1.The Tunku Tapes: Post-Merdeka blues - Part 1Last modified:Wednesday December 26, 4:52 pm10:41am, Wed: specialThe negotiations for Independence (Merdeka) started in 1955 and Malayabecame an independent country on Aug 31, 1957 with Tunku Abdul Rahman asprime minister. Singapore, Sarawak and Sabah joined the Malaysian merger in1963. However, Singapore left the federation two years later.Meanwhile, within the Malayan Chinese Association (MCA), there was factionalstrife. A faction emerged in 1957 around Dr Lim Chong Eu. In 1958, Lim wasvoted MCA president over Tan Cheng Lock. As the 1959 federal elections drewclose, Lim pressed for more seats against the 29 allocated by the AllianceNational Council. The Tunku replied by announcing that Umno would contestthe election without MCA. In the process, Lim resigned as MCA leader andonly MCA members acceptable to the Tunku appeared on the Alliance ticket forthe 1959 elections.K Das: As Merdeka got closer and closer, how did Singapore slip out of thisarrangement?Tunku: We got to work very closely with Singapore when we were formingMalaysia. After my press statement, Singapore requested to join us too. So(Lee) Kuan Yew represented Singapore, Halim Fuad, Tuan Stephens, and TunMustapha - they all came to work for Malaysia. They were holding meetingsand later on it was obvious that Malaysia had to be formed. The Britishterms were that Singapore could not be on its own but was free to joinMalaysia. So Kuan Yew accepted all the terms and it was only after he joinedMalaysia that he started to interfere.K Das: I was going back a bit earlier to 1955/1956 when Malaya was achievingMerdeka. At what point did they become separate, because before the war, wewere all under the British and Malaya included Singapore? How was it done -how did Singapore separate? At what year would that be? When the Merdekatalks began, why was Singapore not included?Tunku: Before Kuan Yew, there was no approach for independence. They werevery keen to join but I did not see that in David Marshall and Lim Yew Hock,they had a powerful enough leader to control Singapore.K Das: There were approaches? Wasnt the PAP (Peoples Action Party) itselfcontrolled by the communists for a while?Tunku: That is why the British were not keen to give them independence ontheir own. So they had to join us or carry on being a colony of Britain.That is why Kuan Yew decided to join us. After that he did everythingpossible to break away. That is where he has remained today, he is not a man

2. to be trusted.K Das: But T H Tan was always very suspicious?Tunku: .and (Tan) Siew Sin.K Das: How about (Tan) Cheng Lock?Tunku: He was an old man.K Das: How did he feel about Singapore?Tunku: He did not express his feelings very well. He was too old then -suffering from senility.K Das: Leong Yew Koh was also getting old?Tunku: He was pure Kuomintang so he actually wanted to join us. He was veryanti-communist.K Das: Why did H S Lee leave the Alliance? He left with (Lim) Chong Eu?Tunku: He left with Chong Eu, so I kicked them all out.K Das: In your book you mentioned that Chong Eu wanted to leave - he askedfor 40 seats. Is that correct?Tunku: Not 40, it was 32.K Das: 32?Tunku: We gave him 29.K Das: He asked for 32 ... there is a bit of argument over this. Some say heasked for 40.Tunku: There were only 104 seats. If I had given him anymore, I would havegot into trouble.K Das: They were all Malay seats?Tunku: So when he decided to break away, I said good luck, get out.K Das: But later on he came back and said he had made a mistake - what wasthe trouble? Was he having trouble with his young supporters?Tunku: He was not having trouble. He wanted to have a strong say in thegovernment. I said, "No, you can only have that number of seats, no more."He should have been satisfied with all that. I said, "We can work together 3. for the good of Malaya so long as we can get the country running well." Thatwas all that mattered to us. I was running it very well.Tunku as PMK Das: In those days, how did you have the time for films, sport..Tunku: I used to go and train the footballers myself, I rode and dideverything. I could never be quiet you know, I didnt know how to do that.Whatever time I had, I rode. You see, with my colleagues, we were workingtogether - I never interfered in their work, they did their own work andthen we would discuss all this during every Wednesday cabinet meeting. Afterthat, we would adjourn to lunch. There were some ministers like Aziz Ishakwho were out of control. He was minister of agriculture but what he did henever told us, he did on his own.K Das: What did he do?Tunku: He was minister of agriculture.K Das: And what were the things he did?Tunku: Everything! He was also head of the Co-operative Society. He woulduse Co-operative money to buy land when the co-operative society was toosmall and couldnt pay. For instance, the piece of land he bought from BrownEstate for more than a million dollars - in those days it was a lot ofmoney. But he did not get the money to pay and so I had to take it over,paid for it and made a Malay settlement there. That area is called BayanBaru.We had to pay for it and so I sold half the land to the Penang stategovernment. Chong Eu bought that and built all those housing estates for hisdevelopment plan. I had to sell half and then pay the other half. Thegovernment of Malaysia paid and settled all these people in Bayan Baru. Thatis the sort of things he did. Then he went and built a urea plant when hehad no money to pay for it and we had to take it over - he startedeverything well but he never followed up on them.K Das: Can you recall the circumstances under which Col (H S) Lee left thecabinet?Tunku: Yes I can recall it very well. The MCA had by that time come underthe leadership of Dr Lim Chong Eu and there were all the young Chinese bloodwho had taken over from Tun Tan Cheng Loke. It was then that H S Lee joinedthat gang. So these people, the young Chinese, all ambitious, power-mad,power-crazy posed a certain threat to the well-being of the Alliance.They came after I had taken the decision to give them 29 seats but they said 4. they wanted 32. So I told them I have given you more than enough - 29 seatsand half that number is from the Malay constituencies. I cannot do any morethan that. The Malays have been very patient with you people but now you arestill making demands. You get out. It was during this time that H S Lee gotinvolved with that gang. I do not know what they promised him. So I rang himup and told him to get out.K Das: So he joined Chong Eus party?Tunku: He was not in the MCA.K Das: So he joined the other side?Tunku: There was no other side. There was only one MCA. Therefore he was inthat.K Das: So he joined the young faction?Tunku: They took over the MCA.K Das: At this time Col H S Lee was the finance minister?Tunku: He was a senator. Yes, he was minister of finance.K Das: Then he left?Tunku: He left. I kicked him out.K Das: And you appointed Siew Sin (Tan Siew Sin)?Tunku: That is right. When I kicked him out, this new lot also got out. Ithen gave up my job and appointed Razak as PM and I went around the countrycampaigning. In the meantime MCA had a meeting at the Chinese Assembly Halland appointed their new officers with Siew Sin as its head.Happiest PM in 1959K Das: When you went on the campaign in 59?Tunku: You know I went completely - I retired. I did not go on leave. Iresigned. I did not get any pay and I did not have any money. That is why Iwas selling some of my houses again. When the new MCA was formed, I cameback to take over as PM again. Then the election followed - MCA lost theirseats. Only Chong Eu won his seat in Penang. All the others lost.K Das: In your campaign for Umno, what was your main campaign line?Tunku: To support Umno, take action against MCA. Only if the MCA found newleaders would we support them. 5. K Das: And before you resigned, you also had some problems with the Malayschoolteachers?Tunku: Oh, yes!K Das: What was that about?Tunku: They wanted better pay, they wanted to be treated on the same scaleas the English teachers.K Das: The same as the graduates?Tunku: Yes. I said, "You cant, because you are not qualified like theEnglish teachers...Your schooling is only up to a certain point in Malayvernacular schools. If you had gone on to higher levels like SeniorCambridge or what not, I can give you the same pay. But we have alreadyincreased your pay from what it was under the British."So they decided to boycott Umno, they left en masse.K Das: Was that one of the reasons why you went to campaign?Tunku: No.K Das: The main reason was the MCA?Tunku: Only the MCA. I did not worry about them. They said, "If youcampaign, we will also campaign against you people."So I said, "Carry on, do what you want. It is for the people to decide."I mean, the country was well served at the time. The economy was good,everything was good, so what was there to be afraid of? The people could notsay that business had gone down, that our money had shrunk.The people couldnot say that because we were having a very good time. So I was not afraid ofanybody. If the people were not happy and they wanted to support thoseparties, those who had shown no particular talent in politics except to talkup to you, let them.K Das: If I remember correctly, 1959 was the year in which you said you werethe happiest PM. Can you recall why you were so happy that particular year?Tunku: In fact I was saying so even before that. You see, we were doing sowell.K Das: Because that happened to be the year you resigned. It was also whenyou said you were the happiest PM. 6. Tunku: That was the time we broke away from the MCA and so on. I dont know,things were going so well, so many things happened that year.K Das: But that was a very good year for elections. You won 74 out of 104seats. 7. The Tunku Tapes: Why Brunei backed out - Part 2Last modified: Wednesday December 26, 4:52 pm10:13am, Thu: After the 1959 general elections, Tunku Abdul Rahman visitedAustralia where he spoke out strongly against apartheid.In 1961, Tunku announced the idea of a Malaysian merger which would includeMalaya, Singapore, North Borneo, Brunei and Sarawak. The Sultan of Bruneibacked out of the Malaysian Federation in the end because of disenchantmentwith certain financial and constitutional aspects of the Malaysian proposal.K Das: Tunku, I met you in 1959 after the elections. You went to Australiaand I was there. I was a student, you gave a small dinner party to thestudents in Melbourne and that was the first time we had satay in Melbourne.Tunku: Was that over here in 1959?K Das: No, it was in Melbourne and you were passing through from Adelaide.You stopped in Melbourne for a few days. What I want to know is what was theoccasion in 1959, after the trouble with the MCA, after the trouble withUmno schoolteachers, elections came and then you were in Australia. It wasquite a long visit. Do you remember?Tunku: That was nothing special. The Australians were very friendly.K Das: Was that an official trip or was it a holiday?Tunku: I think it was more of a holiday. Menzies was very friendly, he gaveme full support. The only trouble I had with him was...K Das: Apartheid.Tunku: Oh! You realise that, he was a very strong supporter. After the firstor second year, we expelled South Africa. Then he groaned, "My God, my God."K Das: He did?Tunku: Yes.K Das: At the conference?Tunku: Yes.K Das: But actually that man is very strange you know. As a prime ministerhe was very powerful.Tunku: Very English. 8. K Das: .but not very popular. His power was through the party and he wasvery clever at manipulating the party. But he was a very good PM in manyways.Tunku: One thing, he was very friendly to us.K Das: He was good at economics but he was not very popular. They admiredhim though.Tunku: The Australians are not classy people although he was very classy. Hewas certainly one of those who closely supported me - Nehru, Ayub Khan, theyall supported me very strongly.K Das: On what issues?Tunku: On everything. When I went to negotiate independence with theBritish, I used to stop sometimes in India, other times in Ceylon ... theywere all very friendly. But I was very surprised that when the massacre tookplace in Sharpeville they did not bring it up. Only I brought it up and Imade it known to the British government before I left. I said I had to takeit up but they tried to advise me not to.K Das: Before you went to London you told them already?Tunku: They were right about that. As soon as Sharpeville took place, I saidwed got to do something about this.K Das: And you spoke about it in Parliament?Tunku: Yes, in our Parliament after my return.K Das: I think you did it before. Because you told me at the conference youcame to the direct mandate...Tunku: When we met again, Verwood, the PM came. He did not say very much.Normally at the Conference of Commonwealth countries, as PM, you are invitedto Chequers, but I did not go and the PM was very disappointed because I goton very well with him.K Das: Who was it then? MacMillan or Wilson?Tunku: I think it was MacMillan. Then Verwood, the PM of South Africa, cameto see me in my hotel. He came to try to explain about what they had donefor the blacks and what not. Then he invited me to go to South Africa. Isaid, "What you have done to the people because of their colour is somethingthat worries me, that you could shoot more than 70 of them down in coldblood."Later on, they kicked him out. 9. Sultan of Brunei opts outK Das: Who was the British official at the time?Tunku: The foreign minister himself, Duncan Sands.K Das: What did he say?Tunku: He said, "You take over."K Das: Regardless?Tunku: Regardless. Transferred power over to me. They trusted me to lookafter the place. He told me there was no use in negotiating with the Sultanof Brunei, that he was so stupid. I said, "Every little thing has life. Idont want to interfere. I dont want to take them over against theirwishes."In fact, at first they were very keen to join Malaysia. I think he must havebeen influenced by the Shell people so they met and they used theirinfluence on him. That is why I could not prove why he changed suddenly fromwanting to join Malaysia and then deciding against joining Malaysia simplybecause of the need to contribute revenue towards defence.K Das: Tunku, in your negotiation, after you spoke to Duncan Sands, did youspeak to the Sultan afterwards?Tunku: I did not see him afterwards, he was at his house when we had thismeeting. I remember there was (Tan) Siew Sin and I, and then there was hislawyer Lawson.K Das: Where did the conversation take place?Tunku: At the Brunei Palace, Istana Brunei. We decided then that there wouldbe a parting of ways. They had also suggested they should be the first Agongbut we had agreed to appoint the Agong through the order of succession.K Das: What was his reason for saying he must be the first Agong?Tunku: He did not give any reason. That is why I said he couldnt, we had tofollow the rules set up according to the order of succession. If the Sultanof Brunei had joined us he would have had to ascend the throne only afterthe Sultan of Peraks turn.What were his objections? To paying for defence . but it was the same forSingapore who had to pay so much for defence and so much for other revenue.Where else could we get this revenue? 10. K Das: This is one of my problems. I want to travel to London and Brunei andother places because other people still have records and documents...Tunku: Weve got records here but they wont give us.K Das: They dont give it here. Also, I want to personally see the peopleinvolved at the time to talk to them and see...Tunku: Well there is nobody else. Siew Sin has died and then there was LordCobbold but at the meeting with the Sultan of Brunei, he was not there. Icannot remember which British officials were there now.K Das: It was the time of Duncan Sands?Tunku: But he was not there at the last meeting. That is why when I saw himin London, he said, "Take it."K Das: Were there any officials from Siew Sins office?Tunku: Siew Sin himself was not there. I was alone. There were no officials.It was not one big meeting but it should have been a big meeting to decide.He was playing an evasive game at that time. He wanted to join . he didntwant to join... That is why I felt the Shell people were influencing him. 11. The Tunku Tapes: Jailing Harun - Part 3Last modified: Friday December 28, 4:33 pm11:00am, Fri: specialAfter the ethnic violence following the worst defeat for the Alliance at the1969 general elections, Tunku Abdul Rahman retired from office and the primeministership passed to Tun Abdul Razak in 1970.It was the passing of an era which saw the control of the ruling party Umnoshift from the old-style English-educated Malay aristocracy to the emergentand ambitious new Malay capitalist class.Razak is credited with initiating much of the racial restructuring of theMalaysian economy under the New Economic Policy. He died in 1976 and hissuccessor was Hussein Onn, son of Umnos founder Onn Jaafar. The new primeministers first test was to confront Harun Idris, the powerful chiefminister of Selangor, who represented an increasingly militant communal wingin Umno.Haruns activities became so blatant that in 1975, the prime ministerdecided to press charges of corruption against him. He was sentenced to sixyears imprisonment on charges of corruption and forgery in 1978 but stillmanaged to win a seat in the Umno supreme council that same year. He wasreleased from prison in 1981.Tunku: Yes, 1959 was good, 1964 was also good but 1969 was the worst yearbecause the communists started trouble and my own people, like (Abdul)Razak, started trouble - trouble started by Harun, Mahathir (Mohamad),Ghazali (Shafie). They wanted to take over power. Things were going so well,they kept on calling me forgetful and what not. So I said, "All right, go onand take over. As for myself, I work for the country and for the people. Ifyou can do better, take it." So that is why I left ...I was then appointed secretary general of the Organisation of IslamicCountries. The headquarters were at my office in Kuala Lumpur. So I just hadto carry on with my new job. I was not feeling upset, I did not feel bad. Itold them, "If you want to do the job, do so by all means." The King ofSaudi picked me to organise the OIC, so I did. I always feel happy when Ihave to organise something, so I was happy to go and organise the OIC.K Das: Tunku, since the terrible May 69 days, this country has progressedrapidly economically and more and more Malays have gone into business andare doing very well, but there are people who say that perhaps they aregoing too fast. How do you feel about this?Tunku: I think they might be right in the sense that it is going a bit toofast for people who have had no previous experience in business and 12. economics and as a result, there is a certain section, and a very smallsection at that, who can take advantage of all these projects that are aimedat benefitting the Malays. The rest are still behind and cannot takeadvantage of it. In a sense, we can say that it is all going too fast.Whatever happens, I feel that in the whole economic progress, youve got totake the whole country with you, youve got to pay more attention to thosewho have less and those who are a little inexperienced in this type of work.You have got to try and help them along. But you cannot, so to speak,benefit one section of the people at the expense of another. That is thething we must not do.I think on the whole, the Chinese and others are quite happy to help theMalays along and so we must not hurt their feelings or show discriminationin any sense in this matter, but try and bring them all along together andget them to try and help Malaysia. It is difficult I know, but that is thesort of policy I tried to carry out in those years of my term as primeminister.K Das: You have always expressed nothing but your admiration and feeling offriendship toward Tun Razak. I think that this feeling is general in thiscountry but there is also a feeling that perhaps Tun Razak was very much incommand but his policies are not being implemented as he would have likedthem. Would you like to talk about this subject?Tunku: I can try to say my bit on this matter because I dont think he wasquite as lucky as I was. When I had him as my No 2, he was a veryconscientious worker and I had all my colleagues in the cabinet whom I hadentrusted to do the job. To the best of my knowledge, they did their jobvery well. They were, you might call pioneers and they were devoted anddedicated to their jobs.Tun Razak might not have been as lucky as I was because he did not haveanother Tun Razak to help him in the way that I had. All these ministers arenew except for one or two who were with him in the early days but on thewhole, they are new. And then perhaps Tun Razaks way of doing things wasdifferent from mine because he was, as you said, a very hard worker - hewanted to do everything himself. In this way, he might have discouraged hiscolleagues who might have felt, "Well, if he wants to do it, let him do it,why should we bother?"That is different from my way of doing things which is, "If you dont do itproperly, then I will come after you." I never interfere in any of mycolleagues work. In fact some of the things I tried to do for my personalfriends, my colleagues turned them down but I didnt say anything, I justaccepted their decision as final. After all, it is their work. I could notinterfere. That is how I feel about it.Going after Harun 13. Tunku: It is clear that Harun Idris was corrupt. He was charged you know.Before that, they were trying to settle the matter.K Das: How were they trying to settle the matter? How did Razak propose tosettle the matter?Tunku: You know Harun (photo, right) was one of those - Harun, Mahathir(photo, left), Ghazali Shafie - who were all working with Razak to oust me,to take over my place. So these are his gang but actually he wanted to helphim by sending him out of this country and be our diplomat outside. ButHarun didnt want to go...K Das: How did Salleh get into...Tunku: He was the solicitor general...K Das: At that time, solicitor general?Tunku: Not solicitor, but attorney-general. I was in the AGs Chambers inthe early days, as DPP.K Das: At that time when Salleh Abas was solicitor general?Tunku: Oh, who was the AG then?K Das: Salleh Yusuf.Tunku: Oh, yes! He was a member of the cabinet. As solicitor general, he hadto deal with the matter.K Das: And he refused to compromise?Tunku: The man had committed a crime. Whoever he was, what did I care? Whena crime has been committed, he must be charged. If he was not charged, I wasprepared to retire, to resign.K Das: Harun was a very naughty fellow. Even as a boy he was very naughty,always fighting with the neighbours children. Then he became MB (MentriBesar), but why was he sacked by Mahathir?Tunku: Adoi! Because he was dishonest.K Das: But I thought Mahathir did not mind dishonesty?Tunku: But there must be something. That is his brother-in-law. Because theSultan did not want him, he went to plead and cry until the Sultan allowedhim to be the MB for a term. 14. K Das: But Razali was also the man who betrayed Harun?Tunku: Harun betrayed Abu Bakar. They are all crooked. So I sacked Abu BakarBaginda. He was the legal advisor in Batu Road. He sneaked on the MB andthen Ghazali sneaked on him. They are all dirty. Allah! All so dirty. Harunworked against me when I sent him to England for legal education. Headmitted this that night when he came here for a public talk.Later, he worked with me through the Football Association and then he turnedagainst me yet again, working with Razak, Mahathir and others. Very dirty,but funny how he changed. When I came back from Saudi Arabia, there wastrouble in his camp. The police had surrounded his house and there were allthe youth inside. I had to go in and get him out. I told him, "You are nowrisking the lives of all these young people, you come to my house."I took him in my car to my house, No 5 Jalan Tunku, and told him to givehimself up. So he agreed and gave himself up to the police. Otherwise, allthose youngsters were going to fight it out.K Das: I know. We were all standing outside his house that night when thepolice surrounded his house.Tunku: That morning I went over. I arrived in KL and Raja, that TanjungKarang Raja, Raja Longchik, he came to the station and asked me to help. Hetook me directly to Haruns house. I climbed upstairs and took him back withme to my house because I said we could not talk business there, there weretoo many young people. They might make trouble. So I told the leaders of theyouth - Abdullah was one of them - "If you want to follow me, you can buthave a talk with Harun at my house." I told him to give up otherwise hewould have to bear the responsibility for whatever happened, so he gave upthen.Now hes 100 per cent for me. Do you know he came all the way from KL toattend my buka puasa function? When I came back from Jeddah, he and thePemuda (Youth) also came to Batu Feringghi to see me. I was staying there. Idont know what the trouble was then. I think they must have sensed it. Hewas a very strange fellow, changed, you couldnt hold him down. How he gothimself pardoned, I dont know. (chuckle) I moved the petition to get hissentences served concurrently. I did not mention any pardon, if they hadadded it on they must have done it after I had collected all the signatures.Mahathir came to see me in my office then.K Das: On behalf of Harun?Tunku: No, he was Acting PM then. Hussein Onn was in England or somewhere.So I told him and he did it.Pardoning Harun 15. K Das: Why did Mahathir come to see you?Tunku: Over this case, I asked him. I did not want to go and see him in hisoffice.K Das: What did he say?Tunku: He came and he said, "All right, Ill do it." So he did it. ButHussein Onn would not have done it. He did not like Harun, he is sodishonest.K Das: I dont understand how they could give him a pardon. A pardon is verydifficult to understand. The concurrent sentence I agree.Tunku: But the pardon was not in my appeal. I was the one who made theappeal, nobody else.