Download pdf - The Trauma Therapy Podcast Episode 2: Linda Curran, BCPC .... Curran... · The Trauma Therapy Podcast Episode 2: Linda Curran, BCPC, LPC, CACD GM: All right. Welcome to the Trauma

The Trauma Therapy Podcast Episode 2: Linda Curran, BCPC, LPC, CACD

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GM: All right. Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name’s Guy Macpherson, and this is a podcast where we interview amazing trauma therapists, individuals who are masters in their field, and really people who are making a difference. If you’re a trauma therapist, or if you’re a therapist just interested in learning about trauma therapy, this is the place for you. I’m so excited to introduce my guest today, Linda Curran, and, Linda, are you ready to do this?

LC: I’m here, Guy.

GM: Okay. So Linda Curran is a trauma specialist; she’s a veteran clinician, sought-after national trainer, best-selling author on trauma, and a film producer. Linda holds advanced degrees in both Clinical Psychology and Public Health; she’s a Board Certified Licensed Professional Counselor, Certified Addiction Counselor Diplomat, Certified Co-Occurring Professional Diplomat, Certified Gestalt Therapist, Certified --

LC: Good Lord, that’s enough!

GM: That’s enough, okay. [Laughs.] I just want to say that you’re author of two books, Trauma Competency: A Clinician’s Guide, and also 101 Trauma-Informed Interventions. All right. So I’ve shared a little bit about you, Linda, and I just want you to share with our listeners a little bit about yourself, maybe some more personal information so we can just get an idea of who you are.

LC: Well, let’s see. I just got a new dog; I’m very excited about that; her name’s

Margaret. I named her after one of the nuns in school because she looks like

she’s wearing a habit. I, you said I’m an author and a trauma specialist -- the

thing that I am actually most proud of is the website that I put together. And I

didn’t let you get to that part, but the website that I put together is very similar to

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what you’re doing. It really is bringing together a whole bunch of resources for

people who are doing this work -- you and I both know this work is -- it is as

fulfilling as it is draining at times -- so there’s resources for both clients and

clinicians on there, and I would really like people to go there. It’s

www.trauma101.com. You don’t have to buy anything, there’s just tons of

resources for people; and that’s really one thing I want people to know.

I got into -- I know you’re going to ask me why I got into this field but I’m going to

tell you -- I didn’t choose this field, really. I backed into the field. I tried like hell not

to be in this field, because it meant that I had to go to therapy. So when I went to

therapy because I was in grad school then I discovered that, oh, trauma wasn’t

just about Holocaust or veterans, trauma was a really big thing, and it was in my

life, like, all over the place in my life, but the really sad part is -- most people have

what I have, you know. So there’s not, probably -- I would say the lucky

percentage of people who have had secure attachments and really have had

[the] kind of life where they build resiliency rather than been overwhelmed; but

when I started looking at trauma and worked in community mental health, it was

like, oh, well the problem is early childhood trauma. Adverse childhood

experiences in childhood is what everybody has in common, that needs to be in

therapy, or--or seems to end up in community mental health.

GM: Okay, great. Yeah, we are definitely going to dive into the website, which is phenomenal. I was--been looking over that for the past couple of weeks. So to get off on the right foot here, we start off with a quote. Something that -- a quote, or a mantra that’s inspired you throughout your life; it could be something that’s impacted you professionally or personally. What do you have?

LC: Well, I have two of them. The one I have, it’s -- I actually put it in the book 101

Trauma-Informed Interventions because -- I don’t know who wrote it; and I would

like somebody to step up and say they wrote it. It is -- it was probably the most

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touching thing I ever read. I read it in somebody’s office, and it was anonymous,

nobody had taken credit for the quote. But here it is; it’s long:

They are survivors. If you don’t have respect for their strength, you can’t be of any help. It’s a privilege that they let you in --

It makes me cry, by the way, so maybe I should let you read it.

GM: No, go ahead.

LC: [Sighs.] Okay.

It’s a privilege that they let you in; there’s no reason they should trust you. None. You can’t know their terror; it’s your worst nightmare come true, a nightmare from which you can never awaken. It’s unrelenting; there has been no safety -- no one, no time, nothing. All was tainted. Hope was obliterated time and time again. That they are in our office is in itself a supreme act of valor.

Okay, I’ve regained composure.

GM: Wow. Okay, and you had another one?

LC: Well, the other, yeah, the other one is more about my own narcissism. So the

other one is, for me it was very, very touching. It’s a William Blake quote that; I--I

finally got it when I was doing my own personal therapy. It’s -- “And we are put

on earth a little space that we may learn to bear the beams of love.”

GM: Okay. Thank you so much. So, obviously that first one: let’s take that first one, if you don’t mind. I mean that is so profound and so -- just incredibly touching. I mean, you’re talking about privilege, and you’re talking about valor -- Let’s break that down a little. Where has that come in in your life? How has that impacted you individually, personally?

LC: Well, I -- You know I think that I was doing -- I went to Gestalt training, which is a

three-year program after grad school, and I went there not for professional

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reasons. I went there because I knew a few people that were Gestalt therapists,

and I thought that they, you know, they got something that I didn’t get? So when

I was there -- I think, I’m trying to put it; I’m trying to get better words for it,

though. When I was in Gestalt training, what I learned was -- in order to be a

good professional, I had to -- I had to be a better person. And sitting with clients,

I get that same feeling, you know? It’s like the reason that I do so much training

or the reason that it’s important for me to do my own personal work is because

the people sitting in front of me, they deserve that. They -- they don’t deserve

me to stay, in, you know, like in my narcissism or me to stay in my pathology

because it’s easier for them--for me to project the anxiety and let them carry it,

you know, any of the things that would be boundary issues or any of those things,

rather than let the client hold it. Be very clear on what’s mine, what’s relational,

and what’s the client’s. So I think that basically, it’s a responsibility to the client.

Does that make sense to you?

GM: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. It’s -- you know, it’s interesting when we -- when I started [laughs] this podcast out, I was not going to ask individuals about their trauma experience and in a sense, it’s almost inescapable. I mean, what you’ve shared, you know, with your first quote, I think is so personal, and it’s so moving. And now to hear you bringing -- talking about how you bring that into the therapy office is -- really clearly speaks to how challenging and demanding, but what a privilege this work is. So I really want to thank you for that.

LC: You know, absolutely a privilege.

GM: So this kind of -- you know, you started talking about the therapy office now, and, it kind of leads us right into the next question, which is -- and you said you kind of backed into this field of, well, trauma -- but let’s kind of move back a little and just talk about psychology in general. You know, trauma therapy is challenging. Our listeners are aware of that; you’ve

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addressed that; but this focus here is on your journey as a trauma therapist: your struggles, your influences. Share with us how you got into the broad field of psychology in general, and then we’re going to segue into trauma.

LC: Well -- I don’t know -- I think everybody -- well, every girl that I grew up with, we

all thought we wanted to be psychologists, like because wouldn’t it be cool to just

sit and talk for a living? That was like one of those things that it was like, that’s

an ideal career for--for teenage girls? Like my daughter is eighteen and that’s

what she’s going to do too, because I think that’s the -- I don’t --- I think that’s just

the way that we idealize the profession, as saying, “oh, you know, it’s just going

to be so great.” But I actually went for psychology -- like, when I say I backed

into it, I didn’t make a decision. I took two master’s [degrees] at the same time,

so I was thinking public health, like for outcome measures and stuff like that. I

worked in a hospital for twenty years. And then I thought, well, all right, I’m not

committing to either one of these things and I think that’s all part -- I don’t want to

keep saying the word “pathology” -- but I think it’s all part of, you know, okay, I

don’t -- like I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up, but I don’t want to

commit to anything, because what does it say about me?

But, when I decided, I really decided to go, you know, full into it. I thought, oh,

cognitive behavioral therapy, this is it. Like, I can wrap my head around this,

these automatic -- I get automatic thoughts, I get how to do all these procedures,

and, the funny part is, as soon as I started working with clients, they were not

nearly as impressed as my classmates at how good I was at this, you know?

Because everybody that I saw -- you know, they -- cognitive behavioral therapy,

it’s limited in its usefulness with traumatized people. I’m not saying it’s not good.

It’s fabulous, right, and it’s a good starting point, but it really is--it really is a

starting point.

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And so I thought, I could do this, this is really not too bad; and like I said, then I

met some Gestalt therapist that had something that I didn’t have, and what they

had was access to their body and their emotions. And that was, “Oh, what the

hell is this?” You know? So, it’s like, they, I watched the director of the Gestalt

Institute do some work with a traumatized woman and literally -- I’m not this

“woo-woo” kind of person, but -- I--I saw the energy change, and I saw the

woman transform in front of me, like I saw the energy come from her body, and I

really mean that, move out, she did, like -- Mary Lou Schack is the woman, she

got up and she did this demonstration where you push against hands, and it

really is, it’s about getting in touch with stability in your core and stuff like that.

But, the woman just started shaking and shaking, and [it] kind of brings [to mind]

like Peter Levine’s work; but she kind of started shaking and you could see the

release of energy and her whole body changed and her whole face softened and

I thought, these people know something I don’t know, right? And it was terrifying,

right? But I thought, that’s what I want, and so going into the -- going into Gestalt

Therapy Institute, I was very, very blessed, because the three directors are--

were--the most fabulous teachers I ever had, and I had a really good class, and

mostly I was at my growth edge the whole time. But there were some other

people that were working and I really got to do a lot of work vicariously through

them, and one of the lessons that, for me, that I didn’t have to get directly was,

people who have a need to feel special have never been seen. And it just -- it

was just so touching to me because that really is, when you think of people with

avoidant, you know, like the attachment systems of being avoidant or dismissive

of relationships; some people call it the narcissistic wound, but that’s what it is.

It’s that, no, [they] never have been seen, so [they] have to feel special. So I saw

all of that work being done, -- I did my work; I’m still – you know, I still do my

work, but it was really, that was, I was really very blessed to have a great group

of people around me that were at their growth edge as well.

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GM: Yeah, that sounds like an amazing experience, and I’ll have the link up for that in the show notes, and people can read--get to those show notes by going to westcoasttraumaproject.com and just hitting on the “Podcast” tab, and Linda, your interview will pop right up and we’ll have a whole list of show notes there. I’ll include that--a link for Gestalt, and -- Mary Lou Schack was her name?

LC: Yeah. Mary Lou Schack, Phil Lichtenberg, and David Henrich, they were the

directors at the time. Just, I can’t say enough good things about them, because I

wouldn’t be in the field without them.

GM: Okay. So there were kind of sprinklings of interest of trauma in that discussion you just had there. So talk to us now about how you kind of moved into this --

LC: Well, it’s the same story, because --

GM: Okay.

LC: Because Mary Schack is the -- she’s a Gestalt therapist, she’s a trainer, but she’s

also a trauma specialist.

GM: Okay.

LC: So, Mary Lou Schack was – became a supervisor of mine for some time, and

basically just, I -- like a sponge, you know? I got everything that I could take from

her and she’s as generous as can be. So that was really where -- I went to her

and I said, Mary Lou, this is what I’m doing; and she said, “Well you know, Linn,

Gestalt training is absolutely essential for this,” and she said, “You really want to

go get trained in EMDR.”

So I went to get trained in EMDR. I went for Level 1 training, and I came back,

and like I said, my internship was in community mental health. So when I came

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back, what I did was re-traumatize, I would say, more than two hand-- about two

handfuls of people. Not irrevocably, all right? So I mean, I was able to do the

repair work. But the problem was, and we’ll get the -- it’s one of the big errors

that everybody makes -- it’s too much too soon for trauma clients -- but for me, it

was one of those things where it was -- well, you’re kind of in a Catch-22

because I come back from Level 1 training and I have to do fifty EMDR sessions

on single incident trauma with twenty-five clients; and -- it’s hilarious right? And, I

mean, every time I do a training I say the same thing, I’m sure people are sick to

death of hearing it, but it’s, you know, where are you going to find single-incident

trauma within a community mental health setting? It’s hilarious. So, like I said, I

did EMDR for processing trauma on people who were nowhere near ready to

process trauma, you know? Because I thought that’s what I had to do. I went

back to Mary Lou and said, okay, I’m really -- I’m doing some damage here, so

we did a lot of repair work, and I started reading a lot about Laurel Parnell’s work,

and on--people who were--on Debbie Corn and people who were doing a lot of

the resourcing, first. So, all of that, Belleruth Naparstek, guided imagery,

anything that would be stabilizing. So we did a whole -- learned a lot of the

stabilization stuff in community mental health because it was just absolutely

essential to do so.

But that really, that probably is where I got the interest in trauma, just from Mary

Lou and from being in community mental health. Like I said, what they had in

common was early childhood trauma. So it was like, well this is not only

interesting; I imagine I have to know something about this. So all of the big

names of trauma, I read their books and saw their stuff and the big deal that I

saw, was, it wasn’t really pulled together very well. Because there’s so much

brilliance out there in the field, and it’s just, people follow one or two people and

that’s it. And hope -- my hope -- is that we get a lot of these resources together

so that we don’t have to reinvent the wheel every time we want to learn

something.

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GM: Right, great, yeah, thanks for sharing that kind of early error. That definitely was the next topic we were going to talk about. What would you say -- and I think maybe you kind of touched upon it, though -- but what did you learn from that? Basically, that, the importance of resourcing, and stabilization? What would you say was your major takeaway from that early error, clinical error?

LC: Oh, yeah. And I, Guy, I did a series called “Trauma Treatment” with eight of the

bigger names in trauma, and everybody had the same answer, which was “too

much too soon.” If there were other answers -- they were, probably for me, it

was around boundaries, right, boundaries would be the big -- one of the big -- I

guess clinical--I want to say clinical mistakes. But you’re going to have Janina

Fisher on, and Janina Fisher said something I thought was just -- everybody

should hear it. She said, “I am the clinical instructor and I am the supervisor and

I would much rather have a clinician with a warm heart that that needs work on

boundaries than have some--than have somebody with a cold heart and good

boundaries.” Because it’s [laughs] so much easier to develop good boundaries

than it is to open your heart.

GM: Right, right. Awesome. Thanks for saying. Yeah, Janina is coming on, I was on a consultation group with her and she is just--she’s phenomenal, obviously. But thanks for sharing that. So this kind of brings us back to, really, one of my favorite questions, if not my favorite question. And, you know we talked about the challenges of the specialization, but to me; it’s really important that we know what our “why” is, you know? And, I think it can be different: the reasons why we get into this field as opposed to why we keep doing this. What drives us in this very challenging profession on a day-to-day basis? So I’m going to put that to you: What keeps you going? What’s your “why” for doing this on a day-to-day basis, Linda?

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LC: Because it is the most fascinating field in the world.

GM: [Laughs.]

LC: I’m serious. You don’t have to imagine it because you do it, but really, it’s a

miracle-laden career. It really is the only way to describe it. I mean, to see the

resiliency in the human spirit, unmitigated courage, relentless hope. Just

watching people heal, having their lives transformed. Not just people’s lives,

generations. You know, generations of lives being transformed because people

choose to do their work. They understand that they have a responsibility to other

people. They come in, it’s just--What, what else would you want to do? I just,

that’s --

GM: Could you share a specific incident -- obviously without mentioning names -- but something that really drove that home for you? Drove that realization that this is the most amazing field in the world, where resiliency, courage, and, and generations are being impacted and affected, and in a positive way?

LC: Well, I mean, I could say it for -- you know, I’ve seen many, many clients and I’ve

seen people with burdens of trauma unbelievable to me. You know, just like, how

much pain, how much suffering, that they had done in their life and how much

abuse and how much neglect and just what a horror show that was their life. And

these are people that are good parents, who are positive members of the

community; they become sports coaches, teachers, and they do really, really

well. It’s kind of inexplicable; like, how do you explain it? That’s what I mean: it’s

just about courage. You know? It’s about people saying okay, they’re like --

when I said “unrelenting hope,” I mean, I have unrelenting hope, but then, it isn’t,

they say hope’s a four-letter word. It isn’t. Because as long as we’re alive, you

know, we can change. The part that is fascinating isn’t -- I don’t want to say, it

sounds harsh -- but it isn’t just working with people, but it’s understanding the

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brain science behind it, of why it’s possible. People’s brains are being rewired,

their bodies are being affected by the therapy that we do, by the therapy that they

do. We facilitate the healing but all the work is -- I don’t want to say that all the

work is just done just by that person and I’m just sitting there, but I mean the hard

work is--is being vulnerable. And that is not my position as a clinician. I mean,

I’m never more vulnerable than the client because of the chair, you know? So it’s

like -- that is just, to me, for somebody to say, “You hurt my feelings.” Think

about that. In our -- not in our field, but in our world, like, that’s unheard of. “You

hurt my feelings.” No, you wouldn’t want to be seen as vulnerable. And these

people come in and lay bare their soul. Like, that’s -- there’s no words for that.

That is -- that’s a miracle.

GM: That is, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that, and I think it really speaks to this profession and really speaks to the work you’re doing too. You know, one of--one of the things that I want to do here is really tease out the journeys of the people I’m talking to like yourself. And you’ve just shared some amazing things so far. It’s easy to read a book, it’s easy to go to a workshop, but there are the different qualities in the therapy room, I think, that distinguishes different therapists. What is it about you, do you feel, that allows you to do the work you do, that allows you to engage with your clients, and that has allowed you to get to where you are?

LC: [Pause.] “What is it about me that allows me to” -- Say it a different way for me.

GM: What is the special quality, that unique quality, that you feel you have, that allows you to do this work on the level that you do it? Is it that vulnerability you were talking about?

LC: Well, that -- I can identify, absolutely, I can identify with a client’s vulnerability. I

can absolutely identify -- I mean, I’m not just a therapist; you know, I’m a client. I

mean, we all are -- if you’re a clinician and you’ve never been a client, you’re a

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terrible clinician. Just hear that. That’s out there; I said it. I meant it! And I

always tell people that if you’re a therapist that doesn’t have issues, you’re the

most dangerous person in the room, right? So it’s like -- to be able to recognize

what my characterological flaws are, right, and accept that they’re mine? Like

that, I guess, that’s part of what I can do. But I don’t know that it’s anything

special. I don’t know that I have any special quality; I think what I do have is, I

understand what a privilege it is to sit in this seat.

GM: Okay.

LC: And I think that’s probably it. And I do think that’s teachable. I mean, I do think

-- I think that’s teachable; it has to be to be teachable because it’s like, how do

you -- I always say, “How do you not know that?” -- you know? How do you not

realize what that chair comes with? There’s a power differential built into the

chair, and our job as clinicians is to level that as much as possible but it’s never

going to be leveled because of the essence of the work. The essence of the

work is the client is more vulnerable, you know? And they are [INAUDIBLE:

00:24:51], and they are doing the hard things.

GM: Do you think that privilege of -- that comes with the chair, that comes with the work in a sense -- obviously it’s similar in quote/unquote “regular therapy.” Is there a difference in trauma therapy, do you think, when you’re working with someone who’s been traumatized? Is there a different understanding that has to be had by the clinician? Is there a different --

LC: There is something -- there is something about [the] knowledge base for this. So

I mean, to be able -- like, people call it intuition, but I don’t think it’s intuition until

-- as much as it is you learn – you know what you’re looking for in people’s body

posture, in their face, in the micro-movements of their face. You understand

what--what they’re connected to. I mean, I’m talking about this anatomically and

physiologically, all of that, you understand what’s happening. That becomes

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intuitive. People say like, “I’ve always been good at this,” or “I have a sense

about me; people open to me,” those kinds of things. I understand that, but

there’s also a honing of these skills that people go, “Oh, you’re a natural at it,”

and it isn’t -- you may be naturally inclined to be good at it but you have to

develop those skills. And those skills are, like I said, they’re teachable.

If you’re asking what it is in me that makes me -- makes it easy to identify with

clients, it’s not just being a client -- I mean, I have no doubt that most of your

listeners are in this field, if they’re clinicians, they’re in the field to heal

themselves or to heal the family; at least that’s why they got into it. I mean, I

make no secret of the fact that I’m an alcoholic, I grew up in an alcoholic

household; there was-- there was trauma all around me, trauma and chaos all

around me, and that is -- I mean, I think that’s part and parcel of being able to

identify with somebody. But that really - but that doesn’t give me – like, I don’t

really understand somebody’s unique and individual experience because I’ve had

something similar. I can identify; I know what pain is, you know? But I think

there’s more to it than just saying, “Oh, I’ve always been good at this.” It’s, “Okay,

I may be good at this, but there are a lot of things I need to know to make me

better at this because I owe it to the client to do that.”

GM: Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. Again,, this working with clients in this setting of trauma can be so draining, as you said at the top. And I think, to a certain degree, self-care in our profession is a word that is very amorphous. I think it’s kind of the elephant in the room, too. But what do you do to care for yourself as you do--as you do this work? Do you do anything?

LC: Oh, well, I wouldn’t be in this field if I didn’t, right? I mean, I’d be washed out

long ago. Part of -- I have to say that part of what makes me a good clinician is --

I’ll give you an analogy: when I worked in community mental health, I had a lunch

box. It was really big, and I usually had, like, three cheese sandwiches in it,

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some fruit and some vegetables and some candy and whatever. And it was

nothing that was bad for anybody. But I always opened it up, and there was

always plenty for me and plenty for anybody else, right? And that really is -- I

mean, that’s -- I mean, I am so well resourced. I pride myself on how well

resourced I am, and I mean that in all those ways. I make sure that that happens

when you -- those things about self-care.

When I was in community mental health listening to stories, I think in probably

one day, I heard three of the most violent rape stories that I had ever heard, and I

remember being overwhelmed for days. I only worked three days a week, so I

remember that whole weekend being just completely -- just couldn’t understand

why I was so, not just drained, but I was kind of paralyzed. And what it was – my

empathy, my -- people talk about “empathy dial” -- Emma Rothschild talks about

“up and down “-- but, I mean, my empathy dial -- like, I was really seeing things

as first person shooter, if you know what I mean. Like when I was hearing these

stories it was coming in as first person, and part of what was – part of the skill of

being therapist is not being detached but being able to dial back that empathy

and really put ourselves in a third person, so we are not--we’re not traumatized or

re-traumatized, because that’s not really so helpful for a client. I used to -- I liken

it to when I was in the emergency room, it wasn’t really helpful for me to be

crying with the family members when my job was to intubate somebody and do

CPR. My job was -- I had to be okay to do what I needed to do.

And I think that to be able to do what you need to in this field, for me, I mean,

what I do, I need to--I need to have support around me all the time, I need to be

able to talk to somebody about clinical stuff. I was--I’ve been in therapy more

often than not in my adult life; you know, at different times for different things. I

meditate daily, I do a lot of imagery work, I have the Alpha-Stim. I walk every day

with my sister, and I think walking is probably one of the best things you can do --

I mean, talking about alternating bilateral stim[ulation] -- and aerobic exercise,

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and getting air, and just getting away from what you need to get away from, all of

those things I do. Take yoga -- You know, like, it may even sound a bit self-

indulgent, but it isn’t. I mean, all those things are like, what I put in the lunch box

when I went to community mental health, you know? I have them here; when I

need them, they’re there; and if anybody else needs them, they can use them.

GM: Wow, I’m pretty impressed [laughs], I mean, that’s a lot, and that’s awesome. I mean, I’m just excited to hear that. So, I mean, one of the things that kind of popped out to me that you said was the way you’ve learned to do the therapy in and of itself is a kind of resourcing for yourself, right? So this not adapting--or adopting the first-person-shooter point of view but rather a third person, that in and of itself is a self-care tool.

LC: Yeah, it’s--it’s a distancing, without – not--it’s nothing about saying, “I am not

going to be empathic,” it’s more about --

GM: Got it. Yup.

LC: It’s more about; I need to be resourced enough. I don’t need to be traumatized to

understand this person’s trauma, right?

GM: Right.

LC: I have enough to refer back to that I don’t have to be in this story. Not that I’m

not listening to the story -- don’t hear that, you know? It’s that I’m hearing the

story, as this person’s perception of their life events and this is the way they took

in the information and this is how it’s affected them.

GM: Yeah. That came through--that came through, definitely; so I think we definitely got that. So that brings us to what’s going on now. And I know you talked about the website. I kind of want to spend some time to talk

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about that, because that is phenomenal. And that can be reached at trauma101.com, integrative trauma treatment. And before we start, Linda, I just want to say that I’m from the East Coast --

LC: Where did you --

GM: We were talking about this before we started, a little. [I’m] originally from New York, but I studied tae kwon do in Havertown, P-A, [laughter] a long time ago, so that used to be kind of my quote/unquote “stomping ground.” Not really, but I loved --

LC: Neighbor?

GM: Yeah, definitely neighbor. But another kind of coincidence: about six, maybe six months ago, I was looking for a book. I was looking for a trauma book. And I went on Amazon[.com] and I actually got your book, Trauma Competency: A Clinician’s Guide, and it is--it’s phenomenal. I mean, it really is. And I’m going to let you talk about the website, and then we can get into the books. But share with us what you’re really excited about. What’s going on for you now that has really got you going?

LC: Well, [laughs] I thought I’d tell what I should be doing and I’m struggling to do. I

have a contract with Norton to write a book called Clinician Playbook, Client

Workbook, which is about -- obviously it’s about trauma, but it’s kind of working

with all the different varieties, and when I say varieties, I mean the burden of

trauma. So whether it be post-traumatic stress disorder, single incident, or

complex PTSD, or DESNOS [Disorders of Extreme Stress Not Otherwise

Specified]; or any of the personality disorders which I really just think of as just

trauma, early and often. Like, treatment algorithms -- like, protocols for them.

And I don’t mean, like, here’s a cake book for how you do it; I would never think

that that is doable. But I’m trying to give people an idea of how to assess clients.

You know, when you assess them, what the information means, how to interpret

the information, and then how to go about a treatment plan for each of those,

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http://www.trauma101.com


right? And I’m very excited about it, because it’ll be a shared resource for both

client and clinician. And we don’t have that. I don’t see that in -- when I was

asked to write the book, I said to the woman, “Andrea, I don’t see a gap in the

literature when I’m looking at -- you know, I’m looking at your authors, I don’t see

a gap in the literature.” And then when I thought about it, I thought, you know

what is missing? There is no--there is no resource where you go, okay, I have --

here’s a playbook for you, the client, and you do -- you know, a workbook for you,

the client: you do the work in here; I know I have all the theory here and I have

the assessments and why we’re doing it and I have what I need and you have

what you need, but they’re the same, right? So we’re sharing the same

resource. So that’s what -- I’m excited about that. It’s due in January, so I

imagine it’ll be out sometime after that.

I’m also very excited about something that I haven’t started yet but I just put the

feelers out for. You know, trauma and addiction are about 90 percent correlated,

and, you -- if, people don’t know that, the numbers say 80 to 90 percent. I have

yet to see [laughs] -- I have yet to see it lower than that. But there’s a lot of

people that, right now, when you talk about trauma, addiction is kind of just seen

as kind of seen as a symptom; whether it be substance, or a behavior, it’s kind of

seen as symptom, of adverse childhood experiences and inability to self-soothe,

inability to regulate emotions, those kind of things. So I want to do my next

project on trauma and addiction. And what I think -- who I think I would like to

have is -- I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Gabor Maté --

GM: Oh yeah.

LC: Love him; he’s --

GM: Yeah, he’s phenomenal.

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LC: Yeah, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and -- He’s a very -- he’s Canadian, so

he’s nice, but you can’t hold that against him, right?

GM: [Laughs]

LC: And I think that he worked -- we had some--a woman named Vikki Reynolds

come down and talk to us when we had an agency at one point and they worked

together up there in Vancouver. He’s a psychiatrist. So I’d like him, and there’s a

woman here in your old stomping grounds at the University of Pennsylvania

named Anna Childress, and then I’d like Claudia Black and Daniel Amen; and I

think we’re going to get together. I’ll have commentary from Dr. Van der Kolk,

and hopefully Peter Levine and Stephen Porges as well. But I really would like to

see that done and done well and bring together the ACE study, the Adverse

Childhood Experiences study. [I] would love to see [that], you know, with either

[Robert F.] Anda or [Vincent J.] Felitti. I have a clinical crush on both Dr. Felitti

and on Dr. Porges, but…knows about it. So that’s really, so that’s what I’m

excited about. Like I said, the website’s been up for a while, and I’m very happy

to see just how many people are using it. Like I said, it doesn’t cost anything.

You just have to sign in, and there’s just tons of resources. The resource section

for clients, I think it’s really helpful for people who are looking for a clinician or

looking to start some sort of therapy with people who are informed. At least -- I

mean, informed; if not sensitive to trauma; if not specialized in it.

GM: Yeah, the resource section in and of itself is just jam-packed. That really struck me when I was going through this. You know, something that also struck me in hearing about your latest project: there seems to be this sense of joining that you’re trying to bring. You’re trying to bring this collaboration between the client and the clinician in these projects you’re putting together. Would you say that’s accurate? Especially with this, the last book you’re talking about, right?

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LC: Um, yeah! Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it is ridiculous to--to have a client

believe that we’re doing something to them or that we know more than they do

about them. You know? I mean, like when I say hilarious, I truly mean that. I

mean, how on earth could we purport to know more than they know about them

than they know about themselves? We know some things, and they know more.

So I think that how we present ourselves as -- we do have skills, and we do have

technologies or modalities that are helpful, that may be helpful for you. But I got

to know you, you know? And you know you.

GM: Sure. And that last project you were talking about -- what form is that, is that a book? Is that a --

LC: No, I want to -- kind of like that video series, have some interviews. But then -- I

have a new DVD coming out called EMDR Step-by-Step, which is the same kind

of thing where a lot - where there’s also client demonstrations, so this would be

the same kind of thing where we’d have all the addiction and the also the

adverse childhood experiences, all of the trauma stuff and the addiction stuff and

then show how we work with it -- so, doing client demonstrations. And what I

mean by that is -- there’s a guy called Lane Pederson, who is in Minnesota; he’s

a friend. He’s one of the people who I think is very well liked; and then among

the people who are very fundamentalist towards DBT, not very well liked. But

he’s taken DBT and tried to make it accessible to everybody. I think we have

some data right now that suggests that DBT skills training is what makes the

difference, that’s where -- that’s what it’s showing in the research. I’ve heard

Marsha Linehan talk about that, that it is the skill. So to be able to bring the skills

to people and not have to charge $125 a session, I think, is a really -- I think

that’s an admirable thing to do. So I’m going out to Minnesota to do a 2-day with

him, and I think what we’ll do is try to put together how you use these dialectical

behavioral skills, which could be called CBT skills with mindfulness, or recovery

skills, including mindfulness, could be called anything. But really how you get in

Stage 1 of stabilization and safety; how you can use these things without -- I’m

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going say -- without it being such a comprehensive program? Because we have

maybe two of them here in all of the Philadelphia area, right, where people do, do

quote/unquote “DBT,” and so like other people think that like they can’t use these

skills. And the skills, they’re not--they’re not Marsha Linehan’s skills, right? I

mean, they’re CBT skills, right, with mindfulness infused; so I think that to be able

to teach that to everybody is a good thing. I’m not one for keep--for saying,

“Okay, I put my name on this and now nobody else can play.”

GM: Right. I think on your website you have uh, an excerpt from -- a video excerpt from - is it - Michenbaum [sic]?

LC: Meichenbaum?

GM: Meichenbaum, pardon. Yeah. And I think he says that. He says, “You know, we’re helping people. We’re not superstars.” We’re not just incredible or amazing people doing amazing things; we’re helping people -- he brought it down to the ground, to the earth, and I hear that a lot about what you’re saying, and I really appreciate that too.

LC: Yeah, just being able to say that -- when he says something like, “God didn’t put

you on this earth to heal every type of trauma, you know, that is imaginable.”

Like, have a critical eye; there’s a lot of things that are helpful, but there is no

magic--there’s no bullet, you know? And so any way that works for this client

who’s sitting in front of me, what works for this client, let’s use it. That means you

have to have a real big toolbox. You have to have a lot of things in it. And that’s

really one thing I admire about Dr. Van der Kolk is that he says that good

intentions and warm feelings do not substitute for becoming really good at what

you do. You know? And that for me is, like, you got to hear that. You know,

these are people’s lives in your hands. And I mean that. I’m not saying you’re in

charge of them, but I’m saying, you have people’s lives in your hands and you

better treat that with care.

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GM: Yeah. So a lot of the people who are going to be listening to this, who are listening to this, are interested in learning about trauma. Can you recommend two go-to books for them? Now obviously, your books are going to be --

LC: No, you don’t have to say about my books. I know who I’m going to recommend,

and --

GM: Okay.

LC: I’ll tell you why. Judy Herman’s Trauma and Recovery because it is the best

book in complex -- it was the first work, the seminal work in complex trauma,

right? Disorders of extreme stress. Okay, so she’s the first person to ever say,

“Hey, guess what? PTSD doesn’t fit everybody.” There’s a whole attachment

thing, there’s a whole -- what about months and years, what about all these

things that make PTSD different from complex PTSD. And so she’s the first

person to really put it in terms of, “this is a political issue.” So her, between her

and van der Kolk, um, they did tons of work with borderline personality disorder

and complex PTSD and I think that all -- their work is seminal. So her book,

everybody should read that. Anybody that’s in our field should read it, regardless

of the fact -- if they call themselves trauma-informed or not -- they should read it.

The other book -- I have a lot of trauma books, but I do want to push this one,

and I don’t know either one of these authors. It’s Amir Levine and Rachel Heller.

The book is called Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How it

Can Help You Find and Keep Love. Now, it’s for the general public, but it has all

of the research is in it, it’s just mentioned; and if you want to go the research, it’s

in the back. But I mean it’s for -- I just give it every client that I see. You know,

most -- I would say every client that I see comes in with insecure attachment or

disorganized attachment. Either organized or disorganized, but always insecure

when they start with me, I generally work with access to. So I give everybody

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that and I just think it is a fabulous jump-off point for people to start

understanding their template, the relational template that they started with and

just get a view on -- People will say to me, “I don’t want to go look at the past,”

you know, “Why do we have to go look at my childhood; I’m not sitting here and

talking about my childhood.” And I’d say, “Well you know, I wouldn’t talk about

anything, but if it bites you in the ass every day, it’s worth a mention,

right?” [Laughter] And so this is one of those ways people can say, “Oh, I can see

that in me, maybe there is something to this.”

GM: Got it, great. And those two books will be on the show notes page at westcoasttraumaproject.com, and you can hit “podcast.” Judith Herman’s book is obviously talked about all over the place as a seminal work --

LC: Right. Bessel van der Kolk’s book The Body Keeps the Score will be out this

month as well, and [I] can’t recommend that more. He has -- he edited his first

book, Traumatic Stress, and he hasn’t really put anything out since then because

he’s been doing the research and because he’s been applying all the theories,

because he’s been a clinician and a researcher; he’s a good scientist, so he

hasn’t had time to write. But this is the first book he has out in, God, forever.

GM: Oh, that’s coming out this month. LC: Yes.

GM: So we’ll definitely be looking forward to that as well. Okay. So now we’re kind of winding down. Let’s hear from you, Linda: best advice that you’ve ever had, and that could be personally, professionally; the best place to contact you; and then we’ll say goodbye.

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http://www.westcoasttraumaproject.com


LC: Okay, the best place to contact me is easier [laughs]: [email protected].

Okay? That’s the easy way. And the best advice I ever got -- do you want to

know -- you’re saying, in my life?

GM: Yes.

LC: Best advice I ever got?

GM: Yup.

LC: Hm. You know, I would have to say it’s the Serenity Prayer. You know?

GM: Yup.

LC: I’m pretty sure most people know it, but like, accepting the things you cannot

change and the wisdom to know the difference. To be able to -- there are certain

things that I can affect, certain things that I can’t affect, and those things just

need to be accepted. And once I accept -- once I accept where I am right now,

then change happens. It’s not -- there’s no striving. So I think that’s probably the

best advice.

GM: Awesome.

LC: Hey, can I ask you a question?

GM: Yeah, definitely.

LC: So you said that you want me to be the focus of this. But I mean, we haven’t met

before, and I talked about Emma Rothschild and she said that she had talked to

you, and I said that I wanted to know a little bit about you. I read about your

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brother, and I was wondering if you’d say just what it is that has you doing this

particular thing?

GM: Well, it’s -- that’s a loaded question. This particular thing, meaning this podcast?

LC: Yeah.

GM: Well, first of all, I’m in this field because there, I -- when you said the word “privilege,” that just resonates with me so profoundly. I -- It is such a privilege to be working in this field, to be working with individuals who have been traumatized, and especially with interpersonal violence, and to be able to work with an individual and experience that resiliency, as you talked about, and courage and to in some way to be able help that individual to move through that, to manage that, and to get to a point where they’re thriving is so inspiring for me. People who are doing this work are so inspiring to me. And what I want to do -- what I have found, is that a lot of clinicians do -- who aren’t trauma-informed, you use that phrase -- [those] who aren’t trauma-informed are not engaging in this arena at all. They’re not asking about trauma for a variety of reasons, and one of things I wanted to do with this podcast is to raise the awareness of trauma and also speak with individuals like yourself who are masters in their field, who are so inspiring; because I love talking to people like yourself, who just have done so much work, who are open, who are grounded, who are telling it like it is, and developed -- who have taken the time to master their craft, to master their field. That is amazing, and that’s what gets me going. So that’s kind of the short answer.

LC: Okay. I like it.

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GM: Yup. [Laughs]

LC: It works. Yeah, I feel very similarly. Even though that’s a hard word to say.

GM: Yeah. Well, Linda, it’s been such a pleasure talking with you. I mean, I really appreciate it, from the top, from the get-go, from that quote, I think you definitely had me going. It was -- it was very profound and touching, and I think you opened up a door to yourself and shared so much of your journey that I really appreciate. I just want to say thank you so much, and we’ll talk soon.

LC: Thank you very much, Guy. It was a pleasure to meet you.

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