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Ms Swarandeep Birdi v (1) Specsavers Optical Group Limited (2) Mr Kamaljit Singh (3) Dartford Visionplus Limited (4) Dartford
Specsavers Limited
Day 8
November 3, 2014
Opus 2 International - Official Court Reporters
Phone: +44 (0)20 3008 5900Email: transcripts@opus2.comWebsite: http://www.opus2.com
November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
1
1 Monday,3November2014
2 (10.30am)
3 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes,goodmorning,MrStuart.
4 MRSTUART:Goodmorning,myLord.YourLordshipmayhave
5 seen,Ihavejusthandedup‐‐
6 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Aproposedrevisedtimetable.
7 MRSTUART:Aproposedrevisedtimetable.Thereisjustone
8 issuethatIjustneedtobottomout,whichisthat
9 MrRehman,MsBirdi'shusband‐‐
10 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
11 MRSTUART:WehaveputhiminlastthingonFridaybecause,
12 asMrPottssaidtome,itseemedsillytocomebackon
13 Mondayforhim,becausethathadbeenwherewehadput
14 him,becausemyinstructionshadbeenthatMrRehmanis
15 notavailablethisweek.
16 IhavecheckedwithMsBirdithismorningandsheis
17 surethathewon'tbeabletobehereonFridaybecause
18 heislecturingthatday.Sohecan't,asitwere,get
19 asubstitutein.Butitmaybethatwecangetsome
20 availabilityforhimonThursdayorevenlateon
21 Wednesdayorsomething,soifweneedtoslothimin,we
22 aregoingtotryandslothimin‐‐
23 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Heisnotgoingtobeverylong.
24 MRSTUART:Heisnot.
25 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Andhecanbeslottedinwhenit'smost
2
1 appropriate.
2 MRSTUART:Yes.
3 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyou.
4 MRPOTTS:MyLord,youwillseesomeproposalsinrelation
5 toclosing‐‐subjectofcourse,toyourLordship.We
6 haveputinsomeslightlyrevisedproposalsonthe
7 assumptionthattheevidencefinishesonFriday.
8 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Fridaythisweek?
9 MRPOTTS:Yes,thatMondaywouldbespentpreparingsome
10 writtenclosingsubmissions.Thosewouldbeexchanged
11 at10aminthemorningonTuesday.YourLordshipwould
12 thenhavethedaytoreadthose.
13 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Andadayfororalsubmissions.
14 MRPOTTS:Thenaday,effectivelyhalfadayeach,onthe
15 Wednesday,sowewouldcompletewithinour15‐day
16 allocatedtime.
17 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes,thatseemsreasonablysensible.
18 Thisisquiteafact‐heavycase.
19 MRPOTTS:Itis.
20 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Anditmaybethat,whenwecometo
21 closingsubmissions,youmightwantmorethanhalfaday
22 each.AsfarasI'mconcerned,ifitgoesoverfor
23 anotherday,itdoesn'tcausemepersonallyany
24 inconvenience.Youmightwanttothinkaboutthat.
25 MRPOTTS:Ithink,myLord,it'sasortoftoss‐upbetween
3
1 howmuchtimeforwritten,asopposedtooral‐‐
2 MRJUSTICENUGEE:IfwefinishbyFriday,youluckypeople
3 aregoingtohavethewholeweekendaswellasMonday
4 andMondaynight,ifnecessary.
5 MRPOTTS:Indeed.
6 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Iagreethatit'shelpful,inacase
7 wherethereisalotofdetail,toputthingsdownin
8 writingbecausethenthereisaclearrecordofthem,
9 butIdofindithelpfultohavequitefulloral
10 arguments.
11 MRPOTTS:That'shelpful.
12 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Becausethereisalotoffactual
13 dispute.Thereisalso,Ithink,goingtobesome
14 disputeaboutthelawaswell,andIwillbenefitfrom
15 oralargument.
16 MRPOTTS:Yes.
17 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes,MrStuart.
18 MRDEREKDYSON(continued)
19 Cross‐examinationbyMRSTUART(continued)
20 MRSTUART:Goodmorning,MrDyson.
21 A.Goodmorning.
22 Q.Couldyouhaveyourwitnessstatementbundle,sothat's
23 C.CouldyoualsohaveE2andcouldyoualsobegiven
24 thetranscriptbundlejustforFriday,justfor
25 MrDyson'sownevidenceonFriday.Ithinkthat's
4
1 day7,iftheyareintabs.
2 So,MrDyson,justbeforeImoveontothenextpart
3 ofyourwitnessstatement,andIthinkwehavegotupto
4 aroundaboutparagraph65,butjustbeforeImoveonto
5 66,Ijustdoneedtogooverwithyouoncemoreone
6 pointwhichyouwereadamantaboutonFriday,andIjust
7 needtogiveyouanopportunitytocommentonitone
8 lasttime.
9 Ifyougotoyourtranscriptbundle‐‐doyou
10 rememberthepaginationisfourpagestothepage?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Ifyoustartonpage99,line13,{Day7/99:13}the
13 thornyissueofwhetheritwastheplan,asIwas
14 suggestingtoyou,andthattheplan,before
15 MrMcAlindonwenttothestoreon20February,involved
16 youbuyingMrPatel'ssharesoffhimandfixingaprice,
17 andMrRyan'sdepartmentfixingthatpricebeforethe
18 20th,orwhetheritalloccurred,asyouassertedon
19 Friday,afterMrMcAlindontelephonedyou.Doyou
20 rememberthatissue?
21 A.Ido.
22 Q.Andifyouwilljustlookat‐‐I'mnotgoingtoread
23 themoutthistime,butifyoujustlookatpage99,
24 lines13to20?{Day7/99:13}
25 A.Yes.
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5
1 Q.Andthenoverthepage,page101,lines4to8.
2 {Day7/101:4}(Pause)
3 A.Yes.
4 Q.Andthenpage102,lines3to16.{Day7/102:3}(Pause)
5 Andespeciallylines10to13ofthatchunk?
6 {Day7/102:10}
7 A.Yes.
8 Q.Thenpage103,lines22to25.{Day7/103:22}(Pause)
9 A.Yes.
10 Q.Andcarryingontopage104,lines1to3.{Day7/104:1}
11 (Pause)
12 A.Yes.
13 Q.Ithinkthatwillprobablydoit.Soyourecallyour
14 evidence,veryclearevidence?
15 A.Ido.
16 Q.Thatthesequencewasthattherewasnoplanatallto
17 buyMrPatel'sshares,valuethoseshares,until
18 20FebruarywhenMrMcAlindonwenttothestoreand,
19 uponMrPateladmittingthings,MrMcAlindonphonedyou;
20 youthensetintrainMrRyanand/orhisdepartment
21 valuingthoseshares?
22 A.Correct.
23 Q.AndIsuggestedtoyouthatitmightperhapshavebeen
24 doneontheFridaybefore,the16th,andyousaid,
25 "Absolutelynot"?
6
1 A.Correct.
2 Q.Wouldyoujusttakealookatthisdocument.Justone
3 sheetofpaper.MyLord,thereisacopyforyouthere.
4 (Handed)
5 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Canwedecide‐‐thereareanumberof
6 loosebitsofpaper.
7 MRSTUART:Yes.
8 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Andatsomestage,notnecessarilynow,
9 decidewhereyouputthem.Maybeattheendoftheday.
10 MRSTUART:MyLord,thisoneI'mhappytoputinsomewhere
11 becauseithasn'tmadeitswayintothetrialbundlebut
12 itis,asyouwillseefromthebottomright‐hand
13 corner‐‐
14 MRJUSTICENUGEE:It'sadiscloseddocument.
15 MRSTUART:‐‐it'saSpecsavers'‐‐therespondent's
16 discloseddocument.
17 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
18 MRSTUART:Andit'sdated,justinthebottomline,sowe
19 knowwherewecanputit,whichisinbundleE2at
20 page275A.
21 Doyourecall,MrDyson‐‐ifyouwouldhave
22 page275openaswellinE2.DoyourememberIasked
23 youaboutthis,page275inE2?{E/34/275}Theemail
24 toyourassistant,EmmaMeagher,fromMrMcAlindonat
25 7.40inthemorningofFriday16February?Doyou
7
1 recall:2 "CouldyouaskDerektogivemeacallreDartford3 thismorning...needtohaveachatwithhimonhowhe4 wantsustodealwiththisincaseitdoesnotgoto5 plan."6 Doyouseethat?7 A.Yes.8 Q."IwillbespeakingtoCristinafirstthingaswellto9 getpapersdrawn..."
10 Doyouseethat:11 "...forsuspension,righttoinvestigate,etcetera12 butwanttoknowifDerekispreparedtogothewhole13 hog..."14 Doyouseethat?15 A.Ido.16 Q.ThedocumentIhavejustpassedyouispartofyour17 disclosure.It'soneofSpecsavers'owninternal18 documents.Doyouseeit?19 A.Ido.20 Q.It'sdated16December2007;that'stheFriday.Doyou21 seethat?Rightatthebottom?22 A.Yes.23 Q.Andit'spreparedbyaMrSteveGlass,who,accordingto24 theagreedlistofcharacters‐‐page5foryour25 Lordship'sreference‐‐page5oftheagreedlistof
8
1 characters,seconditem,SteveGlass.Heisinthe2 businesstransferteam,soheworksforMrRyan,doesn't3 he?4 A.Correct.5 Q.DoyouknowMrGlass?6 A.Ido.7 Q.DoesheworkinGuernsey?8 A.Hedoes.9 Q.Yes.Ifweseethis,itsays:
10 "DividendDartfordSpecsaversLimited."11 Doyouseethat,atthetop?12 A.Yes.13 Q.Butactuallywhenonereadsdown‐‐andI'llgiveyou14 achancetogothroughit‐‐it'sactuallyavaluation15 exercise.Doyouseetheword:16 "Valuationbaseduponpastprofitsassuming17 purchaserisnotabonafideemployeeandassuchthat18 futuredistributionsofprofitsforthepurposeof19 supportingborrowingcanonlybepaidbydividend."20 Doyouseethat?21 A.No,Idon'tknowweareyouarelookingat,MrStuart.22 Q.Rightatthetopofthepageunder,"DividendDartford23 Specsavers",itsays:24 "Valuationbaseduponpastprofits..."25 A.Gotit;Ihaveitnow.
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9
1 Q.Sothisisavaluationexercisebeingdonebysomebody
2 inthebusinesstransferdepartmenton16Februaryand
3 it'svaluingMrPatel's50percentshareholding.
4 Letmetakethroughit.Wehavegotthethree
5 years'worthofaccountinginformation;doyousee?
6 A.Yes.
7 Q.YearstoSeptember2006,September2005and
8 September2004.Wehavegotthesalesandtheprofit.
9 Thenthewayhedoesisittoaddbackinthedirectors'
10 remunerationaspertheaccounts.Ofcourse,that
11 includesbothbonusesandotherremuneration,doesn't
12 it?
13 A.Itdoes.
14 Q.Andthendeductthenormalemoluments,salary,sothe
15 basicsalary,£72,500.That'sforthetwoofthem.Do
16 youseethat?
17 A.Yes.
18 Q.Andthatthengiveshimasortofnetprofitfigurefor
19 eachyear.Doyouseethose?44,91and178inreverse
20 order?
21 A.Yes.
22 Q.Thenthereistheweighting,whichyoudescribedtohis
23 Lordshipwhenheaskedyouaboutwhetheryouunderstand
24 howitwasdone,andyoudescribedtheweighting.It
25 lookslikeit'sweightedtimesthreefortheimmediate
10
1 year,timestwofortheyearbefore,andtimesonefor
2 theearliestyear.Doyouseethat?
3 A.Ido.
4 Q.Andthenthosethreefiguresareaddedtogetherandthen
5 dividedbysix.Soyougetaweightedaverageofthe
6 lastthreeyears'profits.Doyouseethat?
7 A.Ido.
8 Q.Sothatseemstotieinwithwhatyoudescribedtohis
9 LordshipasbeingtheexercisethatMrRyanandhisteam
10 woulddo,whenyouwentintohisofficeonthe20thand
11 said,"Mike,weneedavaluationonDartford".
12 Andthenitsays:
13 "2006figuresareannualisedmanagementaccounts
14 from..."
15 Ithinkthatsays"PL",profitandlossor
16 something.Wouldthatberight?IsupposeIoughtto
17 haveaskedyou.
18 A.Ithinkthatsays,"period12".
19 Q."Period12".I'mwrongandyouareright.Ishould
20 haveaskedyou:doyourecognisethewriting,"P12",and
21 the80Kandthe125K?
22 A.No.
23 Q.Youdonotrecognisethat?
24 A.No.
25 Q.Okay.Sothenwehaveavaluationrangebetweentwoand
11
1 threetimesforapracticeofthisageandmaturity.So
2 theprofits,theweightedaverageprofitsof82,are
3 thenmultipliedby2,2.5or3.SoIthinkthatagain
4 chimeswithwhatyoutoldhisLordshipwouldbethe
5 methodologyforvaluingtheAshares?
6 A.Correct.
7 Q.Whenyouarebuyingthemfromthepurchaser,oryouare
8 sellingthemtosomebodyelse.
9 Thenitsays:
10 "Salessharesasapercentageoftotal
11 Ashareholding,50percent."
12 Soobviously,inthiscaseMrPatelhad50percent
13 oftheAshares?
14 A.Yes.
15 Q.Andsosuggesting:
16 "Thesaleshares..."
17 That'sobviouslyasaleoftheshares,MrPatel's
18 shares:
19 "...wouldbeworth..."
20 Andthenwehavegotthreefiguresdependingupon
21 themultiplier.Whetherit's2,2.5or3,theshares
22 areeitherworth82‐and‐a‐bit,or103,or£123,500.Do
23 yousee?
24 A.Ido.
25 Q.SogettingMrPatel'ssalesharesfor£55,000,asper
12
1 thesharesaleagreementthatMsdelGraziahaddrafted,
2 thatwouldfallwithinafiguresignificantlylowerthan
3 thebusinesstransferdepartment'svaluationofthose
4 sharesontheFriday,oneworkingdaybefore
5 MrMcAlindongoestoseeMrPatel?
6 A.Ido.
7 Q.Sothat'stheshares,andthenthereiswhatlookstome
8 likeacalculationofterminaldividend.
9 Doyouwanttojusthavealookatthatnextchunk
10 whichstarts:
11 "Assumingtheaverageprofitremainsatcurrent
12 year'slevelfortheforeseeablefuture..."
13 Doyouseethat?
14 A.Ido.
15 Q.Andthenitseemstobethatacalculationisdone,
16 nettingdownthedividend,whichthenequatesto
17 amonthlyrepaymentoverfiveyearsof£974.
18 MRJUSTICENUGEE:MrStuart,itdoesn'tappeartomethat
19 it'sacalculationofterminaldividend.Whatitsays
20 it'sacalculationofisthemaximumcapitalvalueof
21 theloan,whichisaratherdifferentthing.
22 MRSTUART:Yes,butthereisa‐‐yes.
23 Theloanisnotthedirectors'loanthat'ssitting
24 intheaccountsofthecompanyatthattime,isit,
25 MrDyson?
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13
1 A.Ihavenoidea.
2 Q.Thisis‐‐itsays:
3 "Profitsattributabletopurchaser's
4 Ashareholding."
5 Andwecanseethatthefigureis£22,252.Doyou
6 see?
7 A.Ido.
8 Q.Whichisexactly50percentofthefigureunder
9 managementaccounts,theprofitfigure,of£44,504.So
10 £44,504aretheprofits,theaccruedprofits?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Doyousee?Andexactly50percentofthatis£22,252.
13 Sothisappearstobeacalculationinrelationtothe
14 profitsfortheyear,doesn'tit?
15 A.Itwouldappearso.
16 Q.Andthatshareoftheprofitsthatisattributableto
17 MrPatel'sAshareholdingis50percent.Heis
18 entitledto50percentofthatprofit.That'sright,
19 isn'tit?
20 A.Correct.
21 Q.Andthenwhatthefiguresseemtoshowisthatthetax
22 hasbeendeductedfromthat.Doyousee?
23 A.Yes.
24 Q.£6,675deemedtaxhasbeendeductedfromthattoproduce
25 anetdividend‐‐Ithinkthat'swhyIusedthe
14
1 "dividend"word,whichhisLordshiphaspickedup.It
2 seemstometobeacalculationofanetdividend,which
3 isthentoberepayableoveraperiodoftime.Doyou
4 seethat?
5 A.Ido.
6 Q.Isthatafairsummaryofit,thatchunk?
7 A.Yes,itlookslikethat.
8 MRJUSTICENUGEE:CanIaskyou,MrDyson,doyourecognise
9 acalculationofthistype?
10 A.No.
11 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Andwhyit'sdone?
12 A.No.
13 MRJUSTICENUGEE:No.Soyouarelookingatthisdocument,
14 tryingtomakesenseofit.Youarenotdrawingonyour
15 knowledgeofwhatthistypeofcalculationisdonefor
16 orhowit'sdone?
17 A.No,Ihavenoknowledgeofit.
18 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyou.
19 MRSTUART:WearenotgoingtohearfromMrRyanor
20 MrGlassinthiscase,arewe,MrDyson?
21 A.No.
22 Q.Oranybodyelsefromthebusinesstransferteamwhowere
23 involvedinvaluingtheseshares?
24 A.No.MrRyannolongerworksforthecompany.
25 Q.Yes.
15
1 MRJUSTICENUGEE:MrStuart,letmemakeitclearIhaveno
2 objectiontoyouaskingquestionsastowhathecan
3 derivefromadocument,butthereisadifference
4 betweenderivingsomethingfromadocumentandderiving
5 itfromyourexperience.
6 MRSTUART:Iunderstand,myLord;Idounderstand.
7 SoMrDyson,I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatinthe
8 lightofthatdocument‐‐andit'sdated16February
9 2007;doyousee?
10 A.Ido.
11 Q.PreparedbythebusinesstransferteamonthatFriday,
12 coincidentallythesamedaythatMrMcAlindonhas
13 emailedyouat7.42inthemorningaskingtocatchup
14 thatdaytodiscusstheplan;yes?
15 A.Yes.
16 Q.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatyourevidencethatyou
17 gaveonFriday,whereyouwereabsolutelyadamantonthe
18 fiveoccasionsIhaveshownyoufromthetranscriptthat
19 therewasnoplantoconsiderbuyingMrPatel'sshares
20 ortovaluethosesharesuntilafterMrMcAlindonhad
21 telephonedyouonthe20th‐‐I'mgoingtosuggestto
22 youthatthatevidenceisnotcorrect?
23 A.Myevidenceistrue.
24 Q.Doyouhaveanyexplanationastowhy‐‐
25 A.Ihaveneverseenthisbefore.Ihavegotno
16
1 explanationforitatall,no.2 Q.Evenlookingatthisdocumentnow,youdon'twishto3 amendyourevidence?4 A.Idon't,no.5 Q.Right.Let'smoveon.6 AsIsay,Ithinkwehavegottoparagraph65of7 yourfirstwitnessstatement.{C/9/103}Canwepickup8 thestoryatparagraph66,whereyoustartnowdealing9 withthedisciplinaryprocesswhichwastobeconducted
10 byMrRaines.Doyouseethat?11 A.Ido.12 Q.CanIjustaskyou:doesMrRainesreporttoyou?13 A.Hedoes,yes.14 Q.HeisthedirectorofretailoperationsatSOS,asyou15 say?16 A.Right.17 Q.That'swhatyousayinparagraph66?18 A.Yes.19 Q.CouldyoujustexplaintohisLordshipthedifference,20 forthesepurposes,betweenSOSandSOG?21 A.SOSisSpecsaversOpticalGroupbasedinGuernseyand22 MarkRainesworksforSpecsaversOpticalSuperstores,23 whichisourUKbusinessthatprovidestheservicesand24 supporttothestores.25 Q.Ithink,justforthesakeoftherecord,Ithinkyou
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17
1 justmadeaninnocenterror.YoumeantSOGis2 SpecsaversOpticalGroup,basedinGuernsey.3 A.Yes.4 Q.AndSOS?5 A.IsSpecsaversOpticalSuperstores.6 Q.WhichisaUKcompany?7 A.WhichisaUKcompany.8 Q.WhoownsSOS?9 A.SOG.
10 Q.Right.Soit'saUKsubsidiary,ifyoulike?11 A.Correct.12 Q.Thedisciplinaryprocess,yousay,wasconductedby13 MrRainesandyousayyouhadnoinputinMrRaines's14 decision‐making?15 A.That'scorrect.16 Q.WhochoseMrRaines?17 A.Ihavegotnoidea.Iwasn'tinvolvedinthat18 decision‐makingprocess.19 Q.Right.ButIthoughtyouandonlyyouweretheperson,20 thenaturalperson,whowasmakingthedecisiontogo21 throughthedisciplinaryprocess?22 A.Ihadinstructedpeopletocarryouttheinvestigation23 andareportobviouslywasproduced,andLegalwould24 havecontactedMrRainesandaskedhimtocarryoutthe25 disciplinaryprocess.
18
1 Q.Yes.Butmypoint:whyMrRaines?
2 A.Becauseheisthemostseniorpersonbelowmeandwould
3 bethenaturalperson,Iwouldhavethought,ofchoice.
4 Q.Okay.WehaveobviouslymovedfromMrMcAlindondoing
5 hisinvestigation;yes?
6 A.Correct.
7 Q.ToMrRainesdoingthedisciplinarypartoftheprocess?
8 A.IthinkitwasMrMcAlindonandMrNeilHamiltonwho
9 wereinvolvedintheinvestigation.
10 Q.Yes.Buttakingthestepfrominvestigation,McAlindon
11 andHamilton,todisciplinary,that'sobviouslyan
12 importantstep,isn'tit?
13 A.Itis,yes.
14 Q.Whodoyousaytookthatdecision?
15 A.Idon'tactuallyknowbut‐‐ifIsaidit,Iwouldjust
16 beguessing.
17 Q.Okay.
18 A.Butcertainlythelegalteamwouldhavebeeninvolvedin
19 thatselectionprocess.
20 Q.Right.Ifwegototheactualdocumentsatthis
21 point‐‐thisisE2/393.{E/77/393}
22 A.393?
23 Q.393.ThisisApril2007.DoyourememberMsBirdihad
24 complainedaboutMrMcAlindonbeinginvolved?
25 A.Sorry‐‐
19
1 Q.DoyourememberMsBirdihadcomplainedabout2 MrMcAlindon'sinvolvementandbullying/intimidation.3 Doyouremember?Wesawthatlastweek.4 A.Idon'trememberthat.Irememberthatwediscussed5 thattherewasagrievanceraisedbyMsBirdi.6 Q.Yes.AboutMrMcAlindon?7 A.Correct.8 Q.Okay.That'sfine.Soyouunderstandthecontextof9 thisletterandyouwillseeinthethirdparagraph:
10 "IntheDartfordsituation,theinvestigationis11 carriedoutthroughthespecialisedservicesofthe12 SpecsaversLossPrevention&Auditdepartment."13 A.Correct.14 Q."If,onreceiptoftheinvestigationreport(andwithout15 prejudgingtheresultsofthecurrentongoing16 investigationatDartfordorassumingthatany17 disciplinaryactionwillactuallybenecessary),itis18 consideredthatthereisacasetoanswer,thenyouwill19 beinvitedformallyforadisciplinaryhearing."20 Doyouseethat?21 A.Ido.22 Q.ThatseemstobethethoughtprocessofSOG.Andthen23 atthebottomofthatpage:24 "Wenotethatyouhavemadeaformalcomplaint25 regardingMrMcAlindon'sconduct..."
20
1 Doyouseethat?
2 A.Correct.
3 Q.Overthepage:{E/77/394}
4 "Allcomplaintsofthisnaturearetakenvery
5 seriouslyandwehavequestionedbothMrMcAlindonand
6 MrBarnesastotheeventsofthatday."
7 Doyouseethat?
8 A.Ido.
9 Q.ThisisthedaywhenMsBirdiwassuspended,27March,
10 okay?
11 A.Okay.
12 Q.WhichisthedaywhenMrsFrondigounsaysthat
13 MrMcAlindonwasthere,intimidatingMsBirdi.
14 A.That'sherevidence,yes.
15 Q.So:
16 "Allcomplaintsofthisnaturearetakenvery
17 seriouslyandwehavequestionedbothMrMcAlindonand
18 MrBarnesastotheeventsofthatday."
19 Whois"we"?
20 A.IunderstandthatMrClarkwasthegentlemanwhodidthe
21 investigation.
22 Q.Okay:
23 "Wearesatisfiedthatnoinappropriatebehaviouron
24 theirparttookplace."
25 Whoisthe"we"?IsthatMrClarkalso?
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21
1 A.MrClarkwouldonlypresenthisfindings.
2 AlisonAndersonistheauthorisedsignatoryfor
3 SpecsaversOpticalGroup,soIassumethatsheissaying
4 "we"isSpecsaversOpticalGroup.
5 Q.WhoisthedirectoratSpecsaversOpticalGroup,whois
6 takingthatdecision?Isthatyou?
7 A.Ihavegotnorecollectionofit.Itcouldhavebeenme
8 butIhavenorecollection.
9 Q.Okay.Couldyouthinkofanyoneelseitmighthavebeen
10 apartfromyou?
11 A.Itdoesn'tspringtomind,MrStuart.
12 Q.Okay.Thenthenextparagraphistheresponsetothe
13 complaint,ifyoulike.Itsays:
14 "Notwithstandingtheabove,itwouldbeimpractical
15 andunrealisticatthisstageoftheprocessfor
16 MrMcAlindonnottocontinuewiththeremainingpartof
17 theinvestigation..."
18 SoSOGhasdecidedthatMrMcAlindonisgoingto
19 continuetocarryouttheinvestigation;doyousee
20 that?
21 A.Ido.
22 Q."However,toshowrespectforyourfeelingsand
23 comments,MrMcAlindonhasagreedtobeaccompaniedby
24 aseniorpersonappointedbythisofficetoactasan
25 independentobserverattheinvestigatoryinterview."
22
1 Doyouseethat?
2 A.Ido.
3 Q.Wereyouinvolvedinthatdecisionatall?
4 A.Ihavegotnorecollectionatallofanyofthis.
5 Q.Doyouknowwhotheseniorobserverwas?
6 A.Idon't,no.
7 Q.Allright.Ifyoujustgobacktoyourwitness
8 statementthen,66.Yousaythatyouhadnoinputinto
9 MrRaines'sdisciplinaryprocess.{C/9/103}Isthat
10 right?
11 A.Absolutelynot.
12 Q.Justtobeclear,didyouhaveinputintoappointing
13 MrRaines‐‐inputintoappointingMrRaines,ornot?
14 A.Idon'tremember,butImayhavedone.
15 Q.Okay.Wedon'tseemtohaveanydocumentsshowingyour
16 input,anymeetingornotesofatelephonecallor
17 aconversationoranything.Isthatright?
18 A.That'scorrect.
19 Q.Okay.Bythistime,haveyoutakenoverday‐to‐day
20 managementofthestore?
21 A.Whenyousay"bythistime",MrStuart,canyougiveme
22 apoint‐‐
23 Q.SoApril2007.MsBirdiwassuspendedon27March2007?
24 A.Yes.
25 Q.MrPatelhadobviouslyleftinFebruary.
23
1 A.Correct.
2 Q.Sobythistime,April2007,haveyoutakenover
3 day‐to‐daycontrol?
4 A.Yes,wemusthavedone.
5 Q.Yes.AreyoudoingthatasAshareholderbecauseyou
6 ownMrPatel'sAshares,orareyoudoingthatas
7 Bshareholder,becausethereareno
8 Ashareholders/Adirectorsavailable?
9 A.Myrecollectionatthetimeisbecausewewere
10 Ashareholder.
11 Q.Okay.Totheextentthatallthatthenhappens‐‐and
12 wearecomingtoitnow,"Emergencymanagementcover"
13 onwardsinyourstatement‐‐aremattersofday‐to‐day
14 managementofthestore,wasthereanyreasonwhyyou
15 wouldn'tinvolveMsBirdi,atleastinjoiningyouasan
16 Adirector?
17 A.MsBirdiwassuspended.
18 Q.Fromheremploymentonly?
19 A.ButIalsowouldunderstandfromthatshewassuspended
20 fromherdutiesasanAdirectoruntiltheinvestigation
21 wascompleted.
22 Q.Okay.Oneofthethingsthatseemstohappenatthis
23 stage,soMay2007,isobviouslythatMrMcAlindonis
24 sentintopursuefurtherinvestigationswithtwo
25 membersofstaff,LorraineFrondigounand
24
1 PatriceO'Brien.WefindthatatE2,page418,1May,2 theinterviews.{E/86/418}Thefirstiswith3 LorraineFrondigoun,418andthenPatriceO'Brienis4 426.{E/86/426}Doyouseethat?5 A.Ido.6 Q.DidyouhaveanyinputyourselfastheAdirectoror7 controllingAdirector‐‐youareSOG,aren'tyou?You8 arethedirectorofSOGwhoisconductingthe‐‐9 A.Investigation.
10 Q.Didyouhaveanypersonalinputintosending11 MrMcAlindoninon1Maytogettheseinterviews?12 A.Whenyousay"personal",whatdoesthatmean?13 Q.DidyouspeaktoMrMcAlindonandhesaidtoyou,14 "Right,Iwanttotryandgetsomeevidenceagainst15 MsBirdi;I'mgoingtogoinandspeaktotwomembersof16 staff"?17 A.No.18 Q.Didyouknowhewasgoinginon1May?19 A.Notparticularly,no,butIknewthatMrMcAlindonwas20 goingtobecarryingoutaninvestigation.21 Q.Yes.Underwhatauthoritywashecarryingoutthat22 investigationbythispoint,1May2007?23 A.HewasundertheauthorityofSOG,whois24 aBshareholderandentitledtocarryoutthe25 investigationintoseriousmatters.
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25
1 Q.Fromyouranswer,doIgatherthatyouaresuggesting
2 thattheauthoritycomesthroughtheBshareholding;
3 becauseyouareaBshareholderandaBdirector,you
4 cansendhimin?
5 A.Wecan‐‐withthepowersthatwehaveunderthe
6 Bshareholding,weareentitled,whenitisofaserious
7 nature,tocarryoutaninvestigation.
8 Q.Okay.Doyousaythat'sintheshareholderagreement?
9 Becauseintheshareholderagreement,everythingother
10 thantheday‐to‐daymanagement,whichgoestothe
11 Adirectors,andthefinancialpayments,whichgoesto
12 theBshareholders‐‐everythingelseisnotday‐to‐day
13 managementandhastobethesubjectofadulyconvened
14 boardmeeting.Doyouremember?
15 A.Butthisisanemergencyandwehave‐‐myunderstanding
16 oftherightsastheBshareholder‐‐tocarryoutan
17 investigationwhenthereisathreattothebusiness,
18 threattoprofitabilityandjust,youknow,thingsthat
19 areveryserious.
20 Q.Thereisnoemergencyby1May,isthere?MsBirdihas
21 beensuspendedon27March.Sheisoutofthestore.
22 Onyourversionofevents,shecan'tdoinganythingat
23 all.Sowhat'stheemergency?
24 A.I'mslightlyconfused,MrStuart,asto‐‐couldyou
25 repeattheoriginalquestionbecausemyunderstanding
26
1 wasthatthisinvestigationiscontinuingthroughout
2 alongperiodoftimethathasbeengoingon.
3 Q.It'snolongeranemergencythen,isit?Ifit'sgoing
4 onoveralongperiodoftime,it'snotanemergency?
5 A.What'snotanemergency?
6 Q.Thestepsbeingtakenatthispointintime.
7 A.No,it'sdueprocessnow.
8 Q.Right.Butthedueprocessundertheshareholders'
9 agreementrequiresyoutocalladulyconvenedboard
10 meetingtoauthorisematterssuchasthis,whichare
11 outsideday‐to‐daymanagementmatters.
12 A.Iunderstandthat.
13 Q.Andyoucouldhavecalledaboardmeeting?
14 A.Wecouldhavedone,butwedidn't.
15 Q.Yes.Why?
16 A.I'mnotsureIknowtheanswertothatquestion.What
17 Idoknowisitwaswithinourgifttorectifythat
18 positionatalatertimebyratifyingtheactionswe
19 tookthroughaboardmeeting,ofwhichwewouldhave
20 beenchairmanandwewouldhavehadcastingvote.
21 Q.Butyoudon'tknowwhatbreachesoffiduciarydutyyou
22 mighthavecommittedtoallegedlyratify?
23 A.Well,wewillknowattheendoftheinvestigation.
24 Q.Okay.Thenextissuethatarisesissalaryreviews,
25 becauseMrMcAlindonsaysthatafterhespoketothetwo
27
1 staff,theissueoftheirsalariesarose.Ifyougoto2 page433,doyouseethat?{E/88/433}3 A.Ido.4 Q.AndMsSlark,orMrsGroves,hasbeentaskedwiththe5 job,byMrMcAlindon,oflookingatthesalariesand6 bonuses.Doyouremember?7 A.IthinkMsSlarkwastheretomanagetheday‐to‐day.8 Q.Shewas,butinrelationtosalariesandbonuses,she9 hadbeentaskedbyMrMcAlindontolookatthisissue?
10 A.Whereisthatreference?11 Q.Ithinkit'sinMrMcAlindon'sownwitnessstatement,12 actually?13 A.I'mnotawareofthat.14 Q.Youarenotaware.Okay.Soyoudonotknowhowit15 cametobethatMsSlarkproducedthesefigures?16 A.No.17 Q.Thisproposal?18 A.No.19 Q.Ifwelookatpage434,{E/88/434}MsSlarkwritesto20 MrMcAlindonattheend.Doyouseethepenultimate21 sentence:22 "Theattachmentisforyouatthemoment,letme23 lookatworkingagainstaccountstoseeifyoucanthen24 takeittotheboardforapproval.25 "Ihavebeenverygeneroushere!"
28
1 Exclamationmark.Andthentheattachmentsare
2 thesesalaryincreases;doyousee?
3 A.Ido.
4 Q.Ifwegotopage450‐‐actually,weshouldpickitup
5 at447.{E/95/447}
6 On16May,sothat'stwoweekslater,MsSlark
7 writestoMrMcAlindon;thebottomemail,doyousee:
8 "HiMel.
9 "Ihaveworkedwiththefiguresandbasedthe
10 suggestionofsalaryincreasesonthefactthatstaff
11 havenothadevenasalaryreviewinlinewithinflation
12 foryears..."
13 Doyouseethat?
14 A.Ido.
15 Q.That'showmanyyears?Doyouknow?
16 A.Myunderstandingitwastwoorthreeyears.
17 Q.Okay.Thensheexplainswhatshehasdoneandshesays:
18 "Pleasecouldyoulookatthissuggestiongoingto
19 boardlevel..."
20 Doyouseethat?
21 A.Correct.
22 Q.MsSlarkisworkinginhercapacitythereasmanaging
23 theDartfordSpecsavers,isn'tshe?
24 A.Correct.
25 Q.Sotheboardlevelthatsheistalkingaboutisthe
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29
1 boardofDartfordSpecsaversand/orDartfordVisionplus,
2 itssubsidiary,whowastheactualemployerthat
3 employedallofthesepeopleandwouldhavebeengiving
4 themtheirsalaryincreasesandbonuses?
5 A.Youcanmakethatassumption.Idon'tknowforafact,
6 butthat'sprobablywhatCarolwasdoing.
7 Q.Yes.Butyoudidn'tputthistotheboard,didyou,of
8 DartfordVisionplusorDartfordSpecsavers,because
9 MsBirdiwouldhavebeenonthatboard,wouldn'tshe?
10 Shewasadirectorofthosetwocompanies?
11 A.Sorry,that‐‐canyoujustrepeatthatbecauseIthink
12 youhavejumpedastephere.Thisisaproposal‐‐
13 Q.That'sright,andsheasks‐‐
14 A.‐‐thatcomesthroughtome.
15 Q.That'sright,andsheasksthatthesuggestiongoesto
16 theboardlevel.Soshewantsboardlevelapprovalfor
17 thesesalaryincreasesandbonusincreases?
18 A.Yes.
19 Q.Sheisactuallyinposition,runningthestore?
20 A.Butatthispointintime,thisisnot‐‐hasn'tcometo
21 me.
22 Q.Wearejustabouttoseeitcometoyou‐‐
23 A.Okay,thenIthinkthenit'srelative‐‐
24 Q.‐‐acoupleofhourslater?
25 A.‐‐atthatpointthatitcomestometoanswerthe
30
1 question,butatthispointintime,it'sgoingthrough
2 aprocess.
3 Q.Theprocessis:shehascomeupwithsomefiguresas
4 requestedofherbyMrMcAlindon?
5 A.Yes.
6 Q.ShehassentthemtoMrMcAlindon,16May,andthenon
7 17Mayat7.15inthemorning,MrMcAlindonforwards
8 themontoyou?
9 A.Correct.
10 Q.Andforwardsthatemailtoyou,theonethatsays:
11 "Pleasecouldyoulookatthesuggestiongoingto
12 boardlevel."
13 A.Correct.
14 Q.Andsays:
15 "Derek.
16 "Followingourinterviews,salarieswereidentified
17 asbeinganissue..."
18 Theonlyinterviewsthatwehaveevidenceofare
19 interviewson1May,theonesItookyoutowiththe
20 interviewnotes.Doyouremember?
21 A.Sorry,canyousaythatagain?
22 Q."Derek,
23 "Followingourinterviews,salarieswereidentified
24 asbeinganissue..."
25 That'sMrMcAlindontellingyouthat‐‐
31
1 A.Itis‐‐2 Q.‐‐attheinterviews‐‐3 A.‐‐butyouweresayingitwasjustthoseinterviews.4 Idon'tknowwhetherit'sthoseinterviewsorother5 interviews.6 Q.Okay.Doyouknowofsomeotherinterviewsthat7 MrMcAlindonhadatthattime?8 A.Hewasdoinganinvestigation,sohewouldhavebeen9 conductinginterviews.
10 Q.Withwhom?I'minterestedtohear?11 A.Ihavegotnoidea.12 Q.Youhavenoidea?Okay.Ifwedon'thaveinterview13 notesfromhisinterviews,arewetopresumethatthere14 arenosuchinterviews?15 A.Yes,thatinfersthat.16 Q.Okay,Ihavetakenyoutothetwointerviewnotesthat17 hehasprovided,oneforMrsFrondigounandone18 MrMsO'Brien.Thosearethetwointerviews?19 A.Okay.20 Q."Followingourinterviews,salarieswereidentifiedas21 beinganissue,whichIaskedCaroltoreview."22 Doyousee?23 A.Okay.24 Q.SoitdoeslooklikeyouknewthatitwasMrMcAlindon25 whowasthepersonwhohadstartedtheballrollingwith
32
1 CarolSlarkaboutthesesalaryreviews?2 A.OnlyatthepointIreceivedtheemail.3 Q.Yes.AndMrMcAlindonsays:4 "Herproposalsseemappropriateandreasonable,and5 Ifeelshouldbeapproved.Couldyouauthorisethis,6 shouldIpasstheproposaltosomeoneelsetoreviewor7 shouldweleaveitonhold?"8 That'sjusttoyou,personally.Doyousee?9 A.Correct.
10 Q.Andyoureplyatpage450.{E/97/450}Itappearsthat11 initially,therewassomeproblemsendingthe12 attachment,butifyougotothetop,itlookslikethe13 attachmenthasgotthroughandyouwrite:14 "Mel.15 "Thanksfortheemail.16 "IagreewithCarol'ssentimentsbutweneedto17 discusstheproposalswithLegal...sonoactionyet."18 Doyousee?19 A.Correct.20 Q."WemayneedDirectorsapprovalforthissortofaction21 (daytodaybusiness)."22 A.Correct.23 Q.Socomingbacktoit,thesesalaryincreases,MsSlark24 wantedboardapproval.Ihavesuggestedtoyouthat's25 boardapprovaloftheemployercompanyorits‐‐
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33
1 A.Well,thereisastepinbetweenthat,becauseIthen2 wenttoCristinadelGrazia.3 Q.Yes.4 A.Andspoketoheraboutthis.5 Q.Yes.6 A.Followingthatconsultation,IwashappythatIcould7 continueastheAdirectorrepresentingDartford8 Visionplusandcouldmakethosedecisions.Soitdidn't9 needtogotoboard.
10 Q.SoyounowastheAdirectorofDartfordVisionplus?11 A.Correct.12 Q.Ihavetakenyoutothisatlengthandyouseemedto13 acknowledgethatDartfordVisionplusdoesn'thavean14 Adirector‐‐doesn'thaveAshareholdersand15 Bshareholders?16 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Itdoesn'thaveAshareholders;ithas17 Adirectors,doesitnot?18 MRSTUART:NotAdirectors,AandBdirectors.Ithas19 directors.ThesharesofDartfordVisionplusLimited20 arenotAandBshares,myLord.21 MRJUSTICENUGEE:No,Iunderstandthat.22 MRSTUART:AndsotherearenoAdirectors‐‐23 MRJUSTICENUGEE:TherearenoAshareholdersand24 Bshareholders,butI'mnotsurethatitfollowsthat25 therearenoAdirectorsandBdirectors.(Pause)
34
1 Ifonelooksat3.1.1‐‐thismaynotbetheright
2 momenttobehavingthisdebate,but3.1.1ofthe
3 shareholders'agreementsays‐‐{D/15/180}
4 MRSTUART:Whichcompany,myLord?
5 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Theshareholders'agreement.
6 MRSTUART:That'stheshareholderagreementforadifferent
7 company.
8 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.Itsays:
9 "TheDirectorsherebydelegatealltheirpowersof:
10 "3.1.1daytodaymanagementofthebusinessofthe
11 CompanyandanySubsidiarytotheAdirectors."
12 MRSTUART:Ofthe‐‐theAdirectorsaredifferent.
13 MRJUSTICENUGEE:TheAdirectorsarejustpeople.
14 MRSTUART:Yes,buttheAdirectorsaretheAdirectorsof
15 DartfordSpecsaversLimited.
16 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Theyaretheregisteredholdersofthe
17 AsharesinDartfordSpecsaversLimited,agreed.
18 MRSTUART:Yes.
19 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Butwhattheshareholders'agreement
20 seemstosayisthatthosepeopledelegatetheirpowers
21 ofmanagementofthesubsidiarytothepeopledescribed
22 asAdirectors.
23 MRSTUART:That'sright.TheAdirectorsofDartford
24 SpecsaversLimited,whoatthistimeareMsBirdiand,
25 accordingtoMrDyson,SOG,thosearetheAdirectorsof
35
1 DartfordSpecsaversLimited.They,theAdirectorsof
2 DartfordSpecsaversLimited,havepowersofday‐to‐day
3 managementofthesubsidiary.
4 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.Wemaybeatcrosspurposes.I'm
5 notsurethatitmatters.Myunderstandingisthatwhat
6 MrDysonhastoldmeisthatinthisrespect,following
7 aconversationwithMsdelGrazia,hetooktheviewthat
8 inhiscapacityasAdirector‐‐thatis,onbehalfof
9 SOG,whichwasthentheAdirectorofDartford
10 SpecsaversLimited,becauseitwastheAshareholder‐‐
11 hecouldtakeday‐to‐daymanagementdecisionsonbehalf
12 ofDartfordVisionplus.
13 MRSTUART:Thatseemstobewhatheissaying.
14 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
15 MRSTUART:Yes.
16 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Andyouweresuggestingtohim‐‐
17 MRSTUART:No,Iwasaskinghim,"Adirectorofwhich
18 company?"toseewhetherheactuallyhadanyactual
19 understandingofwhathewasdoingatall,because
20 Idon'tacceptthathedoes,butIwantedtojust
21 clarifywithhimwhathemeantbytheAdirectors.
22 IshisLordshipcorrect:whatyoumeantbythe
23 AdirectorsistheAdirectorsofDartfordSpecsavers
24 Limited?
25 A.Correct.
36
1 Q.ThoseAdirectorswereSOG,actingthroughyou,yousay?
2 A.Correct.
3 Q.AndMsBirdi?
4 A.Whowassuspended.Andherdutiesweresuspendedas
5 well.
6 Q.Whatduties?
7 A.AstheAdirectorofday‐to‐day.
8 Q.Howdoyousayyoususpendedherfromherdutiesas
9 adirectorofDartfordSpecsaversLimited?
10 A.Myunderstandingwasthatonceshewassuspendedasan
11 employee,shewasalsosuspendedofherpowersinterms
12 ofday‐to‐daymanagementandthereforewasnotactiveas
13 anAdirector.Thatismyunderstanding.
14 Q.Wheredidyougetthatunderstandingfrom?
15 A.ThroughconsultationwithLegal.
16 MRPOTTS:Ithinkthat'slikelytostrayintoprivilege,my
17 Lord.
18 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Hejustsaidit'sthroughconsultation
19 withLegal.
20 MRPOTTS:Ijustwanttomakeclearthereisnoway‐‐
21 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
22 MRSTUART:Allright.Andthenpage457;doyousee457?
23 {E/100/457}
24 A.Yes.
25 Q.22May,MrLunn.Now,whichdepartmentisMrLunn‐‐
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1 A.22May?2 Q.Yes,thebottomemailonpage457.Youhavetoread3 theminreverseorder.4 A.Oh,sorry.I'matthebottom,yes.5 Q.MrLunnon22MayiswritingtoMrRyan.MrLunnisin6 whichdepartment?7 A.MrLunnisthemanagerofthesharedventure.8 Q.He'ssharedventureportfolio.AndMrRyanisin9 businesstransfer;wehavealreadyhadhimtoday?
10 A.Correct.11 Q."HiMike.12 "ThelatestrumouristhattheGravesendpartners13 havebeenseenintheDartfordstorebecausetheyare14 buyingit?!15 "Areyouawareofthis?"16 Doyouseethat?17 A.Ido.18 Q.AndthenMrRyanrepliestoMrLunnonthetopandhe19 copiesinMrGlass,whoisthemanwhodidthat20 valuation,isn'the?21 A.Correct.22 Q.AndMrHowarth;whichdepartmentisMrHowarthin?23 A.Partnerrecruitment.24 Q.AndMrMarkham;whichdepartmentishein?25 A.Partnerrecruitment.
38
1 Q.Okay.Sowehavethebusinesstransferteamandpartner
2 recruitmentandthesharedventuredepartmentinthis
3 emailandthere,MrRyanissayingtoMrLunn:
4 "HiNeil.
5 "Wearenotatthemomentseekingbuyersforany
6 sharesinDartford."
7 Doyouseethat?
8 A.Ido.
9 Q.SoitwouldappearthatSOG'spositionasat22May,or
10 23Mayatleast,wasthatyouarenotsellingthePatel
11 sharesthatyouhaveacquiredthreemonthsearlier?
12 A.Notatthistime,no.
13 Q."TheGravesendpartnershaveaskedtobeconsidered
14 if/whensharesareforsale.
15 "ThisisinMel'srealmatthemoment."
16 TheonlythinginMel'srealmatthatmoment,
17 22May,wouldbeMsBirdi'sposition,wouldn'tit?
18 A.Well,MrMcAlindonisstillcontinuingwiththe
19 investigation.MrRyanis,atthemoment,notbringing
20 thosesharesforsalebecauseit'snotareallygood
21 time.It'sinappropriate.Wedon'tknowwhatthe
22 outcomeisgoingtobe,andintroducingotherpartners
23 inatthistime,IwouldimaginethatMrRyanissaying,
24 "Weneedtogetclarityontheoutcomeandtheprocess
25 that'scurrentlygoingon",isthewaythatIwould
39
1 understandit.
2 Q.Okay.PerhapsIshouldhaveaskedyou:didyouhaveany
3 knowledgeofthisatthetime?Youwereoverseeing‐‐
4 A.No‐‐
5 Q.‐‐allofthesedepartmentsand‐‐
6 A.‐‐Ihadknowledgeofthisemail,no,orthis
7 correspondence.
8 Q.Orthisdecision,thisdecisionthatyouarenotselling
9 atthismoment.Wereyouawareofthat?
10 A.IwasawarethatMrRyanandIhaddiscussedwhetherit
11 wasappropriateandthat'swhatIjustsaid:wedecided
12 thatuntilthiswasproperlyinvestigatedandresolved,
13 weweren'tdoinganythingwiththeshareholding.
14 Q.Sowhenyousayitwasproperlyresolved,theonlything
15 toberesolvedwastheinvestigationintoMsBirdi?You
16 havealreadytoldthecourtthatyoustoppedthe
17 investigationintoMrPatelon20February,after
18 speakingtoMsdelGrazia?
19 A.Yes,andwhatIhavejustsaid,MrStuart,isthatat
20 thismomentintime,withwhatwasgoingon,the
21 disruptioninthestore,itwasnottherighttimeto
22 starthavinganotherdirectorbeingbroughtintothis
23 businesswhenwehavegotanotherdirectorinthe
24 businessbeinginvestigated.
25 Q.AndI'mgoingtosuggesttoyou,MrDyson,thattheplan
40
1 atthistimewasforMrMcAlindontocreateacaseto
2 getridofMsBirdisothatyou,SpecsaversOptical
3 Group,couldthenhavealloftheAsharesandyoucould
4 dowhatyoupleasedwiththestore.Thatis,eitherput
5 itintogroupventure,sharedventure,orsellthe
6 sharesthatyouacquiredfromMrPatelandyouwereto
7 acquirefromMsBirdi,atasignificantprofittoSOG?
8 A.No,that'snotcorrect.
9 MRJUSTICENUGEE:CanIaskyou:doIunderstandfromthe
10 answersyouhavejustgiventoMrStuartthatatthis
11 date,oneofthepossibleoutcomeswhichyouforesawto
12 MrMcAlindon'sinvestigationwasthatMsBirdiwould
13 loseherpositioninthestoreandthatyouwouldthen
14 haveallthesharesavailable?
15 A.Ithinkthere'stwothings,myLord.Oneiswhatyou
16 havejustsaidandthatis,therewasapossibilitythat
17 theoutcomecouldresultinMsBirdinotbeingthere;
18 butequally,therewasalsothesituationthatthestore
19 obviouslyhadbeenthroughquitealotofturmoil.We
20 didnotwanttointroduceanotherpartnerinto
21 abusinessthathadthosemattersoutstandingthat
22 hadn'tbeendealtwithorresolved.
23 Soweweren'ttalkingtoanybodyaboutthesharesin
24 Dartford,andthosewere,youknow,peopleinterestedin
25 MrPatel'sshares.Weparkedthatuntilwegotthe
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1 investigationandthedisciplinarycompleted.
2 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyou.
3 MRSTUART:Wasgroupventureapossibleoutcomeforthis
4 storeatthisstage?
5 A.Ofcourseit‐‐itmusthavebeenbecausewedon'tknow
6 whatthedecisionwasgoingtobemadebyMrRaines.
7 Q.WastheacquisitionofMsBirdi'sshares,ataprice
8 followingthedisciplinaryinvestigation,andthenthe
9 saleofbothsetsofsharestoanewsetofjointDOand
10 OO,soaJVpartnership‐‐wasthatapossibilityat
11 thisstage?
12 A.Theyareallpossibilitiesbecausewedon'tknowthe
13 outcomeoftheinvestigationorthedisciplinaryaction.
14 Q.ButyoudidhaveanideaofMrMcAlindon'sviewofthe
15 outcomeofthedisciplinary,didn'tyou,bythisstage,
16 becauseyoutoldhisLordshiponFridaythat
17 MrMcAlindonhadtoldyouthatshewasguilty,inhis
18 view?
19 A.Idon'trememberthatatall,I'mafraid.
20 Q.Allright.Didyouhaveaviewastothelikelihoodof
21 herguiltatthisstage?
22 A.No,Iknewthattheallegationswereveryseriousbut
23 Ihadnoviewontheoutcome.
24 Q.Okay.Sofinallyinthisbundle‐‐andIwouldliketo
25 beabletoputitaway‐‐youdealwiththebonus,or
42
1 ratherIdon'tseeyoudealingwiththebonus.The2 bonuscomesinatpage488.{E/104/488}3 DoyourememberMsSlarkhadsuggestednotonly4 salaryincreasestocertainmembersofstaff,butalso5 acompletenewbonusstructure.Doyouremember?6 A.Ido.7 Q.Didyouapprovethiscompletenewbonusstructure?8 A.Idid.9 Q.Sowhendidyoudothat?
10 A.WhenIwas‐‐atthepointwhenIwasconsideringthe11 salaryincreases,becauseitwaspartofthe12 communicationaroundthattime.13 Q.Wasit?Wheredoyousayyoucommunicatedthatthe14 bonusstructureshouldbeamendedinthisfundamental15 way?Idon'tthinkyouwerehereontheday,butwe16 wentthroughtheevidencetoseethedifferencebetween17 theoldtypeofbonusstructureandthenewbonus18 structure.It'sacompletelydifferentstructure,isn't19 it?20 A.It'sabonusstructure,yes.Wehavelotsofdifferent21 bonusstructures.Theychangeallthetimewithin22 Specsavers.Eachstorehastheirfavouriteofhowto23 motivatetheirstaff.Thishappenstobeonethathad24 beenusedinanotherstorethatMsSlarkhad25 obviously‐‐MrsGroveshadbeeninvolvedin.
43
1 Q.Okay.Didyouunderstandthattheeffectofthisbonus
2 structuremightbethatthestorecouldactuallyperform
3 worsethanithad‐‐
4 A.Andwhoseopinionisthat?
5 Q.Sorry?
6 A.Whoseopinionisthat?
7 Q.It'stheanalysisthatIthinkhasbeenagreedupon.
8 A.Ihavenotagreedanyanalysis.
9 Q.Okay.
10 A.Thisisabonusstructurewhichismotivatingstaff‐‐
11 samedaylastyear‐‐todrivethesalesforward.If
12 theydrivethesalesforwardbyworkingtogetherasteam
13 theywillget10percent‐‐theywillget£10for
14 a10percentincrease.It'sself‐funding.It's
15 aself‐fundingbonusscheme.
16 Q.Okay,butdidyouunderstandthatitworksthisway:the
17 calculationisdonebytakingaweek,salesforaweek.
18 Doyouunderstandthat?
19 A.I'mlisteningtoyou,yes.
20 Q.Andthendividingtheweek'ssalesfigure‐‐let'ssay
21 £18,500fromthepreviousyear‐‐dividingthatby
22 six‐‐notweightedtotakeaccountofthefactthat
23 SaturdaysalwayshavehugelymoreturnoverthanMondays,
24 butsimplyastraightdivisionbysix.Soyoutakethe
25 £18,500,youdivideitbysixandyouget£3,085forone
44
1 dayandthen,ifthestoredoesbetterthan£3,085‐‐do
2 youunderstand?
3 A.Idounderstand,MrStuart.I'mjustlookingfor
4 areferencepointwherewhatyouaresayingisthebonus
5 structure.
6 Q.Thisisthebonussuggestion.Didyouunderstandhow
7 thisbonuswastowork?
8 A.Ihaven'tseenthisdocumentuntilyouhavetakenmeto
9 itnow,so‐‐
10 Q.Sowhatbonusschemedidyouapprove,becauseyouare
11 themanwhoapprovedthenewbonusscheme?
12 A.Myunderstandingatthetimewasthatthiswouldbesame
13 daylastyear,andthatwouldbecomethetargetforthe
14 dayandeverybodywasthenchargedwithtryingto
15 improvethatturnoverforthatdaybyeither10percent
16 or20percent,inordertoearnabonus.
17 Q.Isee.Soyouthoughtthestorerecordsfor1June2006
18 wouldhaveaturnoverforthatday,andthenon
19 1June2007,underthenewbonusscheme,onewould
20 simplycomparetheturnoverfor1June2007with
21 1June2006andif‐‐
22 A.Samedaylastyear.
23 Q.Samedaylastyear‐‐andiftheturnoverhadgoneupby
24 20percent,theneachofthemembersofstaffwhowere
25 ontheteamwouldget£20?
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1 A.Thatwasmyunderstanding,yes.
2 Q.Thatisnotactuallyhowthebonusworked.
3 A.Atthetime,Ididn'thavethis.Ididn'tknowthat
4 thiswasthescheme.Iunderstoodit,atthetime
5 Iapprovedit,tobetheoneIhavejustdescribed.
6 Q.Okay.Sowhatdocumentsrelatingtoabonusschemedid
7 youhaveavailabletoyouwhenyoumadethatdecision?
8 A.Ican'tremember.
9 Q.Yousee,Ihavetakenyoutopage447.{E/95/447}Do
10 youremember?Andthesalaryreview,iethepage448,
11 {E/95.1/448}thatyoudidhave.It'sanattachment‐‐
12 A.Yes.
13 Q.‐‐toanemailtoyou.Doyouseethat?
14 A.Yes.
15 Q.Ican'tseethatyouhadanynoticeoforinputintothe
16 newbonusscheme?
17 A.IwasawareofitbecauseIcanrememberit.How
18 Ibecameawareofit‐‐Ican'tansweryourquestion,
19 MrStuart.
20 Q.Okay.Doyouhaveanynotesofyourdecision‐making
21 processinreachingthis‐‐
22 A.No.
23 Q.Didyoudiscussitwithanyothermembersoftheboard,
24 ofanycompany?
25 A.No.
46
1 Q.Didyounotthinkitwouldbeappropriatetoatleast
2 involveMsBirdiinthiselement,becausethisbonus
3 schemewouldapplywhenshereturned,wouldn'tit?
4 A.Itwouldhaveappliedwhenshereturned,yes,but
5 Ididn'tconsiderit,no,becauseMsBirdiwassuspended
6 fromheremploymentandasfarasIunderstood,shealso
7 didn'thavethepoweroftheAsharedirectorforthe
8 day‐to‐dayresponsibilitythatIdidthroughSOG.
9 Q.Butit'shermoneyyouareauthorisingtobepaidaway,
10 isn'tit?
11 A.Well,no,atthistimewearealsoshareholders,the
12 Ashareholders,inthisstore.
13 Q.Yes,youwerepayinghalfyourownmoneyandhalfher
14 moneyaway?
15 A.Correct.
16 Q.AsanAshareholder,didyounotconsideritwouldbe
17 appropriatetoatleastcanvassheropinionasto
18 whetherafundamentalchangetothewholebonusscheme
19 thatwastoapplytoallherstaffhereafter‐‐
20 A.No,Ididn't.
21 Q.No?
22 A.No.
23 Q.Why?She'ssuspendedfrom‐‐
24 A.Becausewewereinchargeoftheday‐to‐day.Itwas
25 abonusschemereplacinganotherbonusscheme.Itwas
47
1 self‐funding,soitwasactuallynotgoingtocostthe2 businessanymoremoneybecauseiftheydidn'ttakethe3 10percentorthe20percent,therewasnopayout.4 Q.Thepreviousbonusstructurewasbasedonaweekly5 basis‐‐actuallyamonth,but‐‐andallthemembersof6 staffwhowereinvolvedinthebonus,theygottheir7 percentageoftheoverallbonus‐‐8 A.Iunderstandthat,MrStuart.9 Q.‐‐thatwasrecovered,dependinguponthemonth's
10 turnover.Underthisscheme,itcouldbethecasein11 agivenweekthatindays1,2,3,4,5oftheweek,the12 turnoverwasupby30percent.Soeverymemberof13 staffwhoworkedforthosefivedayswouldeachget£3014 aday.Sothat's£150bonusesforeachmemberofstaff,15 onaverage?16 A.Iunderstand.17 Q.Sohowmanymembersofstaffmighttherebe?Eight18 workingonagivenday?19 A.Icouldn'tanswerthatquestion.Idon'tknowthe20 structure.21 Q.Okay.Butitcouldbebonusesof£1,200ormoreearned22 forthosefivedays,andthenonthesixthday,there23 mighthavebeenabadSaturday‐‐let'ssaySaturdaywas24 thesixthday?25 A.WhatIdounderstand,MrStuart,isifyoumotivate
48
1 peopleeveryday,ratherthangivingthemafigurethat
2 hasbeencalculatedonamonthandthenbrokendown,by
3 talkingtothestaffeveryday,raisingthechallengeof
4 theday,motivatingthem,youhavegotmorechanceof
5 achievingyourobjectivesthanyouhavebyjustsimply
6 saying,"Ifwedosomething,youwillgetsomething".
7 Thiswasabout,eachday,membersofstaffbeing
8 reallyfocusedabouthelpingtodrivethebusiness
9 forward,andIdon'tconsiderthatthat'sabadthing,
10 andiftheydidit,itwasself‐funding.Andinyour
11 scenario,wheresomedaysitmightnothavehappened,it
12 maynothavehappened,butoverallinmyopinion‐‐and
13 I'vebeeninvolvedinretailandinSpecsaversand
14 bonusesforalongtime‐‐itsoundedtobelike
15 areallygoodscheme.
16 Q.Iftheneteffectofitwasthatif,inagivenmonth,
17 verysubstantialbonuses‐‐thousandsofpounds‐‐could
18 bepayabletothestaff,butforthatmonth,theoverall
19 turnoveractuallywentdowncomparedwiththeprevious
20 year‐‐
21 A.Ifthathadhappened,bearinginmindweareincharge
22 oftheday‐to‐dayastheAshareholder/thedirectorin
23 thestore,anditwascostingustoomuchmoneyandit
24 actuallyhadn'tworked,wewouldhavestoppeditbecause
25 wewouldhaveexaminedtheperformanceofthebonus
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49
1 scheme.Thesearenotsetinstoneanditdoesn'tmean
2 thatyoucan'tchangethem.
3 Q.Allright.Youcanputawaythatbundle.
4 MyLord,Iseethetime.
5 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
6 MRSTUART:Isthat‐‐
7 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.Wewilltakeafive‐minutebreak.
8 (11.41am)
9 (Shortbreak)
10 (11.49am)
11 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes,MrStuart.
12 MRSTUART:MrDyson,fromparagraph67onwardstoabout87,
13 aboutthenext20paragraphsofyourfirstwitness
14 statement,{C/9/103}youdealwiththeissueofwhatyou
15 describeas"Emergencymanagementcover"andthesevery
16 substantialcoststhatgotchargedtoDartford.Doyou
17 remember?Saidtobeforthemanagementcoverforthe
18 Dartfordstore.Doyourememberthat?
19 A.Irememberthecostoftheemergencymanagementcover,
20 yes.
21 Q.Therearetwoelementstoit.Thereistheemergency
22 managementcoveritself,sothepeoplelikeMsSlarkor
23 MrSeanMcLaughlin,whocameinlater,thereisacost
24 orchargethatisappliedinrelationtotheirinput.
25 Andthenthereareothercostsandchargesrelatingto
50
1 theinvestigationintoMsBirdi,includingthe2 disciplinaryprocess,MrRaines,etcetera.Sothere3 arethosetwoelementstoit.4 WouldyoujustbetakentobundleE3.Startat5 page506.{E/109/506}Doyouhavethat?6 A.Ihave.7 Q.Youarecc'edonanemailfromMrMcAlindonto8 KellyTurian.Doyousee?9 A.Yes.
10 Q.IsKellyTurian‐‐doyouknowwheresheis?11 A.Ihavenoidea.Ihavenoideawhosheis.12 Q.Okay.Anyway,thesubjectis:13 "ConsultancyInvoicesDartford."14 Doyouseethat?15 A.Yes.16 Q."Kelly.17 "Couldyoupleasearrangeforpaymentofthese18 invoices,andtakethisemailasauthorisationfor19 payment?20 "Mel."21 Doyouseethat?22 A.Ido.23 Q."TheseinvoicesareforworkcarriedoutattheDartford24 storeformanagingthedaytodaymanagementofthe25 businesswhiletheDirectorissuspended."
51
1 Doyouseethat?
2 A.Yes.
3 Q.Ifwecouldjusttakeonestepback,therearetwo
4 directors,Adirectors,oftheDartfordstoreatthis
5 point,accordingtoyou.OneisMsBirdi?
6 A.Correct.
7 Q.Sheissuspended,yousay.AndtheotherisSOG/you?
8 A.Correct.
9 Q.YouhavetoldhisLordship‐‐justinthelasthourthe
10 evidenceyouweregivingwasthatyouweretakingthese
11 decisionsanddoingallofthisasyourday‐to‐day
12 management.Youweretakingovertheday‐to‐day
13 managementofthestore,asanA‐‐
14 A.I'mnotsurethatIsaidthat.WhatIsaidwasthatin
15 respectofthewages,whichiswhatweweretalking
16 about,thenthatdefinitelywasundertheday‐to‐day
17 managementdecision.
18 Q.Butyouweretakingovertheday‐to‐daymanagementof
19 thestore,yousay,includingthewagesandthebonuses
20 andanythingelsethatmighthavehappened,andyouwere
21 doingthatasAshareholder.Capital"A"shareholder.
22 A.Correct.
23 Q.Now,asAshareholder,youarenotentitledtocharge
24 forthat,areyou?
25 A.Chargewhat?
52
1 Q.Chargethestoreforcarryingouttheday‐to‐day2 management;thatistheobligationofanAshareholder3 undertheshareholderagreement?4 A.Thecostofallday‐to‐daymanagementinthe5 shareholders'agreementistheresponsibilityofthe6 store.Sothepaymentofitisforthestoretopay7 thosecosts,myunderstanding.8 Q.Why?9 A.Becausethat'swhatitsaysintheshareholders'
10 agreement.11 Q.Where?12 A.Idon'tknowexactlywhere,butIdoknowthereis13 areferencetoitintheshareholders'agreement.14 Q.IhadbettertaketoyouitbecauseIwouldliketosee15 it.D1,page177istheshareholderagreement.16 {D/15/177}17 A.Sorry,canyougivemethereferenceagain,MrStuart?18 Q.177isthebeginningoftheshareholderagreement.19 Thereisapowerofmanagement,delegatedby3.1on20 page180.{D/15/180}So:21 "...alltheirpowersof:22 "3.1.1daytodaymanagementofthebusinessofthe23 CompanyandanySubsidiarytotheAdirectors."24 So,thetwoAdirectorshaveallthepowersof25 day‐to‐daymanagement;doyousee?
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1 A.No,Idon'tsee.Which‐‐2 Q.Page180?3 A.Ihavegotthat.4 Q.Atthetop,3,management?5 A.Yes.6 Q.3.1:7 "TheDirectorsherebydelegatealltheirpowers8 of...9 "3.1.1daytodaymanagementofthebusinessofthe
10 CompanyandanySubsidiarytotheAdirectors."11 Sothatisadelegationofallthepowersof12 managementtothetwoAdirectors.Doyouseethat?13 A.Ido.14 Q.Andthenunder3.2thereisalistofthingswhichare15 notday‐to‐daymanagement,soyoucan'tbedoingthisas16 anAdirector,simplyasanAdirector.Notday‐to‐day17 managementincludes:18 "3.2.8theemploymentordismissalofofficersor19 staffatsalariesorratesofpayinexcessof£10,00020 perannum..."21 Justwhilstweareonthefigures,£440aday‐‐22 A.Correct.23 Q.‐‐fiveorsixdaysaweekisbetween£2,200,fivedays24 aweek,or£2,640,sixdaysaweek.52weeksayear.25 It'ssomewherebetween£110,000and£150,000ayear.
54
1 A.Onanextrapolationitis,yes.
2 Q.Inthiscaseit'snot‐‐asitturnedout,it'snoteven
3 muchofanextrapolation,but,yes.Perannumit's‐‐
4 A.Whentheemergencymanagementcoverwentintohere,we
5 couldneverhaveenvisageditwouldtakeussixmonths
6 inordertogettheinvestigationandthedisciplinary
7 completed,andthere'sanumberofreasonsforthat,in
8 termsofcancellationofmeetings,MsBirdibeing
9 incapacitatedthroughillness,etcetera,etcetera.
10 Soalthoughthefigureendsupat£65,000,whenwe
11 startoffonthejourneyinordertoprovideemergency
12 managementcover,webelieveatthattimeitwouldbe
13 foramuchshorterperiodoftime.
14 Sothe£65,000isabignumber,butit'sbecauseof
15 theamountoftimethatwearehavingtocoverthe
16 emergencymanagementcoverinthestore.
17 Q.Aboutsevenoreightmonths'worth?
18 A.Yes.
19 Q.Soperannum,£100,000‐‐
20 A.Iunderstandthepointyouaremakingandthat'sthe
21 extrapolationforayear,yes.
22 Q.Well,no,I'mjustapplyingthis.Thissays:
23 "Theemploymentordismissalofofficersorstaffat
24 salariesorratesofpayinexcessof10,000per
25 annum..."
55
1 Ifyouaregoingtopaysomebody£440aday,they2 aregoingtoincur£10,000‐‐notperannum;theyare3 goingtoincur£10,000inlessthanamonth.4 A.Sorry,thispointisaroundtheemploymentordismissal5 ofstaff.6 Q.Yes.7 A.Thisis‐‐thispointhereisnotcoveringthecoverof8 emergencymanagementcover.9 Q.Okay.SoI'masking‐‐fine,soyousayit'snotunder
10 thatpartthatyouareexercisingsomepowerorroleor11 righttoappointthisemergencymanagementcoverthat12 youhavedone.13 Sowhereisit?Thisiswherewestartedthis14 littlesection.Iaskedyouwheredidyougetthat15 powerfrom;yousaidit'sintheagreement;Isaid,no,16 it'snot.17 A.Theday‐to‐daymanagementofthebusinessofthe18 company.Soall‐‐thatisfortheday‐to‐day19 managementofthecompanyandthereforeItakeitthat20 allcostsforday‐to‐daymanagementofthatcompany21 wouldbechargedtothecompany.22 Q.Soyouarenowsayingthattheappointmentof23 CarolSlarkandthenMrMcLaughlinandallofthatis24 day‐to‐daymanagement?25 A.Ithastobe,becauseit'smanagingtheday‐to‐day‐‐
56
1 it'semergencymanagementcover.
2 Q.No,theyarethemselvesmanagingtheday‐to‐daybusiness
3 ofthecompany?
4 A.Iunderstandthat.
5 Q.Buttoinstallthem,toinstallthatlayerofmanagement
6 intothebusiness,isnotitselfamatterofday‐to‐day
7 management,isit?
8 A.It'snotamatteritselfofday‐to‐daymanagement?
9 Q.IfMsBirdiwantedtoputinaconsultantintothe
10 business,payingthatconsultant£5,000amonthtocarry
11 outsomeoftheday‐to‐daymanagementfunctionsthatshe
12 wouldotherwiseherselfhavetodobecausesheisan
13 Adirector,thatconsultantisdoingtheworkof
14 day‐to‐daymanagingthebusiness,butthedecisionto
15 appointthatpersontocarryoutthattask,that
16 decisionisnotday‐to‐daymanagement,isit?
17 A.No,it'snot.
18 Q.No,nordoyousuggestthatitis.Sowecomebackto:
19 ifit'snotday‐to‐daymanagement,thedecisiontoput
20 inMrsSlarkat£440,oratanyprice,andit'snot
21 day‐to‐daymanagementandit'snot3.2.8,theemployment
22 ofofficersorstaff,wheredoyousayyouhavethe
23 powertodothisandimposethis£110,000ayearcoston
24 abusinesswhoseprofitsinthepreviousyearwere
25 £46,000?
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1 A.ThestoreisnowwithouttheAdirectorthatwehave2 dismissedandwithouttheotherAdirector,MsBirdi,3 whoissuspended.4 Q.Butithasyou.Youhaveriddentotherescue;youhave5 purchasedMrPatel'ssharesandyouarenowthe6 Adirector?7 A.Iunderstandthat,sowehavetoprovidecovertorun8 thestoreforday‐to‐day,sosomebodywholeadsthe9 activitiesofthestore.
10 Q.Yes,youcouldgothereyourself?11 A.Andmyunderstandingisthatallactivitiesthatareto12 dowiththerunningofthestoreundertheday‐to‐day13 management,whicheffectivelytheyarecarryingout,is14 chargedtothestore.15 Q.Yes,butwhy?16 A.Becauseitneedsleadershipanditneedsthefocusof17 somebodyinthestoreonadailybasis,leadingthe18 teams.19 Q.YouaretheAdirector?20 A.Iunderstandthat.21 Q.Youneedtogivethefocusandtheleadership.Youhave22 suspendedMsBirdifrombeingabletogivethe23 leadershipandthefocus.That'sadecisionyouhave24 made,justyou,notthecompany;that'sright,isn'tit?25 A.Canyousaythatagain,MrStuart?
58
1 Q.YouhavemadeadecisiontosuspendMsBirdisoshecan
2 nolongergivertheleadership‐‐
3 A.Correct.
4 Q.‐‐inthestore?
5 A.Correct.
6 Q.Youhavetogivetheleadershipinthestore,theother
7 Adirector,SOG.Whatgivesyoutherighttochargethe
8 store£110,000or£120,000ayearfordelegatingyour
9 leadershipfunctiontoanominee,MsSlarkor
10 MrMcLaughlinoranyoneelseyouchoosetodoit?What
11 givesyoutherighttoputthatcostagainstthestore?
12 A.Becausewearelookingafterandprotectingthe
13 interestsofDartfordstore,andasashareholder,
14 Bshareholder,thenwehavetakenthedecisiontoput
15 thatcoverinthereinordertomakesurethatweare
16 lookingafterthebusinessandactinginthebest
17 interestsofthebusiness.Andthewaythatwedothat
18 isbythemethodologywehaveused,becausetheseare
19 thebestpeopleavailabletous,sowehavemadethatas
20 thedecisiononhowtocontinueforthisstoretorun.
21 Q.Allright.Lookingatpage506then,MrMcAlindon,who
22 istheinvestigationdepartment‐‐{E/109/506}
23 A.Sorry,50...?
24 Q.506.Heistheinvestigationdepartment,isn'the?
25 A.Yes.
59
1 Q.Heisnotyou.HeisnotSOG.Heistheinvestigator.2 Whathewantstodoishewants:3 "Canyoupleasechargethemtomyincomebudget..."4 A.Hewantstochargetherightthatwehaveagreedat5 boardforMrMcAlindon'steaminprovidingtheservices.6 Q.Hm‐mm.Yousaythatinyourwitnessstatement,that7 thisrateof£440wasagreedattheboard?8 A.Correct.9 Q.BywhichyoumeantheboardofSOG?
10 A.Correct.11 Q.Canyouproduceanyevidenceofthat?12 A.IunderstandthatwetriedtofindthatbutIwasthere13 onthedaythatIproposedthattotheboard.Iwas14 therewhentheboardacceptedit.15 Q.Butthereisnominuteofthatmeeting,ofthat16 decision?17 A.Ican'tanswerthatquestionbecauseIdidn'tgolooking18 forit,butIunderstandwehavesearchedforitandto19 noavail.20 Q.Tonoavail.Whendidthisallegeddecisiontakeplace?21 A.Itwouldhavebeensometimearound2002,butIam22 guessing.23 Q.WasMrMcAlindoninvolvedinthedecision?24 A.Well,MrMcAlindonwouldhaveprovidedtherationale25 behindtheproposal.
60
1 Q.So‐‐2 A.Thisisablendedrate.Thisistoincorporatethe3 costsof‐‐youknow,thepeoplewhoattendthestore4 are,inthemain,intheLossPreventionteam.It's5 theirsalary,it'stheirtravel,it'stheir6 accommodation,it'stheirlivingawayfromhome7 allowances,it'stheirmeals.So£440adayas8 ablendedcost,whenyouputitinthoseterms,isthe9 truecostofwhatitcostsustodothesupportandthe
10 investigation.11 Q.Iswhatyounowsay,butyou‐‐12 A.No.13 Q.‐‐havenoevidenceofthatblendedcost‐‐14 A.That'swhatIhavealwayssaidsinceweagreed£44015 aday,awayback,sometimearound2002.16 Q.Hesaysheisinvoicing£440aday,sothatisthe17 investigationdepartmentisinvoicing£440adayforher18 services?19 A.Well,theyareunderhiscontrolandhisratefor20 investigatingandsupportingastoreis£440aday.21 Q.Whoagreedtopayher£400aday?22 A.IbelievethatwasMrMcAlindon.23 Q.Soyoudidn'tplayanypartinthat?24 A.No.25 Q.Didheaskyou?
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1 A.No.
2 Q.Itseemsalot,£400aday,giventhatMrMcLaughlinwas
3 £200aday?
4 A.IunderstandthatMrMcLaughlinwas£200aday,yes.
5 Q.Sodoubleseemsanawfullot?
6 A.TheratethatMrMcAlindonchargedwastheratethatwe
7 hadagreedatboardforhimprovidingservicesto
8 stores,eitherthroughsupportorthroughinvestigation.
9 Q.I'mnottalkingabouttheratethathecharges;I'm
10 talkingabouttheratethatheagreedtogiveto
11 MsSlarkfordoingwhatshehadtodo.
12 A.Well,MsSlarkisoneoftheveryfewpeoplethatwere
13 availablewiththerequiredleadershipskills,
14 knowledge,understandingofourbusiness,toprovide
15 thatsortofsupport.Wearenotfishinginapond
16 wheretherearehundredsofpeople;it'saverysmall
17 pond.AndifMrsSlarksayssheischarging£400,then
18 MrMcAlindonhastobasethatonthefactthathehasn't
19 gotaqueueofpeoplewaitingtodothis.
20 Q.ThetruthisthatSOGseekstochargetheindividual
21 storesasmuchasitthinksitcangetawaywith?
22 A.That'snottrue.
23 Q.Andasevidenceofthat,wesee,forexample,page546.
24 {E/128/546}Aswellasallofthecostsofthe
25 emergencymanager,youalsochargethestoresallofthe
62
1 costsoftheinvestigationitself,don'tyou?
2 A.Wedo.
3 Q.AndweseeanemailfromMrHamilton,whoisthemanwho
4 youhaveputinalongsideMrMcAlindonatthisstage?
5 A.Yes.
6 Q.AndheiswritingtoLindaWeaver,whoIunderstandis
7 MarkRaines'sPA?
8 A.Correct.
9 Q.Soyoumustknowherquitewell?
10 A.Imustknow...?
11 Q.Youmustknowherquitewell?
12 A.Linda?Yes,Idoknowher.
13 Q.I'mnotsurequitewhatMrRaines'sinvolvement‐‐why
14 isMrRaines'sPAdealingwithMrHamilton's
15 investigationcharges?
16 A.HeisdealingwithMrHamilton's...?
17 Q.Investigationcharges.Look,hesays:
18 "Linda.
19 "JusttoconfirmcoststobeattributedtoDartford
20 retheInvestigation..."
21 A.BecauseMrHamiltonworksforMrRaines.
22 Q.Okay:
23 "IpresumeOwenwillchargethemforBina.
24 "Alsoifyouneedthecostofmyroom/foodand
25 airportparkingtheywere£77.70and£41.50
63
1 respectively.Thenthere'sthecarhire.
2 "I'dscrew'emforeverything!!!"
3 IsthatanappropriatewaytospeakaboutyourJV
4 partners?
5 A.No,it'snot.
6 Q."I'dscrew'emforeverything!!!"
7 Exclamationmarks.Isthatthewayyouspeakover
8 there?
9 A.No.
10 Q.ItlookslikeLindaWeaverdoes.LindaWeaver,because
11 shesaysatthetopofpage546‐‐herresponseis:
12 "Iagreehaha."
13 Isthatappropriate?
14 A.No.
15 Q.No.ItlookslikeMrRainesandhisPA,atleast,
16 consideritappropriatetochargethestoreasmuchas
17 youcanpossiblygetawaywith?
18 A.IthinkthatMrRaineswouldnotagreewiththatand
19 thesetwocommentsinhereareextremelyunfortunateand
20 Idon'tcondonethem,andIwasunawarethatthiswas
21 beingsaidatthetime.
22 Q.Okay.Swiftlyon.582.{E/138/582}28June.
23 MsGroves'sinvoicesforJunearenowbeingforwarded
24 on,underthesubjectheading,"Sensitivematter"?
25 A.582?
64
1 Q.Yes.DoyouknowwhoKellyTurianis?
2 A.No.Youaskedmethatearlier.Idon'tknow.
3 Q.Okay.Yourinvolvementatthistime,June2007,
4 lateJune,seemstobethis.Page588.{E/139/588}You
5 areobviouslyspeakingtoMrMcAlindonaboutthisandhe
6 isemailingyou;doyouseeatthetopofthepage:
7 "To:DerekDyson.
8 "From:MelMcAlindon."
9 Doyouseethat?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.7.24inthemorning:
12 "Derek.
13 "Ithoughtyoumightbeinterestedinthisemail,
14 CarolGrovesveryhappy.Notbadformeeitherasshe
15 hasseentheothersidenowandnowappreciatesthework
16 wedoindealingwithbadeggs..."
17 IsMsBirdia"badegg",MrDyson?
18 A.MsBirdi'sobviouslyhadseriousallegationsputagainst
19 herforseriousthingsthatwerebeingconsideredbythe
20 disciplinary.
21 Q.Butatthispoint,wehadn'thadanydisciplinary
22 hearing,hadwe?MrRaineshadn'tstartedyet?
23 A.No,Iknowthat.
24 Q.Sheisnota"badegg"yet,surely?
25 A.No,that‐‐I'mnotagreeing.Thisisobviously
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65
1 acommentthathasbeenmadebyMrMcAlindon.
2 Q.Hm‐mm.IsthisindicativeofMrMcAlindon'sviewof
3 her,asfarasyouwereaware,atthistime?
4 A.Sorry,canyoujustrepeatthatagain?
5 Q.Isthecomment"badeggs"‐‐plainlyreferringto
6 MsBirdi‐‐isthatindicativeofMrMcAlindon'sviewof
7 MsBirdiataroundthistime?
8 A.Theanswermustbehemustdo,becausethat'swhathe
9 haswritten.
10 Q.Yes.Presumablyyouwerehavingconversationswithhim
11 inthisperiod,April,May,June2007,regarding
12 DartfordandMsBirdi?
13 A.NotthatI'mawareof.Youcanpointmetothe
14 correspondence.
15 Q.No,thereisno‐‐therearenonotes,thereareno
16 memosofyourconversations.Inthewholeofthe
17 15bundles,wedon'thave‐‐
18 A.Yes,butIthinkyouhaveto‐‐wehavealreadytalked
19 aboutitbutyouhavetoappreciate,Idon'tsitthere
20 worryingaboutonestoreoutofnearly1,000stores.
21 I'vegotabigreportingstructure.I'minvolvedin
22 internationalexpansionand,youknow,thisisnotstuff
23 that'sonmyagendaeverysingleday,unlessI'mcalled
24 tomakesomedecision.
25 Q.MsGrovesreferstogeneratingherownlittlegoldmine.
66
1 Doyouseeinthesecondparagraphofheremail?Was
2 Dartfordalsoalittlegold‐‐
3 A.Sorry,canyoupointmetothat?
4 Q.Yes.SothesecondparagraphofMsGroves'semail,
5 whichwasforwardedtoyou,says:
6 "IunfortunatelyhavetorequestthatIceasework
7 attheDartfordstoreonthe13thJulydueto
8 commitmentsrequiredinpreparationofmynewstoreand
9 thefactthatIwishtotryandgetaholidaybefore
10 Iputmyheaddownandgeneratemylittlegoldmine."
11 Doyousee?
12 A.Correct.
13 Q.SoshehadbeenapprovedbyyoutobecomeaJVpartner
14 atanotherstore;isthatright?
15 A.Yes,shewasalreadyaJVpartnerandshewaswaiting
16 fortheotheropportunitytocomeup.
17 Q.Okay.
18 Page592.{E/141/592}WedealwithMrPatel'sTHP
19 invoices.Didyouhaveanyroletoplayinauthorising
20 theseinvoices?
21 A.No.
22 Q.No.Okay,Iwon'taskyouaboutitthen.
23 Atpage637,{E/155/637}wehavetheissueof
24 MrPatel'sMercedesandpaymentsmadeinrelationtoit.
25 Didyouhaveanyroletoplayinrelationtopayment
67
1 ofmoniestoMrPatelinrelationtoa‐‐2 A.No.3 Q.No.Right,Iwon'taskyouaboutthat.4 Whowastakingthesedecisionsthen,ifitwasn't5 you,thedirector?Thesefinancialdecisions?6 A.Whenyousay"financialdecisions",itwouldalldepend7 onthesizeofthatandwhetheritwasinvoiced,and8 invoicesgoofftobepaidthroughaccountspayable.So9 it'snotmakingdecisions;itis‐‐it'sdueprocess.
10 Q.Theseweren'tdueprocess.ThisisMrPatel's‐‐some11 oftheinvoiceswereinhispersonalaccount.Notall12 ofthem,butsomeofthem,andthenthispaymentwasto13 MrPatelinrelationto‐‐14 A.ButMsGroveswouldn'tknowthat.Shejustbelieved15 thattherewereinvoicescomingintothestoreandshe16 wouldforwardthoseontotheappropriatedepartment.17 Q.Isee.Soyoudidn't‐‐youthinkshejustdealtwith18 itherself,withoutevenrealisingtheywereunusual?19 A.Correct.20 Q.Didyouspeaktoheraboutitatthetime,sothatyou21 gainthatview?22 A.DidI...?23 Q.Didyouspeaktoheratthetime,soyoucouldgainthat24 viewastowhatshewasupto?25 A.No,butsheisanexperiencedjointventurepartnerof
68
1 manyyearsandwouldbedealingwithitinthewaythat
2 shedealswithallinvoicesthatcomeintoourstore.
3 Q.Okay.Page643.{E/157/643}Thereseemstobesome
4 issueaboutMrMcAlindon'sdepartment'sbudgetataround
5 thistime;doyourecallthat?Youarecc'edonthe
6 emailjustbythefirstholepunch.
7 A.Okay.ShallIreadit?
8 Q.Youcando.(Pause)
9 A.I'vereadit.I'mnotsayingIunderstanditbutI've
10 readit.
11 Q.Okay.ItappearstobeanemailaboutMrMcAlindon's
12 department'sbudget?
13 A.Yes.
14 Q.Ifyoulookatpage644,forexample,thisisastring
15 ofemails.{E/157/644}So644atthetop,thisiscc'ed
16 toyou.It'sfromMelMcAlindontoLaura,whoisinthe
17 financialaccountancydepartment.
18 A.Yes.
19 Q.Heisthere‐‐ifyoulookatthethirdparagraphofhis
20 email,cc'edtoyou,itsays:
21 "Inrelationtotheincomebudget,Ihaveemailed
22 anexplanationtothispreviously.InMay,£85,185was
23 invoicedtostores,andinJune£30,043."
24 It'sallabouthisbudget,isn'tit?
25 A.Yes.
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1 Q.Doyourecalltherewasanissueabouthimhavingto
2 sortoutincomesothathisbudgetbalanced?
3 A.No,becausethisiswhatyouwouldfind,thistypeof
4 correspondence,forallcostcentreownerswhoare
5 responsibletomakesurethattheyaremanagingtheir
6 budgetcorrectly.
7 Q.Okay.HowmuchcontactdidyouhavewithMrsGrovesat
8 thistime,youpersonally?
9 A.None.
10 Q.Youmusthavespokentoher?
11 A.NotthatIcanrecollectatthismomentintime.
12 Q.What,inthewholeperiodshewasinthestoreyounever
13 spoketoheronce?
14 A.Imayhaveseenherataregionalmeetingthatwehave.
15 Itoldyouwemeetthepartnerseveryeightweeks.
16 Q.Yes.
17 A.Carolhadbeenachairmanofthatregion.SoifIwas
18 atthatmeeting,Imayhavespokentoher.
19 Q.Okay.
20 A.ButIdon'trecollect.
21 Q.Isee.Soyourmanagementas‐‐you'reactingas
22 AdirectoratthistimeoftheDartfordstore‐‐your
23 managementofthatstoredidn'tinvolveyou
24 communicatingwithMrsGroves?You,thedirector?
25 A.Notmepersonally.MrRainesmayhavebeentalkingto
70
1 her.2 Q.WhathasitgottodowithMrRaines?3 A.MrRainesisthepersonresponsibleforallstoresin4 theUK.5 Q.Right.6 A.Operations.7 Q.Butwhat'shisroleinrelationtoDartfordatthis8 time?9 A.Thesameasitisforeveryotherstore,andthatishe
10 isresponsibleforretailoperationsintheUK.He11 worksforSOS.Hehasateamofstoresupportmanagers12 andretailsupportmanagers,etcetera,andthat'shis13 role.14 Q.DidthatincludethentellingMsSlarkwhattodo?15 A.Ididn'tsaythat‐‐youaskedme‐‐16 Q.Ordiscussingwithherwhatsheshoulddo?17 A.Youaskedmewhether‐‐whoelsemayhavebeenin18 contactwithher.19 Q.Yes,aboutthemanagementofthestore,Iaskedyou.20 Areyousayinghewasinvolvedinthedecision‐makingof21 the‐‐22 A.No.23 Q.No.WhataboutMrMcAlindon?Hewas,ofcourse?24 A.Hewasprovidingtheemergencycover.25 Q.No,butsheworkedforhim,effectively?
71
1 A.Correct.
2 Q.And‐‐
3 A.ShewasprovidingtheemergencycoverintheDartford
4 store.
5 Q.Yes,forhim,andthenhewasdoingitforyou,
6 effectively?
7 A.HewasdoingittomakesurethattheDartfordbusiness
8 wascoveredwitheffectiveleadershipduringthetime
9 thatMsBirdiwasn'tavailable.
10 Q.Okay.Andflickonto650.{E/160/650}Bytheend
11 ofJulyMrsGrovesisleaving.Sheiswritingtoyou‐‐
12 toMrMcAlindonbutcopyingyouin,andAlisonAnderson.
13 Whyaregettinginvolvedinthatlevelofemail
14 correspondence?
15 A.Idon'tknow.Imean,Carolobviouslythinksit's
16 importanttohertoincludemeontheemail.Ihavegot
17 noreasonwhy‐‐Idon'tthinkthereisanyreasonother
18 thanherwantingtojustsendamessage.
19 Q.Fine.Finallyonthisquestionoftherate,the£440
20 rate?
21 A.Correct.
22 Q.Yousaythat£440wasaratewhichwasagreedinabout
23 2002?
24 A.I'mguessing.Iknowthatweestablishedthedepartment
25 aroundabout2000.Sobythetimeyouhavegotitup
72
1 andrunning,I'mguessingaround2002,butitis
2 aguess.
3 Q.Okay.TheLossPreventiondepartmenthadarateforits
4 storeauditingservice,didn'tit,of,Ithink,£300
5 aday?
6 A.That'scorrect.ThisisfortheNHSaudit.
7 Q.Well,notjustNHS,butstoreauditsthatcovered
8 anumberofthings?
9 A.Cashmanagement.
10 Q.Physicalsecurityreview?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Completereview,etcetera,etcetera.
13 Sothat's,forthewholedepartment'sworkon
14 astore,£300aday.Butyouaresaying£440adayjust
15 forhavingonepersonsittinginthestore?
16 A.Thesearetwodifferentfunctionalities.Oneisan
17 auditteamandoneisaninvestigationteam,andthe
18 auditteamcanplanahead,theycanmaybedomorethan
19 onestoreinaday.Therearelotsofreasonsand
20 rationalebehindtherate.Itisn'tjustaboutpurely
21 wantingtochargethesamerate.Therearetwo
22 differentpartsoftheLossPreventionteam.
23 Q.Okay.Wouldyougoto,justwhilstweareinE3‐‐
24 A.Sorry,Imissedthat.
25 Q.WhilstweareinE3,couldyouflicktopage700?
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1 {E/179/700}.Ishouldhavetakenyoutothisrightat
2 thebeginningofmycross‐examinationbutI'mgoingto
3 justcatchupnow.Page700.Doyouseeit?
4 Thisispage5ofthestore'spolicymanual.It
5 startsonpage696.Page696?Youwillseethe
6 document.
7 A.69...?
8 Q.696,StorePolicyManual,page1of54.Doyouseeit?
9 A.Yes.
10 Q.Andsopage700ispage5ofthatdocument.Soyouhave
11 thecontextofwhereweare?
12 A.Okay.
13 Q.Doyouseethat?
14 A.Yes.
15 Q.AndthisissignedoffbyDougPerkinsonpage701,
16 {E/179/701}nothissignaturebuthisname,anditsays
17 thatthecorevalues‐‐doyouseejustabovethefirst
18 holepunchonpage700?
19 A.Yes.
20 Q.Thecorevaluesarehonesty.Doyouseethat?
21 A.Yes.
22 Q.Hesays:
23 "Wedonotripoffourcustomers."
24 Butpresumablyyouwouldagreethatyoudon'tintend
25 toripoffyourJVpartnerseither?
74
1 A.Correct.
2 Q."Respectforothers:wetrytotreatpeopleaswewould
3 wishtobetreatedourselves."
4 ThatincludesyourJVpartners?
5 A.Itdoes.
6 Q.Sotheconductofsomeofyourstaffhasn'tlivedupto
7 thatinrelationtoMsBirdi.
8 A.Intermsofthecommentsthattheyhavemade,no.
9 Q.Okay:
10 "Partnership:ourobjectiveistomakeourpartners
11 successful."
12 That'sobviouslythepartnerswhoareinfavour,
13 ratherthanthebadeggs.
14 A.Themajorityofourpartnershipsareextremely
15 successful.
16 Q.Yes,quiteright,andthosethatarenotinthemajority
17 arethebageggs?
18 A.No,theonesthataren'tinthemajority,thepeople
19 thatmaybeintheamberorthered,wegivethemlots
20 ofsupporttohelpthemtotryandturnaroundtheir
21 businesses.That'swhywehavetheturnaroundpractice,
22 whichwementionedearlierin‐‐IremembermyLord
23 askingwhatTAPSwas.
24 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Canyouexplainamberandred.Isthis
25 somesortofcodebasedonfinancial‐‐
75
1 A.It'sintermsofperformance.Soyou'vegotthegreen
2 storesthatarejustreally,reallydoingreally,really
3 well.Youhavegotthestoresatthebottom,say
4 5percentofthestores,thatarenotaswellaswe
5 wouldwantthemtodo,andthenyouhavegotamassof
6 peopleinthemiddle,becausethere'salotofstores.
7 SoIwouldsay10to15percentatthetop,5percent
8 atthebottomandtherestoftheguysinthemiddle,
9 whoaresomewhereeithermovingupormaybemovingdown,
10 anddoweprovidethemmonitoringandsupport,tomake
11 surethattheyareassuccessfulastheycanbe.
12 MRSTUART:Okay.Page710,August2007.{E/184/710}The
13 Dartfordsalaryreview.Anewmanagerhascomeinat
14 thispoint.DoyourememberMsSlarkhasleftandnow
15 aninternalperson,ImogenCollar,hascomein?
16 A.Correct.
17 Q.Doyouseeon28AugustsheiswritingtoSusannahHart:
18 "Ineedassistanceandauthorisationtodoasalary
19 reviewforthestaffatDartford."
20 IdidaskyouaboutSusannahHartpreviously.What
21 businessofSusannahHart'sisthis?
22 A.Sheisaretailsupportmanager,supportingthefield
23 teams,providingthemwithinformation,dealingwith
24 enquiries,seeingpeopleinSOG,communicatingtothe
25 regionsthattheyareinchargeof,helpingtoprovide
76
1 information,whenwegoonourregionalmeetings,in
2 termsofslides.It'sallaboutsupportingthestores.
3 Q.MsCollarisreportingtoMrMcAlindon.Isthatright?
4 A.That'scorrect.
5 Q.Andsheisseekingauthorisationtodoasalaryreview
6 forthestaff.Wouldthiscomeuptoyou?Andwesee
7 youarecopiedinontheemail‐‐no,youarenot,I'm
8 sorry,youarenotevencopiedinontheemail.
9 A.No,Ihavegotnorecollectionofit.
10 Q.No.Sothisismyquestion:haveyousomehowauthorised
11 MsHarttonow‐‐
12 A.Miss?
13 Q.SusannahHart,orMrsHart,isit?‐‐tosomehownowbe
14 takingdecisionsonbehalfofthestore?
15 A.No.
16 Q.Sowhoisgoingtoauthorisethesalaryreviewifit's
17 notyoupersonally?
18 A.Well,it'snotgoingtobeauthorisedbecauseitwill
19 cometome.Ihavenoideawhatthisis.Ihavenever
20 seenitandneversawanycorrespondenceonit.Soit
21 clearlydidn'tcometomeandthereforedidn'tget
22 authorised.
23 Q.Okay.Sobythistime‐‐weareintolate
24 August2007‐‐you,SOG,haddecided,hadyounot,to
25 exitMsBirdifromthestore,sothatyoucanthen
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1 carry‐‐
2 A.Idon'tunderstandthecommentthatwehadmade
3 adecisiontoexitMsBirdi.
4 Q.I'mgivingyoutheopportunitytotellthehonesttruth.
5 Bythistimeyou,SOG,hadmadethedecisiontoexit
6 MsBirdifromthestoreandtoeffectoneoftheplans
7 whichIaskedyouaboutatthebeginningoftheday,
8 namelyeithertosellbothsetsofAsharestonewJVPs,
9 ortoenterintosomesortofsharedventure
10 arrangement,ortogogroupventureonthisstoreat
11 Dartford?
12 A.No.
13 Q.Allright.Gotopage711.Doyourecognisethis
14 document?Doyourecognisethisdocument?{E/185/711}
15 A.Specifically?No.
16 Q.Allright.Doyourecognisethetemplateforthis
17 document?
18 A.Ihaveseenthetemplatebefore,yes.
19 Q."Dartford(305)".Isthataninternalcodeforthe
20 storenumberatDartford?
21 A.Ithinkit'sthebranchnumber,yes.
22 Q.Yes:
23 "SharedVentureAssessment."
24 Whichteamthatworkedforyouwouldbeconducting
25 thesharedventureassessment?Whoseteam?
78
1 A.Thesharedventureteam.2 Q.UnderthecontrolofMr...?3 A.Lunn.4 Q.Lunn.Allright.Wehavegotdirector5 SwarandeepBirdi.Tradingdate,1995.Criteria1,6 residentpartner"promise".7 Andthecommentis:8 "DuetoanongoingLossPreventionexercisethereis9 nocurrentpromiseregardingthefuturestructureofthe
10 store.PartnersfromBexleyheathandGravesendhave11 expressedinterestintheopportunitybutnoindication12 hasbeengiven."13 Andthescorethatisthereforeappliedis+2.Do14 youseethat?15 A.Ido.16 Q.Soarewetotakeitfromthat,thatiftheresident17 partnersdonothaveanymoralorlegalpromisetostill18 beinthestore,youapplyapositivescoreindeciding19 whether‐‐20 A.Ihavegotnoidea.Idon'tunderstandtheword21 "promise".Idon'tunderstandthescoringsystem.22 Ihavenotseenthisdocumentuntilyoushowedtome23 today.24 Q.Isee,butyouhaveseenatemplatelikethis‐‐25 A.Ihaveseenthetemplate.
79
1 Q.‐‐withthesecriteriaonitandthewaythescoring2 systemworks;notforthisparticularstorebuttheway3 thesystemworks?4 A.Ihaveseenthesebefore.5 Q.Okay.Number2:6 "ReasonableSOGshareholding."7 Again,ascoreof+2andherewehaveit:8 "100percentofsharesshouldbeavailableoncethe9 LossPreventionsituationhasbeenconcluded."
10 That'sabitpresumptuous,surely,MrDyson?11 A.Well,Idon'tknowwhofilleditin;Idon'tknowwho12 completedit.Theyclearlywerenotaspartofthe13 managementdecisionatmylevelandtherewasnoplan,14 asyousaid,todoanythingotherthantoinvestigateit15 andtofollowitthroughwiththedisciplinary16 procedure.17 Q.Howisitclearlynotpartofthemanagementdecisionat18 yourlevel?Howisitclearlythat?Howdoweknow19 whosemanagementdecisionsareinthisandatwhat20 level?21 A.Itellyou,it'snotmymanagementdecision.Ihavenot22 seenthisbefore.Iwasnotpartytoitandithasno23 bearingonthedecisionsthatImade.24 Q.Themanwhoreportstoyou,MrLunn?25 A.Hedoesn'treporttome.Heworksinateamthat‐‐he
80
1 reportstoJillClark,whoreportstome.
2 Q.Yes.Someonehasgottheimpressionthat:
3 "100percentofsharesshouldbeavailableoncethe
4 LossPreventionsituationhasbeenconcluded.This
5 shouldgiveSOSsufficientscopetoattractabuyer."
6 Doyouseethat?
7 A.Ido.
8 Q.Someoneseemstobepresumingthattheoutcomeofthe
9 investigation,theLossPreventionsituation,willbe
10 thatMsBirdi'sshareswillbetransferredtoyou,to
11 SOS.Someone?
12 A.Someone,butnotme.
13 Q.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatitwaswiththe
14 knowledgeofyourentiredepartmentandtheirviewof
15 theDartfordsituationatthistime.
16 A.No,that'snottrue.
17 Q.Anyway,thatgotascoreof+2forwhateverisbeing
18 planned.Shallwejustskipdowntotheconclusion‐‐
19 no,let'sgoto9,"Professionalavailability":
20 "TheSouthEastisanareawhereourexistingShared
21 Venturestores(BexleyheathandBromley)experience
22 difficultiesinsecuringconsistentOOcover."
23 MsBirdiistheOOhere,isn'tshe?
24 A.Hm‐mm.
25 Q."AfocusedOOdirectorwillgreatlybenefitthis
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1 business."2 Sowhoeverhaswrittenthisseemstotaketheview3 thatMsBirdiisnotgoingtobethere,doesn'theor4 she?5 A.Theyarecertainlymakingasuggestionofthat,yes.6 Q.Anassumptionratherthanasuggestion,isn'tit?This7 isassumingthatMsBirdiisnotgoingtobethere?8 A.LikeIsay,I'vegotno‐‐Idon'tknowanythingabout9 this.It'sthefirsttimeI'veseenitandIdon'tknow
10 whowroteit.11 Q.Okay.Butitwouldhavebeensomebodyintheshared12 venturedepartmentandthatdepartmentreportstoyou?13 A.Thedepartmentreportsdirectly‐‐notdirectly,but14 indirectlythroughJillClark.15 Q.Okay.Let'sgotothetotalscorebit.+6:16 "Thesharedventureassessmentofthisopportunity17 isconservativelypositive.Theissueofopthalmic18 coverhasaffectedtheoverSVstoresintheareaand19 Iwouldexpectthatintheshorttermthiswouldapply20 toDartford,astheyhaveonerelativelyinexperienced21 employedOO.22 "IwouldrecommendthatweinitiallyattractanOO23 JVP..."24 Doyouseethat?25 A.Ido.
82
1 Q.It'sabitharshonMsBirdi,isn'tit?
2 A.Icanonlysayagain,Ihaven'tseenthisbefore.I've
3 nevermadeanydecisionsbasedonthisassessmentand
4 norwasthefactthatMsBirdididleaveeverareality.
5 So‐‐Iknowit'sthereandIknowthatyouaretaking
6 methroughit,butIhavegotnoknowledgeofthis
7 report,noranyinputintoit.
8 Q.Okay:
9 "Insummary,theDartfordstoreisagoodcomparison
10 tothepotentialturnaroundoftheWeymouthstore.
11 Previousperformancewasquestionable,andasingleOO
12 Directorona60/40splitwasintroduced."
13 Doyouseethat?
14 A.Ido.
15 Q."(Asacontingency,IknowthatboththeGravesendstore
16 PartnersandtheBexleyheathstorePartnerare
17 interestedinbuyingintothisstore,withGravesend
18 beingthepreferredoptionfromthesetwo.)"
19 Whocouldpossiblyhavehadthatknowledgeandbe
20 givingthatview?
21 A.What,theknowledgeofthisdocument?
22 Q.Yes,who‐‐
23 A.I'vegotnoideawhowrotethis‐‐
24 Q.WhoknewthattheGravesendandBexleyheathpartners
25 wereinterestedandwhowasabletosaythatthe
83
1 Gravesendpartnerswerethepreferredoptionfromthose
2 two?
3 A.Couldyourepeatthequestion,MrStuart,because‐‐
4 Q.Yes,whowithinyourvariousdepartments‐‐whowould
5 havetheknowledgethattheGravesendstorepartnersand
6 theBexleyheathstorepartnerswereinterestedinbuying
7 intothisstore,andwhowould‐‐
8 A.Idon'tknowaboutBexleyheathbutIwasawarethatthe
9 Gravesendpartners‐‐whenMrPatelhadputhisshares
10 onsalepriortousfindingoutthathehadbeen
11 fraudulent,hadmadesomecontactwithMichaelMoore.
12 That'stheonlyknowledgethatI'vegot.
13 Q.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatMrLunn,whoisin
14 chargeofthesharedventureelementhere‐‐I'mgoing
15 tosuggesttoyouthatitwashimandthathediscussed
16 thiswithyouatthetime?
17 A.I'vegotnorecollectionofthat.
18 Q.Okay.Gotopage714.{E/187/714}
19 MrLunnonthatveryday,31August‐‐
20 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Whenyousayonthatveryday,isthe
21 documentatpage711dated?
22 MRSTUART:YourLordshipisright.It'snotonitsface
23 dated.Ihavegotthatinformationfromthemetadata.
24 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Ifit'sdisputed‐‐
25 MRSTUART:Idon'tknowwhetherit'sdisputed.Ithasbeen
84
1 putintothisagreedbundleatthispoint.SoIthink
2 it'sagreedthatitisdatedsomewherebetween
3 28August,whichispage710‐5,{E/184.2/710.5}and
4 31August,whichispage712.{E/186/712}
5 MRJUSTICENUGEE:It'snotlistedintheindexwithadate.
6 Couldyouclarifywiththoseontheothersideasto
7 whetherthereisanydisputeastowhatthemetadata
8 shows?
9 MRSTUART:Yes.
10 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyou.
11 MRSTUART:So,MrDyson,justforthemomentwewill
12 presume‐‐butit'sonlyapresumption‐‐thatthisis
13 datedaroundtheendofAugust2007.AndI'msuggesting
14 toyouthatyoudiscussedDartfordwiththeshared
15 ventureman,MrLunn,atthatverytime,asevidencedon
16 page714,whereMrLunnisemailingMrMcAlindonat4.15
17 intheafternoonof31Augustandhesays:{E/187/714}
18 "Subject:Dartford.
19 "HiMel.
20 "IhavecaughtupwithDerekregardingDartford..."
21 Doyousee?
22 A.Yes.
23 Q.WehavetheintroductionofMrMcLaughlin:
24 "Asthestoreiscurrently(technically)aShared
25 Venture,andlikelytobecomeaGroupVenture..."
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1 Doyouseethat?2 A.Iseethat.3 Q."Asthestoreiscurrently(technically)aShared4 Venture,andlikelytobecomeaGroupVenture..."5 Thatcommentisentirelyconsistentwiththeshared6 ventureassessment,isn'tit?7 A.Idon'tseetheconnection,but‐‐justgiveme8 asecond.9 Q.AgroupventureisoneinwhichSpecsaversownsthe
10 Ashares,isn'tit?Ownsalltheshares?11 A.Correct.12 Q.AndthedocumentItookyoutoatpage711‐‐Itookyou13 totheentrieswhichsaid‐‐{E/185/711}14 A.Yes.15 Q."100percentofsharesshouldbeavailableoncethe16 LossPreventionsituationhasbeenconcluded.This17 shouldgiveSOSsufficientscopetoattract..."18 Etcetera,etcetera.Doyouseethat?19 A.Ido.20 Q.ItwouldappearthatMrLunn,atleast,thoughtthatas21 at31August2007,thestorewastechnicallyashared22 venturebutlikelytobecomeagroupventure.Thatis23 aventurewhereyouownalltheshares?24 A.That'swhathesaid.25 Q.Andhesaidthatafterhavingcaughtupwithyou.Do
86
1 youremembertheconversationwithMrLunn?
2 A.No,Idon't.
3 Q.Doyouhaveanynotesoftheconversation?
4 A.No.
5 Q.Anyway,hesays:{E/187/714}
6 "...untilwefindaprospectivePartnerIwould
7 liketodiscusstheLossPreventionchargesbeing
8 appliedtothestore,astheywilleffectivelybe
9 reducingSOGincomeaswearetheshareholder."
10 Doyouseethat?
11 A.Ido,yes.
12 Q.Surely,reducingMsBirdi'sincomealso,assheis
13 ashareholder?It'syourcapacityasAshareholderthat
14 heistalkingaboutthere,isn'tit,becauseas
15 Bshareholderyouarenotentitledtoanyprofits,are
16 you?
17 A.No,that'snotthewaythatthepartnershipworks.
18 Q.Yes.Soit's:
19 "...theLossPreventionchargesbeingappliedto
20 thisstore,astheywilleffectivelybereducingtheSOG
21 incomeaswearetheshareholder."
22 Thatis,"Wearethepresentsharedventure
23 Ashareholder".That'sright,isn'tit?
24 A.YoucouldtakethatinterpretationfromwhatMrLunnhas
25 written.
87
1 Q.Right.Giventhatyousaythatthe£440rateisafixed
2 rate,agreedfiveyearsearlierandappliesto
3 absolutelyeverystore,thereisnoneedtohave
4 adiscussionaboutthecharges,isthere?
5 A.Whenyousaythereisnoneedtohaveadiscussionabout
6 thecharges...?
7 Q.What'stodiscuss?
8 A.I'venoidea.Ididn'twritetheemailandI'venever
9 seenitbefore.
10 Q.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatwhat'stodiscussis
11 thelevelofchargesthataregoingtobeappliedto
12 thisstore?
13 A.Well,thelevelofchargesappliedtothestoreis£440
14 aday.I'mveryclearonthat.
15 Q.I'msuggestingtoyouthatthat'snotright.Thereis
16 nofixedbasisforthat.Thereisnoevidentialbasis
17 foritandyoucanchargewhateveryoulike?
18 A.Idon'tknowwhatyouaresaying,MrStuart.Doyou
19 wantto‐‐
20 Q.I'msayingthatyoufixedtherateat£440because
21 MrMcAlindonwantstocharge£440?
22 A.No,wesetablendedrateawaybackwiththeboard,as
23 Isaid,somewherearound2002.Thatwastheratethat
24 wesignedupto.That'stheratethathasbeenapplied
25 toeveryotherinvestigationandsupportthatwehave
88
1 doneinstores,anditwastheratethatweagreedat2 theboard.Andit'snotaquestionofjustmakingup3 numberstochargestores.4 Q.Yousee,whatMrLunnthensaysis‐‐becausethisis5 nowoneofhisstores,yousee,soheiseffectively6 havingtooverseetheprofitabilityofitfromthe7 perspectiveofasharedventureshareholding.Hesays:8 {E/187/714}9 "CanwepleaseagreethatSeanMcLaughlincharges
10 thestoredirectlyforhisdays..."11 No£440forMrMcAlindon'sdepartment;just£200for12 MrMcLaughlin.Doyousee?13 A.Yes,butthisisnotunderhiscontrolormanagement14 untilsuchtimeastheinvestigationandthe15 disciplinaryhadbeencompleted.16 Q.Right.So,what,youaresayingthatthestoreisabout17 tocomeunderMrLunn'scontrolnow?18 A.MrLunnlooksafterthosestoresinthebusinessthat19 arestrategicallysharedventure,ortheyaretemporary20 sharedventure,or,onsomeoccasions,wherestores21 becomegroupventure,alldependingonwhatactivities22 aregoingonandtheshareholdingarrangementswith23 partners.24 MrLunnhere,fromwhatIcansee‐‐and,again,I'm25 interpretingwhatI'mseeinghere‐‐attheendofthe
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1 investigationandthedisciplinary,thisstorewillthen
2 nolongerbemanagedgoingforwardonemergencycover
3 becauseanoutcomewillhavebeenagreedandhewillbe
4 theninvolvedwiththestore.That'sthewaythat
5 IsortofinterpretwhatI'mreading.
6 Q.Whatitappearstosayisthatheistryingtoagree
7 thatMrMcLaughlin'schargesaregoingtobecharged
8 directtothestore,sowithoutMrMcAlindon'smark‐up;
9 thatappearstobewhatheisseeking?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.Soastoreducethechargestothestore.Andthenhe
12 says:
13 "Ihaven'tdiscussedthetopicofchargeswith
14 DD..."
15 Thatwouldbeyou,wouldn'tit?"DD"isyou?
16 A.Yes.
17 Q."...butasDartfordiscurrentlyrunningata£16Kloss
18 fortheyear,everylittlehelps."
19 Soitdoesappearthattheamountofchargingfor
20 thesemanagerstothestoreisamatterthatcanbe
21 discussedwithyou,withMrMcAlindon,withother
22 membersoftheSpecsaversteam?
23 A.Anythingcanbediscussed.
24 Q.Whywasn'titdiscussedwithMsBirdi,theAshareholder
25 andAdirector?
90
1 A.IthinkI'vesaidit;I'llsayitagain:MsBirdiwas
2 suspended.Shewasthesubjectofaninvestigationand,
3 potentially,disciplinaryaction,andatthattimeshe
4 wassuspendedofherdutiesaswellasheremployment
5 duringthatperiod.
6 Q.Allright.IfyouputawayE3andgotoE4,page802,
7 ifyoucanpickuptheemailcorrespondence.
8 {E/191/802}MrMcAlindonnowwritestoMrLunnandto
9 you;doyouseethat?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.Thenextday,aSaturday,andsays:
12 "Derek."
13 Soheisreallyaddressingittoyoubutheis
14 showingMrLunnwhatheisdoing:
15 "IamcurrentlychargingDartfordtheequivalentof
16 £440adayformanagementfees.Asyouareaware,two
17 reasons.First,anincomestreamforthedept..."
18 That'shisdepartment,isn'tit,theLossPrevention
19 department?
20 A.Yes.
21 Q."Secondandmoreimportant,becauseoftheshare
22 value‐‐themorethestoreischarged,thelowerthe
23 value."
24 Whathedoesn'tsaythere,MrDyson,is,"I'm
25 currentlychargingDartfordtheequivalentof£440aday
91
1 formanagementfees.Asyouareaware,onereason,
2 that'sthefixedfeeforeverystore."
3 Hedoesn'tmentionthat,doeshe?
4 A.No.
5 Q.No.
6 A.Butwhywouldhe?
7 Q.Whywouldhe?Youarequiteright,whywouldhe,since
8 thatisnotthelegitimatereasonforthesecharges.
9 Thelegitimatereasonissetoutby‐‐
10 A.No,thelegitimate‐‐thelegitimatereasonforthese
11 chargesisthatthatistheratethatweagreedatthe
12 boardthatMrMcAlindonwouldcharge.Heisentitledto
13 chargeforthemandrecover‐‐andrecoverthe‐‐the
14 incomeforhisdepartment,andheismakingthepoint
15 thatifhedoesn'tchargeforthem,thepositionofthe
16 storewillnotbethecorrectpositionbecauseitwill
17 nothavebeenchargedappropriately.
18 Q.Hedoesn'tmakethatpoint.
19 A.Well,that'sthewaythatIreadit.
20 Q.Where?I'llreadoutthewordstoyou.Itsays:
21 "Secondandmoreimportant,becauseoftheshare
22 value‐themorethestoreischarged,thelowerthe
23 value.Doyouwantme‐‐"
24 A.That'sexactlywhatIhavejustsaid,MrStuart,and
25 thatis,heissaying,"IfIdon'tchargethestore,
92
1 thenthefinancialpositionofthestorewillbe
2 incorrectandthereforeanycalculationontheshare
3 valuewillbeincorrect".
4 Q.Wheredoeshesayanythingaboutincorrect?
5 A."...themorethestoreischarged,thelowerthe
6 value."
7 Q.Yes,soifwechargeit£800aday,theshareswillbe
8 worthevenless?
9 A.No,he'snotsuggestingthat.He'ssaying‐‐he's
10 suggestingcarriesonchargingat£440adaybecausehe
11 isentitledtochargethatbecausehe'sprovidingthe
12 emergencycover.
13 Q."Doyouwantmetocontinuecharginguntilacompromise
14 agreementhasbeenagreed..."
15 ThatwouldbeacompromisewithMsBirdi,alathe
16 compromiseagreementwithMrPatel;isthatright?Is
17 thathowyouunderstoodit?
18 A.Ihadn'tthoughtaboutthatuntilyou'vejustraisedit
19 now.
20 Q.Wouldyouagreewithmethatthat'showitreads:
21 "Doyouwantmetocontinueuntilacompromise
22 agreementhasbeenagreed..."
23 A.Ican'tsayyesorno.Iseethepointthatyouare
24 making.
25 Q.Okay:
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1 "...disciplinaryprocesscompleted..."
2 ThatmustbeMsBirdi.Sheistheonlyperson
3 subjecttodisciplinaryprocess,isn'tshe?
4 A.Yes.
5 Q.SothatisareferencetoMsBirdi?
6 A.Yes.
7 Q."...and/orallsharesarebought..."
8 Now,youalreadyownalltheBsharesandMrPatel's
9 Ashares,sotheonlybuyingofsharesishershares,
10 isn'tit?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Sothat'sareferencetohershares?
13 A.Itwouldseemso,yes.
14 Q."...orstopchargingtoimprovestoreperformance?"
15 SoitdoesappearthatMrMcAlindon,atleast,
16 believesthatthereisaconnectionbetweencharging
17 thesefeesandacompromiseagreementthat'sgoingtobe
18 reachedwithMsBirdi,oradisciplinaryprocessthat's
19 goingtobecompletedagainstMsBirdi,orthepurchase
20 ofMsBirdi'sshares?
21 A.No,IthinkMrMcAlindonisrespondingtothefactof
22 theemailbelowwhereNeilLunn,whoisaveryfocused
23 andstructuredindividual,whowantstohelpthestores
24 particularly,youknow,tobecomeverysuccessful,heis
25 talkingaboutthis£16,000‐‐£16,000ofloss,and
94
1 MrMcAlindonisrespondingtothatbysayingtome,
2 "Whatdoyouwantmetodo?Doyouwantmeto‐‐I'm
3 entitledtoitandIshouldbechargingit.IfIdon't
4 chargeforit,thenthestorefinancialpositionwill
5 notbecorrect,thereforethesharevaluewillbe
6 incorrect.OrdoyouwantmetorespondtoNeilanddo
7 youwantmetostartcharging‐‐stopchargingto
8 improvethestoreperformance?"
9 That'sthewaythatIinterpretedthatemail.
10 Q.Well,Isuggesttoyouthattheplanwasclearlyin
11 placebythisstagethatyou,SOG,weregoingtoacquire
12 MsBirdi'ssharesbyoneformoranother;youweregoing
13 toexitherfromthebusinessandthenyouweregoingto
14 decidewhatyouweregoingtodowiththoseshares.
15 Thatwastheplan?
16 A.No,that'snotanyplan.That'snotwhat'sgoingon.
17 Q.Theplanwasbythispointthatyou,SOG,wouldhave
18 100percentoftheshares,atsomepointinthenear
19 future?
20 A.No.Idon'tagreewiththat.
21 Q.Well,thatdoesn'tseemtobehowMrMcAlindonand
22 MrLunnunderstoodyourpositionatthetime,becauseif
23 youflickoveronepagetopage803?
24 A.803?
25 Q.803.{E/192/803}YouwillseethatMrLunnthenemails
95
1 MrMcAlindonontheTuesdayandheisfollowingthe
2 chainfromtheemailIhavejusttakenyoutoandhe
3 says:
4 "HiMel.
5 IunderstandfromDerek..."
6 Thatmustbeyou,mustn'tit?
7 A.Yes.
8 Q.Therearen'ttwoDereksinthisorganisation,arethere?
9 A.No.
10 Q.No:
11 "IunderstandfromDerekthatatthepointwhereSOG
12 own100percentofthesharesthattheLossPrevention
13 involvementwillcease..."
14 Sotheplanisforyoutoacquire100percentof
15 thesharesand:
16 "...theLossPreventioninvolvementwillceaseand
17 [MrLunn's]involvementwillcommence,thereforeleaving
18 thechargingarrangementswithme."
19 Thatwasyourplan,wasn'tit?
20 A.No.
21 Q.Itmustbe,MrDyson,giventhat.Now,perhapsyoucan
22 recall,nowthatyouseethisemail‐‐
23 A.No.Ididn'tgetemailed/copiedonthisandIdon't
24 haveanyrecollectionofanyconversationwithMrLunn.
25 Idon'tknowwhyhehaswrittenit.Therewasnoplan.
96
1 Iwaswaitingfordueprocesstobecarriedoutand2 MrRainestocompletethe‐‐theinvestigationtobe3 completedandMrRainestodecidewhattheoutcomeof4 thatinvestigationwasthroughthedisciplinaryprocess.5 Q.IsuggesttoyouthatallthedocumentsIhavejust6 takenyoutoshowyouthatMrLunnandhisdepartment7 hadbeentaskedwithassessingwhetherthisstorewould8 beagoodstoreforyoutotakein‐houseonagroup9 basisorasharedventurebasis;thatyouhadhad
10 adiscussionwithhimshortlyonorbefore31August,11 andthatMrLunniscorrectlyrecordingyour12 instructionstohim,whicharethatatthepointwhere13 SOGown100percentoftheshares,this,thatandthe14 otherisgoingtohappen,becausethatwasyourplan?15 A.Iabsolutelydonotagreewiththatpointthatyou've16 justmade.17 Q.Allright.Finally,onthissharedventurepositionat18 thisstage,canyoujustgotopage934inthisbundle?19 {E/230/934}20 A.934?Partwaythroughaletter?21 Q.Partwaythroughaletter;quiteright.Sothisis22 aletter,932,{E/230/932}fromCristinadelGraziato23 MrArtley,whoisMsBirdi'ssolicitor;okay?24 October2007.25 At934,justabovethesecondholepunch‐‐MsBirdi
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1 wastakentothisincross‐examination.Doyousee,it2 says:{E/230/934}3 "MrPatel'sdeparturefromthebusinesshasresulted4 inSOGholding50percentofthe'A'shares."5 Justabovethesecondholepunch,theparagraph6 starting:7 "MrPatel'sdeparture..."8 A.Idon'tseethat.9 Q.Secondholepunch.Justbelowthehalfwayonthepage?
10 A.Sorry,Iwasatthetopholepunch.11 Q.That'sallright.That'sfine.Doyouhaveit?12 A.I'vegotthat,yes.13 Q."MrPatel'sdeparturefromthebusinesshasresultedin14 SOGholding50percentofthe'A'shares.The15 expression'sharedventure'isusedinternallywithin16 theSpecsaversgrouptodescribeasituationsuchas17 Dartford'swhereSOGholds'A'sharesand,therefore,18 sharesintheprofitsofthebusiness..."19 Doyouseethat?20 A.Yes.21 Q.ButMrDyson,ifyouaresayingthat,"Right,wearethe22 Ashareholderandweshareintheprofitsofthe23 business";yes?24 A.Yes.25 Q.Youcan'talsochargethebusiness£120,000‐‐
98
1 A.Butwehaven'ttakenanyprofits,becausethereareno
2 profits.
3 Q.Well,alloftheprofitsofthebusinesshavegoneout
4 inpaymentstoyourLossPreventiondepartment.Wehave
5 seenthatfromMrLunn.
6 A.Ifwehadn'thaveprovidedthecover,thentherewould
7 havebeenalotmoreproblemswiththestore.
8 Q.Ifyouwanttoprovidethecover,that'samatterfor
9 you.AsAshareholder,youdowhatyouwanttodoto
10 protectyourshareintheprofits.That'swhat'sbeing
11 saidhere.Butwhatgivesyoutherighttochargefor
12 that?
13 A.IthinkIhavealreadyansweredthatearlierandthatis
14 thatalltheday‐to‐daycostsofrunningthestoreare
15 tobebornebythestore.Ismyunderstanding.
16 Q.Okay.Doyousee,itgoeson:
17 "GivenMsBirdi'srecentconductandtheoutcomeof
18 thedisciplinaryhearingheldon20September..."
19 Doyouseethat?
20 A.Yes.
21 Q."...SOGdoesnotdeemitappropriateatthistimeto
22 makeanyfirmplansregardingthefuturestructureof
23 theDartfordbusiness."
24 Doyouseethat?
25 A.Ido.
99
1 Q.Whatdoesthatmean?YoupersonallywereSOGforthese
2 purposes,weren'tyou?Youwerethemanmakingthese
3 decisions?
4 A.Letmereadthecontext,inwherethishascomefrom.
5 (Pause)
6 Okay.
7 Q.So,itisyou,isn'tit,whoismakingthesedecisions?
8 A.Yes.
9 Q.It'snotDameMaryPerkins,or‐‐
10 A.No,no.
11 Q.It'sjustyou.Sowhatdoyoumeanbythat?
12 A.Ithinkwhatitsaysinthere.Youknow,wehavejust
13 gonethroughaverylong,protractedinvestigationand
14 disciplinary,andwe‐‐beforewegomakinganyplans
15 aboutthatfuturestructure,it'stimetoreflecton
16 whatthebestnextstepsare.
17 Q.Sowhatpossiblestructureswerethere?
18 A.Ithinkwearejustmakingastatementthatwearenot
19 goingtoberushedintomakingdecisionsbasedon‐‐
20 Idon'tknowifthere'saquestionaskedandthisiswhy
21 ithasbeenrespondedto,butMsdelGraziaisjust
22 saying,"Wehaven'tmadeadecision".
23 Wehaven'tmadeadecision.
24 Q.Okay.Ataroundthistime,thedisciplinarydecision
25 wasbeingmade,asyouknow,asrecordedthere.Canyou
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1 justgobacktoalittlerunofemailsinvolvingyou;it2 startsatpage870.{E/211/870}3 A.Yes.4 Q.MrMcAlindonisemailingyou:5 "Derek.6 "Ihaveacoupleofoutstandinginvoices:7 "Dartford‐£14,781.25.8 "Thisexcludesthe£8,800managementcoststhatare9 beingchargedmonthlyandispurelytheinvestigation
10 costs...Doyouwantthisinvoicingbeforeany11 discussionstakeplaceresharevaluations?"12 Doyouseethat?870;doyouseeit?13 A.Yes.14 Q.Sohowdoesthatwork,MrDyson?Whatarethe15 discussionsresharevaluations?16 A.Ihavegotnoidea.17 Q.Allright.Soyoudon'tthinkthatMrMcAlindonandyou18 werediscussingthismatter,Dartfordandwhat‐‐19 A.You'vetakenmetoit,you'veaskedmewhatisthat20 about.Ihavegotnoideawhatthatisabout.21 Q.Wouldyouagreewithmethatitappears,onthefaceof22 it,tobelinkingthequestionofputtingcharges23 againsttheDartfordstore‐‐linkingthattothe24 discussionsthatmighttakeplaceresharevaluations?25 A.Whatitsaysisthathehasgotacoupleofoutstanding
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1 invoicesforDartfordtotalling£14,700.2 Q.Yes?3 A.Andthatdoesn'tinclude£8,800managementcoststhat4 werecharged.That'swhatitsays.5 Q.Whathasthatgottodowithsharevaluation?6 A.I'vegotnoidea.7 Q.Anyway,youdidn'trespond,saying,"Ihavegotnoidea8 whatyouaretalkingabout,Mel".Yourespondedat9 page872toMelfromyourPA'semailaddress,butyou
10 signoff,"Regards,Derek":{E/213/872}11 "Mel.12 "Dartford‐putthroughthefirstchargenow13 (Nimesh)."14 Doyouseethat?15 A.Yes.16 Q."Waitforoutcomeofdisciplinarybeforeissuing2nd17 phase."18 What'sthatallabout?19 A.Well,hehasaskedabouttwo‐‐twolotsofmoney.One20 isaboutthemanagementcosts.21 Q.Hm‐mm?22 A.Andtheotheroneisaboutcoststhatappeartobe‐‐to23 dowithNimesh.24 Q.Hm‐mm.Yes,butwhathehasaskedforis:25 "Doyouwanttheinvoicingbeforeanydiscussions
102
1 takeplaceresharevaluations?"{E/211/870}
2 Andyouranswerisnot,"Idon'tknowwhatshare
3 valuationsyouaretalkingabout,Mel";youransweris:
4 "...putthroughthefirstchargenow...waitfor
5 theoutcomeofthedisciplinarybeforeissuing2nd
6 phase."
7 A.Ican't‐‐Ican'trecollectexactlywhatwasthe
8 thoughtsinmymind.Butwhatmyinterpretationis,is
9 he'sowedmoneywithregardstoDartford.Oneistodo
10 withNimeshandoneistodowithmanagementcoststhat
11 arebeingchargedmonthly.
12 Q.WereyouincontactwithMrRainesabouthis
13 investigation?
14 A.No.
15 Q.Notatall?Weren'tyouinterestedtoknowwhathis
16 findingsweregoingtobe?
17 A.No,notuntiltheinvestigationandthedisciplinaryhad
18 completed.
19 Q.Okay.
20 MyLord,Icanseeit's1o'clock?
21 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.2o'clock.I'llremindyounotto
22 speaktoanyone.
23 (1.02pm)
24 (Theshortadjournment)
25 (2.00pm)
103
1 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes,MrStuart.2 MRSTUART:MrDyson,whichbundleshaveyougot‐‐3 A.E4andB1.4 Q.YoucanputawayE4;I'vefinishedwiththat.D1you5 canputawaybecauseIhavefinishedwiththat.6 CouldyoubepassedE5.DoyouhaveE5?7 A.Notyet.8 Q.E5,please.Allright.9 E5startsinNovember2007‐‐doyousee,
10 page1073‐‐withMrPerkins'investigationintothe‐‐11 doyouseethatletter?{E/264/1073}12 A.Yes.13 Q.SoMsBirdihadbeengivensomedisciplinarysanctions14 inOctober2007‐‐doyouremember‐‐byMrRaines's15 decision.Andshewasappealingthat,wasn'tshe?16 A.Iunderstandso,yes.17 Q.You,presumably,werenotinvolvedatallinanyof18 that?19 A.No.20 Q.Andthat'swhyyoudon'tmentionanyofitinyour21 statement?22 A.That'scorrect.23 Q.That'sfine.24 Inparagraph66ofyourstatement,{C/9/103}yousay25 shegotafinalwrittenwarning;yes?
104
1 A.Yes.
2 Q.Andshehadgotafinalwrittenwarningforhaving
3 incompleteormissingdocuments.Doyouremember;that
4 relatedtothedocumentsrelatingtoherfather,her
5 father'semployment,andherhusband'semployment.
6 Forbreachesofemploymentregulations;again,no
7 contractofemployment,etcetera.
8 Fortreatingherfamilymembersdifferentlytoother
9 membersofstaff.
10 Fornotfollowingthecorrectproceduresinrelation
11 tothePolishworkers'workonthe‐‐
12 A.Correct.
13 Q.Andinsummary,fornotbeingtransparentinthe
14 treatmentofstaff.
15 That,insummary,iswhatshewasdisciplinedfor;
16 youwouldagreewiththat?
17 A.Iwouldagreewiththat.
18 Q.ShewasnotdisciplinedfortheallegationthatMrPatel
19 hadmade‐‐theoriginalPatelallegation‐‐ofpaying
20 MrRehmanlargesumsofmoneyfordoingnowork
21 whatsoever.Shewasnotdisciplinedforthat,wasshe?
22 A.No,itwasn'tproven.
23 Q.That'sright.Inyourparagraph66‐‐andattheendof
24 yourstatement,indeed‐‐{C/9/103}youmakethepoint
25 thatshecouldhavebeendismissedin2007.Thisis
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1 whenyougettotheendofitallandyouaresuggesting2 thatit'snotcorrecttosaythatyouhadalong‐term3 plantogetridofher,andoneoftheexamplesyougive4 isthatyousayMrRainescouldhavedismissedherin5 2007?6 A.Yes.7 Q.Butisthatright?Forthosesortsoflevelsof8 misconduct,ienothavingtherightpaperworkinplace9 andusingasupplier,onesupplier,whoisnotonthe
10 listofapprovedSpecsaverssuppliers,onone‐‐11 A.UsingPolishbuilderswhoarenot‐‐notjustnot12 suppliers;theyhavenotgotanycredentialswhatsoever,13 sofarasIcouldsee.Sotheissuesofhealthand14 safety,theissuesofinsurance,theissuesofpeople15 gettinginjured,perhaps.Sothat'squiteserious.16 Q.Butitwasahistoricissue,wasn'tit?Ithad17 happened?18 A.Yes.19 Q.Ithadhappened.Nohealthandsafetyissuehadarisen?20 A.No.21 Q.Nobodyhadfallendownthe...etcetera.22 AreyouseriouslysuggestingthatanyJVPwhose23 paperworkwasn'tquiteinorderinrelationtosomeof24 theirstaffandwhohadononeoccasionused25 anon‐approvedsupplier‐‐areyouseriouslysayingthat
106
1 thatwouldresult‐‐
2 A.Itwasn'tthosetwothings,therewasfourthingsthat
3 yousaidandIthink,collectively,thosethingswould
4 andcouldamounttogrossmisconduct,andMrRaines
5 couldhaveformedtheopinionitwasgrossmisconduct
6 andhecouldhavedismissedher.
7 Q.IgaveyoufivethingsasperMrRaines'saccount,but
8 fourofthosefivethingsrelatedtothesamething,
9 namelythelackofpaperwork,lackofcontractof
10 employment,lackoftransparency,asitwasput,lackof
11 employmentregulationsdocuments‐‐theyallrelatedto
12 thesamething,namelytheemploymentofherfatherand
13 herhusband?
14 A.AndMrsPatel,Ithink,aswell.
15 Q.AndofcourseMrsPatel,youarequiteright;yes.
16 AreyousayingthataJVPwhodoesn'tgettheir
17 paperworkinorderinrelationtotheemploymentof
18 afamilymember,forexample,andwhousesnon‐approved
19 suppliersononeoccasion‐‐areyouseriouslysaying
20 thatforafirstoffence,that'sdismissal?
21 A.Itcouldhaveaccountedforgrossmisconduct,yes.
22 Q.Allright.Canweflickoninyourstatementto
23 paragraph73.{C/9/105}Thisisjustfinalisingwhat
24 Iwasdealingwithjustbeforelunch.Yousetoutthese
25 coststhatyouhaveapplied?
107
1 A.Yes.
2 Q.SoyouhavegottheLossPreventionemergencymanagement
3 costsandthenyouhavegottheotherLossPrevention
4 investigationcosts.And(e)thedisciplinarycostsas
5 well.Allofthosethings?
6 A.Yes.
7 Q.Andthewayyouputitthere,yousay,73:
8 "...thefollowingcostswereincurredbySOS..."
9 "Incurred".Soyouseemto,there,betryingto
10 assertthatSOSincurredacost,iegotchargedby
11 somebodyforacost,andthenpassedthatontothe
12 storecompany.Isthatright?Thatiswhatyouare
13 tryingtosaybytheuseoftheword"incurred"?
14 A.Yes.
15 Q.Right.Sotheseemergencymanagementcovers,theactual
16 costincurredbySOSwassurelyonlythe£400plus
17 expensesthatMsSlarkwaschargingandthenthemuch
18 lower£200thatMrMcLaughlinlaterwascharging,andno
19 chargeincurredbySOSforitsowninternalpeople?SOS
20 didn'tincuranysuchcosts,didit?
21 A.Ithinkthatwedidincurcostsbecausewehadtocover
22 theemergencymanagementcover.Wehadtopayforthose
23 peoplethatwereprovidingtheleadershipinthestore.
24 Q.I'magreeingwithyouthattotheextentthatSOS
25 incurredthecostof,forexample,MrMcLaughlin,he
108
1 chargedyou£200aday,allright?That'sacost
2 incurred.MrMcLaughlinischarging£200anhour.
3 That'sacostofMrMcLaughlinincurred.
4 MrMcLaughlincharges£200anhour[sic],butyou,
5 SOS,chargethestore£400anhour[sic],forexample,
6 or£440,foraperiodoftimewhenallthat
7 MrMcAlindon'sdepartmentisdoing‐‐I'mtalkingabout
8 theMcLaughlinperiod‐‐allthatSOSaredoingatthat
9 timeishavingthemaninthestore?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.Thereisnomoreinvestigationgoingon,isthere?
12 A.No,becauseit'semergencymanagementcoverandcharged
13 at£440,whichistheratewhichMrMcAlindoncharges
14 forhisservices.
15 Q.Doyouunderstandthedifferencebetweencharging
16 somethingandincurringit?
17 A.Iunderstandthedifference,yes.
18 Q.Sowouldyouagreewithmethat£65,120wasn'tincurred;
19 it'swhatwascharged?
20 A.Correct.
21 Q.Okay.Similarly,theinvestigationintoMsBirdi,
22 £6,943.75;yes?
23 A.Correct.
24 Q.Apartfromanycamerawork‐‐andI'mnotsureyouwould
25 have‐‐yousurelywouldn'tbeputtingcamerasin,in
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1 relationtoMsBirdi?
2 A.No.
3 Q.Sothe£6,943incurredbytheLossPrevention
4 department,that'sactuallychargesoftheLoss
5 Preventiondepartment,which‐‐
6 A.Chargingfortheservicesattherate;correct.
7 Q.Whichyouarechargingtothestore,notsomethingthat
8 youareincurringasachargeyourself,SOS?
9 A.Igetthepointthatyouaremaking.
10 Q.Youwouldagreewithme?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Good.AndIsuppose(e),youwouldsaythatsomeofthe
13 accommodationandtravelexpenseswereincurred‐‐
14 becauseiftherewasatrainticketandyouhavepaid
15 forit,thenyouhaveincurredthatcost;isthatright?
16 A.Yes.
17 Q.That'swhatyouhaveincurred.Butfeesfor
18 MrHamilton,theretaildevelopmentconsultant,
19 MrRaines,MrRowe,DominicSavill‐‐
20 A.Wehaveincurredcoststherebecausewehavetopay
21 theirsalaries.
22 Q.Isthatwhatyouaresaying:salariesofMrHamilton‐‐
23 A.No,I'mjustsaying‐‐I'mjustsayingtherewillbe‐‐
24 insideofthatcharge,therewillbecostsforusto
25 provideallofthosethingsthataresaidthere,sothey
110
1 wouldbeincurredtous.
2 Q.Andyouthinkyouareentitledtopassonyourstaff
3 salariestothestorecompany?
4 A.Ithinkweare‐‐weareentitledtochargeforour
5 support,investigation,etcetera,yes.
6 Q.Okay.Fromparagraph74onwards,thereissetoutthere
7 variousmattersrelatingtoMrClark'sletterandthe
8 explanationsforit,etcetera.Wereyoupersonally
9 involvedinanyofthat?
10 A.CanIjust‐‐
11 Q.Yes,do.Soparagraph74.{C/9/105}MsBirdirequested
12 adetailedbreakdownandMrClarkprovidedonetoher;
13 doyouremember?
14 A.Yes,intermsofMrClarkconductinghisreviewor
15 investigation,whateveryouwanttocallit,then
16 clearlythatwasdowntoMrClark.
17 Q.SoIshouldaskhim.Heiscomingalongtogive
18 evidence.SoIcanaskhimaboutit?
19 A.Yes.
20 Q.Youweren'tpersonallyinvolved?
21 A.No.
22 Q.That'sfine.Soskiptoparagraph82then,whichis
23 amattermoreofprinciple.Doyouseeparagraph82?
24 {C/9/107}
25 A.Yes.
111
1 Q.Lastfourlines:
2 "Accordingly,thecostofanyadditionalservice,
3 whetherthatservicebeaninvestigationattherequest
4 ofSOG,asaBshareholder/directorofthatStore
5 Company,oremergencymanagementcoverrequiredtokeep
6 astoretradingintheabsenceoftheAdirectors,will
7 bechargedtotheStore..."
8 Doyouseethat?
9 A.Ican,yes.
10 Q.SoI'minterestedinthewayyouputthatinrelationto
11 theinvestigationcosts?
12 A.CanIreadtheparagraphs,soIhavegotthefull
13 context?
14 Q.Yes,do.(Pause)
15 A.Yes,Ihavereadit,MrStuart.
16 Q.Sotheinvestigationelementofthecosts‐‐notthe
17 managementcover,whichissomethingseparate‐‐
18 A.Yes.
19 Q.‐‐buttheinvestigationelement,yousaythatarises
20 fromyouasBshareholderrequestinganinvestigation?
21 A.Correct.
22 Q.Andyousaythatinthosecircumstances,absentany
23 resolutionbytheboardofDartfordSpecsaversLimited
24 oritssubsidiary,DartfordVisionplusLimited,yousay,
25 merelyasaresultofyoubeingallowedtorequestas
112
1 Bshareholderofthestorecompanythattherebean2 investigationofyourfellowAshareholder,MsBirdi?3 A.Yes.4 Q.Thatyouhavetherighttochargethestoreforthat?5 A.Correct.6 Q.Andonwhatbasisdoyouassertthat?7 A.Onthebasisthatweare‐‐SOGisaBshareholder.8 Q.Yes.9 A.Thatwehavegotaninvestigationtocarryout.The
10 investigationistodowiththebusinessofDartford.11 Thepeopleinvolvedinthatinvestigationworkfor12 Dartford.Therefore,as3.1.1,thenallthecoststhat13 areassociatedwiththestore,weareentitledtocharge14 thestoreforthosecosts.15 Q.3.1.1isday‐to‐daymanagement,MrDyson.Youarenot16 suggestingthatthisisday‐to‐daymanagement?17 A.I'msuggestingthatanycoststhatareincurred‐‐back18 tothatword‐‐withregardtodoingtheinvestigation,19 weareentitledtochargeDartfordforthosecosts.20 Q.Okay.CouldyoujustgotobundleE6,page1482.21 {E/389/1482}Doyouseethat?That'sanemail,22 7July2008:23 "Subject:Dartfordcosts."24 ThisistoDavidClark,whoisthemanwhohad25 writtentheletter;doyouremember?
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1 A.Yes.2 Q.ItisfromsomeonecalledCatherineLillington.Canyou3 justtellhisLordshipwhoCatherineLillingtonis?4 A.Idon'tknow.5 Q."HiDavid.6 "Followingmyearlieremail,Derekhasaskedmeto7 sendyouhishandwrittenamendments."8 Doyouseethat?9 A.Yes.
10 Q.Thatwouldbeyou,Derek,wouldn'tit?11 A.Itwouldbe,yes.12 Q.Andthenweseepage1483:{E/389.1/1483}13 "Derek.14 "PleasefindattachedmyresponsetoSBirdirefher15 emailqueryingchargesmadetotheDartfordstore...16 Legalhavecheckedthewording."17 Doyouseethat?18 A.Yes.19 Q.Andthenyouhaveannotatedit:20 "AmendandcopyDCCDGforfinalreview.21 "Derek."22 Doyouseethat?23 A.Yes.24 Q.Sotheseareyouramendments,aren'tthey?25 A.Theyare.
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1 Q.Onpage1484to1485?{E/389.1/1484}
2 A.Correct.
3 Q.Whywereyougettinginvolvedinthedetailof
4 MrClark'sexplanationhere?
5 A.Becausehehadsentittome.
6 Q.Yes.
7 A.AndIrevieweditandIthoughtthattherewouldbemore
8 clarity.IcorrectedthingsthatIthoughtweren't
9 rightandIaddedaline,particularlyaroundthedaily
10 charge,totryandexplain,sothatwhenMsBirdigot
11 thisletter,itwasclearerthanperhapsitwasbefore,
12 whenDavidhadjustsentmethecopyasitwas.
13 Sotheseare‐‐notchanging,butgivingmore
14 claritytotheindividualcommentsthatareenclosedin
15 theletter.
16 Q.Okay.Andsoundertheheading,"Dailymanagementof
17 store",itsays:{E/389.1/1484}
18 "SOGdonotrequirestoredirectorsoractingstore
19 directorsto‐‐"
20 A.Sorry,canyoutakemewhere...?
21 Q.Halfwaydownthereisaheading,"Dailymanagementof
22 store"?
23 A.Yes.
24 Q.Page1484.Doyouseethat?
25 A.Yes.
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1 Q."SOGdonotrequirestoredirectorsoractingstore
2 directorstocompletealogsheetofhours..."
3 Doyouseethat?
4 A.Yes.
5 Q."...inattendancethereforethisinformationisnot
6 available."
7 Youhaveadded:
8 "Thestoreischargedadailyratewhichcoversall
9 theircosts."
10 A.Correct.
11 Q."Withregardtodaysofattendance,Ihaveinvestigated
12 asampleoffourmonthofcostsrelatingtothe'dayto
13 dayrunning'ofthebusiness.Alloftheinvoices
14 submittedwerefoundtobecorrectandrelateexactlyto
15 thedayswherebyanActingstoredirectorwasin
16 attendance..."
17 Youhaveadded:
18 "...attheDartfordstore."
19 Yes?
20 A.CanIjustreadthat,sorry.
21 Q.Youaredealingwiththeminutiaeoftheletterhere.
22 Youhavechanged‐‐
23 A.Erm‐‐
24 Q.‐‐"Dartford"to"theDartfordstore"?
25 A.Well,whenyouareinvitedtoreadsomethingandcomment
116
1 onitandyouseesomething,thenyouannotate.
2 Q.Okay.Allright.Soit'sthenextparagraph:
3 "ThedailychargeforanSOGemployeeActingstore
4 director..."
5 Whoisactingasstoredirector,accordingtoyou?
6 A.Notaccordingtome.Davidwrotethatbit.Ijustput
7 "employee"inthere.
8 Q.Yes,youchangedthemeaningfrom"SOGActingstore
9 director"to"SOGemployeeActingstoredirector".So
10 whichSOGemployeedoyoumean?
11 A.That'sclearlywrong.
12 Q.Okay.Andthenatthebottomyouhaveaddedthenote:
13 "Theis..."
14 Ithinkyoumean:
15 "Thisistheequivalenttoanaveragedailycharge
16 of£440,whichcoversallcostsincludingtravel,meals,
17 accommodationandstaffsalaries."
18 Doyouseethat?
19 A.Ido.
20 Q.Ifitcoversallstaffsalaries,howcanyouchargefor
21 thepersonconcerned,themanager,the£440,and,ontop
22 ofthat,thefurtherstaffelementinrelationtothe
23 feesyousayyouchargeforotherthings?
24 A.Canyourepeatthequestion?
25 Q.Yes.Youhavetoldus,whenItookyoutothebitwhere
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1 youwerechargingforMrRaines,MrRoweandother2 people'sinvolvement‐‐3 A.Yes.4 Q.‐‐notjusttheirexpenses,yousaid,"Ah,wellwehave5 gottheirsalariesaswell.Weareprovidingthem."6 A.Correct.7 Q.But,surely,accordingtoyou,thestaffsalariesare8 includedwithinthe£440?9 A.Yes,asacombinedchargeof£440,butthepeoplewho
10 wereactuallyproviding,ontwooftheoccasionsover11 thiscover,arepeoplewhoarenotemployees,ie12 CarolSlarkandSeanMcLaughlin.13 Q.Allright.Justexplaintomeagainwhyyouare14 personallygettingsoinvolvedinthis?15 A.BecauseDavidsentthistome.16 Q.Yes.17 A.Ireadit,IthoughtIwasaddingclaritytomakeit18 easierforwhenitwasreceivedtoanswersomeofthe19 questionsthatwerebeingasked.20 Q.Okay.Allright.Ithinkwehavedealtwith21 paragraphs83to85earlierthismorning,soI'mnot22 goingtotakeyoutothat.23 Canyougotoparagraph89ofyourwitness24 statement.{C/9/108}MrLunn.25 A.Yes.
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1 Q.WhichisthepointIwasaskingyouaboutearlier.Do2 yourememberIshowedyoutheMrLunnemail?3 A.Yes.4 Q.It'shalfwaydown89.Doyouseethereisasentence5 inthemiddle.Itsays:6 "IfDartfordwasanindependentbusiness..."7 A.Yes.8 Q."IfDartfordwasanindependentbusinessandithadno9 directorstorunitthenitwouldhavetoincurthe
10 costsofatemporarystoredirector.Inthiscase,the11 storehadthesupportofoneofitsmain12 shareholder/directors(SOG),butthisdidnotmeanthat13 legitimatebusinessexpensesshouldhavebeenwaived."14 Doyouseethat?15 A.Yes.16 Q.It'syouruseoftheterm"waived".Whatlegitimate17 businessexpensesareyoutalkingabouttherethatmay18 ormaynotbewaived?19 A.CanIjusthaveaminutetoreadthecontext?(Pause)20 Right.It'sinthecontextthatIbelievethatthe21 chargingthatwewere‐‐chargesthatweremadeto22 Dartfordforthecoverarelegitimate.Theyshouldbe23 there,andtheyshouldn'tbestopped.24 Q.Okay.Paragraph90isreallyfundamentaltowhatyour25 explanationisandIneedyourexplanationforwhatyou
119
1 sayhere.Paragraph90,doyouseeit?Yousayinthe
2 firstsentencethat:{C/9/108}
3 "Whereafull‐scaleinvestigationinvolving
4 emergencymanagementcoverisrequired,thisisusually
5 becauseoneormoreoftheJVPs...aresuspectedof
6 fraudulentordishonestconduct."
7 Fraudordishonesty.Yes?
8 A.Yes.
9 Q.IcanquiteseethatpayingMrRehmanlargesumsof
10 moneyfordoingnoworkispotentiallyfraudor
11 dishonesty.Thatisanallegationof,effectively,
12 afraudordishonesty.Butnothavingemployment
13 contractsorthepaperworkinplace,thatwouldn'tbe
14 anallegationoffraudordishonesty,wouldit?
15 A.No.
16 Q.Andusinganon‐approvedsupplier,whilstwrong,whilst
17 entirelywrong‐‐
18 A.Ido‐‐Idothinkthatisfraudulentanddishonest.
19 Q.Isit?Fraudulent?
20 A.Yes,becausetherewasnopermissiontodoit.There
21 wasnoinvoices.Wehaven'tseenhowthecompanypaid
22 forthatworkstobedone.So,yes.
23 Q.What'sthefraud?Fraudonwhom?
24 A.Well,there'sclearlytaximplicationsforthepeople
25 thataredoingthework,becausetherearenoinvoices
120
1 forthiswork.
2 Q.Yes.Soit'safraudontheRevenue;isthatwhatyou
3 aresuggesting?Orpossibly?
4 A.I'mjustsayingit'sfraudulentanddishonestconduct.
5 Q.It'seasytosay,isn'tit?Buthowisitfraudulent;
6 howisitfraudulenttoemploysomebodytodoputup
7 a‐‐fixawindowthat'sbroken?Theyarenotonyour
8 approvedlist;theyarePolish.Howisthatfraudulent?
9 A.Theactivitythattheyaredoing,iftheyarenot
10 providinginvoicesandnotprovidingguaranteesand
11 otherthings,couldleadyoutobelievethere'ssome
12 fraudulentactivitygoingon.
13 Q.Couldleadtoyoubelievethat,butit'snotactuallyan
14 allegationoffraudulentconduct,isit?Toemploy
15 somebodywhoisnotontheapprovedlistandtodoso
16 withouttheproperpaperworkisnotitselffraudulent,
17 isit?It'sadifferentsortofwrongdoingtofraudand
18 dishonesty?
19 A.Ithinkthattheiractivitieswereclearlynotabove
20 board.Maybethatisn'tfraudulent,butthere'sclearly
21 somethingnotrightaboutthefactthatpeopledowork
22 anddon'tprovideuswithinvoicesanddon't‐‐
23 Q.Imean‐‐
24 A.‐‐andpotentiallydon'tpaytheirtaxesorpayNHIor
25 whateverelsetheyaresupposedtodowhilstaboutdoing
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1 legitimatebusiness.
2 Q.Thelackofpaperwork,whilstitmaywellbeevidence
3 thatsomethingdishonestisgoingon‐‐becausewho
4 doesn'tdocumentwhattheyaredoing‐‐thelackof
5 paperworkisn'tnecessarilyfraudulent,isit?
6 A.No.
7 Q.Imean,youyourself‐‐wehavegotherefiveyears'
8 worthofyourinvolvementinthismatterandnotone
9 singledocumentevidencingthemeetingsanddiscussions
10 whichyousayyouhadwiththesepeople.Butyou
11 weren'tactingfraudulentlywhenyoudidn'tputanything
12 onpaper,wereyou?
13 A.No.Ididn'tactuallysayIdidn'tputitonpaper.
14 IsaidifIdidmakenotes,theyare‐‐theydon't‐‐
15 theynolongerexistbecauseIprobablyshreddedwith
16 themasIdealtwiththingsonmydailytasks.
17 Q.Again,theshreddingofdocumentsmightbefraudulent,
18 mightn'tit?Butitmightnotbe?
19 A.Butit'snotadocument,it'sanote.
20 Q.Allright.Soattheendofthisparagraph90,yousay
21 that:{C/9/109}
22 "...theinvestigationwasnecessitatedbyserious
23 allegationsregardingfinancialmattersoftheDartford
24 businessagainstherwhichtranspiredtobetrue."
25 That'snotfair‐‐
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1 A.WhereamI?
2 Q.Theendofthisparagraph90.Theallegations,the
3 seriousallegations‐‐
4 A.Sorry,Ican'tseewhereyouare.
5 Q.Attheendofparagraph90?
6 A.Yes.
7 Q.Thelastsentenceisfourlines.Itsays:
8 "Itistruethatthecostsofemergencymanagement
9 covercanbesubstantial,butIhavelittlesympathyfor
10 MsBirdiwhenshecomplainsofthisgiventhat..."
11 Thenyouusethewords:
12 "...theinvestigationwasnecessitatedbyserious
13 allegationsregardingfinancialmattersoftheDartford
14 businessagainstherwhichtranspiredtobetrue."
15 A.Okay,it'soverthepage;sorry,yes.
16 Q.Youhavealreadytoldusthattheinvestigationwas
17 necessitatedbyMrPatel'sallegations;nooneelse's.
18 That'sright,isn'tit?
19 A.Forthetheftofthemoneyandtheactivitythrough
20 refunding,that'sMrPatel.
21 Q.No.TheinvestigationintoMsBirdiwasnecessitatedby
22 seriousallegationsmadeagainstherbyMrPatel?
23 A.Correct.
24 Q.Andthoseallegationswerethatshepaidorcausedthe
25 companytopaylargesumsofmoneytoherhusbandwhen
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1 herhusbanddidnoworkforthebusiness?2 A.Yes.3 Q.Doyouremember?4 A.Ido.5 Q.Which,asyouhavesaid,wouldbefraudordishonesty.6 Thatallegationdidnottranspiretobetrue,did7 it?Ittranspiredtobefalse?8 A.Ittranspirednottobeproven.9 Q.No,no,no:ittranspiredtobefalse,thatallegation.
10 MrRehmandidsomeworkforthebusiness,didn'the?11 A.Hedid.12 Q.SOGandMsMancinididaninvestigationandshe13 summarisedalltheworkthathedid.Sothatallegation14 ofpayingsomebodyfornoworkwasafalseallegation?15 A.Correct.16 Q.It'snotyourfaultthatMrPatelmadeafalse17 allegation‐‐aslongasMrMcAlindondidn'tcausehim18 tomakethatallegation‐‐butitwasafalse19 allegation,notonethattranspiredtobetrue?20 A.Correct.21 Q.Okay.IthinkIhavedealtthismorningwiththesalary22 increases,sowecanskippastthat.Wearealmostat23 theendofyourfirststatementnow.Let'smoveonto24 97,undertheheading,"PaymentstoMrSingh".Doyou25 seethat?{C/9/110}
124
1 A.Ihavegotit,yes.
2 Q.Let'sdealwithafewpointsfirst.Youseektorely
3 uponclause15oftheshareholders'agreement;
4 paragraph98.WouldyoubeshownD1.Doyouseeit?
5 Page186.{D/15/186}Soyouprayinaidclause15and
6 youusethewords:
7 "Pursuanttoclause15oftheShareholders'
8 Agreement,thedecisionofwhowouldreplaceMrPatelas
9 aJVPinDartfordwassubjecttoSOG'sapproval..."
10 A.Correct.
11 Q.Doyouseethat?Soifwelookatclause15‐‐doyou
12 haveit?Page186?Clause15says:
13 "AnAdirector..."
14 ThatwouldbeMrPatel:
15 "...shallnottransferordisposeofalloranyof
16 hisAsharesoranyinterestinanyofthemtoanyother
17 personexceptinaccordancewithclause16..."
18 Wewillcomebacktothatinamoment.Sohecando
19 itunderclause16butotherwisehecan'tdoit:
20 "...unlesssuchpersonhasfirstbeenapprovedby
21 Specsaversasbeinganacceptabletransferee."
22 A.Correct.
23 Q.Soyou,Specsavers,effectivelyhavearightofapproval
24 overanyonetowhomheisgoingtotransfer,notby
25 clause16?
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1 A.Correct.
2 Q."Suchapprovalwillnotbeunreasonablywithheld..."
3 Soyourrighttoapproveisitselfsubjectto
4 obligationsonyou,isn'tit?
5 A.Itis.
6 Q.It'snotanunfetteredrightforyousimplytosay,"We
7 don'tlikeMsKaur",forexample,yourexample."We
8 don'tthinksheisappropriate,youcan'ttransfer";
9 yourapprovalwillnotbeunreasonablywithheld:
10 "Ifsuchpersonisanindividualwhoisregistered
11 withthe[GOC]oranybodyreplacingitasanopthalmic
12 optician..."
13 SoanOO.
14 A.Hm‐mm.
15 Q."...oriftheAdirectorinquestionisadispenseras
16 adispensingopticianoriftheAdirectorinquestion
17 isdescribedinthisAgreementasaretailer..."
18 Thatdoesn'tapplyhere,doesit,inthisagreement?
19 Doyouremember,itwasdispenser,andatpage177,
20 {D/15/177}thestructurewasSpecsavers;theoptician,
21 whichisSwarandeepBirdi,andthedispenser,whichis
22 NimeshPatel.Thiswasn'taretailer‐typeexample.
23 A.Hewouldhavebeenresponsible‐‐Nimeshwouldhavebeen
24 responsibleforthedispensingandtheretailing.
25 Q.That'snotthepointofthisclause,isit?Thepoint
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1 ofthisclauseisthatifsomebodyisdescribedinthis2 agreementas"theretailer"‐‐becauseinsomeofyour3 stores,youhaveOO,DOandretailer,oryouhaveOOand4 retailer.Youdon'talways‐‐5 A.Correct.6 Q.‐‐usethedispenser‐‐7 A.Iacceptthat.8 Q.Butifyoulookbackatpage177,justtohelpyou.9 Page177,theparties.Doyouseeit?Itsays:
10 "2.Parties."11 YouhavegotSpecsavers;thenyouhavegotthe12 optician,SwarandeepBirdi,andthedispenser,13 NimeshPatel?14 A.Correct.15 Q.So,inthiscaseitwasthedispenser,MrPatel.16 A.Yes.17 Q.Hewasthedispenser?18 A.Yes.19 Q.Soifyougobackto15.1.1,{D/15/186}youarenot20 unreasonablytowithholdyourapprovaliftheperson‐‐21 thatisthepersonwhoispurchasing;doyousee?22 A.Yes.23 Q.‐‐isadispenser:24 "...iftheAdirectorinquestionisthedispenser25 asadispensingoptician,or..."
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1 Soit'sthatthatapplieshere,and(ii):
2 "SuchpersoncovenantswithSpecsaversinadeedto
3 performandobservealltheobligations..."
4 Sotheyhavetocomplywithalltheobligations.
5 Soyoudonothaveanunfetteredrighttoapproveor
6 notapprovepeople,doyou?
7 A.Ithinkwehavearighttoapproveandnotapprove
8 peoplebasedonwhethertheyarequalifiedandwhether
9 theyareabletopassourstage1process,whichis
10 aprocessthatweuse,andthey'vegottohavethe
11 skillsappropriatetothejobthattheyarebeingasked
12 todo.
13 Q.Yes.Thenextpointthatarisesfromthat,thisclause
14 thatyouarerelyingon,isthat,15:{D/15/186}
15 "AnAdirectorshallnottransferordisposeofall
16 oranyofhisAsharesoranyinterestinanyofthemto
17 anyotherpersonexceptinaccordancewithclause16
18 unlesssuchpersonhasfirstbeenapprovedbySpecsavers
19 asbeinganacceptabletransferee."
20 Thenclause16isthepurchasenoticeprocess.Do
21 yousee?
22 InthecaseofMrPatel,youdidn'tserveapurchase
23 notice,didyou?
24 A.Sorry?
25 Q.InthecaseofMrPatelandhisshares‐‐
128
1 A.Yes.
2 Q.‐‐youdidnotserveapurchasenotice?
3 A.That'scorrect.
4 Q.Sowecanignoreclause16,thepurchasenotice
5 provisions,can'twe?
6 A.Wecan.
7 Q.SoMrPatelasAdirectorcan'ttransferordisposeof
8 hisAshares,canhe,unlessthepersontowhomhehas
9 transferredthemhasfirstbeenapprovedbySpecsavers
10 asanacceptabletransferee?
11 A.Correct.
12 Q.Whodidyouapproveandwhereistheapproval?
13 A.Whodidweapprove...?
14 Q.Forhimtotransferhissharesto?
15 A.Whodidweapprovehimtotransferhisshares‐‐you
16 meanNimeshPatel?
17 Q.Yes.
18 A.Hetransferredthosesharestous.
19 Q.Yes.Andwhendidyouapproveyourselvesasan
20 acceptableAshareholder?
21 A.I'mnotsurethatwehavetoapproveourselves.
22 Q.Okay.Goingbacktoyourwitnessstatement,yousayat
23 paragraph100andthen101{C/9/111}thatyouwerenot
24 involvedintheselectionprocessofMrSingh.Youleft
25 allofthattoMrRyan.Doyouseethat?
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1 A.No.
2 Q.Paragraph101ofyourwitnessstatement?
3 A.Yes.
4 Q.I'msorry,101:
5 "Iwasnotinvolvedintheselectionprocessof
6 MrSinghasthatmatterwasdealtwithby[Mr]Ryan..."
7 A."...inconjunctionwith[Mr]Raines."
8 Q."...inconjunctionwith[Mr]Raines."
9 Atthistime‐‐sothatwaslate2007/beginningof
10 2008,okay?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Istheresomereasonwhyyouhavesteppedoutofthe
13 positionofbeingthecontrollingdirectorofthe
14 Dartfordstore?
15 A.NotthatI'mawareof.
16 Q.HaveyouappointedMrRyanasadirectoroftheDartford
17 store?
18 A.No.
19 Q.OrMrRaines?
20 A.No.
21 Q.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatyouwereinvolvedin
22 approvingordiscussingtheappointmentofMrSingh.We
23 don'tseeitanywhereonthepaperworkbutI'mgoingto
24 suggesttoyouthatyouwereactuallyinvolved,and
25 wouldhavebeeninvolved,discussingthingswith
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1 MrRainesataroundthistime?
2 A.Canyousaythatagain,MrStuart?
3 Q.Yes.Yousaid:
4 "Iwasnotinvolvedintheselectionprocessof
5 MrSingh..."
6 A.Correct.
7 Q.Iamgoingtosuggesttoyouthatyouwereinvolved‐‐
8 "involved"inthesenseofdiscussingitwithMrRaines?
9 A.TheselectionoftheindividualwouldbedonebyMrRyan
10 andMrRaines.
11 Q.Yes.
12 A.AndthenI,asitsaysinhere,wouldhavethefinal
13 say.SoIgetinvolvedatthepointwheretheysay,"We
14 believethatthisindividualistherightindividualfor
15 thisstore".
16 Q.Okay.Andatwhatstagedidtheyadviseyouofthat?
17 A.Whenyousay"atwhatstage",Imean,thisisalong
18 timeago.Idon'tknowwhatyoumeanby"atwhat
19 stage".
20 Q.YouaresayingthattheappointmentofMrSinghis
21 amatter,ifyoulike,wheretheyaredoingaproper
22 investigationintohim;checkingouthiscredentials;
23 assessingwhetherheistherightmanforthestore.
24 That'syourevidence,isn'tit?
25 A.Yes.
131
1 Q.Andthenatsomepoint‐‐
2 A.It'snormalbusinesspracticeforbothMrRyan,
3 sometimesMrHowarthandMrRaines,tobeinvolvedin
4 selectingthejointventurepartners.
5 Q.Okay.Andthenatsomepointtheycometoyouandthey
6 say,"Right,wehavelookedatalltheoptionsand
7 MrSinghisthebestoption"?
8 A.Yes.
9 Q.Andthat'swhyyouapprovehisappointment?
10 A.Correct.
11 Q.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthattheconceptofputting
12 inMrSinghwasoneinwhichyouwereinvolved,in
13 discussingwithMrRainesand/orMrRyanthroughoutthe
14 periodoftimewhentheywereconsideringwhattodo?
15 A.Intermsoftheselectionoftheindividual,therewould
16 havebeen‐‐Idon'tknow.Idon'tknowhowmany
17 individualstheyconsidered.Atapointwheretheyhave
18 madeadecision,thentheywouldtalktomeaboutit.
19 Q.Okay.Isthat‐‐let'sseejustacoupleofdocuments.
20 E5,page1177.ThereisMrRaines‐‐
21 A.E5...?
22 Q.E5/1177.{E/281/1177}
23 A.Yes.
24 Q.ThisisMrRaines'sdaybook.Hehasgotthisbook,
25 likeadiary,wherehenotesdownalltheconversations
132
1 hehaswithpeople,etcetera?2 A.Yes.3 Q.Thisone,whichyouwillseehasbeenputintothis4 bundlebySpecsavers,issomewherebetween9January,5 page1176,{E/280/1176}and21January,page1180.6 {E/284/1180}Sowecanguessthatthisis7 aroundJanuary2008.Wouldyoutakethatfromme?8 A.Yes.9 Q.Andwehavegotaheading,justabovethefirst
10 holepunch:11 "Derek."12 Doyouseethat?13 A.Yes.14 Q.DoyourecallspeakingtoMrRainesatthistime?15 A.Ican'tsayIwouldbeabletopinpointittoadate,16 no,butifyougavemeatopic‐‐17 Q.Aroundthistime‐‐well,thetopicappearstobe‐‐18 secondholepunch:19 "Dominic‐Dartford.(Plan)..."20 Inacircle:21 "Action."22 Thenontheright,someonehasput:23 "Putinplan."24 Orcouldthatbe"place":25 "Putinplace."
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1 Doyouseethat?
2 A.Yes.
3 Q.Doyouknowwhatthatwasabout?
4 A.No.
5 Q.Thisisallundertheheading,"Derek".Itlookslike
6 oneoftheitemsofyourdiscussionwas:
7 "Dominic‐Dartford(Plan).‐Action."
8 WhatplanofactiondidyouhaveforDartford:you,
9 personally,MrDyson,inJanuary2008?
10 A.Whatplan?
11 Q.Yes.
12 A.Iwouldn'thavehadanyplan,otherthandealingwith
13 workoractivitiesassociatedwithdoingmyjob.There
14 wasnoplan.
15 ThisisobviouslyareferencebyMark.Hewants
16 Dominictodosomething.Ihavenoideawhatitis,and
17 heisgoingtotakeanactionagainstthat.
18 Q.WhoisDominic?
19 A.DominicisanRDC,soaRegionalDevelopmentConsultant
20 forLondon.
21 Q.Okay,andwhatwasDominic'sroleinallofthis?
22 A.I'vegotnoidea.
23 Q.Sowhenyouwere‐‐okay.Youcan'trecallthis
24 discussionatallwithMrRaines?
25 A.No,itdoesn'tmeananythingtome.
134
1 Q.Right.
2 MRJUSTICENUGEE:IsitDominicSavill?
3 A.DominicSavill,yes.
4 MRSTUART:Canyoujustgodownfromthere?
5 A.Yes.
6 Q.Youhavegot:
7 "Dominic‐Dartford..."
8 Somethingtodowithdigitalcameras.
9 A.Yes.
10 Q.Doyouseethat?Thenitsays:
11 "Linda‐sendtoDerekDavidClark."
12 A.Yes.
13 Q.What'sthatabout?
14 A.Isuspect,ifyougotothetopofit,itsays:
15 "121."
16 DavidClarkhadjustjoinedthebusinessatthis
17 time,sohehasdoneaninduction.Iimaginethathe
18 wassendingmeacopyofhisinductionplan.
19 Q.Okay.
20 A.BecauseDavidClarkdidgetinvolveindigitalcameras
21 asoneofthefirstjobshedidworkingwithSimon,
22 whosesecondnameIcan'tremember,whosejobitwasto
23 rolloutthispieceofequipmenttoallofthe
24 Specsavers'portfolioofstores.
25 Q.SothatallseemstohavenothingtodowithDartford?
135
1 A.No.2 Q.SotheonlyinterestinDartfordseemstobetheDominic3 itemandtheactionplan,butyoudon'tknowwhatthat4 wasareferenceto?5 A.Ihavenoidea.6 Q.Okay,fine.Wouldyoujustflickontopage1210?7 A.1210?8 Q.Yes.1210.{E/302/1210}WeareintoMarch2008now.9 Doyouseethat?
10 A.Right.11 Q.Doyouhavethat?12 A.Ihavegotit,yes.13 Q.MauraFaller;whoisshe?14 A.SheisJohnPerkins'sPA.15 Q.Okay,so"John"isJohnPerkins.It'sfrom16 MichaelRyan.Heisreportingtoyou,isn'the?Heis17 themanwehaveheardofalready,MichaelRyan?18 A.Heisthebusinesstransfermanager.19 Q.That'sright.Itsays:20 "HiJohn..."21 Andthensomethinghasbeenscrubbedout,whichis22 presumablynothingtodowithDartford:23 "Dartford‐‐I'vespokentoKamSinghwhostill24 wantstheDartfordshares,andhewillstarttheprocess25 ofsellinghisGraysshares.Hewillalsocall
136
1 MichaelMcGonagle,whoIhaveaskedtofacilitatethe
2 initialmeetingwithSwarandeep,andgenerallymanage
3 Kam'sintroductiontothestore.
4 "Wepaid£55,000forNimesh'sshares,soIpropose
5 tosellthemfor£60K,whichis3xp/ebasedoncurrent
6 performance.ThiswillcoverBTfees."
7 That's"businesstransfer"fees;isthatright?
8 A.Yes.
9 Q."Areyouokaywiththissaleprice?"
10 MrDyson,wereyouinvolvedatthisstageinthese
11 discussions‐‐
12 A.NotthatI'mawareof,becauseobviouslyit'sunusual
13 forMichaeltogostraighttoJohn,soImayhavebeen
14 onholiday.
15 Q.Okay.
16 A.OrImayhavebeenoutof‐‐intheNordics.Ihaveno
17 idea;Ican'ttellyouwithout‐‐withoutknowing
18 preciselyontheday.So,itsoundsasifMikeis
19 checkinginwithJohnwithregardtothesharesale.
20 Q.Okay.ButwhowasitwhodecidedtoletMrSinghhave
21 someshares,whichyourbusinesstransferdepartment,
22 MrRyan,hadvaluedinFebruary2007at‐‐rememberthe
23 documentItookyoutofirstthingthismorning?In
24 February2007hevalueditatsomewhereintheregion
25 of‐‐
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1 A.Well,MikeRyandidn't,butsomebody‐‐
2 Q.Amemberofhisstaffdid?
3 A.Yes.
4 Q.Atbetween£80,000and£125,000.Doyouremember?
5 £85,000and£125,000?
6 A.Yes.
7 Q.WhosedecisionwasittosellthosesharestoMrSingh
8 forjust£60,000?
9 A.Well,thatwouldhavebeenMichaelRyan,proposingwhat
10 thevalueoftheshareswasatthetime.So,goingback
11 toyouroriginalquestion,MrRyanandMrRaines
12 obviouslywouldhavelookedatwhoarethepeople‐‐
13 potentialcandidates;theywouldhavedoneaselection
14 ofthebestpersonthattheybelieved,andMichaelRyan
15 wouldhavedoneacalculationofwhattheshareswere,
16 value,tosellittoMrSingh.
17 Q.Wedon'thavethat,yousee.Ididaskyouaboutthis
18 yesterdayandyousaid,"Yes,eachtimewebought,we
19 woulddooneofthosevaluationsandeachtimewesold
20 wewoulddoavaluation".That'swhatyousaid
21 yesterday?
22 A.Yes,wewoulddoavaluation,yes.
23 Q.SowhatwasthevaluationasatMarch2008?Whatwas
24 thevaluationoftheseshares?
25 A.Accordingtothismemo,MichaelRyansaidit's£60,000.
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1 Q.No,hedoesn'tsaythat'sthevalue.Hesaid:
2 {E/302/1210}
3 "Wepaid£55,000...soIproposetosellthemfor
4 £60K..."
5 Thereisnovaluationthere?
6 A.Okay,Itakethepointyouaremaking,butMikeRyan
7 wouldhave‐‐wouldhavemadethatdecision,tosaywhat
8 hebelievedthesharepricewas.
9 Q.MrSinghisgettingarealbargain,isn'the?
10 A.Well,ifit'sbasedonthreetimesP/E,thatmakesit
11 60grand.It'snotdoingverywell.
12 Q.Thereasonit'snotdoingverywellforthatlastyear,
13 betweenMarch2007andMarch2008,isbecauseithashad
14 almost£100,000worthofcharges,fees‐‐
15 A.£65,000forthemanagementcover,yes.
16 Q.Managementcover,plusalltheinvestigationcosts,do
17 youremember?
18 A.Yes.
19 Q.Theseareallunusualitems,aren'tany?
20 A.Butit'salsounusualforthatlengthoftimeto
21 transpire,whichIsaidrightatthebeginningofthe
22 day,becauseweneverenvisagedthatitwouldtakesix
23 monthstodoaninvestigationandadisciplinary.
24 Q.That'snotthequestionI'maskingyou,isit?You
25 acknowledgethatsimplyapplyingafiguretothe
139
1 profits‐‐actuallylosses‐‐earnedinthatlastyear2 isawhollyunusualyear,forwhateverreason‐‐3 illness,suspension,NimeshPatelinvestigation,thefts,4 etcetera.Thosearewhollyunusualitems,andthetrue5 positionhereisthatthiswasacompanywhichwas6 turningoverabout£1millionto£1.2million,with7 profitsofabout£100,000to£120,000?8 A.Idon'tknowwhereyouhavegotafigurefrom£120,0009 onprofitsfrom.
10 Q.Okay.Whatdoyouthinktheprofitswouldbe,stripping11 outtheunusualitems?12 A.Ihavegotnoidea.Ihavegotnothingonwhichto13 base‐‐answerthatquestion.14 Q.Allright,well,ifyouhadabsolutelynoideaandno15 basisfordoingit,onwhatbasisdoyouvaluethese16 sharesat£60,000?17 A.Idonotvaluetheshares.MikeRyanvaluestheshares.18 Thatishisjob.Heisthebusinesstransfermanager.19 Q.Andhedidn'tdiscussitwithyou?20 A.No.21 Q.Allright.Wereyouinvolvedpersonallyatallthen22 fromthispointonwardsinrelationtothis‐‐200823 now‐‐whenMrSinghgetsfinallyappointed,buysthe24 shares,isappointedasadirector?25 A.Imean,Icouldsayno,unlessthereisapointof
140
1 referencethatsaysIwas.It'sverydifficultforme2 tomake‐‐3 Q.Ifyougotoyourwitnessstatement,I'msureyouwould4 haveitthere.5 A.Yes.6 Q.Atparagraph103,lastsentence,yousay:{C/9/112}7 "...MrSinghwasbeingbroughtintoDartfordasin8 myviewhehadthenecessaryretailingskillstocarry9 outtheroleofaRetailJVP."
10 A.Correct.11 Q.Soareyousayingthatyouarethepersonwhohadto12 makethedecisionandthatwasthebasisforyour13 decision?BecauseIcan'tfindanynotesmadebyyouor14 anyemailssenttoyou,saying,"Look,herearethe15 candidates,thischaphasgotspecificretailskills",16 oranythinginfact,anything‐‐17 A.MrRyanandMrRainesmadetheselection.18 Q.Okay.19 A.Theyputthatforwardtome.IendorsedthatIfelt20 thatMrPatelwastherightindividualbecausehewasin21 ‐‐workinginasuccessfulstoreinGrays,performing22 theroleoftheretaildirector.Itwasasuccessful23 store.Ihadnoreasontobelievethathewasn't24 asuitablecandidate.25 Q.Asyousitherenow,doyouactuallyrecallhavingthese
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1 conversations?
2 A.With?
3 Q.MrRyan,Isupposeyouaresaying?
4 A.Notspecifically,no.
5 Q.No.Allright.
6 ThenwecomeontoMrSingh'ssalary,paragraph104.
7 {C/9/112}Wereyouinvolvedinsettingthatsalary,or
8 wasthatamatterforMrRaines?
9 A.Iwasinvolvedbutnotatthepointwhentheoriginal
10 letterwentout.SotheofferletterwenttoMrSingh.
11 Itthenwasdulyreturnedandthenumberwascrossedout
12 andanothernumberwasannotatedonit.Ithinkitwas
13 42.
14 Q.Yes,that'spage1217inbundleE5.March12th.
15 {E/307/1217}
16 A.12...?
17 Q....17.
18 A.Yes.
19 Q.Isthatwhatyouarereferringtoatthebottomthere?
20 A.Yes.
21 Q."...youwillbeactingastheDO/Retailpartnerin
22 Dartfordandwillthereforebepaidintheregionof
23 £32,500..."
24 A.Correct.
25 Q.That'sbecausethatwasthegoingrate,wasn'tit,for
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1 aDOretaildirectoratthattime?
2 A.No,thatwastherateatwhichMrPatelwaspaid.It
3 wasn'tnecessarilythegoingrate.Thegoingratewould
4 be,basedonexperience,anythingfromthatlevelupto
5 £45,000‐ish.Ican'tbecompletelyaccurate.
6 Soitwouldhavebeenbasedonexperience,
7 performanceoftheindividualandhowlongtheyhadhad
8 servicewithus.
9 Q.Didyouplayanypartinthedecision‐makingtofix
10 thesefigures?
11 A.MrRyan‐‐Iremember‐‐thereasonIrememberit,
12 Irememberhimbringingthistome,showingmewhathad
13 happened.AndI,inadiscussionwithMrRyan,said
14 IwashappyoncehehadexplainedthathewasinGrays
15 andhewasearningasimilarsalary.Bearinginmind
16 thatthestorewasn'tmakinglotsofmoney,lotsof
17 dividends,sonotalotofchanceofMrSinghtakingany
18 distributions,Iwashappyatthesalarylevelof
19 £42,000.
20 Q.Yousayasimilarsalary.That'snotright,isit?If
21 wearetalkingaboutbasicsalary‐‐soevenifthe
22 storemakesawhoppingloss,thedirectorstillgets
23 theirbasicsalary.Nobonuses,nodistributions.
24 A.Yes.
25 Q.The£32,500thatwasgoingintotheofferletterforthe
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1 employmentwasbasicsalary,wasn'tit?
2 A.Well,£42,000isbasicsalaryaswell,soI'mnotsure
3 thepointyouaretryingtomake.
4 Q.I'mmakingthepointthatyousaidhewasgetting
5 £42,000inhisotherstore?
6 A.Asbasic‐‐basicsalary.
7 Q.Thatwasn'thisbasicsalary.Doyouhaveevidencethat
8 itwashisbasicsalary?
9 A.No,butIwastoldhewasbeingpaidasimilaramount.
10 Q.Includingbonusesorincludingotherbenefits?
11 A.Myinterpretationoftheinformationthatwasgivento
12 meisthathewasearningasimilarsalaryinGrays.
13 Q.Basicsalary.Youunderstoodthatwhathewasbeing
14 offeredherewas£42,000basic?
15 A.Absolutely,Iunderstandthat100percent.
16 Q.Plusbonusesifappropriate?
17 A.Distributions,areyoutalkingabout?
18 Q.Distributionsasbonuses.
19 A.Yes.
20 Q.Sosalarybonuses;yes?Plusotheremploymentbenefits?
21 A.Correct.
22 Q.Sothe£32,500figurewasjustthebasicsalary
23 entitlement?
24 A.Andsowasthe£42,000thatIagreedwithMikeRyanas
25 basic.
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1 Q.Fine.Andyoubelievedthathewasearning£42,000
2 basicsalaryunderhiscontractofemploymentatGrays?
3 A.Asimilaramountofmoney.
4 Q.Okay.Sofromthat,itdoessoundlikeyouwere
5 personallyinvolvedinthedecisiontopayhimthis
6 amount?
7 A.Whenthiswasbroughttomyattention,yes.
8 Q.Yes.SoMikeRyancametoyouandsaid,"Look,hewants
9 42basic"?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.Andyousaid,"Yes,payhim42"?
12 A.No,Iwouldn'thavejustsaid‐‐Iwouldn'thavejust
13 said,"Yes,basicpayhim".Iwouldhaveaskedsome
14 questionsaroundabout,"Whatarewecurrentlypaying
15 around";"Whatwasheearningbefore",etcetera.So
16 Iwouldhavehadesomeinformationtohandinorderfor
17 metothendoit.Iwouldn'tjustmakeituponasnap
18 decision.
19 Q.Okay.Arethereanynotesoranyemailsfromyou,
20 relatingtoyouapprovingthissalary?
21 A.No.
22 Q.Didyouconsideritwasunusual,£42,000basic?
23 A.No.
24 Q.Couldyouflicktopage1300.{E/349/1300}Thedealby
25 whichMrSinghcameinwasasortofcompositedeal,
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1 wasn'tit?Notjustbasic,notjustsharesale.Itwas2 acompositeofanumberofthings.3 Page1300.Doyourecognisethisformat?4 A.Irecognisetheformat,yes.5 Q.Soobviously,therecameapointwhereitwasdecided6 thatthe50percentAshareholdingwasgoingtobesold7 toMrSingh.Heisinsertedunder"Buyer'sDetails";do8 youseethathalfwaydownthepage?9 A."KamSingh(GraysDirector)"?Isthatwhatyou‐‐yes?
10 Q.Yes.Thesalaryis£42,000?11 A.Yes.12 Q.Lookingabove,undertheseverancepackageitem‐‐this13 isallinrelationtotheseller‐‐thereisanitem14 whichsays:15 "ContingentLiability...16 "Thebuyeracknowledgesthatthereisapotential17 estimatedliabilityof£20,340,payabletoHMRCatsome18 timeinthefuture.Itwillneedtobepaidfromfuture19 profitsandcashflow."20 Doyouseethat?21 A.Ido.22 Q.ThatwastheHMRCpaymentthathadtobepaidin23 relationtoMrPatel'sliability,wasn'tit?24 A.Itwouldhavebeen,yes.25 Q.Yes.
146
1 A.Upuntilthepointheleft.
2 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Sorry,Ididn'tunderstandthat.Whatis
3 MrPatel'sliabilitytoHMRC?
4 A.AtthetimethatMrPatelwasemployedandatthetime
5 heleft,HMRCweredoinganinvestigationastoourdual
6 companystructure.
7 MRJUSTICENUGEE:ThiswastheVATinvestigation?
8 A.Yes.Sowewereputtingmoneyoutofeverybody's
9 accountstoonesideincaseweendedupwithapayment
10 backtoHMRCof‐‐ratherthanleaveitsothatitwas
11 justanumberthatturnedup,weweremakingprovision
12 forthatandmakingsureeverybodywasawareofthat.
13 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Ihavenotquiteunderstoodwhythenyou
14 saidinanswertocounsel'squestionthatitwasthe
15 HMRCpaymentthathadtobepaidinrelationto
16 MrPatel'sliability.Ifit'stheVATinvestigation,
17 it'saliabilityofthebusiness.
18 A.Thathewasemployedandadirectorresponsibleupuntil
19 thepointatwhichheleft,sohewouldhavesome
20 liabilityofthetotal.
21 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Okay,thankyou.
22 MRSTUART:Thenjustgoingdownthatpage,therestofthe
23 deal.Doyouseeundertheheading,"TheDeal",onthe
24 left‐handside?
25 A.Yes.
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1 Q.Thereisaheading"TheDeal":2 "SOGsellsKS50Asharesat£1,200pershare3 totalling£60,000..."4 Doyouseethat?5 A.Ido.6 Q.Soit'sasortofcompositedealwherebyhegets7 a£42,000salary,hegetsthesharesfor£60,000.8 That'sright,isn'tit?9 A.Yes.
10 Q.Allpartofthatdeal.Andthenunderneaththatit11 says:12 "NewShareholdersAgreement/DeedofAdherence."13 Andthenyouhavegotthere:14 "NewJVA."15 Soyouarehopingtogetanewjointventure16 agreementsignedupbyMsBirdiandMrSingh.Isthat17 fair?18 A.Erm...yes,probably.19 Q.Andthenitsays:20 "MPTlevel:£19,700."21 What'sthat?22 A.Minimumperformancethreshold.23 Q.IsthattobeinsertedintothenewJVA?24 A.IthinkitwouldalreadybeintheexistingJVA.25 Q.Sothat'sasortofturnoverfigureforthebusiness‐‐
148
1 A.Yes.
2 Q.‐‐perweek?
3 A.Yes.
4 Q.Sothat's,bymyreckoning,£1millionayearturnover;
5 52weekstimes£19,700?
6 A.Ifyousayso,MrStuart.
7 Q.£20,000times50weekswouldbe£1million?
8 A.Correct.
9 Q.£19,700times52weekswouldbe£1million?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.SoitwaspartofthedealthatMrSinghwasgetting
12 intoacompanywhichhadaminimumturnoverlevelof
13 £1millionturnover;that'sright,isn'tit?Sowhen
14 Isaidtoyouthathewasbuyingthesesharesatabit
15 ofasnip,hewasbuyingthesharesatabitofasnip,
16 wasn'the?Becausetheseweresharesinacompanywhich
17 wasminimumexpectedtoturnover£1million?
18 A.Butbecauseastoretakes£1million,doesn'tmeanto
19 saythatthestoreisgoingtobeprofitable.
20 Q.No,ofcourse.Profitability‐‐
21 A.Becauseitrequiresreallygoodjointventurepartners
22 workingtogetherinordertodrivethebusinessforward,
23 whichisthewholeprincipleonwhichSpecsaversis
24 based.Sojustbecauseittakes£1million,doesn't
25 meantosayitwillmakemoney.
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1 Q.Buttheanticipatedprofitsonaturnoverof£1million
2 wouldbewhat?Inyourexperienceasthe‐‐
3 A.Around10percent.
4 Q.So£100,000profit?
5 A.Yes.
6 Q.That'stheprofitthatisthenavailablefor
7 distribution?
8 A.It'snotnecessarilyavailablefordistribution‐‐
9 Q.Notnecessarily,butwearetalkinginroundterms?
10 A.Itisanumberminusalltheotherthingsthathaveto
11 bedoneinordertogettoadistributionpoint.
12 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Isthat£100,000overandabovethe‐‐
13 A.Theirsalaries.
14 MRJUSTICENUGEE:‐‐basicsalariesfortheJVPs?
15 A.Correct.
16 MRSTUART:Soheisacquiringashareholdingthatwill,in
17 roughandroundterms,payabout£50,000worthof
18 profitsforhis50percentshareholding,andheis
19 acquiringitfor£60,000.That'sasnip.
20 A.Itwillonlypayhimout£50,000iftheprofitabilityis
21 thereandthatwillbedowntothepartnership,working
22 together,controllingcosts,runningthebusinesswell,
23 deliveringgreatservice,tradinghours,etcetera.So
24 thereisnoguaranteethatjustbecauseit's£1million
25 turnover,theyaregoingtomake£100,000profit.
150
1 Q.Noguarantee,no,butsolongashedidallthethings2 whichheshoulddo,andsolongashereceivedhis3 £42,000salaryfordoinghisactualwork?4 A.Yes.5 Q.AndsolongasMsBirdireceivedhersalaryfordoing6 heractualwork,andsolongastheydidn'thaveunusual7 items,like£65,000ofassistantmanager'scostsor8 £20,000worthofinvestigationcosts,hemighthave9 anticipatedprofitsof£100,000‐ish,split50/50with
10 hisjointventureAshareholder?11 A.Inthefuture,yes.12 Q.Soacquiringthosesharesfor£60,000,thatpay£50,00013 ayearpotentially,average,etcetera,thatisasnip,14 isn'tit?15 A.It'samotivationforthepartnershiptodowell.16 Q.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatit'samotivation‐‐17 thatis,thegivingtohimofthosesharesatsuch18 adiscountisamotivationtodowhattheseller‐‐19 here,SOG‐‐asksyoutodo?20 A.No,that'snottrue.21 Q.Andthatifthesellergivesyousharesatasnipand22 asalarylevelatahighpoint,andagreestosupport23 youinanythingyoudo,thatisanincentivetothendo24 whattheseller,SOG,wantsyoutodo?25 A.ThatisnotthecasehereatallandIdisagreewith
151
1 you.2 Q.Tothesameextentthatyoudisagreewithmethatwhen3 youboughtthesharesfromMrPatel,thatwasn'taplan4 ofaction?5 A.Thereisnoplan.There'snotaconspiracyatall.6 Neverhasbeen.I'venotbeenpartofone.Ihave7 actedinthebestinterestsofthebusinessinallmy8 decisions.9 Q.Youhaveactedinthebestinterestsofyourbusiness,
10 SOG;youhaven'tactedinthebestinterestsofthe11 company‐‐12 A.Thebestinterestsofthebusiness.Iwastalkingabout13 DartfordVisionplus,whenImadethatcomment.14 Q.Allright.Veryswiftly,justtofinishthisstatement.15 Atparagraph105yousay‐‐16 A.Isthatmywitnessstatement?17 Q.Yes,yourwitnessstatement.Doyouhaveit?18 A.Ihavegotit.19 Q.Fromthelastwordofline3,yousay:{C/9/112}20 "SOGneverintendedtoholdtheAsharesforthe21 longtermsoapurchaserwasalwaysrequired."22 Isuggesttoyouthat,giventheevidenceIhave23 showedyouthismorning,thatcan'tberight,canit?24 Youcertainlydid,atsomepoint,intendtoholdthe25 Asharesforthelong‐term?
152
1 A.No,wedidn't.2 Q.Youweregoingtoputitintogroupventureorshared3 venture?4 A.Iwasn'tgoingtoputitintoanything.Itmayhave5 endedupingroupventurebydefault,notbecausethere6 isaplantomakeitagroupventurestore.7 Q.Allright.8 A.Wedon'thavegroupventurestoresinthebusiness.9 Ipersonallyremovedthemallfromthebusinesswhen
10 Ijoinedbecausetheyarenotwellrun,theyarenot11 profitable,andthesharedventureandjointventure12 businessisthebestmodel.13 Q.Atparagraph107onpage113,{C/9/113}youdealwith14 theissueaboutMsBirdiraisingobjectiontoMrSingh15 becauseofhisinvolvementinmattersofdishonest16 activityrelatingtohistimeatanotherSpecsavers17 store.Doyourecallthat?18 A.Wheredoesitsay"dishonestactivity"?19 Q.Itdoesn'tuse‐‐inyourstatementitdoesn'tusethat,20 butyouhavesetoutwhatMsBirdi'sobjectionswereand21 weknow‐‐shewascross‐examinedaboutitandshown22 documents‐‐thatshehadputtoMsdelGrazia?23 A.Thisistodowithhis‐‐withMaidstoneorsomestore,24 manyyears‐‐sixorsevenyearsbefore?25 Q.That'sright,wherehisbrotherwastheJVP?
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1 A.No.
2 Q.Whatdoyoumean,no?
3 A.NotinMaidstone.
4 Q.Okay.
5 A.Thisisanissuearoundlocumming,Ithinkiswhatyou
6 arereferringto.
7 Q.Okay.Wereyouawareoftheissueinwhichhewas
8 involvedwithhisbrother,wherehisbrotherwasaJVP?
9 Wereyounotawareofthat?
10 A.Iwasawareofthat,yes.
11 Q.WasthatnotpartofMsBirdi'sobjectionstoMrSingh?
12 A.IknowthatMsBirdiwroteonfourorfiveoccasions
13 withregardtothisandCristinadelGraziawroteback
14 toher.Ican'tremembertheissuesthatMsBirdi
15 raised.
16 Q.Okay.Yousee,thewayyouhaveputithereisthat‐‐
17 I'mreadingfromthefourthlinefromthebottom:
18 {C/9/113}
19 "Eveniftherewasanysupportingdetail,Ididnot
20 considerittobeofsufficientimportance..."
21 Doyouseethat?
22 A.IwasawareoftheGraysscenarioandIdidn'tbelieve
23 thatitwasofimportanceinmydecision‐making.
24 Q.Itappearssomethingofawhitewashyouareconducting
25 here.Youarejustignoringallegationsagainst
154
1 MrSingh?
2 A.No,IamconsideringthoseallegationsthatMsBirdiis
3 raisingandMsBirdiisgettingresponsesbackthrough
4 CristinadelGraziatothequestionsthatsheraises.
5 Q.Well,sheisnotactually,isshe?Specsaverssay,
6 "It'snotamatterforyou"?
7 A.Itwasaprivatemattertodowiththedirectorin
8 Grays.
9 Q.Exactly.SoMsBirdiwasnotbeingtoldthetruth.She
10 wasnotbeinggiventheinformation?
11 A.Shewasn'tbeinggiventheinformationbecauseIdidn't
12 believethatitwasrelevant,becauseit'stodowith
13 anotherstoresomethreeyearspriortoMrSingh
14 purchasingsharesinDartford.
15 Q.Well,thisisamatterofappointinganewAdirector
16 andyouwereactuallygoingtoaskMsBirditoenter
17 intoajointventureagreementwithhim,weren'tyou,
18 anewJVA?Shewasgoingtosignuptoanewagreement
19 tobeapartnerwithhim?
20 A.Idon'tknowaboutanewJVA.Ithinkit'sanexisting
21 jointventureagreement.
22 Q.Ijusttookyoutothedocument,andtheplanwasto
23 signanewJVA.ShewasinfactaskedtosignanewJVA
24 almostimmediatelyafterwards?
25 A.ThisdocumentIhaven'tseenuntilyou'veshowedmenow.
155
1 It'snotadocumentthatInowreferto.Ijust‐‐
2 Ijust‐‐whenI'mtalkingtoMikeRyanandwetalkat
3 ahighlevelaboutwhatactivitywearegoingtodo‐‐
4 thisisMikeRyan'sjob;thisisthedetailbehindit.
5 Q.Shewasentitledtoknowthematerialfactsregarding
6 any‐‐
7 A.Idon'tagreewiththat.Idon'tagreewiththat‐‐if
8 there'dhavebeenanythingmaterialwewouldhaveshowed
9 itwithMsBirdi.WhathappenedinGrayswasthree
10 yearsbeforeandwasnot‐‐wasamattertodowiththe
11 GraysstoreandhadnoimplicationsontheDartford
12 store.
13 Q.Youweregoingtogethertobecomeapartnerwith
14 aperson,aboutwhomshehadheardthatthereweretwo
15 matterspotentiallyinvolvingsomedishonestactivityon
16 hispart?
17 A.AndIconsideredMsBirdi'squestionsandIdidn't
18 believethatthey‐‐thatitwasrelevant.
19 Q.Skippingonto‐‐
20 MRJUSTICENUGEE:MrStuart,ifyouaremovingonto
21 anothertopic?
22 MRSTUART:Iam,myLord,yes.
23 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Wewilltakeafiveminutes'break.
24 (3.15pm)
25 (Shortbreak)
156
1 (3.23pm)
2 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes,MrStuart.
3 MRSTUART:So,MrDyson,wehavealmostreachtheendof
4 yourfirststatementhere.Paragraphs113throughto
5 117{C/9/114}areallaboutMrSingh'sincreasedsalary
6 andbonuspayments,andthesearethebonuspayments
7 thatyoualsorefertoinyoursecondwitnessstatement.
8 Yousetthemoutinmoredetail.The£2,500aquarter,
9 doyouremember?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.Andobviouslythesalaryincreasewhichyoureferto
12 there.
13 Yourjustificationforthesesumsis,as
14 Iunderstandit,inparagraphs115and116.Yousay:
15 {C/9/115}
16 "...MrSinghhadshowngreatcommitmenttohis
17 role..."
18 115?
19 A.Yes.
20 Q."...asaRetailJVPandinimprovingtheperformanceof
21 Dartfordsincehehadjoined.Onthatbasis
22 Iconsideredthathewasentitledtotheusualannual
23 increaseof5percent..."
24 Areyousuggestingthattherewassomestandard
25 5percentsalaryincreasethatappliestoallJVPsin
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1 thecountrywheretheyhaveshowngreatcommitmentand
2 improvedperformance?
3 A.No,whatI'msuggestingisthatthe‐‐wehave‐‐
4 Ithinkwehaveexplainedwehaveacapandthatcapis
5 the‐‐at£50,000,whichis,youknow,apointatwhich
6 wewon'tgobeyond.Butifpartnerswishtoapplyfor
7 payrisesonanannualbasis,wenormallywillallowup
8 to5percentinayear.
9 Q.Allright.MsBirdihadn'treceivedanypayrises,had
10 she?
11 A.From?
12 Q.Atall.
13 A.No,MsBirdihasneverappliedforapayrise,even
14 thoughshewassentdocumentationwhichshecouldhave
15 used,IthinkfromMrMooreorMrKidd.
16 Q.Okay.Youaresuggestingthatit'ssomehowdueto
17 improvedperformance.ThisisinJuly2010yousayyou
18 areanalysingthis;July2010?
19 A.The5percentappliedfor,yes,2010.
20 Q.Soyouwerehavingthisthoughttoyourselfaboutwhy
21 youwerejustifyingpayinghimasalaryincreaseasyou
22 werethinkingaboutitinJuly2010?
23 A.AsIwasthinkingaboutit?
24 Q.Yes.HaveIunderstoodyourevidencecorrectlythatyou
25 werethinkingofgivinghimthispayriseinJuly2010,
158
1 soyouwerelookingatthefigures,forexample,ofhis
2 performance‐‐
3 A.No,Idon'tthinkthat'sright.Ithinkwhathappened
4 wasisMrSinghsentaletterin,askingforapayrise.
5 IwasthenaskedbyAlisonGirollet,astheSOG
6 Bshareholder,toconsidertheletter.
7 Clearly,Iwasn'tgoingtopaythemoneythat
8 MrSinghhadwanted,butIdidgiveitconsiderationas
9 tothefactthathehadn'thadapayriseintheperiod
10 oftimethathehadbeenadirector.Theperformanceof
11 thebusinesshadgoneupandindeedthedividendswhich
12 bothheandMsBirdienjoyedhadalsogoneup
13 significantly.
14 Hewasmanagingthestoreonhisown,without
15 asecondpartner,becausethisisatwo‐partnerstore,
16 andIfeltthatapplyingaretrospectivepayriseto
17 him,forbothJuly2010and2011,wasappropriate.
18 Q.WouldyoubepassedbundleD2.Canyougotopage365.
19 {D/27/365}365?
20 A.Yes.
21 Q.Doyouhaveit?
22 That'stheprofitandlossaccountsconsolidatedfor
23 DartfordSpecsaversLimited.Doyousee?
24 A.Yes.
25 Q.Andwecanseethatisfortheyearended
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1 30September2010.SobyJuly2010,youweretenmonths
2 intothatyear;youstillhadanothermonthuntilthe
3 endofAugust,anothermonthuntiltheendofSeptember,
4 butyouweretenoutoftwelvemonthsoftheyear.
5 Wecanseethatforthatperiod,up
6 toSeptember2010,theturnoverwas£1.193million,
7 whereasthepreviousyear,ithadbeen£1.218million,
8 hadn'tit?
9 A.Correct.
10 Q.AndtheprofitfortheperiodtoSeptember2010,ifwe
11 taketheprofitonordinaryactivitiesbeforetaxation
12 figure,it's£16,225fortheyear,whereasforthe
13 previousyear,ithadbeen£140,842.
14 Soactually,hisperformanceatthis
15 time,July2010,wasn'tparticularlygood,wasit?In
16 fact,itwasprettycalamitous.Turnoverdownand
17 profitsdownby90percent?
18 A.Butthe5percentpayriseisnotbasedonthe
19 profitabilityofthestore;that'sarequestthatthe
20 directorscanputinonanannualbasisandwewill
21 considerthatandwewillnormallypaya5percent
22 increase,aslongasitdoesn'tgoabovethecap.
23 Q.No.At115,{C/9/115}yousaid:
24 "IconsideredthatMrSinghhadshowngreat
25 commitmenttohisrole..."
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1 I'msureyoudidconsiderthat,but:2 "...andinimprovingtheperformanceofDartford3 sincehehadjoined.OnthatbasisIconsideredhewas4 entitledtotheusualannualincreaseof5percentto5 commencefromJuly2010..."6 Soactually,readingthat,youmusthaveactually7 decidedthatabitafter.Thewaythewordsareused8 there,itmusthavebeenafterhehadbeenmanagingthe9 storeonhisownthatyoumadethatdecision.Wouldyou
10 agree?11 A.CanIjustreadit?12 Q.Yes.(Pause)13 Infact,wecancutmuchquickercan'twe?Ishould14 havetakenyoutoparagraph114.{C/9/114}.15 Wecanseewhenyouwereconsideringthis.Youwere16 actuallyconsideringitinSeptember2011.17 September2011,soyouhadthefullyear'sprofitand18 lossaccountstoSeptember2010.Youmusthavedone.19 Soyoumusthaveseenthat2010wasapooryear:20 turnoverdown,profitsdownby90percent.21 Soonwhatbasisdoyouconsiderthathis22 performancewassuchastojustifyasubstantialpay23 increase,backdatedbyoverayear?24 A.Ithinkitsaysitinmystatement,whichsays‐‐25 Q.No,itjustsaysduetohisperformance.I'masking
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1 you,whatabouthisperformance?2 A.Well,hehadbeenmanagingthestoreonhisown,3 single‐handedly.4 Q.Yes,withtheassistanceoflocums,dealingwithallof5 MsBirdi's‐‐6 A.That'snot‐‐thelocumisnotthesameashaving7 anotherpartnerhelpingyoutorunthestore,sharing8 theburden,thelonghours,andprobablyworkingsix9 daysaweek,ratherthanfivedaysaweek,whateverit
10 takes.Soitwasrewardinghimforhimworking11 extremelyhardonhisown,runningthestore,whichwas12 atwo‐partnerstore.Andhehadn'thadapayincrease13 sincehejoined.14 Q.Allright.Okay.Canwemoveswiftlyontotheappeal.15 Youconductedtheappeal.Asyourightlyputitatthe16 endofparagraph120ofyourstatement,youarenot17 intendingtocommentonitatlength.{C/9/116}Doyou18 seethat?19 A.Yes,I'vegotthat.20 Q.Soyoujustbasicallysummarisedyourappeal.Canyou21 gotobundleE‐‐IthinkitisE15?22 A.CanIgetridofanyofthese,MrStuart?23 Q.Yes,getridofeverything.WecanmovetoE15.24 A.Andapagetogoto,MrStuart?25 Q.4192,Ithink,isyourdecision.
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1 A.4192.{E/1068/4192}
2 Q.Itendsat4199withyoursignature.{E/1068/4199}
3 A.Sorry.Yes.
4 Q.Youhavesaidatparagraph118inyourstatement
5 {C/9/115}thattheinvestigationwasdonebyMrClark.
6 Thisisthe2010investigation?
7 A.Yes.
8 Q.Itakeitfromthefactthatthereisnomentionofyou
9 inthiswitnessstatementbeinginvolvedinanywayin
10 the2008/2009issuesbetweenMrSinghandMsBirdithat
11 weheardaboutatlengthduringcross‐examinationof
12 them‐‐sothat'sthefourdays'testingissueandthe
13 allegationandcounter‐allegation,etcetera?
14 A.Yes.
15 Q.Itakeityoupersonallyhadnoparttoplayinanyof
16 that?
17 A.No,notatall.
18 Q.Presumably,fromthepointwhenMrSinghwasappointed
19 anAdirectorbackin2008,youpersonallytookastep
20 backfromallofthis,didyou,becauseyouwereno
21 longerhavingtoactasSOGAdirector?
22 A.Correct.
23 Q.SoyouratherleftittotheAdirectorsandthenthe
24 BdirectorsappointedbySOG‐‐
25 A.Correct.
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1 Q.‐‐atthetime.Sowecanseetheirnamesappearing.
2 MrRoweatonepointbecomesanappointedBdirector;
3 DameMaryPerkins?
4 A.Correct.
5 Q.MrRaines.Isthatright?
6 A.Itsoundsaboutright,yes.
7 Q.Yes.DoIunderstand,fromthefactthattheredoesn't
8 appeartobeanythinginyourwitnessstatementabout
9 that,thatyoupersonally,forwhateverreason,just
10 didn'tgetinvolvedinthatperiod?
11 A.Ididn't,no.
12 Q.Okay.Soyoureallyonlythenbecomeinvolved,asyou
13 say,inDecember2010.Thereisanappealagainstthe
14 disciplinaryfindingsofMrClarkandoverseenby
15 DawnMcIntyre.Andyounowcomebackinvolved;youare
16 toheartheappeal?
17 A.That'scorrect.
18 Q.Isay,"heartheappeal".Therewasnohearing;you
19 justmadeyourdecisionswithoutactuallyhearing
20 MsBirdiinperson?
21 A.No,becauseMsBirdicancelledthe‐‐attendingthe
22 hearingthathadbeenorganised.
23 Q.Yes.Whywereyouchosentohearthisappeal?
24 A.BecauseI'mSOG'sretaildirector.
25 Q.True,but‐‐
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1 A.Andthemajorityoftheissuesareallaroundretailing.2 Q.Ah,butthemajorityoftheissues,ifyoulike,ifyou3 havereadtheappealandyouhavereadeverythingthat4 leduptothatappeal‐‐5 A.Ididreadallthereports,includingMrClark'sreport.6 Q.Absolutely.7 A.DawnMcIntyre'sreport.8 Q.Itinvolvedallthethingsgoingback‐‐accordingto9 MsBirdi,goingbackto2007,didn'tit?Shewastrying
10 tore‐open‐‐11 A.Correct.12 Q.‐‐aspartofherappealallthosethingsbackin2007?13 A.Thathadbeeninvestigatedanddecisionsmade,14 etcetera,yes.15 Q.Whichallinvolvedmembersofyourteam,ifyoulike?16 A.Yes.17 Q.2008and2009.Whyyou,personally?Whywereyou18 chosen?19 A.Ican't‐‐Ican'tanswerthequestion.Ican't20 remember‐‐atthetime‐‐Ihavegivenyoumy21 suggestionisthatI'mtheretaildirectorand22 responsibleforstores,partners,partnerships,23 etcetera,andI'mnormallyanindividualthatgets24 involvedinthesemattersaspartofmyjob.25 Q.Whochoseyou?
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1 A.IthinkIhavejustansweredthequestionbeforeand
2 thatwas,Ithink,Iwasnominatedbecauseof‐‐but
3 Idon'tknow‐‐Idon't‐‐
4 Q.Sorry,youdidn'thearthequestion:whochoseyou?
5 A.Idon'tknow.
6 Q.Whichboardofwhichcompanyappointedyoutodothis?
7 A.Idon'tknow.Idon'tthinkany‐‐
8 Q.Orwhichdirectorofwhichcompanyappointedyoutodo
9 it?Ordidyouappointyourselfbecauseyouwerethe
10 directorofSOG?
11 A.No,Ithink‐‐IthinkIwasappointedtohearthe
12 appealbyVisionplus,DartfordVisionplus,butthat's
13 somethinginmymind.
14 Q.Didyouhaveanydiscussionwithanybody‐‐andI'mnot
15 talkingaboutlegaladvicenow‐‐anydiscussionamongst
16 anydirectorsofanycompaniesaboutwhowouldbethe
17 mostappropriatepersontohearthisappeal?
18 A.No.
19 Q.GiventhewidenatureofwhatMsBirdiwassayingand
20 thepeoplethatshewassayingitagainst‐‐shewas
21 makingallegationsbeginsMrMcAlindon,wasn'tshe?
22 A.Correct.
23 Q.Thatwasthestartofitall.Andagainstwhatyouhad
24 done,backin2007,becauseatthattimeyouwereSOG,
25 actingasAdirector,andallthosecostsandcharges
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1 andeverythingshewantedtosayaboutthat.
2 ShewantedtobringintheappointmentofMrSingh;
3 that's2008.Thatwasreallyonyoursayso,wasn'tit?
4 Andyourfinalsayso?
5 A.Finalsayso,yes.
6 Q.Andifitwasn'tyou,thenitwasyoursubordinates,
7 MrRyanandMrRaines,whodidthat,whoputthattoyou
8 foryoutoapprove?
9 A.Yes.
10 Q.SotherewasalltheimpositionofMrSinghandthen
11 therewasthesupportofMrSingh,soshesaid,the
12 biasedsupportofMrSingh,throughout2008and2009.
13 Doyourecall?Thatwasalsoallpartofher...
14 Now,allofthoseaspectsofthematterthatshesaw
15 ascentraltoherappealandasbeingreallythemotive
16 behindallofthis,theyreallyallcameunderyour
17 supervision,didn'tthey,allofthosethings?
18 A.Inthemain.
19 Q.So,surely,youarejudgeandjuryonatrialwhere
20 really,it'syouandyourdepartmentswhoarefacingthe
21 allegations,sofarasshewasconcerned?
22 A.IcanunderstandwhythatmightbeMsBirdi'sview.
23 Q.SoofallthepeopleinallofSOG,perhapsyouwerethe
24 leastappropriateperson,ifweweretryingtofind
25 afairandunbiasedappealtribunal,whichiswhatyour
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1 SOGpoliciessayaremostimportantinthedisciplinary2 process:atallstages,fairandunbiased.Doyou3 remember?4 A.Yes.5 Q.It'snotfairandyouarenotunbiasedwhenitcomesto6 dealingwiththeallegationsthatformedthebasisof7 MsBirdi'sappealandhergeneralcomplaintshere.You8 areneitherfairnorunbiased,areyou?9 A.Youmaysaythat.IthinkIamfairandIthinkIam
10 unbiased.11 Q.Areyousurethatyoudon'trecallhowitwasthatyou12 cametobeappointed,andthatitwasasaresultof13 adecisionoftheboardofSOGtoensurethatthiswas14 thefinalnailinthecoffin?15 A.Notatall.16 Q.Right.Very,veryswiftly,althoughyouarenot17 commentingonallthedetailofit,yousayat18 paragraph122thatyou:{C/9/116}19 "...discussedthepointsofappealfurtherwith20 MrMooreofSOG'sLegalDepartment..."21 A.Correct.22 Q.That'swhatyousay:23 "...inoraroundMarch2011..."24 I'mnotingtheuseofwordsthere:25 "...beforereachingmydecision."
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1 Doyouactuallyhaveanyrecollectionnowofsitting
2 downandgoingthrougheachofthesepointsofappeal
3 yourself‐‐
4 A.Absolutely‐‐
5 Q.‐‐ratherthanleavingittothelegaldepartmentto
6 draftsomethingforyou?
7 A.‐‐Ihavegot100percentrecollection.
8 Q.Okay.I'mgoingtosuggesttoyouthatpage4192
9 throughtopage4199wasdraftedforyouandthatyou
10 didn'teithertypeordictate‐‐{E/1068/4192}
11 A.No,Iwasgiven‐‐Iwasgivenalloftheinformationby
12 MrMoore.
13 Q.Yes.
14 A.Iconsultedwithhim,whichwecan't‐‐wewon'tgo
15 into.
16 Q.No.
17 A.AndthatwasaroundFebruary,becausewethoughtwe'd
18 gotanappealtodealwithonaface‐to‐facebasiswith
19 MsBirdi.Itwasthen‐‐obviouslythatwasn'tgoingto
20 happen,andIspentthreeorfourweeksworkingmyway
21 throughallofthepaperworkthatMrMoorehadprovided
22 me,whichwasDavidClark'sreport,DawnMcIntyre's
23 report,theboard‐‐meetingwiththeboardinwhich‐‐
24 whereMsBirdiwassacked,MsBirdi'sletterofappeal.
25 SoIhadquiteabitofdocumentationandItookmy
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1 timetoworkmywaythroughthat.Ididconsultwith
2 MrMooreonmanyoccasionsandthenIreachedmy
3 decision.
4 Q.Hm‐mm.That'snotactuallywhatIaskedyou.Iasked
5 youwhetherthisdocumenthere,4192to4199,wereyour
6 wordsorthosedraftedforyou,andI'msuggestingto
7 youtheyarenotyourwords;theyweredraftedforyou?
8 A.AndItookmytimetogothroughthis,consultedwith
9 Legalandthisismyfindings.
10 Q.Thisis?
11 A.Thesearemyfindings.Thesearemywords.
12 Q.Sohowdidyoucometodraftthisdocument?Didyou
13 typeityourself?
14 A.No.
15 Q.No.Didyougiveittoyoursecretaryforhertotype?
16 A.No,itwasprobably‐‐itwasprobablyhandwrittenat
17 thetime.
18 Q.Soyoumademanuscriptnotesagainstyourpack‐‐you
19 saidinyourstatementyouhadgotapackofmaterials?
20 A.Yes.
21 Q.Thatwasinparagraph122:{C/9/116}
22 "Iwasprovidedwithapack..."
23 A.Yes.
24 Q.Soyoumademanuscriptnoteshavinggonethroughallthe
25 materials,reachingcertainconclusionsinmanuscript,
170
1 andthat'ssortoftheendofyournotesofyourappeal
2 decision?
3 A.Yes.
4 Q.Andthen‐‐
5 A.Andthen‐‐
6 Q.‐‐thosesomehowturnintothis‐‐
7 A.AndthenlongconversationswithMrMoore.
8 Q.Yes,andlongconversationswithMrMoore,whichIdon't
9 wanttogointo.
10 A.No.
11 Q.Butsomehow,yourmanuscriptnotes‐‐whichwouldrunto
12 howmanypages,roughly?
13 A.Well,therewould‐‐therewouldhavebeenlotsofnotes
14 ontheactualdocumentationandIwouldhavebeen
15 pickinguppointsandwritingthemdownasIwasgoing
16 throughthedocumentsfollowingtheappealthatMsBirdi
17 madeinalogicalorder,workingmywaythroughthe
18 pointsthatshewasraising.
19 Q.Yes.Now,yourpack,withyourmanuscriptannotations
20 showingthatyouactuallyaddressedyourmindtoanyof
21 this‐‐whereisthatpackwithyourmanuscript
22 annotations?
23 A.Ihavegotnoidea.
24 Q.Whatdidyoudowithitwhenyouhad‐‐becauseit's
25 obviouslyaveryimportantdocument.Youknewthat
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1 therewasadisputearisinghere,didn'tyou?
2 A.Therewasadispute.Thiswasanappeal.
3 Q.Yes,itwasanappealagainstherdismissal.
4 A.Sothatwouldhavebeengiventothelegalteam.
5 Q.What,thepack?Youhandedthepackbacktothelegal
6 team?
7 A.Allof‐‐allofmynotesandallofmyannotations
8 wouldthengotothelegalteam;yes.
9 Q.Right.Sodoyouknowwhathashappenedtothemsince?
10 A.No.
11 Q.No.
12 MRPOTTS:MyLord,anissueofprivilegeisassertedandis
13 reliedupon.
14 MRSTUART:Theseareannotationsthatyoumadeinyour
15 capacityasthedecideroftheappeal;annotationsthat
16 youmade?
17 MRPOTTS:Ifmyfriendisaskingforalegalargumentabout
18 it,Iwillgivehimone.
19 MRSTUART:No,no,I'mnotaskingforanylegalargument;
20 I'maskingforclarificationastofactssothatwecan
21 seewhetheranysubsequentlegalargumenthasanybasis
22 whatsoever.
23 MRPOTTS:Well,MrDysonisentitledtotakelegaladvice.
24 MRSTUART:Yes,andIamnotaskingfordocuments
25 relating‐‐
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1 MRPOTTS:Andthecompany‐‐thisisnot
2 DartfordVisionplus.Thecompanyhasnotbeencharged
3 forthatlegaladvice.Heisentitledtoreceiveadvice
4 fromSOG'sinternallegaldepartmentandhetooksuch
5 advice.
6 MRJUSTICENUGEE:ButIthoughtthatwhatMrStuartwas
7 askingaboutwashismanuscriptdraftofthedecisionon
8 theappeal,togetherwithannotationshehadmade?
9 MRPOTTS:MyLord,therehasbeendiscussionwith‐‐
10 Idon'tknowifnowistheappropriatetime,butthere
11 hasbeenadiscussionaboutthemethodologyinrelation
12 totheproduction‐‐
13 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
14 MRPOTTS:MrDysonhasconfirmedthatthisrepresentshis
15 end,theendproduct,anditrepresentshisviewsand
16 hisfindingsontheappeal.Communications,theback
17 andforthofcommunicationswithlawyersinrelationto
18 theproductionofthat,isamatterinrespectof‐‐
19 thebackofforthofcommunications,thegivingand
20 takingoflegaladviceinrelationtoamatter,is
21 amatterinrelationtowhichprivilegemayproperlybe
22 asserted.
23 MRSTUART:Idon'twantthebackandforthof
24 communications.MrDysonhas‐‐
25 MRPOTTS:Myfriendisaskingforthebackandforth.
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1 MRSTUART:No,I'mnot.
2 MRPOTTS:MrStuartisaskingforthebackandforth.
3 MRSTUART:No,I'mnot.
4 MRJUSTICENUGEE:MrStuart,whatareyouaskingfor?
5 MRSTUART:AsIunderstandyourevidence,MrDyson,itis
6 thatyouwerethedirectorwhoconsideredthisappeal?
7 A.Correct.
8 Q.Youarethedecisionmaker.Yousaythatyouhadapack
9 ofmaterial,giventoyouastheappealdecisionmaker?
10 A.That'scorrect.
11 Q.Andthatyoumademanuscriptannotationsofyourownon
12 thatpackaspartofyourdecision‐makingprocess?
13 A.Correct.
14 Q.Youthen‐‐
15 MRPOTTS:MyLord,sorry,theadditionalpointIshould
16 make,justfrom(inaudible)thebackground,isthat
17 thereisadversariallitigationinvolvingMsBirdiand
18 shehascommencedemploymenttribunalproceedings.
19 MRSTUART:That'sright,andinthoseemployment
20 tribunal‐‐
21 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes,Iwasawareofthat.
22 MRPOTTS:Yes.
23 MRJUSTICENUGEE:ButIthinkatthemoment,thereisstill
24 alackofclarityastowhatdocumentitisthat
25 MrDysonisreferringtoandtowhatextentthat
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1 encompassesprivilegedmaterial.AndIthinkthat's
2 whatMrStuartistryingtoclarifyatthemoment.
3 Atthemoment,Ihaven'theardanyquestionsasking
4 forthecontentofthatmaterial,butjustwhatitis,
5 andIthinkMrStuartcancontinuetotryandelucidate
6 fromMrDysonwhatdocumentarymaterialexisted,and
7 thenwewillseewherewegofromthere.
8 MRPOTTS:MyLord,it'squiteafineline,buttheredoes
9 comeapointwhere,whenaskingaboutthenatureof
10 adocument,thatgivesaninsightinrelationtothe
11 contentsofthedocument.
12 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Well,IthinkIamgoingtoaskMrDyson
13 somequestions.
14 Myunderstandingoftheanswersyouhavealready
15 givenMrStuartisyoureceivedapackofmaterialto
16 considerwhenconsideringtheappeal?
17 A.Correct.
18 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Youmadenotesonthatpackofmaterial
19 inrelationtothematterswhicharoseontheappeal?
20 A.Correct.
21 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Whenyouweremakingthosenotes,was
22 thatyourownthoughtprocess,orwasthatsomethingon
23 whichyouweretakinglegaladvice,beforeoratthe
24 timeofmakingthenotes?
25 A.Iwouldhavereviewedthedocumentation,madenotesand
175
1 startedtoformmyownopinion,andthenIwouldconsult
2 withthelegalteam.
3 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Therecomesastageatwhichyouaskthe
4 lawyers,butbeforethatstage,youmakeyourown
5 considerationofthematterswhichappearontheappeal?
6 A.Correct.
7 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.AndIthinktheotherquestionis:
8 doyouknowwhathashappenedtothelegalpackof
9 material‐‐thepackofmaterialyoureceivedonwhich
10 youstartedmakingyournotes?
11 A.Ihavenoidea.
12 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Right.
13 MrStuart,doyouwanttotakethisanyfurther?
14 MRSTUART:MyLord,yes,Iwanttojusttakeitonfrom
15 there.
16 Leaveasidethepackwithyournoteson,sothese
17 arepiecesofpaperwithyourmanuscriptnotesonthem;
18 fromanotheranswerthatyougaveIthoughtyouwere
19 alsosayingthatyouthenproducedforyourself‐‐for
20 yourself,notforthelegaldepartment,foryourself‐‐
21 somesortofstructureddecision‐makinginrelationto
22 allthepointsmade‐‐
23 A.No.
24 Q.‐‐inmanuscript?
25 A.No.
176
1 Q.Youdidn'tdothat?
2 A.No.
3 Q.Fine.Soit'sjustyournotesonthepackthatformany
4 documentaryevidenceofyouhavingyourselfaddressed
5 theissuesthatwereputtoyoubyMsBirdi?
6 A.Correct.
7 Q.Westartedallofthisonthebasisofthisisyour
8 document,thisdocumenthere,signedoffbyyou;okay?
9 A.Yes.
10 Q.Andifyoutellmethatthisdocumentwasdraftedfor
11 you,asaresultoflegaladvice,thenIwillnotask
12 youanymoreaboutit.If,ontheotherhand,yousay,
13 "No,Idrafted,"or,"Icausedtobedrafted"thewords
14 setoutherebysomeotherpeoplewhophysicallytyped
15 themup,thenIwillaskyouaboutit.
16 So,didyoudraftthewordssetouthereornot?
17 A.Intheprocessofcomingtomydecision,whichwasdone
18 overquiteaconsiderableamountoftime‐‐because
19 Ithinkitwasaboutthreeorfourweeksofdoingit‐‐
20 Iwouldhavedealtwiththeissuesanddoneannotations,
21 madesomenotesandthenIwouldhavethenwenttothe
22 legalteamtotalktothemabouttheprocessIwasgoing
23 throughandtogetadvice‐‐
24 Q.Idon'twanttoknowwhatadviceyougot.I'mnot
25 askingbutit.Buttheremusthavecomeastagewhere
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1 someonedraftedthisdocument?2 A.Thatwouldhavecomefromthelegalteam.3 Q.Fine.That'stheanswerthen.4 Areyousuggestingthatalltheargumentssetoutin5 hereareyourownarguments,theargumentsinrebuttal6 ofthepointsofappeal?7 A.Yes.8 Q.So,forexample,ifwejusttakeoneexample,thelast9 page,4199{E/1068/4199},thereisanargumentabout
10 theinterpretationofclause9.2ofMsBirdi'sservice11 contract.Doyouseethat?12 A.Ido.13 Q.Andthecounter‐argumentisputinthefifthparagraph:14 "Idonotagreewithyourassertion..."15 Soit'swrittenasifbyyou?16 A.Correct.17 Q."Idon'tagreewithyourassertionthatthe18 circumstancesofyourdismissalbyDVLfallsunderthe19 scopeofclause9.2.However,inanyeventclause9.220 isnotanexhaustivelistoftheonlypossiblereasons21 whyaJVPcouldeverbedismissed'withimmediate22 effect',ieeitherwithnonoticepay,orwithpayin23 lieuofnotice.Contrarytoyoursuggestion,itisdoes24 ..."25 I'mnotsurewhat'sgoneonthere:
178
1 "...itisdoesnotsaythattheonlysituations2 whereDVLcouldeverdismissaJVPwithpayinlieuof3 noticearethefoursituationsin9.21‐9.24.Rather,4 clause9.2issimplyanillustrativelistofsome5 situationswhich'may'leadtodismissal."6 Areyousayingthat'syourpersonalargument?7 A.That'smypersonalargumentbasedonexperience,8 rememberingthisisnotthefirstappealthatI'vedone.9 IhaveworkedforTescofor27/28years.Iknowthat
10 youputintodocumentsthingsthatareillustrativebut11 arenotnecessarilyexhaustiveintermsofwhatcanbe12 broughtinthesecircumstances.13 Q.Yes.Butdidyouyourselfthenaddressher‐‐didyou14 gotoherservicecontract?15 A.DidIgotoherservice‐‐16 Q.Yes,didyoupickupherservicecontract,lookat17 clause9.2,startlookingatthesubclauses,9.2.1.We18 finditinbundleD1atpage17{D/3/17}.Areyou19 suggestingthisisyourargument?20 A.D1?21 Q.D1,page17.Doyouseeit?That'sMsBirdi'sservice22 contract.Page15,theheadsheet.Andclause9.223 appearsonpage17.Doyouseethat:24 "9.2Thecompanymaybynoticeterminatethis25 agreementwithimmediateeffectiftheexecutiveshall
179
1 "9.2.1commitanyactofgrossmisconduct..."2 Doyouseethat?3 A.Ido.4 Q."...or5 "9.2.2beguiltyofanyconductwhichinthe6 reasonableopinionoftheboardbringshimorthe7 companyintoseriousdisrepute..."8 A.Yes.9 Q."...or
10 "9.2.3beconvictedofanycriminaloffence...or11 "9.2.4commitanyactofdishonestywhetherrelating12 tothecompanyoranyofitsemployeesorotherwise."13 A.ButMsBirdispecificallyraisesthisissueinher14 appeal,soIwenttothespecificareathatsheraised15 inherappeal.16 Q.Didyou?Youhadherservicecontract,didyou?17 A.Idon'tknowifitwasherservicecontract.Iwould18 havehadatleastapieceofpaperwiththaton.19 Ican'tsaytoyouitwasMsBirdi'sbutitwouldhave20 beenashareholder'sagreement.21 Q.Okay.Andsothiswasyourargument,whereitsays:22 "However,inanyeventclause9.2notanexhaustive23 listoftheonlypossiblereasonswhyaJVPcouldever24 bedismissed'withimmediateeffect'..."25 A.Thatisbasedon40yearsofexperienceindealingwith
180
1 thesethingsthroughretailanddealingwithemployment2 lawissues,dealingwithtribunals,knowingthatyouput3 downexamplesofwhatitmaybebutthelistisn't4 alwaysexhaustiveandthereareotherthingsthatmay5 causepeopletoterminateemployment.6 Q.Sothat'syourinterpretationofthatclauseofthat7 agreement,thatit'sanon‐exhaustivelist?8 A.Itis.9 Q.Allright.Paragraph124yousay:{C/9/117}
10 "Therewasnothingnewformetoconsideronthe11 appeal."12 Youeffectively,don'tyou,supporteveryoneof13 MrClark'sandMsMcIntyre'sdecisions?14 A.Yes,therewasnothingbecauseMsBirdididn'tattend15 theappealtogivemeanyotherevidence,otherthanher16 appealletter.17 Q.Butthatwasaverylongletter,wasn'tit?18 A.Sorry?19 Q.Thatwasaverylongletter,herappealletter?20 A.Yes.21 Q.Doyourememberitatall?22 A.Ido.Ihavethatasacopy,whichwas‐‐Iworkedmy23 waythrough.ItwassenttoAlisonGirollet.24 Q.Page4132rightthroughtopage4138.{E/1056/3132}25 A.WhichpackamIin,sorry?
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1 Q.Sorry,youarestillinE15.That'stheonlyoneyou
2 needtohave,E15.
3 A.4...?
4 Q....132throughto4138.
5 A.Yes,gotit.
6 Q.Shehadsetoutforyou,hadn'tshe,averylargeamount
7 ofexamplesofthemistreatmentthatshehadsuffered,
8 etcetera,etcetera?
9 A.Yes.
10 Q.Andyouaresayingyouconsideredallofthatbutsimply
11 cametotheconclusionthattherewasnothingnew?
12 A.No,mostofthishadbeendealtwithbyeither
13 DavidClarkorMsMcIntyreatapointinthepastwhen
14 theyweredoingtheirowninvestigations.
15 Q.Okay.Wouldyougofinallytheninyourfirstwitness
16 statements,undertheheading"Conclusion",
17 paragraph126.{C/9/117}Yousay:
18 "TheallegationthatSOGhadadesiretoremove
19 MsBirdifromtheDartfordbusinessisfalse."
20 A.That'strue.
21 Q.Butit'snotthepoint,right,isit?Wehaveseenthe
22 evidencethatyoudidhaveanintentionatsomepointto
23 removeherfromthebusinesssothatyouwouldhavethe
24 shares‐‐
25 A.Youkeepsayingthat,MrStuart.Idon'trecognisewhat
182
1 youaresayingorwherethereferenceis.Therewas
2 neveranyintentiononmybehalftodoanythingother
3 thanmanagethiswholeprocessfurther,andtherewasno
4 intentiontogetridofMsBirdiatall.
5 Q.Butthedocumentaryevidencefrommembersofyourshared
6 ventureteamandfrommembersofyourbusinesstransfer
7 team‐‐
8 A.Butthesearepeoplethatarenotinmakingdecisions.
9 Idon'tknowwhytheydidit.Idon'tknowwhattheir
10 motivationwasincarryingoutthatsurvey.Ican't
11 comment.Ineversawit,wasnotinvolvedinit.Ican
12 onlytalkaboutatmylevelwhatIwasdoingandhow
13 Iwasperformingmyduties,andIneverhadany
14 intentionatalltoremoveMsBirdifromthebusiness.
15 Q.Buttheyallworkedforyou‐‐thatsharedventuresteam
16 andthebusinesstransferteamworkedandreportedto
17 you‐‐
18 A.Iunderstandwhatyouaresaying.
19 Q.‐‐didn'tthey?
20 A.It'sabigbusiness,abigorganisation,andpeople‐‐
21 yes,youcansaynotdirectlybutindirectlyIwas
22 responsibleforthosepeople;theywereinmyteam.
23 Q.Andquitedirectly.MrRyanworkeddirectlyforyou?
24 A.That'snotthesameassharedventure.Sharedventure
25 doesn'tworkfor‐‐directlytome;itworksto
183
1 JillClark.
2 Q.Isaidsharedventureandbusinesstransfer.
3 A.Businesstransferdidworkdirectlyforme.
4 Q.Andthesharedventureaspectworkedtoyouthrough
5 MsClark,yousay?
6 A.Correct.
7 Q.Andyouwerepersonallytakingaverydetailedamountof
8 involvementinDartford,weren'tyou?Wehaveseenyour
9 fingerprints,ifyoulike,alloverit.
10 A.Atvariouspointsintime,yes.
11 Q.Andcertainly‐‐well,from2007and2008,whenthose
12 documentswerecreated?
13 A.Thosedocumentsbeing?
14 Q.TheonesItookyoutoearliertodayshowingthatthe
15 membersofyoursharedventureteambelievedthat
16 100percentofthesharesweregoingtobeyours.
17 A.That'swhatitsaysonthedocument.Ihaveno
18 knowledgeofit.NordidIaskthemtodothat.
19 Q.Sowehavegotthosetwodepartmentsworkingtoyou,and
20 then,ofcourse,thethirdaspectisMrMcAlindonand
21 hisLossPreventiondepartment.Theyworktoyou,don't
22 they?
23 A.Theydo.
24 Q.Hereportsdirectlytoyou?
25 A.Hedoes.
184
1 Q.Andsoifwejustlookedatthosethreedepartments,and
2 youabovethem,allofthosepeopleappeartobeworking
3 towardsremovingMsBirdifromthestore.
4 A.Idon'tacceptthat.
5 Q.Paragraph127.{C/9/117}Yousay:
6 "MsBirdihadignoredalegitimateboardinstruction
7 toconductsighttestsforfourdaysaweek."
8 A.Yes.
9 Q.Areyoureferringtoaboardmeetingwhichrecordedthat
10 shehadagreedtodothat?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Didyoupersonallyhaveanyknowledgeorinvolvementin
13 that‐‐
14 A.No.
15 Q.‐‐in2009?
16 A.No.
17 Q.No?Iwon'taskyouaboutitthen.And128‐‐thisis
18 yourlastparagraph:{C/9/118}
19 "SOGdoesnotdesirethataJVPberemovedforcibly
20 fromabusiness."
21 That'snotquitetrue,isit?
22 A.Thatisabsolutely‐‐
23 Q.InsomecasesSOGdodesirethat.
24 A.Sorry?
25 Q.Yousay:
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1 "SOGdoesnotdesirethataJVPberemovedforcibly
2 fromabusiness."
3 AndI'mputtingtoyouthatthatisanover
4 simplification,ageneralisation,whichisnottrue.
5 SometimesSOGdoesdesiretoremove,toexit,inyour
6 terms,aJVpartnerfromthebusiness?
7 A.Yes,iftheyhavedonesomethingthattheydeserveto
8 exitfor.
9 Q.Hm‐mm.Iftheyhavenotdonewhatyouwantthemtodo?
10 A.That'snotwhatIsaid.
11 Q.No,I'mputtingittoyou‐‐youseeIhavetoputitto
12 youbecauseit'sthecasethatMsBirdiasserts.She
13 assertsthatiftheJVpartnerdoesn'tdowhatyou
14 wantedthemtodo,whatSOGwantsthemtodo,youwill
15 cometoormaycometotheconclusionthatyouwould
16 liketheJVpartnerexitedfromthebusiness?
17 A.OnlyiftheJVpartnerhasdonesomethingthatthey
18 deservetobeexitedfromthebusinessfor‐‐theonly
19 circumstance.
20 Q.Well,MsBirdihadn'tdoneanythingtodeservethis,had
21 she,savethatshehadfallenfoulofMrMcAlindon,who
22 considered‐‐well,weknowwhathisviewsofherwere.
23 A.Herexitwasbecausetherelationshiphadcompletely
24 brokendownbetweenSOG,MsBirdiandMrSingh.
25 Q.Ifthatweretrue,thatwascausedbyMrMcAlindon
186
1 havingcommencedaprocessofharassingherfrom2 February2007onwards‐‐3 A.Idon'tacceptthatwecommencedaprocessof4 harassment;wecommencedaprocesstoinvestigate5 allegationsthatweremadeagainstherbyherfellow6 director,whoweexitedforthoseactivities.7 Q.YouhavealreadyagreedthatifMrMcAlindondidwhat8 MrsFrondigounsayshedid,hisattitudetowards9 MsBirdiwaswhollyimproper‐‐ifhediddowhatit's
10 saidhedid?11 A.Okay.12 Q.Youwouldagreewiththat?13 A.IftheallegationthatMsFrondigounmadeare‐‐14 Q.Aretrue‐‐15 A.‐‐true.16 Q.‐‐thenMrMcAlindonhadamaliciousattitudetowards17 MsBirdifromthatpoint,didn'the?18 A.Amaliciousattitude?I'mnotsureIwouldagreehehad19 amaliciousattitude.20 Q.Callingsomebody"arealbitch",it'smalicious,isn't21 it?22 A.Iwouldhavetoacceptthat,MrStuart,yes.23 Q.So,totheextentthattheprocessstartedwiththatand24 thencarriedonintoalloftheotherthingsthat25 MsBirditalksabout,thatwouldbe,wouldn'tit?
187
1 A.ButduringthewholeofthisprocessMsBirdineverever2 triedtomakethiswork:compromise,mediate,follow3 instructions,youknow,everything.Wetriedourvery,4 verybesttomakethispartnershipworkandMsBirdi5 refusedeveryopportunitytotryandmakeitwork,as6 farasIcansee.7 Q.Well,haven'tyoujustthenmoreorlesscometothe8 sameconclusionasme:ifshedoesn'tdowhatyouwant9 hertodo,youwillexitherfromthebusiness?
10 A.That'snotwhatIsaid.Ijustsaidshefailedtoeven11 tryandmeetpeoplehalfwayonthejourneytotryand12 makethisbusinessopportunityworkreally,reallywell,13 whichitcouldhavedoneforbothofthem.14 Q.ShehadbeenanexcellentJVpartnerfortenyears,and15 suddenly,in2007onwards,youdescribeherasthemost16 difficultone.17 A.Wedidnot‐‐wedidnotgointothestoreandnot18 uncoverthingsthatwerewrong.Neitherdid,when19 MrPatelmadehisallegations,findthatwhathewas20 sayingwasnotabsolutelytrue.Iknowyouhavemade21 yourpointaboutoneaspectofit,butotherthingshe22 saidweretrue.Wedidn'tmakethatup.Wedidn't23 engageinmakingtheallegations.Otherpeoplemade24 them.Allwedidwasfollowthatupthrough25 investigationanddisciplinaryproceduresandtriedon
188
1 numerousoccasionstotryandmakethepartnershipwork
2 throughoffersofmediationandotherthings.
3 Q.Allright.Ijusthavetodealveryquicklywithyour
4 twoshortstatements.IfyougotobundleC,tab10?
5 A.Tab?
6 Q.10{C/10/119}.
7 A.Ihavegotthat,MrStuart.
8 Q.IthinkIhavealreadydealtwithsomeoftheparts
9 aboutMrSingh,butyoudealhere‐‐doyouhaveit,
10 tab10,yoursecondstatement?
11 A.Yes.
12 Q.Atparagraphs5,6,7,8,onwardsyoudealwithpayments
13 toMrPatel,creditcardpayment‐‐theTHPIhave
14 alreadydealtwith‐‐thetaxpayment‐‐
15 A.Yes.
16 Q.‐‐andhiscompanycar.Didyoupersonallyhaveany
17 involvementinanyofthis?
18 A.No.
19 Q.Soalthoughithasbeenputintoyourstatementhere,by
20 wayofasortofformalresponsestatement,theseare
21 notmattersarewhereyoupersonallydealtwithit?
22 A.No,Iwasn'tpersonallyinvolved.
23 Q.Allright.ThenI'mnotgoingtoaskyouanymoreabout
24 those.
25 YouthenmoveontoMrSinghfromparagraph19
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1 onwards.Doyouseethat?{C/10/122}
2 A.Yes.
3 Q.Firstofall,theequalisationdividendandthe£14,942
4 yourefertoatparagraph22.{C/10/123}Didyou
5 personallyhaveanyknowledge‐‐
6 A.Sorry,isthat...?
7 Q.Soparagraph22.
8 A.Not17?Paragraph22?
9 Q.Yes,inparagraph22?
10 A.Okay.
11 Q.Youreferbacktotheequalisationdividend‐‐yousee,
12 MrPatelhadagreedthatMsBirdiwasentitledtoan
13 equalisationdividend,shesays.
14 A.Shesaid,yes.
15 Q.Shesays.Butthathadn'tbeenpaidbythetime
16 MrSinghbecametheAshareholder.Doyouunderstand?
17 A.Thisistodowiththecar,isn'tit?ButMsBirdiwas
18 alreadyduethefirst£14,942asanequalisation.
19 Ithoughtthatwastodowiththecar.Because,you
20 rememberthatMrPatelhadbeengiftedhiscar.Icould
21 bewrongbutIthoughtthat'swhat‐‐
22 Q.Isupposemyquestionwasthis:wereyoupersonally
23 involvedinanyofthis?
24 A.No,Iwasn't,no.
25 Q.Wecanseefromthedocumentswhatthedocumentssay
190
1 but‐‐
2 A.Sorry,Imisunderstoodthequestion.
3 Q.‐‐myquestionis:didyoupersonallyhaveanyknowledge
4 ofanyoftheseactualtransactions?
5 A.No.
6 Q.I'mnotgoingtoaskyouaboutthose.
7 Overthepage.Thisispage124now,thelasttwo
8 pagesofyourstatement,124to126.{C/10/124}Doyou
9 seethat?
10 A.Yes.
11 Q.Undertheheading,"PayRiseandBonuses".Doyousee
12 that?
13 A.Ido.
14 Q.Ihavealreadydealtwiththequestionofsomeofthe
15 payrises.Butatparagraph36‐‐
16 A.Yes.
17 Q.‐‐yousetoutthereanargumentaboutwhyMsBirdi
18 shouldn'tbeseeninthesamewayasMrSinghwhenheis
19 inhiscapacityassoledirector,conductingthe
20 businessandthereforeentitledtohispayriseandhis
21 bonusesandanythingelse.Youmakethepointat36
22 thatyoudon'tconsiderthattheperiodwhenMsBirdi
23 wasthesoledirectorcanhavesuchasimilaranalysis
24 puttoit.Isthatright?Doyouseethat?
25 A.Iamjustreadingthecontext.
191
1 Q.Okay.
2 A.Sorry,MrStuart,whatwasyourquestion?
3 Q.Paragraph36.Youmakethepointthatyoucan't,in
4 yourview,applythesamerulestoMsBirdi'speriodof
5 soledirectorshipthatyouareapplyingtoMrSingh's
6 periodofsoledirectorship.
7 A.(inaudible)forthebonuses.
8 Q.Salaryrisesandbonus.Yousayarejustifiedbecause
9 yousayheisnowthesoledirector.
10 A.It'sspecificallyaboutbonuses,isn'tit?
11 Q.Ithinkit'sundertheheading,"PayRiseandBonuses".
12 A.That'scorrect,becausethedistributionswereavailable
13 here,sowecanseetheperformance,whichiswhythe
14 bonuseswerepaidandratifiedthroughDartford
15 Visionplus.
16 Q.Hm‐mm.Youthengooninparagraph37:{C/10/125}
17 "ThereasonastowhyMrSinghhasbeenpaid
18 employeebonusesfromDartfordVisionplusandnot
19 dividendsfromDartfordisbecausehehasbeenrewarded
20 byhisemployer,DartfordVisionplus,forhisworkand
21 performanceasanemployeeinsuccessfullycompleting
22 theday‐to‐daymanagementofthestoreonhisown
23 sinceJanuary2010todate."
24 Doyouseethat?
25 A.That'scorrect.
192
1 Q.Whatyouaretheresayingisthatheisnotgetting
2 thesesumsbecauseofbeinganAdirectorof
3 DartfordSpecsavers‐‐
4 A.No,heisgettingrewardedbyhisemployer,Dartford
5 Visionplus.
6 Q.Doyouhaveanyevidencethatheactuallyspendsmore
7 timeemployedinthestorebyDartfordVisionplus?
8 A.Whenyousay"evidence",whatIknowisheisasole
9 directorinabusinesswherethereshouldbe
10 twodirectors.Thebusinessisdoingreallywell,the
11 dividendsaregoingup,andrewardingMrSinghforhis
12 endeavoursasanemployeefeelsanappropriatethingto
13 do.
14 Q.Butyouhavepreviouslysaidinyourstatementsthatthe
15 benefitsofmoreprofitsinthestore,etcetera,et
16 cetera,gototheAshareholdersthroughtheir
17 shareholding.
18 A.Correct.
19 Q.Notthroughsalaryrises.
20 A.Thisisnotaboutequalisation,thisisaboutrewarding
21 aindividualforhishardanddedicatedwork,increasing
22 theprofitabilityofthestoreand,bywayofpayinghim
23 abonusasanemployee,continuingtomotivatehimto
24 keepperformanceup.
25 Q.Hedoesn'tneedanymotivation,doeshe?Heisan
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1 Ashareholder;heisgetting50percentoftheprofits.
2 A.Ithinkhedoesneedmotivating.It'spartoftheway
3 thatSpecsaversoperatesintermsofmotivatingand
4 bonusingpeople.Andthisis‐‐
5 Q.Didyoumotivateorbonus‐‐
6 A.‐‐remember‐‐this,remember‐‐this,remember‐‐this
7 isnotforever.Assoonas,youknow,MrSinghisnot
8 theonlypartnerinthatstore,thisremunerationfor
9 himfromhisemployerwillcease.
10 Q.Allright.
11 Finally,canyouflicktotab18,tab18,yourlast
12 witnessstatement.{C/18/184}It'sonlydealswith
13 acouplemorepoints.Page184,undertheheading,
14 "SeanMcLaughlin'sCharges."
15 A.Sorry,I'mnotthere.
16 Q.Sorry,tab18.Doyouhaveit?
17 A.Yes.
18 Q.Youhavemadeathirdwitnessstatementwhichsortof
19 respondedto‐‐
20 A.Ihave,yes.
21 Q.‐‐anumberofmatterswhichwereinMsBirdi'sfourth
22 witnessstatement.Doyouremember?
23 A.Yes.
24 Q.Andfirstitemis,"SeanMcLaughlin'sCharges",andthat
25 goesonfromparagraph5toparagraph11?{C/18/184}Do
194
1 youseethat?
2 A.Yes.
3 Q.Nowwehavegotalltheactualdetailsofthefigures.
4 Myonlyquestiontoyouis:doyouactuallyhaveany
5 personalknowledgeofallthespecificfiguresof
6 MrMcLaughlin'scharges?
7 A.No.
8 Q.No.Allright.Overthepageon186,"SecurityCamera
9 Invoices"istheheading.Doyouseeit?{C/18/186}
10 A.Ido.
11 Q.Paragraphs12to15.Youdealwithanumberof
12 differentitemsofallegedsecuritycameracharges.
13 A.Correct.
14 Q.Especiallyat13(a),(b),(c),(d),(e).Samequestion:
15 doyoupersonallyhaveanyknowledgeaboutthesecameras
16 oraboutthechargesforthesecameras?
17 A.Notpersonally,no.
18 Q.No,allright,Iwon'taskyou.Overthepage,the
19 creditnoteitem.{C/18/187}Thisisthenew
20 explanationastohowthefiguresmightwork.Doyou
21 remember?
22 A.Idoremember,yes.
23 Q.Youwillknowthequestionthat'scoming:Didyou
24 personallyworkoutthisexplanationastohowthe
25 creditnoteworkswiththeotherinvoicesandsomehow‐‐
195
1 A.No,thisisinresponse,Ithink,tosomeprevious
2 correspondence,anditwasdiscoveredonfurther
3 investigationthatacreditnotehadbeenissued.
4 Q.Right,butdoyoupersonallyhaveanyknowledgeabout
5 thiscreditnoteoraboutthecircumstancesinwhichthe
6 figureswere‐‐
7 A.No.
8 Q.No?
9 A.No.
10 Q.Allright,fine.Andthegiftofthecompanycar.This
11 isMrPatel'scar.Doyourememberhegotit‐‐
12 A.Idoremember,yes.
13 Q.‐‐giftedtohim?AndthisisallaboutHMRevenueand
14 Customs,theP11Dcalculation,paragraph20ofyour
15 witnessstatement.{C/18/188}?
16 A.Yes.
17 Q.Atparagraph19youtalkaboutthere'sanumberofways
18 tovalueacar.Doyouseethat,paragraph19?
19 {C/18/188}
20 A.Ido.
21 Q.DoyouhaveanyknowledgeabouthowMrPatel'scarwas
22 actuallyanalysedordealtwithbywayofvaluationor
23 tax?
24 A.No,onlywhat'swrittenhere.
25 Q.Fine.ThenIwon'taskyouaboutit.
196
1 Andthenpage189,theliabilitytoHMRC.2 {C/18/189}Thisisthis£9,469figurethathisLordship3 askedyouaboutearlier.Doyouremember?4 A.Ido,yes.5 Q.IthinkatthetimeyoutoldhisLordshipthatyou6 didn'thaveaclearknowledgeyourselfpersonallyof7 quitehowthisworks,thisanalysisandthis£9,000.8 Doesthatremaintheposition.9 A.Itdoes,yes.
10 Q.Soitwouldn'treallyassistifIstartedaskingyou11 aboutthedetailofthisexplanation?12 A.Idon'tthinkitwould,no.13 Q.No?Allright.AndIdon'tthinkIneedtoaskyou14 aboutthelasttwoitemsanyway.15 Thelastparagraphofyourlaststatement,the16 salaryincreases.{C/18/191}Yousay:17 "...InotethatIauthorisedincreasesfrom3to18 13percent..."19 Thesearethestaffincreasesnow,notMrSingh?20 A.Yes.21 Q."...offiveoutofthe19employees...upon22 re‐readingthisparagraph,Ishouldliketoclarifythat23 thosefiveemployeeswerePatriceO'Brien...Fernandes24 ...Jita,DeniseKinsellaandSheilaO'Brien."25 Didyoupersonallyhaveanyinvolvementindeciding
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1 anythingaboutthese‐‐
2 A.Idid.
3 Q.‐‐staffsalaries‐‐
4 A.Idid.
5 Q.‐‐ordidyouleaveittoMrMcAlindonandMsSlark?
6 A.No,Iwentthroughthelistandthat'swhyonlyfiveof
7 the19‐‐thereisanothertwobutIactuallysoughtto
8 checkthevalidityoftheinformation,notbecause
9 Ididn'tdisbelieveit,butIwantedtomakesurewe
10 weremakingadecision,thatitwasbasedoncorrect
11 information.JillClarkhelpedmewiththatandthere
12 weretwopeoplethatgotpayrises.Onewas
13 anoptometrist,whowasbehindthemarketrate,andthe
14 otherwasaladywhowasatraineeDO,whobecameaDO
15 andIjustmadesurethatshewaspaidtherightsalary
16 fortherateofdoingthejob.
17 Q.Very,verylastquestion.Weareflickingbackto
18 oneissue.E2.CouldyoubeshownE2,page306‐24.
19 {E/44.2/306‐24}.Justkeepyourfingerinthereand
20 thenjustgobacktopage360‐1{E/44.1/360.1},sothat
21 wecanseethecontextofthis.
22 Acalculationhadbeendonetoseewhatseverance
23 dividendwouldhavebeenpayableuponMrPatel's
24 departure.
25 MRPOTTS:Sorry,butthat£1,288ismyfriend'sdocument
198
1 andIdon'tbelieveit'scontemporaneous.
2 MRSTUART:That'sright.Iwasn'tseekingtosayitwas.
3 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Idon'tthinkMrStuartmeanttosuggest
4 it.
5 MRPOTTS:No,I'msorry.
6 MRSTUART:No,absolutelynot.
7 MRJUSTICENUGEE:No,butitwasslightlyambiguous,the
8 wayyouexpressedit.
9 MRSTUART:I'msorry:acalculationhasrecentlybeen
10 done‐‐Idon'tknowhowrecently,butrecentlydone,
11 notdoneatthetime‐‐calculatingwhatmighthavebeen
12 theseverancedividendpayableuponMrPatel'sdeparture
13 inFebruary2007.Okay?
14 A.Yes.
15 Q.Anditstartswithafigure:
16 "Previousyear'sprofitbroughtforward:£128812."
17 Doyouseethat?
18 A.Ido.
19 Q.SothatwouldbetoSeptember2006.Andthenlossesfor
20 aperiod,thendistributableprofitsavailable,andthen
21 theretainedreserves,the40,000figure,whichyousay
22 shouldbe70,000.That'sright,isn'tit?
23 A.Correct.
24 Q.Soit'saseverancedividendof76,000butyouwould,at
25 least,sayyouwouldhavetodeduct30,000fromthat?
199
1 A.Correct.
2 Q.Idon'tneedtotakeyoutothedocumentifyouwill
3 acceptthat.Doyouaccepttheconceptofseverance
4 dividendsbeingpayablewhenoneofthepartnersleaves?
5 Isthatareasonablycommoncircumstance?
6 A.Whenyousay"severance"...
7 Q.Yes.SoanAshareholder,oneofthetwo‐‐
8 A.Imean,isthatthesameaswhateverdistributable
9 profitswereavailableatthetimethepersonwhowas
10 leavingwouldbeentitledtothem?
11 Q.Uptothatpoint,yes.
12 A.Yes.
13 Q.Andthenthemoneymightnotevenbeavailable;there
14 mightnotbecashinthebank?
15 A.Correct.
16 Q.Butatleastafigurewouldbecalculated,sothatthe
17 seller‐‐
18 A.Thatismyunderstanding,yes.
19 Q.Sothatisyourunderstandingofwhatcommonlyhappens?
20 A.Yes.
21 Q.Allright,Idon'tneedtoaskyouanymoreaboutit.
22 MyLord,thankyou.Idon'thaveanymore
23 questions.
24 MRJUSTICENUGEE:MrPotts,Iassumeyouhavesome‐‐
25 MRPOTTS:No,Iamveryshort.Ihavegotonequestion,my
200
1 Lord,Ithink.
2 Re‐examinationbyMRPOTTS
3 MRPOTTS:DoyouhavevolumeD2?
4 A.Yes.
5 Q.Youwereasked‐‐couldyouturntopage368,please,
6 {D/27/368}
7 A.Yes.
8 Q.YouwereaskedabouttheconsiderationofMrSingh's
9 positionasatSeptember2011,intermsofconsidering
10 hisremunerationandhissalaryandrequestforan
11 increase.
12 A.Correct.
13 Q.Andpage368showedthepositionasat
14 30September2010.Doyouseethat?368?
15 A.Yes.
16 Q.Infact,sorry,youwereshown365infact.{D/27/365}
17 A.Yes.
18 Q.Whichisasat30September2010,ayearearlier;
19 correct?
20 A.Yes.
21 Q.Youweren'tshown368,wereyou,intermsofthebottom
22 ofthepageinrelationtodividendpayments?
23 A.No.
24 Q.Andintermsofthecompany,wastheonlyfinancial
25 informationinrelationtothecompanythehistoric
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1 accountsfromayearearlier?
2 Whatfinancialinformationwasavailableinrelation
3 tothecompanyonanongoingbasis,apartfromthe
4 annualaccounts?
5 A.Therewouldhavebeenthebottomlinereportsthatwere
6 sentouttothestores.
7 Q.Andwhatdidthebottomlinepositionshow?
8 A.Itshowstheamountofmoneythat'savailablefor
9 distribution.
10 Q.Andwhat'stheperiodicdetailsastohowthoseare
11 produced?Howaretheyproduced?
12 A.Myunderstandingisthattheyareproducedonamonthly
13 basis.
14 Q.Okay.Couldyouturnforward?Youweren'tshown395,
15 whichistheannualconsolidatedaccountsbalancesheet
16 asat30September2011.{D/29/395}
17 A.Yes.
18 Q.Butyourevidenceisthattherewouldhavebeenbottom
19 linereportsforthemonthlyperiodsthereafter,andin
20 relationtothefinancialpositionofthecompanyas
21 atSeptember2011,whatwasyourunderstandingofthe
22 financialpositionofthecompanyatthattime?
23 A.Thatitwasveryhealthy.
24 Q.Thankyou.Ihavenofurtherquestions.
25 QuestionsbyTHEJUDGE
202
1 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyouverymuch.
2 MrDyson,Ihaveonequestion,whichisthatwhen
3 youwerebeingaskedbyMrStuartaboutwhetherMrSingh
4 wasbeinggiventhesharesverycheaply,yousaid:
5 "Justbecauseithasgot£1millionturnover,it
6 doesn'tmeanit'sgoingtoproduceaprofitandit
7 dependsonhowwellitworks."
8 Andyousaidsomethinglikeitwillonlypayout
9 50,000iftheprofitabilityisthere,andthatwillbe
10 downtothepartnershipworkingtogether.Doyou
11 rememberthatanswer?
12 A.Yes.
13 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
14 OneofthecomplaintsthatMsBirdihadinher
15 appeal,whichcametoyou,wasthatMrSinghhadbeen
16 imposedonheragainstherwill,andIjustwonderedhow
17 importantitwasthatthetwojointventurepartnersin
18 atwo‐partnerfirmgotonwelltogether.
19 A.Weselectourpartnersontheir‐‐firstofall,to
20 answeryourquestionabout(inaudible)otherway,butwe
21 obviouslyneedtounderstandtheirpreviousexperience
22 andwhetherthey'veworkedforusoranotheropticianor
23 anotherretailer.Theyhavetopassthestage1,which
24 doesthecheckintermsofpsychometrictesting;test
25 theircommercialacumen;andwehaveconfidencethatwe
203
1 aregivingabusinessorallowingsomeonetojoin2 abusinessthat'sgoingtoaddvalue.Andthat'sour3 primaryconcern.4 Ofcourse,makingsurethatpartnerscanwork5 together‐‐theydon'thavetolikeeachotherandwe6 havegotlotsandlotsofpartnershipswheretheydon't7 likeeachotherbuttheyarevery,verysuccessful.And8 soitisimportantthatwechoosetherightperson9 becauseoftheirskillsandexperienceandtheir
10 leadershipbecausetheyarethemostimportantthings,11 andhopefully,whenwedothat,theywillgeton,butwe12 don't‐‐wedon'ttryanddomatchmaking,ifIcan13 describeitthatway.14 Andit'swhatwehavedoneforaslongasIhave15 beenthereandprobablydonetoadifferentsetof16 standardspriortomearrivinginthecompany.17 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyou.18 HowcommonisitforaJVpartnertobeintroduced19 toatwo‐personbusinessagainsttheactiveopposition20 oftheexistingJVpartner?BecauseMsBirdiactually21 votedagainstMrSinghbeingintroducedintothe22 business,didn'tshe,attheboardmeeting?23 A.It'snotfrequent.Ithashappenedinthepast,but24 Icanthinkofacoupleofoccasions,butit'snot25 somethingthatnormallyhappens.It'snormally‐‐we
204
1 introduce‐‐becauseweintroducethepartnerbefore
2 theyactuallydosignup.Theyspendsometime
3 together.Thepartnerwhoisbuyingthesharesnormally
4 spendsadayinthestoreorevenlonger,dependingon
5 howthechemistryworks,andthenwethengoonto
6 completethesaleandthenappointthemasdirectors.
7 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyouverymuch.Idon'tknowif
8 eitherofyouwanttoaskanythingarisingoutofthat.
9 MRSTUART:No,myLord.
10 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyouverymuchforyourhelp,
11 MrDyson.
12 A.Thankyou.
13 MRPOTTS:CouldMrDysonbereleasedandfinallycatchhis
14 flight?
15 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.Ofcourse,yes.Ihopeyouhave
16 asafeflightbacktoAustralia.
17 A.Thankyou.
18 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Unlessthereisanythingelse,10.30
19 tomorrow.
20 MRPOTTS:MyLord,no.Ithinkit'sMrMcAlindon.My
21 Lord,thereisadocumentinrelationtosome
22 corrections.Ihavehandedittomyfriendtoday.I
23 can‐‐
24 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Correctionsto?
25 MRPOTTS:MrMcAlindon's‐‐
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205
1 MRJUSTICENUGEE:McAlindon'sstatement?
2 MRPOTTS:We'lldealwiththosebutIhaveagreedwithmy
3 friend,ratherthanmetryingto‐‐
4 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Doitorally.
5 MRPOTTS:‐‐orally,it'sbyapieceofpaper.Iwillhand
6 ittoyourLordship‐‐
7 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thatwouldbeverygrateful.
8 MRPOTTS:‐‐perhapstomorrowmorning‐‐perhaps.
9 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Yes.
10 MRPOTTS:Butmyfriendhasit.
11 MRJUSTICENUGEE:Thankyouverymuch.10.30tomorrow.
12 (4.30pm)
13 (Thecourtadjourneduntil10.30amthefollowingday)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
206
1 INDEX2 MRDEREKDYSON(continued)...........................33 Cross‐examinationbyMRSTUART(continued).......34 Re‐examinationbyMRPOTTS.....................2005 QuestionsbyTHEJUDGE.........................2016789
10111213141516171819202122232425
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A
able (6) 1:17 41:2557:22 82:25 127:9132:15
absence (1) 111:6absent (1) 111:22absolutely (12) 5:25
15:17 22:11 87:396:15 139:14143:15 164:6 168:4184:22 187:20198:6
accept (7) 35:20 126:7184:4 186:3,22199:3,3
acceptable (4) 124:21127:19 128:10,20
accepted (1) 59:14accommodation (3)
60:6 109:13 116:17accompanied (1)
21:23account (3) 43:22
67:11 106:7accountancy (1) 68:17accounted (1) 106:21accounting (1) 9:5accounts (12) 9:10
10:13 12:24 13:927:23 67:8 146:9158:22 160:18201:1,4,15
accrued (1) 13:10accurate (1) 142:5achieving (1) 48:5acknowledge (2)
33:13 138:25acknowledges (1)
145:16acquire (3) 40:7 94:11
95:14acquired (2) 38:11
40:6acquiring (3) 149:16
149:19 150:12acquisition (1) 41:7act (4) 21:24 162:21
179:1,11acted (3) 151:7,9,10acting (13) 36:1 58:16
69:21 114:18 115:1115:15 116:3,5,8,9121:11 141:21165:25
action (11) 19:1732:17,20 41:1390:3 132:21 133:7133:8,17 135:3151:4
actions (1) 26:18active (2) 36:12
203:19activities (7) 57:9,11
88:21 120:19133:13 159:11186:6
activity (7) 120:9,12122:19 152:16,18155:3,15
actual (9) 18:20 29:235:18 107:15 150:3150:6 170:14 190:4194:3
acumen (1) 202:25adamant (2) 4:6 15:17add (2) 9:9 203:2added (5) 10:4 114:9
115:7,17 116:12adding (1) 117:17additional (2) 111:2
173:15address (2) 101:9
178:13addressed (2) 170:20
176:4addressing (1) 90:13Adherence (1) 147:12adjourned (1) 205:13adjournment (1)
102:24admitting (1) 5:19adversarial (1) 173:17advice (10) 165:15
171:23 172:3,3,5172:20 174:23176:11,23,24
advise (1) 130:16afraid (1) 41:19afternoon (1) 84:17age (1) 11:1agenda (1) 65:23ago (1) 130:18agree (22) 3:6 32:16
63:12,18 73:2488:9 89:6 92:2094:20 96:15 100:21104:16,17 108:18109:10 155:7,7160:10 177:14,17186:12,18
agreed (26) 7:24,2521:23 34:17 43:7,859:4,7 60:14,2161:7,10 71:22 84:184:2 87:2 88:1 89:391:11 92:14,22143:24 184:10186:7 189:12 205:2
agreeing (2) 64:25107:24
agreement (31) 12:125:8,9 26:9 34:3,534:6,19 52:3,5,1052:13,15,18 55:1592:14,16,22 93:17124:3,8 125:17,18126:2 147:16154:17,18,21178:25 179:20180:7
Agreement/Deed (1)147:12
agrees (1) 150:22Ah (2) 117:4 164:2ahead (1) 72:18aid (1) 124:5airport (1) 62:25Alison (4) 21:2 71:12
158:5 180:23allegation (15) 104:18
104:19 119:11,14120:14 123:6,9,13123:14,17,18,19162:13 181:18186:13
allegations (17) 41:2264:18 121:23 122:2122:3,13,17,22,24153:25 154:2165:21 166:21167:6 186:5 187:19187:23
alleged (2) 59:20194:12
allegedly (1) 26:22allocated (1) 2:16allow (1) 157:7allowances (1) 60:7allowed (1) 111:25allowing (1) 203:1
alongside (1) 62:4amber (2) 74:19,24ambiguous (1) 198:7amend (2) 16:3 113:20amended (1) 42:14amendments (2)
113:7,24amount (10) 54:15
89:19 106:4 143:9144:3,6 176:18181:6 183:7 201:8
analysed (1) 195:22analysing (1) 157:18analysis (4) 43:7,8
190:23 196:7Anderson (2) 21:2
71:12and/or (4) 5:20 29:1
93:7 131:13annotate (1) 116:1annotated (2) 113:19
141:12annotations (8)
170:19,22 171:7,14171:15 172:8173:11 176:20
annual (6) 156:22157:7 159:20 160:4201:4,15
annualised (1) 10:13annum (5) 53:20 54:3
54:19,25 55:2answer (18) 19:18
25:1 26:16 29:2545:18 47:19 59:1765:8 102:2,3117:18 139:13146:14 164:19175:18 177:3202:11,20
answered (2) 98:13165:1
answers (2) 40:10174:14
anticipated (2) 149:1150:9
anybody (3) 14:2240:23 165:14
anyway (5) 50:1280:17 86:5 101:7196:14
apart (3) 21:10 108:24201:3
appeal (40) 161:14,15161:20 163:13,16163:18,23 164:3,4164:12 165:12,17166:15,25 167:7,19168:2,18,24 170:1170:16 171:2,3,15172:8,16 173:6,9174:16,19 175:5177:6 178:8 179:14179:15 180:11,15180:16,19 202:15
appealing (1) 103:15appear (10) 12:18
13:15 38:9 85:2089:19 93:15 101:22163:8 175:5 184:2
appearing (1) 163:1appears (9) 13:13
32:10 68:11 89:6,9100:21 132:17153:24 178:23
applied (11) 46:449:24 78:13 86:886:19 87:11,13,24106:25 157:13,19
applies (3) 87:2 127:1
156:25apply (7) 46:3,19
78:18 81:19 125:18157:6 191:4
applying (4) 54:22138:25 158:16191:5
appoint (4) 55:1156:15 165:9 204:6
appointed (11) 21:24129:16 139:23,24162:18,24 163:2165:6,8,11 167:12
appointing (3) 22:1222:13 154:15
appointment (5) 55:22129:22 130:20131:9 166:2
appreciate (1) 65:19appreciates (1) 64:15appropriate (18) 2:1
32:4 39:11 46:1,1763:3,13,16 67:1698:21 125:8 127:11143:16 158:17165:17 166:24172:10 192:12
appropriately (1)91:17
approval (11) 27:2429:16 32:20,24,25124:9,23 125:2,9126:20 128:12
approve (14) 42:744:10 125:3 127:5127:6,7,7 128:12128:13,15,19,21131:9 166:8
approved (10) 32:544:11 45:5 66:13105:10 120:8,15124:20 127:18128:9
approving (2) 129:22144:20
April (4) 18:23 22:2323:2 65:11
area (3) 80:20 81:18179:14
argument (10) 3:15171:17,19,21 177:9178:6,7,19 179:21190:17
arguments (4) 3:10177:4,5,5
arisen (1) 105:19arises (3) 26:24
111:19 127:13arising (2) 171:1 204:8arose (2) 27:1 174:19arrange (1) 50:17arrangement (1) 77:10arrangements (2)
88:22 95:18arriving (1) 203:16Artley (1) 96:23aside (1) 175:16asked (31) 6:22 9:23
10:17,20 17:2431:21 38:13 39:255:14 64:2 70:1570:17,19 77:799:20 100:19101:19,24 113:6117:19 127:11136:1 144:13154:23 158:5 169:4169:4 196:3 200:5200:8 202:3
asking (21) 15:2,13
35:17 55:9 74:23118:1 138:24 158:4160:25 171:17,19171:20,24 172:7,25173:2,4 174:3,9176:25 196:10
asks (3) 29:13,15150:19
aspect (3) 183:4,20187:21
aspects (1) 166:14assert (2) 107:10
112:6asserted (3) 4:18
171:12 172:22assertion (2) 177:14
177:17asserts (2) 185:12,13assessing (2) 96:7
130:23assessment (5) 77:23
77:25 81:16 82:385:6
assist (1) 196:10assistance (2) 75:18
161:4assistant (2) 6:24
150:7associated (2) 112:13
133:13assume (2) 21:3
199:24assuming (4) 8:16
12:11 19:16 81:7assumption (3) 2:7
29:5 81:6attached (1) 113:14attachment (4) 27:22
32:12,13 45:11attachments (1) 28:1attend (2) 60:3 180:14attendance (3) 115:5
115:11,16attending (1) 163:21attention (1) 144:7attitude (4) 186:8,16
186:18,19attract (3) 80:5 81:22
85:17attributable (2) 13:3
13:16attributed (1) 62:19audit (4) 19:12 72:6
72:17,18auditing (1) 72:4audits (1) 72:7August (11) 75:12,17
76:24 83:19 84:3,484:13,17 85:2196:10 159:3
Australia (1) 204:16authorisation (3)
50:18 75:18 76:5authorise (3) 26:10
32:5 76:16authorised (5) 21:2
76:10,18,22 196:17authorising (2) 46:9
66:19authority (3) 24:21,23
25:2avail (2) 59:19,20availability (2) 1:20
80:19available (19) 1:15
23:8 40:14 45:758:19 61:13 71:979:8 80:3 85:15115:6 149:6,8191:12 198:20
199:9,13 201:2,8average (6) 10:5 11:2
12:11 47:15 116:15150:13
aware (20) 27:13,1437:15 39:9,1045:17,18 65:3,1383:8 90:16 91:1129:15 136:12146:12 153:7,9,10153:22 173:21
awful (1) 61:5
B
b (24) 23:7 24:24 25:225:3,3,6,12,1633:15,18,20,24,2558:14 86:15 93:8111:4,20 112:1,7158:6 162:24 163:2194:14
back (35) 1:12 9:922:7 32:23 51:356:18 60:15 87:22100:1 112:17124:18 126:8,19128:22 137:10146:10 153:13154:3 162:19,20163:15 164:8,9,12165:24 171:5172:16,19,23,25173:2 189:11197:17,20 204:16
backdated (1) 160:23background (1) 173:16bad (8) 47:23 48:9
64:14,16,17,2465:5 74:13
bag (1) 74:17balance (1) 201:15balanced (1) 69:2ball (1) 31:25bank (1) 199:14bargain (1) 138:9Barnes (2) 20:6,18base (2) 61:18 139:13based (19) 8:16,24
16:21 17:2 28:947:4 74:25 82:399:19 127:8 136:5138:10 142:4,6148:24 159:18178:7 179:25197:10
basic (19) 9:15 142:21142:23 143:1,2,6,6143:7,8,13,14,22143:25 144:2,9,13144:22 145:1149:14
basically (1) 161:20basis (22) 47:5 57:17
87:16,16 96:9,9112:6,7 139:15,15140:12 156:21157:7 159:20 160:3160:21 167:6168:18 171:21176:7 201:3,13
bearing (3) 48:2179:23 142:15
beginning (4) 52:1873:2 77:7 138:21
begins (1) 165:21behalf (4) 35:8,11
76:14 182:2behaviour (1) 20:23believe (11) 54:12
60:22 118:20
120:11,13 130:14140:23 153:22154:12 155:18198:1
believed (5) 67:14137:14 138:8 144:1183:15
believes (1) 93:16benefit (2) 3:14 80:25benefits (3) 143:10,20
192:15best (11) 58:16,19
99:16 131:7 137:14151:7,9,10,12152:12 187:4
better (2) 44:1 52:14Bexleyheath (6) 78:10
80:21 82:16,2483:6,8
beyond (1) 157:6biased (1) 166:12big (4) 54:14 65:21
182:20,20Bina (1) 62:23Birdi (106) 1:16 18:23
19:1,5 20:9,1322:23 23:15,1724:15 25:20 29:934:24 36:3 39:1540:2,7,12,17 46:2,550:1 51:5 54:8 56:957:2,22 58:1 64:1765:6,7,12 71:9 74:776:25 77:3,6 78:580:23 81:3,7 82:1,489:24 90:1 92:1593:2,5,18,19 96:25103:13 108:21109:1 110:11 112:2113:14 114:10122:10,21 125:21126:12 147:16150:5 152:14153:12,14 154:2,3154:9,16 155:9157:9,13 158:12162:10 163:20,21164:9 165:19168:19,24 170:16173:17 176:5179:13 180:14181:19 182:4,14184:3,6 185:12,20185:24 186:9,17,25187:1,4 189:12,17190:17,22 202:14203:20
Birdi's (22) 1:9 38:1741:7 64:18 80:1086:12 93:20 94:1296:23 98:17 152:20153:11 155:17161:5 166:22 167:7168:24 177:10178:21 179:19191:4 193:21
bit (9) 79:10 81:1582:1 116:6,25148:14,15 160:7168:25
bitch (1) 186:20bits (1) 6:6blended (4) 60:2,8,13
87:22board (36) 25:14 26:9
26:13,19 27:2428:19,25 29:1,7,929:16,16 30:1232:24,25 33:945:23 59:5,7,9,13
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59:14 61:7 87:2288:2 91:12 111:23120:20 165:6167:13 168:23,23179:6 184:6,9203:22
body (1) 125:11bona (1) 8:17bonus (37) 29:17
41:25 42:1,2,5,7,1442:17,17,20,2143:1,10,15 44:4,6,744:10,11,16,1945:2,6,16 46:2,1846:25,25 47:4,6,748:25 156:6,6191:8 192:23 193:5
bonuses (21) 9:1127:6,8 29:4 47:1447:21 48:14,1751:19 142:23143:10,16,18,20190:11,21 191:7,10191:11,14,18
bonusing (1) 193:4book (2) 131:24,24borne (1) 98:15borrowing (1) 8:19bottom (17) 1:8 6:12
6:18 7:21 19:2328:7 37:2,4 75:3,8116:12 141:19153:17 200:21201:5,7,18
bought (3) 93:7137:18 151:3
branch (1) 77:21breaches (2) 26:21
104:6break (4) 49:7,9
155:23,25breakdown (1) 110:12bring (1) 166:2bringing (2) 38:19
142:12brings (1) 179:6broken (3) 48:2 120:7
185:24Bromley (1) 80:21brother (3) 152:25
153:8,8brought (5) 39:22
140:7 144:7 178:12198:16
BT (1) 136:6budget (7) 59:3 68:4
68:12,21,24 69:2,6builders (1) 105:11bullying/intimidatio...
19:2bundle (17) 3:22,24
4:9 6:11,19 41:2449:3 50:4 84:196:18 112:20 132:4141:14 158:18161:21 178:18188:4
bundles (2) 65:17103:2
burden (1) 161:8business (90) 8:2 9:2
12:3 14:22 15:1116:23 25:17 32:2134:10 37:9 38:139:23,24 40:2147:2 48:8 50:2552:22 53:9 55:1756:2,6,10,14,2458:16,17 61:1471:7 75:21 81:1
88:18 94:13 97:397:13,18,23,2598:3,23 112:10115:13 118:6,8,13118:17 121:1,24122:14 123:1,10131:2 134:16135:18 136:7,21139:18 146:17147:25 148:22149:22 151:7,9,12152:8,9,12 158:11181:19,23 182:6,14182:16,20 183:2,3184:20 185:2,6,16185:18 187:9,12190:20 192:9,10203:1,2,19,22
businesses (1) 74:21buy (1) 5:17buyer (2) 80:5 145:16buyers (1) 38:5Buyer's (1) 145:7buying (10) 4:16 11:7
15:19 37:14 82:1783:6 93:9 148:14148:15 204:3
buys (1) 139:23B1 (1) 103:3
C
c (3) 3:23 188:4194:14
calamitous (1) 159:16calculated (2) 48:2
199:16calculating (1) 198:11calculation (14) 12:8
12:15,19,20 13:1314:2,9,15 43:1792:2 137:15 195:14197:22 198:9
call (5) 7:2 22:16 26:9110:15 135:25
called (3) 26:13 65:23113:2
Calling (1) 186:20camera (3) 108:24
194:8,12cameras (5) 108:25
134:8,20 194:15,16cancellation (1) 54:8cancelled (1) 163:21candidate (1) 140:24candidates (2) 137:13
140:15canvass (1) 46:17cap (3) 157:4,4 159:22capacity (5) 28:22
35:8 86:13 171:15190:19
capital (2) 12:20 51:21car (9) 63:1 188:16
189:17,19,20195:10,11,18,21
card (1) 188:13Carol (8) 29:6 31:21
32:1 55:23 64:1469:17 71:15 117:12
Carol's (1) 32:16carried (4) 19:11
50:23 96:1 186:24carries (1) 92:10carry (11) 17:22,24
21:19 24:24 25:725:16 56:10,1577:1 112:9 140:8
carrying (6) 5:10 24:2024:21 52:1 57:13182:10
case (16) 2:18 3:6 7:411:12 14:20 19:1840:1 47:10 54:2118:10 126:15127:22,25 146:9150:25 185:12
cases (1) 184:23cash (2) 72:9 199:14cashflow (1) 145:19casting (1) 26:20catch (3) 15:13 73:3
204:13Catherine (2) 113:2,3caught (2) 84:20 85:25cause (3) 2:23 123:17
180:5caused (3) 122:24
176:13 185:25cc'ed (4) 50:7 68:5,15
68:20CDG (1) 113:20cease (4) 66:6 95:13
95:16 193:9cent (44) 9:3 11:11,12
13:8,12,17,1843:13,14 44:15,1644:24 47:3,3,1275:4,7,7 79:8 80:385:15 94:18 95:1295:14 96:13 97:497:14 143:15 145:6149:3,18 156:23,25157:8,19 159:17,18159:21 160:4,20168:7 183:16 193:1196:18
central (1) 166:15centre (1) 69:4certain (2) 42:4
169:25certainly (4) 18:18
81:5 151:24 183:11cetera (25) 7:11 50:2
54:9,9 70:12 72:1272:12 85:18,18104:7 105:21 110:5110:8 132:1 139:4144:15 149:23150:13 162:13164:14,23 181:8,8192:15,16
chain (1) 95:2chairman (2) 26:20
69:17challenge (1) 48:3chance (3) 8:14 48:4
142:17change (3) 42:21
46:18 49:2changed (2) 115:22
116:8changing (1) 114:13chap (1) 140:15characters (2) 7:24 8:1charge (44) 46:24
48:21 49:24 51:2351:25 52:1 58:759:3,4 61:20,2562:23 63:16 72:2175:25 83:14 87:1787:21 88:3 91:1291:13,15,25 92:792:11 94:4 97:2598:11 101:12 102:4107:19 108:5 109:8109:24 110:4 112:4112:13,19 114:10116:3,15,20,23117:9
charged (20) 44:14
49:16 55:21 57:1461:6 89:7 90:2291:17,22 92:5100:9 101:4 102:11107:10 108:1,12,19111:7 115:8 172:2
charges (29) 49:2561:9 62:15,17 86:786:19 87:4,6,11,1388:9 89:7,11,1391:8,11 100:22108:4,13 109:4113:15 118:21138:14 165:25193:14,24 194:6,12194:16
charging (20) 61:1789:19 90:15,2592:10,13 93:14,1694:3,7,7 95:18107:17,18 108:2,15109:6,7 117:1118:21
chat (1) 7:3cheaply (1) 202:4check (2) 197:8 202:24checked (2) 1:16
113:16checking (2) 130:22
136:19chemistry (1) 204:5chimes (1) 11:4choice (1) 18:3choose (2) 58:10
203:8chose (3) 17:16
164:25 165:4chosen (2) 163:23
164:18chunk (3) 5:5 12:9
14:6circle (1) 132:20circumstance (2)
185:19 199:5circumstances (4)
111:22 177:18178:12 195:5
clarification (1) 171:20clarify (4) 35:21 84:6
174:2 196:22clarity (5) 38:24 114:8
114:14 117:17173:24
Clark (18) 20:20,2521:1 80:1 81:14110:12,14,16112:24 134:11,16134:20 162:5163:14 181:13183:1,5 197:11
Clark's (5) 110:7 114:4164:5 168:22180:13
clause (22) 124:3,5,7124:11,12,17,19,25125:25 126:1127:13,17,20 128:4177:10,19,19 178:4178:17,22 179:22180:6
clear (7) 3:8 5:14 15:122:12 36:20 87:14196:6
clearer (1) 114:11clearly (11) 76:21
79:12,17,18 94:10110:16 116:11119:24 120:19,20158:7
closing (3) 2:5,10,21
code (2) 74:25 77:19coffin (1) 167:14coincidentally (1)
15:12Collar (2) 75:15 76:3collectively (1) 106:3combined (1) 117:9come (26) 1:12 2:20
29:20,22 30:356:18 66:16 68:275:13,15 76:6,1976:21 88:17 99:4124:18 131:5 141:6163:15 169:12174:9 176:25 177:2185:15,15 187:7
comes (6) 25:2 29:1429:25 42:2 167:5175:3
coming (6) 23:1232:23 67:15 110:17176:17 194:23
commence (2) 95:17160:5
commenced (4)173:18 186:1,3,4
comment (10) 4:765:1,5 77:2 78:785:5 115:25 151:13161:17 182:11
commenting (1)167:17
comments (4) 21:2363:19 74:8 114:14
commercial (1) 202:25commit (2) 179:1,11commitment (3)
156:16 157:1159:25
commitments (1) 66:8committed (1) 26:22common (2) 199:5
203:18commonly (1) 199:19communicated (1)
42:13communicating (2)
69:24 75:24communication (1)
42:12communications (4)
172:16,17,19,24companies (2) 29:10
165:16company (44) 12:24
14:24 17:6,7 32:2534:4,7,11 35:1845:24 52:23 53:1055:18,19,20,2156:3 57:24 107:12110:3 111:5 112:1119:21 122:25139:5 146:6 148:12148:16 151:11165:6,8 172:1,2178:24 179:7,12188:16 195:10200:24,25 201:3,20201:22 203:16
compare (1) 44:20compared (1) 48:19comparison (1) 82:9complained (2) 18:24
19:1complains (1) 122:10complaint (2) 19:24
21:13complaints (4) 20:4,16
167:7 202:14complete (7) 2:15 42:5
42:7 72:12 96:2115:2 204:6
completed (9) 23:2141:1 54:7 79:1288:15 93:1,19 96:3102:18
completely (3) 42:18142:5 185:23
completing (1) 191:21comply (1) 127:4composite (3) 144:25
145:2 147:6compromise (6) 92:13
92:15,16,21 93:17187:2
concept (2) 131:11199:3
concern (1) 203:3concerned (3) 2:22
116:21 166:21concluded (3) 79:9
80:4 85:16conclusion (5) 80:18
181:11,16 185:15187:8
conclusions (1) 169:25condone (1) 63:20conduct (8) 19:25 74:6
98:17 119:6 120:4120:14 179:5 184:7
conducted (3) 16:917:12 161:15
conducting (6) 24:831:9 77:24 110:14153:24 190:19
confidence (1) 202:25confirm (1) 62:19confirmed (1) 172:14confused (1) 25:24conjunction (2) 129:7
129:8connection (2) 85:7
93:16conservatively (1)
81:17consider (14) 15:19
46:5,16 48:9 63:16144:22 153:20158:6 159:21 160:1160:21 174:16180:10 190:22
considerable (1)176:18
consideration (3)158:8 175:5 200:8
considered (11) 19:1838:13 64:19 131:17155:17 156:22159:24 160:3 173:6181:10 185:22
considering (7) 42:10131:14 154:2160:15,16 174:16200:9
consistent (2) 80:2285:5
consolidated (2)158:22 201:15
conspiracy (1) 151:5consult (2) 169:1
175:1Consultancy (1) 50:13consultant (5) 56:9,10
56:13 109:18133:19
consultation (3) 33:636:15,18
consulted (2) 168:14169:8
contact (4) 69:7 70:18
83:11 102:12contacted (1) 17:24contemporaneous (1)
198:1content (1) 174:4contents (1) 174:11context (8) 19:8 73:11
99:4 111:13 118:19118:20 190:25197:21
contingency (1) 82:15Contingent (1) 145:15continue (7) 21:16,19
33:7 58:20 92:1392:21 174:5
continued (4) 3:18,19206:2,3
continuing (3) 26:138:18 192:23
contract (9) 104:7106:9 144:2 177:11178:14,16,22179:16,17
contracts (1) 119:13Contrary (1) 177:23control (5) 23:3 60:19
78:2 88:13,17controlling (3) 24:7
129:13 149:22convened (2) 25:13
26:9conversation (5) 22:17
35:7 86:1,3 95:24conversations (6)
65:10,16 131:25141:1 170:7,8
convicted (1) 179:10copied (2) 76:7,8copies (1) 37:19copy (5) 6:3 113:20
114:12 134:18180:22
copying (1) 71:12core (2) 73:17,20corner (1) 6:13correct (106) 5:22 6:1
8:4 11:6 13:2015:22 17:11,1518:6 19:7,13 20:222:18 23:1 28:2128:24 30:9,13 32:932:19,22 33:1135:22,25 36:237:10,21 40:846:15 51:6,8,2253:22 58:3,5 59:859:10 62:8 66:1267:19 71:1,21 72:674:1 75:16 76:485:11 91:16 94:5103:22 104:10,12105:2 108:20,23109:6 111:21 112:5114:2 115:10,14117:6 122:23123:15,20 124:10124:22 125:1 126:5126:14 128:3,11130:6 131:10140:10 141:24143:21 148:8149:15 159:9162:22,25 163:4,17164:11 165:22167:21 173:7,10,13174:17,20 175:6176:6 177:16 183:6191:12,25 192:18194:13 197:10198:23 199:1,15
209November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
200:12,19corrected (1) 114:8corrections (2) 204:22
204:24correctly (3) 69:6
96:11 157:24correspondence (7)
39:7 65:14 69:471:14 76:20 90:7195:2
cost (19) 47:1 49:1949:23 52:4 56:2358:11 60:8,9,1362:24 69:4 107:10107:11,16,25 108:1108:3 109:15 111:2
costing (1) 48:23costs (42) 49:16,25
52:7 55:20 60:3,961:24 62:1,1998:14 100:8,10101:3,20,22 102:10106:25 107:3,4,4,8107:20,21 109:20109:24 111:11,16112:12,14,17,19,23115:9,12 116:16118:10 122:8138:16 149:22150:7,8 165:25
counsel's (1) 146:14counter‐allegation (1)
162:13counter‐argument (1)
177:13country (1) 157:1couple (6) 29:24 100:6
100:25 131:19193:13 203:24
course (9) 2:5 9:1041:5 70:23 106:15148:20 183:20203:4 204:15
court (2) 39:16 205:13covenants (1) 127:2cover (35) 23:12 49:15
49:17,19,22 54:454:12,15,16 55:7,855:11 56:1 57:758:15 70:24 71:380:22 81:18 89:292:12 98:6,8107:21,22 108:12111:5,17 117:11118:22 119:4 122:9136:6 138:15,16
covered (2) 71:8 72:7covering (1) 55:7covers (4) 107:15
115:8 116:16,20create (1) 40:1created (1) 183:12credentials (2) 105:12
130:22credit (5) 188:13
194:19,25 195:3,5criminal (1) 179:10Cristina (5) 7:8 33:2
96:22 153:13 154:4criteria (2) 78:5 79:1cross (1) 35:4crossed (1) 141:11cross‐examination (5)
3:19 73:2 97:1162:11 206:3
cross‐examined (1)152:21
current (4) 12:1119:15 78:9 136:5
currently (7) 38:25
84:24 85:3 89:1790:15,25 144:14
customers (1) 73:23Customs (1) 195:14cut (1) 160:13C/10/119 (1) 188:6C/10/122 (1) 189:1C/10/123 (1) 189:4C/10/124 (1) 190:8C/10/125 (1) 191:16C/18/184 (2) 193:12
193:25C/18/186 (1) 194:9C/18/187 (1) 194:19C/18/188 (2) 195:15
195:19C/18/189 (1) 196:2C/18/191 (1) 196:16C/9/103 (5) 16:7 22:9
49:14 103:24104:24
C/9/105 (2) 106:23110:11
C/9/107 (1) 110:24C/9/108 (2) 117:24
119:2C/9/109 (1) 121:21C/9/110 (1) 123:25C/9/111 (1) 128:23C/9/112 (3) 140:6
141:7 151:19C/9/113 (2) 152:13
153:18C/9/114 (2) 156:5
160:14C/9/115 (3) 156:15
159:23 162:5C/9/116 (3) 161:17
167:18 169:21C/9/117 (3) 180:9
181:17 184:5C/9/118 (1) 184:18
D
d (1) 194:14daily (8) 57:17 114:9
114:16,21 115:8116:3,15 121:16
Dame (2) 99:9 163:3Dartford (108) 7:2
8:10,22 10:1119:10,16 28:2329:1,1,8,8 33:7,1033:13,19 34:15,1734:23 35:1,2,9,1235:23 36:9 37:1338:6 40:24 49:1649:18 50:13,2351:4 58:13 62:1965:12 66:2,7 69:2270:7 71:3,7 75:1375:19 77:11,19,2080:15 81:20 82:984:14,18,20 89:1790:15,25 98:23100:7,18,23 101:1101:12 102:9111:23,24 112:10112:12,19,23113:15 115:18,24115:24 118:6,8,22121:23 122:13124:9 129:14,16132:19 133:7,8134:7,25 135:2,22135:23,24 140:7141:22 151:13154:14 155:11156:21 158:23160:2 165:12 172:2
181:19 183:8191:14,18,19,20192:3,4,7
Dartford's (1) 97:17data (2) 83:23 84:7date (5) 40:11 78:5
84:5 132:15 191:23dated (7) 6:18 7:20
15:8 83:21,23 84:284:13
David (10) 112:24113:5 114:12 116:6117:15 134:11,16134:20 168:22181:13
Dawn (3) 163:15164:7 168:22
day (77) 1:18 2:12,132:14,14,21,23 4:16:9 12:4 15:12,1420:6,9,12,18 32:2132:21 34:10,1042:15 43:11 44:144:13,14,15,18,2244:23 47:14,18,2247:24 48:1,3,4,750:24,24 52:22,2253:9,9,21 55:159:13 60:7,15,1660:17,20,21 61:2,361:4 65:23 72:5,1472:14,19 77:783:19,20 87:1490:11,16,25 92:792:10 108:1 115:12115:13 131:24136:18 138:22204:4 205:13
days (14) 47:11,13,2248:11 53:23,23,2488:10 115:11,15161:9,9 162:12184:7
day‐to‐day (42) 22:1923:3,13 25:10,1226:11 27:7 35:2,1136:7,12 46:8,2448:22 51:11,12,1651:18 52:1,4,2553:15,16 55:17,1855:20,24,25 56:2,656:8,11,14,16,1956:21 57:8,1298:14 112:15,16191:22
Day7/101:4 (1) 5:2Day7/102:10 (1) 5:6Day7/102:3 (1) 5:4Day7/103:22 (1) 5:8Day7/104:1 (1) 5:10Day7/99:13 (2) 4:12
4:24DC (1) 113:20DD (2) 89:14,15deal (20) 7:4 41:25
49:14 66:18 124:2144:24,25 146:23146:23 147:1,6,10148:11 152:13168:18 188:3,9,12194:11 205:2
dealing (15) 16:8 42:162:14,16 64:1668:1 75:23 106:24115:21 133:12161:4 167:6 179:25180:1,2
deals (2) 68:2 193:12dealt (13) 40:22 67:17
117:20 121:16
123:21 129:6176:20 181:12188:8,14,21 190:14195:22
debate (1) 34:2December (2) 7:20
163:13decide (4) 6:5,9 94:14
96:3decided (6) 21:18
39:11 76:24 136:20145:5 160:7
decider (1) 171:15deciding (2) 78:18
196:25decision (48) 17:20
18:14 21:6 22:339:8,8 41:6 45:751:17 56:14,16,1957:23 58:1,14,2059:16,20,23 65:2477:3,5 79:13,17,2199:22,23,24 103:15124:8 131:18 137:7138:7 140:12,13144:5,18 160:9161:25 167:13,25169:3 170:2 172:7173:8,9 176:17197:10
decisions (19) 33:835:11 51:11 67:4,567:6,9 76:14 79:1979:23 82:3 99:3,799:19 151:8 163:19164:13 180:13182:8
decision‐making (8)17:14,18 45:2070:20 142:9 153:23173:12 175:21
dedicated (1) 192:21deduct (2) 9:14 198:25deducted (2) 13:22,24deed (1) 127:2deem (1) 98:21deemed (1) 13:24default (1) 152:5definitely (1) 51:16del (9) 12:1 33:2 35:7
39:18 96:22 99:21152:22 153:13154:4
delegate (3) 34:9,2053:7
delegated (1) 52:19delegating (1) 58:8delegation (1) 53:11delivering (1) 149:23Denise (1) 196:24department (35) 4:17
5:20 9:2 19:1236:25 37:6,22,2438:2 58:22,2460:17 67:16 68:1771:24 72:3 80:1481:12,12,13 88:1190:18,19 91:1496:6 98:4 108:7109:4,5 136:21167:20 168:5 172:4175:20 183:21
departments (5) 39:583:4 166:20 183:19184:1
department's (4) 12:368:4,12 72:13
departure (5) 97:3,797:13 197:24198:12
depend (1) 67:6depending (4) 11:20
47:9 88:21 204:4depends (1) 202:7dept (1) 90:17Derek (21) 3:18 7:2,12
30:15,22 64:7,1284:20 90:12 95:595:11 100:5 101:10113:6,10,13,21132:11 133:5134:11 206:2
Dereks (1) 95:8derive (1) 15:3deriving (2) 15:4,4describe (4) 49:15
97:16 187:15203:13
described (7) 9:22,2410:8 34:21 45:5125:17 126:1
deserve (3) 185:7,18185:20
desire (5) 181:18184:19,23 185:1,5
detail (7) 3:7 114:3153:19 155:4 156:8167:17 196:11
detailed (2) 110:12183:7
details (3) 145:7 194:3201:10
development (2)109:18 133:19
diary (1) 131:25dictate (1) 168:10difference (5) 15:3
16:19 42:16 108:15108:17
different (10) 12:2134:6,12 42:18,2072:16,22 120:17194:12 203:15
differently (1) 104:8difficult (2) 140:1
187:16difficulties (1) 80:22digital (2) 134:8,20direct (1) 89:8directly (9) 81:13,13
88:10 182:21,23,23182:25 183:3,24
director (76) 16:1421:5 23:16,20 24:624:7,8 25:3 29:1033:7,10,14 35:8,935:17 36:7,9,1339:22,23 46:748:22 50:25 53:1653:16 56:13 57:1,257:6,19 58:7 67:569:22,24 78:480:25 82:12 89:25115:15 116:4,5,9,9118:10 124:13125:15,16 126:24127:15 128:7129:13,16 139:24140:22 142:1,22145:9 146:18 154:7154:15 158:10162:19,21 163:2,24164:21 165:8,10,25173:6 186:6 190:19190:23 191:9 192:2192:9
directors (45) 9:912:23 23:8 25:1132:20 33:17,18,1833:19,22,25,25
34:9,11,12,13,1434:14,22,23,2535:1,21,23,23 36:151:4,4 52:23,2453:7,10,12 111:6114:18,19 115:1,2118:9 159:20162:23,24 165:16192:10 204:6
directorship (2) 191:5191:6
disagree (2) 150:25151:2
disbelieve (1) 197:9disciplinary (37) 16:9
17:12,21,25 18:718:11 19:17,1922:9 41:1,8,13,1550:2 54:6 64:20,2179:15 88:15 89:190:3 93:1,3,18 96:498:18 99:14,24101:16 102:5,17103:13 107:4138:23 163:14167:1 187:25
disciplined (3) 104:15104:18,21
disclosed (2) 6:14,16disclosure (1) 7:17discount (1) 150:18discovered (1) 195:2discuss (7) 15:14
32:17 45:23 86:787:7,10 139:19
discussed (9) 19:439:10 83:15 84:1489:13,21,23,24167:19
discussing (6) 70:16100:18 129:22,25130:8 131:13
discussion (10) 87:4,596:10 133:6,24142:13 165:14,15172:9,11
discussions (6) 100:11100:15,24 101:25121:9 136:11
dishonest (7) 119:6,18120:4 121:3 152:15152:18 155:15
dishonesty (7) 119:7119:11,12,14120:18 123:5179:11
dismiss (1) 178:2dismissal (7) 53:18
54:23 55:4 106:20171:3 177:18 178:5
dismissed (6) 57:2104:25 105:4 106:6177:21 179:24
dispenser (9) 125:15125:19,21 126:6,12126:15,17,23,24
dispensing (3) 125:16125:24 126:25
dispose (3) 124:15127:15 128:7
dispute (5) 3:13,1484:7 171:1,2
disputed (2) 83:24,25disrepute (1) 179:7disruption (1) 39:21distributable (2)
198:20 199:8distribution (4) 149:7
149:8,11 201:9distributions (6) 8:18
142:18,23 143:17143:18 191:12
divide (1) 43:25divided (1) 10:5dividend (16) 8:10,19
8:22 12:8,16,1913:25 14:1,2 189:3189:11,13 197:23198:12,24 200:22
dividends (5) 142:17158:11 191:19192:11 199:4
dividing (2) 43:20,21division (1) 43:24document (40) 6:2,14
6:16 7:16 14:1315:3,4,8 16:2 44:873:6,10 77:14,1477:17 78:22 82:2183:21 85:12 121:4121:9,19 136:23154:22,25 155:1169:5,12 170:25173:24 174:10,11176:8,8,10 177:1183:17 197:25199:2 204:21
documentary (3)174:6 176:4 182:5
documentation (4)157:14 168:25170:14 174:25
documents (18) 7:1818:20 22:15 45:696:5 104:3,4106:11 121:17131:19 152:22170:16 171:24178:10 183:12,13189:25,25
doing (40) 18:4,7 23:523:6 25:22 29:631:8 35:19 39:1351:11,21 53:1556:13 61:11 71:5,775:2 90:14 104:20108:7,8 112:18119:10,25 120:9,25121:4 130:21133:13 138:11,12139:15 146:5 150:3150:5 176:19181:14 182:12192:10 197:16
Dominic (10) 109:19132:19 133:7,16,18133:19 134:2,3,7135:2
Dominic's (1) 133:21double (1) 61:5Doug (1) 73:15DO/Retail (1) 141:21draft (4) 168:6 169:12
172:7 176:16drafted (8) 12:1 168:9
169:6,7 176:10,13176:13 177:1
drawing (1) 14:14drawn (1) 7:9drive (4) 43:11,12 48:8
148:22dual (1) 146:5due (10) 26:7,8 66:7
67:9,10 78:8 96:1157:16 160:25189:18
duly (3) 25:13 26:9141:11
duties (6) 23:20 36:4,636:8 90:4 182:13
210November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
duty (1) 26:21DVL (2) 177:18 178:2Dyson (36) 3:18,20 4:2
6:21 12:25 14:8,2015:7 34:25 35:639:25 49:12 64:764:17 79:10 84:1190:24 95:21 97:21100:14 103:2112:15 133:9136:10 156:3171:23 172:14,24173:5,25 174:6,12202:2 204:11,13206:2
Dyson's (1) 3:25D/15/177 (2) 52:16
125:20D/15/180 (2) 34:3
52:20D/15/186 (3) 124:5
126:19 127:14D/27/365 (2) 158:19
200:16D/27/368 (1) 200:6D/29/395 (1) 201:16D/3/17 (1) 178:18D1 (6) 52:15 103:4
124:4 178:18,20,21D2 (2) 158:18 200:3
E
e (4) 107:4 109:12161:21 194:14
earlier (12) 38:11 64:274:22 87:2 98:13113:6 117:21 118:1183:14 196:3200:18 201:1
earliest (1) 10:2earn (1) 44:16earned (2) 47:21
139:1earning (4) 142:15
143:12 144:1,15easier (1) 117:18East (1) 80:20easy (1) 120:5effect (6) 43:1 48:16
77:6 177:22 178:25179:24
effective (1) 71:8effectively (10) 2:14
57:13 70:25 71:686:8,20 88:5119:11 124:23180:12
egg (2) 64:17,24eggs (4) 64:16 65:5
74:13,17eight (3) 47:17 54:17
69:15either (12) 11:22 40:4
44:15 61:8 64:1473:25 75:9 77:8168:10 177:22181:12 204:8
element (5) 46:283:14 111:16,19116:22
elements (2) 49:2150:3
else's (1) 122:17elucidate (1) 174:5em (2) 63:2,6email (33) 6:23 28:7
30:10 32:2,15 37:238:3 39:6 45:1350:7,18 62:3 64:1366:1,4 68:6,11,20
71:13,16 76:7,887:8 90:7 93:2294:9 95:2,22 101:9112:21 113:6,15118:2
emailed (2) 15:1368:21
emailed/copied (1)95:23
emailing (3) 64:684:16 100:4
emails (5) 68:15 94:25100:1 140:14144:19
emergency (28) 23:1225:15,20,23 26:3,426:5 49:15,19,2154:4,11,16 55:8,1156:1 61:25 70:2471:3 89:2 92:12107:2,15,22 108:12111:5 119:4 122:8
Emma (1) 6:24emoluments (1) 9:14employ (2) 120:6,14employed (5) 29:3
81:21 146:4,18192:7
employee (10) 8:1736:11 116:3,7,9,10191:18,21 192:12192:23
employees (4) 117:11179:12 196:21,23
employer (5) 29:232:25 191:20 192:4193:9
employment (23)23:18 46:6 53:1854:23 55:4 56:2190:4 104:5,5,6,7106:10,11,12,17119:12 143:1,20144:2 173:18,19180:1,5
enclosed (1) 114:14encompasses (1)
174:1endeavours (1) 192:12ended (3) 146:9 152:5
158:25endorsed (1) 140:19ends (2) 54:10 162:2engage (1) 187:23enjoyed (1) 158:12enquiries (1) 75:24ensure (1) 167:13enter (2) 77:9 154:16entire (1) 80:14entirely (2) 85:5
119:17entitled (20) 13:18
24:24 25:6 51:2386:15 91:12 92:1194:3 110:2,4112:13,19 155:5156:22 160:4171:23 172:3189:12 190:20199:10
entitlement (1) 143:23entries (1) 85:13envisaged (2) 54:5
138:22equalisation (5) 189:3
189:11,13,18192:20
equally (1) 40:18equates (1) 12:16equipment (1) 134:23
equivalent (3) 90:1590:25 116:15
Erm (2) 115:23 147:18error (1) 17:1especially (2) 5:5
194:14established (1) 71:24estimated (1) 145:17et (25) 7:11 50:2 54:9
54:9 70:12 72:1272:12 85:18,18104:7 105:21 110:5110:8 132:1 139:4144:15 149:23150:13 162:13164:14,23 181:8,8192:15,15
event (2) 177:19179:22
events (3) 20:6,1825:22
everybody (2) 44:14146:12
everybody's (1) 146:8evidence (30) 2:7 3:25
5:14,14 15:16,2215:23 16:3 20:1424:14 30:18 42:1651:10 59:11 60:1361:23 110:18 121:2130:24 143:7151:22 157:24173:5 176:4 180:15181:22 182:5 192:6192:8 201:18
evidenced (1) 84:15evidencing (1) 121:9evidential (1) 87:16exactly (7) 13:8,12
52:12 91:24 102:7115:14 154:9
examined (1) 48:25example (11) 61:23
68:14 106:18107:25 108:5 125:7125:7,22 158:1177:8,8
examples (3) 105:3180:3 181:7
excellent (1) 187:14excess (2) 53:19 54:24exchanged (1) 2:10Exclamation (2) 28:1
63:7excludes (1) 100:8executive (1) 178:25exercise (4) 8:15 9:1
10:9 78:8exercising (1) 55:10exhaustive (4) 177:20
178:11 179:22180:4
exist (1) 121:15existed (1) 174:6existing (4) 80:20
147:24 154:20203:20
exit (8) 76:25 77:3,594:13 185:5,8,23187:9
exited (3) 185:16,18186:6
expansion (1) 65:22expect (1) 81:19expected (1) 148:17expenses (5) 107:17
109:13 117:4118:13,17
experience (9) 15:580:21 142:4,6
149:2 178:7 179:25202:21 203:9
experienced (1) 67:25explain (4) 16:19
74:24 114:10117:13
explained (2) 142:14157:4
explains (1) 28:17explanation (9) 15:24
16:1 68:22 114:4118:25,25 194:20194:24 196:11
explanations (1) 110:8expressed (2) 78:11
198:8expression (1) 97:15extent (5) 23:11
107:24 151:2173:25 186:23
extrapolation (3) 54:154:3,21
extremely (3) 63:1974:14 161:11
E/100/457 (1) 36:23E/104/488 (1) 42:2E/1056/3132 (1)
180:24E/1068/4192 (2)
162:1 168:10E/1068/4199 (2)
162:2 177:9E/109/506 (2) 50:5
58:22E/128/546 (1) 61:24E/138/582 (1) 63:22E/139/588 (1) 64:4E/141/592 (1) 66:18E/155/637 (1) 66:23E/157/643 (1) 68:3E/157/644 (1) 68:15E/160/650 (1) 71:10E/179/700 (1) 73:1E/179/701 (1) 73:16E/184.2/710.5 (1)
84:3E/184/710 (1) 75:12E/185/711 (2) 77:14
85:13E/186/712 (1) 84:4E/187/714 (4) 83:18
84:17 86:5 88:8E/191/802 (1) 90:8E/192/803 (1) 94:25E/211/870 (2) 100:2
102:1E/213/872 (1) 101:10E/230/932 (1) 96:22E/230/934 (2) 96:19
97:2E/264/1073 (1)
103:11E/280/1176 (1) 132:5E/281/1177 (1)
131:22E/284/1180 (1) 132:6E/302/1210 (2) 135:8
138:2E/307/1217 (1)
141:15E/34/275 (1) 6:23E/349/1300 (1)
144:24E/389.1/1483 (1)
113:12E/389.1/1484 (2)
114:1,17E/389/1482 (1)
112:21E/44.1/360.1 (1)
197:20E/44.2/306‐24 (1)
197:19E/77/393 (1) 18:21E/77/394 (1) 20:3E/86/418 (1) 24:2E/86/426 (1) 24:4E/88/433 (1) 27:2E/88/434 (1) 27:19E/95.1/448 (1) 45:11E/95/447 (2) 28:5 45:9E/97/450 (1) 32:10E15 (4) 161:21,23
181:1,2E2 (7) 3:23 6:19,22,23
24:1 197:18,18E2/393 (1) 18:21E3 (4) 50:4 72:23,25
90:6E4 (3) 90:6 103:3,4E5 (7) 103:6,6,8,9
131:20,21 141:14E5/1177 (1) 131:22E6 (1) 112:20
F
face (2) 83:22 100:21face‐to‐face (1)
168:18facilitate (1) 136:1facing (1) 166:20fact (17) 28:10 29:5
43:22 61:18 66:982:4 93:21 120:21140:16 154:23158:9 159:16160:13 162:8 163:7200:16,16
facts (2) 155:5 171:20factual (1) 3:12fact‐heavy (1) 2:18failed (1) 187:10fair (8) 14:6 121:25
147:17 166:25167:2,5,8,9
fall (1) 12:2fallen (2) 105:21
185:21Faller (1) 135:13falls (1) 177:18false (6) 123:7,9,14,16
123:18 181:19family (2) 104:8
106:18far (6) 2:22 46:6 65:3
105:13 166:21187:6
father (2) 104:4106:12
father's (1) 104:5fault (1) 123:16favour (1) 74:12favourite (1) 42:22February (12) 4:15
5:18 6:25 9:2 15:822:25 39:17 136:22136:24 168:17186:2 198:13
fee (1) 91:2feel (1) 32:5feelings (1) 21:22feels (1) 192:12fees (8) 90:16 91:1
93:17 109:17116:23 136:6,7138:14
fellow (2) 112:2 186:5felt (2) 140:19 158:16Fernandes (1) 196:23fide (1) 8:17
fiduciary (1) 26:21field (1) 75:22fifth (1) 177:13figure (17) 9:18 12:2
13:5,8,9 43:20 48:154:10 138:25 139:8143:22 147:25159:12 196:2198:15,21 199:16
figures (14) 10:4,1311:20 13:21 27:1528:9 30:3 53:21142:10 158:1 194:3194:5,20 195:6
filled (1) 79:11final (7) 103:25 104:2
113:20 130:12166:4,5 167:14
finalising (1) 106:23finally (7) 41:24 71:19
96:17 139:23181:15 193:11204:13
financial (13) 25:1167:5,6 68:17 74:2592:1 94:4 121:23122:13 200:24201:2,20,22
find (10) 3:9 24:159:12 69:3 86:6113:14 140:13166:24 178:18187:19
finding (1) 83:10findings (6) 21:1
102:16 163:14169:9,11 172:16
fine (13) 19:8 55:971:19 97:11 103:23110:22 135:6 144:1174:8 176:3 177:3195:10,25
finger (1) 197:19fingerprints (1) 183:9finish (2) 3:2 151:14finished (2) 103:4,5finishes (1) 2:7firm (2) 98:22 202:18first (27) 7:8 16:7 24:2
49:13 68:6 73:1781:9 90:17 101:12102:4 106:20 119:2123:23 124:2,20127:18 128:9 132:9134:21 136:23156:4 178:8 181:15189:3,18 193:24202:19
fishing (1) 61:15five (16) 12:17 15:18
47:13,22 53:23,2387:2 106:7,8 121:7153:12 155:23161:9 196:21,23197:6
five‐minute (1) 49:7fix (2) 120:7 142:9fixed (4) 87:1,16,20
91:2fixing (2) 4:16,17flick (7) 71:10 72:25
94:23 106:22 135:6144:24 193:11
flicking (1) 197:17flight (2) 204:14,16focus (3) 57:16,21,23focused (3) 48:8 80:25
93:22follow (3) 79:15 187:2
187:24
following (12) 30:1630:23 31:20 33:635:6 41:8 95:1104:10 107:8 113:6170:16 205:13
follows (1) 33:24forcibly (2) 184:19
185:1foresaw (1) 40:11foreseeable (1) 12:12forever (1) 193:7form (3) 94:12 175:1
176:3formal (2) 19:24
188:20formally (1) 19:19format (2) 145:3,4formed (2) 106:5
167:6forth (5) 172:17,19,23
172:25 173:2forward (9) 43:11,12
48:9 67:16 89:2140:19 148:22198:16 201:14
forwarded (2) 63:2366:5
forwards (2) 30:7,10foul (1) 185:21found (1) 115:14four (12) 4:10 106:2,8
111:1 115:12 122:7153:12 162:12168:20 176:19178:3 184:7
fourth (2) 153:17193:21
fraud (9) 119:7,10,12119:14,23,23 120:2120:17 123:5
fraudulent (14) 83:11119:6,18,19 120:4120:5,6,8,12,14,16120:20 121:5,17
fraudulently (1)121:11
frequent (1) 203:23Friday (16) 1:11,17 2:7
2:8 3:2,24,25 4:64:19 5:24 6:25 7:2012:4 15:11,1741:16
friend (5) 171:17172:25 204:22205:3,10
friend's (1) 197:25Frondigoun (6) 20:12
23:25 24:3 31:17186:8,13
full (3) 3:9 111:12160:17
full‐scale (1) 119:3function (1) 58:9functionalities (1)
72:16functions (1) 56:11fundamental (3) 42:14
46:18 118:24further (7) 23:24
116:22 167:19175:13 182:3 195:2201:24
future (9) 8:18 12:1278:9 94:19 98:2299:15 145:18,18150:11
G
gain (2) 67:21,23gather (1) 25:1
211November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
general (1) 167:7generalisation (1)
185:4generally (1) 136:2generate (1) 66:10generating (1) 65:25generous (1) 27:25gentleman (1) 20:20getting (12) 11:25
71:13 105:15 114:3117:14 138:9 143:4148:11 154:3 192:1192:4 193:1
gift (2) 26:17 195:10gifted (2) 189:20
195:13Girollet (2) 158:5
180:23give (19) 4:7 7:2 8:13
22:21 52:17 57:2157:22 58:6 61:1074:19 80:5 85:7,17105:3 110:17 158:8169:15 171:18180:15
given (24) 3:23 40:1047:11,18 48:1661:2 78:12 87:195:21 98:17 103:13122:10 143:11151:22 154:10,11164:20 165:19168:11,11 171:4173:9 174:15 202:4
giver (1) 58:2gives (6) 9:18 58:7,11
98:11 150:21174:10
giving (10) 29:3 48:151:10 77:4 82:20114:13 150:17157:25 172:19203:1
Glass (5) 7:23 8:1,514:20 37:19
go (53) 4:5,9 7:4,128:14 17:20 18:2022:7 24:15 27:128:4 32:12 33:957:10 59:17 67:872:23 76:1 77:1077:13 80:19 81:1583:18 90:6 96:1899:14 100:1 112:20117:23 126:19134:4,14 136:13140:3 157:6 158:18159:22 161:21,24168:14 169:8 170:9171:8 174:7 178:14178:15 181:15187:17 188:4191:16 192:16197:20 204:5
GOC (1) 125:11goes (7) 2:22 12:5
25:10,11 29:1598:16 193:25
going (92) 1:22,23 3:33:13 4:22 14:1915:7,16,21 21:1824:15,18,20 26:2,328:18 30:1,1138:22,25 39:20,2541:6 47:1 55:1,2,373:2 76:16,1880:13 81:3,7 83:1383:14 87:10,1188:22 89:2,7 93:1793:19 94:11,12,13
94:14,16 96:1499:19 102:16108:11 117:22120:12 121:3124:24 128:22129:21,23 130:7131:11 133:17137:10 141:25142:3,3,25 145:6146:22 148:19149:25 150:16152:2,4 154:16,18155:3,13 158:7164:8,9 168:2,8,19170:15 174:12176:22 183:16188:23 190:6192:11 202:6 203:2
gold (3) 65:25 66:2,10good (11) 1:3,4 3:20
3:21 38:20 48:1582:9 96:8 109:12148:21 159:15
grand (1) 138:11grateful (1) 205:7Gravesend (9) 37:12
38:13 78:10 82:1582:17,24 83:1,5,9
Grays (10) 135:25140:21 142:14143:12 144:2 145:9153:22 154:8 155:9155:11
Grazia (9) 12:1 33:235:7 39:18 96:2299:21 152:22153:13 154:4
great (4) 149:23156:16 157:1159:24
greatly (1) 80:25green (1) 75:1grievance (1) 19:5gross (4) 106:4,5,21
179:1group (20) 16:21 17:2
21:3,4,5 40:3,541:3 77:10 84:2585:4,9,22 88:2196:8 97:16 152:2,5152:6,8
Groves (8) 27:4 42:2564:14 65:25 67:1469:7,24 71:11
Groves's (2) 63:2366:4
guarantee (2) 149:24150:1
guarantees (1) 120:10Guernsey (3) 8:7
16:21 17:2guess (2) 72:2 132:6guessing (4) 18:16
59:22 71:24 72:1guilt (1) 41:21guilty (2) 41:17 179:5guys (1) 75:8
H
ha (2) 63:12,12hade (1) 144:16half (9) 2:14,21 46:13
46:13 97:9 114:21118:4 145:8 187:11
Hamilton (6) 18:8,1162:3,21 109:18,22
Hamilton's (2) 62:1462:16
hand (4) 113:7 144:16176:12 205:5
handed (4) 1:5 6:4171:5 204:22
handwritten (1)169:16
happen (3) 23:2296:14 168:20
happened (12) 48:1148:12,21 51:20105:17,19 142:13155:9 158:3 171:9175:8 203:23
happens (4) 23:1142:23 199:19203:25
happy (5) 6:10 33:664:14 142:14,18
harassing (1) 186:1harassment (1) 186:4hard (2) 161:11
192:21harsh (1) 82:1Hart (5) 75:17,20
76:11,13,13Hart's (1) 75:21head (2) 66:10 178:22heading (13) 63:24
114:16,21 123:24132:9 133:5 146:23147:1 181:16190:11 191:11193:13 194:9
health (2) 105:13,19healthy (1) 201:23hear (8) 14:19 31:10
163:16,18,23 165:4165:11,17
heard (4) 135:17155:14 162:11174:3
hearing (6) 19:1964:22 98:18 163:18163:19,22
held (1) 98:18help (4) 74:20 93:23
126:8 204:10helped (1) 197:11helpful (3) 3:6,9,11helping (3) 48:8 75:25
161:7helps (1) 89:18Hi (7) 28:8 37:11 38:4
84:19 95:4 113:5135:20
high (2) 150:22 155:3hire (1) 63:1historic (2) 105:16
200:25HM (1) 195:13HMRC (7) 145:17,22
146:3,5,10,15196:1
Hm‐mm (9) 59:6 65:280:24 101:21,24125:14 169:4 185:9191:16
hog (1) 7:13hold (3) 32:7 151:20
151:24holders (1) 34:16holding (2) 97:4,14holds (1) 97:17hole (1) 73:18holepunch (7) 68:6
96:25 97:5,9,10132:10,18
holiday (2) 66:9136:14
home (1) 60:6honest (1) 77:4honesty (1) 73:20
hope (1) 204:15hopefully (1) 203:11hoping (1) 147:15hour (4) 51:9 108:2,4
108:5hours (4) 29:24 115:2
149:23 161:8Howarth (3) 37:22,22
131:3hugely (1) 43:23hundreds (1) 61:16husband (4) 1:9
106:13 122:25123:1
husband's (1) 104:5
I
idea (23) 13:1 17:1731:11,12 41:1450:11,11 76:1978:20 82:23 87:8100:16,20 101:6,7133:16,22 135:5136:17 139:12,14170:23 175:11
identified (3) 30:16,2331:20
if/when (1) 38:14ignore (1) 128:4ignored (1) 184:6ignoring (1) 153:25ii (1) 127:1illness (2) 54:9 139:3illustrative (2) 178:4
178:10imagine (2) 38:23
134:17immediate (4) 9:25
177:21 178:25179:24
immediately (1)154:24
Imogen (1) 75:15implications (2)
119:24 155:11importance (2) 153:20
153:23important (9) 18:12
71:16 90:21 91:21167:1 170:25202:17 203:8,10
impose (1) 56:23imposed (1) 202:16imposition (1) 166:10impractical (1) 21:14impression (1) 80:2improper (1) 186:9improve (3) 44:15
93:14 94:8improved (2) 157:2,17improving (2) 156:20
160:2inappropriate (2)
20:23 38:21inaudible (3) 173:16
191:7 202:20incapacitated (1) 54:9incentive (1) 150:23include (3) 70:14
71:16 101:3included (1) 117:8includes (3) 9:11
53:17 74:4including (6) 50:1
51:19 116:16143:10,10 164:5
income (8) 59:3 68:2169:2 86:9,12,2190:17 91:14
incomplete (1) 104:3
inconvenience (1)2:24
incorporate (1) 60:2incorrect (4) 92:2,3,4
94:6increase (10) 43:14
156:11,23,25157:21 159:22160:4,23 161:12200:11
increased (1) 156:5increases (12) 28:2,10
29:4,17,17 32:2342:4,11 123:22196:16,17,19
increasing (1) 192:21incur (5) 55:2,3 107:20
107:21 118:9incurred (17) 107:8,9
107:10,13,16,19,25108:2,3,18 109:3109:13,15,17,20110:1 112:17
incurring (2) 108:16109:8
independent (3) 21:25118:6,8
index (2) 84:5 206:1indication (1) 78:11indicative (2) 65:2,6indirectly (2) 81:14
182:21individual (12) 61:20
93:23 114:14125:10 130:9,14,14131:15 140:20142:7 164:23192:21
individuals (1) 131:17induction (2) 134:17
134:18inexperienced (1)
81:20infers (1) 31:15inflation (1) 28:11information (14) 9:5
75:23 76:1 83:23115:5 143:11144:16 154:10,11168:11 197:8,11200:25 201:2
initial (1) 136:2initially (2) 32:11
81:22injured (1) 105:15innocent (1) 17:1input (10) 17:13 22:8
22:12,13,16 24:624:10 45:15 49:2482:7
inserted (2) 145:7147:23
inside (1) 109:24insight (1) 174:10install (2) 56:5,5instructed (1) 17:22instruction (1) 184:6instructions (3) 1:14
96:12 187:3insurance (1) 105:14intend (2) 73:24
151:24intended (1) 151:20intending (1) 161:17intention (4) 181:22
182:2,4,14interest (4) 78:11
124:16 127:16135:2
interested (8) 31:10
40:24 64:13 82:1782:25 83:6 102:15111:10
interests (6) 58:13,17151:7,9,10,12
internal (5) 7:17 75:1577:19 107:19 172:4
internally (1) 97:15international (1) 65:22interpret (1) 89:5interpretation (5)
86:24 102:8 143:11177:10 180:6
interpreted (1) 94:9interpreting (1) 88:25interview (4) 21:25
30:20 31:12,16interviews (16) 24:2
24:11 30:16,18,1930:23 31:2,3,4,5,631:9,13,14,18,20
intimidating (1) 20:13introduce (3) 40:20
204:1,1introduced (3) 82:12
203:18,21introducing (1) 38:22introduction (2) 84:23
136:3investigate (3) 7:11
79:14 186:4investigated (4) 39:12
39:24 115:11164:13
investigating (1) 60:20investigation (84)
17:22 18:5,9,1019:10,14,16 20:2121:17,19 23:2024:9,20,22,25 25:725:17 26:1,23 31:838:19 39:15,1740:12 41:1,8,1350:1 54:6 58:22,2460:10,17 61:8 62:162:15,17,20 72:1780:9 87:25 88:1489:1 90:2 96:2,499:13 100:9 102:13102:17 103:10107:4 108:11,21110:5,15 111:3,11111:16,19,20 112:2112:9,10,11,18119:3 121:22122:12,16,21123:12 130:22138:16,23 139:3146:5,7,16 150:8162:5,6 187:25195:3
investigations (2)23:24 181:14
investigator (1) 59:1investigatory (1) 21:25invited (2) 19:19
115:25invoiced (2) 67:7
68:23invoices (19) 50:13,18
50:23 63:23 66:1966:20 67:8,11,1568:2 100:6 101:1115:13 119:21,25120:10,22 194:9,25
invoicing (4) 60:16,17100:10 101:25
involve (4) 23:15 46:269:23 134:20
involved (48) 4:15
14:23 17:17 18:918:18,24 22:342:25 47:6 48:1359:23 65:21 70:2071:13 89:4 103:17110:9,20 112:11114:3 117:14128:24 129:5,21,24129:25 130:4,7,8130:13 131:3,12136:10 139:21141:7,9 144:5153:8 162:9 163:10163:12,15 164:8,15164:24 182:11188:22 189:23
involvement (13) 19:262:13 64:3 95:1395:16,17 117:2121:8 152:15 183:8184:12 188:17196:25
involving (4) 100:1119:3 155:15173:17
in‐house (1) 96:8issue (23) 1:8 4:13,20
26:24 27:1,9 30:1730:24 31:21 49:1466:23 68:4 69:181:17 105:16,19152:14 153:5,7162:12 171:12179:13 197:18
issued (1) 195:3issues (10) 105:13,14
105:14 153:14162:10 164:1,2176:5,20 180:2
issuing (2) 101:16102:5
item (6) 8:1 135:3145:12,13 193:24194:19
items (7) 133:6 138:19139:4,11 150:7194:12 196:14
J
January (5) 132:4,5,7133:9 191:23
Jill (4) 80:1 81:14183:1 197:11
Jita (1) 196:24job (8) 27:5 127:11
133:13 134:22139:18 155:4164:24 197:16
jobs (1) 134:21John (6) 135:14,15,15
135:20 136:13,19join (1) 203:1joined (5) 134:16
152:10 156:21160:3 161:13
joining (1) 23:15joint (10) 41:9 67:25
131:4 147:15148:21 150:10152:11 154:17,21202:17
journey (2) 54:11187:11
judge (3) 166:19201:25 206:5
July (11) 66:7 71:11112:22 157:17,18157:22,25 158:17159:1,15 160:5
jumped (1) 29:12
212November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
June (10) 44:17,19,2044:21 63:22,2364:3,4 65:11 68:23
jury (1) 166:19JUSTICE (86) 1:3,6,10
1:23,25 2:3,8,13,172:20 3:2,6,12,176:5,8,14,17 12:1814:8,11,13,18 15:133:16,21,23 34:5,834:13,16,19 35:435:14,16 36:18,2140:9 41:2 49:5,7,1174:24 83:20,2484:5,10 102:21103:1 134:2 146:2146:7,13,21 149:12149:14 155:20,23156:2 172:6,13173:4,21,23 174:12174:18,21 175:3,7175:12 198:3,7199:24 202:1,13203:17 204:7,10,15204:18,24 205:1,4205:7,9,11
justification (1)156:13
justified (1) 191:8justify (1) 160:22justifying (1) 157:21JV (13) 41:10 63:3
66:13,15 73:2574:4 185:6,13,16185:17 187:14203:18,20
JVA (7) 147:14,23,24154:18,20,23,23
JVP (13) 81:23 105:22106:16 124:9 140:9152:25 153:8156:20 177:21178:2 179:23184:19 185:1
JVPs (4) 77:8 119:5149:14 156:25
K
Kam (2) 135:23 145:9Kam's (1) 136:3Kaur (1) 125:7keep (4) 111:5 181:25
192:24 197:19Kelly (4) 50:8,10,16
64:1Kidd (1) 157:15Kinsella (1) 196:24knew (5) 24:19 31:24
41:22 82:24 170:25know (87) 6:19 7:12
8:5,21 18:15 22:524:18 25:18 26:1626:17,21,23 27:1428:15 29:5 31:4,638:21 40:24 41:541:12 45:3 47:1950:10 52:12,1260:3 62:9,10,11,1264:1,2,23 65:2267:14 71:15,2479:11,11,18 81:8,982:5,5,15 83:8,2587:18 93:24 95:2599:12,20,25 102:2102:15 113:4130:18 131:16,16133:3 135:3 139:8152:21 153:12154:20 155:5 157:5165:3,5,7 171:9
172:10 175:8176:24 178:9179:17 182:9,9185:22 187:3,20192:8 193:7 194:23198:10 204:7
knowing (2) 136:17180:2
knowledge (20) 14:1514:17 39:3,6 61:1480:14 82:6,19,2183:5,12 183:18184:12 189:5 190:3194:5,15 195:4,21196:6
KS (1) 147:2
L
la (1) 92:15lack (7) 106:9,9,10,10
121:2,4 173:24lady (1) 197:14large (4) 104:20 119:9
122:25 181:6late (4) 1:20 64:4
76:23 129:9latest (1) 37:12Laura (1) 68:16law (2) 3:14 180:2lawyers (2) 172:17
175:4layer (1) 56:5lead (3) 120:11,13
178:5leadership (10) 57:16
57:21,23 58:2,6,961:13 71:8 107:23203:10
leading (1) 57:17leads (1) 57:8leave (5) 32:7 82:4
146:10 175:16197:5
leaves (1) 199:4leaving (4) 71:11
95:17 168:5 199:10lecturing (1) 1:18led (1) 164:4left (7) 22:25 75:14
128:24 146:1,5,19162:23
left‐hand (1) 146:24legal (28) 17:23 18:18
32:17 36:15,1978:17 113:16165:15 167:20168:5 169:9 171:4171:5,8,17,19,21171:23 172:3,4,20174:23 175:2,8,20176:11,22 177:2
legitimate (9) 91:8,991:10,10 118:13,16118:22 121:1 184:6
length (4) 33:12138:20 161:17162:11
letter (20) 19:9 96:2096:21,22 103:11110:7 112:25114:11,15 115:21141:10,10 142:25158:4,6 168:24180:16,17,19,19
let's (8) 16:5 43:2047:23 80:19 81:15123:23 124:2131:19
level (19) 12:12 28:1928:25 29:16,16
30:12 71:13 79:1379:18,20 87:11,13142:4,18 147:20148:12 150:22155:3 182:12
levels (1) 105:7liability (8) 145:15,17
145:23 146:3,16,17146:20 196:1
lieu (2) 177:23 178:2light (1) 15:8likelihood (1) 41:20Lillington (2) 113:2,3Limited (13) 8:10
33:19 34:15,17,2435:1,2,10,24 36:9111:23,24 158:23
Linda (6) 62:6,12,1863:10,10 134:11
line (10) 4:12 6:1828:11 114:9 151:19153:17 174:8 201:5201:7,19
lines (8) 4:24 5:1,4,5,85:10 111:1 122:7
linking (2) 100:22,23list (12) 7:24,25 53:14
105:10 120:8,15177:20 178:4179:23 180:3,7197:6
listed (1) 84:5listening (1) 43:19litigation (1) 173:17little (7) 55:14 65:25
66:2,10 89:18100:1 122:9
lived (1) 74:6living (1) 60:6loan (3) 12:21,23,23locum (1) 161:6locumming (1) 153:5locums (1) 161:4log (1) 115:2logical (1) 170:17London (1) 133:20long (20) 1:23 26:2,4
48:14 99:13 123:17130:17 142:7 150:1150:2,5,6 151:21159:22 161:8 170:7170:8 180:17,19203:14
longer (7) 14:24 26:358:2 89:2 121:15162:21 204:4
long‐term (2) 105:2151:25
look (18) 4:22,23 6:212:9 27:9,19,2328:18 30:11 31:2462:17 68:14,19124:11 126:8140:14 144:8178:16
looked (3) 131:6137:12 184:1
looking (12) 8:2114:13 16:2 27:544:3 58:12,16,2159:17 145:12 158:1178:17
looks (9) 9:25 12:714:7 32:12 34:163:10,15 88:18133:5
loose (1) 6:6Lord (24) 1:4 2:4,25
6:3,10 15:6 33:2034:4 36:17 40:15
49:4 74:22 102:20155:22 171:12172:9 173:15 174:8175:14 199:22200:1 204:9,20,21
Lordship (16) 1:4 2:52:11 9:23 10:9 11:414:1 16:19 35:2241:16 51:9 83:22113:3 196:2,5205:6
Lordship's (1) 7:25Lorraine (2) 23:25
24:3lose (1) 40:13loss (26) 10:15 19:12
60:4 72:3,22 78:879:9 80:4,9 85:1686:7,19 89:1790:18 93:25 95:1295:16 98:4 107:2,3109:3,4 142:22158:22 160:18183:21
losses (2) 139:1198:19
lot (8) 3:7,12 40:1961:2,5 75:6 98:7142:17
lots (9) 42:20 72:1974:19 101:19142:16,16 170:13203:6,6
lower (5) 12:2 90:2291:22 92:5 107:18
lucky (1) 3:2lunch (1) 106:24Lunn (31) 36:25,25
37:5,5,7,18 38:378:3,4 79:24 83:1383:19 84:15,1685:20 86:1,24 88:488:18,24 90:8,1493:22 94:22,2595:24 96:6,11 98:5117:24 118:2
Lunn's (2) 88:17 95:17
M
Maidstone (2) 152:23153:3
main (3) 60:4 118:11166:18
majority (5) 74:14,1674:18 164:1,2
maker (2) 173:8,9making (26) 17:20
54:20 67:9 81:588:2 91:14 92:2499:2,7,14,18,19109:9 138:6 142:16143:4 146:11,12165:21 174:21,24175:10 182:8187:23 197:10203:4
malicious (4) 186:16186:18,19,20
man (10) 37:19 44:1162:3 79:24 84:1599:2 108:9 112:24130:23 135:17
manage (3) 27:7 136:2182:3
managed (1) 89:2management (80)
10:13 13:9 22:2023:12,14 25:10,1326:11 34:10,2135:3,11 36:12
49:15,17,19,2250:24 51:12,13,1751:18 52:2,4,19,2252:25 53:4,9,12,1553:17 54:4,12,1655:8,11,17,19,2055:24 56:1,5,7,8,1156:16,19,21 57:1369:21,23 70:1972:9 79:13,17,1979:21 88:13 90:1691:1 100:8 101:3101:20 102:10107:2,15,22 108:12111:5,17 112:15,16114:16,21 119:4122:8 138:15,16191:22
manager (7) 37:761:25 75:13,22116:21 135:18139:18
managers (3) 70:11,1289:20
manager's (1) 150:7managing (9) 28:22
50:24 55:25 56:256:14 69:5 158:14160:8 161:2
Mancini (1) 123:12manual (2) 73:4,8manuscript (10)
169:18,24,25170:11,19,21 172:7173:11 175:17,24
March (9) 20:9 22:2325:21 135:8 137:23138:13,13 141:14167:23
mark (4) 16:22 28:162:7 133:15
market (1) 197:13Markham (1) 37:24marks (1) 63:7mark‐up (1) 89:8Mary (2) 99:9 163:3mass (1) 75:5matchmaking (1)
203:12material (10) 155:5,8
173:9 174:1,4,6,15174:18 175:9,9
materials (2) 169:19169:25
matter (19) 56:6,863:24 89:20 98:8100:18 110:23121:8 129:6 130:21141:8 154:6,7,15155:10 166:14172:18,20,21
matters (16) 23:1324:25 26:10,1135:5 40:21 110:7121:23 122:13152:15 155:15164:24 174:19175:5 188:21193:21
maturity (1) 11:1Maura (1) 135:13maximum (1) 12:20McAlindon (75) 4:15
4:19 5:18,19 6:2412:5 15:12,20 18:418:8,10,24 19:620:5,13,17 21:1621:18,23 23:2324:11,13,19 26:2527:5,9,20 28:7 30:4
30:6,7,25 31:7,2432:3 38:18 40:141:17 50:7 58:2159:23,24 60:2261:6,18 62:4 64:5,865:1 68:16 70:2371:12 76:3 84:1687:21 89:21 90:891:12 93:15,2194:1,21 95:1 100:4100:17 108:13123:17 165:21183:20 185:21,25186:7,16 197:5204:20
McAlindon's (15) 19:219:25 27:11 40:1241:14 59:5 65:2,668:4,11 88:11 89:8108:7 204:25 205:1
McGonagle (1) 136:1McIntyre (2) 163:15
181:13McIntyre's (3) 164:7
168:22 180:13McLaughlin (15) 49:23
55:23 58:10 61:2,484:23 88:9,12107:18,25 108:2,3108:4,8 117:12
McLaughlin's (4) 89:7193:14,24 194:6
Meagher (1) 6:24meals (2) 60:7 116:16mean (21) 24:12 49:1
59:9 71:15 99:1,11116:10,14 118:12120:23 121:7128:16 130:17,18133:25 139:25148:18,25 153:2199:8 202:6
meaning (1) 116:8meant (4) 17:1 35:21
35:22 198:3mediate (1) 187:2mediation (1) 188:2meet (2) 69:15 187:11meeting (12) 22:16
25:14 26:10,13,1959:15 69:14,18136:2 168:23 184:9203:22
meetings (3) 54:8 76:1121:9
Mel (11) 28:8 32:1450:20 64:8 68:1684:19 95:4 101:8,9101:11 102:3
Mel's (2) 38:15,16member (4) 47:12,14
106:18 137:2members (15) 23:25
24:15 42:4 44:2445:23 47:5,17 48:789:22 104:8,9164:15 182:5,6183:15
memo (1) 137:25memos (1) 65:16mention (3) 91:3
103:20 162:8mentioned (1) 74:22Mercedes (1) 66:24merely (1) 111:25message (1) 71:18meta (2) 83:23 84:7methodology (3) 11:5
58:18 172:11Michael (8) 83:11
135:16,17 136:1,13137:9,14,25
middle (3) 75:6,8118:5
mightn't (1) 121:18Mike (10) 10:11 37:11
136:18 137:1 138:6139:17 143:24144:8 155:2,4
million (14) 139:6,6148:4,7,9,13,17,18148:24 149:1,24159:6,7 202:5
mind (6) 21:11 48:21102:8 142:15165:13 170:20
mine (2) 65:25 66:10minimum (3) 147:22
148:12,17minus (1) 149:10minute (2) 59:15
118:19minutes (1) 155:23minutiae (1) 115:21misconduct (5) 105:8
106:4,5,21 179:1missed (1) 72:24missing (1) 104:3mistreatment (1)
181:7misunderstood (1)
190:2model (1) 152:12moment (14) 27:22
34:2 38:5,15,16,1939:9,20 69:1184:11 124:18173:23 174:2,3
Monday (5) 1:1,13 2:93:3,4
Mondays (1) 43:23money (18) 46:9,13,14
47:2 48:23 101:19102:9 104:20119:10 122:19,25142:16 144:3 146:8148:25 158:7199:13 201:8
monies (1) 67:1monitoring (1) 75:10month (9) 47:5 48:2
48:16,18 55:356:10 115:12 159:2159:3
monthly (5) 12:17100:9 102:11201:12,19
months (6) 38:11 54:554:17 138:23 159:1159:4
month's (1) 47:9Moore (8) 83:11
157:15 167:20168:12,21 169:2170:7,8
moral (1) 78:17morning (16) 1:3,4,16
2:11 3:20,21 6:257:3 15:13 30:764:11 117:21123:21 136:23151:23 205:8
motivate (4) 42:2347:25 192:23 193:5
motivating (4) 43:1048:4 193:2,3
motivation (5) 150:15150:16,18 182:10192:25
motive (1) 166:15
213November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
move (7) 4:2,4 16:5123:23 161:14,23188:25
moved (1) 18:4moving (3) 75:9,9
155:20MPT (1) 147:20multiplied (1) 11:3multiplier (1) 11:21mustn't (1) 95:6
N
nail (1) 167:14name (2) 73:16 134:22names (1) 163:1natural (2) 17:20 18:3nature (5) 20:4,16
25:7 165:19 174:9near (1) 94:18nearly (1) 65:20necessarily (6) 6:8
121:5 142:3 149:8149:9 178:11
necessary (3) 3:419:17 140:8
necessitated (4)121:22 122:12,17122:21
need (24) 1:8,21 4:5,77:3 10:11 32:16,2033:9 38:24 57:2162:24 75:18 87:3,5118:25 145:18181:2 192:25 193:2196:13 199:2,21202:21
needs (2) 57:16,16Neil (4) 18:8 38:4
93:22 94:6neither (2) 167:8
187:18net (4) 9:18 13:25
14:2 48:16netting (1) 12:16never (15) 15:25 54:5
69:12 76:19,2082:3 87:8 138:22151:6,20 157:13182:2,11,13 187:1
new (23) 41:9 42:5,742:17 44:11,1945:16 66:8 75:1377:8 147:12,14,15147:23 154:15,18154:18,20,23,23180:10 181:11194:19
NHI (1) 120:24NHS (2) 72:6,7night (1) 3:4Nimesh (8) 101:13,23
102:10 125:22,23126:13 128:16139:3
Nimesh's (1) 136:4nominated (1) 165:2nominee (1) 58:9non‐approved (3)
105:25 106:18119:16
non‐exhaustive (1)180:7
Nordics (1) 136:16normal (2) 9:14 131:2normally (6) 157:7
159:21 164:23203:25,25 204:3
note (8) 19:24 116:12121:19 194:19,25195:3,5 196:17
notes (26) 22:16 30:2031:13,16 45:2065:15 86:3 121:14131:25 140:13144:19 169:18,24170:1,11,13 171:7174:18,21,24,25175:10,16,17 176:3176:21
notice (9) 45:15127:20,23 128:2,4177:22,23 178:3,24
noting (1) 167:24Notwithstanding (1)
21:14November (2) 1:1
103:9NUGEE (86) 1:3,6,10
1:23,25 2:3,8,13,172:20 3:2,6,12,176:5,8,14,17 12:1814:8,11,13,18 15:133:16,21,23 34:5,834:13,16,19 35:435:14,16 36:18,2140:9 41:2 49:5,7,1174:24 83:20,2484:5,10 102:21103:1 134:2 146:2146:7,13,21 149:12149:14 155:20,23156:2 172:6,13173:4,21,23 174:12174:18,21 175:3,7175:12 198:3,7199:24 202:1,13203:17 204:7,10,15204:18,24 205:1,4205:7,9,11
number (15) 6:5 54:754:14 72:8 77:2077:21 79:5 141:11141:12 145:2146:11 149:10193:21 194:11195:17
numbers (1) 88:3numerous (1) 188:1
O
objection (2) 15:2152:14
objections (2) 152:20153:11
objective (1) 74:10objectives (1) 48:5obligation (1) 52:2obligations (3) 125:4
127:3,4observe (1) 127:3observer (2) 21:25
22:5obviously (22) 11:12
11:17 17:23 18:418:11 22:25 23:2340:19 42:25 64:564:18,25 71:1574:12 133:15136:12 137:12145:5 156:11168:19 170:25202:21
occasion (2) 105:24106:19
occasions (7) 15:1888:20 117:10153:12 169:2 188:1203:24
occurred (1) 4:18October (2) 96:24
103:14offence (2) 106:20
179:10offer (2) 141:10
142:25offered (1) 143:14offers (1) 188:2office (2) 10:10 21:24officers (3) 53:18
54:23 56:22Oh (1) 37:4okay (106) 10:25 18:4
18:17 19:8 20:1020:11,22 21:9,1222:15,19 23:11,2225:8 26:24 27:1428:17 29:23 31:631:12,16,19,2338:1 39:2 41:2443:1,9,16 45:6,2047:21 50:12 55:962:22 63:22 64:366:17,22 68:3,7,1169:7,19 71:10 72:372:23 73:12 74:975:12 76:23 79:581:11,15 82:883:18 92:25 96:2398:16 99:6,24102:19 108:21110:6 112:20114:16 116:2,12117:20 118:24122:15 123:21128:22 129:10130:16 131:5,19133:21,23 134:19135:6,15 136:9,15136:20 138:6139:10 140:18144:4,19 146:21153:4,7,16 157:16161:14 163:12168:8 176:8 179:21181:15 186:11189:10 191:1198:13 201:14
old (1) 42:17once (7) 4:5 36:10
69:13 79:8 80:385:15 142:14
ones (3) 30:19 74:18183:14
ongoing (3) 19:15 78:8201:3
onwards (8) 23:1349:12 110:6 139:22186:2 187:15188:12 189:1
OO (10) 41:10 80:2280:23,25 81:21,2282:11 125:13 126:3126:3
open (1) 6:22operates (1) 193:3operations (3) 16:14
70:6,10opinion (7) 43:4,6
46:17 48:12 106:5175:1 179:6
opportunity (7) 4:766:16 77:4 78:1181:16 187:5,12
opposed (1) 3:1opposition (1) 203:19opthalmic (2) 81:17
125:11Optical (8) 16:21,22
17:2,5 21:3,4,540:2
optician (6) 125:12,16125:20 126:12,25202:22
option (3) 82:18 83:1131:7
options (1) 131:6optometrist (1)
197:13oral (4) 2:13 3:1,9,15orally (2) 205:4,5order (12) 9:20 37:3
44:16 54:6,1158:15 105:23106:17 144:16148:22 149:11170:17
ordinary (1) 159:11organisation (2) 95:8
182:20organised (1) 163:22original (4) 25:25
104:19 137:11141:9
ought (1) 10:16outcome (13) 38:22
38:24 40:17 41:341:13,15,23 80:889:3 96:3 98:17101:16 102:5
outcomes (1) 40:11outside (1) 26:11outstanding (3) 40:21
100:6,25overall (3) 47:7 48:12
48:18oversee (1) 88:6overseeing (1) 39:3overseen (1) 163:14owed (1) 102:9Owen (1) 62:23owners (1) 69:4owns (3) 17:8 85:9,10O'Brien (5) 24:1,3
31:18 196:23,24o'clock (2) 102:20,21
P
PA (4) 62:7,14 63:15135:14
pack (16) 169:18,19169:22 170:19,21171:5,5 173:8,12174:15,18 175:8,9175:16 176:3180:25
package (1) 145:12page (107) 4:10,12,23
5:1,1,4,8,10 6:206:22,23 7:24,258:22 19:23 20:324:1 27:2,19 28:432:10 36:22 37:242:2 45:9,10 50:552:15,20 53:258:21 61:23 63:1164:4,6 66:18,2368:3,14 72:25 73:373:4,5,5,8,10,10,1573:18 75:12 77:1383:18,21 84:3,4,1685:12 90:6 94:2394:23 96:18 97:9100:2 101:9 103:10112:20 113:12114:1,24 122:15124:5,12 125:19126:8,9 131:20132:5,5 135:6141:14 144:24145:3,8 146:22
152:13 158:18161:24 168:8,9177:9 178:18,21,22178:23 180:24,24190:7,7 193:13194:8,18 196:1197:18,20 200:5,13200:22
pages (3) 4:10 170:12190:8
pagination (1) 4:10paid (18) 8:19 46:9
67:8 109:14 119:21122:24 136:4 138:3141:22 142:2 143:9145:18,22 146:15189:15 191:14,17197:15
paper (7) 6:3,6 121:12121:13 175:17179:18 205:5
papers (1) 7:9paperwork (10) 105:8
105:23 106:9,17119:13 120:16121:2,5 129:23168:21
paragraph (57) 4:416:6,8,17 19:921:12 49:12 66:1,468:19 97:5 103:24104:23 106:23110:6,11,22,23116:2 117:23118:24 119:1121:20 122:2,5124:4 128:23 129:2140:6 141:6 151:15152:13 160:14161:16 162:4167:18 169:21177:13 180:9181:17 184:5,18188:25 189:4,7,8,9190:15 191:3,16193:25,25 195:14195:17,18 196:15196:22
paragraphs (7) 49:13111:12 117:21156:4,14 188:12194:11
parked (1) 40:25parking (1) 62:25part (24) 4:2 7:16 18:7
20:24 21:16 42:1155:10 60:23 79:1279:17 96:20,21142:9 147:10148:11 151:6153:11 155:16162:15 164:12,24166:13 173:12193:2
particular (1) 79:2particularly (4) 24:19
93:24 114:9 159:15parties (2) 126:9,10partner (25) 37:23,25
38:1 40:20 66:1366:15 67:25 78:682:16 86:6 141:21154:19 155:13158:15 161:7 185:6185:13,16,17187:14 193:8203:18,20 204:1,3
partners (26) 37:1238:13,22 63:469:15 73:25 74:4
74:10,12 78:10,1782:16,24 83:1,5,6,988:23 131:4 148:21157:6 164:22 199:4202:17,19 203:4
partnership (8) 41:1074:10 86:17 149:21150:15 187:4 188:1202:10
partnerships (3) 74:14164:22 203:6
parts (2) 72:22 188:8party (1) 79:22pass (4) 32:6 110:2
127:9 202:23passed (4) 7:16 103:6
107:11 158:18Patel (36) 5:19 11:12
12:5 22:25 38:1039:17 40:6 67:1,1383:9 92:16 104:18104:19 106:14,15122:20,22 123:16124:8,14 125:22126:13,15 127:22127:25 128:7,16139:3 140:20 142:2146:4 151:3 187:19188:13 189:12,20
Patel's (25) 4:16 5:179:3 11:17,25 13:1715:19 23:6 40:2557:5 66:18,2467:10 93:8 97:3,797:13 122:17145:23 146:3,16195:11,21 197:23198:12
Patrice (3) 24:1,3196:23
Pause (10) 5:2,4,8,1133:25 68:8 99:5111:14 118:19160:12
pay (37) 52:6 53:1954:24 55:1 60:21107:22 109:20120:24,24 122:25144:5,11,13 149:17149:20 150:12157:7,9,13,25158:4,7,9,16159:18,21 160:22161:12 177:22,22178:2 190:11,15,20191:11 197:12202:8
payable (6) 48:18 67:8145:17 197:23198:12 199:4
paying (8) 46:13 56:10104:19 119:9123:14 144:14157:21 192:22
payment (10) 50:1750:19 52:6 66:2567:12 145:22 146:9146:15 188:13,14
payments (8) 25:1166:24 98:4 123:24156:6,6 188:12200:22
payout (1) 47:3PA's (1) 101:9penultimate (1) 27:20people (43) 3:2 17:22
29:3 34:13,20,2140:24 48:1 49:2258:19 60:3 61:1261:16,19 74:2,18
75:6,24 105:14107:19,23 112:11117:9,11 119:24120:21 121:10127:6,8 132:1137:12 165:20166:23 176:14180:5 182:8,20,22184:2 187:11,23193:4 197:12
people's (1) 117:2percentage (2) 11:10
47:7perform (2) 43:2
127:3performance (21)
48:25 75:1 82:1193:14 94:8 136:6142:7 147:22156:20 157:2,17158:2,10 159:14160:2,22,25 161:1191:13,21 192:24
performing (2) 140:21182:13
period (20) 10:18,1914:3 26:2,4 54:1365:11 69:12 90:5108:6,8 131:14158:9 159:5,10163:10 190:22191:4,6 198:20
periodic (1) 201:10periods (1) 201:19Perkins (5) 73:15 99:9
103:10 135:15163:3
Perkins's (1) 135:14permission (1) 119:20person (29) 17:19,20
18:2,3 21:24 31:2556:15 70:3 72:1575:15 93:2 116:21124:17,20 125:10126:20,21 127:2,17127:18 128:8137:14 140:11155:14 163:20165:17 166:24199:9 203:8
personal (6) 24:10,1267:11 178:6,7194:5
personally (31) 2:2332:8 69:8,25 76:1799:1 110:8,20117:14 133:9139:21 144:5 152:9162:15,19 163:9164:17 183:7184:12 188:16,21188:22 189:5,22190:3 194:15,17,24195:4 196:6,25
perspective (1) 88:7phase (2) 101:17
102:6phoned (1) 5:19Physical (1) 72:10physically (1) 176:14pick (4) 16:7 28:4 90:7
178:16picked (1) 14:1picking (1) 170:15piece (3) 134:23
179:18 205:5pieces (1) 175:17pinpoint (1) 132:15PL (1) 10:15place (10) 20:24 59:20
214November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
94:11 100:11,24102:1 105:8 119:13132:24,25
plainly (1) 65:5plan (31) 4:13,14 5:16
7:5 15:14,19 39:2572:18 79:13 94:1094:15,16,17 95:1495:19,25 96:14105:3 132:19,23133:7,8,10,12,14134:18 135:3 151:3151:5 152:6 154:22
planned (1) 80:18plans (3) 77:6 98:22
99:14play (5) 60:23 66:19
66:25 142:9 162:15please (8) 28:18 30:11
50:17 59:3 88:9103:8 113:14 200:5
pleased (1) 40:4plus (4) 107:16 138:16
143:16,20pm (5) 102:23,25
155:24 156:1205:12
point (64) 4:6 18:1,2122:22 24:22 26:629:20,25 30:1 32:242:10 44:4 51:554:20 55:4,7 64:2165:13 66:3 75:1484:1 91:14,1892:23 94:17,1895:11 96:12,15104:24 109:9 118:1125:25,25 127:13130:13 131:1,5,17138:6 139:22,25141:9 143:3,4145:5 146:1,19149:11 150:22151:24 157:5162:18 163:2173:15 174:9181:13,21,22186:17 187:21190:21 191:3199:11
points (9) 124:2167:19 168:2170:15,18 175:22177:6 183:10193:13
policies (1) 167:1policy (2) 73:4,8Polish (3) 104:11
105:11 120:8pond (2) 61:15,17poor (1) 160:19portfolio (2) 37:8
134:24position (19) 26:18
29:19 38:9,1740:13 91:15,1692:1 94:4,22 96:17129:13 139:5 196:8200:9,13 201:7,20201:22
positive (2) 78:1881:17
possibilities (1) 41:12possibility (2) 40:16
41:10possible (5) 40:11 41:3
99:17 177:20179:23
possibly (3) 63:1782:19 120:3
potential (3) 82:10137:13 145:16
potentially (5) 90:3119:10 120:24150:13 155:15
Potts (36) 1:12 2:4,92:14,19,25 3:5,113:16 36:16,20171:12,17,23 172:1172:9,14,25 173:2173:15,22 174:8197:25 198:5199:24,25 200:2,3204:13,20,25 205:2205:5,8,10 206:4
pounds (1) 48:17power (5) 46:7 52:19
55:10,15 56:23powers (9) 25:5 34:9
34:20 35:2 36:1152:21,24 53:7,11
practice (3) 11:1 74:21131:2
pray (1) 124:5precisely (1) 136:18preferred (2) 82:18
83:1prejudging (1) 19:15preparation (1) 66:8prepared (3) 7:12,23
15:11preparing (1) 2:9present (2) 21:1 86:22presumably (5) 65:10
73:24 103:17135:22 162:18
presume (3) 31:1362:23 84:12
presuming (1) 80:8presumption (1) 84:12presumptuous (1)
79:10pretty (1) 159:16Prevention (20) 19:12
60:4 72:3,22 78:879:9 80:4,9 85:1686:7,19 90:1895:12,16 98:4107:2,3 109:3,5183:21
previous (10) 43:2147:4 48:19 56:2482:11 159:7,13195:1 198:16202:21
previously (3) 68:2275:20 192:14
price (6) 4:16,17 41:756:20 136:9 138:8
primary (1) 203:3principle (2) 110:23
148:23prior (3) 83:10 154:13
203:16private (1) 154:7privilege (3) 36:16
171:12 172:21privileged (1) 174:1probably (8) 5:13 29:6
121:15 147:18161:8 169:16,16203:15
problem (1) 32:11problems (1) 98:7procedure (1) 79:16procedures (2) 104:10
187:25proceedings (1)
173:18process (42) 16:9
17:12,18,21,2518:7,19 19:2221:15 22:9 26:7,830:2,3 38:24 45:2150:2 67:9,10 93:1,393:18 96:1,4 127:9127:10,20 128:24129:5 130:4 135:24167:2 173:12174:22 176:17,22182:3 186:1,3,4,23187:1
produce (3) 13:2459:11 202:6
produced (6) 17:2327:15 175:19201:11,11,12
product (1) 172:15production (2) 172:12
172:18Professional (1) 80:19profit (16) 9:8,18
10:15 12:11 13:913:18 40:7 149:4,6149:25 158:22159:10,11 160:17198:16 202:6
profitability (7) 25:1888:6 148:20 149:20159:19 192:22202:9
profitable (2) 148:19152:11
profits (33) 8:16,18,2410:6 11:2,2 13:3,1013:10,14,16 56:2486:15 97:18,2298:1,2,3,10 139:1,7139:9,10 145:19149:1,18 150:9159:17 160:20192:15 193:1198:20 199:9
promise (4) 78:6,9,1778:21
proper (2) 120:16130:21
properly (3) 39:12,14172:21
proposal (4) 27:1729:12 32:6 59:25
proposals (4) 2:4,632:4,17
propose (2) 136:4138:3
proposed (3) 1:6,759:13
proposing (1) 137:9prospective (1) 86:6protect (1) 98:10protecting (1) 58:12protracted (1) 99:13proven (2) 104:22
123:8provide (8) 54:11 57:7
61:14 75:10,2598:8 109:25 120:22
provided (6) 31:1759:24 98:6 110:12168:21 169:22
provides (1) 16:23providing (11) 59:5
61:7 70:24 71:375:23 92:11 107:23117:5,10 120:10,10
provision (1) 146:11provisions (1) 128:5psychometric (1)
202:24punch (1) 73:18
purchase (5) 93:19127:20,22 128:2,4
purchased (1) 57:5purchaser (3) 8:17
11:7 151:21purchaser's (1) 13:3purchasing (2) 126:21
154:14purely (2) 72:20 100:9purpose (1) 8:18purposes (3) 16:20
35:4 99:2Pursuant (1) 124:7pursue (1) 23:24put (52) 1:11,13 2:6
3:7 6:9,10,19 29:740:4 41:25 49:356:9,19 58:11,1460:8 62:4 64:1866:10 83:9 84:190:6 101:12 102:4103:4,5 106:10107:7 111:10 116:6120:6 121:11,13132:3,22,23,25140:19 152:2,4,22153:16 159:20161:15 166:7 176:5177:13 178:10180:2 185:11188:19 190:24
putting (6) 100:22108:25 131:11146:8 185:3,11
p/e (2) 136:5 138:10P11D (1) 195:14P12 (1) 10:20
Q
qualified (1) 127:8quarter (1) 156:8querying (1) 113:15question (36) 25:25
26:16 30:1 45:1847:19 59:17 71:1976:10 83:3 88:299:20 100:22116:24 125:15,16126:24 137:11138:24 139:13146:14 164:19165:1,4 175:7189:22 190:2,3,14191:2 194:4,14,23197:17 199:25202:2,20
questionable (1) 82:11questioned (2) 20:5
20:17questions (11) 15:2
117:19 144:14154:4 155:17 174:3174:13 199:23201:24,25 206:5
queue (1) 61:19quicker (1) 160:13quickly (1) 188:3quite (20) 2:18 3:9
40:19 62:9,11,1374:16 91:7 96:21105:15,23 106:15119:9 146:13168:25 174:8176:18 182:23184:21 196:7
R
Raines (42) 16:10,1216:22 17:13,16,2418:1,7 22:13,13
41:6 50:2 62:2163:15,18 64:2269:25 70:2,3 96:2,3102:12 105:4 106:4109:19 117:1 129:7129:8,19 130:1,8130:10 131:3,13,20132:14 133:24137:11 140:17141:8 163:5 166:7
Raines's (8) 17:13 22:962:7,13,14 103:14106:7 131:24
raised (4) 19:5 92:18153:15 179:14
raises (2) 154:4179:13
raising (4) 48:3 152:14154:3 170:18
range (1) 10:25rate (30) 59:7 60:2,19
61:6,6,9,10 71:1971:20,22 72:3,2072:21 87:1,2,20,2287:23,24 88:191:11 108:13 109:6115:8 141:25 142:2142:3,3 197:13,16
rates (2) 53:19 54:24ratified (1) 191:14ratify (1) 26:22ratifying (1) 26:18rationale (2) 59:24
72:20RDC (1) 133:19reach (1) 156:3reached (2) 93:18
169:2reaching (3) 45:21
167:25 169:25read (19) 2:12 4:22
37:2 68:7,9,1091:19,20 99:4111:12,15 115:20115:25 117:17118:19 160:11164:3,3,5
reading (4) 89:5153:17 160:6190:25
reads (2) 8:13 92:20real (2) 138:9 186:20realising (1) 67:18reality (1) 82:4really (19) 38:20 48:8
48:15 75:2,2,2,290:13 118:24148:21 163:12166:3,15,16,20187:12,12 192:10196:10
realm (2) 38:15,16reason (14) 23:14
71:17,17 91:1,8,991:10 129:12138:12 139:2140:23 142:11163:9 191:17
reasonable (3) 32:479:6 179:6
reasonably (2) 2:17199:5
reasons (5) 54:7 72:1990:17 177:20179:23
rebuttal (1) 177:5recall (12) 5:13 6:21
7:1 68:5 69:1 95:22132:14 133:23140:25 152:17
166:13 167:11receipt (1) 19:14receive (1) 172:3received (7) 32:2
117:18 150:2,5157:9 174:15 175:9
reckoning (1) 148:4recognise (9) 10:20,23
14:8 77:13,14,16145:3,4 181:25
recollect (3) 69:11,20102:7
recollection (9) 21:7,822:4 23:9 76:983:17 95:24 168:1168:7
recommend (1) 81:22record (2) 3:8 16:25recorded (2) 99:25
184:9recording (1) 96:11records (1) 44:17recover (2) 91:13,13recovered (1) 47:9recruitment (3) 37:23
37:25 38:2rectify (1) 26:17red (2) 74:19,24reduce (1) 89:11reducing (3) 86:9,12
86:20ref (1) 113:14refer (5) 155:1 156:7
156:11 189:4,11reference (11) 7:25
27:10 44:4 52:1352:17 93:5,12133:15 135:4 140:1182:1
referring (5) 65:5141:19 153:6173:25 184:9
refers (1) 65:25reflect (1) 99:15refunding (1) 122:20refused (1) 187:5regard (4) 112:18
115:11 136:19153:13
regarding (8) 19:2565:11 78:9 84:2098:22 121:23122:13 155:5
regards (2) 101:10102:9
region (3) 69:17136:24 141:22
regional (3) 69:14 76:1133:19
regions (1) 75:25registered (2) 34:16
125:10regulations (2) 104:6
106:11Rehman (5) 1:9,14
104:20 119:9123:10
relate (1) 115:14related (3) 104:4
106:8,11relating (9) 45:6 49:25
104:4 110:7 115:12144:20 152:16171:25 179:11
relation (33) 2:4 13:1327:8 49:24 66:2466:25 67:1,1368:21 70:7 74:7104:10 105:23106:17 109:1
111:10 116:22139:22 145:13,23146:15 172:11,17172:20,21 174:10174:19 175:21200:22,25 201:2,20204:21
relationship (1)185:23
relative (1) 29:23relatively (1) 81:20released (1) 204:13relevant (2) 154:12
155:18relied (1) 171:13rely (1) 124:2relying (1) 127:14remain (1) 196:8remaining (1) 21:16remains (1) 12:11remember (54) 4:10
4:20 6:22 18:2319:1,3,4,4 22:1425:14 27:6 30:2041:19 42:3,5 45:845:10,17 49:17,1849:19 74:22 75:1486:1 103:14 104:3110:13 112:25118:2 123:3 125:19134:22 136:22137:4 138:17142:11,11,12153:14 156:9164:20 167:3180:21 189:20193:6,6,6,22194:21,22 195:11195:12 196:3202:11
remembering (1)178:8
remind (1) 102:21remove (4) 181:18,23
182:14 185:5removed (3) 152:9
184:19 185:1removing (1) 184:3remuneration (4) 9:10
9:11 193:8 200:10repayable (1) 14:3repayment (1) 12:17repeat (5) 25:25 29:11
65:4 83:3 116:24replace (1) 124:8replacing (2) 46:25
125:11replies (1) 37:18reply (1) 32:10report (9) 16:12 17:23
19:14 79:25 82:7164:5,7 168:22,23
reported (1) 182:16reporting (3) 65:21
76:3 135:16reports (9) 79:24 80:1
80:1 81:12,13164:5 183:24 201:5201:19
representing (1) 33:7represents (2) 172:14
172:15request (5) 66:6 111:3
111:25 159:19200:10
requested (2) 30:4110:11
requesting (1) 111:20require (2) 114:18
115:1
215November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
required (5) 61:1366:8 111:5 119:4151:21
requires (2) 26:9148:21
rescue (1) 57:4reserves (1) 198:21resident (2) 78:6,16resolution (1) 111:23resolved (4) 39:12,14
39:15 40:22respect (5) 21:22 35:6
51:15 74:2 172:18respectively (1) 63:1respond (2) 94:6 101:7responded (3) 99:21
101:8 193:19respondent's (1) 6:15responding (2) 93:21
94:1response (5) 21:12
63:11 113:14188:20 195:1
responses (1) 154:3responsibility (2) 46:8
52:5responsible (8) 69:5
70:3,10 125:23,24146:18 164:22182:22
rest (2) 75:8 146:22result (5) 40:17 106:1
111:25 167:12176:11
resulted (2) 97:3,13results (1) 19:15retail (14) 16:14 48:13
70:10,12 75:22109:18 140:9,15,22142:1 156:20163:24 164:21180:1
retailer (5) 125:17126:2,3,4 202:23
retailer‐type (1)125:22
retailing (3) 125:24140:8 164:1
retained (1) 198:21retrospective (1)
158:16returned (3) 46:3,4
141:11Revenue (2) 120:2
195:13reverse (2) 9:19 37:3review (12) 28:11
31:21 32:6 45:1072:10,12 75:13,1976:5,16 110:14113:20
reviewed (2) 114:7174:25
reviews (2) 26:24 32:1revised (3) 1:6,7 2:6rewarded (2) 191:19
192:4rewarding (3) 161:10
192:11,20Re‐examination (2)
200:2 206:4re‐open (1) 164:10re‐reading (1) 196:22rid (5) 40:2 105:3
161:22,23 182:4ridden (1) 57:4right (123) 7:11,21
8:22 10:16,1913:18 16:5,1617:10,19 18:20
22:7,10,17 24:1426:8 29:13,15 34:134:23 36:22 39:2141:20 49:3 55:1157:24 58:7,11,2159:4 66:14 67:370:5 73:1 74:1676:3 77:13,16 78:483:22 86:23 87:187:15 88:16 90:691:7 92:16 96:1796:21 97:11,2198:11 100:17 103:8104:23 105:7,8106:15,22 107:12107:15 108:1109:15 112:4 114:9116:2 117:13,20118:20 120:21121:20 122:18124:23 125:3,6127:5,7 130:14,23131:6 132:22 134:1135:10,19 136:7138:21 139:14,21140:20 141:5142:20 147:8148:13 151:14,23152:7,25 157:9158:3 161:14 163:5163:6 167:16 171:9173:19 175:12180:9,24 181:21188:3,23 190:24193:10 194:8,18195:4,10 196:13197:15 198:2,22199:21 203:8
rightly (1) 161:15rights (1) 25:16right‐hand (1) 6:12rip (2) 73:23,25rise (9) 157:13,25
158:4,9,16 159:18190:11,20 191:11
rises (6) 157:7,9190:15 191:8192:19 197:12
role (10) 55:10 66:1966:25 70:7,13133:21 140:9,22156:17 159:25
roll (1) 134:23rolling (1) 31:25room/food (1) 62:24rough (1) 149:17roughly (1) 170:12round (2) 149:9,17Rowe (3) 109:19 117:1
163:2rules (1) 191:4rumour (1) 37:12run (7) 57:7 58:20
100:1 118:9 152:10161:7 170:11
running (8) 29:1957:12 72:1 89:1798:14 115:13149:22 161:11
rushed (1) 99:19Ryan (37) 5:20 8:2
10:9 14:19,24 37:537:8,18 38:3,19,2339:10 128:25 129:6129:16 130:9 131:2131:13 135:16,17136:22 137:1,9,11137:14,25 138:6139:17 140:17141:3 142:11,13
143:24 144:8 155:2166:7 182:23
Ryan's (2) 4:17 155:4
S
S (1) 113:14sacked (1) 168:24safe (1) 204:16safety (2) 105:14,19sake (1) 16:25salaries (18) 27:1,5,8
30:16,23 31:2053:19 54:24 109:21109:22 110:3116:17,20 117:5,7149:13,14 197:3
salary (51) 9:14,1526:24 28:2,10,1129:4,17 32:1,2342:4,11 45:10 60:575:13,18 76:5,16123:21 141:6,7142:15,18,20,21,23143:1,2,6,7,8,12,13143:20,22 144:2,20145:10 147:7 150:3150:5,22 156:5,11156:25 157:21191:8 192:19196:16 197:15200:10
sale (12) 11:16,17,2512:1 38:14,20 41:983:10 136:9,19145:1 204:6
sales (6) 9:8 11:1043:11,12,17,20
sample (1) 115:12sanctions (1) 103:13satisfied (1) 20:23Saturday (3) 47:23,23
90:11Saturdays (1) 43:23save (1) 185:21Savill (3) 109:19 134:2
134:3saw (4) 19:3 76:20
166:14 182:11saying (41) 21:3 31:3
35:13 38:3,23 44:448:6 55:22 68:970:20 72:14 87:1887:20 88:16 91:2592:9 94:1 97:2199:22 101:7 105:25106:16,19 109:22109:23,23 120:4130:20 140:11,14141:3 165:19,20175:19 178:6181:10,25 182:1,18187:20 192:1
says (60) 8:9,23 10:1210:15,18 11:912:19 13:2 20:1221:13 26:25 28:1730:10,14 32:3 34:334:8 52:9 54:2260:16 61:17 62:1763:11 66:5 68:2073:16,22 84:1786:5 88:4,7 89:1290:11 91:20 95:397:2 99:12 100:25101:4 114:17 118:5122:7 124:12 126:9130:12 134:10,14135:19 140:1145:14 147:11,19160:24,24,25
179:21 183:17186:8 189:13,15
scenario (2) 48:11153:22
scheme (14) 43:1544:10,11,19 45:4,645:16 46:3,18,2546:25 47:10 48:1549:1
scope (3) 80:5 85:17177:19
score (5) 78:13,1879:7 80:17 81:15
scoring (2) 78:21 79:1screw (2) 63:2,6scrubbed (1) 135:21Sean (5) 49:23 88:9
117:12 193:14,24searched (1) 59:18second (14) 8:1 66:1,4
85:8 90:21 91:2196:25 97:5,9132:18 134:22156:7 158:15188:10
secretary (1) 169:15section (1) 55:14securing (1) 80:22security (3) 72:10
194:8,12see (177) 2:4 6:12 7:6
7:10,14,18,21 8:98:11,15,20 9:5,169:19 10:2,6 11:2312:5,13 13:5,6,1213:22 14:4 15:916:10 19:9,20 20:120:7 21:19 22:124:4 27:2,20,2328:2,7,13,20 29:2231:22 32:8,1835:18 36:22 37:1638:7 42:1,16 44:1745:9,13,15 49:450:8,14,21 51:152:14,25 53:1,1261:23 62:3 64:6,966:1,11 67:1769:21 73:3,5,8,1373:17,20 75:1776:6 78:14,24 80:681:24 82:13 84:2185:1,2,7,18 86:1088:4,5,12,24 90:992:23 94:25 95:2297:1,8,19 98:16,1998:24 100:12,12101:14 102:20103:9,11 105:13110:23 111:8112:21 113:8,12,17113:22 114:24115:3 116:1,18118:4,14 119:1,9122:4 123:25 124:4124:11 126:9,21127:21 128:25129:23 131:19132:3,12 133:1134:10 135:9137:17 145:8,20146:23 147:4153:16,21 158:23158:25 159:5160:15 161:18163:1 171:21 174:7177:11 178:21,23179:2 185:11 187:6189:1,11,25 190:9190:11,24 191:13
191:24 194:1,9195:18 197:21,22198:17 200:14
seeing (2) 75:24 88:25seek (1) 124:2seeking (4) 38:5 76:5
89:9 198:2seeks (1) 61:20seen (23) 1:5 15:25
37:13 44:8 64:1569:14 76:20 77:1878:22,24,25 79:479:22 81:9 82:287:9 98:5 119:21154:25 160:19181:21 183:8190:18
select (1) 202:19selecting (1) 131:4selection (8) 18:19
128:24 129:5 130:4130:9 131:15137:13 140:17
self‐funding (4) 43:1443:15 47:1 48:10
sell (6) 40:5 77:8136:5 137:7,16138:3
seller (5) 145:13150:18,21,24199:17
selling (4) 11:8 38:1039:8 135:25
sells (1) 147:2send (4) 25:4 71:18
113:7 134:11sending (3) 24:10
32:11 134:18senior (3) 18:2 21:24
22:5sense (2) 14:14 130:8sensible (1) 2:17Sensitive (1) 63:24sent (10) 23:24 30:6
114:5,12 117:15140:14 157:14158:4 180:23 201:6
sentence (5) 27:21118:4 119:2 122:7140:6
sentiments (1) 32:16separate (1) 111:17September (17) 9:7,7
9:8 98:18 159:1,3,6159:10 160:16,17160:18 198:19200:9,14,18 201:16201:21
sequence (1) 5:16serious (12) 24:25
25:6,19 41:2264:18,19 105:15121:22 122:3,12,22179:7
seriously (5) 20:5,17105:22,25 106:19
serve (2) 127:22 128:2service (12) 72:4
111:2,3 142:8149:23 177:10178:14,15,16,21179:16,17
services (7) 16:2319:11 59:5 60:1861:7 108:14 109:6
set (15) 5:20 41:9 49:187:22 91:9 106:24110:6 152:20 156:8176:14,16 177:4181:6 190:17
203:15sets (2) 41:9 77:8setting (1) 141:7seven (2) 54:17
152:24severance (6) 145:12
197:22 198:12,24199:3,6
share (19) 12:1 13:1646:7 90:21 91:2192:2 94:5 97:2298:10 100:11,15,24101:5 102:1,2136:19 138:8 145:1147:2
shared (33) 37:7,838:2 40:5 77:9,2377:25 78:1 80:2081:11,16 83:1484:14,24 85:3,5,2186:22 88:7,19,2096:9,17 97:15152:2,11 182:5,15182:24,24 183:2,4183:15
shareholder (39) 23:523:7,10 24:24 25:325:8,9,16 34:635:10 46:16 51:2151:21,23 52:2,3,1552:18 58:13,1486:9,13,13,15,2186:23 89:24 97:2298:9 111:20 112:1112:2,7 128:20150:10 158:6189:16 193:1 199:7
shareholders (19)25:12 26:8 33:1433:15,16,23,2434:3,5,19 46:11,1252:5,9,13 124:3,7147:12 192:16
shareholders/A (1)23:8
shareholder's (1)179:20
shareholder/directo...111:4
shareholder/directo...118:12
shareholder/the (1)48:22
shareholding (14) 9:311:11 13:4,17 25:225:6 39:13 79:688:7,22 145:6149:16,18 192:17
shares (95) 4:16 5:175:17,21 11:5,10,1311:16,17,18,21,2512:4,7 14:23 15:1915:20 23:6 33:1933:20 34:17 38:638:11,14,20 40:3,640:14,23,25 41:7,957:5 77:8 79:8 80:380:10 83:9 85:1085:10,15,23 92:793:7,8,9,9,9,12,2094:12,14,18 95:1295:15 96:13 97:497:14,17,18 124:16127:16,25 128:8,14128:15,18 135:24135:25 136:4,21137:7,10,15,24139:16,17,17,24147:2,7 148:14,15148:16 150:12,17
150:21 151:3,20,25154:14 181:24183:16 202:4 204:3
sharing (1) 161:7sheet (4) 6:3 115:2
178:22 201:15Sheila (1) 196:24short (6) 49:9 81:19
102:24 155:25188:4 199:25
shorter (1) 54:13shortly (1) 96:10show (4) 13:21 21:22
96:6 201:7showed (6) 78:22
118:2 151:23154:25 155:8200:13
showing (5) 22:1590:14 142:12170:20 183:14
shown (10) 15:18124:4 152:21156:16 157:1159:24 197:18200:16,21 201:14
shows (2) 84:8 201:8shredded (1) 121:15shredding (1) 121:17sic (2) 108:4,5side (4) 64:15 84:6
146:9,24sight (1) 184:7sign (5) 101:10 154:18
154:23,23 204:2signatory (1) 21:2signature (2) 73:16
162:2signed (4) 73:15 87:24
147:16 176:8significant (1) 40:7significantly (2) 12:2
158:13silly (1) 1:12similar (6) 142:15,20
143:9,12 144:3190:23
Similarly (1) 108:21Simon (1) 134:21simplification (1)
185:4simply (8) 43:24 44:20
48:5 53:16 125:6138:25 178:4181:10
Singh (48) 123:24128:24 129:6,22130:5,20 131:7,12135:23 136:20137:7,16 138:9139:23 140:7141:10 142:17144:25 145:7,9147:16 148:11152:14 153:11154:1,13 156:16158:4,8 159:24162:10,18 166:2,10166:11,12 185:24188:9,25 189:16190:18 191:17192:11 193:7196:19 202:3,15203:21
Singh's (4) 141:6156:5 191:5 200:8
single (3) 65:23 82:11121:9
single‐handedly (1)161:3
216November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
sit (2) 65:19 140:25sitting (3) 12:23 72:15
168:1situation (8) 19:10
40:18 79:9 80:4,980:15 85:16 97:16
situations (3) 178:1,3178:5
six (10) 10:5 43:22,2443:25 53:23,2454:5 138:22 152:24161:8
sixth (2) 47:22,24size (1) 67:7skills (5) 61:13 127:11
140:8,15 203:9skip (3) 80:18 110:22
123:22Skipping (1) 155:19Slark (22) 27:4,7,15,19
28:6,22 32:1,2342:3,24 49:2255:23 56:20 58:961:11,12,17 70:1475:14 107:17117:12 197:5
slides (1) 76:2slightly (3) 2:6 25:24
198:7slot (2) 1:21,22slotted (1) 1:25small (1) 61:16snap (1) 144:17snip (5) 148:15,15
149:19 150:13,21SOG (62) 16:20 17:1,9
19:22 21:18 24:7,824:23 34:25 35:936:1 40:7 46:8 58:759:1,9 61:20 75:2476:24 77:5 79:686:9,20 94:11,1795:11 96:13 97:497:14,17 98:2199:1 111:4 112:7114:18 115:1 116:3116:8,9,10 118:12123:12 147:2150:19,24 151:10151:20 158:5162:21,24 165:10165:24 166:23167:1,13 181:18184:19,23 185:1,5185:14,24
SOG's (5) 38:9 124:9163:24 167:20172:4
SOG/you (1) 51:7sold (2) 137:19 145:6sole (6) 190:19,23
191:5,6,9 192:8solicitor (1) 96:23somebody (13) 9:1
11:8 55:1 57:8,1781:11 107:11 120:6120:15 123:14126:1 137:1 186:20
soon (1) 193:7sorry (36) 18:25 29:11
30:21 37:4 43:552:17 55:4 58:2365:4 66:3 72:2476:8 97:10 114:20115:20 122:4,15127:24 129:4 146:2162:3 165:4 173:15180:18,25 181:1184:24 189:6 190:2191:2 193:15,16
197:25 198:5,9200:16
sort (16) 2:25 9:1832:20 61:15 69:274:25 77:9 89:5120:17 144:25147:6,25 170:1175:21 188:20193:18
sorts (1) 105:7SOS (18) 16:14,20,21
17:4,8 70:11 80:580:11 85:17 107:8107:10,16,19,19,24108:5,8 109:8
sought (1) 197:7sound (1) 144:4sounded (1) 48:14sounds (2) 136:18
163:6South (1) 80:20speak (7) 24:13,15
63:3,7 67:20,23102:22
speaking (4) 7:8 39:1864:5 132:14
specialised (1) 19:11specific (3) 140:15
179:14 194:5specifically (4) 77:15
141:4 179:13191:10
Specsavers (46) 6:157:17 8:10,23 16:2116:22 17:2,5 19:1221:3,4,5 28:23 29:129:8 34:15,17,2435:1,2,10,23 36:940:2 42:22 48:1385:9 89:22 97:16105:10 111:23124:21,23 125:20126:11 127:2,18128:9 132:4 134:24148:23 152:16154:5 158:23 192:3193:3
spend (1) 204:2spends (2) 192:6
204:4spent (2) 2:9 168:20split (2) 82:12 150:9spoke (3) 26:25 33:4
69:13spoken (3) 69:10,18
135:23spring (1) 21:11staff (34) 23:25 24:16
27:1 28:10 42:4,2343:10 44:24 46:1947:6,13,14,17 48:348:7,18 53:1954:23 55:5 56:2274:6 75:19 76:6104:9,14 105:24110:2 116:17,20,22117:7 137:2 196:19197:3
stage (19) 6:8 21:1523:23 41:4,11,1541:21 62:4 94:1196:18 127:9 130:16130:17,19 136:10175:3,4 176:25202:23
stages (1) 167:2standard (1) 156:24standards (1) 203:16start (9) 4:12 16:8
39:22 50:4 54:11
94:7 135:24 165:23178:17
started (8) 31:2555:13 64:22 175:1175:10 176:7186:23 196:10
starting (1) 97:6starts (5) 12:10 73:5
100:2 103:9 198:15statement (40) 3:22
4:3 16:7 22:8 23:1327:11 49:14 59:699:18 103:21,24104:24 106:22117:24 123:23128:22 129:2 140:3151:14,16,17152:19 156:4,7160:24 161:16162:4,9 163:8169:19 188:10,19188:20 190:8193:12,18,22195:15 196:15205:1
statements (3) 181:16188:4 192:14
step (6) 18:10,1229:12 33:1 51:3162:19
stepped (1) 129:12steps (2) 26:6 99:16Steve (2) 7:23 8:1stone (1) 49:1stop (2) 93:14 94:7stopped (3) 39:16
48:24 118:23store (173) 4:15 5:18
22:20 23:14 25:2129:19 37:13 39:2140:4,13,18 41:442:22,24 43:2 44:144:17 46:12 48:2349:18 50:24 51:451:13,19 52:1,6,654:16 57:1,8,9,1257:14,17 58:4,6,858:11,13,20 60:360:20 63:16 65:2066:7,8,14 67:1568:2 69:12,22,2370:9,11,19 71:472:4,7,14,15,1973:8 76:14,25 77:677:10,20 78:10,1879:2 82:9,10,15,1682:17 83:5,6,784:24 85:3,21 86:886:20 87:3,12,1388:10,16 89:1,4,889:11,20 90:2291:2,16,22,25 92:192:5 93:14 94:4,896:7,8 98:7,14,15100:23 107:12,23108:5,9 109:7110:3 111:4,6,7112:1,4,13,14113:15 114:17,18114:18,22 115:1,1115:8,15,18,24116:3,5,8,9 118:10118:11 129:14,17130:15,23 136:3140:21,23 142:16142:22 143:5148:18,19 152:6,17152:23 154:13155:11,12 158:14158:15 159:19
160:9 161:2,7,11161:12 184:3187:17 191:22192:7,15,22 193:8204:4
stores (25) 16:24 61:861:21,25 65:2068:23 70:3 75:2,3,475:6 76:2 80:2181:18 88:1,3,5,1888:20 93:23 126:3134:24 152:8164:22 201:6
store's (1) 73:4story (1) 16:8straight (2) 43:24
136:13strategically (1) 88:19stray (1) 36:16stream (1) 90:17string (1) 68:14stripping (1) 139:10structure (18) 42:5,7
42:14,17,18,18,2043:2,10 44:5 47:447:20 65:21 78:998:22 99:15 125:20146:6
structured (2) 93:23175:21
structures (2) 42:2199:17
Stuart (95) 1:3,4,7,111:24 2:2 3:17,19,206:7,10,15,18 8:2112:18,22 14:1915:1,6 21:11 22:2125:24 33:18,2234:4,6,12,14,18,2335:13,15,17 36:2239:19 40:10 41:344:3 45:19 47:8,2549:6,11,12 52:1757:25 75:12 83:383:22,25 84:9,1187:18 91:24 103:1103:2 111:15 130:2134:4 146:22 148:6149:16 155:20,22156:2,3 161:22,24171:14,19,24 172:6172:23 173:1,2,3,4173:5,19 174:2,5174:15 175:13,14181:25 186:22188:7 191:2 198:2198:3,6,9 202:3204:9 206:3
stuff (1) 65:22subclauses (1) 178:17subject (10) 2:5 25:13
50:12 63:24 84:1890:2 93:3 112:23124:9 125:3
submissions (3) 2:102:13,21
submitted (1) 115:14subordinates (1) 166:6subsequent (1) 171:21subsidiary (8) 17:10
29:2 34:11,21 35:352:23 53:10 111:24
substantial (4) 48:1749:16 122:9 160:22
substitute (1) 1:19successful (7) 74:11
74:15 75:11 93:24140:21,22 203:7
successfully (1) 191:21suddenly (1) 187:15
suffered (1) 181:7sufficient (3) 80:5
85:17 153:20suggest (19) 15:7,16
15:21 39:25 56:1880:13 83:13,1587:10 94:10 96:5129:21,24 130:7131:11 150:16151:22 168:8 198:3
suggested (3) 5:2332:24 42:3
suggesting (19) 4:1411:15 25:1 35:1684:13 87:15 92:992:10 105:1,22112:16,17 120:3156:24 157:3,16169:6 177:4 178:19
suggestion (9) 28:1028:18 29:15 30:1144:6 81:5,6 164:21177:23
suitable (1) 140:24summarised (2)
123:13 161:20summary (4) 14:6 82:9
104:13,15sums (5) 104:20 119:9
122:25 156:13192:2
Superstores (2) 16:2217:5
supervision (1) 166:17supplier (4) 105:9,9,25
119:16suppliers (3) 105:10
105:12 106:19support (16) 16:24
60:9 61:8,15 70:1170:12 74:20 75:1075:22 87:25 110:5118:11 150:22166:11,12 180:12
supporting (5) 8:1960:20 75:22 76:2153:19
suppose (4) 10:16109:12 141:3189:22
supposed (1) 120:25sure (22) 1:17 26:16
33:24 35:5 51:1458:15 62:13 69:571:7 75:11 108:24128:21 140:3 143:2146:12 160:1167:11 177:25186:18 197:9,15203:4
surely (7) 64:24 79:1086:12 107:16108:25 117:7166:19
survey (1) 182:10Susannah (4) 75:17,20
75:21 76:13suspect (1) 134:14suspected (1) 119:5suspend (1) 58:1suspended (18) 20:9
22:23 23:17,1925:21 36:4,4,8,1036:11 46:5,2350:25 51:7 57:3,2290:2,4
suspension (2) 7:11139:3
SV (1) 81:18Swarandeep (4) 78:5
125:21 126:12136:2
swiftly (4) 63:22151:14 161:14167:16
sympathy (1) 122:9system (3) 78:21 79:2
79:3
T
tab (6) 188:4,5,10193:11,11,16
tabs (1) 4:1take (36) 6:2 9:4 27:24
35:11 43:22,2447:2 49:7 50:1851:3 52:14 54:555:19 59:20 78:1681:2 86:24 96:8100:11,24 102:1114:20 117:22132:7 133:17 138:6138:22 155:23159:11 162:8,15171:23 175:13,14177:8 199:2
taken (18) 20:4,1622:19 23:2 26:631:16 33:12 44:845:9 50:4 58:1473:1 95:2 96:6 97:198:1 100:19 160:14
takes (3) 148:18,24161:10
talk (5) 131:18 155:2176:22 182:12195:17
talked (1) 65:18talking (19) 28:25
40:23 48:3 51:1561:9,10 69:2586:14 93:25 101:8102:3 108:7 118:17142:21 143:17149:9 151:12 155:2165:15
talks (1) 186:25TAPS (1) 74:23target (1) 44:13task (1) 56:15tasked (3) 27:4,9 96:7tasks (1) 121:16tax (5) 13:21,24
119:24 188:14195:23
taxation (1) 159:11taxes (1) 120:24team (33) 8:2 10:9
14:22 15:11 18:1838:1 43:12 44:2559:5 60:4 70:1172:17,17,18,2277:24,25 78:179:25 89:22 164:15171:4,6,8 175:2176:22 177:2 182:6182:7,15,16,22183:15
teams (2) 57:18 75:23technically (3) 84:24
85:3,21telephone (1) 22:16telephoned (2) 4:19
15:21tell (5) 77:4 79:21
113:3 136:17176:10
telling (2) 30:25 70:14template (4) 77:16,18
78:24,25
temporary (2) 88:19118:10
ten (3) 159:1,4 187:14term (3) 81:19 118:16
151:21terminal (2) 12:8,19terminate (2) 178:24
180:5terms (17) 36:11 54:8
60:8 74:8 75:1 76:2110:14 131:15149:9,17 178:11185:6 193:3 200:9200:21,24 202:24
Tesco (1) 178:9test (1) 202:24testing (2) 162:12
202:24tests (1) 184:7thank (14) 2:3 14:18
41:2 84:10 146:21199:22 201:24202:1 203:17 204:7204:10,12,17205:11
Thanks (1) 32:15theft (1) 122:19thefts (1) 139:3thing (10) 1:11 7:8
12:21 38:16 39:1448:9 106:8,12136:23 192:12
things (34) 3:7 5:1923:22 25:18 40:1553:14 64:19 72:8106:2,2,3,7,8 107:5109:25 114:8116:23 120:11121:16 129:25145:2 149:10 150:1164:8,12 166:17178:10 180:1,4186:24 187:18,21188:2 203:10
think (85) 2:24,253:13,25 4:3 5:1310:15,18 11:313:25 16:6,25,2518:8 21:9 27:7,1129:11,23 36:1640:15 42:15 43:746:1 63:18 65:1867:17 71:17 72:477:21 84:1 90:193:21 98:13 99:1299:18 100:17 106:3106:14 107:21110:2,4 116:14117:20 119:18120:19 123:21125:8 127:7 139:10141:12 147:24153:5 154:20 157:4157:15 158:3,3160:24 161:21,25165:1,2,7,11,11167:9,9 173:23174:1,5,12 175:7176:19 188:8191:11 193:2 195:1196:5,12,13 198:3200:1 203:24204:20
thinking (3) 157:22,23157:25
thinks (2) 61:21 71:15third (4) 19:9 68:19
183:20 193:18thorny (1) 4:13thought (17) 17:19
217November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
18:3 19:22 44:1764:13 85:20 92:18114:7,8 117:17157:20 168:17172:6 174:22175:18 189:19,21
thoughts (1) 102:8thousands (1) 48:17THP (2) 66:18 188:13threat (2) 25:17,18three (14) 9:4,25 10:4
10:6 11:1,20 28:1638:11 138:10154:13 155:9168:20 176:19184:1
threshold (1) 147:22Thursday (1) 1:20ticket (1) 109:14tie (1) 10:8time (100) 2:16 3:1
4:8,23 12:24 14:322:19,21 23:2,926:2,4,6,18 29:2030:1 31:7 34:2438:12,21,23 39:339:20,21 40:142:12,21 44:1245:3,4 46:11 48:1449:4 54:12,13,1559:21 60:15 63:2164:3 65:3,7 67:2067:23 68:5 69:8,1169:22 70:8 71:8,2576:23 77:5 80:1581:9 83:16 84:1588:14 90:3 94:2298:21 99:15,24108:6,9 129:9130:1,18 131:14132:14,17 134:17137:10,18,19138:20 142:1145:18 146:4,4152:16 158:10159:15 163:1164:20 165:24169:1,8,17 172:10174:24 176:18183:10 189:15192:7 196:5 198:11199:9 201:22 204:2
times (8) 9:25 10:1,111:1 138:10 148:5148:7,9
timetable (2) 1:6,7today (4) 37:9 78:23
183:14 204:22told (12) 11:4 35:6
39:16 41:16,1751:9 69:15 116:25122:16 143:9 154:9196:5
tomorrow (3) 204:19205:8,11
top (12) 8:11,22 32:1237:18 53:4 63:1164:6 68:15 75:797:10 116:21134:14
topic (4) 89:13 132:16132:17 155:21
toss‐up (1) 2:25total (3) 11:10 81:15
146:20totalling (2) 101:1
147:3trading (3) 78:5 111:6
149:23train (2) 5:20 109:14
trainee (1) 197:14transactions (1) 190:4transcript (3) 3:24 4:9
15:18transfer (22) 8:2 9:2
12:3 14:22 15:1137:9 38:1 124:15124:24 125:8127:15 128:7,14,15135:18 136:7,21139:18 182:6,16183:2,3
transferee (3) 124:21127:19 128:10
transferred (3) 80:10128:9,18
transparency (1)106:10
transparent (1) 104:13transpire (2) 123:6
138:21transpired (6) 121:24
122:14 123:7,8,9123:19
travel (3) 60:5 109:13116:16
treat (1) 74:2treated (1) 74:3treating (1) 104:8treatment (1) 104:14trial (2) 6:11 166:19tribunal (3) 166:25
173:18,20tribunals (1) 180:2tried (4) 59:12 187:2,3
187:25true (20) 15:23 60:9
61:22 80:16 121:24122:8,14 123:6,19139:4 150:20163:25 181:20184:21 185:4,25186:14,15 187:20187:22
truth (3) 61:20 77:4154:9
try (12) 1:22 24:1466:9 74:2,20114:10 174:5 187:5187:11,11 188:1203:12
trying (10) 14:1444:14 89:6 107:9107:13 143:3 164:9166:24 174:2 205:3
Tuesday (2) 2:11 95:1Turian (3) 50:8,10
64:1turmoil (1) 40:19turn (5) 74:20 148:17
170:6 200:5 201:14turnaround (2) 74:21
82:10turned (2) 54:2 146:11turning (1) 139:6turnover (18) 43:23
44:15,18,20,2347:10,12 48:19147:25 148:4,12,13149:1,25 159:6,16160:20 202:5
twelve (1) 159:4two (38) 9:15 10:1,25
23:24 24:15 26:2528:6,16 29:1031:16,18 40:1549:21 50:3 51:352:24 53:12 63:1972:16,21 82:1883:2 90:16 95:8
101:19,19 106:2117:10 155:14183:19 188:4 190:7192:10 196:14197:7,12 199:7202:17
two‐partner (3)158:15 161:12202:18
two‐person (1) 203:19type (7) 14:9,15 42:17
69:3 168:10 169:13169:15
typed (1) 176:14
U
UK (6) 16:23 17:6,7,1070:4,10
unaware (1) 63:20unbiased (5) 166:25
167:2,5,8,10uncover (1) 187:18underneath (1) 147:10understand (45) 9:23
15:6,6 19:8 20:2023:19 26:12 33:2139:1 40:9 43:1,1643:18 44:2,3,6 47:847:16,25 54:2056:4 57:7,20 59:1259:18 61:4 62:668:9 77:2 78:20,2195:5,11 103:16108:15,17 143:15146:2 156:14 163:7166:22 173:5182:18 189:16202:21
understanding (19)25:15,25 28:1635:5,19 36:10,1336:14 44:12 45:152:7 57:11 61:1498:15 174:14199:18,19 201:12201:21
understood (7) 45:446:6 92:17 94:22143:13 146:13157:24
unfettered (2) 125:6127:5
unfortunate (1) 63:19unfortunately (1) 66:6unrealistic (1) 21:15unreasonably (3)
125:2,9 126:20unusual (9) 67:18
136:12 138:19,20139:2,4,11 144:22150:6
use (9) 107:13 118:16122:11 124:6 126:6127:10 152:19,19167:24
uses (1) 106:18usual (2) 156:22 160:4usually (1) 119:4
V
validity (1) 197:8valuation (15) 8:14,16
8:24 9:1 10:11,2512:3 37:20 101:5137:20,22,23,24138:5 195:22
valuations (6) 100:11100:15,24 102:1,3137:19
value (17) 5:17 12:20
15:20 90:22,2391:22,23 92:3,694:5 137:10,16138:1 139:15,17195:18 203:2
valued (2) 136:22,24values (3) 73:17,20
139:17valuing (4) 5:21 9:3
11:5 14:23various (3) 83:4 110:7
183:10VAT (2) 146:7,16venture (54) 37:7,8
38:2 40:5,5 41:367:25 77:9,10,2377:25 78:1 80:2181:12,16 83:1484:15,25,25 85:4,485:6,9,22,22,2386:22 88:7,19,2088:21 96:9,1797:15 131:4 147:15148:21 150:10152:2,3,5,6,8,11,11154:17,21 182:6,24182:24 183:2,4,15202:17
ventures (1) 182:15version (1) 25:22view (15) 35:7 41:14
41:18,20,23 65:2,667:21,24 80:1481:2 82:20 140:8166:22 191:4
views (2) 172:15185:22
Visionplus (17) 29:1,833:8,10,13,1935:12 111:24151:13 165:12,12172:2 191:15,18,20192:5,7
volume (1) 200:3vote (1) 26:20voted (1) 203:21
W
wages (2) 51:15,19wait (2) 101:16 102:4waiting (3) 61:19
66:15 96:1waived (3) 118:13,16
118:18want (29) 2:21,24 7:12
12:9 24:14 36:2040:20 75:5 87:1991:23 92:13,2194:2,2,6,7 98:8,9100:10 101:25110:15 170:9172:23 175:13,14176:24 185:9 187:8204:8
wanted (8) 32:2435:20 56:9 158:8166:1,2 185:14197:9
wanting (2) 71:1872:21
wants (12) 7:4 29:1659:2,2,4 87:2193:23 133:15135:24 144:8150:24 185:14
warning (2) 103:25104:2
wasn't (34) 17:17 67:471:9 89:24 95:19103:15 104:22
105:16,23 106:2108:18 125:22140:23 141:25142:3,16 143:1,7145:1,23 148:16151:3 152:4 154:11158:7 159:15165:21 166:3,6168:19 180:17188:22 189:24198:2
way (42) 6:11 9:936:20 38:25 42:1543:16 58:17 60:1563:3,7 68:1 79:1,286:17 87:22 89:491:19 94:9 96:2096:21 97:9 107:7111:10 114:21118:4 145:8 153:16160:7 162:9 168:20169:1 170:17180:23 187:11188:20 190:18192:22 193:2195:22 198:8202:20 203:13
ways (1) 195:17Weaver (3) 62:6 63:10
63:10Wednesday (2) 1:21
2:15week (14) 1:15 2:8
19:3 43:17,1747:11,11 53:23,2453:24 148:2 161:9161:9 184:7
weekend (1) 3:3weekly (1) 47:4weeks (8) 28:6 53:24
69:15 148:5,7,9168:20 176:19
week's (1) 43:20weighted (4) 9:25 10:5
11:2 43:22weighting (2) 9:22,24went (12) 4:15 5:18
10:10 33:2 42:1648:19 54:4 141:10141:10 176:21179:14 197:6
weren't (12) 39:1340:23 67:10 99:2102:15 110:20114:8 121:11154:17 183:8200:21 201:14
Weymouth (1) 82:10We'll (1) 205:2whatsoever (3) 104:21
105:12 171:22whilst (7) 53:21 72:23
72:25 119:16,16120:25 121:2
whitewash (1) 153:24wholly (3) 139:2,4
186:9whopping (1) 142:22wide (1) 165:19window (1) 120:7wish (4) 16:2 66:9
74:3 157:6withheld (2) 125:2,9withhold (1) 126:20witness (21) 3:22 4:3
16:7 22:7 27:1149:13 59:6 117:23128:22 129:2 140:3151:16,17 156:7162:9 163:8 181:15
193:12,18,22195:15
wondered (1) 202:16word (6) 8:15 14:1
78:20 107:13112:18 151:19
wording (1) 113:16words (10) 91:20
122:11 124:6 160:7167:24 169:6,7,11176:13,16
work (37) 8:7 44:750:23 56:13 64:1566:6 72:13 100:14104:11,20 108:24112:11 119:10,25120:1,21 123:1,10123:13,14 133:13150:3,6 169:1182:25 183:3,21187:2,4,5,12 188:1191:20 192:21194:20,24 203:4
worked (13) 28:9 45:247:13 48:24 70:2577:24 178:9 180:22182:15,16,23 183:4202:22
workers (1) 104:11working (16) 12:4
27:23 28:22 43:1247:18 134:21140:21 148:22149:21 161:8,10168:20 170:17183:19 184:2202:10
works (16) 8:2 14:2416:22 43:16 62:2170:11 79:2,3,2586:17 119:22182:25 194:25196:7 202:7 204:5
worrying (1) 65:20worse (1) 43:3worth (9) 9:5 11:19,22
54:17 92:8 121:8138:14 149:17150:8
wouldn't (15) 23:1529:9 38:17 46:367:14 89:15 108:25113:10 119:13133:12 144:12,12144:17 186:25196:10
write (2) 32:13 87:8writes (3) 27:19 28:7
90:8writing (7) 3:8 10:20
37:5 62:6 71:1175:17 170:15
written (12) 2:10 3:165:9 81:2 86:2595:25 103:25 104:2112:25 113:7177:15 195:24
wrong (6) 10:19116:11 119:16,17187:18 189:21
wrongdoing (1)120:17
wrote (5) 81:10 82:23116:6 153:12,13
Y
year (34) 9:19 10:1,1,213:14 43:11,2144:13,22,23 48:2053:24,25 54:21
56:23,24 58:889:18 138:12 139:1139:2 148:4 150:13157:8 158:25 159:2159:4,7,12,13160:19,23 200:18201:1
years (17) 9:5,7 10:612:17 28:12,15,1668:1 87:2 121:7152:24,24 154:13155:10 178:9179:25 187:14
year's (3) 12:12160:17 198:16
yesterday (2) 137:18137:21
1
1 (28) 5:10 24:1,11,1824:22 25:20 30:1944:17,19,20,2147:11 73:8 78:5102:20 127:9 139:6148:4,7,9,13,17,18148:24 149:1,24202:5,23
1,000 (1) 65:201,200 (2) 47:21 147:21,288 (1) 197:251.02 (1) 102:231.193 (1) 159:61.2 (1) 139:61.218 (1) 159:710 (12) 2:11 5:5 43:13
43:13,14 44:1547:3 75:7 149:3188:4,6,10
10,000 (4) 53:19 54:2455:2,3
10.30 (4) 1:2 204:18205:11,13
100 (11) 79:8 80:385:15 94:18 95:1295:14 96:13 128:23143:15 168:7183:16
100,000 (6) 54:19138:14 139:7 149:4149:12,25
100,000‐ish (1) 150:9101 (4) 5:1 128:23
129:2,4102 (1) 5:4103 (3) 5:8 11:22
140:6104 (2) 5:10 141:6105 (1) 151:15107 (1) 152:131073 (1) 103:1011 (1) 193:2511.41 (1) 49:811.49 (1) 49:10110,000 (3) 53:25
56:23 58:8113 (2) 152:13 156:4114 (1) 160:14115 (3) 156:14,18
159:23116 (1) 156:14117 (1) 156:51176 (1) 132:51177 (1) 131:20118 (1) 162:41180 (1) 132:512 (4) 10:18,19 141:16
194:1112th (1) 141:14120 (1) 161:16120,000 (4) 58:8 97:25
218November 3, 2014 Day 8
Official Court Reporters +44 (0)20 3008 5900Opus 2 International transcripts@opus2.com
139:7,8121 (1) 134:151210 (3) 135:6,7,81217 (1) 141:14122 (2) 167:18 169:21123,500 (1) 11:22124 (3) 180:9 190:7,8125K (1) 10:21125,000 (2) 137:4,5126 (2) 181:17 190:8127 (1) 184:5128 (1) 184:17128812 (1) 198:1613 (4) 4:12,24 5:5
196:1813th (1) 66:713(a) (1) 194:141300 (2) 144:24 145:3132 (1) 181:414,700 (1) 101:114,781.25 (1) 100:714,942 (2) 189:3,18140,842 (1) 159:131482 (1) 112:201483 (1) 113:121484 (2) 114:1,241485 (1) 114:115 (10) 65:17 75:7
124:3,5,7,11,12127:14 178:22194:11
15‐day (1) 2:1515.1.1 (1) 126:19150 (1) 47:14150,000 (1) 53:2516 (13) 5:4 6:25 7:20
9:2 15:8 28:6 30:6124:17,19,25127:17,20 128:4
16K (1) 89:1716th (1) 5:2416,000 (2) 93:25,2516,225 (1) 159:1217 (6) 30:7 141:17
178:18,21,23 189:8177 (5) 52:15,18
125:19 126:8,9178 (1) 9:1918 (3) 193:11,11,1618,500 (2) 43:21,25180 (2) 52:20 53:2184 (1) 193:13186 (3) 124:5,12 194:8189 (1) 196:119 (5) 188:25 195:17
195:18 196:21197:7
19,700 (3) 147:20148:5,9
1995 (1) 78:5
2
2 (9) 11:3,21 47:1178:13 79:5,7 80:17102:21 126:10
2nd (2) 101:16 102:52,200 (1) 53:232,500 (1) 156:82,640 (1) 53:242.00 (1) 102:252.5 (2) 11:3,2120 (11) 4:15,24 5:18
39:17 44:16,24,2547:3 49:13 98:18195:14
20th (3) 4:18 10:1015:21
20,000 (2) 148:7 150:820,340 (1) 145:17200 (8) 61:3,4 88:11
107:18 108:1,2,4206:4
2000 (1) 71:252002 (5) 59:21 60:15
71:23 72:1 87:232004 (1) 9:82005 (1) 9:72006 (5) 9:7 10:13
44:17,21 198:192007 (31) 7:20 15:9
18:23 22:23,2323:2,23 24:2244:19,20 64:365:11 75:12 76:2484:13 85:21 96:24103:9,14 104:25105:5 136:22,24138:13 164:9,12165:24 183:11186:2 187:15198:13
2007/beginning (1)129:9
2008 (13) 112:22129:10 132:7 133:9135:8 137:23138:13 139:22162:19 164:17166:3,12 183:11
2008/2009 (1) 162:102009 (3) 164:17
166:12 184:15201 (1) 206:52010 (19) 157:17,18
157:19,22,25158:17 159:1,1,6159:10,15 160:5,18160:19 162:6163:13 191:23200:14,18
2011 (7) 158:17160:16,17 167:23200:9 201:16,21
2014 (1) 1:121 (1) 132:522 (10) 5:8 36:25 37:1
37:5 38:9,17 189:4189:7,8,9
22,252 (2) 13:5,1223 (1) 38:1025 (1) 5:827 (3) 20:9 22:23
25:2127/28 (1) 178:9275 (2) 6:22,23275A (1) 6:2028 (3) 63:22 75:17
84:3
3
3 (11) 1:1 5:4,10 11:311:21 47:11 53:4151:19 196:17206:2,3
3x (1) 136:53,085 (2) 43:25 44:13.1 (2) 52:19 53:63.1.1 (7) 34:1,2,10
52:22 53:9 112:12112:15
3.15 (1) 155:243.2 (1) 53:143.2.8 (2) 53:18 56:213.23 (1) 156:130 (6) 47:12,13 159:1
200:14,18 201:1630,000 (1) 198:2530,043 (1) 68:23300 (2) 72:4,14305 (1) 77:19
306‐24 (1) 197:1831 (5) 83:19 84:4,17
85:21 96:1032,500 (3) 141:23
142:25 143:2236 (3) 190:15,21 191:3360‐1 (1) 197:20365 (3) 158:18,19
200:16368 (4) 200:5,13,14,2137 (1) 191:16393 (2) 18:22,23395 (1) 201:14
4
4 (3) 5:1 47:11 181:34.15 (1) 84:164.30 (1) 205:1240 (1) 179:2540,000 (1) 198:21400 (5) 60:21 61:2,17
107:16 108:541.50 (1) 62:254132 (1) 180:244138 (2) 180:24 181:4418 (2) 24:1,34192 (4) 161:25 162:1
168:8 169:54199 (4) 162:2 168:9
169:5 177:942 (3) 141:13 144:9,1142,000 (10) 142:19
143:2,5,14,24144:1,22 145:10147:7 150:3
426 (1) 24:4433 (1) 27:2434 (1) 27:1944 (1) 9:1944,504 (2) 13:9,10440 (26) 53:21 55:1
56:20 59:7 60:7,1460:16,17,20 71:1971:22 72:14 87:187:13,20,21 88:1190:16,25 92:10108:6,13 116:16,21117:8,9
447 (2) 28:5 45:9448 (1) 45:1045,000‐ish (1) 142:5450 (2) 28:4 32:10457 (3) 36:22,22 37:246,000 (1) 56:25488 (1) 42:2
5
5 (16) 7:24,25 47:1173:4,10 75:4,7156:23,25 157:8,19159:18,21 160:4188:12 193:25
5,000 (1) 56:1050 (15) 9:3 11:11,12
13:8,12,17,1858:23 97:4,14145:6 147:2 148:7149:18 193:1
50,000 (5) 149:17,20150:12 157:5 202:9
50/50 (1) 150:9506 (3) 50:5 58:21,2452 (3) 53:24 148:5,954 (1) 73:8546 (2) 61:23 63:1155,000 (3) 11:25 136:4
138:3582 (2) 63:22,25588 (1) 64:4592 (1) 66:18
6
6 (2) 81:15 188:126,675 (1) 13:246,943 (1) 109:36,943.75 (1) 108:2260 (1) 138:1160K (2) 136:5 138:460,000 (7) 137:8,25
139:16 147:3,7149:19 150:12
60/40 (1) 82:12637 (1) 66:23643 (1) 68:3644 (2) 68:14,1565 (2) 4:4 16:665,000 (4) 54:10,14
138:15 150:765,120 (1) 108:18650 (1) 71:1066 (6) 4:5 16:8,17 22:8
103:24 104:2367 (1) 49:1269 (1) 73:7696 (3) 73:5,5,8
7
7 (3) 4:1 112:22188:12
7.15 (1) 30:77.24 (1) 64:117.40 (1) 6:257.42 (1) 15:1370,000 (1) 198:22700 (4) 72:25 73:3,10
73:18701 (1) 73:15710 (1) 75:12710‐5 (1) 84:3711 (3) 77:13 83:21
85:12712 (1) 84:4714 (2) 83:18 84:1672,500 (1) 9:1573 (2) 106:23 107:774 (2) 110:6,1176,000 (1) 198:2477.70 (1) 62:25
8
8 (2) 5:1 188:128,800 (2) 100:8 101:380K (1) 10:2180,000 (1) 137:4800 (1) 92:7802 (1) 90:6803 (3) 94:23,24,2582 (3) 11:2 110:22,2382‐and‐a‐bit (1) 11:2283 (1) 117:2185 (1) 117:2185,000 (1) 137:585,185 (1) 68:2287 (1) 49:12870 (2) 100:2,12872 (1) 101:989 (2) 117:23 118:4
9
9 (2) 80:19 132:49,000 (1) 196:79,469 (1) 196:29.2 (8) 177:10,19,19
178:4,17,22,24179:22
9.2.1 (2) 178:17 179:19.2.2 (1) 179:59.2.3 (1) 179:109.2.4 (1) 179:119.21‐9.24 (1) 178:3
90 (7) 118:24 119:1121:20 122:2,5159:17 160:20
91 (1) 9:19932 (1) 96:22934 (3) 96:18,20,2597 (1) 123:24974 (1) 12:1798 (1) 124:499 (2) 4:12,23
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