Coal-rnines [29 NoY., 1894.] Regulation Bill. 2855

pend it in any way they like. Is the head of the Government prepared to inquire into this matter 7 I think it is a scan­dalous shame that there should be such a waste of money as there is in this case. In the first place, the commissioners made a huge blunder in putting up the crushers, when they could have got all the stone they required from owners in the neigh­bourhood. The banisters engaged, Sir Julian Salomons, :M:r. Bruce Smith, :M:r. C. B. Stephen, and M.r. Want, do not attend the Supreme Court every day for nothing, and when the case is over I am sure that the fees paid to these barristers will be more than the value of i;he land.

:M:r. BRUNKER (East :M:aitland), Colo­nial Secretary [11·5], in reply.: I agree with many of the remarks made by the hon. member in regard to the expense that is very frequently incurred in conducting these lawsuits in the Supreme Court. I have no knowledge as to whether the action has been taken with the consent of the Premier. The Premier is not here at present; but I'will be glad to bring the matter under his notice to-morrow, so that during the week the hon. member may l1ave some explanation.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 11·6 p.m.

1.-egiz!atib e <!round!. Tl~ursday, 29 November, 1894-.

cOal-mines Itegulation Bill-Crown Lands Bill (sec0~d re~ding).

The PRESIDENT took the chair.

COAL-MINES REGULATION BILL. In Committee( consideration resumed from

28th November, 'llide page 2800) : Clause 77 (Entry on adjoining mine, &c., to

ascertain whether owner, &c., is encroaching).

The Hon. W. H. PIGOTT : I gave notice of my intention to move the rejec­tion of this clause, on . the ground that it was not in the English act, and upon the further ground that it appeared a some­what dangerous clause; but I have con­sulted the hon. member, Mr. A. Brown,

and although he agrees with me that, o~ the face of it, it appears a somewhat dangerous clause, he says it is in our pre­sent act, and he is not aware of any case in which any injury has resulted from it. In deference to his opinion, therefore, I will not offer any opposition to the claus~. It is necessary, however, that there should be an amendment.made in it. It says :

By the person making such affidavits believed to be encroached upon such first-mentioned mine or land, the Minister may, by writing under his hand, authorise the examiner or in­spector. The word " encroached " here should be " encroaching." There will be np such person as an examiner under this bill. ·This clanse has been taken from the old act, under which there was an examiner of coal-fields.

Amendments (by the Hon. W. H. PIGOTT) agreed to: ·

That the word "encroached" be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word " en­croaching."

That the words "examiner or " be omitted_ Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 78 (Interpretation of terms).

Amendment (by the Hon. A. BROWN)' proposed :

That the following interpretation be inserted: -"Large coal" means all coal passing over a ~-inch screen. ·

The Hon. J. MACINTOSH : I think that there ought to be a definition in re­gard to the screen. There ought to be· a definite standard for the whole colony, and the angle of the screen should be pre­scribed.

Amendment agreed to. The Hon. J. M. CREED : I think we

ought to make some further provision with regard to inspectors' certificates. It is provided in the liill that inspectors shall hold certificates of competency, and I am inclined to think that that will exclude everyone who has not a first-class certificate· from the board of examiners in New South \Vales. I am not sure whether we ought to deal with the matter in the interpreta­tion clause or recommit clause 19 for the purpose of amending it. As the bill stands, I think it would exclude persons holding: forceign certificates.

The H on. W. H. SUTTOR : I think that clause 18 provides for that!

The Hon. A. BROWN: The Under­Secretary for Mines is not referred to in

2856 Coal-mines [COUNCIL.] Regulation Bill.

the bill, so that no interpretation of the term is necessary. The interpretation is copied from the English act.

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : The under­secretary is referred to in clause 75. In England, there is an assistant under-secre­tary, and that is how the term has crept into the clause.

The Hon. A. BROWN : If " under-secre­tary" means the under-secretary, why do you want an interpretation of the term at all?

Amendments (the Hon. W. H. SUTTOR) agreed to:

That the words " and assistant under-secre­tary mean respectively," be omitted with a view to the insertion in their place of the word ''means ':

That the words "and assistant under-secre­tary" be omitted.

Amendment (the Hon. G. B. SIMPSON) proposed: · That the following interpretation be inserted : -'' 'Competent person' means, as used in general rule No. 25, an engine-rlriver who holds a cer­tificate of competency, or a certificate of service."

The Hon. A. BROWN : It is practi­cally trifling with the Committee to pro­pose this amendment. It has been dis­cussed so thoroughly ft·om time to time that it is not necessary to use many words in asking the Committee to r~ject the amendment. It is an attempt to introduce that which the Committee practically de­cided should form no part of the bill. It haH been discussed in all its phases. It was

. only last night that the Attorney-General endeavoured to insert the same thing in clause 50; but it was unanimously rejected by the Committee, with the exception of, I may say, the " heavenly twins," who sat alone in the division. The amendment is so absurd that I have no patience to argue it. I ask the Committee to reject it with­out any hesitation.

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : The ob­ject of the Government is to provide that the person whose duty it will be to look after the machinery, and so on, shall hold a certificate of competency or a certificate of service. If the Committee is opposed to the amendment I cannot help it. The Government think that the engine-driver should hold a certificate of competency or a certificate of service.

Amendment negatived; clause, as amended, agreed to.

[The Hon. A. Brown.

Postponed clause 1. (r) This act shall come into operation on the first clay of December, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-four (which date is in this act referred to as the commence­ment of this act), and may be cited as the Coal­mines Regulation Act, 1894.

(n) This act shall apply to mines of coal and mines of shale.

The Ron. W. H. SUTTOR: I propose to ask the Committee to substitute" January, 1895" for "December, 1894."

The Ron. J. HOSKINS : I do not think it is advisable to insert the word "Jan­uary," because, in the interval, there will not be sufficient time to frame the regula­tions, to appoint the board of examiners, and to set the machinery in motion for bringing the bill into full operation. I think that the regulations ought to be laid before both houses of Parliament before the bill is brought into operation, so that hon. members may have an opportunity of perusing them. I suggest to the Attorney­General that it would be far better not to bring the bill into operation till the 1st of March.

Amendments (the Ron. '\V. H. SUT'l'OR) agreed to:

That the word "December" be omitted with a view to the insertion in its place of the word "March."

That the word ''four" be omitted with a view to the insertion in its place of the word ''five."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (the Ron. W. H. SunoR) agreed to:

Tha.t the following stand as schedule I of the bill:-

Proceeding8 of Board for Examinations. l. The board shall meet for the despatch of

business, and shall from time to time make such regulations with respect to the summoning, notice, place, management, and adjournment of such meetings, and generally with respect to the transaction and management of business, includ­ing the quorum at meetings of the board, as they think fit, subject to the following conditions :-

(a) An extraordinary meeting may be held at any time on the written requisition of three members of the board addressed to the chairman.

(b) The quorum to be fixed by the board shall consist of not less than three members.

(c) Every question shall be decided by a ma­jority of votes of the-members present and voting on that question.

(d) The names of the members present as well as those voting upon each question shall be recorded.

(e) No business shall be transacted unless notice in writing of such business has been sent to every member of the board seven days at least before the meeting.

Coal-rnines [29 Nov., 1894.] Regulation Bill. 2857

2. The board shall from time to time appoint some person as chairman and one other· person

. to be vice-chairman. 3. If at any meeting the chairman is not

present at the time appointed for holding the same the vice-chairman shall be chairman of meeting; and if nPither the chairman nor the vice-chairman shall be present, then the mem­bers present shall choose some one of their num· ber to be chairman of such meeting.

4. In case of an equality of votes at any meet­ing, the chairman for the time being of such meeting shall have a second or casting vote.

5. The appointment of an examiner may be made by a minute of the board signed by the chairman.

6. The bmt1·d shall keep minutes of their pro­coedings, which may be inspected or copied by the Minister or any person authorised by him to mspect or copy the same,

ScHEDULE II. Goal-mines Regulation Act of 1894.-Fonn of

Return. This form to be correctly filled np by owner,

agent, or manager, and sent to the inspector of the district, on behalf of the Minister, on or before th.e twenty-first January every year.

Quantity of Mineral wrought during the year.

~Iineral wrought.

Coal (round) Coal (small) Shale-oil shale

l Number of statute I' Value. tons wrought.

The Hon. W. H. PIGOTT: It wili be seen that in this schedule a distinction is made between round· coal and small coal. Throughout the bill we have been careful to provide that only large coal shall be dealt with, and therefore no return of small coal can be made. I move :

That the word "round" be omitted.

The Hon. H. 0. DANGAR: I do not see the object of omitting the word. It is true that the bill deals with large coal as the marketable commodity produced; but a large quantity of small coal is obtained in getting the round coal, and, as the re­turn is only for statistical purposes, I see no objection to including both descriptions of the mineral. '

The Hon. vV. H. PIGOTT : The object of the amendment is to make the schedule harmonise with the alterations we have made in the bill ! .

The Hon. A. BROWN : If it is left an open question a return in regard to all coal

must be sent, and the bill deals only with large co:tl. I would suggest that the word ''large" be substituted for the word "round," so as to bring it in harmony with the bill.

The Hon. W. H. PIGOTT: I am will­ing that the amendment should be altered in that direction. ' Amendment amended and agreed to.

The Hon. W. H. PIGOTT : As a con­sequential amendment I move:

That the words "coal small" he omitted.

The Hon. F. T. HUMPHERY: It appears to me that the return will be im­perfect unless it discloses the quantity of coal sold.

The Hon. A. BROWN: It is the number of tons wrought, not sold!

The Hon. F. T. HUMPHERY : The object is to ascertain the value of the coal. The word "sold" should be substituted for the word " wrought." You could not pos­sibly ascertain the weight of the accumu­lation of small coal. The return will be imperfect unless it shows the quantity of small coal sent from the mines.

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON: I suggest that it would be wise for the reason given by the hon. member, Mr. Humphery, to allow the words to remain. It is desir­able to get the returns of the quantity wrought.

The Hon. F. T. HmiPHEHY :You cannot ascertain the quantity wrought, but you can the quantity sold!

The Hon. H. 0. DANGAR: A very fair estimate can be given, if necessary, of the quantity of small- coal wrought from the quantity of large coal obtained.

The Hon. 0. G. HEYDON : I do not think there should be an insuperable diffi­culty about this. In the coal-mines I have visited there is a screen, and the coal is tipped over it. The small coal runs through into a truck, and the large coal goes over it into another truck. As soon as the outer truck of large coal is full it is wheeled off. The other truck under the screen remains nntil it is full of small coal. It certainly would not be an insuperable difficulty to find out what proportion of small coal cameupfromanyparticularmin~.

The Hon. A. BROWN: Under the existing act there is no difficulty whatever in obtaining these returns. In that act there is a schedule, under which these returns are made, but for some reason or

.,

2858 Goal-mines [COUNCIL.] Regulation Bill.

other the minerals are separated in the present bill. In the act the schedules says, " The quantity of coal and the value of coal raised." If the schedule had been drawn up on similar lines to those in the existing act there would be no difficulty.

Amendment agreed to. The Hon. H. C. DAN GAR : I wish to'

draw attention to the words "shale-oil shale." A large quantity of shale is used for gas-making purposes-not for the pur­pose of making oil at all, and although the shale used is of the same character, it will be somewhat misleading if the schedule is allowed to remain in its present form. They should make a distinction in the shale used for oil and the shale used for other purposes. I move :

That after the words " shale-oil shale" the words "shale used for other purposes" be inserted.

These words are in the schedule of the English act.

The Hon. H. E. KATER: I think the words in the schedule speak for themselves, and are perfectly comprehensive. "Shale" means sedimentarv rocks of various de­scriptions which have no oil or gas in them. Shale-oil shale is the shale from which shale-oil or gas can be extracted. If you include the word "shale" it will mean all sorts of rubbishy rocks known as shale; but for the purposes of getting gas it is useless.

The Hon. H. C. DANGAR : I am afraid the bon. member does not know exactly what he is talking about. As a matter of fact this shale is almost exactly of the same character. 'For the purposes of gas they use the best shale in the colony. I desire to distinguish between the shale used for the two purposes.

The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: I think the shale is all known as shale-oil shale, whether the oil be extracted for the pur­pose of sale or whether it be used for the purpose of generating gas. I never heard of shale being described as gas shale. It is oil-shale used for the purpose of manu­facturing gas. It is all oil-shale, and that is what they have to make a return of.

The Hon. vV. H. PIGOTT : The hon. and learned member, :Mr. Dangar, is quite right. The words "shale used for other purposes" are left out of the schedule to the bill, and they are included in the schedule of the English act.

fThe Han. A. Brown.

The Hon. H. C. DANGAR: To make the distinction complP-te we ought to pP.t, in the first place, the words "shale used for oil." As the hon. and· learned mem­ber, Mr. C. G. Heydon, says, the shale is all oil-shale whether it he used for the pro­duction of oil or for making gas. The ad­clition of a little oil-shale adds enormously to the gas-producing qualities of ordinary coal. It will be an interesting statistical return showing how much shale is used for gas, and how much is used for other pur­poses. lam afraid, judgingfrom. thelimitecl quantity which is kno~n to be in existence, and from the condition of the shale-oil mines, there will not be a very great return. That is no reason why we should not ascer­tain the quantity used for both purposes. If the Committee will permit me to with­draw my amendment for a moment, I will make more plain that the return should show the two purposes for which shale is used.

The Hon. A. BROWN : What would the hon. member do with regard to the large proportion of shale which is exported, the great bulk of which goes to Germany 1

The Hon. H. C. DA.NGAR: That is oil shale.

The Hon. A. BRowN : How can you dis­tinguish between the two 1 Hundreds of tons of this shale goes to Liverpool, Ham­burg, and all parts of the world !

The Hon. H. C. DANGAR : 'rhe hon. member must know that nearly every pound of shale that is sent away in ships is used for gas-making. ·

The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : The last suggestion of the hon. and learned member, Mr. Dangar, if adopted, would entirely alter the character of the return provided for in the schedule. It is to be a return o£ the quantity of minerals wrought during the year. Coal is used for gas-making, and for firing purposes ; but there is no distinction in the schedule as to the pur­pose to which it is devoted. The return in regard to shale is to he a return of the quantity of shale that is wrought, not o£ the quantity that is devoted to any par­ticular purpose.

The Hon. H. C. DANGAR : I want to incorporate that!

The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : It might be a good thing, but it would alter the character of the schedule. As regards the amendment first proposed, I am informed

Coal-rnines Regulation Bill. [29 Nov., 1894.] Crown Lands Bill. 2859

by the hon. member, Mr. Vickery, that it <mght not to be made. The bill says this act will apply to mines of coal and mines of shale. It does not say to mines of oil­shaleonly. The hon.·member, Mr. Vickery, says there are mines of valuable shale, used for making a very superior kind of bricks. There will therefore have to be returns from those mines.

The Hon. E. VICKERY: I think it is a pity that the word "oil-shale" was not introduced into the bill at the commence­ment. It would be a mistake to make any distinction, the shale to which the bill .applies being all of one character. There is a large quantity of shale mined and used for other purposes. I know a mine that turns out more shale for making bricks than all the oil-shale produced in the country. ·

The Hon. H. C. DANGAR : Where is it 1 The Hon. E. VICKERY: At Cook's

River. The act does not apply to any­thing but coal and shale. It is not in­tended to obtain returns from the brick­mines.

Amendment agreed to. The Hon. A. BROWN : I want to draw

attention to Part B of the schedule. I think one half of that ought to be omitted owing to the alterations which have been made in the bill. It refers to the number of splits, the quantity of cubic feet per minute, the length of the splits, the total quantity of fresh air, and so on. We have decided that an adequate amountof ventila­tion shall be provided, not any particular quantity of cubic feet per minute. The part of the schedule referring to splits ought to be omitted, because we have de­cided that mines shall not be divided into splits.

The l-Ion. U. G. HEYDON : The bill does 11ot say there shall not be splits. It is simply not compulsory !

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Motion (by the Hon. W. H. SuTTOR) proposed:

That the Chairman do now leave the chair and report the Bill with amendments.

The Hon. A. BROWN : May I ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council to have this bill immediately printed with all the amendments and circulated amongst hon. members 1 If that is not done the hon. member will be met with the asser-

tion that hon. members have not had time to consider the bill as amended. I would recommend him to have the bill printed and circulated.

Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill reported with amendments.

CROWN J~ANDS BILL. SECOND READI~G.

The Hon. G. B. SUiPSON rose to move: That this bill be now read the second time.

He said : I hope the House will agree with me in the expression of the opinion that this bill manifests an amount of thought and consideration and knowledge of the subject with which it deals, which has been almost unparalleled in connection with any other land bill that has been sub­mitted to Parliament. Nearly all the land bills which hitherto have been passed have more or less been failures, and although the objects of those who have previously introduced measures dealing with the public lands of the colony have been very laud­able objects, and although the desire of the introducers ·was to promote settlement in the country and to deal with the lands of the country for the general benefit and advanta-ge of the people, the objects and desires which existed have not been accom­plished. The present bill, I think, pro­poses to deal with the whole question upon a very fair and satisfactory basis­fair and satisfactory in relation to the in­terests of the whole people. The interests of the pastoral tenants, which, no doubt, are very important interests in this coun­try, have been carefully preserved; and although the Government feel that it is necessary to withdraw from the pas­toral leases lands which are required for the settlement of the people, every care has been taken that no injustice shall be done to the pastoral lessees, and that their interests, and so indirectly the interests of the country, should be as far as possible protected. In the first place, I propose to deal very shortly with the Crown lessees in the central division and the Crown lessees in the western division. Under the act of 1884, certain lessees in the central division provided that they had taken action neces­sary for them to take in their own inter­ests, were entitled to consideration in the shape of an extemion of their leases com­mensurate with the amount of the improve-

2860 Crown Lands Bill. [COUNCIL.] CTown Lands JJill.

ments, and the nature of the improve· ments, which they effected upon their leasehold property, and it was necessary for the Government a very short time ago to have a declaration of the law upon the point whether the improvements effected by the lessees before 1884 should be taken into consideration, by the land boards in the first instance, and the Minister after­wards, in dealing with the matter. As hon. members know, the Supreme Court decided the other day, upholding the deci­sion of the Land Court that the improve­ments effected prior to 1884 were to be taken into consideration in determining the rights of the Crown lessees to an ex­tension proportionate to the value and the extent of the improvements made by them. I should point out to the House that the Government in asking for the decision of the Supreme Court upon this question were not actuated by the remotest desire to cur­tail or cut down the rights of the lessees, but wished to have the law definitely de­clared. The matter was submitted to me after the decision of the Land Court had been given. It was a very important ele­ment to be considered in framing the Land Bill. The question was submitted to me by the Secretary for Lands as to whether the matter was one that was open to argu­ment, and which ought to be argued before the Supreme Court. The opinion which I gave was that the matter was fairly open to argument, and that it was desirable that the opinion of the Supreme Court should be definitely ascertained. Now, the Go­vernment found no fault with that deci­sion. Neither did they find any fault with the previous decision of the Supreme Court which dealt with the question as to whether the proclamation of the late Secretary for Lands under, I think, the act of 1884 cut down or curtailed or did away with the rights of the lessees to an extension under the act of 1889. An opinion had been given, I believe, by the late Attorney-General, Mr. Barton, to the effect as far as I remember, that the pro­clamation did curtail and cut down certain rights. The Secretary for Lands did not adopt that opinion, so it was desirable that the opinion of the Supreme Court should be obtained. The way being cleared, the court haYing decided that the effect of the proclamation under the act of 1884 was not to take away from the Crown lessees

[The Han. G. B. Simpson.

the rights which they possess under the act of 1889 one difficulty was removed. The Government knew what course they should take in their judgment in respect to this matter of the extension of the leases. Then the other question which also was decided by the Supreme Court got rid of another difficulty. The way being pre­pared, the present Secretary for Lands considered in dealing with the central and the western ·leases, what was right and best to be done in the interests of the public generally, as he himself expressed it in the speech which he delivered upon the motion to introduce the bill. In that speech, delivered on the 13th September, 1894, he expressly said that his desire was, as far as he could, to uphold exist­ing rights, and to avoid anything in the nature of repudiation. The result was that this bill as submitted to the Assembly, so far as the central leases were concerned, was practically t!Jis : That the Minister was to have the right, as it was required for the settlement of the people upon the land, to withdraw from the central leases from time to time such portions of those leases as he considered necessary, not ex­ceeding at any one time a certain propor­tion of the run, and the bill as it is now submitted to this House provides that as far as the central leases are concerned the Minister is to have the right to withdraw after three months' notice in the Gazette such portions of land from lease for the purposes of settlement as he thinks should he withdrawn; that not more than half the leasehold is to be withdrawn, and the withdrawal of the maximum quantity is to­take place at once or by a series of with­drawals of not less than one-quarter of the area. Under the act of 1884, as hon. members know, the runs were divided into two parts-the resumed area and the lease­hold area--and the resumed area was open to selection, but the leasehold area was not. That was a division not founded u•~on any sensible rule. It was simply a divi;ion by the Minister in this way: "This half of the run is the resumed area, and is open to free selection; that half is the leasehold area, and is not open to free selection." The consequence might be, probably was, that in a great many cases the resumed area was, perhaps, not the best half for­agricultural settlement, and, on the other­hand, the leasehold area was not so good,

Crown Lands Bill. [29 Nov., 1894.] Crown Lands Bill. - 2861

perhaps, for pastoral purposes as the hal£ that was taken away from the lessee. Under this bill there is to be a gradual withdrawal, or at one time, i£ necessary, a total withdrawal, of a portion of the land, not being more than half nor less than one-fourth of the area. If a portion of a lease is withdrawn for the purpose of settlement, the lessee is to get a corre­sponding advantage. Under the act of 1884 he got no advantage. Under this bill it is proposed that he shall get a~ advan­tage. For instance, if half the run is with­drawn, he will get an extension of his lease ; if a lesser portion of his run is with­drawn he will get a proportionate exten­sion of his lease, and the area which is withdrawn he will be entitled to hold under a preferential occupation license until the land is required. For example. If the area of the run is 20,000 acres, and one-half is resumed, the lessee will be entitled to a pre­ferential occupation of the land. Certainly he will only holcf that land until it is re­quired for settlement, but he will have the advantage of holding it, as the synopsis which has been circulated shows:

One special advantage claimed for the provi­sions of this clause over any scheme of general division of leaseholds is that lessees will be re­quired to part with a portion of their holdings only when an actual public necessity has arisen, and the Crown will not be called upon to oust one tenant until, it might be said, the second one has come on the field. Apart from this, only such land need be taken from the lessees as may be suitable for settlement, and the opportunity will be given of concentrating settlers in par­ticular localities where the conditions -are favour­able to their remaining permanently.

An instance is given in case A and an­other in case B. Passing on to the clause which deals with the occupation licenses

. in leasehold areas, clause 4 provides, as the synopsis shows :

All holders of extended central leases will have the privilege of holding their leaseholds under preferential occupation license on the ex­piration of their leases. This applies to leases extended under section 43 of the act of 1889, or extended under clause 3 of the bill, and repre­sents a liberal amendment of the provisions of section 43 referred to, which gives the lessee no preferential right to remain in occupation after his extended lease has expired.

The Governor will have the power of refusing renewal of any such preferential occupation licenses on three months' notice; but the licensee will have tenant-right in his improvements. On lessees whose leases may not be extended under section 43 of the act of 1889 (or who may with­draw their right to extension) the privilege of a

preferential occupation license has already been conferred by that section, as read with the Declaratory Act of 1889, 57 Victoria, No. 27.

I find that in respect to the central lessees the bill really makes no attempt to abridge their rights except when a necessity for an abridgment o£ their rights arises.

The Hon. H. C. DANGAR : The lessees have no power to oppose or withstand the alleged necessity !

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : No. The Minister may if, for the purpose o£ settle­ment, he thinks it is necessary, withdraw a certain portion of the lease, and then the lessee gets certain corresponding advan­tages. In the western division a pastoral lessee may have a portion of his run with­drawn ; but it is provided that the land cannot be withdrawn from the lease until it is required for settlement-almost town or country settlements, or what may be termed urban settlements-and no land can be taken away which is situated over 10 miles from the boundary of a town, and then in such cases the lessee will be compensated according to the principles which apply to the central leases. When the bill was introduced into the Assem­bly it provided for the extension of the pastoral leases in the western diYision for another seven years; but that provision, I understand, has been struck out, so that no provision is made for any exten­sion of the pastoral leases. It is provided, however, that where any portion o£ a,

run is withdrawn the lessee will get simi­lar compensation to that which will be awarded to pastoral lessees in the central division. I do not think it is necessary to say anything more in respect of the pastoral lessees in the central and western divisions. The synopsis shows clearlywhat the provisions of the bill are, and I sub­mit that they are founded upon fairness and justness. It is absolutely necessary from time to time to withdraw a portion o£ land from. these leases. It is provided that in the .central division the withdrawal may be gradual, but is not to exceed more than one-hal£ of the lease, and a minimum is mentioned. In the western division land can be withdrawn if it is required for settle­ment, and the land withdrawn must be within 10 miles of a town. The position of the pastoral lessee is one with which I think nobody can find fault. The pastoral lessees in either division have no desire I

2862 Crown Lands Bill. [COUNCIL.] Crown Lands Bill.

understand to oppose settlement. If they desire to oppose settlement that desire can­not be met bv the Government, whose wish is to ad vane~ the interests of the general community, favouring neither one class nor the other. Passing from those leases I want to shortly deal with that portion of the bill which refers to a class of tenure created for the :first time. I refer to what is spoken of in the bill as homestead selec­tions. Up to the present time no such tenur:e is known, and it is very desirable that some provision should be made for homestead selections. The bill provides that homestead selections may only be taken up in certain localities which have been classified with regard to the require­ments of the people who are likely to take up the land, and that classification will be a proper one. If a homestead selec­tion is required for certain purposes, it is of no use to mark oft a portion of land that is absolutely unfit for the purpose to which it is intended to be applied hy the homestead selector. Under the bill there will be a classification for homestead selec­tions, and for leases for grazing purposes, and for other purposes. Homestead selec­tions can only be taken up after survey, and practically, although the existing right of ordinary conditional purchase before sur­vey is not taken away, the probability is that if thfl bill is passed, there will be very little of what is called free selection before survey. Certain localities will be set apart for certain purposes ; surveys will be made, and values will be fixed on the lands. Suppo~e a homestead selec­tor wants a portion of land in a certain locality. He takes up a measured por­tion at a certain value, and he has im­posed upon him -very strict conditions of residence, and, practically, any system of blackmailing which has existed, so we understand, in different portions of the colony will be put an end to, because, not only must the residential co:p.ditions be complied with as far as homestead selec­tions are concerned, bnt in respect of con­ditional purchases for the future the con­ditions of residence will be very much stricter than they are at present, and the residence on every conditional purchase will be ten years instead of only five years. Any system under which people can select land and blackmail the squatter, or any one else, will be put an end to. The object

[The Hon. G. B. Sirrzpson.

of the bill is to promote the bona fide settle­ment of the people on the lands of the colony.· Homestead selections are dealt with in clauses 9 to 15. I do not intend to go into the details of the provisions; but I wish to point out that there may be homestead selections coupled with the con­dition of residence. \Vhere an absolute residential qualification is necessary a cer­tain rent will have to be. paid for the first five years; within the first eighteen months a dwelling-house worth £20 has to be erected and afterwards maintained ; the value of any improvements which may be on the land will be payable in four annual instalments, with 4 per cent. interest; half a year's rent, with the whole or one-third of the survey fee, according to the selector's option, must be deposited when the land is applied for ; after the first five years a grant will issue without payment of any purchase-money, and on the issue of the grant the land will be subject to a per­petual annual payment of £210s. for every £100. Where a homestead selection is taken up without personal residence other obligations are cast upon the selector. The rent for the first :five years will be 3Q- per cent. ; the survey fee must be paid in one sum at the time of application ; a home­stead must be erected, not of the value of £20, as is required where the condition of residence is imposed, but of the value of £100, and the selector must have under cultivation one-tenth of the area within three years, and one-fifth during the fourth and fifth years. There are other provi­sions which apply to homestead selections, whether residential or otherwise. The bill provides that a conditional purchaser may, if he likes, convert his conditional purchase into a homestead selection.

The Hon. J. HosKINS : Has the Go­vernment considered how that provision will affect the land revenue 1

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : Yes. The provision will give very great relief to a large class who cannot pay, as they are required to pay, the money which is due on their selections .. It does not interfere with the rights of any one. The settler, instead of becoming a free selector, will be, in name, at all events, a leaseholder ; he will have to pay a certain portion of the rent for a certain time, and after the expiration of a certain number of years he will have perpetually to pay a small rent

Crown Lantis Bill. [29 Nov., 1894.]. C1·otun Lantis Bill. 2863

to the Crown. Practically it is a freehold, which a man may obtain on very easy terms, but actually lw will be called a leaseholder, although the amount of rent which he will have to pay will be com­paratively nominal. We know that in the old days in England, people always had to pay for many years, and under a great many old grants here people had to pay a certain sum. ·

The Han. C. G. HEYDON: But they had not to reside ! ·

The Han. G. B. SIMPSON : They had not to reside, but they had to pay a pepper­corn rent. My bon. friend, Mr. Hoskins, asks, have we considered what effect the provision will have on the land revenue~ We have considered that question, and I suppose it must be taken for granted that there will be a depreciation in the land revenue. We do not know and we cannot calcubte to what extent it will be depre­ciated. We do not know how many free selectors will take advantage of this pro­vision. It may be that the requirements, which are very strict, may not induce many selectors, to convert their conditional pur­chases into homestead selections; but even if they do, although there may be directly a falling off, there will be a corresponding advantage, and a great advantage too, to the country generally. You will settle on the public lands a large number of persons, who will have their own homes, and who will be most useful in the community. The mere monetary consideration, under certain circumstances, ought to be a secondary consideration.

The Han. J. HosKINS: You will lose 9d. an acre per year !

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : The main scope and object of the bill is settlement more than revenue, after all.

The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: And giving up revenue!

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : Probably we shall give up a certain amount of revenue. The time will come when the freeholders of t.he country will probably have to pay a certain proportion to the support of the Government. We are net dealing with that question now. I am giving a short summary of the provisions of the bill, and if bon. members do not .like the measure, let them reject the second >:eading. The Government will do what

they can to pass the bill. If the House rejects it, as they did certain portions of another bill, well and good. PasRing from the question of homestead selections, there are provisions in the bill for settlement leases for agriculture and grazing. The bill provides that leases of agricultural land up to 1,280 acres, and of grazing land up to 10,240 acres, maybe taken up. There are certain conditions in reference to those leases. The main conditions of the leaseR will be residence during the whole term ; fencing within the first five years; one-quarter of the area to be cleared of scrub during each seven years; the land to be kept clear of rabbits, noxious weeds, &c., according to regulations made by the Minister; no transfer or subletting-except with Minister's consent-unless by way of bona fide mortgage; and the ownerwillhave tenant-right in improvements on the expira­tion of the lease, and may under clause 24 take up 1,280acresas a homestead selection. 'Then there are to be improvement leases. Bon. members know there are portions of inferior land in the country which some people may take up, and they will be able to improve it and make something out of it. Provision is made for these improve­ment leases. The bill further goes on to provide for homestead grants out of leases. The Minister is to have power-and the hon. member, 1\fr. Hoskins, may object to this under the fear that revenue n1.ay pos­sibly be lost-to suspend the payment of instalments on conditional purchases.

The Hon. J. HosKINS : I shall object to that, certainly !

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : .And the suspension may be for any period not ex­ceeding one year at a time; but the selec­tor is to pay interest upon the unpaid balance of purchasemoneyduringthe period of suspension, and if he does not do so the interest will form an addition to the balance which he owes. It will be a con­dition of suspension that the conditional purchaser shall reside and be the holder bontl fide for his sole use and benefit. Should he cease to be resident, or should the land be transferred, suspension will cease. I have already referred to the provision with reference to the increase in the num­ber of years which a conditional purchaser, after the passing of the measure, will have to reside. He will have to reside ten years instead of five. There is to be residence

2864 Crown Lands Bill. . [COUNCIL.] Crown Lands Bill.

on additional conditional purchases. The object of these provisions dealing with an increased term of residence, and the resi­dence on conditional purchases, is to put a stop to the system of blackmailing which is said to have existed and to promote real, genuine settlement on the lands of the colony. Ron. members know that at pre­sent declarations have to be made, and these declarations I am sorry to say are often made, so I am informed, without very much consideration. These declarations are made, not upon oath, but under circum­stances which ought to be circumstances of very great solemnity. It is very undesir­able that declarations almost amounting to oaths, but not act.ually amounting to oaths, should be made when the circum­stances do not justify their being made. They are urmecessary, inasmuch as the land board makes inquiry as to the ful­filment of conditions. It seems to the Go­vernment that there is no necessity what­ever for a continuance of these declarations, and so the bill proposes to abolish them. The condition of fencing which attaches at present to all c-onditional purchases, except­ing under circumstances when the land board allow for an alteration of that con­dition, applies to all conditional purchases. The bill proposes that other improvements may take the place of fencing, but a subse­quent clause dealing with the matter pro­vides that no impounding may take place by a selector unless he has fenced his land, and I think, although I am not sure, that no action of trespass can be maintained by a selector unless he fences his land. That, again, is another provision which tends to show that the object of the Secre­tary for Lands is really to encourage bond fide and honest settlement, and not in any way to allow persons to take advantage of the law by taking up a selection for the purpose of harassing or hampering his neighbour in bringing actions or impound­ing stock. All applications have to be made in good faith, and a person can only take advantage-and this is a very impor­tant element in the bill-of the provisions of the measure once in a lifetime. That is a good provision, which, I suppose, will receive the assent of everybody. There is also a provision that a conditional pur­chaser who has paid off all he owes to the Government may take up an additional conditional purchase. The present law is

[The Hon. G. B. Simpson.

that a conditional purchaser who has ·not paid all the money he owes to the Go­vernment may, by virtue of his original purchase, take up an additional selection. But if he has paid up all his instalments, and owes the Government nothing at all, he cannot take up an additional selec­tion. That does not seem to be right or fair at all. In other words, so long as the law remains as it is, a man who pays his debts, and has performed all his condi­tions, is in a much worse condition than the original selector who has not performed these conditions, and has not paid the money he undertook to pay. There are to he special leases also. There are special leases for certain purposes, and the annual rental of these special leases will be £10. There are provisions made in the bill for the exchange of land. It is found that the present provision, dealing with the exchange and surrender of land, does not work very satisfactorily, and if the exten­ded powers proposed in the bill are given,· great advantage will result to the country. There are certain annual leases which are provided for, and they are mentioned in clause 4 7 of the bill. Provision relating to tenant-right in improvements is included in the bill. Some people are to have tenant­right under certain circumstances; but other people have not tenant-right given to them, which they at present do not pos­sess. I forgot to mention that there is to be a reappraisement at different times ·under certain circumstances. That is only fair and just. Coming back for a mo­ment to the pastoral lessees in the western division, or it may be in the central division--

The Ron. H. C. DANGAR: The bill does not provide for reappraisement in the central division!

The Ron. G. n. SIMPSON : It does in the western division.

The Ron. H. C. DAN GAR : Hear, hear! It ought to be in the central, too !

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON: There is to be a reappraisement at the request of the lessee, and if the lessee is paying now too much rent-it may not have been too much at one time-but if the value of his property has been depreciating for many years there is to be a reappraisement, and he has to pay that which is a fair and just rental. At present, too, if a portion of land is put up for sale, and is bought in, it

Crown Lands Bill. . [29 Nov., 1894.] J. Ashton and W. Ewen. 2865

has to be put up for sale a.gain. There is a provision to the effect that where a por­tion of land put up for sale is bought in anybody can go and purchase it, although it is not put up to auction a second time. It can be purchased really by private con­tract, a fair and proper value of course being put upon it. There are provisions which deal with references to the Land Ap­peal Court. These are matters of detail. There is one portion of the measure to which I should like to call attention, and it is this: At present all sorts of things have to be dealt with as occasion arises by the land boards. The result is a consider­able amount of trouble and expense. There is a provision in the bill that certain matters may be dealt with, not by the land board but by the chairman of the board. There can be no objection to that. Great care has been taken that matters which ought to be dealt with by the land board will have to remain to be dealt with by that board. Other matters which might as well be dealt with by the chairman, at less expense and more speedily, will be dealt with by the chairman. There are some provisions as to how a ballot is to be conducted in the case of conflicting appli­cations which are matters of detail. The main provisions of the bill are as I have shortly stated them to the House. I sub­mit them to the favourable consideration of the House, as being founded upon fair· ness to all portions of the community. The interests of everybody are fairly con· sidered and fairly conserved, and I do not think there can be any hesitation what­ever on the part of hon. members in re­ceiving with approval the bill, which, as I have said before, shows in itself every mark of great care, great consideration, and a desire to do that which is right and just to all portions of the community.

Question proposed.

Motion (Hon. H. E. KATER) proposed : That the debate be adjourned until Tuesday

next.

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON: This mat­ter has been before the Rouse for a fort­night.

The Hon. H. C. DANGAR: We have had other things to deal with !

The Hon. G. B. SIMPSON : When the · bill was read the first time, and the Vice­

President of the Executive Council moved

that the second reading stand an order of the day for that day week, the hon. mem­ber, Mr. Hoskins, suggested that the second reading should be taken in a fort­night, and that suggestion was accepted. I think that we might now proceed. The provisions of the bill are well understood by bon. members, and the Government are very anxious to know what their views are. We desire to finish the measure be­fore the adjournment if we can.

The Hon. H. E. KATER: I understood, when I spoke to the Representative of the Government on the matter, that he had no objection to the adjournment.

The Hon. E. WEBB: I hope the Go­vernment will accede to the request of the hon. member.

Motion agreed to ; debate adjourned. House adjourned at 6·27 p.m.

11egiziatHJe ~zzembl~. ThU1·sday, 29 November, 189ft..

Clerks, Darling Harbour Goods Shed-J. Ashton and W. Ewen-Cost of Cartage of Wool-Mail Delivery, Wya­long-Fisheries, Licensing, and Customs Acts-Civil Servants' Salaries-Government Architect's Depart­tnent-Fisheries Con1mission-'Voollomnooloo Land Resu1nptions-Land and Income Assesssment Bill (second reading)-Land Resumptions, Woolloomooloo Bay-Adjournment (Agreements Valid<tting Act Re· peal Bill-Personal Explanation).

Mr. SPEAKER took the chair.

CLERKS, DARLING HARBOUR GOODS SHED.

Mr. AFFLECK asked the CoLONIAL TREASURER,-(1.) How many clerks are employed at Darling Harbour goods shed 1 (2.) Have any extra hands been employed during the busy time, say for the past three months; if so, how many 1 (3.) What has been the number of hours per day the clerks have been on duty for the past three months 1 ( 4.) Have they received any extra remuneration for the busy time during the past three months 1

Mr. BRUNKER answered,-Thisshould be moved for in the shape of a return.

J. ASHTON AND W. EWEN. :M:r. ASHTON asked the MINISTER OF

. JusTICE,-In the case of John Ashton and William Ewen, convicted at Booligal,