Dr. Rhett H. James: An Oral History Interview

Dr. Rhett H. James: An Oral

History Interview

Conducted by Bonnie Lovell

Dallas, Texas December 21, 2002

Goals for Dallas Oral History Project Interview: 332

Transcribed by Krystel R. Manansal

Funded by a Grant from the Summerlee Foundation

Dallas Public Library 2003

Copyright 2003 by Dallas Public Library

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INTERVIEW WITH DR. H. RHETT JAMES December 21, 2002

Bonnie Lovell: This is Bonnie Lovell interviewing Dr. H. Rhett James for the

Dallas Public Library’s Oral History Project. The interview is

taking place December 21, 2002, at Dr. James’s Dallas

apartment. I am interviewing Dr. James to get his recollections

about Goals for Dallas. I want to start with a little bit of

biographical information about you. When and where were you

born?

Rhett James: Baltimore, Maryland, in 1928.

Bonnie Lovell: What month and day?

Rhett James: December 1.

Bonnie Lovell: You just had a birthday. What does the “H” stand for?

Rhett James: I don’t use it. (Chuckle)

Bonnie Lovell: You don’t even use H. Rhett?

Rhett James: It’s a name I have gotten rid of.

Bonnie Lovell: Okay, so you’re just Dr. Rhett James?

Rhett James: It’s Dr. H. Rhett James. I use the “H” initial.

Bonnie Lovell: But not the name.

Interview with James H. Rhett

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James: That’s right.

Lovell: So you won’t even tell me what the name is?

James: No, I don’t tell anybody. Social Security knows it; nobody else knows.

Lovell: Kind of like Harry S. Truman.

James: No. My mother had eight kids. I think when she got to me, she gave out.

(Chuckle)

Lovell: (Chuckle) Tell me about your mother and father.

James: My mother was a Texan. She taught school for a couple of years, then

she met my father and he never let her--she never went back to work--

she never taught anymore. She’s a Judkins from out of Houston.

Lovell: Spell the last name.

James: J-U-D-K-I-N-S--Judkins--out of Houston. She was a housewife until he

died in 1944; then she was a widow until she died in 1987.

Lovell: What did your father do?

James: My father was an educator-minister. He pastored several churches in

several cities. I was born in Baltimore, where he was head of the NRA.

He worked for NRA, which was the [President Franklin D.] Roosevelt

program--National

Recovery Administration--and pastored Leadenhall Baptist

Church there. Then he went to Kansas to Calvary Baptist [Church] in


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Topeka, and from there he went to Nashville. He pastored in Nashville.

Lovell: Baptist?

James: Baptist--all Baptist--and worked then at the college ministry at

Tennessee A&I [Agricultural and Industrial] State College.

Lovell: What was his name?

James: Samuel Horace James.

Lovell: And what was your mother’s first name?

James: Tannie--T-A-N-N-I-E--Etta.

Lovell: You said you had a lot of brothers and sisters.

James: Yes, there were five boys and one girl. Two boys are deceased; there are

three of us now.

Lovell: It sounds like he moved around a lot during your early years.

James: Yes, in my early years he did. He moved to San Antonio from

Nashville, and I call San Antonio home. We moved to San Antonio in

1940.

Lovell: Where did you go to school?

James: My grade school, I started in Topeka, Kansas, at elementary, and then

we went to Nashville. But most of my schooling was done in San

Antonio. I attended Phillis Wheatley High School, and from there I went

on to college.


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Lovell: Tell me about your college career.

James: I entered college at Virginia Union University in Richmond, Virginia,

where I received my bachelor’s degree in sociology and English. I went

back to San Antonio and taught for five years.

Lovell: What did you teach?

James: I taught elementary school and at San Antonio Junior College, and

while I was in San Antonio I was the first black to enroll at Our Lady of

the Lake College graduate school, where I got my master’s of education.

In 1955, I went back to Virginia and taught at Virginia Union and

worked on a master’s of divinity degree and stayed there three years and

came to Dallas in 1958 and immediately enrolled in Texas Christian

University graduate school of theology in Fort Worth. I was the first

black to get a master of theology degree there.

I came to Dallas to pastor New Hope Baptist Church, and I

became secretary of the fund to move Bishop College to Dallas [from

Marshall, Texas]. A couple of years we worked raising

money, and the college moved here in 1961, and

from 1961 to 1981, I taught at the school.

Lovell: At Bishop?

James: At Bishop--as associate professor of social science--and pastored too.


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UTA [University of Texas at Arlington] started a new program in urban

administration. I knew several of the college professors over there--we

had worked together on programs--urban programs--and they were

looking for mature people who had worked in life and wanted to come

in and do some graduate work. So they asked me to come and enroll in

the graduate program for a Ph.D. degree. That was in 1974--1975--and I

enrolled. I received my Ph.D. degree from UTA in 1981. I taught there

in 1980.

Lovell: What were you teaching?

James: The first black--I taught history at UTA in 1980. I taught at Austin

College in Sherman, and I have taught at the University of Texas in

Dallas--UTD. I taught race relations, and I taught, as of last year, at

Mountain View College--sociology--here in Dallas.

Lovell: And all this time, you were also a pastor at the New Hope...?

James: I retired from the pastorate in 1986.

Lovell: But you were there almost thirty years?

James: Yes, I stayed there twenty-nine years. I built a whole institution there--

over a million-dollar structure there--on 5002 South Central

Expressway. We were downtown, and then the highway bought us out

and I moved it south where I built that church. Then I went into the


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Dallas public schools in 1981 when Bishop closed. They asked me to

come in and work with what they called the programmatic remedies

program, helping kids who were having difficulty in catching up in their

reading and communication. I went there in 1981.

In 1984, I went into the learning centers program, which was a

new program they had started. In 1987, I went into personnel. I was the

staffing specialist for the public schools. Also, I was a teacher recruiter.

I traveled all over the United States and in other countries to find black

teachers and other teachers to come to Dallas. I did that from 1987 to

1994. In 1994, I became the assistant principal of

[Arthur] Kramer Elementary School and two other schools and the

Learning Center, and I retired from DISD [Dallas Independent School

District] in 1990.

Lovell: But you’re back at DISD?

James: Yes, I went back. I’m back doing some special work, yes.

Lovell: Is it part-time?

James: No, I’m full-time. At that time, they were recruiting persons who had

retired to come back and do some special things for the district--because

they were running short of teachers, especially in my field. And so two

years ago--I’m in my second year back, and it’ll probably be my last


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one...but I’ve made it so far. (Chuckle)

Lovell: When you say “your field,” your field sounds like it’s pretty...

James: It’s multiple, yes. I have a master’s in psychology and education. I have

a master’s of divinity in psychology and history, and a master’s of

theology in psychology. I did my Ph.D. in four fields: I did it in urban

administration, urban systems, urban affairs, and sociology. So I have;

I’ve been around.

Lovell: So when you say “your field,” it covers a lot of fields.

James: Very eclectic. (Chuckle)

Lovell: Were you in the military?

James: No. I missed the military. Thanks for that.

Lovell: You were married and have many children?

James: I married and have four children--four grown children. My oldest son

works in Arlington; he’s an executive for some company over there--I

forget the name of it. He finished SMU [Southern Methodist

University]. My second son is head of food purchasing for the Dallas

Independent School District.

Lovell: Oh, he followed in your footsteps.

James: My daughter is an attorney. She finished law school in Philadelphia--

Temple University Law School, where her husband also finished the


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same day. He received his medical degree from Temple. They have two

grown children. One finished college last year, and one is finishing

college this year. He’s going to be going to Hampton Institute--

Hampton University--he’ll be graduating in May. She’s an attorney, but

she also went back to school at the University of Chicago, and she’s

finishing up her Ph.D. degree at the University of Chicago.

Lovell: Lots of educators.

James: Yes. She wanted to go on and do that, so she did it. They’re very

successful. My youngest son is in television. He used to work as the

program director for NBC New York, program director for Miami,

Boston, where his wife was in Tufts Medical School, and he’s now in

Atlanta, Georgia, with CNN--as one of the directors for CNN.

Lovell: Impressive. Well, you must be proud of them.

James: He finished North Texas State [University] in television--TV. He did an

internship at Channel 4--where I was on television for eighteen years,

every other Sunday morning.

Lovell: Oh, they broadcast your church services?

James: Yes, I would go down there. It wasn’t the full service; it was just a

religious service that I did.

Lovell: You went down to the studio and did it?


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James: Yes. Took the choir, yes--for eighteen years.

Lovell: So you had to do a repeat of the service that you were going to do on

Sunday?

James: No, not the whole service. The choir would do two numbers, and I

would give a small, short message. It was taped on a Saturday, and

they’d run it Sunday morning.

Lovell: For the people that didn’t get to go to church. So you came to Dallas to

pastor the New Hope [Baptist] Church?

James: I came to Dallas to pastor New Hope and got involved in meeting the

community. I came here in 1958. In 1959, I ran for the school board and

became active in the NAACP [National Association for the

Advancement of Colored People], and I was head of the NAACP

Education Committee. At that time, we had a poll tax. I headed up the

poll-tax drives every year. I had a hundred or so deputies out of my

church out writing up people with poll tax--they had to pay for it--two

dollars. You had to pay to vote back in those days. And so we built up--

every year we made sure that there was a black presence at the polls.

Then I got involved in community affairs. I worked with John

Connally’s election. [Senator] Lyndon Johnson--I had met him on

several occasions--I was in Washington one time and he said, “I need


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your help to help get John--help John--that was his buddy, his protégé--

get elected as governor.” And so I took over the head of the John

Connally campaign in Dallas in 1961. In the meantime, [John F.]

Kennedy was running for election. I was a member of the Kennedy

executive committee here for Kennedy’s election in 1960, so I’ve been

very active in politics.

In 1964, when [President] Johnson ran for re-election, I was

assistant director of the state re-election committee for re-election of

Johnson. You can see my mementos of Lyndon Johnson there [pointing

to framed documents and photographs on the wall]. In those days, I

visited at his ranch on several occasions. On one occasion he had

African--ambassadors from around the world--visit his ranch, and I was

a part of that. I was a part of the White House reception for the

Emancipation Proclamation [centennial] celebration in 1963.

Lovell: That’s really exciting. What, in your observation, was Dallas like in the

early 1960s?

James: Dallas was as segregated as any city you could find. But Dallas has

always, I guess, had a kind of a peaceful acceptance of segregation.

Dallas never had an overt kind of antagonistic relationship. I have

analyzed it and I have given the reason why there was so much passivity


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in Dallas among blacks: Most of them came to Dallas from East Texas,

where they were very docile in their relationships with whites in East

Texas. They came to Dallas and made more money, and they saw no

reason to raise any more Cain because they were making more money

than they ever...they were still poor, but they were making more poor

money than they ever were in their life. (Chuckle) Plus Dallas was very

paternalistic--very paternalistic. I bought a home in 1963 in Shannon

Estates off Mockingbird [Lane] and Inwood [Road]. That portion was

being bought up by whites in University Park for their maids. They

bought their homes for them. In my block, there were three houses that

were....

Lovell: What street was that on?

James: 7042 Lark Lane. Lark Lane and Oriole Drive is where--my house is still

there now--I did a lot of renovations on it and expanded it until our son

graduated to an integrated high school--and I’ll tell you about that later--

but they had integrated the schools in our area and he had to come all

the way back--instead of going to Rusk Junior High, which was right at

the corner, he had to come all the way across town to Booker T.

Washington [High School].

Lovell: A long bus ride.


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James: Oh, it was a long bus ride--which I know about because I had it in San

Antonio.

Lovell: Oh, what year did they bus you in San Antonio?

James: They didn’t bus me; I had to ride a bus voluntarily to get to school--

voluntary bus to get to the black school. Wheatley High School was way

out on the east side. I lived over here on Pine and Houston streets. I had

to go all the way downtown, transfer a bus, and then come back past

Pine Street, and go all the way back out to where Wheatley was--every

morning.

Lovell: That’s because that was the only black high school?

James: Yes.

Lovell: And so, your son--what year would that have been that your son...?

James: 1961. Oh, yes. So, what I did, I took him out of the public school and

put him in Jesuit [College Preparatory School]. At that time, Jesuit was

just building up down on Inwood.

Lovell: It was closer, too.

James: Yes, it was closer, too. I ended up moving right behind Jesuit on Mill

Creek. In 1964, I moved to Mill Creek. And so, all my kids went to

private schools. Three boys went to Jesuit and my daughter went to

Ursuline [Academy]. She finished Ursuline with the highest honor in


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her class and was president of her class when she graduated.

Lovell: It’s interesting that they all went to private schools, but you’ve worked

so long with DISD.

James: Yes.

Lovell: But is that any comment on DISD?

James: It was a comment on DISD because DISD was very segregated. Its

leadership was very segregated and second- to third-class. I mean, I

have visited my kids--one day I went to a class at Booker T.

Washington, and I just stood outside the door, and these teachers were

just standing at the door just running their mouths talking, “Blah blah

blah blah blah,” and they were going around asking, “Do you

understand this?” They were just simple. Dialogue? Didn’t have any of

that. So, anyway, I was very adamant about it--plus the fact that in 1961,

I headed the committee to integrate the first Dallas schools. I went out--

my committee went out--and found the kids, got them vaccinated, took

the parents and had orientation sessions with them, and then took them

to the first school--[William B.] Travis [Elementary School] up on

McKinney [Avenue] was one of the schools.

Lovell: Was this the Committee of Seven?

James: No, no, no, no. This was the NAACP Education Committee--myself,


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Ann German, and Clarence Laws. We were the main ramrodders of that

operation, and we took them up there and got them in school--got all

seven of those first kids enrolled in 1961, and Dallas was anti-

integration of its schools. I never will forget when I came to Dallas after

I had been asked to take over the NAACP Education Committee, so I

got my committee to set up an appointment with Dr. [W. T.] White and

Dr. [Edwin L.] Rippy, who was chairman of the school board. We met

down in Dr. White’s office and he said--I never will forget this--Dr.

White looked at us, and he said, “Well, I know what you’re here for, but

I want you to know that we have good blacks in our schools,” and Dr.

Rippy said, “We treat the blacks just like it’s their schools. They have

their schools they run, and we have ours.” And I said, “So you’re

creating a dialectical situation here.” He said, “That’s exactly what

we’ve got: black education and white education.” And that’s what it

was. Dallas was divided, racewise. They didn’t care what the blacks

were teaching. They didn’t care--just so they kept quiet, peaceful. And

that’s one of the reasons I didn’t put my kids in public schools.

Lovell: If you were doing it now, do you feel that you would...

James: All this is history. Dallas schools have much more to be desired because

what has happened-- integration has resegregated, simply because they


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tried busing as a tool to integrate, and black people got...of course, now,

it didn’t work because kids at the end of the bus ride didn’t get an equal

education either. Some of the white teachers were putting the kids out in

hallways. We did a survey of two or three schools on the attitudes of the

white teachers, back in the 1960s, and there was abuse of black kids.

They gave them no incentives to raise their learning standards. It was

all--I call it “permissive paternalism”--and that’s the way the black kids

were treated, mainly, in “integrated” schools. They took the best black

teachers and integrated them into white schools. When the court said

they had to have a mixed faculty, that’s what happened. Very few black

kids were getting equal education. Those who got it got it for the same

reason that those of us who got it in my segregated school times. My

parents saw that I got an equal education, you see--in spite of the

system. I can remember the times at my dinner table--no one could sit at

my table for under an hour because it was going to be discussed what

you were going to do after you finished high school. Current events

were discussed at the table. That’s the way we had it--a roundtable at

our meals. Most of the blacks who went through that day of segregation-

-I call it “educational tyranny” and “social tyranny”--had to do the same

thing. They


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had to take you by the hand--just like Dr. White said. My parents would

not let me get involved in the subjugation of my thinking second-class.

My parents wouldn’t let me either. I never was second-class. I’ve

always thought I was as good as anybody else, and that’s the way we

were taught.

Lovell: Good for your parents.

James: All my kids, all my brothers, got graduate degrees. My oldest brother

finished Howard University, and my other brother is the president of a

university in Virginia, and another brother pastors a big church in

Chicago. We all got good educations. Same in my family--my

generation, my kids--every one of my kids got a good education. I saw

that they got it. Education was a door through which, at that time, was

the only thing you had to unlock.

You’re talking about--in my class I had last year at Mountain

View [College], we were discussing affirmative action. One girl spoke

up. She said, “Dr. James, I don’t understand why I have to pay the price

for what my parents did.” I said, “Young lady, have you ever thought

about the fact that if your father--your grandfather--had syphilis and he

transmitted it down to you--which it’s transmitted by genes, by

inheritance--you’re going pay the price for his wrongdoing? That’s all it


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is here. I’m paying the price for the inadequacies of your forefathers.

You are here because of your unearned opportunities. You haven’t

earned them. You’ve automatically been granted it. You got a grant by

color, and I got a disfranchisement by color.” And that’s what I said,

and she said, “Well, I never thought of it like that.”

My first class--my first day I taught at UTA--at that time--in

1971 is when I started at UTA--the school flag was the Confederate

flag, and the black students were adamant about it and they were

protesting it and demanding that it be taken down and a new flag

erected. I never will

forget my first day--I had a noon class--twelve o’clock--that

had eighty-six students in that class because they had given it all kinds

of publicity--“There’s a black professor coming here and we’re going to

see what he’s got to say about black history,” and all that--how he’s

going to teach black history. I may have involved--given them some

information about what blacks did historically, but to me it’s not “black

history.” The blacks have been left out--but when we talk about it, it’s

“black history.” It’s history; it’s just been left out of the books.

[Tape stopped.]

With Bishop, they started off what they call the exchange-


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professor program, and Dr. [Melvin J.] Banks, who was head of the

history department, interviewed me for the job. He said, “Well, you’re

the man we want to come. Your résumé and everything is just what we

want.” Well, you know, it was not difficult to be impressed when you

rise above the mediocrity back in those days. Anyway, I went in class

and all these kids looked at me, and I said, “Well, what have I walked

into here?” This woman in the rear of the room--I never will forget--tall,

stately redhead: “Dr. James!” I said, “Yes?” “What is it that these

Negroes over here are upset about? What is it that the Confederate flag,

they want it taken down?” I said, “Well, have you ever thought about

the fact that, if you drove down the highway doing 100 miles an hour

looking with your eyes glued to the rearview mirror, what do you think

would happen to you?” “I’d have a wreck.” I said, “That’s exactly what

the flag is--a wreck--the South trying to go forward looking backward.”

The class just went wild. They just applauded--the answer. The class

understood that.

Lovell: Now, this was your class at UT Arlington?

James: Yes. But here, this girl--this was just last year--she was sincere, but she

had never thought about the fact that...I said, “Blacks--you have to

understand this from the black point of view. Blacks were born into a


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system, which by law--1896, Plessy v. Ferguson--established Jim Crow

as law of the land. Another case in 1863 stated that the black man had

no rights. The Supreme Court established official segregation and Jim

Crow, which lasted until May 17, 1954 [Brown v. Board of Education of

Topeka]. That’s over sixty years--Jim Crow segregation was a way of

life in this country.”

I said, “Now, I want to see you take one child in your house and

put him in a separate room and say to that child over and over again,

‘You’re not good enough,’ and then take all the draperies down, take all

the furniture out and just give the bare necessities and see what that

child grows up to be and some of his accomplishments.” I said,

“Affirmative action started as a--Republicans really started it--as a

compromise over busing. That’s how it got started. It’s a means of--it’s

just a tool--to try to give an advantage to compensate for the

inadequacies of the past. That’s all it is--equal playing field. How are

we going to be equal and running if I’m starting back here and you way

up here starting? Now, that doesn’t make no sense anymore. No, that

didn’t work--and anybody who thinks like that is thinking institutional

racism because institutional racism says that blacks will never be equal

because they can’t be equal. They aren’t supposed to be, so


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consequently, why worry about them? But we’re not going to let them

get up and...but when you start off over here a little bit ahead--

somebody gives them an advantage, it’s racism in reverse.” I said,

“Well, how could it be racism in reverse when you’ve had all these 300

years ahead of me, you didn’t holler you were advantaged? I’ve never

heard a white person say, ‘I’m mad ‘cause I’m advantaged.’”

I was looking at the Donahue show the other night and they

were discussing this--why white men are mad. This man said it right

quick, “Man, what have you got to be mad about? You’ve had all the

advantages of 300 years. The color of your skin gives you advantages

that I’ll never have,” and that’s the truth--will never have--and will

never ever did. I developed a good friend in Dallas over a number of

years--the Cullum brothers, Charles and Robert--Charles Cullum was a

broadminded, Christian person. His brother, Robert, who died several

years ago, was different, but they were all [Dallas] Citizens Council

people. Well, the Citizens Council was not White Citizens Council. It

was just made up of the Dallas power structure. Everybody had to be an

executive of a company of at least 100 employees; there was a

membership requirement. I never will forget when I brought OIC

[Opportunities Industrialization Center] to Dallas in 1966, I had to have


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$100,000 in the bank account for startup expenses. Let me give you a

little background on that: Dallas did not want to admit it had poverty in

the 1960s. Johnson’s program, War on Poverty, was coming all over the

country. Leon Sullivan, who was a very good friend of mine, started the

OIC, Opportunities Industrialization Center. He called me one day and

he said, “Rhett, I need your help.” I said, “What is it?” He said, “I need

you to come up here right away and start training because I think I’m

going to get Dallas a grant.” I said, “When do you want me to come?”

He said, “Can you come up next Monday?” I said, “I can arrange it.” So

I made arrangements and flew up there that Monday and stayed there

two weeks and went through the leadership training program. About six

months later, I got this letter from the War on Poverty program

officially recognizing the grant of $275,000 for the Dallas OIC to get

started. But in order to do this, Dallas had to have a War on Poverty

committee, which it didn’t have and Judge [Lew] Sterrett said we ain’t

going to have because we don’t have no poverty: “Negroes in this town

ain’t poor.” You see how backward the thinking was.

Lovell: How did you counteract that?

James: I said, “Yes. They’re not poor because your eyes are poor visioned.”

Lovell: What did he say to that?


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James: He said, “Don’t look at me like I’m crazy.” I said, “You see what you

want to see, and you don’t see poor blacks. The poor blacks that are

poor don’t come to you begging with cups. They get out and work two

or three jobs and work at your homes and clean up your houses in

Highland Park and get peanuts for salary. You pay them peanut wages--

poor wages.”

Tape I, Side B.

Lovell: Okay, you were saying “peanut wages.”

James: Yes, I said, “No, you don’t have it because you don’t want to have it.

You don’t want to do anything in this”--and this was rabid segregation

Dallas was in. Dallas was rabid--I mean, rabid. They let you know what

they thought about you; they didn’t try to hide it.

Lovell: In what way? Do you have examples?

James: Yes, they had two or three blacks who went around here as their Uncle

Tom leaders.

Lovell: Like who?

James: E. C. Estell and I. B. Loud and the people at the [Dallas] Black

Chamber [of Commerce], and all those kind of people, had been doing it


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for years--doing their bidding. Well, then I came to town--I was a

radical. They were going to run me out of town. Anyway...so I called

Bob Cullum--he and I had become good friends because we had been

doing some things together. He was the type of person who liked to hear

the other side. You see, most whites at that time didn’t want to hear but

one side because they knew what side--it’s just like what’s happening

now in the Senate in Washington. The Republican Party knows it’s

wrong, but they don’t want to admit they’ve got race problems because

if they do, that means they’ve got to open up their doors and do the right

thing. That’s all that is. Like some had to get on television and say, “I’m

for affirmative action,” and the whole Republican Party came down on

his head: “Bang.” (Chuckle) Anyway, and so I said, “Well, I’m going to

handle this.” I called Bob Cullum. I said, “I need to talk to you right

away. Can I have an appointment about one o’clock tomorrow?” He

said, “Yes, I’ll be waiting for you.” I went...at that time they [Tom

Thumb] were out Inwood, down there by Love Field. I went up there to

see him. He said, “Rhett, what’s the problem? What’s the problem?” I

said, “Well, Dallas has got some problems that it doesn’t have to have.”

He says, “Like what?” I said, “Well, the War on Poverty is part of

Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty program--wants to come to Dallas


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with the OIC, and your Judge Sterrett, who thinks he owns this town

and y’all put him up here to do your bidding, says he ain’t going to have

none.” He says, “What do you want me to do?” I said, “I want him to

call the [Dallas County] Commissioners Court together and authorize an

official status of the War on Poverty to receive funds from

Washington.” He says, “I’ll take care of it.” It was taken care of the next

day. Sterrett calls me, “Well, Rhett, you got what you wanted.” I said, “I

got what I wanted? It wasn’t for me. This was for your community.” So

Bob took care of it. On another occasion, I was involved--I had brought

Roy Wilkins down--I brought him about four times when I was in there-

-because I was in and out of the NAACP--I went from committee

chairman to branch president. We had multiple branches--I was a

multiple branch chairman--and then back to the John F. Kennedy

Branch. See, I was in and out for fifteen years. So Bob calls me. He

says, “Rhett, do you think you can get us a private hearing with Roy?” I

said, “When do you want to have a hearing?” He was going to speak

that night. He says, “Yes. Can we meet him in the Republic Bank board

room?” I said, “I think I can arrange that.” I got up there a little early.

Mr.--I forget his name--the chairman of the board of the Republic Bank-

-said, “Rhett, I’m so glad to meet you. I’ve heard so much about you.” I


- 25 -

said, “I’ve heard a lot about you, too.” He said, “You know, it’s just

wonderful to see you doing some of the things you’re doing.” I said,

“Look here. Let me tell you something. If my skin was white as yours, I

would be where you are. So I’m not too glad to be where I am.”

Lovell: And what did he say?

James: He didn’t say anything. He just stared and opened his mouth. I said,

“My skin holds me back because we’re in a culture that condemns by

skin rather than credits by ability.” But what I’m saying, all these are

things that I have run into. I could tell you stories from now to eternity

on the incidents I’d get. I used to get a telephone call every night from

that old crazy woman--what is that old woman’s name?--that Ku Klux

Klan that used to come to the school board?

Lovell: Dixie Leber?

James: Yes, Dixie’s her name: “I’m going to run you out of town.” I said,

“Well, come on over here and run me, but I want you to know my

phone’s tapped by the FBI, so they’ll run you, too.” (Chuckle)

Lovell: But she kept calling?

James: Oh, all the time.

Lovell: Explain to me one thing about the John F. Kennedy Branch of the

NAACP. How were the branches divided?


- 26 -

James: They tried to be by communities. But they were also ended up being

divided by people who wanted to be associated with certain people

doing certain things. Some were more conservative than others.

Lovell: And what was the John F. Kennedy...?

James: I had the wildest branch. (Chuckle) We just didn’t see any blocks to do

something. We weren’t radicals. We were radicals to those--you know,

radicalism is always greased by the base. If you’re down here at zero,

one is radical, (chuckle) you know. So I always say, “That’s a relative

term y’all are using.” (Chuckle)

Lovell: How did the Kennedy assassination affect Dallas?

James: Oh, let me tell you about that. I was in Los Angeles in 1962. Kennedy

was killed in 1963, wasn’t he?

Lovell: 1963.

James: Yes, okay. I was in Los Angeles in August of 1962 at the Ambassador

Hotel as [Vice President] Lyndon Johnson’s personal representative to--

you know, he was head of the Equal Employment Opportunity

Commission--not the commission, the program. And so we all went--

there were about a thousand folk out there from all over the country.

The message was, certainly then around...this was...that Lyndon was not

going to be on the ticket next year, and several of us would do these


- 27 -

little midnight snack sessions--we would go out and get cheese and

crabs and compare them (chuckle) and we would talk these problems

through. But anyway, came to Dallas, and I was on the Welcome

Committee and they put a--one thing had happened--Erik Jonsson was

the shadow boss at that time. He was not Mayor, but he became Mayor

right after the assassination.

Lovell: Okay, he was the shadow...

James: When I say shadow, I mean, looked the father type. The people--the

Cullums and John Stemmons and those people--looked up to him

because he was such a successful man. He was a giant, and he had

gotten involved in the Citizens Council--and thank God he did because

he came at the time when his services and his attitudes were very much

important. Anyway, so he came to town, and he--Kennedy was coming

to Dallas. We were all prepared--well prepared--for that--looked

forward to that because it was determined that there would be no

incidents. And Dallas was--Dallas was most gracious.

Lovell: Where were you when you heard about it?

James: I was at the Apparel Mart [Trade Mart] luncheon waiting on him. We

had gone, left the airport, we went to the Apparel Mart and were sitting

up there waiting on his caravan. And, lord, [Sam] Bloom came up with


- 28 -

that face and said, “We just heard over the air that the man has been

assassinated.” You talking about pandemonium. There wasn’t physical

pandemonium but mental pandemonium. People got up all kinds of

ways distraught. Erik Jonsson got up to the microphone and said,

“Ladies and gentlemen, this is a time for us to maintain quietness and

calmness, and we’ll go through this crisis together and we know that

you’ll all go to church Sunday and pray.” And that’s what happened.

We went to church the next day--the church was packed--and the

message came during the service that [Lee Harvey] Oswald was shot.

So we knew then it was a lot of mess, and it was more than one bullet

that did it.

Lovell: What was your sermon that day?

James: I don’t even remember; I really don’t. Now, that’s the honest truth. I

don’t remember.

Lovell: Probably it was such a shocking time that you just were doing the best

you could to get through it.

James: Yes, it probably was. It was probably more of a redress of thoughts and

accumulations of messages of hope and keeping the faith that people

needed to hear because this country was in a mess.

Lovell: Did the assassination of Kennedy affect the African-American


- 29 -

community more...?

James: Oh, definitely. Just like [Franklin D.] Roosevelt. Yes, because Kennedy-

-and we had gone through all these times up to Kennedy and Kennedy

represented a new face, a new lift, a young...I’ve got pictures of

Kennedy somewhere around here.

Lovell: When we finish, I want to look at all your pictures.

James: Yes, but I think they’re in my car. I’ve got a picture with myself and

Kennedy on the stage at the auditorium when he was here. And Martin

Luther King. Oh, I forgot to tell you something about Martin Luther

King. At the same time in 1961--this is when I was really getting ready

to be run out of town. I had brought Martin Luther King to town for

voter registration.

Lovell: And what happened?

James: When the word got out, I got a call from E. C. Estell and I. B. Loud,

who were the downtown representatives, that I had better call that off. I

said, “Call what off?” “This meeting.” I said, “Are you ordering me to

call off the meeting?” “Yes, we’re telling you: You’ve got to call that

meeting off.” I said, “Well, I tell you. You go back and tell those who

told you”--because we all knew who called it off--“I’m not calling off

anything.”


- 30 -

Lovell: What happened?

James: Dr. King came to town, peaceful. The auditorium was

packed.

Lovell: What auditorium was it?

James: At the State Fair--the State Fair Auditorium. Packed, peaceful. Few of

the blacks showed up that we had invited. Just to make sure, we were

going to let the town know who they were--and they didn’t show up.

Loud nor Estell showed up.

Lovell: They did show up?

James: They didn’t show up. The boy who was pastor of Peoples Church--what

was the other boy’s name?

Lovell: Is that [Rev.] Wright?

James: S. M. Wright showed up because Wright was just a young protégé to

Estell at that time. Nobody thought Estell would be leaving so quickly,

and Wright would be ascending to Estell’s throne. (Chuckle) Anyway,

so we had that and it went off beautiful.

Lovell: Were any whites in the audience?

James: Oh, yes. Dallas was a peculiar town. I remember more integration going

on in Dallas before integration was supposed to take place than there is

now. I have been to homes in this town--in Highland Park and


- 31 -

University Park--just book clubs. Or we would have a group that would

meet and have picnics together. Oh, we did a lot of things in this town

and nobody said anything about it, wouldn’t do anything about it. The

guy who owned the theaters here--I can’t think of his name.

Lovell: Was it Hoblitzelle?

James: Karl Hoblitzelle had this big mansion on Armstrong Circle. Every year,

every Christmas season, he would let his servants use the house for a

party. He’d tell his secretary to call up all the neighbors. “Now, don’t

get upset. There’ll be somebody parking in your driveway tonight

because Mary and John are going to have a party.” I mean, they did it

every year. He bought several houses for his servants. The woman right

across the street from me was a Hoblitzelle maid. She was a special

maid who’d go up to his house up in Massachusetts. She was in charge

of that house. She’d go up in February, getting the house straight for

May, and stay there through December. Her house was sitting here with

nobody in it. That’s the kind of relationship they had. They took care of

“their people,” as you would say, paternalistically. They took care of

them. But that’s the attitude they had. Oh, yes, very calm, very calm,

very calm, no incidents. I have not had an incident on me since I’ve

been here, and I remember bomb threats. No, that kind of stuff--Dallas


- 32 -

wasn’t going to do that. Because, see, what happened, there was a

dichotomous thing going on. Underneath, the whites were getting the

message out there: We’re not going to stand no white rascals in this

town. So don’t come trying to start no stuff, because I’d lead a march

downtown, 1961, 1962, before we integrated.

Lovell: Was this at H. L. Green [department store]?

James: H. L. Green--a whole year--I picketed Green’s with twenty-five or thirty

people a day down there around the corner from Green’s. And I’d lead

Sunday marches right down Main Street all the way from Good Street

[Baptist] Church all the way downtown. Nobody cared anything about

it. Police were there escorting us.

Lovell: Did the newspapers cover it?

James: Oh, yes, they covered it.

Lovell: And everybody--it was okay?

James: Yes.

Lovell: But they didn’t integrate right away?

James: No. Dallas was going to have a peaceful, stair-step integration. In other

words, you’re going to do it twelve years, one step at time. And by the

time they got to twelve years, you’re so worn out, you don’t want

integration. (Chuckle)


- 33 -

Lovell: But what about the department stores?

James: Oh, the department stores. Now, department stores were...

Lovell: H. L. Green?

James: H. L. Green...We had been meeting with the Biracial Committee--I was

on there, too. We would meet; we would meet by ourselves and take up

our problems, and then we’d meet in the committee and lay the

problems on the table. And much progress was carried on that way

because they had never had a voice directed to them, and we had to

recognize that they were the power group because this town was white--

you couldn’t buck ‘em. The poor whites were worse than we were. They

were in slavery, too. I don’t think they cared as much as them--they

cared less--because it’s just like during the days of slavery. The white

plantation owners who were out to get the good land took all the poor

whites off the land and sent them to the hills to become hillbillies and

they subsisted on goats’ milk. So if you went up to West Virginia, you’d

see the remnants of that--all those people who went up the Appalachian

Trail--all the remnants of the poor whites who came off the land in the

South. But what they did though, they taught them to hate Negroes

because they said we are the cause of your being off the land. Well,

there was abolition and there wasn’t. And the poor whites didn’t have


- 34 -

enough sense but to believe it. They had to have somebody to hate, so

they hated us. But poor whites everywhere are woke up now. They

know that they were being mistreated and abused, too, and it wasn’t

long before they caught on to what was happening to them. So we had a

good alliance between the working-class whites in this town and the

blacks. Good relationship, good relationship. We’d have meetings;

they’d show up. Mexicans would show up. At that time, they were

“Mexicans.”

Lovell: Not Hispanics or Latinos?

James: There’s no such thing as “Hispanic.” Another thing that fooled them--

that Dallas was of their culture. Hispanic is not a race.

Lovell: How did you first hear about Goals for Dallas? Do you remember?

James: Very soon after the assassination, Erik Jonsson ran for Mayor and was

elected--unanimously elected. One of the first things he did was have

one of the Goals for Dallas. I think he had probably been a member--a

part of a “Goals for somewhere else” because the organizing staff was

well trained. So they had to go somewhere to get the training to

organize for Dallas. I think about six or seven--five or six--blacks--I

don’t think there are any blacks living now who were on that Goals in

there. Do you know who they are?


- 35 -

Lovell: [The Rev.] Zan Holmes was there.

James: I don’t even remember seeing Zan Holmes there.

Lovell: He was there.

James: I don’t remember seeing Zan at the Goals.

You see, there were some blacks who came at the last session, which

was a report session, and they didn’t stay there. They were not there the

whole time at the hotel.

Lovell: At Salado?

James: I heard Zan was there; I never saw him. Who else?

Lovell: As far as I know, he’s the only one of the blacks on the...still living.

Well, here, I’ve got the list [of Salado conferees]. You and Zan Holmes

are the only...

James: Only two living?

Lovell: Of the African Americans--as far as I know.

James: I know [A.] Maceo Smith is dead, and Juanita Craft is dead.

Lovell: [Reading from list.] S. M. Wright. [Dr.] Emmett Conrad.

James: Yes, they have both passed.

Lovell: I don’t know about [Mrs.] Marion Dillard. Is she still alive?

James: She’s dead.

Lovell: Okay. So I’ve just got you and Zan Holmes. That’s all I know. Here’s


- 36 -

the Salado list.

James: Yes [studying it].

Lovell: How did you become involved in Goals for Dallas?

James: I got a call from Robert Cullum and he told me they needed my help and

that whatever I could contribute to them that he would like for me to do

that because they want this thing established with some legitimacy. That

was his concern, and so I agreed. I attended several sessions in Dallas

before we went to Salado and from there we went to Salado.

Lovell: Do you remember anything about the speakers that you--I think they

were trying to prepare you for Salado, so they were having speakers

about the different things they were going to talk about. Do you

remember...?

James: You know what it was, don’t you?

Lovell: Well, no.

James: They didn’t have to prepare me. I think they were concerned about

attitudes of the fringe right, whom they thought would give them some

trouble on integration. But, other than that, I don’t think--they had no

fear from us about speakers. I don’t know of any session that I ever

heard of to prepare for speakers.

Lovell: No, I mean, that the speakers were to talk about the kinds of things that


- 37 -

you were going to talk about at Salado.

James: Oh, there were. There were several sessions in preparation for Salado,

yes.

Lovell: Why did you accept the invitation to go there?

James: Because I saw it as a furthering of the community support, a broadening

of the transitions of this town. Dallas was at an apex and anything that

was going to give a road to travel, to me, I welcomed.

Lovell: What were the circumstances of your first meeting with Erik Jonsson?

Do you remember that? Or, if not your first meeting, what were your

impressions of Erik Jonsson?

James: I had met him earlier. I had met Erik Jonsson when I was working to

raise money for Bishop College. You know, at that time, there was a

technical institute out there he headed. UTD was...

Lovell: Oh, okay. It was the Graduate Research Center [of the Southwest]?

James: The Graduate Center--and then was attached to that, it was doing

research for TI [Texas Instruments]. TI put a lot of money into this; this

was a TI project. TI started the University of [Texas at] Dallas. He and--

what’s the other man’s name?

Lovell: [Eugene] McDermott?

James: McDermott. And the other man?


- 38 -

Lovell: [Pat] Haggerty?

James: Pat Haggerty. And--he and his wife—they gave a lot of money--oh,

what is his name? Little, short fellow. Anyway...

Lovell: [Cecil H.] Green.

James: Green. All those--actually, I had met through those people.

Lovell: And what was your impression of Mayor Jonsson or Mr. Jonsson?

James: He impressed me because I saw in Erik Jonsson hope, because Dallas

needed some hope, just broadening ideas. TI came to Dallas and brought

all these “northerners” down here, and they set up a wall against them.

They were isolated down here for a while, and here they were gradually

weaving themselves into the patterns of community structure. I saw this

as a necessity and anything I could do to help further the cause of doing

that, I was in favor of.

Lovell: What do you remember about the Salado conference?

James: Well, I knew what to expect at Salado.

Lovell: And what was that?

James: One, I was going to hear a lot of dialogue on personal ambitions for

Dallas, like the [John] Stemmons project of the Trinity River

playground. Or like keeping the Dallas Council of Churches

community-based, but they want to run it like they ran it, which was by


- 39 -

the Citizens Council. In other words, I saw Goals for Dallas as an

extended arm of keeping control.

Lovell: In other words, you didn’t feel like they were looking at goals for the

whole city but to further their own aims?

James: Let me tell you. I’m not going to castigate my good friends who are

dead. John Stemmons--I loved him dearly. We used to get together and

we had some good times. Bob Cullum--I loved him dearly. I saw them

as just good white boys who themselves came up in a system of

paternalism. Somebody took them by the arm and carried them on--

Stemmons’s father. The Cullum boys didn’t have anybody; their daddy

was a--I don’t now if their daddy was a grocer or not. But the Cullum

boys were just outright good people. And I saw them in a niche

of their own dysfunctionalism, in terms of race. Didn’t know what to do.

We’re going to leave out the Jewish man...

Lovell: Marcus--Stanley Marcus?

James: No, it’s not Marcus.

Lovell: [Rabbi] Levi Olan?

James: Sam Bloom. He and I go back there. Levi Olan came to my Martin

Luther King address; he took pictures with me and Martin Luther. I’ve

got a picture of it.


- 40 -

Lovell: Is he the one you were thinking of when you said...

James: No. Julius Schepps. Yes, Julius Schepps--he was a Jew boy. He had to

do the right thing, too, to stay in. You know what I mean. They all

played games with each other. The Cullums were doing business with

the Dallas public schools. All the food was bought by the Cullum

Company. So they had no problem getting W. T. White to do what they

wanted done, and they let W. T. White do what he wanted to do. So W.

T. White ran a tight racist system, and they didn’t care how racist he

was because W. T. White was also doing what they wanted him to

do. It was a kind of an exchange--rub my back, I’ll rub yours.

Lovell: So when Erik Jonsson said that his goal was to be more inclusive...

James: Inclusive. It had to be...because I felt this way: Being a sociologist who

understands social dynamics--once you open up the lid, you can’t stop

it, and those who were not literate at that point got caught. Just like I

said--I always maintain this when I teach race relations--I said the

biggest mistake the white southerners made about slavery was their

house servants, because having house servants, he gave automatic

advantages to a different set of blacks, and they ate before he ate. They

learned to taste pheasant and country ham and they got that. They

sipped their juleps too. They adjusted to their station in life too. They...


- 41 -

[Tape stopped.]

Consequently, the system ended up with its own demise structure

because once you expose the disadvantaged person to another level of

living, you also set the stage to do those who were denying them their

own demise. So I knew this;

history tells this. Serfdom didn’t automatically fall under

European demise automatically. Serfdom fell because too many of the

serfs became nobles; they won wars that elevated them to a status that

was out of serfdom. So my point is this: If they were going to have

inclusiveness--and I tell you someone was a pusher; there’s a secret

partner in here. Northerners were coming into Dallas; they were upset

because they were pushed out of the power structure.

Lovell: In Dallas?

James: Oh, people--the TI-type folk. They were not acceptable here.

Moneywise, they were, but they were just as foreign as anybody else

was. But what happened? I have this theory: Ralph McGill wrote a

book, The South and the Southerners, and he said the only difference

between the southern liberal and the southern conservative is that the

southern liberal would hang a nigger on a lower limb. Well, what

happened was this: Many of those same whites who moved to Dallas


- 42 -

and Richardson--you know, Richardson was all originally TI--that’s

why they can’t expand--because they didn’t buy up the land around--

they didn’t have the money for it. So there was a real push to go north,

whereas Plano was expanding and bought up land. Anyway, when all

these companies started moving into Dallas, you had a group of

executives that were pushed to the sideline, and Erik was smart enough

to know that because he was in the group, too. They didn’t willingly

accept him; they had to accept him--because he was a man that had

suddenly become head of the biggest corporation in this part of the

country, and you better listen to him because he hired thousands and

thousands of workers. He won his respect; they didn’t automatically

give it to him. So there was a kind of ambivalence there between

accepting Erik--I never will forget--when Erik ran his second term,

Luther Holcomb, who was the chairman--or president--of the Dallas

Council of Churches--he and I are very good friends--asked me to give a

reception at my house on Lark Lane for Erik Jonsson’s wife, Margaret,

and invite black women, which I did. I sent out 400 invitations, and 450

showed up. Mrs. Jonsson was there, and Mrs. Cullum was there. About

eight or nine of the top businesspeople’s wives came and joined the

receiving line. The point I’m making is: it was an exclusive-inclusive


- 43 -

push. So the Goals for Dallas, so far as I saw it, was an opener that they

would not be able to close once it got open. That’s my point. See, I

don’t care what they thought about it, or how much they tried to control

it originally, they let them out the barn.

Lovell: Did you feel any discomfort about going to Salado, which was a small

southern town?

James: No, that was not a problem with me. Well, first of all, the motel

[Stagecoach Inn] was on the highway.

Tape II, Side A.

Lovell: You were talking about...

James: Social dynamics in community organization and development.

Communities own rings, and every ring ends up with another set of

rings. So you have the ring of inclusiveness, and then that ring creates a

ring of exclusiveness, and that ring expands and becomes a ring of

inclusiveness, and that ring sets off another ring of exclusiveness, so

you have a kind of ongoing exclusive-inclusive grouping, and that’s

represented in any community organization. It happens like that. I knew

that Dallas was headed to amend its ways, and I don’t say that

negatively; I say it positively. Amending its ways to me is saying that


- 44 -

I’m going to live better than I’ve ever lived before. So that’s the

progress, and I’m going to live better because I’m going to help

everybody else live better. [Tape fades away briefly.] Many leaders

thought North Dallas versus South Dallas and Oak Cliff citizens, as

superior and inferior. And that’s how I saw the Goals. I just saw the

Goals as another program to expand what Dallas ought to be and what

the brains of Dallas could make it be, once they determined it, because

the dynamites of this town could have anything they wanted if they

wanted it. Just say the word. They had the power. They represented

every phase of community operations. The United Way--I was on the

board for eleven years, on the budget committee of that for nine. I’d

meet with the United Way and I could just see the expansiveness. They

would grab everybody who would come to town then--all the new

presidents of companies, put them on the board of the United Way right

away, put them on this board, put them on that board, let them feel that

they are part of the operations of this city.

Lovell: And this was a change that was coming about?

James: That was a change that coming about. It wasn’t before: It was all “my,

my, my, my, my, my.”

Lovell: The leaders thought they were being inclusive in the people they


- 45 -

invited. Were they? Who might they have included that they didn’t

include?

James: Oh, I would think they would probably have had more labor there. More

Mexican Americans. The Jewish people were not, at that point, really in

a problem because the Jews in Dallas have always fared well. They had

their synagogues and their sections of town and nobody ever bothered

them, and they had their businesses. Nobody was more blessed in this

town, businesswise, than Stanley Marcus. The white women adored him

and gave him all their millions; they said, “Just dress me and make me

look good.” (Chuckle)

Lovell: And I’m going back to ask this again, just in case it got cut off. Salado

was a small, southern town. Did you feel any discomfort about going to

a conference there?

James: None at all. Because I had been through Salado coming from San

Antonio. My mother was living in San Antonio, so we’d drive right on

through Salado all the time. I knew about Salado, and I’d see the motel

right on the highway. It was just another place to me.

Lovell: Who was your roommate at Salado?

James: Didn’t have one.

Lovell: For many, if not most, of the white male Dallas power structure, Salado


- 46 -

may have been the first time that they interacted with African

Americans...

James: Absolutely right.

Lovell: ...on an equal footing.

James: Absolutely right. And they were sort of dubious there. There was a lot

of overreceptivity, and there was some hesitancy. I saw it; it was open.

The rednecks who wanted to be rednecks, they stayed rednecks. The

whites who were there who were borderline--and their bosses and their

friends had told them, “You’ve got to open up and not be from

Mississippi tonight. Don’t embarrass us”--they toed the line. That was a

part of the control, and thanks for the control. You see, that’s why I’m

not highly critical of Dallas now, when I look back on it, because I

know the best way to bring about social change is by social controls.

Not revolution. We’re getting ready to send up a spark that’s going to

terminate everything over there; everything is on edge, and it’s going to

burn it all up, if we don’t watch it. There are no controls. Goals for

Dallas was controlled by the Citizens Council. Whether you want to

agree with them or not, it was controlled. They’re the ones who said,

“We’re going to set a certain date and open up everything.” They got

Sam Bloom and paid him millions of dollars to operate--and I worked


- 47 -

with Sam in a lot of his programs--to make sure the message got out to

the community to keep things and lay it on, keep things peaceful until

we get this thing open. The date came around in September. Restaurants

were opened, there was not an incident; schools were opened, not an

incident; buses were, not an incident. How could that be, if there wasn’t

control? Months of planning went into it.

Lovell: So are you saying control was a good thing, after all?

James: I’m saying that, at that point, controls were good. Yes.

Lovell: Do you remember which of the discussion groups you were in? You’ve

got the list over there. The leaders were--where were the leaders?

Discussion leaders--Donald Cowan...

James: I was in his group, I know. He and his wife.

Lovell: They were both in that same group?

James: Yes.

Lovell: Do you remember anything about the discussions?

James: I don’t remember that much.

Lovell: Do you remember if the subject of race ever came up in any of the

discussions at that time, or was it a subject that it was avoided?

James: I think it was avoided. I don’t think they wanted this to be a race

relations meeting. I think they wanted to have this as a community--how


- 48 -

do you want to put it?--community solidarity meeting.

Lovell: Do you remember anything about any of the participants in particular?

James: There were no really--there were some stringent points of view. But,

you see, they were smart enough to make the decision based upon

consensus, which means your point of view is acceptable, too. And they

had enough people assigned to every group, and at the general sessions,

the vote was consensus. It was controlled.

Lovell: Was it a lot of work? There was a lot of reading that they expected you

to do ahead of time.

James: Yes, they gave us some of the readings to take with us--to bring there.

Lovell: Homework?

James: Yes.

Lovell: Did you take any friendships or working relationships away from

Salado?

James: Oh yes, a lot of people that I had known or met on a casual basis, I got a

chance to sit down and hold a lengthy conversation with and kind of feel

them out for where they were.

Lovell: Who were some of those people?

James: I don’t even remember. That is the God’s truth.

Lovell: That was a long time ago.


- 49 -

James: 1960s...forty years.

Lovell: 1966.

James: Was it 1966?

Lovell: Yes, that this meeting was, yes.

James: See, my goodness, that’s ancient history.

Lovell: Mrs. Juanita Craft was often quoted as saying that the Salado

conference was the first time she felt like a full American. Did you feel

that way?

James: I think she overblew that word.

Lovell: It’s been suggested that perhaps Goals for Dallas used that remark--they

always put it in all their advertising and public relations pieces.

James: She was the Aunt Tom of Dallas. I went to a meeting at the Black

History...this girl had done a history on Juanita Craft. I got up and asked

the question, “Which Juanita Craft did you do this on? Because the

Juanita Craft I knew didn’t do all the things you said she did.” Juanita

Craft was out for Juanita Craft and did very few things that she didn’t

gain from--including getting money for kids every year to go to the

[NAACP] national meeting.

Lovell: Oh, and then what happened?

James: She would go on her annual vacation--paid for by the white folks of


- 50 -

Dallas.

Lovell: Interesting.

James: Very interesting. They needed Juanita Craft. And she knew that and she

used them. See, she was an opportunist. She was an opportunist, down

to her death. When they put her on the City Council, they knew she was

not City Council material, but they just wanted her as a block--just used

as a blocker. She blocked black people.

Lovell: When you were all at Salado, did they expect the blacks they invited to

stick together or did they...?

James: I don’t think they thought we would divide among ourselves. There

were two opposing groups. It would be myself and A. Maceo Smith.

Maceo Smith who was a representative for the downtown people. He

wanted to go both ways. Maceo was basically a civil rights advocate.

He’d come in as an arsonist, and then he’d come back as a fireman.


James: Isn’t that interesting?

Lovell: Yes.

James: He’d set the fire, turn the blaze on, create the fire extinguishing--fire

material, then come back and, “Oh, my goodness, we’ve got to do

something here.” I was his pastor for eighteen years. I know what I’m


- 51 -

talking about. He made everything political.

Lovell: That very same summer of 1966, you went to that NAACP convention

in Los Angeles and you toured Watts and the [Dallas] Times-Herald

quoted you as saying that the conditions in Watts existed in every major

metropolitan community in the nation.

James: They did.

Lovell: I assume you were including Dallas in that?

James: That’s right. Dallas had Watts but it didn’t burn. And people wanted to

know why didn’t Dallas burn.

Lovell: I did want to know that.

James: White leaders helped make the difference. I told you because most

Dallas people came from East Texas, and they were not the overt

expressionist type. They were looking for advantages and once they got

an advantage they’d had never had, they became pacified. They were

passive and non-violent.

Lovell: Did you feel that Goals for Dallas could have some kind of impact on

the poverty in Dallas or the conditions in Dallas that were...

James: These were important factors--the community pulled together. I would

say this: that I think Goals for Dallas was a part of the thinking of Bob

Cullum when he called on Lew Sterrett and told him to get the War on


- 52 -

Poverty down here right away. I think it opened up--I think it brought

about a wider vision of their responsibilities as community leaders. Not

just to say what we’re going to have or what we’re not going to have,

but let’s see what we can have. So I think it opened up the doors for

community possibilities and assets.

Lovell: Were you involved in the neighborhood meetings in the fall of 1966

after Salado?

James: Most of them.

Lovell: Do you remember which ones?

James: I remember the ones I attended, really.

Lovell: Zan Holmes said that in the black community there’s no separation

between social action and the evangelical.

James: We emphasized community togetherness throughout Dallas. I don’t

know what he means by that other than one for one and one for all.

Lovell: As pastor at New Hope Baptist Church, did you share information about

Goals for Dallas with your congregation?

James: Yes. We talked about it at every opportunity.

Lovell: Did any members of your congregation become involved in Goals for

Dallas because of you?

James: Oh, no. Marion Dillard was in my church. Maceo Smith was in my


- 53 -

church, so that was three of us.

Lovell: But it seems like they were asked to go to Salado, so they were picked.

James: Well, she was head of the YWCA [Maria Morgan Branch], and so she

was naturally capable. She worked with the women’s groups of

metropolitan Dallas, and she was an intelligent lady, but she was not

what you’d call--she was not a Juanita Craft.

Lovell: In both the first and the second round of Goals for Dallas, you were on

the Public Safety Task Force.

James: Yes, I remember that.

Lovell: Did you choose that subject or did they assign it?

James: I chose public safety.

Lovell: Why did you pick public safety?

James: Because I saw busing at that time as a vehicle. That was that 1966...?

Lovell: Two different times. One was about 1968 to 1969, and the next time

was in 1976. Both times you were on the Public Safety Task Force.

James: I don’t really remember.

Lovell: Here’s the names--this is the first go-round [pointing to names on list].

Alex Bickley was the chairman.

James: Alex Bickley and I became very good friends.

Lovell: Do you remember anything about him on the committee?


- 54 -

James: Well, see, public safety--at that time, you had under public safety--

Lovell: Here’s what you talked about as the general goal--your committee.

James: Public Safety committee.

Lovell: Yes. I didn’t copy all of it; I just copied the general part of it.

James: [Reading from photocopy.] Oh, here it is right here: “Appreciation for

law and order a priority as essential instrumentalities.” I don’t really

know what we did that was really outstanding under law and order. I

really don’t. One of the publications...

Lovell: The busing thing--you mentioned that you were interested in that.

James: Busing was over then. It had been outlawed by the Supreme Court.

Lovell: I wondered how public safety affected race relations in Dallas.

James: Well, there was a problem with the police department in black

neighborhoods.

Lovell: Possibly that could’ve helped that.

James: Yes, I’m sure that’s part of that.

Lovell: The second [Public Safety Task Force] committee was in 1977 with

Forrest Smith as the chairman, and again, the same subject, but I don’t

know--I find that, for lots of the people that I interview, the committees

sort of blend together in their mind over time because they don’t really

stand out.


- 55 -

James: We all did our thing.

Lovell: You probably just had meetings?

James: Yes. And went over material. I think by that time so much had happened

to kind of push--I kind of saw the efforts of other meetings--they’re

trying to hang on to an idea for which its time had passed.

Lovell: Meaning...?

James: Meaning that to keep having meetings on Goals for Dallas was not

required. We should’ve brought it down to a more practical need of

Dallas. What are the Dallas problems? And then divide it up in

groupings. I think the reason they didn’t do it because they didn’t want

to face the Dallas problems. I think there was an aversion to it.

Lovell: I have some criticism from different people that I want you to comment

on. This sort of relates to what you just said. In 1967, a Brandeis

University professor found that Goals for Dallas didn’t pay enough

attention to the plight of the poor. Was he right?

James: Yes, he was right. He certainly was right. (Chuckle)

Lovell: And then in 1976, nine years later, a Goals for Dallas Task Force found

that “lack of recognition and representation of non-establishment

groups” was a major issue facing Dallas, and also that “the closed circle

of those making decisions is intimidating to outsiders.” Comments on


- 56 -

that?

James: Yes, I do. I think that’s right. You still had two things going on

simultaneously: You had an ambivalence to outsiders, and then you had

a resentment of outsiders to insiders, and that was a warring faction. It

didn’t get open and ugly, but it was always there. So that statement can

be understood. The people who were not real Dallasites and had seen

Dallas for what it really was didn’t have much confidence in what these

community meetings were. A lot of them had turned it off as being a

vehicle to promote certain people’s private agendas. John Stemmons

was regularly accused of pushing that Trinity project for his own private

use. I don’t think that was the case. I think he saw some public good

there, but it was on his property. Public schools--the warring banks were

always after--Republic and First National--were always warring over

Dallas money--the public school money, and I think they had their

private agendas, too. So the schools also become participants in the total

integration program.

Lovell: In 1970, there was a conference at the Inn of the Six Flags, and you

were on a committee for Continuing Education with Bill Priest as the

chairman. It’s at the top [pointing to list],and I don’t know if you...

James: What year was this?


- 57 -

Lovell: 1970--in between the two Public Safety committees.

James: Yes, I remember that.

Lovell: What do you remember about it?

James: Let me look at it. I’m trying to figure out what was “Continuing

Education”--real continuing education. Yes, I do see now. At that time,

it was obvious to me that if we were in the War on Poverty that the

public schools had to be a tool we’re using and that this should be an

opportunity for people to go back to school and get their GED or get

their educations and become skilled workers. I think that’s the way I

took it. I don’t see anybody else on this committee that had any other

points of view. That’s about all I can see there.

Lovell: You were involved with Goals for Dallas work over a period of years.

How did you observe that Goals for Dallas had changed--not the goals

themselves, but the organization?

James: I think there was less community concern for Goals for Dallas in

subsequent years because it did not live up to the expectations of some

people.

Lovell: What expectations were those?

James: I think they expected things to move a little faster in certain areas.

Lovell: How did the African-American community feel about Goals for Dallas?


- 58 -

James: I think most of them didn’t know anything about it.

Lovell: That’s what I wondered. Was it something the white community

decided on?

James: That’s what it was. It was a white decision, and it came down quickly.

Lovell: Did Goals for Dallas have anything for African Americans had they

known anything about it?

James: They tried their best to stay away from cleavages, and especially racial

cleavages. Why? I don’t know who was their guidance. I think that was

all wrong. The best thing that could’ve happened for them was to put on

the table the problems. Now, let’s set the problems in task force, and

let’s work on the problems. They didn’t do that.

Lovell: Now, someone that I talked to--and I can’t exactly remember this--said

that every time the Dallas leaders sensed that there was any kind of

steam building up, they’d open the lid and just let out enough steam to...

James: Yes. That’s the theory.

Lovell: And you think that was right?

James: That was essential to community containment. That’s why I don’t

understand why we’re going over to fight this war in Iraq. That man

[Saddam Hussein] can be contained. That’s why I believe there’s some

personal agenda in this.


- 59 -

Lovell: Could be.

James: I know there is. Has to be.

Lovell: What was Goals for Dallas’s significance, do you think?

James: Why I think it was significant--because for the first time in Dallas

history, people came to the table to speak, whether anybody listened to

it or not. It gave a voice that had not been heard, and it gave hope where

there was little hope. At least, it gave some hope.

Lovell: What were its shortcomings?

James: The shortcomings that could be seen from people who were up here

[gesturing], not down here. So the first participants at the table, they

would see no shortcomings. They may have come with an agenda, but

they couldn’t judge that agenda by shortcomings because they were not

in on the inner workings. So, from up here, I think there should have

been more inclusiveness on planning and on setting issues for

discussion rather than just blow up big--public safety, my goodness--

about the whole universe. More involvement in planning was needed--

we were served a new dish of food.

Lovell: Too general, instead of specific?

James: Too general, yes.

Lovell: It seems like, maybe in about 1976, there was actually a separate--


- 60 -

maybe even a separate organization--Goals for Black Dallas?

James: Yes, somebody came up with that. I don’t remember now.

Lovell: They did a comparison between Goals for Dallas and Goals for Black

Dallas, and that’s exactly what they found: that Goals for Dallas was too

general, as compared to Goals for Black Dallas had mainly specific

goals.

James: A copycat entity with little substance.

Lovell: What did you take away from your involvement in Goals for Dallas?

James: Well, at that time I had six attaché cases in my trunk.

Lovell: Full of material?

James: All the boards I was working on.

Lovell: (Chuckle) But not just Goals for Dallas?

James: No. Six!

Lovell: And is it because of Goals for Dallas?

James: No. I was just involved in too many things. I just could not give my time

to concentrate on one thing. I had to give time while I was there or what

with preparation was being done, but when I left I had to leave because I

had to go--my time was taken up somewhere else.

Lovell: You always had a dual career, at least.

James: Dual career, plus community involvement. I was president of the OIC


- 61 -

from 1976 to 1983. That’s a day-and-night program, and I had to make

sure it was operating, even though I had staff. I was the first black

president of the War on Poverty, incidentally.

Lovell: In Dallas?

James: Incidentally--War on Poverty. Zan Holmes was asked to come and sit

on stage when Martin Luther King came. He refused.

Lovell: Now, what year was that? The 1961 visit?

James: 1961.

Lovell: He refused?

James: I. B. Loud had put him in this little church out there in Hamilton Park as

a mission church, and I. B. Loud told him not to have anything to do

with it.

Lovell: And he did [what Loud asked].

James: And he did. But when I got OIC established, when I got the War on

Poverty established and they got a staff, he became the first black

assistant director on staff--paid for.


James: Isn’t that interesting?

Lovell: Did you talk to him much at Salado?

James: I don’t even remember him being there. I think Zan came in that


- 62 -

Saturday group. There was a Saturday group.

Lovell: That only came for one day?

James: Yes, came for one day, yes. I don’t think he was there the whole time.

Lovell: But you were there the whole three days?

James: I was there the whole three days.

Lovell: Is there anything I haven’t asked you about Goals for Dallas that you

want to add?

James: I think if I were going to evaluate Goals for Dallas, I would have to give

the community an “A” for working toward community involvement,

especially from the vantage point of non-involvement previously. It was

a start. I think it created more self-respect for Dallas and more respect

for other of the Dallasites. I think it brought together--it was just a

human bond--it integrated people. But Dallas was not an integrated

community. So, when you add it up, it was a very positive thing.

Lovell: Going back to Salado for one second--do you remember anything about

Dr. Donald Cowan as a discussion leader?

James: He was always a very dull person to me. He was at the University of

Dallas, and he was owned by the power structure.

Lovell: Dr. James, thank you very much for taking part in our project.

James: Well, this is very good. I’m glad I was able to.

Documents

Dr. Rhett H. James: An Oral History Interview