TRANSCRIPTINTERVIEWEE:JohnKargesINTERVIEWER:DavidToddDATE:June19,2021LOCATION:SanAntonio,Texas,byphoneTRANSCRIBER:Trint,DavidToddSOURCEMEDIA:MP3audiofileREEL:4059FILE:LeonSpringsPupfish_Karges_John_SanAntonioTX_19June2021_Reel4059_NoiseFiltered&SignalAdjusted.mp3DavidTodd[00:00:01]Well,wearesettingoutondoinganinterviewtodayandwithyourapproval,Mr.Karges,weplanonrecordingthisinterviewforresearchandeducationalworkonbehalfoftheConservationHistoryAssociationofTexas,andforabookandawebsiteforTexasA&MUniversityPress,andfinally,forpreservationandcatalogingatanarchiveattheBriscoeCenterforAmericanHistoryattheUniversityofTexasatAustin.Thatisourplan.Andofcourse,youwouldhaveownershiptothisrecordingaswell.Andanyuseyou'dliketomakeofit,feelwelcometoit.DavidTodd[00:00:48]Ijustwantedtomakesureyouunderstoodthatandthatitwasagreeabletoyou.JohnKarges[00:00:52]Yeah,Iamtotallyagreeabletoit.AndIamhonoredandgladtobepartofitanddelightedtobeparticipating.DavidTodd[00:01:00]Well,thankyou.DavidTodd[00:01:01]OK,well,let's,let'sgetstartedbyjustdescribingthedateandtimeandplaceandsoon.ItisJune19th,2021,about2:30intheafternoon.MynameisDavidTodd.Iamrepresentingthisnonprofitgroup,theConservationHistoryAssociationofTexas.I'mlocatedinAustinandwearereallyfortunatetobeconductinganinterviewwithJohnKarges,aconservationbiologistwho,amongotherthings,workedfortheNatureConservancyofTexasfor30yearswithmuchofthattimespentinWestTexas.Andduringhiscareer,heworkedtomanagetherareLeonSpringspupfish,whichoccursattheDiamondYSpringandDraw,onaNatureConservancysanctuarythere.AndIhopethatwillbeabletotalkalittlebitabouthislifeandcareerand,andtakeacloselookatsomeoftheworkthathedidwiththepupfishandthehabitatthatsupportsthat,thatfish.HeiscurrentlyinSanAntonioandthereforethisinterviewisbeingdoneremotely.JohnKarges[00:02:23]So,John,Iusuallystarttheseinterviewswithjustachronologicallyappropriatequestion.Westartbyaskingyouaboutyourchildhoodandiftheremighthavebeenanypeopleorexperiences,eventsthatwereabiginfluenceinyourinterestinworkingwithanimals,andlands,anddesertfishinWestTexasinparticular?JohnKarges[00:02:47]Well,Ican,Icantrytostreamlinethatandthefactthat,thatallofmymemoriedlife,Ihavebeeninterestedinnature,andnaturalhistory,thebiologyandspeciesofvertebratesprimarily.Butoveracareerinconservation,ofcourse,Ihadtobealotmoreholistic,alotbroaderaboutthattolookatsystemsandhabitatsandconservationandnaturalcommunities.

JohnKarges[00:03:14]Butitstartedoutinmyyouth,Ithink,withWaltDisney,JacquesCousteau.IgrewupinFortWorthandtherewasaseries:mymomwasveryactiveintheFortWorthAudubonSociety,andtherewasaseriescalledtheAudubonLectureSeries,wherelecturerswouldvisittownonaschedule,fourorfivetimes,differentpresenterseachyear,andtheywouldhaveavideoorafilmthattheywouldnarrateinperson.Thefilmwasvirtuallysilent.AndsotheAudubonNatureSeriesoffilmswasveryinfluential.ButIspenttimeintheFortWorthZoo,attheFortWorthMuseumofScienceandHistorysolongagothatitwasactuallytheFortWorthChildren'sMuseumatthetime.AndIwasinvolvedwithMuseumScienceClub.JohnKarges[00:04:00]Butprobablymostinfluentialandseminal,besidesthefamilyoutingsandthefamilyencouragementwithparticipationinnatureand,andfosteringcuriosity,wasmyparticipationinastudentnaturalistgroupintheverynewFortWorthNatureCenter,backwhenitwascalledGreerIslandNatureCenter.Establishedinthemid'60s,theyjusthadtheirfiftiethanniversarynottoolongago,andIwasinthefirststudentnaturalistgroup.MymomwouldtakemeoutonSaturdaysandwewouldparticipatewiththenaturalistinallkindsoflearningactivities,whetheritwassurveyingformammalsonthenaturecenteroronprivateranchlandwith,withlittlelivetrapswherewecapturedthemice.Wewouldlookatthem,wewoulddeterminethespeciesandmaybethe,thegenderofthosemice.Andsoalotofhands-onexperiencewithmammals,withreptiles.JohnKarges[00:04:54]AndthenIwasalsoveryinfluencedbytaggingalongwithmymomonjustFortWorthAudubonSocietybirdingtripsuptoHagermanNationalWildlifeRefugeontheRedRiver,andLakeTexoma,orouttovariousmembers'privateranches,orjusttheparksintheFortWortharea.Soallofthesewereveryinfluential.JohnKarges[00:05:13]Andthenfamilyvacations,particularlytothewesternUnitedStates,fromMontanatoArizona-many,manyexperiencesofthat,thatyouthIrecallwithnature,likesittingonthebankofatroutstreamwithmygranddadashewasinstructingmeonhowtofishfortroutandhavingabadgerrunacross,downthestream,ontheoppositebank.Didn'tinterferewithus.Wedidn'tinterferewithit.Butjustseeingthisbigwoolycaterpillarofabadgerrundownthebankside,allthesekindofseminalorinfluentialmemoriesinmyyouththat,thatledmetopronounce,Ithinkinthirdgrade,thatIwasgoingtobeabiologistandI'vebeenanaturalisteversince.DavidTodd[00:05:57]Wow.Lotsofrichexperiencesthere.Youknow,inthewayyoudescribedit,itsoundslikeyourmotherwasaparticularlyactiveandinfluentialpersoninyourlifeforthissortofconservationbentthatyou'vehad.Isthatfairtosay?JohnKarges[00:06:20]Yeah,shewas.Shewas,sheisanaturalistinherownright.Allself-taught.SheneverhadsciencesincollegeandwasanEnglishliteratureandlibraryscientistbyherprofessionandtrade.Butshewasalwaysinterestedinnatureandbecauseofher,herparticipationinFortWorthAudubonSocietythroughvariousofficers,allthewayuptobeingapresidentofit,shewasvery,veryinfluential.Andinherownright,hasturnedouttobeanextraordinaryamateurlepidopterist.She'swrittenabookonVladimirNabokovandhisbutterfliesthatheusedinhisliteratureandhasgivenpresentationsallovertheMetroplex.Sowhenpeopleaskmewhatabutterflyis,Isaythey'reaskingthewrongKarges.DavidTodd[00:07:08]Well,thatisgreat.Well,itsoundslikeyouhadapowerful,ifinformal,education,justasachildwithyourmotherandgrandfatherandothers.

DavidTodd[00:07:21]Maybeyoucantalkalittlebitaboutthemoreformaleducationyougot.Iunderstandthatyou,youwenttoTexasA&MinKingsvilleandgotaBachelorofSciencethere,andthentookyourMasterofScienceinbiologyfromtheUniversityofTexasatArlington.JohnKarges[00:07:39]That'scorrect.Idid,actually,whenIstartedcollege,ItookmyfreshmanyearatTCUbecausemymom'saffiliationwithTCU.ButIknewIwantedtogotoastateschoolwheretherewaslotsofaccesstonaturalareas.AndalsobecauseI'mafisherman,IchoseTexasA&I,whichisinKingsville,closetoBaffinBayandclosetotheMexicoborder.SoIchosetheUniversitybecauseIcouldgetmyfishingfixthere.IcouldgotobegintolearnaboutbirdsinMexicowithtripstoMexico.AndIgotaneducationinspiteofitandattendedA&Iandgotmy,mybachelor'sinbiology,focusingnotsomuchonthelabsciencesorthe,thepre-medicalarena,buttrulythevertebrateandotherologies-mammalogy,herpetology,ornithology,ichthyologyandentomology-youknow,allthe,allofthefieldcoursesIcouldgrabonto.JohnKarges[00:08:36]AndIalsocameintoitwithquiteabitofbackgroundbecauseofmyyouthandbecauseIjustdevouredfieldguidesandspentprobablyasmuchtimememorizingscientificnamesorlearningthem,actuallynotjustmemorizing,butlearningthescientificnamesofmanyofourTexasorganismsandlookingatfieldguidesandsaying,"Iwanttoseethatanimalsomedayinthewild."Andthat'ssomethingI'veactuallybeenveryfortunatetodoovertime,isseealotofthecrittersIknewfromtheliterature,Iknewfrompicturesandbooksandgettingtoworkwiththem.JohnKarges[00:09:07]AndthenwhenIfinishedmybachelor'sdegreeatTexasA&I,IactuallyItookayearofffrom,fromthecurriculumofanundergraduatetoworkonaprojectonthecoastwiththeU.S.ArmyCorpsofEngineersfundingtostudythenestingofwater,colonialwaterbirdsonislandsintheLagunaMadre-theislandsthathavebeenmadebythedredgingoftheLagunaMadrefortheIntracoastalWaterway.AndsoItookayearofftodothis,toparticipateasoneofthefieldtechniciansinthisstudyofthe,ofthebirduseoftheseislands,andthenfinishedupmyundergraduatethefollowingyearwithmysenioryear.JohnKarges[00:09:46]Andthenfromthere,IhadhaveknownforallalongthatIwantedtogoonforagraduatedegree.SoIwenttoUniversityofTexasatArlingtonformyMaster's.DavidTodd[00:09:57]Youknow,onethingthat,thatsortofcaughtmyattentionwhenyouweredescribingtheappealtogoingtoTexasA&I,Imean,despitethefineeducationyougotthere,butitsoundslikeyounotonlyhaveakindofacademiccuriosityaboutwildlife,butthatyoualsoenjoyfishingandjustbeingoutdoors.Isthatfairtosay?JohnKarges[00:10:23]Oh,absolutely.Matteroffact,they'reinextricablyintertwinedbecausewhenIfish,I'mapredator.AndIwanttothinklikethreethings.Iwanttothinklikesomethingafishmightwanttocatchandeat.SoIthrowlures.Iwanttothinklikethefish,becauseIwanttothinkofwhatahungryfishmightchasedownandeat.AndthenIthinklikeagreatblueheronoranosprey.Whatwouldittaketomakethatpredatoryfishsusceptible?AndsoIfishforpredatoryfishwithlures,whichmakesmeanaturalistbecauseI'mincorporatingthiscumulativesetofexperiencestobeabetterfisherman,eventhoughmostofthefishIcatch,Itrytoharmlesslyreleaseandpamperwhilethey'reinmy,myhands,ormycare,and,andthenreleasethem.SoIgettobeanaturalistwhenI'musuallywadefishingontheTexascoast.AndIhaveseensomeextraordinarythings,likewatchingvariousporpoise

behaviorsand,andstingraysandcownoseraysthatIencounterwhenI'mwading.Andsoit's,it'sjustallthekindofcumulativemeasanaturalistandangler.DavidTodd[00:11:30]That'sthat'sgreat.Gosh,it'sfunwhen,whenyourideaoffunandyourcareerintersect.DavidTodd[00:11:41]Youknow,Ithinkthat,inreadingalittlebitaboutyou,beforewemanagedtodothisinterview,youmentionedthatyou,whileyou'reatUT-Arlington,youstudiedwithafamousherpetologist,WilliamPyburn.AndIwashopingthatyoucouldtalkabouthowyourintersectionwithhim,aswellasanyother,youknow,fellowstudentsorprofessorswhileyouwereinyourformaltraining.JohnKarges[00:12:12]Well,there'stwopeopleIwouldliketomention.One,eventhoughitwaspriortoDr.PyburnatUT-A,andthatwasDr.AllanChaney,whowasmyvertebratebiologymentorasanundergraduate.Andasanundergraduate,youdon'thaveamajorprofessor.ButIbefriendedDr.Chaney,whowas,wasanextraordinaryteacher,amoderatelygoodresearcher(hedidn'tpublishalotbecausehewasatasmalluniversitywherehewasteachingheavyclassloads).ButheputtogetheranumberofMaster'sstudentsovertheyears.Andsohedidsponsoralotofresearch.Hehadquiteafewpublications.ButA&Iatthattimewas,wasverymuchateaching-heavyinstitutionandcertainlyencouragingfacultyresearch.Soashewoulddohisresearch,heactuallywouldhavealotofstudentsworkingonit.AndwhenIwaslookingatmyMaster'sprogram,hesaid,IwouldloveyoutostayatA&I.Wewerevery,veryclose.Imean,Ijust,justcherishedmytimewiththismanasaasamentorandinstructorandjustaninfluentialfigureinmylife.Buthesaid,I'dloveyoutostayatA&IforyourMaster's,butyou'vetakenjustabouteverythingthisuniversityhastooffer.Andyouneedtogotoabiggerplace,broadenyourhorizons,getanotherperspectivefromamajorsupervisor.JohnKarges[00:13:29]Andatthetime,IknewthattheUniversityofTexasatArlingtonwas,wasburgeoningasaherpetologicalcenter.I'dknownofDr.WilliamPyburn,whowasatUT-A.HewasactuallyastudentofFrankBlair,whoneedstobementionedofteninTexasnaturalhistoryandconservation.ButFrankBlairwasattheUniversityofTexasandheproducedawidevariety,ahugecadre,ofgraduatestudentswhogottheirdissertationsandwentonasPh.D.Facultyatmanystateuniversities,famousallacrossTexasforhisreachandinfluence.JohnKarges[00:14:04]ButDr.PyburnwasoneofthosestudentsandheendedupattheUniversityofTexasatArlingtonandhisspecialtywasneotropicaltreefrogs.Andthat'swhatheactuallyworkedonthemost.ButbecauseUT-Awasdevelopingasaherpetologicalcenterwithafairlylargecollectionatthetimeandrapidlygrowing,Idecidedtogothereratherthanoneoftheotherbiginstitutionsthatwasanoption,liketheUniversityofTexasorTexasA&Mor,orevenTexasTech.AndbecauseIwassomewhatfocusedonherpetology,itwouldhavebeeneitherA&M,UTorUT-A.AndsoIchoseUT-AbecauseitwasbackinmyhomeinFortWorthand,andwas,youknow,agoodandburgeoningprograminfieldbiology,especiallyherpetology,andespeciallywithafocusontheneotropics,sothatwouldbeMexicoandsouthwardthroughCentralAmericaandnorthernSouthAmerica.Andthathadalltheallureofthediversityofthat,thatreptileandamphibianfauna,whatwecall,"herpetifauna",basedfromthewordherpetoorherpes,thereptiles'andamphibians'world.JohnKarges[00:15:16]Andsothat'swhatmademeselectthat.WhenIgotthere.Dr.Pyburnwasactuallyveryclosetotheendofhiscareer.AndIthinkIwasoneofhislastgraduatestudents.ButIendedupworkingonaprojectwiththecheckeredgartersnake,whichoccurs

fromsouthwesternKansas,throughmuchofwesterntwo-thirdsofTexas,asfarwestastheColoradoRiverValleyofCaliforniaandwesternArizona,andthensouthwardwellintoMexico,includingspeciesdistributionallthewaydowntoBritishBelizeandtheYucatanPeninsula.ButIworkedonthecheckeredgartersnakeacrosskindofitsbroadrangeusingmuseumspecimensformyMaster'sthesisunderDr.Pyburn.And,anditwasveryinfluential.InevergotenoughtimewithDr.Pyburn.Wenevergotenoughfieldtime.JohnKarges[00:16:09]Butwedidhavea,atremendousfieldtriptoWestTexas,whichIactuallygottobekindofthecoordinatorbecauseIknewWestTexasfromalotoftravelsoutthere.AndsoIcoordinatedawholeclassfieldtriptotheBigBendandtheDavisMountainsforprobablytheentireweekofspringbreakoneyear.And,anditwasnotmydesertintroduction,becauseI'dbeenouttherequiteafewnumberoftimesonfamilytripsorfromevenfromTexasA&IinKingsville.IwouldactuallygolookingforsnakesoutinWestTexas.SothatwasthatwasanotherinfluentialaspectofconnectingmetoWestTexas.JohnKarges[00:16:53]Andmatteroffact,whenIwaslookingatcollegesfirstandoneofthedecisionpointsbetweenTexasA&Ionthecoast,orinKingsville,andtheotherinstitutionwasSulRossStateUniversityatAlpine,whichalsohadagoodfieldbiology.ItwasrightinthemiddleofallthispubliclandintheTrans-Pecos.ButIoptednottogothere.AndI'mkindofgladIdidbecauseIendedupspendinganother20yearsofmycareerresidinginAlpinearoundSulRoss.AndsoIcould,Icouldcomebacktothat,thatWestTexasexperienceandactuallyspendmuchofmyprofessionalcareerthere.DavidTodd[00:17:28]It'snicetohavealittlevariety,especiallygivenyourfutureworkinTexasandhowdiversethestateis.DavidTodd[00:17:38]Well,youmentionedacoupleofthepeoplethathavebeeninfluential,youknow,fromyourmother,toDr.Chaney,to,toDr.Pyburn.Alotofpeoplewetalktoarealsobigreaders.AndIwascuriousifthereareanybooksthatyoufoundusefulandinspiringthroughyourlife?JohnKarges[00:17:59]Oh,I'vethoughtaboutthatquiteabit.Andtheinterestingthingaboutbooksonthissubject,atleastforme,isIcan'treadenoughandIcan'tgetthemallread.ButthemostimportantonesarecertainlyFredGehlbach,whowasaprofessoratBaylorwhojustpassedacouple,lastyearorso,buthe'dwrittenabookcalled,"MountainIslandsandDesertSeas",aboutthenaturalhistoryoftheU.S.Borderlands.Anditwas,Ithinkit'salsoanA&MPressbook.It'shadacoupleofeditions,butitwasincrediblyinfluentialandIstillrefertoittothesedays.Tothisday,I'llgobacktopassagesorwanttorereadachapterorasectiononageographythatthathaspiquedmyinterest.Andso"DesertIslandsandMountainSeas"byFredGehlbachisoneofthem.JohnKarges[00:18:50]DavidSchmidlyhaswrittenacoupleofveryinfluentialbooks.One,hismorerecentbigbookis"TexasNaturalHistory:OneHundredYearsofChange",inwhichhetookVernonBaily's1905biologicalinvestigationofTexas,andreprintedthatbookinitsentiretyinhisbook,butthenheaugmenteditwithchangesthathavebeenmeasuredandperceivedoverthelastcentury.Thebookcameoutintheearly2000s,butit's"TexasNaturalHistory:AHundredYearsofChange".JohnKarges[00:19:21]There'sacoupleofnewerbooks.BrianChapmanandEricBolenputtogetherabookonthenaturalhistoryofTexas,whichishugelyimportant.Andactuallysomethingthatalotoffolksmightnotappreciate,butthenewestbook,thenewestmanual,

forTexasMasterNaturalists,isoneofthesingularbestcompendiumsofthenaturalhistory,fromgeology,soils,andclimate,uptothebiotaofTexas.Sothoseareallveryinfluential.JohnKarges[00:19:52]Icouldthinkofdozensofothers.TheformerchiefjusticeoftheSupremeCourt,WilliamDouglas,wroteabookcalled,"FarewelltoTexas",whichwashugelyinfluential.ThewritingsofRoyBedichek,andtosomedegree,FrankDobie,astheiconicearlyTexaswritersofthelandscapeandalsosomeofthestoriesofthelandscape.Butthosewereimportanttoo.DavidTodd[00:20:21]Great,greattitlesandreallyevocativetothinkaboutallthe,thelivesthatarerepresentedandthelandscapesinthosebooks.Well,thankyou.DavidTodd[00:20:33]Well,Ithinkthenextactinthisplayistotalkalittlebitaboutyour,yourcareer,earlycareer.IunderstoodthatyoustartedattheFortWorthNatureCenterandRefuge,atleastfor,youknow,onestintasanaturalistthere.Iamalwayscuriousabouthowpeoplefirsthaveresponsibilityandgetpaidtodosomething.Whatwasthatlike?JohnKarges[00:21:00]Well,theNatureCenterhasactuallythreeepisodesof,ofparticipationorinvolvement.Andonewasasastudentnaturalist,butfromstudentnaturalist,Iactuallywashiredaskindoftheweekendwarrior.Iguess,Iguessyouwouldcallittheinternposition,butIwastheweekendnaturaliststaffwith,withoneoftheprofessionalstaffnaturalistsforfouryearsthroughouthighschool,andmyfreshmanyearincollege,asanemployeeoftheCityofFortWorthattheNatureCenter.AndsofromrollingfromstudentnaturalistprogramstotheweekendwarriorandfullsummertimeemploymentforthreesummersoftheNatureCenter,thatwasmyfirststintthere.JohnKarges[00:21:42]ButthenIwentofftocollegeandofftograduateschool.Andmyactually,myfirstjobinthe,inthecareerorbusinesswas,asIwasfinishingmyMaster'sdegreeatUT-A,IactuallylandedapositionasacuratorialcollectionmanagerattheNaturalHistoryMuseumofLosAngelesCounty,inthedivisionofreptilesandamphibians.AndIdidthatforthreeyearsfrom1983to1985,throughtheSummerOlympicsinLosAngeles.ButthatwasaphenomenalexperiencebecauseIwaslikeakidinacandyshop.Iwasinoneoftheworld'spremierreptileandamphibiancollections,oneofthelargestonesontheWestCoastinapublicmuseum.Butit'saresearchcollection.It'sa,it'sanarchiveofbiologicalspecimensfromaroundtheworld.SoIgottoseeandhandleanimalsin,againthey'represerved,they'renot,notlivelikeinazoo,orinthewild,butthey'represervedanimalsfromKomododragonsandseaturtlesandanacondasdowntotinylittlegeckosfromMadagascarandWesternAfrica-aglobaldistributionofthesereptiles.ManyofthemwerefromAustraliaandalotofthemwerenamesIrecognizedfromtheherpetologicalliterature,butneverreallyknewwhattheanimallookedlikeuntilIcouldactuallyholdthejarthathadseveralofthem.JohnKarges[00:23:01]Somepeoplethinkyes,that's,that'skindofmorbid,butthat'sanincrediblyandirreplaceable,incrediblyvaluableandirreplaceablearchiveofthebiodiversityoftheplanetisheldinournaturalhistorymuseums.And,andthere'salotofconcernabout,youknow,therehavebeenexcessivecollecting?Andthereprobablyhas.Butmorenotably,there'salotmoredamageanddegradationtotheenvironment,lossofspecies.JohnKarges[00:23:25]Butthearchivalcollectionsofanimals,whetherit'saFieldMuseumofChicago,ortheNaturalHistoryMuseumoftheSmithsonian,ortheAmericanMuseum,oramuseuminBrussels,orParis,orLondon,orMoscow,orSaoPaulo,Brazil.Thesearearchivesandwarehousesofthebiotaof,oftheworld.Andwestillfindnewspecies,butwealsolose

newspecies.AndIalwaystalkaboutthe,the,thewonderfulannouncementofthediscoveryofanewspeciesandvirtuallytheobituaryannouncingtheextinctionofananimal.JohnKarges[00:24:01]AndsothatwasattheNaturalHistoryMuseum.Thatwasforthreeyears.Andthenmy,myverybestfriendwasthedirectoroftheNatureCenter.Andin1985,hehiredmebacktotheNatureCenterasafull-timeprofessionalstaffnaturalist.DavidTodd[00:24:17]Well,youknow,I'mgladyoumentionedyourtimein,inLosAngeles,andIgatheritechoedsomeofyourworkatWelderWildlife,whereIunderstandyouworkedonthevertebratecollectionsthereaswell.Youknow,this,thiswholeideaofbeingabletoseeandhandlesomethingupclose:itmustbereallyevocative,beyondwatchingsomethingflybyorswimby,orseesomethinginabookonacolorplate.It'shardtoreplace.DavidTodd[00:24:55]Well,so,soseeifwe'reinthesameplace.You'retalkingabouttheFortWorthNatureCenteronyourreturnthereasafull-timeemployeein1985.Didyouworkwiththepublicalot,Iguess,whileyouwerethere?JohnKarges[00:25:09]Well,Idid.Andthat's,that'swhatamajorcenter,anaturalistatapubliclyfundedandpubliclyownednaturecenterspendsagreatdealoftimeoutbound.Whilewecertainlydohabitatmanagement,habitatrestoration,butalotofpublicinterpretationandappreciationfornature.AndtheNatureCenterinFortWorthfocusedonitsbiogeographyofbeingattheedgeoftheWesternCrossTimbersandtheGrandPrairie.Sowehadprairie.WehadCrossTimbersforestwithpostoaksandblackjackoaks.WehadtheTrinityRiverflowingthroughthenaturecenter.Sowehadlowlandwetlandbottom.Wehadswampsandmarshes,flowingriver.JohnKarges[00:25:49]AndsoithadthisamalgamofkindofthebiotaoftheMetroplex,whichwasawonderfulintroductionformanypeopletoknowabout,wheredoyoulive?Youknow,youcanyoucanliveinacity,butformerlythatcitywassittingonaprairie.I'veseenpicturesofTCUcampuswhenitwasonebuildingonaprairieoutsideof,outsideoftown.AndtheTCUcampusIgrewuponwasanurbanmetropolitancampussurroundedbyhousingandexpandinghousingdivisionsoutwestintoformerranchlandsofwesternTarrantCountyandFortWorth.JohnKarges[00:26:27]Sowehadthatthatrepresentationofprairiewithbisonandprairiedogsatthenaturecenter.Wehadthepostoakwoodlandswithtrailsthroughthem.WehadtheboardwalkoutontothelotusmarshastheoutflowofEagleMountainDamontheTrinityRiver.Sowehadjustthis,thiswealthofexposureandopportunitytothecitizensofFortWorth,whomtheNatureCenterservesbecauseit'saFortWorthCityPark,butitalsoservedtheentiremetroplex.JohnKarges[00:26:55]AndIdidmanypublicoutreachprogramsfromeverythingfromtheTarrantCountyDetentionCenter,whereIwouldtakeaun-releasablered-tailedhawkandacaptivetractablepossumandabullsnakeandothernaturalhistoryitemstothingslikeseniorcitizens'facilities,toschoolclasses,totheTarrantCountyyouthdetentioncenter,whichwasreallyaninterestingthingbecausethosekidsareincarceratedforaccusationsofcrimes.AndoneofthemostinterestingoneswasIactuallygaveaprogramtothegolfers'kidsfortheColonialInvitational,andmanyofthegolferswouldtravelwiththeirfamilies.Iftheyhadkids,theywouldhavetofindsomethingforthekidsandspousestobeabletodo.

JohnKarges[00:27:40]SoIwentintoaclassroominAliceB.CarlsonElementarySchoolinFortWorthtogivethisprogramtothegolfers'kids,mynaturalistprogram.AnditwasthethirdgradeclassroomIwassittinginFortWorthwhenwegottheannouncementthatPresidentKennedyhadbeenassassinated.DavidTodd[00:28:01]Ohboy.JohnKarges[00:28:01]Andthatwasreallypoignant.Butitwasanexposuretothekidsforthe,thetravelinggolferfamilies.AndIthinkIusedtocountitupthatIwouldactuallyspeaktoprobablyfivethousandpeopleayearinpublicprogramsofinterpretation.Andthatwaseithertrailhikes,we,wewoulddothingsoff-hours,likeleadnighttimehikesdowntothemarshandtheboardwalkforfolks.And,andthenmany,manypublicprograms,includingformingtheSnakesofTarrantCountyprogramthatintroducedpeopletosnakes.Weactuallydidthat.Wesetthatuptocountertheinformationbeingdistributedatrattlesnakeroundups.DavidTodd[00:28:49]Right,whereIguessthey're,they'rebarbecuingthesesnakes.DavidTodd[00:28:55]Barbecuing,slaughtering,andthiskindofthing.TheSnakesofTarrantCountyWorkshopwaslivesnakeswithgoodinterpretation,professionalqualityherpetologicalinterpretationforthepublictointroducethemtosnakes,letkidshandleasnake.Andabsolutelydiametricallydifferentfromarattlesnakeroundup.DavidTodd[00:29:16]Ohboy.DavidTodd[00:29:18]Well,speakingofthespeciesthatyoumighthavehandledandinterpreted,was,waspartofyoureffortalsotosortofexplaintheroleofurbanandsuburbananimals,whethertheywere,Idon'tknow,skunks,or'possums,orraccoons,youknow,thegracklesandstarlings?Wasthatalsopartofit,where'sit'snotmaybesomeofyourpurewildcreaturesthatarenative,but,butsomeofthecreaturesthat,thatseemtoco-existwellwithpeople?JohnKarges[00:29:54]Well,thenactuallyit'sprobablybeenmoreofaburgeoningthinginthelast30years,istheinteractionbetweenpeopleintheurbanenvironmentandwildanimalsintheurbanenvironment.Itwasnottalkedaboutsomuch30to40yearsago,otherthantheanimalsthatwerebroughttotheNatureCenterthatwerefoundaseitherorphansorinjuredandneededtogotorehabilitatorstobeproperlytakencareof.The,thewholeinteractionnowbetweenpeopleandurbanwildlife,withthedeeronthelawns,oftheskunkinthebackyard,orthe,thegracklesatthemallgroveoftreesovercars,that,thatactuallyhasbecomealotmoreprevalentinthelastfewyears.JohnKarges[00:30:39]AndIthinkthatFortWorthNatureCentertodaywouldprobablyhavetosaytheydodealwiththatalotmore.Imean,thereareferalhogsintheenvironment,bothattheNatureCenterandinpeople'syards.TherearecoyotesandbobcatsintheDallas/FortWortharea.There'salmostbeenlikeanurbanrepatriationofsomeofthese,theseanimals-theoccurrenceofottersontheTrinityRiverbackintheMetroplex.JohnKarges[00:31:04]SoIthinkthat'sactuallyalotmoreprominentthesedaysthanithadbeenperceivedininthepast.And,youknow,it'sadouble-edgedrazor.We'removingfromtheurbanenvironmentintotheruralenvironmentasthecitiesexpand.Andsothere'salotmoreinteractionwithanimals.Andsometimesthey'refairlyadaptable,likeraccoonsand

coyotes,oflivingcompatibly,atleastintheirmind,withpeople,andthenincrementallyinpeople'sminds.DavidTodd[00:31:36]It'sinteresting.Iguesstheanimalsarechangingandpeople'sattitudesarechangingaswell.DavidTodd[00:31:44]Well,let's,let'sjumpaheadalittlebitandtalkabouttheNatureConservancy,whereyouspentageneration,Imean,afull30years,ahugechunkoftime.AndIthinkthat'ssorelatedtothe,yourworkwithDiamondYandwiththeLeonSpringspupfish,whichIreallywanttohearabout.JohnKarges[00:32:08]Yeah.DavidTodd[00:32:09]IwashopingthatyoucouldtalkabouthowyoufirstcametoworkattheNatureConservancy.JohnKarges[00:32:15]Well,in1990,IlefttheNatureConservancy,theNatureCenterinFortWorthandjoinedtheNatureConservancyoutinCaliforniaforjustayearstintonaplacecalledtheCarizzoPlainNaturalArea.AndIwasthereforayear.Ihadafantastictime,Iworkedwith,withallkindsofinterestingbiotaandresearchersontheCarrizoPlainsNaturalarea.It'snowanationalmonument.Butin1991,IwasintheConservancy,soIknewaboutjoblistings,andtheNatureConservancyinTexas,ourTexaschapter,hadjustopenedabrandnewposition,firsttime,forthispositioncalledtheWestTexasLandSteward.JohnKarges[00:32:58]AndsoIthinkitwasinSeptemberof'91thatImovedtoFortStocktonandtooktheroleoftheWestTexasLandSteward.SoIwasinchargeofeverythingtheNatureConservancydidinWestTexas.Now,wealreadyhadseveralpreservesandthosewereacquiredbyourlandprotectionstaffthatwouldeithersecureeasementsor,ortransfersoflandtogovernmententities,orwouldbuythereserves.Andsowehadseveralpreservesandseveralcommitments.Butwehadnostaffoutthere.ThiswasalldoneremotelyfromthestateofficeinSanAntonioatthetime.JohnKarges[00:33:36]AndsobyfillingthatpositionasaWestTexaslandsteward,Iactuallyresidedintheareaandasasteward,landsteward,Iwasoverthepropertiesthatweeitherownedormanagedasconservationeasements.JohnKarges[00:33:49]Now,theConservancyhaddonesomelandtransactionswherewehadpurchasedtheHarteRanchinBigBendNationalParkarea,anditlaterbecamepartoftheNationalPark.ButwealsoatthattimehadBrushyCanyon,whichwasa9800-acrepreserveinBrewsterCounty.WehadjustacquiredtheconservationeasementwiththeChandlerfamilyinTerrellCountyonthePecosRiver,whereIndependenceCreekconfluenceswiththePecos.WehadatinylittlepreserveoutwestoftheGuadalupeMountainscalledGypsumDunesPreserve.Andthenin1990,wealsohadjustpurchasedDiamondY.Andthat'swherewe'llfocusalotofourconversationfortherestoftheinterview.JohnKarges[00:34:33]ButwehadmultiplepropertiesinWestTexasthatIwasresponsibleforandalsoinsomeofthecommunityrelations,becauseit'sgotalongerhistorythanwehavetimeforforourinterview.Butthere'sbeenalotofcontroversyabouttheacquisitionofconservationlandsinWestTexas,beginningwithBigBendNationalParkinthe'40s.AndsotheNatureConservancyactuallywasinthemiddleofsomeofthatcontroversy.Whenwewouldacquireproperties,oreasements,ordotransfers,wewereunderthescrutinyofafairly

suspiciouspublicthatit'snotnotcompletelydonewithnowadays.Butwewerebuildingsomeconservationtrustandwewerecertainlyacquiringcruciallands.JohnKarges[00:35:15]Andsoin1990,actually,evenbeforeIgotthere,theNatureConservancyhadpurchasedDiamondYSpringPreserve,whichatthetimewasa1500-acretractoflandinPecosCounty,justnorthofFortStockton.DavidTodd[00:35:29]Well,whilewewereonDiamondY,whydon'tyoutellusthe,thebackgroundtohowthat,thatpieceoflandwasidentifiedandhow,ifyouknow,thenegotiationswiththe,thelandownereventuallyendedupwithasanctuaryintheNatureConservancy'shands?JohnKarges[00:35:47]Well,thelandwas,wastargetedfortheConservancy'sattention.Well,itactuallyis,itgoesalittlebitbeforeeventheConservancy'sinvolvement.TheDiamondYSpringisararekindofsaltyspringandassociatedmarshland(whichwecalla"cienega"inSpanish)inPecosCounty,andithadbeenknownsinceaboutthe'60stoharborararefish,anultra-rarefishcalledtheLeonSpringspupfish.JohnKarges[00:36:18]Andinthelate'80sandearly'90s,oneofourNatureConservancyboardmemberswasDr.ClarkHubbs.AndhewasthepreeminentfishbiologistandconservationistinTexas,asaprofessoratUniversityofTexas.HewasontheboardoftheNatureConservancyandhewastheprimaryimpetusforalotoftheaquaticconservationfocusfortheNatureConservancyinWestTexas,includingDiamondYSpring.SoourprotectionandprotectionstaffdeterminedthatDiamondYSpringmightbeavailable,anditwasownedbyapersonthatwecanidentify.Andweapproachedthatpersonaboutthepossibilityofpurchasingthat1500acresofhisranchandtheNatureConservancydid.JohnKarges[00:37:04]Now,totakealittlebitfurtherbackfromthat,thereisaninformationsystemcalledthe,now,it'snowcalledtheTexasNaturalDiversityDatabase,butitharborstherecordsofwhatweknowabouttherarestorganisms,plantsandanimalsandnaturalcommunities,acrossTexaswithamappingprogram.Andwemaygettoalittlemoredetailaboutthat.Butwealso,atthattime,knewthatnotonlywastheLeonSpringspupfishatDiamondYSpring,butalsowasthePecosgambusia.Andbothoftheseanimalswerefederallyendangeredspeciesoffish.ButtheLeonSpringspupfish,itoccurredatDiamondYSpringandastheonlyknownwildpopulationontheplanet.ItwasnamedLeonSpringspupfishbecauseitwasoriginallyoccurredatLeonSprings,whichhaslongsincedriedup.It'sabouteightmileswestofFortStockton.JohnKarges[00:37:56]Andwhenthe,thespringsdriedup,thefishwaspresumed(itwasknowntoscience-ithadbeendescribedinthe1850sinabiologicalexpedition),butitwaspresumedextinct.Anditwasnotuntil1965thatthefishwasrediscovered.Andwhenitwasrediscovered,announcedtothescientificcommunitythatthis,thefishstillexisted,thenitwasidentifiedasbeingatDiamondYSpring.Andsothat'swhatreallyfosteredtheNatureConservancy'sinterestinconservingDiamondYSpring.Soin1990,everystatechapteroftheNatureConservancytriedto,tosealadealorcompleteaconservationacquisitionprojectonEarthDayof1990,andtheTexasonewasDiamondYSpringPreserveacquisition.DavidTodd[00:38:51]Doyouknowmuchaboutthe,theoriginalowneroftheDiamondY,andwhythisspringmighthavepersistedsincesomanyspringshaddrieduporbeendegradedinsomeway?

DavidTodd[00:39:04]Well,theownerisMr.M.R.Gonzalez.HestilllivesinFortStockton.Hewasacountycommissionerandhisfamilywasamulti-generationranchfamilyinFortStockton,PecosCountyranches,elsewhereaswell.Buthe,hehadworkedwiththefishbiologistyearsbeforetheConservancy'sinvolvementtobuildaprotectivecollararoundthespring.NowthespringissittinginthemiddleofaGomezoilandgasfield.Andtherewasanaturalgasplantnottooterriblyfar,lessthanhalfamile,fromthespring.Andsoininthe'70s,Ibelieveitwas,Mr.Gonzalez,attheencouragementandimpetusofafishbiologist,workedwiththeNaturalResourceConservationServiceoratthattime,theSoilConservationService,tobuildaprotectiveleveearoundthespringssothatshouldtherebeasurfacespillatthatgasplant,thatthespringwouldbecollaredbythisprotectivebermthatwouldpreventleakageintothespringsbecauseweknewthat'swheretheLeonSpringspupfishwas,alsothePecosgambusiaandnowactuallyseveralotherrarespeciesaswell.JohnKarges[00:40:15]Soin1990,weconsummatedthedealwithMr.Gonzalez.Hewasawillingseller.Hewasstillalivestockman.Hegrazedthepreserve.WeactuallyhadaleasethatextendedintoafewyearsoftheConservancy'sownershipwithMr.Gonzalez.Andweworkedwithhimonpasturemanagementandfencerotation,fence,fencebuildingandpasturemanagementrotationsothatthespringswouldbeprettywellprotectedfromeitherovergrazingorthemechanicaldamageofcattle.JohnKarges[00:40:46]Andthere'saveryplantuptherecalledthePecosorpuzzlesunflower.Andweknewthatthecattleliketoeatthosesunflowerswhentheywerejustsendinguptheirfloweringheads.Becausethat'sanannualplant,thoseseedheads,ifthey'reinacow'sbelly,neverturnintosunflowers.Soweactuallyworkedwithhimtotakethecattleoffofthepasturewiththesunflowerswhilethey'reboltingupandmakingtheirbeautifulyellowsunflowerheads.Andthenaftertheseedssetattheendofthatgrowingseason,thenthecattlecomebackontothegroundandontothatpastureandeatthegrassaroundthespring,buttheywouldnotimpacttherareplant.JohnKarges[00:41:22]Soitwasallrealcompatiblecollaborationwiththeformerranchowner,veryagreeabletohim.Hestillgottograzehiscattleonhisheritageranchland.Butwealsomanageditforconservationpurposes.Andbecauseit'sinthemiddleoftheoilandgasfield,wealsoworkedwithenergycompaniestopreventanykindofdegradationorthreattothespringsorthewatercoursefromanoilspillorapipelineaccidentorsomethinglikethat.DavidTodd[00:41:51]Well,thisisreallyinterestingbecauseIthink,asyousaidwhenyouwentoutthere,IguesstherewasarealburgeoningcontroversywithTakeBackTexasandalotofpropertyrightsadvocateswhowerenonetoopleased,Iguess,aboutacquisitionoflandsoutthere.Anditsoundslikeyou,youmanagedtothreadthisneedlewithMr.Gonzalez.AndIlikeyour,ifyouwould,somethingaboutyourcollaborationandtheNatureConservancy'scooperationwiththeselocaloilcompaniesthatIguesswereoperating.Ithinkthere'repumpjacksandpipelinesandrefineriesoutthereveryclosetothespring.JohnKarges[00:42:33]Therearetherearepipelinesandpumpjacks.There'sbothoilandgas.ThisistheGomezgasfield.Andit'saveryshallowoilfieldthat'skindofplayingout.It'snotashighlyproductiveasitusedtobe.It'sallinthemiddleofthePermianBasin.Soalotofenergyproduction.Andthere'salsosomeverydeepgaswells.Butthereweremajors,majorcompaniesthatwereworkingoutthere,andwhenitcametolightthattheNatureConservancywouldacquireaDiamondYSprings,theywere,theoilcompanieswereverywillingtoworkwithustoprotect,firstofall,theirassets,butalsoagainstenvironmentaldegradation.

JohnKarges[00:43:15]Andsotheywerewillingtodouble-wrappipelinesacrossaquaticareaswherethepipelineshadtobethere(theyhadtogettoremain),buttheywouldputprotectivecollarsaroundthem.Theywouldelevatepipelinessothattheywouldnotcorrodeundergroundandthereforeruptureandmakeaspill.Andtheywouldmakebermsaroundtheirproductionsites.Sopumpjacks,atthepad,thatwouldbeafullcontainmentsiteshouldaleakdeveloppriortodetection.Andtheywereverysentinel,responsive,aboutbeingoutthereeverydaywhenthepumpjackwasworking,orinoperationandpumping.JohnKarges[00:43:55]Andthe,actually,Exxoncompanyworkedwithus.AndwematchedmoneywiththeNationalFishandWildlifeFoundationtorestoresomepadsitesandthat,thesesiteshadbeentakenoutofproduction.Theynolongerhadinfrastructureonthemandweactuallyrestoredthemeithertothenativegradientoftheterrainand/orwithrevegetation.Andthatwasaverycollaborativeproject.JohnKarges[00:44:22]Soandtheyalso,theenergycompanies,becauseit'sa,thereweresevenfederallyendangeredorthreatenedlistedspeciesoutthere,theywerefairlyresponsivetoanykindofthreatandornotificationof,iftherewasaspillandpromptattentionandremediationorabatementof,ofanykindofthreat.JohnKarges[00:44:48]Soitwasareallycollaborative.AnditwasfunnybecauseIonetimeranintoanoilfieldworkeroutthereandhesaid,welly'allarepartoftheenvironmentalmovementthatistryingtoshutusdown.AndItookanotherpersonfromaverystridentenvironmentalgroupoutthereandhesaid,"Oh",becausewehadasignouttherethattalkedaboutthepartnerships,andhesaid,"Oh,youallareinbedorincahootswiththeseenergyproductionproducers."AndIsaid,"Youknow,wemustbedoingsomethingrightbecausewe'rerightinthemiddleofacontroversialcenter."DavidTodd[00:45:17]Gosh.Youwereincahootsandenvironmentalradicals,atthesametime.That's,that'sacomplicatedplacetobe.JohnKarges[00:45:26]It'swhatwecalltheradicalcenter.DavidTodd[00:45:29]That's,that'sagoodtermforit.DavidTodd[00:45:33]Well,youtalkedalittlebitaboutthe,the,thelandownersandtheoilandgasoperatorsandtheland.JohnKarges[00:45:42]AndIwashopingyoucouldtellusalittlebitabouttheenvironmentalhistoryoftheLeonSpringspupfishitself,becauseitseemslikeit'shadareallybumpyhistory.Imean,fromitsdiscoverybackinthe1850sand,youknow,atvarioustimes,inundatedanddisappearedandpoisoned.Anditamazinglyhardycreaturetohavemadeitto2021.Canyoutellusmuchaboutitshistory?DavidTodd[00:46:14]Well,Ican.Thepupfish,ofcourse,wasdescribed,aswementionedearlier,in1850sandthenitwasvirtuallyeitherignored,orforgotten,orthelandwasinaccessibletoseewhetheritwasstillatLeonSprings.WeknowLeonSpringsdriedupaboutthesametimeasthemostfamousspringinTexasandcertainlyinPecosCounty.ComancheSpringsdriedupinthelate50s.Well,LeonSpringswasmuchlessfamousinComanchebecauseComanchewasahuge-volume,spring-feddischargerightinthecenterofFortStockton,averycontentiouslegalcasethatrecodifiedTexasrightofcapturewaterlaw.But

therewas,there'sapoolinRooneyParkinComanche,aroundComancheSprings,inFortStocktonthatwasbiggerthananOlympic-sizepool.Andwhenthespringswereflowingnaturallybeforethe'50s,thatpoolvolumewouldchangeevery15minutes.Itwassuchaspringdischarge.Well,whenthatspringdeclinedinthelate'50sandthecourtcasewassettled,wealsolostLeonSpringsoutwestofFortStocktonandthefishwaspresumedextinct.JohnKarges[00:47:23]Andthenwhenitwasrediscoveredbyabiologist(andkindofaninterestingstory)asbeingintheDiamondYDraw,northofFortStockton,that'swhenthefishcommunity,thefishconservationcommunityandTexasendangeredspeciesbiologists,firstofall,announcedtherediscoveryofwhatwasthoughttobeanextinctspecies,andthenthelistingofitasanendangeredspecies,andtheconfirmationthatitstilloccurredatDiamondYSpringon,onthisgentleman'sranch,Mr.Gonzalez'sranch,andthenultimatelyundertheConservancy'sownershipin1990.JohnKarges[00:48:01]Well,thepupfishisanincredibleanimal.Matteroffact,it'sverydiverse.There'sahugegroupofpupfishoutinDeathValley,andAmargosaSprings,and,andDevil'sSinkholeinCalifornia.TherearepupfishintheeasternChihuahuanDesert,includingtheLeonSpringspupfish,theComancheSpringspupfish,whichwasextirpatedfromComancheSpringswhenitdriedup,thePecospupfish,whichstilloccursintheriverinverylimitednumbers,andtheDevil'sRiverpupfish,aConchospupfish,whichalsooccursintheRioConchosinChihuahua,Mexico.SowehavethiskindofepicenterofpupfishdiversityintheTrans-PecosofTexas.JohnKarges[00:48:43]AndToadfisharealsoremarkableinthefactthattheyhavesomeofthewidestthermaltolerancesfromcoldwatertohotwaterofanyvertebrate.Andtheycanliveinverysaltywaters.Sopupfishhaveactuallybeenusedinbiologicalkidneyresearchinhumankidneysonhowdoes,howdoesthebodymanagesalt.Andthekidney,ofcourse,removessaltfromtheblood.Howdoesapupfishtoleratethissaltyenvironmentthatcanbealmosthotspringslike?Imean,I'veseenfishthrivinginwaterthatalmostistoohottowadeinandtheyseemtodowell.Sothey'rerealsurvivors.JohnKarges[00:49:25]Buttheotherthingaboutpupfishistheyareextremelygeographicallyrestricted.There'salotofendemics,whichmeaningthatistheonlyplacetheyoccurontheworld-liketheLeonSpringspufferfish.Theyhaveaverylimitedrange.Theirevolutionaryhistory,howtheygotseparated,anddivided,andisolated,andthenformedfullspecies,isfascinatingresearchendeavorthatDr.TonyEchellefrom,formerlyfrom,OklahomaStateUniversityhadworkedonforyears.Butwedoknowthatthey'reverydiverseandmostofthe,manyoftheplaceswheretheyoccur,likethere'sapupfishoutinWhiteSands,wherethere'sstillastreaminNewMexico-avery,veryaridenvironmentandtheyrearestillpupfish.ThesameistrueintheNevada/CaliforniaborderpupfisharoundandnorthofDeathValley.Sothey're,firstofall,whenyoujustthinkaboutafishinthedesert.That'sgottobefairlylimitingbecausewaterislimited.DavidTodd[00:50:29]Soundslikeanoxymoron.JohnKarges[00:50:31]Itreallydoes.Andso,sowherethereare,wheretherearestillsustainablewaters-andthat'soneofthecrucialthingsaboutDiamondSpring-aslongaswecansustainthatsurfacewateravailability,wehopethatwecanalsomanagethehabitatandsufficientspaceforaviablepopulationofpupfish.

DavidTodd[00:50:52]Well,couldyou,Iknowthis,you'renot,Iguess,inyourday-to-daylife,ahydrologist,butyoumentionedthatLeonSpringsis,ishighlydependenton,Iguess,bothsurfacewaterandgroundwaterflows.Canyoutalkalittlebitaboutthe,the,thehistoryofwaterpolicyandrightsoutthere?AndIthinkyoumentionedinpassingsomeofthecontroversiesbackinthe'50sthatweresocriticalfor,forgroundwaterlawacrossthestate.JohnKarges[00:51:27]Well,I'mnottheexpertonthecurrentflavorandtenorofTexasgroundwaterpolicy,butofcourse,that'shugelycontroversialand,andveryproprietarybecauseofthenumerouscourtcases,includingtheoneinFortStocktonwiththeWilliamsestateagainsttheCityofFortStocktonforgroundwaterrights.JohnKarges[00:51:51]ButatDiamondYSpring,it'sexclusivelygroundwater.Andweknowthatthereareatleastthree,ifnotfour,aquifersthatcontributetotheupwellingofwaterthatmakethespring.Butit'sabsolutelycrucialthattherebesurfacewateravailabilityforpupfishhabitat,forraresnailhabitat,forPecosgambusiahabitat,andevensaturatingthesoilsoutfortheadjacentmarshland,forthePecossunflower.Sowatersustainabilityoutthereisvery,verycrucial.JohnKarges[00:52:24]Butitalsoisvery,itrequiresatremendousamountofresearchtoknowtruecauseandeffectofeithergroundwaterthreatordiminishmentofgroundwateravailability.Andwhatisitsrealcause?Isitgeohydrologic?Isitseismic?Isitextractionforfrackingormunicipalwater?Andit'sallaverytangledwebthatstillrequiresalotofresolutionthroughoutmuchofTexas,butespeciallyinwestTexas,wherewateriseithercriticallyimportanttosurfaceconservationandorcriticallyimportanttohumaneconomicendeavorsandwell-beingofcommunities.JohnKarges[00:53:07]So,Ican'treallytalkaboutwaterrightsofDiamondY.YoumentionedearlieraboutMr.Gonzales.Mr.Gonzaleswasarancher,notafarmer.Sohedidn'tuseirrigationrights.Hemayhavehadirrigationrights,but,butgroundwaseithernotsuitabletobetilledforfarmlandbecauseitwassosalty,orhispreferenceandhis,hislivelihoodand,andlifewasbeingacattlerancher,astockman.Sohe,we'veneverreallyworriedaboutwaterrightsfromDiamondY.Butwe'reabsolutelyconcernedaboutwaterextractionintheareaandthereductionofgroundwateravailability,whichisexpressedassurfacesprings.DavidTodd[00:53:55]OK.Well,thisisfascinating.You'vegotsuchacomplexoverlayof,ofissues,youknow,fromthelandtothewater,tothe,youknow,thelandownership,toitsoperationforoilandgas.And,andthroughitallisthisthreadabouttheLeonSpringspupfish.Andso,asyousaidit,itreappearsinthemid'60sinDiamondY.AndIwashopingthatyoucoulddescribealittlebitaboutDiamondY,andaboutthepopulationofthefishintheSpringsandDrawthere.JohnKarges[00:54:38]Right.Well,DiamondYisreallyinteresting,andsomeofour,evensomeoftheNatureConservancyliteraturesaid,youreallyexpectit,butit'saholeinthegroundthathaswaterinit.Andwhenyoulookatit,you'restandingtherewithme,I'lltellalotmoredetailsaboutthevitalityandthecrucialnatureofthisdesertspringfromthisgroundwaterupwellingintowhatvirtuallyisaholeinthedesertthat'sfullofwaterwithsomeperipheralsprings.Andthenthespring,thewaterthatflowsoutofthat,thatpoolflowsdownstreamforaways.AndI'mtalkingseveralhundredyards.Andthenitgoesbackintotheground,soakedintothesoilsofthatvalleyfloor.Andthenabout,overamileaway,thesprings,orthewaterflow,againreappears.Andthere'safewhandful,there'sahandfulfewofsidespringsthatalsocontributetoit.

JohnKarges[00:55:34]Buttheirsurfacewateratthenorthernend,orthedownstreamend,thatalsohasthepupfish.Sowevirtuallyhavetwoseveredpopulationsofthepupfish.Andbecausesomeofthesespringholesarefairlydeep,they'reveryhardtocountthepupfish.Youcan,youcandomultiplepersonestimatesaroundtheedgeofthepool,andsay,"OK,Isaw47.""Isaw64."Andyoutrytoaverageit,andhopethatthat'sprettyaccurate.Buttheyarereally,reallychallengingtocountthataslongaswe'reseeingpupfishthat'ssubstantial.Ifwedon'tseepupfish,that'sofconcern.JohnKarges[00:56:09]Andoneofthecontingenciesthatthefishbiologistshaddoneinthe'70swastheyactuallyhadremovedsomeoftheLeonSpringspupfishfromDiamondYSpringandtakenthemtotheDexterNationalFishHatchery,whichisnowFish&WildlifeServiceFishTechnologyCenter,wheretheyhave,theyhavereservepopulationsofrare,someoftherarestfishesinholdingpensandtanksatthatfacility,whichisvery,veryprescient.That's,that'shavingyoureggsinaseparatebasket,incasethere'scatastrophismattheonlyplacethey'reknown-likeanoilspillorwhatever.So,weatleasthaveacontingencyofknowingthatwehavesomeofthegeneticmaterialandthepopulationsinreserve,andthat,that'struefortheLeonSpringspupfish,andseveralotherraresouthwesternU.S.fishes,aswell.DavidTodd[00:57:04]Andwhenyou'vebeenactingasthelandstewardinwestTexasfortheNatureConservancy,whathavebeensomeofthechallengesinmanagingthisDiamondYPreserveforthe,theLeonSpringspupfish,aswellasforsomeoftheotherendangeredspeciesthatareoutthere?JohnKarges[00:57:24]Well,there'sbeenseveraldifferentactions.Alotofitiscertainlyapartner-assistorpartner-associated,includingwiththeoilcompanies,totrytopreventanykindofaspill,oraccident,orlikeaturned-overoilfieldtruck,orsomethinglikethatfromcontaminatingthewatercourse.Sowe'vehadagoodcommunicationwiththem,plustherestorationoftheoldpadsitesandthenalotofcollaborativeresearchpartnershipslikewithDr.EchelleinwhatusedtobecalledtheRioGrandeFish'srecoveryteam,thatDr.Hubbs,Dr.Echelleandmany,manyotherprominentSouthwesternfishconservation,eitheracademic,biologistoragencybiologistswerepartof.SowedidalotofcollaborationandmeetingsanddeliberationsaboutwhatneededtohappenoutatDiamondY.JohnKarges[00:58:17]Andsomeofthestewardshipactionswerewetriedto,andthisisacontinuousbattle,wetriedtoreducetheever-presentandexpandingintroducedplant,thesaltcedarortamarisktree,becauseweknowthey'rewater-thirsty.Andifthey'redrinkingthewater,thatmeansthere'snotwaterforrarefishesorrareaquaticsnails.Andsowewoulddosomeaquaticorriparianrestorationbytryingtoremovetamariskorthesaltcedarfromencroachinguponthesprings,arebecomingtoonumerousaroundortoomaturewithitsdeepsoda-strawtaproots.WewouldactuallyapplyfiretothegrasslandsofthebasinoftheDiamondYSpringandinthecienegagrasslands,becausethoseannualgrasseswouldgetreallysenescentordecadentandthefirewouldactuallyreturnthosenutrientstothesoil,andallowforresprout.JohnKarges[00:59:15]Butthere'salsomesquiteonthepreserve.Sowewouldusefiretotrytocontainthemesquite.Andtheunfortunatethingisthatwhenyouburnmesquitethefirstfewtimes,itactuallycomesbackwithathank-younoteforthankingyouforthefire,becauseit'srejuvenated.Butthemoreoftenyoucanburnit,andthat's,that'skindoftheobligationfortheConservancy,andatoughthingtogettheresourceswithitforisto,istoburnwiththefrequencythatthepreserveneedsit.

JohnKarges[00:59:43]Wewouldalsotrytodosomeaquatichabitatmanagementforthingslikethepupfish.Oneofthebigconcernswasthewe,weactuallyknowhistorically,sincefishresearchhasbegunoutthere,thatthere'snotquiteasmuchwaterandnotmuch,quiteasmuchofanexpanseofinundatedlandthatisnowpupfishhabitat.Wherewhenwelostthatexpanseofhabitatandmaybebecauseofwaterflows,wedon'treallyhavehistoricwatermeasurements.Butwejustknowthatthemorewateris,themoreaquatichabitatthereisinthevalleyfloor.JohnKarges[01:00:19]Well,asthishasdeclined,we,weactuallyhavehadsomethingslikeascirpusreed,whichisanatural,salt-tolerantreedofthemarshlands,becomevery,veryprolific.Andsooneoftheactionsofthathabitat-crowdingorchange,whichactuallycutsomeofthescirpusoutfromthemarshandreplacedthemwithconcreteorcinderblocktilesthatwouldgivethepupfishadequatespacetohaveanest,aneggdepositionsite.Thesethingsarecalledpupfishbecausethemalesareveryterritorial.They'repugnaciouslittleguyswhochaseeachotherallovertheplace,tryingtoguardandprotectthatterritoryandjustprovideforthefemalesthattheycansothespawnwillbetheiroffspring.JohnKarges[01:01:07]Soafemalewoulddepositaneggandthenthemalewithdepositors'ismilkorhisspermoverit.Thatfertilizestheegg.Theeggisnotfree-floatingoutinthecolumn.It'sactuallydepositedonahardsubstrate,likeacinderblock,oraplantstalk,or,orsomekindoffirmstructureoutthere.Andsowewouldactuallyaugmentthehabitatbyaddingthecinderblocktiles.JohnKarges[01:01:31]Andthere's,there'sprospectsandproposalsforactuallyexpandingthathabitat.Butthehugeconcernis,isthereenoughwatertosustainthat?Andoneofthebigaspectswithpupfishisyouknow,wecouldput40,000pupfishinthere,butmaybethathabitatcanonlytake10,000.Sothat'sanotherthat'sanotherconsideration.Butwewoulddoaquatichabitatmanagement,aquaticresearch,uplandorterrestriallandmanagementsurroundingthesprings.Muchofthepreserve,andthepreserveisfarlargerthanjusttheoriginal1500acres.Nowadays,it's,it's4000acres.Butalotofthat'slimestoneuplandthatwe'renotasconcernedwithbecausetheaquaticshavetheNatureConservancy'sprimefocusonsustainabilityandsustenancethatspring.DavidTodd[01:02:21]Isee.Well,youmentionedsomeoftheeffortsto,topushbackagainstthecrowdingofthisscirpusreed.Iunderstandthatasidefromthat,there'salsobeenanefforttotrytoprotecttheLeonSpringspupfishagainsthybridization.Isthatsomethingyouwereinvolvedin?JohnKarges[01:02:47]Iwas.Well,Icertainlywas,andthathasalwaysbeenabigissuetousisthereisafishfromtheTexascoastcalledthesheepsheadminnow,whichisinthesamegenusasthepupfish.It'sCyprinodonvariegatus.Andsomehow,andDr.EchellecanarticulatethisfarmoreknowledgeablythanIcan,butsomehowthe,thesheepsheadminnowfromtheTexascoasthasbeenintroducedintoseveralspringandstreamsystemsinWestTexas,tothedetrimentofournativepupfish,becausetheyeitherhybridizeoroutcompetethenativefish.JohnKarges[01:03:24]Andthatwasactuallypartofaneffortonetime,IthinkitwasactuallypartoftheefforttogettheoriginalpupfishtoDexterNationalFishTechnologyCentersowe'dhaveour,oureggsinyetadifferentbasketshouldtherebeareasonorcatastrophism,asIsaid.Well,thatwasin,Ithink,inthe'80s,oryeah,itwasinthe'80sandmaybelate'70s,thattheywereworkingonthe,thepupfishgeneticsandgeneticpurityoftheLeonSpringspupfish.

Andthenintheearly'90s,theRioGrandeFish'sRecoveryTeamsponsoredaprojectoutthereto,torestorethe,thepupfishintheSpringsasthepurestonestheycould.SowhatwedidwasweactuallymanagedtheSpringssothatwecouldbringbackpupfish,purepupfishfromDextertore-populatethemainheadspringandthemainoutflowto,toconservethepupfish.JohnKarges[01:04:25]ButcurrentlyrightnowIknowtheNatureConservancyhasaprojecttolookatthegeneticsofthepupfishinbothofthewatersystemsatDiamondY-theupperwatercoursewheretheheadspringisandthelowerwatercoursethatImentionedearlier-andthenalsocompareandcontrastittothecaptivepupfishatDexter,justsowehavethegreatestgeneticvarietyofthegeneswe'resupposedtohave,i.e.thegenesoftheLeonSpringspupfishinthethreepopulations.Andthat'sbeing,that'sbeingassessedcurrently.DavidTodd[01:04:58]Isee.Well,youknow,it'sinterestingtohearyoutalkabouttheeffortstomanageandprotectandrestoretheseLeonSpringspupfish.AndI'dbecurioustohearyourthoughtsabouthowthechallengesandthemanagementapproachesfortheLeonSpringspupfishcomparewith,youknow,someoftheotherraredesertfishthatyou'veprobablyrunacrossinyourmanyyearsinwestTexas-theDevil'sRiverminnow,theComancheSpringpupfish,Pecosgambusia,etcetera.JohnKarges[01:05:34]Well,letmestartwiththePecosgambusia,becauseitco-occurswiththeLeonSpringspupfishandalsotheComancheSpringspupfishoverinBalmorhea,inwhatwecalltheBalmorheaSpringscomplex,whichareanumberofspringsatBalmorhea,notjustthemainspringthatfeedsthefamousswimmingpoolthatjustreopened,butthe,thereareseveralspringsoverthere.ButthePecosgambusia,it'salive-bearer.AndGambusiaisjustthegenusofthemosquitofish.Soit'sverymuchlikethecommonmosquitofishthat'sbeenintroducedallovertheglobeformosquitocontrolandmalariaconcerns.ButthePecosgambusiaisanendemictothePecosRiverbasin,virtuallyfromRoswellsouthtoabout,actually,I'mnotsurehowfarsouth,but,butmostlyonthePecosplains,sonorthofSheffieldonI-10,butespeciallyatDiamondYSpringandLeonandComancheSpringshabitat,whichisatBalmorheanowbecauseComancheSpringsisdriedup,oratleastisnolongerpupfishhabitat.JohnKarges[01:06:38]SothePecosgambusiaisafederallyendangeredspecies,notquiteasrareastheLeonSpringspupfish,butstillqualified,warrantingendangeredspeciesstatus.AndatDiamondYSpring,itco-occurswithpupfish.Well,wedidfindthatwhenapupfishfemalewouldlayhereggs,thePecosgambusiawouldactuallyeattheeggoffofthedepositionsite.Andwhatdoyoudowhenyouhaveoneendangeredspecieseatinganotherendangeredspecies?Well,myfeelingaboutthatisifwehaveenoughhabitatforanumberofPecos,ofLeonSpringspupfish,thenwe'llhaveenoughsothatsomeoftheiroffspringalsofeedthePecosgambusia.Butwehaven'treallymeasuredthePecosgambusia.Itmight,definitelyisknowntocausethedeclineorlocalextinctionorextirpationoftheLeonSpringspupfish,andthat'sjustthePecosgambusia.SoIhopethere'senoughhabitatatDiamondYSpringandalsoattheBalmorheaSpringscomplexoverinBalmorhea,thatthere's,there'sroomforbothspeciestoflourish,evenifthey'restillundertheendangeredspeciesveil.JohnKarges[01:07:51]Theotherfishyoumentioned,liketheDevil'sRiverminnowandsomeoftheotherfishesIknowandworkedwithinconservationinWestTexas,arestreamfishes,andtheyoccureitherintheDevil'sRiverortributarystreamsofthePecos,likeIndependenceCreek.AndbecausetheDevil'sRiverandtheIndependenceCreekareentirelyspring-fed,they'rehighqualityEdwards-TrinityAquiferwatersthatstillsustainspring-obligatespeciesoffishliketheheadwaterscatfish,theRioGrandedarter,theDevil'sRiver

minnow,theProserpineshiner.There'sawholelittleguild,orsuiteof,orsubsetofRioGrandefishfauna,whichincludesthePecosandtheDevil's,thatarethese,theseraritiesinconservation.AndI'vegottentoworkwiththemintheDevil'sRiverandalsoatIndependenceCreek.AndthentheNatureConservancy,whenIwaswiththem,weactuallywereinvolvedwiththeComancheSpringspupfish,butnotatBalmorhea,butatPhantomLakeandPhantomSpring,whichiswestofBalmorhea,butinthesamespringscomplex.DavidTodd[01:08:58]Soitsoundslikeallthesefish,Iguess,sharesimilarcharacteristicsinthatthey're,Iguess,extremelyisolatedandthenverydependentonthe,theflowregimesinthatarea.Isthatfair?JohnKarges[01:09:17]Yeah,they'redependentonbothflowregimesandwaterquality.DavidTodd[01:09:21]OK.JohnKarges[01:09:22]AndbecausethewatercomingoutofIndependenceCreek,thespringsatIndependenceCreek,orthespringsthatfeedtheDevil'sRiver,I'vekneltdownlikeamountainlionanddrankstraightoutofthosesprings.Theyarehighquality,Edwards-TrinityAquiferdischarge.AndtheDevil'sRiverisprettyunimpactedforitsentirety.It'sonly45mileslong,fromitsheadwatersdowntoLakeAmistad.JohnKarges[01:09:45]AndthePecos,thePecos,issuchanenigmaticriver.BecauseonthePecosplain,onceitentersTexasatRedBluff,southofCarlsbad,it'sa,it'sasaltydewateredtrickleacrossthedesert,untilitgetstothecanyonssouthofI-10andSheffield,thelimestonecanyonsofitsownmaking.AndfromtheredowntoitsconfluencewithLake,theRioGrandeatLakeAmistad,thatriver,unlikemostotherriversintheUnitedStates,actuallygetsbetterthefartherdownstreamyougobecauseofthespringaugmentationanddilution.DavidTodd[01:10:22]Thatissointeresting.Thatdoesseemflippedonitsheadfromotherstreamsandriversthatseemtoaccumulateallof...JohnKarges[01:10:32]Allofourcumulativeills.DavidTodd[01:10:34]Yeah,yeah,JohnKarges[01:10:36]Asyougodownstream.AndthePecos,Iactuallycallit,whatdoIcallit?Thesameriverin,threeriversinthesamechannel,becausewherethePecosstartsintheSangredeChristosinthePecoswilderness,itisaRockyMountainclear-flowingtroutstream.ThenitflowsacrossNewMexicoandthePecosPlainofTexas,whichalotofpeoplecallthePermianBasin,anditisdewatered.It'shighsalinity.It's,it'sactuallywhatIcallit,anemasculatedriver.ButonceitgetsintothecanyonssouthofI-10,itgetsbetterandbetterbecauseofallthesespringdischargesuntilitemptiesintoLakeAmistadandthenallbetsareoff.Butitis,it'saninterestingriver.Andthosethreereachesaresomarkedlydifferent.DavidTodd[01:11:28]Youknow,I'dliketo,withyourpermission,returntojusttalkalittlebitaboutpupfish.Andasyou'veexplainedthem,they're,they'rejustafascinating,hardy,diverse,veryspecialandinterestinggroupofanimals.Butthey,theyarenotlargeandfamousandcharismaticand,youknow,greatforsportfishingorforbigbarbecuemeals.JohnKarges[01:12:02]Sowhysavethem?

DavidTodd[01:12:03]Yeah,Ithinkthatthat's,it'sa,it'saquestion.AndI'mcurioushowyourespondtothat.DavidTodd[01:12:12]Well,Icantakeitpurelyfromabiodiversestandpoint,morethan,morethanananthropocentricstandpoint.Justthefactthattheseareendemicsinafunctioningecosystemthathavearole,whattheroleis,we'renotabsolutelypositive.Whatwouldhappeniftheywereextirpatedoreliminatedfromthesystem,we'renotsureabouttheconsequences.But,ethically,itseemslike,forconservation,thosesystemsshouldbeasintactaspossible,withprotectionofsustenance,whichisthegroundwater,andprotectionoftheirroleinthat,thatnaturalenvironment.JohnKarges[01:12:57]Yes,sir.Pupfishhavenoeconomicbenefit.JohnKarges[01:13:01]Imean,thePecossunflowerthatgrowsaroundthethewetlandsofthemarshesthere,we'veactuallytakentheseedsofthoseandwe'vedepositedthemattheNationalCryogenicSeedBank,whichmeansthatthey'reingeneticreserve.ButtherewasalsosomeexperimentationwiththeseedsfromthePecossunflowertohybridizethemwithacommercialgradeofsunflowertoseeifyoucanactuallygrowacommerciallyviablecropofsunflowersonpreviouslyunarablesaltyland.Now,wedon'twantthosehybridsonthepreservebecausethat'swherethepurePecossunfloweris.Butithadananthropocentricmotivationtolookatthatsalt-tolerantplant,toseeifitactuallycouldmakeacommercialgradeplantthatyoucoulduseonlandsthatpreviouslyhadnotbeencommerciallyproductive.So,youknow,thePecossunflowermighthavethathumanreasonforkeepingitgoing.JohnKarges[01:14:02]Butthepupfish,again,itdoesn'thavetobeatrophy.Imean,abigoldwall-hangerboarmaleisonlytwoincheslong.So,thereasontopreserveittomeisaresponsibilitytokeepbiologicalintactnessandviabilitywherewecanontheplanet.DavidTodd[01:14:25]SoIguessundertherationalethatthefirstruleofintelligenttinkeringistokeepallthepieces?JohnKarges[01:14:33]Right.DavidTodd[01:14:35]OK,well,Ithinkthatthatpartofthevalueoftheseanimalsisstillunknown.AndIthinkthatit'dbecurioustohearaboutyourworkwiththeTexasNaturalHistorySurvey,thisdatabaseofbiologicalinformation,whichIthinkisbeenareallyamazing,far-flungefforttounderstandmoreaboutplacesandcreatures.AndcouldyoutalkalittlebitabouttheSurveyand,youknow,itsvalue,particularlyinastatethathassomuchprivatepropertywhereitmaynotbeasfullyexploredassomeotherstates.JohnKarges[01:15:21]Well,inoneofmyformerroleswiththeConservancywasasthedirectoroftheTexasNaturalHistorySurvey.AndithasaveryinterestingpastinthefactthatthereisaglobaldatabasecalledtheNaturalDiversityDatabase.It'sactuallyrunbyanorganizationthatwassplitofffromtheNatureConservancycalledNatureServe.Andit'saglobalnonprofitorganizationthatisacentralrepository,andkindofaclearinghouse,forthebiologicaldistributionrecordsofplantsandanimals,especiallytherarities,acrosstheplanet.AndNatureServewasformed,likeIsaid,bya,byaveryforward-thinkingmannamedDr.BobJenkinsfromtheNatureConservancy.Butasthetechnologydeveloped,itactuallywasthensplitofffromtheNatureConservancy.Butmanyofthestateseitherhadtheirownnatural

heritageprogramwithintheNatureConservancy'spurview,ortheirnaturalresourceagencywouldpickupthatdatabase.JohnKarges[01:16:28]Andnowadays,thenaturaldiversitydatabasethattheNatureConservancystartedisnowsolelyoperatedbyTexasParksandWildlifethroughtheirnon-gameprograminthe,astheNaturalHistory,NaturalDiversityDatabase.Andthat'swherealltherecordsofspeciesofrarityandcommunitiesarekept.JohnKarges[01:16:50]Butinaprivate-landsstate,therearehugeissueswithdisclosureofwhohasthatland,orwheredoesthatrecordreside?Where'sthatrecordfound,onwhoseland?AndsotheParksandWildlifeDepartmentandtheNatureConservancy,backwhenwemaintainedthedatabase,theConservancy,undermytenure,actuallytransferredalloftherecordswehadinthebiodiversitydatabase,thatwecouldshare,meaningthatwehadlandownerpermissionandweknewitwasOKto,to,toprovidetoapublicagency,weactuallytransferredthatinformationtoTexasParksandWildlife.JohnKarges[01:17:27]SoParksandWildlifenowisthecentraldepository.Andtheutilityofthatis,is,therearemanyutilities.Butoneoftheutilitiesis,shouldtherebeapipelineoratransmissioncorridoracrossthelandscape,TexasParksandWildlife,asapublicagency,canprovideinformationtothosewhoareinterestedastowhataretheendangered,orthreatened,orspeciesofgreatestconcernspeciesintheswathofthatpipeline,orintheswathofanewdevelopment.Shouldtherebeanendangeredspecies,therewouldhavetobesomeregulatoryoversightorconstraints,too.Sothat'swhattheNaturalDiversityDatabasedoes,isitprovides,aspubliclyaccessible,aninformationarchiveofwhereorganismsoccuronthe,inthestatethatispublicinformation.JohnKarges[01:18:23]Now,somelandownerssay,"Idon'twantanyoneknowingwhat'sonmyland."AndsotheymaynotevenallowParksandWildlife,orformerlytheNatureConservancy,tocollect,toevengetonthelandtocollectrecords.Ortheymaysignaveryclearlegalformthatsaysyoucancomeontheland,butyouwillnotsharethisinformationwithanybody.Sothere'sadisclosureformthatParksandWildlifehashadtodoinaprivate-landsstateaboutwhetherornottheywereatlibertytodistributerecordsfromsomeone'sland.JohnKarges[01:18:58]Somepeople,andwhat'sreallyananomalyaboutthatispeopleweresoafraidthatarecordwouldbecollectedontheirlandandallofasuddenfederalEndangeredSpeciesActbiologistsand/orregulationswouldshutsomebodydown.And,andsomeofthesamepeoplewouldthensay,"Well,waitaminute,thispipelineisgoingtocrossmyland.Iwantyoutocomeoutandfindanendangeredspecies..."DavidTodd[01:19:18][Laughter]JohnKarges[01:19:22]"Soshutthatdownormakeitgoontheneighborsorwhatever."Andthatreallyis,it'sbeenaninterestingconundrumtowatchinTexas.DavidTodd[01:19:29]Yeah,well,Icanseehowthis,thislifeandcareerhavebeenreallyinterestingand,andcomplexforyou,youknow,certainlywiththeLeonSpringspupfishandalltheaspectsofit,butjustwildlifeandlandissuesinthestate.AndsoI'msogladyou'vemanagedtotellusaboutit.

DavidTodd[01:19:55]Andaswesortofwrapthisup,Iwashopingthatyoumighttellmeifthere'sanythingyou'dliketoaddabout,youknow,yourworkattheNatureConservancyorinnaturalresourcesconservationingeneral,ormaybemoreparticularlyaboutDiamondYandtheLeonSpringspupfish.JohnKarges[01:20:17]Well,gosh,DavidTodd[01:20:19]Somuchtocover.JohnKarges[01:20:20]Yeah,theinterviewtheinterviewisfartooshorttotalkabouteverythingI'dlovetocoverandmanythingsIcan'tevenrememberrightnow.Butyouknowwhatwasprobablymostspecialtomewasgettingtospend30yearshopingtomakeadifference,andthinkingIwassuccessfulatit,incollaborations,andpartnerships,andconservationsuccesses.JohnKarges[01:20:45]PartofmytenurewiththeConservancyoutinwestTexaswasaregionalconservationbiologist.SowhenalandprotectionopportunityaroseandsomeonemightapproachtheConservancyabout,youknow,what's,what'sthevalidityofmyland,andwhat'sthelikelihoodthatIcoulddosomethingtoprotectitforever,likewithaconservationeasement,thenIgottodobiologicalassessmentsoftheland,theecologicalassessments,thecontext,maybespeciessurveysonthere,toinformthelandownerandtheConservancyaboutthevalidityofaneasement.JohnKarges[01:21:19]Andinsomecases,theeasementmightnotbeexactlyalignedtobeingtheNatureConservancy's,butstillsomebodyelse.Soisthereaevenbetterormoreappropriatepartnerforaconservationeasement?OrisitfortheNatureConservancy?And,andthenworkingwithpubliclandstransfers:likewe,theConservancy,transferredgypsumdunestotheGuadalupeMountainsNationalParkaftertheNationalParkServicehadacquiredallthesurroundinglands,kindofensuringthepermanentprotectionwithaboundarywithinanationalparkofgypsumdunes.AndoneoftheneatestcanyonsIgottoworkwithwastheadditionoftheFresnoCanyonRanchforTexasParksandWildlifetoaddtoBigBendRanchStateNaturalArea.DavidTodd[01:22:12]Well,thesearetreasuresandthey'rejustgoingtogetmoreandmorevaluableastimegoesby,andsoI'msogladthatyouandallyourpartnerswereactivetotrytosecurethemforthefuture.JohnKarges[01:22:26]Well,oneofthedilemmas,andI'msureyou'veaddressedthisinotherarenasandaresoawareofit,butthefactthateverybitofconservationlandthat'satleastdesignatedasconservationlandinTexashasbeenare-acquisition.Meaningthatthestate,orthefeds,ortheNatureConservancy,orsomeothernonprofithavehadtogobackand,andacquirethoselandsorprotectthemsomehowwithaneasement,becauseofourprivatelandssituationinTexasandthefactthatwedisposedofmostallofourpubliclandsaswebecameastateintheUnion.DavidTodd[01:23:07]That'sbeenahugechallengetoput,putthegeniebackinthebottle,sotospeak.JohnKarges[01:23:12]Absolutely,yeah.

DavidTodd[01:23:14]Yeah.Well,again,IjustwantedtoemphasizehowmuchIappreciatenotonlyyourvisitingwithustoday,butallyou'vedoneoverageneration.AndIwishyouwellforcontinuedgoodstuff,GoodTrouble.Andif,ifpossible,Ihopeourpathswillcrossinthefuture.JohnKarges[01:23:37]Well,Ilookforwardtoit.IwillalwaysbeinterestedinthebiodiversityofTexastillmylastcogentthought.DavidTodd[01:23:44]Well,well,good.Well,Iknowyou'llhavemanycogentthoughtstocome.You'vebeenveryclearandhelpfultoday,andIwantedtothankyou.JohnKarges[01:23:53]Well,it'sbeenmypleasure.Thankyouforinvitingmetoparticipate.DavidTodd[01:23:57]Youbet.Allright.Well,youhaveagoodday.Andagain,thanksforyourtime.JohnKarges[01:24:01]Mypleasure.DavidTodd[01:24:03]Allright.JohnKarges[01:24:03]Thankyou.