17757 (D. SISBOLAI)

never. Were you detained during the Emergency? My

Lord,... ,ME. JUSTICE B5KKBR :

Is this relevant? MR. FISCKoR s

My Lord, presumably detainees were detained for some reason. One assumes, My Lord, thatthey were the important people in the Congress. MR. JUSTICJ BiSKKJR :

One doesn't know for what reason they were detained. Isn't it better him £o tell us what his capa-city was? I don't know, he may have been detained for any reason. MR. JUSTICE RUfffFF s

Put it this way, after 1956 many things may have happened. We are now in I960. He was detained in I960. In what way does it add to his evidence as a person who is entitled to speak on the issues in this case? MR. FISCHER s

Our submission, My Lord, would be that he is obviously looked upon by the Crown as someone entitled to speak, because he is someone who is in Emergency... MR. JTTSTTCa T̂ ICTO.R s

The Crown or the Minister? MR. FISCHER s

I think it was by the Governor-General. MR. JUSTICE BsLKKdR ;

Or a police commissioner or I think any number of persons could order the detention.

17758. (D. SEBOLAI)

MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : But assume that to "be the case, assume that .

this goes down, what inference could be made from that? MR. FISCHER i

My Lord, perhaps I anticipated the cross-examination, and I should, if it becomesrelevant do it at the end of the cross-examination, lD|cause the cross-examination may be towards showing that this witness £l&yed no part in the Congress organisa-t i o n %% all. In that case it would certainly be more relevant to show that he was arrested as a man sufficiently important in the iimrgency... MR. JUSTICE BEKKER :

He may have become important after 1956. MR. FISCHER ;

Then I should lay the foundation as to whether his position changed between 1956 and I960. I can just ask him that. MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ;

Well, if you are entitled to do so, then obviously you should do so, if you think it necessary, hut one was just wondering what inference could possibly be drawn from it. MR. FISCHER :

I don'4 do it with a great deal of confidence, My Lord, but I do suggest that particularly if the Crown cross-examines on the lines that this person knew nothing about it, played no part in the organisation, this is an indication from the State's point of view that he was regarded as of sufficient importance in the organisation

17759. (D. SEBOLAI)

in I960, provided his position hasn't materially changed between 1956 and I960. My Lord, may I put the question as to whether his position had changed at all. MR. JUSTIOS BEKKER ;

I think ask him if he was detained? MR. FISCHER :

Were you detained this year under the Emergency Regulations? I was.

"'ere you ever a Committee member of the Kimberley Branch? No, My Lord.

Did your position between 1956 and I960 in the branch change at all? I am just still an ordinary member as I was in 1956 and nothing different. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. FISCHER. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE 0TH-.R ACCUSED.

MR. HOEXTER : My Loid, my learned friends were only able to

give us the names of this witness and 4 further witness shortly before the Court commenced this morning. My Lord, as the evidence in chief stands, it is unlikely that the cross-examinati n by the Crown will be protracted. My Lord, Your Lordships will bear in mind that the present witness is neither an Accused nor an alleged co-conspira-tor, and the Crown feels in duty bound to explore his personal position in the organisation very briefly, to make certain qnquiries. That being so, My Lords, I suggest with respect that if it is convenient to my learned friend and to the Court, this witness - that the cross-examination of this witness stand down and that my learned friend proceeds meanwhile with the further

17760. (D. S£B0LAI)

witness whoso name was divulged to us this morning, and that the cross-examination of this witness "be done on Tuesday, My Lord. My lord, I make this suggestion in order to save time, because being ignorant of certain details which the Crown regards as routine, I may have to explore unnecessarily, My Lord, and I don't wish to do that. M:i. JUSTICE RUMEFF s

What I was thinking of was this, you may want to explore, that you are entitled to do. Apart from that, can't you cross-examine him on what he has given here, if you wqnt to cross-examine him, and let him gr, back, and if you want further cross-examination he could come back. MR. FISCHER :

My Lord, I would very much urge that Your Lord-ships 1 s suggestion be accepted, because the witness runs this little one man business, and I would very much, like to got him back to Kimberley on the understanding that he hasto come back here if he is required for further cross-examination. MR. JUSTICE RUMI-FF ;

It is just on the basis that you may find that you have no questions to ask him as a result of what you are wajting for? MR. HOJXTliR :

That is so, My Lord. Your Lordships will appreciate that we would prefer not to deal with his cross-examination piecemeal. If it is - if there aa any inconvenience to the witness that is regretted, but - the Crown is in Your Lordship's hands, and if Your Lordship prefers that course, I shall go on.

17761. (D. SEBOLAI)

My Lord, with respect, Y^ur Lordship will appreciate that even such cross-examination as I could embark, upon now may be effected by the responses we get from our enquiries. There will be no objection to the next witness being led in chief, but again - as soon as the names are divulged to us, we took the necessary steps to get the informati "in, hut it hasn't come to hand yet. MR. FISCHER s

My Lord, i would like to say in regard to the next witness that the witness was interviewed by the Accused Nokwe in Cape Town. This v/itness was interviewed by the Accused Nokwe in Kimberley, and wherever the Accused Nokwe went he was followed by quite a number of the Special Branch. MR. ffHTSElCE RUMPFF s

Your next witness, will he be as short as this witness in chief? MR. FISCHER :

Yes, My Lord. MR. JUSTICE RUMIFP :

I am sorry that this happened, but in view of the Crown's attitude I think we had better call the next witness and let the cross-examination of this witness stand over.

HOWARD MARAWU, duly sworn; EXAMINED BY MR. 0'DOWD ;

Were you born in 1922 in Lady Freis in the Cape? That is so.

Did you go to school in Lady Frere? Yes.

17762. (D, MARAWU)

Up to what standard? Standard Six. Have you resided in Cape Town since 1944?

Yes, My Lord. ^hat sort of work do you do in Cape Town?

A messenger, listening to the telephone in a certain office in Capo Town. I am also acting as a storeman.

And at present, have you another job? Yes, at present I am canvassing for a dery cleaning firm.

In what part of Cape Town do you live? Nyanga.

Is thf t a location? Yes. Do you belong to any Church? Yes, then

African Native Mission Church. Are you a preacher in that Church? Yes, My

Lord, since 1947. Were you a member of the African National

Congress? Yes, before it was banned. When did you first hear about the African National

C ngress? 1946. How did you hear about it? I heard it at

a meeting that was held at Langa Location in 1946, and at the Grand Parade in Cape Town.

When did you jjoin the African National Congress? -- 1951.

'Was that also at a meeting that you joined? Yes.

Where was that meeting held? At the Grand Parade.

Do you remember who spoke at that meeting? Mr. Ngwevela, Mr. Ngwenya md Mr. Nkahlo and others.

17763. (H. M&HAWU)

what branch did you join? The manner I was - I joined the Cape Town Branch.

From 1951 to 1956, did you take an active part in branch meetings and branch activities? No, I did not take a very active part, but I did attend the meeting. 5

£0 you mean branch meetings or public meetings or both? Public meetings.

How frequently were public meetings held in Cape Town? Sometimes after a month, sometimes after two months. 10

What about the Grade P- rade lunchtime meetings, how often were those held? Sometimesnnce a week and sometimes once a fortnight.

•̂ id you go to many of those? Whenever I had a chance. 15

Can you remember the names of some of the Cape A.N.C. meetings whom you heard speaking at those meetings? Yes, some of the names I have mentioned and others like Ngotyana and Mpeta.

Were there also sometimes speakers from the 20 Congress of Democrats of1 the South African Coloured People's Organisation? Yes.

Do you remember any of their names? Mr. Lee Warden and Mr. La Guma, the junior (?).

Do you remember m y speakers whom came to 25 Cape Town from oth^r parts of the country? Mr. Sisulu, Dr. Njongwe. Those are the people I remember.

As a result of attending these meetings, what did you understand th t the A.N.C. wanted to do? My Lord it wanted equal rights for all races, in this countryiO

17764. (H. MARAWU)

By what sort of methods did it want to achieve that? My Lord, they said they wanted all the races in this country to unite, then they can sp&ak to the govern-ment in one voice, so that all the people should have equal rights, so that we should all live peacefully in 5 this country.-

"̂ id fc rce or vi lence play any part in the methods of which you were told? No, I never heard one of those speakers say anything like that.

If the policy had "been one of overthrowing the 10 government "by fc rce, would you have joined the A.N.C.?

No, I would not! Why not? My Lord, that is the reason why

it took me so long before I joined, I wanted to scrutinise, because I believe that if the government could be taken 15 out by violence there could never be peace*.

If the government isn't to be overthrown by violence, what sort of means are to be used? My Lord, they mentioned many methods that could be used, peaceful methods that could be used, such like stay at homes, 20 boycotts, those methods then would cause the electorate to speak to the government.

•"•nd what did you hope would happen then, if the electorate spoke to the government? The government would listen. 35

Do you know whether these methods, similar methods have been used in practice? Yes, the boy-cotting of the potatoes, My Lord, that was a success in the Western part of the country.

17765. (H. MH.RA.WU)

MR. JUSTICE BEKKZR % When did you "boycott potatoes? In 1958

if I am not mistaken. MR. 0'DOWD :

Now I would like to get some earlier examples. 5 Did you know anything about the Defiance Campaign? Yes, I did see that campaign.

You didn't take part in it personally? No, it was the time I was still scrutinising this organisation.

Did ycu hear a lot about it at the meetings 10 which ycu attended? Yes.

After 1956, did you become more active in the A.N.C.? Yes, My Lord.

Was there any particular reason for that? My Lord yes, the reason was that caused me to he much 15 more active, was the arrest of the leaders.

In what branch have you been active since then? Nyanga.

Have you attended Conferences since 1956? Yes. Which conferences? Provincial or National? 20

Western Region and Provincial. As a result of the knowledge of Congress that

you have acquired and the activities since 1956, is your view of Congress policy any different from what it was when you were just attending the public meetings? No. 25

Do you know what other branches there arc in the Western Cape, apart from Nyanga? Yes, I know, Langa, Kensington, Worcester, Paarl, Stellenbosch, Cape Town, Athlone, Retreat.

Is your own branch in the habit of holding 30

17766.

(H. MARAWU) faeetings? Yes.

-°ranch meetings or public meetings or both? — Both.

How frequently? Public meetings were"held once a month, but when we are b\isy with a campaign, we would have them weekly.

Have you ever seen police at your meetings? Many times.

Did they take notes of the speeches? Yes. •̂o you know to what extent other branches in

the Western Cape held meetings? x'hey were carrying on in the same manner in which we were doing.

Were you also detained this year? Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. O'DOWD. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE OTH-.R ACCUSED. WITNESS STANDS DOWN. CASE REMANDED TO THE 27TH SEPTEMBER, I960. COURT aDJOURNS.

17767.

COURT RESUMES ON THE 27th SEPTEMBER, I960. AIPEARANCES AS BEFORE.

Accused P. None not in C urt.

DAVID SEBOLAI, under former oath; CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. HOEXTJR s

Mr. Sebolai, can you tell us please, as a member of the African National Congress, what were you activities? I was a member of the African National Congress.

And as such, what did you do? -)•-)— I had to go round to the congregati <ns, to the gatherings of the public.

To do what there? To go and listen to what is being said.

Anything else? I had nothing else to do but to go and listen to what is said by those in front.

•̂ nd at what branch of the African National Congress were you active in this way? At Kimberley

Was that the only place where yoii were active in the manner you have described? Only then.

Can you tell us approximately how many members there were in the African National Congress, Kimberley Branch? I think they were more than three thousand.

At whet time was this? That number existed since about 1958.

During the period 1952 to 1956 were you in Kimberley all the time? Yes, My lord, I was there.

Did you during that period attend meetings of the Kimberley branch of tho African National Congress?

Yes, I did go there.

17768. (D. SKBOLAI)

Are you able to tell us apprrximately how many meetings you attended in that period? I am not able to say how many times, but I can give an indication that the meetings were held once or twice a months.

Did you attend regularly or did you miss some 5 meetings? During th ,t time I think I missed four or five.

Is that in the whole period 1952 to 1956? Yes, My Lord.

Is your knowledge of the policy of the African 10 National Congress confined to what you had heard said during this period? Yes, My Lord.

Can you remember who some of the speakers were at these meetings in the period I have asked you about, 1952 to 1956? Mr. Sesedi, and Mr. Modiyagliotla, and also 15 Dr, Letele and Mr. Sechoareng, and others* of whom I do not remember all the names.

Confining yourself to the names you have mentioned, in your opinion would these gentlemen wh m you have menti nod be better qualified than you to speak as to 20 the policy of the African National Congress in the Kiaberley Branch? Yes, very muc& so.

You mentioned on Friday a gentleman Matji. How well do you know him? Matji I saw once in a meeting where he was present. 25

Was that a meeting in October, 1952, in the Galashewe Location? Yes, My Lord.

On that occasion this person Matjie made a speech to which you listened? Yes, My Lord.

And this was the only occasion on which you 30

17769. (D. SEBOLAI)

heard this person Matji speak? Yes, My Lord. Do you recall thvb on the same occasion you

listened to a speech by a man called J. Matthews? Yes, My Lord.

Is that the same J. Matthews that you mentioned 5 on Friday in your evidence in chief? Yes, My Lord.

Is this the only occasion on which you heard Mr. J. Matthews speak? That was the first and the last time I heard him speak«

If I understood you correctly on Friday, I think 10 you explained tc Your - to Their Lordships that part of your knowledge of the policy of the African National Congress is gained - was gained from what these people said, that is Matjie and Matthews? Yes, My Lord*

Can ycu remember at all what was said in these 15 speeches? This was a public meeting was it not, of the African National Congress? It was.

Do you remember that at this meeting the speaker Matthews said that what is needed in this country, South Africa, is the establishment of a thing he called a 20 People's Democracy? My Lord, I do not remember having heard Matthews use that expression.

Mr.Scbolai, having regard to the fact that you heard .,, MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; 25

Can you remember in what language the speech of Mr. Matthews was held? He spoke in English, My Lord. MR. HOEXTER :

^an you remember today anything that was said

either in the speech of Mr. Matjie or in the speech of

1

f

17770. (D. SEBOLAl)

Mr. Matthews on this occasion in October, 1952? I cannot remember very much of what was said, but I remember that they asked the people to come together, to join together.

Is that the only memory you have today of what 5 was said by these two gentlemen in October, 1952? Yes, My Lord.

On Friday you said in your evidence that the Kimberley Branch had no classes, held no study classes and did not rely on lectures? No, nothing was talked. 10

I don't wish to waste time by referring to documents which have been handed in to the Court already, I would just like to put to you that without your being aware of the fact, lectures may have been sent to Kimber-ley from Johannesburg for use in Kimberley? 15 MR. JUSTICE RUMFFF :

Is thatsuch an important question? Isn't it possible without his knowledge in any event? How can he say that. MR. HOEXTER : 20

AeJ Your Lordship pleases. Save for this, My Lord, that his answer might be that his knowledge was so complete that it is impossible. MR. JUSTICE RUMFFF ;

Were you a member of the Branch at Kimberley? 25 Yes, My Lord.

You were not a member of any Committee? No. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. HOEXTER.

30

17771. (D. SKBOLAI)

RE-EXAMINED BY MR. FISCHER : Mr. Sebclai, you told the Court in answer to

the learned Prosecutor that you thought that people like Sesedi, Kodyaghotla and Dr. Letele would be better able to speak of African National Congress policy than you? 5 Yes, My Lord.

You have also told the Court what you thought the policy of the African National Congress is? Yes.

%at you have told the Court, is that the j same or is it something different from what these people 10

told you or spoke about? That is what they have been advocating. NO FURTHER (QUESTIONS BY MR. FISCHER.

HOWARD MORAWU, (RECALLED), under former oath; CROSS-EZAMINED BY MR. HOJXTER s

On Friday you told Their Lordships that you did not yourself take part in the Defiance Campaign because at the time - and the reason you gave was that at the time

^ of the Defiance Campaign y m were still scrutinising the working of the African National Congress? Yes.

I want to put to you that the first time that a membership card of a branch of the African National Congress was issued in your name was in 1956? That was not the first card.

When was the first card issued? It was during 1951.

And by what branch of the African National - s j Ccngross was this issued t;> you? The Cape Town Branch.

17772. (H. MORAWU)

At all events, it is right to say that in the period 1952 to 1956 you were not active in the affairs of the African National Congress? That is correct.

Did you d very little.in that tine? I did very little. 5

You mentioned on Friday some of the persons you heard speak at meetings of the African National Congress. Do you consider that those persons you mentioned on Friday are better qualified than you are to explain to the Court what the policy of the A.N.C. in the Cape was? Yes. 10

Is your knowledge of the policy of the African National Congress conf

1 ne ci to what you heard spoken at meetings of the African National Congress? Previously I had heard from the meetings.

Previous to what date? Before 19 56. 15 But you did very little be tween 1952 and 1956?

Yes, I had very little. In this period 1952 to 1956 approximately how

many meetings did you attend of the African National Congress? — I think it is just s little over ten occa- 20 sions.

Did you in Cape Town know a person.icq.lled Ngugunyeka? I know him.

Did you heor him speak ever? I was not present when he made a speech. 25

Do you know what position he occupied in the African National Congress? I remember slightly that he was a chairman of the Cape Western Region.

At what time? I cannot remember well, but I think it was 1956. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. HOEXTaR. NO RE-EXAMINATION.

17773. (A. MONGWABONA)

ANDHES MONGWABONE, duly sworn; EXAMINED BY MR. FISCHER s

You were born in 1914 in the Vryburg district? Yes, My Lord.

I think you vent -to school in Ottosdal until 5 Standard One? That is so.

After that you became a cattleherd on farms in the Ottosdal district? That is so.

You now live in Klerksdorp? Yes, My Lord How long have you been there? 23 years. 10 I think in all that time - when you got there,

did you take domestic work to start with? For three years.

And since then have you worked for just two employers? That is so. 15

At some time, did you join the African National Congress? That is so, My Lord.

When was that? 1954. What branch did you join? I was an executive,

Qt Klerksdorp. How did that branch come to be established? 20

We became a branch under the Congress. Whr; started the branch? Freddy Morris and

Motsoaledi. They came from Johannesburg. And was that in the same year that you joined?

That is so, My Lord. 25 When these two people came from Klerksdorp -

came from Johannesburg, what did they ask you to do? -'-hey told me to speak to people, tell them to come togjther and to speak about freedom.

Did yr then call some meetings? Yes, My Lord.

17774. (A. MONGWABONE)

And did these two people speak at these meetings? Yes, on the first day when we started.

Did they tell you of the African National Congress? Yes, they did tell me.

-̂ id they tell you what it stood for? Yes, 5 they told me.

Will you tell the Court what they said the A.N.C. stood for? They told me that we had to "become a branch, a committee, and that wo would select our people who would talk for us in parliament. 10

Did they tell you further what the objects of the Congress were? No, with the exception of the freedom they did not tell me anything.

What did you understand by the freedom? They told me that we should try to get free, to rule 15 ourselves, so that we were even with other nations that were free.

Did they explain to you how you were to 1ry and get this freedom? In what way you had to work? Yes, only by speaking and coming together. 20

Did they say whether you were ever to use any force or violence? Those I have never heard at all.

Have you ev^r since then heard qny suggestion that force and violence should be used? No, I have not.

Would you have joined: a movement which tried to 25 achieve its objects by violence? No, I would not have joined them if that were their object.

Why not? Because I am not one who lmkes blood to be spilt.

When Morris and Motsoaledi were there, did you 30

17774. (A. MONGWABONE)

you then form this "branch of the African National Congress? Yes, My Lord, they are the ones that spoke to the

people. No, I an asking if you and others then formed

this branch? Yes, My Lord. 5 You have told us that was in 1954 and that you

were on the Committee? Yes, My Lord. I think you remained on the committee until

the organisation was "banned? That is so, / r

Very shortly I want to talk of some of the 10 things the branch did. Did the branch ever hold lectures?

No, we did not. •'-'id the branch have volunteers? Yes, when

we held our meeting, we selected some who had to prevent others from coming and breaking up that meeting, 15

Were those what you call the volunteers? Yes. Did you hold public meetings? Yes, My Lord. How often? Approximately once a month. Did you have to get permission to hold those

meetings? Yes. seven days prior to such a meeting. 20 You had to get permission from the municipality?

Yes, My Lord. And then were the - when the meetings were held,

did any members of the police force attend? Yes, municipal police as also C.I.D. 25

And did they take notes of what was said? They did make notes.

Generally, who were the speakers? Where did they come from? Generally there were us, the inhabi-tants of Klerksdorp. 30

17774. (A. MONGWABONE)

Did you sometimes have speakers from outside Klerksdorp? — Yes, sometimes we called one and sometimes two speakers.

Oan you remember the names of any of these speakers that came from elsewhere? — — Robert Resha, 5 And another one is Mr. Nkadimeng.

Is that an Accused in this case? — I do not know.

Do you know his first name? I do not. Anyone else you can remember? And Mr. 10

Nthithe. Those are the ones that I remember. As far as you can remember, did they say what

you have said here was the policy of the A.N.C. or did they say something different? They did not say anything else, only that which I have told the Court. 15

^id the Klerksdorp Branch do anything about Bantu j-iducation? — Yes.

What did the Congress members do? We took our children out of the schools.

For aicut how long? A year and six months. 20 Do you remember the Congress of the People?

Yes, I do. Did you go there? Yes, I did. How many people went from Klerksdorp? , I

cannot say, but a bus was full. 25 Did yoti hire a bus? Yes, My Lord. Incidentally, I think you have never been able

to hire a bus again since then? Yes, it was stepped after that.

With regard to the removal from Sophiatown, 30

17777. (A. M0NGWAB0N2)

did the Klerksdorp Branch do anything? Yes, because we felt sorry for them.

What did ycu do? We called meetings and spoke about that thing.

Spoke against it? Yes, My Lord. 5 What did the Klerksdorp Branch do about passes

for woaian? Many women went to the Native Commissioner. they go separately or did they go together?

They were stopped by the police on the road going there. 10

And then what did they do afterwards? Many people also went to the Native Commissioner to speak about the arrests of Natives for permits and also the arrest of children.

When you say many people, do ycu mean people 15 of the Congress branch or other people? All people who live in the location.

I was really asking you what the women did about passes, fthen they were not able to see the Native Commissioner, did thoy go anywhere else? They were 20 turned back on the road and they did not go theru.

Later on, did they go to another place? - — Afterwards a fleeting was called, and we spoke about people going to see the municipality and also the Native Commissioner. 2 5

Did anybody go to Pretoria? SOme did go to Pretoria.

Who sent them? I do not know their names, but they were many women.

Who went to Pretoria or who sent them? 30

17778. (A. MONGWABON32)

The African National Congress of Klerksdorp sent them., NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. FISCHER. I

CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. VAN PER WALT : Do you claim to know the policy of the African

National Congress? Not very well, but I know a 5 little.

How do you know it? I know that they wore asking for a release (relief?),.

How dr you know ;hat the policy of the African National Congress was during 1952 to - 1954 to 19 56? 10

I do not know it, I only know as much as I have told. And you told the Court that you were a member

of a committee, is that correct? Yes. What committee was that? This committee had

to do the work of calling together and calling a protest. 15 Was that connected with the African National

Ccngress? Yes. How many members were on that committee?

We were five. Can you tell the Court more or less what you 20

actually did as a member of that committee during 1954 to 1956? I spoke to people about their release, a release from being ruled by others. MR. JUSTICE RUKPPF :

Is this the same word as freedom? Yes, 25 My Lord, that is freedom. MR. VAN PER WALT :

You mentioned certain persons, F. Morris is one of them? Yes.

How well do you know him? I knew him at 30 that time, but he vanished since, and I haven't seen him

17774. (A. MONGWABONE)

again. Was that the first time you saw him at Klerks-

dorp in 1954? Yes. And was he representing any organisation?

Ke was the one who had cone to start the branch at Klerksdorp.

Do you know whether he was an Executive member of the African National Congress? I cannot say, My Lord, he has been down to s^c us.

You mentioned Robert Resha? Yes. "'hen did you see him for the first time? I

cannot remember, My Lord, I haven't got an education -such an educaticn that I cin remember that.

How many times did you see him at Klerksdorp? Twice only.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. V^N PER WALT. NO RE-EXAMINATION.

MAXIM MASHEKO, dikly sworn; EX.JVIINED BY MR. O'DPWD :

Wore you born in 1916 in the Transkei? Yes. You now live in Cape Town? Yes. When did yr.u first come to Cape Town? 1940. What work do you do there? I was just doing

ordinary work and during 1946 I joined the Railways and Harbours.

Have you been to school? Yes. Up to what standard? «.s far as Standard Two. "Tien did you first heir about the African

17780. (M. MHSHEKO)

National Congress? During 1952. How didyou cone to he .r about it? I heard

people mention - that were inviting people to a meeting, •there were people going'about calling people to attend a meeting; 5

Where was this unvoting held? There is a place in Cape Town called Parade.

Arc meetings held there frequently? Some-times there are meetings at this place and at other times at Kwalanga. 10

Between 1952 and 1956, did you go to any other meetings of the African National Congress? Yes*

To few or to many? Many. Did you eventually join the African National

Congress? Yes, during 1956. 15 Can you give a month? It was in the winter

season, between June and July. By the time y :u joined, do you think you knew

what the policy of the organisation was?-To seek freedom. •k'rcm where had you acquired your knowledge of 20

that policy? I was toll in the meetings. Can you name any of the persons you heard

speaking at those meetings? There are some. Can gou give the Court a few names? Yes,

one Kotane, Ngwevela, and Mtemba, and yet another Tsiba(?)25 The A.N.C. was aiming at freedom. Did you

know how the A.N.C. was aiming to obtain freedom? By trying to do something.

What sort of things was it going to try to do? Such things as to boycott, that is to remain at home 30

17781. (M. MASHEKO)

and.riot go to work. anything else? There 'is no other thing. •Lid the African National Congress have any

view on the subject of violence? No, sir. You say it had no- view? - — It had no view of 5

using violence. Did you approve of that idea? Yes, I

approved. Why did you approve? It is a painful thing

when there is a fight and sono people die. 10 Did you ever hear A.N.C. speakers saying that

there would have to be sacrifices in the course of the struggle? The meeting expects us to attend the meetings.

In the course of the speeches which you heard, 15 did you ever hear the idea suggested that people might have to make sacrifices or might have to suffer in the struggle? What, do you mean by sacrificing.

I was going to ask you what you thought was meant by sacrificing. If you didn't hear that phrase 20 ever used, then just say so? May I explain, My Lord, that we were expected to attend meetings, all of us must attend meetings, but then sometimes there at the meeting a commotion arises which is not caused by us, the members. 25

What could happen then? The Congress has stated that once a thing of that nature crops up, then the meeting must be closed. It is against violence.

You talked about boycotting, by which you mean staying at home from work. Did you think that that 30 could bring any results? It would have results.

17782. (M. MASHEKO)

What results do you think it could have? The rich people, the commercial people, they would suffer, and they would then complain that the people must come to work.

To whom would they complain? To the govern-ment .

•"•nd what do you think the government might do if it received such complaints? He would then give a hearing. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. O'DOWD. NO QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF TEE OTHER .aCCUSED.

CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. HOEXTER : This person to whom you referred as a speaker

v in Cape Town, Kotane, did you know him personally? I did not know him, but I saw him as he was addressing a meeting and I was told that he was going to address the meeting.

Do you know what position he occupied in the African National Congress? No.

Did you know what position Mr. Ngevela held in the African National Congress? No.

Did you know what position this person Ntemba bccupied in the .frican National C ngress? He was a chairman at one time.

Chairman of what? He was the chairman of the meeting.

To what branch of the African National Congress did you belong? I was at Langa.

Is it correct to say that your knowledge of what the African National Congress wanted and how it was

17783. (M. MASHEKO)

going to got it exactly, that knowledge was gained "by you from what yc-u heard at meetings of the African National Congress? — T h a t is correct.

How many meetings of the African.National Congress did you attend per year? I did not count. 5

Can you give us a rough guess? All I can say it was held once a month or once a fortnight.

Do you agree with me that persons such as you have mentioned, Kntane and Ngwevela, would be better qualified to explain to the Court what the policy of 10 the African National Congress is? Better qualified than you? I cannot say that. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. HOEXTER. NO RE-EXAMINATION.

ANNANIAS MAGWAZA, duly sworn; EXAMINED BY MR. FISCHER .s

You are forty-six years old, a married man with five children, and you live in Pimville? Yes, My Lord.

You are a member of the United National Church? Yes.

I think before that you were a member of the Swedish . . . . . Church? Correct.

For a living I think you run a small fruitnshop in Pimville? Yes.

And this business you have been running since about 1946? Correct.

I think when you were a boy you went to school at New Hanover, and went up to about Standard Four?

17784. (X. MAGWAZA)

AS far' as Standard Four. Did you ever join the African National Congress?

Yes, sir. .When did you join it? .During 1950. Was that, in Pimville? Yes. 5 I think since then you have been an ordinary

member until the organisation was banned? That is so. I think you have never been a Committee member?

No, sir. Have you attended some Provincial Conferences? 10

I was at a meeting which was held here in the Trans-vaal, a Provincial Meeting.

More than one? More than once. I would like you to tell the Court what you

- what in your opinion the African National Congress 15 stands for? The African National Congress wants people to live - socially they must live together and be free in this country.

What sort of freedom? All people in this • country. 20

Does that mean pe^pio of all races? Yes. What else does it stand for? And that the

laws suppressing the African people must be repealed. Anything else that you consider that is impor-

tant that it stands for? That whenever there is an 25 election that has to take place, the Prime Minister must be elected by all people of the country.

Would you tell the Court why you joined the African National Congress? Because I joined I this Congress because its policy is that it works hand in 30

17785. (A. MAGWAZA)

hand with what is expected of us by God. What do you mean by that? When I heard

that the Congress stands with the wo!rd of God that there should be no war and that the people must live together in harmony,•I then joined this Congress. 5

Did you find out, how, by what methods, the Congress was supposed to achieve its aims? That would be achieved by organising strikes or boycotts, and some-times that people must sit down and not go to work.

Sit down at home? Sit down at home. 10 Anything else? That is all I can remember. Do ycu know about the Defiance Campaign?

Yes, I also know that. I think you didn't yourself take part? No,

I did not take part. 15 How did you find out what the Congress stood

for and how it was going to set about achieving its objects? I was - this was preached to me by one, the late Mayemane, he told me this.

Is that where you heard it first? Yes. 20 Who was the late Mayemane? He was the

Secretary of the Pimville Branfih. Is that at the time that you joined? Yes. Sine-then have you found that he was correct

or incorrect in what he told you? My Lords, I realised25 that it was correct what he said.

Have you ever heard it suggested at any Congress meeting or Congress gathering that Congress should use force or violence to achieve its ends? No, I have never heard that. 30

17786. (A. MAGRWAZA)

I want you to tell the Court about some of the activities in Pimville. Are meetings held there by the Congress? There were meetings held at Pimville.

xhat is to say public meetings? Yes. Did you attend these meetings? I did attend 5

these meetings, although I did not attend them all. Did you hear the speeches made there? Yes,

I teard the speeches made there. Do you know whether the police were present at

such meetings? They were there. 1 Did you ever see them writing anything? I

could see they were writing something. Do you know whether the Congress did anything

in Pimville about Bantu-Education? There was a meeting held where it was discussed and this Bantu Education was 1 said that it was not a good thing.

Was there only one meeting about it or were there more meetings? As far as I can remember there were only two meetings where the discussion was about the Bantu Education. 2

Do you know whether anything happened about the children going to school as a result of the intro-duction of Bantu Education? My children told me that they had been told that they are not expected to go to school the following day, as it was said generally 2

that children must not go to school. Do you know whether children stayed away

from school? Many children went to school, many others did not go to school.

Did you take part in the Defiance Campaign? 3

17787. (M. MAGWAZA)

No, I did not take part. Do you know whether members of the Pimville

Branch did? Y*rs, some of them. !

Did you take part in the Congress of the People? I d'id not take part in the Congress of the People. 5

Why was that? I did not get the opportunity of attending the meeting which was held at Kliptown.

Did members of the Pimville Branch of Congress -take part? Yes, and many others who are not the members of the Congress. 10

I want to know whether you ever had classes in Pimville, dmdyou ever attend these classes that were run by the Congress? Yes, I did attend the classes.

Can you remember how many you attended? I remember I attended three classes. 15

Who gave those classes? It was Mandela, Mathole and Cachalia.

Without going into any details, can you tell the Court what sort of thing they told you? They were sort of telling the members to respect whatever they 20 were told by the Congress.

•̂ id - is the word discipline perhaps the correct word to use? It is correct.

What else did they tell? Then the members of the Congress were told that whatever hardship they 25 experienced, they must not hit back by using violence, they mustnot retaliate.

Just give me a few more of the things you were told? They said we must tell the people how bad it was to carry passes, and this necessitates the suppression 30

17788. (A. MAGWAZA)

of the African people. -̂ id they say anything ahout going from house to

house? We were going to tell the people, educate them by going from one house to another.

• « *

And explain what Congress was? Explaining. And to recruit people? And to recruit the

people to Congress. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. FISCHER. NO QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF TH-J OTHER ACCUSED.

CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. VAN PER WALT s When did you attend the Provincial Conference?

Although I cannot remember well, but I remember the occasion when I went to the Trades Hall.

Can you tell us what year it was? It is from 1952, during those times.

It is now I960. Could it have been 1958? During 1958 I did not attend.

You mentioned the Trades Hall, is that in Johannesburg? Yes.

Lid you hear a Presidential Address at the Conference? During the time when I went to attend a meeting, (D heard Mandela speaking in that meeting.

In what capacity did he speak, do you know? I cannot say in what capacity, but he occupied the

front seat where there were mahy others in front. Is that the only person you heard? I

cannot remember their names very well, there were many speakers.

Many speakers, and you heard them all? I

17789. (A. MAGWAZA)

heard them all speaking. What topics were discussed at that Conference,

do you know? The topic was we must struggle to get liberty.

Is that the only topic you remember? — — And 5 they said that the pass is something that is not very desirable.

Is that all you remember? They actually explained in different ways how it was not good.

This person, the late Mayemane, did you speak 10 to him when you joined the African National Congress? — Yes.

You told the Court that he told you what the A.N.C. stood for? Yes.

Where did that take place? At a public or 15 a private meeting? He came to my house and told me this at my house.

Why did he go to your house, do you know? Because he wanted me to become a member of the Congress.

You say since then you found out that he was 20 correct. How did you find out? As a man who is religious, I realised that what was the Congress - what the Congress asked,for, was the same thing as is expected of a pjsachor.

Is that how you found out that his statements 25 were correct? Correct.

Why did you attend classes? I wanted to become one of the Congress people and be able to spread the ideas of Congress.

You mentioned Mathole as one of the lecturers. 30

17790. (A. MAGWAZA)

Do you know him well? I know him. Is he one of the Accused? Yes, he is one of

them. Can you point him out? (WITNESS IDENTIFIES

ACCUSED NO. 8 AS MATHOLE) 5 You also mentioned Cachalia? Yes. , i Is that Yusuf Cachalia? Yes.

•• t Have you told us all you know about the African

National Congress? I can toll you if you specifically say what you want me to answer. 10

Where did you attend meetings? At Thaba-bosigo(?) Pimville. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. NO RE-EXAMINATION.

JOSEPH MOKAMEDI, duly sworn; EXAMINED BY MR. 0 1 D0?/D ;

Aro you forty-two years old and do you come 20 from the Pietersburg district? That is correct.

Did you go to school in Pietersburg? Yes. Up to what standard? I was in Standard Four

when I left school. You now live in Pretoria? Yes. 25 For how long have you lived in Pretoria? I

came to Pretoria in 1932. Were you a member of the African National

Congress? Yus, My Lord. When did you first join it? 1952. 30 Was that at the time of the Defiance Campaign?

17791. (A. M0KAMED.2)

Yes, My Lord. Did you take part in the Defiance Campaign?

I did, My Lord. "hat law did you contravene? Pass laws and

the curfew laws. 5 Were you sentenced for that? Yes, I was. What was the sentence? A month and twenty days. Were you the only person who took part in the

Defiance Campaign in Pretoria or were there others? There were many of us taking part. 10

£rom 1952 to 1956, were you a member of the Lady Selborne Branch of the A.N.C.? That is correct.

Were you ever a member of the committee? No. Have you ever attended any Transvaal Provincial

Conferences of the African National Congress? No. 15 Have you ever been over to Johannesburg to attend

a Congress meeting? I have, My Lord. What sort of meeting was that? It was one

meeting in connection with Africa Day. Is that June 26th? Yes, My Lord. 20 During your time of membership of the Lady

Selborne branch, did it hold public meetings? That is correct, My Lord.

How frequently? About once a week, My Lord. How many speakers did you usually have at a 9 25

meeting? I cannot say. Were there more than one? Yes, more than one. Did you attend those meetings? Whenever I

was present I would attend a meeting. Did you attend fairly regularly? My Lord, 30

17792. (J. M0KAMED3)

whenever I was present and available I would, attend a meeting.

Gan you say whether you attended one a month or one a year? My Lord, it is impossible for me to say how many times I have attended meetings, but when- 5 ever there was a meeting I would attend it.

-̂ id the police attend your public meetings? Yes.

Did they take notes of what was said? Yes. Apart'from your own branch members, did 10

leaders from Johannesburg ever come to address your public meetings? Yes.

Can you give the names of any prominent people from Johannesburg whom you remember hearing at your meetings? The only name I can recall now is Mr. Nokwe.15

Do you know who the President-General of the African National Congress is? Yes, it is Luthuli.

Have you ever heard him speak? Yes, I have. Where was that? In Johannesburg. Have you ev^r had guest speakers from the 20

Indian Congress or tho Congress of Democrats at your meetings? I have never heard Indian speakers at our meetings.

iSuropean speakers? — I have heard one, Mr. •Goldberg. 25

Just'tell us briefly about some of the activi-ties of the Lady Selborne Branch. Do you remember the Congress of the People? Yes, I do.

Did your branch do anything aspart of the Congress of the People Campaign? No, My Lord, I did 30

17793. (J. MOKAMEDS)

not hear anything about that in Lady Selborne. Did you discuss it at all at your meetings?

I never heard it being discussed. Did you yourself attend the meeting in Kliptown?

I did not, My Lord. 5 Do you remember when Bantu Education was

introduced in 1955? I do. Was there any discussion of that in your

meetings? Yes, speakers did speak about it. Did you actually organise a boycott of the 10

schools in Lady Selborne? No, My Lord. Do you know anything about the removal of

people from Soph iatown in Johannesburg? I only knew that people are being removed from there, My Lord.

Was there any discussion o f that in your meetings? Yes, there was discussion.

Did you know what the African National Congress had told the people of Sophiatown to do? No, My Lord.

In 1956, was there any discussion about ref-erence books fof women? Yes. 20

Do you know whether the women of your branch did anything about that? No, I know nothing of what was done by the women.

Y/ere you a freedom volunteer? Yes, I was. What were your duties as a freedom volunteer? 25

It was my duty My Lord as a volunteer to see that all meetings were conducted peacefully and that there

should be no commotion of any kind in the meeting. Did you have any other duties? No, My Lord. Do you know approximately how many volunteers

17794. (J. MOKAMSDE)

there were in lady Selborne? About forty, My Lord. Were any study classes held for the volunteers

in Lady Selborne? No. Have you heard of the M-Plan? No, My Lord. As a result of your activitiesover the years, 5

do you think what the policy of the A.N.C. was during 1952 and 1956? The only object was freedom, My Lord.

And how was freedom to be achieved? I knew that, My Lord, we had to come together, we had to talk to the authorities and plead with them to give us freedom.10

Was there anything beyond that? No, My Lord. You have testified that you took part in the

Defiance Campaign? Yes, My Lord. Well, was that part of the policy of the A.N.C.?

Yes. 15 Was there anything else which the A.N.C. was

going to do? No. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. NO QUESTIONS BY THE CROWN.

JANE MOTSHABI, duly sworn? EXAMINED BY MR„ FISCHER :

You were born in Bloemfontein, Mrs. Motshabi, in 1924? That is correct, My Lord-

You attended school in Bloemfontein and passed your Standard Six? That is correct.

And thereafter you went to the Kroonstad Govern-ment High School and completed the work for the Junior Certificate? That is correct, My Lord.

17795. (J. MOTSHABI)

You were employed in one or two ways and then subsequently you became an agent of the National Union Life Assurance, and you are still such an agent? That is correct. I

You got married in 1949? That is correct. 5 When did you join the African National Congress?

In july, 1952. Before that had there been a number of meetings

held by the African National Congress? I knew about meetings of the African National Congress, My Lord, during 10 the Defiance Campaign.

It was during the Defiance Campaign that you joined? That is correct.

I think you became a member of the Provincial Executive Committee in the same year? Yes. 15

And you remained a member of that committee until the banning of the organisation this year? Yes.

During the Defiance Campaign, did you hear speakers explain the policy and the methods of the African National Congress? Yes, it was at those meetings 20 that I heard about this policy that I learnt about.

"Very briefly, because the Court has been told on a number of occasions, what did you understand the policy of thvi Congress to be and what was the method? My Lord, I know that the African National Congress was 25 building up the nation, and it was against laws which were oppressing the people, laws which refused people to be of equal value.

What methods were to be used? M̂ Lord, the members would then sacrifice themselves to build up the 30

17795. (J. MOTSHABI)

nation, avoiding violence, avoiding bloodshed, that there should be no fighting amongst the various racial groups and that people shall carry themselves in a respectful manner.

And what means were to be used? They must 5 draw up petitions, My Lord, to take their complaints to the Commissioners and to the powers that be. My Lord, and to carry one - to carry out things that were done during the Defiance Campaign, to go to public places where people normally were refused permission to go. 10

Yes? And to conduct strikes a s an indica-tion of their being against low wages.

Those were some of the methods which you knew of. From whom did you hear about the policy and the methods? I heard from Congress speakers, My Lord, 15 like Mr. Mafura (?), and Mrs. Mtakwane (?),

And others? And also the National Conferen-ces, My Lord, where we heard a man like Mr. Resha and Mrs. Ngoyi and Mr. Rakawane.

Just tell the Court please, Mr. Maforo, was 20 he the President of the Free State National Congress?

At the time of my joining the movement, My Lord, he was not the President. He was elected at the end of that year as president.

And was he president from then on until the 25 banning? That is correct.

From then on, from the time you joined, did you attend National and Provincial Conferences? Most of them, yes.

At Conferences like that, did you hear such 30

17795. (J. MOTSHABI)

people as the following speak; Reverend Calata? Yes. Moses Mabida? Jes. Robert Resha? Yes. Mqotha? Yes. Hutchinson? Yes. 5 Rakoane? Yes. Masina? Yes. And others? Yes. Did you ever hear it suggested "by any speaker

that you hard that the A.N.C. should use force to achieve 10 its ends? Violence was strongly opposed.

Do you approve of that? I do not approve of violence.

Have you visited other "branches of the Congress in the Free State? Yes, I have. 15

I would just like you to tell the Court where they are. How many branches are there in Bloemfontein?

There are two in Bloemfontein, My Lord. Before Congress was banned, My Lord, there were two branches.

In what other towns in the Free Stat*- were there20 branches of the African National Congress? Ficksburg, Dewetsdorp, Wepener, Winburg, Theunissen, Bethlehem, Kroonstad, Thaba 'Nchu.

Have you visited many of these branches? I have visited some of these branches, but not all. 25

Did you visit them on Congress business? Yes. Did you - did the Congress organise meetings in

Bloemfontein? Yes. At first, in the Defiance Campaign, I think

you used to have meetings twice a month? That is correct.

17795. (J. MOTSHABI)

And that continued for a number of years? Yes.

You had to get permission for those meetings and they wore held at the weekend? Yes, My Lord, we made application per letter for permission to hold meetings. Wo had to get permission from the Location Manager and the Special Branch.

Were these meetings attended by the police? Yes, they attended all meetings.

And they took notes? That is correct. How many speakers spoke at these meetings,

approximately? In our letters for permission to hold meetings, we used to mention four to six speakers. Th ,re could be more speakers from the floor and those speakers get permission to do so.

Later on you were prevented from having meetings at the weekend? That is correct, and on public holidays as well.

And then the meetings were much fewer, because people couldn't come from their work? That is so.

But the weekend meetings went up till when? — My Lord, after the strike in connection with the pound a day campaign, the authorities refused us permission to hold meetings during the weekends and on public holidays

When was that? I think it was during 1958. Up till that time the meetings had been held

regularly twice a month? Yes, up to about that time. Do you know whether other branches also held

regular meetings? Those who had meetings were the Ficksburg branch, the Bethlehem people were also denied permission to hold meetings.

17795. (J. MOTSHABI)

But some did hold? Those who held tho meetings were the Ficksburg people. My Lord, in places like Kroonstad we were denied permission to hold meetings, it was a prohibited area.

I don't want to ask you aboutall the things 5 which the Free State Congress did. They took part in the Defiance Campaign and the Congress of the People and held meetings ahout ttoe Western Areas Removal, didn't they? That is so.

With regard to the Western Areas Removal, were 10 you told of any special action about staying at home which was to be taken? We understood that people in Sophiatown were to be removed, there would be hardship, these people were used to their surroundings and that there was not - the compensation they would get for their 15 properties would not be adequate at all. Because of that, My Lord, we all came to a common agreement that we should sympathise with them and all of us should remain at home during that period.

And what happened? What do you mean during 20 that period? What period? On the day on which the removal was put into operation.

Did that happen? Some people remained at home and others went to work.

Do you know whether that was on the day of the 25 removal of some other day? On the day of the first removal or some other day? It was on the day on which the removal was supposed to have taken place.

Bantu education, did the Free State do anything about school boycotts? People in the Free State did 30 not like Bantu Education, but the manner in which it was

17795. (J. MOTSHABI)

brought to thorn, the people were under the impression that they would get a full explanation about what Bantu Education was. No explanation was given to the people, the people were told to go on with the election(?), and in that manner it was apparent that they had already 5n accepted Bantu Education because they had elected the body which was to run it.

So there was not much protest in Bloemfontein? That is correct, My Lord.

Turn your mind a moment to passes for women? 10 I - Did you attend the Pretoria demonstration? I did, My Lord.

Did others come from the Free State with you? On the first occasion I came with two other women.

On the second occasion I think we were ten women in all 15 from Bloemfontein, and others from other branches.

Did you also have a meeting in Bloemfontein about this? We had several meetings, My Lord. And also delegates who were elected at those meetings.

What did they do? They brought in petitions 20

ofprotest against the issuing of passes to women. They

also went to the Commissioner. What did you do in Bloemfontein about educating

members of Congress? My Lord, there were two branches in Bloemfontein and there were several sub-committees. 25 It was in these committee meetings where members were taught about Congress - where members were educated about Congress.

Did you hold classes for members who were not - for people wh were not members of the committees?

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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