0.•.•.Pow~•.

DO1\- ka'W'.IBaoD. TOTJeavar'J' 1911Prot. KaDel

••• The powerpreble has a double aspect: one. of control Un.

fOrces. an4 the other o~ cQll'tro11ins powerf\1J.decision-MIters. 'I am

tempted to use the Veb1en-Ape8 ~OftD11atiODo~ the selt-propeW.nS

'technologyas sort o~ the bailie under3Ting deterai.DaI1't ot cbuapi and

then i~ you start v1:th that you can use Pol8Dyito talk abo11't a

cUtte:rence between nOD-JlllLrket-tiocie'tie•••.-or What are re~ pre-Jl8Z'ket

societiea-e.nd market soc:1eties. And the kind of difference Y'Ouhave

is that in & pre-market society the we;y'teclmologr has its IIOR notable

upset'tins iDIpact 1s-we 't&lltedabout it last time-this intrusion of

'the barbari.cs. Here Y'OUbaTe 8t&t. developed, like Messopotaaianstatee.,.

or Egypt. around thea. sreat irrigation s7st&l8. . Then you pt on the

trinps: peopJ.e 'Who 4eYelop typic&1J¥ IIOJ'e powerf\1J.Jlili tar:f technology.

The chariot Cc.lft in. or sc:Dt'tl11ncCOllIeS in, aDd the whole IliDcien'tworld

••• di8ra,ped.. fte tec1molol7 kind of vork8 itsel1' out, upeettiDc the

et,1If.1ibri- 'bet".. etatea u4 .001&1~J aml1O'l haft '•••• ~iOD

to '.dl'l"Ol". vit1da the .,nea; __ ••• triJdJI& 0". 18 tMM idn­.lou r.rc. oatai_. Aa4.0,. 0CN14w.1k of the ,8bUlt7 of .,.,- IID4.

lD41Y14Da1ato nPt'ift adoope with prob1ae "- dn1 ,vith. '1._.' :',.

.4ietiaptah D&turalph••••• , OIl.' of the ~1D& PJ'Obl 1D--..

01' •. act 1m_lOll .a olriUl&Uon1. s-lin:l_' aAClridDs water

table8. __ 70U baft tbee. peat in'1caUOD~. '1."haft tile

prob~ of .oftI'Il"Uiac aD4 C'08lOll, 'the tol'Hba aN out c1an. uc1 8hMp

'.4 ••• ts ted. !D .1dftb& cv.1t!:n.tiOD prob~ 10Uhaft Oft1IJOPI1atlOD

aDd a.cn••• S ••• t of 1Im4 •.• 1'able tor "et~ 1aDc1. OM ot the

Kanel

-2-

reocouring ~hiDgB1. ¥bether ~e 80cial 111'''' aDdvhateYv papa1a~iOll

growth It •••. ate. 1. 84apteclto the reaouroea it 4eala with a4 the

te0hD01osf.cal...,.. 1~ !au ot 4eeHng witb the... 80 there'. tbat Jd.n4

ot teatinB ot II1'ste.: adapting to tbe tecbDo1olYa4 N8OQI'Oe

eoc1anmt. I ••••• ill. 1. 'to,rDbee'. theory. the theor7 of ~

reapcases. that II1'8MMl"UIl 1nto 4eollDeSbeca1J8et.., 0&11'" cope with

.a. ot the Datura1 pheDCMDa tbat tlur.1 UJIl••.• h. AD4thea 10U baft

the probls ot ccapetltlon between .ooial .".t_. nn4 ot t.Red

throulh coutant ~U'. aD4up•• t when-...thing DWintrude. that

~e 014 qat •• caD't cope with. lfow'. it ;yOu look at the rlae ot

JI&l"k.eteooftCIIlras against tha1; contrast tor pre-JllllZ'ketsooietie.. • • •

,... ldn4 ot thiDgBwe've talltec1about in this ' COQJ'8eare em the CDe

haD4_0IIMt upeets emphasizedb1'ee..ons an4 on the other ben4 8(81

aspects -.phaBize4 by Polazvi.

An we going to contrast the -.rut econcmes vi~ tld..

t,pe ot .ociety-the ccaing ot the market econOlllYaDdhowit reut. on

this tne ot society!

ee:..oa. talJta aboUt scae thiDp where the .oJ.Yingot certain

prob1.emBin these pre-Mrket societies J.e4 to the •• rpnce ot -.rUt

soo1eties. in partioulU' to 'the emergenceot eeaDCWd0 ponr. 1Ibat Ihave in Blindis the V8iY' he talks about the evolutiCDot propertT right8

as a va.yor cont&1D1ngarbitrary rules. Propert" i8 e•• ent1~ a

political i_sue. It'_ an issue or the weakneeding to .ecure pos•••• iou

by controlllng the Dtroq. Both these nobles, the teu4al lorc1a. and the

king.

- 3-

ADdhe t&1ks ot this •• a probl_ within these pre-MI'ket societies.;

A probJ._ ot arbitrary rule, aDdthe solution to it being the estab1ish­

ment ot restraint on arbitrary rule: the establisbJlant ot & consUtutiooal

goye~nt. ot a judiciary, ot the creation ot secure phy'sical })OBsession

ot property, these syateJIS, as a yay ot creating security tor the ~

managainst B)!'e powertul classes ot 19ovel'D1llent.'1'hiais one of the

tactors. Andyou can think ot it as a problea req.uiring aol~icm in

these h'ee-Ml'ket societies. But whenthis gets generated so that When

political torce and physical torce get restrained _4 :regulated.vben .'y,ou

establish a secure property and then add to it another deve1opllent, the

acti vity o-r the tows increases; and towns and merchants evolft their

customs. Someot these customs are incorporated into legal.ly ])l'Otected

security tor eD-rorcement:promises, negotiability, incorporation, and so

on.

As a result ot both ot these developments, property whichvas originally

protection -ror the weakbecomessomethingthat' s: very stroag; it then

becOlleSthe basis tor a IW kind ot paver: the powerot those whocontrol

large agregations ot property, to control employmentt control relationships

with other businesses and so on.

Wheredid you get the idea that property vas tor the weak?

He Sq8 that over and over again. Whenhe talks about the 41stinctiCID

between prerogative and cClIDIIIOnlaw. COJD)nlaw is somethingthat evolves

out ot assemblies ot people whoare equals and whohave to tight against

the rights ot superiors and kings. Property in a sense arises o'at ot the

overcomingot prerogati Yes.

- ...'l'heDyou have to define what you __ by the ocI 011people.

Becauseto ., miDdwbat rAwnnuI i. tal king about • • • i. tile eu.sti.Dotion

betveeD the royal preroaatiw aDdthe caam people. Bevas te1t!ng cd

the CC8IOJ'& people whowouldnowbe conceived . of &8 the people whoOODtrol

production. It's DeTerthe question o~ the c~n people.

Kanel series. You..,. start out rith

the b&roasapiut the king. It isn't every'bod;y. In one o~ those

chapters he ta.1.ksabout howthis ,.happens aequential1\Y. This protectiOll

ot the c~ lav gets extenclec1to one grCRlpaDdnot to aDother aa4 0D11

sraduaJ.q gets enlarged-that i., it gets extended to the baroDa. TheD

it's extended to the M1"OhaDts.Andhe sqs, in a V8T, wb;yisn't it

being extended to the labor unions! It isn't that it goes ame-tic~

to eTery'boc\y',but that it's a pattern of kind o~ extending it to rider

aDdrider groups; and it's & patt~~. th~t Qonce~~~ __CaD-.:~~ti~ be J~.M ,lit J-] 2('fV~ -~ ; ",,-f ~~ ~ ~-~~ v •.L~ I -;- ,exten4eclto e~~boq. IV o. 1.t~~L.l ~ ~ Ad)t..4.- ::t-!( ~ a.J~--"vf' ~

WouldTOUsq that it you used C~, ide. o~ howpropertT

nolTed-uaed by royal pewer and then by barons, and the merchant class,

are TOU.&¥ing then that it shifted back again into power tor the big

people!

Bo, it'. the emergenceot & newpower. '!'hi. i. a newclass. 11010 a

preexisting class. The very creation-the th.. is-the very creation, on

the one hand the containment ot the brute torce by establishing order17

procedures ot goverDMDt. This -.kes possible the rise ot a newgroup,

which becameswry powerful as a newgroup in a whole newworld. In &

newworld o~ industrialJ.sa, ot credit, incorporation, and so OD. This is

- 5 -

a ._ire1¥ new srouP, vh1ch i. P&I't17 M4e poII.ible beoaUaeor ~

u'ric •• which an created to generate &Nate!' securi't7 a4 peace 1Dthe

4eceleratiDg world of these feudal 'barons. ~But here property i. not .1ust llUl4, nav in •• bJmp.~

kind of starts out by deti.D1Dasecure poss•• si~. Thenit pts exten4ed.

Be .~.o IIlCb t1Jle on howit gRs exteDdedtrca plq'eica1 securit7 to

.force pram... aDdnepiability. B&Rthe main kind of starts theft

then pts exten4e4.

But if you're talking about a newgroup, whoare in 'this nw

'!he -.rchaDts, the •• in industry (t1le capitalists).

"40 were oriainaU;y weak! '!'hoseare the ve&kpeople ".'.,. been

talkins abouttTheyare saae of the weak. Theywere 8IIODC .the weak. Bot eftJ',V'boc\v

whovas weakgot strong. By and large this vas a new'clus. So that

the thing that's kind ot intriguing here is that in a sense it's the

solution to the probleIUSwithin SOllIe of these other societies: the

containing of the pb;y'sicaland poll ti.cal power that by its Tery' solutioo---- .•.

prorides the basis tor the rise of econcxaicpower. This is his theM.~.•... ---------~~"'--------

ADdthen the other aspect of it is tbe one that ca.s trca PoJ.aD:yi.

AndI think these are compJ.ementary.You'\I I sf need all .of thee••

P01azO'i 7' I 4't ~haaized the emer8lfDceot labor aDdlaDd markets--the

uJdng ot labor aDdlaDd commoclities•. The elements bere are the enclosures.

the oreatiODot this torced labor--k I i It e'ricted rrc. the land, the

shedding o't social obligatioDS to the workers by the upper classes, the

-6-the abolis1Wasof ~he proteotiw deY:l.e•• me the ]IOGr 1a8. !be IIIl1

1'e8111~_~ labor :l.nto a eowm4:l.t)f'. Whenu ill these tree MIbt

societies, ~ I'Ole as a laborer or as a 1.4lord or .~ i. JlIoft

of a pneral social qat_. That is the rewar4&. the occupatioraa, and

the statue are aU tied Up together in the cut. Q'llteJIland :I.a .•the

qate of manOrial asriCNlture; but it'. a seri •• qt cJumaee soiDa OIl

aDdstartiDg in WesternBurope"that ~ created a reaene U'IV' at the

uneaplOY'eci:people ':.whoha.•.•no secure aoc1al pOai'tiOll,wboare

aw.Uabl. tor hire aDdtire like COIBIOditi... ADdthe creation ot the

-net Ron •. is .111.. Ie the result of these noluUoD8 that 'botIa cc..aa.

talks about and Polan7:l.talks about, CcDDoDseJII})bMisiqone pan cd it

and Po1aD7:I. BDOther. The thing that \ 7 1 if giftS the COIltran here i.that it 701l 80 to t01'llll1ationthat I had 011 thi. powerproble OIl1;h.

CODtroUingof torces, ,'the COlttroll.:1Dgof poverM cteci.ion .an. this

nolution sanerates sOlllethingnew; it generates ae the newpcwertul

'decision ~era the cepit&Usts. as against the barons and kiDp •

.Alao:I.n tens of torces. it .~h:I.Dc nevi it generate.

these ecollClllicforces so that whereas previous~ technological cbMp eruptecl

thrOU8hthe b&l'luJri.aI'18 intruding on the ac:.m Bllpire, DOV teelmo1oCical

chaDgeerupts IIUCh lIOn CODt~, and flY8'q n•••.iD.•.•ticm. •• it pta

incorporated into a production process has price 8D4 :l.nCCBean4 -.P107-

,taeDtCODBequenC.S.Andyou ha.•.e a looser iD8t1tuticm qat_. aach

grea~ wlnerab:f.lity; and technology kind ,ot works,itself cut· "nt:f.~

through what we learned in econom1.ctheory about all of these aarl:f.Da1

-1-oaacl1'tiOll8I taetol'.-taftoI'-. tacrtar-proaun, ~ II:b4 at

'thiDa. So then's a Dew' wlnerabllity, uul1ibere's & newve:t tar

~ chaDp to kiD4 0'1 1IOrlt itaeU CRIt.

!8i1= can 101& explain 'that further! You said in the barbario stages

'there vas technolosical change, bUt with the cle~ 0'f1l.b1e •••

capiw.u.st clus 1'O'l'ft getting aD eraptlce ~ teo'bDo1olleal •••• .,

~. It VOl'b4ittereD~. '!'here'. sort ot "1lW iut1'tut1GD&1.u tor

chaDp to \.'OCCUr. You take sClleth1Dg like the cute 8181;81 or 1aro»1­

-=rial asriculture; well, this has chaDp 1n 1t,but it'. JdDc1of

na'tic ;~becaU8eit 88sips very specific role. to people, mdtthe8e

roles are herecl1t&ry. 'l'his 1s the kiad of thins, you talk a'boat the

. clitterence between ascr:l.pt:l.veeocie't7 and • • • what aD 10Ucall it.

what'. the contrast! There is the cOD1i1"ast 0'1 assisnins roles bJ'

.tatus ar inheriteDce VB. to us:l.snfnl ••• Is 11; achiev.,a1; VB.

what!

But the POint 1. that you pt BCMtb:Laa like Jcrpt ar ID4ia ,.

'the ~ Bllpire. thes. are la'rp ee-pJ.ex .~leti •• , but ill & s••• b.r

CCDtnet to JD1ern syst_ where change 00CUJ'8thrOUlh -.rJtet ton ••

lIOre a4aptecl to ldDd ot a speciali ••.tion ot tunctiou 'than to CODtinuoas

chMp. They're w,, II wlDerable. CbaDp t1PI~ OCCNZ'8 tJrca GIlt.ide

.and comes rushing in as some barbarians 4eftlop figbt:l.ng ~ hars. they

Just cannot be opposed. The &y.ta Just O&D't cope with thea. 11II4 then

cbaDge comes in ti1 ~ &4017's the new technOlogy.

Whenyou. get a -.rket society, change occurs t~ inTeJrtiOll. aD4

some~ starts using 1t, 8Dd he outproduces other people, &Del It pts

-8-

Bowwould70Il ezp1alB 'the ettecrt o-rohanp OIl .~

OOaDtriest!'ca the Westernworld &8 beiq ditrerent tbaD a banbari.o • • • •

The 014 torces 40 DOtatop vor1dna either. 1'heIaropeaDavitia > Iu ~'their tireara are BO a'tah tor the uti.... peoplesot ~O& aa4 . ~. IJ- ,..vJW;.'

Atrica 8IICl Asia. That .till operates too. BIlt both vl"hiD 'the

8J'8t- aDdin 8.IV'boc1Tthat gets brousht into the intel'llatioaa1 6OODCIQ.

l-r you srow cotton 18 Egypt, and rice iB BarM.aDdso OIl, ~q that

happeD8in Lonc1OIlettect. the cotton growingf'orces ot the world. !9ds

i. the newthing. Thi. is the tincl of di.ruption 8Dclvu1JlerabiUt7 ot

'the social 87s.••• that p~ was ta:Ud.ngabout. Whatyou haft hen 1.

the kind of .0ci&1.charap that briDgs a neww1Derablli1i7. n••. taro ••

aDda nev locus of econ-.c power. a nev locus ot power8D4th•.• ~

the dimensions cbaDp in a 'fe17' iDIportat -.amer.

Let _ 81va you 3118ta 11ttl. bit more em that. ad th_ we'11 ta1Jt

about it next time. O~ CloD talk about the a4aptat:1ODto aU ot th •• e

cb8qes. auclI'.3ust goins to kind of outline th8l: there are all Jd.JUla

of a4&pta't:l.onsto this. Oneot th. is 3ust the KepeeDian deft10IBellt

and t1scal policy» the :K'e,ynesi8llsolution to proble. of 1JJl8IP103ment

and business C',V'Cle.

~n you have the kind of thing that Oalbraith ta1ka about in

the Bev xM1I8trial state. b7 the very increase in sl •• of busi•••• by

what he calls the revised sequence of MDagfns d•••• d. 1ID4 b1 •••

the change in the relationship ot govermaentto busl8es•• vb:tch i. in pert;

traD bwiir.aes8. tbat busine8s creates a lot of 1Dcnu•• ill 8ecn11"it7 U

'We w1Jlerab1e world ot -.rket torce8 bT the 1dD4aor thinII' that

O&1bra:l.th ta1.k8 about :In. the New Indwrtrial state.

Aacl_ a _tter f4 taett 0&lbra11i1l rai8es the question or whether

aU8Z'tet 6OCGCIQ'doH sUll mst becauae of these deft1OpIeD.ts :lD 'the

••. :!n4ustrial state &Il4then ill teft18 ot the e4aptatiou of tbe pcNV of

the ecOllOJlic decision uken; there 70U haft what we lookeclat iD Cal I U

aDd Pear1B8D. The deft10paeat of umCIIUJ. the at~ to pzoo4uce nat

the.r 0&11 oonatitutiOD&1 govermaeIlt •• d indwltri.. IoIr U J'OU ., 'back

to PolaD;yi at tbis B'tage y-ouoan ask "Whetherin l'o1a1q!t. terM tUN :la

.till a market ecollOJlll'. .And that would be aD iDte1'estiDs paper. It ••••

to _ that SOM ot the vu1Derabil1ty ot the aarket eo~ :l.s stUl tbeft.

that :l.s, the struc'tUreot these business units is still ~t YIIlMnble____ -- "~~ ._~, •••_"lo<lo.<, .•••~ "'T~.-.,_

to ohanp, S'l' ot one camp~-:to",!!!e mbnd9AQAl; Mena OIl 'the ~-·'"'·~.'c_ .•.....,...~-.f'_.··.-,,.,..,,,._.·--.- ,.,~'cC"_·_·~'~'~·· -, ••_. - .

of another cOIIpaDl'.-~"i"_._ ...~..""'_,,

..OIleot ~ tb1Dgs that thq've c!oneis that theY' haft iDten&a1f,sec1

auch ot the chaDp aDdadjusted. that is. they're 80 bis DOV. IIIl4 this

mariq toward conglailorate8 includes 80 1lI8IQ'cU.fl'eftUt f.u4wltri... m4 80

BOb ot the industrial 1'eseuch 8Dddevel.opmeDt'. work.is withiD the 8OOIl"

, that a lot JII)N of this has cameunder control. '~8 cioes Dot appeer 80

JII10b to the tira as an oats:l.de deTe10pmentby' a cCllll,P4Ri t.ozo ha'riDs au

impacton its prices in markets. It's morethat ae-etbiDg has 0CCNftCl

within the C01IIp8D;y, and the CCIIIIIP8D7's decision about howrap1~ to

iDtJ'Oduce it arad so OD.

QQe!tion

-].0-

It' clbe 1dDclof interesting 'to speculate OIl this t but vha't bas

A!IIMrpclis certaiD.l1'DOt8ZlTof Po~' s DOD-IIU'ket societies: recU•••

tribUti'ft systems or reciprocal systems or houeho1d1ng that we ta1kecl

about. It'. ldncl of a new81'8temvh1.chhas -.a;r tea:tures of a .arket

ecoDCIID.Y'but has a hellUYalot more security in it than the ldD4 ot s;yetea

'that Po1aDyiwas talldq about. This SeeM to _ what baa h&ppeDe4.

still w1Derable 'to this out-naDltiDg, I think of this c:haD&eoocvr1Dg

'ria sClleb~ introducing aD Umovation aDel ba'ri.Dg an impact on prices

as aD out-tlanking ot existiDg situation taciDg aU other til'M. That

caD . still happen, but on the other hand business has grown 80 1&I"p

8Dclso tiTeraitied. and so iJIIportaD~ inwlvecl in research aDd.4e'nlDp­

.-.nt that probab17_ch change tod.tQ'~curs not as •. surpriains claTe10pMDt

hanDg •. price illpact but as .00000th1Dgthat occurs vi thin a ~ aDd

sub3ect to it. decisions, probab17not to sit em it. If they' sit on it,

~.., .,. _ •• they llisht be outt1aDltedby sCllebocJ¥else tvi DSa4vaD'tap

of it •••• Whetherthey haTe a great 4n1 of CCID1;rolin 'the ••• r in

which they iDtrocluceit, howtast thq izrtrocluceit. In tem8 ot Po1lDl1'.

cJ.aa.itication it's kind of a DeW' 87stem .d pzoobab17with BOlle-.rket

teatures. Galbraith probab17 goes too tar in aqing the arketing qat.bas disappeared.

Wherewould the Otrt-tlanldq COM trcJm in this system! Vou14 it be

that eY817OU. has the tecbDologyf The research and techDo1ogyball &ODe

on, but SOlleODltfeels that .Cll8h0W'the tt- is ript to introcluce the

DeW iDftDtiOllT

Kanel

-11-I lupp08e, but I don't kDowthat auch about it. I set the t••1iDc

that it', Tery' 1aportaDt in this research deftJ.ot-nt PM to keep

abreast. Youcan't tall behind; it you do tall behind, it you set to be

ldn4 ot a cODBenatiTe, cc:atortable cOJll.P&DT,you're in tor surprises •

.ADdI sues- thi, has happenedto U. S. steel, to the whole U. S.

steel illdustry» that 'OM ot the deTelopaMmt,haft ca.e in lIarope aDd

thq're in trouble now. These kinde ot th:LJ188 happen, but I think mqbe

this is what Galbraith is talldng about, iDf'rastruct'Q1"e,it's .-phasll

011 research. Oneof the re&BODSf'or it is it t s important to keep up.

It's iJIIportantto be as techDolog1c~ iDDOfttiTeas the next f!}q •

.AD4this is the Y8¥ to surv1Te. It you 188 behind, or it you're UDluclcy,

you get into serious trouble. low in that seDle these urltet torces

are still there» they can surprise you.

There is kind ot an issue between Galbra:l.th and PolaDyi-Galbra:l.th

S8¥S this is no lc:mgera market econCllll¥;if' you look at it trail PolaDyi.'s

point ot new, it's not ezr:rot the non-market societies that he talks

about either. And in terma ot what wewere Just talldng about, the tact

that you can still be surprised in this, cCllllPetitive1ysurprise--and put

in a weakposition, in that sense there are still market t'orces; on the

other hand, large business tod8¥ has a lot of' sta'Dl1ityo It has both th

capacity to ride through sane occasional difflcul'ties and is auch less likely

to be taced wi'th UDexpecteddit'ticulties than 'the kinds of' tirms that

you had earlier in the Westernmarket society.

Is that a uset'Ul dis'tinctiont It seemsth&'t it's more a gradation

'than a market or Don-marketeCODmI\Y~just a degree of' marke'tintlueDce.

I'.aDel

-12-

teJJdns abcRlt'the .-rgeDCe of ecoD.ClIIiopoweru4 ••••••• of teo1U'Jo1olf.oa1

ohaDp ocOUl"l'iDs~ these prioe OOD8eq1J8noes,it •••• to _ that tbtt

dietinction betveen a arket and a DOD--.rketeociev i8 •• tal bee•••

that is a y&y of hi8bligbt1Dg the fact that there's ac.ethill8 D8V to

4eYelop. But f.Dtel'II8 of the fUrther eYOlutiClG.'of it, well, tIleDDO,

pro'beb1l'DOt. 'l'hie ie what kind of f.DtereRe _ in PolaD:Ji, I thiDk,

bee•• e he is reather UDiquethere. Becausethere i8 this 8I'-t -.phU:u.

'tb&t this ie • .-utows chaDge. low Just vbat i8 the c:caWJat of thia

JW.'Dtou cbaDge' I thiDk the point I get to here ie by 'ftfT of sqiq

ecoacmc power i8 e~ ,m"er;tAl IUD. and chaDp ocOUl"l'iDsthroa8b by ecOllaaiCforces i8 8cmethingDeW UD4erthe 8UIl;anclill these

other qste.. powervas 4ittel'ellt, aa4 eh8Dgevas ditteftJlt.\.. '~"'--"';~""-'-"""'''~''~''._~ -------_.-

Yee.

Well, then t vith all the militaz'7-iD4uetrial complex,with the

interdependence between the mill tar;r and bwlinese and the usuncl markets,

ad we eee the vbole aero-epaoe 1D4wrt1"1'eo depeD4enton 'the ~

aDdthe goye1DM1lteu44eW decidins, "will, 1M cloD'tneed 80 IIIOhof

thie." Bow,if there ha4 been IIIOre of aD UDUeureelarket, ••.• of the

traditional .rlurt 8ocie1i7.vou14 'these CCIIIPD"i- DOt haft tcMadsuch &

hard·tiJae, wouldth.,. haft kept up' •••

Well, 'they might haft disappeared and newones arieen .uI7 'tws

over. y~ vou14Jl't haft'iW1 the stability; 'that i8, reaouroee voal4 be

used in IICDe kind of & caD;P'ID;1or another, but ~ specific ~ would

haft a TerYshort life.

Cc SIa;t;

-13-

VbaI'. voa4eriDa aboat ia the lift. of tb!a tJpe of !Db" 1IGIr;

!bel' claD'" __ 'to baTe kept up or daD't a••• to ohM•• -u. pu •••

~'ft sot too ~ ••• ill too f_ buke'ta. ODeof the ~iCilDl

i. the oanllc.orant bWJin ••• ; and I YU 3118t "dillS &II ertio1e _ Prit.Miller. I cU..'t reali •• it, but InteruatiODa1 Te1egraph &D4'l'e1ephoDe

i. the bigHt oonc' a-rat.. Dot on. of these ••. OMS. .AlIA1iM7aN

a1ao in the apac. _d 4ef'eDce illduat17 ccap1ez; but' to thea W. ia ~

,S of their buinn.. '-'hey're in a "f'eJ!T c1itteNDt poaitiOlll 'tbaD BoeiDi

01' Lockheed. 7' ,,,,,.".,..","".",

Bow3Ut OM •••• idea ud 'then I •• as ". •.• 4oDe. ODeof the thin.tbat I got tbat'. ldnd ot a newidea to _ i. 'that t1da Ya7 of loakiac ."

power iA COIluut vi'th 'the ".,. eccm.amc the0r7 100U a" power. Beo•••

in eeo•• fc theoI7 the ponr I i. theref.~ if 7QIU..!La•••• e-. 0CIIl'tI01 CWW'

the prioe. AD4tber.ton the question ia &1,..,.. 1Illether )'OIl baw OCIIPfti'ti •••

~ aa4 DOIl-cc.petitift -.rket.. Whereu it ._ 'to _ that IIqbe

oat of ~ &D4ee..:m. the ld.D4 ot idea that JO'l oaabt to set ia

that tJpical.1\r vbeD 10'1 do haTe ecODalic ponr it 40ea iIlc1ul1e t1ae po'nl"

ot .~ cmatro1 OYer price ••

Bu.t thia ia not the cncial aspect of it. ft.e crucial Mpeet

bee ••• the 4epeD4eDc. ot ao --:r others 00 the ~i.i0D8 of tbeH people; .

eftIl it theee b1l8iDeas units haTe DODOD-c...,.-titift ponr. theT stUl

coatrol 30ba aDdbuiDea. opportunities for otbM'8. It voal4 still be _

i••• vhetJIer their aecisiODS are arbi'tz'ar,y' 01' whether thq're pncUftab1e

IUI4ezplaf.Dable. aDd Yhe"her 7CN baft a ncoane to .e-. poi.... proow4aN •

.a 80 00. .AlIAlet _ siTe 70U a little bit •••• OIl tba't. 'Baat'. t1D4 of

I I!( ~ill:1 I 111!~IJ.itfff~~f • ~1~\1 I ~d K t K • I ~! I f ~ B 1 I : · ! i

.• .- 8 i Ii' :+ !. ~ i ~Po ~ ~ ••

Ie... i H ; Eli's ~c. i::- . :I. ItM r" i i I S if:: 1 I It ~ ••t! ~fit i 8; $1 f ll' ~I J i: f tl

I;ItII f t I~ f • I·-·Ell -- ••. - j4 l-Po :: e: ,'.1'.. ; a : I ! s ~ " II e i 8 .I ~ •.. I :..I: •

1'1 ~ i II i & 8 f: ••. it :t t g ~ . - •iJlflOllL" !:tilijii;!iF1 I I. l I r I It! • t H • ~

H ~! ~It;:: · L" f q a ; • I I 8 ~ I .I~f i•• L" !:: I f r ~ I: t:: ( iIt t f 1" • M ~ f ~ ·

i ~ I .. . · :I f I ~8 tl I

- 15 -

step of ~ oU eaapanie. ~ •••• ~ca to tile

cle8irea ot the people. aDd goyez•••• ot the lID4eraeft1ope4 -.14. u4

I thiD1tCcIDoDa ~ siY" •• ~he beat olue on W.; O!lr cas aacl Pear~.

ADclwbat's at stake hen is ~ the fore •• that 701l're sub3ect to. I tId.Dk

~~~ ..~J.s.~ ..~._!:~_~~=~~M~.9l~.L~'~II1Ib~.!"

:1;0. but it saleh. bides the hot 'that there is a. 8N&'t c1eal of titteNaoe•• ' _, ..."".,..,."_:" .._"",_ ••. _ ..• ,."."""., ..•~ ••,..,._,,,,,,~_.""._"~".~,"'~ ,0'0 .- '--'~"~"~"' __"."_""",,_'. .. .,.".~,"'~"""'r',- .

'beW'eeD beiDa sub3ect to s~botI¥ else arbitzv1~ with DO PGIV to 4 "4•••••• "';\-'~~ __ '~~""~';;''''''''''-'=''_O'>.c ••.""".-~.,,_-'"__.'''''' _,•..~~_'''C''''''',.'·_~

apl~~~~_,_.~_~ .....~ to ~41;ha1; they ~~~ ...!!~.ZOIlseriOll8~ as ap:lD8't banna ~ 1d.n4of power u4 intl'o41acina arGer~

})1'OOe4uNs iDatee4 of arbi'trar;y prooeclurea in the8e ~ n1at:l.em.

'betve8l the two 1I'O'lP8. This i. aa-thiDS that is 'Yf1l!7~1i •••

ADd.,-be it is cl••••• in 'theBe A'8 and tni~ p1i8 b:ta.s- bca

ri... in ecoDCBio theo17.

Qlae!U'QD Are yOU ·s.,i1l8 tb&1i in eeoDaE.C thear7 we an CD1:y' conoeme4 with

the ad neults. •• Uke prices; vhereu in Cc rDS we aN COAOeZ"DI4

v:l.th bow that eD4 Is acb:tneclt'

•.•• 1 lIowtbat ea4 ft81I1t is aob:teftCl. 8D4 ••••. part:l.cna1ar~ vbo •••

c1eoi.ioaa aDd Ybfther tbat penCIl weldDS4eciaiOll8'·.cm be he14 to IIOOQIUR.

•

C 6d5·t---------------------------;)./v, _"er beeauH the taP•• he's subJect to an ~. ob.1ectiw toroea. ad.

it 4oen't _tter who•••• ~be clecisiODll. .\

Aft 10DnaestiDg a pqohoJ.oglcal tutor!

I "'t tbiDk it.·. PQ'Obolos1cal. I tbiDlt. wen I auppoee i' c10es

haft a p87oho1osf.cal iJIpect. art 1". DOt ".t pareJ;r PQ'Cbo108ica1.

• ••

-16-

'!be Cl1iMI"'In ". I t1WIk :ro. • to 1i&1k 8bOa.t i~ i8 ,,_~ • aftdeIR.

iD I'e1aUGD to •• t..... ••...•.···l••• of &n4iDI. Ie ~

aM..,.. or 40 yoahaft the ~t, it,.. teel ,..·ft beea .e.'"~, to rai.e _ i.... 'l'b:.I.s is,aure, PtI)'Obo'Josf.oal. Yoa'n.. \

IJOiDI to be ••• .-4 al»oat it. Blat it i.·t '~:"~~aa1. 1_.it t. ~ iDsU..-iODa1. Whetherthe -.cldeez7 ex1 •• wbf.oh eub1eI

,. to I'&i •• _ i••• 01' 1Ibe'Uler7O'l an ••• OCI m. wa14 ..,.. ~

Gl'OSe4 with DOncoane ~ .., k1D4.

Blat tbe •• lIf.". •• t be eftMt1'ftt

Y_. lilt in the ftz'ft place it baa to 'be~. .A:D4tbe tnlea1.

~ is tMt •• DW pcMtZ' •••••• tun i. 110 WMb1P111'7 to •••• all.

Bat 1fO\114D't that 1eD4 the ac~o1laDp.the ftftlt-toot

Y_. oaoe ~~ ~c JiOftII' aoea get .ta'b1l8be4 it :lDcl111Sea .••

,.. to ta4p prioes, to lIA1Id.D1eter prf.oes; thee· •.DO ~. abaa. .

ill. AlII W. ~ t1l&t •• 7OllllQ1••• 8Cf!l8pol!1'r:=!!!!..l!!!ll,!'-~ 1:••••• ,..., ~.~~ --!:f.tb~1· S-tb!!~~!..-!!1?,t~ to..-!!'" ~. . .

_ • f.Deti~1faiDI pz'Opet.1 as ••~. to ••nn "!I •••• t-••••••• Jllpf.oa1 poeaeaa1oIa, tha1;. ill & ••••••• ri•• to .., •••••••

•••• 10 ponI' •••••. or as 1mi0D8•••••. to 'ba1uc• .ap1qr... aU kfJrda

f:If •••• ill w101M, liD rsoUteeriD8. lack or~ iD GOD e1Atftlau.,

Oaeel!! ena_ •••• ~ ~ ~ with 1lIa&t pOIMPI •• 'Dl~ ••._ ,·_.........,.--.'".~·_"·_~.' .. _ •••m."~'~_, .., •.••,, ••••_~-, - • •

.••••••• .,... •• reeva.iDe4, the c1eYices that·"... 1I8eC1to . ',~'nf.D it .oarrie4 .,.,.. of ita on vh1ch••• e4 ~ other PIJ'POIN8. lib wrlal

~1

- 11-aubJect to be used 1'or other thiDSS than Just thoIIe; and sc.e o~ tho••

• ea could be abuai'YeaD4raiae probl•• ot hrther CJhaDse.tuI'ther

a4.1u'-lt.80 the place of this power ia that it •• a the qst. JIIOI'eJ'88pQD8ift

to people bT containing ~ place, its 0Il1¥taDctiOll is to IIltip.te

propoeea, techDo1oslca1propoeas or to a4apt it so that the people CIUl

lift UD4e:rit •••• tole:rabl1'. A JIIIDbaa hia poftJ' to clwlP. bat he's

atill subJect to the tecbDolo8ical to:rcea that &l'e1ID'I'iDg.It ec.1CD8

&D4PolaIV'i reJected the tact that there is teehDo1ollcal Pl"08NA, or

is tMir 878-- ODewhiohJut .fI4apta the .,. •• so that we C8Dlift UII4eJ'

'fhat's the issue ve sort; ~ .tarted with. I torgot about it. but•

the isa. reappears. ADdit's a Dice issue. Well, there ia the q1le8tiaa

ot how1'CNde'ri.e VII.78 of controlliDS it. 'thi. i. the thiDa that's up

DaW. Ifhere'. quite cl.earl1' aD atte1lpt 80ins OIl_iDg 8Gft1"1iiEAtto

cc.tI'ol rate ot techDolDs.r. Partiicularl1' 8CII8 eJIt'iraIIIIerr CGD8equeDOell

of teollDo1oslcal cbMp. ADdve're 80bs to try all aorts of tbh,p in

tbat..... !ro se. extent it's COlIltI'oUe4by busi•• a the ".,. Galbra1th

vas talking about it. ~se people, except Oalbl'aith, aa4 he ~ ftriab~.

40 DOttalk about this ias.. BIat;youc.'t talk about c1eb..asiDa. beoa8.

if •• ia a cultural aniwJ certa:lDq over •• t ~ m-n biata17 __ of

teallMloslcal chaDp aD4cultural ch8Dgeis DOtp1li.DDed.I don't r. P,..

vbere I heard it, but sc.e~ ".. talking about the ~ile--ua aePDs.

".uppose back in •• the 1890. you were re~ tac1q it: .hoal4 we or

.hou14 we DOt have 8D autoaobile," and aCllebocJTwouldbe aa1s:iDS,"what

will I get'" Anclyou tiDd out, "well, I caD f!P OYer50 JIilea aDhour. UI4

oc want

Co lent

- 18 -

n.ch aa4 nah, _tU 50,000people an heari.III this In tbia QGIa'trt.

PJ"Obab~It aU ot theee nadtf.oatioaa were aw.:l.1abJ.e.there tor

aeef.aiCDto be .c1e 'betvee this act 'that: 8hoa14 we haft sa --.obile

iD4us'b7, 8hca14 we haft 8D autcldb1e. probab~ ~'•• '4 ..,. DO. Bat that

lan't the VIIi1 abAse oo01ll"8.

BowI thiDk as probl_ occur, you keep rataiDs certain apeof.ftc

:lea•• :that JO'I teDc1 to ocmtrol, 3uet like uneJlPlo1MDt. Wehaft -.h ••••

conVol flY_ ~t tb.aD we had. PreeUlll&blTn 'b7 8D4 tI7 u4

get lION aoa.trol 0'fV pollutf.OD. aea poUutlC1D. air pollution. I t1drak

It ian't that 10'& pin ooD'tJ:Ol cmt1" ~, but OYer the thiD&8 tbat

oootzoollinc thea an;' it.ha't those get appropriated into public policy.

But; other Jdn4s ot chaDpe 80 CD, and 10'& cka't ~ aware fd thea tU

Iee, I •.•• with 'tbat, except t~ thia TerT thiDg that 7aQ'ft

talJdnc ue.t, that 7Ga haft at a oertaf.D point ot tiae a certain aet

ot insti tuti0D8, a certain sooiet7, • • • &Ddthen t,hiDp bec1D to

ohaDp and7O'l haYe D8¥ probl.. 8Dd then 'thia vho1eprooe8a atart.

apin bee•• e the ••. institutiOlUl aDd the new prob~ an nolftC1.

Iftle vbo1e point is to ~ uk whether tbeT an prcsresaiDs or DOt.

Youultec1 that earlier in the ..,.ater.It a•••• that theft'a ldn4 ot a qol. that keeps soinc •• d

.olrdoue~ we an gettiug •••• tp04a.

!be question is what aoes gettiDg mre sooc1sc10tor 118' ,.,.

question i8 to 4eoide wbat we vaDt'. ad· t~ 4eciae·nether n are" '

Co •• ,

Cal n'

Co I t

-Jl-

rc. 8ft tIaia ea-Uoa au •• tDe ill ID ••• s... You au a'bou.t

tri.iDc prl ••• , ••. tbe.r ..,., "wU, WO\1ld,. J'&'tJMrbaft 195,. 8D04a G

195~ prioee 01' WII14 ,. •••• 19Td. fPOCIea~ 1sncJ. price.'" I we

•• 80GIlhaft ".t I ha4 iD 1953 •• wbd I ~ ill 1910. I oa _ DO

that JO'I ••• l"'t haft __ 1:Mat

U ,.. tau • ....,. tMt hu ,..,. 1ft ~:Ues at \bU tDe.

MIfPCJ•• a,. ...,. ..u...••.•eliot•• , .-tIdDa lib Plot ••••• ~

.••..•.•..• _ ...w. ••.••.. 90 ,..... _.

lIeU, tile ••• i_ '11I'a••a;, wn ••• to ft. it ••• _io

cIlIei.i. 'brftII •• t.be •• ,. '111I ••.••• _ ."'. with _ Wu.tiOil

tonI'4 •••• ....,., ••••••••• eo ~ •• JlINI'" ••••• i••.,.. •• like tha b' •• "D.ddl.e thD tM,r'w _ ••• II'aaa4_ it.

!her"ft a.e a 18', ••• ·t 1lIMrI1 Daa""!IaW a tNe 'bu8

.em••,Ve1l, the'I'~ 1Iaft, Uke the nbwIIr .,..tea 'beWMD Moeoow

a4 Lefqn4. •• I "'t __..,-.ell ••• tMr'w ••••• • • .Bat

••• ~ tbe__ .,..nt.0Il of 'be -,-*Ue i. ~.Y., bat the tId• .-nt0Il f4 atapI _ iD. It.,. be_re

bIportat lit a oert&f.a•••• to JI'Oricle &004 ••• tnaapon)-' aubee­

~ __ ~ ••• I'l •• thefT •• _ the ••••• f.1e.

__ it ••• ,•.•• tile other ..,. aD lit.Well, I •••• ".'11 eD4 it heN.