Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 26 NOVEMBER 1936

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1760 Questions,. [ASSEMBLY.] Motor Vehicles Insurance Bill.

THURSDAY, 26 NOVEMBER, 1936.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. Pollock, Grcgory) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

CO"!MO);WEALTH WHEATGROWERS' RELIEF SCHEME.

::Yfr. KANE (Ea.,t Toou-oomba) asked the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock-

" Has any reply been received from the Commonwealth Government to his representations for an extension of the Wheatgrowers' Relief Scheme to dis­tressed growers in Queensland for the current season? "

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICUL'l'URE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock. Barcoo) replied-

" Yes. I am in receipt of a communi­cation from the Commonwealth Govern­ment, the concluding paragraph of which reads as follows :-

' The Government has decided that it is unable to make any funds aYail­able for assistance to wheatgrowers in c-onnection with this seawn's harvest.' '•

:nr. Power.

UNE~!PLOYMENT RELIEF EXPENDITURE ON PROPERTY OF RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIO::-iS.

Mr. MOORE (Aubi_qny) asked the Secre­tary for Labour and Industry-

" 1. In reference to my question of 17th instant. will he have the information relative to expenditure from the Unemployment Relief Fund on pro­perties owned and I or controlled by relig·ious denominations supplied lwforo the end of the session?

" 2. If not, will he supply me with this information before the end of 1936 ?"

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR A~D INDUSTRY (Hon. M. P. Hvnes, J'owns­t•il/e) replied-

" 1 and 2. Owing to the volume of work involved in taking out in detail the actual expenditure on intermittent relief work wages in connection witn denominational schools and churches, it will not be possible to supply the­information desired by the hon. mem­ber before the end of this session, but the gross amount of such expendi­ture will appear in the departmental annual report, which will be tabled to-morrow."

FEDERAL AID ROADS AGREEMENT APPROVAL ACT (FURTHER AGREE­MENT) BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland): I move-

" That the House will. at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirable­ness of introducing- a Bill to authorise the execution b_v the State of Qu0ensland of a draft further agreement between the Commonwealth of Australia and the· State of Queensland in relation to the construction, reconstruction, mainten­ance, or repair of Federal Aid Roads in the said State, and to approve, adopt, authorise, and ratify the said further agreement as finally made and executed between such parties, and for other purposes.''

Question put and passed.

MOTOR VEHICLES INSURANCE BILL

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC 1:':\'­STRUCTION (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer): I move-

,, That the House will. at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committe0 of the Whole to consider of the desirable­ness of introducing a Bill to require the owne"rs of motor vehicles to insure· against their liability to pay compensa­tion on a~..count of iniuries to persons caused by, through, or in connection with such motor vehicles. and for other purposes.''

Question put and pa-ssed.

Racecou.rses Acts and Other [26 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1761

RACECOURSES ACTS AC\D OTHER ACTS A!VIEND:'.1ENT BILL.

l~JTL\TIO:\.

Tl-1o SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC 1N­STRGCTION (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Br• mer): I move-

" That the House will, at its present sitting, rcsoh-c itself into a Committee o£ tho Whole to consider of the desir­a blcnc•s of introrlucing a Bill to amend ' The Racecourses Acts, 1923 to 1930,' and othc-r Aet3 in certain particularr;, <.tncl LJr other purposes.:'

Question pu~ and passed.

b:TTL\TIO~ 1x Co~niiTTEE.

(llr. flaw:un1, Bunuula, in the chair.}

Tk· SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC 1?'\­STHLCTION (Hon. li'_ A. Couper, Flr11n.er) [10. 36 a. m.] : I move-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced tD amend ' The Racecourses Acts, 1923 to 1930,' and other Acts in cer­tain particulars, and fur otlter pur~ pusc-:.''

can a.;;':inre :,.ou, J\ir. I-Ianson, that I have VPl',Y ll1UCh lJlCaP.Ul'O ind0cd in asking the C:01nmittc(' lo agree to th8 introduction of this HlP<Jf'Ul'P. l-Ion. mernbPrS "\Yill rcrnem­ber that EOille tirne last vear a ro7al coln­m1~.-·CH1 \V;16 appnintPd by His E~ccllcncy i he Govc~-r:or to inquirc-

(i.) Into the g~ncra! o)lcration ancl effect of--

·(u) The Totoli-rrtor Restriction Acts. 18~9 to 1902,

(Z,) Tlw Racecourses Acts. 1923 to 1930,

(c) The Hacing Regulation Amend-

(ii)

ment Acts, 1930 and 1931, Llncl any other Act:;, law~. or regu­lations. ads. mattero, or things deal­ing with or relating to horse raring n1~d beth:1g and wagering gr,ncrally; Into y,·hat i;.; cornmcnlv knovi'Il as -"tnrt1ng prir:(' betti~g ~'n an;v event nr COlldn~cncy andjot· re\ating to n nv hor~c o:· oLhcr race and the n1Ct hod n nd n1anncr bv which it is conducted: ·

(iii.) Into betting and wag(~ring gpncrally on ~ny CYCnL or continzencv and/or r ·latl:rlg to any horse or other race in so far as the t3ame is carried on '"itbout the limits of anv racecourr-e and/ OJ..' C'Ontrar.Y to any Act or l:.nv;

(iv.) Tnt.o all other matters and thing-s concerning horse racing, its conduct, managcn1cnt, and control;

(v.) 1nto any other matter or thing rFrer.tl:v Gr ind.irertly concerning or affecting or relatina to the abovP into which the co~nmission is of opinion th<J.t inquiry should be made;

and \Yithout in anv wav lirrtitino- the scope of the inquir:·, ~ o

(vi.) Into whether it is desirable that ~rncndnu:nt to any :~isting statutory 1aw, o:.· furt.her provJsion bv statutory law sboulcl in the opinion of the comrn1.,sion be ill(H1e.

The t. ··nus of reference of that cormnieeion \Yf'l'P fuH and co1nplete, thr~ cointnission 'vas r-j yc•n cycry opportunity of making the neces­sary inycstigation~, and the appointment of

1936-3 K

that commission gaye satisfaction to the conununity generally.

There are within the community, and there were at the time of the appointment of that cmnn1id~ion, people with diYcrgent views on manv m a ttcrs affecting racing. and many contradrctorv statmncnts were n1ade con­cerning- the' object of the appointm••,nt of !hi- roval cormni,sion, but the sober-mmded, tlw in.dustriou,, and the earnest citizens applauded the mYcstiFation that was to be n1aclc. In a corrnnurntv tSuch as 'Ye han~ 1t

to be 0xpcctcci that the commiSRion app~Jint1~d ,,·ithout COl!llllCllt; and

connnf'!1t th·1t wa:) n1ost heurd-b0rau::e "as r1 ·sired that it ehoul-d b heard-

8lld 1nade n., cot's;del·able amount of no:se at ihc time. ''""' that lbc appointment of thc Ro~val Connn-i::;;sion on Racing ',~·.Js all cndca­,-ouJ· on the part of the GovPrnnH:nt to f'·,capP thf'il' Ol\ n n'spousibility, that thc~­''~'Pl'f~ not g .tllF-' to face tlH' situution that ba(l arisen in this Stab' and that thcv were pr:tbng tho ·pousibilitv on the cOu1n11~-~inn of OYC'r t11e whole thi11g nncl grttiug rid of a YCr.v ugly ,,tatc of affairs. There w l'C r ·oplP '"ho said f1 uite openl:l i hat the Government w~rc g·oing to hide behind the royal comrnis,;:ion when the r0port c·mr' in-that lw the ap)loint.mcnt of the· cornmis.~ion the GovPnnncnt de?,ired to do l:othing Phc 1Jnt t~) she1ve the '"·hole issue. There wcr(; people aleo who said that the Go\"Prnincnt's action \Y3,S a subtc-'rfuge and ·' sho.rn_ and thd. the cornmis,ion itsclf­t h0 docnmcnr·--wn.c; a docunH'nt Yoid of de.:'f'rlf'.V· --th<1t it '"as rcallv an in~trumcnt of intrigue. Thf'rc were othfT prople-·-and, as a matter of fact. 1 think thcrP was one ncws­pa)lt'r-that went so far as to so.v that the r0pnrt Y 1"1 written hPforc the Con1n1ission ,~·ils i;;:~n.-.d: that r-o far ,~-f're the GoYf'rn­rncnt :;.teepcd in this business that they '"·ere conniyi11g at tb-ir1g~ of that ~art rathc'r thrrn f1('ing- th0 rcrrl j,:-,u('. Everywhere one 'vent. particularly in cirelP.s that on8 n1ight expect to h:~ 1ntPrf':::tf'~t in this con1rni~sinn. one \VRS

confl'onterl w;lh tbc statement. "\Vhat. vou onzht to ih -when ;,~nu arc going to lic~nf.!( betting-.;- hops is so and-so and sllch-und-r:;uch.'' Fro71 all parh wl1crc pe0111e vvcrc sufficiently ~olf-1ntcrcsb·d t11at :::ort. of propnganr1a \Yas notably ali,-c. All tho'e people who were ~o ;:ure that this corrn11ission was fixed for a Jl'-LrtiC'ular purpose, n11 tho;p peopln whc had an inside knowledg-e-tho'e Artful Dodgers of the game-wPrc so sure of what w .. s going to happen that tlwv had all thinrr~ rrrang-cd in Rch·ance. In' the faces of all thoc' people who doubted the honest.c' of this Govcmmcnt and believed that. tb~ ~.vholc thin,.Q' wa-) rcn11v a sharn ancl an intrig-ue. :hercfore, I~ ha Ye Yerv much pleasure indeed in throwing the report of the royal con1111i~sion. and asking ho1.v lt rrH~a;;;ure-.;; up ·with their preconceived notions a.3 to what \YDS to be done by that cmn­n1is':;jon.

belieYe that the con1n1ission did an excellent job. Kohociy could read the rcw,rt '' ith:mt. bPin~- et ruck bv the fact that. the fir~fling't';; WC'l'(. Yirtually · un~lnitnous. There wns a diYcrgcncn of y}eV\.,, but only upon or'c ic-sne; and npon that issue the- 111inority report nys that the evidence fa,:ourctl the ,-j ""- t ·ken by the majority report. That being the case. one can sa·y that conuni::­slon':::: rPport WDfi Yirtuall:'l un.animou.:;; on the things thnt 1·eally 1natter. I haYe v0ry Uluch pleasul'P. then. in Reeking tho conrur­rcncc of this l'ommittce in th~ tnl'n~urc the

Hon. F. A. Cooper.]

il.762 Racecour8es Acts and Other [ASSEMBLY .1 Acts Amendment Bill.

introdnr\ion of which I am moving, which \r!Jl, I can assure hon. rnernbers, cover .1lmost cvorv recommendation made bv that 1o:val cotnnlis~ion. ..,

:\fr. Gom·nEY MonGA"l : 'What we want to know ie whether it will be administered aitcl' it ha:-; been carried into effect.

The SECRET IRY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRlTCTIO~ : Of course, here it comes ! Here the doubting Thomas. the <amo

doubted the honcstv of the Govern­thP llJatlcr of the 'appointment of :·mnmis· i:JrL (Oppo it ion l:wghtor.)

Th, CILUR:\IAN: Order! (Continued iiltt'rruptlon.)

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC I'-'­snn-c.TIOK: I ·::tv that that is the same ,-oiu' ~bat l~n·!gg<•rcJ, whrn the corrnni~,Ion wa:-> appointc·~l, that t 1wrc ·wa~ no business ;n But tlH'l't' i no onr: rJO\Y who \Yill

th,'li tlH'r""~ vva~ bnsine;:;.::; in it; the j., .cbout to b~ accornpiisllf'd. Y~et the

"lwn. ntc:nb fot Da:bv sav~.;. "If You are ~o:nt2.· to r1o jt, I hojlc ~ou n1t,~n~ to do r r.,) ,~

~.1e. Coo, HFY :'vloRG.\"1: I nm so doubtfuL

The PEC'HET.\.RY FOR PL'DLIC IN­~TH lJCT1f0~ ·. Of course the hou. rncrnbcr for D dbv i..:; doubtful. I-Ic wa::; nc;-cr suro :'! cYlt aJ;ytl1ing in the vrhoh' of l1is life t

1~ ,]" t!-lat like the average racing rnan :;;ure of tho Yvinner until after

I c -:.n assurL~ hi111 that hl:-3 in th0 HU1tLt'r of rnnnv

n'' further out than nre hi's in thi.. (Laughter.)

:VIr. GoDFHEY llfoHGA": I hope vou arc ;~,Lt. (Hcne\recl 1.(1ngltter.) V

The SECHETARY FOR PG'BLIC IN­STR lJCTIO :\' : If the hem. nwmber wanh to make a sure bet-and I am no tipster, but I will give this tin before tipst0r ~ arc cntirr:l:v abolished-I ach'i'c him to back this Bill to rlo thu ·:.ork that it is intended to do. And, 'bt'lievo nw. that is a tip that you cannot always get! It js one that is right fron1 the horse's mouth. (Laughter.)

It will be neccs3axv to arnend n1ore than one Act if \Vf~ arc tvo deal vvith tho whole matter in a conv('nicnt \Vav. Therefore a nurnber of A~ts Y,'ill be a.r~1endecl ~so as' tt' make the recult a compkte "·hole. I do not intend to argue tho variou::; rccolntncmda­tions that have b{~en n1ade by the royal commissiou, but we shall have an opportunity on the second rcadmg stage to argue tho Lroad pr1nriple.3 of thP nlCa:":ure.

Orw of thn first things that the• Dill deals v·ith is conr2ling. Betting hns been per~ rnittccl at coursing n1cctings fur :::omc years, JJcrmission having been given for it bv the Trca~urer in the 1\foore GovPrnn1ont~ the la!.' Hon. \\Taltcr Henrv Barnes. That p·~rnlls~iou \Va~ not intcrfcurt d \V~th \vhen the prc.oent Governrnent wor€' returned to po\ver. Therefore, as Letting at particular coursing meetings has been allowed for ~orne vear.s and it is recommended by the roval 'com­mission that inquired into tho 111attor, it is proposed in the Bill to legalist· betting thercat. The Bill also proposes that the coursjng authorities shall appoint a con~ troliing committee, and that in the city of Brisbane there shall be 104 coursing meetings a year, or an average of two a week. I wi'h to draw particular attention to the fact that tin-hare racing will not bo permitted

[Hon. F. A. Coope1·.

in any shape or form and also that coursing of any kind will not bo permitted at night.

Mr. :\IAHEH: \Vhat about coursing meet­ings out.;;ich) of tbo InPtropolitan area?

The SECHETARY FOH PUBLIC I~­STRlJCTHJX: Thoro will be provision for coursing· meetings outside the metropolitan area just as there is provision for horse racing outside the city to-day. I can assure the hon. gentleman that, that matter will be adequately ]n-ovidod for, bnt the main thing in this connection is coursing within the rnetropolitan area. ThPre arc Yery few coursing meetings outside Brisbane. just as there are ycry few race meetings outside Bri:-'bane. \Ye cn.n, hv regulation, control cour,.-;,ing oub:lde Brisba.ne as "\veil as control it ,,.i1 hin the city.

:\Ir. MAIIER : There arc a lot of race tnecting-;; outside of Brisbane.

The SECRETARY FOR FUBLIC I::\· STHl}CTIOX: I know that, and that they arc all controlled, bat they clo not amount to t\YO ::::_ \n~ck, as they do in Brisbane.

:\Ir. Pr.c;XKJ,TT: Are you going to prevent trotting ulcotillgs at night"

Tlw SECHETARY FOR PC:13LIC I::\'­STRG'CTIOX: \Ye am preventing trotting tnPotings e.t night. r:rhoro will bo no trotting lllPt-'ti1~g at night. I ~uggf'St that hon. mern­bC'r \Yait for 1112 to rleal with the Y ~trious uHtl-tC'r"' as I con1e to thern.

There haYc been requr.,L~ fron1 various quurtcrs that Lookn1akers should bo allowed to or)cra-to ~~t ath!otic mceting·sJ and thoro­for~~ nrovision i:;; nFlrlc in the Bill that appro~cd clubs may hold athletic meetings in the daYtin10 .at which liccn:-:e·l bookn1akel'~ ~Yill be p~rnlitted to operatt:. Rnt thc:v n1ust be purely athletic tnoet.ingsJ they rnust not be matches or games. Those athletic meet­irws ma\ bo held on days approved by the ~,.Iilli-;ter, ~uch rlays not to include Christmas Day. Goocl Frida:~~. or Anzac Day.

Mr. :\feLLER: Does that apply to "bingo" s1:ovvs?

Tlw SECI\ET.\RY FOR PUBLIC 1::\'­STRLCTI(J:\T: A "binrro" ~how is a garno, not a sport. If hon. me;nbers opposite have bf'Pll prc-c!lt at " bingo" games I doubt wl1etlcer they have seen any betting there.

:\Ir. Con:·m:Y }foRGAN: Oh!

Th2 SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC 1::\'­STH UC'TIO~\': I hftvo not kllo\nl of a n1 ·.n':; S\Yingin.g a bag· at a "bingo" gan1e, n!thouuh l1o:-:. nH:n1b~rs oppos·ite may kno1Y of it. ~·

~lr. Bn._\:In: If a \"C you LGcn t.lH'l'''?

ThP SECIU~T,\RY FOR Pf'HLIC 1:\­STHrC'TIO':\: Yes. and s0 ha'c the lion. IllPml:er b<>cn there. (Laughter.)

Tlte JF'-xt r;rinc1p!G to be dealt \Vith } t!1' betting tax. It used to b(~ 3d. in cu rain enclosures and ld. in other f'ndosurcc;. Tl1c Go...-ernrnent that pro-.:cdod this GovcnJJ:H.·. Ht raised that tax to 1::-. in CPrtain endo::)Ul'''S t 1;d 3d. in other C'nclo;;;urc~. Thev a1~o shifted the responsibility for Uw p::t_ynlc]jt of the tllx from the shoulders of lho g·cmtlcnwn known as the punter to the bookmakf'r.

Mr. GoDFHEY MORGAN: No, the other way about.

The SECRETARY FOR PUB.LIC I.:'\­STRG'CTIU:'\: That is so, from the book· ruakor to the punter. That merely sho\':' a!l I know about it, and the few taxes I ha Ye

Rac~courses Acts and Other [26 NOVEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1763

r:aicl ! (Lnught0r.) This Bill l'PYt'l'~C:;; that po'"lition, and df'crcPs that bettlng ticket,.; i~-·ncd in certain enclosures shall be rPc1uccd from b. to 3d .. "nrl in otlwr C'nclosnn from 3d. to ld. It furth<'r nroYidrs that tax shall be paid not by the punter but tlw bookmakel'.

Tlwre will be " tax on betting· tir!,ds at coursing meetings of ld. a bet. and a ta\: 011 betting tickets issued at athletic meet­ings also of ld. a bet.

The next provision of the BiH is that "·hich establislws the Rorkhamnton ,Jockev Club as a principal club, and aL"o ."-Ct3 out that the Rockh,mpton ,JockeY Club shall be so reC'ogniscd by the othC'r club~ in Quet>nsl;1 rrd. Tht> evltlt•ut_·e Uu tlii::- qit·~~;;;tiu;: .;;.ulnnii tPd to tlH' com1niRsion "\YaR con­~1d('rPr1 to l)Q ilcfinit.0. cornpletP, and <"'Oll­c1nsiYf', and it-., rpromniPHdation on th(~ point was fairly stronv.

In order to satisf~v th(~ inqnir~v of the holl. n101nbcr for A1bert-anc1 to rotnOYC' anv drnbt in his mind as to whnt hrc ma1· b.r able to do in the futnn~~-I wi~h to announcf' that thcrrc will be no night troiting. I hope this will not be too mnch of a .-l>ock to him. })nt I r<"n n."."-UTC' hint that Hl,c-ht trot~ ting will not bP a11o,Yecl in this Rta.tt• r-xr0pt at the on(' annual n1cPtlna: of a uy ~ l1ow sof'ic't~~ thnt n1av desire to run irotting cYents ut flight. as it doe..;; no\Y in c-onjn"tC­t;on \vith it;;: annual sho-..v. but no hr·ttin·.; of o.ny kind v.-hat·'\'01' will he ~11ov-, d. BC'ti-ing. rn!l only takr nla"f' on a rf'COf!llis. :l rar'f'Courc:;f', on a conr~-in~: cour."-('. or r~11 an athlf'ti'' rmn~f'. Gf rour~c. it v ill l1e hn11o~­siblP to b0t on a sho\Y!2.TOnnd. eithC'r 111 thc> davtintr or nig-ht tin10.

-:\Jr. \.f.\ HEn: But trottinQ' can bP eoll­cluetccl?

Tlw RF.\RETMlY FOR PL:B.LIC I":-f\TRrCTTOC\': Yes. Trotting is ahe,d,v proYidrd for U1H1Pr the Rae0cour~c;;; ... \cL

\Y0 JlO~\- C'OITlf' to tht• YC'X0d OUf'f:tion, th:•t dealing \Ylth \Yhnt i:- k110\\-ll n~; th0 :::;.P. ~-Lops. Tl1at thls narticn1~Y n~~):'ri" of tlJln--:~ 1na.y be properly cl(a,lt \Yith ~" cn:llmr:tdc'd ITv t~H' corninl"'ion it i~ tlJ" of the m_C''1S1UC' io fnrthrr dd1nr :1 '' n1aec.'' From th0 tinH' whrn 1 \YFJs a Yf'rY 1ittlP fellow until thP pn'sf"nt tinH'- -n~1d ihnt i .... a long time. I can n,s.;;nr0 Yon~--h_\Y court-> haYe iug-gl0d -wlt}l th0 subject of ''"hr1t i"' a. " nlarc." For sorr10 reason or othrr a.l1 the lcat·nrrl people of the >Yorld have not lwcn able to ·define it eonmkteh. I hPli('Y0 in tl1c n~eac.:urr that I am ask11Jg· t1w Cornmjttce for authoritv to bring- tiO\'nl the u1tin1ate is Tf'ac1Jrd and a " plac"" will b(~ actwrll:,. clPilnitely. nncl completd~, rlefinNl. ~othing ha' b0en left ont in tl1e rkfi1Jitin''· lmt if we ha,·e omitted anYthing; th" Bill pnJYir1r~ tl1at. th0 CoYcrnor in Council 11ta \' pnt it in. (Lanvhter.) Ro there is no nossibi1it:v Y.-}wten•r of ayojding· that tbillg knovvn f'l s a '·place."

'Yh. GODFREY "vfORG.\0:: \Yait unril rlw la.w,n:'rs g-et to work on the dE'fi11ition.

Tbc SECRETARY FOR P1~RLIC TX­STRCCTIO~: I know tlw hon. mr·mbp;· ha~ a knowledge of a " placC'," for tbcrc j~ snch a thing as a, p]ac....- bf't.

::\Ir. GODl'REY ::\IoRGAK: \Yhat is a ;1lac<' het?

The SEC:RETARY FOR Pl'BUC IX­STR1;CTIO::-J: Do not ask me! It is uot defined in the Bill. (Laug-hter.) I onlY know of those things that arc defined i11

the Bill. I know this. however. that if the hon. member for Dalbv and I WNC Tllll­

ning a race I should b'c a o;ood place because I kno\v bo \vould get a\Yay ;u lead. (Renewed laughter.)

In order to tighten 11p the regulation,< to pro.-ent S.P. shops it is further JH'OYiderl in the Bill that necessary sections to pr<'Yent the adyertising of bettin.g shop-; ~lFtll be inserted in the la-w. That rwoYi~iO'l j_, already in ono of our Ach. but.. n11fort.u· natcl,,, it has been hclcl bv high legal anthorit-.,. tl1at that is not snfliciPnt. I c1n a~surc ]~on. l1lf'Tnbcr"' that this Eiil vil1 -prn-,~iclc a suffi"ienc-, of cnnctn1ent to th0 conlpleb=' --topp[tgc of tlle of betti~~g hoE~€'.::.

The ne\\·spapcn. which on Tuesdays pub­)i,h the oclcls on horses running on Saturcl<t~', will 1'ot b;• allowed to nuhlish stwh cdck [ C'i1n quite undPrstand t11at sorue peop1~· will not b0 ab1c to" appreciate IYlP: a tJaper on Tucsr1a:. should uot pnblish that '' l"v:Iorp:an Side" jr, at 4 to 1 for a llart1cu1al !'RCC'. But whv ~houl(l v•.·c \Yant to loJO\V en Tnesc1ay that U particular hor~o 1~ at 4 to 1 "·hen 'c'r shall not be ablr' to l1ack i.hat horse ti1l \YC rro to the conr~c on Sat nrday ·~ What is the iood of knowing- the price m1til we g0t to th(' racPcour:.:;c -tPe only Jl1a-ce where we shall be allmYrd to bPt?

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HoME .-\FF.\TRS: }1 P J1as not a nricc until hP 1.:;

backer!. The REC'RETARY FOR lTflLIC ll\­

STR1'("J'[OX: The St•c1·Plan- for IIca'th and I-Tomc Affair::: kno -;·s sonH~t11ino· of the g-ame than I do. (Laug-htc'l'.) It quite rig-hi· that a hot·sc has not a pncc until he is bar·kcd. I belieyc too. that nltbo1'(d1 J':an)T a hor~2 i" b'leked it h '" r:nt n pric·<' c.-en then. bnt that is !,,· the ,,n. ThP JH_•w;;;papers will uot. be n1lowPd in publish the oriels prior i.o a ra~c nw~tino:. h!lt thc-.1' will be able to publish nfter the race \Yhat the odds wPrc on the rr1c·ccourst'.

Tl1P adYPrtiselnrnts of tip~tf'r.s rrn: abwlnteh· pro!Jib;tcd in PY<'r · sha]1C a"cl fonn. Thr a~tonishing thing is that thE'~,-, people llfC' abh~ to 1nakr- anltP a g-ood li,·ing out of thP 'let of arlYising other pcoplL' wl1at to bnek. Their n1ag-u::tnin1iiy ;~ astoni:.;;hlng. brcau~e if theY kept th0ir '' goo(l thing-s., to tlH•nlsPlYPs thC~v f'nu1d g·o to tlH' ra.c'COllrS(' and g-Pt the 1o!lrcc~t po~slb1e odds and hccomc wc::~Hhv rwoplc in a short snat e of tirnc. Thrse peo l0 c1isson1inatr-" jnforn1atlon to th0 nub1ic-at n price. It is held that cwn this has led in n, certain dircdion to t.})e rorru1;t:on of rneing-. The effort to get hold of inc ido infot;natloll. the effort to get sorncthillf( right from the stable. ha' led to tho fact that peoplE~ who arc generally -wholf'-POuled ill the n1atter of ra-cinp·, the tra-inn'."- ai' l iorkc~:~. haYe been to a ce-rtain r-·dent tttrnccl from the right path in the matter of ~:·i,-ing infonnation hccausp of ihe Ptlcotn·ag-enlC'llt-· shall I sa,·-of thc>r people to lr•t ihr•m haYf' the "oil" earlier than thPY -..vou1d l11.YC' 1t. For that reason it is desin•d. and 1 his Bill will ~cP that tip9.h'r:;;' advPrti~enlcnt~ anf1 th·• giving 'of tivs jn that way arc ab olntely prohibited.

I La,~,: 1~ot the ~li.glJtc;;:t doubt thC' l'ro­vi::.\.ns I have alrPadv cntnneraL•cl -wiil b(' o£ an innncnse adYant~\gC' to racin,u:. R.--,cing will gPt back to \Yhat it was ~~c<.n·~ ap:o. B:.· reason of the provi.sions of tl1is Hili th. race ntceting in the future yyjJl be \\·hat

Hon, F. A. Cooper.]

1764 Racecourses Acts and Other [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

the race meeting was in the past. Thoro ayo going to be additional race n1ectings tnmughout the State. I am advised that in the larger centres down the coast where race _lnPebngs \VCre held years ago, no race moetmgs are held to-day by reason of the fact the S.P. shop has done so much damag·e to racing that places that used to bave three or four race meeting-s in the vear do not have any now. I hope and tri,st and bdievo this Bill will restore countrr racing to "·hat it v-.as prior io the advent ill all its glory of the S.P. shop. We look for· ward to its being the case'.

It ·~ill be necessary, however. for some ·control to be exercised; and so that control rna~ be propcrl:v exercised. there is pO\VC'r in the Bill to make regulations to go,·crn tlw Ddmi:;;sion to racccoursPs and to all part~ of racc~·oursc:o;. There is nowcr to sec that aIl racccmxrsf"s pro,·idc acco':Ylmodation that the Govcrruncnt think is ncccssarv on raCG('OUI'."CS.

rrhere is al~O power by regulation to allOT\' the GoYf'rnmcnt to sav \Yhat totalisaL rs-~ what kind of totulis~ttors and whe.t denomina· tion of totalisators-shall be used upon race­courses and the various types of course.

To rnake the rnatter as sure as po~~ib!P and to do e,·er:, thing thnt is humanly po"ible to see that this Bill >vill have a complete

llCCC'SS. it contains power to J)rC'vcnt tho conveying- of information therefrom jn respect of hors:• rac·ing.

I Jl<'<'d hardly tell this augu-t Assembly that there arc Jo-clay places where informa­ti.on i::; taken as to thjngs that .are bap11en­in~ on the racccnur-;c for th(~ fujdn,ncc of tht~ [lL'oplc ontsirlo that conr"'· I b<'licve that prior to a race the betting odrh are COJl­

,-e~:-('d~ and th2 riders: tJ1o ,,-pjght"', altera­tions jl1 the \YPights. and the barrier TJOSi­tions~-variOUS inforrnation of that kjnd is carri(•d out of thP racerour:-:.<~ and dis­SPtninatcd through tlw StatP. It will be '"" uffPncc to ha YC' any place from which m eh infonnation b di.;:~crnlnated. It will hn impo.c.:"'ib1e foJ" thni· inforrnation to he g·ivPtJ. hccall~(~:> there \vill he no nlaco fl·orll ·which it c.1n be giYon. ~or will nn~· pt'rson he~ rtllo'"' eel to convov such infonnat~o11 fron1 tJ1P raceco1n·sp to ··an:r such plnc: or p 1ace:". ~ can a.·:~nrc hor1. 1nen1bcr:_;: that CYPryth:ng H being clone b.v rhi;:; Bill ~o to contl'ol matters that it will be impoooiblc for the infonnabon to get from the course to out-

ru~~l if by any chance it dons get out will be no place that will be a. legal

place for that information to be taken t:-. :\fr. GODFREY MoRGA~: \Yill wircle''

broadcasting ~tations be lookPd upon as sucll pln-c~"'?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IX­STHUCTIO)i: I unclertsand that that matter may be within the control of the racillg clubs. If they like' to give pernlis­sion to wirelc<s broa dca,sting stations, that is the clubs' O\Vll busjncss.

The PRDITER: The clubs could prevent the gi,·ing of facilit.il'S at. racccour.~es for broad­<'a:;ting pnrpo~t~s.

ThP SECRETARY FOH PUBLIC I:\'­STRC::CTIO~; That is the mco club's own businPss. The air cannot be stultified merelv b_v pa "iHg an Act. ·

There is n further provjsion to prevent belting in hote!.s. This is generally recog­nised as an e.-il that should be put JowH. and an honest atten1pt i8 being rnadc in

[Hon. Ji'. A. Cooper.

this Bill to put it down. Previously the law was that it had to be pro.-ed in a court of law that the licensed victualler actually had knowledge that betting was taking place in his hotel, and if this could not be done there was no prosecution. The Bill proYides that he will have to prove that he had no know­ledge and that he had no means of knowin5 that betting was taking place in his hotel. It thus will mean that to give him the rncans of knowing it will only be necessary for a pnlicernan or a cjtizen to point out that lwtting is taking place on his property. He, therefore, will have the means of know­ing ".nd be responsible. I can aBsure the Connnittee tllat I believe that the provisioa in this Bill will cm·er the situation com­pletely.

:\Ir. ~.I mER: Hear, hear!

Th" SECHETAHY FOR PUBLIC IX­STRUCTTO"i: A further provisioH in the BilL •,vhich '·,ill be dealt with fully at a later stage·, is that no threatening, abusive, or insulting \Yards arc to bo allowed to be used in anv conncction-eith('r in \Yrit.ing, printing, pOsting up, placardcd, or painted up in auy vi--ay.

There is a further prov;sion in the Bill that will deal-ancl I b~licvo cleal p{fPctivelv -vvith pos~iblc leakage of inforr11ation 1 tha't is. confidential information that is the sole property of the• CovcrninenL I bf'lieYe thP p:·o'>"i,·ions in the Bill will bP mfficicnt to C'OYer snch contingencies.

Mr. Bn,\KIJ: ~\r•• the T'rr-'s to be pre­vei,ted from publishing " Bill bdorc the Bill is in th House?

The Sli;CHETARY FOR PUBLIC I"'i'­STRUCTIO.\': Its provisions cover that.

J GaYc gi,·cn hun. n1Cn1ber::: a rough out­line of the Bill and I do not desire to arg-ue the n11.ttPl" lw1·e. Thc·re j~ another stagp cd which it can bQ debated. At Jlr-,sent I "'ck the pcnni s'on of ihe Committee to introduee into the llou~e a Rill coYerinQ' in detail the matter T ha·;c outlined. \\'hen \;·0 arriV(' at the sr~cond rc1 ding .:;tagt~ can discws the broad principles and argue for and a~;ct1n.;;,t t11Pl1l. 1 content Ill~v::;elf now \\ ;th ~6v~J 'S. nn oL:tllnP of iho cornplct·c Bill and liavr' ycry n1u-ch plea,uro indeed iu n10Yin~­tho rc.solutlcm.

Mr. MA T-IER (!T'f'sl Morrton) rl1.5 a.m.l: From what the JYiinistcr raid this morning the Go.-ernmeut appear to ha .-e accepted the majority of the recommendations of the royal com1nission H1at was appointed to inquiro into this .-exed question of racing and all the fac!ors associated ,_-ith it such a' off-thc­cour"o betting. tho betting tax, tho control of ra.cing. the publication of ra,cing jnforrnation. and so on. The great Inrrjorjt;- of th0 pc•op](' haYe not been satisfied with the conditions that ha.-e obtained recently, and off-the­couJse betting has hindered the successful opm'ation of racing clubs. A little whilf) ago the Townsyillo Race Club found difficultv in attracting enough Pl'Op!e to their meetings to lnakc then1 a success. rrhere vvorc only about 100 patrons ut ono merting, \Vhich was rea­sonably well endowed with prize money, and the great number of people who would ordinarily have attended stayed away and ene;aged in betting in the shops, based on information that was telephoned or broadcast from the course. If such conditions arc allowed to continue the doom of horow racing is inevitable. Horse racing is a grand

Racecourses Acts and Other [26 NOVEMBEB.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1765

sport. I do not know of anything fmer than to sec twcntv beautiful a,nlnrals contesting every inch of the g-round OYCT tho course. It h·as been rightly called " The Sport of Kings.'' but it has been degraded by certain actions, and is being con11nercialised in an undcsil'ab1e rnanner.

The Government propose to do many things, first of all to legalise coursing and betting on cour~,ing events, and provide for a definite nurnbr:r of meetings each year. This is to be governed by a comrnittcc of control drawn frorn Yarious coursing clubs. It seems reawnable a! o to allow betting on athdetic eYentc such as foot-running, so long a' it is properly controlled.

The rednction of tbc betting tax will be apprPciated bv all persons ;vho patronise the racecoursC': The tax of 1s. on cverv bet was Yery heaYy, and 11enalised those· "\vho bet in a small way. It was of little con­scqncnce to men who wagered £50 or £100 on 11 horse. but to a man making a bet of 10s. or £1 it was no small amount. parti­cnlarlv if he- had to pay 6s. or 10s. in betting· tax dnring an afternoon. It \vac; all right if he was fortnn11tc, of course, but all of us who l1av0 heen on rarcconr:'H's knc''" that the run of lnrk does not 11lwa vs hold. Bv the time the small hettor P11VS the fee to enter the course. and the betting tax collected from him by the bookmakers, he must lose unk~,~ hn ha::;; a vPrv succc:-sful ·r1a v. EYen if he balances on his ·dav's betting- OJ;eratimn. he is still out cf pocket to the e'<:tcnt of perhaps £1, a.ncl tho avcrag·e man who goes to thc races cannot afford to lose that sum. It is mil~· right that this Yery hcavv impost, which I think h2 s had the effect of keeping small bettors 11way from the racecour,es. and helped to ccntrilmte to the increase in the number of S.P. shop patrons, shonld be redncecl.

2\Tr. "'icLE'.N: '\Vho intr·oduced the ls. tax?

1\Ir. l\IAHER: That is immaterial at the present morn,'nt. Thf' point is th11t it has heen fonnrl to operate harshlv on the' small hettor. and it bas 11 detr·i'11cnta l effect on 11or~0 rarinU" £:;en0rally because of the large number~ who' :::;tav avvav from the course lx•rnns0 of it T1~C' rarl;rg· clubs jnevitab]v feel th0 effecj,,,_ I think th11t tbe bona fide nncl \iVPll conduct0rl racing C"lubs should be cncmnac"ccl bv the GovernmPrlt, and all facilitiee should be provided to enable pcr~ons \Vl1o annrPciatc the sport of horse racing to ath•nd the rourf':e~. By that n1.cans help is given not only to tho race clubs nndPr prorwr cnntro1. but also to hor~e owners. aml an enormous number of people

-ho. dircct1~- and indirectly. ohtnin a liveli­hood from the turf. The ro,rJnction of the tax from h. to 3d. will, I am sure. be widch apnrPciaterl bv tht•so \Yho attend the rour:~f's. The bookrnaker \vil] not appreciate the imposition on him. but I think that in the fin;ll anolv,si, tlw boo'<makor comes off lwttn than tlic majority of punt,rs.

GOYERX;\fE~~T (Laug·hter.)

The PRE1IlER: that.

I-Ic•ar. hear ~

There is no donbt 11hout

Mr. "'YL\HER: The bookmaker who sticks closcJv to his book and works it out on a strict·~ boolnnaking basis can hardly lose.

The Sr:cnE·r.mY FOR HEALTH AKD HoME AFFAIRS : If he does not keep to his book he become" a punter.

"Ylr. ::VIAHER : The tendency is for men \vho take on bookmaking to have a stron\\er instinct than the average man for tabng risks with monev.

The SECRET,\R~ FOR HEALTH AKD Hmm AFFAlRS: I have not met manv of them who wou1d take a risk on the price of a horse, all tbe san'lc.

2\Ir. MAHER: It is h11rd for such men to resist the temptation to give £50 or £~00 11 chance on a horse that. on the specwl mfor­mation they gl't in their calling, is belieYcd to ha Ye 11 great \\ inninll' chance. Although a rnan ntig-ht ~tart out With !he stnc?rc Int~n­ti(>n of sticki"x to his book m all hrs betting operarion:-;. thL' tnnl}Jt,ation d:.::cs arise. for h~tn to n.s;o;umc t11( role of punter. rrha t IS where llHl!l~ a boobnab,r h11s fallen. If 11 man mak~s up his book strictly it would be only in f'Xtraord1naJ·v {'ases that he would lose; nncl cvPn then the ca8es would be very rare in which he lost any coEsiclerable snm. If thf'l'e is fairh free betting the C,cokmaker •• Uf=-ually the ,~ictor on the day's operations.

The PRDllFR: It is H'l'Y seldom that h" has to walk bomc from tile races. I have never see11 it.

Mr. ::'vlAHER: I know of one or two. In fnct. tlwv clirl not walk. they rnn. There v·,:Js a hot pursuit.. (Laughter).

The~ PRE:_IER: l was not rcf0rring to the '.·. e!shrr~.

)fr. ::\L\.HER: Happily, under present conditions. th1-1t ]., 1 Yerv nnc tll1ug. In fact. one of the things that astonish _me in thc conclnct of betting operatwn~ JS the extn'nH' ho!1e.~tv di.spla.-\·rd by the rncn :vho

'P, tl-,n ,h:lrl,hntH' of the sport-thut 1 bnokm ;1 kPr en tlw one hand nnd the

bc11- '1'"' on. the (·ther. To D'lP the f'xtra­orclinarv sense of honour on the part of both b()t>kln1\cr'i a~,,-1 h' :tor." i·~ rf'lnark~ble vvhPn \Y(' cpJ·~id::r the rnorrnou~ _-;,un~c::; of rn~ne:v that c·:-:.Jt-:ge har··h in bcttlll£{ opcration3 ,._ ithdul a :::trnkP of tEe 1wn. 111

onlinnrY '"' t!' 'nsactioi1:S in the cotn-nlPrr·i·l innll\·inp: :.8100, £2CO. £.500, and £l.CJ~ :-;orb of rlornnH'nt,:.: h;·lYC' t.o be :-:i!.:;nP·l , itJh'·.;;:f'd. Tho:;0 h·an:-actions flrC ( ttt in Y\'rv ~tr1ct l\'9:-, but in t1H' bd-rin_g wor1J n ~ bo·::JknvtkE'l' will

;l bet irlvo1vir:7 £200 or £300 mPrely l1 .. Jnnur of J'i'pllt ·b1P client, bP11t v-

1H' ·~ill n1 the- Q;:nonnt 1f h:--- los:('S. o~ht•r h~1nd. santc trust 1t-, rcpo-;c-J lwoklnnkPr bY the Letting- public.

b!C' to nOte tlF' cnorrnou:-) surns chr~ l1!2,'t' l1ands HlPl'c1y on the

r_,f tl1'' incliYjdnal::; concE~rned. It tu the gontl character anr1

\Ybo rtrc a~·,vciatPd with i1nrr:rtnnt ~~1ort of horse racing.

TlH nropo- • 1-; to rcntcYc the betting ta).. fro·n t1;fl -lwulder-, of the• bcttors. its a"stnup­t11'1l b\- th0 bnn1nnnkcrN anfl jts rcduct~on will be generally 11ppreciated.

c~id not indicate whct.ber oi tip~ vvas to be snp­

Oi' not. the pre.::,Pnt time country D.YC inforn::cc1 or ach-iscd or ''slung 11

cc•rtain D''' role oYer the air. I do lH•t ]c ) . wlwtller -it is propor;;ed in the Bill to mp]H'cos that form of tipping. The pmfc,.•ional tip-Lets who adv0 rti,,o in the dail•· Prcos are to be suppro•~ed, but the

Mr. 1fiaher,]

1766 Racecourses Acts and Other [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

~liui~te did not rnakc anv n~fercncc to broadc:,L~tlng of tips over. tlie. air, nor did he n:aJ\:C' ;ltl:V rPfercnce to hps that ure u:-~ually lllade by 11' "\V;:; papers on the rnor11ing::; of race clay:).

The SEr RETARl FOR PuBLIC biST.HuCT!O)C: The tip,. of ncwopap<T sporting \',Titcrs 'vill bu allowed.

J\Ir. MAHER: Apparently it is intended to suppress the operations of a company known as the South Coast Press Agency, wluch has broadcast mformatwn Lv tele· phone to agents in different parts 'of the State. Herein lies a dif!icultv. This information. previouslv broadcast to the betting public in country district•. enabled thern to lwvc an opportiiniLv of rnakinrr an intelligent bet. Thov were able to l~n~w the starting price of each horse and the nar:nes _and rJurnber of horses cornpot.ing in the vanou· en•nts. They had an opportunity to know "·hether horses had boon scratched and so. were not placed in the false position of. losing then n1oucy on a non-starter. There is no doubt that this company has g1 Yen a ser·nc;c ~o bet~ors rn the country, but whether 1t JS desnable or not ia a motter for this Parliament to determine. I do not propose at this stage to enter into a discus~ion on the equity of tbc matter 1 but I n1crely rncntion it in pas~]ng because country bettors will be concsiderablv affected by the suppression of this corn· pan0'. which by a special sPn'icc has made ay'_lilable information that enabled persons hnng 111 rernotc countrv districts to exercise their judgnwnt intelligentlv in reopect of horses cornpcting in races.-

I believe that betting in hotc·ls has boon a, grave scandal. I do not think that there is an:,· justification at all for a hotel lic-·nsee'~ having to tolerate betting in or about l11s prerni6es. It is not difficult to und('rsi alld . the rea sou why, of coqrse, for hotel proi?netors. must l'( a lisP tho pro~pect of attractmg qmte a number of people to their lie01.t~.ecl prl·mises on Saturdr~v aftor­noons . ·when race n1oetings arc in Progress. Tlw hquor sales must be taken into con­sidnation. If fiftv men gather about hotel premis"~ during ·the afternoon obvious! v there will bo drinks between races, and th~ hotclkeeper, with one eye to Lmsin<'·'· has no doubt tolPrated and encouraged the pre­sence of starting-price mc11 a bout his hotel premises. But it has cieYP!oped into a scandal, and it should be suppressed with a very firm hand. It rn11-st be recognised, however, that many perfectly decent men m search of a chance to make a bet have entered hotel promises to make one not ha..-ing the opportunity of n1aklng one' else­where. That doec not get a,yav from the fact that the pernicious pl'actice 'has dm-eloped whereby every Saturday afternoon hundreds of men spend their money in betting on hotel prerm,,cs, and have added facilitie,, to drink. because of the numbers that con­gregatB there.

I nO>Y .come to the subject of startiniT pnce bettmg shops. The Minister no doubt sets out with good intentions but the real crux of the busin_ess,. so far 'as S.l'. shops are concerned IS 1£ there \Yerc anv genuineness or determination about th~ in~ention of the Government to suppress S.P. shops, the necc,,,,ary powers for the purpose already repose in the J\1inistcr who administers this department. We ha,-e the

[Jir. lrlaher.

Racccour:--c Acts and other anti-garnbling legislation, together with the Liquor ~\.cts, which g·ive ample power to the Government if the/ were so dieposcd, to sqppress start­ing prit e betting, and the aggregation of men about licenced premises for the purpose of enaging in betting operations. \Vhy then !m Ye the Government not used the powers 'vhich they possess? It is surprising that they have not. Notwithstanding all the grave scandals that have developed as a consequence~ of the defiance of the law, no atten1pt has been n1ade so far as I eau eec to take action, except in isolated instances. As a matter of fact, there nas been a surpr~sing lack of inrlination on the part of the Government to enforce the cx:i~ting }a\v. Ko law is nrac1e to be set at defiance.

The SEC.HETA.HY FO.H Punuc INSTRlTTIOX interjected.

Mr. MAHER: I have read the report of t ht' con11nission and I ha YP se ·u nothing there that ,vill alter my mind that under existing legislation the Government, if they were minded to make a vigorous attempt to deal with this evil, have ample powers to do so. It is evident that the Govern­nlcnt, while possessing these pov\rer-=., ha YE' not exercised them, otherwise the law could be enforced more fullv than it has been. i')uch cnforcr-nu?nt wOuld ('Ornmalld the general respect of the community.

TlH' appoi11tnH~nt of the RoYal Comrni~s~on on Hacintl:" r.nd Garuing- w::;.s dictaiPd b\' public opinion. The feeling prcvarh•,d tha,t things were ,not as they should be and that the Government should do more than they had done in the pact to clc a! with thi, C\"il. 'I'he GoYcrmncnt took refuge in the royal commi,,_,ion for the time being. hoping, that it would give them some lead or some recom­mendation to allay public opinion.

·when this Bill, 'vhich contains additional powers is passed, what assurance have the I:louse and the eountrv that the law will be, administered anv m~rc 'trictlv than has been the' case cl uring the past few years '!

I must give the Government credit for many things in the Bill that accord with the majority recommendations of the royal commission. I must give them credit for an honest attempt to try to do the right thing; but, after all, "c must judge of their probaJ:,]e actions in the future by their actions in the past. Aft<-r having passed this Bill giving wider pa-Yers and thereby a.lJPeasing outraged pnblic opinion, arc \Ye

to pursue a policy of ]a_issez faire in the administration of the legislation, as has been the '?ase in the pa~t. or i:-; the law going to lle ngorously enforced 1 That is a question that Parliament has a right to ask. \Ye look forward to so;ne definite statement of the Government's intention in this respect when the second reading of the Dill comes before the House.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA?\ (Drllb IJ) [11.27 a.rn.]: I desire to say ,l few words on \Vhat I regard as a n1ost irnportant nH'asurc. I hope the Minister will not rnsh it through, but wdl g1ve the people as v.-ell as hun. mem­bers of this Committee, an opportunity of studying the Bill in order that they may ~nako suggestions that n1ay be incorporah.2,l In a.rnendmcnts. I appreciated the action of the Govermnent in appoint,ing the royal commission, which I bclim-e has rendered the State an excellent service. That com­mission invpstigatcd the subjects referred

Racecourses Acts and Othe1 [26 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1767

to it very thoroughly. and people \Yho \vcre interested in any way in the racing game had an opportunity to present their case to it. 'I'he commissioners ha Ye now delivered a vPry i11tdligont report, which, I am pleased to know. the Government are determined to act upon by briuging in a Bill of this description.

'The onlv thin.r I wish to sav in that regard is that pe~·haps had the G''ovcrnmcnt a.dn1inistercd rhe law thC'l'P vYould not haYl• been any need to appoint a royal cornmis­sion at alL It was owing to the fact that the la\\ was not enforced that complaints aro'o a;;d the need for the appointmen,t of a rt-'\~al comn11· '•lOll aro.~e. ThG cx-Com­InissiO!lf'l' of Police. l-.'Ir. Rya11. appeared to hoist tLe white flag, because he repeatedly statod in his reports tha.t it was ir11possbl{' for the police to cope with S.P. shops, ancl -so they sprang np like n1ushrooms 111 a pa.ddock after rain. The 11rcsent Conlrnis­sioncr ·has foilowcd the example of ::'>Ir. Rvan; he, also. has virtuallv admitted in his minority report that it would be almost irnpossible for th0 police to clirninate a\Yay­from-the-course betting.

The SccnET.,RY FOR HE.U.TH AXD Ho)tE

ArFAIRS: Under the law a.s it existed then it was.

Mr. GODFRF:Y :YIORGA:\f: The existing laws give the police an cl the Government ample powPrs if the" desire to enforce thorn. The law provides for a penalty that is never applied when the condnctor of a gaming house is arrested. He is. liablo to a fine up to £ )00 or one year Hl gaol, or both. but that prm·ision has not been enforc~:.•d for ve H~. I believe it \Vas used by certain niagistrates years ago, but it is ncn·r n eel i'l Queensland at the present time. The conductor of a gaming house is charged with having in8trurncnts of gaming ln hi::- pn~:..;C'~:-~ion !1·~~ '':.cl of haYing thf' rnorc ;;;priou:; charge rnac1c nr~.·alnst hirn. Of course, the one m~ant the infliction of a verv small penalt::; the other perhaps both fii1e and imprisonment. Unless the police are pre­pared to enforce the la.-...\ nnd ask magistrates to help them b.' infiic.ti'ng tho extreme penalty. especially in the case of men who have offcnclcd on hvo, three, or more occa­sion~;, and unl,css thP Govcrnn1cnt are pre­pared to see t•) it that those who iufringe the law arc sent to prison, we shall never stop away-from-the-course ,betting. It is a nuttter of adrninjstra.tion. Put all the laws one likes on the statute-book, and they will have no effect unless thcv arc enforced. A~ the present time there u.1~e enough Acts on the statute-book to cope with the situa­tion. The report of the royal commission stated that that 'vas so. I have rcacl that report on several ocroa.sions, ~nd studied it thoroughly.

ln a 1.'; l to 1 he connnl . .-.;;,lon recommended aJ:te,·ations .be ltl8 dl_' in t;H' la'.,·. At rrr;;;:ent a hott ~keeper has to have actual kEO\Ylc·dge that a n1an is betting on his premiet•s. 0£ course, it is very difficult to prove it. The licensed victualler n1ay ho serviHg in his hotel and actually see a person betting, but it is .an altogether different thing for the police to prove before a magistrate that that hotel­keeper knew that bctti11g 'vas taking place in the hotel. limvcver, there is to be an a1ncndrncnt in that Jirection.

It will be interesting to know just how thP Government intend to amend other Acts to

deal with these matters. If the Government desired they could deal with them under the Criminal Code, but up to the present the 1 have not so desired. The result is, as "is poi ntecl out in the report of the roval commission, that thoro exist in Queens­la.ncl to-day hundreds of betting shops that clicl not exist years ago. So far as my tnon1orv serves n1e-nnd it serves me over a long· period-there have always been more or lPss opportunities to bet away from the course, but such opportunities were very few and far bdwcen. The facilities, as it. vverc, existed in secret. At no period have I known the time "·hen one could not get a bet a.way fl·JlU the course if one knew the ropes.

A· to whether the Government intend com­pletely to ]WevcEt that form of betting it i.' very clif"icult to say. One can try to limit evils as much a.s possible, but the awav-frorn-thc-coursc betting evil is to-day at its l~xtreme height in this State, and if. on the pa"ing of this BilL the Government administer the law. there will be a clJmmution of bolting slwps throughout the State. On the other hand. if the Government are not prepatT l to administer the law we ar8 wasting our tin1o discussing this measurP-. \Vo might as >vell not have it, because, as I have a.lrcadv said, there are laws on the statute-book 'of Qneenland that could re,trict awa,·-from-thc-course betting had the GoveTn· men't clesircll cuch a, Testri.ction. Evidently the Govemment do not, and apparently the magistrates wc·ro of the opinion that the Govermnent had no desire to do so; they were lenient. "\nd >vithout the co-operation of the police Rnrl the police magistrates the Bill \VP are considPl'ing will be useless. \Ve must derwncl on the police and the magis­trate' to enforce the law, and unless they co-operate, away-frorn-thc-course betting cannot be shunned out. Thev must do then dutv. iVe mn~t look to these two bodies of officials. ~0 one else can interfcrl'. If the police clo not clo their cluty and bring cases of lnfringcmpnt bcforo the magistrates, or if the 1nagistratcs i:1tlict rru:-rely the Inlni­nnnn penalty, notvvithstanding the fact that the defendant has been before them on two or three occa.sions previously for a similar offence. the Bill 'vill )H'OYC to he ~o ll1UC'h scra.p paper.

From the information g-iven by the Minis­tPr '" to the provisions of the Bdl­although I defer n1y ftnul decision until I peruse the- Bill~it a.ppcars to rne to be ahno::;t 100 per cent. perfect.

The SECRETARY roR HEALTH AXD Hmm .-\ • .cFA)RS: You have just said that it is unnecessary.

'.h. GODFHEY :'>!ORGAN: I did not say the Bill unne(_essarY. I added tho pro-Yiso that 1nust be ,enfOrced.

The Sr:cHETAllY FOR Hr:ALTH AND Ho1IE AFF,\JRS : You said that the law was there

:'>h. GODFREY ;\WRGA::\': So faT as a\\'<1Y-iro1n-tf ~-COlll'St' betting is con-eorncd, VC:-.. rrht:rP al'C !1Ufl!Cl'OUS other thing) in fhi:3 Hi1 L--for 1nstancc. the rednctiou of tht~ b0tting tax, which j::; 111o~t irn11oriant-but off-thr ·COUl':5l' betting could have been stopped by enforcing tho ox~sting latvs, "vhid1 are '--eYC"i:c c11ough for thJ purpose and cJ.rry an adequate penalty.

The s~~CRE'LU?.Y r'OR f-lE.\LTH AND Jio:.tE :\n'AlllS: \Yhv did your Government not make an attctnpt to c <lo it when they had the opportunity·:

JJlr. Morgan.]

1768 Racecourses Acts and Other [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAi\': We always get these complaints about the Moore Govemment. \Vhen the 11ooro Government werD in power there was just an odd betting shop. and it was not until the bdting tax was increased to ls. that the number increased. 1 admit I was a member of the GoYernment that increased the -tax, and although I was never in favour of it, I am prepared to take my share of the con­demnation. The ls. betting tax was an inducement to people to bet away from the course and support th2 awa•·-from-the-courso betting shops. The people natur:dl"· objected very strongly to paying h. betting ta·c, and although it was irnpo:-.ed to increase revenue. it had the opposite effect. The Treasurer at that time did not thoroughlv undPt?tand racing people-he was someth~ng like the Minister in charge of this Bill to-dav in that he did not frC(]Uent the l'aC8COUrSC YCry nn1ch or have a 1:0ry great kllow­ledge of racing-and he was led astraY bv listening to people who advoc:cttcd an increa.se in the betting tax from 3d. to ls. It sened no us~ful purposE and the revenue dropped by £30,000 or £40.000. At one time tho reYonue produced from racecour::'es a1nountod to £110.000. but it droppe·l to £70,000 after the imposition of the ls. betting: tax. Instead of paying tlw tax on the course, people used It Ill. boi-; at the starting IH~icc :::hop:;:) and that JS the reason vvhy the number of these shops incrca,od. ·where there wPre a soo1:e of thPm under the M?oro rcgilne th('re 1a.rc hundreds to-da v. EvtdDnt l y there arc ens· tamers who will make bets' in tht"C places. and that is why they are there. lmt tho pomt the Government ha Ye to decide is wlwther it is advisable that tht"' should renutin ~

The Government have decided that it is not advisable and arc endeavouring by this mca.su.ro to do awav With off-the-com ·e bet­ting. In m~~ opinlon that is a ,~Pry good thing fJ~out ever.;~ point of vie''. Th0ro are rnany \vorkcr:3- whose wives 1vil1 be over­joyed that at last the Government are making a genuine atternpt to supprc;;:s alvay-fronl-­thE-'-coursc betting. 'I1hcre ar~ many people -n1en and vvon1fn-who bt:t off th0 course, and if the facility is not there and they ean use that money for better pnrpo'e'. · they will thank the Government for the benefit> this measu!'e will bring in that \Ya v. I have been connect eel with betting a'lmost all my life, and if anybody could prevent me from making a bd it would bo the best thing that could happen to me-ant! the same is truo of many other p 'Ople. Any of us who ha.-e b·Jen at the game for am­lPng-th of time cannot fail to realise that the bookmaker always has the best of it.

The SECRETARY FOH Pt:BLIC IxsTH rcnox : I think that is ,·hy he is a bcoklllaker.

iifr. GODFREY MORGAX: It is thP sensible man who has the bag and the mug who makes the bet.

'I'ho SwnETAHY Fon Pt:BLIC Ixsrnt:CTION, I would not call the man who makes a bot a mug. I think vou ha vc rr1ade one or two yourself. (Laughter.)

Mr. GODFREY MORGAK: :\1y long experience suggests to me that if you c 'ulcl '>top people from making bets it would bo a good thing for them. :Many of us have the little gambling germ in our dispositions. ;md we like a little flutter. The whole point is whether we can stop it or not. If

[.,1:. Morgan.

a man who can afford it bets. he does very little harm; but, as the :\linistcr knows. there arc many people who. instead of using money in betting, should bo pa5·ing· the butcher and the baker and using the money to feed their kiddies. Unfortunately, those people like to hav-e a bet just :cs I do, but can they afford it? That i,, the question that must be considered in dealing with a n1C'U~tue such as this.

I think that the legalisation of betting on coursing is a right and proper thing·. \Vhcn we find that smnething is necessary or should be carried on we should legalise it instead of winking at it. Up to the present we haYc b~;en allo,Ying bctti11g on coursing. although it has been illegal. and that sort of thing only encourages people to br(ak the law.

_\s to betting at athletic meetings, I do not object to that. One might as ','ell be able to bet on a man as on " hor,e. How­,_,ver, rny cxp('ricnco has taught n1c rwYer to bet on anything that talks. (Laug,htcr.)

I look upon the betting tax reduction as the most important part of the Bill. I have alw<Lys claimed that the man who goes to a race rnceting and enjo:,-s the sport tshonl~l not be' more liable to be taxed for hts afternoon's recreation tb1tn the n1an 1vho g·ocs to a footba11 nwtch Gl' \v2.tches a ga.rnc of golf or cricket. Yet many people think that the man who goes to the races 1s a proper person to bo taxed for revenue pur­poses.

A GO\'EllXl\IEXT :\1DTBER interjected.

l\Ir. GODFREY MORCAN: The hem. nH~mbcr 3ays that he ('rtn nJ!ord to pa~~. Many of them cannot afford it, and 1t 1s not right that rac,~gocrs should be taxed any more than those vv-ho fav-our other forms of recreation If racing its a rtcreation it should not be singled out for taxation, and if it i' a husineS' it shmdd J:ot be called upon to pay more than any other form of busine;;;s.

A GO\'ER:.r:.\IE'!\'1' :0-IE~mEH: T}w entrance !llOIWY is too high.

::Hr. G-ODFREY JVIORGAX: TlF' cntrane' tnoncy koPps the rares going. There are two 'ections of the comrnunitv who keep racjng goinp;-th(~ rnan IYho o·,n;s and trains the horse. and thus provides the JWrformer and the arnusen10nt, and the person w·ho pays at the gatc and provides the prize money, without which racing conld not con­tinue. Anv others ,,, ho seck to make a living frorn~ the garne arc tnoro or le's par~­sites on it, and only cDn1e into the sport 111

order to make n1onov frcnn it. Thov do not come into the game 'became they think that they can put sornothing int, it. It is onl,· the horse owner and tlw people who pav for admittance to the course ;dw pnt monev into the game. All the other people who arc associated with it a.re there to earn a, Jiying.

The racing gan10 has }ltOYidcJ v;ork foe many JWO]lh'. If it had be< u prohibitPcl ten,; of thou·-arH.1::; more people would haYo been llllf'llll)loy('d tlwn tho"(' who art' out of \VOrk to-da.y. T'hcrpfon', rae-ing proY!clPs employ­r.ncllt all cl affords a Vf'rY irnnortant Inark• t for certain produce gro.\Yn l;:v the farmer~. Frotll all poiHts of Yiew ra~ing to-day is .a bu~irJC""'-:". not a sport, and the people engaged in it arc tht"'C for bu:.:inc~;;;; only and not fur thr· cpon of it. The old "sport" who was a.-3~ociated ·with raci11g in the past ha.s

Racecourses Acts and Uther [26 NoVEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1769

really CC3.3t'd to exist. There nHl y be ha1f­fl..-dozcn who a~sociatc 'vith ea;·i;lrr Lo-dav mere!: fa;· tlw loyu of the sp~rt. Ln{t

,-:p<>aking the rnajority are in it the"," think that they can gl~t sonlc­

thing out o'f it. They rega~·d it as a busi-11('3:.-;, and not as a sport.

The Mini·~ 'r said that the D'll would frm11 l'LITID-inrr off tll~-- cour~c

in-forrr.latiot"~ to the- oubicle would preveut tlll• Somh

front di~:, en1inating this infonnat ioa the State. T'hat i;; a right propo,al. fmd 1 hope tLnt it so water-tight that it ·wilt preyeut inforn1ation frmn being dis-senlinatcd Hl tl!c fntul'C'. 'Yhctt i~ to }1Ul)PC1l

if n t·ac:n~ clid1 1n·ohibits a broadcasting ~tat:on frotn .sending out ra-cing infonrHttiun such as odd;;; before the race, jockeys' nameM, a nU b:1.1Tier po~itions '[ 1Sha.t po\YC'l' w]ll th:.:: CoYc rnnv·nt ha Ye to pren_'nt a ccwpany front constructir:~~ a high tO\VLr oYerlooking the ntcccou1 , ~o .a:-3 to obtain this inforrnation to h_;_·ond( ::tst t·J the li~tening l)~tting pub~il:?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC TKSTRUCTIO;-.;: The CnYPtl10r in Counc:l rnav dcclal'L' the tower to h.: n '· nlacc. '' if it L., not alrcad v {'OYcrccl in the> definition. ·

"\Ir_ UODFHEY :\IOHGA~: If the GoYe>·n­n!el1t c:111 do tL·u- tl.~y -will lH: do1ng a ]ol af good.

Allolhn matter relate- to tip .c;;tt'r:-. who in the Prc"-' ho•x th(' bf ninv, public nw,v pick \V~nnPrs. Ho\Y \vill tlw UuYPl'lllllt':'t deal with the-,c people if the lwthllg public are prepared to pav- thern for their information?

The PRr :.1 tEH : You do not ~~ -,•nl to grasp the legal l~o:;:it~ou in regard to broadc3- bng. 1t 13 quit.,~ tnh' r,hnt the Connnon"\vcalt\1 G0Y0rnrnP11t lHtve the 110\Vflr to i~"LlC a licen.:.c to a broadra::;ti11g ~tabon, but it cannot in it~ ::;tntion clo <-ln:·th~I!g that contn-1Yt'llf'S the Stale law.

~lr. GC'DFREY l\IORGAX: If the Go,f'rn. n10nt ha\-c th,:t. po· 't'r then t}JI~y can gc•t over th0 ~whole difficulty.

The PR_ ;..nEH: That covcr;:i it.

:'llr. GODFLll~Y ~.WHGA"i: othcrwiRe. T was going to f'UL~~cd, the Prc1nicr should briup; the matter before the nc,xt P1·Pmicrs' Conf~rcnce ::o a~ to enlist th~ ~:'\·mpathy a.nJ support of the other Australian GoYern­ments.

The PREil!lER: It has been brought np on inrnuncrah!c occ•nf'iOn:-' bv the ~l'-,"· Sout;t \Ytdc:.~ and C,:ucen~land ~ Gnvcrnrncnts and othpr Covernn10nts. t 1)0. T~w real ,;;;f'anJa\ is in connPdion \Yith the lack of control excrc;~·(;J ovt'r thl-' tclt'phones tl1at are u.;;ed for the dissemination of racing information. The Commonwealth Government will not do ;.:nything- in that conrH'ction, or at least tl1ev hr1ve not do:te anything up to the presPnt tlrne. \V c are in a stronger positjon in con­Hcct1on \vith tho broadcasting of ra-cing information. \Ye are tightening up our law in that rcF·pcct, and "\Ve have the right to expect the ConHnon,vealth Governrncnt to do so, too.

ii-Ir. GODFHEY :YlOHGA:'\: I am pleased to know that. bccau'' that will bo in the best interests of tbe people. The State Gonrnm<'llt should do all that they possibly can in this coEnection, and if the Cornn1on­wcalth Govcrrnnent will not do anything t()

hc·lp then thcv dwuld be maclll to suffer ill CO!IsPquertcP: I an1 very plea~ed to know that a l-I"oadca.-;ting ;:·tation th3.t ':lenDs out

lnfonuatiou vvill be regal'ded as a " for the pnrposos of this Bill, and

tho=: vcr·so1~s \Yho u~e it rnay be pro:Jecuted, aJ'd that th;s informc'Lon will not be sent o~tt in the future. That ij go~ng to help con·~-idt'rably.

I fed that tlw Bill will clo a lot to bring­horse rncing back 'o v,rhat it vvas before it coliapwd about 1929 or 1930. If the Uoyern­lllClH can do that it v.-ill br iu the iLterests o£ the people, a well as o[ Uw persons 2;'.Sociated ith horse racing, and also in t(L intcrc._)b:. prin1ary p:rocluccrs who gro\'. fec'd fo1·

The ~~~inister said he posses-~·ed certain powers under the Bill to reduce admi,,,ion ch~::!-rg·<:s to raceCl'Ur:'e..::. That is not before it. time. I am thoroughly satisliod that racin.Q' club~ a l'{~ charging too much for a.drr1i:':-<ion. I an1 thorOughly satisftefl that e\·er:· elub ill the metropolitan area should be able to have a reserve to vvhich the people conlcl be arlrnittod for at most ls. l ar11 a 1:-:o t.hon•ugl1 ty l'nnvinced tbat in ilw t re::-crve tbcre should be a 2s. 6d. hJtali:~~ttor. ~·-\t one time. \Yhen tho 5s. totali·a1or ".\·as ad\·o::atC'.O, !t Waf. said it could not he donf'. \Ve hnxe found since that thP 5s. totalintor has been a complete :·.uccc:;:s, If \YC are to attract to the race­cour.w t!tO.''' pP<'plc who now patroni:'e bet· ting ,:;}-r~,ps ''"~ n1nst give thern cheaper facilitin.:;:. certainly n::.ud1 cheaper than those r ':'ercd to thr·Hl at the prcse11t Hlornent. This Hill ~hould not seek to put rnorc money in tlw of thr~ rac1ng c1uh~. It f'hould han for ohjpcj the helping of men and women ~,, ho like tl• see horsP raring, and the JlHl king of that nossible as chr;:J~ply as practioabk. :'\ otwithstall(ling what race clubs may say or do. I hope the Minister will see that the people have an opportunity of going into tlJC rac~cour . .,;c at a rnini1nun1 cost. thus giving thmn a.n opportunity of haYli•g' a bet 1.vithout ha ,~ing to run round and sa5· to other raccgof'L':I, "\Yill you go ha lYe':::: or thirds with rnl: in a ticket? " Fac jlltil -; must abo lw given thcn1 to have a bet as low as possible. If we reduce the price of totalisator tickets and attract the people out into the sunshine and fresh air to look at the races, and thus to depart fron1 their vresent practice of congregating in sweaty_ betting shops. we shall accomplish mnch good from every point of Yiew.

I inteml to wait and see what the Bill it;-.clf conbllns. The ~Jlni::;tcT 1ws c~ rL;~in1· given us a ver;;: cOITilJlc•tf' re~un10 of ,,dwt he sav;":) it contain~. The infonnaiion ho gave iS n1uch greater tl1an we twually receive at this stage, and if the contents of the Bill arc a' the :\Iinister has explained them. it \Yill haYo m,· support.

Mr. BHA0iD (Tsis) [11.52 o m.J: 'CnlikD the hon. member for Dalb\' I do not get a flutter out of ha.ving a l•('t on a racecourse. I arn r;ot a betting rnan. Pos~ibly, there are other forms of gambling that arc indulgrd in by various peop]e, such as n11n­ing. and the stock exchange. That is a form of gan1bling.

I do not know \vhether the Bill aims at preventlng pcopl(~ who cannot go to a race­{·our:-<e frorn betting at all. Pcr~on:·t1\•:, 1

prefer to see a ho~·se race for the love of horse racing itself, as rt was ongrnally

JJfr. Brand.]

li/0 Racecourses Acts and Other [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Btll.

intended. This ideal of horse racing, how­ever, has aln1ost disappean•d, the sport has de~;,;ncratt•d, and persons who engage in it go to Let as a businc'8 rather than to watch horse racing for the lm·e of it as a sport. As the Minister explained, this Bill will preyent the busine~s of horse racing frorn being nploited as it is to-day.

If, however, betting is to be confined to the raeccoursr~ itself, and iF. according to the l\1inistC'r, every n1cans is going to bn taken to JWCYent science from broadcasting accounts of a horse race throughout the State for the bcm•fit of tho'e who cannot watch it, many people outside the rnetropoli tan arec. ,,-ill be> clepri,·ed of the plea><ure the;;~ '' ould othprwisc g-et from a genuine i11tprcst in 1-lH" snort. I do JJOt 1-;:;Jow wlldL0r we should be right in doing that. I do not know vi·hdhcr \Vl' nHght to deprive pooplo who ('anuot attend a race rncctilJQ' bnt who arc interested in raciug c>f the' ]~lca·~l!rP ot li~L~ning-in to a description of races.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt-BLrc IxsTm en ox:

Tlrat '.\·onlcl not inhrfero with L>etting.

'\h. BRA :\D : 1Hlc\0r,too<l from thn J\Iinistc.r q1at it was the inter1t!on to prohibit a de.-.cnptlon of the ra~'c frmn bciug brnad­ca -t "\\ }ulc the race ,,vas in progress.

ThP SEcnET.\RY FOR PrBLJC IxsTnt·cTI0~: I -did not sn,~y that.

:\Ir. BRA:\D: I am plea'fcl to lnarn from tLc· l\iini ter ttwt people vvho art' intcrc~ted in hor~(~ racing \Yill not b0 denied t.he> pleasure of listening-in to a de cription of a r;_tc c \Yhile it is in progress.

There are rnany phasC's of thi.s Dill that, "\vill n1ct•L "-itb the cornrnon support of hon. ll1l'!1lbcrs of this Cha.mbcr. I1on. merr1bcrs lun-t~ argued-and I agree IYith thc:n-tlJU,t the bt<iting tax should Le rcducPd, particu­larl/ if it is true that that tu-;,:: ha . ., bc,en the· cause of bring-ing abt)ut a sy~t('D1 of b~~ttint, that is a menace to l1or:--·' L.tciug.

I nho 1\Tclrolllc the clau~e forbicldinu· bet­ting in hotels. 1 question IYhcthci· the :\linistcr will be able to enfotce the regula­tions to pn'vont betting front taking place olf the course m other pl'cmises. In this re,::rc~nl l 1. as Inuch irnp1·cs~ed l;y thL' nlin­onty report, suLnnitted by ClllC ot the rncm­ber:-; of t ho Hoyal C'ornutis-..:ion on n.acing and Gamil1g. An extract is a~ follOIY::-'

" Generally speaking, the conclu~ion a.rtivcd at by 1ny colleagues in respect to otf-the-eourse betting un be. sus­taillcd on the eYidcnce before u:s--

Tbe SECRETARY FOH PuBLIC INSIRt.:CTIOX : '' l ''tn be fnst-ained on the cYidrnce bcfc,re us."

Mr. BRA:\'D: "VYhich vYa" ba:":cd on HlO:!.'al ar~d

cth~cal grounds. 1 con.'3icler, howcYcr. that their conclusion will not soh·e the problc111 as it prc~ent'-· itself in Qu(!CHS­

laed. It rnn~.t bP l'Clllf'lllbcrcd oii:'-the­DOl!r.-0 betting i::< 11ot peculiar to Qucc·n:-.­land; it is ju:3t ns .acute~ jn ::-\ew Soutll \rales anrl \ ictoria. !\'or ha,:-; it gro,vn np oyer-night; it ha.:; deYeloped during at least thirty :n~ar~."

If of-1'-tlE•-course betting has dcYelopcd OYCi

the past thirty years, it is llOt likelY that we shall be able to stop the practice nc•w. Can wo preYent the people fron1 continuing a practice that has been with U>< for thirtJ

[Mr. Brand.

;-·c;Hs' It has been said that the Australians arp a gmnbli11g race.

1\Ir. KAXE: That is " ll·ipe."'

:\fr. BRA:\'D: Of com'se, it is There is no doubt that the Australian people love to ha V<' a little flutter on a horse race, but '"c know that ga,mbJing takes place in Lon­don, not only on horse racing, but a variety of otht•r thing·s. Quite reeently a British Cabin<'[ :\1inistcr \\·as forced to resign owing to a g·a ml1lc that took placP as a result of information disclosed in rclaticn to new tariff rates.

But to return to the subject I was deal­ing with, is it right that people \vho ov. ing to rli,tance anrl other cause' cannot attend a race meeting should b0 deprived of the opportunity of h,n·ing their little flutter a:;. \Yell as tl1cir more fortunate fel1o1Y rncn 1

On nHill,V occasions the hon. rll('I11b'.'l's of this Connuittcc have" consic1l'n~c1 a.nuihcr e-Yil. t-hat of sly-grog S( lli:ng, but. Hotwith:3tandjng all tlls amendiuent~ t 1

t: t ha Ye h=· 'll rn dQ tn k~ . .!.'i:-"[ation in orclcr to C'l>d' a'--O',H' it "c:ut, onh: or~e ntctlio<1 h;:;.::: l!C('ll

cloing_· it '~nd Ll1at i.;: tlH• control or jJJg ·of trade To-dny t~d"-l'S 11 hen' lhct·c ; ud t hN<' "' Go\-ernrucnt. nrc

Tl:( ~'-rcn:r· ·.~nY roo' :\o. rr. n1attcr hts b:•cn praf'ticalh n;cllt of the _\et 1n.""t

:\Ir. BRA:\D: The takt~ a !1tt1c· trip

Pc! LL' IxSTP.UCTIO::\: ~> -g;:op- .;;:r1lill:.­

";ncc the :Luer; 1-., t'itl'.

The Sr:CHETARY FOH P:·n.J:· \Y0TI· s: \Yhai part of Queen:Jand ':

Tl1P Sr ··n,- IARY

\Ye \\-ill l1axc sonlf'Lod-- go if .YOll like.

BTL\.:\D: Iu thi~ Ch;unlH}l' we haYC" to att('n1pt to ·~t 111 11 out

hu1· I' 1P1 -.., e bcc11 llJHtblc 1Ye prcfc·r to l1e hypo­

''"c kJlOIV it j.:: UdcillQ: TJl C\~. lt ·j~ · n ihle that we n1n ,- i l1e h ,•c;r1h·ol tlllo; YicC'. too~if it ean· lw a. Y1U'- -by 1 ic·0ns:no· ra.thrr tl1a11 kgi:-:lation ~-h~t, ~.,:~·· frmn nw.v allow ~tartlr!g betting to c t doubt yerv whotlH!r the :\Ii11i~tcr be able, uJH.ft·r clausc:3 of ihf' lilJ as he La~ f'xplained the1n to the to ~tarnp ont ~tarting price

It has been said that S.P. ::rcuera.ll v confmed to thf' poorer :Vrr. Ca1~roll i11 his report ~etq out P:-)

\1·ho tLis kind of lH:>ttin.2,·. ~a.T· that arc-

,, (1.) Those th~siru":-S of Letting. but \Yho. because of C'COUOlEic circtun~tal.Jccs, are 'unable to attend a l·acccour:-c.

'' (2.) Tho· e \Yho "re nnab'c to attend on acl'OUHt of a g·pographical dis..tJY;tn­tage.

''(3) Thc~c cn~aged in f:Onle occupation~ or followi11g son1c ~port which pn-'YeHt~ tlwir attcndanc0 at :1 nH'CcOtlTS('.

" (4.) Those who~ for business reasons, rna.ke their investrncnts off the cout.-'c. although they attt:JH.l the ra t 3.

" (5) Those who are in a position to a!te11d races, but will 110t do so because thcv ha Ye faciliti(- far betting else­\Yh~:re."

Rncecour,<~s Acts and Other [26 NovE}IBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1771

Tlws0 are the c1a~s0:-; who. accordii:g' to "Th.'lr. Carroll, JH't~fL'l' to bl•t off the cour:'e. There arc n1Pn in the couutrv who get to a raCC'l~our, ,_! and thL'l'C' arc othPrs are unabil; to at1 C'Hd 1wcausc~ horsp racin2; i~ lin1ited in tLe ~ountry cli:-:;trict . ..;. The co;_uttT'\'

rat:ing clnbs arc• 1.1Ili::1blc to keep t Lc•ni~·-'lYl:.., financial. I quc~".tiou ver~, 1nuch wlwtlh'. "~·c ~hould depriYe this large section 0f t1lt!

people of the right to listen-in to a horse race or to have a snull bet. A::: the COin-

of Polirc ~tatP::;. these pranicl"; have (roino· on for lhil't-v vear::-; and

lJC'en t'nkP{~ rvhantap:c of by rncn of repute. TiqlutalJk people have a small in the S.J?. shops. Ilou. n1rrnbers of Counnitt 1'E' have CY0Il clone so.

The PHD!JER: IJonP what'?

:\h. BlL\:'\D: Uad bet' in S.P. shops.

Th0 1'RL\llt:1;: You speak for yourself.

The PRE:\JlER: You have no ris;·ht to .~peak for othPr·~ in tb.:J.t rc·pcc'

:vir. BRA~D: \Ye know \YC clo nnd \YC

l1aYO to faee tllis que.Jion. \Y{: haY·' to b' as hone :t vvith onrsrh<-;;,; as 1vith other people.

I que:--.tion IYht•thcr the objeetivo of the Bill call Le attained. l bd1e\~c the problulli z·ould Le dt>a1t with bcttc~r L•v' licen:::i1.1~ ~kreping the control in the hand:-i '""of GovernnH·nt ratlu r tha11 that the shr'uld conrinno a,~ it is to-day. E, •ry per::;:o:1 arhnit-> that the indiscriminate bcttin'l" tha.t

on ]::; JJOt d·-·.lrahlr~ alld not \Yantcd LJ. ('Otlnnnnit.Y. Dut how are lYe going to

:'\top 1t? I La \"t' not as yet pcru:=;;c•d the Bill. hnt fl'orn 1,\ hat has bt_•cn said bv the ":\Iini~tcr on it~ jutroduetlon. I bcli~YC that tl1e lH"( cnt 11rn.: t.icc:-; wj]l continue:. an cl that in the fUture IYC :-;h dl Lw a~ked to to .('lld_ a YO_!.l r in ]ll"OV'd the pl'op1c or cOlll'Sl'~. ~·\ t a_1l cYrnt ..:;, I ~0c no !.'t a~on "\Yh.\' rite COUEtr: ~100p]P .\Yhn ho \"(~ i:l.ll ~td:er~

unPblc to plea-.urrs tC· nul bt' ,..,all l-1:-~. ve tLcl r

l ~honlcl lH: d.'n1Pd the it l1er·a lb<:: iht'Y [I rp

<ttt{'nLl r:?J'l' rnrt tint::~. · The be :rot from horse raci;,g should

to tho"<' £a\·ourcc1 i"!"lf'Oplo \Yho Sa turda~~ and

Tbc PRF.:\HEil (Hon. IV. F01·gan Smith. Jfarlmy) [12.6 p.m.]: It has lwen l'ig-ht.ly said that this is nn important Bill. It amcllds various Acts that dert! with horse racing and n1any other !natters. but. of course. mal~:l'S no attempt to deal with morals, as such, on a ]WO[Wl' bas''

It 1~ jcilc for hon. rnt>rnbcrs to g-ambling i a nntural instinct and ffiu:--t hP QTi.d:jficd. That is not an a!l. vv.•t· thl~ T'ill, in anv v:at at all. Tbr:rf' :;rcat nurnbcr of natl~ral dl'sire~ th~d; ntan J....lncl. but org-nniscd soeict5· bas tho,' desires lllU·t be controlled lntcd, <:u;d \vbat \i\'f' are clo;rtg hen' ~s to regulate garubling so that it doe.~ not h"com_e a Incn'H'C to scrcict~-. Tl1c purpo .... c of thrB BilL bluntl:; tat£'d, is to prevent that gro'>\'th of a YPsied intf>rest ,vhich tbl:; GoverninPnt bclieYc to ho detriDlentul to the inb·n·st...; of sori<·ty itsc1f.

\Yl1cre thP la\v is inadequate to dell v:ill1 anythir.g, and, thcr£>forc. can be CYadcd and in SOlllC' cases Jcfit'd, th~·ro is a dang~r of ha1?ing that ht'.V brought into contctnllt. That is a fact, tho truth of YYhich any jurist or moralist will readily admit. \V o know tbat

the existing law is c•ntircly inadequate to deal Yl"ith tiH' matters with which this Bill dl•al:-1. Tnkc. ior exan1plP~ the lUC of licC'lJst'd prerni~0s LUlcler the L·:qnor Act as ~tarting

betting :-:hops. An adf~qnatc dofPrH·e th·' lict:J1~<:'C' i:-:; tbat he did not k110W

1t \Yas taklng plaCL\ and ihe Olltl5 is on L'ro,ru to provf>. that he did ki1ow. \re

knO\V n1a.ny things that we cannot .prOYf'. lt "\vould bP vPrv diHicuJt for anv hon. lll<'mlwr of this Committee. not to sa·v what -;ou1eOiiP e1f-f' knows. but. to pl'01~C' t'hat he knO\YS it. Dut surel:v no one can a.rgu(' irt fa.vcrar of the contiln.lance of betting in hotels! Onp only nc,•d::; to go ronnel Bri~bo no on <111\v SnturJa-;:-- <.1ftcrnoon to sec th8 exL,nt +-o · IYhich thi~ evil has gro1vu. Fnrthennort.", thr {~ people IYho nn~ ('Onnectcd \Yith 1hi~ illeg-al cntr'rprisc. if allowed to continu'-, I rPpcat. \Yill bFcon1c a vested intt-)re~t excrcis­ill~{ inHut'nce 1n nutny dircct.io11~.

I \\-nllt to take this opportunit~~ to g-iq: the ConuuittcP some infonnrttion reg·ardiug an article that was published in the " CoutH•r­lV1ail" la~t Saturday n1ornlng.

..:\nv ll1C'Jlllwr of tJ1c Cornmittw -.,ho ha::; had l11inistorial experience understands how a Bill i' prepared. Cabinet-at· a }Iinistnr in tl1e lir.q in~t·tnt"::'-lll<L\' cl0C'idc tha.t it i:? rl<·~inJ blP to pn•parl' a B~ll and to introduce it with a. vit~~.- ,l ') ac:ilicvjng ~on10 objecti\'"C. Tho r _!_inister COJl('''l'IlC'd tht:n instruct th·:--P:n·lianl('lltary to prPpare a Dill alon::; CC'1'lait1 and thi~ docurrH'llt js kno\Yil as :" draft cons1c1C'ratiou. The Dill t!H~ll goes f\tb1net. It nuty not go any further: nuty i.urn it d'own, .::.n1d

i~ the c·Hl of the Bill ;o far as th'n or tl 'tt Parliarnc11t i;.; concorncd.

But Cabinet may approve of the purposes cf the Bill. "·hich then has to be put into a fonn :o·uitable for phteing before Parlia-nH~llt for it consideration. rnan--:,. a.;;: twt•l\·, c!raft~ of a Bill rnay prePared 1~ •fore it. it fin tlly approYed by Cnbinet n,nd broPgLt i.itto Parliarncut.

Thi.:- BilJ wrr~ prc,.parud jn that, the usual, Y':L:>;. Tile"' drtlft for consideration was pn~pnred by Parli~nncntarv Draft~man and S'-'llt to the Go\?tTnmPnt P1:inting- Office. Yt'n· f<.'Y<" people !:ad acce"' to that Bill­we know all the people who had act ess to it

•omeonc illegally obtained a copy three page lhat draft Bill--not the

Bill that is being brought in thls n1oruing in its full text-but near enough to it lo be accurate for newspaper purposL's. It is cle d~ that the person invoh-ed had access onlv to ihree page,; of that Bill. There hre nlunY 01 h1•r thinlY:;; on it,-; letter pn -i'-:' thnt \Youid !J:1....-c bc<'n~ QTcat nC\Y'-~ ·- Jul'. :-;neh a::; the clatLSC' IYith the rt>dnction of the bt-1 tir;g tax the c:nu..;o atncncLng th1: \~a grant , Uarninr, and Ctht:r Cffe11cc Acts. Obviously, the pcr~o:a involved bad no access to rho·<:, or tfu y would have been rublisllC'd bct·an--c• of their 110\YS V(lluo. A chaft Dill i printC'd unJy on cne side of th pap T, .and thn:e rwg-es of this Bill dc:·a1ing \Yith startiug~rrif'e Letting w0rc eoGve:ve:J in t.YlJC\\Tltteu forrn to tho '' Couricr-.:Hail )' oflice ancl printed by that ncwopapc·r.

\Y c know Ydw conveved it to the .. Cour·;c,-­}:Iad.'' \Ye do not k~ow yet who ga,-c the: inforrnation to the pcuon wbo gan~ it ,,..., the ·· Cuuri•_"'r-J)..lail," but \\'0 expect to h.uJw at a not·ver__;-cli5tant datP.

IloxoLRABLE MEMBEHS : Hear, hear !

Hon. W. J!1organ Smith.)

1772 Racecourses Acts and Other [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

The PREMIER : It is oEh fair to state, Mr. Hanson, that neither ·the " Courier­Mail " roundsman, Mr. Surnmcrs, nor any of the other members of the regular staff who ccrnc to Parliament l-louse or to Government office~, is in a11y way in1plicated in the stunt.

Ho>JOGR\BLE ;\1EMBERS: Hear, hear!

The PREMIER: It is fair to them that I should say that. But we know who con­veyed it to the " Courier-Mail," and to whom he convoyed it in that office. That person later published it as it was received. The persons who had access to this draft went further; they began to got to work. One of the brilliant ideas that must have, crossed their rr1inds \Yas to send an organiser to n1y electorate with a view to getting the people there to send letters and telegrams to me suggesting that the Bill be withdrawn. (Opposition laughter.) The hon. member for Dalby may laugh, nevertheless that is no.

Mr. GODFREY :!Y[oRGAN : I am laughing at the ridiculousne" of it.

The PREMIER: It was ridiculous, as is clotLrly indicated by the fact that I did 1:oi rj.:cciYe a :;ingle letter or wire' bearing on tl!o matter. That shows yery clearly, too, that the people in that electorate are not going to be bulldozed by any organiser for anti-social vested interests. But the point is that that sort of thing goes to indicate the unsavoury nature of an illegal practice that cannot at preaent be effectively controlled. Therefore, we have decided to tighten up the law in accordance ·\vith the recornrnondations by the royal commission.

rrho recomlnendations of the conlmissiou arc virtually the whole basis of the Bill, with ono or two minor alterations and addi­tions. For example, as pointed Ol!t by the Secretary for Public Instruction, the Bill provides that all racecourses shall be con­trolled, that is to say, that we shall have power to fix admission charges and specify the type of accommodation, such as seating­accommodation or even totalisator facilities, that ehal! be provided by racing clubs for the racing public.

I believe in the small totalisator, as sug­gested by the hon. member for Dalby. Thoro are totalisator machines in operation in other countries of the worlcl to-dav. "hen· a bettor can place 2s. 6d. or 2s. in a slot and get his betting ticket with the same eaae as he can get a box of matches out of an automatic match-selling machine. These machines are not costly in administration and they arc absolutely reliable mechani­cally. Facilities should be given to the public in that direction.

Of course, ovorvone must realise that all funns of gan1blini are anti-social-no Social­i't ;:;au be a supporter of gambling, because 1t rs based obviously on a desire to get someth1ng for nothing-but under this Bill those things will be regulated, they will be done in the open and not outside racecourses or ,,-here a sport of some kind is being earned on. The man who goes to races at least eau claim that he is interested in seeing horses gallop and the man who goes to coursing meetings can at least say that he g-ets a. thrill out of the racing of dogs, but there 1s no thrill of that kind in starting price shops. That is gambling, and only gambling. Those people might just as well play at hazards or any other similar game.

[Hon. W. F'ot·gan Smith.

If we were merely going to provide some­thing of iuterest to the public we should do it in a much more interesting way than that. If we decided to provide facilities for gambling in an interesting way, why not start a casino and have everything run properly? VV c do not propose to do such things, because we do not believe thorn to be in the public interests.

Reference has been made to the g1vmg of facilities to people who cannot go to races. Why should those facilities be giYen? Is it desirable that they should be granted? It is said "You caunot contml gambling; YOu cannot stop it. \Vel!, legalise it m·ery~ \vhere." That is a common suggestion. There are desires of mankind that cannot be totally eradicated. Are we, therefore, to legalise them and is the State to derive revenue from them-and it is said that if betting shops are licenaed a largo amount of revenue will be obtained 'I Another very important social problem is prostitution. No form of civilisation has ever boon able to eradicate that evil completely. It has existed in all ages, in all countries, and under C\·ery form of social organisation, but because it is so arc we going to give it legal status and authority? Arc we going to charge a fee in the form of a tax from each person who uses it, and justify our action on tho ground that it raises revenue • There is a perfect analogy between that and betting shops.

A further argument that I use, and empha­sise is the ono that I referred to in the beginning: it is a dangerous thing from the point of view of the structure of society in itself t,o establish another form of vested interest. If we legalise betting shops then we establish another vested interest in the community, and that in my view would lead to countless difficulties in administration. I have been in Adelaide, where betting shops are legalised. It is claimed that the legalising of betting shops in Adelaide has been a distinct success. I investigated them, a.11d so did the roval connnission. and everyone who has been there knows that the legalising of betting shops has not in any way controlled the evil.

th. GoDFREY MORGA:;: Hear, hear! I looked through them, too.

The PREMIER: I know men who were quite honestly in favour of legalising betting shops, but after Yisiting Adelaide and inquir­ing into that phase of the question they returned strongly opposed to it.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN : Hear, hear !

The PREMIER: Those men visited Adelaide with perfectly open minds. I have no desire to see a similar position in Queens­land. 1 lm vc no desire to be the head of a Government that would be responsible for legali, ing such institutions. In any case, legalised betting shops in Adelaide have not stopped illicit betting entirely. Illicit betting goes on in that cit: just the same. Where it pays to break the law, people take the risk, but it is the duty of the Government to regulate those things as much as poc"iblc, and by keeping everything clean and in the open air the evils attached to them are diminished.

I am satisfied that the work of the Roval Conulli~s ·an on Ra-cing a.11d Ga1ning ,\·as of great value to the State, and that this legislation, based on its report, will be an advantage to the people of Queensland,

Racecourse.~ Acts and Other [26 NoVEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. li73

and will do a great ·deal of good in the direction of making various forms of sport much cleaner than is the case to-day.

HoNOURABLE l\IE2\!BERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. EDWARDS (.Yanan(!o) [12.25 p.m.j: This is a very important Bill. 1 commend the UoYernment for bringing forward a measure that is likely to be productive oi much good. It is to be hoped that when the Bill becomes law the GoYernment will sec that it is enforced: otherwise, the time of the Committee will haYe beeu wasted.

I was Yery inter0sted in listeuing to the Yery clear explanation of the Bill that wa.o giYen by the Minister, and the cnerg·y that he displayed in doing so. It occurred to me at the iime that tl10 :\linister had missed hi~ Yocation. I pictured tlJO hon. gentleman ruuning a rlose finish and wi11ning by half "' head. It is plcasiug to know that tho .'.Iinistc•r is able s~ enthmiastically to dis­cn,- a subject of wch importance to the :State. _\ccording to the rem<trk- of the Prunier, he also has taken a keen interest in this most. important question. He informed the Committee that he had studied the legalised belting shops in Adelaide, and '"' urecl uJ that he we ut i11to the right ,hop.

Allyonc 'vho ha:-'i the interest of Queensland at heart ('annut but bP intcrc,,tcd in thir.; Bi:J. I thiuk it will prove to be of great Yalnc tu tho welfare of our youug nwn. .For

past atldctic~ havp be(~ll gradually t.hc nun1ber of adherents the\ used

to hwn'. The UlU~c lies io a great~ 0.:\:tcnt in tho cxi~tcnc(~ uf LPtting t:hops. -Youn~ HlPn rnay bt' fccn lcuving t1H' football .and cricket groL!nd;; and other fields of sport to g;o to the~e shon:-; vvhcr·· thev rnav l1ct on a horse rare hundreds of mil~s av~ay. As a youug nu1n 1 wa:-3 very jntercstcd in athletic<-. l have' seen thP best running grou11d;;; in .--\u tralia, and l ;.:uppo,,e the best runner~ that e ,-er [lL!t a ohoc on. In those da1.s young n1cu took a very keen intcrc~-;t ~ n athletic~. Athktics build np the pr_:'ciqtw .and tLc· character of the individual and it

l'l'grr-ttablc that the cx-i;tcncc of' bottino· ha~ to rr large cAtt:llt clecre~nsed th~

number of tho~e interested in athletics.

. ~:\nothC'r evil fcatnrn of the~e betting sho11~ ~s tLat nu:u1y a man ·who is not i11tcrestcd 111 belting is sotnetin1es drawn i11to thr~sc shops because he Ill(' :<ts a friend 'vho is gointr to have a bet and .ask:-:; l1i1n to uccon1pan~ h~. -

From this viewpoint it is to the credit of the Government that they are bringing for­ward such a Bill that is in the interests of the State. Country residents realise that the practices at which it aims are respon­sible to a very large extent for the curtail­ment of the number of race meetings in countrv districts. In some areas there aro 1\0'K no race meetings at all. Although not a betting 1nan, I a1n keen {)11 horf'es and 0n seeing thorn r-ace. Many persons attended the raco ntect.ings of days gone by purely for the love of animals and the sport of seeing them strive together, but they are now deprived of this pleasure. The attend­ance of these people was responsible fnr mnch of the success of country race meet­ings. _\dmittedly there are in the country areas people who are interested in racing, and because there are no facilities for taking part in the sport they are forced to take an interest in shop betting. That is An

important matter, because, after all, the situation must be looked at broadly.

vVo have to legislate, as far as possible, in the interest of people in the country, and 1 believe that if this Bill is enforced it will tend to preYent the population of th<J State from being drawn into the cities and larger towns. It will help tow·ards the success of country race meetiugs, and this will be for the benefit of the State, and will enabl~ country residents interested in horse racing to indulge their liking for it in their own districts. It. must be admitted that the present method of shop betting on horse races, as conducted in Brisbane, is respon­sible for causing many people to forsake the country and come to Brisbane. 'l'hat is to the disadvantage of the State.

The further matters mentioned by the l\linister can be discussed at gre«tet· length 'vhen we reach tho ,~econd reading stage after a pcn!',;t\ of the Bill. No doubt the hon. g·entleman will favour us with a fur­ther explanation. I am wholeheartedly with the Gm-ernmcnt in th<'ir bringing fnrward a meawrc of this description, which can be made to yield such great adyantagc to the State. If, on the other hand, the Govern­ment d0 not strictly enforce its provisions am! are merely attempting to put Jff the e.-il, then the measure will be of no avail and the State will bo disadYantagc'd. Awa}­frcnl1·the-cours·c betting ls increasing in Qtlcensland by leaps and bounds. There aro numbers of people in Queensland to-day who it can be said arc living from one betting shop to another. \Ye, as a legislative body, should do everything to discourage this 50rt of thing, especially as we have such a won­derful State that offers so many opportuni­ties to the people if they will set their 1ninds on son1cthing higher and rnoro nscful lo society than th~ eYils of. gambling the n1ea.sure 1s dcs1grwc .. t0 cnrttnl.

l\lr. l\lOORE (Aubiuny) [12.34 p.m.]: I was very interested in listening to the speech .cf the Minister this morning, and from hrs manner I am quite satislied that the practice that he has latelv had in nmateur theatricals has improvecl his tee h­niquc cnonnous1y. He said quite a number of things as though he really meant them. It was refreshing to sec such splendid acti11g-.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLir 1NSTRUCTIOX : You always gave me credit for sincerity.

l\Ir. MOORE: No. Then we had the Premier con1ing for\vard and giving us a homily 'lr a dissertation on the evils of gambling-, vested interests, and the necessity of keeping within the law. After the experi­ence we ha Ye had for years past of the brc'ak­mg of the law and the way the hon. gentle­man has acted since he has bee11 in power, I rather Q·egan to \Yonder whether I was in l'adiament or had strayed into some other place.

Mr. KAl'iE: Church! (Laughter.)

At 12.35 p.m., J\lr. GLEDsm; (lpsn·ich\, ono of the panel

of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chair­man in the chair.

Mr. MOORE: I admit that I approvtl very heartily of the Bill, and I think it is very cleverly drawn. The Government havo constructed a very nice barrier, and have endeavoured to sugarcoat the pill by saying that they will reduce the price of admission,

Mr·. 1}Joore.]

1774 Racecourses Acts and Othtr [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

provide better accommodation at the racc­cour3C'8, and institute a 2s. ·• tote.',

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC IKSTRUCTIOK :

That was not said.

;}Ir. JYIOORE: The Premier said he had been in places in othPr parts of the >Yorld "here thev had a 2s. "tote," and he believed the san1c ihing ~bould orwra.to here.

A GovERNc•IE:\'r ME>lBER: That is not m the Bill.

Mr. MOORE : I cannot help it if it is not in the Bill.

::\1r. M.uiER: You have not seen the Bill.

:\Ir. l\IOORE : All this is some of the sugarcoating of the pill. The reduction of the betting tax and the provision that people going to the conning meetings shall pay ld. betting tax and those who go to races shall pay ld. on the flat a,ncl 3d. in the paddock are only adding a little vanilla. fla..-onring to the sugarcoating. .And, of .course, the man who punts shall not. pay. >tS the bookmaker pays. \Vhen I see a, bookmak:Pr driving out to the racecourse in a very nice car and I go in a tram I am sa tis!ied that he knows mor" about racing than J do. (Laughter.)

::\lr. T. L. \YlLI.I.\liiS: And has ha.m and turkey for Christtuas ! (Renewed laughter.)

l\h. MOO RE: Well, I ha.ve not had an -lppcrtunity of having Christmas dinner \Vith hin1, .so I do not kno,v.

\Ye have heard the Premier blking a,bout garnblins· and itn anti-social evils, but if hon. rumnbcrs will 1·ernember, a question was asked in the House the other clay about a.llowing " bingo " and all these Liberty .Fairs wo .seo on vacant allotments at street corners. rrhe ~Iinister said it \Vas for a.n educational purpose. Ecluc 'tional! It was certainlv educational-as cclucationa,l as hear­ing sorrre hon. members giving their testi­mony about betting this morning and to hear the Premier talking abont the restric­tion of gambling and the growth of ves"ted in ten "ls in illegal betting shops. Yet when \YC allow perrnits for these Liberty Fairs t.hroup·hout Que\~nslaud and in the suburb,::; of our city, which arc in full swing until 11 o'clock and 12 o'clock at night-and 75 !ll'r cent. of the people around them are \\Ornen and childreu-it 1nakL's llH! think thel'c is a good deal of humbug in his suggestion. Why should he need to suggest starting a, ·?asiyo? _\~Ve have ca~inos, although, very J:rdr!Icrcrrtly run, in almost all the suburbs to-day.

..:\ .t"urth, r :-3Uggc::;tion in favour of supprc~­sing S.P. shops is that the ln.w v ould be brought into contempt if it is allowed to b<c t1outecl any longer in the way it has been all along. Ha.ve not the laws 6een t1outed, not only in gambling, but in all carts c..f rcsr1ect:S for years past'? A 1nagistrate in the conrt the other day was calling a.tten­tion to the fa.ct that three penalties had been imposed on one individual and none of them had been enforced. He said, " \Vhat is the good of bringing people before me if the la.w is to he flouted in this wav ?" He said, " This is the fourth time this" man has been before me; three times penalties ha.-e been inflicted on him. and none of them h:ts been enforced. \Vhat is the me of my attempting to ca.rr:; out the law if it is .flouted in this way?"

f Mr. 1vloore.

:'vir. BEDFORD: \Vas that an S.P. prosecu· tion?

~Ir-. MO ORE: Ko; it was a, tra.nsport prospcution, but it ·does not matter whether rt is a prosecution for a breach of the Liquor _\et or an S.P. prosecution, or a prose>cution for a breach of the State Tra.ns­port Act and Regulations. I a.lways have a great aclmira.tion for that sta.tement made by the late Premier, ~1r. McCormack, in this House, that his duty was to administer the la,w, and if the law was bad it was the duty of l:'a,rliarnent to amend it. He said, "It is my duty to a,drninsiter it, no ma.tter on whom it trea-ds," and I think he was perfectly right. My opinion is that if the Go.-ermncnt ha.-e a law they cannot adminis­ter, it is better to amend it in such a way that it can be a.dministered.

lt is OllC of tlw worst things that can lwppun in a democratic State to allow people to a growing contcn11)t of ihe hnY, and to that it doc:'i Hot 1natter. ar:d [t <:ln be- beokcn with irnpu.ni.t,·. \Yhen th:' ho11. HH'Jllber for F Toovvoorn ba sugge~tcJ that I wondered I 1ras in church. thc_re carae to n1y rnind the prayer for ·· UJO..:.e who indlffcrC'Htlv adrnini:::ter jnsticc:." I (_)tLen think hoi, n~nch thi.~ i.ndiHcrf'rd: achnini .... tr>.tion 1nean:~. CPrtainly it bring:-; aL,-HJc a YCl".Y undc'Rirab1c condition of affa-ir:-::.

:Hr. Pov. ER: You know a good deal about d1~lt.

l\Ir. :1IOCmE: \Yhat? ::\Ir. PowER: Indifferently handling ju:-tlce.

::\lr .. \IOORE: I know nothing beyond what :·e~1d in the Jailv PrcH and vthat I

!Joar, and what I see "around me daily. We agrcu with the Bill arrd with its objects. hut I am .-cry cloHhtful whether the whole of the Bill will he administered. I quite believe that the reduction of aclmi~sion charges and betting taxes and the establishment of another tohlisator and the compulsory pro­,·ision c•f better acconunodation in son1e case" will be carrit:'d out, but I arn rather sLeptica) "'to' ·het her tlw Hill will be a·rlminioterecl in I he way that has been forecast this morning. \Y,, must just wait and see.

:\o ciH~ conld suggest th"l..t th0re "\Ya::. not in tht• adu 1 1L~.tc po\.t'l' to a nutdt control of t.hjs PYil. Prt'-UllC'l" von could dr1Yc round th:•

cih~ on anY S:J.turcLn- afternoon and 8CC' to Yv1n:tf cxtc11t~ it. has iro-.~-n. Uf conr~(' it has gnnvn. It ha:~ been ::;tated opc•nly. a nt..l giyr l1 in cYiclcncc that the police were' at one place .-irtna.lly controlling the irnf;~r of t.hc p~oplo P'Oing iuto the bett:ng .s 1 !0~h·. Tb·_• Lcn. me1uber for :Ualbv. in thP conr~c c: h7.s f'viJc-nc0 b~·fnr<:' the ro\·tl cmntn 1~ ~~on. a~l::('cl T'i-by <J.Ct!on had not LCt>n LLkut. ttnrl apparcntl.Y rll(' rt '1;-:;on \q1.;; tl1c1t ir ·was o!l]y tit:~ plaln-clo1hc~ ::;qnrrd that l1.td b'C'!l told o1f for that particular work. }t i~ cxtra:Jrdin._try that a unlfonned policc·nvtn eo .trolJiug traffic in aud cut the dw11 did Lot h the power to .,top \Yill tit'

arise nndcl' thi·· n:n-t~1at squacl mu.'t tc told o{f to do thi ..

or tlwt it rnu~t rcn1ain undone? Ur \\:11 Le p:Ht of the ordinary duties of tla! ') I :nn quite willing- to give the !J: 1 of the doubt to the Government a.s to their nnxictv to control what is undoubt­edly a gTO\Ying evil, and I trust that now 1 h~lt tL<?;r han~ ,qct their hand2i to the plough thev will not look back, hut extend their atL~ntion to "bingo " fairs.

Federal Aid Roads [26 NOVEMBER.] Agreement Approval, Etc., Bill. 177 5

Thl' vcstC'd interests CJpf'rabng in fO n1an.v part, of the city haYe grown astonishingly. \Yith thcrn ga1nbling is encouraged even with the ~n1allC''~t coiJJ:-;, and the·)· op~·rat1: 11ight after night and da:.- after day. The: rca~m1 givl•n ;.s :::<irnpl,v that it i~ an ensy v;ay of :sC'cl..u·ing fnnJ~ for a. political pt11't.Y --·-ullder t1H~ cxcnsc that it i.':l in th(' c:1.n~e of eclurahon! J-low can anYbod· h:tYf' n1uch faltlt in th~· declared intcut~ons of a Govern­rncnt that haYc continuall:::· given perrnits for thes0 lnPans of gan1bling throughout ~he leng-th and breadth of the State in order to secure party funds' \V ill the· GoYernment that allow these restrict other illegal gambling operations? One is legalised because the Attorney-Genera] g-ivf'S a permit for it. but the other is legalised through the ctpa!hy of the GoYcrnill('nl in enforcing the la'r.

The SECnET,\RY FOR l'cnuc IKoTRtTTION: \.,..ou lcgal:f:ed the •· Ciold(_'ll Ca:3k('t.:'

::,;ooRl<:: \Ye dirl, Lut it hac! to Le if it had to be carricJ. OJL Per­

T do not agne with it. and I-t\'

dcfinit!'l\T. but Lh0 :Thiini:ter tllotild nnde-.\~tancl tlw.J !h0sc t.hing· eo.n not lJ'~ l2cidecl OH rhe opin-ion of one n1an. J

hd;en• Uwt thrrP Ul'P bettt·r I\'UY~ of raislng 'Tht> Premier ~~~id d1at all rhe morH'Y·

\Hl~ allti-.sociaJ the to rob nHul-v pcovle

nt of Oil' w:t~ r:Ot of rnoral 'it· tn tllf' com1nunit•.-. Jlc flaid that Socialists (·o;_tld not ::'U]1purt" gambling, yet the Socialist } ) <1 d _v ha-~ hcPu '"u pported all the time out of a fm~d built up Uy this n'l'.\' lllPthod.

\',T(' ·will lH'lp the (~oY('rnnH'nt to pas:-: th;~ B\i!. Ha1ing cl.OllC eo, all tlwt "-e can do 111('11 1. ill hP to \T•'ait a !Id f,C'e if the:., an•

out

u, rhi lltcrlll1ls:'

:! (l1nini.;;,tr·rcd. If it is ndn1inistPrcd as ParliamC':nt evi­

dcntlv desires it shollld be. I will take back all that I >.aid about the Minister's capacity for ~ ding.

Q1:f~,tion---" T1wt tlH~ rf':::oluticll1 iJir. ('rJ'JjJ r·~, ll/O{;·o.,J lw a,..n'f'l1 to ·;~pnt n11d passed.

The Home resumed. Thr" TE;1.JFOR.\RY CH.\JB~I'::\ rcportod rhar

iltc Corun1ittee had cnnw to a IT··olution. :~C' olution agreed t-o.

FIHST HE.'Dl~G.

The SECHEL\HY FOR FCDLJC I:'\­STR CC'l'IO:'\ (Hon. F. A. Cooper, llr' 1 u·) prcocntcd th, Dill, and moYcd-

" That the Bill be no\Y 1-c<1d ilr~t tirne.''

que tion ]lUt and pu:;;:-.cd. S•'l"ond rt· Hiing of tbP Bill 1nad( <Hl ( h'cler

of the Day for to-morrow.

FEDEIL\L AID .ROADS AGREE:\IE:'\T ";\}:!::~OV !~L ACT (FGRTHEH AGREE­~'ll""' T) 1HLL.

lxrnHrox rx Co:wnTTEE.

(.lfr. Gledson, lpsvich, one of the pan(/ of Temporary Chuinncn, in tl1e chair.)

Tlw SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YOHKS (Hon. lL .A. Bl'Uce, The Tab[,land) [12.52 p.m. I: I move-

., That it Is desirable that a Bill bo introduced to authorise the execution

bv the State of Queensland of a draft further agreement between the Com­mom' ealth of Australia and the State of Queensland in relation to the con­~tniction reeon:;;truction, maintenanee,, or repair of Federal Aid Roads in the said State, and to approye, a dopL a uthorisc, and ratify the said further agreen1cnt as finally rnadP a11d oxccute·d betwe;,n such parties, and for other pur­poses.

The object of this Dill is to giYe power to ratify an ag-reement made between rbe C2uc-cnsL.nd GoYernment and the Federal GoYcrntne11t. I-Ion. mcn1bers are aware that during tl1e recent Premiers' Conference held in _A_clelaide a fresh agreement ''Tas drawn up under "hi eh the Stale will receive from the C't>nlnion\-realth a larger part of the rcYentk• r<:ceiYcd frorn the petrol tax. Thi;;; ltlOnev i;;; to bt~ tbC·d for il!e con;;;truction of roadS: includinf!: the construction of acce~s roads t-J forestry arpas.

_ , r :'11 1 HEH: }] as the agreement been signed by tllC' State; yet?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The- Con1111onwf'alth de:3in·.;; that \YC should pa~:;;; thi~ Bi1L I rcreiYcd an urf..;ent rn('.:::sago frPnl the Colnrnon\YPalih GoYcrnrr1ent thJ.ongh the PrPrnic-r to haYe this Bill pa:--;:;cd so that th,, ag-reement conld he ratified. I takP ii· the Cornmonwc.dth GoYC'rntnr:nt ~~:;:"'ulncd that this Padinn1cnt rnight not meet again before J unt.• of next yPar. Con­f;C'QHC'lltl.v, the.v \vnnt the agTC'€!11Pnt ratjfied b:, ih0 Yarious States in order that it may l1e made opcratin_•. So far as ~~:c r'an judge, UlidL'r i l11:• a~2.TCCrnPnt Quf'C'JJslanJ ·will rcceiYc an additi~n.nl grant of approxi1natcly £lOO.OOJ annually.

111·. 1\IOORE: Is it a greater percentage of th0 petrol tax? The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Ye~. Th1:~ Pren1i<'r assurocl hon. n1cn1hC'rs tlw other da v that he was not one of the Premier thact stipt.datcd that this grant 111ig·h~ bP ~1scd for othPr purp.::- -;;c-Fi. \Ye pro~

"· i11 Yic,Y of the provisions of the exist-·_\ct. haYe the \\·hole of this moncv

tn the :.\]ain l1o2d~ Con1rni~s1m~. giYf~ ns 8on1o hold on it. At a

if tht• UoY('fnor in C'onnci~ decide; tlmt arJv nart of this should be USCcl for [ll;rposCS othpr than ('Oll-

~truc.:tion c:f main roudc;, snch as -ron:;;.tructing arce'S roads to forcstr,; area~, thnt. body wi11 take po"·er to allorale the amount roquir·ed. Personally. I am qnitP in accord "-ith tho oxprc' .. ,ion of r>pinion of the Commonwealth GoYernnwnt~that part of this grant sLould ho used to road.:: to aeroclrornes. That \YOrk can (·a rri0d out bv the :\I a in It.oads Cominj:;:sion, which \Volllcl be the proper authority do ,o. :'\aturalh-. people 1Yho u~e aR \Yell as the o·· uers of Inotor launches, use petrol, and so arc entitled to ~ome con:-.idcration. Thu proportion of petrol tax allocated to the St.ate.3 should be used cntirclv for the con­:-.tructiun cf n1ain roads or U"ccp-.;s facilities to aeroclrmncs. the cncouragcnH•nt of traclo enr-aged in b_y r11otor launches

1 and in catc-r­

ing for other fq,cilitics when~ petrol is w;:cd. Tl1en the lEers of petrol wbo p1y the lax wonld han' lesi objection to r1aying it.

Tlw rcsolntion before the Committee merelv pmvid~R for the ratification of a new Federal Aid Hoads AgrPement. The agrcc1ncnt is for ten years, and during that

Hon. H. A. Brnce.]

1776 Federal Aid Roads [ASSEMBLY.] Agreement Approval, Etc., Bill.

tirnc {, uecn~land will receive approxirnately £7,000,000. T take it that nobody has anv objection to that. iLanghter.) I think every lron. rncrnber realises tho need for proYiding greater facilities for persons '''ho use motor cars. Desr1ite an5 argurue11t to the contrary, the US!' of internal combustion engines is incrca:;ing; consequently it is essential that increased facilities shonld be provided. \Vhcn l nttendcd a meeting of the Loan Council last yeur with the Premier I took the opportunity of lnakiug representations to crtrh State ::\IiniRter in control of rnain roads that he urgo that a greater percentage of the petrol tax be paid to the State·. I do not think there is any more useful \vav of spending n1oncy than on the constructioll cf main roads. 'l'hcy open up the country, ihey grre ace:, '"S to the raihntys alld sea-1JOarc~. and afford useful mnployincnt to largo nnn1ber,o; of 1nen, bv virtue of wl1ich rnuch JilOHey is put into clrcnlation, anc1 the State

nd C nnruc.nwcalth Treastll'ies receive a hr-nefit by rncans of income tax. I an1 plL>a'"-Pd ihat the Cornmon wealth Govern­ment ha,·e made additional money available.

A sugg0~tion has been made that main roads c'h-oulcl be built in places where they ,,, uld b'' u~cd fm ddenCL' purposes, There are man:> area~ in the State, particularly in the :>.Jorth, where roads built primarily for ddence [lllrposcs would be of great advan· l '?'L to the [WOp]c for other purposes.

The Commonwealth has allotted the funds '"·ailablc on an arca-popula tion basis. If the allot1nent were n1adc on a population basis, a Stat0 like Victoria would be at a great arlvantago, and one lik_c Queensland at a great di·~advantag-c; but the area-population ba.-,is gives QuL·onsland that rnca.sure of j tbtice to which it is entitled. and as our popu!atinn is growirlg to a g:re:tter extent th m that of any other State we shall get an inC.Tl'asiHg adYantagc.

_During the sPcond reading stage I will grye further inforn1'ation if requested to do ~o. I think everv hon. n1mnber realises that this Bill is in the interests of the State as a whole>, and that Queensland is getting something that will be of gr~at adYantage to us.

At 2 p.m., 'The CHAllOL\X took the chair.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) [2 p.m.]: The Secretary for Public \Vorks has been kind enough to make a copy of the Bill available to me for a brief perusal. It is not vet available io thB Committee. I am gla"ct he did so, because I found it somewhat difficult to follow the motion on the lmeiness-shoct, in which it was sot out that the Bill is a Bill to-

" approve, adopt, authorise, and ratify the said further agreement as finally rnade and executed between such r)artios, and for other purposes."

That agreement will not come into force until lst July, 1937, and at first sight it appeared to me that it would have been preferable to allow the ratifying legislation to stand over to the beginning of next session, when the agreement would have bBen signed, sealed, and delivered.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: This Bill is actually giving us power to ratify it

.at a later elate.

[Hon. H. A.. BTuce.

'1\lr. MAHER : 'The hon. genth,man has statNl \\'hat is contained in the Bill. Power is ginn to effect the ratification of the agr0en1ent, which w111 be signed, I pre-­su!nc, at a later date.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBI.IC vVORKS: That is correct.

::VIr. :MAHER: And the Commonwealth Government, anxious to have the matter finalised, havo asked the -:\1inister to bring £onvarcl this legislation this session. This is now being clone. That disposes of my introductory point.

The Bill is >1 good one. It is plea,ing to know that the Commonwealth Govern­ment have decided to make a further sum available for the purpose of main roads construction and tnaintcnancc in Queensland. There is no doubt that the Federal Aids Hoads Agreement has proved a great benefit to tho State. It 12encfits Quoensl<wd to a greater extent than any ether State, inas· much us the geographical factor of area is takf'n into ac,..ount in arriving at the sun1 to be made available. This means that owing to the enorn1ous extent of Queens­land a greater proportion of money is allot­ted to Queensland per head of [lopulation than to Victoria or Now South \\'ales, both States with a gTcator population but with smaller areas. Queensland thus benefit:, \cry considerably bv this agreement, and large sums of money have been received in past ye,ars fwm this source. As I said in this ChambN when dealing with another Bill, the Country Party influence in the Fecleral Gov<>rnment has boon responsible for this agreement, and consequently for the sums of monev that are to-dav made avail­abie to the "state Governm~nt. This is clir, ctly due to the in!l nonce of the party that I ha.ve the honour to lead in Queens­laHd. rrhe Country Party, recognising the n<•ecl for road dovclopm"nt and the pro­grc:-sive deYeloprnent of runtl areas.. was tho influence th~t resulted in this principlc:'s bPing first acloptccl, the principle that money shall be made availablP h-om the rcccipl,; of customs and tariff duties on the import-a­tion of motor spirit.

Many people complain about the exces· sive petrol tax. 'I'here is no doubt it is heavy, but if the whole of that taxation were used in roa·cl construction the motorists of Australia would not complain. The logic of an argument like that seems to be impres­sing itself upon the Federal Government, and it will be a hard fight to induce them to forego any of their customs duties derived from petrol. I suppose there is no more obligation on the Commonwealth Govern­ment to forego som0 uf their customs revenue to the States than for the State Governments to allow portion of their revenue to be spent amongst the local authorities for the con­struction of feeder roads and by-roads. There is a disinclination on the part of Governments and Treasurers to let the taxes they collect go to some other authority, but the Commonwealth Government have remitted large sums of money to the States from the source of petrol taxation to enable a progressive road policy to be developed. Last year the Queensland Government receive,d £522,433 from this source for the purpose of road construction and main­tenance throughout the State. Obviously. this large sum of money has been of incalculable benefct to the Main Roads Commission and the people of the State.

Federal Aid Roads [26 NovE:YIBEH.] Agreement Approval, Etc., Bill. 1777

It seems a great pity that the Government -ever interfered with the Nlain Roads Com­mission's trust funds and transferred £250,000 per annum to 0onsolid1tted revenue. If that money had been left in the funds and added to this substantial contribution bv the Federal Gm·ernment from the source of petrol taxation a very fine fund would haYe been created, irrespectiYe of the loan expenditure altogether. Our progressive road construction and maintenance policy could have been consistently pu1 ~,ued, und would have afforded employment for fl

greater number of men in our country dis­tricts. Prc,,ent circumstances indicate a yery grave risk because of harden8d rates of interest occasioned by the scarcity of ioan funds, and dunng the next two or three years loan money may not be easily obtained for road con,truction, and many of the road schctnc.s that have been prepared rnay not be proceeded with-at least not with the spflcd that we should like. vV e may have to fall back more and more on the special funds that are collected for this purpose. If that comes to pass-and there seems to be every prospect of it, because the T1·casu.r~'r l1as issued a warning to local .authorities a bout the tighteniug-up of loan fumls~·thcro will be a decline in road work. VIe aro coming back to the point where the Government first decided to transfer this £250,000 per annum from the trust fund of the J\Iain Roads Commission to consolidated revenue, and 1Ye havo to con~ider tho conse­quential diflicult position that we are approaching. It will be a sorry day for ns all if that progressive road policy is ever curtailed. The action of the Govern­meHt in transferring £250,000 this year from the trust funds of the :Main Roads Commission to consolidated reYenue will cause us some difficulty, and the follv of the action may be apparent to us soon-er than we expect. It is now estimated that a sum of £600,000 will be received by the Stato frcnn p·etrol taxation sources, and this. togcthn with the sum transferred, would lun,• provided a revenue fund of almost £1,000,000 that could ha vo been devoted to road collstruction and maintenance ,,,.ork. I fear the position that may arise in con­sequence of the Government's unwise action in transferring these funds.

The Bill seeks to ratify the new agreement about to be signed between the Common­wealth and State for two years, commencing .fr?m 1st. July, 1937, and by it the States wrll receiVe an increase of ~d. a gallon­making the State's receipts 3d., as against 2~d., a _gallon on imported petrol, and 2d., a1:3 agan1st l~d., on excise petrol. This m<moy i,; made available for road works and forestry, ~tnd the Minister has informed us this morning that provision has been made for the expenditure of money on access roads to aerodromes and other defence establish­ments.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \VORKS: The Federal Minister has included th~tt pro­vision in the Bill in the ConnnonweaHh Par­liament.

2\1r. l\L-\HER: The stipulation seems rea­sonable enough, and we should be prepared to agree to it. It is important that there should be good roads le&ding to defence establishments and aerodromes, which not .only have a peace-time value, but may, per­haps, possess a real military value at an .earlier date than we contemplate. I hope .that the money that the JYlinister assures us

will be handed over to the Main Roads Com­mission will be used for road construction and maintenance, and not for public viorks such as those provided for in the agreement that might be done by other States.

Th< S_CRET,\RY FOR PLBLIO WoRKS: Forestry .should real\:~ pay ~otnething for the damage it docc;; to our roads.

Mr. MAHER: That is a moot point. I hope that the Minister will &dhere to the ddinite principle involved in this agree­ment. and use the money for the purpose specified.

The Bill is a good one, and it is pleasing to see that the State is receiving this money, despite all the condemnatory references to the Commonwealth Gov-ernment and the sug­gestion that the Commonwealth flourishes at the expense of tho States, which we have heard from time to time from the Premier and others.

Holl. members opposite might take into acc·ount the rnagnanirnity of the Cornmon­o,ypn,}th Gon~~rnrnent to,vard) the Stat\_'s. I prcYiously pointed out i1~ this Cb3.nrbt'r, ~-hat last \ (_ ar the Queensland GoYC'rnn1eHt receiY('d a t0ta1 ~un1 jn 0-x:cc ~:.; of £2,000,000 frorn Cornn;on\Vf'alth reypnuo.:s. in cl uclin~·. of cou re e. the rnonc·v naid jn accordance itb tho FPdcral ~,\id iRoads AgTecrncnL This VE':ll'

·we arc to rPccj, e a sun~ in s~ of £60v.C'QQ for road construction frmn ConlnlOil\Yt'alth Go cnnrrcnt. Therefore. hon. m.ernber~ opposit" cntiCIS0 the C:Hnmonwealth Goven>-nwnt rgain and that, the> are :Aouri:·::illjng· at the expense of State. they shoulcll'c fair a.u:J tuk0 into acrount ho\v a.nxions the Cotn­mom\ ealth Government arc to meet the lcgiti­rnatc rcf!uirerncnts of the State so far_ as t-heir O\Yll urgc'nt needs \Y.iH allo\V. ~1:H_l th? the_,- arc prCpared to co-ovcrav~ \Ylth the State 1n the n1atter of road develo;)~nt a,_, \Ye hew pleasure in supporting the BilL

Question-" That the resolution (Jir. lJntct.'_, motion) be agreed to "~put and pns::;c'--1.

The House resumed. The CHAHDIA:<; reported that the Commitwo

had con1o to a resolution. Hcsolution agreed to.

FmsT READIXG.

The SECRETARY FOR Fl'BLlO \YUHKS (lion. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland) presoul cJ the Bill. and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first time."

C~uestion put and passed.

Srrcxn REAlHXG.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \Y•,IRKS (Hon. II. A. Bruce, The Tableland): I moYe­

.. That iho Bill be now read a Sll'ulld

tin1e. :' Question put aud p2.ssed.

COMMITTEE.

(Jir. Tfan.<OII, Buranrla, in the chair·.) Clauses 1. 2, and 3, as read, agreed to. ".'~'chcd1'lc "-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. H. A. Bruce. The Tablelancl) [2.23 p.m.]: I moYe the follmving amendment:-

" On page 4, line 54, omit the ,,-ord­' including '

and insert the word­' excluding.' "

Hon. H. A, Bruce.]

1778 Motor Vehicles [ASSEMBLY.] Insurance Bill.

The wor-d " including" appeared in the draft agreement receiv0d from the Common­wealth GoYernmcnt, but a telegraphic com­Jmmication has been received from that Goyernment advising that it was a mistake, rrnd the word should be "excluding." Tas­mania rcceiYed 5 per cent. of the fund in the first instance.

A1ncndment agreed to.

Scheclule, as amendPd, agreed to

Preamble agreed to.

The House resume-d.

The CRHJnlAN reported the Bill \Yith an an1endo1ent.

THIRD READI1'iG.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC ·woRKS (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland): I n10Ye-

" That the Bill be now read a third tin1e."

Question put and passed.

:\IOTOR VEHICLES INSURANCE BILL. lNITlATION lN Co;nnTTEE.

(Jir. Ifunson, Iluranda, in the chair.)

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STHCCTlOX (lion. F. A. Cooper, Bremer) [2.26 p.m.J: I move-

,, That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to require the owner:; of n1otor vehicles to insure aga]n::;t their liability to pay compensation on aecount of injuries to persons caused by, through, or in connection with such motor vehicles, <-tnJ fo~· other purpo.:<e;j.''

l'hc Bill that I hope the Committee \vi!! give; rno authority to jntroduce is not a Yery intrictte o11c, the purpose of it being to Clblll'C that people who arc to-day legally liable in the case of an accident ,hall ha__,, the wherc\vithal to meet their !Pgal liability. ..c\s hon. nlcinbcrs know, there ia ~uch a~ thing as third party ri~k. Sorne pcoplo cover then1solves, and :'3-0lDO people clo not. It i;:, not an infrequent happening in this State to have accidents occ:ur for which the Ychiclo is rcsponBible, but alth0ugh that is so the position of tho mvnc>r of the ..-ehiclo js snch that the injured party has no po :>ibility o£ recovering the dan1agc caused by the accident, for which t~~:; o1Ynor i3 lcgttlly responsible.

Mr. MooRE: Does this apply to the car or the driver?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC -lN­STHUCTlON: This will apply to the owner of the car, i:;_-rc~pectivo of \vho i3 driving it nt rho t;111c a11d 1:vhethc•r he is driYing it with or withcut authority.

:\'Ir. C'LW'l'ON: If he ha, a certificate of COllllwtcn-c.; ?

Tlw SECHETARY FOR YCBLIC IK­STRt:CTlOX: If he is driving- a en r without a certilicutc of co1npctency ho is absolutely 1inblc. That goes \Vithout saying. I know hon. rncinbc·r.-; opposite will be n1ore con­ccrn(·d w:th the question of ownership than an-vthing else. I can assure them it is pro­poSed ~ o 1nake the definition \vide enough to t·oyer all tl1c people who should be C•}Yetcd.

:\Ir. :\IOORE: I wanted to know whether you had to take out u. policy for each (Iriver.

[IIon. H. ~1. Bruce.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: Ko; the owner takes out a policy and that coYers everybody who is likely to drive that car. It really ;s upon the car and naturally upon the ow1wr.

The interesting part of the definit:oll of '· owner " iB as follows.-

" 'Per~on' includes any company, corporation, partnership, or firm, or body of persons corporate or unincorporate

1

nn-d any indiYidual person;"

I think that is wide enough to cover every­thing. \Ve haYe heard lately of a case where it \Yas i1npossiblo to recover dan1agcs by reaeon of the fact that the person in charge of the car at the time or who rout d the car wa., a man of straw and had nothing with which to pay. I think the measure will cO\-er that completely.

It is proposed that the insurance ahall be effected lw the State Insurance Commissioner or an a1ithorised insurer within the State. rrhat terrn covers all those insurance offices that are regiatered in tho State to-day. Before the Commissioner of :O.fain Roads can grant rogictration to a vehicle ilnd before it ea n be put on the road. the person desiring rcgi::'tration or rene,Yal of registration must produce a certificate from the Insurance Commissioner or qualified insurer that the coyer hae been taken out. The Bill, there­fore, will proyidil that the vehicle and the owner of the Yehicle are properly covere-d by iu.sur.ancc before it goes on the road. It is not left to him to insure a fortnight or a month afterwards.

The policy taken out must be for a mini­mum amount of £750. 'l'ho maximum aznount has not been fixed. 'The insurance:: may exceed £750, bl!t, of courac, although tho amount is perhaps arbitraril} fixed, it is the amount payable on death for accident in industry. It >ma thought that £750 was a fair Jninin1urr1 a1nount for thL' insurance policy.

Mr. :\It;LLER: \Yill that apply to any type of car?

The SECRET_\RY FOR P"CDLIC IK­STR"CCTIO::\' : It \Yill apply to any type of Yehicle that is motor-propelled.

N[r. l\LmER : Good, bad, and indifferent ? }Jr. l\1ULLER: £750?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I::\'­STRUCTION: £750 is the minimum iusur­n nee. 1 cannot gi YG hon. rnCinbcrs any infonnation as to rates of insurance, because that i. a matter for the Insurance Commis­sronel' uncl insurers to Gx for therns0lYes.

:\Ir. ::'\Il'KLTN: They haYe reduced their present rate.

Th,, SECRETARY FOR l'UBLTC 1::\­STH"CCTION: I am arh-ised that because th('l'C \\ill LL' a large increase in the nurnber cf policic-" it will enable tho prcrniurns to be cow•iclerably reduced. It woul-d bo wrong for nw to speculate as to vvhat that arnou11t might be, but I am ad l'iscd that with tfw greater nu1nbcr of Yehiclc ~ that will be coyerNl the' premiums will Le much l' ci than they are.

The problem of the visit~ug motorist :-tri~'- :3. l can assure l10n. nH~nltJers it is not l ho ·cksirc of tho Government to do any­thmg likely to prevent the tourist or visitor from comin~- to Quecnoland. X ew South \Yalc3 and \'ictoria haYc no such Act. I beli~ve that South Australia is the only

lvi otor Vehicle!' [26 NovElVIBER.] Insurance Bill. 1779

State in the Commonwealth that has. New Zealand has a similar Act. In order that no ha nlshi p will bo inflicted m· no impres­sion crC'atL~-1 that we arc making it more dilficult for the tourist to come to this :citato, the Bill p1·ovidos that a car coming from another State by road shall have libertv in dw matter of insurance for ono montl;. I believe that at present there is 'l 1.·cciproc tl agreorrwnt bebvecn the Cmn­lni~·,ioncrs of IY1nin Roads in Queensland, :\ C\.' South \Vales, and Victoria as regards ''c•gistration. and that the period for which a Yi~itiug car n1ay rornain in a State without rogiBtct·ing is li1nited to six weeks. It is felt that, a.s rcgard:s insurance co>:er, there should be freedom for one month. Consc­quentl~L an interstate Yisitor can rnn his vehicle on the roads of Queensland for ono rnonth without dTecting an insnrance. \Yu thought that would be >L. sufficient gesture to Yisitors aud touri::;b; that we had no desire to inflict r~ny penalty on touri"t cars fron1 m·er the bord!'l".

J\I r. :\IAiiER : In other words, they will be Bxempt frum the prm·isions of the Bill for one month'?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC J:'{. STH."CCTlO:'\: That is so. Then, of course, auothcr vosition ari~cs, and that id in regard to 1nolor y,_,hicles in use in border to·wns such as 1\lungindl, \Yallangarra, or Coolan­gatta. There are cars in rrwocd Heads that run back lll!d forth to Coolangatta all day, and to all intents and purpose,s they are as Jnuch Oue(:nsland as New South \V ales cars. but -the O"\Yners being dotniciled in ::\"cw South \Vah''", have effected regjstratlon 111 tl1at Of course, the reciprocity .accorded not last for eyer, and in this Bill it is proposed that there shall be a iimitation to those who come in for business purposes--

'\lr. "'\L\HER: What is the nature of the limitation?

1 "" SECH."ETARY FOR PUBLIC 1:'\­~THl ~CTIO?\: The provision rea·chs-

" ... having entered Queensland by nmcl from anv other State which is more than 50 mile's from the border of tho State of Queensland."

That limits the ambit of the operation to thco town in \vhich he may trade.

The other cars come over 50 miles.

:ich. ?IIAHER: They arc exempt OYer fifty tllilcs?

The f\EC'RE'EARY FOR PUBLIC I~­'CTIO:'\ Ye-, to a ccrhin point. \Ye lhar ob,-iatP an\' fric1-iou thnt lJc cau:;cll fron1 irnag1r;ing that B

n11 ~UtL'lllpt to penali''-' f'D.r~ fron1 oth--r

'That Y:rtua.llv COYl~r~-; th0 rne~:;;-!l'C'. I::: J.;;;

net intc'lld('d to do auything C'lf;:._' than I ban:- outlined, ancl 1 haYe giYcn t 1-H' ~-·o

the whole of the proposal. The prjn­bccn di"cuss0d on ver.\· rn:J.ny oc2.l-

in TH_'•s.~paj)f'l'E' alJd thf' Ronll ~\uto1nohilP Club of DllCL all·~ ~ort.- of llrople v;ho are lntcrcstrtl 1_1 :nwtor 11·an~port gcncraJ1y, nnd I tl1ink t1w fll('.l~Un' \vill be a;1proved. H .. e;:.t _ s:'ntation~ ltaYP bct'n rnadc to the Goycrnn:Prn. frmu n1riou;;;: sonrces tha,t a Bill of· ~aturc d10uld be introduced. and I thi11k is one that will tn~ct with. general sati.•faction in !he rnain. I haYe rnuch pleasure in tnoY1Eg .tlw resolution.

:iclr. MA HER (1rcst .liorcton) [2.36 .p.m. J: aru in agrecnwnt vvith the general princil1lc

of cornpulsory thi1·d-party insun:;ncc. ThP!'('

is no doubt. the tremer1dous growth of ntotor traf-Ee lu the State of recent rears. with all the risks attached to it, rnust' be takPn into

when earning to a dc{'lsio11 on f-1., Bill nature. Car.s arc driven recklcsslv

sonlotinH's, there are intoxicate-cl driYcr~ t~o cuntcnd with, and there are all nrann0r of ri::o:l\> \Vherc the traff-ic is dense. l do not t-hink there can be any disagt·ccrncnt '' idr the general prjncipll' of tb is f31ll, a1though [ fcL'l that its c·on1puhory pro\·isions 1vi1l fr1.ll \"er·· hcaYily on the ~boulders of a great tHu~lJcr of 'rnotorist:-) in the inland areas of the State where the risk of collision ,1ml accident is comparatiYC'l""· sn1all ancl in n1nnv places ncgligibf0. " ,

Tl1c St·.t"RETAHY FOB PuBLIC IxsTmT'l'JOX: Perhaps the in:-:urancc cc:nnpnnies vvill r·o•t­~1<1er that.

:'<h. }L\IIE.R: \Vel!. there is no as,m\lti''P

that thcv will. :ic1any poor 11cople own ''""' to-dav, Such a~ labourers Jiving in cou:tii'~· to,;,·n~.· small contractors, bush \Vnrkcr~ of llll kinds. and shearer' Thcv enclcaYOtll" to narclw~e a c·1.r of son1e k1nd. \Yho 1nRkP a surcc ... q of their C'Ontracts, or \Yho get a good run of shed~. 1n;()'ht lH' to hnv a p(nv car~ bnt a grc1t nu1n:wT of la bou1:ers li..-ing in c•ur co-:._ultr.Y to'Y!l~ , brl.', _,,_,~oncl-ha.nd caTs such as ch0ap utih'~I~~'"-­,-,,hicks that might cost horn £25 to £100. It i~ oft~ n n struggle for thc1n to bu~, the rnoior snirit. oils. and ~oare parts as vvell n~ pr:_:' the r,·gi~teatio11 fc0, and if 1hcv ha\·c ~o pay ~.ums ranging- frorE £5 to £10 for cmnpH! ·)r.s in.,urnncc of th0 -vl'hidP, their 1Jttr<1c·n 1:-i

~·oiHg to be yery heaYy .

'The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC INSTm:CTIO:N: Does t.1H• hon. gent 1Pn1an to people th"-t tbcv should re h0uscs against firf'?

"Yrr. '\-lA HER: That is for a man lo deride himself.

The SECRET.\llY FOR PuBLIC INSTRC:CTION: But do ''OU recnmmend that he ·,houicl r,ot:

J\Ir. ::WAHEH.: That is what we mean when \Ye use the phrase "the libcrt.'' of the sub­jPrt."

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC IKSTRUCTION : rJ'hat i:;; his los~. but -when :1, Hlan Of that de--cription, throug-h his negligence, injures another nerson. that is somcbodv dsc's loss. and we ~ro endeaYouring to pro.Yide against that.

:lh. i\IAHER : I am speaking new more parT lcularly of our \vide inland arras •shere tlw ri.sk i::; ncgiig·ihlc. n,~ .a n1an n1ight tra-vel lDO n1il('.'i withor:t llll'l'tillg n1ore th:1n one or t'.,O Ych-:t;lr~ on tln' road.

The SECRE'TARY FOR PuBLIC IKSTRUCTJO)[: Th~1t i:; a, rr~atter for the insurance ('Qlll­

panic'·.

:\h. l\IAllKR: There ~r0 farm ere and ·.sorkt>rs O\vnin&r 2{_'ronc1-hand cars wl10 nedw.lH

not. t:tk _ f'hPnl out of thr-' · lllO!'I_ o-::c:~ a rnonth. To baYe 11n.•T a surn

rc,Jlr~ing fron1 £5 to £10 for eo1npul~ory iu~unu:c<' \;Youlcl rn('an_ a yerv }Jpavv tax 011

tl:al: c]a;<" of the con1n1unitv~ and 'i:he risks do nor warrar:t it. Tll8 :\iini~b:~r has not takf'n that phase of the rntttcr iuto acconnt. I ... uggcst that it would b(~ wise to ndrnit the principle of con1pnlsol'Y in-.:.urance, but only iu certain vroclainu:cl area~ \YhPrc the population and traflic are dense. If Grcate1·

JJ.ir. lvlaher.]

1780 JYiotor Vehtcles [ASSEMBLY.] Insurance Bill.

Brisbane. Toowoomba, Ipswich, Rockhamp· ton, 'Townsville and the larger towns werP proclainwd, I sl1ould agree with the lilinister on t]l(' Dill, but I find it very c!Jfficult to .'ub,cribc to the principle, if it is to apply to the vast inland areas of the State, where people cannot afford to pay the amount involved in additio:n to the registration f••cs and the other commitments with which eYcry car owner is well acquainted. Let the schcrne he tried in certain areas. aud then where nc•cessary, it could he extended. I commend that mggPction to the M:inister, as in that wav tlw extra bnrden of taxation would be im[>O .• cd only where it is reall,· necessary. I agree that in this city and the larger lH'ovincial to\vn;;; of the Stato grave r'·•ks arc run. 'The careful and steadv driver J;irn~eH is ~0111ctin1es the Yictirn of the rC'ek­lc -,.- or drunken driYC'r.

.should like the r.Iinister to tell m if any provision has been made to excu1pt fr01n tlio operations of the Bill motor cat·s and utility trucks engaged solely for primary· production purposes. The Minister would be ·,,·ise if ho could see his wa v clear to accept an amendment to that effect.

'ThP SECl<ETARY FOR .PUBLIC INSTRUCTIOS : Ychiclcs tbat neve-r go off the farm'!

2\Ir. :;}IAI-iER: There arc rnany £ann 1notor trucks that rarcl.v go off thl' farm. and, Jf trwv tra,·el onlv on back road.s to f1c . :-;irling a1Hf neYer trnxcl on a 11win Yoad. There arc hundreds of f'U('h n•hiclc'.s.

'The SECRETARY FOR PuBLic IxSTRUCTIOK: If tlwre is a State rnonopoly the in~urRncr­

Y ould con-.;ider all tho.Jc things,

~~r :,lAH!i:n: I do not think that has a t·n the subject. \Yherc there is a

wi1l j,,. a \vuy. The JHini1.-.t0r. if ht clc::-irrd io help the 1~rirnary producer:-<', rnight at a. later stnge be prepared to CO!Jsidcr a:1 amenlhncnt in that dirC'ction.

If the Minister is going to compel every motori,t in the State to take out a compre· hen<i'ive cover aganist the risk of accident it is only right that the State Government Insurance Office and insurance companJcs should bo prepared to reduce their premium rate, consid.erably in view of the big volume of nev business that will come to them. It "·ot!ld have been very holpful to hon. mem­bers if the Minister, in introducing a Bill to provide for a sweeping change like this, could have given a definite assurance that tl1e State Government Insurance Office and insurance companies were prepared to grant a substantial reduction in the premium rate, because it ·wou]d ha.vo gono a long v;,Tay to\vanls appeasing any di:s,atisfaction on the part of motorists.

'l'hc SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCT!Oc-1: I g·}yc you that assuranr·-' so far as the State GoYernrnont Insuranc-e Offit _, is con­ccrnccl, bnt 1 cannot speak for the imur­ancc cornparue:;.

1\Ir. MAHER : To what extent?

The SECRET.\RY FOR .PCBLIO IKSTRCCTI0:-1: That I cannot say, but a considerable reduc­tion.

Mr. ~IAHER: It all depends on the mean· iug l'f the word "considerable." A reduc­tion of 2~ per cent. would not mean much to ''"'• but if the Minister could offer a

l 'IIr. J11aher.

reduction from 25 per cent. to 50 per cent. v.·e should be Hry appreciative.

The SECRETARY FOR .PcBLIC IxsTR CCTION : Pcrhap' I could ;,ay anything from 25 per cent. to 50 per cent. or 75 per cent.

1\Ir. MAHER: No, a reduction of 25 to 50 per cent. would be reasonable in view of the increa;sed business that Is gomg to accrue from this Bill. If it is to be applied to the "·hole State the motorists in some of the inland area, where the risk of accident is small are entitled to a reduction of 50 per cent. in the premium rate, becauo·c this cover against accident is taken out mostly in districts where the risk of accident Is greater. 1\Iotorists in districts "·here the risk is negligible do not bother. I submrt that the great majority of motor rehiclcs in the Stato arc to be found in the larger centres of population, but if all tho motorists throughout the State-in some areas the risk is small-are compelled to take out tins cO\·er, there is room for a reduction of 50 per cent. in the premium rate.

There is one phase of this matter that I should like to introduce for tho considcrrt· tion of the Minister, and that is that the -insurance cornpaui('"i- who s_'ll ri~d;;;: against acciclt·nt py drivers of motor vehicles give \Yhat is called a comprehcnsiYc con .. 'r up to £1,000, and the premium for that amount in the case of a ncv;· car is £10 per annnn1. ...._-\_ 1notorist vvho takes out such a policy, 'ntitling him to cover up to £1,000, natur· ally expects that ho is covered by the in;:;ura11co con1pa11y concerned up to that :'Ulll, bnt in actual practice it does net \rork out in that >Yay at all. Quite recent]:: one of n1y constituents, a n1an who oecupicd a high public position in the district, ·a· touring in another p-:.rt of the SL.itc ·when a. collision occurr~d bct\rLen his cur and a motor cycli't. The rnctor cyclist received ~cvere injuries ancl Y?as rc!novcd to ho~pital. In clue course he is3ued a \Yrit again ... t th-~ rar O'.nH:r. \Yho in tcrrns of the volicy nrgo­tintod \\ ith the insurance con1pauy itn~olved. T'l1is co1npany had undertaken to provide a mm up to £1.000 in the e\'Cllt of accident. but what happened" Its represcntati,-c went into the position closely \Yith the injured n1a11. ':rho car O\Yllrr, vvho ,, as a resident in my elcctomtc, was told by Hw companv that so far as it '.\as concerned the lim;t of its payments was £500. and it recommended him to pay the difl'crcnc.' bct\.veen that arnount and the an1ount claimed. It seemed that the injured man was prepared to accept £650 in full settle­ment of his clairn. The insurance con1pany refused to budge or go above its limit of £500. I achi,,cd m:. constituent not to pa} auything, a" he \ras covered under his policy up to £1,000. liowever, the rt .. 'pn'~cntativc of the company got hold of him, told him if the mdtcr \Ycnt to law he might Ios~, !hat the costs \Yonld probably amon11t to :£10J a day, that the case might last four or [jyc clap, and this miglrt mean that with tho Yerdict and legal expensn.; £1.500 wot1lcl be involved. He mid that in that event tiJ'.' imurer would be called upon to pay the amount in excess of £1,000, the amount of the COYH. The point is thiP: The company conic! haYe settled that legal action on a comprcmi>'o basis for £650, wh'ch wa. IF'' than the amount of the coy er.

:'.ir. liTSLOP: That does not ,,a:· much for the priYa.tt· insurance company.

~~ otor V ehicle.g [35 NOVEMBER.] Insurance Bill. 1781

:VIr. MA HER: I do not sec any difference in the policies of any of the insurance corn­paniCs.

The SgcRETARY FOR PeBLJC INSTRuCTION : The company believed that £500 would cover the compensation for the injuries suffered.

J\fr. MAHER: The injured man thought adfercntly, and my constituent was covered up to £1,000. The company could have paid £650, which would. have terminated the claim.

JHr. GLEDSON: You advised your con­stitncnt to insure with the State Government Insurance Office?

Mr. MAHER: I am not prepared to say that th< State Government Insurance Office would not have relied on the same point.

Mr. GLEDSON: No, it would not.

Mr. MAHER: No ono knows what would ha.ppen.

J\Ir. IYATERS: What do you suggest is a way out?

:\Ir. ]',IAHER: The way out I suggest 1s that when a co1npany u11dcrtakes to give a cover of £1,000 it shonld be CJmpcllcd to stund up to its agrec1ncnt. There rnust be no 1< iJ,·al point involved. The senna thing happclls w.ith l'OSTlCct to fire insnTance. An insurer illsnr('s his house for £500. A fire occur~. and the r-epresentative of the cotn­pany comes along and offers him £150.

The SECHETARY FOR Pc:BLIC IxsTRliCTrox: Thev offer an an10nnt c "rnn1ensurate with the ·damage clone.

:1lr. 1\TAliER: \Yln does Hl' compan? accPpt his premiums 0;1 a £500 cover baeis?

The SECRETAHY FOR PcBLIC IKSTRCCTION: I hrard you speak on a sirnilar 11rinciple on the \Yorko1,' Compensation Act Amendment Bill. but vou adopted an cntirelv different attitude tlien. · ·

Mr. l\L\HER: I did not. The insurer's hou~e is burnt do , n. 'rhc darn age is done. Tl1c hons{' is gone. Th£.~ cornpany ace pted each year a prctniun1 based on the payment of £500 for total destruction.

The PRE.\IJE[{: Are you arguing that in the ra..o of oven· accident the xesnltant claim should bo sc'ttled in full ?

i\Ir. :1L\HER: I have ju.t explained to the Committee that a man holding a cover with an insurance company to the extent of £1,000 was involved in an accident; that the injured man was prepared to compro­mise. for £650; that the insumnce company offered £500 and advised the car owner that he would have to find the difference, d0spito the fact that he \Yas covered up to £1.000. Finally, the car o•.mcr, l'il lh, r than take the ride involved in legal proceedings, paid £100 against my advice. I told him he should have aJlo,ved the claim to be fought and take tho chance. This car owner paid an annual premiun1 on the risk of £10, believing that if an accident occurred he was coYcrcd up to £1,000. ~\n accident occurred, a.nd the instlrance colnrmnv offered a lesser arnount than the a1nount claimed, which was within the cover. \Vhv take a man's £10 every year, deluding l1im into the behef that if an accident occurs ho is fully covtrecl up to £LOOO when that 1s not the case?

The PRE~IIER: The injured person is not bound to accept 1vhat the insurance com­pany offer~.

Mr. MAHBR: The insuraroce company offered £500 and the injured person was prepared to accept £650. :Yiy complaint is ou behalf of the car owner.

The PRE~HER: There rnu~t be an assess­ment of ll1Jury or damage, whether in regard to \Yorkers' compensation, fire insur­a.nce" or aceident insurance. Y.le are giving the cpurt po1vcr to assc~s if an agreement cannot be arriYed at.

:11r. "';1AHER: In this Bill?

The PRDliEH : Y os.

Mr. ~IAHER : Is it a Supreme Court llrocecding that is referred to in this Bill?

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC INSTRuCTION: All (']aims over £200 can go before a judge.

Mr. }>IAHER: Frequently YCQ groat expenditure is invoh-ed in these court pro­ceeding'' \Vhen both parties are in the rnood to rnakc a con1prorr1isc it is de~irable that that should be done.

The I'RUIIER: It is the old story of who did the injury.

Mr. ~T \HER: The point I am making i8 thEt ,, hen a co:mpany cover~ a car owner for £1,COO and takPs his pn•r11iurn each year L:'n that ba~i.-:. antl ihen vYhen an acr::idc11t

afTer-; £500 in full settlement. although injured pcr~on i~ \Yilling to acce11t £650,

anJ telL th~~ in~ured pcr:':Oll he must pay the arnount ('\'Cl' and aboYc £500, it is an l':-i:traorcliuary state of affairs.

The SECHEL\RY FOR PLTBLIO I:\'STRCCTIO:\: If he ','·as wllliug to pay iL Tho insuranc·e company said, "'There is a clause- in our contract tl1at says \V8 wlll pay the dalnage \YC think was done. If you want to pay n1orc than that you ca.n pay it yourself."

:\Ir. :VlAHEH: Unless the court fixes it.

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC Il>STRCCTION: Then tlw conrt may fix it.

:\Ir. MAHER: If that is the cas<'. 99 per ee~:t. of n1otori~h who pa . .,T £10 thinking I hey a re ' Jn'rc>d to the extent of £1,000 are Pa:7 iu(' their rnon0y nnc1cr false pretences becansc ihcy haYe not that atnount of prot~c­tion.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC INSTRUCTION: Ye". the;.- haYe-if the da1nages are up to £1,000. You cannot scratch the paint off a tHan's car and do £10 \Yorth of clamaQC<' "·":l gPt £1,000. That is not in~urance, as I understand it.

JHr. ~IAI--iE.R: The Insurance con1pD:ny ttxcs the rate. Tt saye, " \Vo will not g1vo r'tore than £500 although we covered. you for £1.0]0.'' The injured man \Yill taJ:o le" than £1,000, bnt it will not pay him what he claims.

The SEcRETARY FOH PuBLIC lNSTnccTro::-; : Because the company thinks it is too much.

:' lr. :\1AHEH: If th0 court awards £65:) [t would ha,-c to pay it,

The PRL\ITLH: The point i::-;, \Vho is going to aHess t lw damage ? \Yhe ro there is a di~putc the-re n1u:-,t bo a legal asses')or.

Mr. J\1AHRR: The court would act in the final analy';is. According to equity, if an injnrccl man is prepared to accept less than £1.000 the companv should pay it; if t!H'v will not pay it they should go to a coart for determination. In the case I

Mr. Maker.]

1782 1'vf otur Vehicles [ASSEMBLY.] Insurance Bill.

nH~11tioned tho con1pany forced rny friend into the po'ition of having to pay £150.

The l'RDIIEH: \Vhat vou have in vour mind is a condition in the ·in::;urance rontfact.

:>.rr. i\LH-IER: Yo-. The PHE:'IJJER: If car O\Vllf~rs do not rea,d

Lhcir policic, they ilnd pitfalls when tho ca~r ccc-nr~.

i\fr. ~-LUJER: I believe m this prin­<'irJit•--~-

The• PHE\IlER : According to you there Ott::tltt to be a clau~e in this Bill to COYcr anv loophole• that n1ight ari~c through a dl~­honc~t iu.;:urance rornpany. Is ihat your 11oint?

1lr. l\IooRE: It mav bo that the insured tH'r:'.on cl a inl:::; n1oro ihvan he is entitled to.

}lr. ~.L\I!ER: I believe in this principle, IYhcthr•r ap:)l inl in this Bill Ol' anywhere

: that if a cornpany take.::; 1ny pre·rniurr1 { ,•tu· anrl lead~ mo to lwlicY(~ that I au1 , over" "l fc1· £1.()00 in the ca>e of accident, ancl I a .1 liable for less than that. the com­pany dwuld stand the brunt of it. A fire in~nrance ccmpany that ac<"cpts premiun1s ';C<xl' aftL'l' yc:.r on the fire ri~k of a house

.. for " CP :t~r of £500 shonld honour the amount set fodh in the policy if th:. t house i~ destro~-Pd by flr£'.

The PHE~liER: If one insured a hand for £1,000 and lost a finger one should receive a.s compensation the proportion of the total amount that tho finger repre;cntcd to the whole of the hand.

::\Ir_ "vL\IIER: Undoubicdk That would be a. fair thing. ThPr·e jg sovn1cthing to act as a guide there, and no doubt in the ca•e of injury tl1lore is something that will guide the courts. I do not intend to pursue the ma.tter further. but I haye in my elec­torate a Inan vvho "\Yas the victi1n of this sort of deaL He >Yas certainly pretty sore about it. '"1d if I ,.·ere in his shoes I should be likewise. The company would pay only £500, and he was called upon to pay £150 of the compromise arrangement. The total sum was less than the £1,000 coYer. Much iil-feeling e.nd sense of injus­tice are caused by thi' sort of thing.

Mr. \VATEHS: \Vhat is your wa.y out?

Mr. MAHER: If a company undertakes to pay up to £1,000, and a settlement can be made for less tha.n that amount, the company should meet the amount of settle­ment. If a compromise can be effected for less than £1,000 the company concerned should pay the amount a.greed upon. If it is not prepared to agree a court should be allowed to decide.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. gentleman ha.s cxhau·,ted the time allowed hin1 under the btanding Order~.

i\lr. I'LUKKETT (;ilbcrt) [3.2 p.m.]: This is .:. rather important Bill, ami concerns residents in the outlying part of the State. It is quite easy for a GoYemment in a city to thiuk that an action of this sort will meet »·ith tho approbation of eYery­body. The Government may think that they must protect everybody from himself, and consequently make owners of motor v€,hicles in~urc \Yithout rcaljsing tho full sign~ficanc0 of the effects of the measure and its ramiG­cations. The Minister has informed the Committee that South Australia is the only State in the Commonwealth haying a. similar .Act, although the Dominion of New ze,._-

(Jh·. JY1aher.

land ha.s an enactment on similar lmcs. I understand that thero is no such Act in New South Wales and Victoria. It appears to me that as the Government are pa.ssing legislation compelling persons to do certain things that will cost a certain amouut of moneY. thev should be in a position to give some" indication of the cost. All that will be gained by this Bill is that the owner of a motor .-ehiclc must show to the pohce a policy of insurance containing third-party risk to the minimum of £750 before he can obtain a certificate of registration. Tho Dill ,,tojls thoro. lt is left to the insurance con1panic..,_ to fix the rate of prcn1iurns payable. It appears to me that on the one hand kg,islation uffccti11g ho~pitals and health and similar things comrll'h the farmer or landowner to pay, but on the other hand, wlwn it comes to obtaining benefits frorn somebody e1~e, tho iixa.tion of the amount payable is left to that somebody else. Jn this case it is left to the insurance cornpany. \Yhcn the GoYernnlCnt arc put­ting through legislation cornpclling per::on~ to insure, it is wrong that the insuranc; com­pany should havB the power to fix the rate of premium payable by the insured. I hav·e not n1uch syrnpathy with the insurance cOin­panics, bccau:::e iu rny experience I have known of a compa.ny's accepti11g pren1iurns on a fire risk for ynar~. and when the risk wes ·destro0ed it di~l not pa}· the amount set fmth in the policy. If I had the power I would con1pcl a.ll insurance cornpa.nics to pay the full amount of the policy when a total loss was suffered. That is only fair. I kno·w of ~everal cases \Yhere ins.urance has been paid up to tho value of £3CO or' £400. aml when a total loss occurred the company offered about half. That practice has grown up since the establishment of tho State GoYernment Insura.nc~ O!Iicc.

L:uckr thi' Bill 'Y'' arc going to rompd c·\·cry1·od \~ Yd!o h;:t :.1 lllOtJr Y('hicle to in:-:urc. \~\TP, do ~l()t 1-:!;fr· wh~tt it w1ll co._.;t hin1. t;llcl \YC' do uot. ,~. rnT\' about the effc('t it will lur•c'. I .~tJcak OI~ Ut'half of tltc pCOlllP

];,.;;,,:• in the ·connlrv. The idea of third , to protect those '" :10 cannot

l11C --t T;; ith an accident Ill(L~t people will

of accldcllh hatJpC'n the resorts or on the roads hundreds of Yehidc·s in country are ncYC'L' drin:-11 on a n1ain road. vet thi Bill is voing to corHpd the O\Yner~ to~ insure them. Dome of tlJO:-c vehicle;., are u::-Pd. pcrhap3, onrc a week to cart c dYes or pigs into the sale~

a11cl apart fron1 that are used jn work. This Dill will COlllllC1 tl1e

O'.YIJ{'l':3 ot suc·!t YPhiclo . ..; to in:-.ure again-::.t third party ri, ~~ -that do~'S LOt exi.-;t, and vvill itll]10 0 a tcrrif~r harcbhip on rnany of thf'lll. =\Lo:-t of tlu~ ~;c~·oncl-hancl {\trs tltat arc so!cl

i11to the bcca.:J.SP thL" peopl.: tl1cn• .ufforc.l to lJuv now

{ Jr~ a~d here in one ~tftt>l'llOOJ~ .;~-c are to conqJPl then1 to insure a~:rin-t

or ri:-k thnt is not there. The r.;inister ohould be rc•rto:cmaulc. If lw

\Yant.s this pri1JcipL.; to operato in the cit,y or in the large C('llt re:;; of popu1ahon in (<ul'eusland h~ "-ill ha•ce my support. but if it is to be- ruade applicable to cvcr.v hole n11d rorn:__·r in (~uccwdand, 1t 'lvill r11can a. great hard . ..;hip to nu1ny p~~ople. Th0ro ~ hould be sonw cxPrnption fer country peop~e \vho ovvn vch icl( 0

-; that are never brought into places >rhcrc an accident is likely to

}vf otor Vehicles [26 NOVE.MEER.] Insuran~e BiU. 1783

OC('Ul'.

insi~t out

It :;.t\Prns to be go~ng to exL·ernes to the e pcoplo should lmvP to tak."'

for a rninirrwm of £750. In connr-cbon with a qnestion ra.i~ed b:­

thc LcndPr of the Oppo'ition about di~putccl e1aim.c;;:. the• :11inid('l" said, " The court \Vill fix that." I-io\,. n-;any pPoplc ca11 afford to f(O to the conrt' They \\Ould nthcr rut up with all nrts of difficulties than attempt iL

I repc•at. again that Uwre should be son10 C'X('lnption for country TH'Oplc ownin,9: Hlotor vd1iclc"" IYho IH'Yt.·r ("0ll1>::~ ru .1..r ~" town, hut uo;c their VC'l1icle~ ir! thl'ir fann work, ,,TJ-wre there js no nrolJabilitv of their nlcet;llc;r 'vir ~ an accident "·ouch as u;at CcJntemplated LIV the Bill. .

'The PHE~l!ER: It clocs not cuvn the l'i"l r u:-:.0d onl:y inn 1nan'" 0\"\'11 prOfh:>rty.

Mr. PLL"J\'KETT: If the procluct ;, the; ~"OU hai"C lo take it to the nHtrk~t.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IxsTRUCTION: There is a \vid_e;;;-.prcad imp1·e-:s~on that ym_: arc- saf('l' in thi~k traffic. bccan~e of t1u Pxpcl'icnf'f' of th0 driY('rs. th:'l u jn the lon0tv hu l1 roarh \\-lH~l'C thn dri\-crs haYL' J1ttfc cxperi('nre.

::\I1~. P.TJ::;xr.:ETT: Th-. ae<:idcnt.:; d'J noi ~liO\V thilt. Thf'y hapllf'il ju 1-11P ('ib.v ,') 't tl1c casidn rc,orb, Thi> Bill, althi•u:rll at fir~t ~~lanu; it :-. f'lii"' io r·onf('r 8 b'ncfit. unon a nun1brr of pcop1P. ·will be an inju~tict~ to nnothor ::::r"tion o; t!H' cmn:11Ullitv-n. :--crt~on th!lt. ln 11!.' opinion. i:-:; lf'~s <lhi(' ~to lH'CU' tflr• e':I){'Jl' ~ atH~ ·will get no lwndH frorn lt.

:.rr. P. T~. COPLEY (Iluri1p(f) f3.Jl p.n; J: I rn1 Ycrv !'11f'a_·('r1 that th:s .11~11 t-·t..;;

introclnrorL Ill thf' fir· t mcrch I i hi.< Chamhr'r I achocatc J ;mup"Ji,orr th;r:l" p:-~rl-v in~nr[!nf'r, and aftrr h arinQ." t1lf; Lt•"c!.'r of the nppo.~it1on and the l1on. ;HC'n:h~'L' i1o has ju,-t h~s sPat. I nrn HlOU' tlwn ever that thi, Hill i' alJ'ulnt•h IlC'CC':"ar~~ that lt ~hunlr1 nppl:v to c · part of Q1F:cnsland and to cver,vbody 'J~1., n ""~,'Phirlr-.

'The lmn. nH•n1bcr for Albert c--t1(1 rh:1t: at the nrr' C'nt tin:p ,c;c. ourl-11< ·-d Cll'S .,, p;·o h inn·

us0d out~ide nf bcuHl"'(' p0oplt• tbc-·r·~ could not n.fTonl r.o np·,y Thu_t in it~elf sho"Y\TS that the cars u~Ni in districb aro not of the

jn the citv The Yn1v >hould J<ot

countrv road hn_\·c as hn '.ou!d"have in the cite" :hat there arc \YOrkei·:;;; in the cotlntrY arc forced to wrtlk a long ('0\lntr · go to tLcir \York. to and fro:-n their can1r•o: o;· l)lacp'.; of rrsi.dt:ncc. Slll'('ly th0y ar0 entitJcd L) :<om0 mrn~nrc of 1.f'rot':'rt·1on ! The yn·e· minrus are not. vcr~~ hl'W\'::·.

:";:,., l\lAHEil: \Yhat arc the:v 1

:!lr. P. I(. f10PL~'{: \Ye 1IaY·:> he"nl th': m!FC"C>hon of £10 for £1.000. bnt the '~Iin;,t,'r f'a~~~ that ii "·ill not be an~~thinr!' like EvPn if n rnan ha~ to pay £5 a ye· [I r. worth it for th0 protection he has If n r('l'~On is the 0\Yll('f of a good ear. f'hould lt be rnn into bv a JWrson ·with an old rattl0-trrrp. llllcarccl-for. ~('Concl-lun~.J c-nr nnd srnasherL and v:h•." should the other clriycr g·pt :t\Ya'' with it? On the other h~tnd. \VhY

~liould rlot the ,,·ealthy person be• eoYercd b)r insuranc:e <1gainf:'t acridont involYing· anotbPr person? Either fro:-rt the rich rnaJJ's or tlw poor n1an:~ point of Yicw it is c-;:o;cntial that there shon1rl be son1e insurance to meet the ca5e. The poor man might not be able to

take the rich man to a court of law. but if the in~ur;~nce L" there he will say, •· Let the insurance con1pa11y pay it."

I agrc0 to a rons:d1:•rable extent v>ith thL' point raieccl bY the Loader of the Oppo5iLion. thouf(h not on the actual issue that he r0ised. Although the policy may be for £LOOO, thP ('0D1pany ha~ a riglJt Of JO."S a~~~ c,SillCTit and Inn::· :;;ay. " \Ye \Yjli pay £500. or yon fight thi~ ln thn court of la\Y.'' If the pc·r~on i~ Hot prepared to fight it in tho court to SCf'

'\Yhethe1· the in~uranee C'Oinpany's a ,c:;;:qor,;:, nye rig-ht or 'vrong, 110 hi_msclf 1vill be liable for the w1rlitional amounL

I am definitely against the inmranee corn~ panics' referring matters to arbitratJO? a~ frec1ucntly as they do" In my professiOnal capacity I have fonnd that in a number of cases the cost of arbitration has been infi~ nitclv heavier than the cost of a Supreme Cour't action that would have lasted almost a week. The sooner the Government look into the qUestion of car insurance generally and the conclitiotJs that apply, the better it will be for the public in every >Yay. I could refer to many matters in this conneetlon, bnt they are quite outside thn scope of the Bill.

I an1 glad that provision js eoutaincd in tl1c Bill to lnrlude taxi clrin~ri'-i. J\lan~ IPCl''­

~on" n·lt,, h:l\·P l:_'t'n iHlll!'C•1 b\' taxi dr]yers and haYc cndcavourN{' to ob.tain dan1a.ges from them haYe found that they were only 111011 of straw or tha.t there \Vas an alleged agreerncnt between the O\'\'llCr of th0 car and the person actually driving it to the effect that the latter lmd the car m1 lure fron1 thP former fl·orn dav to clav or on a C'Ollln1i'cion ba.'3iS. rrhc"B~ injure'd_ persons \Yere not ~tble to obtain any darnages frorn these negligent drivt~rs to compensate them for Ios~ of enlplo:vment or p~Lin and ~uffer­jl: ·r. T}ll\ proposal to make the O\\'ll!:l's of the cars liable for any damage that may be caused tln·ough ,·tn arcidrnt a.risiug from the nef!ligence of the drivers is a very good one.

I a1n firn1h· of the belief thut c\·erY tlri,·er of a. motor 'vehicle shonld be comp.ellecl to take out a comprehQn:::iYc co1·01'. and that he hould produce the policy bdore ho can obtain a {'C'rtificato of competency or regis­tration. That proposal will help to deal with the persons mentiuned hv the LearlPr of the Opposition. If a. driver of a motor vehicle is habitually drunk and has been rcspousible for n1otol· car accidents thP jneurarnce con1pany concerned will Yery seriously comidcr whether he is a good "or bad risk for the purpose of a comprehensive policy, and if it concludes that he is not a. good risk it will refuse to insure him" That will mean that the ·driver will be unable to obtain hi;, registration or certificate of cotn­pctoncy. This will help tho police very con" :-;iderabl,y. Ther,-~for,e) I believe it wil} be \Yise to provide that ihc insurance policy shall cc produced before iho certificates of regis­tration and competency are issued. That ·will exercise some check over the rcekiess and careless n1otorists, and driYing ·will become safer as a. result. I wholeheartedly support thr' Bill.

Mr. NICKLIN (Murmmba) [3.18 p"m.]: Personally, I am in favour of third"party insurance, but I do not !mow just how the Dill is going to affect motor vehicle owners in country districts. 'Ihird"party cover is desirable from the point of view not only of the owner of the vehicle, but also of any

J}Jr. Nicklin.]

1784 1t[ otor Vehicles [ASSEMBLY.] Insurance Bill.

person who may be injured in a motor car accident, but we should remember that at the present time the premium rate for third­party cover is far too high, and that it is going to be a burden upon primary pro­ducers. I have just recently paid the cost of resistration and insurance on n1y own motor car, and I can tell hon. members that there was no change left out of £15. So that the burden that will be imposed upon the primary producers, viho use their motor vehicles principally for the purpose of corn·eying their produce from the farms to the railwa·.- stations, will be vorv consider-able. " '

Mr. GoDFH!CY MORGAN: \Vhat was the cost of insurance in your case?

Mr. NICKLlN: About £6 12s. The car is insured for £275, and l have a compre­hensive cover for £1,000.

Mr. Nnnro: ·would not £100 on the car be quite enough?

::\!Ir. NICKLii'\: I prefer to have a little bit more. I should favour third-party cover generally if the premium, ;ate >vas reduced to a reasonable figure. I he ~lnuster, by way of interj action, asked if we did not all insure our houses against fire, but 1£ we could insure motor cars at the same pro-. miurn rate as -\VC can insure houses ngainst fire we shoul·d all insure our motor cars. I think that flre insurance on hou::;cs is about Ss. 4cl. per cent., vd10reas the cheapo,<t pre­mium rate on motor cars j, about £4 10s. to £5 per cent. That would be a considerable impost on the primary producers, especially as it is in addition to the fees for registra­tion certificate and drivers' licenses for him­self and, perhaps, ono member of his family.

The Bill rnakcs prov-ision for a minimurn cover of £750. \Yill that coYer completely protect the iusnrcc, or will he ho liable in an action at conrnlOll la 1 ,' fo1· dan1agcs in cxrcs~ of that ar:nount '( Cases have been quoted where tho insuJ·cmc" company lodged a dPfcncf'. For oxantplc, an insured pc1·;;on knocks CL pedestrian down. He is co\Tered for £750. An action at law is taken again~t him and he is muletcd in damages to tho extent of £1,000. He would be liable for £250, the clifl'orence between the amount of coYer and the amount of damages awarded. If this Bill is to be a complete protection for the car owner it should provide thac the amount of cover will protol.lt him from whatever payment ho might be called upon to meet. The Minister mentioned the diffi­culties surrounding reg-3.stered car owners tn1wlling: int rstate. The Roval Automobile Ciubs, at' their annual confer'Encc at Perth, discussed the question of third-party insur­flnce and came to the decision that any Biil mtrodnccd in ono or two States to cover third-party insurance would not be entirely effective. 'The conference suggested that a. proposal be made to the Premiers' Confer once that a uniform system of third-party insnrancc should be adopted for Australia :-u that tnotor oar owners would bo coYered in whatewr State they might be travelling.

.\nother objection raised to third-party insurunco is that it n1ight create a feeling of carcleconess among certain drivers. Per· sonally, I do not thiuk it would, but the possibiiity exists. \Ve know thero are somo Ycrv carelDss drivers. If these are covered by 'insurance, and they have the belief that any damage caused by them is provided for, it might lead to their becoming even more

[2l-l1·. NickUn.

care!oss. Those of us "' ho ha Ye clriYen on country roach in pa.rticnlar hav.e very often had to take to the bush in order to escape son1e rt'ckloss driver "-ho ants n1ore than his share of the road. In this connection it "·ould be wise if the :YJinister inch,ded ,;ome prov1s10n in this Bill whereby a driYer's license \Youlcl he cancelled auto­matically on conviction for certain traffic ofFcncu. If an insuntnce company is called upon to pay claim aftPr claim against one driyer, I claim that man is not entitled to be allm' eel to drive a motor vehicle.

Tho SECRETARY FOR P l'BLIC I~sTnl:C'rrox : Such perwu \Yould find it difficult to get a compn,ny to give hirn this protectiou, and having no policy, he would not obtain regis­tration.

Mr. :'\JICKLH~ : That is one of the most ccscntial featur'' of a Bill of this nature. It should onmre that a clrin>r convicted on a charge of drunkenness whiht in charge of a motor vehicle, or other serious traffiu offencn, cannot scr:ure insurance, as such a lTilln in charge of a rnodern cae is a menace not only to. himself but also to eYcry fJerwn on the road.

I do not know whether the Minister has included in this Bill some time limit in \vbich a clai·m ran bt: rnacle; that is to S-lY, to limit the time "'ithin which a person injured in an acciJ .ut can claim ~tgainst the insurer. It is not right that a person injnrecl this w0ck ,;houlcl be able to make a clain1, say, t\velvo months hence.

I nn1 of tlw opinion that clain1:-1 in l'('spect of accidc.Ets f::honlcl be h{'ard before .a judg witlrout a jury. ;:)oulc decisionB that have lH'en giYcn by jurit"o.:, particularly in regard to {'1aiins arising ont, of 1notor car accidents, cll~arlv dcn1on:o:Jrate that \Ye ~honld be rnon~ likely. to gt~t ~ corn~et ac.:.sc~;nncnt frorn q.

1vithout jury than fron1 a judge a jur.;.

Althonv,h I favour the provision for third­part: in urR'lOP, I think that before the Bill · rlu ~Iinistcr ,c.;hould get in touch

the in:::uranro compani0s with a view to a~c _Tta-ln]ng 1Yh.1t rate would be charged for a comprehr•nsi-vc policy of tht') IHJ,turc that the Bill makes it compulsory for motor owner to t1ko ont. I think there is need for a r0rluction in tlw rate" charged for comprPhonsive thinl-party insurance policies. If thP present rates are to continue when the Bill is in operation it will mean a serious handicap, particularly to country people, especially when one realises the compara­tivc1v :::tnall rl~k of .accident so far as they rrr 'ConrcrncLl. ,

1\fr. GODFREY MORG A:"i' (D 1/l)li) r3.27 p.m.]: I uught to be pleased that thi,s Bil! is being introduced. and I ~hould acrord it n1y l\·hole-heartPd support, br.:canse I think it will cause a lot of people to g-o back to tlw horse. There is no doubt this Dill will cctus(~ a lot of pE:oplo who no\v d1·iye Inottn· car.5 to get rid of them_ 1\J any f arrrwr3 vvho are struggling to 1nake cHds 1nec-:-, wlll not b<l able to pay the £10 a year for insur­ance that they may be compelled to pay under this Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR Pc::BLTC IxsTRLCTIO.'l : They ''-'ill not have to pay that amouut.

l\lr. GODFREY l\10RGAX: The Minister is not in a po3ition to say what it will CO>t. Before introducing- this Bill he should have conferred with the in.;;ura.nce companies and

Motor Vehicles [26 NOVEl'IIBER.] Insurance Bill. 1785

asccrtainrd what tho cost would be likclv to ho. an cl then wo should ha \"O known oxO:ctlv vdlere we stood. The Th1linistcr 5ays it 'vilt not cmt £10 a year; but I >a:· it· may cost £10 a Yoar. Q,·nors >Yill ha.-o to insure u;1 to £750, and I do not know whether an~~ insurallf'C con1pany vvill be prepared to charge loss than £10 a year for a policy for that amount. The charge will be parti· ('Ularly hca.vy on the country rwople, as then.., are 1nany fc\\Tr accidents in the coun­try areas i han in the city. The f1gurcs jn ihP po.,c;c•ssion of the :Mai'n Hoads Commis·

would disdosc that the grr at majority [J ccidents occur on good roads. Tt seems

to be~ an cxtraordinar:.- thing that there arc Inore dr:a.ths and 1norc people arc inju::·cd a~ a l'Pi:nlt of rnotor caT af'cident; on bitu.-llH'n and concrete~ road~~ ihan bu;;:h road.'3, the rca,son be!ng, of rour.:~e, good i'O:l<L arc conducive to sr)Pccling .aiH1 it is the ~pcrd hog vd1o is r_~pon::-;ible for n1o.::t of the c~ccidetn ~- J\1 n who a l'C rnor2 or 1<'~" under tlw influence of drink t.hink thev cnwht to 1Je t'ndeaYon.ring to break record~ ana they cot out 1o do so. 'vith rhe result that ]Jrob·

::-:on~,~ poor unfortunate individual who 7"C?i!1!! alo11~ _at a JnodC'ratc ratP <Jf :;;JlC:<c1

IS h::diC'd or Hl.JLHed: Ol' cl-:P the ~pccd::<.tc·r ru.1s off t~c road and kilL:. or injures hirn­Sf'lf. nnrl the otl1cr unfortunate people wiJo ma:· be traYcllinr; with him, The people ,,_·ho arc contJnp·~lly us1ng the country roads know '"j"'r<' the bad spoL ftrc. and if thov traYel at the rate of twenty or (>yenty.five rndr an hour th<~y fccl the:\ an' 1naking good progrP ... ~. Because such a 1nan is not tra n'lJin~ at a very high rate of :3pccd he l1as hi" car under control .and the sur­facr of thP country roads enables the tvro;­t~ gr!p >Yhcn the br~kcs arc applied. 'But tnat 1s. not the po'ltHm on roads emfaeecl Wlth bitUmPn or eonrrrtA. on which there I!" ah\~ays th0 ri:;;k of .skidding. There are a grf'atp;· number of ac~·idcnts on ro~ld~ t!1'1t arc YJrti;.Hlly ~pePfhvay,,. than on countrv ro,acls. 'llw ngurc.s taken out bv the Co:·;_ mL"' 1mycr of l\Iain .Ro_ads conclu~iveiy proYP that _ttJo ~rreat :ma]onty of accidents o .. -crJr on ~11ghy;·a~Ts that. aro rf'r-~:rdcd n·:.:. p0rfc<·i" b: the n1otor car clrjYer.

The Government m:e not wise in forcing motor YehJcle owno~·s m the country districts to pay th1s taxat1on. The better method would be to proclaim districts in which the .\et '>" oulcl apply. The proclamation should be confined to the cities and towns and l1lorc dcnsel:\ populated areas. In a great nu1ub r of ca'-'es the motor vehicles owned by farme1 .. , arc run .only to the nearest rail·

ay _,tat!On anrl bark home, and then only occaswnaUv, but these owners will haYe to pay the same amount pf prc1nium as is l"lnposcd on a vehicle driYen in crowded strc~ 'L~.

Tl1o PRDITER: As a matter of fact, one needs to be a better driver on bush roads tba11 on good roads.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: That is not altogether right. A bush ·driver who can clriYe in tho bush can driYe in the city. but a city dri.-er on a country road would get into bog holes.

The PREmEH : That is what I said. It is more difficult to driyo on bush roads. One needs to be a better driver in the bush than on good roads.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA::\: A city driver, although med to negotiating intersections

and cross streets, will get into difficulties on a country road. Naturally, after a couple of weeks he will become quite profici<'nt. On the other hancl, a bush driYer can drive on bush roads an cl except for nervousness and perhaps a lack of knowledge of the traffic by·la>YS can drive in the city, to0. I remind the Minister that there are a great ntunbPr of fanners who aro to-day in financial difficulty. Certainly, numbers of them mvn motor cars, but they may be the last cars that they will ever possess. This Bill will force thesr, people to pay a certain amount of rnoncv in premiurnf' on their cars, a•ld ,,-lwtlwr it· is £5 or £10 it will be a hardship to them.

The SECRETAP.Y FOR P!:BLIC IKSTRI:CTION: 'The hon. mernbC'l~ fc,r Murnnnba E':t,id a number of people had coyercd the·'nselves already.

"\Ir. ::\fC'ICLIN: I said I covered myself.

"\Ir. GODFHEY "\IOHGA::\f: The farmers al"e alrea-dy adYersely affected b:v dr:T seasons, and dair--:T fanners on the DoiYnc: haYe had to borro,;· monPv to pay for chaff to keop their herds alive. Yet the Go.-ernment inrposc conditions up<.'~n them cornpeiiing them to pay a certain amount of money to in~uro their cnrs.

1\lr. ::\DDIO: iVhrrt if thev ha,-c 2.11 acci. dent' How could tlwy afforc!' to prry for it'(

1\lr. GODFREY MORGAN: \Ye have had motor cars in Queensland for thirty years and haY<' got along quite well without legislation of this kind.

The SECRETARY FOR I'uBLIC IxsTnrcTTO~: You ha Ye not beou knocked down yet!

1\lr. GODFHEY :MOHGA?\: No. 1 takP good care to 'vatch tho traffic ''Then .c,-oiiJg acl'Oc·') the streets, cspPciall:v the big trncks. J slwuld not like to be knocked oYer b"· a t J'uck-I would sooner bo knoekcd OYer bv a hon'e and cart. If I hH d shares ir1 an iu~·ur­n.ncc con~pan,y I rn1ght support thi~ BilL hPutuse it might bri1Jg rnorc IllDllf'_\' 1nto n1y (;Wn pocket. but I huYc no inter(~~t. in ~,r;~nr­~tnce <..:on1panys Dnd I hold ~.o brief for thnn. The point I want to rnukc is th3.t. tl1c Govt~rn­rnent are iruposing a certain ca:ih pcna~ty 011

people that they cannot a!fmd to p '"Y· Are tlw GoYcrnrnent going to p;iYe iht'Hl tirn" to lJay ]t in instalrnents, inste<.td of iu a ltnnp surn? \Vill they 111akr· som0 arrangc1neut wherc!F th8 amount can be dcdncted £1 at a time out of their cream cheques'! That is hcin~~ done for the Ltrn.1er who ]s bolTO\Ying monC\' free of intt~rc"t fron1 the GoYe:-_·nnleD(; tbron:~·h the factory to keep his cattk alive. hut on top of that the GoYcrnrnoEt are askmg hirn to find ft cPrtain a1nount of 11lOlH'Y to pay insurance on hls n1ot.or car:

Tlw im;;urancc cornyJanic.'· arc very careie.-.~ in allo\Ying IJc.Ople to insure their cars or house.s or property for a grc~t deal 1non• than they are 'vorth. If a d12honcst man insures his car for a eertain arnonnt, sooner or later there will be a fire. an cl. not" ith· etandinQ' the' fact that he h~.s been paying pn'mi,;;JS on a £500 policy, the company YYill clldP~\'our to pay out only £250 or £300. The company should honour its re,ponsJblh· ties to the full amount. The same applic·s to house insurance. The con1panie :l do not m a kc in'·;p -et ions ycry often, and allo :: people t!) in..snrc thl·ir hon.scs or propert~. for greater amounts than they are '"orth.

the ~linistn will take notice uf c;aid about th:> ~mall farmer. [f

Mr. M organ.]

1786 Motor Vehicles [ASSEMBLY.] Insurance Bill.

the Government left the matter of enforcin" this n1easure in abeyance in regard to countr~' di:-tricts or proclairned only certain districtd for the time being and hrought the others ln latC'r--

1\ir. \VATERS: Does the hon. member think that £2 a year would be a. great burden to the farmer?

11r. GODFREY :'lfORGAN: Will the :.\linister accept £2 a year? If he• .ran ,. •t bi~ COYC'r of £750 for a prcn1iun1 of £l a year it will be all right. bc•t I am unclPc· the in-rprcs~ion that it v\:{11 be £7 or £10 a YL'ar. 'The hoH. !~-:!C'rnbe>r is onl:"' guc~;;;1ng. ~ Th(• hon. rPcrn!~fr f:r :::Y1urrtuuba has t-•ld th 1\-h-·t ho had to pay.

Mr. PO\,.ER: He must be a reckless driver.

. ::\1r. GODFREY MORGAN: Although he Is msurcd tor onlv £275 his policv cost-; him oyer £6 a year. ~ ..

Mr. IVATERS: He is being exploited.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: At that rate, what ,. ould be the cost of a £750 policy?

Mr. \VATERS: It is olwiou• that tho greater the volun1e of insurance the lower the pre1niums.

:\Ir. GODFHEY MORGAN: \Yo have no guarantee yf that. There jg EO costing sy,tcm .. , This Bjll will only brin;s grist to the cnllt of the msurance compames. They wdl make a lot of money out of it, and t!Je unfortunate small man will suffer. \Vhat does £5 or £6 matter to some people? But rt rnat.rer' nrnch people who are strug~hng-. Thcv haYe to do \vithout the use o.f their cars. In fact, many people will go back to thc·ir old spring-carts.

Mr. l'o···ER: Back to the horse!

:vir. GODFREY J1IORGAN: That is oo. Mr. Pow£R: That ought to suit you.

1\Ir. GODFREY l\lORGAX: I really should sLrpport the Bill wholehoartedh;, became in my opinion it will send a lot ;;f people "Lack to the horse." (Laughter.)

J\I~·· WALKER (Cooroora) [3.42 p.m.]: ~ reab··~e that the J\Tinister exnects a certain amount of <;ood from this Bill. \Ve have seen in tho l)1~ess from timo to tin1o accident cases "·here the nerson involYed had not enough a>scts to pcty cornpensatoon. On the other hand. special consideration is needed in the, cour:try (Ji::;tricts. It is no use ::aying that tnc gr<':tter the business done the lower will be the rate. The lnsuranc'3 Commis­sioner ln;ow '. well that there is no costing S.l'<'lcm, and m the debate on tho ·workers' Compcnsat'on Acts Amendment Act the other day it \Ya::; shown that workers' compensa­tion wa"i n9t kept on a costing svstem at '11. is hr:rd t.o s1y \vllat. an1ount Of rnoncY will recei vcd, At present there arc 110.00,0 motor vehicles )n Queensland, Inclu·cung rnot~r CJ clcs. \\, e can expect an annual colkct10n of £500,000 from those nconle. Yet, in the countrv the risk is ;ufi;ritcsimal ccmparecl with "that in- the towns. V\'c lnve hear·d a good dectl about good driYCI'S in the countrv and g·ood drivcr5 in . the !OIYiF. but in rny u opinio--n the good drtYcr 111 one place is a g·ood driYer in another. \Vo have to consider the compara· ti,·e risks in th<' different areas. \Vhv should 11 n1an in .a .sn1all country town be pu~t on the ~an1e bash. as a n1an in the metropolitan ~rPn of Drt~bane? If we were prosperous m the country \Ye should uot mind, but the awrago hrmer is not. Most of the utility

fJ!r. Morgan,

trucks in the country districts, I venture to ;:;ay. arc not used on an average once a week. and this insurance will increase the co~t by a couple of shillings for every time such a car is taken out. The registration fee is a particularly heavy one, between £5 and £6 for the ordinary utility truck-and that is the class of vehicle most commonly found in countrc· districts-and if you are golng to double that amount it n1eans a charge of .approximately 5s. a week on every man \cith a car, though he may use it only once in that time. Those cars are not used only for commercial purposes, although they are utility truck<. They can be used for pleasure or busirwss purposes. The or·dinary rnan in th0. country is working for at least five days in the ,;_,eclc and hiB cream and other proclncts arc picked up by the district Yan. Jle probnb1y uses his own yehide one,, a month to takP his family to church, or into tmYn to a circus or to the seaside, bnt. according to this Dill, he will be taxed "t the rate of about £1 a month to cover the co~t of the registration and insurance of his car. That is unfair when we have regard to the use that he makes of his vehicle.

\Ye know fuH \Yt:ll that the proc;erh of i he pruniu1n;;; paid to thl' State Covern1nont IlHur:tnco Offico \Vi ll be nsod for general purpo.ocs. \Yo could support the Bill if we had an assurance from the J\Iinister that ihcro \YJnld he differential prcn1iun1 i'-fLtcs .as hctwoeiJ the to·wn and the country, but we should vote avaimt the Bill in its present

"forn1, b _ean~c I believe that its advantages are cnt.il'elv overshado\'ICd hY tbo cla1nage that it \\·iil do to the cour{try gPncralfy. "0.la11.\~ of these rnotor vehicles an~ purchn.scd on the timC'-p.a.:?mt~nt s:. "ten1, and after the Bill is r>assecl many of the P'"'chnsers will lot tho balanre of tho pa.ynwnis slldr, bE:'causc they \vill no longer be able t:> afford to own car:-;. On n1v o\Yn two farn1s to-Clav two vehicle~ arc bci"ng lLJC'd hy share fal·1ners for nothing Plce thnn to carry food to starv­ing f.'tock. Thc·t~ 1110-n catn!ot afford to bu~v petrol. ILn. memhch do not realise tho conditions i .~, tbc cm1ntry to-da ·.". They should bear jn rnind tlw little u~P that" ]~ rnade of n1otor ca.r~ for pleasure in the country pomparcd with the use that is made of them in the city·. The Bill is unfair, ancl I an1 .rpiug to YOtP against it unless the ~'Iinister is pr 'pared to giYc an assur­a,ncc that he wi1l adopt a co~ting S?~tem for the purpose of arri,·ing at differential rates for the country and the town.

:\lr. XI:YD.TO (()x/n;) [3.48 p.m.l: I was plc.acccl I c) hear tlro Minister t;ive the f1'3Ur­

anrc that the Bi11 1.ronhl not create a nlono­poly irl thi' fMm of in,uranr 0

, that tlwrc would be he~ competition for the risks that 'vere offered. l'or,,onallv, I rather wel­cotne the Bi1l, b::-r:n,uc.;o jf ~all ov,~ner;:; of motor Yohicll: arc· compcllocl to t.ake out a compnhensiYe p:licy there \vi!! )J .. a tend­c ncy for the prenlinrn rate to be rf:'duced. I haYC often vvonderc-l1 ~.~·hv anv rnan \vho owned .a 1notor ear or tnwk did not insnru it. I 11o not t.hink that lH' c:-111 afford to rnn it unl(~SS he has an ir~~urance coYer. li@i m a v 1!0 out on to the road "ith an old truCk and nH~ct with an accident, and if he ls not insured he Etav lo.~c hi::; farm in llaYing to pay for claninios. Our lll·a.in objcr­ti,~e ::-honld b0 to s0c that t.lL· pre1niutn rate is r·e.:.luced. I have n1ado it a practice nevci' to insure my car for more than £100. which c:tl,o giye:::.. lllP n third-party cover

Hospitals B?ll. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitais Bill. 1787

for £1,000. It is nry unlikel-c that an O\YllCr of a. motor vehicle \vho is inYolved in an accjdent will suffer dan1age to his car amounting to £100, and the cost of that co.vcr is in the vicinity of about £4 10s. per annun1.

l\Ir. Gom'REY MORGAX: \Vhat would hap­pen if you were served with a claim for £500 damages?

:Mr. Nlt.1MO: I shotdd be well protected by a third-party co.vcr up to £1,000. A per­son ·who buy::: n, truck or car on tcnns i-; compelled by the nmdor to insure it bcfor it is taken out. l\fauy por~ons may think that this Bill is going to do them some harm but. permnally, I belie.ve that it will do them a .very good turn. ber-anse if cnry­hody ic compelled to take out an insurance ccver there will be a tendency for the premium rate to be reduced, and it will also make for greahT safdy in travelling. It 1vill n1oan that oiYners of trucks or car~ who travel to town will see that their brakes a:·c efficic1:t ancl that as far as possible the car is nwcha.nicallv ;ound and that there arc no ddccts tha't ,,-ill kad to a serious accident. Then cveryborly will bo protected. A number of Lire cars in this city arc not imurcd, and this fact causes a gcod deal of wony in time of aeciclcnt.

Question--" That the resolution (J1 r. Cooper's motion) be agreed to ''-put »nd passrd.

ThQ House resumed.

The C:HAJR:\IAN reported thftt the Committee had cmne to a resolution.

Re~.olution agreed to.

FmsT Rnm~G.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRC\'TIO::-J (Hon. F. A. Cooper Bremcr) prcst'nted the Bill. and mm·ed- '

" That the Bill be now read a first ii·mc."

Q11cst ion put and passcrl.

Scc,md n :tding of the Bill made an Order of the Da;. for t<•-morrow.

HOSPITALS BTLL.

Sr~CO~D RE.\DING.

The SEC'HRT ARY FOR HEAL'rH ~'I.ND HO:UR AFFAIRS (Hon. K J\.1. I-Ianlon, lthae••l [3.53 p.m.'l: I moye-

" That the Bill be now read a second time."

T do not intend to take np the time of the I-I ous0 with a long ~.econd reading speech. I explaim•d the prO\·isions of the Bill verv 1ninutcl,v on the iutroductory stage. I gave a YPry fl'll outline of its proYisions and the rco_·,ons for the altcratiun.:~ we arc rnaking.

As hon. members haYo doubtles' seen. the Bill is a completely new one. It repc·als pre-vious l(~gisbtion and socks to bring all lcgit-Jatiun in relation to hospitals und0r one statute. It will rnakc for greater conYcmi­cnce for the laymen throughout the State who arc chargee! with the administration of our hospitals, and wilL genPrally SJ)f'DJzing, make for a better understanding of the law. It puts the work of a hospital board c•n the same plane as that of a local authority. 1\I('rrlbers of a ho~pital board will now be in the same po:-ition as mernbers of a local authority as they will haYe their powers and

their <lutics to the communitv clearly and distinctly defined. Their duty tc• the sick ancl injured is set out in Yery wide terms. 'l'lw trcatnwnt of the sick is described ir! the vcr,\ \Yiclest terms possible. \V" e regard the work of a ho.<pit:tls boarrl to-day as some­thing more than placing a broken limb in splints or adruinistering n1cdicinc to sornc­one v, ho is sick. A hospitals board. in addi­tiou to being charged with the earc <'f the sick and inj!ucd and having to issue levies as a taxinu authority, is also rharged with the dut,· of kecqnng the cost of hospital treat­ninnt. don·n to a:-:. low a figure as possible. It is its duty not on1y to prevent extrava­gance in adrnini3tration, but also to n1iti­gat0 tl1c irJcidt'llr'C of rJis0asP. Consequently, it is ch;trgcd EOt only with the care of the ~iek and injur0d, Lut with providing- dcntnl and ophthalmic treatment as well, together with any other form of treatment that in its o]1inio11 \vill help to rnini1nise the nun1ber of cllscs that ha,-c to come to a hospital for treahnent.

The hoard' alw have pm>cr to c-xtcnd their operatior:.:-;. In thC' elty of Bri:"banc· \YP propo:;e, at an earl:- date, to tackle tl1c tubcrculo~is prohlen1 in a YC'ry ~t rong 111a Dncr. The hospital::' Loard. if it is goi?fY to k('ep do\nt the incidence cf tubcrculo::n,~. 1nust do ..-orncthinn· n10rC' than n1crelY ])Ut a sick patient. into a bed and g!v~ t!w _n1edical and nee-, a.rv rv[ces to lnrn. it 1.:::: ncres-

fm· tlw ·Loan] to be able to foliow the• to his home. If such a patic·nt coniCs

11J. board ,_,hou1c1 endeavour to sec that other n1crnLer" of the farnily arC', -.a£0-r..;·u::u·cled frotn the d1s('Usc. A~ time goes on -· the Yal·iou disca.~es tlw-t. are c.£ nature can bP ca:crie-d on in v ay, \~,~ith such coinpJa 'nt a..:: tubL:r-f'tdoc,i:-, unl: -s ~ornebody gets ln touch IYith the familv in •-"hich tlw pctient !in··. there 1:-; a~--; tl12 dangt>r that while you arc

or attc:mpting to cure, the father_ or mol her of a di" -~t,~V the tmtic .. Jt i.-" ir!fCctJng otlH:•r nnd llH)ntbcr~ of the f 1nilv. In V1ctol_·ia. in ~tn.t dirC'ction. althoug-h pur('lv of ;-. vo1nntnry 11aturP hilf' gone very stcadilv alu>nd. a.ncl an attempt is being made to dcai \Yith it in NPw South-.Walc-s. In some Stat··s in Anl('rica verv l;n)at '-tr'dcs h:v c• be•( -~ made iu that dirc~et1on. lt 1"' rf'tnark­nblc to :i}Ot:> thP f':·u·cl1 -.::~110~,:;: thnt i;;; di:--­pluYrd about tl1r JJC(·E'ssar:-; hygiene .and precautions in thr> ]Jo-·e to prcYcllt a tuher­c1dc;s1~ n 1hcnt f:·on1 jnfccting an~rLody el:c-:.0. \rp ha\:'---.. l f'r·u spc•1:ding la-rgP ,"-UD1c: in an cr.dP 1your to IJiinimlse that C01TII11aiut. }1ost of t }JI':..:f' di~·-- a·~ '3 rn n be d irni 1: a t~'c1 to a ;-('r· C"'\t.eut }f pro H'r pu•c1ntions .are hll..;:.cn. is a rf'nl"rkahlc thing that only -in Ycr~.- rar: i11,:t::tnce haYc nursPs or art0nd -~1h; at a tnLen ulosis in;;;t]tntion con-tra-·tccl thn.t clisca'r-. for tlnt }:-; that th~· law of tht' provid· .,. that prN :LEtinns sh:dl bo t krn. So l yen­tnrc to ~a-,..' th- inc1ch~ncc of thr'..t d1::;:ease could be jfnrnr•;.selp rcdueed ;u ~'n e11--la11ct if prccauhonA wcrr takc-rl Itl t]1,

The board< lo eo-op·•rate llt" local

10-1 r,nd the GovctnnJcnt in tlutt VIe a ne qu;tc conftclont th<·t in tbc•

Clf controllin&; tubPlTu1o::-.i ,shai; 1Hl.YC i.hc co-op('l'ai·i-On of t1w pro-fe,.::.ion. In prescribing w·hat tb(• trcabnPnt of the sick is we lay clown thi11gs that are necessary for the ctnc of sickne' ~ and diE ease, for ib ('radication. and for its prevention.

Hon. E. Jv[. Hanlon.]

1788 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

The boards are being gi' en power to take "'eh actwn as they behevP to be neccsRarv to C'xtcucl their oncrations in anv way the}' think ll0CLS5ary. ,_ ~ ~

Another principle that I mentioned dur­ing tlw introductory stage of the Bill is that of giving the power to hospital authori­ttes to terminate the services of Yoluntarv medical offiecrs if theY so desire. It wa·s rather a .~urpri~e to ilY'-'Ind I think it \va...: a surprise to all hon. members of this Com­mittee-that there \Yas a doubt about the• ]pg:ol pow:•r of a ho-pitah board to dispens'' \vJth tht: scrY1.ces of honorarv mcdiral officers of an ir.,~htution. if Hwv ~~ desired. Th,-: Tiilt dc{\nitc,ly cl~cars up·~ that posihon, and l~~aYcs the control of the hospital in the bands of the n•prcscntatiYc' of ihf' people.

TllC cxLC'lJ:;;.ion of the pcnrer of the boards ::houlcl have good effect. In cvcrv departur: ihr GoYf'rnrnCnt rnake a p:rcgt cl;':al depend::; upon the pPr.::onnc·l of the boards to whlch an~ giYcn dcfm1b2 {_h:;tle"' to perform. \Vith the best intention,. in the world, Pm·Fa.ment might POoSS a law that promised great things lo the pco11lc, but in the administration of it \VO arc dt~1"H'lldl~nt upon the hurna.n fartor: ancl thr.:: intcllicroncc and uuder,+ stqndinv of duties ~~Y ll1l~rnhers of the hoards concerued will havr; a great effect Olf

\Yhcihcr. or not this Bill is go1ng to g}y,,_ the scrv1cc to the people we hop, it "·ill.

I will not weary the Honse with anything further. I went throng h the B1ll verv care­fully yesterdav,_ dealing with every prin­ctph~ cor1tanuxt rn it, and pointing ont every po;ver, and explaining the reasons for each pnncip]., or power. The rassage of thi, Blll wlll 1mprovo the capacity of the ho,. p1tals boards to give service to the cow­munity and enable them to see that the cost of the service is kept to the minimum.

~Ir. MOORE (A.ubiqny) [4.1 p.m.]: "\s the ~Imster has said. this is a viory comprchen. sive Bdl. After gomg through it as care­fully as J could in the short time at mv d1sposal I find that his suggestion that th.o control '!f ho ,pitals Js left to the people m the ·d1stncts concerned is verv far from the true position. As a matter ;f fact the control of hCJspitals is always centred ;·,; tbe Goverrn~1ent. rl'ho Governn1rnt have the controlhng interest on all boards. 'l'huv have power to disallow any resolution passe-~] bv the board for the expenditure of monev. ~nd, conversely-I do not know whether it. lS so-they have power to compel the board to enter upon the expenditure of money that. the board does not behove to be in the mlf•rcst' of the ho:,pitak It anprars to me that local authorities are being placed in the P;'~ItJon of merely being collectin<~: authont1cs for other imtrumentalities.

The other day we passed a verv compre­hensive Local Governm<mt Bill, '~hicb W'l.s

supposed to place. in the hands of the people l!l the' Yal'lous cbstncLs the po\ver of local rontro1, but there was a tn'n1{?ndous am .. ount of gon. rnnrentaJ control in that rnca--ure. We have va~·ious Bills coming before tho House tn ~vhJCh the power of local authori­ties IS ontuely subservient to other boards. In . the Health. Act a local authority is ent1roly subserv1ent to the Director-Genera] of Health and Medical Services and in tl,is Bill local authorites are entire]~ subservient to hospitals boards in manv inst~nccs. There is . a tremendously far-reaching olause in tins B1ll. I do not know how far it can

[Hon. E. M. Hanlon.

go, but the local authority is very subser­vient to the hospitals board. I refer to the provision that the Minister has described as being very wide. It is expressed in the very widest terms. In order to show just how far a hospital, board is entitled to go, I will read the powers contained in one ]Jrovision of this l3ill-

. . . And the doing and execut-ing by the board of all acts, matters, and things determined by it to be nec-es­sary for or incidental or ancillary to the efficient and proper treatment of the sick, and the prevention and/ or mitiga­tion of sickness. and the L11Tying-our and co.ordination of such treatment and sneh pro,~cntion ;;tnd/ or n1itigation."

After all, the duty of a hospital board con­~erns the hospital a.nd the pati<mts of t.hat hospital. 1'he question of prevention or miti­gation of disease can be interpreted as being almost as wide as Queensland.

"CndPr the by-laws that a hospitals board is empowered to make, as defined on the next page of the Bill, it could use certain powers now reposed in the Industi·ia.l Court. It could determine \vhethcr cane should l1o burnt for the prevention of \<Veil's disease.

The SECRETARY FOR ITEALTH A:.iD HmiE _._\FFATH:): You arc g1Ying it a Yt:ry wide interpretation.

Mr. ~IOORE : I do not know how far the power extends. 'fo me it appears that the definition is so wide that a. hospitals board is given full and complete control over the prCYf!lltion of disease and sickness. rrhis j<.:; vcrv much outside the sphere of a hospital. In "fact, it is a long way beyond it. The boards arc given tremendous powers that would enable them to undertake all sorts of work in connection with that subject.

The SECRETARY FOR :HEALTH AXD Hol\IE AFFAIRS: How would you get co-ordination if they had not power to link up with local authority wm·k?

Mr. MOORE: The Bill does not say any­thing about linkin,g Ul) wit.h local auth(Jrity work. ·when it co,nes to a question of the prcvcr,tion or mitigation of disease, hospital boards are paramount, and it appears to me that this is a tremendously wide power. Almost anything can be read into it. L'\ board could 'even order tho burning of cane to prevent \V oil', disease. In fact, ali the nowcrs conferred bv the Health Ad ran ·be operatf'd by hospitals boards. Then the boards have power to control the transport cf sick people, the care of them, and tho nritigation of sickncss~it a11 comes under the control of the hospitals board.

On0 other factor is that the Govo·nment ha YC providr,d in C'VCry ea so that they arc to have the controlling influence on the board. Cor..;cqnontly I do not understand 'vhv it is necrs·,.arv for the Go,'ernment to ha,:e a clansfl in the Bill poviding that the GovcrHor in Conncil can disallow any rcc::o~ lution or the expenditure of a1w money if he deems it to be unnccessarv. That is not local government, and if the Government a.r·c going to step in the bDard is not given the pcnyer tbnt is so necessary. They have a rnajority o£ their own representatives on tho board, and yet they take further power to dominate the board in every possible way. It is centralised control, whereas it is supposed to be local control by the people in

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovE:.vrBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1789

the respective districts, which arc presumed to have a gre.a.t interest in getting the best vflue for tho money that is to be expended. 'lhc Government have power to do almost anything.

To my mind the constitution of the board is wron;r. The people who arc contributing 40 per cent. of the money directly. and a proportion of the 60 per cent. provided by the Government are at the mercy of tho GoYr~rnn1cnt, wbo decide \vhat nun1bcr of reprc<-entatives shall he given to a specified local authorit,·, or .,-hcther the local autho­rity that is contributing shall have any reprc~entati,~cs at all, and even when that i~ de('ided these repre-entatiYes are cntirclv in the minority. It seems to ml' that the local authoriti0, are being used merely for the collection of funds to be spent by some­body else. They should have a nry deci­~IYO YOtC(' in how the n1oncr collected should Qo spent, because he a lti; control is one of the chief duties of a local authoritv. Trrcspccti,-e of the fact that local authoriti~s han' lwalth officers, who haYe passed the ncc:c:ssary cxa1nination~. under the provisions that we are now getting in various' Bills they arc apparently placed in a secondarv po;.;:ition as regards taking ncccssarv nctior;. ln ouc Bill tlie Director-Genera] of Health au<l Medical Services has complete power of control, and in another the hospitals boorcl has power to override the local autho­rit.v iu an, \Vay it likes, do anv \Vork it likes, an cl thB co.sts have to be met by the local authority in the shape of a precept.

The''"- is prm·ision for the appointment of a rornnLutors' representative, and there is prm·ision also for the Government to incn a_-e the nnmber of rncrnbcrs on th hospitals board Rt any time. I suppose that only meaus np to the limit of nine. ,and not an ('Xtra Go,·ernrncllt n10111bcr if anolhc r contributor..,'. n~prC'·Ontativc is appointed. I am not qmto clear on that point, but upparr'ntly th'--y can incrca. ·O the nun1ber of mc•mb0l's on the board from five to seven er froL1 seYen to nine.

The SECHET.\RY FOH IIr \r nr ~\1•TAllf . ...;: \Y1latCYt)r nun!bei' i~ allowed.

,\ ~;]) HO'l!JC --n1t·:~.blc is

'\lr. MOOHE: Yes, but it can he incre•asecl ·at any time. If thB board starts with five it cun be incrc:lc0cl, qut does it mean that the GoYermncnt can increase th(_" nurnber .on the board to ten ?

Tiw S·cncnnv FOR HL\LTH .\XD HOME AI-T.\THS : l\ o.

:'dr .. -"IOOIU~: I was not quite clear on the pomt on the "·ording of tlw.t dausc.

Tlwn we come to the question of financing th0 ho'pital, >Yhich is oce of the most impor­tc.nt of all. and en which tho \Yholc basis of the ho'pital manacement depends. Here we han tb same proportion as at present: 60 per cent. from the Go,-crnment (the general t."xpnycr) and 40 ]101' cont. contributed directly frotn tbe local authority by a.

tax on land. The Minister has continued the principle that was put in l)y an ex-Home Secretary, namely, that monBy coming from a precept issued by a hos­pitals hoard must come from the general fund of the shire, or if a division only is inclndod in a hospitals district, it must come from the general fund of that di,:ision. The only case in which a special rate eau be struck for the hospital precept is where only part of a division is in the hospitals district. Th0n, of course, it would be totallv unfair for it to be met from the general fund. I cannot understand, except from one point of view, '.l·hy this rule should be imposed upon shire councils. For almost en~-r.v service it is necossarv to strike a ~pccial rate-a special loan fate, a special electric lighting rate, or a stock route rate, for Pxamplc. The Government seem to think that the public will not favour the collection of thc,e hospital precepts, and will not allow the councils to collect them by means of a special rate. ·

The SEcHET\UY FOR HK\LTH A;;D Ho~IE AFFA1RS: It is not a good thing to hayc too 1nany ~perial rates.

:\lr. MOOR I~: I think it is a v0ry good thing- that the people should know wr,..t theY are paying for. One of the principles that the GoYcrnment set out in the recent Local Govermncnt Bill is that the people should know to what they arc contributing.

Tlw SECRETAHY Fon HEALTH ANll limiE .--\FFUHS: That is the ansvvcr to your objec­tion.

}!Ir. :MOORE: It i• not the answer. bcc .. wse this money comes from the general fund, a ncl the people of the shire do not know what they arc paying. If the Govern­ment 1Ycre satisfied that thev were doing the fair thing they v:ould allmY. the local autho­rit~.~ to lcy·; a S1)eC'ial rate. I c~ut nnder­~ta"nd their."' anti~tg to conu~al tho amount.

One thing T shonld like to know-I suppose the Minister will take the opportunity to iudulvc in a little hilarity about it-is why, when the suggestion of the Eoyal Commis­·'ion oll Hospitals was considered by the Homo Secretary at that time, he did not recommend that the second alternative should l>e adopted, namely, that tho rates should not bP lcyiod solely upon the unimproved .-alno of the land, and the number of r":t­ablc properti<?s and the rates collected, m order to bring about a more equitable incidcnco of hospital charges?

I should like to show how inequitable the position is in manv cases. I rang the llenartment of Heafth and Home Affairs to try. to get the precepts for various shires, but apparently it would have taken a lot of ,,-ork to get that information. It could givf) n1e tho proper precepts for the vari?llS local •authorities, bnt not the proportion that each shire has to pay. The follo•ving comparison, however~ illustrates n1y conten­tion:-

Number of General Population. Occupied. Rate Precept.

'ToO\Yoomba Citv .J ondaryan Shire

26,982 5,246

D\vcllingP,

f>,l88 1,068

Collections.

£ £ 20,997 1,-121

8,123 1,102

Mr. Jlioore.]

1790 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] H ospitols Bill.

The amount of precept in the case of the shire is only £300< less than for the town of Toowoomba, which has a population· five tin1ts as great. and has six tirnes the nun1ber of occupied dwellings. Surely it does not seem fair that merely because people hap­pen to be getting a living from the land they should be the largest contributors! 'l'hc people in the city areas have regular specified salaricc;, irrespective of seasonal conditions. They arc paying an infinitesimal n.n1ount in cornparison with tho man who happens to OYYn a few hundred acres of land and has to eontencl ag-aimt drought condi­tions and ey-crything else, and still contribute on exactly the same basis. It is not just

that it should be so. 1\fany people on the land to-dav are suffering from ono of the worst droughts that we have ever had, and th0v lwve had to borrow monev from the Go~-emment to try to saye their "cattle.

Mr. K.\CiE: A householder in the tom1 of OakeY ·would not 1naY rnor0 than a 1lousc­h<>lclc'r in the city of Toowoomba.

l\Ir. MOO TU~: No. not a homcholcler, but a uwn with 10:') acrc~s of land out"lde l~IC' tO'.\"ll

has to pay ten timC':-~ a:-; 1nuch. \Yl1:--- should ho? }le has to earn his liYing frotn the land; he is not paiJ a salary. \Yhy ;.;hould he h_aye to pay ten tirncs rL 1JlHch a::.: a !1Dlbe­

holder v-rho ge-ts a regular ~:-~lar~:· ·: L·•t 1nc: ~otnpare now TocnYoon1ba and Ro ,tlic --

Population. Orcupkcl

Dwellings. General Rates.

Hospitals Precept.

Tomvoom1)a City Rosalie Rhirc

:20,98~ 7)293

\..188 1,500

£ 20.n01

S,GOD

f 1.4~1

GlS

·-----------~----'------:------·-----------

The Royal Cotnmission on Ho?1!1itals rccoru­mcnrkJ that three bases should be adOlltc•rl-­the nun11Jcr of ratable propertie_,, tho nnlrn­proYcrl Yalue of the land. and the r'ltC­collr'ctccl. If thnt bas:s lwd been ado;,ter!. Toowoc::mba '-ronld baYe pald a, ho~pib.tl ]Jre­cPpt of £2.037 i1dcad of £1.421. Jonrlnnan £815 instead of £1.102. and the Rnsrtlic l1ire £t '0 imtead of £618. Tlmt is a more 'quit­able bosis than the present. though still tmgically unjust. vVhat we object to is the ine'1uitab1c basis of raising this revenue. It is quite unfair that people should haYe to contril,ntn out of pro­portion to tlwir earnings because of tlw mere fact that thov .have to make .n, !lYing frotn tlw land. nluch of it poor u,nJ diflicult to make a lil-ing from. There must b(J ~on1c oth('r tnorc rqnitn bl{~ b -,sis fer :;cttillg: thn monPv \YlF'll thr l'.Iin-i::,tcr vv:ts spt tkin;2,· on the H<'dth Ads Amendment Bi11 ;-c'tl'l'­da~v. h0 sai,l the a,yeragc person wa:-. 110t a Rrour!rlrt'l and did not wl_.,h to C'Y!ldr- hj~ just obl-i::rations. \Vhat tht.• pconlc in country object to under the Hospicals _-\et t11f' )wovision that they feel treah tlwm unjust!,-. They fc<·l lhot there is inc[]unlity a~ betwlcn the to"\Yns nnd tho countrY. Tllt :\Iinj;;:ter r('rogni~e,s thal it is incqnita lJ1c~. because rather than allow them to know \Yh::J.t they "\YPre pa~vinQ", }JP ~nys -that a l1Tl'­

ecpt IYln~t b0 paid out of the genera] fur: J a nU thctt the amount each pa,-s shall be hidden. Thrrt ls clear proof of rn;.~ contention, orh r­wi~e there "\Yas no orco.~ion to sav that. thcr(' c::hou1d not be a ft})ecial tr~x al.H1 t1mt the ~Hccepts should be tak('n out of the ger;('ral fnnc1.

:\1r. HTLTON: '\Vhat happened Yriwu the lo<:r-tl authnritirs hac~ the r.ig-ht to strike a special hospital rate:

l\Ir. ~,fOOR.E: Thcv eoilcctcd it. At one time '"" had a · pccial hospital rate but it "\Yas objected to strongl;r LccaL1:-c' the people thought that it W11" an unjuE=t burden to plaec npon the_lL In ordc•r to front that po:"ition the }.1ini:-ter of the ).h·. :-<topforrl. arncnrlecl the H o~pitc!ls Act ]ll'O·

\·icle that thP precept should bo btkt>n fr<m1 the• genoral fund.

1Ir. IIILTOX: r:I'hcre were more reasons than that.

[21h·. 1Vloore.

)Ir. 2\IOORE: Xot that I know of. I do not k110W of anY other rcotson. If the loc-d authoritY could i1ot coll~ct NlOugh by ''"'Y of a spcciai rate, it had to take the balance out of the genE'ra1 fund.. but, as a rul0. 1t '".a" rtb1e to obtain enough by way of a sper1al ratC'. I \Vas rhairrnai1 of a shin' at that ti1n• and I know ''" were. able to rolled rlw bulk of it b!· way of a special rate.

Th0 JUinistcr was v0rv up::;cL a bout t h(' action of the Bungil shire. but it haLl cl-cn­iu~tificat.io!l for nlaking· 1t:-J protf':;-t .. TI.on1:1. has a ponulation of 3.369 people \,Jth occu)1i0d chn~lling·~. T1H' f f'Iwra1 rate rr rc..-cnuc of £2966. and tl1c ho~nital prC'­crl'1t 1~ £L192. Tb0 Bnng-ll :"l1ire h~1s a nopn11-ticm of 2.657 peop]f_>-Ulllch 1<'~..:; tha:1 T?_Oll! ~­\Yith 586 occupied dwelling~. Thf' !'( n'llltc:

from thP p:e1wral raJc amonntr·d to £5.783. hnt it . hospital procPpt 1< as £1,568. I po:-c jn orde-r t_o '' g-Pt [nck" on tlFtt for tr.Ying to protect 1t.s r~h'l)qy,- r~. and to f'=Ccnrc a iu~t fonn of ho~llltal ta;cltlon. thr: !:vlinistcr took cousiclcrrrblr' tro .. bJ,~ to i''O b~c), into tlw rN'Ol'c1s of tb0 rlPTJll'(--:Ttf'nt. to wh1ch he ·had aec0::-~ nncl to -.,vhich othor 1;copl(' lHld not A.Cr'C''"S. to find out Y:ha.t the chrr!l'UHUJ of th0 shire at that time contributPd to tll~

of the ho~pitnl unr~Pr the ·o1untar~­It J.f: an cxtr.1ordinary abn· ~·of ))dY\'-'~·

to do that sort of th1Y"g ar:t1 it doP::-; 1:ot grt us aJ1V"\vhcrc bnt it i~ Dll f'XCcllLnt ('X;unplo of wl;at th~ ;\linister will do. After alL what does it mattc'r if he did not pa..v any­thing? What lw did he did as an elected representative of the people in that ar:'a. after those people had giv,_'n an cxpresqou of , pin;on. The 1\!Iinistcr might sa:v they h~1c1 no right to g1Ye thc1t oxpress1?n of opinion, bnt the fact is that they d1d s'?. Bv that m< ans they onterocl an emphatic ]ll:·otr-st a.gA.in5t an unjust basis of taxation on which thcv were compelled to pay.

Tl"' SECRET\EY ron HEALTH .\xn Ho:~rE J,Ff'AIR-,: He was entitled to do that. but he \Y<JR nr>t cntit1E~d to tnkc the hl\v into hi" own 11a11ds.

~,I r. 1\-IC C) RE: The 1\-Iinish.•r had tnnplc po\YC·r unckr the _Act to put a rccoiYer into thC' local antl1orit.v to ('ltforcc tltL' payrncut of that rn·c'ccpt. The teceivor Yvoulcl h:nc had all the powc'l' of rr local a.nthorjt;>. li<e could ba.Ye leYicd rates to rncet ih(' precept,

Hospitals Bill. r26 NovE~IBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1791

\.tnd donn cv0rything :::t Joral authority ea n do. A local authoritv does not exist when " rccciYer is put in. ·:\ot satisfied with that th(~ 1\IiJJister, I supposr a litth~ on:rhcated with tPnlporary power. has placed a litt!u .tyrannical clause at the end of thi. Bill ;o .o;;av th,,t ar:v lllE'ntbt•r of a local authorih·

. - the pa:_vrnent of a hospitafs bn jointl)- aud sevcrrdly

for the arnount. ThPrc iJ no for ::;tK-h a provision. It i.s of 110

Good heavens. if a Ioeal authorlt•· dP:-::in_'d to r\"Capr nrcf'ting a prcccrlt all ~t rHajor;t:· of it.-5 nu:rnl-vr.s nred do 1·', not to voi.:_" ng in~t it but to 1valk out 1vh0n 1t earn. up for coE.:-;idPJ·~tion, at1rl thtH leave no (V·O 'H11:. A rcceivc~r \You1d thrn ha,·e to be ]'lut lfL Loc tl [U~thoritiP.:; do not want to be in that position. Ttwv arc f1;1i\t' _ to r;1cct t~1rir just obligUtions. 1 llP\r tll'<' lJl'~l'lf'CtJy :;:atlsfit'd tn bear vvhnt the•~ lH:liPYe i~ their fair sl1arc of the burden,

r\o Pot-anrl n0itlwr do I~thi;;k that they .sl1on!d ban:- flrl unfair

phcc'd on theru sin1plv berau:;:.p it i . ., an 0a:"~7 IHt '; to :t a dif£cn1tv. L~nfor-

ttP1ah'l::. rh'-lt is continuf'(l itt tl":.,:, ] ~ j] 1. . ,,,

Tl1P ~Iil!iq( r ruu~t rrco~·11i:<' th~1t there al'c• n nulnb~·r of J1COIJ]C ·who arc r::ot .r~·citing 2. fron1 thP lalld) Lerrn,;;, on thf oi lL r lnnd tlwrc tl re ft l:n~u: nun1 hT of otlH'r pronlP in ref ,?;nt of ~rliaJl a'1d larO'•' sahlri_ ·r·t~c1 rcq-nlarly - :vc ~f \\-hf'tht'l" 11)(• se:-1-~on i.s good or Th. ~Iilli .... tc'r ve~tf>rdaY 1vhr'n he was going' into 1/Jc Of the cOllection of man',- foi· lJO-..nJLI~ th·n it ll1)llld he corJtribnicd on

i,~ of ability to p1y. Tl1at is the principle of taxatio11. Xo one

ha_~ CYf'r u·ied to Elnb:::ta.nti,•te a clalrn th::tt hcc .1u~. t E 1 an a living off tl1P lnnrl1 it is c'l·idcncP of n bilitv to X o onP cnn "'it\~ th1t in n bad :1 nt:-1n <leiualh: m?.kt s <l 1o ·'< jn on tlH) lo.:1cL l1c ::.JtnnJd han" lo same :-t.rnr•l!J r <:l"' wlt0n he rnakc·-, profit. It r:z t n1)ilit~~ tn pny. but the -t-;;in ·c-:;:. of collPd'on tl1at i'3 the al1Ynntag-0 of col10,.,tinr:r in such a way. A man's ~erelv nomin~l ow!1cr .. -hjp of u .. piece of lnnd poS-:'-'ssing an lllJllllJli'OH .:1 YaluP doe' not prow' ho has an 1nrmne to H1 'et oblio:ations placed on it.

T~11fortnn;ti0h·, 11nder th~" Bilt a Jo0al ~uthr;ri! i~ of .-.:0condnry jrnportanco. c-xi-.t-TJl~- :->.' a colledi11g- antllorirv for oiJJc1· nc-nr-lr' who h Ye· to cln th0 job. It i.-:. a ,-r-r unfortunnf:--. ,~;:on' nn~·-P]< mv:- no.sit!on fo.r a local to be placed· ir'. T 1Htt

ar~o(-1 Rpreading. V\T o find ,- '1'~~ ·.\~ one for pt:'oplc• for can clcl2gat"; to ~nnJ;• ono clRC'. Jt ]"

an easy task for a ho,spitals board to i"u" _nndn•·t~·c, •· _\Yo rnust haY'-' it _ir~ a

llrlH', allfl th Tl hDYC: [I prOYl~IQ:l pln.cc~i i11 Rill to f'YHtble ih12 GoYcrnmPr:l to l'f'CO\·r·r ~~mount of ntnnr.v ]n·0;'3perti,-(l of the' cn-t tn tll'.~ pt'oplc in tha.t a,r0a. To _my 1nind the \vholc principle ralh for rcyj-,ion.

The clau'e' in tho Bill are very definite. Three or four clauses specify a method of taking- the monov in such a wav that the issue ~will be clo'uclecl a~ much as possiblc so that it shall come out of the general rate and pcopJp, will not know what each con· tributccl, but only the total cost. When you "'c the powers the Governor in Council has over the boards in the expenditure of

money, and when vou remember that the Government have the power to control the CX]Wnditurc of money by hospitals boards, whether they deeire it or not, it seems to me that this practice of covering up the precept and the mothocl of securing it are entirelv unwarranted.

I n~tice that in this Bill a principle is incorporated that was amended in the Local Gowrnnwnt Bill, that is, in regard to the letting of contracts. A month's notice has to be given of the calling of tenders and the Bill ~pccifically sate out that the ho,pitals boards must meet once a month. It seems to me that if it is to be brought into con­formitY IYith the other Fill the ti1ne for acl,·ert'ising· the contract should be reduced.

These arc sorrw Yery arr1biguous dauses in the Bill. One says that if any officer of a ho,pitals board retains or holds back any mane;, he becomes liable to a very extreme penalty. but no time is set clown for retain· ing M holding it. The Bill doeo not say for twenty-four hours or a week, but the penalties arc Yory stringent.

ThP J\.Iinist81' says thero io no intention of intcrf0ring with the ambulance. I do not know what that means, but the Bill cer­tainly providos that the hospitals hoard has complete control of the treatment of all MicknA~s. because it includes in the scoDc of thl' duties of the boards~ -

. . . and such othor treatment, ~et::;, rnattcrs, and things as may be designed or intended to prevent or mitigate sickness, and ambulance trans­port, and other transport services."

The clause also says tho board shall haYe full power and authority in relation to~

" . . . . the undertaking, provision, acquiring, construction, n1aintenance, management, regulation. carrying-on, anclfor regulation of the use of~

(iii.) Ambulance transport and/or other transport services."

It eccrns to me to be left entirely to the hospitals board to say whether it desires to take over the ambulance service or not. It is not a que'3tion Of anybody else's having a ~av in it or not. Tla• ho:-:.pital:-; bo·~ l'd 1~ gi,-on trom0ndous powers; and in the powors to make bv.laws and regulations can do almost an}thing. \Vc recognise that a by­hw, before it actuallv becomes law, has to rccCin~ the con..;ef!.t u or arJprontl of the Gon:rnor in Council. but the subjects of b.--.laws arc set out, and they certainly pro­Yicle fol' a very wide sphere of action by ho' :litals hGarck

1\lr. DOXXELLY interjoctc.cJ. 1\Ir. :\IOORE: I wa· only suggesting that

tlw an1bulances that are carrying on success­fullY shoulrl be left as thev a re until such ti1nP as the peoirle ln thf' d}~trict~ couecrrwd dc'irc that there should be a change. If they fail to proyido enough rnoney to carry on the mnhulancc, with the subsidy, then a change could bo made.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS : That ie what is being done.

Mr. 1\fOORE: Then there is some reason for that, but in this Bill there is no sug· gestion that the ambulance will only be affected if it is Lmable to carry on. It gi,·es the board pmYer to take over the ambulance 1f it desires to do so at any time, irrespcctiYe of whether the ambulance is

1vlr . .i1Iom·e.J

1792 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

carrving en successfully and is capable of continuing to do so. The board has po>Ycr to regulate and manage the ambulance, and take it over. At least, that is how I inter­pret the clauses I have read, and I have not discoYered anv other clause that lessens that power in an0' way. The powers of a board are very extensive, and ~.-re not oonfined to the R.ctual working of the ho·-pital, but of a very much wider scope. Indeed. it appears to me as if the members of hospitals boards are to ha vo an almost full-time job.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A"D I-Imm AFFAIRS : It will cost l<''s to run an ambu­lance when it is controllPd by a hospital.

Mr. ~VI:OORE: \Ye do not know >Yhether it will cost less. However, the moncy has to be found by the same ppopl€'. It is mero.ly a question of transferring the con­trol.

A special section of tho Bill is devoted to voluntary hospitals. They are to bc allowed to operate, prMided, apparently, that they ~an be suc~cssfullv financed. However. the Govcrnn'lent haY('~ the power to "di~tl'ict" the se voluntary hospitals at any time, and without any consultation with the people in the respective areas as to their desires.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Ho:m~ AFFAIRS: We have ahvay had that.

Mr. "\-IOORE : There is no prm·ision giving the people in the area a Yoi<'c jll the HllLttcr. It ;:t_p]1f'ar:; to rnc~ to be a farcP to sug­ge·t that the principle of the Act is to confer local control on the people in the area -as it should be. be< .1use they provide the necessarv funds-whnn the Government can at any· time interfere and " district " a voluntary hospital. They can sa0• to the committee. "VVe are going to put. youE hospital within a 'disiricted' area.'' There may be three or four more hospitals in thnt area. and the people within the vicinitv of the Yoluntary hospitrtl arc compelled to 'con­tribute a precept, in the expenditure of which the local authority will not haYe the controlling voice at all. The GoYernment representatives hav<' that controlling voice. Consc<pwntly, it -appears to me-it it 1s

to be the principle that the local authority finds the money and the Government have control-that, it would be infinitelv prefer­able from the .point of view of -a. citizen of Queensland for the hospitals service to bo nationalised. the Government to t>1ke the whole responsibility of providing the neces­sary funds to enable them to operate.

Mr. I-IrLTO~: \Vould you prefer that?

Mr. MOOR.E: I should prefer it to the present s,stem. I prefer it to a system under which a section of the community are unjustly taxed. The Government wonld not impose a tax on the basis that is set out in this Bill. I do not like nationalisation. because I think it would be extravagant and expen~ive, but it is no use pretending that a fictiOnal local control by the people in a given area will keep ciown expenditure and rr1inimise extravagance \~,hen thoso P;"ople have not the real control. Nationalisa­tiOn would be infinitely fairer than the present system. It is wrong for the Gon•rnment to have control. but for other'' to have to collect the money and take the financial responsibility.

The clauses of this Bill that govern volun­tary hospitals expressly set fol'lh that the:;· have no power to work on overdrafts, and that an overdraft must be on the personal

[J1fr. Moote.

guarantee of the members of the committee. This is rather a big thing to ask of nwm­br•rs of voluntary hospitals committees-to give a joint and several personal guarantee's for the monev borrowed to enable it to carry on. It 'may be that they arc aware that a considerable amount of money >vill be received at a later date, but, after all, these men are performing a nationa.l service, and doing it voluntarily, whereas there is provision for the payment of m cm bc·rs of hospitals boards. The Government should not aim a.t n1aking tho position of yoluntary con1mittee;:; rnorc difi-icult than is neces:;arv. There arc not many pcr,;_.ons in the coill­munitv who. without anv benefit to them­selves, a re willing to pe1:forrn a vublic ser­vice in the interests of the con1n1unity, but under this Bill such people arc required to give a joint and several guarantee for temporary accommodation to enable a. voluntary hospital to operate. 'The Bill prm·ides definitely that they shall not be allowed to have an overdraft at tho bank. The only way they could can:: on would be under a joint and several guarantee.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A::<IJ Ho:.IIc AFFAIRS: That is the only "\Yay they can g(;t the 111011CY llOW.

Mr. 1VIOORE: In the case of yoluntary hospitals the mombm·s of thA committees are c 'tiz-cns of hig-h re)mte. an cl they would Le accommodatrcl by the banks without any trouble. and get over their diffioultil'S tem­porarily.

In his second-reading speech tiH' i\linister said thnt a hospital should have the right to clo avvay with hononn~v rnedical pract.i­iioners if it ~o dc~~ircd. I SUflpOsc it has. He said there was a doubt as to \Vhethcr it had po\vPr to rmnove an honora.r:- meclic:ll officer. but that wonld clepond on the arrangement bet,·een the he pital and the honorary medical officer. If there waQ an ngrecrnent for a ('f'rtain time, under >Yhioh tlw hospital was pro­hibited from putting- him off, unless for some infamous or unprofessional conduct, the position would be quite clear. I think it would have power to got rid of him under those conditions. but this clause speci­fic.allv sds cut tluct the hoaorarv medical oflkc·;. who h•1s a specii11'<l o nrl dcfiriite period of ~crvicc under a rontrart of "-r~rvice can ncYerthelcss bo discharged. I know the J\Iinistcr is rather keen 011 doing away with honorary medical o.ffiecrs altogether and getting paid staffs in th0 varions hospitals. That may be his objective or idoal, but poroonally I hope it will not be realised for a long time. Tlw patients in our hos pitals get the benelit of the skill of tho most accomplished members of the profcs sion and specialists. The advantrrg-e is nol. all to the patient, because the medical prac­titioner i~ keeping his hand in continuall.v and increasing his kno1.vledgo.

A Gon:nx,JEXT 2\ln!BER : He is rtractising on the public.

:\lr. :\1:00RE: That is not so. C.Ianv of these men eould haYo all their time cccupied ill 1 heir private practice. The:<· are prac titioners of a very high standard, yet they devote one or bvo days a \vock to patient'' in the hospihl.

:\[r. HA YES: Thev learn and get experi once there. •

::VIr. 2\IAXWELL: They give their expc·rirnee to the hospital.

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1793

Mr. MOORE: They are doing a very grcnt public scrvjcc, and have done ever since hospit[l\_, came into being. That sys­tem is not like an inexpert practising on patients. They arc giving the benefit of their skill to the patients and at the same time _are increasing their own ability and expenencc. They have been of great value to the State, and I think it is quite a mis­take to suggest that they arc an excrescence on tho hospital system in Queensland.

~fr. DONNELLY: Vihy not pay for their ~en·icc;;;?

i\Tr. ·r-roORE: Thev do not want to be paid for thcit· servic.cs. They hold that tlwre ·i an obligatiotl on them to give part of th·ir time to the commnnitv. It is a qucPtion of hnsing- a full-tin1o 1n~dir1-l ~taff. wlH'n~ yon ct~rtainl.v 'Yould not gf't th0 3aU1C' dcgrc~· of pro~-lcicncy or service.

~!r. IYATEH~: l do not think YOU k"OW \Yhnt yon vvant. ·

}Ir. :\IOORE: clo "ot care whether the lion. 1110111 her ftQT('eP or not. It does net n1nkc tbe dightc~st difference.

The prcsPnt '':Rtem is to tho a<h-antni\'e of the commnnitv. I shoul<l not he afrair1 that the bo;,rds woulr1 misnse their YC'r~v ,vide p(nvcrs in this respect if they had on them a majoritv of local people. but when it corncs to a qnf'-:tion of r)o~itjc::; and Gov0rnn1r:nt policv. it i!" po~,"'iblP that then' maY be a desire to get rid of hil!hl-v onUlift0d honorarics \Ybo h:1ve given valua bl<; >rrvice to a hospital for many \'C'nr; The ~1l,!If(Pc:tion vvo11ld lH:' rnndc that th(' l1onorarv svs.tl'rn be discontinued in a particnla.r lu}ep;tal and that, co,Jl<l lw clone. Qu00nd~11d 1:-::: a State \Voulrl lo:;;f'. a:; wf'H as P1e cli;;:trict. C0rtninlv in Too•Yoomba th,: valu0 of honorn rv work· is r0eogn~sed. as ia n1anv other citlCs 2nd townS-, for lYe rC'ad rr{'•-;lth7 ::::orr10 very eulogistic r('fC'rPnccs to rnrdica·l nH'n in that cjty who had ~·1vf'n vcars of tbC'lr li£0 to honorary snrvicf', and .it -...ra.s sought to p1acf' on rcc.ord nn appre­ciation of the valuah1P sPrvicP thr~v had. rr>ndcn d. rrhr> Ur'd('rl~T;Jlg' lYlOtiYf' f~r thi..: prm-i.oion in th~ Bill mny b0 to get rid of 8omronC' who j,.; incon1pch'nt oe a chu.!! fl(1diet. or a dip~nmnn;~r. or hn.:-:. hcrn !YU11t_Y of unproft~~~slonal condnri". but that power. as far os I can g·athcr, is thrre now, and in acy case the matter conld be dealt with through the British Mcrlicnl _\s<ociation. It seems to me rather a pity to stress the pmYer of hospitals boarcl, to di,pcnoe \Yith thC' sr~r-..-icrc:, of honorarief:.

I notice that the Minist<,· has include[] dnuc:.f's to mert the C{!f<C hronght forward b,- the hon. mcmber for Tom;-oonlhrr~the c~se of the "1Iomc of TIC':::t." 'rh0rc a.r(' ouitc a number of homes, and T euppose i11ct tl·lC provisions appl·· to all the Sulnt­tjon A rmv honH-~'3 for a:::-cd rnt1 n and tl1c St. Clnro IIo'O'tC'l for aged \VOnlcn, and sin:i1'll' jn~tftution-s. IVIanv of thcs; arc doing­f'Xcellent work ancl provic1ing Comfortable homef.

The SECRE'rARY FOR HEALTH AKD Ho~IE AFFAIRS: Quite true. 'This will give us an opportunity of vindicating them in vicv .. · of the aJtacks that have been made upon them.

:\1r. MOORE: I know the sugg-e>tions that are- made. bnt I an1 wondering- h-01\ far the', chlu:-:e~ \vill ~o. They sccrn to g-ive 'vid0 powers of invc. tigation, Dnrl a]1parontlv t\joro can be a complete disallowance of

1936~3 L

such plae~s. If thev are canier1 on in a wav that is detrim"ental to their inmates the~ should be closed. Sometimes, of course. YYhen people g<'t olcl they become dis· grnnt1f:'d through trivial UHlSPS. If they w<'ro shifted to some otllPr place they Yvo,lld probably grumble in the same way there.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Howc AFFAIRS: They may not be capable of look­ing after themsches.

Mr. MOORE: Tlwt may be so. but th" matter will have to be collsidered net ham the point of view of projudiee or +hA opinions of only one or two jndividuals.

I presume that the members of a has· pibth board will be elected by a local authoritY or local authorities after the lor:11l lmthority elections have taken place. It '.C'On!d i>l' absurd if those members \Yel·e Plccted !J, the local authority prior to its triennial ·c1cctiou~. The LocUI UoYcrnmeut Bill prm·idcs that whrrc flood, or fi:·e, or >omething like that preYents the holdmg of local authoritv elections the date of the election mav "be po;tporwd for whatever pcrio(l i~ ne-cessary, but there is no provi­sion in this Bill to extend the rlate of the election of local rruthcritv members to a hospitals hoard, and I think it shou1cl be included. If the 'Minister can extend the date of a !oral anthoritv election it would be .foolish to allow the 'old local authority to elect the local authority representatives to a hospitals board. The Minister ehould aho take power in this Bill to extend the r1ate of dcction of local a'lthorit:,- rcpresen­tati,-es to a hospitals board in extraordinary circurnstances.

The Local Government Bill alco provides thaL the accounts of local authorities shall be audited by the Auditor-General, or that h<l may app;Jint local auditors to do_ the \York but this Bill cl or s not contam a sirnil~r provision. It sa.vs that the audit of tl1c accounts of hospitals boards shall be carried out by the Auditor-General, or one of his officc•n~not bv someone th'Lt be may appoint or approve o~f. I clo not quite know the rca•on for th" difference. Another part of the Bill virtuallc- provides for a continu­ous audit, an audit scyeral tin1cs durin~: the year a'1d uot only at the end of the year, so that the board will know its position exactly almost continuously. I do. not quite· know why the same procrodure vnll not be followed in this Bill as is set out in the Local Government Bill, which provides that the Auditor-General may approve of local auditors to carry out the work of auditing the accounts. These provisions will mean ttn extensiou of the work of the Auditor­Goncral',s Department and probahly tbe appointment of more audito,rs. I cannot see any reason "hy competent local auditors should not be allmYed to audit thB accounts of hospitals boards, f'>pccially when the Auditor-General is empowered under the Local Government Bill to appoint local auditors to audit the accounts of local a,uthOl'itics, which cover a much wider field than those of hospitals boards.

The SECRETAHY FOR HEAL'l'H A~D HOME AFF\mS: The officers ,of the Auclitor­Gcncral',s Department have always carried out the hospital audits.

:\fr. MOORE: Always?

The Srcm:TARY FOR HEALTH A~n Hmn An-AIRS : Yes.

Mr. 11fom'e .]

1794 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. MOORE: Much time and work will be involved if the work is to be carried ont solely by the officers of the Auditor­General's Department. I want to stress the fact that the Bill provides-I shall not say for a continuous audit, but for an audit two or threl' times a vcar. That will moan a good deal of time 'in travelling, if it is to be done onlv b' officers of the Auditor­General's Depai·tn~cnt.

The major part of the Bill deals with administration. Its main features arc the po\ven of the GoYermnent over the board the collection of the precepts, the basis of collection. 2 ne! the powers of the board. The powers of the board seem to me to be too v;i de to allow of a satiefactorv condu­sicn to be drawn as to what a ·hospitals boarrl cannot do. llncler the Local Govern­mcllt Bill a local authority is given power to govem in its own area. bat under this Bill a hospitals board is giYcn exactlv the ~anw pO\Ycr. So \Ye have an overlaPpino· of authoritv. From this point of view th~ powere of hospitals boards are enormous. I l hink a ho,pitals board will require to han! more definite information as to what it is suppmod to do. If it were confined to tlw hospital boundaries we should at least know what the basis of its authoritv "as. I do not know how far a hospitais boa rrl wlll go m the matter of pr~v-ention of chsoase. \Ve may find that a hospitals boar,d may deem it to be its dutv to take drastic action \Yithin its bounda'ries, and then kY, precepts on the local authorities t_o fl:>ance . its \YOrk. It would be quite .Jl"tihablo If. for <''<ample, an outbreak of \Y_c,il's c1iseaso \Yas likely. A hospitals board nught order all sugar cane \Yithin its area to be burnt for the purposes of the prm·ention of disease. A short time ao-o the Minister sent the Director-General of fiealth and 'Y1Pdical Services into the North to find out just what ought to be done in rc·,pert _of T\:eil's c1i~easf'. A sug-gestion was made bv h1m and an Order in Council was issued that certrtin work had to be done. but not by a l1o~pita ls hoard. ·

The SErRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD Hmm AFFAIRS : The local authority neglected its

<>duty.

Mr. MOORE: Was that the dutv of the local authority, the hospitals boarr{ or the Industrial Court" There seems to be an O\·crlapping of authority when it comes to wirlenin'r the sphere of influence of each authority. vVe ha\e a position ari,ing under the Health ~\et under which the department can take certain action and the local authority will have no say in the matter cxccept in the provision of the monev for someone else to spend. The local authority 1 s get_ting into _the position of being a collecting authonty for all these bodies cha,rgcd with the spending of monev in its area-the local authority mtHt take the l'('sponsibilitv for that. L"oca1 authnritv ~; ork is brcomin.g. by no means an enviable task. f01· ae each :Minister comes along he per-, ccives that the easiest method of obtaining money to carry out work in a local authority area is to put the burden involved on the loc.al authority. which is compelled to leYy sufficient funds, and then to permit some other body to spend the money whethPr it agrees with the need for the wori< or otherwise. \Ve arc thus departing from the basis of local government. If the Gm-()rmnent arc anxious for all these things

f.i11r. Moor-e.

to be done, and think that in the interests of the people they should be done, then the cost should be borne bv thP Government themselves. It should not be done on the brrsis that we have reached to-day. It is a remarkably easy way for the spending authoritv. but a vcrv distasteful one for the authorit~, that has to raise the money-the local authority. If the Minister goes through the list of things local authorities have to pay for he will begin to realise that too heavy a load can be placed on them, w1th the limitt•d source:". of income they hnYC'.

I trun tl1at bc,forc this Bill is passed tl:e ~Tinj:cter \Yill thoruug-hh~ inYe)tigatc tlu position as regards the t~axing methodS' that arc lli'O\·ided for in this Bill, so that \Ye shall not conti11ue to do an oln-ious inju:;. ticc to a yery largc- ;ct:tion of the ('OHl·

munitv. It ma,· bo difficult, but. after all, tl1c prc~er~t ba;;:.1s Of taxation is uot an effectiYP one. \Y0 l1aYc to r0cogni:-:e ihat apart fron1 the erpta1i':ation of tlr· bunlen therP is al~r) the q ncstion of tho benefit dcriyed to be thouc;ht of. Tlwrc is the qucotion of a la rgc; population in a town "\Yho necessarily rc•rt·iYe a. \"t:ry 1nuch greater benefit than a population :-ocaticred throughout a large area. Hoi]Iitcd taxation should be on the hn·.i;-:; o-: 1ovlwt tho indiYidual c;;n nfl'ord to pay, and hcnefit received. If that principle \'·ere carried ant it would not be so bad, but there is the feeding a1nongst primary prQ­rlnccrs all oYPr the countn- that they are being plac0d in a position they ought not to occupy, and that is the brsis of their objec­tion. The :Ylinister knows as well as I do that the ayprage farmf'r or grazier i:; quite willincr to pay his share of the cost of hospitals. b'1t he feels that he is hanng a bnrrlen placed upon him that he should not be asked lo carry. It is anrlO_ying to think that people in the city who are earning: quite ln rgc annual salaries are contributing a pennY. ,,·h0r0ac; thP man earning n liYing on the land is contributing £1, and has to rlo it irrespectiv-e of \vhat amount he earns. Owing to seasonal conditions he nl<lY fi1:d hitnself running- into dobt and sho\,.-ing a his; lo~·", and -tlwn he rereivc ... a bill for a large• amount for tho ho.spital pr(~cepL That rai2c~ tho irP of anybody ,and makes him fe~I that ho is not lwir ,; just!v trnatNl bv the (joyernmcnt. It ic th" administration that counh in all these thinps. Tf you adopt a fair and rcasonabl'' method of socurin.g the rerruisite· finance yon wi11 find not llostilik but co-operation. It is O'Ily 'Yhen people fePl they ane bein::; unjmth· treated thctt tho:v ,show hostility anrl kPcp up a ronhnnal ngit 1tion for fc1in'r treatrn0nt. I think the l\1ini~;ter recogni~c\c; the trutJ1 of that. Because this svstem has Pxistcd for some vears does not·· make it right or any bctte1~; on the contrary, it n1ak0s it worse, because the cost of hospitals is g-row· ing, and people arc beginning to feel that they ,r.;;hoal(l get proper ,·a.luo for tbc amount 0f rnont':~' they haYe to contribute.

T do not knovv \Yhat the 1ntentlon of the~ GoYl'nllnPnt is or bo'v far they intend to go '-Vith Governm0ut control, but it :o;0f'Il1:3 to nF~ that y; c should get far better co11trol and nlOrt' cconornicaf achnini·.tration, and one that would suit each district bolter if thu people prm·iding the funds were not out-YOtcd on CYCl'Y OCC'asion b:v norninec~ appoiutPd by th·,~ Go\·f'rnmc•nt. The IliinistPJ· .-...ajd that a poliee magi~trat(' is a loca.l rt1 siclc>nt. l--Ie is ollly tetnporarily rc·,itlent

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1795

111 a {listrict. and a schoolrnastcr oe station~· nlrt"tcr i'3 in n ~irnilar chv.;s. ~\ftcr alL it ls d1c pPoplc 'vhose honw~ are in that dlf'trict and who a.rc oLtaininrr tht~ir 1iYing tlit>rc {vho an: rnost int•restC'cf and to m\' rnind they arc the o11cs \Yho' -.lwuld ha ,,·0 most say as to the constitution of the board. The local residents, who are elected to the local authorities, and who are using the hospital and contributing to its cost, should be 1 he our-; to ha YO the rnaj ority voice on the loarc!, and thus be in a position to control the ho pital.

Mr. KA:\E (Rast Too, oomba) [4.59 p.m.]: 1 do not \ViPh to proloDg the debate but I han; a few ren1arks to n1akc. I beliPve the Dlll i~ introducing a nc\v era in hospital and heaith a Hairs g·eneralh·. It is char­acteristic of the progrQ.'JS irl these 1natt('LJ that the Minister in charp-e of tlH' Bill ha< been making for some time past.

. I. bt)ioyc there is still n1orp ~cope~ for 'llglltcrllng up. I think I was tl1e first one to rrwntion the rnattPl' rcfcn·l·d 1o lr,· the ho~l. rncn1bcr for Aubign5·-aud Le i·~ not go1ng to be the la:::t 0110 to IllC'11tion 1t. I l'f'fPr to l1-is reference to rrn rPrnark ~ on JJrC'­Yious ocf'asions to the r'ffCct tlwi· jf ct'riain conrlitior~s ,1ll'CYailcd in crrtain instit~ttion~. they 'hould be prohibited from operating. There is no justification for sa~·]nu that ec'r­tain clau~0s \Verc incorporntcd i1~ this Bill merPlv lwcause a few old ]JC >plc got crotchctv. I concedP that olit llCOlJle l1aYc tl1C'ir 11'ecn1iari­tics and 1HlYP to b0 lnunonrec1. but' there is rnuch n1nrr• than that conc0rning the condition~ :<!JJToundiug thf',,e in~i.it-ution" tl1at giYP ri:-:c io tLc dra::;tic pl'0\·1·--~on.-: induclt.:'d ln tLe 11i11. I welcome the ti!thtcnin~ un of tlw organiso.Jion and control'- of institutions that care for the sick, the old and the ;-onng, and for abnormal people. It is not enough that a layman should impect the managemt'nt of mstitntwns financed bv the public. The staff 111 control of horncs for a(rrd persons and other similar institutions sh;uld consist of a c0rtain number of mcdicallv-traincd people. The home that I particularlY referred to on a11other occasion in the IIo~1se ha~ not one such pt•rson. It j~ not cnouo-h for ·\YODll'll to take the title of "nuttron r,': and '' ~jster." rrhey ~honld undC'rgo the ll{'('('i'::::ary rnc'clieal trai~1ing before doing so. Sucl1 3. ~tatc of affC~Hs \\O!tld not be tolerated in a public hoc pi taL and snch a )lracticc should 11ot br' allo\Yed to cont1ntH-~ h1 a pri\'atp ho~:)ital. I arn sure that IYhfn tl1c GoY0rnmC' 1t c.Hiccr 'i~its sw-h hmnco;; and tPsts tl1P!r ,C'Pnuincnes:;:; he will point ont the nred for l1a~·ing a cer­tain nnrnb0r of rnPdicall \--trained n1cn and \YOl11Pn on the :-taff. Th01:e i~ no lll1lll on the :-taff of the hon1_e I haYc rrlcntio1lcc1. rncl it i~ not rig-ht that an jnc:titution f:hould be conu:ollcd onh· "·ornen. \Yhc·JJ aged men arc inmat0 s of a hon1c it 1~ iinpo~·sible to keep the required order \\·i,h onlY thP ~er-vires of V\'orncn, cspcciaH.v in a co1nj)OU"!ld where therf' are t-wo da:-"'.es of peop1P ·who ar'' allowed to roam about from hut to hut. \Vithont the sorYicc~ of proper \\·ardsm011. who are rE'qnlrC'd in hnc.;pita]::;. it. j~ irnnos~il1lc to rontrol ,.;;nch horne~. and thcr,.·forc I '·":clcon10 J·hc,,e provisions of the Bill and congratnlat~ the :\linister on their inclusion. ..c\n oCca::-ional Yi~it frorn a governor or dignator~· a11cl the consequent publicit\· will not ,afi,fv the nublic. · ·

After all, it i, public money that ;, U'<'d for the carrying on of these instihnion~. It ;, a public rcoponsibility and a lllcdic:ally-

trained staff should be in attendance. The attendance of medi('al rncn is carnoufla.gcd. 'The doctors may make a friendly call. I knovv of an old rnan just recently releast•d horn this homo, and the doctor only saw him once in the period of his stay there-the day after he was admitted. The doctor has com­plained that I rriticiscd the home unfairlc·· 1 say that he hirnsclf was due for a '~crbtin amoimt of criticism. The aged bedridden peoplo at that borne arc now lwing- lJrou~ht out and put in the sun and gcncralL· looked after. Thc~e pco.p1e were formcrh: dr:-;ignatetl t1s b,,dridrlPll. Since m·: statement. tlrTP has bPcn a snddcn stir a.n10~1gst tllo~e l't'Spon~iblc. \\·ho are nO\Y irnproving tbe conditions vf tht> inn1atf'~ and renoyating tl1e accon--:rnodJ.ticm. That i'·, a sufficient justification for rnv ch"rgP, and the proYlsion:- i11 this Bill for in:-pr·etion will ntPan i hP clisapp('arancc of rnan.v ~u('h homes ilwt ha \"C flourished up to the prcsrnt.

Mr. :'viA HER (lfrol Jlor<lon) [5.31 p.m.: Tn rcg-a1 J t1) the 11oint rai~E:rl by the hon. DlC'rr1hCr for East Touwoon1ba as to the jn:.nec­tion of ]!Olllf'S for the ng'f'(l. I rcc··ntlv hac1 il ]f't.tPr frorn an inmate f~·om such an i~Jstitu­t.ion. v.-l:o~f' c ornnlajnt \Yas that thP Con1-llluni:;;h a11d 1Jlternat1o~lali~t"' \Yho \\'~'rC:' jnuuttro;; of the hmnc g-ot b\·o fJndding:- ('Yf'l':V

week. wherca.s the Brit-i<;:lter~ rr>c('iYcd one muc1ding a ~vcar only. I rlo not kno1v whc~thcr tl1P :\1ini:3ter propo:-es to cxpPnd JTioncy on inspr'rl:or~ to inYPstigate ('0111p1a]Pt~ of 1n'-i"'!ates snch as that.

1\Tr. 1\:AXE: Surely lie would not spend one minutc talking about such a complaint?

Mr. ~1.-\IIER: I am !tlacl to h>tYe the '1%Ul'·

ancc of the hon. member. ~.\fter alL some of tltt._•se aged inmates of o1d n1en's hoJYw:;;. nnd no rloubt old \YOrncn's horncs. too. han~ fan­cic'd grleYancPs. \Yhcn vve reach a certain ago we all get crotchety, and even when an atmosphere of kindness and g·oocl treatment pn'va113. son1e aged people irnagine tsriev­aneps and assert. that the matron, snpennten­dent, and medical offic0r arc in connivance.

:\-fr. KANF.: There arc responsible relatives. They should know.

iHr. l\IAHER: Not alwa0·s. .\ftcr all, families are :::on1eti1nes s'~~·rycd b\ a littl0 sentiment, and arc apt to accept as gospel the statements or complaints of thos(' \Yho aro inrnatco;; in thesP institutions. Then~ is a. natural lPnning in f.arnilics to their relatiY~s. If a brother or other member of a fam1lv is an inmate of a home it is only natural that the relatives \Yill have a definite bias towards anv statements he may make. They are inclined to sec reel, and" their hearts get 1 ho better of their judgment. \'\hen the~e com­plaints arc boiled .clown the~· are <>ftcn found to be fancied o-rievances, and not a'' bad as they are pictnr~d. The hon. member for East fJ'oCnvoou1ba has :;pokcn in this Hou~c on two or three occasions about the "Home of Rest" at Toowcomba, bnt e;-en-thing is not just as bad there as the hon. member alleges. I should he sorrv to think that any matron or board of n1ana~gf'mPnt in a hon1c \Vould go to the lengths suggested by the hon. member.

}\1r. KANE: I am sorry to think it, t.oo, but it is right.

Mr. MAHER: The main objectionable fea­ture3 of this Bill arc the increased pm;-crs of the central Government over the ho 3 pitals boards and committees, the prcponc!Prauc" of Govcrun1ent rcprescntntion on the hospitals boards and the method of financing the hos­pitals.

Mr. Maher.]

1796 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

In regard to the first point, this Bill, like the recent Local Government Bill, indicates the contempt of the central authonty for the local authority. The Government have assumed power to veto decisions of the board because of their majority representation. The Bill then goes so far as to say that the Governor in Council-who i." really the Minister-may rescind any resolution of a board or committee, and may prohibit any Bxpenditure. ·what authority has the board got left if thB Minister can v·eto its reso­lutions, detern1inations, or decisions?

:Yir. HILTON: Suppose the d'.'termination was an unwise one?

Mr. MAHER: Is there any certainty that the :\Iinistcr's determination will be a wise one? There must be some good judgment., responsibility, and experience amongst the men who sit on those boards, and surely their judgments and resolutions should be sound. Yet the ~1inistcr takes the power to rL·~cind a rnajority re.;:;olntion if it does not suit him, and can also prohibit any expendi­ture. It is a very drastic power, and the board will be merely a dummy in the hands of the contra] authority. rrhe Governor in Council also has complete power over rnles and by-laws. Apparently the hoard will be there just to register the wishes of the central authority. I recognise, of course, that from a sensible point of view the Minister is not going to interfere in everything, never­theless, in some things of vi tal concern the :Vlinistcr. for son1e reason or other, such as loeal jealousy or because of representa­tions that are made to him, can defeat the objective which the board IS seeking to attain.

The SECRETARY FOR llEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS: Obviouslv it would be s:nnething very vital for the Governor in Council to interfere.

"'Jr. :YLUIER: I rocogillse that it would lw an ~~xtraordinarv ca.:\f~ in which the Minister intervened." and I hope he would do :-;o onlv 011 such occasions. But it is Bxl!'aordin~t'y that the :\linistcr should have j10\\ PI' to yelo the rcoo!ution of a board or t-1 interfere with its expenditure. In the Health Acts Amenclmc·nt Bill the power is gi;-cn l<' the Director-General of Health and !1Icdical Snniees to compel local authoritiea to carry out such ·work as he rnay direct, and alf'o to DL·ko such appointmPIJt:; as he n1ay thi11k desirable. ~'he sarue prir~~iple i.-; therL'. I arn ·not sure" reading the BilL ,, hPther the Minister makes thP sP!cetion of mcrlico.J snpcrintcndPnt~ The boards c1dl applica­tion:-), vvhich llll!St he subn1ittPd to the J\Iinist0r, who will rdt'r them to the Dir· ('\or­General. It will be all right if the Director­Gcnnal is able to go through the applica­tion~ rpcciYccl and indicate to the boarJs \':hich applicants arc suitable. but j~ it implirr! in the Bill that the Minister will go through the applications in conjunction with the Director-GeneraL and make a clt>finit{~ l'C'('ODllllC'JJdation of onp of th1•nl '( I hope that the Minister will give wl some inforn1ation on that point.

The preponuerance of Government ropre­scr;tation on the hospitals boards is another feature of the Bill. The Govornment take a majoritr control, claiming that they are cntitlccl to it l>0came they contribute 60 per cont. of the financP. I disagree with that view, and contend that the local authorities, being the people most directly concerned, are

[J1r. Maher.

entitled to a majority on the boards. Under the voluntary system the Government paid cmdowments of £2 to every £1 of local col­lections. and allowed real local controL J'\ow, the Government pay only £6 to £4 and take full oontrol. There is a difference in principle. In those circumstances how can it be expected that men of real ability will l>e found prepared to waste their time attending to hospital affairs? On the intro­ductory stage the Minister laid great empha­sis on the importance of this principle, but although he advocates and recognises the value of lor a! control, he departs from it in the Bill in favour of a new rprinciple of Government control. There is no warrant for this preponderance of Government repre­sen.'ation. In my opinion the local authority should be allowed ono more representative on tho board, and the Government should have one less. There would be some reason, wundnc.,s, and equality about that proposaL

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HoME AFFAIRS : 'l'hat is all right.

Mr. l\L\HER: \Yill the hon. gentleman accept an amendment to that Bffect?

The SECR~TARY FOR HEALTH AND Ho~rE AFFHRS: If the local authotitios are pro­parr ::l tJ provide 60 per cent. of the differ­ence bet>\ een the estimated receipt, and expenditure.

Mr. MA HER: There you arc! The straight-out nationalisation of ho,pitals would be better for the local people than this Bill. The obli,.,;ation is on the Govern­ment to proYide the greater amOLmt of the deficiency in hospita.l espendi~urc. . Th0 royal commiosion that was appomtPd m 1930 to- investigate this matter ec;tablished the very important principle-it io, a pit:• that the Ministn did not carry it out-that the difference bdwren the estimated receipts and expenditure should be provided in this wav-that the GoYernmr'nt should find 80 p01: cent. out of tlw p!'Occ.eds of our >Yages, saL-1ric~, and other inccn1e tax.

The SECRETARY FOR HE.\LTH AND Ho11E AFFAIRS: 'Who recommended that?

Mr. ::\L\HER: The. royal cmnmission that sifted the matter and w·eighcd up the pros and cons of the situn tion. That is one of itf'. rcco1nrnrndations.

;\Tr. KrNG: Why did you not adopt it"

'\1r. l\IAHER: There were reasons why wc; cFd not adovt it. At that time the denr, '.slorl "'\Ht.·, at its ·worst, and the Govern~ mr;IJt thonght it undesirable to impose a hospital tax of that nature when they found it ncressarv to intrcduce a rchef tax.

l\Ir. Kr;G: \Vlw did you have a royal corrunission to i1H1L1irc into hospitals·:

]I h. l\IAHER: TG !Htve recommendations furnished to Uo. vYhv did the hon. member support a royal comrllission into r.1-cing .and gaining? Conditions havo ~hanged since 1930. when this recommendatiOn was made bv the Roval Commission on Hospitals. If .. ,~f~ ca11 aCcept the figures in "Econo1nic :0J e,,,,s " a~ being accurate, the nurnbor cf unemployed to-day do not justify th~ con­tinuaJ;ce of the relief tax. Accorchng to those figures the GoYermnent CJ.n give effect to the recommendations of the royal corn­mission in 1930 with greater afrty than it .. ,, as possible fer the llfoore Gove1rnment. to clo at that time. HowcYer, that IS beside the point. That royal commission did not take political considerations into account at

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1797

all. It merely inquired into the most equit­able method of hospital finance, and it recommended that the Government should contribute 80 per cont. of the difference between the estimated receipts and expendi­ture, and the local authority 20 per cent. Therefore, we have every justification for asking that the hospital obligations imposed on local authorities under this Bill should be c•ased, and that, far from the Govern­ment's beiug generous in contributing 6Q per cent., we can fairly ask them to pav 00 per rent., so as to accord with a recon1rllen~ dation of that roval commiscion which weighed up the evidence and gave' its con­clu3ion accordingly.

The SEcRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HoME AFFAlRS: Your Government did not give effect to it because cf the depression?

}fr. MAHER: The clcpression had a big beanng on the matter. I think that was ono factor.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Ho:~m "\rFAIRR: The then Homo Sccretarv, 11r. Pcterson, told an entirely different st'ory.

Mr. :\IA HER: He •vas in chargp of tllf' department, and he wonld knm\' the real position. He \\·as a Minister of the Crown and I "·as onlc· a r.ank and file member of the G .vurnnwnt Party then. I do not know at this stago .in2t v. hat n1io-bt hav-o actuated tlw thrn :Yfinistcr in the ~ction he took.

The SEORicTARY FOR HEALTH AND Hmm AI·T\TRS: He gave an entirely di-fferent reason.

Mr. :\IAHER: vVhatovor mav have been his rc?~otB for not giving effect fo the recorn­mendations of the commission the 1;oint remains that the commission in its findings stated that 80 ]Jer cent. of the cost of hospitah \Yae a fair contribution bv the Goycnnncnt nnd 20 per cent. ':vas ~ fair coutribution by the local authorities.

The SEC'RET.IRY FOR HEALTH AND liO\IE AFFAIRS: That is not stating it correctlv, either. The cmnmission rt1 co'mnwndf'd th~tt 80 pPr cent. of the cost be obtained bv a special tax on wages. V

Mr. :\IAHER: It recommended that 80 per cent. of the necessary finance be obtained by a tax on wageR. salaries, and other income tax. That is onlv fair. It is a just principle. All of us b~nefit bv hospital adrninistrntion. and cvervone should be preparerl to make some con'tribution towards the cost of hospital maintenance. That is an inP~C'1pabl:v ju6;t princinlo. It i~ rccog­ni~ed in othPr StatP~. \Nostcrn Australiit, in addition to levying an unemployment reliC'f tax, also imposes a hospitrr]~ tax on eYen rnc>mlwr of the communitv. I do not think anv section of the comn{unit" woulrl object to contributing to our hospitals. I knmv it i.; r·ather difficult to ask the people to pa:· a tax to maintain hospitals whilst the 11resent heayy 'memployment relief tax is in operation, bqt almost everv individual ~bonld be willi1lg to acc0pt his ~;lu:n·0 of thC' respon,ihility for the maintenance of hospi­ta1.s .. There itS no argument against that prmc1pl(', and although the present mav not be a con.-enient time to introduce it, the princi plc is nevertheless sound. \V c se" it in operation evervwhere. Under our voluntary system of 'maintaining hospihls by public subscription people never refused to contribute. It is only in the rarest instance that anyone would be so stony-hearted as to

rcfuw a request for a subscription for the local hospital.

Mr. HILTON : If that is the case how is it that so manv of our hospitals have been " districted "-?

Mr. :\fAHER: Apparently, some districts arc not prosperous enough to maintain their hospitals, and it has been found advisable to apply tho " district " provisions. Many hospitals ":ithin the State arc still being run on the voluntary basis. In my experience there has a h.-ays been a ·disposition on the part of the people lo suLcribe if they are asl,ed, but people in certain areas may lack initiat1Yo in raiaing money or there may be people who may not want to do the ncccs:-:arv hard work. In those c1i:3b·icts wh0rc t'he p<'oplo have the initiative and inclination, however, they usually contrive to rai~e enough money to maintain the local hospital.

The SECRETARY FOR HE·\LTH AND HO:IJE AFFAIRS : Ha YO vou ever tried to collect that money? -

:\h. :\fAHER: No, but my wife used to colkct when we lived in Ipswich. She found that all clas""s of people resl1onded remark­ably well, and that those who responded to the greater degree were tho very poor.

Tiw SErRETAHY FOR Hrt.LTH AND Ho:nE AFL\IRS : They arl; the most generous section of the community.

}fr. '/\L\HER: I am not disputing what the Minister says by interjection, but I do '"'Y that c.-cry class of the people, including thf~ poorest of the poor, rcf'ognise their obligation to help in the maintenance of their hospitals. It is only necessary to appeal to their fcelingo to raise tho funds. It is a pitv that in some districts it has been found He('Cssar:v to enforce the "clistricting '' prm·isions, and it is a greater pity that, haYing done so, the Government have not bern rnore gPnerous in the matte1· of their contributions.

'ih~·rc• i· al~o the cp~C'-.;.tion of the loc;ll nuthorit:v representation. E1oction is aceord­ing· to the nun1brr of mrmlwrs nf car:'h cmn­prment !oral authority, but it should be according to the total .-aluation, and, there· fore, according to the amount of the precept available. Anomalies arc inevitable. Let u~ take th0 cac..:e of a local n.nthor~.. tLnt. ha' ten mcmi.Jrrs ;md n .-oJuat;(m of £200.0SJ and a loc<tl e,lll horit:· thnt lws seven lllC'Jnber~ and a valnahon of £70J,OOQ. 0nd ar!othrr '--ith t11irtecn ll1Cillhc ar';d :t

Yaluation of £350.000. Tn th- 111a: lt'l' of tlwsC' sn1<tll :-:h1rr.s coDtrol the For cxecmpk, a local antlwritv

that has scn'n rncrnber::;. and a Yaluation of £Efl'l,CO'i \vill }n\'e to ·~ub::;cribc ncarl.v hvic~, ns rnnch a th0 lmal author:tv t1Htt ha~ thirteen Illl'lnbcrs a.nd a valuation uf onlY £350.000. The larger area with tlw

valuation i;:; in point of rcprcsc'n-:_a-in r1 \Yorsc posit~on than the s1narcr

~hin: v.-lth the larger rncn1bcr"hip. \V·~ rnig-h~ takP tht' po~jtion of the ~Ioreton shin\ \\hi eh could }!a\'C thirtet'n ll1ClnbPl'"'

anrl a valuation £350,0001

as ag<t;Il~t :tn aJ.joi11:ng ~hire onl·, E=CY('ll Il1Prtlbrr~ a~c1 :· , la!'~t).r an L ancl a ...-.-aluation of £vOO.>vO·-'. Tw :,I.o~·.- ton ,.;;h-ire. on iis nunl­Lcr of mr1nbcrs, ha;5 ncarlv tv. ice the vot.ng ~t;·eng·th of thr~ ~IlJallo:>r countrv F.hire. The poinl I make is that the bi"is of local authority reprp;:.cntation js wrong so far <:>.s

lfk 111aher.]

1798 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

the clc~r~t1on of DlCJn Ler:~ i~ concerned. antl thcl'c .should be a nev: ba.sjs.

The SECRET,\HY FOH HEALTH AXD Ho,rE ..::\.FF.UHS: \Yhat you are trying to get at j,.;;

that thP local authority should have repre­sentation on the board according to the con­tribution it 1n::d~cs to the board?

2\Ir. MAHER : Ye . according to the con­tribnt:on it rna.kos to the board, based on tho \-aluation.

The SECHETAHY Fon HEALTH .\XD Hmm A:FFAlHS: A few ruinntes atro YOH dt~nicd the ri~l1t of the. Cov0nnnPntt) to ha Ye n·rn·o­scntahon according to t1H.:ir contribution.

. Mr. :\1AHER: A different principle i mvolvC'Cl. Tho hon. gentleman is getting away from the principle of local control. \\'e reach a po.,ition whNc these :Jmall<'l' local authoritic'.~ hayc• a gre~dPr power than tfw .larger I:odics. The position should bo rt'ctliJcd, and n•rn·r~c·utai "ion ~JJOnld bP in proportion to total Yaluation. TJ,e Dcpntv LoadPr of th" Oppo,ition ckalt with thi., phaec of tltc' (jllf'<tion H'rY fnlh-. Ho eaid that 1vlwt \Y'a l'C'C'Oli1HlPn.ded l)Y tbt' rova! cor~nti~:-;ioJl o£ 1830 ronld WC'll ·hP ace •pied ~1.1 rlti~ casP. If the principlr' of th0 Yaluc.t-non. plu~ lHnnLrl' of rat(_·pa, plns. dF total rate'> Jp\-lt'(L d1Yided 1r- wa~ adoplc·d. it would he• in th:~: i'ltcrc~n of t'qu1t.v. Tlult i~ the po~nr i11voln d. If tlL· re:pn ..;pntation \\a~ on tlt·' ha~i:-:. rrcornruendcd }Jy the• royal COilnnlB.~;;ion. thr_:o r~o,it'·)!l u·o~;lcl b(' fairc 1~ tltr:n at prc·~l'llt. ·

ffhc Roval C'onnni.~~ion on I-Iospitals in ~930 rnadc~ ono of its tnain n•r·orumendations rn fa :·our of a d1ango in the method of a-:sessrng the amount payable by each com­ponent local authority. At present tho amount of precept i' in proportion to the Iota! Yaluatio!l of unimproved land within each local rmthoritv an'a. This has led to a good dPal of trickery, and is unfair to those wlJOsc livelihood comes from lane! occu­panr:v or 0\YnPrship. Certain local authori­ties haYP drocrca~e-d their 1-·aluations and irwrca.secl their rates with the object of getting thl :-anlP rc,·cnth~ fol' tlwn1sch:cs but at tlH' sa1nc ti1ne r~,ra pjng Eahilitv unde~· the l]:ospitals \et. In. this respect t'hc commis­sions recomrnendat1on would l1ave been most valuable. bccanso it supplied a just. method of ~tnkrug a l)as1s. If this r( :·on1rncndation of the' conJinisi'lon had been takPn into account it would haYo lwlped to obviate the tnck("r:v that I ha\"P nH:ntioncd. and at thn same ti;ue it wou]cl han' distributed the coRt. '1f npkcnp oJ ho~~pit.~ls in a more equit­able IlJaill1Pr. l)ndrr tl11s SY~tcn1 tlJC extra e?s.t to the large nnn1l)(~r Of ratepayers in crbes anrl tcnYns \Vonld bo infinit<·"imal but th0 rc~Ii~f to lar1cl hold0rs (•ngavr~l in pri~na.ry productiOn »-ould ),p apprc•c·Jable. Tho whole trend of Labour administration appeal's to be to in1po7-'e n1oro and rnore of the cost of hospital scn-ict?s upon the local authont1c-". wlnlc at the san1c time taking a\Yay their po1.v0r of control.

Going hack. a few vcar', the Hospitals Act of 1928 pronclcd that all lm·al collections should be creclitctl tmnncls the share pay­able by the local authorities. Speaking on that 131]]. the thon Home Secretary, the Hon. J. Stopforcl, saJcl-

" "Gnder prt·,ent colH1itions. if a person donated £100. say, to t ],,, Mount ::Uorgan Hospital. £60 of that amount >Wnld be utilised in liquidating the Goyornment's

[Mr. Mahcr.

share of the liability. the rcmainiitg £41} going· towards tho liquidation of the share of the liability upon the loea]ity. \\~e desire to altar that. . . \\"e wish to provide that the full amount will be· credited to tho localitY . . . . That should largely restore' the Yoluntary effort."

In 1932. howeYer, the amending ~\et pro­Yiclc•cl that 60 per cent. of loc·al collections should be credited towards the Govcrnment's~ share, and onl.v 40 per C(•nt. towards the share of the local authoritY. That \Vas an abrogation of the wry wn;1d principle that eYcry po:-:siblo encouragcn1ent should be give~ to local effort and to local generosity .

I regret. to say that the Bill i'"' ont' rh_ar does not lav down a J'Pall"· sound and satis­factorv mcihod of hospib~l finance. There will l;c a great deal of difticulty in getting the primary producers, \\ho have to carry the groat burden of local finance, to rema1n ~ati~flccl under an unfair t'ondition such as this. 'Ihc Minister mav stifle their protest' for the t.irno being·, hl1t when a thing is unjust nnd \Yr·ong- tbo protC''·t wil he- repeated until it has heen <eoJTN·tecl. ~obody can conYincc JW that it is right that the land~ O\YnCJ'S shonld be selected 'tc• carry the great burden of hospital finance. v,hilst in the towns bu~iness n1C'll. profcs.sional nwn, and other lanclhoidNs escape with relativelY light conunitrnents. It is an unfair principle, and it has cansPd a gr0at ckal of protest in eounil·, ar<'<:l~. and \Yill roontinuo to do f.:O until the ba~i,~ of hc~·pita] finaJlCP is altered. h~t.tcr representation i:~ giYen to local anthontles, ~~nd thP principle of Io\·.11 control ls Inore full,- takc•n into account than it is in the pre~c'nt Bill.

A ycr-v grAYC in.iu~tirC' i~ dm1e undf'r the clauses of this Bill that. penalise members of a local authorit:; for ach~isiug or Yoting in fa ,-our of non~1m:nncnt of a precept. \Yhv sho;l]cl :-nch an unfair and unjust pcr­~·Jnid di:-;qualilicatlon bP pcrrnittcd? The· bo~pital:-:. l:oa rd has pO"'>YC'r to rccoYcr from anv loco.! anthnrit:v tlte amount of precept. Thrrc ]:3 no fJUPstion about its rigl1ts and po\Yc•r;;;. H·l\~ill,U' giYf'11 th; board that powcr'­

.. why has the 11inister gone furthr>r and prO\·idcd that C'YCl".Y m~rnbcr of ~ loral authoritY vYlJo con~Pnts to a refusal to rnect " prc•ccpt shall be liab]p to pay such a snm? Tl1c responsibilitY i~ nlaccd upon th,,_, rnerrl­ber of the ronncil. :Hi:-) position n1ight e\'en be PJHlangerecl if }w protests again"t.. 01~ rr•fthf'S to· pay, or YOtf>~ for the non~payment of any 'uch proCPpt, and he can lw forced t.o pa,- the RJIJ01mt imposed. The Yinn.ster JS not ~atisfi0d \Yith a dra.~tic proYISlOn of that kind. but adds t!Jat members can he clisqnalified from mcmbcr>!tip of the local anthoritv fnr fiye years thereafter. There is no neCd for such· a proYision. These men c:nryjne on local aHthuriti<:'.--l are entitled to tl~c th:~nb of the conmmnitY. The,- do not rN'CiYP :;n~· payn1Pnt for th0~r Sf'rYices: tl.1ey g-ive dH~ir time and ~penU thcrr n1oney cornrng In to attend the tllf'etillf!S. and thoy hke all the critici,ms that arc forthecmiug-aml there are plenty.

The SECRETARY FOH HLALTH AliD IImrE AF.FAlRS: Does the hon. gcntlcn1an snpport dH•In iu floutjn6 rhe 1vill of PnrlianH'nt:

}\[r, J\L\HER: I do not support anybod:: in flout.ing the la''T· but CYents ha...-c occurred at tin1C'~ ln iiJC hi~torv of Ill:1nkind wbere tbe l::tw has been flouted in a just cause,

Hospitals BW. [26 NovEYIBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1799

and if it had not been fo1· such happenings much of the progre'S would not have been made the benefits of which we now enjoy.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD Ho~rE AFFAIRS: The law cannot be broken in thnJ, regard with itnpunity.

Mr. MAHER: A just law inspires confi­dence on the part of tb e people, but if th" Government are too arrogant and unfair in thei1· administration of the law they mav eubject thcmseh·os to the risk of those things. (Government interruption.)

Mr. SPEAKEH: Order !

Mr. l\IAHEH: \Vhen men feel that thelr conununity is suffering an injustice infllcted bv the GoYernment~ vigo1·ous steps n1ay bt~ t~ken to oxprc" their disapproval. I rlo not think that the Minister should put that section in the Bill. Just because he had a dispute with a member of a country local authority he wishes to u"' the big stick con­tained in that clause. Tho :Minister knows that h~ will never be called upon to oxerusfl that power, but why put it there \Yhen the Bill otherwise gives him all the power that he rwed~ 't \Yhnn a board in1poses a precept the local authority muot find the money, and if it cloPs not the le.:ral remedies are then•. rrlwre is no need to rnako it a personal matter. Some local authority councillors of a timid nature mig-ht be afraid to express an opinion for fear that the Government would come down on them. There aro such n1on, even in local authorities, \Yho have a Jear of the pmYcr of the law. I know mpn who tremble when they g-ot a leitPr through the po't \Vith .. O.H.M.S." on it.

The SECRETARY FOR llE.\LTH .\XD Ho'm AFFAIRS: They rru:ty have consciences.

Yir. :\I \HER: ::\ot at all; it is inexperi­ence in such rnattt:rs. They fear that it is sorne dmnand-perhaps frorn the Incorne T'a~ DcpHtment or the DPpartmcnt of Public Lann::;;, or the Agricultural Bank-~orno impossibl8 dl•rnand upon tl1crn by a Govern­ment department. 1 k•,ow timid soub who reallv tremble and have to hand ouch a letter to their wives to open and road to thorn (laug·hter). or thw: ha,-e to have ,omethin;.: to steady their m•rves. (Henewod laughtPr). The councillors might a.t last have to h"ve a bottle of whiskv at one hand and a packet of Aspros at 'the other to steady their rwrYos against the clif!icnlties that might confront them if thev happened to take a stand on something they thought vital.

1 for>! sure that the lime will come 'Ylwu this Bill-or n1a.ny of its lllO;St injurious pro­visions-will be ropea!Pd, because the people will not stand for a Hospitals Act of such an nufair nature. The ~\linistcr \>·ill find, if he moves through the country districts where this Bill will be in operaticn and hospiiais haYc been ·· cli~·trictrd," th~tt tlwrf' is a unanimous feeling of protestation against ihc Ycr~v unfair pt·oy]sions in n~g.ard to the bases of hospital finance and control.

Mr. SPEAKER : Order ! 'The hon. gc•ntle­nlan has cxhau~tcd the tin1c a1lovlcd hirn under the Standing Orders.

1\fr. ::\fULLER (Fassifcrn) [5.44 p.m.]: haYc been looking fonva.rd to the introduc­tion of this Bill for a considerable time, . and now that I have got it, I am, to say the least, very disappointed in it. If I inter­pret it:3 contents rightly_, I may sum Ul1

the Bill by saying that it is something slightly better than the present Act, but far short of what we expected from the Mm1stcr. 'rhe i.Vlinistcr has an opportunity now to rectify some of the wrongs that have been suffered by country people in rcg<crd to hos­pital taxation. The Bill repeals the Hos­pitals Acts of 1922 to 1933. and the oppor­tunity is available for introducing some­thing better and more equitable. The operations of the Act that we arc about to repeal inflicrc'd vPry great hardships on country people.

I cannot help fe"ling that the Minister and the lllClnbers of thP UoYETnn1cnt hav·~ not a true eo net 1:1tion of the \Ya v th(' ...:\et ha~ operated in the pa~t, otbcnvl'::::e rhev IVOtdd

be hu!Y~aue C'ltough to alllC'IHl it , o as to pro­\-idr fol' a n1orr• equitable srhenH'. If \H' an' going to cout-in~l'· to tax onl~v one section of Hw connnunii:· to 1naiutain oar ho~pitllls. IYC'

can expect to hll\-t' di~sati~faction throug"hout the State. Ti1c 1\Iinist(•r repcatedl:v told llll' that it was the int('lltjou of the Goyernrrlf'nt to introduce a fair Hospitals Dill. but this one dor•> uot make for equity at all. I am .'atis­fi,·d that even· section nf the t:omulnnitv is /H'Ppared to cOntribute its fair share towZtrd.;; the co~t of n1ai1Jl!'t-ining ih !Jo..,pita1s. I an1 u.!~o ~lll'l' that \YagP-f'anH)l'~ and :-;otlaricll n1eu arc prepared to ~houldrr tli('ir fair ~hare of t h;-_; obljgation. 1{ost of the cm1111laints COlllP

froru fanners and landholJcrs g-enerallv. The rnajol'i1.Y of profc..,sional n1cll and public I"Cl'­

\·ants arc big-n1indrd encugh to adrnit that. the\· shmdd be a..::kecl to rnake a fair conti'ibu­hn~ towurds the cost of hospitals.

ThP Bill ain1:', at ('OHlpl('tl' nationalisaho!l on the udrnini:-:.tratin• ~.iclc of hO;c-llitTl.~, bnt when it con1es to providing· thP nPC'Pf'~ar~­finan cc. the 'anH' old ston· i, told-thot the landowner 1nust bear an u~rduc pro~wrtion of the cost. Like tlle Deputy Leader of the Opno,ition I do not likP the idea of the n::tt'ionalisation of hospitiil~. but if v.·c art> to ha' p national].;;,atlon on t1H~ aclministr·1t.iYe :~idc. \Y<' rni~h· iu··t a~ well haYC it on thC> Hnanci;J.l side. toO. It i~ C'.'f'ry·bocly':', bu:"illc-3s to n1a-int in the ho~p-itals in a pro~)C'l' wa)·, t~ nd. t1Jcrefon•. ('\-Cl'.'> ~cction of thr con1-n:pn]ty ~hr-nlcl er~ H{'d PCOll to lK·nr their fair 'ha1 of co,t. If the wholP oi the flnn.ncc's \Yen~ proYid0d by th0 GoYC'l'lll1l\nt thr_'rc c ~ulcl lh' no obir<'tion to their d( .Jll'C [·o ttdmini.,trr th0 ho~q)itals thernsclY('S, b~1t t1tat j:-:: ln· no rncan~ the Cfl"C' allfl yet tbr: T}11l giYPS tb'e l~o ('rnor .in C?lntcil Yt'r.Y w1do pOIYCl'~ lnd0cr1. It ~1-.;-e:;; lt1n1 no-;\-rr to ;-C'~'1 anv r0~olution or anYthing that the ho:"p1t) 1.:.;

bo.:rcl IlJ.aY do. It i~ ab:-::urcl that. thC' GoY, r:nor in Cnnnci1 ~hould llaYf' to rC'"-='ind nnv rr _.o1ntion that <1 tnnv carry. It SlH!~ gr ;t, tJ,at th<'r0 ;, no PPOcl for a board at all. If the ·G-oY<'rnmrnt are g·oing t.o rPtanl thc­rio·ht to cli~rf'~{arcl anytl1il'~· tbat it. Ir'1.Y do. th~·n t1H'r0 j:; r;o 11_ecd for it. T rcp0rrt PHtt ~he D111 proYide.:.; for rwt ior~ali~ation on th.e adrnini~trat-iyc thP 1n<'n1 anthC?l'I~ tic o.; an-· ~till to find a pronort1on of thP rC'YC'llUC' h:.- ·,-. a)7 of a tax on 1anlL

ThPn' a1·c a rnnnbcr of profcssiO.!JdJ <lJld :.. .lat'iPd men. iiJrlnclln.\.~· puhljc t:~ervanb, eal'!l~ ing up tn £800 ancl £1,000 a _\'Car_,who "''\! not bP called l'i~;ou to f'Olltnbutc a · dccner to1.~. Rrcl..; .tl1c ui)k!;cp of the h?;;::pitals oth~l~ thrm tlH•Jr ,hare d the 60 per cent. of t.' ltospital rldicienc:· th:1t ;, paid b:' the Gm·cn': mE'nt ont of eo-- oLd_dC'·d rcYenuc. Bu1. JL

s!toLdd be remen'bcred that the landowner . \Yho is a !so called upon to contribu_lo 40 )Wl"

cent. of the deficiency, as the :Ylnnstcr calls

IYir.1rl~tller.]

1800 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

it, also contributes tow:nds the CJ per cent. that is paid out of consolidated rcvemw. It is well known that a nun1ber of busines3 people on a quarter of an acre of lane! 1·alued at, say. £200, will be CO!l1)l0llcd to contribute' only 16s. 4d. per annutn toward~ the ro:-.t of hoF,-pital1). That is grossly unfair. and for that reason I cannot help feeling that the Minister and his of!icers who have cJc,igncd this Bill ha1·e not given due consideration to it.

A few days ago the' Minister told us that a certain squatter who had complained of the cost of hospital upkeep possessed 33,000 acres of land, and that his contribution towards the maintenance of this hospital was only £5. I wish to make this point-that the Government by this legislation are not getting nt the squatter, but are going to hit the small and struggling farmer, who will be the greatest contributor to hospital son-ice. To-day the squatter is forced to occupy leasehold land. Tho leaseholder is not a big contributor, because leasehold land cannot bo rated to the same extent as free­hold land. This legidation merely selects the small struggling farmer to pay the whole cost of hoapital n1aintenanee.

I should like to make another point in connection "-ith the position of the small farmer. \Yhat wonld hon. members estimate a3 a fair area of land for a man to occupy for dr~irying or general agricultural pur­poses? The other dav I said that £1,200 would he a nominal ;mimproYerl value of land for such a purpose. Thorefmc, a rate of 1d. in the £1 on the unimproved value of that land for hospital purposes would mea11 that this small farmer would contri­bute £5. The average income of a fa:m of that description is in the Yiciuity of £200. I stress that point; the ::\Iinister has overlooke-d it. On the other hand a person having an income of £800 or £900. and holding only a small area of land, contributes almo·.-t nothing. Moreover, statistics show that onlv 10 per cont. of t,ho farmers own the freehold of their land, the remaining 90 per ccnt. bein!l' held on mortgage. There­fore, thoso farmf'rs arc being taxed on some­thing they do not own.

'IN e are not complaining about the repre­sentation of contributors on the hospita Is boards. The Minister has acted fairly in reducing that representation. I comn1end him fnr doing so, as it enables the repre­sentatiH'S of those bodie' who contribute largely to the income of a hospital to have a larger say in its disbursement. At the present time contributors receive a direct benefit. In consideration of a contribution of £1 to tlw Ipswich Hospitals Board-and I take it the position is similar in other districts-contributors under the group system arc entitled to free medical treat­ment not onlv for themselves but also for their wives arrd three children up to sixteen years of age. That is a \-.~onderful invest­ment. I do not call it a contribution at all. Take the case of a familv of four-a husband, wife. and two children. Thev contribute £1. ·which means that free medical senico is obUtincd for 5s. a head. I <,ee nothing in this Bill, however, that provides that such contributors shall receive free treatment. The people who contribute the revenue !-'hould be given greater representation on the board.

I 1nak(' the point that thP obj,:ct of rhc Goventnleut in in1po,~ing inco1ne taxatjon i:~ to

[i1-lr.1vlullc1·,

make the pcoph' bear the btuden who .are best able to do so. I subscnbe to that pohcy. I think it is only jmt that the people wlw nrc in a po~ition to carry a fan~ sha:rc of taxation. whether in rLSPPCt o£ the D1tunten­aucp of, hospitals or atlything PbP, ~hould be asked to clo so. \Vhat ;von!cl be wrong with applying that policy to the main­tenacnco of hospitals? \V hat would be wrong \Yitb introducing a hospital finance eysten~ La r.:,cd on the principle of unerr11Jloyrnent n_,]lc'f tax or incon10 tax? By the adoption of ~ucl! a, ,·vstcrn the rriVtlC'Y would be col­[pctcr! frum' the pPople gPI;orally, and not fron1 a Sl'ction.

The clan~e dealing with th0 change OYer ie one to 11hich I oLject. There will be a. gTave clanger that part of the funds kvied by the loen l authorities for hospital purposes w1ll be placed to the crNlit of the nPw hospitals board. It is very difficult fot a local ~nHIJOrit-.-,T to strike a rate that ·will ('Xacily meet the precept. It is Hcce"·ar,,- to allm'' a 1nargin \YhPn stl·lking a general rato­OII'ing 1 o the difficult'' of co'lccring the fu:l auiolinr. and that difficu1tv will br> accen· tuatPcl ~\'hell the adcLtiollai hoRpital rate i' inqJo'-ccl. Local autl-,orii-;f' find it 11~ c·p~:' 1r:. to ::-trike a rntc of one penny whL•re three farthing:-: would b(~ -<Hflllle. bL•cau;;;;c of t.hPir inability io collect the full amount. \Yheu t ht• ItP1~' bo~llitals board i::; appointed there i.;; a. graYc danger of its taking UlOIIey that 1 he loc·a I authoritv has collc•ctc'cl for anothc'r purpO-"t'. \Yhcn there i::; a ~mall .snrplus the ioc-d autlH>r:tv carr1c.- it on to tl--~e follo-~ring ~~~'?.r and thuS reducos the· rate for that ,-;ear.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD HO}!l ,\Ff.URS: The hon. nJemOer ].., quite n;:;;ti·ay

rcqu!r· "·

The local authorit\T CO!ltribuh•.;; exactly tlte arnCHilH the lJoard

}k :\lCLLER : The Bill H not clc·ar in rt>;n.1 rd to that, and the -:\Iinl<:.:tcr ( 111

apprecig,.tc one's suspicion~. IIad the coun.try rcople known that the Hospita:ls ~'.et '· on!c1 irnpu:-w ~ucb a bPaY~' pcnalt~T on ihP ("Ountry people lll<lllY of tlw Lo~p;ut] di~­tr:c·t~ would not have been crc•atcd. Perhaps ,. ,_, haY~ rea.~on to bt· ~u.;;}lic1ous "\\'hen vve :-et~ :-01lH'th ing in thr Bill that i;:; not a.s <'}ear a' it mi!;ht. be·.

I notlc·,' tha-t. there is a proYision ln the Bill that giYcs ihc Goycrnor in Council corn, pi de control ovN 1 he ho>pita ls l oanl in regard to the appointment of a medical ,;.;npcrintf•rulent. I object to that power';-;. iH'illg giYcn to the ~Iinistcr. be{ a.u5e I feel the ho.;pct:ds board is r,:sporr,,i!Jle for the \';ork of the ho.~JlitaJ·-;; in thP di5trict of whi{"h the-' snperint('nclc•nt 1nay be in charge. :\Jc,clica I snpcrintenrlents so met imcs think they O"l.\Tn the ho~pital:-;~ and uncle!' tl1i::-:. c:au:3P .all thc:v rwe'd tlo is to go to the :Hinislf'r· and ~ay tht'Y objPd to c _•rtnln direction.~ of tlcc board rtncl the :\finisler ,-ill hal-e pmYer to sc·t aside• the policy of tbc board. I think thrrt i~ unfair in the hig!H t de. rf'c.

I notirc2 that the :\Iini>trr alld his ofh~cr, arc io bc' n1adC' imnlUIH' frorn any lcgai action, and to that alm I obj"ct.

In connection with the po;vcr \'Cstecl in the Governor in Council with regard to hospitals boards there can be a Y(·r··~:-' serious danger in thP po1vf'r to re·:;cind a l~e~·olution carried by a board. ]~his provision can haY_o a very far-roacLing effcc·t; it doe~ not apr1ly Lnercly to \Vorks. The l\finister has the

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovE:IIBER.] Hospitals Bill. 180!

power to compel a local authority or a hos­pitals board lo launch out on some largo -expenditure. "\n instance may illustrate the point I cl, ;ire to make. At the present time the Ipswich Hospitals Board contem­plates the expenditure of £40,000. ~'\ssum­ing that the majority on that board Yoted against the proposal, tho Minister could, if he thought the expenditure justified exer­cise his pcn.-er and instruct the bo'ard to proceed with the work. The :Minister has that power.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A;:.;D H01IE AFFAIRS: 1f it rc-olves to do it I could veto it. but not if it does not.

2\Ir. MULLER: If the Minister has the pO\Yer to yeto or oYerrulo .a. decision of the b,·arrl, ther" is no need for its exist­ence. It would be just as well, if the Governrnent ,,·i::;;h to have these vo,vcrs, to appoint full-time public s<orvants t.o adminis­ter and control hospitals.

I am aware that tho Minister haol already the pm;-er to take over voluntary hospitab, but a muubcr of those shires that haYe not cmne within the provisions of the 1-Io;;;pita]~ Act" are prepared to put their bc,;t foot fonvard in u.n endeaYour to ilnance their institutions. There is the instance of the Boonah Hospital. Boonah was included in the Ipswich ho>'pitals district. Prior to the declaration of the district thP Boonah ho:<­pital had a credit balance of £1,400, and was qnjtc happy a.s it \Va~. The people in that district had a good hcspital scnice. \Ve were informed that tho reason the :\linistce had to stop in and include Boonah in the lpswiclt ho.spital district was that the building- was eaten "·ith white ants alid infested with cockroaches. Definitely, that is an untruth, and I tell the ~\Iinist.er and tho hon. rncmbc,. for J pswich that ho knew that statcrncllt to be untnw when ho made it. I invite tb< hon. member for Ipswich, or any other pl'rson, to inspect those build­mgs and show me white ants in them. I have 1nado an invr~stigatjon sine~ the .allegation was made, for l am not in the habit of n1akjng wild stat('l11Pnts; I arn rea:..onabh~ sure of rny gTounds bc{ore making a ~tat8-mcnt. After that stat.cmont had been mad<:l in the Home hv the hon. member for Ipswich-- '

Mr. GLEDSOK : I did not make such a statement.

'Mr. MULLER: I mado inquiries and found that st.a.tement to be ddinitcly untrue. Tl1c c ')mrnitteP that rnade that inspection and reported to this House that they found white ants in that building" wc:ro not rnaking a correct staten1cnt. All that \Yas found was a. bit o£ rot. \ bit of pine ex11osod to the 1.\Tl·athcr naturally r)orishcd, and a rrlcrn­bcr of the delegation happened to poke hi,, penknife into that particular place and found a bit of deca "ed wood. Ho came back hero and said the place was eaten with white ants. l do not \VtllJt to rake over dead bones, but I wanted to 'n-ail myself of the OJ1portunity to reply to that state­ment tLnd prJve that it is most Ull\Yisc to vest thcsB powers in the :Minister to ta.ke over hospitals that arc quite happy unde-r the voluntary system. This is a specific ease, but it a pp 1icb generally, bee a use there llre other hospitals committ<:les that to-day arc having difficulty in financing their afflairs. rrhe rnomont the property owners know there is a danger of their being " di•-

trictcd " thcv will make an effort to pay their wa.v and avoid b<:ling included in il

wide hospitals district.

Another power to which I very seriously object is that by which the Minister claims to abolish boards. If a board is not carrying out its funrtions to the satisfaction or pleasure of tho :'>Iinister he can <Lbolish it That board has been elected constitutionally, and if it is doing its work as a public body -and it does it voluntarily-the Minister has no right to abolish it. Almost the IYholc of the administrative power under this Bill is yestecl in the Crown, and upon an cx.a.mination of the Bill one finds that the hospitals boards arc of no account and are merely in the po,-ition of dummies to act according to the dictates of tho :'>Iinis­ter. If they rcfnsc to do that, they take a risk of being wiped out at any n1oment. If a hospitals boa,nl is elected that does not suit his >Yishes he has tho right to assign a local authority rcproscntatiYe to it. 1 think that is set out yery definicly in ono chnsc of the Act.

The SWRETARY FOR HEALTH AKD HOME AYF.'tiRf:. : Tlv~ hon. rnern bcr is n1ixing the ho'tJit.cb committee >vith the hospitals board.

:'>Ir. ::\IULLER : I should like to ask what is tho cl iffcr ,'nee betl.-crn what the hon. gentleman calls a hospitals committee and what is a hospitals board?

The ScREl'.UlY FOR HEALTrr AND Ho~rE AFFAlllS : In a voluntary hospital it is a ~ommittnc. hut if a local authorit.v >Yas C'Olltrihnting it \Yonld ha YC rcprcscntat~on on it.

}h. i\lCLLER: I accept the Minister'' explcmation. "nd I take it that this clause refers to a bo,pitals committee. There is a certain anwunt of confusion in tho Bill >Yith regard to hospitals committees and hospitals boarcls, and cornpulsory hospitals and volun~ tar~· hospitals. ·

The Sr~ORETARY FOR HBr.Tn A;c.;n HoME ArTATRS : There is a distinction in the Bill.

?lh. :'>:!teLLEr:: Thc,·e a clause that the Govcrnm· in Council ha•. rip:ht to fill an ordjnar,v Yacanc.~T. and he also po1vor to fill anv F'~trrtordinnrv vacancv. In ordinarv local g-ovt>rnnlont, when a rne'i11bcr of a local governing body ref-igns or y.a,cat('S his office, the local. anthorit~v appo-ints a successor, and the hospitals board should retain that power also. lf we· arc goiug to take the whole of the cm•trol out of l he hamls of the hospitals board \YC' n.r':' not g-iving to the locri.l pcop1c duo 1' ·prc-_,crt:ltion or -t. 1H·opcr voic2 in the admin1~tration. A \Ycck er b-.'o ago wH \YCl'C discuc:.:,iug the Local Government Bill, and atnoHgst oillf•r things found that it \Vas the purpo~e of the GoYt,nnncnt to gin~ local goycrniug bodies greatt-r poyc,;rs. To that 11olicy I hcartih sub.;cribe, but we find that that doP; not applv to the hospitals board, a body that is pcrharh of as much import­ance as the local authoritv. In r11anv cases it i~ 11andling more rnoney:, and its rCsponsi­Lilitics arc just as great. Onlv rc::;nonsiLlo i.ncn ax0 appointed, and \Ye sh~ou1d ~be pro~ IJ"red to trust them and give thorn greater powt~rs.

I object to that clame in tlw Bill >vhich, to my mind, means intimidation. It is quite wrong to make provision in tho Bill to deal with a member of a local governing body who sees fit to express his opinion

Mr. Nluller.]

1802 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

in regard to the administration of a hos­pitals board or local governing body. I cannot help feeling that this is a shot at Councillor l\llnrphy, who, perhaps, was responsible for instigating the movement for refusing to pay the hospitals precept. I am not advocating for a moment that we should protect anyone who acts in a rebel­lious '"a), but I contend that a 111Clnbcr of a local authority should be allowed to express an opinion. What would be the use of my coming here as representative for Fassifcrn, Mr. Speaker, if you were going to deny me the right to speak my mind? W c speak hero under privilege.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD HmrE AFFAIRS: \Ve do not deny the Bungil shire councillor the right to speak his mind.

Mr. MULLER : The Minister does. The start has to be made somewhere. A mo;-e of that kind could not be made nnless someone ts prepared to start it. If a member of a local authority held that the Government were unfair he should be able to say so. This clause prevents discussion of the matter.

'rho SECHE'l'ARY ron I-IEALTH AXD HoME AFFAIES: No.

Mr. MULLER: I contend that the :Vlinis­ter has brought about that state of affairs. No shire councillor would advocate in pub­lic a refusal to pay the precept, knowing iull well that he would be likely to be dealt with by the Minister. The Bill also pro­vides that he may be Jisqwtlifir d as a member of a local authority for live vears. That is a very unfair penalty. .How c,:n we lwpc for good govermnent when we do not allow local governing bodies to speak their n1inds?

I claim that local governing bodies chould be allowed greater representation on the hospitals boards. \Ye are very thankful fm· the slight consideration giYen under the new Bill, in that it provides for four local government representatives out of nine rneln­bers on the board, as against three pre­viously, hut I f2ol that the local councils are justified in claiming greater representa­tion, and the number of their members should bo increased to five at kost. If that was done, the local goveruing bodies wonld not deminate the board. Doubtless, the chairman appo[nted by the ::\iinister will be a n1an \vho does \vhat the l\1inister wants him to do. It should be left to the board to appoint its own chairman, and the Minis­ter should not reserve to himself that right. These things should be given careful col'l­sidcration, because the country cli,,tricts have to find the money, and it is surely not •Jnreasonable that they should have equitable •ept-co,entatwn on the boa:·d.

Another clause to . which I object very .!ltrong]y lS the prOVlSlOll that a SflCCia.l hos~ pital rate must not be levied. \Y c do not know the r ea',on for that. \V e can on! v assume that the Government do not take much pr[dc in the Bill. and arc afraid to state the rate of levy for the special pur­pose of the maintemcnce of hospitals. If i i is right to inrposc this taxation it is only right to let the ]Jeople know what it is, as in tho case of other special rates, such as hght1ng, ·water, loan, or cleansing rates. Surely a local authoritv should be allowed to strike a special rate for the maintenance of its hospitals?

I feel that the Minister has overlooked a matter in connection \vith the appointment

[Jlr.1J.Iuller.

of the local authoritv representatives. I ha vo referred to it before in this Chamber, and I cannot understand why the Minister has not proYidcd f<.,r greater equity in this connection. The Leader of the Opposition 1nade soniC referenL'c- to it, but the argun1cnt can be carried a great deal further than he took it. There arp a number of small shires in the State. and wh('ther they should be allowed to continue <-Is ~uch or not I am not prepared to say. The fact is that the:. cx[st and thcv make the position in this cmm~ct[on very difficult for the adjoining larger shire,-;. There are son1e shire;:; in southern Queensland with a total unimproved land valuation as low as £100,COO, whilst there a re otheJ"s \\ tth a total valuation of £700.000. Desp[te the fa<·t that there is a big- difference in their respectivt:~ Yalnations th~'rc i~ not a great dl•a.l of difference in their Yotino· strEnf;ths in elreting loca! r._u_tho­rity reprC~sentabYcs to hos1>~tals boards. I ha Ye in 111incl a YCl'Y slnall shire not a rrrcat cli:-;tancc fr01n B1~i~bane consisting of SPYcn rnctnbers. ThL·l'e a 1'C othe1·s Ycry little largc1·, with ten n1ouber . .:. bnt again dwre arc ot1wrs of perhaps tbreo tirnrs the .-.izo, Lut v1ith 1:o nJon· HlC'tnbcrs on the <·outH·il. ThP La5:i~ of the Yoting sh·ength i.-. quite \\T01Jg. If it if' 1·ig-ht that the- pre­cept ~.houlcl Le paiJ ou ~ of HJOilC_\ c:, raised bY a levy on the untmpr('YNl valLw of the L~ncL then it is also right that the nun1ber of members on the council should be fixed :"UlllC'~,.·1l'lt in proportion to the total ratable YahH: o[ the ~hire>, bL'Cuusc thc'e lllClHbers l'IPct r ·pte,Sl'lltati,·n 011 hospitals bmLr<k I do not sa v that we should be exact in thi~> conneetiorl, that VYC :-:bou]d gc·t do\Yn to frac­lion~. 5'0 to speak, but it ~ccrns quite IYrong that a s_:_n;:Lll ~birc should haYc the san1B yotiug strength as a :-:.hire ten titnc;;; a~ big --v·it h \Pll t irncs tl1e total unimproye£1 land Yrtlnation. and ten tirnes ihc population. \Ye know frorn cxpt'rit->lH'P how this policv ha" wo1·kpr] out. iu 1n·actice. I haYo UH'ntioned it to the J.Iinister on nreYious occ:1 ion8, and he knows ho1. it oncr:ltc~ in connection with the ne·.\ Ipswich Iiospitals Board. I do not wish to \York the parish purnp--

}Ir. PoVv'ER: X"" ou ha n~ nearly worn it out~

J\L-. ~lGLLER: I do not \'>tsh to compel tl~t). hon. nrctnbPr to Ji~tcn to !ne. 1-10 n1ay not 1Je interc;;;tcd. but I fed that. t.ho othei~ hon. members ue. The Iwwich CitY Council has a total unirnpl'OYed land Yaluatiou of £676.000, whilst the other shires in the hospita]., distr[ct have a total unimproved valuation in the vicinity of £1.969,804. So 1hat Ipswich has a valuation of about one­third of the valuation of the shires, but the; Tp.:'IYich rcprc-scnt.nti\-cs arc virtually the­board. On that boarcl thf'l"e are onlv two l"<'Jlrescntatin·s from the shires with a" total valuarton of £1.969.804. as against one repre­S(1Titntive frmn Ipswich IYith a valuation of £676.000.

~Ir. GLEDSOX: The>l'C j:~ one loca.l authority rcJH'C'-cntatiYc fron1 Ips,.ri·ch and two fro1u the shin'. That i; fair repre,entation.

:Hr. MULLER, That ts 1vhat I said. Ther1J is one rcprc"''cnta.hYe in respect of a '"cduatiou of £676 000 and two representa­tives in respect of a valuation of £1,969.804. That prarttce i~ going to extend throughout the State. and it would not be inconvenient to the ~linistcr to g-uard again~t a recur· ranee of that kincl of thing. That is typical of what is likely to uccur if wo pursue the

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals B,izz. 1803

jlrcsem policy. I do not wish to plead a cnse that is not justified.

We arc not getting at that section of the people "·ham the Go,·ermnent intend to tax. The present method of taxation is not at ,d) democratic. It is the policv of Labour that the ,c but able to bear taxation should do so. I haYe no objection to that prin­ciple; it is only fair. Therefore, every person ··lwuirl, when called upon, pay his fan· proportion of the necessarv ·Laxation. The biFC landholdcr is not affected bv this tax. As I said, he is genorallv a ~lease~ holder. He has been scared out of t1rc closely­~cUl0d areas, and i~ not greatly concerned in this question. Tho same remarks apply to those persons \·. ho arc receiving what is regarded as good sa 1-a.rie~' rrhe acction of the counnnnity most!:. concerned arc the farrnt>:t~s, '' ho at the present time are not rnaki11g Pllough to buy food and clothing, let alcmc a liYing. The hospital tax mav not appear to be YO'Y much-I mentioned as an inotance that a farm with a valuation of £1,200 would l:c assessed at £5 for hospital trrxation-lmt this £5 is in addition to a number of local authority taxes ho is called upon to pay. I do not deny the jllstice of n . .;:k1ng the fanners to rnake sornc contribu­tion to public health services. At the present time they arc contributing to the construe· tJon of main roads, the cost of which in these da,vs should not be borne hv bndowncrs alone, hut by the \\'hole comn1unity.

The fact had been mentioned that the Moore Government had not seen fit to amend the hospital legislation as it existed then in order to make it quite fair and equitab!P. Evc'r~-olw will ndn1it that conditions aro changing Yery rapidly. The Hospitals Act V\ as frnn~cd only a few years ago, and it is ,only clnrmg the last few years that a num· her of hospitals have been "districtecl." It is on[,,. during that period we have dis· COYcrecl jnst how unfair this form of taxation is in its incidcncP. I candidly admit that it was only durmg the last few years that I haYC observer! how dangerous it was going to be. The GoYernment should be a little more lenient and sympathetic to people hv1ng 111 country districts. No one can con­tinne to live on the land if these taxes arc to be imposed on them. Life on the land will be mado impossible and intolerable. It is not a questio11 whPtiH'l' one fayour~ thl8 form of taxation or not. The question is : Is the land able to bear it? If not, it is only a case of their leaving the land. 'What is going to be the position if the people now on the land retire to the cities and towns? It is only natural to assume that if the Go,·errtmcnt oYerload those people ''··ith taxation _w~wn they are endeavouring to \n·c~,t H hYJllg' frrnn thP land, they will in tum cndeayour to find work in the city and enjoy all the amenities of lifo to be found there. It is only because the people of tho land are land-minded that they are r0rr1anung there under present conditions.

I make a plea to the Minioter that he should again investigate this matter very carefullv. I feel sure that he posscsse's mlliciont humanitv to be able to extend a little sympathy to people on the land.

J\Ir. PLUNKETT (illbert) [7.24 p.m.]: The incidence of our hospital taxation is not based on correct principles, because the greatest burden falls on one section of the people Should the landholclers carrv the groat bulk of financial recponsibility f

Thi .. Bill is the greatest advance made by the' GoYPnnnPnt to\Yards the nahonaJis~tt-ion of industr.v. It does not go quite far f~nough, lJC'eaLhf' \\hen a (ioYcrumcnt start ont to

aHything iht'.Y should g·o the \Yholo wa.'.~, tl1c prcs,:nt polic~, of scnl.i­nationalisation of hospital serYice-:; and l are of ilH p0ople i~ placing the l'{Y~pon~1bility on one scet-1on of the }W01plc oulr. If it is tlw dutv of the State to care for the sick and tl'O"' who an' uuable to look after them. sl'lYf'S. then the co~t ~hould bt• borne bv the ·wholC' of the people. It is oi:l,v :1 fl~"- :years .-:~nee thf' GoYennnent placed 1-hc re .... ponsi­hilit.v on local authorit.i" to pay for the cost of trcnting contagiouf) di;;.;oase:-. in their aJ·eas. The <.Jrgumf'nt in support of that polic.\~ -,-..,-a,, that 1-l1l'n~ \Yas n rP~ponsibi1ity 011 the local authority to se£' that its area. was kept C"lean. If it wns rirtht to do that-and th£' Labour Party at th;,t timo said il; was right- thc'n it logica!lv follmn that the 1 hole' of the rcspmr<ihilit.v of financing our hospitals should fall on the whole of the people.

The PIF-:\IL: ... R: The princ1ple of control of C'OJJt<tgion:-:~ clis( a (L, was adopted before' the Labour Party was i he· Goycmment.

:\Ir. PIXl\KETT: lt. \Yas not paicl b;>' the local aut LoritiPs.

TJ:e PRE~\f!ER: Tt. "\Ht:-'. It '"n,~ introJuced b:: yo11r preclccec<or, t!te lute :\Ir. ~"-ppel.

~Ir. PLL~XI-cETT: That principle was quite '.\Tong and 'iva:;; carried on bv the Labour P 1rt,y. I "'.'\~as COJJncctt>d ·vvith tho~conucil that had to pa;~ orw-tPnth of its rcvPnue ~11 one :-.:ear on account of an outbre-ak of a con­tagious disease in tlw area it controlled.

Tlw PnnnER: You haYo a look '1t the Health Act of 1912.

:Hr. PLU:\'KETT: That m a" b. so. If the recponsibiiity has been on the. local authori. tics since 1912, as the Jlrc-n1iPr say'"' \Yhat is 1\Ton~ with askinp; ~.he v. hole~ of tl{~~ i1coplc to pay tor the bu1lthng- and n1nintc'H<·nu? of ho,ipitals" \Yhy sboLild the lanclownPrs find 40 ceat. of thP Jnonf:v nccc:--sary io care for h.- :thh o£ th:' JH~OlJfe? I an1 ·surprised t1~at the Gon~nuncnt's, having gone EO far, d:d not go the whole way ancl proYide the ft:n(1s ncce::•:ary for the bui]J.in!( ancl n1ain­totwEce of lFlspitals from '·consoliclaterl req:nue. That \YOt.dd have be0n a lllU<'h rnoro eqCJit:dJle way than the method propo"ed by the Bill.

\Yhat does the Dill really mean? It means control by the Government. There is to be a Go.-~r:rment board. subject to dictation by the MmJster. The Mini<tcr will appoint the' major:t,· of the "'embers of the board lie will. appoint tho chairman, who will h.ave a ca~tlng Yote. Dnt a!',p-r~'nl1.\· the ~\lini::-ter has not rnuch conficlen('~~ in haYiuo· n uwjoritv of thv rncm Lers o:n t h r~ bon rd. n bl'c 1uSo he still ta kc;:o, po1.vrr to hin1 ·elf to undo '1 ny­thiug the bo.trd may do.

A stud"' of the Bill convillccs me thot it is a rernicious one. The' :0-'finistcr f.:.tated i l1:1t because, the Goveriimf'nt found 60 per cent., <Js agn1n~t 48 1wr C't'nt. fonn(l bv the 1 are­pa,,·ers, the Govc'rnment shonld ha ;.o a major­'t.V on the board. I eav that is not right. 'I he S[ltllC [lc'oplc who fiN! the 40 per ceut. alwfind a pcrcentai[e of the 60 per ce,Jt. If rrn 1nqutry was nutdc, I atn SUTC' it w·Juld reveal that at least 15 rwr cent. of tlw £:'8!1•."'" l r 'YC'nuo oLt.11red by the GoYC>rnrncnt i:; J.l~'id Ly the 1an.lo"-ncr;,, therefore thev arc na vinrr at least 55 cper cent. or· J1rohabl,v 60 · pe~· cent. of the total cost of the hoepitals. I

ll11·. Plunkett.]

1804 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

have heard it stated in this House bv. I think. the Premier. that it was not 1:ight that there should be taxation without repre.<onta­tion. The effect of this Dill is au instance of taxation without representation. bcf'aU:'C

the locrLl authority rcpresentatiou is a. n1inority one. It n1u:-;.t al wa:fs be so. The only reason for its being there is that 1 Le locd authority may be a. debt collector for the board. The local authorities ha YC powc1· to coiled from the ratepayers in th" .<J<'a, and thus are giYcn representation on Uv: board. but it is limited wprcscntation. ·ender this Dill they arc compollecl to eo!lC'ct lhc 40 per cent. from the people they rqli'csent. That is quite \\Tong ancl is an in~tanC·' of taxation 1vithout representation. \\'ithi11 lfH' rpast few \Yccks we havf' had before f hl·: liousc the Yery large Local OoYcnlnlcnt Bi11 -a o·ood Biil to my -vvav of thiuking-an•1 the ~Iinister gavp ·a:;< };1~ l'C'a"on~ for 1t.:: introdw:tlon the d('-,irn bilit!- of g-iYiJlg n1orc power to local authorities. It did that. Yes­terday we had before us another Dill. the rett,Oll for it~ introduction b~-i11~ tl~P ~!iYin:.r pf rncre po'>n'r to lo '.11 authorir_(,.~. Hnl Bill bdorc the House at the rn·:,eJn ; tr~ kcs all pow('r fl'orn the locr: 1 autlv_l,·~t;~·-.:. C'Xf'('llt. that of bein[.( cle1lt co1ledor~ fc•r Lo~­pita1s board<;:. L(\"td anthorjtins a''C c:-·rl<.l·inl gi,-en rPprf·-~ntatim.l, bnt it can !J' 1nlnorit.y repr -0nta.t1on and can have no effect real!~, on the bu.Hd.

If the Go,-crnment \VCrc !v:yr,~st iil tht'1r l10licf that it is right that tbc- people on thP larrd should be saddled -,rith the respm"i, bilitY of looking after tlic hra.lth of \.he protilc and the c"rc of the sick. why do tlw.'' llOt: permit local authoriti~ :o; vYlwn luak1n'~ a lcYy on the pt'onle to ~how the lc-Y:'\' <'LS n ho:-pita1s ta.x? Arc the GoYC'l'nnrcnt a::-,hmuccl of th~ polic.v they are adopting' \Y!n- lJOnlcl the people not kno\v th0 reason for t h·· tion the:: pay? The people sho'llrl lw t-he OP!!Ortunit:v of knovvlng ,,·hC'th•r }IOspital is being run pfficif~ntl~-. n,nd w!t('thec· thev or0 l'C'CPiYin~r a fair return fot· tllr-' arnOu11t taken fron~- th(•rn. ThP IJOtiee in con-1lc•ctio;l ·with lighting rates. or '>Yatcr or an\~ other rate sho·w the ~on~ for lPv.'-, ·and. therefore. v:lp,- not authorities be pc_·rniti-C'd to sho-.,·: tlw.t 1 f't>l'­

ta in lc·y:~ is for tbe npkcep of ho :pitals? Thi.~ nrohiLition is Tlw Go·-eritrnc:n~ llll!~L 'he a:-:ha..rncd of po1i(·y.

The majority of the membe1 s of a hu pitals board can be elected b.'- the J\Iinis!t r. They are controlled by the l\1inistPr and almost everything that the board may do is subject to his approval, even to the appoint, rnf'llt of a n1C'dical officer. Before ~uch a.n appoiutn1cnt can bo n1adc a rcconnnendation has to be nwcle b" the :\Iinistcr. Th .t incli­< ~Lies to rnc that tlw }'flnistpr dcf-ires to the final in >Yho sh:dl he the officer Jn hospital~. If tll<' \YCl'C', "appruYe<l b~~ the ::\lini~tf'r.'' would he all right. but the Bill clcfinitch ~a\-., "on the rC-'con-lrnendation of th0 ~Iinis-1<'; .. ·' \Vhv shonl,! l11c ::\Iinist< I' ha,·c ilw power to r('cmnrnC'nd a 1ncclical officer? \ board has been const.il!Itccl to take all tl1e rcE=,!JOns1bil1tics of carrYing- ont the function~ of that board. r-rhe Government h<tYC ,a majorit,\~ on the board. The ?vJiniste'r appoints most of the member-. including· thP chairman. \Yh ,,. then doe,. he take to himself the right to recommend a medical officer?

Mr. DuxSTAN: \Yhat is wrong with it?

[Mr. Plnnkett.

Mr. PL'CNKETT: \Vhat is rig!Jt with it? In addition to that, the Bill provides for protection against any lE'gal responsibility for all concerned. That may be all right, but it appears to be a funny thing to h:ne in the Bill. A resolution of the board­which I sav is the G-oyernment's or JYiini~ter's board-can" bo rescinded b"V the Governor in Council. I do not know \vhy that power is necesearv. It seems that the .Minister has not much faith in the board. ~"-!though there mav be men on the board with different idc;1s aud points of viPvv, gencrall~,- spC'9,king a boclv of rnen cornposing a. bor~rd u~ually rnake ~L fairly sound decision.

The PRE~l!ER: That TJOwcr has been 111 the Local Authorities Act for year~, but 1t j,. vt~ry seldmn C'xerci;;ed.

:\lr. PLU~KETT: Well. do not think then i:5 an_y need for it.

The PRDJIER: Thne should not be, and it is only u -ed jn (·xtreme cases.

}lr. PLiT'\KETT: I f(•c·l we arc loadin":' np t!tL' Illan on the land to_ ntch au extent Lhat it is inlno_,;;,:-iblc for hua to e:-:rr:v on. Thl' CoYcrnn:l('nt arc levying precepts 011

our daiL·v faratcr.~. UlH_l 110\',- tlw ho~pitab board th:·ouS~:h the local antborit.v 1,:i going to leYy prce:\:~pts fnr tht' hca.ltL of _otn· llCoplc. l!ui' local authoritieB urc rc<pone>blf' for th·­ccntL·tcric~ nl~o. v.·bich rnay be quite justified, and no,, YYC ha Ye tu care for the sick. The ho~nitals tJoard 'vill tako rnone:; frorn peo~1L.: \rho nrn in difficnlti~,~ to-?a:v~and I

etnphaticall:, that the l'n'l!ll.f'l" ha:-; not realii'C'cl the unhappy posltJOn of th~

pnu1ar~- prodnccrB of th!. conJlt_r.''· I '' ~s \-er\· plca,-.:.ed io read a llttlc v,·lnle ago }ns remarks that some effort should be made to ol'ttle lJCopb on the bnd. \Yith the existing la~rttion on thf' 1na11 on the 1ancl, coupled \\ irh tLc ho"pitnl~ pn'CL'pL and bearing in tnirHl tlwt the value of la.nd ha." del~l'L'Ciaied. thc·rl' i liitl(· lwpc of ftcttiLg rnnny people lo s ·ttle on the lane\.

'The PHE::'IfTER: Thjs Bil1 del ... 110t 1nake

auy iHct·eascd charge.

~,Ir. PLLT::\KETT: Clf cour.s<• it does. \Ye \.Cl 1l(1t know YYll:--tt the e:hargt• '.Yill b0 if i·oards o·lart to build I ilaYc• 110 objection to ir 40 rt'nt.. of thf' contrilmtions ''r1ll bave to Jnac1c by landholder~: ]n t~lC' area con-

The Govrornntcnt arc taking }lower to as~nn1c control of Yoluntary hospita l.s at an.v tjll1C'. That rnay be all ri6·ht. Thev ,,-i]j tak" OYCt' the building' thrrt have been c•rcctp,j bv the people in those apas, but thcv haYC no chanc(~ of taking over the r'itH~r:ciul r; ·rwrr,ibility. Fron1- tho wcty ho:-pital::; are -run they ('::tnnot have any OH'rdraft) when tho (;O\'('TilYl1Cilt take nrrL· the;: Q"l't any credit Uala11ce that

f':.;:i~t. ·-~ can· n:;;.5ume control over-if they likP.

Othn >f>C"1kers han' rcfnrecl to the vot­ing ·trPngth of councils. and I refer to it from the point of Yimv of the precept. which 1'. ill ]y, lc,·icd according to the Yaluation of the property. Some local authoriti~s ha ... -c diYision.s, a,ncl to give thPrn representa­tion ha re lmilt up fairl)- large councils. 1 n .c;:onlc ca~es there are thirteen members, aud in oth0r .. seven. \'erv often the council th<lt ha.s '-Cven or nine rc-Prc;:;cntativC'"s has a. H'rv high Yaluation compared with one with rhirtecn. If the precept for the upkeep of

Hospitals Bilt. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1805

lhe hospital board is going to be levied on tho unimproved land valuation, the people with a higher valuation will have to IJay n1o.-:t rnoncy, but because they have fewer nnmbers they have less voting .strength. I snggc.-t to the Minister that he take lhat as a basis for ·election. There mav not be rnu('h jn it, but it rnight a11pe~sc sorne connGih that arc concerned because a Hnaller council ha..s greater voting strength at elec· t'on time than they havo.

Another objectionable feature in the Bill is that the Governor in Council fills znv vacancy that may occur on a board. I an; not suggesting that the Governor in Council \vottld not select another member <Jf the body whose representative ceased to be a member of the board, but it would be Letter if the body that had the resiJonsibility of making th_e Plection in the first !lla,,e, even 1f It was m the minoritv, had the opportu­nity of filling any vacan~y.

I should like b see 0xcisecl from the Bill that clause dealing "·ith the personal resrJOn­sibility of member,. I have no feeling about that matter en·cpt that when wo get to tho ~t.ag that such a cluuso has to be inserted in a Bill by thi>< Parliament the govcrnml'IJt of the country is getting into a bad state. There is no occa:".ion io intin1idate an~~ rnom~ her of a local anthority by saying th,1t if he dous not v-ot for or 'upport the payment of a precept he will be personally liable and wilt be put out of office \Vitbout an\ opportunit.v of rcappoinhnent f r fly.c years. That is a pn.ltry. 1ncan, ro\vardl.'l~ nwt.hod of trying to deal ·with sornconc \Yho has gone again~t your wi~hos.. _\ Go\·ernnlL'nt should be aboYe that kind of thing altogether·. Thev have the pc wr r all the time to g·et "\vha.tcYer n1on-cy they \vant, irn~~pcctivc of \Yha,t any rnem:JcT of the council n1a:v say. P~_m:le reading such a clause v.-ou1d ask, "V(hat eort of people h;rn' \Ye got in Queens­land when thc0• do that?"

The SECRETARY FOR liK\LTH AKD

.:-:\FFAIHS: \VB have OllC or t\VO of pcoplt•, 1vithout question.

HmiE thoso

:.Tr. PLUNICETT: The hon. gentkn1an shonlcl not let one or two people in the State dictate, so you must intimidate them to kc"p them quiet.

The SECRETARY FOR liEALTII AXD HoME AF.fA!l:s: Vie are not g-oing to. That is why the clause is in the Bill.

Mr. PLUNKETT: The hon. g·entleman ought to take it out. It is not necessary, and it does not read well.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS : Do you SUJ1110rt the Crimes Act?

ll.1r. PLU~KETT: I do not know any­thing a bout crime. I say that this Bill would be better if that clause were out of it. After a year or two the ll.linistcr will oo tl'hamcd t0 think tho.t an::· one council--

The SECHETARY FOR HEALTH AXD Hol\IE AFFA!RS : I will show you w hethcr I am ashamed of it or not.

Mr. PLU"'KETT: The Government have power to get all they want under this Bill, and when it becomes hw the Minister will find that no one will murmur against any decision that is made. They will pay up if they po;.sihly c:tn. TherE' is no need for the cl a use, and it looks bad; I suggest that it be tak<m out.

I am opposed to this Bill because the incidence of taxati·on under it is -wrong. While I admire the Minister's encloav-om·s to pro,~ide good hospitals and nurses and to do the hest that call be done for our sick [100ple, I say that thf~ whole of 'the people of Queensland should pay for it. It is an obligation upon all of us, not upon any section. There is no occasion for 1110 to emphasise the fact that while the landowners arc responsible for the upkeep of a hospital the business men in th<J towns are not called upon to pay anything, and often they do not. In Bcauclesert the managers of the qanks and the men in other high positions need not pay ono penny towards the sup­port of hospitals. \Ye hav-e, of course, some \'E'l'y line people there who recognise that while they arc living in the town they arc in clul v bound to contribute towards the mainteJ'l.•.nce of the hcspital, Lut lhcy can­not be compcJl.ed to do so. There are rnany people in big pJsitions who can afford to contribute, and \Yould willingly do so other­wise. but the Yen moment this Bill comes into operation they 1vill lose interest. They will not then feel that there is auy rcspon­sibilih on them in this comwc;tiOl:. I am cn1ph~si~ing t.h.a.t point tCJ show that the inciJcnce of hospibd taxati011 i~ "Wl'Oilg. rl'oo rrn~ch pov.rer is being giYcn to tho Govcrn­mcut in the Bill. They should have gone a step fLuther by piaeing the whole of the re8ponsibilit:;· of rna intaining- the ho.~pit, Is of the State en all the people.

Mr. EDWARDS (X!'Ranr;o) [7.46 [J.m.]: do not think that an~vone can ha\·e 1n..ny doubt that the 2\linister is imbued \Yith the bc'-t intention~ in the IYorlcl:-- in intrDducing thi;; Bill in the interests of tlw sick and suffering of the con1111unity. Furthcrn10l'O, I am sa.fc in saying th.'t not one hon. 111l'nl­bcr or the public .. ould deny thL·rn a helping­llRJld. lmmccliateh· a neighbour boco:ues ill in the couniry-I -dare sa,y the sa1ne thing happc11s in the citie'3 .and tov,·n:"-01LTO is no need to a"'k a nro~g:hlJOur to giYc n 1 '~ista11Ce. It is immccliateh· v-olunteered. I believ-e that tl1J.t is gcn€ra1 tlnoughout the. cOJn­Inunity. r:rhere is 110 need to edncat" the [Wople up to t,heir dnty in thi> rcspcc L T can recall that the san1c sdf-sacrificing effort-; were nwdo in the old pioneering days, ·whon people \\ ould drive up to 50 miles in a night to give help to a neighbour in dis­tro' s. I saw by the papers that the san,o thing happo1wcl recoutly in the ~ orthcrn Territory, 1vhen a person vd1o ·wa.s soriousl:;7 ill was brought carefully clown by neighbours OYer flcockd riYers and creeks, travelling all night, to get medical treatment. It all goes to show that the people ran be relied upo:1 to l>clp tiw sick and suffering 1ncn1bors of tltr cmn­mu•uty. That is the pojnt I arn t.l"l/ing 1 o make, lLncl it is v-ery rcs;rett:1blc indeed that we have reached such a stage in the political lnstory of tho State thctt the poopie arc bemg cliviclecl on this q ucstion; th<H the· l\{inistBr-in his wisdon1, I suppose-has decided to appoint certain members to a board to do whctt he belions to be in the best interests of the sick.

'l'ho Minister has cleciclecl to ·make political ap11oimmonts to hospitals boards-that the members must be under his control and that they must exercise a controlling power on the boards. I think that the Minister must admit that it is a farce to appoint five members on a board to do exactly what the

Mr. Edwarcls.]

1806 Hospitals Bill. [ASSE2'11BLY.] Hospitals Bill.

Gm·c1·nmrnt want them to do, and then, if the:· do not do It, the l\linister may inter· vene. \Yhat IS the 'a'ue of the other four repro>ontativcs appointed by the local authoriti0·? vYhat possible hope have they got of doing anything? rl~hero arc xeally si_·{ to four in favour of the Govern-ment, thl chn irman is appointed by the 2\Iinistcr, and ho has a ca-;ting vote as ~·;ell as a dclilwrat.ivo vote. The,·cfore, we are dividing the pooplo in connection with a sorYicc that eYervbodv iu the State irrc­sp:ctiYc of po.litics~- u:ti,ionulity, and 'cvcr.v­thmg else, believes should be carried out in thr iJ,)st 1nterc"ts of the people \vho require it. \Ye~ haYe ('arricd part;,' politic" to such a fa.r-reaching ·oxt0nt in this State that the Governn1cnt, through the l\ilinister, hav0 decided ll]lOn a poli0v that is ontire]y '''rang. A far better plan at this point of our his. tory wonld bo for the Govern1nent to take the hold >trp of nationalising all hospitals nnd flndtng the necc",c.:arY finance fr:Jrn con­:3olidatr et ~·r-,~eiH1P. Tha·t ·would be a fa.r l1lO!'P l:onc.st n1cthod than t.ho pro-cent pro~ p0c'1J.

l'dr. DeGG G: Do vou believe in increa>.ccl taxation for nation;lising hospitals?

Mr. E D\Y ARDS: Just exactly what does that rnecn? the hrm. member believe ti1at one• of Uw people :-:.bould bL' taxed h-.;ice for the up keel) of our hospitals'? I IYant hon. nwrnbers to think quietly over tlmt a.•)Ject of the matter. The statements of previous spt·akcrs on this point are C]_lttte correct. In the first place, the ratepayers arc asked to t!nd LW per cent. of the~ urJkcLp of hospitals, and thc11. a~ part o[ tl10 groat body of taxpayer:;, arc asked to CiJJd the l'l'Hlainlng 60 per et'llt. t11rough r'On~~olidatod rc,·cnnc. That is not just. lt i~ ab.:-;olutel:;· unjust. \Vhile the Government ur: doing in some re'P'''·ts n.ll they po.,sibly can to turn the <ettention of the people frnm tho lar,·e c '1Jtrc of popula.tion to a rural lifP, tln=-y aro bringing forY.ard l0gislabo11 of thi~ de~cription which \vill cornplctt:ly nul~]fy their efforts. That c.~mwt be cil 'lie:!, as the people on the land cannot 1neec th,~ obiig·a.­·tion.-; plncecl Ul)Oli thon1. That e\-idence c<1.ll

be sccurPd fron1 anv fll1ancial institution. Tho Agricultural Bar1k can toll us of the difficulties that arc being ext;erieucod by rna.ny of its cli£·nts. NohvitlJstanding that, the,y arc no\v asked h:: v .. :.<1y of prc·cept through the local authorities to find a greater proportion of the revenue required by hos!litals than is their just share. At the san1o time, n1any citizens in receipt of ·high salaries aro escaping their liability :in this direction. 1 do not believe there is on~~ wcll-tncaning citizen \vho honestly desires to shirk his personal obligations in the upkeep of our hospital,. and tbe pro. vision for the sick and needv. It is fair tlmt every citizen should" pull his wejght. Bcca.w3e a citizen selects a lifl~ on the land in preference to ono in a city or town and where he would rent or own his own homo, ho is compelled to carry a greater burden than the city or town dweller. That is unfair, and is far removed from the democratic principles which thu Labour Party enunciate.

This subject 1s a.n importa.at anrl far­reaching one. If tho Go vu JCn "'!lt pursue their intentions of imposing the~e condil;ons on those people who are developin~ our country they will bring about such et" sblo .of affairs eventually that they wdl be com-

[llir. Edwards.

pellcd to come to the <eid of the f>cople in the conutrY, either hv nwar1s of ~uh-.,idifl . ..; or. aA tL<.; ticrTPtary V for Agricultul'l' and Stock is doing- to-day, in hnlping to buy forlder for staning stock. Where will that policy lead us'! Finally it must break down the independence of tho citizen, the very thing we should gu<erd against. Ti1is is a very important matter affecting Lhe welfare of the State. It is our dutv as rern·c·souta.tlv(~s of the lkOple to find a fftirer and more equitable basis for the ]H'ovisiou of funds for hospitals than is proposed in the Bill.

In regard to the appointment of a chair· man of a hospitals board, surely the Govern­ment do not hold that it is just to appoint a chairman to rule over other people! It ::;;cen1~ to n1c tn be an entirely wrong action and one that will load to no end of difficulty. I can call to mind instances where the GovPrnn1ent\s representatives have not been satisfied with the chairman that was appointed. after they had time to find out the t,ypo vf rnan he \Vas. and the g-cntl-en1an ha··.' thus caused no end of trouble. The appointment of a chairman in this manner is not in the best interests of the smooth "·01·king of the hoepitals. I think the 1\Iiui,te•· ''"ill admit the conduct of a hospital is a business matter, and it should be con· ducted on business lines; but if members of the board are to be chosen by the Minister, irrcspcctiv0 of whether they have any busi· 11 , ability. that will be impossible o£ achic\·enwl t. In wme casm the whole of the representatives appointed by the Minister did uot have any business experience what· soever.

UndPI' this Bill the local authority ia forced to meet a precept, but it is not allowed to show what the amount of precept is. That Sl'C'Ll~ to !ne to be a cowardly \Vay of dojng the i hing. After all, we should not be afrcti ,] tn sho,Y exactly what the people are paying for the upkeep of hospitals; bnt the Government seem to de<,ire to hide tho amount of the precept in the general rate. alld the local authority 'vill have to hatod on>r the amount clesi;·ed by the hospitals board.

1 commend the :Minister for the kecm i;,ter· est and enthusiasm he has displayed in che welfare of the sick in the State; but I am ahai.d that his zeal in carrying out the policy laid down by the Government may ""ult in such additional imposts of taxation that the whole system may break clown. It must be admitted that the erection of large and expcnsiYc ho<;;.pitals-and I an1 not against thi,, poLcy pro,·iclPd the people can afford to pay for t11ern~-rnay bring about such a state of nfiairs that the people in many cent 1 es in the Statf~ n1ay tlnd thmnselves unable to meet tbeir commitments and then look to the Minister for help. Imnwdiatcly tbat po:-;itiou ari.-;e'··, it judicatea that the people are in difficulties. Hon. members a~·t~ awarP that the country is in grave chfiicult:v nt. the present tirne. There is a tremendous decline in the production of butter and otiHer primary products. The settlers arc having to buy foddPr and are losing their herds. It will take them voars to re--eetablish themselves. Th<et is the. con· clition of affairs in the South·Eastern portion of the State and in the area with which vou, Mr. Speaker, are so well acquainted feed is avail~b!e, but the settlers cannot btu stock. Ivionev has to bo obtained somewhere to a·.sist thcr;, to restock and make a living

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1807

on the land. \Vhile this grave co~><lition of affairs is existent in the State to-dav the Go\·crnrncnt arc sponsoring legislation Creat­ing additional taxation, and those who will bear this burden have no representation on the bo"rd" that will spend the mon<"> thus raised. The appointers to hospital< boards made by the Government have fllll power to spend a.s 1nueh rnorwy as tht~y dt'sirr in the erection of hospitale, the acquisition of land. the takin~t over of lmilclinge. and th<· doing of anytning they like, whereas the people \vho find the money have no control and no representation. It must be admitted that this legislation is unjust and unfair, and the sooner the Government rea];.,, it and altPr their policy so that every person in the community shall bear his fair share--

:Jfr .• JESSON: They ·do.

1\lr. ED\VARDS: The hon. nnmbe:· ha2 ll<'V<'r borne his share. And in the upkeep of hospiLds and other service for the sick a fair share• is "·hat a man can afford. No rPa:-onably fair-minded person desires to shirk his responsibilities in that regard, and the GoYemment should give a lead in the cncouragcment of that freedom and incle­Jwndencc that are so desirable in a matter affecting w closely the welfare of our people.

A few words are nccescarv relative to the clau.~ Lrou~ht fol''Yarc1 to n1r;ct a ~pccia] c St'.

It i' m·o•:iclccl that a mcmbt'r of a local anthorit~, who 1prote~ts ,lgain:-:t the collc{'ticn of a precept """1 be di"Juelinc•d for a pc·riod of fi\·c vcar·"' and jn addition can be~ !JrO~D­f'Uted. \Yherc arc the days whcn the Lc,bour Partv boosted of free speech. and UH•d to stand up in the Domain defying the law nnd th< Go,·ernrnent without being prosecuted?

}h. KEOGH: Arc you 'urc• thO'l' clavs ha Ye gone?

}Ir. ED\YARD:'\: Ju .. t bccansc• onr• coun­cillor to0k pxr'cption to :::on10thing:. and ~aid it "''" Ull just that they should pay the pr0Cf'')t. th0 GoYennncnt now hring in spec·ial lcgi laiion to deal with him. Sure!: .. ., e ""' bilT enough not. to fall so lo· ..... ~ Thcre is plcnt: of law to de 1l with th0 situation \Yit11ont Dlaking p0cial proYis.ion fllr a ~llf'('ial f 1~ ns t]n• Tviinist0r hn" done in thi~ Bill. The• Government >hould be pleased to 1.cccpt tlw critiei:::n1~ anrl sug-g-estion~ of snch men. That is ,,·hat builds up. a f:0YCrn·

nwnt. a.nd i~ the o:nlv wav in vd1ich 1\linist.Pl'S sitting on the front be~chcs of this House are able to become statc>men-by being bold enough 11nd strong enough to stand up to the criticism that is lcYelled at them from time to time. Evidently this Government have got to tlH-~ stailc where they rnust rcprcs;;; CYCry­

t hing bv l<'gisla ticn that doc·s not >nit them. It is only takin_;z up th0 tirnc of tlw 1-Iou<;:e, and it i~ cntirel~- \\Tcng.

~Ir. I{Eocn: \Yhat are ~~ou doing-?

:\Ir. ED\Y .. \RDS: ~nu. \rhich I think

);fl·. SPEAI{ER-:

I fl_ffi trYinrr is irupo~Sibl~. Order!

to educate

"i\fl·. ED\VA RDS: I tl;ink the Government shonlrl rec:onsidcr this Bill ar,c1 tho whole positicn. and dC\·ise some means that will be in thP interests of t!w whole of tho people IYiihont n;:_:king ono sccHon to bear a much hif:!'U"Cr lmrdC'I~- than another S£~ction. If the nl:;ljgations Wf're cYcnh distributed tho Seci:ctary for Agricu1tur0 and Stock \Vould hrrv1• a much easier job in developing the country areas. VV G should giYe greater

encouragement to the people instead of dis .. couraging thorn at eYcry turn. \vit!"r legislation such a~ we are- now consrder1ng. As a ParllarnPnt we should go out of our 1.vay to Clll'Olll'agc ]H.'Ople in the {'Ountry and do eYcrything we can to keep them on. the land bv rcmoYing (he burden of taxatiOn from their shoulders. Only by doing that can we help them in any practical fashion.

"'\Tr. BRAND (lsis) [8.9 p.m].: Duri~g the ]a,t thirteen vcars this House has considered Hospitals Acts and amendments thereto. Tlw :Minister in charge of th1s Bill has .. bmught down a m<•astuc to repeal the previous Acts, but it conhtins all the bad provisiollS of the old Acts. as well as new clausc2 that are equally bad. Hou. members of the Country Party and other hon. mem .. hors on this side of tho Hou·r• can !H'H'r support it any more than tl;cy supported the plT\Olls Acts. The prons!Ons of this Bill are clir<>ct<'d against the prtmary prco .. Jucers o~ Qw:~ensland. \rhorn we shall ahYay~ ")Li.pport. anJ the Thiinister is telling them in this Bill that they are not fit to take chal'cre of the in·"titutions in theu own ('CIJt~c::;. V\T e IJlUst protest against a Bill of tha.t nature. I an1 surprised that a Lab~)ur Part\~, \vho;;r- Illernber;:;; profess to be sc.'clnng to do something for the producers of l;;m'ClL-lancl. should bring into this House a Bill tl at tells them, in cff1•ct, that The .. '· arc not fir to run the institutions of their dl:;,trict. That is a far as thC' Labonr Party c., n go in a~:~isting the men in the {'Ountry dif'tri'-ct~. \\·here t}w " chstricting ., of ho~pitals is in force !

It is trnc that thpro \,a~ a brca.k do:n1 .in the yo]nntar~· :::;y;-;tcrn l)cfore tht' dr:.,tnct "\·.;;_t<'Hl w,t· b~·ong.ht into being, and no:v. t!l~' l\iinl:3tcr is glving evidence that thr d1 tl:_!· t ~v~rcn1 i.·: abont io break down, too. J:Ie j~ vcrv much afraid that it \rill break do\rn completely, and is doing by this Bill 'vhat no otlll'r _ .. :\el :n (~l!Cl'n~land ha~-, yet <\?~Jt~-­

ro pla-ce a lJt•r,on:.t.l .re·r·Jn-,ltJil_~t.Y people \Ylw <J.L"t~ taki~lV _<'>:ccur1Ye

ou tl1e in.;;titut·ion"- in dH 11' l'C··P ·c­ri' c an•tt'-'. I think that HllOll fuller cun­·"idt·ration the ::\Iinister \YOtdd be '' i:::c . to ,,-!rhdra.~ · such a 1;Hjnci1.>lt: frm;l the Bt.ll. wlH1lC'\'Cl" ruay LP t tiC OlJ111lOl1 01 ~onu• nt·_'ll

in that The c_:rt:atimt of a p('r'·onal l'( ,,pon the payrnpnt of a lw.;;_piud tax >rill ],, the Jll"CclLH ·r to look k1ndl:-· nlwn the ~\'-·t. .~-Tli1~ BilL like ih• _\et·~ rL<1 t it rcpea.l~. irnpo . .;:c_, a tax.·~tloil upon the• 1 wopll' on the land to 1naintain thei1· ho:--:.pita1.;;:;. The La.hour Party n1u \~ ;..aY that i;; an c(}uita.bl(' '~tt'~ll o( . The part>. on this sidt' of the Hou-e say it i-; not.

~\lr. lllLTO::.\: T1H'Y did a.t on:-.: tirnr.:.

1\Ir. RRX:\D: \Ye hanJ ,aid 'h it i:-; j1wquitable, a nU v, c

on the lnnrl arc

all alorw to-nlo·ht

~-~b-i11 er en ~ing l'('~]JUn~ilr: J i~

c_laT·" {roJ~P b\· t1wv l'i"Pl't~ a~kcd ·'.to t"ltakc c]~are:-c 'of roadrnaking

and the health o~f the romHnmitv. ih~'ll ,2,Tratcr n -.pon~ib:Lt-:c h~~Y(~ b:;o11

011 t hPlJl. and l mn won cl( rntg lH>'.Y

the \vill bear the bnrdcn. If the Jn(lll

on lanr1 doe-s kick ag?in."t it llC? (;o,~c_rn-nt~:nt -.,·,ill b= to <;:tanrl a~aln:-it n<ln. [ warn ll11·, r tLat he .sho1_llJ not uttt>nqJt to place' prrsonal rcspml-;}b~l:ty on people -,yJJo are earr:t· ing out tho ;~:1~JJPS of tho' c thc·y rep re ent. After all, wny do we

l!f1'. Brand.]

1808 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

call our~dYcs a great dernocn ~,·y if y, c do not gi-re rL'presPnt~1ti-..-e-, the right to -roic'-' t !le opinions of the pcoplP thc•y repre..:,cnt in the ,phcro of actiYiiv in which they arP interested? Those people who refused to pay 1 he ho:-.vitals precept were carryjng into f'ffect the dictates of those represented '\vho on an adnlt suffrage bad -ro1-Ld tha;r they .'hould not pay After tlH'Y a.greed to hr 11J the JUini:o.tt•r paying the precept, the: elector:-:, undL'r tile 2arne franchist', ca:~t a YotP llO-confidene>~ in the conucllors. luc: ha~ other rncnns of Rccuri11g thL· pn•ccpt--Lctter IncaiL'i than tho c sng­gc"'tl'J in the clau~e l 1HlYC ~n rn1nd. I C'A.,ll

oul~; ::clY that jt i.-, an indic;dion on th,• parvt o( tlH• }liHi~tor that the f:~-~tCln th:1t i:a.:-; }:CPH fo::.tcred lJv the LabOur Partv itas Lct'll Lrcaking clo~~-n, and he n1ust no\~7 rcs•Jrt lo pPrwnal threats to keep the '' dis­trictiug " fY~tern in operation.

At S.Hi p.m., The CHAIRMAN OF CmgnTTEES (1!fr_ Hanson,

l!uranda) relieved Jl.lr. Speaker in the chair.

Mr. BRAND : I agree with other hon. members that \Ye should provide the Lest hospitals system for the sick and injuretl members of the communitv, and I also believe \vith them that the Minister is trying to do his best to give the finest son-ice in that respect, but I hope that he is not going to spoil the Bill by including clauses that vnll have the affect of not making it what eYery decent person desirr·s. It should con~ain _no personal threats against rr1embcrs of t1o::;prtals boards vd1o are trying to carry out their duties in the Le-t interests of their n-)wctive districts anrl of the hospitals sy:;tcnl.

I am opposed to the Minister's taking power to appoint the chairmen of tlle boards. It is true that in certain cases GoYernnlCnt rcpreecntatives have failed to elect a chair­rnan from arnongst their number, and i.Jhat on two or three occasions the l11iuister has ht!d to intcr\·ene and appoint hjn1. But it is carrvino- the n1att::r too far to say that ihc ::VIinister shall in all cases appoint tho chulnuau frmn the Go\·eruJnCJlt rcprl'SPllta~ tiyes. In every con1munity there is generally· someone-it matters not what his political opinions may be-who is especially fitted eo occupy an executiv-e position. In 1ny O\VIl

electorate there is one man-a Labour rnan-who is regarded as having special qualifications fitting him to serve as a chair­man of a hospitals board, and he can always rely on the support of his political opfHJHf'nts fer that position. They recognise that his sp:oci::tl knowledge of hospital 1na rtcrs fit him to hold that position, and i11 other distri{~ts persons of different political opinions can, for similar rea,,ons. rely on the support of their political opponents for th, t position. I believe that the best possible man should be selected for the position of chairman, irrespective of his political Yiews. How can we build up th' Lost ho~pihtl system if we do not rccognisD that local authority rcprescnta­tiYe-s, by virtue of th(~ir experience in execu­tive work, are more likely to be better chair­men of hospitals boards than other members of the community? Men who are specially qualified for thesP positions should be allowed to occupy them. The local authori­tieo arc called upon to find 40 per cent. of the deficiency in hospital expenditure, and it is v;rong to say that they should not have .the right to exercise some control from t!.c

[MT. Brand.

exDcutive position of chairman. Such a principle is wrong, and we cannot support it in any way. I can quite imagine what. a rrv \YOuld go up if hon. rrwn1bers were sit­ting in opposition, and we sought as a Government to introduce a Bill like this.

'The SECRETARY FOR I-:IEALTH AND HoME AFFAIRS : Your Government fired all the Labour nominees from all the hospitals boards in Queensland.

Mr. BRAND : And the hon. gentleman fired all the anti-Socialist representatives from the boards.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Ho:uE AFFAillS: I followed the example of your GOYBfllll18llt.

::>..Jr. BRAND: Whatever the Government tlitl on that occasion I tlitl not support it. I did not believe in it. I do not believe chat politics should be carried into hospitals con­trol.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH iND IIo;uE AFF.IIRS: lt is all right saying that now.

ilh. BHA:\D: The hon. gentleman is foi!owin-, the practice of the preceding (_:ioycnml-ent, and in doiug _:::;o a.cknow!Pdge.5 it lo be a good practice>. I tlo not believe in it.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH Al>iD HOME AFBIRS: Of course you did.

l\lr. BRAC\D: Evidently the Minister adrnlts it is a good 11olicy, because he followed it. If that is not so, then he nnHt havo changed the Government rcpre­~entativc.s in a viudictive spirit, but it is d1fficn1t to assuniC that a J.Vlinistcr of the Crown would act in that way. De that a> it n1av, we a.ll LL'lievc, that whatcyer n1ay !Jc th~ political Yiews of an:; member of a local a.uthoritY or Govcrnn1cnt reprc~entatlve, tlwv ~hould r~nakc uo- difference whatever in tlw· administration of our ho .• pitals. Dis­trict-;, lllOl'l~ in countl'Y nrr·as than in a c~·ntre like l3ri~bane, have frorn tl111e to tirl1l\

protC'·tccl through the producer-;'. org~r~isa~ tions a~rainst this rr1ethod of taxatlou. 'I hoy }Ja.\ e U~rough their local producers' associa­tior::.~ and various other non-political organr-

that havo been created by legislation bv Labour Governrnent::; prote.steLl

aoainot tl]is svstcm that the l\Iinistcr is cf~arnpionillg tO-night. They haYe a right to make a protest, especially in matters in which they feel they have been inequit­ably treated.

T1H~ SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME .::\F. H=·;: :\o one has denied thcrn the Lgllt to prute.-t.

l\1;-. BRA:\]): They haYC that p"rfe.::t right to prate t. ln fact, the:': have rnadc their ,·oic'-' felt frmn one cnLl of Qu.·Pusland to another. I ltoticcd that tho p1·oduv:r0 ln the Boonah district. \Yhich the ~Jinistcr

itdutl 'd in the Ipswich Ro.pitals Dis-are al o cmnpla.ining. It i;; true that

thr: Jll'<;dtH'l·l' . ., in eV(.)ry area \Yhcre the di~­trict ~·y.:"ltC'In oprra1· , complained \then Jt. first bl'CaD1C orwratin~. The hon. D1l~n1ber fo1· Has ifcrn. who r:"\]Jre-cnts that cl1stri('t, ,;jJi Jind th~t. thP'"·C pi~oducer:" vvill go on con11)lai11 ing year in .and year out again~t th0 ineqtdc' of this taxatoon. That the s,\·:-.Lcm of ta,.xation i" inequitable is borne out bv the l\I!nistcr's r0fusal to allolv locrd nuthoritir.:; to ~tatc on the rate noti-ce iusc ltow 1nucb of the asse:;:.srncnt is rcpreserlted by the ho3pital tax. There is proof, if the>

Hospitals Bill. [26 NOVEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1809

:Mini,rL·r rc<1uires it, that he himself belieY'" the tax is inequitable. If it '.\ cro just .anfl Pf[uitablc he would not object to that taxa· .._ion'.s Lc-ing· 8Ct out in detail on the ratP a:-..o:-- nH·ut in order to a.llo\v cverv rate­panr to se> cxar:tlv what tho rate for that pal·ticula.r ~"-as. \\' c arc prot•·sti.ng to-nigLt princjplos laid dov .. 'n in rbi;:; Bi1 L \YC believe to be wrong, uuj u:<t. ~lnd inrrtuitaLle. to those pPOI1lo living in the counu·v di~trict>: and concPrn1nrr which dJI?,Y haYc !rmn-iiuw- to tinu __ protc.o;te:-!. to -th~, l\li11i:;;ter.

I bdiPV0 that uliirnatolv th~" GoYc•rninent, v:hctllcr like it or· not, \\·ill have to L k<' over nationalise tho whole hospital ·"Y:StPHl. ~lini.st"r 1::; giving a lend 1 o tfwt extent introducir;g this }3ill. Although tl1c pC'ople a \Yho1e arc• oppo .. ;;ecl to the 11aticmali of natlonali.-ation will be forced on the lwcansc of the 1n.'<:'nkclown of ihe d1stl'ict ·c.:t>~nl. 1.vhich he. hn::; Prwcted uudcr certain sh1tute.s anc1 is cndcaxonring to re-enact in this Bill.

Th,, SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO)JE AFFAJR': The Local Authorities Association ,.~1xriPd a l'C'':lolution in fu.vour of the lHttiona.ll"ation of ho"11ital~.

2\11-. llR.\:\'D: They are trying- to get. rid •of tlreir re.sponsibility as f[Uickly as they crr1>. \YhatcYer mav be the n''tdt of this Bill I believe tho da v is not far distant when the nalionalisatio-;, of hospitals wi!I ho 'brought about, because the people living on the land arc not able to meet the burdens that arP be-ing continually i·mpof'ed upon thrill. They httve only to refuse to pay­as one shire has nlrcadv-ancl the whole svstcm will break down. 'The provisions in the TI11! would not be of anv aYail to the ~Iin-i~tPr. because he would then haYc th rcmlution on his h'mck I beli~vc that the prin1ary producer is in ~uch a state of minrl that he is prepared for anything-. I-I, is 1 J,;;,.-,;!' 1.!.' th~·olH.;h o-:-lt' of th::' n1o::,t critical period:-; in tl1c hi:'tory of the country~and -anyone "·ho has not cxperioneed a droug-ht on t]1c land cannot fully appreciate his position--and is in ~uch a frame of n1ind he is road:· for am·thing. The primary pm· clurerf' arc looking- for n1ore syn1pathetic considerat~on, legislation, and arlministration from the GoYernmcnt-thing-s that thcv have well earned. I hope that when the Bill reaches the Committee stage the Minister will be more kindly disposed towards these penplo 1vho arc !iYing· in the countrv dis­trictc.:, and ''vho are earnin(J' tbe rr:.nl ,\,ealth of fhr countr.v. an cl i haf he v-. ill accept amendments that will han' the effect of rt!ducjng their burdens.

:',Tr. DAXIEL !Krz;wl) [8.27 p.m.]: I li:'tf'1~ec1 \Yith iutPrPst to 1nv colleagues' spePchcs on the 40 per cent. d the l10spitals fu>Ods that had to he fouml bv the lancl­·owncrs: and I do not want t~ allow thi-s Dnportunitv to pa~s \vithout adding my quota to the chjrrtions to the manner in which thif' money is being raised.

At 8.23 p.m .• Mr. SPEAKER resnmed the chair.

Mr. DA:\IEL: 1 went to the trouble to 'find out just how many farmers and pas­toralists thnrf' are who are paying taxes. A perusal of the report of the Co·umissioner of TaxPs reveals the fact that 15 per cent. Qf the taxpayers are paying the 40 per cent. of ltospital finance, the Government fmd·

ing the other 60 per cent. Fifteen per cent. of taxpayers earning incomes between £51 and £2.000 are 11aying this 40 per cent. If there is an:v appreciation of the principles of British juotice in this Parliament we shall S\\Cl'P aside that form of taxation for hospi­tals, and, a::; tny colleagues hav(' k,uggcsted, make it a charge on the taxpayers of the State. and thus makr it nu equitable tax.

Another objection I h11ve to the Bill rc•latC's to the 1nannc r of Govcrnn1ent control -actual centralisation of control of hospital aifairs. It is no uso the Minister's saying that ho will not control, because he will con­trol the boards by the appointment of Government nominees. It really means that the ::'vlinister will be the boss. and wb~.tuve1· he crot•s This means Hitlorism of th.:.

order.. I have no douht as to whom jc)Us a11cl around ho:;:pitn ls ,vill b~~ giyen to. kno\Y very 'vell that Lahonr dcYoices ,vill tece1ve tlw.se jobs. :<o otliCr per~ons ,\·ill rc-reivo thPm. ~o as':lurance that the :J.Iinister rnay gjve ·will disabuse n1y 111ind

that score. Labour dcyotccs will secure job.; aYailab1e in and around ho~pitals.

The SECRETARY fOR HEALTH AXD HO)IE AFFAIRS : If you try hard enough you might get a fair mind on it.

lllr. DA2\IIEL: It is no use the Minister's saying that I should have a fair mind. I know exactly what will happen. If the :'>Iiniater is fair-minded surely he wiil allow the members of the boards to select their own chairmen~ He is providing that the Lhairman shall have the c11sting vote. and this means that Government appoint~es will hnye control on all hospitals boards, and whether that will be in the best interests of the people--

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD Ho:1rE AFFAIRS: To carry it to its logical conclusion, you mean that all Government appointees will be "crooks."

Mr. DA:\'IEL: Not necessarily-I do not say that, hut what I do say is that hospitals boards will be controlled by the Minister and that the control will be centra.lised in Brisbane. I do not think this is right or proper.

I am pleased to have the assurance of the ::\linistcr that ambulance brigade boards "·ill uot be brought under the control of hospit·als boards unless it is absolutely neces-sary.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND H0::\1E AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. I-Ianlon. Itlwra) rs.33 p.m.l. in reply: I wish to reply to ilv~ sorne\vhat absurd statcrnrnt:" 1nadc in this House this afternoon by membflrs of the Opposition.

The hon. member for Aubigny, who led lhc debate for the Opposition, complained that the control of hospitals would be centred in the· GoYcrniD<'!Jt, his objcct1on being to th<l Goyernor in Council's having the power of veto of any of the actions of the hospitals boards. Several other hon. members of the Clppo~ition a]~o bitterly coinplaiiwd that il10 (~OYPl'YlD1C'nt retain the ,power to ..-cto anv resolution or expenditure of a hospitals ll<'ard. The hon. member for Albert lashed himsPlf into a passion on the point. J\!fr. Speaker, the Governor in Council has always had these powers over any body created by Parliament. Do hon. members opposite suggest that Parliament should abrogate its power to a hospitals board or other local government bodies of the State? There

Hon. E. M. Hanlon.]

1810 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] H osp£tals Bill.

cannot be two supreme bodies in the State. Is it not ob1·ious that if one body is not in control some other must be? Hospitals boards or local authorities cannot have )JO\\ or,; equal to those of Parliament. There must be an antlwritv in the State that is tlw final arbiter in those matters. To hear hon. members opposite asserting that the Governor in Council should not retain the right to veto an} of the actions of the bodies created by Parliament is so aoourd that one wonders how they haYe remained so long· in Parliament without a greater knowledge of the social and legislati,·o struc­ture of the State. It is h<trd to believe that hon. members opposite have not been long­enough in Parliament to know that it is impo•<iible to give any body cre-1ted bv Parliament power supreme to that of Par!iri'­rncnt.

Mr. EDWARDS: I never said it in those words.

The SECRET.\RY FOR IIEAL'l'H A~D HOME AFFAIRS: That is the logical meaning of what lwn. members have said. If they consider the str·ucture of our Gm·ern­ment they will understand that the people <:!Pet this Parllarncnt, and U1a.t this l)arlia­InPnt 1uak0s our laws. Obviously, as a body, Parliament cannot administer those laws. It is a legislative body, and it dele­gates its adrniu:stratiYo authority to the l~oyc_c·nor in Council as the (•xerutivc 0£ ParlianE'nt. \.YlJcn Parlianll'nt create::; a bodv charged with certain duties it ddiberate(v gives to its executive the right to veto any ac:tiou which the executive of Parlian1cnt con­ceives to be ·wrong or not in t,he interests of the whole of the people o£ the State. That is the essence of our whole legislative• structure. If Purliantent, delegates certain authority and responsibility to a shire coun­cil or city c-ouncil, hospitals board or harbom· board, it must have somebody to sec that its wishes are carried out. I-Iow hon. rne1nbers oppo.site can t(f't up and cornplain about something that has ulways been in our law and i!:) in ilH~ la 1.\· of Pvcry 13rit1:-,h count1·y in thP world-and. I supioosc, every othe.r country in the world that ex-ercises control O\"t'r tJoclie ~ vvhich carrv out the functions o£ loca.! government-I- cannot understand. \Vhat Parliament would create any body in the State and give it superior powers to its own? The proposition is absurd.

Hon. members have taken up muny hours protesting about the po1vers of the Governor 111 Council, \Yho sorne hon. members oppo­site said is the i\'IiHister. He should otudy the Constitution of Queensland and see wh~t the Loclv known as the Governor in Coun­cil consists of. The 1\Iinist-er is onh- one nrcrubor of ihe council. lie brings j n his rt'cornmcndations for consideration bv the whole of Cabinet. which is charged with that responsibility. and every J~xccutivo )linute has to caiTY the signature of His Excellency the Governor before it becomes an Order iu Council. Hon. members pick up their local papcr3 and rnrrko son1e little speech pleasing to the editor so ihrtt he will write an article on it and giYc then1 a. p.at ou the back. Surely they should understand that Parlia­ment would not hand m·er the pmvers of government to some other body in the State?

An 0PPOSITIOX i'I1E3IBER : You arc not the only intelligent man in the House.

The SECRETARY FOR HE.\LTII X'\D HOME AFFAIRS: I am a" are of that. There are other intelligent men here, but

[Hon. E. JlL Hanlon.

I have not intelligence Thev have stan.ding of State.

seen a very great displav of from hon. members to'dav.

displayed their lack of undet'­the legislative structure of the

Mr. :\IAHER: You should give us time to consider your Bill.

The SECRE'I'ARY FOR HEALTH _\.::\D HOME AFFAIRS: The hon. gentleman has been in this House at least eight years, and rwc·"· he wants time to study the legisla~ tivc structure of the State.

Mr. :\IAHER: Here is a Bill with all those clau.s_.s that you are l)ringing in.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A.'\D HOME AFFAIRS: The principles of this Bill-a Bill of local go,·ernment-are con­tuined in -every enactment of every Parlia­rncnt of rho Drltlsh l~rnr)ire. ThC'y are nothing new.

Mr. J\foonE: \Vhat about the Indncstrio.l Court?

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A.'\TJ HOME AFFAIRS: The Industrial Court i' not contained in this Bill. T'he principle Hmlor discus;ion this afternoon has been the power of the Governor in Council to veto any action of local authorities or hospital' boHds, and it has boon in every Bill of a similar kind. Tbo ho11. gentleman. after eight years in Parliarnont, says, '· Give us tinH' to kno\Y what Padia,1ncnt i'. and v:hat the hospitals board is, or the local authority." The hon. gentleman will need centuries to understand the structure of Parliament if he advances at his present rate of progress.

Mr. MAHER: The Minister has had ail this session to hring this Bill down, and he has left it until t1H~ clo~ing day~.

THE SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A:\'D HOMJ~ AFFAIRS : That ,,ill not get the hon. g Iltloman out of his difficulty. The hon. n1c1nbcr for Anbig11Y object:; to the lJoarcJ's baYing j!O'·YC'l' also t !'la-- any part in the prcyc•ntion of di~L a~P. One of t.hc ol>jc_•C'tiYf~s tho Gon:'rntncnt ha;n~ ahva~,·o.; had in mind is the eo-ordination of effort of all the bodies inte>rcstcd in the DH'YC'lltion of disease--the State Go,·ernru~n( the Federal Q.--:;-.. -;prnmcnt

1 the local anthorit"iL3, and tlJC

hospit8 lt-: boards. I pointed out previousb~ that a hospital is not merely a place for putting poultice" on boilr, or pntting a broken li!ul) in splint!'. ho~plt nl~. lJOar<l has a responsibility to the p<'opk. I:! Jll.

members thi' afternoon wailed about the taxing of prirn-1ry producers. _ .. :\ ho;;;pitals hoard certainly has to imposr' taxation to n1C;('t U1e cost of medical and nnrsir1g scr­Yices. but the more that hospitals board do<•s for Lhe llrCYention of sicknes.J the ligllin will the tax on the JlC'Opk. That is why \VC giY£'11. the hospit;:-ds boards po .. Ycr io co-opC'raic \vltb the Joc1l authori­tit s jJ1 tbo pl'evpntion of disease, and that must be done if the rosl of hospital S<'rvice is to be kept as light as po-sibJ,.. ~<o o1w enjoys paying- taxf'-s. ITon. rncrulwrs should know that the- cit:"~ d"\Vt'ller do::•_) 110t 1ikn putting hi>< hand in his pocket to pay taxes. _,__~\.nv Con'l'llllH'nt vrho do th('ir dub· will rndr-c1 your to cn:-;ur"~ that thP cost (:f ~cr­"~:icr' in the conuuunity is a~ lo\Y as po..;:-ible. A }JO::-;pital;; board ea.!UJOt do it, Juty unless it has an opportunit; to help in keeping co2t'> at a 1ninin1un1. and the b(~~t "\Yay of kcc!Jillg co"ts doiYil is to preYPnt pe~ple, as far as possible, from needing the hospitals scrYice.

Hospitals Bill. [26 N OVE:>IBER,] Hospitals Bill. 1811

T_J1c hon. n1ernbcr for Aubign:\- also conl­planwd that the povrcrs given to tho hos­pitals boards wonld Y'>ipc out the powers of the Lea) litilthoritieR. Such a statement is rtbs11rd. Local authorities in Queensland haYo YYidcr powers than any local authori~ ~Ies in. the Briti~h En1pirt·. Similar pc wcrs 1n tl~' tl' o1vn sphcro arc being given to the hosp1tals board. They can make bv~laws affc'cting their own work, their rncclic.:i:l offi­cer~, llUl'~L;, and en1plo2·cos g-enerally, and thcu patu nts. .Everyone emning u11dCr the control · f a ho pitals board will bo bound by its regula-Lions 1nade 1uHler the anthoritv of this legislation. There i ·. nothing in the 11111 to pronde that a hosp1btls b0ard mav make by~La,·c conflicting with .the loca·l ,Luthority by-laws, and the hon. gentleman

misn ading the ,\et ,,hen he says that will be coufnsion and coufliet betv. cen

the b' o authorities in their operations. "'" a nwttcr of fact, if the local gO\·crn~

mt__nt bolnldurics in Quccu~land wcro drawn as they >ome day will be drawn, and as the, should be drawn, in every local authority areCL there wmdd be a complete community of Intcn:c;ts-:-not ouly in production, but in con1111tl!l1Cahon and ~o· on. Then the hos­piLds Loard areas and the local authority

YYould l•o identical, a.nd the local yyould be the hospitals board and

v;ould be no ncccl for two separate authontJes. The need for the hospitah boc,rcls to~day arises from the fact that the ho pila1.; districts and t!H loc.al anthoritv areas do not coincide. ~

~Ir. EDWAHDS: Not in all cases; they may Ill sornc case5.

The SECRETAHY FOR HEALTH A::\'D H0:1IE AFFAIRS: In very few. In the great nwjorit:v of c1:ues they do not coincide. Thcr0 arc sev<.;ra1 local nuthorit~ areas, in 50nle in~tances, in one hospjtals district. If there is going to be u sin1plification of local

. emmcnt in this State, local government ,~:ill h '_Yo to Le ~ci-:ntificallv laid

out. \Yl1cn Lhc ho pitals and local govern~ JUPllt :lTt'<ts <ll'C n1a.cle contrrrninous the people \Yill get better service th<1n under the presr·nt system. That is the objective that vve haYO in vie\Y. .Anvbodv ·who looks ahoud aud pbns the hcaltli' scr~·i~es of the corn· munity u.head must sec that eventually local authoritiec must run the hospitals. Obvi~ ousl,v, it is a local authority job. [t is uot a job for the central Government at all. The need for the regulations to enable hos~ pitals boards to link up with local authori~ ties in the preYPntion of dj~easo ls obvious to an:-budy -who looks rrt our present hospitn.l structure. ln every district in Qt;<'l'H~Ll.nd where there ls a ho.3pital we. haYo a 111cdical -;upcrintondcnt. and in sornc hospitn1s RC\Tcral mccliccd o'ticers, come cf them t'mployed fo1· unlv llart cf thejr tinlf'. But in ev, rv di~­tric:t there j" a m-edical service, aud ~ it is not bf'ing fully u:3cd. That is the cEificnlty. In must oi these cas0s the m"clical officer in tho ho.~pital \Yould f[1ory in an oppor· tunit-.:· tu help in }lreYPntinp: d.isca~e. but unclC'r our rxisting systeru he is relegated to his own little stall and lJis O'.'·ll round of duties, and cannot help in any way in giv­ing grc ·~~~tcr lnoclic::.d servire, which h" other· w1sc conld giYe. This Bill will :..,iYC' us an ovportunity of fu:rthcr utili in~ t'hc ~"rvice~ of medical men engaged in liospit.al work ·throughout the State.

Recently I visited ono small town in :South.\\'c.st Quoomland where there were two

schcoh, a cml\'ent school and a State school, w1t~ a large att.cudanuc of children, 1nnny of them in need of attrmtion for their ey os, whllst only 100 yards a\Yav Uwrc >Yas a hos11it.a l \Yith a docto1· \Yiih nne or two pati~llts in thu ho.spibtl, and the doctor lookmg al)out for something· to do. \Yheu I suggested to him that he should C'xamine the eyes of the children at the school he said that he would G" delightod to do so 1f ho had the authorib. I had no means of giving l1i1n the at1thor"1ty other thau to sug­gest Uw.t he should s"'-' the head teacher of tho convent and State schools and make the nccc~sary arra11getnont.s. Ho dtd that, and t~e \vork •xas. ca.rricd on pron1ptly. It is a dib~J"acoful thing that the medical resources of this State ha,~e been neglected, and that IYO haYe not 1nadc full use of thorn. 1 nlain­tain that m·cry pocsible effort should be 1naJe to prevent the occurr_·ncc oi di5case anlong'·.t our people. Every adYance that \VC n1ake irl this di r,_•rtion i:-; an arlvantao·c to the conununity, and every bme we 1nake !YI'Cetter use of the atodical serrice that is 110\V going a begging we ll1'' ke a step for­ward, and even if it does co::>t a fe1Y ~billings more, the effort is wurth whtlc.

Hon. n1PJn_hcr> Oll]w-;itl~ culnp1a1n bccaus':: lccal authol'ltics have to pay thro hospital precept out of the general bnd. One of the diilicultie'· that I ha' e found in 1()( al autho­rity adrnini~tration is that there i~ a tcnd­~!1e.. to c1·eab: too rnany separate funds. J hey get fogged with all their separate funds, but. tlwre is a special story attached to the stJpulatwn that. hospital precepts nm:,t ~e paid occt of tho genc·ral fund. That vroYl~Ion wa..J 1naclc be foro I ea n1e to Par­lialnf'nt, but I was interested in parlian1en­tary pro eeL cli11gs nt that tirnc ju:;t th~ sa1ne. ~-\t that tin1c hon. rnornbers opposit(~ started a rampaign again~i the Governrnent to sho\v ho"~ il1c [lOOr JWO)Jlc in the countrv were being abused and ill~usod by the 'Labour CovcrnrTlPnt. Thcv started a cantnai()"n of telling the people In the countrv t.hitt fn tlw opillion of the L~.bour Go,·c•rnr{lent any old shack of a hosp1tal was o·ood enough for the farrncr and tlw count'ry people. in an endcrt ,-our to raise a stonn against the Goyernmcnt and their l>ospital policy. This was how they \Vere to ca.rrv ont thP1r cau1-pa1gn: Tlwy \Yore to g{'t tl1~o local autboritv to strike a hospital rate as heavy as they poss1bly could-no matter if they struck it too heavily-and then thev were to tour the C'ountrv alti;using the Gover'nutent saving that t!lo horrible Labour Go,~ernrn~nt 'had put tms ta.>c on the people. ObYiou.sly, at that t1mo th,, people had not had Pnowrh time to ohsnYe th2 achant<t!;O' of the lwspital pol ic.v of the Labour CoYcrnmont. because they hac! not had a sufficifmt opportnnity to observe the improvements in the senice. It is a different matt :r to~day. No matter '"hat they toli the )Jeople about the cost of the ho pital soniccs now, the people can sec their Yalue for themselves. It was r~t..t/1 r umus_lng to hear hon. rnernbcrs oppo­CJtc c·;mplam because thev had been found out in this little politicO:! trick that thev were trying to work. To~night thev said that politics should not enter into h~spital aiTair-. but at that time the Labour Govern· ment's hocpital policy was to be the battle cry of their party in the coming election. ',','he was it that introduced politics inb ho·;pital affairs 'I Hen. members opposite.

J.\Ir. EDWAHDS: Never.

Hon. E. M. Hanlon.]

1812 Hospitals BiU. [ASSEl\1BL Y.] Hospitals Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A:'-ID HOME AFFAIRS: ·when the Hospitals Act wa.s passed in 1923 hon. members opP,ositc decided to make the hoopital s.: stern the1r battle cry at the following election. \Ye arP not so dPtHe as not to knov,· what they airned at. Consequently, it is mnu.sing to hear them get up to-day and say that politics should not enter into hospital adrnini~trabon.

Then again, take the time when hon. members opposite secured control of this tltate. Every hon. rncrnbcr opposite, \vith the 0xception of the hon. members for Fassi­fern Koppcl Murrurnba and StanleY were 1non~ber::; of' that part:y:, and ever".:;/ hen. rnember vvho svoke again~t t,hi;'! Bill wa,s a member oi the Government party under the :\loo re rc•gimc. Ono of the first actions the c took on corni11g into po,vcr wa.s to gO through tfJP list of me m bors of hospit<d board~ with a fine corn b. Quc~tionnairl'S were :::cnt out concerning Uovernrnent repre~ :"('ntahvcs on those board:: w}JOse political principles were not in accord with their own. The reports were submitted to the Uo\·~nuneut. and anyone suspected of Labour leanlllgs ''a' wiped off the boards. I ha,-e the rt')JOrts of the inquiries, together "·ith lette-rs from hon. membcr,s oppo,site before the n·prPsentat'vcs appointed to those boards by the prcYiow:; Go\'C'l'llnlent \Ycre super~ ,cclcd by men who owed allcgience to the loca.l C'ountry ~a.tional rrogressivc PartY and the Unit0d Australia Partv. The;r hon. _HlcrnbC'r.s oppos:tc sny, "Y~n f.hould 11ot Intn~dnrc politic;-:i into ho~pita 1.::." If thr: (JUC''<tton \Vcre not ~so .· eriou~ I couJc1 be' t'XCll.sed for laughing at their protestations.

c\Ir. MILLER: Tell us wlw "\OH do not ;ell er·,· local anthoritic; to .-how 'the amount of hospital hx scparat 1:· on the rate asse s­lncnt?

The SECRETARY FOil HEALTH A:\:D II0~\1F: ):.FFAJHS: If the hon. rncn1lwr hacl not lH'C'll rpflei'tin.,. on his fills llc "\'Votdd ha.Ye h0arcl n1y expltu1~ation on that 111 tttcr.

1\lr. ~\ILLLER: You ha.-c not told us.

:ur. SPEAKER : Order !

The SECHETATIY FOE HEALTH 1\:\D HO:\lE AB'FAlR:::l: ScYcral hon. members put np a case against the inclu;;;ion of a dan>c• in this Dill that places upon any IHernber of .a Joca] authority -..-dJO deiic~s tho \\ill of Parliament and Yotcs for a resolu­tion to cldv the will of Parliament the rcsponsibilit}' of hi.s actions. You know, :\lr. Spe:tkcr, it is frightfn!l:? cas.- for one to get up and make a hero of himself. cspc•cicdly at someone else''·· expense. Could we not all b0. Ra.yjours if so1ncbodv else could b'' lHliJcd to the Cl'O''S? Cm;Jd \\·e not l~c' oll riots a long· n:;:, ~onv'Oll0 ('l~c had to clic c('riain people decided that they \Yonld gi\ e Parllan1cnt a kick. Th~' rnajonty of the rcprt~scntatiycs of tlH' ]1E'01Jlo in th:s. Parlirunent enact lcg-i~lation. and l_jadiarn0t:t is entitled to expect obedience to tLat lf'gi.-da.tion fronr all scct1on:5 of t!J(.' <'OllllEUIIit\-. AboYc alL it js entitled to C'Xll~'(_t oLrdif'nce fro::n- y;cople v, ho a -pin' to public- oflic-c. The first claims of I'ariicc­lntnt to 0

1U('di'-'nce to the law rests on nlPlll­

bPrs c£ Parli :rnPnt. rrhcy a.re in the first place re_ ponsible for obedience to the Ia:w." cf the country. ~cxt ·we expect obedicnr.:e to tho3P 1aY'i'S from other n1cn \Vho aspire to public off-ief'. Th(~sc scction.s haYe a greatf'r re, pon~1bil!ty in the upholding of

[Hon. E. !11. Hanlon.

the law than the rank and file of tho com­munity. Hon. nwmbcrs opposite will go C/Ut of this Hous" and support a party 1uca~ure j11troduccd iu the Federal Parlja­lllPnt by their own party. I refer to the Crin1es Act. It proYides for all sorts of pains and pe-nalties on people who break the law. Sorne pt?opl~ n1a~· refuse to ·work under certain conditions; naturally-they are work­ing people>, that section of tho people ""lwctod of supporting tho Labour Party­no punish1nent is too great for thrm. Then hon. mcmboc, opposite talk of Britioh liberty ctnd British jnsticc•. They have an excellent c•xamplc of the measure of Driti,h liberty and Driti>h j u. tico meted out b~, their Co\7 ernrnent in tlw :F'l~clf'r<ll ;.;phPre in the ca.o-e of that Brjtit:h laclv who cncleaYonred recently to land ill thjs 'countrY. ThPv are ~;oiJ;g "ofi to the Darling Dowris next .. week to support that Uovernmcnt that gave that lady British liberty and British Jn:::bcc in 1 he shape of a kick out of thE countrv when :-he attPn111tcd to land here. The~ .start tl1esc things and then talk about .. British liberty a11d Britj~h justice.

Now lct us get down to tho facts in this matte;·. Parliament legislated along certain lines for hospital work. Those members of a local arnhority that was not g-oing to obey rhl' la·v;' of t1H_~ cOlUltl'Y that carried the legislation eaid they wo{,ld not pay the pre­cept to the hospitals board.

1\fl-. :\IuLLER: You put a gun at their heads.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A:::-.!D HOME .. \FFAlRS: No, I givo them the oppOl"tHIJity of pa.ylng and saving the unfor~ tuna le taxpayers from doing it. I give them an opportunity of showing how earnest they are. I gi.-e them the opportunity of paying then1sdY" '), The hon. rnpn1bE'l' says we have ample power to recover, that we can put tho regulations into operation and go to the Supreme Court and fight a logal hcttle and get vcrdids and all tho.t sort of thing--all at the C'~IH'llS(' of the taxpayers he prete-nds to be supporting and oYer whom ho prdencls to shed toars of agony. That procedure >Yould increase tho tax on the unfortunate taxpayers in that local authority

because they are going to bear the cost l('~U' 1 lw tile Pro C. a bl .. i h~_' h,:~a I

men would cost more than the hospital precept, and ;~·et that is what wo arc sup­po~cd to do iustcad of causing the man who wants to create a di stnrbance and show he can n u!lify an Act of Parliament to pay for his bit of limelight. After all. those people -ere looking for limelight, and if it is worth haYing it is \vorth paying for; and the Go,, crnrnent arc giving then1 the oppor­tunity to pay for that limelight and not put rlw co~t of it on the, ratcpa~·ers for whom hon. 1nen1brr-; clain1 to be concerned.

~\[r·. J\IooRE: Did you prevent the men ,_-;ho struck in the sugar industry from get­ting- a job for five years?

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH .\:'-ID HO:VJE AFFAIRS: No, I did not prevent any of them.

!vir. MOORE: Thev flouted the law. It is only on one side:

:VIr. SPEAKER: Order!

T!w SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOl\IE "\FFAIP..S: 1\o doubt. :\1r. Speaker, the hon. g-entleman would like to see all sorte of pains and penalties put on any mrtn ,-ho worked in an industry. Tho unfortunate

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1813

worker who works for wages should be liable-a~cording to hon. nlCilll)('rs opposite -to all the pains and penalties the Govern­ment may inflict on him.

An 0PPOSITION JYlE>IBER interjected.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO:'vlE AFFAIRS: I am talking about the desire of hon. members to inflict heavy penalties on the poor or the worker, but it is a terrible crime if somebody has to pay for his own offence who is in a position to do so.

Hon. members opposite also object to the power \\·c a.re taking to remove honorary medical ofliccrs. I am not saying that we have not quite an appreciation of the work that honorary medical officers do. I quite appreciate what they do; I also quite appt·e­ciate what they get. l am not one of those pcoplCJ who think that an honorary medical officer goes to a hospital merely for the purpose of rendering service to the poor. \Ye have quite a number of doctors in Brisbane \Vho complain to me that they cMmot gd on the honorary list. That is not conll'olled by the Brisbane and South Coast Hospit.als Board, but by the honoraries in ll0S''·CS~1on. They are in po~se~ ,:011) and tlH'Y do not allcn,· other p 'oplC' ln. lt js the hospital experience that makes the specialist. It is in a hospital that any medical man hccorncs rr ~pecjaljst;, because he gets a vvide varietv of cases and mass treatment. He gets illcnty of practice, and that is where he gPts his experience. There is no p:ofcB­sion or c·n.lling in the world that owes so n1uch to t1w poor [h UH~ llH'thcal p~·ofcs::lou. It i~ upon the poor tbc:v lcaru thc~J' .pro£('.3-sion. awl thev are continually nsing the treatment of the poor to perfect themselves in their profeosion and enable themselve. to charge trC'rncndous fees to tbose 1-Yho arc in a position to pay. So I appreciate the scn·icP:" that th0 honorary rneJ~cal ofiiccr:-:.

and l al~o apprf'ciate Hw 1L'llPflr~ thr.Y ; but my objection to the SCfStem is

it-; irrci!ulnritv and unreliability. Honorary rncdicai rncn arc in no vvay under tho control of the people n ponsiblo for the trco.tmcnt of the ·ick. Parliament places the responsi­bility on the hospitals board and on the medical superintendent. With all the improvmnente and extensions that arc being effected in the Brisbane General Hospital people are still waiting and coming back week after week "aiting for an opportunity to be treated. That is not a hospital service, and we ,,,·ill not tolerate that sort of thing. \Vhere a person in need of medical ser,ice is told to go away and come back in a fort­night, perhaps then to be sent away again ancl talc! to comp back in a month. that i.< not a hospital son·icc at all, and \VC will not stand for it.

As an instance of how unsatisfactory this part-time service can be, I may state that the avPragc honorary gives, say. four hours a wedc of his time. It is quite valuable time. I know. and tho doctoe could be making a considerable amount of money in those four hours. He may attend b,-o days in the wc'ck. There may be anything up to forty patients in attendance awaiting atten­tion from that honorarv. In thn time at his disposal he can deal ";ith, we will say, ten, fiftee·n, or twenty. Away go the rf·mainder, to come back next week, and on their return, if thPv happen to be at the end of the queue. they ha vo to go off again and return at another period. That is not a service. At

the Brisba.ne General Hospital there are nine operating theatres, and if nsed to their capacity they would be ample for the service of the hospital. However, with those nine op<'rating theatres, the work cannot he got through. In the car, eye, and throat depart­ment there are four opPrating theatres that work a total of eighteen hours a. week, or four and a-half hours for each operating theatre each week-beca11se of the system. These theatres have cost the people several thousands of pounds, and yet only four and a-half hours' \York is got out of them each week. They have to be kept clean, staffed, and in repair, as though they wen~ in uc::c twenty-f<Jur hours a day. Each week they are used for only four a.nd a-half hours, notwithstanding a long queue of people are waiting week after week to be treated. Tha.t i~ not right.. and does not suit our policy at all. Sooner or later \YC urust mak~ pro­vision for a staff the members of which can be sacked if they do not turn up for \\ ork on ti1ne. rl'ho .hor~orarv service rnust be accepted when available~. A paid service. even though a part-time paid ael'Vice. would enabh~ us to {'lcrnaud tha_t the• doctors bo there on time the same as v. ould be the ca<e in that of a secretary, nurse, or any other otfiecr. \Ve shall never ha.vc a paying hospital service and never get value for the money invested in hospitals until we do that.

Can hon. mcrnbcrs in1agine any busine::. concern ruu on these lines 't Can they i1nagine shop assistants coming in to do t\vo hours' work on a Monday or Thursday and en_"ry tirnc business i.s increased require further buildings? Of course. thev cannot. And that is all about it. But that is the systern on \vhich the hospitals are running) and considering the money wo have im·ested in hospitals, we are entitled to a better spn-icc· than that.

The clause in the Bill dealing with homes for the aged and infirm, the sick and men­tally ddicicnt, and so on, is necessary. rrhet'C lll'C quite a llUlUber of h0111GS in the State, t111d to do thern justice we Yery rarely hear complaints. Quite a number of them

excellent work. Occasionally nrake a corllpl~Liilt. The Prc ... .;;

0111et i11H-; ruakcs a sensational story a bout tho neglect and treatment of patients" in such homes. l11 justice to these peopl8 it is only right that oomehody should have authority to in ,·estigatc and decide whether there is or is not truth in the complaints. The mcro locking of the g·ates of such a home -doer' not in itself prove that there is any­thing wrong with the institution. At Dun­\\·icll a.1Jd th.J •· Jlolll'; of l~t:~t." where dwr·o arc senile inmates incapable of looking after themselves, it is necessary that they be kept fr01n vYandf'ring, and tho fact that gates are padlocked does not prove that there is any­thing wrong 'vith tbo inGtitution, ncvcrthe~ less. there is a dutv on the Government to inspect any in.stitut!on in which old people are kc pt, an cl which, to some extent, restricts the liberty of the inmates so that they may b ~ ahlP Lo ~-jyp Rll a:;sura.ncc to tlJP ynb1ic that everything is all right. So long ae evor~vthing is being done properly wo should encourage tho keepi'ng of such homes, and give those responsible credit for ''hat they are doing. If. on the other hand, they are not run properly it is the duty of the GO\·ern­mcnc to see that they are.

Auditing will b;, done by the Auditor­General in exactly the same \Yav as under the old Act. · .

Hm~. E. M. Hanlon.]

1814 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

The Leader of the Oppooition spoke .1bout the dcsirabilit.y of putting the recmnnl'2tJJa­tions of the Royal Commi"ion on llo,,pital.s into eftect, that 80 ,per cent. of the hospital prorPpt Le taken by way of tax on \YagP~ aiJ.cl salaries. The Opposition ·went to the couniry i11 1929 on the hospital question. and when t,hey were returned to power we expcc'od somc attPmpt ''ould lw made by the .c\loot·.: Gm·crnment to deal with it. Th" l·o_).al corrnni5sl.on \Y<'!~~ the re."uli. which rcconnnpndod tlm.t 80 per cent. of ho~pltrd pn~ccpt shonld be c~ollcetcd fratn \rages, salariPs. and incoiill\ withont cxcn1ption. It vva.s thought tl1at that \Vonlcl be the r;::tlvation uf th~~ nnforinn:-ttc fanner, but. tlJC hon. ~·entlc1nan told U3 this aftf-rnoon that the depn':-::sion --as the reason ;,vhv it \Ya3 not put into Crpcrntion. The poor O!r~ dPpl't":~ion is no"' · the ins of Jbp ::\1onri' GoYC' ·nmcnt The J-TouH~ Sccrcturv of the cLty, lH r. Pctcrson. is.~ucrl shttC'l~H:nt in_ wliic l1 hP l)01nted. GUt that a ~eh erne ·wonld itn]lO:-'C' a, SrT-ions bnrdrn on thP :-:'11all fanner. He srtid that after t>.king· Nlt trial

on the inco1ne tax 'rl'turns of fanner;:;; jn all parts of QucPn"1and, it

\'i.-as fmuHl t hn.t the scheme rcronm1PndPct by the H.oYal Cmnrnis~lon on llospitals \Yonld inrrer.sc thC' paynH~nts of the sr:na1l farfners by 50 \H'r cent. to 500 per cent ..

}1l'. EDWARDS: Be careful. thr: \Yorkcr, too.

The SECT~ETAHY FOR HEALTH '\:\'D HOME A.b'FATH.S: Tlw whole stat<'nwnt i"' rqHoduc0d in the ·• IIan;;;ard " rt'!lOrt of rny ~JH'Pch on 1 he EstirnatP" and thP hon. Int.•·nbe!· call look it llp. Trial asse:;;snrents had been made on the small farmers in all part.;;; nsl,·tn<l. and v:ith t1H' p~.::ccntlon of one it ' ouk1 lHlYC resu1~Pd 111 an i.ncrcrt:-it)cl )PflYtnPnt bv the fanners of 50 p0r C'( nL t.o .500 per cent. and that is why T hr: ::doorc CoY£'nnnent did put it i11tO ol)el',tti\;L_ That is a tlrctt:v reason \1·hy VIP shonlcl not, either. ITon. n1cn1b0r~ oppo­site sav, ",,.0 stand b~side the primary pro­clnc<'r .. , and iu the next breath they say, "Put a 50 pn cent. to 500 ]Wl' cent. iwavier t lX on the prirnary producer th?cn he ba-: to pay at the prc:-;ent tinH'." \Yh~; do no~. hon. n1ernb0rs 01~1positc think ~.nd n'.1d \vhat 'happcrH'd during their own tlrtn of goYern­lnPnt: Surelv hon. n1cn1ber~ know that if rhrrc had be;,n anv v irtne in that rPco'n­rnenda Uon their Govc'rllnH~nt 1vonld ha YO

it into operation, but I have alrcad.v n the rca~on ·\\'hV it was not. Under

nonnal conditions thG pre:-;ent taxation is not oppres,ive but as eyerybocly knows, the corlcliti(;ns at prcs0nt. arc not normal anrl the fan110r cannot C'Ycn pay his. ratC'f;.

'The matter of bilqnests "·as rcfencd l J.

T!.c Local Authorities Acts a:al crlw;· .\ds ,\mcndment Act of 1934 proYidcd tlmt whc're n bcqnost \\·a~ rnade to a hospital it h~d to be ~iJcnt for some special purpo::;;e, ·nc-h n~ ,~- roYiding a n8VV X-ray equipn1ont. or o:)erat­ing theatre, or smne ad~llt1ona1 in1nron~rnr:-nt in. thP hospital. It was to ]>rf'n·n"t an;., body 1n 'tk;ng a lH'qucst sin1ply to lighten the r>l.te..­of a local authority, and at the same time we hopeJ to erH·ourarre people to help the hospitnls in that way.

After listening to the debate this after­noon, 011e is struck with th0 hollcP<"/nc:;;;;; of the arguments of hon. mernbors oppo_jite. They said nnthing new. nothing that has not been sald already since 1923, and there is no reason to alter the principles of the BilL I haYe one or two amendments to

[Hon. E .. fill. Hanlon.

propose in order to make the intention of .CPrtain rparagraph::t and clauses cle.trcr. but taking the Bill by and large, I think tlhl

people cnn expect better treatiuent and con­trcl under it than they haYe received in the )111St.

(\upstion--" That the Bill be now read a second time" (Jir. Har1lon's nzotion)--put; and the House dividcd.-

AYES, 28. l\lr. Df(J'Wll

Hulcock Clark Conroy Cooper CoplL,/, P. R Da..oh Dunstan Folcy Gair G ledson lianlon Han~.;on

Hayes Hilton

Mr. Bell Brond Clayton Daniel Edwards :\Taher l\1a:nvell

AYES.

Mr. O'Kede Stop ford Collins

Mr. Hislop

KOES, 12.

Hynes Je:-::son Ke:,gh Larcom.be M ann l\1cLean :'.lultan Smith \Vc1lingt'11l \Villiams, T. L.

Tellers: Duggan Healy

Mr. Moore Kicklin Walker

PAins.

TelleTs: Muller Plunkett

NOES,

Mr. Deacon Ru' ,cll

NiiTI1110

r'01DII'l'TEK

(Jfr. Hunson, lluranda, in thr rhair).

Clan~P~ 1 to 4, both inclusiYc, as read, agTPf'd to.

Clansp 5-" JI edical uppointnu nts "-

The fiECRETARY FOl't IJEALTH AC\'D HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. K M. IIanlon, !!ham) [9.15 p.m.]: I move the following anlcnduJent.-

" On page 7, lines 40 to 42, omit the \Yorc1s-

' Department of Health and Home _\ fft.:.irs for review by the 11inister n.nc1 has rC'cPived the rerornmendation pf the ::\Iinister in respect of such application' '

and insert in 1 ieu thereof the words-' Director-General bv hirn and has :Oircctor-GPneral inY('Stigation s.' .,

for inYestigation rer0iYed from the a reporL of his

flon. momben will rcmen,bcr that when 1 'X<L~ explaii1ing- tl!e Bill ye"tel'dav I pointc~d oat that somebodv should be able to adYisc the ho~pita ls Loarcl..; conCl'i'tling the clwractcr and the ability of the applicants for the'e positicns. 'The Director-General of Healih ancl J\ledical Service::; is in a position to do that. 1 should not be in a position to say lvhotiH:-r a doctor 1vas a good one or a bad Ollc-I shonld know nothing about it. vVhen the Dill was drafted the words that I seek to omit were included m error. If the arriPrHlrn ~nt i.~ carried it will rnean that eaeh application will go to the Director-General, who will make his comments tlwreon and send it b'lck Jo the board which \"Yill make the appointment.

Amendment (Jh·. Hanlon) agreed to.

Hospitals Bill. [26 'NOVEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1815

~Jr. MAHER (TV1 st M 01·eton) [9.17 p.m.]: I think that we shoulcl enter our protest again~t this Ycry drastic paragraph·-

,. ='io action, .suit. or other proceeding ··hall be commenced. prosecuted, or main­taiioed against the Government of Queensland, or against any Minister of tlu~ Crown, or against the Director­General of Health and Medical Services. or again,t any board or cmnn1ittce, or against any rne1nbcr or officer thereof, or against any member of the public ~erYicc, or against any other person for 0r. on account of any act, matter, or tlung done or recornn1cndcd to be done pursuant to thiB sretion.'·

That is an extraordinarily (lrastic provision, and I think the :\[inister might inform the CominiUce \Yhy such po,~,cr:s al·e being taken. A r.-1sc may arise in which an injustice has been {]ouc to E'Orncbodv. \Ye c;•nnot sav th~t j hose boords. Or OY~'ll an official of the 11t1bljc Sf'r\~icl< or an~- ppr~on ~·-hate':Pr :rna.?· not lea\-€' lhernsch·cs open to a('tir.:n b, giving sufficient cause. ~

The SECRETARY FOR HK\LTH AKD H 0'\!E AFFAIRS: That protection only applioo to this particular recommendation. It applies to the Director-General of HeaJth and Mredical Services. or board, or com­mittee. or any officer thereof, or any ofiicer of the public service or person whom the Director-Geller.al ma.v report to, "\vho carries out instructions on his behalf. The rocom­rnrnclat.ion~ of the J)jrector-Ccneral will he confidential, but ono never knows when a recon1nHmdation might be rclrased in the same manner a; was clone in the case of the Hac<ccom •s Acts and Other Acts Amend­ment Bill.

1\fr. MAHER : I could und<'rstancl protec­tion being given to the Director-General or .!\Iini . ..:;tc•r.-; of the Crown, or 0Y<'n rncnl­bers of a board. but this gives protection to any other person at all. Some doctor \Yho rnakP~ npp1ica.t1on for a po.,ition r11lght be victimi_sed and libelled by some party in authonty.

The SECRETARY FOR HE.\LTH AND Ho:~rE AFFAIRS: Ho knows the conditions under which he applies.

?vh. MAHER: Wo are not justified in extending that protection to " any otlier persm~ for or on account of any act, matter, or thmg done or recommended to be clone pursuant to this sedion." It is only right that those in authority who haYe to do ,,ith and handle the appfications shonld be so protected, but this protection go0fi bC'yo:nc1 that.

The SECRET'ARY FOR HEALTH J l' 0 HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. K 1H. Hanlon, Jthaca) [9.23 p.m.]: It is obvious that. it is no use asking the Director-General cf Health and :rv1cdicat Services to make a report on •my applicant fm· a medical appointment if he thereby lays himself open to an acti'?n at law. The Leader of the Opposition will surely understn,nd that quite a. number of things might affect the suitability of a doctor to take charge of a hospitaJ \ hich might be difficult to pro1·e. That is par­ticularly so if the Director-General obtains that information in confidence from some other part of the Commonwealth or i\' ew Zealand. Such report c would be confidential to the board. but the fact remains that some­time- confidential documents have a habit of esc.1ping. Obviously, the Director-General

or anybody else, such as an officer of th& public service who despatched that report to the hospitals board. might render himself liable to an action, but this clause will pro­tect him. It is so framed as to protect anyone handling the report of the Director­General on the suitability of an applicant to the position of a medical superintendent. This protection is quite necessary, otherwise the whole thing would be futile. \Ve must exercise care in making such appointn1ents for the sn fetv and I'> elf are of the sick in addition to ~others and babies. '

Mr. ~1AHER: It is Ycry necessary.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AN1J HOME AFFAIRS : Boards bhould endea­vour to obtain the bo,t possible doctor. If they cannot get good doctors at tho salaries at proocnt offu-ccl they will havo to pay more'_ for they are entrusting that officer \Yith the care and welfare of the patients.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clau' ·s 6 to 8, both inclusive, as read, agreed to.

Clau~,, 9~'· Co11frol of ro[untury hos­pitals"-

Mr. PLUNKETT (Albert) [9.24 p.m.]: I desire sorno inforn1ation fron1 the ~1inister conccrniug hospitals now on a voluntary b>1sis. This Bill empowers the Minister to­.. dl:-trict" ~uclt institutions. There arc :,bll t:OllH.' lw.c.:pital,, working under tho Yolun­tar,'l sy~ten1, tl.nd thcv arc I\ or king very l;tard to retain that basis. Can U\0 l\1mrste1: iutimate to this Committee if it is his inten­tion to excrci:-;e the powers reposed in hirn under this Bill and " district " these insti­tutions by proclamation? I desire _this ir}£orn1ation for this reason: rrhese ho·-spltals aro kept going on a voluntary basi~ to a large extent by entertainments orgamsod to ra33e finance, and would like to know vvhere they at·c-.

Ti1n SECTI EL\HY FOR HEALTH A:\D IH!:'>lE AFF_UHS iHon. F. t;J_ Hanlon. itlwcu) [9.25 p.m.]: The GoYernor in Council has alwa; :-. had po\ ·l'l' to tnkc control of anY jn;:.,tirurioll. This ~ection hR ... , br.:eu in t hL~ l-Io.-"pita1s \.et f-,inc,"' about 1860 in ea~0 all~Tthi11g "\Yent wroug· with thl' lto..;pita.L In tl1c olcl c!av' it \Yas not for some cc:w,clal to be hospital. and the GovcrnrnPr:t haJ power by issue of proclarnation to take it oYer and appoint :;:omcbod:y to run it. V\r e excrci,;;;ed that .po\ver on one occasion in the case o£ tlu ~fonnt I'<l Ho:::.pita1. At the t~rne there was sorne indu~trial trouble in thnt ccntrP. and. the committPe could not carry on and they oaicl thcv wonlcl haYc to :'ack tlm ,qtitff. \Ye could 1iot sec th. rwoplc ldt \Yithout ho:-'}J1tal, aLd IH' took control of it uudcr thi..~ feet ion.

ClausE~ 9, a.s r'-ad, as;rced to.

C1a.usc 10-" Cnuuthoris(£1 collections"­

:\h. 1\!00RE (,lu!Ji!fll/1) [9.27 p.m.l: I ~hould I ikc .a littl(' infonnatlon on th1 :o.

clau.:,e_ Thjs is the clan-<c that ]ay::; it down that noboch- Iws any right to ,-:ollcct any n1oncv for" any organi~ation except the­hospitals board.~ Then then i~ a proYiso-

" ProYiclcd th<tt this sub"'ction dwJl not aJlply to 'LllY hospit.1l c,tablishcd undPr 'The Frie.ndlv Societies Arts. 1930 to 1935.' or by allY 1·cligious organi~ ::;ation, or by any person or as.sociation

Mr. Moore.]

1816 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

of persons excepted fron1 tho opcrat~on of this ,ubsection by the GoYernor in Council."

T do not know what bn1itation there is on that. \Ye know the Country \\"omen'' Aeocialion ( <Jttage ho.:'pitals collect funds. and thl'rc is a Bush .Xur~ing AsRociation that collects fund~. and a Dit)trlct ~'\ur.sing A' so­elation in Br{sbanc ~hat aho collpd.::. funds.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AJ'\D HO?vlE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. :\1. Han !on, lthaw) [9.28 p.m,J: They arc ext•mptod b:· the Uon~rllOl' in Council. rrhc others, such as a, roli&;iou5 ho:~pita.l or a fr·iendly fjocictic;:;; bospical, are exempted under th Act.

.i\Ir. :\IooRE: The nu~h Xursin,; A::socia­tion is not a rc1igiou~ body.

Tl"' SElTtEL\HY FOR HEALTH A~D HU.'.LE AFl•"AiHS: Those arc o'Complccl by prodawation.

Clan_-c 10, as read, agreed to.

Clause 11-" llctUJ ns by bo!J;d or eo m­m A /re ·-as read, <>greed to.

Clause 12-" ~Y £ u.· d!"tricts arul bounls "--

The SEC.l\ETARY FOH HEALTH A="D HOi\1E AF.FAlHS (Hon. K J'v!. Hanlon, It!t'ttu) [9.29 p.rn.]: I have two Yerba! amend­rncnts in this clatt:JC. I ll.iOYC the follo\ving aurendnrcnt: --

" On page 13. l~ne 3, onrlt the "·ord­~ ~PYen '

ancl in:-ert in lieu thereof tbe \YOrd­

' nine.'"

An1er1dn1C'nt agreed to

The SECHETAHY FOR HEALTH A~D HU~\lE AFFAIUS: (Hon. E. ::\I. Hanlon. It haw): lmoYc the following amendment:-

'' On page 13, line 11, ornit the words-~ ' The Hospitals Acts, 1847 to 1891'

and insc'rt in lieu thereof tho words-• l'flrt IV. of this Act.' "

Arncnduwnt agrf'l?d to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13-" Constitution of boards"­

Mr. ::\IAHRI~ (West },.fore ton) [9.31 p.m.]: I move tlw following amendment:-

" On page 16, line 26, omit the words­' two, three, or four '

and insert in lieu thereof the words-' one, t\YO, or three.' "

The effect sought by the anwndrnent is the reclnction of the· nurnbcr of (;overrnnent appointees by one, that one Government nominee to bo replaced by a local authori;y representative, as is proposed to be provided for in a consequential arnenchnent on line 30. Local authorities are cnt,itled to greater rt:,pro;:;entation than they receive, and if this anlPllLhncat is accf'ptc.rL it \viil give th~rn tlwt additional representation.

The SECRET.\RY FOR HEALTH AKD HOME AFFAIRS : ·you aro receiving a lot better than under the old Act.

Mr. MAHER: It establishes the principle of control. The representatives of the local autl:ority could be jnst as fair to the Govern­ment as could Government nominees.

Mr. GLEDSOX : Are they not also local men?

[Jir. Mom·e.

Mr. l\L\BER: J'\ot always. Thev mav be public offiCl'l"S, who perhaps have· not" the ~alllt' interests in d1P locality as have the people \\·ho reside there, a;td have their business interests there. V crv frequently, the Govcrnrnent notninec is dra \\ n from the public :"Cr\'icc. There can be other avpoin~ tees also that may not have the same stake in the locality as would those appointed by local authorities. But if we accepted, and \\e must accept it as the Bill at present stends, that the representatives of the GoYcrnrncnt arc desirous of acting justly, snrp]v tho GoYt~rnn1cnt ca.n vic1v it from the othc 1: side. and cmtecdc that the extra repre­S<•ntativrs, d tltP local authorities would be be, md to be fair and just to the Govern-

ThD SEcm:T\RY FOR HL\LTH A~n HooiE AFF.UUS: You should look at it the other vYay, too.

Mr. MAIIER: Oh, no ! The SECHETARY FOH HEALTH A~D I-IoniE

A1.FAIRS: :\o. 1_rou y,ant -jt your way.

Mr. l\1AilER: The Government must recognise that the principle of local control should Le nrcscned. The Bill certainly takes that ir;to account. but onlv in a half­hearted wa~~. The J\iiinistf.'r i~ his intro-­ductory speech on the Bill emphasised lhe importance of local effort, interest, and connol. It is one thing to talk about it_ bqt quite anotllPr to put it into practice. Here is an opportunity for the l\linistcr to incorporate' in a Bill that ho must admit br ars mtjrEily on the people on the land--

TJH ;.:,ECHE'l'.\RY FOR :HEALTH AXJJ IIO:\IE

~lFF.\JB : I do not admit anything of the kind.

.!\h. :vL\I-IER: He must admit that. It has bt'cn tJcintcd out to h in1 ti1no and a~:taiu that the people on the land are carrylng­~lu: _grcate:~t burden. The businC'ss and pro­fe;:;.~Jonal nlh'lT'~ts, and the lando-wners in ilJe to\vns and cities. hayl~ 110t the sanH~ oblig'ation as haYe the lando\Yncrs -in the country district~. lie know::; thn t. J-L~ Yinp; regard to the fart that the people on thr land are not being justly dealt with. is it not right that he ,should g·iyo thc·m a little bit stronger representation on tbe hospitals boards than they have got, e\·en if it is Jt the expense of a Gove-rnment no:ninf'e? If a bortrd consists of nine rcpresentatiYPs. the contributors ,providing one, the Govern­ment having four with a casting yote for tht chairnutn 'vhich is equivrrlent to five, and the local authority four, would it hurt to reduce the Govcrnrnent norninccs i o tlll'Cl~ and iHcrcaso tho local authorjty rcprcsl'nta­tivPs to five? Tlw Go,-erninPut do noi 1o::c, c·,·en on that basis. They still have a strong positicn \ovith theil~ reprr.;;cntation, tJO'sf'r, and intere3ts on the hoard. I think it \\"Onlcl be wort-h while to make this conrecs'on to the local authorities and increase their Yote by one and decre:tse the GoYcnnnent l'l'pre­scnta6on by one and see how it works.

Tho SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO;yJE ~\FFAIRS (Hon. E. :\1. Hanlon, JtTt'u>a) [9.37 p.m.]: I cannot accept the amendment and I do not think the hon. g·cntlcman seriously thinks that I would. or really expects it to recciYc serious ('Onsidl~ra­tion. It was an1usring to hear hitn trying to rnakf' a case for higher reprcsentat]on for the ]oca.l authority and lower representation for the Government when only a few minutes

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovEMBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1817

ago we heard the hon. member for Fa"i­fern making a case, supported by the Leader of tho Opposition, for shires in ho.spital areas to be allowed re,prescntation in proportion to their contributions to the hospitaL If those hon. members could change themselves back to where they were a while ago, they would oppose the amendment. They have made a case that the local authorities should soled their representatives on the hospitals board and be allm,-ed to do it in proportion to their cmitribntions to the hospital. If that principle is sound, thPn it is quite sound for tho Government to ha vc renrescnta­tion ou the board in prono.l.'tion to their con­h·ilmtions to the hospitals.

Mr. ::\1AHEH: The board is an elected bod)·.

The SECRETARY FOR HE:\LTII ~\'\D HO::VIE AFFAIRS: Partly clt•ctcd and partly Ecniinatcd, hut tbc rcpro~clltation if' jn accordance, \vith the financial obligations of the partic~ COliC'Prncd. ..._

Nir. MOORE (A.uiJigny) [9.38 p.m.]: I can­llot sec that it is sound for tho, Government to haYf' CYtra rt'prPscntation on a hcmrd that has the authority to spend the neoplc's mone.v, which has been collcct0cl for the hospital. To lH:ar the Minister talk one \YOuld think it was lwing taken out of his own poekf't. \Ye haYc li:;:.tencd to homilie" from the Minister on '·hat we shonld do and ,,-hat we should not do. H0 is not interested in the hospitals but is trying to scor,~ off th<1 Oppo ition for political purpoees. Tho whole c>f his snccch h"s hccn en endeavour to accnsc ihe 'Opposition of some political ~in ar,d of trying to get a little bit of kudos m a rag of a local paper. Tt has not been a question of getting the Bill throuP,"h or giving justice to the people who are trying to run the hospitals. efficiently. ·when he brought in the Bill he ~aiel that local control was to be a big factor in it. ·whore is the local control wher1 the Govcmment have a rnajority on the board every time, and have power to rescind an~v rc·solution?

The PRDITER : Why get so ;-ehement about it'!

::\Ir. "\.iOORE : The people in the com1try nn: suff0ring a grave injustice under this Bill.

The SECHETAHY FOR HEALTH AND HOME ...;\FFATHS: Arc you serious'!

Mr. l\IOORE: Y""· absoluteh'. and the Minister knows they arc, because to-day he has repeated the crime. He says that the monc:' has to be taken from the general fund for fear that people will know how much thPy pay if it is collected b)' a special tax. The hon. gentleman said a little while ago that tl1e rcaeon that was put in'""' that there was propaganda against the Goy,ernment. Ho said that when the people appreciated the adva.ntagos of the Ho~pitals Act no propn­ganda nnttrrocl YPt the ::\1inister con­tinues the system of ta.king the money from the general funds instead of baYing- a special rate for the tax, because h0 kno'>\TS ]t js unjmt. All these homilies that we haYo lwen list0ning to for tho last tbrno-qnarters of an hour do not alter the fact thnt it is unju~t. T'hi~ am(•nd1nent would give an oppor­tunity to the people concerned of ,sa::ing· how the money would he spent. They arc doubly taxed-directly from the land and incli n•dly in portion of HIP 60 per cent. that the l\1inister so generously gives to hoS)lltals. Am·one would think it vva·, ovvn money ! V

Tlw SECRETAHY FOR HEALTH A~D Ho:>.:E AFFAIHS: Evidently you arc sm·e about your n1oncy that you arc paying in.

Mr. :YIOORE: I 11111 sore about paying rnoro than I should contribute.

The SECRET.\RY FOH HEALTH AKD HmiE AFF.\TRS : It is an individual matter with you.

:\fr. MOORE : I takP very little notice of the insult-s of the :\linister. I am sur­prised thflt he cannot pilot a Bill through without getting down into the gutter.

The SECHET.\RY r·on HEALTH Axn Ho:uE AFniRS : I ha.vc to follow .-ou. (Iutcrrup-tion.) "

The CHAIRJ\IA~ : Order !

Mr. MOORE: The Minister mnv th:ni{ it is cl<'ver, bnt it is not. lt is only objec­tionable and offensive.

ThP SECRET.\RY FOH llEALTH A~D HenlE AFFAIRS : I am not going to let you get a\Yav with anp of the hElnbur_':' that ;;·ou haYe bc-rl puttjng .o;;cr this ConuT~_iiteP ..

i\h. ?>IOORE: It is objcciionablC' and off~nsiYe. auc1 thoro is nothing to be gained bv it. The ~vr~tPlll of taxation i:S unfair, a;1d the Min"ister, according io hi, m;n achnl.:;sion. knOiYS it. In the ra."e of eYPl' ,.·

other ta.x the people know ; h.tt they a!'.('

pa,·ing and what it is for. If this were a fair tax the Minister would ad,·ocate that tlwv idiOulcl kl•o•.Y. All this talk to the efiect that the to.-..: would be from 50 per cent. to 500 per cent. more if collected from incon1c is nonsense and worth1('ss.

A GovEHX~IEXT !HE~IBEH: You authorised it.

Mr. :\lOORE: I did not authorise it at all. I do not believe it for an instant, b(•ca,nsc it is too obviou~lv ab::~trd. It i~ not the position for the past "few "'r,ars. and the fact of ,-aying it will not alter the truth.

:\lr. GLEDSO~: It is Y0l1r own s:rovcrn­rrlont.al "tatement in y~ur O\Yn rc~1gn of office.

l\Ir. MOORE: The rC'ason that the tax \Vai'l not put on income \vas b0caust~ the uncmpJ,c)·mcnt relief tax was imposed and "'~ages Dlld inc01nes had bran redneed.

Tlw SECRET \HY FOR HEALTH \;-.;n Ho~m AFF.\TW Ynn -win proLably f:n,y it was the deprcs~ion.

~-fr. ::\100H.E: Is tha.t not tlir eame thin:(? The SECHETARY rou HEALTH Axn HoME

AFFAIR'l: You told the e'cctors it was lwr·n.u.~c it \i'Otdd hurt thE:' sn1ctll fanners.

\lr. 1\TOOH E : I c!irl not tell them am-· thing of the <ort. I told them the same as I a1~1 tdling- thQ l\ Ti11istnr noY.T. In view of the reductions at the iitne it \vas thought unwise to alter the incidence. The position now ic totallv different, ancl tlwrt: if'; no r_•xcnsc fer co{ltinuing the injustice. It \YOtdd be> no inju -.tlce to giYc local control~ and I c<ulnot S<_'l' the forct-- of the· objection to it. If it is ,:oocl to ktn a local iHtere>t in hocpital "mrttters there :-;hould be n1orc loc.t l authorit·y r,_;prc~cnta­t;Ycs: the lo•.al people have to find the mone)'. These people arc not pariahe. They an' crdinar."~ citizen~ liYing ]n t1Je C!istrict;;; affected. \Y-hv $hould it b~ thou6·ht a tC'rrlble thing fOr the n1en \Yho ~tn~ respon­sible for collecting 40 llCT Cf'1it. of the n1one~: to have greater rcprcscutation on t]u;

l'rlr. Moorc.]

1818 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

board? I cannot sec an0 thillg undesirable Ill It fron1 any point of vie"r· \Yo all n1ix with these people, and v;hen the J\tiinistor goes to the country di::-tricts he, too, rnocts members of the hospitals boards. and I am sure that bo does not find allylhing in par­tJcular 'vrong w1th them.

The SECRETARY FOR HEAL'rn A::-<D HOME .:\FF.\lRS: '''hat is your complrtint about·: If the 1najorit>.1 of 1hern arc decent ('hll]lf', ~:1cl the n1ajority arc Go\·crn1ncnt rcpre~eHta.­t!vt':::, IYhat i~ the objection?

J:\lr. ~IOORE: :\ly objection is that the people '"ho aro rosponsiqle for the 40 per cent. arc not giYcn acleqnatc r0prcsentation on the bDard. Xothing- ,,-ill con.-inco me tb .. t they are. The '1\-Tinistcr can put this 1TICi<lO.:Ul··o thrcugh, as be could pnt -anv throug·h, bnt that does not alter the fa;t that the position i:- unfair and unjust. The agitation has not died dowll, and ilw feeling ~)£ injw-tice "Jtill runs high arnon~ the pc~ople 111 the countl·y. Thi8 is a thing alway"' green in their mornorios. and i" a1way!" being· talked .about. It mig-ht allay the feeling that an unjust burden is being placed upon thcn1 1£ tnr·:_v hi1d adequate rr-vrC'scniahon on the boa rcl FJ a-. to gi YO tlwm. a controlling voice. The' :J;ini-;t0r· lr1.s a controlJin ~ Yoic:' aboYr that again, through the Govol·nor in Council. a.nd there is no reason "'P;hv he' should -<:l~~o bo able tD excrrise control w'ith1n ~hP- boan! itself.. TIH're is nothing unjust In a5=.lu_IIH f~r this arncnc!.mcnt to giv0 local authont1cs rncrt'<Lsccl reprc"'it'ntabon on the boanl. because thev rrre the people most vitally conec,J:wd, They arc the !lOOple who hv~- 111 the dv;:.tnct and ·who arc cor.cernccl vvith hospital affairs. There is nothing- YCrY terrible in tllf~ bnt tll(' 2\li~nistei~ -sccn1s to think they are going deliber-ately to upset ]lis ideals in eonncchon with hocpital alia in. ·whv should thcv?

Tlw S;.ccnE1'ARY FO~ HEALTH ;1~n IIo:1m _.\J•'J·AHIS: I arn not.

Mr. ~liOOTIE: One !lti10g that the.- "mt to "'' is that the,, get a proper and cffi­cwnt coutro] of hoopiia!s, and that they got valtw for the monev that is contributed bv tho people that the;- represent. L that no't a laudaL!c objective?

The SECHETAUY FOH IInLTJI AXD Ho~rE AFFAIR~: The wh, le Bill is dc<;::-nccl for that purpOSP,

Mr. 1\fOOIU<:: It is r.ot, lwcans0 the very people who aro most interested in getting· value for the n1oncv that is contributed are denied a oontrollin[( voice on the board. T'hc ~lini~t-'l' <;:ecrus to think that t.l10r will be nigg-.J.rdly am! will not cDnduct the hos­pitals in t.ht \Vay that, he thinks th"v should be ccnductf'(1. ~

Tlw SECHETAHY FOH HE.ILTH AXD IloorE AFFAIRS: l have nothing against them.

}h j1(1 0HE: Then ,y]w not give them 'th i' rcpresenta tion? '

The SEcHETAHY ron HEALTH ANn Ho:uE AFFAfHS: \Yhat itcldcd .-irhw have thov over oth0r- loc;tl people appointed bv ihc C:i'ororn-_nlcnt? ~

J'\Tr. J'\IOORi<:: Th"y arc not local people. The SEORI:HRY FOR IlEALTH AND Ho~IE

AFJ AJHS : They are.

l\lr. J'\TOOTIE: Very often thev are Govern-nH'nt officials. ., "

The SECRETAHY FOR HE.,LTH AND HoME AFFAms: They li.-e m the IDcality.

[Mr. Moore.

Mr. }fOOHE: They are !i.-ing temporarily in the locality, but that is different from people living ther-e all the time. Tho rate­payers have io contribut0 40 per cent of the deficicncv, not ~coording to their ability to pay, but 'because they are landowners. 'l'hey are justly entitled to have a dominating say on tbo boanl. If they do not carry Dut their work ctficientlv the Minister has power to remove them. In fact, he has power to rescind any resolution that they may pass. It is unfair that the l\linistf'r should exercise this contml and at the same time place the rcsponsibilitv on the local authorit-,- repre­sentatives to meet the criticism of their electors. You cculd not expect them to give of their best under tho"e circurnsta.nccs. rrlv'y :;;honlcl be ab],_, to -conh·ol the:..;{~ affairs, beccLu:::c the !v:Iini.~t''l' has :-:.aiel Uwt he bdie<· in local contrDl in this connection.

:\ir. MULLER (Frtssifcrn) [9.48 p.m.]: I ''·as surprised that the Yiini.ster ehould reject the an1endm ~-nt, {'"11ecially in yje,\ of his remark~ a fc,,~ 1nonwnts ngo to the effect that he hq1ed to sec the clay \vhcn local authority boundariPs "'·.Yould be so rl·e:>ignod that the. local aut!toritie' could he Pntrustocl \', ith the whole rosponsihilite' of controlling th" ho,pitals. Tlwn it ,-,ould "ot be a c'"'" of loc~!l anihoritic"· haYiDg 50 per cent. of tho represpntation on the board. bnt of haY­ing· lOO per cent. of the r prc<entation. He just accnsc(l rrw of being· inconsistent in conneclto;o with hospital precepts. but it is lw V ho i' ilH·on.'i'tPnt. VY e ha YE' ju,t mm-eel an 'trn<'mlmeut that will hast0n the dav when local anthoriti0' will assmnc full con'tro! of the hospitals, and in rejecting it he is aim­ing :t b1o\Y at i lw Ycr.v tl1ing that he was adYorntin,c: a n10n1cnt ago. The iC1lncndmcnt will provid0 for rnorc equitable representa­tion on tlw hospitals boarcl. The Minister ma: nppoint GovernJnl'nt. nornin0r-~ frorn tirn, to tinl('. \Y(' bc:n~·c had instanrC's 'where an Ule C:rY('I'TIDlf'nt nmninC('S 1'0sirl0d v.-·it.h1Il a mile of caeh other. whcrcn.s the loc>tl ~n.iboritiec v:onld see that their reprcsenta­tiYc.-; were dra:wn frorn diffcrf'nt parts of the area COlF'Prncd. If there "-ere. say, ten r0pn~o;:entatiYc:;: fron1 loc:-tl authont1e.~ Dn the bo:Hrl. ,-on ean lwt yem· life that they ·would ~PC' that thcv \'- .'n' drawn from all

of the hc·pih1ls district. It conld not t~r~11, d that 5=.uch n•prc:-cnt.atlon \You1d

not be fair and eqi1it.ablc. I appeal to the ~fini~trr to rrcon"idcr his d0eision, and jf it i, at all JlO'"iblo. to try to give us fair :1nd rca-.:onab1e representation throughout the whole of the arc;t.

The SECRETAHY FOR HEALTH "-'\ND HCY:\IE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon. Jtharn) [9.50 p.m.l: The hon. member foi· .\.ubigny has got frightfully annoyed because I showed what he '"a' -doing to deceive me. He made a display <1bont this hospital tax.

TIIr. BHAXD : It was not true.

The SECRETARY FOH HEALTH .\ND HOME AFFAIRS: Of course it was;

Mr. BHAND: There was no truth whatever in it.

The SECRETARY FOR HEAL'I'H AND H0:\1E AFFAIRS : Hon. members oppo­site think it is a long time since they tried to pull the leg of the man \Yho WitS '' the back­bone of tbc collntry," and so on, and then got their spcechPs dospatchccl to the small local papers, and that their speeches now "ill get them three 'hecrs during the Darling

Hospitals Bill. [26 NovE~iBER.] Hospitals Bill. 1819'

Downs election. That is what is at the back of the whole thing. The hon. m0mber for Aubigny got annoyed because I told him so. I am not so dense as not to know that. The hon. member for Aubign:T knew that the Governor in Council always had con­trol. He know better than what he was saying when he talked about Government co!'trol. He said the present Act was a crime.

l\Ir. 1\IooRE: So it is.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH )d\D HOMJD AFFAIRS: The hon. member for . A.ubigny is pleading guilty to being an acces­sory to a crime. Ho had control of the Government in 1929, au-d he allowed the crime to continue. Yet he g-ot up here this evening and said ihe reason that the recommendation of the roval commission that 80 per cent. of the mair1tenance of pub­lic hospitals oho11lrl he obtained by a direct tax on wages was not adopted by his Govern­ment was because they wore compelled to introduce the unemployment relief tax. His own Cabinet prepared" a statement o; er the signature of ~Ir. Peterson, tho then H'omc Secretary, _,·hose story why the ~\et was not alterc•rl was that a trial assessment had boon taken ont covering all the areas of Queens­land and it was found thDt in m·ory area except one the incidence of taxation would be increased b~ 50 to 500 per cent. I pro­duced a copy of that circular in this Cham­ber and road it when the Estimates were being discussed. It can be found in "Han­sard." The records arc there, as prepared by the hon. member for Aubigny's own Cabmd. \Lrs he ollly pulling the lcg\s of the electors again or was it a little 'story like the 10,000 jobs and £2,000,000' Per­haps he thought any story was good enough for the electors at that time. Now he wants to toll me another. but I am not accepting any of his stories, sooing that he has. already told two others during this SOSSlOD.

'The hon. member for Fassifern appealed to llle to e1ccc-pt thP :-tnwndn1ont. but I vcn~ tur<' to sav that m·cry hon. member of the Opposition' would get a terrific surprise if I did accf'pt it. They knew dashed well I would not accept it when they moved it. A police magistrate or clerk of petty sessions ma~' livo in a hospitals district and be Pligiblc for appointment to a hospitals board. An hon. member said such an official is not a local resident. Apparently no one is a. local resident nnleee he is born and bred there and lms livcd there so long that he knows nothing else but his own district. A man hrts not to spend all his lifetime l<•ading a cow round to know anytl1ing about the district. It is not nocessarv for a man !J liYe in a district a.ll his life to have a full knowledge of it.

Mr. BRAXD: Is that an insult to the farmers?

T'ho SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AYil HOME AFF "\.IRS : ::\ o; the insult to the farmers is levelled by hon. members oppo­site, who say that any old type of hospit.al is good enough for them. (Opposition dis­sent.)

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A:'\D HO'VIE AFFAIRS: We have had to put up with this type of argument ever since this legislation has been introduced with the objective of providing decent hospital

accommodation for the residents in country districts. The meaner section of taxpayers­not the general 1·un of them-say, "1\o, it is going to cost me £1 ls. 11~d. more a year on my 3,000 or 4,000 acres, and I would rather see the people put up with any out­of-date. unsafe hospital rather than give them a decent one." As a matter of fact, the bulk of the people in the country dis­trict;;; arc waking up to tho po~1tion. That is why the Opposition numbers in this Par­liament are so small. That fact in itself shows that the results or this administration are extending out to the man on the land . who appreciates them.

The last one to cornplain about a crirnt, should be the Leader of the late Govorn­nlent, \~·ho mu~t be an acccs,.ory to it, bee ~tuse if it \vac,; a crime he had an oppor­tunity to change it, but he gave qui to a dif­ferent explanation to the country at the-1932 elections from the one he gave to-night.

Mr. BELL (Stanlr y) [9.55 p.m.]: I wish to deny the statement made by the Mini~ter that we advocated that any old hospital was good enough for the country. What we aro adYocating is a more equitable system of taxation and more equitable treatment of the people who have to pay for it. At the present time n:tensions are being made to the Esk hospital, but the money the local residents contribute is collected bv the shire council and paid to the hospitals, board. I reg-ret that tfw Minister has not seen fit to accept tlw amendment. but has misconstrued the rNnarks of hon. members on this side of the Committee. \Y,~ rcali"e that the Minister should have final controL but \Vle object to his having pow('r to appoint a chairman. A man's politics should not come into the ques­tion when ar:pointrncntR are being n1ade to a hospital connnittee. Tl1e meml1ers of tho J~sk llospitals Co1nmittco and ~hire couneil represent all shades of political opinion. The man the council appointed to the hospitals board is one '.rho advocates Labour's policy, but that ha' not interfer0d with his hospital adn1inif'tration. Even ho is kicking against the Act. I fpe 1 thn t. the interc't of the hospitals and the ratepayers wonlcl be better spn-cd if the members of the boards had :· bsolntc> freedom.

::1-lr. P. K. COPLEY (Kurilpa) r9.57 p.m.] : I do not desire to traverse the matters dealt with in connection with this amend­ment; bnt I wish to point out to hon. mem­bers that. as far as it is arithmetically pos­sible, the ?.Iinister has allowed the same· proportion of Government representative; tn loca 1 authority representatives.

Reference has been made to the appoint­ment of a public servant or some person who may be temporarily resident in a towr; to the position of chairman of the hosp1tal6 board. In most instances that have come to mv knowledge the appointment to the position of chairman has been made from the ranks of police magistrates or clerks of pottv se,eions. They arc men who have a part"icularly good training in relatio!' to th_e busino's v oriel. \Vhcn such a charrman Is appoinh'd he ( LlTii"S out his work _c ,Jn~ci(;n~ tiouslv, and he generally steers an. 1mpartlal cotm,c between the opposing sections and g-lvc.s impartial decisions on rn(ltiPr::; ihat come before him. Take the case of Mr. Cameron, formerly the police mag-istrate. ':t Innisfail. After his commission, Mr. R11lre was anpointocl. He took a very dangerous

Jh. P. ]{. Coplcy.]

1820 Hospitals Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Hospitals Bill.

situation into his hands and by intelligence and judicious handling cleared it up suc­cessfully.

1\Ir. i\1AIIER: ..c\ " yes¥no " xnan.

Mr. P. K. COPLEY: No. I should expect the actions of a police magistrate or clerk of pdty secsions to be consistent with c:overmncnt policy, but not what hon. mem­ber,, of the Opposition wot1ld expect of him, lOJ JH'r n·nt. for the man on the land. Merely because he lws 110t lived in the localitv, nor has his grandfather li,-ed there, it do~s not follow that he cannot look after the interests of the man on the land. The police magis­trate or clerk of pdty sessions has an interest in the disb·ict, and the attitude of the 11in1.--tcr on this or·ca~ion js ah:-o1utp}\· corl'ect. I fr•cl eertain the amendment would not be in the interests of the best administration·.

:\1r. EDWARDS (Tanango) [10.2 p.m.]: If a volic(~ rnagi trate or a ruan in a, :-jrnlla.r posibon was appoint.ed to a hospitals lJOard and became chairman. the position might be different. b!lt that does not always follow. As a matter of fact. the Minister knows of a ccrta in cho.irman who could not get on at all with the other members of the board. Dis"Plltion and difficult..,- ar038 almo::;t at once. That ctn llappcll bPcan$0 of the appoint­lnent of a rnan \vho has verv little interest in a ,district. Thoro \Vas al1othcr instance that occurred a short time ago of a chair­man of a board who did not get on at all satisfactorilY with the other mombei", .. There ic; nO cornplaiut a::: to thf' capabili­ties of thc'e men in their particular pro­fe~sions or c dli11g...::.. but y;c Hlust bP fait·. \Ye could not expert a man who has not his heart in the di,,trict to give the same atten­tion to the aclministrfttion of the board as one who is living- permanently therein. and has his heart and soul in it. As tbe Minister knov;s, a nmnber of public servants look fon1 ard to tran,frr and nerhal" promotion. and to leaYing tlwir districts as soon as they possibly can. It is not reasonable to sug-gest that a nu1n in that pcsition will giYe t-hr> same attention to tho administration of a board as one who is intcre•ted in the district, and who would be rc.spons1ble to the people.

'rho SECREHRY FOR HEALTH AJ\D Ho:viE AFF.\JRS: Do You n0t think a public servant wonlrl do his best in the administration, in his desire for promotion?

1\Ir. ED\Y \RDS: That does not always fc>llow. The Minister knows full well that his attc•mpt to carry ont Go\'ernment policy in reg-ard to hospitRl~ b0ards is giving- him no end of trouble. His statement that the Opnm,ition desire this amendment for the definite pur·>osp of g-C'tting control is not correct. As a matter of fact. in a number of thP conntrv clistriets politics does not 0nter at. nll into clr>rt1on: for local ,-,_uthori­tics. end it is possible that a supporter of the Go\'Nnmcnt would be appointed by a local authorih- to rPprcsent it on the hospitals board. \Ye should keep our minds fr~_·e fron1 confu~jon. There cnn be too much of this political business.

The SECRnARY FOR HEALTH AKD Ho:liE A FF unc::. : Then_ are a nun1 ber of n1cn not assr··iated '"ith tho Labour Party who repre­sent th0 Goyernment on these boards.

Mr. EDW ARDS: I am surprised the hon. gentleman admitting that.

[Mr. P. K. Copley.

to hear He will

be getting into trouble with the hon. mem­bers sitting behind him! However, I give the hon. gentleman credit for doing that. There is a need for men with business abilitv on those boards, and I ask the Minister a question and I hope he will be fair enough to answer it correctly. Would he like to haYe his business managed by a number of t.ltose whom he has himself appointed to ho-pitals boards .

The SECRETARY AFFAIHS : This 1s am not going to n1anagc.

FOR HEALTH AND HOME my only business and I give that to anybody to

2\Ir. ED\YA RDS: I am sure the lton. g-c•ntlc!nan i;; ans\Ycrlug that qur~tion cor­]·ectly. (Opposition laughter.) I am sure, also. that he knows tha.t no man w1th C'X!H'riC'ncc would hand over his busincs::> wllcro tlH'rc \\as no possibil-it:v of rnaking it a success. therefore the Opposition arc merclv asking that, the people who arc interc-~.trd in a district should gf't ~rrcatcr 1·eprosentation than at prcsPnt. The ::'-lini~t~r has made it V(~l'.Y l)lain to-night that thrs Bill is n1crelv the beginning, and he look~ to the shire ~~ouncil-, to take control of ho~­r,ital~ SOlllC da.v. If that ls SO, he should ~:rive thcn1 greater rC'}reseHtatjon HOW than they haYc.

Queetion-'' That the words proposed to be nmittrd from cl;wsc 13 (.111'. J[ahrr's amend­m nlf) Hta.nd part of the clause "~put; a nU the Committee divided.--

AYES, 29.

i\fr. Bra~sington Mr. Hi slop Drown Hynes Bu1cock Jesson Clark Kane Conroy Keogh Cooper Larcombe Copley, P. K. M ann Da"h M cLean Duggan 1\'!ullan Dunstan Smith l<'oley \Vellington Gair Gledson Tellers: Hanlon Hilt on I-:Iayes Williams, T. L. Healy

I\OES, 12.

Mr. Bell Mr. Nicklin Brand Plunkett Daniel Walker Mnher Maxwcll Tellers: Moo re Clayton Muller Edwards

PAIRR.

AYES. Nags.

Mr. o·Keefe lVIr. Deacon Stop ford Russell Collins Kiwmo

Uesohecl in the affinn~Jivo

T!w House re;;umcd.

The CHAIRoi\J\ reported progrc ·s and asked kaYe to sit again.

Rcmmption of Committee made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

The Honse adjourned at 10.14 p.m.