… · Web viewTime code Person speaking Words 00: 00:17:09 Martin Today is 27th February 2007.We are at Matayo’s house. It is in a region called Mbyo; we are going to talk with

Name of the Interviewee NTAMFURAYISHYARI

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00: 00:17:09

Martin Today is 27th February 2007. We are at Matayo’s house. It is in a region called Mbyo; we are going to talk with a man called Ntamfurayishyari Silas. He is a survivor of the Rwandan Genocide and he saved many other people who are still alive nowadays. One of the people he saved is an old woman called Mudede Perpetue; she will be talking with us too. Ntamfurayishyari will be telling us about how he saved people and Mudede will tell us about how Ntamfurayishyari helped her during genocide. We would like you, Mtamfurayishyari, start to with introducing yourself.

00:00:53:03

Silas Thank you; my name is Ntamfurayishyari Silas, I am married and I am father of four children. I was born in Ntarama sector, Ruhondo cell, Ruhengeri province. I now live in Ririma sector, Bugesera district in the Eastern province.

I have been a soldier since 1990 until 1998.

00:01:39:13

Martin We now want you tell us about your former military life. You have just come to tell us you were a soldier. How did you enter the army? How did you begin with it? What have been your appointments until you were sent to Gako military camp where you were when the genocide began?

00: 01:57:05

Silas Thank you. When I just entered the army in 1990, the war of the 1st October had not yet began, what means that when Mutara was attacked at the very first time I was already in the army. I have been to

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the front, like many other soldiers, until 1997 because of many problems within the army in what concerns social life. Amongst the problems we experienced there was that of people who were suspected to be traitorous. I was at big risk to be suspected because of a member of my family who had gone to study in Uganda in 1987 and who afterwards joined Inkotanyi army. There occurred a problem in the region where we lived; one day some Inkotanyi came to make an ambush nearby the mountain where we lived called Shonga. When they came, we had also to go for mine clearing operations. We used to always check whether there were any mines put in the roads. Among the Inkotanyi troops on ambush was that relative of mine. He wrote me a letter and left it on the road. My co-soldiers saw it and picked it up when they were on mine clearing operations. There were curious to know what was written in and did not help to read it. They astonishingly found that it was written by an Inkotanyi.

Tension started coming up and I was not aware of nothing; the matter was that an Inkotanyi soldier had written a letter to me. However my co-soldiers did not know what was the relation between me and that Inkotanyi, they knew nothing about us. I just saw them chasing me away from the front. They took off my gun, my munitions and all my military possessions. They brought me at Kami where I expected to be imprisoned. However, when we arrived at Kanombe, I reported my question to a commander called Habineza. He explained me what exactly was the matter; I therefore knew what made me be chased away from the front. I explained him the history of that

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boy, the way he went to Uganda for to study. I also explained that when he left I was not yet in the army; I was still a civilian. The commander said:” Instead of bringing you to Kami, let us send you to Gako.” I was chased away from the front in February 1992 and I was sent to Gako military camp. When I arrived there, I took on doing simple works in the camp. Some days after, happened some killings in the region of Bugesera and I was there. Some people started fleeing to the churches and authority bureaus. It happened that sometimes soldiers were sent to protect those people; however, the situation was not considerably too fraught. Some people obviously died but most of the ones who fled away survived.

00: 05:00:09

Silas Thereafter things turned wrong, I fell in big troubles. I remember once, we met a girl who probably was a primary school teacher in former Ngenda district. We were coming from patrol at Ruhuha and on our road back to the camp, nearby Murago bridge at the customs office; some men were attacking that girl to kill her. I came to deliver her from them and brought her away. It led me into big troubles because those killers came to report what I had done to my superior. He was a Lieutenant who had come to move us from that area. It might have been very dangerous for me but I have been very lucky; it just passed on without causing me any serious harm.

After those incidences, everything seemed to return in order and killings slowed down, indeed even stopped completely in that same year of 1992. A good while after, in 1994 began genocide; I was still living in Gako military camp. We just saw genocide falling upon us; it was a very big

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problem for all of us. We did not know what to do and the people who had been protected against killings of 1992 could not have any more protection. Fleeing away was not easy either. There was no such plan to protect people or to help them to flee neither in the army nor in civilian authorities. It was a serious problem for the military forces too; some soldiers were not trusted in what may be their ideologies. It even happened that some officers go to the mass of non-commissioned officers to take their food and drinks there. Some non-commissioned officers also went to officers’ mass though they were not allowed to. This was just because of what each one of us thought he was or what his ideology was. It was really a trouble that we were all aware of.

00:06:45:06

Silas We tried to handle the problem; I was a Christian soldier. I used to go to people’s homes to visit them or just to see how they do. I did not dare to do favors to Hutus or Tutsis. We tried to see everybody and just when we tried to pay attention at their mood, we noticed their hopelessness and anguish; we could see it on their faces. I wondered how I could do to help people who were in danger. I could not manage; it was not easy at all. There are some who tried and fell unfortunately into bigger troubles. I remember a soldier called Ruzindana who died because of just having visited an outside family. He was suspected to have tried to save people.

It was said that he was dating a girl in that family. When he went to see them, he found that they were all killed. Their neighbors knew he was dating a daughter of that killed family. When they

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saw him, they surmised him to have played a role in that family’s death. They run after him screaming at him until the case reached the camp saying that Ruzindana killed people. He was immediately arrested. He remained in dungeon for few days and he was temporarily released; he was later delivered to Interahamwe who killed him. It was very difficult to save people. We tried to think about what could be done to save people; even one person only but we did not find any way out. I went to see my co-soldier who was a Christian too. I told him about that problem and we decided to go to see another soldier who was older than both of us and who was married. He lived in the center of Mbyo. He congratulated our idea and suggested to take some hunted people to Burundi. There was no other possible solution. We could not take them to a military camp and we could not take them to the bureau of sector either. We confirmed to take people to Burundi from Gako through the forest. We found some people and we put them in Karemangingo’s house. Karemangingo was a soldier too. We kept them in that house until around 8:00 pm when we took them and started the flight. We took the path leading to the camp through a banana plantation. We sloped down it and took another route that led us into the forest. We walked across the whole forest and we had to avoid military encampments and barriers that were throughout the forest. We were so condemned to go through the bushes and meadows in order to bypass common paths and roads until we arrived to Burundi.

00:09:39:12

Silas For the very first time, we brought about thirteen persons. I was with a soldier called Anaclet, I do

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not see quickly his other name, he was in charge of outside military defense whereas I was appointed inside the camp. I found him easily because he stayed nearby where I lived and he was a Christian. It was very easy for Christians to know each other and to do many things together. We planned our flight and agreed to help thirteen people escape. We brought them to Burundi. When we were back, a lot of works were there for us. It was the beginning of war and many other military operations had to be carried out. We could not therefore see each other. On our way back from Burundi, we were together but afterwards we did not meet any longer.

Though we had yet saved some people, it was not really enough. We had to save some other more. It was the time when I met this old woman. I was on my way back from Mayange; I had been to visit a man whose wife was a family relative of mine. It was in the evening at the glow of twilight. On my route I crossed a military convoy, I stopped them and said:” Let me come with you.” They ignored where I was coming from but some of them knew I had family relatives round about. They took me with them.

When we arrived at the frontier between Mayange and Mbyo on the side of Mbyo, we found some men maltreating an old woman. I approached them screaming at the old woman as if I was on the gangsters’ side. It was just a trick for me to win the gangsters’ confidence; I wanted them to leave me the old woman believing that I would kill her by myself. Things turned out as I expected and I took away the old woman with me. I brought her in a bush and told her:” Stay here,

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don’t move.” The gangsters had gone away and my convoy likewise; I had told my co-soldiers:” You can go without me, I have got a little job to do.” I was left alone with the old woman. The old woman was with a young child. I told them:” Stay here, I will come to see you later, don’t go anywhere.” I had noticed that she did not really know the area where she was wandering. I came back to see her in the evening and I brought her to Burundi.

00:12:10:07

Silas A good while after, I brought some other persons. They were about six or seven. There occurred other problems afterwards. Some people had discovered that there were soldiers who took people to Burundi. The story came and reached our military camp. New strategies were set up to prevent and to check whether those hearsays were true or not. It became a strict order to count all the soldiers at every moment and to investigate where each and every soldier spends his nights. Each business and movement of every soldier had to be thoroughly inspected. The troops who were on patrol at different barriers noticed some traces confirming that some people had moved to Burundi.

It was no longer an easy matter to enter and to get out the camp at any wished moment. We were on our road to Burundi and when we reached the frontier, we returned home. Arrived in the camp, I met a co-soldier of mine, he was a Tutsi and his rank was Corporal. He knew there was a problem. Though the matter was not very clear, there were some suspects. They came to check in my bed if I

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was present and they missed me. An order was decreed that I had to be arrested once I am back. I met that soldier called Munyanziza Pascal, he was a native of Nyanza and we lived together in the same room. He was aware of the fact that I was helping people to leave the country. There was another soldier who was aware of it; he was called Kamanayo. He was a native of Butare. On my way back to the camp, I met Munyanziza at the gate. When he just saw me he said:” Ntamfurayishyari, how dare you to come back here when you should have better stayed to Burundi?” I was not aware of anything going on in the camp. I was a bit frightened but I knew that my life was not worthier than that of people I had saved. I also thought it would pass on, maybe. I tried to keep my cool and entered in the camp. I met another soldier inside the camp. He was the escort of Colonel Munyarugarama who was the head of Gako military camp. The escort was seated before the administration hall. He came and told me:” Save your life, you are dead. It is decreed that you must be killed.”

I immediately understood that everything was over for me. I remembered that Ruzindana died in the same circumstances. I felt death inside me. I do not remember how I got immediately in my bedroom. I just saw myself inside the room. I changed my clothes and put on my new military uniforms. I took my gun and charged it with cartridge and I wondered:” If they try to kill me I will fight them, I won’t let them kill me anyhow.” I took my bag and put in all my other civilian clothes. It was around 10 or 11am. I straightaway got out the camp and went to hide in a bathroom

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nearby there; I knew everything was over for me. I was dead.

I stood a while in the bathroom, I could not hold and I got back out. I went to hide in a big toilet hall; I spent a good while there. I was glancing out through the gap between the roof and the walls to see whether there were movements of soldiers hunting me in and around the camp. I got out again and moved closer to the fence. I wanted to go through an opening that was of course not principle. I got out quickly through that opening and climbed up a hill by a path that led me to the airport. On my way, I was meeting some other soldiers who probably were not aware of my struggles. It was a chance for me because the soldiers who were on the daily patrol could not spread out about my evasion; they knew nothing. Only those who were inside the camp had received the order to arrest me and to kill me. The one who had received the order was Munyanziza Pascal, he was my roommate and a good friend of mine; it is he who advised me to run away. He knew everything about my operations of taking people to Burundi. I arrived to the airport nearby our camp. I entered the forest and crossed it until I arrived to Burundi. That is how I fled.

00 : 16 :28 :09

Silas I safely arrived to Burundi. I was warmly welcomed and I stayed at the police camp of Kirundo. I spent there about two weeks. A moment before I arrived to Burundi, I passed by the customs bureau at the frontier between Rwanda and Burundi. I told them I was a civilian. I had of course changed my clothes. I had dismantled my gun and put it in my bag. I had also put my military uniform in the bag then I hid it in a bush

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round about the frontier. I told the customers that I was a civilian fleeing war. I said I was a merchant. However, after a shot reflection I found that it would lead me into big troubles if it happens to be found out that I was a soldier. I judged good to say the truth instead of taking a risk to be disclosed later. There was a man who was registering immigrants and I decided to tell him the truth. I was feeling a bit bad; I had not eaten since days and I felt somehow weak.

I told myself that it is maybe better to tell the truth no matter any prize it should cost me. Then I told that I was a soldier. The soldier who was there called on his co-soldiers to hear at what I was telling. They screamed at me but they did not beat me at all. They did me no harm. I saw how they dashed to see me and I believed it was the end of my life. One of them said:’’ How can one come and tell that he is a merchant and a moment after change his words telling he is a soldier? Let us ask him some questions first.” They asked me many questions and I explained why I was fleeing. I told them that I was pursued to death because I had helped people to flee the country saying:” I am run after to death because I have saved people. That is why I am fleeing.”

They kept me with them and early in the morning, they took me to Muhuzu where other refugees were. We were with a police commissioner from Kirundo; when we arrived at the refugee camp, he called on some refugees to come to greet me. They greeted me with lots of joy. They were very happy to see me. Though they were sorrowful because of their relatives who had perished, they greeted me with a smile on their lips. I was also

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happy to see people with whom I suffered in the forest, under the rain and the cold of long nights. I had many problems inside myself but the fact of seeing those people made very happy. Thereafter, I was brought to Kirundo where I spent about two weeks. After that, I was sent to Bujumbura at Buyenzi in BSR for to answer to some questions. They asked me:” What is your first need?” I told them:” Take me to the refugee camp to stay with my compatriots.” They brought me to the refugee camp and I stayed there for some other two weeks. By that time, Inkotanyi troops had already conquered the whole region of Bugesera. The customs bureau and Gako military camp had been conquered too. Some days after, Ngenda was also seized. I therefore felt a need to come back to my country. With lots of other Rwandan refugees, I came back to Rwanda. At my arrival, I entered the Inkotanyi army where I stayed until 1998.

00 :19 :47 :18

MARTIN I now want to come back to the beginning of genocide war. We all know that at the beginning of genocide, soldiers were ordered to support and to help Interahamwe to kill. Did not this happen in Gako military camp so that you may have decided to help people instead of killing them? Did not be any mobilization of soldiers telling them to help killing people instead of saving them?

00 :20 :15 :15

Silas That kind of mobilization may have not been very open; however, it happened. The reason why I say that it may have not been very open is that in the army, not everybody agreed with the policies of then. The soldiers who did genocide were selected. I remember a Sergeant Major called Ndagijimana; he was a native of Gisenyi. He is one

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of the soldiers who exterminated people at Nyamata. The soldiers who did genocide were selected from here and there in different rooms accordingly to their ideologies. Not every soldier was supposed to go on killing. It was not a matter of designating a platoon or any other military entity to go to kill. It was just a matter of selecting those who agree with that genocide ideology. Though we were the national army, our reasons were not the same. Many of soldiers had already understood the tricks of the war we were fighting. At the very beginning of war, we were told that we were fighting Ugandans, but at the end of the day, we knew that we were fighting Rwandans. We captured some of them at the front and when we talked to them, we noticed that they were Rwandans. They told us where they were native of. It was not very clear to fight them; it was worth to make a change. Therefore, I can say that it is true that orders mobilizing soldiers to kill were given but because of differences of ideologies, those who put genocide in action were the ones who agreed with them.

There are for example soldiers who were my roommates. I can remember two, one was named Hakizimana Gerald and the other was Sibomana Joseph. They were both natives of Ruhengeri like me. We lived in the same house. We were known as ‘Abakiga’ and we used to chat calling ourselves so. However, we perceived things differently. I knew that their ideologies were totally different from mine. For example, during genocide, we separated completely. One day, I was shot in our room by one of them because I was just refusing to go with them to kill. They often asked me:”

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Come with us.” And I answered:” I cannot come with you.” Because what they were doing was very different from what I wanted to do. My aim was to get people saved while theirs was to get people killed. When they were back from their hunt, they used to shout priding on themselves to have killed such amount of people, such kind of man and so forth. When we were hearing such shameful words, we felt so upset.

During that period, I was relatively speechless though I had always been less talkative. I could not have what to talk with them. One day, they came to see me in the night. They told me:” You are becoming a ‘Munyenduga’, what are you doing?” They talked a lot to me but I just kept silence, I did not reply anything. I was laid on my bed but I was awake; I looked as if I was asleep just because I did not want to talk. One of them took a gun and I believed it was a joke but suddenly he cocked. I abruptly jumped out of my bed and caught tightly the gun. My adversary had his finger on the trigger and unconsciously shot out all the bullets in the roof. Frankly, that is very clear. We cannot say that only Ruhengeri natives did genocide. There are many others from Gashora, others from Ngenda, Kibungo…, Cyangugu and elsewhere in the country. Not only Abakiga were implied in the genocide execution. It was just a matter of thinking, a matter of each one’s ideologies. The army authorities were in charge to inspect the behavior of soldiers in that time.

00 :24 :11 :11

Silas The people who put genocide in action had been mobilized. I remember when soldiers attacked Nyamata; it is that attack which must have

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triggered off the killings in this region. I can remember that from Wednesday, the day when the President’s plane crashed until Sunday, there had not been any serious incidents in this region. We were just hearing about what was happening outside, and we were not even very sure if it was really happening or not. We heard repercussions of gunshots from Kigali and bombs bursting far from us. On the phones, we could hear that somewhere soldiers killed people or Interahamwe killed persons somewhere. There are also some people who came to look for munitions in our camp. I can remember a car which came from Bicumbi; it was a car of Bicumbi commune. I remember that it was transporting people wearing military helmets but they were civilians. Others wearing motorcycle helmets and they all wore civilian clothes. Some of them wore Interahamwe shirts, others pants symbolizing MRND colors. It was a big mixture of colors and styles. They came as civilians but our steward packed rice, meat, guns and their munitions in their car. I remember it very well.

That happened between Wednesday and Sunday. On the following Monday, it was on the 11th if I remember well, soldiers attacked Nyamata. On that day, I was in my bed early in the morning, I saw a Christian boy who lived with us; he was a native of Cyangugu. He came to me and told:” Ntamfura, I want to go to Nyamata. There are soldiers who are attacking there to loot.” I listened to him attentively and I understood it was a serious matter. I asked him:”Are you going with them?” He answered:” You know that I have a problem;” He was a friend of mine and he never

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concealed anything from me, I knew he was planning his wedding. He continued:” You know that I have a wedding soon and I don’t have any money, I have so to go to Nyamata to look for money.”

I remembered that we used to go to Nyamata to visit some people who lived there, I took a short while thinking and I said:” What you want to do is abomination. A Christian should not do such wrongdoing. That is very regrettable.” He did not want to hear me and I got out my bed and said:” Let me come with you.” I said so because I wanted to be with him alone outside the room; there were other soldiers in the room. I was planning to convince him to change his mind. I woke up and took him outside the room before everybody get up. We walked out of the camp along the road until far away. He had built a house at Mbyo where he had to live with her bride. I suggested him:” Let us go to see your house and check if it is safe.” We went and arrived to his house. He said:” You can see that it is very okay.” He opened the door and we got in to sit and talk a bit. I was keeping repeating:” What you want to do is worthless, what will think people who will see you doing such misconduct? Do you think this is worthy of your being a Christian?” He did not want to change his mind and said:” I do not have any other choice, there is no other possibility to get money for my wedding.” Truly, I had tried my best but he disobeyed me and I set him free.

We were at Mbyo’s church and we entered in its enclosure. There were some people inside the church. It was Monday and we were told that some people might have spent their night inside

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the church. We approached the church and heard they were people inside. It was an ADPR church. I told him:” Let us go inside.” He refused and went out the church’s enclosure. There was a small center around the church. When we were a bit far from there, we met two co-soldiers of ours. There was a man who was repairing a motorcycle nearby there, they took it by force and went on it with that soldier with whom I was. They said they were going to look for a car at Nyamata that had to transport other soldiers. They went on that motorcycle and I returned to the camp.

00 :28 :25 :18

Silas I was on my way back to the camp; I had just covered about five hundred meters from Mbyo Center. I met a man called Rwabusaza; he lived at Nyamata. He was an old man who was a bus driver of ONATRACOM; he used to drive soldiers in their different movements. He was driving his car. I stopped him and asked:” Where are you going?” He answered:” I am going to Nyamata.” Then I said:” Will you be back immediately?” He said:” Yes, of course. I am just bringing my clothes to be washed; I will take clean ones and come back.” He said so because there was a good while we did not have water at the camp. I objected:” If it is so, let me come with you. I want to buy a piece of bread at Nyamata.” He was with another soldier, native of Cyangugu, whose name was Munyaneza. My plan was to get to Nyamata and warn shopkeepers to close their shops and flee. I got into the car and we traveled a long distance without saying a word. I was just thinking about what I was planning to do. The soldier who was with us was a Christian too, however I could not tell him about my plan because I thought he might

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have changed too.

He was a good soldier and he was a choirboy. He was a real Christian. Unfortunately, I could not trust him enough to deliver him my secret. We arrived at the old driver’s home and we sat for a short while. I told them:” Let me go to buy a piece of bread, I will be back right now.” The driver told:” Be back quickly, don’t make me waste my time.” The other soldier got up from his chair and said:” I want to buy a piece of bread too.” We went together and when we arrived at football ground nearby there. I told him:” I have just come to warn people about the attack which is coming today.” By the way, on the route coming to Nyamata, we had met the soldiers who had come before us on motorcycle. They had probably sequestered another motorcycle because each of both was on his motorcycle. We did not know what they had done and we just continued our travel. So, I and the soldier were at a football ground and I was telling him:” There is an attack coming today and I have just come to warn shopkeepers to flee.” Munyaneza replied:” I have also come for that but I feared to tell it to you because I thought you might consider it badly.”

We arrived at the center; he entered in a shop and I entered in another. In the meanwhile when we were at the driver’s house, the soldiers who were on motorcycles had taken a white Daihatsu and embarked soldiers. A short while after we arrived in the center, we had just reached some few shops and we heard car hums outside. A car was crossing the center moving to the Sub-prefecture offices. There was a bar called Oasis nearby there. When I saw the car I ran to find Munyaneza and

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told him:” The soldiers are coming.” We did as if we were leaving and some shopkeepers had begun to close their shops. We left the center and went back to the old driver’s house. We told him:” Things are turning out worse.” We were not far from the Commune’s offices and we heard the first shots ringing out. We therefore told the old driver:’’ Try your best to get us out of here.” He took quickly his clothes; we got into the car and moved on straightaway.

We were discussing along our travel and the old driver asked:” What is really going on here, what are those soldiers trying to do?” We replied:” We don’t know.” A short while after, the old man told us:” So, you as soldiers, you have to report this. You have to know whether this is an accurate military operation or just theft. It may be something organized by soldiers alone or in complicity with high authorities.” I arrived in the camp and all the soldiers were out on their daily works, it was a bit later than 7 am. Colonel Munyarugarama was the head of the camp. I went to see him in his office at the administration block. It was not already genocide; we were just considering it as a banditry chaos. I entered in the office and told:” I am coming from Nyamata and I have seen some soldiers coming in a car; they started shooting.” He was a very humble man not talkative at all. He asked me:’’ Ntamfura, how have you been to Nyamata?” I responded:’’ I went with Rwabusaza. He was going to change his clothes because the ones he had were dirty. I was just going to buy a piece of bread.” He said:” Let them do what they want, they will be back at the end.” I left the office but I had noticed that it was

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something like collusion. I finally found out that really the soldiers were acting in collusion with the authorities because in the evening, two military trucks were sent to bring the soldiers back in the camp.

00:33:42:16

MARTIN Let us recapitulate. If we talk again about the main issue of the fact that you saved people, How many people do you think you may have saved or helped to flee?

00:33:58:04

SILAS The number I do not remember clearly is that of people I took at the last turn. They were about six or seven; I do not remember well. However, something that makes me remember the ones I saved for the very first time is that I wrote them on a sheet of paper. Before I leave them, I wrote their names. That is why I remember them. For the second time, I saved that old woman with a little child who probably was a girl. Then for the third time, I saved about six or seven people.

00:34:31:14

MARTIN How did you know those people you saved? Were they people you previously knew? Did you just meet them on street? Were they brought to you by anybody? Where did you exactly find those people?

00:34:42:22

silas It was not easy at all to get those people. We could not even go like civilians to look for them while we were soldiers. It was not easy. We went wearing our military uniforms. I remember one day, I was going to look for some people I knew and when I arrived at their home, they were not there. I asked their neighbors if they know where they may be. They told me to search in a sorghum plantation. I took two Christian boys to help me to

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search. I was very sorrowful to learn that people who were too kind to me are hiding as such. I used to visit them after having completed my jobs in the camp. They received me well. It was not a big deal to get out of the camp once your tasks completed. We could go and have a walk in the village. We were well received, they prepared tea for us and sometimes we shared their meal though it was prohibited for soldiers to behave so. We, as Christians, used to live so. Even when they were eating cassava leaves and potatoes, we shared it with them without any problems. That is the way we cohabited with people of that area. I and two Christian civilians went looking for them in a sorghum plantation as we had been told by the neighbors. The sorghum plantation was close to the military forest. We went approaching the plantation as if to be able to call on them so that they come to us.

I called their names and introduced myself so that they recognize me and come to me. They heard us and we just saw sorghum stalks shaking. They were running away. I let them go and noticed how hard it was to get people to save. It was not easy to meet people in the street and convince them that you are just to help them while you are wearing military uniforms. We had talked to some of Christian civilians to help us get people to save. We had told them that it was possible to bring people to Burundi. Those few civilians helped us to achieve our goal. Those Christian civilians had to investigate and know where people were hiding. They thereafter had to go and tell them that there are people who want to help them flee and go to Burundi. When it was possible to move in the

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night, we gathered them at one place until we go. Civilians had been very useful for us in that action. I remember a man that I saved one day. I took him near Gako and brought him at Mayange in the night at around 9 pm. I had found him in the house of a man who was a Pastor. They had called on me to help him. There was a soldier who had been at that house and was told to call on me for help. He was told that there was a man hidden in the house who had to be brought away in order not to be found and killed. The soldier came in my house around 8:45 am. I suddenly took my gun and bullets and ran to the Pastor’s house. I took the fugitive away in the night. We went to Mayange…I mean to Mbyo at another soldier’s house. I told the fugitive to stay there. We had not yet started to bring people to Burundi. We thought It would be possible to protect them from there; however, it did not take too long to see that we were wrong.

We arrived to Mbyo and I left him at the soldier’s home. He spent the night there. The soldier told me:” You know that I spend all my day to work, hunters may come and find him alone with my wife, so I want you come and take him tomorrow early in the morning.” I left then and I arrived in the camp around midnight.

00 :38 :58 :02

Early in the morning, between 3:45 and 4 am, I went back to the soldier’s house. I had borrowed a bike from a Christian soldier with whom I lived. I went and took the fugitive to Mayange in a family I previously mentioned where a husband whose wife was a family relative of mine. When we arrived there I said:” This man will stay here.” I had bought a small estate before the war of 1993

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where I had planted sorghum. I told:” If there is any problem with this man, take him to my garden and hid him in the sorghum. If anyone tries to get in the garden, warn him that it is a soldier’s and that none has to get into. The fugitive spent the day there and probably some problems occurred, the fugitive was sent to hide in the sorghum garden. In the evening, I came to get him out the hideaway. We had accomplished the plan to take people to Burundi. There were other people we had found that day; we had gathered them at the house of a soldier called Vincent. Late in the evening, around…6 or…7 pm I went to bring the fugitive. We arrived where everybody was gathered and we waited until 8 pm. We moved on then to Burundi.

00.00.01.17

MARTIN Do you still see those people you accompanied to the frontier? Do you still communicate with them? Are you friends? Are all of them still alive or some died?

00 :00 :18 :01

SILAS I still see almost all of them. Some were then young girls and they are now married, others were little children and they are now in secondary school. There is another child I remember, he must now be at university. In fact, as I said, I did not know everybody I saved so that I do not know where some of them are right now. There are many others I sometimes meet when they have various festivities and parties like weddings. They invite me. Some else come to visit me and even those who were little children happen to call me ‘father’. They are like my own children. In few words, that is how our relationship looks now. There is another old man I often meet; I

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accompanied him too when he was fleeing and he is still alive. I meet him many times and I consider him as my own father, I do have good relations with him.

00 :01 :30 :08

MARTIN You have been telling that on your way to Burundi you passed by paths nearby here. It is true that you really passed nearby here. However, I would like to know where you were coming from? Were you coming from Nyamata? Can you tell us please?

00 :01 :45 :05

SILAS You can see that this area is covered of forests. However, it is not far at all from here to the center of Mbyo. We most of the time moved from the center to the house of the soldier I talked about, he lived a bit farther and his house was isolated. There was a woman who lived nearby there. I do not unfortunately remember her name. She helped the fugitives a lot. It happened that some fugitives were hungry and needed something to eat. She lived nearby the soldier’s house and she was very good at cooking for soldiers. That soldier used to go and bring food from the camp as almost all the soldiers were gone on slaying. He took food and brought it here. That woman was there and saw everything; she also helped a lot. I remember when we were to go for the first time; the woman was there. She saw how we took people and passed by there from the soldier’s house. We passed behind the house and sloped down the hill. There is a path from Nganda which passes beside the center and leads to the village. In that time, there was no way; we had to go through banana plantations. Those plantations are no longer there but they were then.

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We sloped down the hill through enormous bushes until we reach the path that leads here. There was another road which is no longer there, it sloped down to Cyohoha. It was a way mostly frequented by livestock but sometimes cars passed on it too.

We used to go through the forest; you can see that there is an artificial eucalyptus forest. On the other side down there, there is a natural forest composed mostly of bushes. We walked through those forests and we knew exactly where military barriers were placed. We always avoided barriers by walking deeper in the forests. When we were sure that no barrier was around, we walked in the common paths in order to advance more quickly. I remember the first time we traveled; we were with a young girl carrying her younger sister on her back. The child was not still young to be carried on the back but she could not walk either; it was very difficult for her sister. There were some children who were not also young to be carried on the back but who could not either travel tens of kilometers in the bush under rain in the night. It was very hard. We were going through this forest. When we were in an area where there was no military barrier, we walked in the streets and when we were close to a barrier, we walked deeper in the forest. When we were close to the frontier at the customs offices; there were a small aerodrome and a big one, we had to skirt round that area so as not to fall on a barrier. We passed farther in the forest and traveled some two kilometers; we then estimated that we had crossed the frontier. We came back to the main road and saw that we had bypassed the aerodrome. We arrived then to the

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road from the Rwandan customs offices to the Burundian.

00 :05 :50 :18

MARTIN We can see that it was not easy at all to help these people. This fact of saving people might have put you in big troubles as you were a soldier and you had left your work. However, you tried your best to save some lives. I would now like to ask you whether you did this by your own consciousness. Was there anybody calling on you to do it or telling you:’’ Please, see what you can do to save people.”? Or, were you expecting any reward? Can you tell us about this please!

00 :06 :23 :19

SILAS In short, I have once had a strange feeling inside myself since I was…I did my primary school at Ntarama. When I was in primary six, I saw a thing that stayed inside me until now. That is probably why I did what I did though some other factors may have intervened too. It happens to some people that a given item makes them behave accordingly differently. Some thing that induced my behavior is the manner how people cohabited in our country. There are soma people who think that the genocide ideology or even genocide itself born recently by the time of war. I saw that people who think so are wrong. It began long time ago. I remember when I was in primary six, there was a girl in our class who was born in a Tutsi family. I knew them very well. There was an old man called Munyagasozi Thadeyo, he lived in the former Cyabingo commune in Rugimbu sector. We lived in Ruhondo, Ntarama sector. Our habitations were separated by a small river and the road joining Kigali and Ruhengeri. Munyagasozi lived in the same neighborhood with an old woman who was a

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sister of my mother. We used to go to visit our aunt and sometimes we walked to Munyagasozi’s house. The houses were too close that we played with their children. There was a girl called Immaculee in that family. She studied at Jomba primary school. She was in primary eight and she has had to double the year. She came at our school in Ruhondo called Ntarama primary school. When she arrived, her journey has been very unfortunate.

She had had many problems caused by children under the sight of teachers. Some of those teachers are still teaching there. When we had to go out for a short break of fifteen minutes, students used to pull her hair saying:” Nasty Tutsi you are.” And so many other bad thinks. She was in primary eight and student of Primary eight were grown up enough. There are some students whom I do not remember names, who did that. That girl was very miserable. I saw everything but I could not do anything to help that girl. I was in primary six, I could not do anything to people who were in primary eight; I was younger to them. There was a teacher called Bazishyura Juvenal, he was the doyen of teachers and he let everything happen under his sight. There was also another teacher called Kamali Laurent, he taught in primary eight and he taught me too. Everything happened under his sight and he did nothing. Many other teachers saw it too but they did nothing. I passed the same way as her. We used to go home from school together but our way forked when I walked up home and she followed the tarmac to her home. She often went home weeping of sorrow. I was deeply shocked to see her crying. She was

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someone I knew, we used to meet when I was at my aunt’s home. It was too hard for me too. We were hearing about Hutus and Tutsis at school and we ignored what it exactly was. Unfortunately, she was a victim of those ideologies. I wondered:” How is a Tutsi so awful that he deserves such persecutions?” That girl has been urged to leave the school; she had not even done a month. Unfortunately, I did not know whether she found another school. That experience shook my heart and I said that if I was able to something for that girl, I could have certainly done it. However, I was too young to stand a fight with primary eight students. In addition, all those wrongdoing were done in collusion with teachers. It was a very serious problem. That experience marked my life so that I will never forget it.

00 :10 :55 :13

So, one of the facts that made me help people is the grief I had because of that young girl. I saw that people were still being persecuted because of the fact that they are Tutsis; and really I see no difference between us, it was too hard for me to support. So, I decided to help though I had nothing like power. I was a soldier of a very low rank; I was Corporal while there were Colonels, Commanders, Majors and many other commissioned and non-commissioned officers who were powerful in the army. I decided:” Anyhow it may be, as a soldier, I will do as possible as I can.” I did it in that extent; I did not expect any reward. There are some who come to me and say:” Why are you keeping that for yourself? Why do not you tell about it? Why isn’t it written? Why isn’t it published on radios?” However, I know that I did it by myself, I did not seek any advice from anyone, I did not do it under

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any pleas and I did not do it for any price. I know that as long as I am with God, he is the only one who will reward my benevolence. But it is also very good when one come to express his thanks; it improves relationships and good cohabitation. It is not very worth for me to be thanked; the essential is that I have to know that all the people are the same. What I did was from my heart; it was my aim to make sure that everyone has his rights respected without persecuting people because of what they just are. I acted under that directive; I was not expecting any prize.

00 :12 :38 :11

MARTIN This is something very pleasing; either for yourself or for the whole Rwandan society in general for the fact that you happened to help people who are still alive. It is very praiseworthy. I now want to ask you a question. You said that you had a low rank in the army. There were others who had high ranks such as Majors and Colonels but who did not do thing to save people’s lives though they were able to save a whole sector or even a district. There are even those of low rank like you who unfortunately went on killing instead of helping you to save people. What can you tell to such people that I permit myself to call good-for-nothing. They did not use their power to save lives and in contrast, they invested all of their might in mobilizing people to kill. You are now enjoying life with people you saved whereas those good-for-nothing are wandering abroad, some are dead and others are being prosecuted for not having saved people instead of killing. What is your message to those good-for-nothing?

00 :13 :46 : SILAS It would be worth if I could say it such that they

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07 hear me. I am sure that everywhere they are, they are not proud of them at all. I am myself ashamed of the fact that I have been a soldier in the national army which exterminated its own population. I feel so sad because of that. However, when I entered the army, I did not know that things will turn out so awfully. I entered the army before war and it just fell on me like that. In the directives of the army, I knew that the first purpose was to protect the integrity of the nation and that of the population. I never knew the army could be used to kill innocent people, I never knew it was possible. The army alone would have totally hindered the genocide to happen. The soldier who led Gako military camp would have stopped genocide throughout Bugesera; he was able to do that.

Of course, it might have been a bit difficult but it would have been just easy to order soldiers to stay where they were. Obviously, stubborn soldiers would have disobeyed but in the army, orders are rarely flouted and punishments to recalcitrant soldiers are generally very severe. What happened was so awful that it is not enough to call the killers good-for-nothing, I do not see what compares exactly to what they did. It is wildness. We cannot compare them to dogs because a dog looks after the house so that when any danger comes from outside, it barks and his master knows that a stranger is around.

What happened was just wildness. You cannot imagine that a soldier who knows that his first responsibility is to protect people and their goods and he stays there doing nothing while people are being killed, their houses demolished, their cars

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stolen and lots of kinds of chaos spreading in the whole country. It is not worthy of the happening of such atrocities when a soldier is leading a troop in a district, in a province or anywhere else. That is what happened in ISAR Karama; People died while a military camp was around doing nothing. It is a shame.

00 :16 :09 :23

MARTIN By the way, there are some people who did like you, they are not very many but there are in the country. They helped people in need. I can give you an example, there is a man at Kigali called Gisimba Damas; there are old women at Ruhango like Sulo Karuhimbi. There are some who saved people knowing that they could loose their own lives consequently. God has been with them so that all the people they helped are still alive. There are of course, though very few, they are being thanked a lot. I want now you tell us:” How do you think these people who saved others should be thanked for all benevolence they showed?”

00 :16 :49 :14

SILAS I cannot say that they should be thanked like this or that. But accordingly to the fact that none expected such benevolence to happen at the extent to save people until they are still alive today, I can say that it even enough to talk about it. Doing will make those who did genocide understand that they should not have done it. They are now bearing genocide consequences too. It is a good thing to talk about people who saved others so that those who did genocide feel ashamed of what they did. I now see that the life I am having now is very peaceful whereas those who did genocide are struggling of lots of

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problems. Some the soldiers we lived together fled abroad, they can hardly come back in the country. Civilians who did genocide are struggling too, they wonder:” Where shall I spend this night?” Others did not confess their crimes and beg for pardon, they say:” I am at risk to be put in jail for tens of years.” I think that people who were benevolent have been of big importance that should help other people change their minds. Maybe people could have imagined that all Hutus were implied in genocide but it is not true. Revealing that some of them helped people who were hunted can be a good lesson to the ones who did genocide so that they can even change their minds and consider the graveness of what they did.

00 :18 :43 :17

MARTIN Now I would like you tell us in a half minute about this old woman Mudede Perpetue. How did you meet? Where did you meet so that you came to save her? When did you meet and in what situation? Please tell us.

00 :18 :56 :19

SILAS I have already talked about it in short but if I sum on, I met her near Mbyo. At the proximity of Mbyo center. Not exactly at Mbyo. We met at the frontier between Mayange sector and Mbyo sector. It was a woody countryside; the forest reached Camp Jeunesse. It was an area covered of bushes but now it is farmed and there are gardens; that is where we met. I talked much about how we met and how I put her in a bush, how I came back to take her away, how I accompanied her, how we arrived to Burundi and how we parted. I all explained.

00 :19 :48 :11

MUDEDE My name is Perpetue Mudede. I was born in Kanazi, Kanzenze commune. I live at Nyamata

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city.

00 :20 :02 :19

MARTIN We want you tell us in detail how genocide happened. How did it begin? Where were you when it began? What exactly happened? How did you know about the beginning of genocide?

00 :20 :15 :22

MUDEDE We lived at Mayange in this same sector. Habyarimana died on Wednesday and knew about his death on Thursday morning. People started shouting:” We are dead, we won’t live.” And many other sayings like that. From Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday things were turning out badly. It was around 2pm when we fled to Rebero. A lot of people were gathered there. Our cows had been eaten in 1992 and we were moving with some the survivors. We went to Rebero on Sunday and we spent the night there. On Monday, Interahamwe attacked us and men tried to fight them with stones. We spent the whole day there. We were still there on Tuesday and that same day night, my husband said:” Let us flee to Burundi.” We were with my brother and many others. We left at probably 11pm if I remember well. When we arrived at Gakindo it was already morning. My husband hid us in a bush with some other children. I was the only adult apart from my husband; others were my children. He told me:” I am going to see where others are so that we fix a rendezvous of our departure.” We were with many other women.

We stayed in the waiting for the night to move to Burundi. He went away and from the evening until the night, we waited for his return in vain. I also was with my youngest child. We were with many children. There were our neighbors’ amongst ours.

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My husband had been telling them to keep quiet when they wanted to cry of hunger saying:” Don’t cry; I will get you what to eat.” We waited for my husband from the evening until morning and he was not still back. In the night I was asking my child whom you saw talking to Jules, he is my oldest child. I asked him:” What do you think of your father? Do you think he is still alive?” He replied:’’ I do not know, maybe he has been killed.” In the morning, I told him:” Come with me, let us go to Camp Jeunesse and see whether we can get a help.” We went and arrived to Camp Jeunesse. There was a man called Karinganire, he was a Hutu but he was married with a Tutsi. We thought he would help us. They were cows at Camp Jeunesse and I bought milk for my children to drink. They did not drink a lot, they just couldn’t. There were men saying:’’ Let us go back to Rebero and check whether there may be any survivors to knock out.”

We bought milk and it started raining. It rained cats and dogs. When it was raining, there were men who were sharpening their machetes. A young girl came to us troubled and said:” Old woman, get up and flee; they are sharpening machetes to cut you.” The man we had come to look for was not around and we were alone there. We suddenly got up and climbed a hill called Rugarama. I was with my children and many other women. I glanced behind us while we were climbing the hill and I saw my husband. He had been lost. He could not find the bush he left us in. He just thought we had been killed. I told my child:” See who is coming.” He was very happy that he fell down saying:” Are you still alive?” He

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replied:” Shut up; this forest is full of killers, there are hunting us to kill us. They are all around here looking for people to kill.” It was yet around 3 or 4 leading to 5 pm.

We moved on to Mbyo and met other people from Rusagara; they were acquaintances of ours. They are still alive. We hided again in a bush and already the night fell in a few moments. We sloped down the hill to the valley of Mbyo. We passed near a house and my husband got immediately killed there. Killers came running after us with bludgeons asking:” Where are you coming from and where are you going?” my husband answered:” We are fleeing.” They asked:” What are you fleeing?” He could not answer as they were armed of bludgeons and machetes. They suddenly cut him and he fell down dead.

00:26:06:05

MUDEDE I did not know how my children died; themselves they did not know exactly what happened. They went this way and I went that way; I had a little child on my back, she was my niece. I continued wandering and I could not call for any help. I was looking for my children but I did not find them. I wandered around until I came to my husband’s body; I stared at him shortly and I continued my flight with my little niece. On my way, I collided with a person fleeing. I was scared and I asked:” Hey, how are you doing?” He looked at me; it was late in the night almost morning. He said:” Wasn’t I with you yesterday? I agreed. He asked then:” What about the people you were together, where are they?” I replied:” They are dead.” He continued:” Even the old man is dead?” I answered:” He is dead too.” I was somehow happy

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because I had found at least a man to walk with. We walked together; the rooster crowed once and twice early in the morning and the man disappeared. He may have thought:” This woman having a child on her back cannot go fast, she is wasting my time.” So he disappeared.

It was yet morning. I entered the big forest of Mpira. The forest was very dense; it was very difficult to advance. The bushes were too thick and high to be crossed. I tried hard to keep walking. Suddenly I saw four Interahamwe militiamen hunting people to kill. They came to me and asked:” Old woman, where are you going?’’ I did not answer. They repeated:” Where are you going? They continued:’’ Give us money, otherwise we will kill you.” I had some money on me, we had sold a cow which was infertile and my husband had told me:” Let us sell this cow but you have to keep the money so that we later on buy another.”

On our way fleeing, we had shared the money. He kept the half amount and I kept the other. My clothes were wet; they rummaged through them and took the whole money I had. They told me:” You can go but do not tell to anybody that we took your money.” I was wondering:” Shouldn’t I ask them where is the way to Burundi? ” I did not know where to; I was absent-minded. I was too tired to keep the child on my back and I wondered:” How have come to keep this child on my back since a whole week?” The child was telling me:” Aunty, I want you take me to your home and give me banana juice before you bring me back to my mother.” I knew she was right. We spent our nights in the bushes like wild animals;

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and in the morning, we walked again and again. Later on, we came to reach this street leading to the military camp. We just sloped down it ignoring where it was leading us. The child was sniveling of hunger and thirst. I was looking for a habitation where to ask water for the child to drink; I couldn’t find any. I came back to this street and suddenly a car came behind us. There were two men with Silas aboard. They stopped the car. It was around 3 pm. Before they came, I had been arrested by Interahamwe. Interahamwe asked the soldiers:” Let us slay her!” The soldiers answered:” No, you can let us handle her by ourselves, you cannot be stronger than us.” Interahamwe went away and I stayed with the soldiers.

00 :30 :24 :13

MUDEDE They asked me:’’ Where do you live?” I answered:” I live at Mayange.” They continued:” Where are you going?’’ I replied:” I am coming from home and I am going home.” They said:” How that is possible, you are coming from home and you are going home? What family do you come from?” I told them the name of my brother, the father of the child I had on my back. They said:” That is where you are so going?” I said:’’ Yes.” And I was really telling the truth. The other two soldiers went away and I stayed with Silas. Silas said:” I want to ask you one question:” Can you deny that you are a Tutsi with such a nose?” I replied:” Yes, I am a Tutsi.” I was wishing inside me he kills me. I had gone off living. I would not even live when my children were dead and my husband likewise. Everybody was dead, how should I live? Why should I live? I agreed:” Of course I am a Tutsi.” He repeated:” Are you really a Tutsi?” I said:” Yes I am.” He said again:” You

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could not deny it with such a nose. You are really a Tutsi.” I still agreed. The soldier said then:” I am going to try my best so that I don’t be responsible of the shedding of your blood.”

The other soldiers had already left. I was hearing the hums of car in the camp but I did not know I was in the camp. I believed I was to Burundi. He asked me:” Did you know where you were going?” I said:” No, I did not know.” He said then:” You are now in the military camp, you were going closer to your killers. I therefore came back on my mind; I just believed I was at the frontier to Burundi. Because of tiredness, I couldn’t know where I was coming from and where I was going; though I had not even known that area before. I just believed I was at the frontier to Burundi.

The man took me in a bush and said:’’ Stay here and don’t move. I will be back to see you. Even if you don’t see me, don’t move. Haven’t you seen Interahamwe hunting you?” I imagined he meant that I should remain there to death. He went and came back in the evening calling:” Old woman!” I replied:” Yes please!” He said:” Are you still there?” I said:” Yes I am.” He lifted the child up. I was tired to death and my feet were hurting. We went through the bushes; we couldn’t pass by the common streets. I thought we were near to the frontier. He started talking to me:” Can you remember me if we meet somewhere else?” I said:” Yes of course.” I was lying. I wasn’t able to recognize anybody. He was wearing military uniforms and I lied I could recognize him. He asked then:” Can you tell me now what happened to you? Did you have children?” I replied:” As much as these bushes.” He asked again:” Are they

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dead? And your husband?” I answered:” They are all dead.” I explained him how my husband died because I was with him when he died.

We walked and we were close to the frontier to Burundi he told me:’’ That is the Burundian frontier. I am not allowed to go till there; you will continue and arrive there. You will be received and you will spend your night there. Tomorrow morning you will be sent to the camp where other refugees are.” If your brother is already there you will se him; and if he is not there, he cannot be at home either.

I was just there keeping a watchful eye on him and I returned to my usual bush. I slept there.

We reached the main road that led us to the frontier. People who were arriving received water to drink and food. We were also registered. When people were many enough, a car was called on by telephone to drive them to the camp.

00 :35 :00 :01

MARTIN You told that you met this soldier wearing military uniforms and he put you in a bush. He had ordered you not to move. You as a fugitive who had seen your whole family killed and who were dealing with a soldier; we know that in some areas soldiers where killing too. Did you trust that he may not kill you?

00 :35 :22 :17

MUDEDE No. I did not trust him because for one to trust somebody, you have to be scared first of all. The fact that I could not even remember whose child I had on my back proves that I was not scared at all. When he asked me if I was a Tutsi and warned me not to deny with a nose as mine, I just wished

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he kills me. I was thinking about the fact that I was fleeing because of people who were killing us; at one moment, I lost my mind, I was fearless and I wished he kills me. At least he would be alone to…

00 :35 :59 :10-

MUDEDE NO SIGNAL

00 :37 :27 :16

MUDEDE God helps people through other people. He uses other men in his place as his own tool. I told him that.

00:37:40:13

MUDEDE NO SIGNAL

00:39:58:11

MARTIN NO SIGNAL

00:40:34:05

SILAS WEAK SINGAL

00:00:01:20

Silas I was saying that I have a pain on my heart. I understand that a genocide survivor is somehow happy to have just survived but on the other hand he can feel sorrowful because of his relatives who perished during genocide. There is something that really touches my heart. When I see an old woman coming to visit me at home, as she has been telling, I feel very happy and I call on my other friends to greet her. She says:” I cannot see how to reward this man because of his kindness; I do not have anything to give him.’’ It the same thing that happens to everybody.

I feel very happy to see that. However I also feel sad when I think about the fact that she would be happier if she was with the whole members of her family. It is very painful to see how she enjoys life despite her family is not there. This makes me deduce that though she seems happy she has

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limits. In any case, whatever pleasing thinks she sees, whatever wealth she can earn, there are always limits to her happiness. She inevitably thinks about his people who died and she must have pain on her heart. It is the same thing for me. I sometimes feel happy but always there are limits. I happen to think about something else than happiness. I cannot imagine that a family which counted ten or twenty people, with whom we used to sit together eating, chatting, discussing and that at the end there only stills one of them because it is the one I was able to save. God helped me doing that and that one is the only survivor today. It very difficult to bear that imagination that forces people to live without their family relatives. It is unbearable for our hearts.

00:01:54:08

MARTIN Did you happen to know people who killed your husband?

00:02:00:12

MUDEDE I did not know exactly who they are. The only thing I know is that they are people of Mbyo. There is someone who lastly told me about the death of my children. I will go to learn more this Thursday.

00:02:22:20

Martin How was your husband killed? Was he cut with a machete?

00:02:25:13

MUDEDE Yes, he died cut.

00:29:10 Martin Don’t you know about your children’s killers?

00:02:31:15

MUDEDE No. But there is one who came to visit the woman living beside my house and gave me some detail. I was a busy preparing for my niece’s wedding that happened last Saturday and I promised to go talk

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about that this Thursday.

00:02:56:03

Martin What means that you have not yet buried any of the genocide victims of your family?

00:02:59:14

MUDEDE Apart from my two children and my brother.

00:03:28:03

Martin When you look at those people who did genocide; of course we know that people do not react identically to the same matter; however, we can consider the fact that one who loves God and respects human rights should not do or react as those who killed. It cannot be a response to our problems. It cannot be good example either.

Let us assume that people who killed your husband, who killed your other family relatives or who just killed in general come to beg your pardon and avow that they killed your people. Do you think you can pardon them?

00:04:19:20

MUDEDE You know what? We are recommended through God’s commandments to pardon those who trespass against us as Jesus himself did on the cross. If they could at least come and confess saying:” It is me who killed your people, I thrown them there.” I can pardon them, because in any case my people can never resurrect. That is one. The other thing is that I cannot pardon them just because I don’t have any other choice but because I am a Christian who respects God’s commandments

00:05:26:02

Martin I think there is a thing we don’t have to say like that; it is not good to say that you can pardon because whether you do it or not your people won’t resurrect. One who has to pardon should do

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it from the deepest of his heart and he has to accept that…I don’t see how to define it, it is not a mistake; it is a crime beyond our imagination. So when you have to pardon, you have do it with your heart otherwise you can even do it for God but without your own consent. People do not pardon for the dead to resurrect or not. So what I want to know is if you, from the deepest of your heart, can you pardon a killer who avows his crime; a killer who can come to you and tell that he killed your people and shows you where he thrown them? Can forgiveness come from your heart and pardon that man?

00:06:14:04

MUDEDE I told you but you may have not understood. There are two kinds of forgiving or maybe it is me who understand it differently. I said that you can pardon a man just because you do not have something else to do, you cannot harm him at all; of course I cannot harm anybody, not so? But I, if I have to pardon; I can do it as a Christian, as God recommend it to us. That is what I said.

00:06:49:04

MARTIN Let me talk again about the issue of killing. During the genocide of 1994, women suffered too much. They were separated with their children to be killed, little children were killed, some women were raped, others were widowed and others were infected of several diseases in such a way that life of widows who survived is very lamentable. I would like you tell something to these people; many of them are sick and who are struggling because of genocide and its consequences. So, you as a genocide survivor; what is your message to these people?

00:07:43:1 MUDEDE What people?

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00:07:44:07

MARTIN I mean women who survived from genocide and who are now condemned to bear its consequences. Those who are experiencing miserable life.

But also, there are children who survived. Some of them were infected too and they are living in hard conditions.

00:08:05:15

MUDEDE Of course, we have too many problems. I am now the only responsible of the rest of my family regardless to my age; however, on one side I feel happy. You wonder probably how I am happy. I still have children, I had given birth to ten children among whom five girls and five boys. From the whole ten only three survived. I also raise four orphans in the house you saw. The fact that I say I am happy is that there are some widows as old as me or even older who do not have any child survived. I thank a lot God to have given me those few survivors and orphans to bring up.

I did not do anything to deserve that. I was lucky to have some survivors. That is what makes my joy now. That is why I say that I am happy and sad at once. I told you that I had so many children as much as these bushes. So, it is mixed; I am happy and sad at once.

00 :10 :05 :16

MARTIN Genocide damaged everything. Apart from people who were atrociously killed; goods and many properties were deeply damaged. Houses were demolished, cows were eaten and everything just decayed. Survivors are then obliged to begin their lives from zero. I want so you tell us about life of

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after genocide; how are you living?

00 :10 :31 :09

MUDEDE I don’t how to explain it. We do not have a lot to do; we just live as it comes. We are only led by God. Only God is looking after our life. However, our farms are there full of bushes and ruins. We are now missing mightiness to cultivate.

00 :10 :58 :20

MARTIN Old woman; there are people who will come from you as your own descendants or even your children and their future families. What kind of Rwanda do you want them to live in? Do you wish they live in a Rwanda different from the one you knew?

00 :11 :08 :24

MUDEDE I wish them a wonderful Rwanda; I wish them love to each and everyone. I don’t want them to discriminate as it happened for us. What happened to us was segregation. It is horrible to come to kill people because they are Tutsis knowing that whoever a man is, he has blood flowing in his veins. I wish them to love each other as they love themselves, may they cohabitate. The main cause of our misfortune was lots of conflicts based upon ethnic groups. Ones seeing others as Hutus and others as Tutsis. However, from the beginning, God did not create us differently so as ones to be Hutus and so forth.

00 :11 :59 :24

MARTIN Silas; as to conclude, let me say that the courage you have had to save other people is really praiseworthy. Even your descendants and family relatives will be proud of you. Your children will grow up knowing that their father has been a hero who tried his best to save people’s lives where everybody was doing nothing. I want you give us your message. What do you wish to your

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descendants? Do you think what you did is a good thing to hand on your children? Accordingly to what you have experienced by yourself; what kind of Rwanda would you like to pass on your children, your descendants and to the whole Rwandans in general. What do you wish Rwanda looks like and how do you wish Rwandans behave?

00 :12 :50 :11

SILAS Thank you. In what concerns the shape of Rwanda I wish, it is of course good to make good wishes; I can even say that it is a wish I have since a long time. We almost always say that bad things come from the devil though it is sometimes ourselves who give him a chance; but the devil also induces people to do bad things; it enters in the hearts of people and manipulates them. However, there is an important thing we know; it that God is there, God is peace and God is love.

So the main thing I wish to my children and to the whole Rwandans in general is that Rwandans should be Rwandans full of love, Rwandans who fight for their life, Rwandans who know that they have to cohabite together. A Rwandan who knows that he has the right to live; a Rwandan who wishes something good to happen to him and wishes the same to happen to his neighbor.

In few words, my wishes for Rwanda are too many. It is the same as I wished a long time ago. Our government of unity, the Rwandan government, tries his best to lead to good purposes but it is big task to teach this to people. What we are now dealing with is Gacaca jurisdictions, we all see how Rwandans get on with them. It is sometimes lamentable. There are things that are really lamentable, we always talk

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about that. Our government is very merciful, our leaders gave us a good example of forgiveness, they expressed us their need for us to cohabitate in peace. They really tried their best. However, Rwandans are still having hardened hearts. People are hiding useful thing; what might not be. Genocide happened and has been stopped. No one wishes it happens again but still the truth of what happened during it is being hidden. One can wonder what interest is behind that. When we listen to what is being said around in the country, people are still being killed. You can hear that a person was killed somewhere; another was cut with machetes elsewhere.

You hear about a person who did genocide and who has been released from prison having killed again someone around. And when you see the efforts of our government to make people cohabite and the pardon that has been granted to criminals; it very deceiving. It does not happen because of lack of prayers for unity and for people to have merciful hearts so that they come to live together again. It is getting stuck but we will keep trying our best with other kind-hearted people to get things back in order. It is obvious that bad people will always exist but if at least they could get fewer and fewer. If we are very lucky, they will end up with their wildness and all the people will be kind-hearted.

MARTIN Thank you.

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… · Web viewTime code Person speaking Words 00: 00:17:09 Martin Today is 27th February 2007.We are at Matayo’s house. It is in a region called Mbyo; we are going to talk with