Gnomes in Middle Earth

8/20/2019 Gnomes in Middle Earth

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Gnomes in Middle Earth ?

EJ Womble (30/05/02)

To All:What do you think about this:

Myth of the Gnomes

Many a dwarf remembers well, from his/her childhood days, the severe scoldings they would receive from their

parents or an elder in their tribe followed, time and again, by the ominus warning !f you don"t behave, theGnomes will come and take you away#

The gnome is to a dwarf as the boogie$man is to man %or any imaginary, threatening, being is to any other race&' (ut like so many myths and legends from times long since past, sometime these imaginary threats are

based on long forgotten truths'''

)istory of the Gnome *ace

+uring the dawn of the A when the dwarven race was awaken from their long sleep and the -even .athersdivided their tribes to go their seperate ways, an ighth .ather was left to slumber a bit longer' When he awokehe was consumed with 0ealousy and anger toward the -even .athers who had already settled their tribes in the best lands, leaving so very little for his own tribe' )e vowed revenge against all the -even .athers for havingforsaken him and took his people underground, here to live in darkness for all time $ as far from the -even.athers as he could travel'

+eep in the earth the ighth .ather found a place unspoiled, filled with all manner of riches in the form of silver,

gold, mithril and precious gemstone' )ere he built his peoples home *ock +ome and began to build a horde of great wealth' -oon his tribe began to flurious and spread with new tribes springing up where every the earth"streasures were in great abundance'

The ighth .ather named his people gnomes and with the passing of time they became a different race $ appartfrom the dwarves of the top world' They became hairless and pale of skin' Their vision in the dark had becomegreat, their teeth sharp and pointed, their backs gnarled and twisted' They were gifted like no dwarf had ever been in the ways of metallurgy and magic, crafting great works of metal and stone'

(ut they had grown 0ealous of the .athers above' vil had crept into their nature $ for they were greedy and foul,

eating the flesh of other races who travelled to deep below the earth' 1urses became their special art and theywere woven into many of their greatest works' When the -even .athers began to delve into the earth for itsriches, the gnomes felt violated, for the realm beneath the surface was promised to them and them lone by their

.ather, long ago'

War errupted, the likes of no other the dwarves had ever known' Gnomes would tunnel into their great houses

and attack them in their sleep, killing all $ man, woman or child $ without mercy or conscience, weilding cursedweapons of great power and unbriddled dark magics' They would further eat the flesh of their victims and carryoff their heads and children#

The -even )ouses united and genocide was declared upon the Gnomes of *ock +ome and all its people werehunted to e2tinction before the dawn of the 3ew Age %4A&'

And so now, only myth and legend remain, among most dwarfs gnomes never really e2isted $ only in fairytales and stories to frighten misbehaving children'''

(ut not all the gnomes were found and killed, in that time, long, long, ago'''


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There numbers have been steadily increasing over the years in the ruins of their buried and long forgottenhome'''

3ow, they are ready to, once again, make their presence known to the world above and revenge themselves uponthe dwarves'''

!f you don"t behave, the Gnomes will come and take you away# (e afraid, be very afraid'''

Note: 0ust to add a little spice to what was turning out to be a 5uite boring episode in a 6A campaign ! wasrunning, ! dropped my 71"s down a concealed pit %in dense forest& into, what appeared to be, a long abandonedtunnel leading deep underground' 1urious, they followed it and were eventually captured by gnomes, whomarched them to *ock +ome to meet with their 8ing and a festival was held in their honor $ of course they had

no idea that they were the main dish#

The name of this adventure is the Gnomes of *ock +ome and it turned out to be one of my more interrestingdungeon/adventures#

Steve anni!an (30/05/02)

9

! 5uiet like this bogey man story $ has a nice feel to it' uestion is $ how much is truthful; ! e2pect that many+warves in 8ha


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! like the idea of this Gnome thing' Whilst the actual mechanics of it can be discussed the seeds are fairly good'*emind me somewhat of the "7etty +warves", but with a twist'


-teve %and All&,

!t has been suggested that the name Gnomes be changed to somthing else $ since in some of Tolkien"sunpublished works the 3oldor were also refered to as Gnomes'

+o you believe that the name should be changed %to perserve any precedence set forth by Tolkien in his writings$ publshed or not& or is the name >8 %! would rather there not be any confusion in the matter&;

What do you think;


! think that any reference to the 3oldor as Gnomes should remain strictly unpublished' Gnomes are %sort of&recognised for what they are %and this is 3ot 3oldor& and this makes their "+warven" connection more plausibleand realistic' To call them something different would be in effect 0ust adding a new race of "7etty +warves"whereas ! don"t think this is what 9 had in mind when he wrote his stuff' ! like the legend and with a bit of

tinkering it could be worked' Whether these Gnomes are stuff of legends or some radiation sick small tribe of +warves is not all that important %relatively&, but the folklore thing ! can 5uiet dig %e2cuse the pun&'

%or& '$shton (30/05/02)

!t all depends, ! guess' !"m inclined to allow multiple meanings for the same word, because ! feel M is big

enough to handle it' !f you don"t use the early te2ts, it wouldn"t matter much, and Gnomes is fine'

!f you say %as ! do& that most of 9**T wrote is available to 71s as alternate %often incorrect& versions of the

history, you might have more of a problem' (ut there are so many peoples in M that the +warves of one tribe,for e2ample, shouldn"t be constrained to rename their legend because of some obscure 3oldorin te2t where theycall themselves Gnomes'

?et"s have two types of Gnomes' The real world has words that mean more than one thing' They"re calledhomonyms' @&


There is a certain sense of irony that a twisted dwarf type people should also be named as )igh lves' +id the+warves name the Gnomes %in mockery&;


Thanks -teve and 1ory,

nless there are other numerous ob0ections voiced at some later date $ Gnomes it is#!"d rather hoped the name would stick $ the name was, of course, the whole reason behind the creation of thisdwarven folk lore'Again, thanks for your input and support' :&


-teve,

! never gave it much thought %but ! doubt it&' .unny you should mention it though $ since dwarves have a certain

disdain for elves %in general&'To call a dwarf petty or a gnome must be a ma0or insult $ don"t you think; :&


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Gabriele $a!lia (30/05/02)

)i 9,

good idea indeed' !mpossible in part %alas#& but really interesting'

.irst, Tolkien used the word Gnomes, but he referred to 3oldor %Gnomes comes from the Greek root of knowledge, being a good nglish translation for Golodhrim, Wise$people&' ! guess you refer to the 7etty+warves, or 3oegyth 3ibin, that Tolkien shows in the ?ay of the 1hildren of )Brin %read it in -il and ?ostTales&'

! think Tolkien never meant to detail further, and this is an interesting field of discussion' ! think that your storyis perfect to be told by the 7etty +warves themselves, or even by ignorant +warves' >f course, as we all know,the +warf .athers were C, and it is unlikely that Aule forgot one, or simply didn"t care about him'The 7etty +warves are a corrupted people: in this ! could envisage the work of -hadow, albeit uncomplete %theyare not evil, 0ust weird&' !t is possible that they were a half$people like the mli, or common +warves who mate

between themselves'Also, -teve"s idea about 1elebur %-' ranium&, a metal known by -auron, and capable of making alloys of

e2ceptional powers' ! can suggest that -auron trained dwarves in this crafts, without talking about side effects'The survivors were twisted in body %and therefore mind&, and became the outcast 7etty +warves' Also, soon theylost their knowledge of magical alloys, becoming more rangers than smiths' 7erhaps the origin of the ight.ather legend has a Morgothic or -auronic origin:

Aule crafted you .!*-T' Then he made seven younger brothers' 1oveting your firstborn rights, they convincedAule that you were unworthy of him' (ut you are the original children of Aule: you deserve to take the possessions and revenge upon your younger brothers#

3ow that ! think, !"m sure ?>M !!! suggests something %ric; What do you think;&

Geor!e "hoto#o$los (30/05/02)

3ot gnolls, they"re supposed to be humanoids with dog heads, aren"t they; The gnomes otoh are an offshoot of

the +warves, right; ?et me think about it, and !"ll try to come up with a name suggestion'

Jason le*ander o+man (30/05/02)

Well, in +D+ gnolls are canine humanoids, but ! believe in *M--/*M.*7 gnolls are more like small hobbits, but ! don"t know much about them' ! have one in the party !"m in right now, and he"s a little guy, about E feet tall'

(ut ! think we"ve established that gnomes would be a fine name' ven though the 3oldor may be refered to asgnomes somewhere, it"s probably an obscure enough reference that it should still work' As someone mentioned,

there are plenty of words that have more than one meaning' !t would be different if 3oldo elves were alwaysrefered to as gnomes'

Eri, -$bo$r! (30/05/02)

)i all,

These ideas about 7etty$+warves and/or Gnomes and we should use them for a land of eastern or northernmiddle earth' Why not the !lluin (ay ;

! love the idea of the ight .ather legend' The Gnomes could be related to the +warves, 0ust like mli and 7etty$+warves'

!"ve downloaded a document about the 7etty +warves which was originally published in the Adventurer 1lubMaga


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-o ! take it that the idea of Gnomes in M is an acceptable one to most of the memebers of our group' ! further take it that most members agree that they are more closely related to 7etty$+warves than to normal dwarves%perhaps an off shoot or even a particular 7etty$+warf tribe, long forgotten& and that the history surroundingtheir origin needs a little work %some like the ighth .ather idea and some do not, looking for something more

acceptable&'

This is a good beginning for our discussion on the topic, perhaps with a concentrated effort from A?? we cancome up with a detailed history %folk tale/legend base& that is acceptable to most of the members of our group'

Thanks for all the suggestions, ideas and insights offered thus far, keep those ideas rolling# :&

Jason le*ander o+man (3./05/02)

! don"t know how closely the 7etty$+warves and "regular" dwarves are related, or when the 7etty$+warves became a distinct group, so ! can"t say which is best' )owever, if you"re going to keep some of what is "known"

about gnomes legends, then their e2act relation to dwarves and 7etty$+warves and whether or not the "ighth.ather" thing is true or not is irrelevant' 3ow if someone insists that what is known is divided into both legend

and "fact", then ! honestly think it"s probably overkill' nless a part of the module/adventure consists of the 71"sdiscovering the truth' -till, ! think it"s a great place to start, so why not build on it; ! also like the idea of 1elebdil%right, the metal that is radioactive& being what has "twisted" the gnomes'

EJ Womble (3./05/02)

9ason,7oint taken'

7erhaps the true origin and history of the Gnome race should be shrouded in a little mystery %myth and legends

are often times more e2citing to read about than actual facts&, but ! don"t know how well this idea will go over with the other members'!t seems that with most of the work others have done for the group alot of time and effort is paid to details

%filling in all or as many of the gaps as possible on a particular sub0ect or topic& leaving very little to speculationor self interpetation' !t may be different with a myth or legend, however, but then again, the group may wish toe2pose the misconceptions/inaccuracies of this uni5ue folk tale, bringing to light the true facts which may, in

turn, kill the myth $ There is no real -anta 1laus, he was 0ust a man'7ersonally, ! kind of like the mystery which surrounds the Gnomes true origin %however, ! am open to the ideaof creating a detailed history, as long as it sounds good'''& :&7'-' ! don"t care what anyone else says''' there really is a boogie$man# %ha''ha''ha#& :&

Mie er! (3./05/02)

)i all,

! too like Gnomes in Middle arth, ! see them as 7etty +warves or an off shoot of them'

!n !1"s ?ords of Middle arth !!!, they tell how the 7etty +warves broke away from the rest of the +warves'% page FC & (ror Grimfist slew his older brother with one punch' Then he was banished from the city of

Tumun


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! wrote 5uite a lot on 7etty +warf holds from the grand, % in there standards & to dirt poor %in 3urn &'Also 5uite a bit of history of how they ended up at each sight' ! believe there were three places that they lived inaccording to the -ilmarillion' ! don"t have my notes in front of me' ! am in the process of getting them together'

Gnomes and "ett& -+arves


To All:

9ust for the record, ! always envisioned Gnomes as being a race seperate from 7etty$+warves'

! kind of like the idea or notion that radiation may have played a part in the deformation of the Gnome race over the passing of thousands of years'

!t can also be used to e2plain the notion or belief that they wrought curses into their greatest works of metaland stone %perhaps they were radioactive, causing illness and/or death to any who possessed these items for too

long a period of time $ the curse of the Gnomes#&

! also like the idea that perhaps the ighth .ather %and yes ! am aware that only -even .athers were ever mentioned& was kind of an older brother to the more refine seven younger siblings' 7erhaps the -even .atherswere shown a certain amount of favortism by Aule, which in turn instilled 0ealousy and a sense of ine5uality inthe elder .ather %who was being treated like a step child or closet relative no one speaks about or pays muchattention to&' 7erhaps Aule attempted to make amends for his mistreatment of the ighth .ather by offering his

tribe sole access to the lands and treasures of the nder +eeps $ a promise broken by the -even siblings whenthey began to plunder the underworld for it"s riches''' food for thought&'

What do you think;

Steve anni!an (3./05/02)

9!t depends very much on what your trying to create; At some point the origins of Gnomes will have to be workedout, but ! would be a bit reluctant to mess about with Gods as it"s always walking on thin ice' ! always think thatone should try and rationalise something in the real world first and then add the mythe later %if indeed the Hthfather mythe is one your happy with&' That way it makes the whole thing slightly more believable %and plausible&

and makes an e2cellent argument for their introduction'*emember $ messing with the Gods goes to the fundamentals of +warvin kind $ and that can always be a bittricky'


-teve,

Got you %about the tinkering with Gods stuff&'

! was 0ust pondering aloud, that is all''' the ighth .ather is 0ust a myth %really&, a story handed down over theages which is most likely 3>T true %a misconseption $ a cute story&'

Though the e2istance of Gnomes in M was intended to be true %not a myth&' :&

Thanks for your advice'

Gabriele $a!lia (3./05/02)

)i 9,


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I 7erhaps the true origin and history of the Gnome race should be shrouded in a little mystery %myth andlegends are often times more e2citing to read about than actual facts&, but ! don"t know how well this idea will goover with the other members'

! take your point' ! thought you wanted to detail, but if you want to stop at the legend it"s >8 %maybe even

better&'

I 7ersonally, ! kind of like the mystery which surrounds the Gnomes true origin %however, ! am open to theidea of creating a detailed history, as long as it sounds good'''& :&

! made my suggestion, keep it or trash it, as you will :$&

(TW, what"s the difference bewteen Gnomes and 7etty +warves;


To All:

Gabriele asked what were the differences between 7etty +warves and Gnomes %a valid 5uestion which othersmay be wondering about as well&;

!"m not an e2pert on 7etty$+warves %!"m sure there are MA3= in our group more knowledgable on the sub0ectthan !&, but ! will try to e2plain the obvious differences in the two races as ! see them %correct me if !"m wrong or completely out of line $ please#&'

7etty$+warves

.rom what !"ve gathered and read about, 7etty$+warves are in most ways like normal dwarves' They tend to be a

bit shorter $ E$6 foot in height %as opposed to 6$J foot& $ than normal dwarves, darker in comple2ion %less ruddy&,ill tempered, e2tremely selfish and self$centered %in most, but not all cases& and 0ust down right mean and anti$social beings %e2cept perhaps among their own kind $ other 7etty$+warves, that is&, but not neccessarily evil'=ou could probably still pick one out of a line$up of average dwarves, but on a whole they look alot like normaldwarves %this is the impression ! get and is only my opinion&'

Gnomes

Gnomes started out as normal dwarves $ resembling the tribes of the -even .athers in ever way' >ver the passingof thousands of years, there appearence changed %why and how is left to speculation&' They became significantlypaler than the average dwarf %in many cases appearing almost as albino&, far less hairy, with many becoming

completely bald and hairless in the later years of their life' Their limbs and spines are often times misshapened%even at birth&, appearing gnarled and twisted' They are corrupted beings, evil by nature with no conscious or compassion for any race other than their own' They have a deep rooted hatred of all people who live aboveground, but especially toward dwarves, whom they loathe and despise %were they always this way, it"s hard tosay' ! don"t believe they started out as being evil, ! believe they were corrupted by someone or something

which warped and twisted their minds and bodies turning them into the vile creatures they are now&' +eformaties

of bones, teeth and nails give many Gnomes the appearence of having spines, 0agged or pointed teeth and claws'!t is said that in total darkness one can see a reddish glow eminating from their eyes'

!t has been suggested that e2posure to radiation over many generations is a plausable e2planation for the Gnomescurrent condition %is this the actual case, one can only speculate&'

!"m sure there are significant differences in the social structure and religion of 7etty$+warf and Gnome society%when compared to that of normal dwarves&, but for this discussion/comparison we will only focus on the physical differences in the two %three& races'

As you can clearly see, Gnomes look nothing like 7etty$+warves %!"m sure they act nothing like them as well&'

! hope this helps to clear up %and not further complicate& thedifferences in the two races' !f you have any

5uestions, feel free to drop me an e$mail'


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Gabriele,

+id you catch my e$mail on the differences between 7etty$+warves and Gnomes ! sent out;

! don"t want others to feel uneasy about the introduction of any of my ideas %if you don"t like or care for them,don"t use them&' Most of my ideas are aimed solely as game suppliments for M*7 %! know that"s not the mainaim of the fan$module group, but perhaps one or two of my ideas will be good enough to make it into one of your world e2pansion modules&'!"ve been running M*7 campaigns %off and on& since the game came out, so ! have a lot of ideas developed for

the game''' soe people will like, but most people will not $ !"m trying to pick ideas that ! think others in the groupmight consider interesting and not too contriversal'

William Wilson (03/01/02)

I -o ! take it that the idea of Gnomes in M is an acceptable one to most of the memebers of our group' !

further take it that most members agree that they are more closely related to 7etty$+warves than to normaldwarves %perhaps an off shoot or even a particular 7etty$+warf

! think a little more research is going to need to be done on the topic of Gnomes' My understanding from reading?ost Tales and other writings of Tolkien is that the term Gnome was an early term used for lves not any type of +warves' !n some of the articles !"ve seen on the lvish language Gnomish was close to the language of the

3oldor'

liver S,hi, (03/01/02)

)i 9,

!"m not very fond of the gnome history$$!"d suggest the following:

=ou could e2plain the saying of +warvish parents to their children much better if you take it as referring to the

lves %as has been noted, it was Tolkien"s first name for what would become the 3oldor&, and thus to some of theconflicts between lves and +warves in the A' This would give this children"s scare story a historicaldimension, which is often the case with "bogey$man" stories, apparently'

As has been noted and as you agree, it makes no sense at all to invent an eighth father of the dwarves, as it"s inclear and une5uivocal contradiction to Tolkien' As a false myth %contradiction in terms&, it makes sense,however' !t must be the story that Morgoth told to his victims to make them 0ustify their attacks on dwarves inthis way' !"d suggest to make the gnomes %though another name might be better$$"gnomes" could, of course, beused as the nglish translation of the Westron/-indarin term, 0ust like "orks" was the nglish translation of thevery similar -indarin word$$so something similar in sound to "gnomes" might be the Westron/-indarin word& the

result of Morgoth"s attempt to pervert the dwarves to his uses' >wing to their still implicit allegiance to hisgreatest rival Aule, however, they were far too stubborn to obey him like whoever were the ancestors of the orcsdid' !"d suggest that they weren"t cowed by Morgoth"s command but preferred to die and be tortured rather than be mass$bred and form his armies, so that he formed another plan, setting them free in order to wreak havoc on

their own'!n this way, you get an interesting parallelism with e2isting Tolkien stories@ if the orks are somehow the product

of corruption of elves and men %we don"t 5uite know who& and the trolls that of ents, then it"s only logical thatMorgoth tried to corrupt some dwarves, as well$$i'e', all of the .ree 7eoples' At the same time, it complementsthe story of the *ings of 7ower, to which the dwarves, likewise, reacted in a different manner than men')aving said that, !"m e2tremely un$fond of introducing new races into M$e$$! don"t like the mli one bit, either'!f anything, !"d suggest that you make the "gnomes" very few and far between, and not living in the areas mapped by Tolkien, as this seems like the kind of invention only warranted by being beyond the boundaries of his

chronicle' (ut that"s an opinion ! can"t support by any direct reference to Tolkien' 1ertainly, the "gnomes" shouldnot really count as a separate race any more than the petty$dwarves did@ they should be twisted dwarves, but nottotally unlike dwarves %which ! don"t think you intended, anyway'& !"d suggest a kind of parasiticarrangement$$"gnomes" should live close to dwarven dwellings, not have ma0or cities of their own@ they should beengaged in their 5uest for vengeance with the necessary caution owing to their small numbers' (ut these are only

suggestions, see what you think of them'


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Kisually, !"d make them less different from other dwarves than you suggest$$i'e', why pointed teeth; ! don"t think that there is any "evolution" in Tolkien"s work apart from changes to the lifespan of men, which seems directlydue to grace, and Gollum"s development, which is e2plained by his e2posure to the >ne *ing' All other changesin the makeup of creatures seem not due to "evolution", but to direct intervention by a powerful being$$which isanother reason why !"d suggest the "gnomes" were bred by Morgoth rather than that they "evolved" in the darkness'

! don"t know what Tolkien thought of +arwin but, 0udging by his being a 1atholic, probably not much'

I )e vowed revenge against all the -even .athers for having forsaken him and took his people underground,here to live in darkness for all time $ as far from the -even .athers as he could travel'

)e would have had to be angry at !luvatar, who awakened the dwarven fathers, rather than the fathers

themselves' (ut this might be another distortion of the truth made by Morgoth'

)ope this helps,

EJ Womble (0/01/02)

>liver,

!"ve been waiting %a bit impatiently and nervously& to hear your opinion %which ! respect greatly& on the sub0ectof Gnomes in M'

! e2pected you to totally hate the idea, it"s nice, however, to hear instead that you are 0ust un$fond of the idea' :&

About the name Gnomes, several members brought up the connection of its referance to lves $ particulaly the 3oldor $ in Tolkien"s early writings %which !"m sure you picked up on in our e$mail discussions on thesub0ect&'The census was that the name Gnome would be >8 to use $ even you said yourself that this could be theWestron translation of the word' )owever, ! would like to come up with another name $ like the -indarin names 3augrim %used for dwarves& and the 3ibin$3oeg or 3ibin$3ogrim %for petty$dwarves& $ !"m not good with names

%in general& so would appreciate any help that could be provided in this area':&

! like what you have suggested about the corruption of the +warven race by Morgoth and how this is the most

likely way the Gnome race came into being %while still keeping the idea of the false myth alive as a lie told tohis victims&'

7ointed teeth are not important %though you could better e2plain them by saying that they were created byritual filing $ ! believe, but !"m not sure, that some primitive cultures in our world practiced something similar&'That is, of course, if you wanted to keep the pointed teeth image $ but ! can take it or leave it, again, it is notthat important'

Thanks for your constructive comments and critisms %and for not 0ust tearing into the idea&' :&

liver S,hi, (05/01/02)

)i 9,

I !"ve been waiting %a bit impatiently and nervously& to hear your opinion %which ! respect greatly& on the sub0ect

of Gnomes in M'

sorry for the delay$$!"ll try to respond more speedily from now, but !"m still a bit stuck for time' Thanks for thekudos$$but bear in mind that like everyone ! can be very wrong, too#

I ! e2pected you to totally hate the idea, it"s nice, however, to hear instead that you are 0ust un$fond of the idea'

Well, !"d never use it in one of my campaigns, but given what !1 has introduced into M$e over the years, !guess you become used to things '''

> About the name Gnomes, several members brought up the connection of its referance to Elves - particulaly the

Noldor - in Tolkien's early ritings !hich "'m sure you picked up on in our e-mail discussions on the sub#ect$%The census as that the name Gnome ould be & to use - even you said yourself that this could be the


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(estron translation of the ord% )oever, " ould like to come up ith another name - like the *indarin names

Naugrim !used for darves$ and the Nibin-Noeg or Nibin-Nogrim !for petty-darves$ - "'m not good ith names

!in general$ so ould appreciate any help that could be provided in this area%+$

!f you really want to keep the story, another name would be good@ it should perhaps be something that lvish

scholars called them when researching dwarves'

> ointed teeth are not important !though you could better eplain them by saying that they ere created by

.ritual. filing - " believe, but "'m not sure, that some primitive cultures in our orld practiced something

similar$%

They still do$$whether you"d call them "primitive", though, is a matter of heated anthropological debate' !"m no

cultural relativist, but ! certainly think that some aspects of our industrialised societies are considerably more"primitive" than those of peoples living closer to nature' %! think some %western& "-atanists" do it'& That said, ! findthe idea of filing teeth simply abhorrent' !t has been overdone a bit, though, especially in fantasy stuff !"ve seen'

'oberto S$are4 (0/01/02)

>n May/EL/4LL4, M?T!$MANwebtv'net wrote:

I nless there are other numerous ob0ections voiced at some later date $ Gnomes it is#

! know it"s a long time since that post, but !"m still getting up to date with the mail in this list :$&

! think that one of the good things that Tolkien world has is that most of the words seem natural, and common'-o, why shouldn"t we use Gnomes; =ou can take it 0ust as a name in Westron, given by the few people thathave seen these dwarves' And it fits 5uite well, !M)>'

-o, though a bit late, ! also think that Gnomes is a good name for these petty dwarves with a twist :$&

(ut what you should also do is find some kind of name in 8hu


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Gnome history

EJ Womble (.3/0/02)

)i All,

!"ve been developing a few ideas to e2plain the origin of Gnomes, this is what ! have so far %sub0ect to change&:

!n Kalinor Melkor had spies among the Maiar@ they were his eyes and ears during the lder +ays when hewalked the lands of Middle$arth in shadow and solitude alone after the departure of the Kalar to the lands in theWest'

!t was through these spies he first heard the rumor of the creation of the -even .athers by Aule who was all tooimpatient for the coming of the 1hildren of !luvatar who he might instruct and teach his skills and crafts'

)is spies told him that !luvatar was not pleased by this and ordered Aule to put to rest the -even .athers,somewhere hidden, deep down in the bowls of the earth, to slumber and await the coming of the .irst (orn, atwhich time they would be awakened'

This intrigued Melkor and seeded within him renewed thoughts of want, desire and 0elousy for the works ofAule, for he could not create such things by his own hands' )e desired to know if the rumor be true and to findthe sleeping .athers where they lay so that he might pervert them to the will and likes of his own mind beforethey awakened in Arda'

-o to the hidden forges of Aule he travelled, buried deep in the earth below Kalinor, to discover the truth aboutthe creation of the -even .athers'

-ilent and always hidden in shadow Melkor scoured through the forges searching for clues, until he found whathe had been desiring' !n a large pile were heaped the discarded molds of seven small beings, upon the top of aneighth mold which had been cracked and remained yet unopened#

%Aule had originally created eight molds for the ight .athers he had at first imagined, but during their creation,

one of the molds cracked, horribly twisting and disfiguring his creation within' To this creation he never gave asecond thought and discarding it, for he had not yet finished it nor had he breathed life into it and so it was as ifit were a broken vase kindled from the furnace'&

Melkor re0oiced and reveled in the find, and taking the smal vassel to his bosom, he departed Kalinor for hisabode in tumno, forgetting allabout his search for the -even .athers'

!n tumno he opened the metal form and breathed life into the creation it held and was delighted' To )iscreation he gave the name Gnemlash, who would father a race the -even .athers would later name Gnomes')ere he corrupted them thoroughly and through his lies and deceit installed within them a deep hatred for Auleand the -even .athers who were soon to come' )e taught them his crafts and skills, to rival those that would betaught to the -even .athers by Aule and in tumno they served him as slaves til the day the Kalar came to the

great fortress and unroofed it"s halls, capturing Melkor, their master, to lead him away in chains'

The Gnomes, freed from the slavery of Melkos, 0ourneyed deep into the earth where they bred and establishedmany secret cities, among their greatest, from which Gnemlash and all subse5uent Gnomish 8ings would reignwas known as *ockdome in the common tongue'

3+

Well, what do you think; >8, possible or 3>T; ?et me know your thoughts %as ! am still fishing foracceptable ideas about the origin of Gnomes in M&'

Jason le*ander o+man(.3/0/02)

! like the story 9, but ! do not believe Melkor can breathe life into a creation, that is why he had to breed and

twist things to make his minions' !f ! am not mistaken, !lluvatar alone has the power to create life because healone "controls" the secret fire'


12/38

1an anyone out there confirm or deny what !"m saying;

>ther than that, ! really do like it' ! think that it would work 5uite well' And ! dare say it has a very "Tolkien$ish"feel to it'

Steve anni!an (.3/0/02)

! concur captain'! still think 9 should go with the *adiation idea on these gnomes' 7lausibility is the key $ keep the gods out of it%although nothing wrong with folklore&

EJ Womble (.3/0/02)

9ason,

! too was under the impression that Melkor could not create living things, that he lacked a certain amount ofknowledge and skill that"s why he warpped the work of others&'

3ow Aule obviously had the skill and knowledge %having created the -even .athers& and it is said the Melkor

and Aule were very much alike in craft and skill %the way they approached their work and labor in thought&' !figured in my story Aule had pretty much done all the work %on the ighth .ather&, but didn"t finish it because because he wanted all the fathers to be perfect and because the mold had cracked on the ighth he discarded itand instead concentrated his efforts on the remaining -even .athers which were whole'

Melkor finshed and breathed life into the ighth .ather %which wasn"t too difficult for him, since most of thework which was beyond his skill, knowledge and understanding had been already completed by Aule any way&and in this way created his first race of followers %children, servants, slaves, whatever one wishes to refer tothem as& which he had always sought to have'

7rior to his capture he cried out to his servants:

.ly my children and let them not discover you, for surely you will be destroyed by them# )ide yourselves deep

within the earth, where even the Aule the Terrible can not discover you# Always travel -outh, for in the 3orththey will always be seeking those things ! have created' 3ow go, multiply and prosper and remember well who,above all others, are your enemies $ the -even .athers and their creator Aule# (eware the many lies they will

weave to ensnare you, my children''' loathe and hate them withall your hearts# 3>W G>###


3o, the dwarves would never have had life if !lluvatar had not given it to them' When Aule made the C fathers,!lluvatar found out and was angry' Aule went to destroy them, but !lluvatar realised how much Aule loved his

creations %was Aule crying as he raised his hammer to destroy his creations; ! don"t remember& and decided togive them life and allow them to become another race' )owever, he wanted the elves to come first, so he put theC fathers to sleep until after the elves awoke'

3ow that !"m thinking about it, though, aren"t the C fathers cowering and trembling when Aule raises his hammerto smash them; That would seem to imply that they did, indeed, already have life' -o now !"m 5uestioning

myself' ! haven"t read the -ilmarillion in years, so this is all coming from memory'

1an anyone help me %and 9& out here;;

Gabriele $a!lia (.3/0/02)

)ello 9,

> (ell, hat do you think/ &, possible or N&T/ 0et me kno your thoughts !as " am still fishing for

.acceptable. ideas about the origin of Gnomes in 1E$%

3ice story'! have one 5uestion: does the theft of the ight .ather happen before or after the meeting of Aule with !lBvatar;


13/38

As ! remember, !lBvatar visited Aule, who tried to create life by himself, when the right to create it was left to the>ne' !lBvatar compalined about the conduct of Aule, but still he let him keep the +warves, and later the >negave them life, after the Awakening of the .irstborn' What about the Gnomes; !n fact, there is no need to e2plainit %who knows, after all;&, but ! wonder if it was !lBvatar who let Melkor steal the ight .ather, and later gavehim life'''

EJ Womble (.3/0/02)

9ason'

! believe the -even .athers were already alive and Aule had taught them the tongue of the +warves %8hu No, the dwarves would never have had life if Illuvatar had not

given it to them. When Aule made the 7 fathers, Illuvatar found out

and was angry. Aule went to destroy them, but Illuvatar realised how

much Aule loved his creations (was Aule crying as he raised his

hammer to destroy his creations? I dont remember!...

I believe it states that he 'wept'.

> ...and decided to give them life and allow them to become another

race. "owever, he wanted the elves to come first, so he #ut the 7

fathers to slee# until after the elves awo$e.

> Now that Im thin$ing about it, though, arent the 7 fathers

cowering and trembling when Aule raises his hammer to smash them?

%hat would seem to im#ly that they did, indeed, already have life. &o

now Im 'uestioning myself. I havent read the &ilmarillion in years,

so this is all coming from memory.

I believe it was when Aule noticed them cowering and trembling that

he realized that Iluvatar had given them life. Before that they were

little more than automatons, not able of independent action when

Aule's thoughts were elsewhere.


> I believe it was when Aule noticed them cowering and trembling that he

realied that Iluvatar had given them life. )efore that they were little

more than automatons, not able of inde#endent action when Aules thoughts

were elsewhere.

I do believe you're right, Jason. I was quite sure that only Illuvatar can breathe life intosomething, but I was thinking perhaps there was a Tolkien dichotomy at work here.

EJ Womble (.3/0/02)

)i All#


14/38

+iscovery of the Gnomes

!t was 5uit by accident that the Gnomes were finally discovered by the +warves' 3o one had known of their e2istence e2cept for Melkor %though Aule had begun their creation and had nearly finished the work, the momenthe noticed the flaw in his creation, he discarded it and forgot all about it $ one of many broken vases in hislife"s work&, though the dwarves had many legends about some dwarf$like race lurking in the shadows of the

nder +eeps, but they remained 0ust stories and tall tales used to frighten unwary travellers/e2plorers of theunderworld and, of course, small unruly children who tended to wander astray and too far from home#

(ut to these legends were finally given a single name Gnomes#

The dwarves had unwittingly stumbled upon one of the Gnomes secret cities, buried deep in the bowls of theearth' pto now they had remained hidden, fearing that their discovery would mean their destruction %as their former master and teacher Melkor had warned them&' (ut now they had been discovered and even worse, by

their most hated enemy the +warves, who would surely tell all the -even .athers what they had found andeventually this discovery would reach the ear of their creator Aule the Terrible#

This set in motion events which would ultimately cause their eventual annihilation'

Word of their discovery spread 5uickly among both the races %the dwarves and the gnomes& and fearing that Aule

had been searching for them since they escaped dicovery in tumno and thus had sent the -even .athers to huntthem down to destroy them they made war upon the dwarves of the -even Great )ouse, believing that heir onlychance to survive was to act 5uicker than the enemy while they still retained the element of surprise#

The gnomes knew well where the many houses of the enemy lay, for they had avoided them for many years,attempting to hide fom them' 1onversely the dwarves had no idea where the gnomes had built their many secret

cities and *ockdome, their capital and in this they were at a disadvantage when the war began'

!t was vicious and the gnomes showed no mercy or conscious in their attacks against men, women and even thechildren of the enemy %as they had been so thoroughly corrupted by Melkor and feared the enemies wrath&'

ventually Aule became aware of war which now e2isted between the -even .athers of his creation and another

much like the seven' !t was then he first remembered the ighth .ather and reali


15/38

?ife to the +warves

To All,

!t seems that the membership is right in this matter: that it was !luvatar which finally gave to the -even .athersof Aule"s creation life'

-o, it seems, ! will have to find another possible story %or a way to correct my current story& for the creation

of the Gnomes'

Any ideas and/or suggestions you could offer me in this endeaver would be greatly appreciated'

Thanks for your input thus far %9ason, -teve and others&':&

EJ Womble (./0/02)

-teve,

The radiation thing can still work and play into the history %after leaving tumno the gnomes founded manysecret cities deep in the bowls of the earth, perhaps some of them were in or near promenantly radioactive areas $

maybe even their capital *ockdome was built upon a radioctive site#&'

Who really knows %that is what !"m trying to discover, invent and/or create$ a comprehensive history for theGnome race for use by interrested members&'

!"m still open to ideas/suggestions revolving around Gnome history and the race %in general&, so if you have any $

let me know#

Jason 6a&lor (./0/02)

!"m thinking, that keeping creation as the sole providence of !luvatar is pretty important'''the Hth father idea isgoing to be hard to fit in' !t may be better to have Melkor "corrupt" some of the first +warves, ala lves$to$>rcs,

instead' This can still be made fairly tragic and early by having it be maybe the oldest son of one of the -even.athers and his followers that were initial captured and corrupted'

?ife to the +warves

9,Aside from the corruption email sent previously'''you could 0ust note that the histories were in error and thatthere were originally ight .athers brought to life by !luvatar' Melkor pilfers one while sleeping and does hisnasties to him'''and viola'''Gnomes :&' +warves mystical reverence of the number seven has 0ust been a multi$

eon screw up' 3ah'''! like the corruption suggestion better :p,

Steve anni!an (./0/02)

3ice 9'

! think the Gnomes is a really nice idea' !"m not really into the Morgoth thing but that"s really because ! tend totake a pratical approach to Middle$earth' ! like to be able to e2plain stuff without relying too heavily on the gods'?ike you say though it horses for courses really' The most important thing is ! think we all agree that they shoulde2sists %which given heated discussion lately isn"t bad going#&'

!"m well into the C +warven father stuff $ which sort of counts me out of the Hth father theory $ although to behonest ! haven"t looked into with as much depth as obviously you have' C is also my favourite number'

Mie er! (.7/0/02)


16/38

)i 9, D All,

Why not have Morgoth back in the st' Age or before, breed Gnomes in mockery of +warves'(ut there had to be down fall with the e2periment, otherwise he might have used Gnomes instead of orcs'Gnome down falls would be a low birth rate, D worst of all not all Gnomes turned out to be evil' Gnomes were

more like humans in this respect' % .ree Will &

ven though he could influence the Gnomes D make most delight in evil things' There were always some whowere 0ust plane good, D others who were caught up in their own desires' % 3ot good or bad & Morgoth notwanting to create more free peoples opted to use orcs instead' )e didn"t abandon the evil Gnomes, D he taughtthem to hate the .ree 7eoples'Also to persecute any good or neutral Gnomes that were e2posed' As a result any non evil Gnomes who weren"t

slain would try to escape D lived alone or formed small communities as far away from Morgoth D the vilGnomes as they could'

8ate S#am (.7/0/02)

Weren"t the dwarves and e2ception to that rule though %>nly !lluvatar&; They were alive before, but had to be put

to sleep and wait when it was found out;!"m forgetting any of the names and details, 0ust remembering the story line vaguely'

Mie er! (.7/0/02)

(eren't the darves and eception to that rule though !&nly "lluvatar$/ They ere alive before, but had to be

put to sleep and ait hen it as found out/

"'m forgetting any of the names and details, #ust remembering the story line vaguely%

)i all,What ! meant was to have Morgoth take living dwarves D breed into them the perversion he wanted' (ut it didn"twork as well as it did with the orcs'

EJ Womble (.9/0/02)

Mike and All,

!"ve been re$thinking my Gnome history %taking into account what others have suggested& and this is what !"ve

come up with'

!n brief %! don"t want to add in all the details until the story is right&:

The Two Trees are dead, the -ilmarils stolen and Melkor %now Morgoth& has returned to the lands of Middle$arth'

The -even .athers have awakened %! believe right before or right after the arrival of Morgoth in M& andestablish their Great Mansions, among them 3ogrod and (elegost in the (lue Mountains %the red ?uin&'

The +warves in (elegost begin trade with the Grey lves %the -indar& of (eleriand and become friend and allyto lu Thingol, 8ing Greymantle of the lves of (eleriand'

They help Thingol to build Menegroth and crafted for him a stockpile of their best arms and armor'

>rcs and other fell beasts fro the north invaded and attacked the elves of (eleriand, but were beaten back withthe help of the dwarves'

This is the first Morgoth has heard of the e2istance of the -even .athers in the lands of M' )e immediately setsout to capture some to corrupt and pervert to his will and liking and these he will call Gnomes'

)e deceives the Gnomes and corrupts their minds with lies about Aule and the -even .athers'


17/38

>ne lie %which has persisted to this day& is that they %the Gnomes& are the descendants of an ighth .ather whowas re0ected by Aule for his imperfections and denied his birth right which was instead divided among the other -even .athers'

The lies were many and in the end the Gnomes hated and loathed Aule and the -even .athers with all their heart

and soul'

At this time their numbers were few and their secret cities even fewer and so they could not act at once againstall the -even .athers to regain their stolen birth right, so their eyes were turned against one of the seven thatreigned in (elegost whom their Master %Morgoth& loathed the most %at this time for having dared to helped thegery elves in (eleriand&'

They attacked both 3ogrod and (elegost in secrecy and with surprise, entering the Great Mansions throughtunnels and pit they had constructed'

The dwarves suffered great losses and eventually word reached the other Great Mansion who sent them aid%8ha


18/38

The few Gnomes which manage to escape then fled south, travelling deep underground where they hoped thedwarves would never venture, into the nder +eeps'

Jason 6a&lor (.9/0/02)

" alays invisioned Gnome as being .all bad. or evil !like orcs$% The reason he didn't use them more isbecause he didn't have time to breed them in great numbers before the *even 2athers !supposedly$

eterminated all of them%

O9TP'''or, not that he +!+3"T have time to breed them in great numbers, but that they were!31A7A(? of breeding in great numbers' The +warves aren"t all that fertile of a race, this could be atrait in common with the Gnomes that disallowed a prodigous breeding program' >rcs, on the other

hand, bred like rabbits'''or rats :&'

Gabriele $a!lia (.9/0/02)

)i all,

> " alays invisioned Gnome as being .all bad. or evil !like orcs$% The reason he didn't use them more isbecause he didn't have time to breed them in great numbers before the *even 2athers !supposedly$ eterminated

all of them%

> That's also the reason no one ever kne about their eistence ecept the 4arves ho kept the knoledge

.hush, hush. - one of those dark family-type secrets%

Moreover, if Gnomes may be good or neutral they would be 5uite a copy of 7etty +warves' !nstead, they are

creatures of Morgoth, like >rcs, Trolls and +ragons'

> (hat did you think of my idea of hy 1orgoth didn't use Gnomes more% Good Gnomes !This is hy there ere

good 5 bad Gnomes in human folk tales%$

> Also the lo birthrate%

! think the basic problem with +warves is that they are too stubborn' Their resistance to the rule of Morgoth mayhave been one of the causes that made the (lack nemy prefer the >rcs'

EJ Womble (.9/0/02)

Gabriele,

Thank you, you put that 5uite nicely %that"s the way ! always saw them anyway $ on the same level as orcs, trollsand dragons#&'

EJ Womble (.9/0/02)

%Gnomes )istory&

)i All#

9 here' 1oncerning my history on Gnomes, ! think there will eventually be T)* different one"s written'

)istory $ Accounts of the -even .athers:& The myths, legends and first hand accounts which the +warves know and have come to believe@

)istory 4 $ According to the Gnomes:4& The myths, stories and lies told to the Gnomes by Morgoth that they have come to believe as being their truehistory@

and finally

)istory E $ The True -toryE& The true history of how the Gnomes came into being and their relationship to Morgoth and the +warves'


19/38


20/38

3augrim

Gabriele $a!lia (05/01/02)

)i all,

does anyone know the difference between 3augrim %sing' 3augir;& and 3oegyd %sing' 3ogod&; ! think they bothrefer to +warves, but 3augrim is possibly an offense to them' !f anyone can solve my doubts'''


3augrim means "stunted people" and was given to them by the lves %prepominately the -indar&' ! haven"t heardof 3oegyd'

%hris Jennin!s (../01/02)

-ince !"m catching up on my emails, and have my dictionary handy'''(oth labels are -indarin, and both mean stunted folk, but then that is what dwarf means in nglish, so !"mnot sure how insulting they were supposed to be'

3augrim is the common ad0ective naug %stunted, dwarf& with the "racial" plural suffi2 $rim %host&added' 3aug can also be used as a singular for +warf %one of the 3augrim& but usually only in compounds,where the $au$ often becomes $o$' .or e2ample in 3ogrod %3ogoth is singular noun for +warf %meaning basically stunted$one, related to "naug"&, and seems to be the basic -indarin word for a +warf' This has two plurals: 3oegyth %%some& +warves, meaning more than one"3ogoth"& and 3ogothrim %The +warves %as a race&, the +warf$folk&, with the "$rim" suffi2 again'There is also the noun 3aweg %pl' 3eweg;&, but the use of this is unclear'

! suspect the "politically correct" term for a +warf was )adhod , which is simply a "-indarinisation" of the+warves" own name for themselves 8ha


21/38

+warven names

EJ Womble (0/01/02)

To All:

>n several occations ! have been told that names like 8ordmiere and +warkin 0ust don"t sound dwarven anddon"t seem to follow the formula set forth by Tolkien when creating dwarven names'

! agree these names may not be the best names ! could have come up with and that ! could have tried to findnames to use that sounded more traditonal'

)ere"s my 5uestion: after e2hausting all the possible combinations for creating a traditional dwarven name %letssay LLL names $ and that"s being very generous&, what do dwarves start calling each other %let"s say their

population reaches million at its peak $ what do the QQQ,LLL other dwarves call themselves&;

! can"t believe that if ! paged/called out for a Thorin %for e2ample& in an all dwarven tavern %in some dwarvencity $ of course& that one third of the room would flag me down saying !"m Thorin# ! also have a hard time believing they would all be using numbers %like Thorin !!! or Thorin !K& after their names or even a sna


22/38

That"s all fine and dandy for royal branches of dwarven society %and whether or not dwarves have secret namesin 8hu


23/38

They still managed to build an empire with such a few names :$& so it was surely a mess, but not so much' )opeit was clear'''

EJ Womble (.2/01/02)

1ory,

>8, at least ! got some consideration for the idea $ thanks' million is a bit ambitious %! admit $ even for allseven houses combined&, ! was 0ust trying to hammer home a point' :&

-till, ! think if a player were to enter into an area of heavy dwarven population %a dwarven city, fortress, mining

camp, etc'& he/she would be confronted with alot of dwarven idiosyncrasies and beliefs which would not holdtrue under close scrutiny/inspection and or interaction'

nough said, thanks for your response and insight' :&

nders li*t (.2/01/02)

!n regard to the discussion about +warven names:

!n earlier days it seems that the selection of names in uropean cultures was limited' !n classical *ome allwomen of the same family had the same name' 'g' the women of the 9ulius family were all named 9ulia' That"swhy people invented nicknames' !n medieval -weden lots of kings were named rik' >ne of them got the

nickname king rik the ?isping and ?imping $$ no kidding'

!t could certainly be that +warves used nicknames to distinguish between the five chaps named .ili working thesame shift in the pit' We have already nicknames in Tolkien"s te2t, like -tonehelm, >akenshield and +eathless'

liver S,hi, (20/01/02)

)i 9,

the reason why ! ob0ect to names such as "8ordmiere", ")endale", or "Wendale" is because they are not e2plained'This means both that no background for them is given %i'e', in which language they"re supposed to be&, but also because they are not phonetically sound for any of the languages we know of in M$e' Tolkien"s dwarven names

are taken from the lder dda, but this was only because he did this in the ")obbit" and didn"t feel later that hecould take the names back, much as he changed some other things in the ")obbit"' -o he interpreted them asnglish e5uivalents/representations of the Westron translations/versions of dwarven names' !n order for this tohave some verisimilitude, the names had to sound ancient and strange in nglish, so that he as translator came upwith using >ld !celandic' 1onse5uently, all nglish versions of Westron versions of 8hu


24/38

-imon, Tom, etc' (y all accounts, dwarves are even less imaginative than humans when it comes to language andnaming, and it may be assumed that their range was even smaller' Among lves, name duplications apparentlyoccurred very rarely, and neither did they occur among the 3umenorean kings' )owever, among the 8ings of Gondor, 1hieftains of the *angers, and -tewards of Gondor %also the lords of +ol Amroth, ! believe&, you findname repetitions' The closer a people was to the elves and ndying ?ands, the less repetitions seem to have

occurred' An e2ception are the hobbit genealogical tables, where Tolkien"s imagination ran riot and didn"t

produce any repetitions e2cept for the deliberate ones of -am"s children'-till, you can make many different dwarven names based on the e2isting templates#


>liver,

As usual you have a way of making things more complicated than they have to be'''

!n Appendi2 . of *eturn of the 8ing there is a brief section devoted to the topic of +warves $ society, namesand language'

!n it they e2plain, and ! 5uote: (ut in the Third Age close friendship still was found in many places between

Men and +warves@ and it was according to the nature of the +warves that, travellng and labouring and tradingabout the lands, as they did after the destruction of their ancient mansions, they should use the languages of menamong whom they dwelt'

.urthermore: Gimili"s own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of 3orthern %Manish& origin' Their own secret and "inner" names, the +warves have never revealed to any one of alien race' 3ot even on their tombsdo they inscribe them'

That being said, ! defend the use of the names of +warkin, )endale and Wendale for my +warves in theadventure on the basis that they are among several Manish names which were prominantly used by +warves in

and around the region of the red ?uin and Kales below (elegost as influenced by the languages being spoken by men in this region at the close of the EA and during the beginning of the 6A'

As for your arguement on the name 8ordmiere, well !"m still looking into that %but as he is known as8ordmiere -tonecutter $ an obvious Manish adaptation $ perhaps with the passing of time, this name wasadopted by the +warves of this region inorder to tell the tale to other races without revealing 8ordmiere"s true

secret name U that sounds like a safe arguement&'

=ou need to stop being so anal about these things %no offense&' !"m sure there is a logical e2planation for whythings are as they are%especially when presented by a fellow GM $ as far as adventure info' goes&' !f ! read, in amodule for instance, that there is a +warf named 8ordmiere who e2isted during the A, ! accept it as being fact'! might think it odd and may not be e2actly sure how this came to be, but none the less, ! accept it %even if no

detailed e2planation is given& and move on' !n most cases when you purchase a published adventure module,there is no one whom you can contact to e2plain or give greater detail to sub0ect matter contained in the saidmodule $ you 0ust accept the facts presented at face value for what they are and move on %if later there is acorrection or alteration to the facts, you simply take mental note of it and include the changes in future use of

that module&'

uestioning every little 5uirk in some one"s work is not a very productive use of your time %as a GM or 7layer in the real world of store bought modules we are not given this lu2ury $ the info' contained in the module iswhat it is, like it or not %there"s no one you can complain about it to&''' and if you don"t like it, change it $ that"swhat alot of GMs do&'

!n an official capacity you might consider yourself to be a supervisor of work submitted by members $ this

would be fine if this were a real 0ob and my livelyhood in this business were at stake, but this is 0ust a fan$module group open for the introduction of new works and ideas for M and not a 0ob' =ou need to chill$outand be more accepting of new materials/ideas and ways of thinking/seeing things that are submitted here''' andif you don"t like something %! personally submitted&, 0ust change it %you have my permission $ not that you ever needed it&, since your vision and finale say$so seem to be the only opinion you think matters anyone anyway

%boss&'


25/38

=our way may not always be the best way and you may not always have all the answers %no matter how hardyou try to cover all your bases&''' something to consider'

Gabriele $a!lia (2./01/02)

)i 9,

> That being said, " defend the use of the names of 4arkin, )endale and > (endale for my 4arves in the

adventure on the basis that they are among > several 1anish names hich ere prominantly used by 4arves

in and around the region of the Ered 0uin and 6ales belo 7elegost as > influenced by the languages being

spoken by men in this region at the > close of the 8A and during the beginning of the 9A%

Well, this alternative e2planation works, but ! prefer the other''' few and unimaginative, traditional names for

+warves' As nearly all +wraves in Tolkien"s works have similar names, you can suppose they are all the same,and that it is not by chance that Thorin"s company had such ridiculous names' They would sound less stupid if you think that they were traditional and there wasn"t much choice in naming +warves' This sounds moreTolkienish, but it"s 0ust M)>'

> :ou need to stop being so .anal. about these things !no offense$% "'m > sure there is a logical eplanation for hy things are as they are !especially hen presented by a fello G1 - as far as adventure info% goes$% "f " read,

in a module for instance, that there is a 4arf named ordmiere ho eisted during the ;A, " accept it as being

fact% " might think it odd and may not be eactly sure ho this came to be, but none the less, " accept it !even if

no detailed eplanation is given$ and move on% "n most cases hen you purchase a published adventure module,

there is no one hom you can contact to eplain or give greater detail to sub#ect matter contained in the said

module - you #ust accept the facts presented at .face value. for hat they are and move on !if later there is a

correction or alteration to the facts, you simply take mental note of it and include the changes in future use of

that module$%

!f you accept what people writes in modules, there is no more room for discussion' Moreover, it was you who

invited comments' ! think >liver was polite in spending time to read your adventure' Then, if you don"t agreewith him, 0ust say it and do what you want %after all, the adventure was written by you&, but it"s not correct to ask

his opinion and then ask him to shut up'

7ersonally, ! liked the discussion about +warven names'

Jason 6a&lor (22/01/02)

At least to the e2tent of T) and ?ot*, all of the +warves were from +urin"s Tribe %if ! remember correctly&'''so itwould make some sense that all their names had a similiar source since they shared both family and geography'The only other +warf names ! can remember are Mim and 8him'''! don"t know if they are lda dda type namesas well'''but they sound more e2otic :&'


Gabriele,

! wasn"t e2actly asking/telling >liver to shut up as you so politely phrased it, ! simply don"t agree, as you statedin your response, with his point of view on dwarven names' The fact that >liver keeps bringing up the nameissue in nearly every correspondence to my adventure addressed to me, asking/telling me ! need to

e2plain/defend my introduction/use of what he deems non traditional dwarven names is 0ust not right''' toin5uire as to why, might be more polite''' and to then accept whatever name%s& !, the writer, choose/decide to use'

! would never tell another writer that his choice of names will ruin your story %not an e2act 5uote, but closeenough&' !f ! had totally left out the names of characters in my adventure and instead left it up to individual GMsto choose/decide what names they would like to use, would not change the story/adventure $ a good

story/adventure/plot is still good reguardless of trivialities $ like names'


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! have told >liver %and all& that they are welcome to take or change any portion of my adventure to suit their ownneeds/use $ it 0ust seems important to >liver that he change my mind about the use of names in M %a pet peeveof his, ! suppose&, but this is not going to happen''' he has, however, my permission to change anything he doesnot particularly like about my adventure to better fit into his stereotypical idea of M %perpetuating thisstereotype might be fine for advetures based in the 4A and EA where it is important not to alter the ideas/works

of Tolkien, but ! play during the 6A, a time of dynamic change in M and if part of that change is that dwarves

during this time have decided to e2pand their name base to include a whole new venue of dwarven names, so beit $ this has happened in many other cultures, that is why names are so varied in so many places within differentcultures, so why not for the dwarves;&'

All along ! have informed/told everyone why it is that ! choose only to set my aventures and play during the 6A $

as not to tamper with the ideas/works of Tolkien which are fact %not presumptions or assumptions $ as is thecase for any ideas/works which are developed in the 6A&' ! am open to critism from all and welcome any debatewhich generates new ideas and ways of preceiving/thinking about M from a game point of view $ my ideasare based on use for M*7, not implied as e2panded history on Tolkiens work''' many do not see a difference between the written work and the game, however ! do' There are creatures, magic, ideas, etc' that !can seeworking 5uite well in a M*7 campaign, but would be very 5uestionable as suggested writing material to be

included in the works of Tolkien'

Again, ! am a GM, first and foremost, the works ! submit are done solely to give other GMs fresh ideas and newways of looking/thinking about campaigns and campaigning in M $ take it or leave it, the choice is up to eachof you''' my only hope is that in some meager way ! might contribute to both GMs and players en0oying/havingmore fun running and playing M*7'

-ieter $;m+asser (22/01/02)

)ello all,

!"ve spend last night trying to get up to date, the +warven 3ames +iscussion was very interesting' .irst of all,

Mim and 8him are 7etty +warven %3oegyth 3ibin& names, probably not the best choice to bring in'

(ut ! think the discussion is 5uite fruitless, because in the end it is a matter of gaming style' !n this 5uestion there

can"t be a worse or better, it"s 0ust one way or the other' >ne prefers detail and depth %in names, descriptions, being as Tolkienish as possible, etc'& others are very campaign oriented %comple2 story, rich background, political involvement of the players& and there are others who are 0ust in for smashing some orc$skulls :$&

Most will fall somewhere in$between'''

veryone develops his/her own style with time, it"s a matter of gaming e2perience, personel preferences andmany more' !t is very difficult to change, and what for; And although there are some points which seem strangeto me in 9"s adventure it has inspired my imagination, thank you for that and go on

liver S,hi, (22/01/02)

OWarning: This is e2tremely long, so please only read if you"re really interested in the sub0ect of names and in the

general issue of whether we should comment on each other"s work here'P

9,

> As usual you have a ay of making things more complicated than they have to be%%%

!"m afraid not' =ou make them simpler than they are %but see below& by ignoring the other sources' ?etter J %EAugust QEC&, ?etters p' 4, about the ")obbit":

"!n any case$$e2cept for the runes %Anglo$-a2on& and the dwarf$names %!celandic&, neither used with anti5uarianaccuracy, and both regretfully substituted to avoid abstruseness for the genuine alphabets and names of themythology into which Mr (aggins intrudes$$!"m afraid my professional knowledge is not directly used'"


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)ad Tolkien used the dwarf$names as used by them among the 3orthmen, there would have been no need for asubstitution' The dwarf$names as used in the ) are therefore not names used in Middle$earth, either as "open"names or as "secret" names' They are editorial substitutions to make the reading easier for the nglish edition'

.urther, ?etter 4J %published in the >bserver 4L .ebruary QEH&, ?etters p' E:

"The dwarves are not 5uite the dwarfs of better known lore' They have been given -candinavian names, it is true@ but that is an editorial concession' Too many names in the tongues proper to the period might have beenalarming'"

Therefore, the >ld !celandic from which the dwarf$names are drawn is not a tongue proper to the period'

Thirdly, ?etter 66 %4J April QJ6&, ?etters p' CJ:

"The language of +ale and the ?ong ?ake would, if it appeared, be represented as more or less -candinavian incharacter@ but it is only represented by a few names, especially those of the +warves that came from that region'These are all >ld 3orse +warf$names'"

Again, the dwarf$names that appear in the ")obbit" are ">ld 3orse +warf$names"' As >ld 3orse was not a tongue

proper to the period, the "real" tongues of the period would have been "more or less -candinavian"' !n the event, inorder to simplify, as he did not use the languages proper, only names, Tolkien did not invent names "properly" inthose tongues, though he might have done had he invented the tongue, as well' 3ames for Tolkien are alwaysmeaningful, and in order to ensure their belonging to a certain language, their meaning has to be anchored in that

language' As the languages in 5uestion had not been invented %! don"t know whether there is anything in the philological writings currently being published in Kinyar Tengwar, though&, no names could be formed in them' 3or had the opposite process, by which, for e2ample, the elvish languages sprang from the name "arendel",taken place' !f Tolkien had invented any names in new languages, he would inevitably have sought to e2plainthem and thereby would have invented bits of these languages'

.inally, ?etter 4QC %draft, not sent, August QFC&, ?etters p' EH4:

"As stated in the Appendices the "outer" public names of the northern +warves were derived from the language of

men in the far north not from that variety represented by A'-' OAnglo$-a2onP, and in conse5uence are given-candinavian shape, as rough e5uivalents of the kinship and divergence of the contemporary dialects'"

Again, the "-candinavian shape" is only a rough e5uivalence to the names as they were in "the contemporarydialects"' This is 0ust to show that ! don"t complicate things' The process of "e2ternal" vs' "internal" invention inTolkien"s work holds a very great fascination for me, and especially so with names' !n order to get them right,i'e', consistent and believable, one had better observe what he has to say on the sub0ect'!"m assuming that you"re 5uoting the following passage %though you don"t say so& because in my previous mail !talked throughout of dwarves having Westron names' That"s a clear mistake on my part' 3aturally, some dwarves

would have had Westron names they went by, but others would have northern names' -o in fact, ! didn"t makethings complicated, but on the contrary simplified too much' 3onetheless, the following passage likewise, and ina different way, states only a part of the complete case:

> "n it they eplain, and " n Gimli"s name:

I .urthermore: Gimili"s own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of 3orthern %Manish& origin'

Their own secret and "inner" names, the +warves have never revealed to any one of alien race' 3ot even on their tombs do they inscribe them'

!n the light of the above, this %not very clear& passage omits the crucial distinction %still present in Tolkien"s mindin QFC, as we have seen, and so post$Appendices& that at least the names of Gimli"s kin, as contained in ) and

?ot*, are not authentic names out of M$e, but substitutions' "Gimli", for all ! know, may well be an e2ception@ !haven"t checked the KVlusp passage for whether it occurs in it' (y the time of the ?ot* and the dwarvish


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genealogical table, Tolkien may well have taken to inventing variations on the KVlusp names to increase thesif course, many 5uestions players ask ask for information which can"t be given at that moment@ but when it can, the GM must be prepared' (y not providing all the necessaryinformation, you are letting the GM down' -ome things, like the name 8ordmiere, are not self$e2planatory'

> uestioning every little .


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wider public means that one accept the 0udgement of others to some e2tent' =ou still seem to take offence that ! provide mine' !s it because you"re the only one to whom !"m currently responding in such detail; That"s not because !"m singling you out, but because you"re the only one currently posting %bar general discussion& on thearea of M$e to which ! limit my interest, namely, the lands described by Tolkien' lsewhere, it"s not 5uite"anything goes", but a lot closer to that' ! would only encourage you to think more about some sort of

publication, even if it remains within this list' *ight now, you still add all sorts of insecure caveats %your basic

attitude seems to be "like it or lump it or change it in private"& to what you post that betray your uncertainty about publicity of your writing' (elieve me, with good layouts that (elegost thing can be a cracking adventure#As for the sub0ect of names, you may be aware that for Tolkien names were by far one of the most importantaspects of his writing' )e agonised over them' We must aspire to good standards on this e2tremely important point if we"re working on M$e' ! would argue that this should also be the case with other worlds, but they don"t

tend to have the resource of a philological genius like Tolkien, and tend to be e2tremely sloppy about names'1ompare ?etters p' ECJ, where Tolkien criticises and repudiates the notion falsely attributed to him that: "Whenyou invent a language, you more or less catch it out of the air' =ou say boo$hoo and it means something'" 3amesare not a little 5uirk when you"re writing about M$e'

> "n an .official. capacity you might consider yourself to be a .supervisor. of ork submitted by members - this

ould be fine if this ere a .real. #ob and my livelyhood in this .business. ere at stake, but this is #ust a fan-

module group open for the introduction of ne orks and ideas for 1E and not a #ob% :ou need to .chill-out.

and be more accepting of .ne. materials?ideas and ays of thinking?seeing things that are submitted here%%%and if you don't like something !" personally submitted$, #ust change it !you have my permission - not that you

ever needed it$, since your .vision. and finale .say-so. seem to be the only opinion you think matters anyone

anyay !boss$%

! don"t understand where you"re coming from here at all' +on"t ! give arguments every time ! give my opinion;+o you think that any arguments are generally unpersuasive; =ou again distort my meaning completely whenyou say that ! don"t value the opinions of others, and that is what ! consider very offensive here' With thee2ception of the points ! raised, ! have commended the entire rest of your work on (elegost' This suffices as acounter$e2ample, although ! could mention others'

7lease understand that ! consider this list to fulfil a useful function in that we can all be each others" editors'!"m not doing anything that ! think can"t be done by everyone else here' !"m not "supervising" anyone' The publicworld does not stop at 0obs$$we are still doing work here' That it happens to be unpaid is entirely coincidental'

!t is possible to learn from others, you know$$0ust now ! made the mistake of leaving aside the fact thatdwarves in the ) were mainly around northern languages, etc', which you pointed out to me' (elieve it or not,this reminded me of something !"d simply forgotten' -o it works both ways' >8; 7lease stop flaming me'

> :our ay may not alays be the .best. ay and you may not alays have all the ansers !no matter ho hard

you try to cover all your bases$%%% something to consider%

!t is better to have a better answer than a worse one' A better answer is distinguished from a worse one by beingsupported by better arguments' -o what if it is sub0ective; That doesn"t mean it"s only relative to the one

giving it' =ou can still often tell which is better$founded' -ub0ective answers can be communicated, agreed or disagreed on, and e2panded or reduced further' 7lease, 9: The kind of debate !"m interested in is not one inwhich my opinion prevails' Together, we can find the best answer' )ow often do ! have to stress the value of collaboration before you cease misunderstanding and misrepresenting me; %! am only referring to your general

remarks here, not to the entirely correct point about Westron etc' that ! perceive you to be making'&


>liver,

-orry for the misunderstandings and for offending you thus, ! appreciate the time you take to commentconstructively about my e$mails %though ! don"t always agree with your point of view or see eye$to$eye on many

issues of discussion, there is alot of new information revealed to me for consideration&'+on"t shut$up as you so politely put it %! don"t recall ever saying these words''' perhaps chill$out or take iteasy''' something along these lines& :& ! have always been opened to suggestions, critisms, open discussions anddebates $ you, and others, make me think alot %mostly on defending my work and comments withreasonable/rational responses& U and that"s a good thing %believe it or not&' ! don"t mean to be offensive, but like

others ! do take pride in my work and sometimes get more emotional in arguements than one should $ pleaseforgive and try to over look such outbursts''' there has never been a time ! intentionally tried to attack/offend/hurt


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another individual on comments directed toward me %!"m more sarcastic than anything else $ a bad habbit andoften times offensive %sorry& $ it"s 0ust venting frustration at others e2pense %again sorry&&'

3ow on to other matters of debate:

-ince M is not our arth, how can the languages of >ld 3orse or -candinavian even e2ist; What ! am

suggesting is that these languages may have been used as templates for languages in M, but since no twolanguages will ever be e2actly the same, there is room for add$ons, alterations and new added words andinterpetations to the M e5uivilant to these languages or is Tolkien 0ust simply suggesting that Westron is-candinavian %which is not very original&'

(y the way, ! always thought the spoken language of Westron %the common tongue of M& to be thee5uivilant of nglish in our world %from a game/gamers point of view $ not a literary point of view& and not-candinavian %as was suggesed or did ! misinterpret something&; This would account for my choice of dwarvennames seeming so nglish U the Westron in M*7 was interpretted by me to be nglish %or the e5uivilant&'

=ou say dwarven name were chosen to be meaningful, give some e2amples $ e2plain this to me $ what

meaning %if any& can you give me for several dwarf names $ pick any of your choosing to e2plain better this point to me'

!f Tolkien wants to e2plain away his choices for dwarven names used in the )obbit as easy for nglishtranslation this is a good enough e2planation for you''' >8 and acceptable, but ! have to go to great lengths anddetail to e2plain and defend my use of names; This is not right'

Also, it is >8 for Tolkien to increase the dwarven name pool, but not others %yes, ! am aware it is his world, but this arguement holds fast to the e2anded works the group and many others have done to his world $ why isit >8 for some to e2pand on Tolkien"s ideas and not others; >8 to e2pand certain areas of knowledge and tabooto e2pand others; Who make these choices;& ! don"t think e2panding the dwarven name pool in the 6A with morenglish sounding names %for use in M*7 only& would be pushing the envelope too far'

*emember, all my works are based in the 6A''' ! would think this would grant me a little more creative leniencysince most events in the 6A are speculatory and are not fact based as in earler ages'

As far as being published''' ! don"t much care %at the moment&' ! do some fantasy writing on the side and perhapsone day %in my retirement& ! might actually find the time to finish writing my trilogy ! started perhaps as far back

as F years ago about a half$troll named *omac who is trying to save his people %the Trolls& from becomingsecond class citi


31/38

)i 9,

!"m glad you want to change the names' ! suppose the phonetic problem with "+warkin" is that it appears to be arule in +warven names not to have more than two separate double consonants in a name' )ere are some samplenames ! made up on the spot@ perhaps you like some of them$$(oi, 3ari, Thalin, Groi, ?ari, (ilur, Thili, .ari,

?oi, etc' Make your own# =ou"ll easily get a feel for the names if you study the basic patterns' As we don"t know

%anyone with better knowledge of >ld !celandic out there than me;& whether the lder dda names aremeaningful, this method of making up names seems possible' ! think it"s a good idea to make up similar nameswith different initial sounds for the father$son combination of )endale and Wendale'


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%reative Geni$s (and Gnomes in #arti,$lar)


To All

>ne thing that has annoyed me intensely about these discussion board is the constant repetoire by some whoseem to have nothing better to do than arragontly assume that they have for some reason the e2clusive rightsfrom 1hristopher Tolkien to correct any statement made by others regardless of whether they are right or wrong'! firstly refer to our friends 9 wonderful tale of the Gnomes' A story that had a nice tale which with a minor tinker or two could be wonderfully intorduced' 3e2t we seem to have sparked an argument among the so called

%and self proclaimed may ! add& e2perts who seem to think that we have the whole thing wrong and in fact 9"stale of Gnomes is in fact a tale of the 7etty +warves# )ow A**>GA3T can some people really assume to be;-ince it"s 9"s tale and has no reference to A3= of the 7etty +warven tales %of which there are few and their origins have 3>T)!3G to do with -auron teaching +warves how to use 1elebur and twisting them& then whohas the right to tell )!M that his Gnomes aren"t in fact Gnomes but are 7etty +warves; -hall we tell him how towrite his campaign as well;

3ot content with this but then some people start to insult him with saying that there was C +warvin .athers andnot H' Well assuming that 9 hasn"t been living on the moon for the past 4J years or so !"m sure that he"s perfectly

aware of this fact' ! took it to be a wonderful tale in +warvin folklore which 1>?+ have had it"s origins as asmall +warven tribe e2posed to the long term effects of 1elebur %or some other radio active substance& $ but itdidn"t really matter as that"s the wonderful thing about legends $ the truth doesn"t have to be known for sure'We should all take a step back and get off of our high horses and respect things that other GM"s do' ! am frankly

appauled at the way some people have ripped into others on these discussion boards' They should be to discusstopics not to try and outdo each other with our views or knowledge on how Middle arth should be'Are we not trying to create something wonderful here; Then lets encourage a bit of creative thinking and give plaudits where it"s deserved#-teve

%or& '$shton (3./05/02)

%1reative Genius %and Gnomes in particular&&

7erhaps we all need to step bakc for a moment' ! didn"t think anyone was particularly harsh with 9 on the issueof the Gnomes' ! happen to think it was an intriguing way to add some +warvish folklore to the mi2, but as far as! recall there was no nastiness on either side' -ome people simply thought to e5uate the Gnomes with the 7etty

+warves, in part %! assume& because the two peoples seem very similar'

-teve, it"s always far more difficult to give plaudits where they"re due as a group''' because we all see plauditsdifferently and in different places' !f someone doesn"t like an idea for whatever reason, they should be under nocompulsion to praise it regardless'

!, for e2ample, wasn"t offended when someone %>liver, maybe;& criti5ued by Arthur$6th Age campaign' =oucan"t have a discussion without disagreements, unless we"re all 0ust going to praise one another all the time'

When ! have critici


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)i, -teve, please e2cuse me for the tone ! used with you last e$mail' !t was a 0oke, and ! didn"t thought that you might beoffended %even after my genuine appreciation about your idea about 1elebur&' -o, ! don"t mean to offend any of you, ! respect all who contribute to our work' >nly, ! don"t think that cold formality has to be used every time' 3e2t time ! will pay more attention on how ! write things %anyway ! see you didn"t lose your 5uoting habits&

-ince 9 came out with an adventure with 7etty +warves, taking elements here and there from several !1

modules, ! assumed %wrongly, indeed&, that he was talking about 7etty +warves, simply calling them Gnomes %infact, i don"t think they call themselves petty@ and ! can"t see differences between the two rac

Documents

Gnomes in Middle Earth