’mtheonethat’sthebossathis.Now,”hesaid,“Leavethosemenalone,”andoneoftheprovosstartedtobackhesaid,“Look.”Hesaid,“I’mincharge.WhathappensontheshoreyoupleaseyourselfbutI’minchargehere.Now,”hesaid,“Ifyoudon’twalkawayimmediately,”hesays,“I’llgetmementolockyouinthebriguntilweland,”andheturnedtothemandhesaid,“Youheardme.Wellmake’emdowhatthey’retold,”andhetookoffandwent

15:30 back.Anyhowtheywalkeduptotheprovosandsaidafewwordsandtheymovedoffandjustastheydidthatoneatheboys,“HeyPopeyyou’rewanted.”Isaid,“What’swrong?”andhesays,“There’sabigflagdowntherewaitin’foryou.”SowheretheaircraftcarrierslopeddownIwentdown,twoblokeshungontome,downthereandthe,“WelcomehomeAlanPope.”Itwasthefamily.

16:00 Soanyhowthat’sthewaythingswentandbutshewaitedrightthroughandevenwhenIwasinhospitalshebeensobutwehadahappyknackcauseIcouldbeatworkandIknewsomethin’waswrongathomeandIcouldsheandshe’dknowsomethin’hadhappenedtome.causeoftenshesaid,“Didyahaveabitatroublebeforedinner?”andIthought,“Howthehellwouldyouknow?”Anyhowthisgotthisway.So

16:30 giveyouanideaathebond,whenshegotsickwithlungcancer,neversmokedbutgotlungcancer,onenighttheyputherinhospital.Shewasn’tgettin’enoughair,oxygenandonenightI’dbeenasleepandIrolledover,“Ah,don’ttellmeshegotuponherown.”SoIflewoutabedandIgothalfwaytothetoilet

17:00 toseewheresheusuallygoes,“Ohshe’sinhospital.”Ilookedattheclock.Eightminutestoten.SoanyhowwhenIwentuptothehospitaltovisithershe’sontubesinthenoseandthingstogetoxygenintoherlungsandthesistercomeinjustthentocheckthemachineandIsaidtosister,“Whatsortofnightshehave?”andshesaid,“Veryrestless.”Shesaid,“AsamatteroffactIcaught

17:30 hergettin’outabed,”andIlookedatherandsaid,“That’dbeeightminutestotenwouldit?”andshegivemeaqueerlookandshesays,“Howdoyouknow?”andIsaid,“Iknow,”andthat’sthewaythingswereyouknowandthemornin’shediedthedaughtercomehomefromGosfordandshewasasleepinthatspareroomandacourseoncenighttimemyhearin’aidsgoonthere

18:00 andIdon’thearnothin’.ThephonecouldringandIwouldn’thearitandquarterpastfiveinthemornin’Iheardthissharpvoice,whichsheusedtouseattimes,“Alan,”andIflewupoutabed,

“What?”andbythattimeIwasatthedoorandIthoughtIlookedupandIsaidtothedaughteronthephone,“What’swrong?”“You’rewantedatthehospitalimmediately.”Soweracedupandwewereabitlateingettin’thereand

18:30 thesister,“Shewentabouteightminutesago.”Isaid,“YeahIknow.”ShelookedatmeandIsaid,“Aquarterpastfive.”Shegivemeaqueerlook.Shesaid,“Howdidyouknow?Youweren’there.”I’mjustpointin’outthedifferentthingsyouknow.That’slife.

19:00 Whatdidyoudowhenthingsweregettingtoughtohavealaugh?Didyouplaygames?

Where?

Inthecamp.

No,welltheywouldn’tletyaplaygames.Youdidn’thavevirtuallynowhatyoumightcallidletime.UpinJapanwellyouknowitwaswhatsparetimeyouhadyou’reeithertrynafindoutwhobroughttheliceintothecampand

19:30 clean’emuportrytokeepcatchanyfliesthatcomeintothecampandthingslikethat.You’realwaysonthegodoin’somethin’andIdunnoknowwhatIdidbutwealwayshadahappyknackofyarnin’.You’dgetuptoabayandyou’dandyou’dtalkaboutsheepandcattleorwhatyou’regonnado.Howmanyweregonnabuypubsandclosethedoorsanddrink’emoutwhentheygothome.WellIdon’tthinkthere’dbeapubleftinAustraliathatwasourtalk

20:00 andbutwelearntagoodtrade,meincluded,howtothieve.WhenIcomehomeIwasinhospitalandIsaidto’emandtheyusedtolaughatme,“Don’teverletmegointoashoponmeown.”Theysaid,“Why?”Isaid,“Ifanything’sthereIwant,I’lltakeit.”YouneverpinchedoffyourownmatesoroffyourownofftheAustralianprisonersofwarbuttheJapsoranything

20:30 elseleftanythingthereandyouhaditandIneardidonceinCanberra.Thewifesaidtome,“Whatareyadoin’withthat?”Isaid,“Puttingmepocket,oh.”IhadthishalfwayintomepocketandImeanthat’spartofit.YoulearnttosoI’vegrownoutifnowsoyou’requitesafe.

Inthesteelfactory

Hmm?

Inworkinginthesteelfactory,whatwasyourjob?

21:00 Puttin’thebalanceinonthesleepersaroundtherailwaylines.Theyallhadtobekeptinorder.Wecouldn’tsabotage’embecauseifwetriedtosabotage’emyourownmatespushin’wieldin’thetrolleyswouldabeentheonestogetcaught.Sowehadtomakesurethateverythingwasrightbecauseifyou’vegotbigplatesofsteelprobablyten,fifteenfeet

21:30 longandaboutfourorfivefeetwide,someatheplatesmightevenbetwentyfeetlong,Imeanitdoesn’ttakemuchtoshiftthemsotheyhadtobethey’dbebalancedonitandtheywerethentakenup.Soyouhadtojustmakesurethateverythingwasasclosetosafetyasyoucouldandoh,wehadourbitsafun.Wenearlyhadafightalongablokenamed

22:00 FreddySantos,Tonganislandbloke.Little,fourfoot,blackastheaceaspadesandyouhadwickerbasketsandtheyusedtoslide’emontoapoleandyou’dbeapolebetweenyouandyou’dcarrythisthesebasketsfullofmetaltotakedowntodifferentpartsoftheline.You’dcarryitfromabigheapupthereyou’dcarry’emdownandspread’emalongtheline.

22:30 WellFreddywasfourfeet.I’mfive,wellfivefeeteight.SowhenFreddy’dgetinthefrontwhenyougoalongthebasket’dslowlyworkhiswayandhe’dgocrook.Thenhe’dgethe’dsay,“I’llgouptheback,”andwhenhe’dgetupthebackit’dgohiswayandFred

23:00 attheendathedayFredcomeuptomeandhesaid,“GeePopey.It’sgood,”hesaid,“Youdon’tgetcranky.”Isaid,“Whatdoyoumean?”“Oh,”hesaid,“Ihadreal,”I’musin’hiswords,“Ihadreallyhadtheshitstoday,”hesays.Hesaid,”Iflewforyouthreeorfourtimes.”Isaid,“Yeah,butIknewwhatwasdoin’.”Isaid,“Youknewwhatwasdoin’toobut,”Isaid,“Youjusthadtogetitoutayoursystem,”butthat’sthesortathingyouknowtherewasespeciallywithourgroupbutmostgroupsInever

23:30 heardonereallyargumentwith,fairdinkumargument.I’veheardafewwhentormentin’ablokethat’sgotdowninthedumps.Tormentin’himtoIrememberoneInearlycomeintooncewithablokethatwasdownthedumpsandI’mupinthetopbayandthey’redownthebottom.AllofasuddenIheardthisblokesay,“Shewasn’t.”“What’sgoin’on?”Bitofaloudvoice

24:00 andIlookedoverthetopanddownthisblokeandhelookedupandspottedme.Hesaid,“HeyPopeyisn’tthatright?”Hesays,“ThatShirleyTemple’saprostitute,”andbeforeIcouldsayanythingthisblokesaid,“Shewasn’t.”Hesaid,“Getuphere.Comeon.Getuphereinsteadalayin’downtherewhilewe’retalkin,”andsotheblokegotoutabedandgotupandthey’rearguin’andthisblokesaid,“WellIonlyhearditmate.”Hesaid,“Ionlyheardbuthey,you’reonyourfeet.

24:30 You’renotsickafterall,”andthatwastheideathatwasyouknowthingslikethatandIsaidtothis

bloke,“Youso-and-so,”Isaid.“Younearlyhadmeinthen.Inearlycomeintoit,”andhesays,“Welljustasbloodywellyoudidn’t,”hesays.“Wegotthisbloke,”Imeanyoudothosesortathingsandonceyougotablokecrankyandgothimonhisfeethenhe’dwakeupthatitwasonlyamindmatter.Wellitwasmorethanamindmatteryouknowbuthismindwasgettin’himdown.Yougotagethismindworkin’againandthatwasit

25:00 andthewholelotofuswasallinthatsamepattern.I’mnottalkin’abouttheofficers,I’mjusttalkin’theblokesweusedtodealwithandwehadourchurchservicesandwehadthisandwehadthatandwe’dtalkandgivelecturesoncattleandsheepandpickonthem,“Whatwereyoudoin’beforethewar?”andlethimgivearundownofwhathewasdoin’andthingslikethatandthat’sthewayyouputinyouknowbecause

25:30 Idon’tcarewhereyougobutthere’svirtuallynotwopeoplealikeandsomeofthemhadsomedifferent,“Ohgood,I’lltrythatwhenIgethome.”Thedifferentideasanddifferentmethodstheyhadandthewholelotofushardtounderstandahhardtoexplainbutthat’swhatkeptusgoinginthecamp.

Whatwerethelecturesthatyougave?

Begyourpardon?

Whatwerethelectures?

Ohmostmostlyonrabbitingandfencingand

26:00 sheep,shearin’asheepandthingslikethatandcoursewithustherewasquiteafewcitypeoplethathardlyknowasheepfromadogtypeathingandcouldn’tmakeouttheshears.Triedtodescribe,“Oh,likeapairascissors?”Isaid,“Yes,butonlyinabiggerandwiderbladeandabiggerpattern.”Youknowgivetheideawhatitwasyouknow.“Wellwouldn’tthatcuttheskin?”“Ohitdoesoccasionallyifyouwasn’ttakin’,”anddescribehow

26:30 youdiditandthingslikethatandyouknowitwasmarvellouswhenyou’retalkin’likethat.Thesameastalkin’anddifferentherelikedifferentthingscropupthatyouhadn’tthoughtofforyearsandonethingleadstoanother.Some’dhavecattleandsome’dhavewheatandallthedifferentthingsabouttheplaceandsomeone’dbetalkin’aboutsomeathecityslickers’dbetalkin’aboutthedifferentthingstheydidinthecityandaskidsgrowin’

27:00 upandthat.Youknowitit’sjustmarvellouswhenyou’relikethathowtimegotawayandthat’sthewayitwentanditwasdoneweallknewitwasdonedeliberatelytokeepyouhappy,keepyourmindfromgettin’depressed.SoasIsay,wecomehomebecausewewantedtocomehomeandthatwilltolivethatkeptusthrough.Wewouldn’tacome

27:30 homewithoutamatebecausethatmatewastheonethatkeptyakeptyagoin’.Ifyouweresickandhewasallrighthe’dwhapaspoonfulortwoofriceoverontoyaandwe’ddothesameandthistypeathing.Youknowyoualwayshelpedoneanother.That’swhywehavesuchabigfollowing.EventheblokesfromWesternAustraliathey’d

28:00 comeovereverysecondyeartothereunions.Imeanwhenyoulookatthat,that’sabigefforttocomeallthatwayoverforthereunions.Sobutyou’llseesomeathebythatparaphernaliaI’vegotinthereonthesetteeinthere.Sothat’sthewayitis.Ihavemenightmares.NotsobadnowasIusedtohave’em.Ilaidawreath

28:30 onaSandakanmemorialuphereandthe‘Misleader’wecallit,theNorthernDailyLeaderhereorsomethin’.WecallittheMisleaderbecauseiftheycanmessthingsupandmess’emup,theydoandthegirlrangupandshesaid,“Doyouhavenightmares?”andIsaid,“Ohoccasionally.Notsomuchnowasbefore.”“Canyoutellmeaboutanyof’em?”Isaid,“Ohearlyinthepiecesomemornin’sI

29:00 wokeupinthehalfdrowsy,”Isaid,“andIwaswonderedifIwasyouknow.”Isaid,“Iwouldn’trealiseinIwasn’tinaprisonerofwarcampuntilthelightwasinadifferentplacejustlikenow.”ThentheygotitupthatIwaswenttoSandakan,IgotoutthereandIeverymornin’I’dwakeupandofamornin’Iwokeupandno,thismornin’IwokeupandthoughtIwasinstillinbackintheprisonerofwar.Oh,youtalkaboutitandshesaidtomeIsaidtothem,“When’sthis

29:30 gonnabeinthepaper?”andshesaid,“OhpossiblySaturday,”butshesaid,“Don’tyoubuythepaper?”andIsaid,“No.”“But,”shesaid,“Youshouldbuyitcauseitkeepsmeinthejob.”Isaid,“No.Iusedtobuyit,”butIsaid,“Theymadeahellofamessofmewife’sfuneralnotice.SoIwouldn’tbuyitagain,”andloandbeholdtherewasahellofamessinthatone.It’sinthere.It’sfunnytoreadwhenImeanitmightn’tbefunnyforyoutoreadbutit’sfunnyformetoread

30:00 butjustthewaythingsgoinlife.Yawinsome,youlosesomeand

WhenyouwereinOsakahowmuchdidyouknowaboutwhatwashappeningintherestofthewar?

Surprisingenoughafairbit.Wehadoneblokethatcould

30:30 speakmorelanguage,JapaneselanguagethanheletonandalsohecouldreadabitofJapaneselanguageandeverynowandagainattheworkswe’dseeapaperlayin’aroundandwe’dpinchaJap

paperanditalotofittookabitofdecipheringasfarasworkin’thetruthfrompropagandabutbyworkin’outthe

31:00 differentplaceswheretheyweretalkin’aboutthedifferenttheadvancestheJapshadmade,showedthattheyweregoin’backwardnotinsomeplacesnotforward.Sowehadareasonableideathatthingsweren’tgoin’realgoodandthenwhenthebombersstartedtocome,theairraidsirensstartedtogoweknewthenthatthingsweregettingclose.

31:30 Theytooksomeofourblokestooverontoamountainrangenotfarfromthecamp.No,thatwasatTakefu,notOsakaunderthepretenceofcheckingforgold,forcoalbutafterwewerereleasedwefoundoutthatthatiswhereweweresupposedtogowhentheiftheYankslanded

32:00 inJapantherewasn’ttobeaprisonerofwarleftalive.Liketheyweregonnashootusinthereorgasusinthere,whattheyweregonnado,butthat’swhereweweresupposedtogo,inthetunnel.Sobutluckilyitfinishedupbutoneathebiggestbluffsinthewar,theJapsputtheYanksputHiroshima,Nagasakibombson’emand

32:30 theatomicbombandsaid,“Thenextone’sTokyo,”buttheydidn’thaveathirdbomb.Thatwasthebiggestbluff.causetheyknewTokyooncetheyweretheretheEmperorwasgoneandeverythingelsebutit’sfoundthatoutthroughhistoryandIreckoniftheJapshadknownthattheyprobablywouldn’tasurrenderedforsure.That’spartalife.

CanyoutellmeaboutleavingOsakaandgoingtoTakefu?

33:00 Wellwhentheyburntittothegroundofcoursenextdaywestillhadtogotoworkandthesmellofburningflesh,bodiesandashesandtimbersandstuff,strawwasvirtuallyalmostoverpoweringandareaafterareawasjustcompletelyburntout

33:30 andwellIdon’tknowIthinkit’sI’vegotanideaitwastendaystoafortnight,somewhereaboutthat,theydecidedthey’dtakeusoutofthere.Sofirstofallthetheyputusonthesetramsandsidesallshuttereddownandtookusuptherailwaystationanddidthesameinthetrainandtookusforfromthetrainthenacrosspastsomebiglake,

34:00 Ican’trememberthenameofit,andupintoaplacecalledTakefubutallthetimethatyouknowyoucouldpeekthroughabitofcrackintheblindsyouthink,checktheJaptoseeifhewaswatchin’andyoucouldseeburntareaandthenwhenwegotoutofOsakabutvirtuallytheymightaswellsaytheyburntit,Osakatotheground.Theitmightsoundcruelbut

34:30 thefactorywasn’ttouched.Nowwhethertheydeliberatelyleftthefactories.Itwasallincendiaryraid.Therewasnobigheavybombsasfarasblast’sconcerned.SowheretheywhethertheydeliberatelyburntthesetfiretothehousesorwhatI’llneverknowandI’mnoteveninterestedinfindingoutbutwhenit’sincendiary,welltherewassteelworksouttheretheywouldn’tdomuchcausemostofthatstuff

35:00 wasallironandsteelandthingslikethatbutIwillsayitwasandnotonlywasitabeautifulsighttousseeingtheJapsgettin’atasteoftheirownmedicinebutthey’dlettheseincendiariesgofromwelluptoohighforthebombersweretoohighfortheZeros[Japaneseaircraft]toreach’emsotheywerequitesafeandIdon’tknowwhether

35:30 youknowanythingabout’embuttheyhadthisconeandontopatheconewasabaseplateaboutthatsizeandthesecylinderslikelargebulletswerestackedalloverthat,roundthat.Therewasabandaroundtheoutsideandthe

36:00 topthesewerefilledwithohnotnaphthalenebutsomethin’similar,Ican’tthinkI’llthinkofitlateron,incompressedrubberandthatpressedinbutonthetopwasanotherbandandrightdownthemiddlewasascrewandtheywereaboutthathigh.Rightdownthemiddlewasascrewwithafinontop

36:30 andwhentheydroppeditoutatheplanethefinusedtospinandthatwouldundothebandthatgoesrightthroughthemiddle.Thespringinthemiddlewouldjustthrowthesecylinderscompletelyoutallovertheplaceandthestufftheyhad’eminassoonasithittheairthey’dignite.Soyouhadtheseflamin’ballscomin’down.

37:00 Nowthey’dhitonconcrete,anythingflammablesixinchesbelowtheconcretethey’dcatchfire.Soit’dgiveyouanidea.Ifoneof’emhitya,itstuck.Soyouifithitsomebodytheyhadnohope.Theywaseitherburntrightthroughorcasemaybebutthat’showitwasandbecauseonthewaytowork

37:30 wemarchedweseensomeofthemonthewaytowork.TheJapstriedtoget’emoutatheroadandgetusoutatheroada’embutwecouldseewhatthefullsetupwas.SowhenwewenttoYokohamawhenwewerereleasedweaskedtheYanksthen,“Whatdoessuchandsuch,”andtheydescribedtothatthat’swhattheyweredoin’.Sobutthat’spartalife.Partawar.Wardoesn’tdoanygood

38:00 toanybodyandciviliansgettheworsthitofthelot.

WhenyouweretravellingoutofOsakathatdaydidyouseecivilianhousesburnttotheground?

Ohyeah.Whenwewerewalkin’theywereburnttherewasjustthereouttherejusthousesjustburntandthey’restillsmoulderin’.Theywereburntandtherewaspeoplerunnin’aboutanddazedanddidn’tknowwhattheyweredoin’andwalkin’hereandweepin’andcryin’andallthat.

38:30 Imeanitvirtuallyitmademostofusfeelsickbutitwasapartawar.We’dseensimilartothatinSingapore.Sowe’dhadonelessonthereandalthoughtheydidn’tuseincendiariesinSingaporethatwesawwhentheybombedhelloutofitandtherewaspeoplekilledandmatterafactthat’ssomethin’whenIcomeoutathehospitalinthetruck,aswe’regoin’alongIwon’t

39:00 giveyouanideahowmanybuttherewasheadsonspikeswherethey’dloppedtheheadsoffalotaChineseandthatandjuststuck’emonspikestomake’emsuretheykeptlawandorderandyouknowtheyusedtomakeusjustaboutsickgoin’outwhenweweregoin’tohospitalbuttheyhadtheseheadsjuststuckontheseit’slikeputtin’’emonthespikeofanironfenceyouknowanduponlightpolesandthingslikethat.

Sotellus

39:30 aboutgettingtoTakefu.

Aboutthework?

Whatdidyouseewhenyouarrived?

Ohtheytookustothiscamp,rightthroughit,anditwasjustthetownwasaboutthreekilometresawayorthreemiles,eitherway,butallrounditwasopenpaddyfieldsandricepaddocksandthingslikethatandthenwehadaaboutamileandahalfawaywasathiscarbon

40:00 factory.SoImeanwewerejustthoughtwemightsayisolatedandwewonderedwhatwewereuptowhenwegettherebutthenextdaytheytookustothefactoryandwelltheygaveusthesejobstodoandtheonethatIwasin,thegangthatIwasin,wehadtomakethesecarbonblocks.Theywerethatsquareandaboutjustoohfivefootsomethin’tallandwhentheywereyoujusttipped

40:30 pitchandcarbiteandlordknowswhatintoitfromthetop.Whenitdidjustturnaratchetandjustpackitdownandwhenitgotdowntoacertainpressureyoustood,keptitthereforthreeminutesthenreleasedit.It’dgobackupthenyou’dpulltheratchetandthiswouldcomeout,stillhot,andyou’dhavetogetyourkneedowninfrontofit.

41:00 I’dbetterstandup,yourkneesgoinfrontofitandwhenitcomeupitleantoutofitandyoudidn’tdaren’tletitfallbecauseit’djustcrumbleupandthenyouwereallgotbashedandtheblokesourblokeshadatrolley,aflattoptrolley,upthereandtheblokegotouttheregotit,swungitroundhiskneeandstartedtoloweritandtheygrabbeditfromthereandloweritontothetrolleyandtookitdowntothefurnacebecauseitthrewagreaterheatthantheordinarycokeand

41:30 coalandstufftheywereusin’.That’swhyIhurtmeshoulderonedayinthereandIitwhenIswungitroundit’scomebackandhittheshoulder.Youtooknonoticebecausenowork,nofoodanditdidn’thurtthatmucheitherthatoneandIneverknewthatIdidanydamagetomeshoulderuntilhereafewyearsago.Themusclethatmuscledroppedintothereoff

42:00 theshoulder.

Tape8

00:31 WhatwerethedatesyouwereatTakefu?

AhI’dhavetolookitup.Ithinkaroundaboutthe20thorsomethin’ofMarch1945.roundabout20somethin’ofMarch1945.

Whatwerethelivingconditionsyouhadatthatcamp?

Fairlygoodinfact.Wewereisolatedawayfromthe

01:00 townsandtherewasnobays,justabigaflathutwithastairwayupthetopandbigflatontopandyoujustlaidinontopofthatandontopofthatitwaswhatyoumaycallcomingintosummertimeandsoitdidn’trainbuttheygetuptofivefeetofsnowthereinthewintersowewereabitlucky.

01:30 Andstillthesamediet?

Ohyes.Ohyoudidn’tgetmuchtoeat.Theywerefrightenedtheymightfattenusupbuteventhen,allduerespect,eventhenalotoftheJapfamilieswereonastarvationdiettoo.Theywererunnin’shortafoodandtherewasabigscreamon.

Howlongweretheshiftsthatyouwereworkinginthefactoryatmakingcarbonblocks?

Howlongashift?

Yeah.

Sixteenhourshifts.

02:00 Startatmiddayandgothroughtillsixo’clockthenextmornin’.Thenthey’dstartatsixandthenthey’dgothroughthe,they’dstartthethenandthey’dgothroughtomidnightandthatsortathing.Youknowyourightthrough.That’sthewayitwas.

Sohowmanyhourssleepdidyougetafterthat?

Wellvirtuallytoacertainextent

02:30 asmuchasyouwanted.Youweusedtoknockoffwork,marchbacktothecampaboutamileandahalforsomethin’likethatandthenofcourseasixteenhourshiftweweretiredandwe’dgostraighttobedandyou’dsleeptherethroughtillaboutroughlymidday.Thenwe’dgetupandwe’dhaveourbowlariceandthatwasthenlikeour

03:00 breakfast.Sothenwe’dgoandcleanupanddothethingsandtidyourbedsandwhatthecasemaybeandthennearlyallthetime,Iwouldn’tsaynineoutoftenbutatleastsevenoreightoutoftenthedoc’dlineusupandcheckusofffortoseehowweweregoin’andseewhatconditionwewereinandthingslikethat.SoImeanallinallyoudidn’thavemuchtimetoyourself.Thenwe’dwalkroundthecompoundandwedidn’thavemuch

03:30 compoundthere.Itwasonlylikeactuallyitwasnotmuchbiggerthangoin’fromthefencetheretothefenceatthebackhereyouknowonthissection.Thatwasourcompound.Soyoudidn’thavemuchtodobut

WerethereJapaneseciviliansworkinginthefactory?

Yeah.

Andwhatdidyouhavetodowiththem?

Nextdoortonothingunlessyouhadtogoandhelp’emwithsomethin’ortheyhadtocomeandhelpyouwithsomething.Imeanalotofthe

04:00 timeifthey,it’shardtoexplainbutsomeathecivilianJapsinasensewerequitefriendlyandiftheywantedsomethin’donequitefrequentlythey’dgetaoneatheprisonerstohelpthemdoitbuteightyorninetypercentcouldn’tunderstandorevenspeakEnglishbutbetweenyouseyou’dpoint

04:30 outthisandshowwhattodoandthingslikethatbuttheyshowedinthealotofthemshowedinthemselvesthatitwasn’tourtheirfaultthatwewerethereandIrememberoneblokethere,Iwashelpin’himwithonedayIcan’trememberdoin’andhewaslookin’down.Hejustshookhishead.Hesays,“Boomboomno.Boomboomno,”andyouknowIjustfrommythathemeant,“Thewar.

05:00 No.”Youknowhedidn’tlikethewarbutthat’sallthatmostofthemcouldsee.Youknowisyouknowonlydonebysignlanguage.

Howdidyouhearabouttheendofthewar?

Wellweknockedoffworkatsixo’clockinthemornin’,ourgang.Countedoutthegate.

05:30 Theotherlotwerecountedinthegatebythefactoryguardsandweweremarchedbacktotown,ahbacktocamp.Wewentintoandlaidstraighttobedandwehadn’tbeeninthereverylongandallofasuddentherewasahellofaclatterandnoiseandtheblokeswereyellin’andscreamin’andgoin’onandsowegettin’upandtellin’’emtoshutupsowecangoandsomesleep.Thenallofasuddensome

06:00 ofthemrealisedthat,“Whyweretheythere?Youshouldbeworkin’.”Sowesangoutto’em,“Whatwhat’swrong?What’swhathappened?Nowork?”andweknewtherewasbecauseyouleftinrelays.Itonlytook’emlessthantenminutestogetusoutathecamp,intothecamp,ontotheworkyouknowandwelefteverythinginrelaysforthem.Weknewthatwaswrongandacoursethat’swhentherumoursstarted.“Thewar’sfinished.”“Thisiswrong.That’swrong.”Somethin’else,see,and

06:30 anywayweallthatdaythere’srumoursweregoin’wildofwhatitwasandalltheboysincludin’meselffeltabitofaliftupyouknow.Thatnightloandbeholdtheairraidsirenwentagain.Thatmessedthatrumourup.Thenextdayoneablokeoneofmematesfrommeownhometown,JimmyBayliss,andIandsomeoneelse

07:00 andIcan’tneverrememberhisnamewaswalkin’downalongthefence.Justweusedtogoforbitsawalkroundthefenceandthat,getabitofexerciseandthatandofcourseyoudidn’tgetmuchatthefactory.Onlyjuststandin’moreorlessinoneplacedoin’thisandthatandtherewasabigvacantallotmentoffthe,bigvacantpaddockandacrewinthereusedtohavetomowit.Mostlywithascythe

07:30 andthingslikethatandthenhewasgoin’,ohIsupposeaboutfourorfivefeetawayfromgoin’downhunkereddownandyoudaren’tlookupbecausetheguardswereonusandyoudaren’tlookupordomakeanoisesortofbusinessandhejustkeptgoin’thenhesaid,“Boomboomfinished.Boomboomfinished,”andSnowyturnedtome.“Didyou

08:00 hearthat?”andIsaid,“Yeah.Wholelotofrubbish,”andtheotherblokesaid,“Nonono.”Hesaid,“Weheardthatplane,”andoneofussaid,“Ohweheardthatplanelastnight.”Said,“Yeah,butwedidn’thearanyshootin’oranybombs.”Sowewentdowntothecornerthensaunteredbackandaswecomebackpasthimagain,“Boomboomboomboomgone.Boomboomfinished.”Didn’tlookuphejustbendin’downdoin’this.Sowewentinand

08:30 wentoverdowntothedoctor,DoctorStenning,andtoldthedoctor.“Youknow,”hesays,“Thatmightberight.”Hesaid,“InoticedsomeatheJapsdowntherecryin’,”theJapguardsbuthesaid,“Forgoodnesssakeyouthreenow,”hesaid,“I’lltellya,don’tsayawordwhatthatblokesaid.Wecansurmiseallyouselikebutdon’tsayawordbecauseoncethatgetsroundthecamp

09:00 thoseguardswillknowthere’ssomethin’wrongandyouneverknowwhattheymightdo.”Soanyhowhecalledthissergeant,CadySmith,inandtoldhimandCadysaid,“Allright.We’llgiveittwodays.”SoontheseconddayCadysaidtothedoctor,“Comeon”

09:30 andtheywentovertheguardhouseandacoupleaguardsthatwereusuallythereweremissingandCadyandthedoctorexplainedtotheguardthatthewarwasfinishedandtheyweregonnatakeholdof,guardthecampandoneblokeputhisrifleupagainstthewallandtheotherbloke,whowasarealcruelso-and-so,hehungonhisrifleandCady

10:00 justdivedforward,grabbedtherifleandwrencheditoutofhishandandsaid,“Right,”andhelockedhimupinthegaolhouseorwhatever,partofagaolhousetheyhadthere.SoanywaytheythencalledIcan’tthinkknowwhotheywerebutcalledsomeofourblokestotakeonguardduty.Thereasonbeingwedidn’tknowhowthecivilians’dtakeiton.Althoughthecampwasitwastownwasaboutroughlytwoandahalf,threekilometresaway

10:30 wedidn’tknowwhattheyyouknowmightagetupsetandthewholeissue.SothatwasitandwehadthirtythreeYankswithusandoneathemachiefpettyofficer,Hookem,H-doubleO-K-E-MandhewasahardYankeemarinestheywerehewentovertheguardhousethisdayandwewereallroundtheguardhouseand,whichwasbetweenthehouseandthemaingate,

11:00 andhewentinandhegrabbedthiscruelJapandbroughthimoutandsomeonesangoutforCadyandCadycomeoutandhesaidtoHookem,“Whatareyougonnadowithhim?”Hesaid,“I’mgonnabashhelloutofhim.”Cadysaid,“Noyou’renot.”Hesaid,“Don’tloweryourselftotheirlevel.”Hesaid,“Noyou’renot.”Hookemhesaid,“I’lldoit,”andCadysays,“WellIwouldn’tadviseyato,”andhesaid,

11:30 “Oh,”hesays,“We’vegotalltheYanksallmyboysarebehindme,”andtheboyssays,“Yeah.”Hesaid,“You’vegotthirtythree.”Hesaid,“We’vegotoverahundredandfifty.So,”hesaysyouknow,“Atthisstagedon’tletanythingbeonyou’llbesorryfor.”SoHookemturnedroundandheshapeduptothisJapandtheJapthrewhimselfdownandlaidontheground.SoHookthrewhimselfdownalongsidehimandthengive

12:00 himthreeoverthetopoverthetoplikethatandthengotupandwalkedaway.SothenwetookhimJapawayandputhimbackintheguardhouseandlateronwhentheYankscomethroughcheckin’onthecampsandtheytookthiscruelfellowawaywiththemallthatandtheytoldusthattheythatthey’dpickusuplaterastheywerecheckin’oneachcamptofindoutthatalotofthecampstheyknewwereinthe

12:30 townintheplacebuttheycouldn’tfindoutwheretheywere.Wellthenitwasonthe1stofSeptemberwesawourfirst,aswesay,firstwhitemanaswecalledit.OurfirstAustralian.HewasablokefromtheMelbourneArgusandhecomeupandtookallournamesandsaid,“WelllookIdon’tknowforsure,”buthesaid,“theytoldmetotellyouthatinthecamp

13:00 thatyouwouldpossiblygooutofhereaboutthe9thor10thofSeptember.”“Yousecan,”andthenitmustabeenStenningandCadywasthereandthentheysaidtous,“RightyoucanwanderroundmuchasyoulikebutIwantyoubackincampinnomorethantwohours.Nobeawaynomorethantwohoursanywhere,”andthatwasjusttoroamroundthepaddocksandthingslikethatandIbutbefore

13:30 thatthebeforethe1stthe25thofAugusttheYankscomeoveranddroppedasupplyoffood.Therewastwohundredinthatcampandtheydroppedenoughfoodforfivehundred.Fourorfivedayslatertheydroppedanotherlotandthenonthe7th

14:00 ofSeptembertheydroppedanotherlot.WellthefirstlotwasenoughforusforthetimeyouknowbutanywaywewererightontherailwaylinesotheygotthetrucksandloadedthetrucksupwithallthesuppliesandafewathecivilianJapsthathadbeenreasonablyfriendlygotontothemandgotthemupandgive’emabitofathestuffwehad,foodstuffwehadthat

14:30 thoughtthatdidn’tgive’emtoomuchcausethey’donlytakeittosomebodyelseandsomebodyelseandthenextthingyouknowwe’dhavethewholelotthere.Thenonthe10thofSeptemberweboardedthetrainfromthereandwehadthreetrucksoffoodandclothingorlordknowswhatandthebackwas,welltheyweren’tallbecauseourkitbagsandthingslikethatwereallinwithit.Allinoneof’emandtheytookusoffto

15:00 Yokohama.NowforthelifeofmeIcan’tthinkhowlongittookus.IknowitwasseveralnightsbutwegottoYokohamawherewehadtolineupinoneroom,stripandgothroughthisreallongroomwith

perpetualshowersinit.Bythetimeyouwentinonedoorouttheother

15:30 theshowersweregoin’.There’snowayyoucouldescape’emandwhenwegotouttheothersidetherewastowelsandthatthereforustodryourselvesandthefreshnewclothingforustoputonandthatshowerwastodelouseus.Killanyliceorgermsoranythingelsewehadandthentheygiveusaroughmedicalandthenafeed

16:00 andifyoueverhadaYankeefeedI’dadviseyanotto.Theyhadthistrayaboutsobigwithlittlehollowsstraightinit.Itwasabakeddinnersotheyputthatinthetray,pouredgravyoverit.Nowalongthelineyoucomealongthisbiglongtrestle,goalongthere,andbeforeyoucouldspeaktheyhadstewedfruitandcustardandjustpouredit

16:30 overthetopandIcouldheartheboysyellin’atmebutIwastoolateandI,“Ohdon’tdothat.”Said,“Don’tmatter.It’sallmixedupwhenitgetsdownstairs.It’sallmixedup.”Sothat’swiththefoodbutyoutalkaboutanuglylookin’messyouhadtoeatbutwewerestillthathungryandthatfood.Wewasn’thungry,itwasthefoodbecausewheretherewasfoodyouateandthatwasitandfromtherewegotontoabobbycork,oneathe

17:00 YankLibertyships,SSGoodhue,G-doubleOgoodG-doubleO-D-H-U-E,andtherewasaboutIthinkfrommemorytherewasathousandofusonthatanditheadedforthePhilippineIslands.Wedidn’tknowwherewewereheadedbutIrememberroundthePhilippineIslandsandwewereseveraldaysonitandonemornin’Igotupandofcourse

17:30 youvirtuallyhadtodoacircuittogettherunatheshipandonemornin’Igotupandtwoamematesandmeselfandwalkin’roundandIlookedoutandIsaidto’em,“Hey,getaloadathatwhaleoutthere,”andyoucouldseeoutinthedistance,don’taskmenowbutitonlylookedahumpinthewater.“Getalookatthatwhaleoutthere,”andthissailorcomepast.Hesaid,“Whatdidyousay?”Isaid,“Havealookatthewhale,”andhegoes,“That’s

18:00 notawhale.”Hetookoffandwelookedateachotheranddumbfounded.Wedidn’tknowwhatwasgoin’on.Nextminute,ohhalfadozenatleastmighthavebeenafewmorecomebackwithriflesandtheylinedupagainsttherailandtheystartedshootin’atitandnextminutethere’sonehellofanexplosion.Waterwasupeverywhereandweweretrynamakeitoutandsaid,“Whatthehellwasthat?”“Thatwasamine.”

18:30 Hesaid,“Keepyoureyesopenforme.”Hesaid,“There’sstillafewfloatin’abouthavebrokenfree,”andwesaid,“Ohdon’ttellmewe’regonnagetminetrouble,”becausegoin’homegetcaught.Anyhowlaterononeatheothermobdownfurthertheyspottedoneandtherewasawasanotherexplosionandsomeonesaid,“Ohthat’sanothermine,”andlateronwefoundoneatheboys.Hesaid,“Ohyes.”Hesays,“Wespottedoneout.”Hesaid,“Wewouldn’taknownwhatitwasonlythatfirstlot.”Hesaid,“We,”sohesaidbutanyhowotherthanthatwe

19:00 gotintothePhilippineIslandsandohIthinkitwasroundaboutthemiddletoeithermiddle,thirdweekinthereandwestoppedafortnightinthePhilippineIslandstofattenusup.Nothin’todomuch.Justwalkaround.Eatandsleepandsothen

19:30 wordcomeroundthatweweretobepreparedtomoveatanymomentbutitcouldbethe1stofOctober.The1stcomeanddidn’tthenthe2ndcome.“Righto.”Theylinedusupandatthatstagetherewasatyphooncomingthroughandthingsweregettin’prettyboisterous.WegotontheYanklandin’craftandgotoutthe

20:00 oceanandboy,allourbreakfast,teaandthreeweeksbeforecomeupandtheyreckoneditwastooroughtogoontheboardthebigship.Sowewentback.Nextdaywewentoutagain.Theseashadgonedownalittlebitandtheydecideditwastooroughagain,toodangerousandonthe4thwewentout

20:30 andallofasuddentheYanksstoppedandtheyweren’tthatfaroffthebigFormidablebuttheseawasfairlyroughandtheywereonthemegaphoneseachwayblastin’eachwayandalsothesignallampsweregoin’andoneofourblokesstartedtolaughandIsaid,wewerehangin’onlikegrimdeath.Theboatwasjustgoin’upand,

21:00 “Whatareyalaughin’at?”Hesaid,“Ijustreadthatsignal.”Hesaid,“TheYanksahtheYankssaythatit’stooroughtoputthemon,”andhesaid,“ThesignalcomefromtheaircraftcarrierFormidable‘Youanchoryourlandin’craftandwe’llbringtheFormidableovertoyou.’,”SoanywaytheYanksdecideditmustn’tbeabittoomuchforthem.SotheyfinallygotoveralongsidetheFormidableandhadtheseropeladdersdown

21:30 thesideandwethought,“Ohhell.Wehaven’tgottoclimbupthemsurely,”andabiglongplatform.Nowlookin’atitbeprobablyaboutaaswideasthetableisthatwayandtherewasawholeheapaBritishsailorsonitandourlaunchgotalongsideanditwaslikethattheupanddown.

22:00 Someonesaid,“Right.Whenwesay‘Jump’youjump,”andtherewasasailoralongsideusthatgotholdofourarms.“Nowdon’tforget,don’thesitatejustsay‘Jump’.”Sowhenthey’dsay,“Jump,”we’djumpandthattimewewerejustattherightandoutfarenoughandtheothers’dreachforwardandjustgrabusandpullusonandthenwehadthisstepsthatwehadn’tseen.Wethoughtwewasclimbin’uptheseropesbuttheywereonly

22:30 securityfortheblokesontheraftthatwasoutprotectingandtheyclimbupthesestepsontop.Anyhowitwasverylate,ahIthinkitwasjustaboutdarkbythetimetheygot’emallonfrommemorybutthereyoucouldn’tdoathing.TheseBritishsailorstheywereneverfarway.Ifyouwenttogetoutabedthey

23:00 weretheretohelpyou.Wenttodothistheywouldgetouttohelpyouandtheylookedafterusallthewayhomethenbuttheydidn’tliketheYankeesailors.Theywereamobofchickens.Theyreckonedtheyweredidn’tknowwhattheyweredoin’.Sothenwe

Thentheytookafewdaystocomehome

23:30 butwealleverymornin’andthatandlateatnightwe’doutlookin’forAustralia.Everybitalandwesaw,“IsthatAustralia?”“No.”Somelittleislandofsomedescription.Anyhowcomin’downandearlyonemornin’oneoftheblokesspottedablockorablobonthehorizonandsangouttothesailors,“IsthatAussie?”“Yeahthat’ssome,”itwassomewhereupnorthsomewhereandthenheforsomeunknownreasontoustheninsteadof

24:00 sailin’downtherehehadtogoouttoseafurther.I’veoftenthoughtafterwardswhetheritwastheCoralSea,ornotCoralSea,CoralReeforwhatitwasbutanyhowhehadtogoouttoseaandwethought,“Ohno,where’shegoin’?”AnyhowwelandedinSydneythenontheSaturdaythe13thofOctober1945.Sothenthat’swhenourtroublesstarted.Itoldyouaboutthatontheconvoysandthingslikethat.Wellwhenwewentdownoffthegangplank

24:30 GordonBennettwasstandin’atthebottomandeverybodystoppedandshookhandswithhimandthenDadandMumandthemostofthefamilyrightatthebottomandsoIgivethemthetwokitbagsIhad,oneofclothingonefulloftobaccoandcigarettesandsaidtoDad,“Youlookafterthese?”Sohetook’em,theyput’emintheutilityandwehadalltogetonthebus

25:00 andgoouttoIngleburncamp.WentouttheretheydidtheusualX-raysandmedicaltests,andoncethatwasdonetheysaid,“Right.Gotoyourfamily.You’reallonthreeweeks’leave.We’llhaveyoubackinthreeweeks.”Sowemettherestathefamilyandgotintotrouble.TheywereallthereandI’mmeetin’thisone

25:30 andthatoneandthebrothersaregoin’IcometothesisterandIandacourseshewasonlyakid,fourteenwhenIwentawayandIsaidtomeoneofmebrothers,“Oharen’tyagonnaintroducemetoyourgirlfriend?”andthesisterburstintotears.“Hedoesn’tknowme.”causeyouseeshe’dgrownintoafairlybigwomanbythenandit’sbeenabugbeareversincewithher.Shejustbutthat’spartafamilylife

26:00 andanywaywestoppedinthecitythatnightandnextdaywesetoffintheutilityinthebackoftheutilitytogobackbush,StuartTownonthefarm.GotbacktherethatafternoonrightoutonthefarmandthemailwasonlyonTuesdaysandWed,TuesdaysandFridaysgoin’outandontheTuesdaythistelegramcomewiththemail,

26:30 “ReportbacktoSydneyimmediately.Mix-upinpapers.”SoIsaid,“OhwellImightaswellgetitoveranddonewith.”SoonFridayIgotthetrainwentbacktoSydney.TheyputmestraightinConcordHospitalwithTB.Theyknewnothin’aboutit.Whattodowithit.ItwasallastrangethingtoalotoftheAustraliandoctors.Somehadthistreatment,somehadthatandbutanyway

27:00 andguesswhatwehadforteaonthefirstnight?Thesweetswehadboiledrice.Idonethecruet.Isaid,“I’mnoteatin’it,”andthisSisterStorey,alittleshortdumpysisterthatallcheekandnothin’elseandshecomeintocheckandshesaid,“Whyaren’tyoueatin’that?”Isaid,“We’renoteatin’it.We’vehadriceforthreeandahalfyears.”“It’sgoodforya.”

27:30 Isaid,“We’renoteatin’it.”Shehadthislittlejugamilkwithit.“I’mnoteatin’it,”andablokenamedPeterRoberts,IthinkitwasPeteranywaywasontheendbedandhesaid,“NoI’mnoteatin’mineeither,”andweofcoursewewereinbed,weren’tsupposedtogetoutandIsaidtosister,“Lookforgoodnesssaketakeitaway.”Shesaid,“I’mnottakin’itaway.”Shesaid,“I’llstandheretillyoueatit.”Thatwasthefinish.Ibouncedoutabed,gotmybowlarice.

28:00 WewereuponthefifthflooratConcordHospital.530thewardwasnumbered.GotmybowlofriceandwalkedovertoPeter’sandIsaid,“Yougonnaeatyour’sPeter?”Hesaid,“Noway.”SoIgotitintheotherhandandIsaidto,“RightoSister.Yougonnatakethisback?”Shesaid,“No,”andIjustputbothhandsoutthewindowandlet’emgo.Wellshejustaboutburntthefloorgettin’outontothephone.Anywayitwasn’tlongandthisbigblokecomeupin

28:30 civvieclothesandhesaid,“I’mLieutenantColonel,”orsomehighrankin’,“Hall,”Icanrememberhissurname,“inchargeaya,”hesaidandthesistersaidshesaid,“Hedidit.He’stheone.Hedidit,”andhesaid,“Sisterjustbequietforaminute.”Hesaid,“Youtellmewhathappened.”SoItoldhim.“I’daskedherthreeorfourtimestotakeit.Threeandahalfyears

29:00 boiledrice,nothin’else,”andIsaid,“Andwhatdowegetwithourfirstnightinhere?Boiledrice.”Isaid,“Enoughtomakeamansick.”Isaid,“IjustnearlyheavedwhenIsawit,”andPeterinthecornersaid,“Andmetoo,”andhesaid,“Wellwhydidyoudropitoutthewindow?”andIsaid,“Iaskedthesistertotakeitbackandshesaidshewasn’t.Shewasgonnastandtheretillweateit.SoIjustdropped

it,”andhethoughtforawhileandhesaid,“Well

29:30 Idon’tblameya,”buthesaid,“Youdidadangerousthing.”Isaid,“Whatwasthat?”Hesaid,“Therecouldabeenpeoplewalkin’underneath,”andIsaid,“WellIneverthoughtathat.”Sothatwasourfirstepisode.Youwouldn’tcreditit,thenextdayablokenamedJackMcLellandwasinbedstraightoppositeandtherewasonlyaboutthatmuchroombetweenthefootathebedandthisAuntycomeintoseehim.

30:00 ShemustabeenabitdeafandIheardhersayin’andthat,“Andwhat’swrongwithyouJack?”realloudvoice,andhesaid,“OhIdunnoAunty.Somechesttrouble,”andshesaid,“OhIhopeit’snotthisTBthatallthesepeopleadyin’from,”andthisisafullTBwardmindyaandyoucouldhearitallroundtheward.Ohbutanywaythat’showthingswentoffandthen

30:30 theydecidedthey’dputairinthelungandcollapsethelungandthenthere’suphereinthetoptherewasalesionIthinktheycalledit.TiedthelungtothechestwallsoIhada,thatwasoperatedonearlyJanuaryandthenIgotasuddentelegramthatmebrother,Ihadn’tseenhimsinceIwentawaytothewar,

31:00 haddivedintotheriverandbrokehisneckanddrowned.SoIlookedupandthedoctorwasintheIcouldseehimthroughthewindowatthenurses’sectionwherethenursesusedtobe.SoIbangedonthetable,thetraythatgoesoverthebedtablethatthere.HelookedupandI’m

31:30 hegivemeafrownandhecomein.Hesaid,“What’stheproblem?”Isaid,“Look.Ohwhatareyagonnado?”Isaid,“WellI’vejusthadthatoperationtwodaysagoandI’mnotsupposedtostrainormoveoranythinglikesudden.Justtakeiteasy,”andheturnedandgotthesister.Hesays,“Couldyoubringthe,”orshecalledhim,that’sright,andsaid,“Couldyoubringmehis

32:00 historyfromthebooks?”Sohereaditandhesaid,“Ohwellthere’sbeennobleedin’.”Hesaid,“Youwanttogo?”andIsaid,“WellIhadn’tseenhimsinceIwentaway.”Hesaid,“Wellyoucangoifyoucanlaydowninthebackseatofthecarallthewayupandallthewayback.”SoIsaid,“Righto,”andthenthetroublepetrolwasrationedprobablygetaRedCross

32:30 promisedtotakeprisonerofwarblokesontripslikeanythingemergenciesandthingslikethatbuttheyrefusedtotakeandsoIgotontoanUncleandheputmeontoapeoplenamedSpiesthathadahirecarservice.Anyhowtheyagreedtotakeme.Soweleftintheearlyhoursofthenextmornin’allthewayuptheback.Wenttothefuneral.Backinthecarandallthewayback.Gotback

33:00 thereabouthalfpasttenatnightandguesswhocouldbeonduty?SisterStorey.Wellfromthetimeshesawmecomin’downthatpassagewaysheneverletup.Megirlfriendwaswithme.Sheyouknowanywayshesaid,“I’llgo,”andawayshewentandI’mjustsayin’,“LookSister.I’mtired.Don’tworryme.”“Youhadno

33:30 righttogo.Youcouldabeendead.Youcouldadothis,”andI’mfightin’meselfstoppin’goin’reallycrookonher.SoIgrabbedmepyjamasandwalkedupintotheshowerroomandshe’sstillfollowin’me.Iundressed,gotundertheshowerandshe’sstillgoin’crookandIcanstillremember.IreachedacrossandgotthefaceclothandIsaid,“Sister,whileyou’regoin’crook,washmybackwillya?”Wellnextminuteshewasoutthat

34:00 doorandupshestoppedthedoorandshesaid,“You’regonnabereportedforthis.You’regonnabeisolated.You’regonnadothis.You’regonna,”IandIsaid,“Ohshutup.”Hadmeshowerandwentbacktobed.Nextmornin’thedoctorthatcomeround,theonethattoldmeIcouldgo,usedtocometothatwardandhesaid,“How’dyougo?”andtoldhimwhathappened.“Righto,”hesays,“Rollover.”Hewentoverme.

34:30 “Ohno,”hesays,“Everything’sallright.”Hesaid,“YoumustadonewhatItoldyou.”Isaid,“Yeah,”andIsays,“Youwanttohearwhathappened?”Isaid,“I’mintrouble.”Hesaid,“Whatfor?”Isaid,“Youdidn’tmarkonthesheetthatIwasallowedtogo,”andIsaidItoldhimwhathappenedthenwiththesisterandeverything.Hesaid,“Don’tworry.”Hesaid,“I’llfixthat.”Nextnightwhenthesistercomeonshewasasquietasalambandthatsortathingandthenshelateronshewalkedpastandshesaid,“Don’tyoutellmetoshutupagain,”andIsaid,

35:00 “Onethingaboutlearntodoasyou’retold.”Weneverhadanymoretroubleoverthatagainbutshewasacrankylittlepiecebutanywaytheyfixedthat,wellnotfixeditbuttheyhaditdownenoughbuttheydecidedtodosomethin’aboutmeabscessthatwasonthebacksidewasoperatedinonupatTakefu.Itwasstillleakin’.Sotheyhadainvestigationandsaid,“Right.”

35:30 Togodownthesurgery.DownIwent.Theycutmefromthebackatheheadtoforehead,justonebiglonggash,andtheyputfiveandahalfyardsofimpregnatedgauzeinit.Soyoucanjustimaginethecut.Fromhighonthetailbonerightthroughheretothefrontandeverydaytheyhadtopullthatgauzeoutanddothedressingbecausetheydidn’t

36:00 wantittohealontopandnothealunderneath.Ithadtohealfromthebottomup.Welltheyusedtogivemeashotofmorphinebeforebungedtheneedleintome.DidthatfortwoorthreedaysandIstartedtofeelabitoff.Justcouldn’tfeelmeselfandIwastalkin’tooneatheblokesalongsideameandhesaid,“That’stheso-and-somorphinethey’regivin’ya.”Sothistalllankysistercomefrom,Idon’tknowwhathernameis,comefromYoung

36:30 comeinandthatshesaiddothedressingandyouhadtolayonyourbellyandtwopillowsunderyourgroinandstickyourbacksideupintheairandIsaid,“Haveyouhadanypracticepullin’theseoutsister?”andshesaid,“Ohalot,”andIsaid,“Thenwhyinsteadajustpullingandthenjerking,pullingandjerking,whycan’tyadoitinrhythm.Getholdofapiece,pullandpullandjust,”youknowIsaid,“it’llallcomeoutprettyquick.”“But,”shesaid,“Youwon’tstandthepainathatwouldn’tya?”“Well,”Isays,“It’sgonnapainanyway”

37:00 andthefirstmornin’Ibenttherowthatcomedowntheheadathebed.Armsroundit,bentthatbutafterafewminutesitdisappeared.Soeverafterthatthat’sthewayitwent.Wellthatparthealedupbutallofasuddenitgetabitwetagain.Theyhadtotakemedownanddoanotherchannelandthatwentonaboutthree,

37:30 four,threeorfourorfivetimes.ThenIwasoutbeforeitwentIfinishedinhospitalandonthe12thofDecember.ThenIwenthomeandthenlateronitwasleakin’again.TheyhadtogointhereandIdon’tknowImyreckonImustahadabouteightortenoperationsonitandthelastonewasin1957withaDoctorPullen.

38:00 He’sinWollongong.Hehadalookatitandhesaid,“Ohwell,”lookedlikeanoperation.Sohesaid,“Comedown,”inspecthiscustomersontheWednesday,dotheoperationsThursdayandgobacktoSydney.Sohesaid,“YouhavetogotoSydney,”andIsaid,“Ohcan’tIhaveitdonehere?”andhesaid,“No,”hesays,“Repatwon’tallowit.”Isaid,“Who’sgonnadoitinSydney?Hesaid,“Ohprobablyme.”“Well,”Isaid,“Don’tbeinabighurry.”Isaid,

38:30 “I’mgonnagetintouchwithrepat.”SoIwrote’emaletterstatingthatIhadnobusinessinSydneyandthewifeandthekidswerehereandIifI’dhaditdonehere.AnyhowquickanswerIgotbacktosaythatandIalsotold’emthatDoctorPullentoldmethatmorethanlikelyhe’dbedoin’it.Quickanswercomethatthetheycouldn’tguaranteeabedbutifIcouldgetabedintheWollongongHospitalthey’ddoit.WellI’dbeenthereforawhileandIknewalotofthemfromupatthehospital.SoIwentupthere

39:00 andtoldthesisterwhatthesetupis.“Oh,”shesaid,“We’llarrangethat.”Sotheycontactedshesaid,“CouldyoubereadyThursday?”Isaid,“Icouldbereadyatamoment’snotice.”SoshetheycontactedPulleninSydneyandthenonWednesdayIhadtobeinthereandforhimtoexaminemeandThursdaydidtheoperation.IwasinhospitalforaweekandwenthomeandthenextweekIwentintoseehimcheckoverandhesays,

39:30 “Uhuh.It’snothealed.”Hesaid,“I’llfixitthistime.”Hesaid,“I’llputamincin’machinein.”Isaid,“Whatthehell’sthat?”Hesaid,“I’llputsomethin’inthere,”andhesaid,“I’llgrinditin.”Hedidthat.IthealedupandtouchwoodIhaven’thadnotroubleeversinceandthat’s1957,September1957.So

Soyouweren’tfullyrecoveredfromyourprisonerexperienceuntilthen?

No,welleventhenI’vebeenbackandforwardsintohospitalandforthisforandtheother

40:00 thingandhowthewifemanagedIneverknowbutthat’sthepartofit.Somostlyit’sohIsupposeagetroublesnowandthingslikethat.Haemorrhagingandsono,Ithinkit’smostofmewarlotit’stroublearthritisandstomachtroublesandthingslikethatthroughmalnutritionand

40:30 soIcan’ttheymademeTPI[TotallyandPermanentlyIncapacitatedPensioner]soI’vegottoputupwiththatandIcan’tgobacktothelandalthoughIgotmemate’splaceandhelpout.Notdoin’hardworkbutjustpotterin’aroundthebushandthat’sthewayIgottadoit.

Doyoueatricetoday?

Yeah,nowIdobutit’sneverboiledrice.Notplainboiledrice.

Tape9

00:31 WhenyouwereinTakefuandthewarwascomingtoanendinthoselastcoupleofdays,didyounoticeanychangeintheattitudeoftheguards?

No.Nowedidn’tbecausewehadnovirtualcontactwiththeoutsideworldoutsideJaps.Justtheoddoneatthefactorythathadtobecareful.Theywouldn’ttalkmuchwithyoubecausethenthey’dgetbashed,andtheguards

01:00 andwellwekeptasfarawayfromtheguardsaswecouldbecauseforsomethin’todoamusethemselvesyou’dgetabashingifyouweren’tcareful.Sotheideawastokeepawayatthetopendofthecompoundoutoftheroad.

Andhowdidtheirattitudechangeonceitbecamecertainthewarhadfinished?

Wellsomeofthemchangedprettyquicklybuta

01:30 fewofthemjustshotthrough.Iwesurmisedthey’dwenthome.That’swhatgavetheofficersanidea,nottheofficersthedoctorandthesergeant,thatitmustabeentruewhensomeofthemhadshot

through.Theusualnumberofguardsweren’ttherebutasfarastheattitude,theonlyonewasthiscruelso-and-soandhewasgonnaberealdogmaticrighttillthefinishuntilthesergeanttooktherifleoffhim.

Whatfeelingsdidyouhavehearingthat

02:00 thewarhadended?

Wellthatfeeling’dbehardtoit’shardtodescribeforthesimplereasonyoufeltoneofrelief.Oneof,“Wellweshouldn’tbehungryanymore,”butthenwestillhadnofood.Wedidn’tknowtheYanksweregonnadropfood.Howweweregonnagetfromheretohome.“Does

02:30 anyoneknowwhereweare?”causeupinJapanyouwouldn’thaveacluewhethertheyknewwherewewereorwhatyouknowandallthesesortathingscrossedmymind.Wetalkedaboutthisandtalkedaboutthatandtalkedaboutbuyin’pubsandclosin’thedooranddrinkin’’emoutandallthistypeathingbutitwasjustoneasthoughabigweighthadbeenliftedoffyou,putitthatway.

Whatfeelingsofvengeancedidyouhaveagainsttheguards?

Wellactuallywehadnone

03:00 becausewe’dallhadadoptedtheattitudenottolowerourselvestotheircategory.Thethatwaywereckoniftheygaveusanycheekormoretriedmorebashin’mightgive’emsomethin’butasitwas,finished.Theonesthatthecruelblokesmainlyinourcamptheyhadhim

03:30 andtheyknewthathe’dgettheirormatteroffactIweheardmanyyearsafterthathewasonethatwashung.SoandalsotootherewasinOsaka(UNCLEAR)usandtheywerebothcruel.Accordingtotherecordstheywerebothhung.IreadthatinohsomebookIgotinthelibraryonthatthere.So

Wasthatjustified?

Morethanjustified.Shouldahappenedyearsbefore.

04:00 Wouldasavedalotofusandalotofbadtimesandinjuriesandseetheythey’dbeltyaacrossthestomach,acrosstheback,inthegroinnomatterwhereandactuallyIsemiblamesomeathosehidin’sforalotofmydeafnessbecausetheycanputamachineonmeandtheysay,“That’shearin’,”butyourthat’sitsayssobutit’snot.I

04:30 saidtodocaboutit,“WellofcourseIwasknockedunconsciouswitha(UNCLEAR)hitwithitatTakefu,”andthenIwasblownoverwhenthebombingatLewangandthere’snosayin’thatinthatalsoIwasImustabeenknockedunconsciouswhenIfelloverinthejungleandcomin’backwhentheytoldusitwasontheisland,onSingaporeIsland.

05:00 Sothere’snosayin’thatIdonesomedamagetherebutthey’djustwalkupbehindyouwithathatbigwaddyanditdidn’tmatterwhethertheheadorneckormiddleofthebackbutthefavouriteonewasacrossthekidneysasfarashittin’youconcernedandsothere’snothingtosaywhichhascausedit.Ithinkit’sjustapercentageofeachandonetheretheotheronebutI’vejustlearnedtoputupwithitandthat’sjustsowhatyougottado.

05:30 WhatsortoffoodwasdroppedbytheAmericans?

Tinnedallthetinnedstuff.Meatsandvegetablesandfruityoucouldthinkof.Energychocolates,chocolates.Younameit,itwasalldropped.Allbrandsofcigarettes.Anyfoodyoucoulditwasjustdroppedinthesetinsandanythatwasbustedwehadtoget

06:00 ridofquickbecausewiththatsortastuffoncetheairgetsatitifitdoesn’tgetoutofthetin,thetinsfermentitandthat’sit.Sotherewasthatmuchfood,welltheysaidforfivehundredandtherewasonlytwohundredofusthere,so

Wasithardtodisciplineyourselfnottostuffitalldown?

YeahwellifyoureadthatpoemthatIgotinthere,ElAlamein.“Theytooktothecon[convalescent]campwheretherewasfoodgalore,butnomatterhowmuchIateIalwayscravedformore”

06:30 andwhatremindedmeofthat,whenthewifewaspregnantwiththekids.Shehadacravin’forsomethin’andI’djustsaytoher,“Ohcutthatout.IdidthatinthePhilippineIslandswhenwe’dgetthefood.Youalwayscravedformore.Youdon’twantthat,”andthatImeanthat’sapartofthosething.

Youmentionedbeforethatthedoctorhadtosetupsomesortofsystemtorationthefoodsopeopledidn’tgetsickfromeatingtoomuch.

07:00 Dideverybodyobeythat?

Yes.Theyhadtobecausethedoctorcomeroundperiodically.You’dneverknowwhenhe’dcomeroundandhe’dcheckthelistandyouhadtoputthenamedownofwhathegotof,putdownwhathegot,hisnameandwhohewassharingitwithandthatstoppedsomeofthosethathewassharingitwithcomin’backandsayin’,“WellIdidn’tgetany.”Sothiswayyoukeptafullcontrolandhedidthatandhetoldusstraight,

07:30 “Ifyouwanttogethomethisisyourchancenowbutifyouwanttogethomedoitthiswayandyou’llgetbackintotrim.Ifyoudon’tdothisyou’rejustaslikelytobustyourstomachandoncethat’sbusted,”hesaid,“Icandonothin’aboutit.”SoImeanallofourladswithoutexceptiontooknoticeofit.Theyalltheywereallages.Therewasaboutfivedifferentagegroupsinus.Someof’emwereonly

08:00 didn’tturntwentyonetillaftertheygothomeandonebloketurnedhewaswayupinhissixtiesandheputhisage,wellhewasarejectintheFirstWorldWarsoyoucanyoucangetanidea.SoImeanthissortofthing.

WhatabouttheAmericans?Didtheyrationthefoodaswell?

Theyhadtobecausethedocwasincharge.Hewasthehighestsenioronethereandtheyhadtobutthenwedidn’thavemuchtrouble

08:30 withthembecausetheywereonlythereacoupleadaysafterthefooddropbeforetheYankspicked’emupandtook’emtookthemoutandalltheywereinterestedinwastakingtheirownmenoutandtellingusthattheywe’dbepickeduplateryouknow.Sothat’sthewaytheyworkedonit.

Andwhenyouwentoutforwalksfromthecamp,wheredidyougoto?

OhvirtuallyanywheretosomeofthemwentintothetownbutIdidn’t.Afew

09:00 ofuswejustroamedroundthecountrysideandneverrunintoanyJaps.We’dseeaJapbutiftheyseeuscomin’they’dgetawayouttatheroadandwe’droamgetouttatheouttathatcompound.Justroamsometimesweonlyjustmovedoutandroamroundthebigopenpaddockalongsideofus.Sometimeswemightwalkacoupleamilethatwayandturnandcomebackbutityouvirtuallyhard

09:30 toputit,butyouhadtodosomethingtojustsittin’therethinkin’andwhileyou’rewalkin’youcouldstillthinkifyouwantedtobutyourtheactionwasadifferenttowhatjustsittin’therethinkin’youknowandsothat’swhathappenedwell.

DidyourunintoanyJapanesecivilians?

Youdidbutyoudidn’ttalk.Theykeptouttatheroad.TheyIthinktheywerelikeus.Theydidn’tknowwhatwasgonnahappen.Whetherweweregonnatakerevengeon’emorwhat.Sowhentheysawuscomingthey’d

10:00 keepoutofourroad.They’dgowhichwayorthatwayouttatheroadbutrightonthefinishjustbeforeweleftTakefuafewofthecivilianmobfromroundthefactoryandthat,theywerefairlyfriendly.Someoftheboysthatworkedatthefactorywalkedoutofthefactorycausethatallstoppedwork.Theywalkedoutthefactoryandseensomeoftheblokesthathadbitfriendlywithandsothatthat’swhenwewereloadin’thefoodup.Wegotsomeofthemtocomeinand

10:30 pickupafewthingsaslongastheydidn’ttaketoomuchandwellwedidn’ttheydidn’tbecausewejustdoledouttothemwhattheywewantedthemtohavebecauseweknewthatifweturnedaroundandgave’emplentythenthey’dgiveittosomeoftheirmatesandtheirmates’dbeallaroundthenallofasuddenwe’dhaveawholehoardofJapsintheregivin’ustroublesothat’swhatwehadtodo.Imeanwealsowegavethemquiteafewcigarettesandstufflikethatbecausetheywerehadvirtuallyhadneverhadmuchofthem

11:00 atall.

HowdoyoufeelaboutJapanesepeopletoday?

Becareful.Idon’tmeanthatB-E-Eeither.No,II’vehadtomeet’em.I’vehadtotalkto’emandIcan’tdon’tstopwith’emasmuchasIwouldanybodyelse.I’dmoveaway.Togiveyouafunnyexampleathat,

11:30 inJune2000yep,onetwofouryeah,IwonafreetripupontheIndianPacific.SothewifeandIdecidedwe’dgoover.WellIwonitbackearlyintheyear.Sowedecidedwe’dgooverinJuneandofcourseifyou’veeverbeenontheIndianPacificorknowanythingaboutit,

12:00 it’sacosmopolitantrain.YouhavepeoplefromeverynationintheworldgetontoitandonthisonetherewastworealoldJapanesewomenandayoungeronethatwasin,I’dsayinherthirties,mightbeabitmoreandtheyhadacabintothemselvesandinthisbigloungeroomthey’doftencomeintothereandIsortajustkeptawayand

12:30 onedaytherewastheonlyseatvacantwasnearthem.Kathgotsatovertherewithoneofthewomentalkin’andnearthemandshementionedthatandIjustwentandwalkedawayandupthetopandstoodup.ThenwegottoCookovertheNullarborPlainandthetrainpullsupthereforawhileforsouvenirsandIsupposewaterorsomethin’,Idon’tknow.

13:00 AnywayKathwasinlookin’roundthesouvenirshopsandIjustwalkedupandJune,itwascold,andIjustwalkedupanddown,althoughitwassunshine,upanddownoutsidethetrain.It’sadamnlongtrainandwhileI’mwalkin’upanddownIcomeintoagoodpatchasunandIstoodtherewarmin’meselfandthesethreeJapanesewomencomedown,walkin’down,andallofasudden

13:30 thisJapanesegirlcomeovertome.She’sgotacamerainherhand.“You.Camera.”Isaid,“Yeah,”Isaid,“I’lltakeyourphoto.”Shesaid,“No,no,no.”Shesaid,“You,”andpointedtothesetwooldladiesandwantedonetostandeachsideofmewhileshestoodupagainstthetrainandtookaphotoofusandIthought,“Hell.”

14:00 “Ohallright.”SotheystoodalongsideameandImade’emhandsdownatmesidesandstoodthereandallofasuddenithitme.Istartedtolaughandsheputthecameradownandshelookedatme.PutthecameraupandIcouldn’tstopme.Anyhowshetookthephotoandshecomeovertomewithafrown.Theothertwowalkedaway.Soshe’dsaidsomethin’tothemandshe

14:30 givemeasortofaqueerlookandIsaid,“You’rewonderingwhyIlaughed,”andshesaid,“Yeah.”Isaid,“Iwasaprisonerofwarinyourcountry,”andIsaid,“Ifmyblokesandmymatescouldseemeheredoin’this,”Isaid,“they’dgetthegreatestlaughoutorI’dprobablygetthegreatestbashin’out,”andshelookedatme,“No,noprisonerofwarinJapan,”andIsaid,“Igotnewsforyou,sister.Iwasone,”

15:00 andIwalkedaway.NowthatnightIwassittin’ontheseatsintheloungecar.Beenupfortea.Sittin’thereandsheturnedroundandIsensedthatsomeonewasstarin’youknowandIsatdown.ItwasherandasIlookedupshesaid,“Oh.”“C’mon.”SoIsaid,“Ohyoucan’tputonabitofasceneinthetrainwiththewholelot

15:30 round.Allright.”Kathsays,“Goon,getoverthere.”SoIsoIwentoverandsatbetweenthesetwooldladiesandthiswomansatonthearmathelounge,biglounge.Shesaid,“YouprisonerofwarJapan.”Isaid,“Yes.”Shesaid,“No.”Isaid,“Yeah.(UNCLEAR–speakingJapanese),”andshewent,openedhereyes.That’scountingonetoteninJapanese.“Me.

16:00 Meoki.”That’ssickandshelookedatme,“Where?”Isaid,“Osaka.Takefu.”“Osaka?”Isaid,“Yeah.Takefu,”andIpulledmenotebookoutandwroteitT-Aandlookedatit.“Oh.Oh.”See.Thensheyappedtothosetwoandthey’reshakin’theirheadandlookin’atmeandshakin’theirhead,lookin’atmeandthenshesaid,“Oh.Oh.Wesorry.”

16:30 Isaid,“YeahsoamI,”andgotupandwalkedoverandsatdownandImeanthat’sonething.Waybackin1984or1985Iwentover.ThewifeandIwentoverandtherewasaPommyparliamentarianonthetrainandthisisgoingover…

Overtowhere?

17:00 Perth.FromSydneytoPerthandonthetrainandI’mstandin’there,whichIdointrainsandlookin’outthewindow.Imeanifthere’sseatsthereI’llsitbutwhenthere’salottajustlookatthecountrysideandpickoutthekangaroos.SothisPommyblokecomeoverandhesaid,“YouAustralian?”Isaid,“Yes.”

17:30 Hesaid,“OhI’mfromEngland.”Isaid,“Yes,Iknow.”Couldtellbyhisvoice.Youcouldn’t(UNCLEAR).Hesaid,“IthoughtI’dseesomekangaroos,”andIandhesaid,“There’snone.”Isaid,“Ohdon’tbesilly.Comeouthere.”Sohe’supnearthewindowandIsaid,“There,look.There’sone.Seehishead?”“Nah.Ican’tseeit,”andIsaid,“Look,”causethetrainhadtravelledalongafairbit,“There’sanotheronethere.”Thenextminutetheonethatwastherehoppedup.“Oh,”

18:00 hesaid,“Ialwaysthoughtthatkangaroosmoved.”Youknowhowninetimesoutoftenthey’rekangarooshoppin’.Isaid,“No,”andhe’sthenhesaid,“Oh,”startedtopick,“There’sanotherone.”AnyhowIheardthisJapanesevoicecomebehindmeandhesaid,“Nokangaroo,”andIlookedathimandI,“ShutupPopey,”andIandthePommysaidtohim,“Yeah,”hesaid,“Look,there’sone,”andhesaid,“No.”“See,see,

18:30 they’reuptherelikethat.Hisears,”and,“Ohyeah.”HelookedatmeandthePommysaid,“Icouldn’tsee’emuntilthisAustralianhere,”hesaid,“toldme,”andheturnedtomeandhesaid,“Ah,”hesaid,“Yougood.Youlivehere?”“Ohyeah,”Isaid,“IliveupinTamworth,”andhestartedyappin’.Isaid,“No.”HelookedandIsaid,“Iwasaprisonerofwar

19:00 inyourcountry,”andhestraightenedup.Hesays,“Therewasnoprisonerofwarinmycountry.I’mJapanese,”andIsaid,“Iknowyouare.”Hesaid,“I’maprofessor.”Hesaid,“Iteachatschool.”“Well,”Isaid,“LearnyourEnglish.”No,“Learnyourhistory.”Isaid,“Iwasaprisonerofwarupthere,”andItoldhimwhereIwas.WhatplacesIwasin.Helookedatmeandhesaid,“Oh.Mycountry?

19:30 Iwenttoschoolthere.Wentrightthroughhighlearningtobeaprofessor.”Hesaid,“Inotknownothin’.”Hesaid,“Thatiswrong.”Hesaid,“WhenIgotbackoSydneyIwillgototheconsulinSydneyandfindoutalltheinformationIcan,”andthewaytheyspeak,shortsharpandIsaid,“Good,”andIturnedandwalkedaway.ImeanI’vehadthatexperiencewith’embutIdon’t…

Sowhat’syouropinionofthefactthatthisaspectofhistoryisstillnottaughtinJapaneseschools

20:00 eventoday?

Ijustkeepmemouthshutandjustshakemeheadinbloodywonder.Welltheyreckontheygottotradebutwhenwe’dcomeoutoftheprisonerofwarcamp,orevenbefore,whenthewarwasfinishedtheJapstheresays,eveninYokohama,theysay,“WeownAustraliainfiftyyears,”andallduerespects,

20:30 that’smorethanfiftyyearsbuttheyjustaboutownitnow.There’snotanydayinAustraliathatthere’snotthousandsofwelltrainedJapaneseinAustralia.Soallthey’vegottadoisbringashiploadofarmsin.They’vegotcontrolofmostofthekeypositionsandtheycouldjusttakeAustraliajustlikethatbutifaJapaneseisnotsmilingyoutrusthim.Ifhesmiles,

21:00 lookout.

Howdidyourmentalthementalandphysicaleffectsofyourimprisonment,howdidtheyaffectyouinyourpost-warcareer?

PhysicallyIcan’tdomuchatallbecauseoffirstly,thearthritisintheknees.Thekneesarebad.They’vebeentalkin’foryearsaboutgivin’menewkneesbutatmyageIdon’twantit.

21:30 Itakepainkillerseverynowandagain.Mentally,wellit’shardtosay.PeoplesayI’madullheadandpeoplesaythispeoplesayIdon’tgiveacontinentalwhatpeoplesayaboutme.Idoitmyway.Ishootstraightfromtheshoulderandifpeopledon’tlikeittheycanlumpit.

Haveyouhadanyeffectsoflikenightmaresandsoforth?

Ohyeah.Yeah.Notsobadnow.

22:00 IwilladmitIhadonetheothernightandthere’snosayin’thatIwon’thaveoneoverthisbutthey’renotthatvicious.We’donlybeenmarriedashortwhile,can’tremembernow,andonenightInearlychokedthewifeinamadnightmarebutluckilysheknewwhattodoandknewwhatwasdoin’.ShegavemeahellofapunchandwokemeupandIhadherbythethroat.

22:30 SoImeanthey’repartofit.Ithadn’tgotthatbadandnevergotthatbadafterwardsbutImeanyoucan’tforget.Icouldbewatchin’somethin’andsomethin’llcropupandI’llgetupandwalkawaybecauseit’ssomeofthesethingsI’vegotinthere,whenIgot’emIcouldn’tread’em.Ionlyread’eminthislastoohtwelvemonthsandthere’sacoupleIhaven’tevencompletelyreadyet

23:00 becauseitsoonasIstarttofeelthataffectin’meIgetupandwalkaway.

Andhowhasorganisingthereunionsandkeepingintouchwithyourfriendshelpedyou?

Itgavemeaaninterest.ItkeepsthebondshipgoingthatI’vegotwithmyfriends.Istarteddoin’welfarewaybackin1947andIknockedoffhereacoupleayearsago

23:30 andthatiswhat’shelpedmemoreorlessalongthesameroutineasitwasintheprisonerofwarcamp.I’lladmitI’vebeeninthisandI’vebeeninthatandI’monwiththerightsfordisablednowandI’mwelfareofficerforSydneybranchoftheTPIuphere.I’montheCommitteeOrderoftheofOldBastards.I’mpresidentoftheprisonerofwargroupthat’shere,that’snearlydefunctbecausethere’sonlyaboutfourofusleftinTamworthandtheotherthreeareprettysick.

24:00 SoImean,Ikeepmeselfbusyandoccupied.UntilmearmsandhandswentbadIusedtoplayalotofbowls.I’mhopin’togetbackintoitthenextfewweekswhenthesefinishhealin’upproperlybutinasense,andI’llsaythisandI’vesaiditnotoncemanyatime,myexperienceofgoingthroughthearmy,theprisonerofwarlifeandthathasgave

24:30 meabetterunderstandingofhumannatureandwhathumanswilldoandwon’tdo.ThereasonthatdidwasbecauseIwas,ohIwon’tsayoneofthefew,butIwaswayoutinthecountry.Isolated.Didn’tgototownsometimesformonthsonendbecauseyouhadtorideahorseandontopathatyouwereworkin’toohardontheonyourownnotyourownproperty,Dad’sproperty,andit’s

25:00 myupbringingthatyouworkedbeforedaylightandafterdark.SoImeanyaandthat’swhytheylaughatmemywife,Kath,usedtolaughatmewithwomen.EvennowII’mIwon’tsaysomuch,shy,butI’mverycarefulwherewomenareconcerned.TheyI’velaughedthey’velaughedatme.I’vesteppedbackfromadoor,wellhereonlastFriday

25:30 thebrothercomeoverfromDubbo.He’sgotagrandsonatdoin’theTAFE[TechnicalandFurtherEducationinstitution]uphereandhehadtopickhimuptotakehimbacktoDubbo.Sowe’regoin’alongandthebrotheropenedthedoorandasheopenedthedoorinthispassagewayIheardthispatterbehindmeandIglancedandthere’sawomancomin’andIsayshesayslatetwentiestomidthirties,inthatbracket,andIhadthedooropenandshesaid,“Yougoin’in?Isaid,“No.Womenfirst,”andletherinandshegivemea

26:00 queerlookandopenedhermouth.Isaid,“Don’tsayanything.”Isaid,“It’sIwasbroughtupthatway,”andIsaid,“Istilldoit,”butshegivemesuchaqueerlookasthoughImightabeenalunaticorsomethin’.

Whydoyouthinkthatyousurvivedwhenothersdidn’t?

Threethings.Thatblokeupthere,he’stakenmeoutof

26:30 averylotofnumerousfairlydangerousplacesforsomeunknownreason.Thewilltoliveandnotdieinthatcountryandmymotherandmewife,ormegirlfriend,andthosearethethreethingsthatkeptmeandtheycansaywhattheylike.TherewastimesinthewarwhenIdoubtedwhethertherewas

someoneupthere.Idon’tcare

27:00 howreligiousyouareorifyouareornot,doesn’tworryme,butthere’ssomethin’that’sguidedmenotoncebutheapsatimesthroughlifethat’sgotmeoutofdanger.I’mnotblamin’meselfforitbecauseIhadnocontrol.Wheredoyougo?Idon’tknowifthatanswersyourquestionbutit’saboutthebestIcando.

Whydoyouthinkthatit’simportantAustraliaremembersthePOW[prisonerofwar]experience?

27:30 Welltheyshouldneverletithappenagain.Theywon’tadmittheydidwrong.Wewentunderovertherenotafullbattal,notafulldivision.TheotherdivisionwasinDarwin,otherbrigadeinDarwin.Verypoorlyarmedandnoaircraft.Soitjustshowsyouthatwewere

28:00 overthereandthat’sfaraswe’reconcerned.Theytalkabout,andI’mnotshirtyonthis,buttheytalkaboutVietnamdiggersandVietnam,theVietnamboyswentovertherethebestarmedlottasoldiersthateverleftAustralia.Imeantheirwarwasfoughtdifferently,certainly,butattimeswehadoneautomaticweapontoahundred,ahundredandtwentymenandasIsay,Icomebackoffthemain

28:30 landtherewas.303andfiveroundsofammunition.Whatwasthegoodofthatinaction?Youhadajobtofindoutwheretogetammunition.Everythingcomebackinaturmoilandweweregrosslyunder,wellweweren’tundertrainedbutwewereunderequipped.Justbecausetheythoughtthatnoone’dcomedownthemainland,they’dhavetocomefromthesea,thatwasitbutI’dsaythis,that

29:00 Australiainitspresentpositionshouldalwayshaveafairlygoodarmy,navyorairforcebecausethat’sitsgreatestprotectionandit’ssomethin’thatisvital.Idon’tcarepeoplesay,“OhI’mnotyou’reawarmonger.”I’mnotawarmonger.You’vegottobeprepared.You’vegottabeready.That’sit.

Andifsomebodywaswatching

29:30 thisinthefuture,whatmessagewouldyougivetothemaboutservingyourcountry?

Itisthebestcountryintheworld.YoucanliveinAustraliaandhavesayalmostasmuchasyoulikeanytimeyoulikewithoutbeingcaughtfortreason.It’syourcountry,beproudofitandfightforit.Ifyoucanfightoverseasdoit.It’llstopthemcoming

30:00 butforgoodnesssaketryandstopthemfromfightin’inAustraliabecausewardoesalotofdamagetociviliansaswellasothers.SoImeanit’sbein’patrioticIknowbutatthesametimethat’smyfeelingsandItellyanow,evenwhatIwentthrough,ifwarbrokeouttomorrowandIcouldhelpinitIwould.That’sthewayIfeelbecauseyoufightitoverthere

30:30 butthesepeoplethattrywarmongerin’won’tdonothin’andtrydownthemonarchy.They’reallmadfarasI’mconcerned.That’sit.

AndwhatareyouhowdoyoufeelwhenyouseeAustraliansgoingtowarthesedaysonthenewstoIraqandsoforth?

Isaygoodon’em.Keepitoverthere.KeepitoutofAustralia.Thateverybittheydothere

31:00 isinalottawaysprobablyalotofthemunseen,helpingAustralia.They’rekeepin’theterroristsdown.They’rekeepin’themselveswellequipped.They’rekeepin’themselveswelltrainedandthosepeoplewouldmakegoodtrainingtroopswhenifanything’shappenedthattheyhadtoformanewone.TheonlythingthatIsay

31:30 aboutAustraliathattheyshouldbringinconscription.Itwouldtakealotofthesehoodlumsoffthestreets.Ifyou’reonthedoleiftheyput’eminthearmyforashortwhile,navyorairforceforashortwhilethey’dlearndisciplineandthere’dbelesstroubleandstrifeinAustraliatodayandI’mtalkin’aboutbothmenandwomen.