Emails to Brahmachari

8/8/2019 Emails to Brahmachari

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What is the cause of the Living entities entanglement and strife in this world? Is it

ignorance or his voluntary unwillingness to serve Supreme Lord Sri Krsna? Is it possible

or the soul being spiritual in Nature to have material desires? A murderer kills sleeping

beggars on the street and says that it was by the divine inspiration of Providence? Can

he in one sense be right? Does Christianity have anything in common with Sanatana

Dharma These issues are being dealt with in the following debate. To find out more.

Read on

What follows is a philosophical discussion between Akincana Krsna Dasa (Akd) andBhushan Kotnis a student practicing the Krsna Consciousness philosophy in the U.S.A.

Kotnis challenges the Gita philosophy presented in the website

http://cbdvashiiskcon.blogspot.com.

Please don't confuse between the Names Baladeva Vidya Bhushan (Gaudiya Vaishnava

Acarya) and the student Bhushan Kotnis. They are two different personalities altogether.

Akd's replies are colored. When two colors appear in the same mail they are his quotesfrom previous mails quoted by Bhushan Kotnis.

Hare Krsna.

**********Akd writes to Bhushan*************Hope this mail finds you in the best of health and K.C. Long time no communication So Ithought I will send you this link. - http://cbdvashiiskcon.blogspot.com. It is of theprogram I am taking on the B.G systematically verse by verse.

E-mails to a Brahmachary

KalpatararuCo-operativeHousingSociety

CommunityHall

Sector8-B

CBDBelapurNaviMumbai


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Hare Krsna and all the best.Akincana Krsna Dasa

*********** Akd's replies to Bhushan Kotnis' mail in Red***********Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Thank you for your email, I am pleased to hear about the program you are conducting atVashi. In NYC we also have a Gita Sutras class divided into three levels conducted byRasanath Prabhu and his team. I would like to share something about how they share theGita for Americans.

It all started when Rasanath Prabhu was in Cornell doing his MBA. He was giving Gitaclasses and one time he gave Bhagavad Gita As it Is to a female student. Some days latershe returned the Gita with a bitter mail because she couldnt digest the some of thepurports by Srila Prabhupada on women. So he started thinking how to culturallytranslate the message in this post modern era especially in USA.

In the Gita Sutras they have formed an innovative approach. They use examples fromwestern philosophers Freud, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche etc also lot of stuff from NY Times,experiences in Business Schools, corporate world, documentaries, and movies.

Hare Krsna. Thank Krsna that in India I don't have to read these philosophies to preach.Most of the Indians appreciate the talk if we directly speak from the Gita and theMahabharata. They in fact find it very interesting. This is one of the advantages for apreacher in India. He has the luxury to dive deep into the Vedic literatures directly andcan also get a huge audience to come and listen to you.

The western world was shaped by these western thinkers and they communicate to the

students how the thoughts in Bhagavad Gita were also echoed by these personalities.Rasanath Prabhu also writes articles for the Huffington Post, I found them interesting

I checked the website. Nice design and content. Fit for the western audience. In fact ithardly looks like a Hare Krsna or any other typical religious website. Real hard work.

Also one of the significant aspects in his classes his dissecting the human psyche, whatare our motivations, why do we do things the way we do. This is something everybodycan relate to. The last Bhagavatham class we discussed about how we have this "hero"

nature and need for validation ingrained in all of us.


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Here we analyze the psyche of Arjuna from the Bhagavad Gita directly from the Acaryascommentaries. The different reasons Arjuna gives for not fighting etc. It makes justexcellent preaching material.

However the most important part of his classes is vulnerability. I.e making everythingpersonal.

This is very important. Bhakti Caru Maharaj gives the formula to preach. About 60% love,15% Prasad, 10% kirtan, 5% philosophy, and 10% everything else in ISKCON which isresponsible to make a devotee. People are hardly philosophical these days. I mean doesit take philosophy to engage in drug alcohol and other forms of addictions. Still majoritypeople engage in it unrestrictedly. So it is the experience they are looking for. And apleasurable one.

Sharing how has Bhakti affected me? Sharing openly the defects in myself and how I amstruggling against them. This takes a lot of courage and its very powerful. He openly

shares his anarthas, his fall downs, his struggles and his victories and thus creates a veryopen a non judgemental atmosphere where everyone else can be open. This is verypowerful.

Wow. That really takes courage. Like His Holiness Radhanath swami has done in his book,the journey home. Narada also tells Vyasa about his fall down from a demigod Gandarva

named Upabarana to become a sudra in his past life. So this is a bonafide method topreach given in the Srimad Bhagavatham originally initiated by Sage Narada.

.I read your article on chapters 3 and 4 on activity. I have some comments about thearticle. From the article it seems that if you do devotional service properly (i.e withactivity) then one will get good material results. Just like the IIT student who topped. Youalso mentioned some qualifications (University degree etc) required for being aBrahmachary and thus kind of portrayed that Brahmachary/Spirituality is not someescapism.

In one sense I think spirituality is escapism in the sense that we want to escape from

material anxieties, suffering etc. And materialists also want to escape from miseries, butthey look externally and find simply band aids rather than getting to the root anddestroying it once and for all. The spiritualist thinks of the permanent solution while

materialists are less intelligent and think of stop gap measures.

So in that particular devotee from his replay about chanting it seems he took chanting asan external solution so that chanting was just some external adjustment for him. Andprobably he took that due to the mood of passion and things in mode of passion nevergive good results. The principle of chanting is correct, but he misapplied it. But we also

see devotees who applied that principle properly and one of the best examples of this isHG Aindra Prabhu.


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A preacher can argue from both sides. It depends on from which reference point he isdiscussing. For eg. Arjuna wanted to quit fighting. And there is no denying the historical

fact that Krsna engaged him in fighting. He wanted to escape, isn't it?Yes but Krsna also gave him the solution to escape the problems of fighting a war whichhe so badly wanted to avoid. He told him the process of Bhakti yoga. So this is escapism.Isn't it.

I read an article of Sacinandana Swami (His articles are very profoundhttp://bhakticollective.com/2010/01/09/focus-on-the-essential-and-escape-the-tyranny-of-the-one-thousand-urgent-things/ ) in which he dissected the reason for our businessand attachment to activity. We are busy with 10,000 little things just to keep the fear ofdeath away.Restlessness and activity which clouds the intelligence is in the mode of passion and suchactivity is useless.

In fact to sit in one place and be completely aware/mindful and do nothing is not possiblefor those in the mode of passion.I quote from one of his (HH SNS) articles.

The French mathematician Blas Pascal once wrote: All mans miseries derive from notbeing able to sit quietly in a room alone.

Lord Krsna in the B.G and Prahlad Maharaja in the Bhagavatham and S.P refute BlasPascal.B.G 3.5 - Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired

rom the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something,

not even for a moment.

SP Quote: We saw a signboard in a yoga society in Los Angeles that said You becomesilent, and youll become God. And here Krsna says that you cannot become silent even

or a moment.

Lec BG 3.15 Los Angeles 68

5. Prahlads prayers to Nrshimhadev (Mauna vrata or silence is meant for neophytes.S.B 7.9.46)When a child speaks a lot of rubbish. Parents tell them to shut and sit quietly. When he is

sober. He is expected to speak and behave the right way.

Its not that we should accept or renounce activities, because such thoughts stem fromignorance, the right approach is to have an elevated consciousness while performing anactivity. Important is an elevated consciousness and not if I do an activity or I dont or if Itop or I dont top. Activity/results of an activity may or may not be a correct index of

persons consciousness.


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As I quoted Gita earlier. Activity can never be stopped at any time.

Please let me know your thoughts, I always like my conceptions to be challenged and in

this way I can learn more.

Hope you gained from the conversation. Keep in touch. Hare Krsna

Thanks A Lot

Your ServantBhushan

***Akd replies to Bhushan Kotnis' mail in purple. What appears in Red are his repliesfrom previous mail************From: Bhushan Kotnis Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 7:47 PM

Hare KrishnaDear Akincana Krishna PrabhuThank you so much for your email and the replies. I was thinking about what you said,and was not sure how I should reply, but now I am happy reading your email that youwould like to see a reply. I like doing discussions and especially like to challenge what

I/other believe, although I dont want to hurt anyone feelings in any way, sometimes mylower nature does take better of me and I regret that but its an ongoing work to purifymyself and will take some time.

I have certain comments on your replies. As far as the western philosophers areconcerned some of them are quite deep. Maybe not as much as the Vedic/Vedantascriptures. Especially Soren Kierkegaard the Danish Philosopher also known as founder ofexistentialism. He was a religious/spiritual person who bluntly and honestly spoke againstthe corrupt Danish church. He has an entire book on how following the orders of Godwith intelligent faith is much superior to simply following moral instructions. He uses thestory of Abraham and Ishmael from the Bible (God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son

Ishmael). I read one of his books where he emphasized subjective reading of scriptures.He emphasized subjectivity rather than objectivity e.g. of objectivity is maybe I have readthe Bhagavad Gita thrice, but subjectivity is how much I have realized or am following the

Bhagavad Gita.

I would recommend his books. Also I found the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali very interesting.A devotee from Rutgers University Dr Edwin Bryant, Advaita Prabhu, wrote a brilliantcommentary and has included a devotional perspective also. Dhanurdhara Swami used togive lectures on it and has written a nice article on it.

When you come to India. May be you can give a talk on these philosophies. I may nothave the patience to read.


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http://bhakticollective.com/2009/08/02/893/ Lord Krsna in the B.G and Prahlad Maharaja in the Bhagavatham and S.P refute BlasPascal.B.G 3.5 - Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired

rom the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something,

not even for a moment.

I dont think this verse refutes Blas Pascal. Blas Pascal simply talks about the evileffects of mode passion due to which there is restlessness an activity. Of course BlasPascal doesnt know anything about activity of the soul. But the point is the rajo gunaactivity has to be reduced (mauna can be useful) and satva guna should be increased.As sattva guna increases activity born of mode of passion decreases. This is also practicedby Buddhists whose sole purpose is to calm the mind to awaken wisdom.

Sure. I only read about Pascal in my engineering. Pascal's law: it states that thePressure applied to an enclosed fluid is transmitted equally in all directions and to all

parts of the enclosing vessel. So I am not an authority on Pascal. But please read on.

Thus rajo guna activity should not be confused with activity of the soul (and it usually isconfused).I have my reservations about this point. Could you please quote scriptural reference forthis?

The activity of the soul part was quite interesting. I accept that soul is active, but aconditioned soul cannot be active.

I have major reservations about this point too. Could you please quote scripturalreference for this?In fact in the purport of B.G 3.5 S.P says, "It is not a question of embodied life, but it isthe nature of the soul to be always active. Without the presence of the spirit soul, thematerial body cannot move. The body is only a dead vehicle to be worked by the spiritsoul, which is always active and cannot stop even for a moment. "So if the rajo guna activity is not the activity of the soul in the conditioned state as you

say how the soul is active without serving Krsna. So all activity in the three modes is theactivity of the soul conditioned by modes.Check out this verse:B.G 14.5

Material nature consists of three modesgoodness, passion and ignorance. When theeternal living entity comes in contact with nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, he becomesconditioned by these modes.PURPORTThe living entity, because he is transcendental, has nothing to do with this materialnature. Still, because he has become conditioned by the material world, he is acting

under the spell of the three modes of material nature (Note this). Because living entitieshave different kinds of bodies, in terms of the different aspects of nature, they are


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induced to act (Note this) according to that nature. This is the cause of the varieties ofhappiness and distress.

The pure nature of the soul is to serve Lord Krishna, and that is its only activity it cant doany other activity. Just like when I am convinced that I am a man and hence I shouldenjoy a women, my gaze naturally goes towards a women, just like that a soul just knowsthat it is a servant of Krishna and hence its very natural for it to serve Lord Krishna in aloving way.

Because of this mysterious glue called ignorance which has no beginning (but has an end)the soul identifies with the mind and hence the natural activity of the soul is stopped. Butwe still find that conditioned souls do all kinds of activities, that is due to the rajo guna inthe mind, or the fluctuating vrittis.

So when a conditioned soul doing some activity based on false conceptions, how can itbe the activity of the soul, its the activity of the mind, the soul should be the observer

but unfortunately its entangled and thinks its the doer and identifies with the activityand the result of the activity.You are misconceiving between the activity of the modes and the soul. Here is areference from the Gita on the mind and the modes. B.g 14.22-25 The SupremePersonality of Godhead said: O son of Pu, he who does not hate illumination,attachment and delusion when they are present or long for them when they disappear;

who is unwavering and undisturbed through all these reactions of the material qualities,remaining neutral and transcendental, knowing that the modes alone are active(Notethis: Illumination attachment and delusion are the activities of the modes. So the soul hasthe choice to act being influenced by it or without.); who is situated in the self andregards alike happiness and distress; who looks upon a lump of earth, a stone and a pieceof gold with an equal eye; who is equal toward the desirable and the undesirable; who issteady, situated equally well in praise and blame, honor and dishonor; who treats alikeboth friend and enemy; and who has renounced all material activitiessuch a person issaid to have transcended the modes of nature.So in the process of purification the material temporary activities must reduce so that thenatural activity of the soul may awaken. In the shanta rasa its just awakened as the soul

is the observer of the awe and grandeur of Lord Krishna's majesty. As the rasa gets moreintense the activity of the soul increases in dasya, sakhya etc.

The deep desire for spiritual knowledge certainly comes from the soul e.g. RadhanathSwami,( his feelings realizations give a a glimpse of his consciousness) but I dont know ifin the example of the student you gave, what was his consciousness i.e weather theactivity was coming from the mode of passion or goodness( from the soul) or maybe its amixture of both( as you rightly pointed out in the Gita verse).

As you rightly pointed out silence is meant for neophytes and that is true and is needed. Ihave personal experience when I talk with devotees, or other people my mind becomes


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disturbed, because of rajo guna. But for me silence and some kind of discipline( the 5yamas) to calm down the mind and try to be in the mode of goodness is needed, but forone who is already fixed in that such things may not be needed.

I still feel silence is not the recommended process in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition.Here is what S.P has to say in his purport to S.B 3.27.7. Which may help? "A devoteeshould not speak needlessly. A serious devotee has no time to speak of nonsense. He isalways busy in Ka consciousness. Whenever he speaks, he speaks about Ka.Mauna means "silence." Silence does not mean that one should not speak at all, but thathe should not speak of nonsense. He should be very enthusiastic in speaking aboutKa."But what I am afraid of is that this concept of activity of the soul is usually misapplied (atleast I did). I used to think " I must do some practical activity for Krishna and that isdevotional service" and usually what used to happen is after doing that activity my mindused to be agitated. Later by my good fortune I came across some Sacinandana Swamilectures in which he pointed out that the important part is the mind. Devotee means themind.

Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura (I cant remember the exact Sastric quote but I cansend you the lecture in which HH SNS quotes this). said that simply doing external activityis like arranging fruits and flowers and other paraphernalia for the yajna and engagingthe mind is like lighting fire and offering the ghee. So if the later is not done the yajna isuseless.

I agree with this.It starts with mana bhava the mind comes first, and as the mind becomes purified activitynaturally comes. So devotional service means activity is true but its often misapplied andI guess it is misapplied in the IIT student example because there is no mention about theintent of his activity, the motivation of his activity etc. Simply securing excellent gradesand offering them to Krishna cannot be called devotional service that maybe calledkarma kanda or maybe karma mishra Bhakti.

The student i was talking about who secured excellent grades is now a b'cari since fiveyears. When he was in college he was spending all his time in preaching and following upthe boys for the preaching programs. His name was Kapil before initiation and Revati pati

after initiation, and he is today an inspiration of scores of students in IIT Kharaghpur eventoday. So it is not a misapplication of philosophy. His motivation is pretty clear. He wantsto serve Krsna with his academics.

All the devotee students in the colleges have a standing order of his holiness Radhanathswami that they have only two business, academics and K.C. They should try their best todo well in academics. Following this instruction was certainly devotional service for him.And of Course Krsna is the ultimate judge. We can at the most judge ourselves.These are some of the thoughts in my understanding of philosophy. It is nice discussing.Please don't mind. Even munis disagree with each other on philosophical aspects. But

devotees are united not by philosophy but devotional serviceAkincana Krsna Dasa


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Please let me know your thoughts

Thanks

Your servant

Bhushan

************Akd's replies to Bhushan's mail are in Blue***************

From: Bhushan Kotnis Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 7:19 PM

Hare KrishnaDear Akincana Krishna PrabhuThank you so much for your replies. How is your health now? Has the malaria subsided? Iguess all these diseases remind us how fickle life is and that too full of suffering, I guesswe just have to tolerate it a wait for Lord Krishna's mercy while constantly praying to Him

and aspiring to attain the shelter of His lotus feet.Here its summer now but after some months there will be a bitter winter, with freezingcold winds. They have eradicated malaria here so nobody gets sick of malaria but theyare powerless to stop the cold winds nor can they stop neither death nor other deadlydiseases like depression, cancer, old age etc.I am happy, healthy and strong now but its ust a matter of time when old age and the

most dreaded Time factor or death will catch up with me.We are all in this together.The hope is that the discussion we are having will give us insights and inspire us totranscend all kinds of pain and suffering and take shelter of Shri Krishna and His words,and hence I continue and I thank you and value your association in this very valuablephilosophical discussion. Your points are very significant and I completely respect yourthoughts on this complex topic; however I would like add some things which may clarifythe topic.I think you mentioned a very good point from BG 3.5 and BG 14.5 " which is always activeand cannot stop even for a moment" and "he is acting under the spell of the three modesof material nature(Note this)"

I had given it some thought and the reason why I accepted the conclusion that soul doesnot act is because of the following reason. Honestly speaking ontologically (nature of

reality) I do not exactly understand if the soul is active or not, some verses hint it is activewhile some say its the observer.BG 13.30 One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is createdof material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.Purport:This body is made by material nature under the direction of the Super soul, and whatever

activities are going on in respect to one's body are not his doing. Whatever one issupposed to do, either for happiness or for distress, one is forced to do because of the


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bodily constitution. The self, however, is outside all these bodily activities. This body isgiven according to one's past desires. To fulfill desires, one is given the body, with whichhe acts accordingly. Practically speaking, the body is a machine, designed by the Supreme

Lord, to fulfill desires. Because of desires, one is put into difficult circumstances to sufferor to enjoy. This transcendental vision of the living entity, when developed, makes oneseparate from bodily activities. One who has such a vision is an actual seer.

Hare Krsna, In some places the soul is said to be the doer and in other places the supersoul is said to be the doer.This is a fact. Why is it done like that. In some place the soul issaid to be the doer so that the soul takes responsibilities for his actions in this world anddoesn't put the blame on the Material nature or God... Like there was this murdererwhose name was Raman Raghava? He used to kill the beggars on the street. When hewas caught he simply said that "I was not the doer. The soul does nothing. Why do youarrest me? The Super soul is the doer." So you see this philosophy that the soul is not thedoer is a very dangerous philosophy indeed, and can be misapplied. Then one may askwhy it is mentioned in the scriptures in that way. It is mentioned so that the soul does

not become proud of his accomplishments in this world.B.G 18.14The place of action [the body], the performer, the various senses, the many differentkinds of endeavor, and ultimately the Super soulthese are the five factors of action.PURPORTThe word adhishthanam refers to the body. The soul within the body is acting to bring

about the results of activity and is therefore known as kart, "the doer." That the soul isthe knower and the doer is stated in the ruti. Ea hi dra sra (Prana Upaniad4.9). It is also confirmed in the Vedanta sutra by the verses jo 'ta eva (2.3.18) and kartstrrthavattvt (2.3.33). The instruments of action are the senses, and by the sensesthe soul acts in various ways. For each and every action there is a different endeavor. Butall one's activities depend on the will of the Super soul, who is seated within the heart asa friend. The Supreme Lord is the super cause. Under these circumstances, he who isacting in Krsna consciousness under the direction of the Super soul situated within theheart is naturally not bound by any activity. Those in complete Krsna consciousness arenot ultimately responsible for their actions. Everything is dependent on the supreme will,the Super soul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

The adhishthanam, or place of action, refers to the entire body, or that which is held upby the skeleton. The kart, the performer, is ultimately the soul, who when absorbed inmaterial consciousness, acts through false ego. The karanam, or instruments, are the

parts of the body, the senses. The ceshtha is the overall endeavor of the senses. Daivam,the Super soul, is the ultimate controller over all the other factors. He is the Paramtm,the Lord of all within the material world.To convince us that we are not the only doers, Krsna stresses that these five factors arethe true causes of action, the ultimate super cause being the Super souls sanction.Srila Baladeva Vidybhsana comments that we are doersour activities do spring from

our own free willbut our endeavor is not the independent cause of actions:If the jivas being a doer is under the regulating control of the Supreme Lord, then we


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have to say that his activity does not proceed from his own will and that he is actuallyust like a stone or some other inert object. In that case, dont the injunctions and

prohibitions of scripture become useless? The answer is, the jiva receives from the

Supreme Lord a body and senses endowed with specific potencies, of which he thenbecomes the proprietor. Acquiring those potencies, the jiva exerts his free will andassumes control of his body and senses for the purpose of fulfilling karmic endeavors.The Supreme Lord, present within all these coverings, sanctions the jivas activity andinspires him to act. In this way there is no contradiction between the Supremes controland the jivas having his own willpower to act or to refrain from acting

Also in SB 11.11.9 and 11.11.1011.11.9 An enlightened person who is free from the contamination of material desiredoes not consider himself to be the performer of bodily activities; rather, he knows thatin all such activities it is only the senses, born of the modes of nature, that are contactingsense objects born of the same modes of nature.

So the thrust of my argument is that the soul is transcendental and hence it cannot

have material desires, but because its identifying with the mind and body, its in somekind of dream when it accepts material things as "Mine".

You just said that the soul cannot have material desires then why is it accepting thematerial things as mine. This is a material desire isn't it? And why is it identifying with the

mind and body and is in some kind of dream. That means it is not transcendental. He hasbeen covered over by matter. The statement above is self contradictory.

In many verse material existence is compared to a dream ( however matter is an energyof Krishna and not an imagination as argued by the Advaita Vedantists but imagination isthat I am matter and matter is mine.)

Now this is a fact. I agree.

So the conditioned souls due to this dream are simply acting like robots or like footballskicked by the modes which arise due to the samskaras and vasanas in the mind.

But who has caused the samskaras and vasanas in his mind for him. He himself. And thushe is the doer. This has to be understood. And he should take responsibility for hisposition.

By spiritual practice the dream fades away the soul understands itself and Krishna andthen true desire to serve Krishna rises and that I term as activity of the soul.

You just said that the soul is not active. Then how can he even perform spiritual practicesto get out of the illusion. Again this is self contradictory. He can never come out ofillusion. Perpetual illusion is the result.

You quoted that soul is always active ( that may be ontologically true) but I cannot


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accept it as activity of the soul, thats activity of the mind or the modes. Material desirecan never be part of the soul,

If material desire is not the part of the soul then where is the desire springing from?From dead matter. That is impossible.

if it is then one could never get rid of it and hence no use of practicing spiritual life toreduce material desires. And hence those activities which come from material desirescannot be accepted as activity of the soul and hence the soul is inactive.Also if material desire was a part of the soul then karma (action/reaction) also would be apart of the soul and would be eternal.Desire has to be purified. It is not necessary that the material desires have to be eternal.Yet it is the cause of us coming to this material world.B.G 7.27O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion,bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.

You quoted B.G 14.22-25 about the choice to identify with modes.O son of Pu, hewho does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present or longfor them when they disappear; who is unwavering and undisturbed through all thesereactions of the material qualities, remaining neutral and transcendental, knowing thatthe modes alone are active The reason why the liberated person is not affected by it isbecause he can exactly see what they are( but seeing is also an activity isn't it), that he is

completely different from them and hence is not affected by them. Just like a movie, onedoesnt take the cartoon movie or a dream for real and identifies with it because oneknows what it is. Its not a matter of choice its a matter of realized knowledge.

Regarding silence, I agree with you but still as a conditioned soul I should always becareful not to talk frivolously. (But you just said that the conditioned soul is inactive. Thenwhere is the question of control. It is just the modes isn't it?)SB 11.16.42: Therefore, control your speaking, subdue the mind, conquer the life air,regulate the senses and through purified intelligence bring your rational faculties undercontrol. In this way you will never again fall onto the path of material existence.SB 11.16.43: A transcendentalist who does not completely control his words and mind by

superior intelligence will find that his spiritual vows, austerities and charity flow awayust as water flows out of an unbaked clay pot.

SB 11.16.44: Being surrendered to Me, one should control the speech, mind and life air,

and then through loving devotional intelligence one will completely fulfill the mission oflife.If silence helps in absorbing mind in Lord Krishna then it should be accepted.

Regarding the example, I am very pleased to hear that the student is now a brahmacharyand is an inspiration for devotees. But Academic success and other objective measurable

things cannot be taken as index/measure of spirituality. The reason why I try todiscriminate is not to judge and disparage and get some kind of joy that I am better(


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although that sometimes subtly happens due to my lower nature) but to understandwhat is genuinely spiritual, because if I accept something which isnt spiritual asgenuinely spiritual then I will be baffled. That is true for myself also and outside of me

also, there many things within me, what I do etc which are not spiritual although I cannotovercome them, but still I need to know that they are undesirable. Likewise what isoutside of me, like the media advertisements for sense gratification etc I need to know ifits spiritual or not. Like that devotees also, which one is a neophyte, intermediate andadvanced. Although to do this is most difficult and often I make mistakes, it needs to bedone.

You mentioned the instruction of HH Radhanath Swami Maharaj, of doing academicsand KC. As per my understanding it means doing ones duty for pleasing Krishna. Out ofthat duty one may or may not get the desired result, one should continue to do the duty.But the same activity of studying and preaching can also be done for sense gratification.So activity itself cannot be an index. So as you said we cannot determine( or maybe onecan if one is advanced), only Krishna knows, that is absolutly correct. So in the article itmay come off that if one gets good grades and also preaches then it is KC, however that

may not always be true(And not always false too). However one may get not so goodgrades, who may not preach but still His mind maybe absorbed in Krishna and thatperson may perhaps be good in some other activity which may not be so much sociallyrespected.Both the cases are observed, one who worships Lord Vishnu becomes endowed with allkinds of skills, intelligence, fame, good qualities, success and also one who worships Lord

Vishnu finds that all materially desirable things are taken away (like the AvantiBrahmana) and such people are looked down as useless people by the general societyalthough they are most advanced. (I guess the second case is rare).Yes consciousness behind the activity is the most important thing which determineswhether the activity is spiritual or not.

So in conclusion the soul being active is proven in the purport of 18.14 of the Gita. It isvery clearly presented by S.P and Baladeva Vidybhsana. Thank you once again. Pleasedon't be offended by my arguments.Best wishes Akincana Krsna Dasa

These are some of the thoughts in my understanding of philosophy. It is nice discussing.Please don't mind. Even munis disagree with each other on philosophical aspects. Butdevotees are united not by philosophy but devotional service

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Brahmana means independentlythoughtful, thats has to be there. Every one of us has a different nature and hence therewill be philosophical differences and thats beautiful. If everyone tries to have sameunderstanding artificially that will lead to some kind of depersonalization and self-alienation which is harmful. Discussion in rajo guna is certainly useless where ones only

motivation is to win and if lost then one becomes bitter.


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I think the perfection in a relationship would be that even if there are 1000 differences ofopinion, 1000s of arguments, but yet due to the goodness and purity of the heart eachone feels extremely grateful to each other and is concerned over others well being over

oneself in spite of all these differences. That is also a sign of respect that one respectsothers and their opinion. Yes devotees are certainly united in devotional service, I amextremely happy to hear that from you.

In the end I would recommend some books I went through: 1. BhaktiSiddhanta Vaibhava2. Japa by Bhurijana Prabhu

Thank You So much.

Take care of your health

Your servant

Bhushan

********Akd's replies in Red**********

--- On Tue, 8/10/10, Bhushan Kotnis wrote:

Date: Tuesday, August 10, 2010, 12:13 AM

Hare KrishnaDear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisance

Thank you for your email. I am sorry I couldnt reply sooner as I was a little busy. Iappreciate your replies but somehow your replies somehow dont make any sense to me.In some place I agree with you but in some places I dont.

"Hare Krsna, In some places the soul is said to be the doer and in other places the super

soul is said to be the doer.This is a fact. Why is it done like that. In some place the soul issaid to be the doer so that the soul takes responsibilities for his actions in this world anddoesn't put the blame on the Material nature or God... Like there was this murderer

whose name was Raman Raghava? He used to kill the beggars on the street. When hewas caught he simply said that "I was not the doer. The soul does nothing. Why do youarrest me? The Super soul is the doer." So you see this philosophy that the soul is not thedoer is a very dangerous philosophy indeed, and can be misapplied. Then one may askwhy it is mentioned in the scriptures in that way. It is mentioned so that the soul doesnot become proud of his accomplishments in this world."

Materialistic people or people in mode of passion/ignorance do not find any value in


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spiritual life and hence they put blame on God or nature. But this is because they are inignorance and are simply dreaming. Robbers and thieves by their very nature are inmode of passion and ignorance and they use their intelligence to rationalize anything

(even killing a person) and you have given a very good example of that. Any philosophycan be misapplied but that does not make the philosophy dangerous.

In this example Raman Raghava has not misapplied the 'soul is not the doer' philosophy.He applied it correctly. But what i am stating is that this philosophy is not a GaudiyaVaishnava philosophy. I simply disagree on the basis of the Baladeva Vidyabhushana'sexplicit quotes i have stated on the subject.

For a fanatic KC philosophy is also dangerous. So if your argument is accepted that if aphilosophy is dangerous we should not accept it then no one should practice any religionand people do think like that especially here in USA. Some of they are so burnt byCatholicism that they simply say its such a dangerous philosophy that it should bethrown away. Religion causes wars so do away with religion. Such mentality is also found

in some ritviks; some people had some fall down, so they conclude that the philosophy ofGuru disciple parampara is very dangerous and hence should get rid of it.

But I cannot accept such things. If someone misapplies such a philosophy its theirproblem, no need to change the philosophy.

Again I state, that the 'Soul is not the doer is not our Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy.

Regarding the jiva and the free will, its clearly explained by Lord Krishna in the UddhavaGita that the soul is perfectly pure and transcendental.SB 11.11.1: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, due to theinfluence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity issometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, thesoul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of my,which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or

in bondage.AlsoSB 11.11.2: Just as a dream is merely a creation of one's intelligence but has no actual

substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and theacceptance of the material body under the influence of may are all creations of Myillusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality.

But then why do conditioned souls suffer? The answer is given by Lord Shri KrishnaSB 11.11.4: O most intelligent Uddhava, the living entity, calledjva, is part and parcel of

Me, but due to ignorance he has been suffering in material bondage since timeimmemorial. By knowledge, however, he can be liberated.


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It is that due to ignorance that I am suffering and I have to come to realized knowledge(sambandha jnyana) and that will free me from suffering.

Well, what is the point you are trying to make? The above verses, if you read the purportcarefully only proves that the 'soul is the doer' and is itself the cause of his imagination ofbeing bound up. The Lord doesn't enforce this imagination.

"The answer is, the jiva receives from the Supreme Lord a body and senses endowed withspecific potencies, of which he then becomes the proprietor. Acquiring those potencies,the jiva exerts his free will and assumes control of his body and senses for the purpose offulfilling karmic endeavors. The Supreme Lord, present within all these coverings,sanctions the jivas activity and inspires him to act. In this way there is no contradictionbetween the Supremes control and the jivas having his own willpower to act or torefrain from acting"

I disagree that the soul has some potencies and it willingly enjoys sense gratification.

Hello Bhushan.This is a direct quote from Baladeva Vidyabhushanas commentary as quoted byBhurijana Pr in his book 'Surrender unto me'. If you disagree with the Acaryas, there is noconclusion we can ever reach. Then your discussion is based simply on logic. And Logic

can always be cut with higher forms of logic. But the tattva can never be understood. Soif you disagree with the reference of the Gaudiya Acaryas I don't have much to say. Oneis free to subscribe to one's own philosophy. Just that one should not choose to call hisphilosophy Gaudiya Vaishnava. Assuming that you respect the authority of the Acaryas Icontinue.The soul is unchangeable (fundamental axiom of Vedanta) and hence inside the soul ifthere is a tendency to enjoy sense gratification then it can never be removed.Well if that is what you think. i am quoting this reference again directly from thepublished version of Baladeva Vidya Bhushans book Gita Bhushan.******14. These five factors are the body, the false ego, the senses of various types; the life airs

with various functions, and the super soul.

This verse enumerates the five causes. That which is ruled (adhihyate) by the jiva is

called the adhihnam. This indicated the body. The doer (kart) is the jiva. The rutisstate that the jiva is the knower and doer, in statements such as ea hi dra sra: heis the seer and doer. (Prana Upaniad 4.9) The author of the Vedanta also says jo taeva: the jiva is the knower (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.18); kart strrthavattvt: he alone isthe agent, not prakti, because this gives the scriptures a use.[1] (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.31).

Karaam refers to the senses like the ear, and the mental faculties. They have differingfunctions (pthag vidham) in accomplishing the actions. Pthag ce refers to the


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differing functions of various types of pra.[2]

Daivam refers to the param brahma, worthy of worship by all. He is the fifth element in

the accomplishment of action, among the causes of action (atra). This means that theLord, Hari, the antarym is the chief cause. Those who are convinced that the body,senses, pras and jiva are only assistant causes, and that the Lord is the initiator ofaction; those people who thus reject the desire for results for themselves and theconcept of being the doer-- are consequently not bound by actions. This is the meaning.

But if the jvas actions depend on the Lord, his action becomes mere engagement bythe Lord, in fulfillment of the Lords goal. Jva is simply like a piece of wood. The rulesand prohibitions of scripture meant for the jva would then be useless. It would not bepossible to initiate action by ones own intelligence, since it is seen that the jiva is simplymade to act by the Lord.

The jiva is the substratum of body, senses and pras which are given by the Lord, whose

powers bestowed by the Lord alone. Being the possessor of these bestowed powers, theiva rules over his body and senses by his own desires alone, for accomplishing his

actions.

The Supreme Lord, situated within all the jivas, giving His permission for action to theiva, sets the actions of the jiva in motion. The jiva by his intelligence can chose to act or

not to act. He is not at all forced to act in one particular way by the Lord. This issupported by the author of Vedanta. Part tat tac chakte (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.40): hispowers come from the Supreme Lord.

But then at least the liberated jiva should not be the agent, because he no longer has abody, senses and pras.

No, that is not so, because the liberated souls have spiritual senses and body, by which toaccomplish their desires.

[1] The scriptures are meant for humans, giving them directions for action. If the jiva is

not a agent, what is the use of scripture. Scripture is of no use to give directions topraki, if prakti is the only agent.[2] Ce cannot mean activity because activity is the subject which is constituted of

the five factors.****But thats not true, inside the soul there is only one tendency which is to serve Krishna.But that is inactive or covered and not functional or functional in minute degree and thathas to be increased.Jaiva Dharma explains it very clearly about the actual nature called svabhava and

acquired nature called naisarga. Because of foreign nature the material activities becomeprominent. But such acquired nature does not have any real substance, its a result of


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some dream.

As i argued before that the dream is also a result of activity of the soul influenced by the

modes. As you yourself have quoted from the 11th canto if you read the purport carefullyit is said'Although the individual soul is never actually bound to matter, he suffers the reactionsof material nature because of false identification' (My comment; Why is the soulsuffering if he is not the doer,That means that The soul's suffering is caused by the soul'sactivities) 'and thus the term baddha, or "bound up," may be used to indicate the natureof a living entity's experience within the inferior energy of the Lord. Since baddhadescribes a false situation, freedom from such a false situation may also be described asmoka, or liberation. Therefore the terms bondage and liberation are acceptable if oneunderstands that such terms only refer to temporary situations created by illusion and donot refer to the ultimate nature of the living entity.'Another thing is that I could appreciate if you could directly quote Jaiva Dharma. It willmake your presentation credible.

However for a conditioned soul its very real, if one says I think I am liberated and Ibecome liberated is new age philosophy which I disagree with. One has to practice Bhaktito actually wake up from the dream.This comes to the next question.You just said that the soul is not active. Then how can he even perform spiritual practices

to get out of the illusion. Again this is self contradictory. He can never come out ofillusion. Perpetual illusion is the result.

The material activities which we see are not due to the soul.

Then as i quoted in the above para, why does the soul have to suffer the result of hismaterial activities. Sounds like mayavada.

When the person starts performing spiritual activities its the activity coming from thesoul. The soul is little by little awakening. And as you have rightly pointed out "perpetualillusion is the result" This is true for our four legged brothers and sisters and also our two

legged brothers and sisters who are no better than the 4 legged ones. The soul is almostsleeping in animals so they cannot do any spiritual practice, but if they contact somepowerful personality who can destroy their ignorance by their potency then animals also

can do devotional service e.g. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the Forest making wildanimals chant Krishna's names. Or the hippies who came in contact with SrilaPrabhupada, or why go that far, myself is a good example, I came in touch with SrilaPrabhupada books, took prasadam and that helped me do spiritual practice and itcontinues to help and will continue to help me.

If material desire is not the part of the soul then where is the desire springing from?From dead matter. That is impossible.


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Thats a good question. The natural desire of soul is to serve Krishna but because ofignorance it manifests in different ways.

Now again, I see a play with words. What do you mean that it manifests in differentways. This makes no sense to me.

There are some philosophers who ascribe to the atheistic sankhya philosophy who saythat soul is not the doer at all not even in conditioned and not even in liberated state. Sothey think its only the modes which cause activities. And liberation/bondage is just aconfiguration of the modes. I dont support this theory, but what I am saying is that forconditioned soul/animals it is true that modes completely drive all actions.

How will you explain the activities on a soul who is aspiring for liberation? He refrains hissenses from s.g. He is not serving Krsna. He gets brahmajyoti liberation. Which mode iscontrolling him? Who is the doer in this case?? Which mode of nature.

Well how will you explain the story of Bharat Maharaj who even in the body of a deerwas remembering his mistake he had committed in his past life?S.B 5.8.31:'Remaining in that asrama, the great King Bharata Mahrja was now very careful not tofall victim to bad association. Without disclosing his past to anyone, he remained in thatasrama and ate dry leaves only. He was not exactly alone, for he had the association of

the Super soul. In this way he waited for death in the body of a deer. Bathing in that holyplace, he finally gave up that body.'This indicates that the soul is never completely covered by the modes. There is bookwhich was published by Janananda Pr from the Manor titled 'Animals in KrsnaConsciousness'. It is about the animals which showed inclination to hearing Bhagavadkatha. Read the B.G 3.38 purport to this verse: As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror iscovered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarlycovered by different degrees of this lust.

But as sattva guna increases and rajo/tamo decreases what happens is that soul startsawakening. Sattva means original or pure so as sattva increases soul starts awakening

and liberation is when rajo/tamo are completely destroyed to the point where theycannot bind the jiva then it is called shuddha sattva. Indeed SB 1.2.24. " sattvam yadbramha darsanam"

Similarly, passion [rajas] is better than ignorance [tamas], but goodness [sattva] is bestbecause by goodness one can come to realize the Absolute Truth.

But then we see Arjuna being angry, isnt that rajo? Yes it is but it is not binding him, hedid not lose mastery over the self by fighting. Or Srila Prabhupada also, he chastised themayavada/scientists etc so many times, but that was not due to anger which deludes the

intelligence. They are jivan muktas.


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These are something I wanted to clarify. Please let me know if you have any thoughts.Thanks a lot for engaging in this nice discussion. Please dont bear any offence.

In conclusion i would like to say that the statement that 'when the soul acts selfishly it isnot the soul acting but the modes, And when the soul serves Krsna then it is the actuallythe soul acting'. This is not supported by the Sastras and the Acaryas. The soul is alwaysthe doer and not the modes, whether conditioned or liberated. The soul has triggeredthe modes to bear upon him.Hare Krsna. Thanks a lot for the discussion. I hope this discussion is not interfering withyour academics. You may reply at your leisure time. No hurry.Wish you all the best with preaching in the west.Hare Krsna.Thanks a lot,

Your Servant

Bhushan

*********Akd's replies in Blue*************Hare Krsna Bhushan,Hope this mail meets you in the best of health and Krsna Consciousness. Thanks for themail. My replies are in Blue color font.

Hare KrishnaDear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Thank you for your email. I was a bit busy so could not reply, but I get time on weekendsso here I am writing.

"In this example Raman Raghava has not misapplied the 'soul is not the doer' philosophy.He applied it correctly. But what i am stating is that this philosophy is not a GaudiyaVaishnava philosophy. I simply disagree on the basis of the Baladeva Vidyabhushana'sexplicit quotes i have stated on the subject."

Raman Raghava did not apply it correctly because from his actions we can understand

that he had no knowledge of the soul, he was not in touch with himself, nor did he seethe soul in others. He had no realization of atmatattva and hence he did not apply it


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correctly and it was just a rationalization.

(That doesnt really matter at all. When he says he has not committed the murder he is

still right according to your philosophy that the soul cannot be materially active. Sowhat are you going to do with him? Release him? You cant say that you are going topunish him bcos he that would mean you are applying the scriptural injunctions on him[bcos material reward and punishment are also scriptural injunctions). And since youdont exactly agree with B.V.Bhusana and Bhurijana pr the Vedic scriptures have noapplication on the material realm)Just like in 7th canto Hiranyakashipu started talkingBhagavad Gita philosophy to calm his family, but he had no understanding of it andhence was misapplying it.

This is my understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy and I completely agree withShripada Baladeva Vidybhsana and the Acaryas, but I do not agree with theexplanation of HG Bhurijana Prabhu in this case only. (That quote which Bhurijana had

made is not his own. It was directly from the B.V.Bhusana commentary. So you are notdisagreeing with Bhurijana pr alone but Baladeva Vidya Bhusana.And by the way Ithoroughly accept Bhurijana Pr as an authority and so does ISKCON and his books are thesyllabus material for Bhakti Shastri degree by VIHE and VTE.I have also got my degreefrom VIHE by studying Bhurijana Surrender unto me. So if you disagree even partially Ithink then the discussion less comes to an end. However with the hope that there could

have been a misunderstanding I continue giving quotes.)

Note: Its not that I don't accept any of HG Bhurijana Prabhu books/thoughts/lectures, Ilike his books/lectures etc and especially his new book "Japa" and interestingly hewrites "even by simply slowing it (the mind) down as in Buddhist-style meditation onenears transcendence! "

How do I understand Shri Baladeva Vidybhsana?

But if the jivas actions depend on the Lord, his action becomes mere engagement bythe Lord, in fulfillment of the Lords goal. Jva is simply like a piece of wood. The rules

and prohibitions of scripture meant for the jiva would then be useless. It would not bepossible to initiate action by ones own intelligence, since it is seen that the jva is simplymade to act by the Lord.

I am not saying that the jiva is totally inactive. I agree that the rules and regulationswould be useless if the jiva was completely inactive.Rules and regulations are prescribedfor humans only because their soul is slightly active and thus it has the capacity to do

spiritual activity. Thus the following of rules and regulations for spiritual practice is anactivity and that is actually the souls activity. The scriptures never encourage sense


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gratification, they encourage only spiritual activities hence they appeal to those whosouls are active. But animals are not expected to follow rules and regulations, and its trueall such rules and regulations are actually useless for animals for humans who are like

animals.

This is not the truth that the Vedas contain only spiritual practices. Krsna says The Vedasdeal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, becometranscendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties forgain and safety, and be established in the self. B.G 2.45

B.G 3.10: In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations ofmen and demigods, along with sacrifices for Viu, and blessed them by saying, "Be thouhappy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everythingdesirable for living happily and achieving liberation."So Vedas contain mainly karma kanda sections meant for satisfying the senses and theJnyana kanda section meant for Liberation and very small section of Bhakti i.e service to

Krsna or VishnuB.G 2.45. The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature.O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities andfrom all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

Again i state, that the 'Soul is not the doer is not our Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy.

I agree, but I am not saying that. I am saying that the soul is the doer of only spiritualactivities. Materialistic activities cannot be ascribed to the soul.I have attached a picture of what I am trying to convey please refer to the same.

As shown in the picture the soul starts awakening gradually. So what Srila BaladevaVidybhsana says is perfectly right but only for humans. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not foranimals.But as you mentioned some examples, there are always some exceptions. I have read thebook by HH Janananda Swami Animals in KC. Although some of these animals do showthat the soul is awakened and hence I am sure their next birth will be a human body

where they will come in contact with spirituality

Here are some more quotes by Srila Prabhupada

*****Quote 1******In conditional life the living entity actually remains as if a captive in the hands of materialenergy. Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has noresponsibility; he is simply the witness of the action, but he is forced to act in that waydue to his offense in his eternal relationship with Krsna.*******Quote 2******

S.B 3.26.8: The cause of the conditioned soul's material body and senses, and the senses'presiding deities, the demigods, is the material nature. This is understood by learned


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men. The feelings of happiness and distress of the soul, who is transcendental by nature,are caused by the spirit soul himself.PURPORT

In Bhagavad-gt it is said that when the Lord descends to this material world, He comesas a person by His own energy, tma-my. He is not forced by any superior energy. Hecomes by His own will, and this can be called His pastime, or Lila. But here it is clearlystated that the conditioned soul is forced to take a certain type of body and senses underthe three modes of material nature. That body is not received according to his ownchoice. In other words, a conditioned soul has no free choice; he has to accept a certaintype of body according to his karma. But when there are bodily reactions as felt inhappiness and distress, it is to be understood that the cause is the spirit soul himself. Ifhe so desires, the spirit soul can change this conditional life of dualities by choosing toserve Krsna. The living entity is the cause of his own suffering, but he can also be thecause of his eternal happiness. When he wants to engage in Krsna consciousness, asuitable body is offered to him by the internal potency, the spiritual energy of the Lord,and when he wants to satisfy his senses, a material body is offered.

B.G 13.21: Nature is said to be the cause of all material causes and effects, whereas theliving entity is the cause of the various sufferings and enjoyments in this world.The following is one of the most brilliant purports extracted directly from B.V.Bhusanscommentary on the topic of the Atheistic sankyavadis as a purport to B.G 13.20 and 21in Gita Bhusana.(Bhusana Kotnis should accept the commentaries of Vidya Bhusana. Ithink you have the Name Bhushan by providence)

B.V.B says . Prakti is said to be the cause, instrumental in producing the body andsenses. The jiva is said to be the cause, being the enjoyer of happiness and distress.

This verse speaks of their differing functions. Krya means body. Since the senses are

necessary in order to achieve action and knowledge, they are called kraa. Prakti is a

cause, in that it transforms itself (karttve) into the forms of the senses and body. In the

next verse the Lord will say that the jiva is situated in prakti (purua prakti stho hi).

va exploits that prakti which appear conscious by its association with the jiva. Thus

that prakti, ruled by jiva, is the creator of bodies and senses by transforming itself

according to the jivas karmas.

The jiva is the cause in the sense of being the enjoyer of happiness and distress which are

offered by prakti. He is the agent in enjoying them. The functions of the jiva are to

preside over prakti and experience happiness and distress. Since prakti is the agent inregards to production of the body and senses, but is itself exploited by the jiva, the jiva is

the main cause or doer. The author of Vedanta says kart strrthavattvt:: the soul is

the agent, not prakti, since that is the meaning of the scriptures. (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.31)

It will also be stated later that the Lord as the doer must be accepted in all cases, as was

stated earlier (the Lord is the creator, maintainer and destroyer).

The jiva, identifying with prakti in the form of his body, experiences happiness and

distress which are born from prakti, by births in various bodies of devat and animal.

This is caused by his desires for objects made of the guas.

This verse makes clear the agency of the jiva alone in enjoying and suffering and in living


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in prakti. The Lord also shows the cause of the ivas combining with prakti.Though the jiva is by nature knowledge and bliss, it is situated in prakti due toimpressions of beginning less karma. Endowed with body, senses and pra which are

produced by prakti, which the jva rules, the jva experiences (bhukte) happiness anddistress (gun) which are produced by prakti.[1] Where? He experiences this by takingbirths in wombs which are higher (such devas and men) or lower (animal, bird andothers), in well-made or poorly made wombs. In all this, the jva alone is the agent.The cause of the association is explained. The cause is beginning less desire for objectsmade of the guas (gua saga). The meaning is this. The beginning less jva iscontaminated with beginning fewer imprints in the form of karma. The jva desiringenjoyable objects because of his being an enjoyer, will take shelter of prakti equippedwith the desirables which she offers to him, until those imprints of karma are destroyedby devotee association. With the destruction of impressions, he enjoys the happiness inthe abode of the Lord. The ruti says sonute sarvn kmn saha brahma vipacit:he attains all his desires with the omniscient Lord. (Taittirya Upaniad 2.1)The followers of skhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements all activities are

carried out by the modes (BG 3.27) prakti is the doer (BG 13.20), everything is

done by prakti alone (BG 13.29) and the guas alone are the agent (BG 14.19),

claim that prakti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since

prakti, like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element. The ability to gainknowledge, perceive, desire and act--the qualities of the agent--belong to consciousentities alone. The ruti says vijna yaja tanute karmi tanutepi ca: the jva

accomplishes knowledge, sacrifice and action. (Taittirya Upaniad 2.5) ruti also says:ea hi dra spra rot rasayit ghrt mant boddh kart vijntm purua:

the conscious tm alone is the seer, toucher, hearer, taster, smeller, thinker, knower,

and agent. (Prana Upaniad 4.9)

They maintain that prakti has this nature of an agent because of being the receptacle ofthe jva and thus having superimposition of consciousness. This is not so, because theagency of prakti through proximity and imposition is caused by the proximity of the jvaalone. It is seen that the ability of hot iron to burn is due to fire, not the iron. Oneshould not compare dull iron (or prakti) to the water that moves or the tree that bearsfruit, and thus conclude that this proves prakti nature as an agent, because all of thataction is accomplished by the presence of antarym, and because this contradicts the

ruti, which is the foundation of knowledge.Memory (of scriptural rules) enables one to perform jyotioma for bestowing svargaand meditation for bestowing liberation. This indicates that consciousness, the

experience, not inert prakti, is the agent.[2] Agency belongs to the jva alone.When there are statements in scripture saying that prakti is the doer, those statementsare made in order to show the prominence of her functioning. Though a man carriessomething using his hand, we say that the hand carries an object. Similarly, because jvaaccomplishes using prakti, the scriptures say that prakti accomplishes. This is howsome explain such statements.

Well, what is the point you are trying to make? The above verses, if you read the purport


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carefully only proves that the 'soul is the doer' and is itself the cause of his imagination ofbeing bound up. The Lord doesn't enforce this imagination.

The scripture is very silent on the origin of ignorance,

In the above purport the origin of ignorance has been explicitly mention. It is absolutelyclear.

But that is not of interest. The Lord doses not enforce the imagination but gives sweetinstructions like Bhagavad Gita, SB so that we can come out of ignorance. Some peopleask why we are put here and did Krishna put us here etc since He is the cause of allcauses. Expert preachers who are compassionate answer this question in a way toencourage them so they say that we actually choose to leave Krishna and we are enviousof Lord Krishna and not its a place to reform ourselves. However this is preaching notsiddhanta.This is what Garua dsa / Ravndra-svarpa dsa / ubhnanda dsa / ukavak dsa /

Daynanda dsa / Gaura Keava dsa / Brahm-muhrta dsa / Nandar-dev ds /Haripriy-dev ds write in the Vyasa puja offering to Srila Prabhupada. By yourteachings and example, we have learned that preaching is a transcendental art, and thatthere are many ways to present Ka consciousness. Since this preaching field is so vastand variegated, you teach us that an Acarya is one who cannot be expected to conformto a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Ka consciousness may

be spread (Cc. di-ll vol. 2, p. 23). You have shown us that an expert preacherpresents the Vaiava siddhanta unchanged, but he does not always present thisVaiava siddhanta in exactly the same way. His behavior and speaking varies as therequirements of each preaching task are revealed to him by Ka.So next you hear a bonafide preacher give a class on this issue. Dont think that he is notspeaking siddhanta. In fact we should all work to humble our selves rather think that thepreacher is preaching duplicity. This is generally the mentality in the west. To doubt. Tobe very proud to think they know a lot. And that through logic they can understandeverything. They are very pure. Reading too much of philosophy of the Europeans subtlycontaminates people.The soul can never be envious of the Shri Krishna. So does Lord enforce this? No, because

the soul is misidentifying with the mind and body thats why he suffers. So does Lordenforce this misidentification? My experience is that by reading Lord Krishna'sinstructions ones ignorance reduces. The root cause of bondage is this ignorance of who I

am and who is responsible for it, I dont know, but the soul is certainly responsible forgetting out of it and Shri Krishna always assists such a person. And getting out of it is themanifestation of the activity/awakening of the soul.

My comment; why is the soul suffering if he is not the doer, that means that The soul'ssuffering is caused by the soul's activities)

No its caused by ignorance and not by souls activities.


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Yes but what is causing the ignorance B.G 7.27 Krsna explains,[O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion,

bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.

PURPORTThe real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to theSupreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from thispure knowledge, he becomes controlled by the illusory energy and cannot understandthe Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality ofdesire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one withthe Supreme Lord and envies Ka as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.]Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur writes his commentary on the above verse.

When do thejivas become bewildered by Your Maya? At the beginning of the creationof this universe (surge), all thejivas (sarva-bhtni) become bewildered. How? Desire for

objects favorable to the senses, and hatred for things which obstruct the pleasure of thesenses, arising from previous actions, give rise to illusion of duality--of respect anddisrespect, hot and cold, happiness and distress, and woman and man. A person thinks Iam happy, being respected. I am sad, being disrespected. This is my wife. This is myhusband. This duality gives rise to complete ignorance (moha). That in turn gives rise tocomplete bewilderment (samoham)--extreme attachment to wife and sons.

temporary situations created by illusion and do not refer to the ultimate nature of theliving entity.'

As you said the ultimate nature of a living entity is transcendental and this ultimatenature I refer to as soul. Which is manifested in various bodies in various ways in variousextent. In a liberated person its fully manifest.Then as i quoted in the above para, why does the soul have to suffer the result of hismaterial activities. Sounds like mayavada.Soul suffers due to the bond between itself and the mind which is subject to karmatechnically called ignorance. This is also confirmed by Avanti Brahmana in the Uddhava

Gita (this part is also called Sanyaasi Gita/Bhikshu Gita).

SB 11.23.42: The brhmana said: These people are not the cause of my happiness and

distress. Neither are the demigods, my own body, the planets, my past work, or time.Rather, it is the mind alone that causes happiness and distress and perpetuates therotation of material life. (Note he says his past work is also not cause of his suffering).

I simply disagree with your interpretation. Now again I argue on the basis of the Purportof B.V.B. Quote: Though a man carries something using his hand, we say that the hand

carries an object. Similarly, because jiva accomplishes using prakti, the scriptures saythat prakti accomplishes.


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then what does he blame his suffering on?

SB 11.23.44: Although present along with the struggling mind within the material body,the Super soul is not endeavoring, because He is already endowed with transcendentalenlightenment. Acting as my friend, He simply witnesses from His transcendentalposition. I, the infinitesimal spirit soul, on the other hand, have embraced this mind,

which is the mirror reflecting the image of the material world. Thus I have becomeengaged in enjoying objects of desire and am entangled due to contact with the modesof nature.

So he attributes his suffering to his embracing of his mind which is also called ignorance.He further argues that happiness and distress is not part of the soul (hence materialdesire is not part of the soul.

This is your own speculation. The Sastras are like the bright sunshine and your

interpretation are like clouds blocking the sunshine. (With due respects).You have beenreading the philosophies of too many European thinkers. And by the way, embracing thematerial mind is also a material activity of the soul. And also if the material desire is not apart of the soul he shouldnt be embracing the material mind. If you say it is bcos ofignorance, it is not a spiritual attribute either.Also the last statement, Thus I have become engaged in enjoying objects of desire and

am entangled due to contact with the modes of nature. Is very important to note. Thus itis very much possible that The soul can enjoy materially and thus be active evenmaterially.

The statement "Acquiring those potencies, the jiva exerts his free will and assumescontrol of his body and senses for the purpose of fulfilling karmic endeavors. " Is notcorrect as confirmed here.The fact that the soul is embracing the material mind indicates he is fulfilling his materialdesires. You should also read the purports along with the context in which they arequoted or you will be mislead.SB 11.23.54: If we assume that fruitive work is the cause of happiness and distress, we

still are not dealing with the soul. The idea of material work arises when there is aspiritual actor who is conscious and a material body that undergoes the transformationof happiness and distress as a reaction to such work. Since the body has no life, it cannot

be the actual recipient of happiness and distress, nor can the soul, who is ultimatelycompletely spiritual and aloof from the material body. Since karma thus has no ultimatebasis in either the body or the soul, at who can one become angry?There is nothing in this verse too that contradicts B.V.Bs statements. This says thatfruitive work is not the cause of happiness and distress. So there is no use blaming it.Further................SB 11.23.55: If we accept time as the cause of happiness and distress, that experiencestill cannot apply to the spirit soul, since time is a manifestation of the Lord's spiritual


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potency and the living entities are also expansions of the Lord's spiritual potencymanifesting through time. Certainly a fire does not burn its own flames or sparks, nordoes the cold harm its own snowflakes or hail. In fact, the spirit soul is transcendental

and beyond the experience of material happiness and distress. At whom, therefore,should one become angry?

This verse says that it is not time which the cause of the happiness distress is.I again quote from BVBThe followers of skhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements all activities are

carried out by the modes (BG 3.27) prakti is the doer (BG 13.20), everything is

done by prakti alone (BG 13.29) and the guas alone are the agent (BG 14.19),

claim that prakti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since

prakti, like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element. The ability to gainknowledge, perceive, desire and act--the qualities of the agent--belong to consciousentities alone. The ruti says vijna yaja tanute karmi tanutepi ca: the jvaaccomplishes knowledge, sacrifice and action. (Taittirya Upaniad 2.5) ruti also says:

ea hi dra spra rot rasayit ghrt mant boddh kart vijntm purua:

the conscious tm alone is the seer, toucher, hearer, taster, smeller, thinker, knower,

and agent. (Prana Upaniad 4.9)

Further......SB 11.23.56: The false ego gives shape to illusory material existence and thus experiences

material happiness and distress. The spirit soul, however, is transcendental to materialnature; he can never actually be affected by material happiness and distress in any place,under any circumstance or by the agency of any person. A person who understands thishas nothing whatsoever to fear from the material creation.

The conclusion or essence of his song is this, following verse.SB 11.23.57: I shall cross over the insurmountable ocean of nescience by being firmlyfixed in the service of the lotus feet ofKrsna. This was approved by the previous cryas,who were fixed in firm devotion to the Lord, Paramtm, and the Supreme Personality of

Godhead.

If the soul is materially inactive there would have been no necessity of bringing out thedemerits of this material world so graphically by using adjectives like insurmountable

and nouns like ocean of nescience etc. This verse is exclusively to discourage material

activity and taking up d.s.

It is also confirmed in the Jaiva Dharma. Chapter 1

"The eternal nature of a thing is its eternal religion. The religion of something comes

from its original identity. When Lord Krishna desires to create something, He creates its

original nature. That original nature is its eternal religion. However, when as thing comes

into contact with other things, its nature may become changed. After some days that

changed state becomes firmly established and it seems to be the eternal nature of the


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thing. However this changed nature is not in truth the real nature of the thing . These

changed natures are called nisarga. I will give you an example of such a changed nature.

Water has an original nature. The original nature of water is that it is liquid. However, in

contact with certain circumstance, that nature becomes changed and the formerly liquid

water may become solid ice. That is the changed nature of water, which seems to be its

original nature. However, this changed nature is not eternal. It is always temporary. It is

manifested for some reason, it remains for some time, and eventually it disappears of its

own accord. On the other hand, the original nature of a thing is eternal. Even when the

changed nature is manifested, the original nature remains, although it is dormant. In the

course of time, when circumstances are favorable, the original nature is again openly

manifested.

"the original nature of a thing is eternal. Its changed nature is temporary. One who

knows the truth knows the difference between the eternal and temporary nature. One

who does not know the truth thinks the temporary nature is eternal."

----------------------------------------------

So the original nature is transcendental and it is not that the original nature itself

changes, this is impossible otherwise we wouldnt have used the word eternal nature. It

becomes superimposed by artificial nature and then that artificial nature becomes well

established the real nature is dormant (or soul is sleeping/inactive)

Again super speculation. What is this superimposed and stuff. Where is it said by B.V.T.?

All he is saying is its nature may become changed. Please dont speculate? You may then

argue that if it is changed then how it could be eternal? Yes, But that is written. And thathas to be possible. Both have to be true on the spiritual realm. We must never change

the wordings of the scripture to make it fit into our logic. Words like superimposed are

not warranted. It is a product of a fertile speculative brain.

This is not supported by the Sastras and the Acaryas. The soul is always the doer and not

the modes, whether conditioned or liberated. The soul has triggered the modes to bear

upon him.

How is that? Why do you say that the soul has triggered the modes? The scriptures say

that soul is trapped by the modes since time immemorial. As per my replies above would

you still say that soul is the doer of material activities? If yes then how is this GaudiyaVedanta?

It seems to be like the superficial Christianity like they say like this "we have sinned, we

left God and did evil and now we repent, the Son of God will deliver us from our sins."

But practitioners of esoteric Christianity say that there is a Jesus Christ a Son of God

everyone, one has to just discover that and be in touch with that. This according to me

sounds more like Vaishnavism.

I have already given quotes above and here is another one.S.P lecture rmad-

Bhgavatam 1.15.1New York, November 29, 1973: We living entities, we are eternally

servant of Ka. That is our position. But if we deny this position, "Now why shall I


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become servant of Ka? I am independent," then suffering begins, immediate. Kabhuliya jva bhoga vacha kare, as soon as you desire to enjoy independently,immediatelythat means immediately he is captured by may.

Ka bhuliya jva bhoga vacha kare pate may tare jpaiy dhareIt is very easy to understand. Just like if you don't care for the government laws, if youwant to live independently, that means immediately you are in the clutches of the policeforce. You haven't got to create, it is already there. So our position is always dependenton God. We should understand this. This is Ka consciousness.The Mahayana Buddhists also say that there is a Bodhisattva in everyone, and everyoneis potentially a Buddha. The Advaita Vedantists also say that everyone is Bramha (AhamBramhasmi) but unfortunately they confuse the Bramha with Para Bramha. The sankhyayogis (not the atheistic)( Shri VijyanBhikshu etc) also say that the soul is present ineveryone and is transcendental.

These philosophies seem to really pamper my false ego to think I am sooooooo pure. I

feel really good. I want to believe in it. But unfortunately it is not our Gaudiya Siddhantaand so I wont.

And finally the crest jewel of all debaters Lord Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also confirmsthe same in this immortal verse He sang in front of Lord Jagannath.Naham vipro Na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo Na sudro

Naham varni Na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir vaKintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher

Gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

"I am not a Brahmana; I am not a ksatriya; I am not a vaisyo or a Sudra. Nor am I abrahmachary, a householder, a vanaprastha, or a Sanyaasi. I identify myself only as theservant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer ofthe Gopis. He is like an ocean of nectar, and he is the cause of universal transcendentalbliss. He always exists with brilliance." (Padyavali74). He never said," I was evil soul andthrough repentance I have become a good soul and I wont go back to becoming an evilsoul because I have learnt my lesson." No He says He was never an evil soul but always a

servant of servant of Shri Krishna.

Now again another case of mental speculation. He was never an evil soul. Good

gracious. This is in the past tense. But everything is in the present continuous tense in theabove verse. So your purport is a misrepresentation.Quoting BVBB.G 13.29. He who sees all activities being done by matter alone, and sees the soul asdoing nothing, actually sees. How does he perform this distinction of the individual selffrom prakti?[3] The Lord explains in two verses.


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He who sees that all activities are being done by prakti alone, and impelled by the Lord,

by my superintendence (indicated by the word ca), and sees the tm as not doing those

activities, he alone sees himself as he truly is.

This is the meaning. I, a jva, having a nature of knowledge and bliss, do not actually

perform the actions which produce suffering, such as fighting or sacrifice. Inspired by the

Supreme Lord according to my desires for fulfilling my enjoyment, and superintended by

me who have lost discrimination and possess beginning less impressions for enjoyment,

this prakti alone with the nature of happiness, distress and illusion does the actions,

through my body and senses. Because of supplying the body and senses, prakti is the

doer of the actions. Prakti is the doer of the actions because of being the instrument.

The pure jva, the non-doer, is separate from prakti which accomplishes that action. By

this (since he sees the jva as non-doer in material acts) it is clear that such a person also

sees that the pure jiva is also a doer.

So in conclusion the Acaryas say that the soul is completely transcendental and by nature

it loves servant of Lord Krishna, but due to ignorance its suffering.

Again I have refuted this claim of yours on the basis of the teachings of Baladeva VidyaBhusana, Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur, Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

Please dont bear any offense; I am really grateful for your wonderful thoughts and forbearing patience with me.

Please dont mind my refutations either. You are my friend. I still remember you whileyou were here during the Gita course and your visit to India during vacations. You arecertainly a deep thinker and a person with service attitude. And I appreciate that.However the philosophy as I have been taught by my gurus differs from yours and thus Ihave to present the points accordingly. I dont claim to know a lot. I am not a scholar. Iam only repeating. So thank you very much for your patience. All the best.Hare Krsna.

Thank You.

Your

Servant

***********Akd's replies in Dark Brown Color***************Hare KrishnaDear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,


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Thank you very much for your email. Now I exactly understand why you wrote that

article, and I guess you understand why I wrote my comments, doubts. Both of us have

different points of views, and I guess we have to agree to disagree.

My understanding of Shri Baladeva Vidybhsana is quite different from yours.

I know many devotees/ISKCON Gurus/Gurus outside ISKCON etc who also support myview.Why don't take the official ISKCON GBC View on it. Reference quoted in the last para ofthis mail.And I specifically quote from a source whom you have great faith in and whom I alsorespect very much which is HH Radhanath Swami.HH Radhanath Swami (From nectar drops page 72)"When the soul - which is sat cit ananda, is clouded by the false ego, the mind tries to find

pleasure somewhere else through the senses"

Hare Krsna happen to be the unworthy disciple of the person you are quoting above. Hehas delivered more lectures in ISKCON Chowpatty than any other place in the world. Ihave by causeless mercy had the opportunity to hear a large no. of them. And I can tell

by my experience the statement above only speaks about the soul being clouded by falseego which I agree cent percent. However where is the statement, saying that ignoranceor false ego is the original cause of the fall down which is the topic under discussion?There is none. The quotation you have cited is extremely inadequate in helping one cometo any conclusion. I am surprised you quoted such a weak proof to substantiate yourcase after presenting stronger ones earlier.

I would yet again quote the explicit purport of BVB on this topic

"When there are statements in scripture saying that prakrti is the doer, those statementsare made in order to show the prominence of her functioning. Though a man carriessomething using his hand, we say that the hand carries an object."

The followers of skhya, taking isolated m

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