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·4· · · · · · ELLIOT LAKE COMMISSION OF INQUIRY

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12· · --- This is Day 88 in the Inquiry proceedings held

13· ·before the Honourable Justice P.R. Bélanger,

14· ·Commissioner, taken at the White Mountain Academy

15· ·of the Arts, 99 Spine Road, Elliot Lake, Ontario,

16· ·on the 21st day of August, 2013, commencing at 9:00

17· ·a.m.

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22· · · · · · ·REPORTED BY:· Deana Santedicola

23· · · · · · · · · · · CSR, CRR, RPR

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·1· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:

·2· ·Nadia Authier, Esq.,· · · · ·Commission Counsel

·3· ·& Duncan Ault, Esq.,

·4· ·& Mark Wallace, Esq.,

·5· ·& Kyle Lambert, Esq.,

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·7· ·Ernie Thorne,· · · · · · · · Ontario Professional

·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Fire Fighters

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10· ·Carolyn McKenna, Esq.,· · · ·Ontario Fire Chiefs

11· ·& Brad Bigrigg, Esq.,· · · · Association

12· ·& John Saunders, Esq.,

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14· ·Richard Oliver, Esq.,· · · · For the City of

15· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Toronto/HUSAR

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17· ·Paul Cassan, Esq.,· · · · · ·City of Elliot Lake

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19· ·Norm Feaver, Esq.,· · · · · ·OPP

20· ·& Ken Hogg, Esq.,

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22· ·Chuck Myles,· · · · · · · · ·SAGE

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24· ·Shawn Richard, Esq.,· · · · ·ELMAC

25· ·& Alexandra Carr, Esq.,

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·2· ·A P P E A R A N C E S (CONT'D):

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·4· ·Darrell Kloeze, Esq.,· · · · Government of Ontario

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X

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·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGES

·4· ·DISCUSSION RE SCHEDULING................21402-21407

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·6· ·WITNESS:· DARREN CONNORS

·7· ·EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. AUTHIER

·8· ·(CONT'D)................................21407-21473

·9· ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CARR...........21473-21476

10· ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SAUNDERS.......21476-21481

11· ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. THORNE.........21481-21485

12· ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MYLES..........21485-21487

13· ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. OLIVER.........21487-21489

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15· ·WITNESS:· PAUL OFFICER

16· ·EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. WALLACE.....21490-21690

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·1· · · · · · · · · · INDEX OF EXHIBITS

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·3· ·NUMBER· · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE NO.

·4· ·NO. 8110· · Identification by Captain

·5· · · · · · · ·Connors of the location

·6· · · · · · · ·of the second victim...........21418

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·8· ·NO. 8111· · Identification by Captain

·9· · · · · · · ·Connors of the approximate

10· · · · · · · ·location of where Lucie

11· · · · · · · ·Aylwin was found...............21464

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·1· ·-- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m.

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·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Good morning,

·4· ·everybody.

·5· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· Good morning,

·6· ·Mr. Commissioner.

·7· · · · · · · ·I understand before we continue with

·8· ·this witness that Mr. Saunders has a request that

·9· ·he wants to make to the Commission.

10· · · · · · · ·MR. SAUNDERS:· Yes, just with regard to

11· ·timing if it is possible with regard to the -- oh,

12· ·sorry, just with regard to timing with regard to

13· ·the cross-examination of Police Chief or Fire Chief

14· ·Paul Officer, unfortunately, I need to be in

15· ·Toronto tomorrow and on next Monday.· I am

16· ·anticipating we'll finish with the current witness

17· ·today and I am going to guess by noon.

18· · · · · · · ·I can't imagine we will be finished

19· ·with Mr. Officer probably by the end of Thursday,

20· ·if not into Friday.· I can be here on Friday, but

21· ·I'm just seeking an indulgence with regard to when

22· ·I could do my cross-examination.· I can be here on

23· ·Friday and I can be here on Tuesday with regard to

24· ·that.

25· · · · · · · ·So he is the Fire Chief and I am here

·1· ·on behalf of the Ontario Fire Chiefs Association.

·2· ·We can certainly bring him back and split him if

·3· ·need be.· I don't anticipate it will be a problem.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Well, of course, in

·5· ·that sense then your application may be premature,

·6· ·Mr. Saunders.

·7· · · · · · · ·MR. SAUNDERS:· Exactly, and so --

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· What is the nature

·9· ·of that commitment?· Are you prepared to let me

10· ·know so that I can gauge the importance of the

11· ·commitment that you have?

12· · · · · · · ·MR. SAUNDERS:· Yes, I am Counsel for

13· ·the City of London Fire Interest Arbitration, which

14· ·is scheduled for Thursday of this week and Monday

15· ·of next week.· It is a continuation.· It is being

16· ·held in London, Ontario.· It is a three-person

17· ·panel Interest Arbitration Board comprised of three

18· ·Arbitrators.

19· · · · · · · ·We will have over I'm anticipating 75

20· ·fire fighters in attendance and 15 people from the

21· ·City to set the terms and conditions of employment

22· ·for the fire fighters in the City of London.

23· · · · · · · ·So that is the issue.· It has been

24· ·booked for over a year with regard to that, and it

25· ·is a continuing matter for which I am lead Counsel

·1· ·and will be doing all the presentations on those

·2· ·two days.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And no one can

·4· ·replace you in London?

·5· · · · · · · ·MR. SAUNDERS:· No, absolutely not.

·6· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And then the other

·7· ·question is can anyone replace you here?

·8· · · · · · · ·MR. SAUNDERS:· I have my colleague

·9· ·here, Ms. McKenna, and I am quite prepared to

10· ·utilize her for any other witness with the

11· ·exception of the Fire Chief, who from our

12· ·perspective is the premier witness in this matter.

13· · · · · · · ·Certainly she will be using her skills

14· ·with regard to the cross-examination of other

15· ·witnesses, but in terms of Fire Chief Officer, it

16· ·would seem to me that that should be reserved to

17· ·myself.

18· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· You understand, of

19· ·course, Mr. Saunders, that any adjournment, any

20· ·deviation from schedule doesn't just inconvenience

21· ·me; it inconveniences everybody.

22· · · · · · · ·MR. SAUNDERS:· I understand that, and

23· ·frankly, that is why I'm raising it now.· I suspect

24· ·that it might just be a moot point eventually, but

25· ·I'm just raising it now on the off chance that it

·1· ·could occur.

·2· · · · · · · ·So I don't think we need to make any

·3· ·decision at this point, if that is possible.· As I

·4· ·say, I cannot be here Thursday and Monday in terms

·5· ·of that, but I can be here Friday and Tuesday.

·6· ·Actually, I have another case next Wednesday which

·7· ·is also a continuation.· It is a termination of a

·8· ·Brampton fire fighter who is charged with theft.

·9· · · · · · · ·The difficulty with all of these types

10· ·of inquiries and the changing dates is that, you

11· ·know, we all live with and we all understand in

12· ·terms of that is that those of us who also have

13· ·outside practices, we keep juggling.

14· · · · · · · ·I have certainly cancelled a number of

15· ·hearings to be here and will continue to do that,

16· ·but there are some cases that I just can't get out

17· ·of because they are continuations where I am the

18· ·Counsel.

19· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right, well, as

20· ·you say, it may be a moot point and I'll -- and I

21· ·thank you.· I'll treat your comments this morning

22· ·as a heads-up, and we'll come to a definitive

23· ·decision, if we have to, at a later time.

24· · · · · · · ·Counsel, Crown Counsel -- or the

25· ·Commission Counsel have anything to say?

·1· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· The only issue is I know

·2· ·that Mr. Saunders indicated continuing the

·3· ·cross-examination of Chief Officer on Friday.· That

·4· ·is not going to be a possibility.· We do have two

·5· ·witnesses scheduled for Friday who must be called

·6· ·on Friday.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So if we are not

·8· ·finished with Chief Officer on Thursday, it is

·9· ·going to have to go to another date anyways.

10· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So that is another

12· ·wrinkle in the problem.

13· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· And the other thing that

14· ·I want to raise is that, yes, the schedule does

15· ·move because of length of time required to call the

16· ·evidence that is longer than anticipated, but there

17· ·is a lot of considerations that do go into these

18· ·schedules, officer -- police officer and other

19· ·witnesses' holiday schedules and a great deal of

20· ·consideration goes into creating these things, and

21· ·to change them on an ad hoc basis becomes quite

22· ·difficult and difficult to manage for not only

23· ·Commission Counsel but everyone else in the room as

24· ·well and the witnesses.

25· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Absolutely.· How

·1· ·about, Chief Officer, are you going to be here,

·2· ·Chief?· Have you got any commitments in the coming

·3· ·weeks that can't be moved around?

·4· · · · · · · ·CHIEF PAUL OFFICER:· I can make -- I

·5· ·have already changed my holidays a couple of times,

·6· ·so I am local and I can make those changes.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right, well,

·8· ·we'll bear that in mind as well, if and when that

·9· ·issue arises again.· Thank you.

10· · · · · · · ·Good morning, sir.

11· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Good morning.

12· · · · · · · ·DARREN CONNORS:· SWORN PREVIOUSLY.

13· · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. AUTHIER

14· · · · · · · ·(CONT'D):

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Captain Connors.

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Good morning.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you for coming in again

18· ·today.

19· · · · · · · ·When we left off yesterday, we were

20· ·speaking about the communications that you had had

21· ·with the victim that you -- and you identified the

22· ·location on the photograph that we looked at

23· ·yesterday.· And you indicated that at one point you

24· ·left the communications with that victim to go and

25· ·do other things.

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I just wanted to ask you,

·3· ·other than the communications that you had on

·4· ·Saturday and generally the communications in

·5· ·general on Saturday, are you aware of anyone else

·6· ·having communications with the person who was

·7· ·located in the area you identified?· Are you aware

·8· ·of anyone else having communications with that

·9· ·victim throughout the four-day event?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·In the same way that I did?

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·In the same way that you did.

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not in the same way that myself or

13· ·John, no.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and what -- were there any

15· ·other communications of any kind?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, the only other thing that

17· ·we know of is the dogs and the machine, the life

18· ·finder machine.· I'm not sure of the proper name

19· ·for it.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So other than the dogs and

21· ·the LifeLocator, you are not aware of any other

22· ·communications that took place with this victim?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, there was the mention of the

24· ·tapping sounds.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And I don't recall who told me

·2· ·that.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the tapping sounds, do you

·4· ·know who heard those tapping sounds?· Was it

·5· ·someone from the Elliot Lake Fire Department?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't believe so.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So it was someone else who was in

·8· ·the mall at the time?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you recall approximately

11· ·the timing of that?· Was it the next day?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I left when we all left the first

13· ·day and I didn't come back until afternoon-ish on

14· ·the Sunday, so I'm not -- I couldn't say what time

15· ·that was that was heard.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, all right, and we'll come

17· ·back to the dogs and the LifeLocator in a moment.

18· · · · · · · ·Now, after you left -- after you

19· ·stopped your communications with Lucie, I

20· ·understand that a camera was brought in, one of the

21· ·sewer cameras was brought in?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And were you involved in that?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I sat on the tail board of

25· ·the truck, the yellow cube van that you see in the

·1· ·photograph here --

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·-- and ran the monitor, so I was

·4· ·able to look at where the camera was and be able to

·5· ·radio back and forth to the person on the other end

·6· ·to try and move it one way or the other.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so when they brought in the

·8· ·sewer camera, you left the interior of the mall and

·9· ·you were now on the outside?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you were watching the monitor?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And while you were watching the

14· ·monitor, did you see anything in terms of where the

15· ·camera was being placed within the voids?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I could see where the camera

17· ·was going.· Whether or not I could recognize what

18· ·it was, it was very hard to tell.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so the image that you were

20· ·seeing -- the sewer cameras, do they have a light

21· ·on the end with the camera?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe it did.· I can't -- I'm

23· ·not a hundred percent on it, but I assume it would

24· ·have to to be able to -- because sewers are

25· ·generally a dark place, so yeah.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So were you able to make out

·2· ·anything in the images that you were seeing?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, at times, like I say, you

·4· ·couldn't tell the size of the void until you saw

·5· ·something that was recognizable, and I recall

·6· ·seeing like a pack of cigarettes and so that gave

·7· ·me some indication as to the size of the void that

·8· ·that camera was in.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And do you recall just

10· ·generally what you saw when the camera was being

11· ·placed into the voids?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Mostly debris, like small pieces

13· ·of concrete or insulation and which was hard to

14· ·judge, obviously, until you saw something that you

15· ·could compare it against.· I very rarely saw

16· ·anything substantial, recognizable.· Like I saw the

17· ·odd pack of cigarettes or maybe a magazine and that

18· ·was it.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you never saw clothing?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·A hand?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Nothing like that.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right, Ms. Kuka, if I

24· ·could have you pull up it is Exhibit No. 8044 and

25· ·it is page 6.· And before I get to this, do you

·1· ·recall how long you spent in terms of looking at

·2· ·the camera?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't.· It is -- like I say,

·4· ·everything that happened that day, I wasn't looking

·5· ·at my watch.· And if anything, if a radio

·6· ·communication was made, it would have been marked

·7· ·that way, but I honestly I don't know.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And from the time that you had

·9· ·stopped your communications with Lucie to when you

10· ·started --

11· · · · · · · ·MR. CASSAN:· Mr. Commissioner, I have

12· ·an objection to my friend's question at this point.

13· ·It has not been established that Captain Connors

14· ·was communicating with Lucie.· I don't think that

15· ·evidence will ever come forward, and it is

16· ·certainly a characterization that she is putting

17· ·forward.

18· · · · · · · ·But it is not consistent with the

19· ·evidence that has been led to date, and I think it

20· ·is an over-characterization of that.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Ms. Authier?

22· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· Sorry, I do apologize. I

23· ·was not intending to identify that he was speaking

24· ·directly with Lucie.· The reason I used Lucie was

25· ·because she was ultimately the one found in the

·1· ·area near where the communications were taking

·2· ·place.· It was never my intention to specify that

·3· ·Lucie was the one he was communicating with.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right.

·5· · · · · · · ·MR. CASSAN:· With that clarification,

·6· ·that is fine.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

·8· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· So from the time that

10· ·you stopped communicating with the victim to when

11· ·you start operating the camera -- well, you have

12· ·got the monitor --

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- on the exterior of the mall.

15· ·What did you do in the interim?· Or did you go

16· ·right from stopping your communications to

17· ·operating the monitor?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know if I took a break to

19· ·rehydrate or -- I mean, things seemed to be pretty

20· ·quick.· I know I recall the one break I did take

21· ·because a paramedic friend of mine kind of made me

22· ·take some Gatorade and eat something.· But I never

23· ·wanted to be on a break very long, so it was get

24· ·back in and do something.· So the timing is -- I

25· ·don't recall a lot of timing.· It is very blurry as

·1· ·to how long you are in there and what you are

·2· ·doing.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Are you able to say whether or not

·4· ·you communicated with the victim first and then did

·5· ·the camera or --

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, that is the order that it --

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That is the order?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yeah.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, all right.· And so if we

10· ·could just go, Ms. Kuka, it is page 6 of the notes,

11· ·and it is the time entry at 16:37.· Sorry, that

12· ·should be page 8, I apologize, Ms. Kuka.

13· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· Page 8 of the note or page 8

14· ·of the document?

15· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Page 8 of the document, sorry, at

17· ·16:37.· Thank you.

18· · · · · · · ·And these we established, we identified

19· ·these with Captain Thomas.· These are Chief

20· ·Officer's notes as he prepared based on the

21· ·communications that occurred in the four-day

22· ·period, and we see that the 16:37, and this is

23· ·still the first day --

24· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· I can't see 16:37,

25· ·Ms. Authier, on what is up on my screen.

·1· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It has the word "Approx"

·2· ·in front of it.

·3· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· Yes, so it says 16:34:51

·4· ·that is right above it, and then "Approx" at

·5· ·16:37 --

·6· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Oh, I see, okay, I'm

·7· ·with you.· Thank you very much.

·8· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And it says:

10· · · · · · · · · "IC [...]"

11· · · · · · · ·And I take it that IC is still Chief

12· ·Officer at this point?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] had fire fighter Connors

15· ·[...]", which is yourself?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] to go in with two EMS to

18· · · · · · · ·check for vitals on the one victim."

19· · · · · · · ·And do you recall today, one, going in

20· ·with the two EMS --

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I do recall leading them in,

22· ·and it was to show them how to get around.

23· ·However, I was not standing with them with the

24· ·victim.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall which

·1· ·victim they were going in to check vitals on?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, after everything is said and

·3· ·done, I believe that that was Doloris.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we pull up, again, Exhibit

·5· ·No. 7924, page 46, Ms. Kuka, and when you brought

·6· ·the two EMS in, where did you stand while they went

·7· ·in?· And she'll show you the picture.

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay, I basically made it to what

·9· ·I call the curtain of concrete.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And because I myself did not see

12· ·any sign of that victim, and I knew afterwards,

13· ·because I believe somebody marked it with some fire

14· ·line tape, the spot, like I got them as far as the

15· ·curtain and handed them off.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you identify on the photo

17· ·where this curtain is, the curtain of debris?

18· ·Because we know from previous photos that the

19· ·left-hand side of the photo should be north, and so

20· ·where -- is the curtain the north side?· Is it the

21· ·south side?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Would you like me to use the mouse

23· ·to point that out?

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, please.

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Roughly right here you can

·1· ·actually see this -- oops, sorry --

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so --

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Within that box you can see how

·4· ·the concrete is running vertically to the ground,

·5· ·and that is where we would have come in, more to

·6· ·the far side of that line, the box.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so what you described as the

·8· ·curtain of debris is behind the back end of the

·9· ·SUV?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct, the back end of the SUV

11· ·is kind of closer to the left side of the kiosk,

12· ·and then the right side of the kiosk is obviously

13· ·against that wall.· You can see the fire bell on

14· ·the wall there.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, all right.· And, Ms. Kuka,

16· ·if we can just erase this marking here.· And,

17· ·Captain Connors, I'm going to ask you to just

18· ·identify where the EMS individuals went in terms of

19· ·checking the vitals of that victim, where was that

20· ·second victim located?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I wasn't watching them personally.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·But I know they were in roughly --

24· ·oh, that box is too big, sorry.· The mouse got away

25· ·on me.· I'll try that again.· They were roughly

·1· ·within this area here.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is not a box either, sorry.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·No, that is close enough.· Ms.

·5· ·Kuka, if we could save that as the next exhibit,

·6· ·being the identification by Captain Connors of the

·7· ·location of the second victim.

·8· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· Exhibit No. 8110.

·9· · · · · · · ·EXHIBIT NO. 8110:· Identification by

10· · · · · · · ·Captain Connors of the location of the

11· · · · · · · ·second victim.

12· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.

14· · · · · · · ·And so after the EMS -- after you

15· ·brought in the two EMS personnel, did you leave the

16· ·mall at that point?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I didn't stick behind with

18· ·them.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you brought them in.· You

20· ·didn't stick around to guide them back out?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.· No.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you left, and at this

23· ·point do you recall if you went for rehab at that

24· ·point?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I may have.· I don't -- like I

·1· ·say, I don't have the times very specific on that.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·While you were using the sewer

·3· ·camera, did you notice any movement in terms of the

·4· ·debris?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Knowing the size of the voids, I

·6· ·know the size of the debris that I did see fall and

·7· ·it was mostly dust, small, like pebble-sized pieces

·8· ·of concrete, after I was able to gauge that to say

·9· ·something like a package of cigarettes, and the

10· ·camera itself would knock things, the end of it.

11· ·It was when the helicopter was overhead that it was

12· ·more noticeable.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and when the helicopter was

14· ·overhead, were you inside the building or outside?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I was still outside of the

16· ·building on the camera.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what did you notice when the

18· ·helicopter was overhead?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·An increase of the small debris

20· ·raining down in front of the camera.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you notice anything else?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not from that view.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you ever enter the

24· ·building while the helicopter was overhead?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the entire time that the

·2· ·helicopter had been flying overhead, you never went

·3· ·in?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I was always on the screen.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And can you hear all of the radio

·6· ·communications that are going on at that time?· So

·7· ·if Captain Thomas is making a radio communication

·8· ·or Captain Barnes, if they are communicating from

·9· ·inside, can you hear all of that through your

10· ·radio?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Through my radio, yes, we are all

12· ·on the same channel.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what -- were they making any

14· ·communications with respect to the helicopter being

15· ·overhead?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, there was talk of the beam.

17· ·I think there was a mention of something, of things

18· ·falling, not -- I mean, when you look at the

19· ·pictures and the overhanging, they are small bricks

20· ·and stuff that we were concerned with, but the most

21· ·concern was with the beam, the severed beam, that

22· ·it had some flex to it.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So were they communicating

24· ·back that the beam was moving when the helicopter

25· ·was overhead?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·As far as I recall, yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And once you were done, once

·3· ·Captain Thomas had finished putting all the --

·4· ·putting the camera in all the voids that he could

·5· ·access and the camera is put away, do you go back

·6· ·into the pile at that point?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I understand that at one point

·9· ·in that rescue effort everyone is called out?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And who made that call?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe that was Ken Barnes,

13· ·because he was acting as our eyes, so the Safety

14· ·Officer.· And from what he saw, he didn't feel it

15· ·was -- he felt it was getting more dangerous and

16· ·made that call.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall what he said in

18· ·terms of what he was seeing that was making it

19· ·unsafe for the fire fighters to be in there?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Word for word I couldn't quote

21· ·him, but I think his main concerns were that beam

22· ·and the doors that would have led into the hotel

23· ·level.· I mean, we all recognized that those were

24· ·kind of hanging there precariously.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And was there a discussion

·1· ·between Captain Barnes and Chief Officer in terms

·2· ·of the conditions within the mall?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I didn't witness the discussion,

·4· ·but obviously there would have been.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so Captain Barnes orders

·6· ·everyone out, and at this point when he orders

·7· ·everyone out, has the helicopter left?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·There was -- over the radio it was

·9· ·told to try and get a hold of one of the OPP

10· ·officers to radio to the helicopter to see if he

11· ·could, you know, fly a little further away from us

12· ·for the time being.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when the helicopter -- do you

14· ·recall if the helicopter left before everyone left

15· ·the mall?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think so.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Because he was very -- it was

19· ·noticeable that he was there.· It was -- it is a

20· ·loud machine.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you recall if once the

22· ·helicopter left, if the movement stopped?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·On the camera it settled a bit,

24· ·and like I say, that is the only part I could see.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So there seemed to be an impact

·1· ·from the helicopter moving out?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I just wanted to ask you, because

·4· ·in your statement to the OPP, which we actually

·5· ·have -- well, it is a summary of the statement that

·6· ·you made to the OPP, and it is at Exhibit No. 8023,

·7· ·Ms. Kuka.· And there is a comment that is

·8· ·attributed to you in this summary, and I just want

·9· ·to ask you about that.· And, Ms. Kuka, it is page 2

10· ·of the doc ID.· And it is the first paragraph, the

11· ·very last sentence where what is attributed to you

12· ·is:

13· · · · · · · · · "There were no voids anywhere."

14· · · · · · · ·And I just want to ask you, firstly, is

15· ·that something you recall saying in your interview

16· ·with the OPP officers?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Probably, but when I think of a

18· ·void in that sense, I was probably thinking of

19· ·something that we could gain access to physically.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so when you were saying

21· ·there were no voids anywhere, can you just give us

22· ·a better understanding of what you meant when you

23· ·made that statement?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think when I was talking to the

25· ·officers and trying to explain to them what we were

·1· ·going into, I mean, it was a pile of debris.· There

·2· ·was no simple void that any of us could crawl into

·3· ·to look, like a tunnel, per se, you know, nothing

·4· ·larger than being able to reach in with your arm or

·5· ·stick your face into.· I think it is just, it was a

·6· ·short answer on that.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so there were voids, but

·8· ·certainly nothing big enough for an adult --

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not a textbook void like you would

10· ·see, you know, with -- in a book where it is

11· ·explaining a pancake or something like that.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Uhm-hmm.

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·You know, they actually show a

14· ·picture of somebody in it.· There was nothing that

15· ·we could gain access to.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, all right.· And now, Ms.

17· ·Kuka, if we can go back to Exhibit No. 7524, and

18· ·this is your witness statement that you prepared a

19· ·couple of days later.· And, Ms. Kuka, it is the

20· ·last page of that document.· And we see the very

21· ·last thing you have indicated in your witness

22· ·statement is that you returned to the hall, and I

23· ·take that to mean the Fire Hall?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At 19:00 hours, so 7 o'clock, to

·1· ·rest and carry on Sunday.· So at 7 o'clock you have

·2· ·returned to the Fire Hall?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you go back to the mall at

·5· ·any point on the Saturday night?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.· I cleaned up what we --

·7· ·normally, we clean up our equipment at the hall if

·8· ·there is anything brought back, and return home,

·9· ·change, and I was back out to camp shortly, as

10· ·quickly as I could, and rest and be ready to go

11· ·back the next day.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you weren't on shift --

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- on the Saturday night?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I was on my days off.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you wrapped up what needed to

17· ·be wrapped up and then you went back to camp?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall -- so did you return

20· ·to the mall on the Sunday?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall approximately what

23· ·time it was?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Sometime after lunch hour I called

25· ·in to see what was needed and what we were going to

·1· ·do, and I proceeded back into town to the station.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you called in, do you

·3· ·recall who you would have spoken to?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't remember, no.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you called in, what were

·6· ·you told?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Come to the hall.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and so did you go directly

·9· ·to the hall or to the mall?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, directly to the hall.· My

11· ·bunker gear is kept at the hall.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you went to the hall and you

13· ·put on your bunker gear?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then from there did you await

16· ·further instruction?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, my instruction was basically

18· ·when I made the phone call, come to the station,

19· ·and I think I might have even walked over from the

20· ·station.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So essentially you went to

22· ·the hall, you put on your bunker gear and then went

23· ·directly to the mall?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Directly to the mall.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And at that point, so

·1· ·you get to the mall and it is sometime after lunch,

·2· ·so we are Sunday early afternoon, what is going on

·3· ·at the scene when you get there?· Do you recall?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I'm trying to remember all the

·5· ·vehicles I saw there.· Ours was still there. I

·6· ·believe HUSAR was setting up.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· I'm sorry, I

·8· ·didn't hear that answer.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sorry, our vehicles were

10· ·there still.· HUSAR was setting up.· I can't

11· ·remember if they had their MASH-type tents set up

12· ·or not.· And I mean, the next -- the following days

13· ·were, they were all the same.· It is just I was

14· ·showing up and making myself available to help out.

15· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you show up on the

17· ·Sunday.· Who do you -- do you check in with anyone?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I report to our pumper where we

19· ·would have our accountability board set up.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And who was at the pumper at that

21· ·time?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I can't remember.· Like I mean, I

23· ·mean --

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·-- I worked with everybody over

·1· ·those days.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you would have gone to the

·3· ·pumper and you tagged in?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Were you given a task at that

·6· ·time?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Nothing specific at that time.

·8· ·More importantly, it was tagging in and hanging

·9· ·tight and waiting.· And I mean, there was a variety

10· ·of tasks to do throughout the day.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at the time that you arrived

12· ·on the Sunday, had any of the cranes arrived yet?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I know I remember seeing cranes.

14· ·I don't -- I really -- the next day is really bad.

15· ·I mean, the first day, I'm still playing that back.

16· ·So I can tell you everything that I saw there. I

17· ·just really can't say when they arrived.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· On the Sunday do you do any

19· ·shoring?· Do you assist with any of that?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I had time to time helped out

21· ·where I could with them.· Whether or not the

22· ·Sunday, I don't remember the exact day.· I know one

23· ·specific task later on that I had to look at and it

24· ·took some research to find out when I actually did

25· ·it.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, but at some point in the --

·2· ·from the Sunday to the Wednesday, you assisted with

·3· ·shoring?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm, yeah, there was -- and I

·5· ·was helping out in the backside, more of the

·6· ·utility side of the building.· I recall helping out

·7· ·back there.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you say the utility side,

·9· ·you are referring to the north side closest to City

10· ·Hall?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right, where the loading bays are

12· ·and such.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what were you doing when you

14· ·were helping out in that area?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Just some extra muscle for the

16· ·guys.· It was a large, large piece of shoring that

17· ·they were assembling, and assisting them with

18· ·bracing while they nailed in the appropriate

19· ·pieces.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, I'm just going to help you

21· ·out a little bit in terms of memory.· Exhibit No.

22· ·6246, Ms. Kuka, and this is a report which was

23· ·prepared by Millennium Crane whom we understand was

24· ·the crane company that was there in the beginning.

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we look at his report, Ms.

·2· ·Kuka, it is page 5, and at the bottom we see 8:45

·3· ·Sunday, June 24th:

·4· · · · · · · · · "Ironworkers descended into

·5· · · · · · · ·position next to hanging beam with

·6· · · · · · · ·suspended system."

·7· · · · · · · ·Were you still on-site at this point

·8· ·when they are putting in the iron workers to start

·9· ·cutting the beam?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, this is the event that I

11· ·mentioned earlier where I had to do some research

12· ·to remember what day that actually happened.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when Millennium is set

14· ·up and ready to go on Sunday night, you are still

15· ·on-site?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what are you doing at this

18· ·point when the iron workers are being put into

19· ·position to start cutting the beam?· And I

20· ·understand the beam that is being cut is the one

21· ·that has failed; correct?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So what are you doing at this

24· ·point?· Where are you?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·We are -- we had our fire truck or

·1· ·pumper parked at the backside, or north side, as

·2· ·you refer to it, and running hose lines up the hill

·3· ·into the back doors that would be next to the

·4· ·library and then down the hallway towards the

·5· ·collapse zone, because what we needed to do was to

·6· ·be able to spray water near where they were doing

·7· ·the cutting to keep sparks from igniting any

·8· ·combustibles in the area.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you are spraying the

10· ·water, where are you standing?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I am -- if I might?

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The hallway, the doors, it is hard

14· ·to see, but the doors come in this way and the main

15· ·hallway of the mall runs this way towards the

16· ·collapse zone.· We are working at the edge on the

17· ·second floor, not right at the edge but maybe 10,

18· ·15 feet back, and aiming our water towards

19· ·underneath the beam where they are cutting.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you are inside the mall?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You are on the second floor?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Near the edge of the hole?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you are -- in terms of

·2· ·spraying the water, are you spraying the water into

·3· ·the hole?· What procedure are you using?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Trying to get it over the hole,

·5· ·because the sparks from the cutting, I can't spray

·6· ·it directly at the torch, obviously, and I don't

·7· ·want to get it into the hole.· I want to get it so

·8· ·that I am pushing the sparks across the floor of

·9· ·the food court, being that it is pretty much a

10· ·non-combustible area and try to get most of the

11· ·water on to that.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you are looking to shoot the

13· ·water across the hole?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And take out sparks as you go?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And why didn't you want the water

18· ·to go into the hole?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, there was -- you have the

20· ·insulation, pieces of insulation, some combustibles

21· ·down in the hole, and obviously, if we are -- any

22· ·victims that may be in there that may still be

23· ·alive and that we can rescue, you want to try and

24· ·not to fill the hole with water.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so did you stay in that

·1· ·position performing that task the entire time that

·2· ·they are cutting the beam?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Until the beam was finally cut

·4· ·through.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you were watching the

·6· ·procedure as it is being done?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And can you just describe to us

·9· ·how that went in terms of cutting of the beam?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I can't remember exactly how long

11· ·it took.· It felt like forever.· I had -- I believe

12· ·we had -- well, there was myself and Wayne Millett,

13· ·one of our volunteer fire fighters, so that we

14· ·could take turns on the hose lines and we always

15· ·work in pairs.· We had I believe at least two HUSAR

16· ·personnel and two of the UCRT personnel, and they

17· ·basically acted as our eyes and ears.· We had to

18· ·concentrate on where our water stream was going,

19· ·and they were keeping an eye on the hazards for us.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and so when they are cutting

21· ·the beam, is the beam being supported in any way?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The beam is being supported by I

23· ·guess it was one crane that lowered the basket for

24· ·the iron workers and another was rigged up to the

25· ·beam itself.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And once they successfully cut

·2· ·through the beam, what happens next?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, the beam releases and they

·4· ·carry it out through the hole and lay it down on

·5· ·the ground roughly ahead of my -- along the

·6· ·sidewalk ahead of my fire truck at the bottom

·7· ·there.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when the beam is cut and lets

·9· ·go, does it hit anything after it is let go?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't think it bounced off of

11· ·anything.· It was rigged in such a fashion I was

12· ·told that it would remain relatively in that

13· ·position.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did it remain relatively in

15· ·that position?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Relatively.· It startled me a bit,

17· ·but --

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But as far as you could tell, it

19· ·seemed to be successful --

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·As far as I could tell, yeah.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·In terms of what the plan had

22· ·been?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And how it was to proceed?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So they lifted --

·2· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· We do have

·3· ·Mr. Priestly, do we?

·4· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· It would be Mr. Selvers

·5· ·who was the owner of Millennium Crane, and yes, he

·6· ·will be coming in.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right.

·8· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· And there is actually a

·9· ·video of the beam being cut, and that will be shown

10· ·at that time.

11· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

12· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so they lift the beam out and

14· ·they put it on the ground outside, so not on the

15· ·roof, I take it?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct, yes, on the ground.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And once they finish

18· ·cutting the beam, are you then relieved of your

19· ·task?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·From that task, yeah.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think we kind of waited around

23· ·for a little bit just to make sure that there was

24· ·nothing burning and then gathered up our hose and

25· ·cleaned up our equipment.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And at that point, once you

·2· ·removed your equipment from the second floor, do

·3· ·you go back into the mall?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not back in, no.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you stay on the scene that

·6· ·night?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe so, yeah.· I was there a

·8· ·lot.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Were you there when they lifted

10· ·out the SUV?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you watch that operation?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I did.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, where were you when they

15· ·were lifting out the SUV?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Roughly in this parking lot area

17· ·here.· That is where we had the OFM truck and some

18· ·sun shades.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So would that be considered the

20· ·main parking lot on the ground level?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I suppose, yeah.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So over in the area by the

23· ·Foodland and that?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you are in that area and you

·1· ·are watching them take out the SUV?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when they --

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Did the SUV come out

·5· ·on the Sunday or the Monday?

·6· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Was it still that same night --

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· The beam comes out

·9· ·about --

10· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The beam -- I can't

11· ·remember the order of it.

12· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Did the beam come

13· ·out before the SUV?

14· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm trying to remember.

15· ·I don't remember, to be exact.· There would have

16· ·been an order.· I can't remember.· I can't

17· ·visualize if one of them might have been in the

18· ·way.

19· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· That is fine.

20· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is it still dark when they take

22· ·out the SUV?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was, yeah.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when they take out the SUV,

25· ·where do they place it?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe that they kind of placed

·2· ·it in this area right here.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So again, they placed it on the

·4· ·ground level parking lot?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yes.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And after they have taken out the

·7· ·SUV, do you continue watching?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I would, yeah, I was -- I mean,

·9· ·when we weren't tasked with anything, we just

10· ·watched to see what they were doing.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you see them take out any

12· ·slabs?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I did see a few pieces come out.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when the pieces of slab were

15· ·coming out, did you hear anyone make comments as to

16· ·how that went?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not really, no.· I saw them --

18· ·well, I didn't see them sling them, but obviously,

19· ·you could see that they slung them somehow, and

20· ·they came out and everything seemed to come out in

21· ·a similar fashion off to that one side.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So whenever you would see things

23· ·being taken out of the mall, you didn't see them

24· ·until they had --

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Left the hole.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- left the hole?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you couldn't -- from where you

·4· ·were standing, you couldn't see into the mall to

·5· ·see how the slinging was going?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And how the initial lifting was

·8· ·taking place?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall how long you stayed

11· ·while the hoisting was being done that first --

12· ·when the crane was there?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·So long as I was on scene there, I

14· ·would have watched, unless something else was asked

15· ·of me to do.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you know how long you stayed on

17· ·scene on the Sunday?· Did you stay into the

18· ·morning?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I would have to look at the SIR

20· ·Report to remember that, because Monday I would

21· ·have started my day shifts and throughout the rest

22· ·of the week I would go in for my day shifts and go

23· ·back to the mall either on the -- in the evenings

24· ·or throughout the night.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So on Monday you went back to your

·1· ·regular --

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Day shift.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- shift hours?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·But period -- throughout those

·5· ·next days, I mean, I don't remember when I slept,

·6· ·so I made myself available all the time.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what time does the day shift

·8· ·start?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That starts at 8:00 a.m.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At 8:00 a.m.· And do you know if

11· ·you would have on the Sunday, while you are

12· ·watching the pieces being lifted out of the hole,

13· ·do you go home at some point from the Sunday to

14· ·when you have to start your day shift on the

15· ·Monday?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I may have, to get a fresh

17· ·uniform.· I mean, to start, with the Monday day

18· ·shift, I am going to go in, start my day shift.

19· ·And I mean, it is my shift, so my main

20· ·responsibility is to cover that shift in the hall,

21· ·and you know, somebody has got to be there.· So I

22· ·would have taken turns with my partner maybe and go

23· ·back and forth to see what we could do.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall if at the time that

25· ·you start your day shift on the Monday, are there

·1· ·still other fire fighters from the surrounding

·2· ·areas still there helping to cover the Fire Hall

·3· ·under the Mutual Aid Agreement?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I remember seeing them all the

·5· ·time, yeah.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, I don't remember the exact

·8· ·moment they arrived, so I know they switched off

·9· ·with different municipalities.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall if -- do you recall

11· ·when the hoisting of materials through the hole,

12· ·when that stopped?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I couldn't give you an exact time,

14· ·no.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But were you there when it

16· ·stopped?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Were you ever -- firstly,

19· ·were you ever told, one, that the hoisting of

20· ·materials through the hole was going to be stopped?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't remember anybody telling

22· ·me that.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, obviously things would

25· ·have to be maybe stopped periodically to assess.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But you were never told a reason

·2· ·why it would be stopped or anything like that?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At that point I don't recall, no.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are you having -- when you

·5· ·are on-site on the Sunday, do you have any

·6· ·discussions with anyone from the TF-3 team?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Other than talking about what they

·8· ·do, that is it.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you know how to

10· ·distinguish between the TF-3 team and the OPP UCRT

11· ·team?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Their uniforms were different.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the TF-3 team, what did their

14· ·uniform look like?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·With the yellowish-orange shirts.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the OPP UCRT team?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Typical black, and I mean, you

18· ·could -- the OPP logo was obviously -- or crest was

19· ·there, but they were a dark more tactical looking

20· ·uniform.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And who did you work with when you

22· ·were at the scene?· Who were you mostly dealing

23· ·with when you were there?· Was it TF-3 or UCRT?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The time that I helped with the

25· ·shoring, it seemed to be a mixture of both.· I sat

·1· ·a lot with the UCRT guys.· It may have been the

·2· ·dogs that, you know, drew me in, but never really

·3· ·spent more time talking to anyone, you know, more

·4· ·than another.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·In terms of the discussions you

·6· ·were having with them in general, what were you

·7· ·talking about?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·About work.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·What we do, what they do, how they

11· ·train the dogs, things like that.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in terms of the tasks that you

13· ·are being given, who is telling you what to do?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Whoever is on our Incident

15· ·Command.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So every task that you were given

17· ·in those days that followed the collapse, you were

18· ·always told what to do by --

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·By either John Thomas or the

20· ·Chief, depending on who was Incident Command for us

21· ·at the time.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So your directions are always

23· ·coming from the Elliot Lake Fire Department?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So on the Monday when you are on

·1· ·shift, at what -- you go back to the mall during

·2· ·the day?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I may have.· Without looking at

·4· ·the SIRs and that, it is -- I know I have been in

·5· ·the station, out of the station, and it is just

·6· ·that stuff is logged on the radio and on the SIR

·7· ·sheets as well.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· When you were still on-site

·9· ·on the Sunday and they were cutting the beam and

10· ·hoisting out the car, did you see them use the

11· ·LifeLocator?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I saw it in use kind of through

13· ·the front doors, but I don't remember what day it

14· ·was.· Like I say, I had a heck of a time trying to

15· ·remember doing -- when I did that beam removal with

16· ·that crew.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, but you saw them use the

18· ·LifeLocator?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I did.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And you were at the

21· ·doors by the Foodland?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe so.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Were you through the doors or were

24· ·you still outside?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think outside looking in.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you were on the outside

·2· ·perimeter of the mall looking through the two sets

·3· ·of doors?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, there was a time and when I

·5· ·accompanied with the HUSAR, and I don't remember

·6· ·names, there is a lot of them, that we did actually

·7· ·go back to the spot where we were doing the hose

·8· ·work, and that is where I got to see the

·9· ·LifeLocator in use for a couple of minutes from the

10· ·basket.· I think they just wanted to kind of share

11· ·that knowledge or something.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so at some point you are

13· ·standing on the second floor again?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you are watching them use the

16· ·LifeLocator?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Approximately how far would you

19· ·have been from the operator who was operating the

20· ·LifeLocator?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Probably roughly the same distance

22· ·I was when I was doing the hose, the 15 feet or so.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when the LifeLocator was being

24· ·used while you were watching, can you just explain

25· ·to us how it was being used?· What did you see?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It looked like he lowered some

·2· ·kind of a sensor down and then had a screen of

·3· ·sorts that he would read.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the operator of the

·5· ·LifeLocator, where was he?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·In the yellow basket.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so he is in the basket

·8· ·suspended by the crane?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And when he lowers the

11· ·LifeLocator, is the basket moving at all?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·There was some movement, but I

13· ·believe they were using tag lines to try and keep

14· ·that down.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And does he move to a different

16· ·location at any point?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think I remember hearing him

18· ·say, you know, can you nudge me this way or move me

19· ·a little bit that way.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when the basket is in motion

21· ·to change his position, is he operating the

22· ·LifeLocator at that point?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I think -- I don't know

24· ·how -- the specifics on how they use it, so I would

25· ·assume that he would want it to be as steady as

·1· ·possible.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so but when you are watching

·3· ·him, because you indicated he lowered some sort of

·4· ·sensor?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do I take it that to mean this

·7· ·sensor is connected to the monitor that he is

·8· ·holding?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so basically a long cord?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And he lowers something down into

13· ·the pile?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And does he keep that sensor

16· ·hanging down when he asks them to move him to a

17· ·different position, or does he pull it back up?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think he would pull it up enough

19· ·that he wouldn't hit anything on the bottom.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, all right.· And so you

21· ·watched that, and did anyone explain to you how the

22· ·LifeLocator worked, what its purpose was?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, its purpose, I think it was

24· ·to find a sign of breathing, but in the simplest

25· ·terms, it was explained to me like a fish finder.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and can you -- for those of

·2· ·us who don't fish.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, you have the sensor

·4· ·portion on the bottom of your boat and you have the

·5· ·small screen in your boat and you see when the fish

·6· ·come by hopefully, and it measures to the bottom of

·7· ·the lake you are fishing in.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so was the LifeLocator

·9· ·giving a distance of where --

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't -- I don't know that much.

11· ·That was just the simplest explanation for me.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·In addition to the LifeLocator

13· ·being used, you indicated that there were dogs

14· ·on-site?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you see them using the dogs at

17· ·any point?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I did see them go in and out with

19· ·dogs.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you saw them go in and

21· ·out with dogs, where were you?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Probably in the same area, that

23· ·parking lot area, that is where we were kind of

24· ·staged to be safe.· And further on the tents were

25· ·moved down here, but we were still allowed to kind

·1· ·of go closer to look, but if the dogs went in with

·2· ·the doors still there, that was all you saw was the

·3· ·dogs go past the door.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So could you see the dogs when

·5· ·they were inside --

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not while the doors were still up.

·7· ·It wasn't until more of the front of the building

·8· ·was removed where you could see that.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you saw the dogs go in,

10· ·do you know which dog you saw go in?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I saw both.· It was one team one

12· ·time, and another team another time.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you saw both the TF-3 dog and

14· ·the UCRT dog go in?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when the TF-3 dog went in, did

17· ·anyone tell you or did you find out at any point

18· ·the results from the dog going in?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I do recall in conversation

20· ·hearing that a dog came up with something.· One dog

21· ·searched for life, while the other one was I

22· ·think -- I believe it was a cadaver dog.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And I still can't honestly tell

25· ·you whose was whose.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the dog that was -- that

·2· ·searched for life, did you have any discussions

·3· ·with that handler in terms of what that dog --

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not a one-to-one.· It was more of,

·5· ·you know, as a group saying that I think the dog

·6· ·may have had a hit.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you were told that at one point

·8· ·that the live search dog had a hit?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·If that was the HUSAR dog, then --

10· ·I'm not -- like I say, I can't remember whose dog

11· ·did what.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But I'm talking about --

13· ·forgetting who owned which dog.

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·The live search dog that you saw

16· ·go in, is that the one that you were told had a

17· ·hit?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't remember.· Like I say, I

19· ·don't remember which dog, whether the HUSAR dog did

20· ·that or the UCRT dog did that, but when I heard the

21· ·hit comment, I -- to me that was a viable hit.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But did anyone say to you the dog

23· ·has indicated on a live person?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Through discussion.· There wasn't

25· ·a personal -- like as a group.· It wasn't that

·1· ·somebody came right to me and said that.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did they explain to you what

·3· ·the dog does when it locates on a live person?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not in any detail.· I mean, I kind

·5· ·of had an understanding just from seeing stuff like

·6· ·that on TV, you know, whether a dog sits or barks

·7· ·or -- I don't remember which, what those dogs were

·8· ·trained to do in that instance.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you don't know in terms of the

10· ·dogs that went in what their indicators were?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I don't remember.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You indicated that the day shift

13· ·starts at 8:00.· What time does it end?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It ends at 6:00.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At 6:00.· And on the Monday, where

16· ·were you when the announcement is made that the

17· ·rescue is over?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I remember hearing it, and I think

19· ·I was still on scene.· I may have been on scene for

20· ·that.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And who tells you?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think it was John Thomas.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Is this before or

24· ·after the press conference, do you know?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know.· I didn't keep in

·1· ·tune with the press conferences or the media. I

·2· ·didn't have access to that when you are on scene.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what are you told?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·In simplest terms, we are done. I

·5· ·mean, that is -- I remember John telling me that.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did Captain Thomas tell you

·7· ·whether or not there was a new plan on how to go

·8· ·forward from this point?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At that moment, I don't -- I don't

10· ·remember hearing of a plan, no.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Were you present for any

12· ·discussions between Chief Officer and Bill Neadles

13· ·regarding the rescue being done and next steps?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Were you present for any

16· ·discussions between Chief Officer and Bill Neadles?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you have any discussions with

19· ·Bill Neadles?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Other than the simple

21· ·conversations, how are you doing.· And I mean,

22· ·nothing tactical in that sense with Bill, no.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you didn't have any tactical

24· ·discussions with him?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you at any point step in as

·2· ·Incident Command?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And after you have this

·5· ·conversation with Captain Thomas that it is over,

·6· ·what do you see going on on-site at this point?· Do

·7· ·you stay on scene when you are told this?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I stayed on scene for a bit

·9· ·afterwards.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I didn't really see anything

12· ·different.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you see anyone packing up?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I didn't actually see that, no.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, your shift was technically

16· ·supposed to end at --

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·6:00.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- at 6:00.· Do you go home at

19· ·6:00?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Like I say, I was home

21· ·periodically to get a fresh shirt or other items.

22· ·There was another night where I tried to get some

23· ·sleep at home.· Unless I'm looking at those SIR

24· ·Reports, I don't remember.· It is all one day, you

25· ·know.· It is --

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So to the best of your

·2· ·recollection, you are not really following your

·3· ·shifts?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I'm making myself available as

·5· ·much as I possibly can.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·After the announcement is made

·7· ·that the rescue is done, does the Elliot Lake Fire

·8· ·Department have a meeting?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know that I remember a

10· ·formal meeting.· I remember going back to the

11· ·station and watching some news.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Trying to get caught up on that

14· ·end.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what were you hearing on the

16· ·news?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think I was hearing that it was

18· ·done in that portion.· And there was a lot of us in

19· ·the kitchen, so it was kind of hard to hear what

20· ·was going on, but the understanding was that was

21· ·done and I think that is when the big crowd started

22· ·to boil downtown.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is there any discussion within the

24· ·Elliot Lake Fire Department on what you are going

25· ·to do next?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I know for one it was still going

·2· ·to remain our scene.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was always going to be our

·5· ·scene, and I mean, I wasn't really part and parcel

·6· ·to what the next set of plans were to be.· I was

·7· ·there to participate when they came to fruition.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What did you -- when you heard

·9· ·that it was done, what did you understand that

10· ·meant?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Unfortunately, I got the gist of

12· ·it right away.· It felt like it was done.· It was a

13· ·kick in the gut.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did anyone say to you who would

15· ·continue -- if anyone would continue to assist the

16· ·Elliot Lake Fire Department at this point?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not really.· It was -- I was just

18· ·kind of standing there in awe and wondering what --

19· ·waiting, you know.· I mean, if it would have come

20· ·down to if the operation stops and it goes back to

21· ·the owner, then it no longer would have been

22· ·considered a rescue, but I know I don't think any

23· ·of us were giving up hope.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Does anyone tell you that it has

25· ·gone from a rescue to a recovery?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't remember that term being

·2· ·used.· To us it was always keep trying.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Are you told at any point that

·4· ·there is a new plan?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Eventually, it came around.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you remember who would have

·7· ·told you about this?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think it was either the Chief or

·9· ·John.· We kind of gathered and were informed of

10· ·that.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what are you told?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think that is when we found out

13· ·about the Priestly crane coming in and the Premier

14· ·saying that everything is back on and that was just

15· ·waiting for that item to get here and see what they

16· ·could do to help.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in terms of the Priestly

18· ·crane, are you told what they are going to do, what

19· ·their approach is going to be?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Roughly, there was a large piece

21· ·of equipment that had the cutting shears on the end

22· ·and it was supposed to be the biggest of its type

23· ·and roughly try and work like we would with a car

24· ·accident and remove material around the person and

25· ·go that route.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So are you told that they are

·2· ·going to work from the outside in?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So they are going to dismantle

·5· ·around the collapse area?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And prior to being told that

·8· ·Priestly is coming in, had you ever heard of

·9· ·Priestly Demolition before?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in terms of the equipment that

12· ·they had, had you ever heard of this type of

13· ·equipment before?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, nothing that big.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And were you aware of any other

16· ·companies in the areas surrounding Elliot Lake

17· ·having anything similar?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So on the Tuesday, are you at the

20· ·scene on the Tuesday?· So this is after the

21· ·announcement is initially made, because I know that

22· ·timing is difficult for you, so the Tuesday is

23· ·after the announcement is initially made that it is

24· ·done and then the new plan is put into place and

25· ·before Priestly arrives; are you on-site at that

·1· ·time?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·During the day?

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·During the day.

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Like I said, I have -- I would try

·5· ·and switch off with my partner to give him an

·6· ·opportunity to be there and myself an opportunity

·7· ·to be there.· I'm pretty sure I was there when the

·8· ·crane came in.· I wanted to see that.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·But it is hard to say when I was

11· ·there or not.· I mean --

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right, so you saw the Priestly

13· ·crane arrive?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And after the Priestly crane

16· ·arrives and they start getting set up, are you

17· ·still there?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you stay overnight on the

20· ·Tuesday into the Wednesday, or do you go home at

21· ·that point?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Through the operation with that

23· ·crane?

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you stayed there while

·2· ·the Priestly crane is being used?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And can you just explain to us

·5· ·what you were seeing in terms of what the Priestly

·6· ·crane was doing?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, basically he came into the

·8· ·front doors here and began dismantling this area to

·9· ·work through to that.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so what you are indicating

11· ·is he came in at the point of the doors near the

12· ·Foodland?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.· And they built up a

14· ·gravel bed for him so that he would be in a better

15· ·position, because that is sloped, and then just

16· ·started working at the catwalks and clearing those

17· ·out because they would be in the way and then

18· ·started working throughout I guess you could call

19· ·it the penthouse.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so is he ripping it away?· Is

21· ·that what he is doing?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Cutting pieces and moving them out

23· ·of the way.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in terms of the gravel bed,

25· ·did you assist in preparing that?· Were you

·1· ·involved in any of that?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, no.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so when you are watching this

·4· ·operation, where are you?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Probably back.· I think we kind of

·6· ·moved things back a little to this area, just to

·7· ·keep out of the way.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And while these operations --

·9· ·while this operation is ongoing, other than

10· ·watching, are you doing any other tasks as well?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I remember helping out HUSAR with

12· ·lighting.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·As it got darker, they added a lot

15· ·of portable lighting and generators, so to give

16· ·them a hand with that, just to position

17· ·lightning -- or not lightning -- lighting better,

18· ·because as the large crane would move and take

19· ·things off, a smaller piece of equipment would move

20· ·and sort things to very different areas.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do the dogs go back in at any

22· ·point after Priestly is there?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I remember seeing dogs going back

24· ·in as the opening became bigger, and you could

25· ·obviously see right into the collapse area.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so could you see the dogs

·2· ·searching?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, you could see them with

·4· ·their handler.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And were they -- do you recall if

·6· ·it was TF-3 or UCRT that was in there?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It could have been both.· I mean,

·8· ·not at the same time, obviously, but we were much

·9· ·further back, so it is not as easy to see them. I

10· ·mean, you know there is a person and a dog there,

11· ·but --

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you couldn't see what the

13· ·dog was doing?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Doing his job, crawling and

15· ·looking, I guess.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who was the first

17· ·victim that was reached when Priestly was there, do

18· ·you recall?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The first victim taken out was

20· ·Doloris.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It was Doloris, okay.· And then I

22· ·understand that you weren't -- you didn't assist in

23· ·taking out Doloris?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But you did assist in taking out

·1· ·Lucie?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when they get to Lucie, can

·4· ·you tell us where Lucie was located, where she was

·5· ·found in comparison to where you identified on the

·6· ·photograph?· And, Ms. Kuka, if we could pull that

·7· ·exhibit back up, and I'm sorry, I don't know that I

·8· ·have kept the number.· It was from yesterday.

·9· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· Exhibit No. 8108.

10· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So this is the photo that you

12· ·identified yesterday in terms of where you were

13· ·when you were communicating with -- when you were

14· ·doing your communications on the first day.· Can

15· ·you tell me in comparison to where you drew this

16· ·box where you were -- where she was ultimately

17· ·found?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It looks totally different with

19· ·everything out of there.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·No, I appreciate that, and maybe

21· ·if you can use the -- if you see drywall, the

22· ·portion of the wall that has drywall and there is a

23· ·picture and then it --

24· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· Hold on.

25· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· All right, so this is the

·1· ·right one?

·2· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· Yes, Exhibit No. 8108.

·3· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right, thank you.· So using

·5· ·Exhibit No. 8108, can you -- and maybe using the --

·6· ·we see there is a partially drywalled wall and then

·7· ·we see a brick wall?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Using that as your reference

10· ·points, perhaps, do you know approximately where

11· ·Lucie was found ultimately?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Like I say, it looks totally

13· ·different after everything is taken out.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Uhm-hmm.

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·But do you want me to draw --

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah, Ms. Kuka, if we could give

17· ·him a different colour?

18· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· Yeah, it is in blue.

19· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you.

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And I am guessing, because when I

22· ·went in to retrieve her, it is tunnel vision, but

23· ·more I guess into that general direction, like

24· ·closer to the wall.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so she was not as close to

·1· ·the wall as Doloris?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't think so.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean --

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But she was still closer to the

·6· ·wall?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Like I say, it is a totally

·8· ·different room when you are in there after and you

·9· ·are focussed -- you are really not focussed on --

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·On your location?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·-- on the walls anymore.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, all right.· Can we actually

13· ·make this another exhibit, because I want to keep

14· ·the red square along with the blue square, so --

15· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· So that will be 8111.

16· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· So Exhibit No. 8111,

17· ·which is the identification by Captain Connors of

18· ·the approximate location of where Lucie was

19· ·ultimately found.

20· · · · · · · ·EXHIBIT NO. 8111:· Identification by

21· · · · · · · ·Captain Connors of the approximate

22· · · · · · · ·location of where Lucie Aylwin was

23· · · · · · · ·found.

24· · · · · · · ·BY MS. AUTHIER:

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·In terms of -- and I just want to

·1· ·move into sort of generally how things took place

·2· ·over the four-day period and sort of what your

·3· ·knowledge and understanding was.

·4· · · · · · · ·In terms of your -- you have taken the

·5· ·IMS courses, as we saw yesterday, and I just want

·6· ·to get a proper understanding of what you

·7· ·understand to be the role and the function of the

·8· ·Incident Commander in an event such as this?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That individual is the leader.

10· ·They are the ones -- they are the person with the

11· ·knowledge of what is happening and develop the

12· ·tasks for the remainder of us to carry on with and,

13· ·you know, to ensure that steps are taken to, you

14· ·know, save people, save property, and number one,

15· ·obviously, make sure that we are working safe in

16· ·order for us to do that, call in additional help as

17· ·needed.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·In terms of the collapse, who was

19· ·the Incident Commander from your perspective?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The Chief.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·The Chief?· And once UCRT and TF-3

22· ·arrived, who was the Incident Commander?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Still Chief Officer.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·During the collapse, did you hear

25· ·anyone saying that the MOL had shut down the

·1· ·rescue?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I heard that comment being made,

·3· ·yes.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And who told you that?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I probably received that from

·6· ·whoever was Incident Commanding at that time.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that switched off between

·8· ·Chief Officer and John Thomas?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Exactly.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you have any direct -- did you

11· ·have any discussions with MOL representatives?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Other than when we were, you know,

13· ·everybody gathered around, just the introductions.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But you never had conversations

15· ·with them in terms of the operation itself?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you see any correspondence or

18· ·did you receive any communications from

19· ·representatives of the Ministry of Labour regarding

20· ·the operation?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Based on your knowledge and

23· ·experience, when it is a rescue, does the Ministry

24· ·of Labour have the power to stop it?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I was -- to be honest, I was gray

·1· ·in that area.· And I always thought in our smaller

·2· ·situations, like a house fire, that was always our

·3· ·scene.· In something like this, I -- it didn't

·4· ·shock -- how to say it?· It didn't shock me. I

·5· ·mean, what we do is dangerous.· It is what we

·6· ·signed up for.· In the sense where the MOL stood in

·7· ·and said that, I would assume that that person was

·8· ·either an engineer or someone smart enough to

·9· ·determine that, you know, in more of an assistance

10· ·mode saying, look, this is unsafe and you shouldn't

11· ·do this.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·On the first night when it is just

13· ·the Elliot Lake Fire Department that is in the

14· ·collapse zone, do you see anyone from the Ministry

15· ·of Labour there?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I saw a lot of people.· I don't

17· ·remember who was who.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I remember our uniforms and police

20· ·and medics.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall seeing anyone who

22· ·wasn't necessarily in a uniform?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, we had -- I mean, we had

24· ·municipal staff there as well, some Public Works

25· ·people.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But did anyone come up to you that

·2· ·first night and say I'm so and so from the Ministry

·3· ·of Labour?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The first night, like the first

·5· ·day?

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·The first day?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't remember an introduction

·8· ·as such, no.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Were you told by Chief Officer or

10· ·Captain Thomas that someone from the MOL was there

11· ·that first day?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't remember somebody telling

13· ·me that.· It may have been.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·How would you describe the

15· ·relationship between UCRT and the Elliot Lake Fire

16· ·Department during the operation?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I -- I thought we got along great.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What about the communications

19· ·between Chief Officer and the UCRT members?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I really didn't see that, so I

21· ·mean, I can't comment on that.· I was a task

22· ·person, just as the UCRT members that I talked to

23· ·were.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And what about the

25· ·relationship between TF-3 and the Elliot Lake Fire

·1· ·Department?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I would say the same.· I mean, we

·3· ·all talked to each other.· We all -- we are all in

·4· ·this for the same reason.· I never heard anything,

·5· ·you know, bad.· We got along great.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you see anything during

·7· ·the rescue operation that you thought was contrary

·8· ·to your own training or that was inappropriate in

·9· ·any way?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you feel that there were any

12· ·miscommunications between either UCRT and the

13· ·Elliot Lake Fire Department or TF-3 and the Elliot

14· ·Lake Fire Department?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·How do you feel the -- in terms of

17· ·the information that was being delivered to the

18· ·public, what was your opinion?· Was that done well?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·As far as I could tell, I mean,

20· ·being in that area, you don't have the tools to see

21· ·what is going out to the public, you know, how it

22· ·was channelled.· As far as I could tell, what the

23· ·media does with what they hear, that is -- you know

24· ·how that works.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you feel that adequate

·1· ·information was being given to the public?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I couldn't make a determination on

·3· ·that because what gets sent to the media sometimes

·4· ·gets changed.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you have any discussions with

·6· ·outside organizations that came to offer help

·7· ·during the operation?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No discussions, no.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You didn't have any discussions

10· ·with Mine Rescue?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you meet an individual named

13· ·John Green?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I did meet him.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and can you just explain to

16· ·us how that exchange took place?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.· John Thomas and I were

18· ·leaving in a truck.· I think we were leading some

19· ·of the HUSAR members either to eat or help them

20· ·prep one of the apartments they were staying in,

21· ·and we were coming -- if I may stand up again?

22· ·There is an exit just off the photo here to Ontario

23· ·Avenue.· We were leaving that way.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So just for the record, you are

25· ·pointing to the exit that is at the Zellers end of

·1· ·the mall?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That takes you on to Ontario?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Takes you back, yes, on to

·5· ·Ontario.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·We were leaving that in a large

·8· ·white truck, it looked like a converted emergency

·9· ·vehicle with probably a trailer attached to it of

10· ·equal length was attempting to pull in there.· And

11· ·I think John was driving, and we stopped to talk to

12· ·him, you know, because I mean, everything -- you

13· ·want everything coming in through one point at the

14· ·best, and we wanted to find out who he was.

15· · · · · · · ·And he introduced himself as John

16· ·Green, and I can't remember the exact name of his

17· ·company, and asked, Where do you need me?· And

18· ·Captain Thomas kind of wanted more information from

19· ·him as to who you were and suggested that he park

20· ·off-site until we can clarify who you are and what

21· ·we need.

22· · · · · · · ·And that was the extent of our

23· ·conversation with him, and I think John may have

24· ·radioed or called somebody to give him a heads-up

25· ·that this individual is looking to speak to

·1· ·somebody.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did John Green provide you with

·3· ·any credentials of any kind?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not to me, no.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall if he provided any

·6· ·to John Thomas?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·He may have handed him a business

·8· ·card.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But beyond a business card, did he

10· ·provide him with any other credentials as to who he

11· ·was?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Had you ever heard of him prior to

14· ·meeting him that day?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you have any discussions

17· ·with anyone else within the UCRT or TF-3 teams as

18· ·to whether or not they knew who John Green was?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Just later on asking have you ever

20· ·heard of this outfit, and I don't think for the

21· ·most part the people I talked to hadn't.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you didn't come across anyone

23· ·who had heard of him before?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·All right, those are all of my

·1· ·questions.· Your counsel will likely have

·2· ·questions, and my friends will probably have

·3· ·questions as well.· Thank you very much for coming

·4· ·in.

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Thank you.

·6· · · · · · · ·MR. CASSAN:· I have no questions

·7· ·in-chief, Mr. Commissioner.

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Cross-examination?

·9· · · · · · · ·Ms. Carr.

10· · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CARR:

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Mr. Commissioner.

12· · · · · · · ·Captain Connors, my name is Alex Carr

13· ·and I am one of the lawyers for ELMAC.· I only have

14· ·a few questions for you this morning.

15· · · · · · · ·I understood your evidence to be that

16· ·when you first arrived at the mall, you understood

17· ·pretty quickly that the Incident Commander was

18· ·Chief Officer?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you understood that throughout

21· ·the emergency response.· Were you aware of Chief

22· ·Officer having meetings with people from HUSAR and

23· ·people from UCRT in which he was providing them

24· ·with directions?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I was aware of meetings, yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you.· And did you

·2· ·actually witness any instructions being given by

·3· ·Chief Officer to either HUSAR or UCRT?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.· Those meetings would be held

·5· ·privately or --

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you.· So when you say

·7· ·you were aware, how did you become aware?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, you know, the Chief would

·9· ·maybe hand off his command to John Thomas or just

10· ·say I have got a meeting now.· And we all know

11· ·where we were.· That is the great thing with

12· ·Incident Command.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you.· I think you said

14· ·yesterday that by the time you got to the collapse

15· ·area on June 23rd, you were -- there were already

16· ·fire fighters that were on top of the pile of

17· ·debris?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you remember how many there

20· ·were when you arrived?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I can't give you an exact number,

22· ·no.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Was it under five?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, half a dozen would be a safe

25· ·bet.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Half a dozen.· And subsequently,

·2· ·did you join them on the pile of debris?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at what point did you become

·5· ·aware that Captain Thomas was communicating with

·6· ·someone or felt that he was communicating with

·7· ·someone?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know the exact time. I

·9· ·would --

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you find out before you got to

11· ·the collapse site?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.· No.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you remember whether you

14· ·were already on the pile when you found out?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I would have been on the pile, and

16· ·I would have been close to John or Captain Thomas.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And was there ever any concern

18· ·about the weight of the fire fighters on the pile

19· ·and whether that would make the situation any

20· ·worse?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think we always looked at stuff

22· ·like that.· I mean, if something moved, you know,

23· ·you would reduce the weight on it obviously.· We

24· ·were always keeping an eye out for things like

25· ·that.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But I guess the only way to really

·2· ·figure out what was happening was to get on top of

·3· ·the pile?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, if you could move something

·5· ·or if you stood on something and it moved, you

·6· ·would take note of that and I wouldn't add more

·7· ·people to it.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you, those are my

·9· ·questions.

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Thank you.

11· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Mr. Saunders.

12· · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SAUNDERS:

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning.· My name is John

14· ·Saunders.· I'm here on behalf of the Ontario Fire

15· ·Chiefs Association.· I just wanted to talk about

16· ·one area of your testimony with regard to the sewer

17· ·camera.

18· · · · · · · ·Just so I understand the dynamics of

19· ·that, the sewer camera is a camera with a light on

20· ·it that is at the end of a hose, if I can put it

21· ·that way?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then that is attached back to

24· ·a monitor which is a screen so you can actually see

25· ·what is going on in the camera?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when that was being utilized,

·3· ·you were in the truck parked outside of the mall?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And how far -- where was that

·6· ·truck located?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·You can see it in this photograph.

·8· ·It is that yellow cube van.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so how far away from the

10· ·actual scene would that have been?· How far from

11· ·the pile would that have been, approximately?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Probably about 10 feet, 10, 15

13· ·feet to the doors and then halfway into the pile,

14· ·and I am trying to remember the size of that hole,

15· ·maybe 40 feet.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And were you inside the truck or

17· ·outside the truck?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Sitting on the back tail board, so

19· ·the large moving van style door, so I was sitting

20· ·up in it.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you were sitting with your

22· ·feet --

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right on the edge.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Right on the edge with your feet

25· ·hanging off the tailgate --

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- or the bumper?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I take it you had the monitor

·5· ·in your hand or the monitor was placed beside you?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was on a stand of sorts.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so the stand was sitting in

·8· ·the back of the truck or on the ground?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think it was on the ground,

10· ·actually.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And when the helicopter

12· ·came overhead, I take it you saw the helicopter?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And heard it?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·You could hear him coming and --

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And could we, Ms. Kuka, put up

17· ·Exhibit No. 7524 and, in particular, page 3.· These

18· ·were the notes that you made a few days after the

19· ·incident, and I just wanted to take you to a

20· ·comment that you made and ask you to enlarge on it.

21· ·This is page 3 of your notes, and if we start at

22· ·the fourth line, it says:

23· · · · · · · · · "I then suggested to get the sewer

24· · · · · · · ·camera from Public Works to assist

25· · · · · · · ·in search.· I viewed the travels of

·1· · · · · · · ·the camera from a screen on the

·2· · · · · · · ·truck while Vance and Thomas probed

·3· · · · · · · ·with the camera.· I don't recall how

·4· · · · · · · ·long we did this, but unfortunately

·5· · · · · · · ·found nothing.· At this time the OPP

·6· · · · · · · ·chopper was hovering overhead,

·7· · · · · · · ·causing vibrations in the truck and

·8· · · · · · · ·in the collapse zone."

·9· · · · · · · ·What do you mean by "causing vibrations

10· ·in the truck"?· You hadn't commented on that

11· ·before.

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, the truck is on the

13· ·suspension and it is not chocked, and so there is

14· ·going to be some movement.· So sitting there, you

15· ·could feel it.· If you have ever heard a car go by

16· ·with the heavy bass and you feel the thump from

17· ·that, that is what you felt.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so the chopper was always in

19· ·the air --

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- in terms of that?· So while it

22· ·was hovering over the mall, you could feel

23· ·vibrations in the truck in terms of that?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And is it possible for you to

·1· ·quantify what that vibration was?· Was it small,

·2· ·little, medium, in terms of that?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It is obviously enough that you

·5· ·made note of it in your notes?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So I take it it was a relatively

·8· ·significant vibration that you felt?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, like I knew it wasn't the

10· ·down-wash that we were feeling.· It was just from

11· ·the noise of the engine in the chopper.· And I

12· ·mean, it was -- I wouldn't compare it to a

13· ·washboard road.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Less than that, but noticeable

16· ·enough.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and was that a concern to

18· ·your?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was because I -- having been in

20· ·the pile, I have seen what was hanging over our

21· ·heads, and things, small blocks and that slipped

22· ·off on their own.· So any movement or anything that

23· ·could cause movement would be -- definitely be a

24· ·concern to us.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you had mentioned that it

·1· ·wasn't the actual down-wash you said that you

·2· ·thought was causing it.· What was it that was

·3· ·causing the vibration?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Just the vibration created from

·5· ·the engine itself.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that is what was causing

·7· ·everything to shake?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you, those are my

10· ·comments.

11· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

12· · · · · · · ·Mr. Thorne.

13· · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. THORNE:

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Darren.

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Good morning.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I've just got a few questions, and

17· ·they mostly centre on the Incident Command system

18· ·and the relationship between the groups of the

19· ·emergency responders.

20· · · · · · · ·In addition to the assigned tasks on a

21· ·pile, a crew you mentioned in your testimony was

22· ·assigned getting a hose line and taking it through

23· ·the mall?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you recall who gave you that

·1· ·order?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Whoever was Incident Command at

·3· ·the time.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the Incident Commander would

·5· ·have given you that order?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you.· And in your

·8· ·testimony, you also stated that you worked well

·9· ·with TF-3, the HUSAR team?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you also stated you worked

12· ·well with the UCRT members as well?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I think in your testimony you

15· ·also mentioned that there was a time during a break

16· ·where you were all together and having I guess

17· ·maybe small talk or just getting to know each other

18· ·a little bit better, and that went on and it seemed

19· ·to go over very well?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Would the same thing have occurred

22· ·when you were actually on the pile performing a

23· ·task whereby you were all there together and would

24· ·you say that you all worked well together?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·We were never -- I was never on

·1· ·the pile together with those individuals.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·They were -- were those two groups

·3· ·ever together on the pile?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe they may have been.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, when the doors are still

·7· ·in place, we are not able to see, you know, what

·8· ·you would if you were in there, but like I think I

·9· ·mentioned that I was helping with the cribbing or

10· ·the bracing.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah, and you did that with

12· ·whatever group that you were --

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·There was a mixture of all three

14· ·of us there.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And there were times when

16· ·you might just be working with UCRT guys helping

17· ·them with their cribbing?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then times when you would just

20· ·be helping just the HUSAR guys doing their

21· ·cribbing?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Exactly.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And everything seemed to be going

24· ·well between the groups that you were there with?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, yeah, sure.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Like you, I'm a fire fighter, and

·2· ·we find ourselves in emergency scenes, large ones,

·3· ·not maybe this large, but where there is going to

·4· ·be the police, fire, and EMS and auto extrication

·5· ·perhaps, where somebody has to be in charge?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is that the normal course of

·8· ·business that you have witnessed when you have been

·9· ·at those kind of multiple scenes?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You also mentioned -- and during

12· ·those kinds of scenes when you are doing those

13· ·things, you are a fire fighter and we operate under

14· ·an Incident Command system where there is a chain

15· ·of command and you are the guy who is doing the

16· ·work at the front line of whatever operation it

17· ·might be, and so is it fair to say you are going

18· ·about your business, that is your task and you want

19· ·to get it done?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that task at those scenes,

22· ·whoever the Incident Commander may be, you are just

23· ·following orders?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Trying to get your job done?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, that is my questions, thank

·3· ·you.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

·5· · · · · · · ·Mr. Myles.

·6· · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MYLES:

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Captain Connors.

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Good morning.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·We know each other.· You know I'm

10· ·not a lawyer and I represent the Seniors Action

11· ·Group of Elliot Lake.

12· · · · · · · ·Was there ever a formal plan explained

13· ·to you prior to HUSAR arriving?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Prior?· How do you mean?

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you have a meeting and have a

16· ·plan of how you were going to perform the rescue?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·When I left on the Sunday -- or

18· ·sorry, the Saturday evening, I knew that that was

19· ·activated.· I don't -- I didn't have access to a

20· ·formal plan myself.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· And on the Saturday

22· ·you were advised there was a formal rescue plan.

23· ·Do you know whose plan that was?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·On the Saturday while we were

25· ·working?

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That day the Chief was Incident

·3· ·Command, and that was his plan on what we were

·4· ·doing.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· Did anyone from EMS

·6· ·talk to you about Critical Incident Stress

·7· ·Management or how you were holding up during the

·8· ·incident?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, a friend of mine was a

10· ·paramedic.· He asked how we were doing.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·After HUSAR arrived, what role did

12· ·the Elliot Lake Fire Department play?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, it was still our scene, and

14· ·as for fire fighters like myself, we made ourselves

15· ·available through the Chief as to where we could

16· ·help out.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· Did HUSAR have an IC,

18· ·or who did they report to?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·They had their own individual to

20· ·report to, yes.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· And on the scene, how

22· ·many ICs were there, such as did the OPP have an

23· ·IC?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Each group had their own person in

25· ·command of their group.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So there would be about three or

·2· ·four ICs on the --

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I would guess, a rough

·4· ·guess.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you, those are my questions.

·6· ·And by the way, you did a great job.· Thank you.

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Thanks.

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· We'll break,

·9· ·Mr. Oliver, at this time perhaps, and start with

10· ·your cross after our 20 minutes have been taken.

11· · · · · · · ·-- RECESSED AT 10:30 A.M.

12· · · · · · · ·-- RESUMED AT 10:50 A.M.

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Mr. Oliver.

14· · · · · · · ·CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. OLIVER:

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· My name is Richard

16· ·Oliver.· I'm the lawyer from HUSAR.· We met briefly

17· ·the other day.

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Hello.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I just have a couple of questions.

20· ·When Chuck Myles was asking you questions, he was

21· ·using the term "Incident Commander" and talking

22· ·about numerous Incident Commanders, and I just want

23· ·to touch on that briefly.· Was it your

24· ·understanding that Chief Officer would have the

25· ·final say on all decisions?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, he was the overall Incident

·2· ·Command.· I mean, each unit would have their own

·3· ·boss or their head of their group.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So I guess the term "Incident

·5· ·Commander" for the bosses of the group is not

·6· ·technically the correct term; there would be more

·7· ·of a Task Force Commander or a --

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·There would have been -- I think

·9· ·it was loosely used there, yeah.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Right, so you weren't suggesting

11· ·that there were essentially five groups making

12· ·joint decisions?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, there was one Incident

14· ·Commander.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you were on-site, was

16· ·there ever any time you felt you did not have

17· ·enough information to do the tasks you were

18· ·assigned?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I know when the people were

21· ·pulled from the pile, when the rescuers were pulled

22· ·from the pile on the Monday, you referred to that

23· ·as a kick in the gut, but did you understand the

24· ·decision?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, not right away, but I mean,

·1· ·it is part of knowing the job.· There is decisions

·2· ·that can and will be made.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what was your understanding of

·4· ·why the decision was made in this case?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The safety of the rescuers.· If

·6· ·one of us is injured or killed in the pile, it just

·7· ·changes how everything goes.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, thank you.· Those are my

·9· ·questions.

10· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

11· · · · · · · ·Mr. Kloeze?

12· · · · · · · ·MR. KLOEZE:· I have no questions.

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

14· · · · · · · ·MR. CASSAN:· I have no re-exam, thank

15· ·you.

16· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· Commission Counsel has no

17· ·re-exam either.· Thank you very much.

18· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you very much,

19· ·Captain.

20· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you, sir.

21· · · · · · · ·MS. AUTHIER:· And I believe Mr. Wallace

22· ·is prepared to start with Chief Officer.

23· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.· Are you

24· ·ready to go right now, Mr. Wallace?

25· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· As soon as I get my books

·1· ·out of the briefcase, I am.

·2· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Good morning, Chief.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Good morning, sir.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· We can go ahead and

·5· ·get the Chief sworn in, when you are ready, Madam

·6· ·Registrar.

·7· · · · · · · ·PAUL OFFICER:· SWORN.

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Yes, go ahead,

·9· ·Mr. Wallace.

10· · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. WALLACE:

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you, Commissioner.

12· · · · · · · ·Good morning, Chief Officer.

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Good morning.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·We'll deal initially with a little

15· ·bit of background.· You have been an employee of

16· ·the City of Elliot Lake for how long?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That would be 32 years next month.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you first started, what

19· ·role did you play within the City?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I was a Building Inspector.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you remained in that position

22· ·for some number of years; correct?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, about 20, I believe.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And during that period of time I

25· ·understand, that is, the initial 20 years of your

·1· ·employment as a Building Inspector, you were a

·2· ·member of the Volunteer Fire Service?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you became a volunteer when,

·5· ·what year?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was either '92 or '94.· I think

·7· ·it was -- or maybe '93, '92 or '93.· I'm right at

·8· ·about my 20-year mark, I believe.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, I just didn't hear

10· ·that.

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I'm right at my 20-year mark, I

12· ·believe, about 20 years ago.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And how did you make the

14· ·transition from a volunteer fire fighter to a

15· ·full-time fire fighter?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I did a lot of work.· I was

17· ·a volunteer fire fighter for approximately about 10

18· ·years.· I did a lot of work with the fire

19· ·prevention people in the Fire Department.· The

20· ·former Chief who passed away from cancer was a good

21· ·friend of mine.· So I was heavily involved, and

22· ·when the position came up, I applied and --

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when was that?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That would be '90 -- sorry, about

25· ·2000, I believe.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so did you go from being a

·2· ·volunteer fire fighter to the Chief?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· It was -- I believe they had

·4· ·me as a Deputy or a Deputy Acting Chief because

·5· ·when Mr. Kennedy was sick, I was running both

·6· ·departments at that time.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when you became the Chief, as

·8· ·far as your own training is concerned, are there

·9· ·certain prerequisites that are required by the Fire

10· ·Marshals Office for one to assume the position of

11· ·Chief?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't think it is cast in stone,

13· ·but they like to have somebody with at least 10

14· ·years experience, I believe.· It is an asset to

15· ·have the Company Officer Courses or some other kind

16· ·of designation.

17· · · · · · · ·In my particular case, I had a

18· ·construction background, construction supervision

19· ·actually from Fanshawe College, along with the

20· ·courses that I took and the training that I took

21· ·with the Elliot Lake Fire Department, and then I

22· ·was a little stronger in the Fire Prevention Code

23· ·issues.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you have obviously remained a

25· ·Chief since that point in time?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the Elliot Lake Fire

·3· ·Department is comprised of how many persons?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Now we are nine full-time, plus

·5· ·myself and Ms. Rheaume who has the CEMC duties as

·6· ·well.· She is my assistant and she covers off on

·7· ·the Community Emergency Management Coordinator

·8· ·position as well.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So she wears two hats.· She is

10· ·your assistant, plus she is also the Emergency

11· ·Management Coordinator?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we could have a quick look

14· ·at Exhibit No. 8045.· This is an organizational

15· ·chart that your office was kind enough to prepare

16· ·at our request.· And you indicated in answer to my

17· ·earlier question that there were nine members plus

18· ·yourself.· Who is missing from this organizational

19· ·chart?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·New as of I believe the last six

21· ·months, we have since hired a ninth fire fighter.

22· ·During the event, this was the correct chart.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So in June of 2012, the chart that

24· ·we are looking at right now is an accurate

25· ·portrayal?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is up until the point of the 25

·2· ·volunteers.· 25 volunteers is my maximum as

·3· ·authorized by the by-law.· I believe at the time of

·4· ·the collapse, we were around 20 or 21.· So we are

·5· ·constantly recruiting to get volunteers.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, I want to just take a couple

·7· ·of minutes and have a look at your own training,

·8· ·and that would be at Exhibit No. 8041.· And you

·9· ·have had an opportunity to review this document,

10· ·Chief?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And we are not going to review

13· ·every single entry, but there are a few that I

14· ·think are worthwhile pointing out.· If we could

15· ·look at on the first page, you had a course, and it

16· ·is about almost halfway down, Basic Emergency

17· ·Management, the 1st of October of 2003?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that appears to have been a

20· ·self-study course?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe so.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is that what we have heard would

23· ·be the 100 level course?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, the short form, they call it

25· ·the BEM.· It is basically an introduction to

·1· ·emergency management.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then if we go down towards the

·3· ·bottom, you have two courses back to back, Incident

·4· ·Management Theory which you took on the 21st of

·5· ·September, 2005, and it appears to have been a

·6· ·three-day course?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yes, they run together.· They

·8· ·do all five in one session.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So there is two courses.· There is

10· ·the Incident Management Theory and Incident

11· ·Management Theory and Size-up.· And as between the

12· ·two of them, they last five days?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And those courses are conducted by

15· ·the Fire Marshals Office?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I took those courses at the Fire

17· ·College.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At the Fire College, okay.

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now --

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Part of that, sorry to interrupt,

22· ·the Company Officer Program which I have completed,

23· ·that was a condition of my employment that I had to

24· ·take these courses and complete them.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, can you give us, first of

·1· ·all, beside the course duration, does the "CO"

·2· ·stand for Company Officer?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And 501, what is the significance,

·5· ·if any, of the designation 501?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is the course numbers that they

·7· ·have.· I believe 501 is the, you know, tag to

·8· ·Incident Management Theory.· Probably the 05 may be

·9· ·either the year or the number that they had done

10· ·that year.· That would be my guess on it.· So there

11· ·is some significance to it, but --

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What about the degree of

13· ·advancement?· Does the 501 mean that it is a fifth

14· ·level course, or is it just a number that is picked

15· ·at random?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·They are broken off into various

17· ·compartments and I'll say sectors.· The Company

18· ·Officer Program basically starts with the

19· ·legislation.· The first box covers legislation.

20· ·There is learning methods.· When we get into the

21· ·500s, that is dealing with the 400, 500 series,

22· ·which is basically building construction, the

23· ·Incident Command, size-up, all of those things are

24· ·in the 500s.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And can you give us a thumbnail

·1· ·sketch of what sort of things are covered off in

·2· ·the Incident Management Theory and the second

·3· ·course, Incident Management Theory and Size-up?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, you have to have the

·5· ·pre-requisites.· You have to have 401 before you

·6· ·can go on to 501.

·7· · · · · · · ·401 basically covers off building

·8· ·construction when you are doing a size-up, because

·9· ·it all plays an important role on when you have a

10· ·fire, a big part of being an Incident Commander is

11· ·trying to get ahead of that incident to determine

12· ·whether it is safe to put your people in there or

13· ·not.· So you need to really understand the type of

14· ·constructions.

15· · · · · · · ·You also need to understand fire

16· ·fighter operations so that you can gauge properly

17· ·the amount of time that it takes to do that task.

18· ·If you are assigning tasks, giving unrealistic

19· ·tasks, so they are obviously not going to work.· So

20· ·they have to be able to work as well.

21· · · · · · · ·So part of also on those courses, we

22· ·did pre-planning.· There is also all the theory

23· ·portions of it, which you deal with a lot with

24· ·that.· There is a -- they actually have a little

25· ·mock city, a city down in one of the training rooms

·1· ·where you run different scenarios, so it is the --

·2· ·and of course, everybody gets an opportunity to be

·3· ·an Incident Commander and then you are critiqued.

·4· ·And then later on, and I can't remember exactly the

·5· ·number, then you actually go on the fire ground and

·6· ·we do live training, and the same thing, everybody

·7· ·gets to run a command course and -- or run a

·8· ·command and then you are critiqued as well.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is there a pass/fail to these

10· ·courses?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· Yes, there is marks up until

12· ·the practical one, and the practical one is either

13· ·a pass or a fail on that particular one, I believe.

14· ·I don't think there is a mark.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we could go to the next

16· ·page, Ms. Kuka, that would be 002.· Yes, there is a

17· ·course there that I am curious about.· It is called

18· ·External Agency Roles - Incident Management.· That

19· ·is a course you took in May of 2006.· What is that

20· ·all about?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That would probably deal more with

22· ·Unified Command, and I can't remember if it is the

23· ·505 or 601.· Oh, sorry, I see below "Specialized

24· ·Rescue", and we'll talk a little bit about that one

25· ·too.

·1· · · · · · · ·The External Roles I think more deals

·2· ·with Unified Command, making sure that you are

·3· ·fully aware of the different agencies out there

·4· ·that can assist in different types of incidents.

·5· ·And they touch on essentially a lot of those

·6· ·things, and that could be anything from a HazMat

·7· ·call, so you know, you are able to handle or at

·8· ·least to an awareness level are able to handle and

·9· ·identify those particular instances and what you

10· ·should be doing in those particular calls.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And since you have raised the

12· ·issue, I'll just ask you a question.· What do you

13· ·understand to be meant by the term "Unified

14· ·Command"?· We have an overall Incident Commander;

15· ·correct?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what does Unified Command

18· ·mean?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Unified Command would be on the

20· ·different agencies, so -- and when I say different

21· ·agencies, that would be OPP, EMS, fire.· You can

22· ·run a call together.· Each individual commander has

23· ·their area of operation.· The call is done together

24· ·to coordinate efforts and resources.· But whatever

25· ·the call is, depending on the nature of the call,

·1· ·there is one lead agency that will have overall the

·2· ·final say, if it is required.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So just so I understand, if you

·4· ·have got three different agencies responding to a

·5· ·call, each of the agencies will have a lead on the

·6· ·scene; correct?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, they are actually -- they

·8· ·are the Incident Commander for that particular --

·9· ·well, we'll say the EMS, that he would be the

10· ·Incident Commander for the EMS.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so let's take a concrete

12· ·example.· You have got an Incident Commander for

13· ·the EMS; you have an Incident Commander for the

14· ·fire; and let's say you have an Incident Commander

15· ·for the Police Service.

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·In a Unified Command structure,

18· ·are all three individuals collaborating and making

19· ·a joint decision, or of those three, one of them is

20· ·the final arbiter, the boss?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is actually both.· You are

22· ·working together and coordinating together

23· ·because -- and that could be other external

24· ·agencies as well.· You could have a HazMat expert

25· ·in there as well, but -- or -- well, I won't even

·1· ·bother with that.

·2· · · · · · · ·But yeah, you are working to come up

·3· ·with the plan and the action that you are going to

·4· ·take to mitigate that problem that you are facing,

·5· ·and you know, you pretty much have to do that

·6· ·because I don't know anything about policing, you

·7· ·know, and there are rules that have to be followed

·8· ·that they have.· They have their particular

·9· ·interests that they need to keep moving forward.

10· · · · · · · ·The same with the EMS, depending if it

11· ·is a mass casualty incident, then the EMS would

12· ·more than likely take the lead role in something

13· ·like that, unless it is a rescue component and then

14· ·we would take the lead role.· If it is something

15· ·that potentially the police could be the lead role,

16· ·you are still working together, but that lead

17· ·agency does have -- if you can't get along in the

18· ·sandbox, then the lead agency has the final say.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So it is not truly a rule by

20· ·committee, but rather there is an overall

21· ·commander; is that fair?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, yes, yes.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So at least if I'm getting

24· ·this correctly, you have an overall -- in the

25· ·Unified Command, you have an overall Incident

·1· ·Commander and underneath that Incident Commander

·2· ·would be the leads for the various agencies that

·3· ·are responding; is that correct?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·You could say it that way, but I

·5· ·believe all the information that I have received

·6· ·and training that I have had, it is basically you

·7· ·are equal on the same line, but the lead agency has

·8· ·final say.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And how do you

10· ·define "lead agency"?

11· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Depending on the

12· ·instance.· Like in this particular case, what we

13· ·are here for today, it is rescue.· So it is fire.

14· ·It is not EMS.· It is not police.

15· · · · · · · ·If it was say potentially if it was say

16· ·something to deal with a bomb threat, then the

17· ·police would be the lead agency.· We'll still be at

18· ·the table, still their with our resources.· The

19· ·police officers don't know what we have or the

20· ·Incident Commander would not necessarily know all

21· ·of the equipment that we have, so during the

22· ·discussions, when he is coming up say with his

23· ·Incident Action Plan, then we would offer what

24· ·resources we have to assist.

25· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So the lead agency

·1· ·is dependent on the nature of the situation that

·2· ·you are facing?· It has nothing to do with who is

·3· ·first on scene?

·4· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct.

·5· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right.

·6· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And is it then that the lead

·8· ·agency, their Incident Commander would be the

·9· ·overall Incident Commander?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that, and just so we are clear

12· ·here, that is true in both a single command

13· ·situation and in a Unified Command situation?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, you wanted to say a

16· ·few words about Specialized Rescue Operations.

17· ·Tell us about that, please.

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, just because I probably have

19· ·a better understanding of the training that the OFM

20· ·provides than the two former witnesses, or Darren

21· ·and John that were just up.

22· · · · · · · ·Specialized Rescue, because I heard

23· ·questions on the last day about training that is

24· ·dealing with the incidents like the mall collapse,

25· ·as far as I know, there is no such training.· The

·1· ·Specialized Rescue, it deals with very brief chunks

·2· ·of we'll say dealing with a collapsed structure

·3· ·that you would go through.

·4· · · · · · · ·It also deals with a little bit on

·5· ·train accidents, trench rescue, water rescue.· So

·6· ·these are done.· There is probably I'm going to --

·7· ·and I am going to take strictly a guess, because I

·8· ·haven't taken that course it is five or six years

·9· ·ago, I would doubt if it would have been more than

10· ·an hour or two spent on each subject.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So there is no training that you

12· ·are aware of at least that is offered as far as

13· ·structural collapse is concerned; is that correct?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not to the magnitude that we are

15· ·dealing with here, that's correct.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the structural collapses that

17· ·you would be trained for would be those collapses

18· ·that are consequential upon a fire?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The majority of training is to

20· ·that way.· The Specialized Rescue touches more on a

21· ·collapse for whatever reason.· It could be a bomb

22· ·that has gone off and the building is half, you

23· ·know, demolished by that explosion and you still

24· ·have to get in there.· So it is more of things that

25· ·way, but it is probably more to the awareness

·1· ·level, basically so you don't get yourself into

·2· ·trouble, I think, and go into areas that you really

·3· ·shouldn't be going into.· And I think it is -- that

·4· ·is where it is back to the awareness level.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So awareness in terms of the NFPA

·6· ·standards?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, yes, that's correct.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I didn't -- I just mean that is

·9· ·the reason you chose that word "awareness"?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, right.· I mean, everything

11· ·that you are doing essentially has some standard

12· ·behind it, which is changing again, by the way.

13· ·The Fire College is changing and moving from -- to

14· ·the NFPA standards.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So in terms of the training that

16· ·is available to fire personnel in this province at

17· ·least and to your knowledge, it is restricted to,

18· ·as far as structural collapses is concerned, to the

19· ·awareness level, simply so that you don't get

20· ·yourself into trouble; it is not designed to

21· ·actually deal specifically with a structural

22· ·collapse, is that fair?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, that's correct, and part of

24· ·that training too is to know who to call, which in

25· ·this case is the HUSAR team.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, I see here that Specialized

·2· ·Rescue Operations is a CO course, a Company Officer

·3· ·course?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And does that mean that you have

·6· ·to have a certain rank before you are eligible to

·7· ·take that course?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, and this might be an

·9· ·opportunity for me to explain a little bit on how

10· ·we do our training.· And you will see through my

11· ·training and you did see through the training of

12· ·Darren Connors and John Thomas and you will see

13· ·that through all of my fire fighters that we

14· ·basically have a three-prong approach.

15· · · · · · · ·We do our training on Wednesday nights,

16· ·which you heard about.· Once a year the calendar

17· ·comes out for the Ontario Fire College, and we

18· ·offer -- I offer that training to everybody that

19· ·wants to take courses.· Of course, I get a big

20· ·stack, and then I have got to whittle down to what

21· ·I think they need to be taking and in what order,

22· ·so then in those particular cases, I'll meet with

23· ·the individual fire fighters.· That goes from

24· ·everything say from a Mod A to the Company Officer

25· ·to the fire prevention programs.

·1· · · · · · · ·And our third prong of attack is we'll

·2· ·actually host courses here.· I do the coordination

·3· ·for the Algoma District for training, so I have the

·4· ·advantage of kind of pulling in what we need.· And

·5· ·that is not just on a selfish note,

·6· ·Mr. Commissioner.· The only other full-time

·7· ·department -- we are a composite department.· The

·8· ·Sault is a full-time department.· And everybody

·9· ·else in the Algoma District, which runs from

10· ·Spanish to Hornepayne, is virtually true volunteers

11· ·with no pay.· Some of them are Northern Fire

12· ·Protection Teams.

13· · · · · · · ·And you know, so the needs are a little

14· ·bit different.· They are looking to get the pump-op

15· ·courses and the fire fighter courses and certain

16· ·times then we offer.· So in a case you'll note

17· ·through mine, I believe I have taken it once more,

18· ·I believe, the basic Incident Command Course, which

19· ·I believe we have hosted here three times in the

20· ·last ten years.

21· · · · · · · ·And the whole point of doing that is,

22· ·one, I have got new people coming on.· I offer it

23· ·not just to the Captains or the full-time people.

24· ·I offer it to my volunteers, which a large number

25· ·of my volunteers are able to -- had the course and

·1· ·had the training.· And the reason for that is it

·2· ·does a number of things.

·3· · · · · · · ·One, you are here and you are acting as

·4· ·a team, so when you are running those scenarios,

·5· ·everybody is operating together.· Where if I take a

·6· ·course at the Fire College, I'm the only one and I

·7· ·am being taught that way.· We are all getting the

·8· ·same lessons and all working off the same page

·9· ·here.

10· · · · · · · ·The other thing that that does is I

11· ·have a multitude -- you always have people coming

12· ·up.· Incident Command, a large part of it is

13· ·experience and confidence, and this allows them to

14· ·run those scenarios, get critiqued, maybe even a

15· ·little bit of ribbing sometimes, but everybody gets

16· ·to see and learn from those mistakes that are made

17· ·that are not on the fire ground.· So hopefully it

18· ·makes that individual stronger and have the

19· ·confidence in being able to run those calls.

20· · · · · · · ·So there is definite benefit for us to

21· ·do that, and I am almost positive all my full-time

22· ·have done guaranteed at least twice, if not three

23· ·times we have held that course here.· And we are

24· ·due again.· I like to do it about every three

25· ·years, three to four years.· It is just getting

·1· ·tougher and tougher, and it is quite an expense to

·2· ·bring.· I actually bring in outside fire fighters

·3· ·that are trained that are associate instructors

·4· ·that run the courses.· They run the scenarios.· We

·5· ·do desktop and then we also do the actual calls

·6· ·where we simulate different scenarios.

·7· · · · · · · ·And then also in line I brought an

·8· ·expert in from Ottawa, and I will call him an

·9· ·expert because he is very -- and I can't remember

10· ·his name offhand, but it goes along which is big

11· ·and helpful for us is it is reading smoke and we --

12· ·of course, we offer this out to other fire

13· ·departments.· And that course was very beneficial

14· ·on the multitude of ways that you can get yourself

15· ·into trouble when you are pulling up to a fire

16· ·scene, doing your assessment, and that Incident

17· ·Commander has to be able to identify where that --

18· ·basically where that fire is in the structure, if

19· ·he can, and he has to be able to read by the colour

20· ·of the smoke exactly what he is facing.· If he ends

21· ·up putting his people in there at the wrong time,

22· ·he has got to try and estimate the time that that

23· ·fire has been burning because potentially the

24· ·trusses could be burned through and let go or the

25· ·floor or so, and a big part of that is reading the

·1· ·smoke.· And that is all part of the Incident

·2· ·Command that he has to be able to deal with in

·3· ·seconds.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· What determines if

·5· ·you are going to be a composite or a strictly

·6· ·volunteer department?· Is it population?

·7· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.· To be honest with

·8· ·you, and I'll get my plug in for this now, I wish

·9· ·we had a standard similar to the OPP.· I believe

10· ·the OPP are pretty close to one officer per

11· ·thousand.

12· · · · · · · ·The OFM, and it seems to work, but the

13· ·OFM has left it up and it is in the Act that

14· ·Council sets the level of service.· So you have

15· ·some departments that are quite large, say a 35,000

16· ·population, and they may be strictly a volunteer

17· ·department.

18· · · · · · · ·In our particular case, we are a

19· ·composite.· We have both.· There are other

20· ·departments that are wholly full-time.

21· · · · · · · ·And it makes it somewhat difficult,

22· ·because every time you get a new CAO and a new

23· ·Mayor or a new Council, you have to go through the

24· ·process of justifying why you have full-time

25· ·because so and so down the road does it strictly

·1· ·with volunteers and it is cheaper.· So it is a bit

·2· ·of a hindrance for the Chiefs, that is for sure.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· When it is an

·4· ·all-volunteer department, is there nevertheless a

·5· ·full-time Chief, or could the Chief be as well

·6· ·part-time?

·7· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, the Chief -- a lot

·8· ·of the Chiefs are part-time.· Blind River, just

·9· ·southwest of us, they moved to a full-time Chief

10· ·there about two years ago, and the rest of his

11· ·department, he is the only full-time member.

12· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So it is a Council

13· ·decision?

14· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Strictly a Council

15· ·decision to set the level of service.

16· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right, thank

17· ·you.

18· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What is the expectation of

20· ·training for your volunteers?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The volunteers, when they start,

22· ·we have a minimum requirement that we are looking

23· ·for them to achieve, and that is everything from

24· ·background tech to physical fitness.· There is --

25· ·we have a standard that we have in place, and then

·1· ·we have a minimum of 24 hours of training that we

·2· ·go heavily on their PPE, their personal protective

·3· ·equipment, and the SCBA, the self-contained

·4· ·breathing apparatus.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·24 hours over what period of time?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·As quick as they can do it.· Part

·7· ·of it, if they are keen, we will allow them to come

·8· ·in, as long as they call ahead, and the full-time

·9· ·will work them through that particular training.

10· · · · · · · ·Part of it is allowing us to do

11· ·assessment of them as well, and it is not for

12· ·everybody.· Some people put that mask on and they

13· ·get claustrophobic.· So we are doing a -- I guess a

14· ·weaning process at the same time and seeing if they

15· ·are actually going to be a fit.

16· · · · · · · ·Then they also get involved, and I

17· ·won't bring them on until we have that minimum.

18· ·These people are not going to be used on a fire

19· ·ground essentially when they first start.· And

20· ·depending on the training, the faster they can get

21· ·up to a standard that we need, then they will be

22· ·utilized.

23· · · · · · · ·So say there is an example of say

24· ·somebody is fairly new, we do everything in pairs

25· ·and so that person -- and again, this puts a lot of

·1· ·onus on the Incident Commander.· He has to be able

·2· ·to look at his people and say, okay, is everybody

·3· ·that he is seeing at the same level and who can do

·4· ·what jobs, and so he is essentially looking at that

·5· ·person and taking place.

·6· · · · · · · ·The only time that it really becomes an

·7· ·issue and they are told right from the start if you

·8· ·are given a task that you cannot do, then speak up

·9· ·and say no, I can't do it.

10· · · · · · · ·So when those people first start, they

11· ·will basically graduate through various things, you

12· ·know, to move up and then eventually get in on an

13· ·attack team or a search team or gain the

14· ·experience.· So it is just not the training.· It is

15· ·the training and the experience of actual fire

16· ·calls.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, let's take this in steps.

18· ·The first thing that you require is that the

19· ·prospective volunteer get 24 hours of training

20· ·under their belt?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, that is strictly with their

22· ·personal protective equipment and the SCBA, so --

23· ·and then there is other things in there as well,

24· ·but you know, that is --

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What I am really just looking for

·1· ·is at the end of 24 hours training, does that mean

·2· ·that they can answer a call or does that just mean

·3· ·that they have reached a point where, okay, we are

·4· ·prepared now to move forward with this person?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, essentially, we bring them

·6· ·on.· They are actually called a reserve at that

·7· ·point, which they don't respond to calls.· We

·8· ·integrate them into our training so that they are

·9· ·moving forward on the same schedule.· And once they

10· ·get that minimum training, then we will bring them

11· ·on, but they are used very, very lightly.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So typically, how long between the

13· ·time someone is accepted as a volunteer and they

14· ·actually attend at a fire, how long does that time

15· ·usually take?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, a large part depends on the

17· ·volunteer.· Some of them, if they do it fairly

18· ·quickly -- and it all depends on which courses they

19· ·catch as well.· The Mod A and Mod B, which is the

20· ·basic fire fighting courses, actually, I have one

21· ·individual going down today to take that course and

22· ·it is just north of the Sault.

23· · · · · · · ·If they take those courses, it moves

24· ·them along a lot faster, but when they complete the

25· ·24-hour training and they meet the minimums, they

·1· ·will be able to -- they are given their gear and

·2· ·they will be able to respond to the calls.· They

·3· ·won't have all of the Mod A or all of the Mod B,

·4· ·but they will not be used in a situation where they

·5· ·don't have the skills to be able to perform a task.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, I'm not sure you answered my

·7· ·question.· I'm not looking for the brightest

·8· ·student in the class or the worst student in the

·9· ·class, but just sort of an average time frame so

10· ·that we can just have some --

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Three months.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Three months?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, about three months.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And at the end of that

15· ·three months, that person would be allowed to

16· ·attend and not only attend but actually

17· ·participate?· I'm not suggesting he or she would be

18· ·the Incident Commander, but they would be allowed

19· ·to actually do something rather than just stand and

20· ·watch?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what is the expectation on a

23· ·going-forward basis in terms of the volunteers in

24· ·terms of continuing training?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·We follow the Fire College

·1· ·Curriculum, and essentially, they can work up

·2· ·probably about -- well, I think about seven or

·3· ·eight years ago I set the training up for them to

·4· ·follow that curriculum and then they can -- we

·5· ·actually have a class system, so they start as a

·6· ·probation and they move to fourth class, third

·7· ·class, second class.· And part of that is training

·8· ·and part of that is time and part of that is

·9· ·getting the appropriate sign-offs, and some of

10· ·those sign-offs have to take place at a fire to be

11· ·able to do that.

12· · · · · · · ·At the end of the day, they can achieve

13· ·their Level 1, which they can actually write for

14· ·their provincial certification.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Which means what?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That it is recognized throughout

17· ·the province, so --

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·They could present themselves

19· ·someplace and get hired as a full-time --

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- on the basis of that?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, and we have people scattered

23· ·all over the place.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, within the Elliot Lake Fire

25· ·Department, is there an expectation of a certain

·1· ·amount of training on an ongoing basis for --

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- volunteers?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, there is.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And can you give me an indication

·6· ·of how much, like on an hourly basis?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Hourly?· The by-law is pretty,

·8· ·pretty low.· I think the by-law says they only have

·9· ·to attend 10 or 20 percent of the training and 10

10· ·or 20 percent of the actual fire calls.

11· · · · · · · ·Part of it is a combination of both.

12· ·I'll take say a senior volunteer who has been

13· ·around and they have done the training probably two

14· ·or three times.· If they are attending a lot of the

15· ·calls and they make the specific training that I

16· ·need them to make, I'm happy with that because they

17· ·are maintaining their skills.

18· · · · · · · ·On the other end, I have had volunteers

19· ·that have not been out enough to maintain their

20· ·training, and I have had to let them go because of

21· ·that.· And it is monitored.

22· · · · · · · ·Part of that is -- and just to add to

23· ·that, part of that, when I say it is monitored, we

24· ·have -- I think we do it quarterly , and I now

25· ·share those records with my full-time fire

·1· ·fighters, because if that individual, say he might

·2· ·hit a training night, and they do every fourth

·3· ·training, so it could be possible that a full-time

·4· ·fire fighter that is doing his Wednesday night

·5· ·training sessions, he might not see that individual

·6· ·for three or four months unless it is at fire

·7· ·calls.· So in his mind, he hasn't seen this guy and

·8· ·this guy hasn't done the training, so this is part

·9· ·of the reason that we share that information.· And

10· ·usually, if there is a problem, they bring it

11· ·forward to me.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I'm just looking for some sort

13· ·of an average number of hours that you would expect

14· ·a volunteer either answering a call or attending

15· ·training on a monthly basis or a semi-annual basis,

16· ·just some sort of a figure --

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·When they are hired, I like to see

18· ·them come out every Wednesday, so it is, what,

19· ·eight hours a month.· After they have been around a

20· ·little bit, then if they make two sessions a month,

21· ·they pretty much can maintain their training at

22· ·that point.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So two Wednesday night sessions a

24· ·month is what you would like to see as a minimum?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·As a minimum, yeah.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And then obviously that

·2· ·could be supplemented by actual experience in

·3· ·answering calls?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, absolutely, uhm-hmm.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, okay.· Now, with respect to

·6· ·your full-time personnel, what is the expectation

·7· ·of their training level?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I'm glad you brought that

·9· ·up.· Essentially, when they start -- and actually,

10· ·I'm kind of proud of the training that we have.

11· ·Our volunteer training, it is pretty -- the guys do

12· ·a really good job on it, and why I say that is when

13· ·we do a hiring process for a full-time, there is a

14· ·fairly rigorous process that has to be gone through

15· ·and there is one particular test, and I won't -- I

16· ·can't take claim to this.· This is the former

17· ·Chief's test that is used.· It is very, very

18· ·difficult, and getting through the process is very

19· ·difficult.· My Council will not allow me to close

20· ·shop and say hire from the volunteers.· It is an

21· ·open process.· So these guys have to be able to go

22· ·against anybody that comes in.· And I don't know if

23· ·you are aware of the college courses for pre-fire

24· ·fighting that takes place, and my guys are

25· ·competing with those people who have just come

·1· ·through a year's course and they are beating them.

·2· ·So in all of the last -- well, since I have been

·3· ·the Chief, they have all come out of our

·4· ·volunteers.

·5· · · · · · · ·Typically, a volunteer -- not a

·6· ·volunteer.· A student I'll say or somebody that has

·7· ·taken a pre-fire service, that particular test,

·8· ·they are coming in at about 58 to 60 percent.· You

·9· ·have got to have 75 to move on to the next step, so

10· ·it thins them out pretty quick.· And that is

11· ·knowledge, that means they have that fire fighter

12· ·knowledge.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Getting back to my question, as

14· ·far as your full-time fire fighters, what is the

15· ·expectation?· They have been hired full-time and

16· ·they are there, they are with you.· How much

17· ·training are they expected to do?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right, so that gets you the first

19· ·part for them to even get there.· So their

20· ·knowledge, they pretty much have to memorize that

21· ·IFSTA Manual, which is basically every skill a fire

22· ·fighter will have to have.· At that point, I'm

23· ·either pushing them through the Company Officer

24· ·Program or the Fire Prevention Officer's Program,

25· ·CFPO I think it is called.· I have some moving

·1· ·through two streams and some moving -- one may be

·2· ·moving through Company Officer and one moving more

·3· ·towards the fire prevention.· Most of that is to

·4· ·try and fill my overall needs for the entire

·5· ·community, because of course we do fire prevention

·6· ·inspections.

·7· · · · · · · ·Their training, they -- it is not a

·8· ·problem in getting those guys.· Like I said, when

·9· ·that calendar comes out, I usually get a stack and

10· ·I have to whittle it down so we can be fair to send

11· ·everybody and get everybody through as much as we

12· ·can.· I use the process.· I try to give them the

13· ·direction that they have interest.· But I like to

14· ·see them all move through the Company Officer

15· ·Program, and by the time they have an opportunity

16· ·to become a Captain, that they have those programs

17· ·pretty much in place or pretty darn close.

18· · · · · · · ·There is no set standard to having that

19· ·say as a Captain -- I shouldn't say that.· In the

20· ·last few years, the Ministry of Labour has moved to

21· ·three courses, and this will come under the new

22· ·NFPA, but under the old system it was what they

23· ·called the Level 1.· A Level 1 in the eyes of the

24· ·Ministry of Labour was what was deemed needed to be

25· ·a competent supervisor, and that was the

·1· ·Legislation 101, the 401 and the Incident Command

·2· ·course, and you needed that to be an Incident

·3· ·Commander.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Do you have any

·5· ·women at the moment either as volunteers or

·6· ·full-time?

·7· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· My last hire was our

·8· ·first female full-time fire fighter.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· The first one.

10· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· And we do -- throughout

11· ·the years, I think we have always had at least one

12· ·female volunteer fire fighter, and I actually have

13· ·another lady just starting.

14· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· As a volunteer?

15· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· As a volunteer.

16· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So at the moment,

17· ·you have one volunteer and one full-time?

18· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct.

19· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, I want to move to a different

21· ·topic, and that is there are a number of principles

22· ·that are brought to bear by fire personnel when

23· ·they respond to a call that are universal in

24· ·nature, that there is always going to be a first

25· ·person responding, these sorts of issues.· And then

·1· ·we'll look at these principles, and then we'll look

·2· ·at the actual reason that we are here, that is, the

·3· ·actual response to the collapse at the mall.

·4· · · · · · · ·So the first document that we might --

·5· ·you might find helpful in answering some questions

·6· ·here is Exhibit No. 8053, and as I just mentioned

·7· ·to you yesterday, this is a PowerPoint that was put

·8· ·together by Ken Barnes from your office a number of

·9· ·years ago.

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, Ken is actually my Senior

11· ·Captain.· Ken was the fellow that I used as the

12· ·Incident Safety Officer at the mall collapse, and

13· ·he pulled this together as part of our training

14· ·package and, of course, that is what we have here.

15· · · · · · · ·It basically runs through the

16· ·different -- well, essentially through everything

17· ·that deals with Incident Command essentially on

18· ·when you are responding, what the Incident

19· ·Commander is going to be doing when he is doing his

20· ·size-up.· Basically, there is what they call the

21· ·rule of eight, which is different things that you

22· ·need to do or benchmarks that you would be looking

23· ·at being able to achieve.· Say in a fire call, the

24· ·incident -- or the Incident Commander makes his

25· ·Incident Action Plan doing his 360.· Essentially,

·1· ·it is risk management.· That is really what it is.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, well, I'm just -- I'm not

·3· ·going to go through every single item that is

·4· ·marked here, but there are a couple that I think

·5· ·are worthwhile looking at.

·6· · · · · · · ·If you could go to page 004, please,

·7· ·Ms. Kuka, and it talks about what the first person

·8· ·on scene is expected to do?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and it says:

11· · · · · · · · · "You have a responsibility for

12· · · · · · · ·Size Up".

13· · · · · · · ·What is that?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Say if it is a fire at a house,

15· ·essentially size-up is to try and gather as much

16· ·information as you can.· So obviously, size-up

17· ·starts even before you get there because on your

18· ·way to the call you are looking for smoke.· On the

19· ·way there you are also -- it is a fairly small

20· ·community, so we have the benefit of knowing pretty

21· ·much where the hydrants are and what type of

22· ·building it is going to be because you have the

23· ·address.· If the call came in, depending on how the

24· ·call came in, you can usually tell if the people

25· ·are in -- sometimes the -- in or out of the

·1· ·structure.

·2· · · · · · · ·I mean, and your priorities are going

·3· ·to be obviously life safety first, then controlling

·4· ·that particular instance, the fire, and then

·5· ·property conservation.· And of course, fire fighter

·6· ·safety is also a top priority.· They are

·7· ·actually -- it used to be three, and now they

·8· ·pretty much run that in as the fourth.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·The first person who responds to

10· ·an incident by definition is going to be an

11· ·Incident Commander because there is nobody else

12· ·there?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· When someone of a more

15· ·superior rank arrives, do they then become the

16· ·Incident Commander?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I see here at the bottom

19· ·bullet point on the left-hand side it says:

20· · · · · · · · · "Brief the incoming IC when he

21· · · · · · · ·arrives on scene".

22· · · · · · · ·So that is what is anticipated there;

23· ·is that correct?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when it says "brief", what

·1· ·sort of information should the person who has done

·2· ·the size-up be passing on to the Incident

·3· ·Commander?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, it would probably be better if

·5· ·I give you an example, and this is before I was

·6· ·Chief.· There was a fire up the road from my place.

·7· ·I was first there.· There was another fire fighter

·8· ·there as well.· And essentially, what you are doing

·9· ·is you are doing the same things, and this is why I

10· ·like to allow my guys to have the Incident Command.

11· ·You are trying to gather as much information as you

12· ·possibly can.

13· · · · · · · ·In this particular instance, the

14· ·individual was cleaning his basement with gasoline,

15· ·caught himself on fire, and so we dealt with him

16· ·before the truck was there.· We dug the hydrant

17· ·out.· We moved the car out of the driveway, because

18· ·it is an exposure and it was hindering access

19· ·because we had snow banks four or five feet wide.

20· · · · · · · ·When that Incident Commander comes on

21· ·scene, we tell him exactly where the fire was, what

22· ·the cause was, because we knew that talking to the

23· ·person that was injured.· We told them where that

24· ·person was.· The ambulance was already en route.

25· ·We passed on the information of where the hydrant

·1· ·was so that he knows where his water source is, and

·2· ·probably the extent of the damage as best as we

·3· ·could figure out from what you are sizing up to be.

·4· · · · · · · ·So all that information is passed to

·5· ·the Incident Commander when he shows up on scene.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·If we could go to page 007, and

·7· ·dealing again with the size-up but now for a

·8· ·different purpose, the size-up is not a static

·9· ·function; is that not correct, Chief?· It is a

10· ·constantly evolving process?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if you look at it, at the

13· ·bottom three bullet points on page 007 --

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I actually, I -- my saying is what

15· ·have I got, where is it going, and what am I going

16· ·to do about it?

17· · · · · · · ·If you ask yourself those three

18· ·questions every time you come to a call, it is a

19· ·pretty good lead on getting ahead of that

20· ·particular instance.· In this case, like you said,

21· ·Ken likes:

22· · · · · · · · · "What has happened?· What is

23· · · · · · · ·happening?· And what is going to

24· · · · · · · ·happen".

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that is contained on the very

·1· ·next page, Ms. Kuka, if we could just have that,

·2· ·please.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And part of that is like you said,

·4· ·you have to constantly be reassessing as

·5· ·information comes in.· You really want to try and

·6· ·if you can achieve a 360 size-up, which is get

·7· ·around the entire building, because as you are

·8· ·walking around that building, without doing that

·9· ·size-up, you have only got half the picture.

10· · · · · · · ·And you also have to remember when you

11· ·are doing a size-up, say in the case of a fire, you

12· ·are trying to find out where the seat of that fire

13· ·is and what the extent of that fire is, how far it

14· ·has gone, how long it has been burning.· These are

15· ·all questions that you have got to have in your

16· ·mind.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So as we can see, that this

18· ·constant analysis is really the answering of those

19· ·three questions, that is, what has happened, what

20· ·is happening now, and what is going to happen?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So obviously, in the third bullet

23· ·point, the "What is going to happen?" process, that

24· ·is what is going to drive your tactics, what you

25· ·think is likely to happen?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right, yeah.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, when you are going through

·3· ·this analysis of the what is going to happen, it is

·4· ·really just your best judgment; correct?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·With the information that you are

·6· ·supplied or that you see, that's correct.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Typically, do you develop a

·8· ·plan B at this stage?· Like you say, well, this is

·9· ·what I think is going to happen and this is what

10· ·we'll do, but on the other hand, it might not play

11· ·out this way.· I want to think about maybe if it

12· ·doesn't work, this is what we'll do?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I wouldn't say necessarily a

14· ·plan B.· You are trying to keep ahead of the

15· ·incident.· And I will give you an example, it is

16· ·easier.· We had a -- actually, this is a fatal a

17· ·couple of years ago in the trailer park, and once

18· ·we breached the door and we actually got in,

19· ·ventilated and started suppressing the fire, we

20· ·found out the floor was gone.· So that fire had

21· ·been burning for hours and hours.

22· · · · · · · ·It got very large because it was

23· ·actually smouldered out.· And when I say getting

24· ·ahead of it, because the floor was gone, we had a

25· ·difficulty.· We lost the one side of the building

·1· ·due to hydro lines, and we couldn't get that fire

·2· ·suppressed to the way we wanted.· So the getting

·3· ·ahead of it is there was another structure within

·4· ·four feet of that, so getting ahead of that is

·5· ·getting the lines in place and the manpower in

·6· ·place to protect those exposures so that you don't

·7· ·lose that particular structure as well.· The first

·8· ·one was already gone.

·9· · · · · · · ·So it is a -- so that is basically if

10· ·you are referring to a plan B, that is the kind of

11· ·things.

12· · · · · · · ·Or another instance would be I think

13· ·one of the -- one of my fire fighters used the

14· ·eight-storey fire we had a couple of years ago.· If

15· ·that breaches from one unit to the other and you

16· ·can't get it under control, in most cases training

17· ·in high-rises people shelter in place, and with the

18· ·construction you can usually get in there and get

19· ·that fire out before the fire separations fail.

20· · · · · · · ·If you are in a particular case that it

21· ·is already breached and you have got a potential to

22· ·lose the building, well, you better be looking at

23· ·evacuating and evacuating ahead of that fire.

24· · · · · · · ·So these are all things that you have

25· ·to look at, and a lot of these decisions are made

·1· ·within seconds because you don't have time and you

·2· ·have to do it.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, if we could go to page 015,

·4· ·and we can see here that there seems to be a

·5· ·universal truth in terms of tactical priorities.

·6· ·It says:

·7· · · · · · · · · "Regardless of the Strategy

·8· · · · · · · ·selected by the IC, tactical

·9· · · · · · · ·priorities will always be the same:

10· · · · · · · · · ·[Number 1] Rescue.

11· · · · · · · · · ·[Number 2] Fire Control.

12· · · · · · · · · ·[And number 3] Property

13· · · · · · · ·Conservation"?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So obviously life before property?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yes, and that goes along with

17· ·the saying that we'll risk a lot to save a lot;

18· ·we'll risk a little to save a little; and we'll

19· ·risk nothing to save nothing.· So if the building

20· ·is already lost, we are not risking fire fighters

21· ·for it.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so we can find that at the

23· ·next page, 016.

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·He did a good job on this

25· ·PowerPoint.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that is simply what you have

·2· ·just told us before about the risk versus benefit?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· And that is always a

·4· ·consideration, especially when it comes to fires,

·5· ·in gauging how fast that fire and how long when you

·6· ·are doing your size-up is always a very difficult

·7· ·one to deal with because you do not have glasses

·8· ·that can see into that building, so you -- at a

·9· ·certain point, you are taking a leap of faith by

10· ·putting your fire fighters in there.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the first point says that:

12· · · · · · · · · "We will risk our lives a lot, in

13· · · · · · · ·a highly calculated manner, to

14· · · · · · · ·protect savable lives."

15· · · · · · · ·And the saveable part would be on the

16· ·information that you have?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And:

19· · · · · · · · · "We will risk our lives a little,

20· · · · · · · ·in a highly calculated manner, to

21· · · · · · · ·protect savable property.

22· · · · · · · · · ·We will not risk our lives at

23· · · · · · · ·all, to save lives or property that

24· · · · · · · ·are already lost!"

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, is this an accurate

·2· ·reflection of the type of analysis that drives all

·3· ·of your decisions on a fire?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At the bottom of it all, this

·6· ·calculus is what tips the favour one way or the

·7· ·other as far as a course of action?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, a term that you have used and

10· ·if you could just assist us moving forward here is

11· ·"benchmarks".· What does the term "benchmarks"

12· ·mean?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·These are items that the OFM have

14· ·on our standard Incident Reporting Form that they

15· ·like to achieve, and I gather they use it for their

16· ·statistics.· And benchmarks can be like when you

17· ·are applying water, you want to know when you are

18· ·applying water, you want to know when the loss is

19· ·stopped, so when finally no more damage is

20· ·happening.· If you are doing a primary search, you

21· ·want to have that information there and secondary

22· ·search.· And these are benchmarks that are kind of

23· ·a set standard to try and achieve every time that

24· ·you are running a call.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Meaning are these things that you

·1· ·are supposed to be doing, or are these just things

·2· ·that are going to happen anyway and they just want

·3· ·to know when they happened?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is actually both.· I mean, you

·5· ·know, it helps you keep a methodology on how you

·6· ·are doing that call.· I believe they use them for

·7· ·benchmarking is for their statistics, so that you

·8· ·have an idea, okay, well, they got on scene; holy

·9· ·smokes, it took them 25 minutes to get water, and

10· ·there better be a reason for that, right.· So it is

11· ·a way that they can actually monitor, I believe,

12· ·the Fire Departments.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So when you -- I gather that there

14· ·is a reporting obligation on a Chief to the Fire

15· ·Marshals Office after a fire has been attended to?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And are these benchmarks things

18· ·that you report on?· So for example, it will say on

19· ·a form when -- what time did you arrive, what time

20· ·did you get the call?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.· It has got all

22· ·that information on there.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so these benchmarks are

24· ·events that happen in the course of an incident

25· ·that have been earmarked by the Fire Marshals

·1· ·Office in order for them to look at the efficiency

·2· ·of various Fire Departments?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is a way of gathering

·4· ·statistics across the province for the Fire

·5· ·Marshal.· Just about five years ago they actually

·6· ·increased those numbers substantially to add more

·7· ·items in there and more on the life safety, and

·8· ·then they really changed a large part of it for us

·9· ·to track smoke alarms, were they working when we

10· ·got on the scene; were they not working; why they

11· ·were not working; was there one on every level.

12· ·They added those particular type items and along

13· ·with a few more that assist him in identifying

14· ·where the weaknesses in Ontario is and where the

15· ·highest risk is and how to target effectively their

16· ·prevention programs that then flow down through

17· ·Fire Chiefs and down through to the communities.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What does the term

19· ·"accountability" mean?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Accountability?· When it comes to

21· ·being able to track men, is that what you are

22· ·referring to?

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.· Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Accountability is in our

25· ·particular case we have a board on the truck that

·1· ·is the same place that the fire fighters will

·2· ·attend.· As you heard earlier, each fire fighter

·3· ·has two tags.· They actually tag in.· There is a

·4· ·clock on the board, so we know when they arrive.

·5· ·They actually put the time next to their tag, and

·6· ·then that information is recorded and attached to

·7· ·the call report.· It helps me on tracking our

·8· ·responses as well.· That way we know who is on

·9· ·scene.

10· · · · · · · ·We have a secondary board that is

11· ·usually for the hot zone, and it is an entry

12· ·control.· And the second tag, if they enter in

13· ·there, that is where that is used.· And that is

14· ·also tracked by an accountability person, I guess,

15· ·a fire fighter.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·If we could look at Exhibit No.

17· ·7941, please.· Now, I gather -- do you recognize

18· ·the fire fighter in the foreground?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe it is Joe Hammond.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So he is one of yours?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, he is.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What I wanted to draw your

23· ·attention to is the board that is on the right-hand

24· ·side of the -- leaning up against the side of the

25· ·van.

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is that an accountability board?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it is.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And just explain how that works

·5· ·there?· I can see that it says "Tags", "Crew",

·6· ·"In", "Out"?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, the red part at the top --

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It might be easier for you, Chief,

·9· ·if you look on your screen, because it is a little

10· ·clearer.

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, actually, it is.· I can't

12· ·read the numbers, but where the red section is that

13· ·you can see, that is actually a clock so that the

14· ·individual has a clock.· We try and keep that

15· ·synced with our Panda system, which does all our

16· ·recordings which is --

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What is the Panda system?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It records all of our radio

19· ·communications, and it is actually set to the

20· ·atomic clock.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That is better.· Thank you, Ms.

22· ·Kuka.

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, so basically what it is, it

24· ·will tag in and tag out who is where and who is on

25· ·scene.· In this particular case, this is probably

·1· ·the board on who is on scene.· And as you can see,

·2· ·this event became quite a bit larger than our

·3· ·little board and they actually used the van to

·4· ·write on the van and track people that way.

·5· · · · · · · ·That was one of the things that we were

·6· ·responsible for and to maintain.· That way, if we

·7· ·had an event, say a further collapse, we would know

·8· ·exactly who was in and who was out and tracking

·9· ·personnel.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So it is your understanding, your

11· ·belief is that this, the board that we are actually

12· ·looking at in this particular exhibit is the one

13· ·that tracks who is on scene as opposed to the one

14· ·that would keep track of those persons that are in

15· ·the hot zone?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·In this particular case, if I

17· ·remember right, I believe the command tent was just

18· ·on this side, everybody that went from command tent

19· ·through.· This could have been being used as the

20· ·entry control as well.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, the entry control to

22· ·what?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The structure.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·To the hot zone?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Which is something different than

·2· ·simply being on scene?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Still being tracked.

·6· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· What we are seeing

·7· ·on the left there where it says "Tags", is that the

·8· ·Velcro patch?

·9· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, it is.

10· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Or are we looking at

11· ·the actual tags of the individuals?

12· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, that is the actual

13· ·Velcro, but as you can see --

14· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So why aren't their

15· ·tags on there?

16· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In this particular case,

17· ·they probably stopped using them and started just

18· ·writing on it, or they didn't have tags, these

19· ·individuals.· If you look on the right side, I

20· ·think it says "HUSAR", so they wouldn't be having

21· ·the tags that we have on our system.

22· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Oh, so that board is

23· ·a HUSAR board?

24· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That is our board, but

25· ·they wouldn't have the tags that we have that are

·1· ·on the Velcro.

·2· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Oh, I see.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So they are -- in this

·4· ·particular case, at this time it looks like they

·5· ·are tracking the HUSAR individuals and that is why

·6· ·the tags aren't there.· So they would have either

·7· ·written down a name or some kind of identification

·8· ·to know who was who.· That is good pick-up, though,

·9· ·you are correct.

10· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Just to follow up on that, if we

12· ·could have a look at Exhibit No. 7962, please.· The

13· ·green tent in the background, do you recognize

14· ·that?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and what is it?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That was about probably either

18· ·late Sunday afternoon or Monday we ended up moving

19· ·the command tent to down to the lower level.· That

20· ·was the tent that the HUSAR team brought that we

21· ·used as the command tent.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So that was --

23· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And you said the

24· ·green tent in the background.· You don't mean the

25· ·one on the upper right, Mr. Wallace?

·1· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:· Oh, no, I'm sorry, no,

·2· ·it is the one at the upper left.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Because there are

·4· ·two there in the background.

·5· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, right.· So the one on the

·7· ·upper left is the HUSAR tent that was being used as

·8· ·the command post?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And actually we used it as well,

10· ·because we don't have a tent of that size.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what about the red tent or

12· ·covering?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is accountability.· We had

14· ·everything -- on the left side of that was the

15· ·stairway that came up to that platform or that

16· ·parking area.· Everybody had to flow through that

17· ·particular funnel point to get on scene, and it was

18· ·also between command and the structure.· So that is

19· ·the accountability, and that looks like one of my

20· ·fire fighters manning it.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Can you show me on

22· ·the big map where what we are seeing on screen is

23· ·located on the big map?

24· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah, I was just going to do that.

·1· ·Could we have the laser, please?· There you go,

·2· ·Chief.· If you could outline on that, the big board

·3· ·there, and that is Exhibit No. 2114, where it is we

·4· ·are looking at?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·For the accountability or the

·6· ·command tent?

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, why don't we start with the

·8· ·command tent first.

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, that is the command tent

10· ·here.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·No, I understand that, but on the

12· ·big --

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Can you show us on

14· ·the picture?

15· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh, on here?

16· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Yes.

17· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh, I'm sorry.· Command

18· ·was sent -- this particular picture that you are

19· ·showing, that is right about here.· And that red

20· ·structure that you are seeing there, the tent, it

21· ·was here.

22· · · · · · · ·So anybody that was coming onto scene,

23· ·the OPP had this blocked off.· They either had to

24· ·enter through here or through the other end, but

25· ·the majority of everybody coming on through was

·1· ·through this point and they had to come up to these

·2· ·stairs and that is right where that entry control

·3· ·was.

·4· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the accountability was being

·6· ·done in the red tent?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that was being done by your

·9· ·forces?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And they would have to pass

12· ·through there in order to get into the hot zone?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So was there any accountability

15· ·being done as far as the scene, any separate

16· ·accountability as far as the scene and the hot

17· ·zone, or were they both taking place at the same

18· ·time?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·They were both taking place, as

20· ·far as I know, through that accountability.· Now,

21· ·each -- I believe the teams that went through, that

22· ·came through would have a team leader.

23· · · · · · · ·So an example of that, say my guys were

24· ·mixed, given a task, say HUSAR needed manpower. I

25· ·would appoint two and basically say, okay, you go

·1· ·with whoever the lead was on that and basically do

·2· ·what you are being instructed to do.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What I am getting at here is were

·4· ·there -- I appreciate the fact that the

·5· ·accountability for the scene and the accountability

·6· ·for the hot zone were being done at the same

·7· ·location.· Were there separate boards, one for the

·8· ·scene and one for the hot zone?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·On the van, it tracked everything.

10· ·The van tracked everything.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so the person responsible

12· ·for accountability could look -- is that, it looks

13· ·like there is --

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·A red jumpsuit.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- a long piece of -- maybe you

16· ·could focus in on the side of the van, Ms. Kuka.

17· ·You see, are you able to -- yes, thank you, okay.

18· · · · · · · ·So if a person was looking at the side

19· ·of the van, they would be able to tell you two

20· ·things:· all persons on scene and all persons in

21· ·the hot zone; is that correct?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct, yes.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What -- there is a term that has

24· ·been used that is called "PAR"; what is that?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Personal Accountability Report.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what is that?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is used by an Incident

·3· ·Commander.· Say there is a drastic change in events

·4· ·on the scene or a predetermined time, depending on

·5· ·what your policy is, that you activate a PAR, and

·6· ·essentially what it is is -- and this particular

·7· ·individual, say he will go through the list and

·8· ·ensure that everybody is accounted for.

·9· · · · · · · ·So they will go through on the radio.

10· ·He'll identify them by their task usually.· So

11· ·we'll say when we did a PAR early on in this

12· ·instance, he'll go rescue 1 PAR; and they'll come

13· ·back PAR 2 north -- or not north.· They'll say

14· ·charlie delta side, or whatever their location is,

15· ·second floor.· And then he'll basically check them

16· ·off as okay, I know where those two guys are.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So it is the means on an

18· ·instantaneous basis of finding out exactly where

19· ·people are?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I wish it was instantaneous,

21· ·but it takes time because --

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·For people to respond?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, for people, yeah, because

24· ·they are doing tasks, plus normal operations are

25· ·still going on.· So you know, they are -- he is

·1· ·trying to get his communications in between mine

·2· ·and whoever else is on the radio as well.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in an incident, typically is

·4· ·there a person who has the responsibility for

·5· ·accountability?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·In this particular case, yes, I

·7· ·had a fire fighter doing that.· It does two things.

·8· ·In this case, he is very close to where I am.· The

·9· ·PAR that we did call early on was -- and I can't

10· ·remember, it was fairly shortly after I took

11· ·command because I wanted to make sure I knew

12· ·exactly where everybody was, and also I just

13· ·assigned accountability to that individual.

14· · · · · · · ·So you have to remember, he gets there;

15· ·he shows up; he is given that job.· He gets the

16· ·board, and he doesn't have a clue where everybody

17· ·is and I don't have the time to tell him.· So he

18· ·does -- I ask for a PAR.· He does the PAR.· Then he

19· ·gets the locations of all of the individuals, and

20· ·it also helped me on the transfer of command from

21· ·David George to myself that I know where everybody

22· ·is and everybody is accounted for.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So in this particular case, when

24· ·the Elliot Lake Fire responded, there was someone

25· ·who had the responsibility of accountability?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And leaving this incident out of

·3· ·the mix for a second, is this a position that is

·4· ·normally occupied in an event?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the complexity or the size of

·7· ·this particular event didn't change the fact that

·8· ·you, number one, have accountability and somebody

·9· ·responsible for it?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, what is an Incident Safety

12· ·Officer?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·If you -- you try to -- depending

14· ·on the scale of the incident, you try to have an

15· ·Incident Safety Officer, preferably it is one of

16· ·your more experienced fire fighters or one of the

17· ·other Captains that are not on shift.

18· · · · · · · ·An Incident Commander thinks, okay, how

19· ·am I going to get this job done and how am I going

20· ·to get done safely.· It is reverse with an Incident

21· ·Safety Officer.· An Incident Safety Officer is how

22· ·am I going to get this -- or how can I safely get

23· ·this job done?· His line of thinking is to be

24· ·changed a little bit, and he is a little more

25· ·strictly looking at the hazards.

·1· · · · · · · ·To assist the Incident Commander, he

·2· ·has the authority to be able to stop the work if he

·3· ·sees something that is a hazard and it is going to

·4· ·hurt one of the fire fighters or impact operations.

·5· ·In most cases, that is usually done in conjunction

·6· ·with the Incident Commander because you are, you

·7· ·know, a push of a button radio communication away.

·8· ·So if an Incident Safety Officer is not appointed,

·9· ·then it falls on the shoulders of the Incident

10· ·Commander.

11· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· But he could make

12· ·that decision without calling you in certain

13· ·circumstances?

14· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, he can.· Yes, and

15· ·that is --

16· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· He has authority to

17· ·do that?

18· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That is the whole point

19· ·of having that individual as the Incident Safety

20· ·Officer.· He'll actually -- on a fire, he'll I

21· ·won't say repeat, but he'll do his own 360.· But

22· ·his thinking is a little bit different.· He is

23· ·really specifically looking for those hazards, a

24· ·little finer-tuned than an Incident Commander is.

25· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And he is probably

·1· ·more mobile than you are; is that the situation?

·2· ·Is he going around the site?

·3· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh, yeah, he'll do a 360

·4· ·and do an evaluation as well, yeah, and if he spots

·5· ·anything that he has not heard in our

·6· ·communications or not been informed of, he'll then

·7· ·inform the Incident Commander of those things.

·8· · · · · · · ·I can honestly say my guys are

·9· ·extremely good at identifying hazards and sharing

10· ·of those hazards, and that helps keep everybody

11· ·safe.

12· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, you indicated that if you

14· ·don't appoint a Safety Officer, you as the Incident

15· ·Commander, it falls on the shoulder of the Incident

16· ·Commander?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·When you do appoint a Safety

19· ·Officer, is that their only function, that is, they

20· ·are there to watch, monitor and call things off if

21· ·they are -- or stop work if they see something that

22· ·is unsafe or potentially hazardous to the

23· ·responders?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So they are not doing safety in

·1· ·conjunction with something else?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, it is a hard trap not to fall

·3· ·into, but they are not supposed to be.· They are

·4· ·supposed to be strictly doing that function of

·5· ·Safety Officer.· It is a hard thing to see two

·6· ·people struggling with something and not go over

·7· ·and offer them a hand, but he is not supposed to be

·8· ·doing that.· So I can tell you, that is hard even

·9· ·as an Incident Commander not to do that.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, what is your understanding of

11· ·the IMS system?· What is its purpose?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is to manage the risk and have

13· ·some kind of control on an emergency scene to be

14· ·able to move things forward, and it can be done in

15· ·a number of ways.· It is basically to be able to

16· ·control your span of control of people that are

17· ·reporting to an Incident Commander.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what does "span of control"

19· ·mean?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Span of control is I believe the

21· ·studies show that an individual, depending on how

22· ·fast-paced it is, but an individual can really only

23· ·deal with about five things coming at him at once;

24· ·a slower-paced thing, maybe up to seven, up to

25· ·eight; really fast, maybe even down to four.

·1· · · · · · · ·The problem is you have that many

·2· ·people, you cannot deal with them effectively.· So

·3· ·you are breaking it out into smaller chunks, either

·4· ·by geological or geographical area or by sectors.

·5· ·In a fire, you would break it out -- probably maybe

·6· ·a good example would be in an ice water rescue you

·7· ·could appoint -- or even a fire, for that matter.

·8· ·As an Incident Commander say in a high-rise, I

·9· ·could appoint a Fire Sector Officer who essentially

10· ·has control of all the fire operations while I deal

11· ·say with evacuation and OPP and, you know, hydro,

12· ·gas, all of those things.· So you can actually

13· ·sector off different areas.

14· · · · · · · ·It is also expandible very, very

15· ·easily, and you can contract it very easily as

16· ·well, so as things slow down.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in terms of expanding and

18· ·contracting, it is to keep the numbers within that

19· ·span of control that you talked about?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct, so you don't

21· ·overwhelm that individual.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So if, for example, you have a

23· ·person in charge of a sector and originally they

24· ·were looking after seven or five people and the

25· ·group expanded to ten, then I would assume that you

·1· ·would have a second person appointed?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.· You can keep

·3· ·layering that down.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Does the Elliot Lake Fire

·5· ·Department employ IMS?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·We follow it.· It is not -- the

·7· ·Fire Service, it is not mandated that we do, but

·8· ·the teachings are to IMS.· Incident Command is

·9· ·mandated and is a part of IMS.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It is mandated or is not?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe so, yes.· Yes, you have

12· ·to have an Incident Command System or an Incident

13· ·Command Operational Guideline I guess to follow.

14· ·You have to -- all Fire Departments have to follow

15· ·Incident Command.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·As part of the information that

17· ·were received through Mr. Hefkey in his evidence a

18· ·couple of weeks ago, he indicated that there were

19· ·five different functions that occur in each and

20· ·every incident, and he identified them as command,

21· ·operations, logistics --

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Financing.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- finance, administration.· Is

24· ·that -- is this the same system you are talking

25· ·about?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, I would like to move to the

·3· ·actual event itself.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Could we -- just

·5· ·before you do that, Mr. Wallace, could you expand

·6· ·that picture again that we are looking at, Ms.

·7· ·Kuka, the exhibit?

·8· · · · · · · ·I would just like the Chief to explain

·9· ·to me what it is that we see there, unless you are

10· ·going to be coming back to that.

11· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Well, I was, but it is

12· ·here right now, so --

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· It doesn't matter.

14· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Yeah, go ahead.

15· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· In any event, could

16· ·you describe the scene that we see there?· You have

17· ·already described the HUSAR tent, and you were in

18· ·there, you say?

19· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, that's correct.· We

20· ·used the HUSAR command tent.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Okay.

22· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Prior to this,

23· ·Mr. Commissioner, referring to the other board --

24· ·and we were going to probably get into this, but we

25· ·can do it now -- command was set up right at the

·1· ·front door when the event first started.· We later

·2· ·moved over to here in the evening.· When HUSAR

·3· ·showed up, I believe their command tent was here,

·4· ·and that white truck you seen earlier, the big van

·5· ·was here.

·6· · · · · · · ·Then we ended up moving the command

·7· ·tent down to here, to make room for the Priestly

·8· ·equipment to come in.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· With the gravel and

10· ·all that.

11· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct.

12· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And that would have

13· ·been on the Monday?

14· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, so --

15· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So what we see there

16· ·would have been on the Monday?

17· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, that's correct.· And

18· ·that is at least the Monday, and by the look of

19· ·that shadow, that is probably Monday evening, and

20· ·that looks like Mr. Neadles standing here.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Yes, and in the

22· ·upper right and at the back what is it we see?

23· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We ended up -- I believe

24· ·right here we ended up bringing the OPP command

25· ·vehicle in.· To be honest with you, I can't really

·1· ·remember what that was.· I think it was just stores

·2· ·that they had equipment, equipment in there.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· That big green tent?

·4· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, yes, it was a HUSAR

·5· ·tent that was there.· And then of course, there is

·6· ·their bus back here.· And I think that is an OFM

·7· ·vehicle that brought in extra equipment, lighting,

·8· ·radios, and then of course the Port-A-Potties. I

·9· ·think that is an OPP van.· Maybe the dogs might be

10· ·in there.· If they have got the hood up, that means

11· ·it is running with the air conditioning going, so

12· ·I'm not a hundred percent sure on that.

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And so were UCRT and

14· ·TF-3 together and the ELFD all together in that

15· ·green tent?

16· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, pretty much.· Yeah,

17· ·pretty much.· It was the command hub, I guess,

18· ·yeah.

19· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And that other red

20· ·canopy?

21· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not quite sure, to be

22· ·honest with you.· I can't remember what that was

23· ·being used for.· It might have just been an area

24· ·for overflow or for the guys to -- something with

25· ·more air to get through.

·1· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Sure.

·2· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Those tents got extremely

·3· ·hot.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Not a critical --

·5· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, exactly, I don't even

·6· ·really remember what it is, to be honest with you.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Not as critical as

·8· ·your -- as the first red canopy?

·9· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's right, yes.

10· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right, go ahead,

11· ·Mr. Wallace.

12· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· We'll come back to

14· ·this a little later.· But, Chief, I want to now

15· ·move into the actual events that took place, and I

16· ·think there are really three different documents

17· ·that we'll refer to and I think it might be helpful

18· ·if we identify them at the very start.

19· · · · · · · ·And the primary source of information

20· ·will be Exhibit No. 8025, and that is tab 50, if

21· ·you have got a binder up there.

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that is my notes.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if you could identify what

·1· ·these are and how they were created?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·These notes I believe I started on

·3· ·the following Monday -- is there a date on there?

·4· ·Yeah, July 10th it looks like, or I might have

·5· ·started -- anyway, they are -- it took me four days

·6· ·to do my notes after the event.· To be honest with

·7· ·you, it was just one big blob.· One of the things

·8· ·that I did that really helped was I assigned a

·9· ·scribe, and you have the scribe notes.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, and we'll get to that in a

11· ·second, but let's stay on track here.

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, okay, I'm sorry, and this is

13· ·my accounting through using the scribe notes and

14· ·using the Panda system, actually re-listening to

15· ·the call and either expanding or not putting things

16· ·in that I didn't deem important, you know, if they

17· ·were just things that had to get done.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the source of the information

19· ·that we have here came from the scribe notes, as

20· ·you had assigned Natalie Quinn to be your scribe?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And she is now a full-time fire

23· ·fighter?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·She was not at the time?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·She was a volunteer?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then also listening to the

·5· ·actual transmissions that took place during the

·6· ·call?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right, and between those

·8· ·two things would jog my memory to be able to create

·9· ·this document.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and we'll just go to the

11· ·scribe notes.· They are Exhibit No. 6336, and they

12· ·are at tab 16.

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, those are the scribe notes.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you had appointed her to act

15· ·as your scribe as these events unfolded?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And essentially, it appears, if

18· ·you read them, she would have been beside you

19· ·throughout this event?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you were not in a position to

22· ·take notes yourself?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, and you see --

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that is why you used her?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right, yeah, and you will

·1· ·see even when we get into these notes, that that

·2· ·first page, she couldn't even keep up with how

·3· ·fast-paced it was going.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then the last source of

·5· ·information that I think we'll refer to on a fairly

·6· ·frequent basis is Exhibit No. 3743, and they are at

·7· ·tab 74.

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· I take it,

·9· ·Mr. Wallace, the scribe notes, Exhibit No. 6336,

10· ·that is just the front page there?

11· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Oh, yes.· Oh, yes, there

12· ·is --

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Quite a few.· How

14· ·many pages in total, do you know?

15· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· The scribe notes?

16· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· 57.

17· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· 57?· Thank you.

18· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, they go from the first --

20· ·well, 1954 to 2010.· And those notes are the notes

21· ·of Natalie Bray?· Do you know who Natalie Bray is?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And who is she?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·She had responsibility for taking

25· ·the minutes, minutes, notes, at the Emergency

·1· ·Control meetings, documentation, I guess.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you attended most, if not all,

·3· ·of the Community Control Group meetings?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And your scribe attended with you

·6· ·on some occasions?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·On most of them, I believe, yes.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But in addition to her notes, we

·9· ·also have this version of recording?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

12· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And I am sure we'll

13· ·hear this later, but the notekeeping function for

14· ·the other organizations like OPP, UCRT and Task

15· ·Force 3, HUSAR, did they have a scribe as well

16· ·accompanying that Task Force leader?

17· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The OPP inspector, he

18· ·did.· I don't believe the HUSAR did, although I did

19· ·see Mr. McCallion typing on the computer.· I think

20· ·he was kind of keeping some of the actions that

21· ·were taking place.· I don't think they had the

22· ·detail potentially that --

23· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· That you did.

24· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- that we did, or we had

25· ·the benefit of the Panda.

·1· · · · · · · ·And the OPP officers, well, I guess

·2· ·that is drilled in their heads quite a bit for

·3· ·notetaking.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Sure.· And in

·5· ·preparing your notes on the 10th of July, did you

·6· ·have access to those other materials, the OPP

·7· ·notes?

·8· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I still haven't seen

·9· ·those, so no.

10· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Just straight on

11· ·your own?

12· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, just the scribe

13· ·notes and the Panda and that was it.

14· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· You didn't refer to

15· ·other materials?

16· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct.

17· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· And, Commissioner, I

18· ·wasn't implying that the Chief used these, Natalie

19· ·Bray's notes at all.· It is just that I found them

20· ·very helpful in filling in some blanks, and I

21· ·intend to refer to them as well in the course of my

22· ·examination.

23· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right.

24· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That is the only reason I

·1· ·mentioned them.

·2· · · · · · · ·Now, so if you could get yourself set

·3· ·up in front of tab 50, your notes.· And I intend to

·4· ·ask you a number of questions, and if you are able

·5· ·to, I would like you to explain things as opposed

·6· ·to just simply reading back the notes, if that is

·7· ·possible for you, okay.

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, sure.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So we can see from this that you

10· ·responded, I gather that is when you became aware

11· ·of the call and you started to move forward getting

12· ·there?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·14:23:49, yes, I was at home when

14· ·the call came in, the page came in.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you got on scene at 2:30:24,

16· ·or 14:30:24?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, you indicate there:

19· · · · · · · · · "The Incident Commander gave me a

20· · · · · · · ·quick update."

21· · · · · · · ·Who was the Incident Commander at the

22· ·time?· Who was the person that --

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was Captain Dave George.· He

24· ·was on shift that day, so it was his responsibility

25· ·at that point.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, when you responded, when you

·2· ·first got there, using the laser pointer and if you

·3· ·could use the big picture, which I misidentified as

·4· ·Exhibit No. 2114 when in fact it is Exhibit No.

·5· ·2115, can you just show for us where it was that

·6· ·you actually responded to?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right to there.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so you are indicating on the

·9· ·east side --

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·South I believe that is.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·South of the --

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·South of the --

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·South of Foodland?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I understand that there is

16· ·some references in your notes to sides of the

17· ·buildings being alpha, delta, charlie -- alpha,

18· ·bravo, charlie, delta.· So could you tell us where

19· ·the alpha is?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, because we were dealing

21· ·with the -- usually, you use the front entrance as

22· ·your alpha side.· This would be bravo along this

23· ·side --

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so hold on.· So the alpha

25· ·side then is the south-facing side?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And then this would be -- well,

·4· ·this whole side, I guess, but this would be the

·5· ·bravo side.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That would be the west-facing

·7· ·side?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The west side.· The north side

·9· ·would be the charlie side, and the east side would

10· ·be the delta side.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is just a way of -- you could

13· ·use these north, east, south, east, west, but you

14· ·don't necessarily know the direction on all of the

15· ·buildings what is north and south, and this is just

16· ·easier for the fire fighters to track.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So what -- when you got there,

18· ·what did you see?· What was going on?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That isn't my vehicle there, but

20· ·that is pretty much exactly where I parked behind

21· ·the pumper.

22· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Where, sorry?

23· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Where is that button?· It

24· ·may be, but I'm pretty sure that is mine.· I think

25· ·it was moved and was being used.· But that is

·1· ·probably exactly where I parked, just off to the

·2· ·side so I'm out of the way of the pumper.· I could

·3· ·see Captain George up probably about in this area.

·4· ·There was people milling around in this area.

·5· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Meaning in the parking area?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· Probably in this area and

·8· ·this area I believe there was a few fire fighters

·9· ·already at the front.· There might have even been

10· ·still a few people at the front door.

11· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Chief, would you

12· ·mind, could you just back your chair up a bit?

13· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh, I'm sorry.

14· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· You are right in the

15· ·middle of the picture, and I can't see.

16· · · · · · · ·Okay, that is just great.· Thank you.

17· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, so did you miss

18· ·anything?

19· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· No, no, no.

20· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay, so actually when I

21· ·got on the scene, I assumed command.· The injuries

22· ·or the people that were injured, they were already

23· ·gone.· I didn't see anybody that was injured at

24· ·that time.

25· · · · · · · ·I believe walking up along the side of

·1· ·the pumper to get to Dave, I spotted some blood in

·2· ·this area that was on the sidewalk from somebody.

·3· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So this would be on the south

·5· ·side, the south side of the -- the south extremity

·6· ·of the alpha side of the building?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, it was probably very close.

·8· ·There is a stairwell that comes down here.· It was

·9· ·probably very close to that area at the bottom of

10· ·the stairwell, so I would assume it was somebody

11· ·that was evacuated or that got out of the building.

12· ·All of the injured folks were gone when I got

13· ·there.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So other than the blood that you

15· ·saw there, you didn't see any signs of any injured

16· ·person?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct, yeah, yeah, they

18· ·were all gone, and I believe I was on scene at

19· ·14:30, so that is, what, six, seven minutes and all

20· ·those folks are gone already, so they were already

21· ·evacuated.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you see any EMS vehicles?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, they were gone as well, so the

24· ·transport has already taken place.

25· · · · · · · ·So at that point, I received an update.

·1· ·I'm not probably too far behind David George when

·2· ·he got on the scene where he ended up parking the

·3· ·pumper, so I was probably a few minutes behind

·4· ·them.· He already had a couple of fire fighters

·5· ·working on getting the utilities shut off, and this

·6· ·is back to on Incident Command obviously he would

·7· ·have looked in the front door or tried to find from

·8· ·witnesses on what took place.

·9· · · · · · · ·And then of course he said, well, we

10· ·have got a collapse.· He told me roughly what the

11· ·area was.· I could see a little bit in through the

12· ·doors.· And then he informed that -- and I could

13· ·hear this, some of this information on the radio

14· ·prior to, that he has started getting the utilities

15· ·shut off because there was wires running down and

16· ·the gas is still on in the building and --

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·To your understanding, up to the

18· ·point that you arrived on scene, had any Elliot

19· ·Lake Fire personnel gone in the front doors?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And you arrived

22· ·there in civies?· I mean, you are not wearing

23· ·your --

24· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct.

25· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And do you always

·1· ·have that communications device with you, the

·2· ·walkie-talkie or --

·3· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, I do, and actually,

·4· ·you can -- you get to know your people very well,

·5· ·and when the page came through, I knew it was

·6· ·something serious.· I actually have two radios. I

·7· ·scooped -- I have a charger at home.· I grabbed

·8· ·both of those and my cell phone.· I took the extra

·9· ·minute to gather what I knew I would need, and I

10· ·carry bunker gear in the back of my car.

11· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Oh, I see.

12· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So then I have to dress

13· ·and get up there as well.

14· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And you didn't have

15· ·to go to the station?

16· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, that's right.· I have

17· ·a set in the station, and I have a set in the car.

18· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So when you got there, there is no

20· ·signs of any injured personnel and no Elliot Lake

21· ·Fire has entered the front of the building?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And he, that is, Captain George,

24· ·has told you that he has dispatched people to deal

25· ·with the utilities?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, he had fire fighters working

·2· ·on that particular -- I believe on the hydro.· He

·3· ·may have gone in and looked at the inside. I

·4· ·really don't know.· He didn't say.· He just

·5· ·informed me of what he had, so --

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, would the people dealing with

·7· ·the utilities, would they have to enter the

·8· ·building?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·There is a -- right in this

10· ·location, the majority of the utilities are in this

11· ·area.· This is where pretty much all of the main

12· ·services come into the building.· There is the --

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So that is the northeast corner of

14· ·the building?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, charlie delta side, or yeah,

16· ·northeast corner.· There is a -- and we actually

17· ·have a lockbox.· Through working with the owners

18· ·prior, it was one of the things that were

19· ·identified in the hotel retrofit which permitted us

20· ·a lockbox access to that room which housed all of

21· ·the sprinkler system, and I believe the main water

22· ·for the building came in there, our Siamese

23· ·connection was there which is our connection that

24· ·we would hook up to to boost the pressure on the

25· ·sprinkler system and/or the stand pipe system in

·1· ·the tower, in the hotel.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What could you hear when you got

·3· ·there?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was noisy.· And right in that

·5· ·collapse area is one of the fire bells that is on

·6· ·the wall, which is if you are just dealing with the

·7· ·area of the collapse, that would be on the east

·8· ·wall, about the middle of that span.· And for some

·9· ·reason, that one seemed to even be louder that day,

10· ·which was making it very difficult to hear.

11· · · · · · · ·There was water -- the main feed

12· ·probably in about this location right here, the

13· ·main feed for the tower, which I believe was either

14· ·a three-inch or a four-inch pipe, was sheared off

15· ·and it was fully just flowing water in onto the

16· ·pile.· Of course, there was all kinds of hydro

17· ·wires streaming across the pile.

18· · · · · · · ·There was no dust at that point, but

19· ·that fire alarm bell was a real annoyance for us.

20· ·It was making it very difficult to communicate.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So what was your initial actions

22· ·once you have been briefed?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe at that point I had -- I

24· ·knew of different locations of some of the --

25· ·because of working with them on their hotel fire

·1· ·safety plan, I had a pretty good idea of where all

·2· ·the utilities were.· There was actually gas meters

·3· ·in the front corner which I believe you heard a

·4· ·little bit about yesterday.· They were the main gas

·5· ·meters.· There was also I believe some in the back

·6· ·on the north side that had to be shut off as well.

·7· · · · · · · ·So I think at that point, and we would

·8· ·have to look to get the exact time, but I did

·9· ·dispatch I believe somebody to the back to shut the

10· ·gas off.· I believe it was Dan Kluke, I could be

11· ·wrong, a fire fighter.· There would be two of them

12· ·anyway.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At 2:45 p.m. Mr. Ewald arrives on

14· ·scene?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you asked him to do a quick

17· ·assessment.· What were you expecting him to tell

18· ·you?· I don't mean the result, but what was the

19· ·reason you asked him for that?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Part of the reason is in the

21· ·particular time and the activity that was happening

22· ·and how quickly it was happening, and I know

23· ·Mr. Ewald had some pretty good experience with

24· ·steel and precast concrete, I wanted -- essentially

25· ·I was more or less using him as my 360 to give me a

·1· ·building assessment on the hazards that we would be

·2· ·facing.· Part of that -- but obviously, I can't get

·3· ·him in until I get the hydro off and the gas off,

·4· ·and we would do a primary sweep of the structure,

·5· ·the mall.

·6· · · · · · · ·He went in with the -- when we finally

·7· ·got I believe it was John Thomas and William

·8· ·Elliott up on the food court side.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· How would Mr. Ewald

10· ·have known to come?

11· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure.· It seemed

12· ·this thing spread like wildfire very quickly.

13· ·Apparently, it went global within 20 minutes

14· ·through all of the social media.

15· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· But it wasn't part

16· ·of your protocol or your plan --

17· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct.

18· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· -- or you calling

19· ·him directly?

20· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, no.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· It may have been a

22· ·coincidence, but he was there?

23· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Exactly.

24· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right.

25· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At this stage, you have just

·2· ·arrived and you are just assembling information; is

·3· ·that fair?· Or do you actually or do you have a

·4· ·plan at this stage?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·You are still assembling.· You are

·6· ·still gathering as much information as you can.

·7· ·You are still setting up.· I mean, there still had

·8· ·to be -- we had to get a RIT put in place.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What is that?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·A RIT is a Rapid Intervention

11· ·Team, which would be another two fire fighters that

12· ·would be designated to be the two guys if we ran

13· ·into trouble and we ended up with fire fighters

14· ·down, that they would be the team that would go in.

15· ·Accountability had to be set up as well, so that

16· ·had to take place.

17· · · · · · · ·Fire fighters were still streaming in

18· ·and police officers were still feeding me

19· ·information, depending on who was there.· So there

20· ·was quite a bit of activity.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· The next point that I

22· ·wanted to take you to is at 14:49:

23· · · · · · · · · "Call dispatched to activate the

24· · · · · · · ·Emergency Control Group".

25· · · · · · · ·You are a member of the Emergency

·1· ·Control Group?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that is by virtue of the fact

·4· ·that you are the Chief of the Fire Service?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And why did you -- at this stage,

·7· ·why did you ask for that?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I knew it was going to be an

·9· ·event that needed to activate the group.· It is not

10· ·your typical call.· I knew it was going to be

11· ·hours, and I knew I was going to need their help.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at this -- bearing in mind you

13· ·have only been there less than 20 minutes or a

14· ·little over -- yeah, 20 minutes.· You aren't -- do

15· ·you have enough information to see that this is

16· ·going to result in a declaration of emergency, or

17· ·is this really just sort of being cautious and

18· ·forward-thinking?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·To remember exactly when this

20· ·stuff, when you started gaining this information, I

21· ·would have to know if I was in the building or not,

22· ·going through these notes, yet.· I did send

23· ·Mr. Ewald and he gave me the update.· When I got my

24· ·first opportunity where I had a minute, I was able

25· ·to get up --

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You hadn't -- I can tell you you

·2· ·had not entered the building at this stage.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay, so yeah, I'm kind of running

·4· ·on the basis of what he is telling me.· I can see

·5· ·in the front door, but I can't see beyond that

·6· ·front door other than that there is wires hanging.

·7· · · · · · · ·So you are still gathering information.

·8· ·Part of that information, there was still I believe

·9· ·the owner of Foodland, Pierre or Mr. Vaillancourt

10· ·was there, so he was able to supply some of the

11· ·information on what happened.

12· · · · · · · ·Part of the reason that you are asking

13· ·these questions or trying to gather as much

14· ·information as you can is because you are trying

15· ·to -- say as a medical call, you want to know what

16· ·the mechanism of injury is so you know how best to

17· ·treat that person.· Well, this is kind of the same

18· ·thing.· The more information you have, okay, what

19· ·happened, well, you want to know, was it an

20· ·explosion; was it overweight that caused the

21· ·collapse.· If it is an explosion, what type of

22· ·explosion?· Was it a gas explosion?· So you know on

23· ·how you are going to move forward.· If it wasn't a

24· ·gas explosion, well, maybe it was a bomb.· If it

25· ·was a bomb, maybe there is another bomb.· So you

·1· ·are trying to decipher and gather all of this

·2· ·information, and you are pulling it out of any

·3· ·resource that you can get.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What was the information that you

·5· ·were getting on this call as to why this thing

·6· ·collapsed?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No real -- I knew it was not an

·8· ·explosion, so that eliminated gas and eliminated

·9· ·terrorism or anything like that.· I didn't really

10· ·get anything on the why.· Myself, I just assumed it

11· ·was overloaded so that there was just too much

12· ·weight or something like that and so on.· I didn't

13· ·spend a lot of time on that.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you rule out explosion

15· ·simply based on the fact that there was no flames?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, an explosion would be a big,

17· ·big noise.· Like people would know the boom.· And

18· ·there was no indication of something, an explosion

19· ·that would do that much damage; it would have taken

20· ·out all the windows probably a quarter mile

21· ·downtown, and I didn't have any of that

22· ·information.

23· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· No smell?

24· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No smell on that, no.· So

25· ·there was dust smell.

·1· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Yes, yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, exactly.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· But no cordite

·4· ·smell?

·5· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.

·6· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Mr. Wallace, it is a

·7· ·quarter to 1:00.· Now would be perhaps a good time

·8· ·to break for lunch.

·9· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Sure.

10· · · · · · · ·-- RECESSED AT 12:45 P.M.

11· · · · · · · ·-- RESUMED AT 2:00 P.M.

12· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Good afternoon,

13· ·everybody.

14· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Good afternoon,

15· ·Mr. Commissioner.

16· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Go ahead,

17· ·Mr. Wallace.

18· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.

20· · · · · · · ·Chief, we left off this morning and you

21· ·had instructed your dispatcher to activate the

22· ·Community Control Group, and you have a note in

23· ·your -- a notation, rather, that at 14:57 the gas

24· ·broke the main shutoff valve.· Can you just explain

25· ·that situation, please?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, it -- actually, this goes

·2· ·back to training again.· We have a very good

·3· ·working relationship with Union Gas, and it was

·4· ·actually probably about four weeks to six weeks

·5· ·prior to this event that we had Union Gas in and

·6· ·did training in our shop.

·7· · · · · · · ·And a part of that training was, you

·8· ·know, identification.· And where it comes key on

·9· ·this one, our guys were trying to shut it off.

10· ·Part of that training was to recognize a seized

11· ·valve, and of course, you are strong enough that

12· ·you can twist that valve and snap the valve.· And

13· ·my guys, through the training, were smart enough to

14· ·know that, okay, leave it alone and wait for the

15· ·Union Gas guy.· And of course, he tried --

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Let him snap it.

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·He snapped it, that's correct,

18· ·yes.· So I have known Mark for, well, probably 20

19· ·years.· He had a knee done last year, and he was

20· ·going as fast as a Donovan Bailey down that hill to

21· ·get that shut off.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So where was the valve that he

23· ·snapped off and where did he ultimately have to go

24· ·to shut the gas off, if you want to use the laser

25· ·there?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I'm not a hundred percent sure of

·2· ·the location that he had to go.· The valve that

·3· ·snapped is the one right at the front, and it was

·4· ·about either a 1-and-a-half inch or a 2-inch line.

·5· ·It was one of the main feeds into the structure.

·6· · · · · · · ·He had to run down the hill.· Almost

·7· ·all of the utilities come in here, so I would

·8· ·assume that it is in this location.· It was

·9· ·definitely no further than this because I think, by

10· ·the records, I think he was just a little over a

11· ·minute to get it shut off.

12· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· No further than

13· ·where, Chief?· I'm sorry, I wasn't looking.

14· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It would have definitely

15· ·been in this area here by the amount of time.· I'm

16· ·thinking it was in this area probably right around

17· ·here.

18· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right, thank

19· ·you.

20· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what did you do when you

22· ·became aware of the fact that he had snapped the

23· ·valve?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I was actually facing the front of

25· ·the doors.· John Thomas was turned around because

·1· ·he was up near with Mark when it snapped.· He

·2· ·turned around and Darren Connors was just pulling

·3· ·up with the other pumper, which was to my back.· He

·4· ·got on the radio and yelled at him to stop the

·5· ·pumper where he was, which he did.

·6· · · · · · · ·Then everybody started running and

·7· ·clearing out, and we had everybody get back.· You

·8· ·really didn't have to say anything because this

·9· ·thing was just screaming when it broke.· I went

10· ·over and shut off the pumper and I went over and

11· ·shut off my car and then went over to shut the OPP,

12· ·to eliminate the ignition sources.· I was just

13· ·about to break the OPP's window in their car, and

14· ·you could hear it starting to fizzle out.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Up until this point, what have

16· ·your men done in terms of going into the building?

17· ·What have they done when they have gone inside?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At this stage?

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·They haven't been in yet, so --

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· If you look at your notes

22· ·there at 14:56, "IC [...]", who I assume is you?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] to rescue 2 (Dan) [...]",

25· ·and that is fire fighter Kluke?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] to work the pile from the

·3· · · · · · · ·north side for signs of life"?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So was he outside and you sent him

·6· ·in, or were you giving him instructions; he is

·7· ·inside and you are giving him instructions already?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is at 14:56?

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah, which is actually before the

10· ·gas valve.

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, they would have been in the

12· ·back.· Actually, they would have been in -- to

13· ·silence that alarm, they would have had to go

14· ·upstairs and to the back, through the back door,

15· ·not on the pile, though.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You had not been in at this point

17· ·either, had you?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And other than what you could see

20· ·from looking in the doors, you really didn't know

21· ·what lay ahead; is that fair?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Is this before I had my update

23· ·from Bruce Ewald or after that you are referring

24· ·to?

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, that is before you go in,

·1· ·that is what I want to know.· With your own eyes,

·2· ·that is what I am trying to get at.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, with my own eyes, all I had

·4· ·was what I could see from getting close to the

·5· ·front door and then what Bruce advised me what he

·6· ·seen when he went in.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and at the bottom of that

·8· ·page you have at approximately 15:00:

·9· · · · · · · · · "Tried contacting Bob Thorpe OFM

10· · · · · · · ·(Office of the Fire Marshal) via

11· · · · · · · ·cell phone on site to get heavy

12· · · · · · · ·rescue."

13· · · · · · · ·What was the protocol or what was the

14· ·procedure for getting heavy rescue engaged?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·What you have to do is you have to

16· ·contact I think it is called the PEOC, the

17· ·Provincial Emergency Operations Centre.· So you go

18· ·through dispatch.· They are going to advise you

19· ·that you have to declare -- your Mayor or your

20· ·group Mayor has to declare an emergency, and then

21· ·that way they can activate the HUSAR.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so I guess my question is

23· ·why did you call Bob Thorpe at this stage?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·To work the back channels.

25· ·Unfortunately, I had -- I must have double-digited

·1· ·his cell phone in my cell phone and I had the wrong

·2· ·number, so -- but the point was to get a hold of

·3· ·Bob and get him working the back channels, at least

·4· ·give him the heads-up that this is coming, so

·5· ·because I don't know how long it is going to take

·6· ·to get the emergency declared.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· What is Bob Thorpe's

·8· ·position?

·9· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· He is with the Office of

10· ·the Fire Marshal.· He is a Fire Protection Advisor,

11· ·and he is -- our department falls within his scope.

12· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you have a working relationship

14· ·with him?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what sort of things do you do

17· ·with him or what does he assist you with?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It isn't so much assisting.· He

19· ·gives me a lot of work, actually, and they drive

20· ·down through the office of the Fire Marshal any

21· ·prevention programs or public education, the

22· ·changes in the Fire Service, they flow down usually

23· ·through the advisors to the local level.

24· · · · · · · ·Also, if I have maybe Code issues or

25· ·pretty much anything related to the Fire Service, I

·1· ·can use him as an advisor.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, at 15:01 you -- it just says:

·3· · · · · · · · · "Rescue 1 (John) Par 3 instructed

·4· · · · · · · ·to enter collapse zone and look for

·5· · · · · · · ·survivors".

·6· · · · · · · ·Do you want to explain what all that

·7· ·means?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Where is that?

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That is the very bottom entry on

10· ·that page there.

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, yeah, I designated John's team

12· ·as rescue 1.· PAR 3 means that there is three in

13· ·his group.· Because I have John, my instruction

14· ·would have been through John.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·This is John Thomas?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, John Thomas.· I believe he

17· ·had William Elliott and Wayne Millett with him, two

18· ·volunteer fire fighters, to enter the structure.

19· · · · · · · ·The instruction that I gave him would

20· ·have been to him, which essentially was get in and

21· ·see if you can get a rescue.· If you have to remove

22· ·debris, remove debris, but don't touch the

23· ·structure or anything that would cause further

24· ·collapse.

25· · · · · · · ·And I think there is a radio

·1· ·communication a little bit farther down basically

·2· ·saying the same thing, and the reason why I did the

·3· ·radio communication is so that everybody could hear

·4· ·it, so hear that instruction.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if you turn to the next page,

·6· ·Ms. Kuka, you can see exactly that, that -- oh, you

·7· ·just went a little too far.

·8· · · · · · · · · "IC advised rescue 1 to be careful

·9· · · · · · · ·not to move anything that would

10· · · · · · · ·cause further collapse".

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at about 15:02 you and Bruce

13· ·Ewald entered the building.· Why don't you tell us

14· ·about what you saw, and I will show you some

15· ·photographs once you finish that.

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, that would help.· Yeah, we

17· ·entered the building.· We actually went up through

18· ·Hungry Jack's, so which would be up the stairs on

19· ·the exterior and through their back door, coming

20· ·out through their front door into the food court,

21· ·and the location out where we observed was standing

22· ·on the edge about in the middle of the food court,

23· ·probably, I don't know, 5 feet back from the hole.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and perhaps maybe if we

25· ·could look at Exhibit No. 7924 and specifically

·1· ·page 26.

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Prior to this, you know, when I

·3· ·was informed by what Bruce was, you know, giving me

·4· ·a word description of basically what he seen and

·5· ·what we were dealing with, it is still hard to

·6· ·capture that and that is why I wanted to get in.

·7· ·But part of my evaluation on what Bruce was

·8· ·advising me and from what I can see, and now we are

·9· ·talking close to a half an hour that I had been on

10· ·scene and we have had no further movement or

11· ·collapse that we could see at this point, so

12· ·your -- things seemed to be fairly stable.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So this, does this photograph

14· ·indicate in part the route that you would have

15· ·travelled to get to the food court?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, you were on the second

18· ·floor, were you not?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah, and that is -- we have had

21· ·that described for us that to the left of that

22· ·yellow post is the food court?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You came in from the

25· ·eastern side?· You did not come in --

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, we went in through the store

·2· ·right behind that wall.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Behind what wall?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It would be I believe there,

·5· ·behind this wall.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·So if you look on this, we went up

·8· ·the stairwell, the exterior stairwell up to the

·9· ·first level, and then we basically went right

10· ·through the store right beside this, the escalator

11· ·and the stairs that you are seeing here.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And I ended up standing a little

14· ·bit further, right about where the pointer is, I

15· ·guess, to get a good visual.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we could have a look at

17· ·then, please, Exhibit No. 7998.

18· · · · · · · ·Hold on.· Sorry, Exhibit No. 7798.

19· ·Does that represent something like what you were

20· ·looking at?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is almost exactly where I was

22· ·standing when I viewed the collapse area.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what hazards can you

24· ·point out there for us that you were seeing and

25· ·making notes of?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, a lot.· I mean, the degree

·2· ·of the angle that the slab is on is about 45

·3· ·degrees.· You have got all the blocks on top, other

·4· ·material, and it is all directly leaning towards

·5· ·the pile.

·6· · · · · · · ·Later, but not necessarily right at

·7· ·this point, and in this picture you really have a

·8· ·difficult time seeing it, but, Mr. Commissioner,

·9· ·these slabs, they broke off and became totally

10· ·vertical.· So they are down to the floor, which are

11· ·actually somewhat supporting this material.· The

12· ·access hole that the guys came through was about

13· ·right here.· It was probably about 5 feet tall.

14· ·You had to bend down to get under it to gain access

15· ·to the pile.

16· · · · · · · ·We have got this beam here that is

17· ·obviously hanging.· What you can't see in this

18· ·picture is you can see that the member that it is

19· ·attached to is actually pulled out towards the top,

20· ·is obviously at the same angle as the beam.

21· ·Something else you can't see here that gave me a

22· ·little bit of comfort there is it is double-beamed

23· ·at that point.· So although, you know --

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·There was an expansion joint?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I believe so, it could be.

·1· ·I didn't spend a lot of time looking at it other

·2· ·than I seen it was double-beamed, because you don't

·3· ·know if this next panel that is on the left side is

·4· ·going to fail.

·5· · · · · · · ·Part of that thinking too is that

·6· ·this -- the weight has gone off of this roof now,

·7· ·so half of the weight has gone off of that beam.

·8· ·It is still standing, but I mean, you are still

·9· ·looking at it.· There is a whole host of wires that

10· ·you could see.· There is a second beam that is down

11· ·lower that is actually hanging, along with the

12· ·vehicle that is in the pile, but this escalator

13· ·really caused concern.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Ms. Kuka, if you could show the

15· ·next picture in the series.· It is not consecutive

16· ·numbers, though.· It is Exhibit No. 7931.· And you

17· ·might get a better view on your own screen there,

18· ·but in this picture here you can -- I believe you

19· ·can see the concrete slabs that you referred to

20· ·that were not being shown in the other ones in the

21· ·previous photograph that were hanging down beyond

22· ·the edge of the escalator end?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct, and yeah, you can

24· ·see it here --

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·-- at least on mine, that they are

·2· ·straight vertical and they are supported on top of

·3· ·the slab or the material below.· I believe that is

·4· ·what stopped that thing from actually continuing to

·5· ·slide and totally come in.· Obviously, not a great

·6· ·situation.· It really scared the bejeesus out of

·7· ·me, I guess, if you could put it one way.· It was

·8· ·not a good situation.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you -- when you saw the

10· ·enormity of the pieces and the dangerousness of the

11· ·situation, did you have any idea how to deal with

12· ·this?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, what we were hoping to do

14· ·was get in there, and if there was anybody that was

15· ·accessible.· With our limited resources, as you

16· ·said, the size of the material that we had to deal

17· ·with was way beyond our capability.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you did not possess equipment

19· ·that would allow you to move these huge pieces of

20· ·concrete?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, not even close.· But we still

24· ·are able to -- unless you get in there and get over

25· ·that pile to see there could be somebody that is

·1· ·closer or accessible or even on top of the pile,

·2· ·for that matter.· So these particular -- and I

·3· ·don't know if I'm jumping ahead on you here, but

·4· ·they moved things, like you can see here, small

·5· ·stuff like material that is here, and they actually

·6· ·tried to --

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You are referring to a small

·8· ·section of concrete that is lying on top of the

·9· ·slab?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right, so and then when you

11· ·get down into these areas, if there is other small

12· ·things that aren't going to affect those moving,

13· ·they would pull and make the voids, check the

14· ·voids.· They are yelling into the holes.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Speaking of which, is the area

16· ·that we see to the right of your fire fighter's

17· ·helmet, is that the opening for a void?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·They would check that, yes.· How

19· ·big the voids are, I don't think the voids were

20· ·very large in there.· Of course, I have probably a

21· ·limited amount of -- unless you are down there and

22· ·actually getting in to see how big those are, that

23· ·testimony would be better from Darren and John.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But that is the idea, that is --

25· ·represents a void.· I'm not asking you to guess at

·1· ·how big it is.

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, exactly, anything that you

·3· ·could possibly find.· I mean, as Darren said in his

·4· ·testimony, you know, he checked inside the car. I

·5· ·mean, unless you are in there, you can't even do

·6· ·that.· He checked under the car.· I mean, there

·7· ·is -- anything that they could possibly do, and

·8· ·they eventually did pull a lot of the smaller

·9· ·debris out and piled it out by the entrance to the

10· ·food court to try and clear as much as they could

11· ·and do what they could.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You went -- at one point in time,

13· ·you did actually go on the pile; is that not

14· ·correct?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Before we closed.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Before you closed?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Right.· Because I want to show

19· ·you, if you could go, Ms. Kuka, to Exhibit No. 7924

20· ·and if we could look at page 20.

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And I am not sure if you have a

22· ·picture similar to that and I -- before we get to

23· ·that one, if you could maybe just go back for a

24· ·minute.

25· · · · · · · ·Because it was kind of the -- actually,

·1· ·I think you can -- yeah, I'm not sure if it is this

·2· ·one, but if you go to the next picture, I could

·3· ·probably show you where I'm going with this.· The

·4· ·one that was kind of later on when we ended up

·5· ·pulling out was one was Ken's concern with the beam

·6· ·and the helicopter.

·7· · · · · · · ·But I'm thinking it is this one up

·8· ·here.· When I went in, when I went in finally, at

·9· ·Ken's request, and this is before we pulled the

10· ·guys out to do the camera, when I went in, I got

11· ·about this far and I seen four, I believe four or

12· ·five fire fighters on each side of this thing

13· ·trying to manually --

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What you have got the pointer on

15· ·is a slab of concrete?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Not a full panel, but a

18· ·significant size?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Pretty darn close.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah.

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And you know, they are trying to

22· ·manually move this.· The tools are virtually

23· ·useless.· And I was really afraid that that was

24· ·going to cascade down and slide into the vertical

25· ·material that was hanging off of the escalator.

·1· ·And once a chunk of that size got going, if there

·2· ·is legs in the way, it is going to cut them right

·3· ·off.· And that was when I pulled everybody out of

·4· ·there.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, what this picture shows,

·6· ·Chief, is it shows the view a person would have who

·7· ·is coming from the ground floor doors and is

·8· ·walking from the doors towards the north end or

·9· ·towards the hotel, and because that is -- as you

10· ·have pointed out, that is the rubble pile is in the

11· ·background of the picture.· When you went in and

12· ·when you went on the pile, did you walk to the

13· ·right of the escalator or to the left of the

14· ·escalator?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·To the right.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·To the right.

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·This picture.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you, in order to get

19· ·access to the pile, did you walk in a straight

20· ·line, as we can see from the foreground to the

21· ·background, or did you do a loop around that

22· ·hanging concrete that you can see?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, you mean -- to this point you

24· ·could go straight in.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And this material was the stuff

·2· ·that my guys removed.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So in order for you or anybody to

·4· ·go from the front of the building into the rubble

·5· ·pile, from a south to north direction, you would of

·6· ·necessity then have to walk under the beam that is

·7· ·supporting the concrete that is in turn resting on

·8· ·the escalator?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And if I could also show

11· ·you the next photograph in that exhibit, number 21,

12· ·please.· This is a view, just for your purposes,

13· ·Chief, this is the view that you would see if you

14· ·came in the front doors again to the mall and you

15· ·were looking towards the rubble pile but to the

16· ·left of the escalators or to the left of the kiosk

17· ·that was on the ground floor.

18· · · · · · · ·It certainly appears to be very, very

19· ·difficult and very, very precarious to take that

20· ·route.· Did you see that?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I don't remember a whole lot

22· ·about this side other than it was impassable.· So

23· ·to be honest with you, I probably looked and as

24· ·fast as it took to stick your head around the

25· ·corner and then kept going, so it is -- but yeah,

·1· ·that looks like about what it would be.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So when you saw, you actually then

·3· ·saw the task that you faced and you saw with your

·4· ·own eyes the state of affairs and you are not

·5· ·getting information from people, what was your plan

·6· ·or what was your instructions at that stage?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, when the guys were on the

·8· ·pile, there was, like I said, a lot of the small

·9· ·stuff to be moved.· Essentially, they were still

10· ·moving and trying to create voids.· I believe they

11· ·had some success in moving some of the smaller

12· ·pieces, and when I say "smaller pieces", the stuff

13· ·on top, probably 4 by 4 or 4 by 5, something that

14· ·they might be able to twist or move around just on

15· ·top of the pile that might create another cavity or

16· ·another hole that they could access.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So really what you are just trying

18· ·to do is just to search to see if you could see

19· ·anybody or hear anybody?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, your notes record at 15:04

22· ·you and Mr. Ewald go back to the command at the

23· ·front entrance, and at approximately the exact same

24· ·time --

25· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Can you just flip

·1· ·over, please?· Thank you.

·2· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Oh, sorry.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Go ahead.

·4· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So I'm referring to the first

·6· ·notation at approximately 15:04.

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You and Mr. Ewald have left the

·9· ·building and returned to the outside?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It then says that:

12· · · · · · · · · "Rescue 1 (William) [...]"

13· · · · · · · ·And that would be William Elliott?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Rescue 1, yeah, if it was William,

15· ·that is William Elliott.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] reports that they have

17· · · · · · · ·found one person trapped in a void."

18· · · · · · · ·What -- I gather that you were actually

19· ·outside the building and you are getting this as a

20· ·transmission?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, what exactly did he say?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Pretty much that is about it that

24· ·I can recall, that they had a person trapped.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did he give you any details as to

·1· ·what the state of the person was?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't think on that

·3· ·communication he did.· I would really have to

·4· ·listen to it to get you that detail.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, but you don't recall?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, no, there is -- yeah.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you recall giving any

·8· ·instructions as a result of hearing that?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·There was -- and I don't know if

10· ·it is at this time.· There was -- when it came to

11· ·the first person, I know we ended up eventually

12· ·sending in the emergency or the paramedics in to

13· ·verify that the person was deceased.· They might

14· ·have told me that, you know, they had the access to

15· ·two limbs, an arm and a leg, that that's a

16· ·possibility that that could have happened.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did he tell you where it was?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know if he told me then,

19· ·but eventually, I would have known where it was or,

20· ·sorry, where that person was.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can we more or less assume that

22· ·given the fact that there is no mention in your

23· ·notes as to the person's location that it wasn't

24· ·mentioned at that time?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It may not have been, yeah, or it

·1· ·may have been.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, at 15:06 it simply says:

·3· · · · · · · · · "Accountability advises all

·4· · · · · · · ·firefighters are accounted for."

·5· · · · · · · ·Was this one of these situations where

·6· ·you have told them to do a head count or is this --

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yes, it was quite a bit back.

·8· ·So if you go back somewhere in the notes, and I

·9· ·don't know if you need it, but I'm thinking it took

10· ·close to 10 or -- 10 minutes to do an

11· ·accountability, which is an extra long time to do

12· ·that, but the radio was being used substantially

13· ·and he was trying to get in whenever he could.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Just, Commissioner, just for the

15· ·purposes of the record, the actual time that the

16· ·PAR was requested was 14:51, so it was almost 15

17· ·minutes from the time it was requested until the

18· ·time they got an answer.

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That would be about right, yeah.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At the point in time when you have

21· ·seen the magnitude of the problem in terms of

22· ·moving the core slabs, the concrete, did it appear

23· ·to you -- well, was there any consideration given

24· ·at that time that, listen, if we are going to be

25· ·moving anything, we are going to need a crane?· Was

·1· ·there any thought given at that point in time?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that was on account of what?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Never even thought of it, period,

·5· ·yeah.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, it is not something, a

·8· ·tool that we use ever.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is there even a crane -- is there

10· ·even a crane local here if --

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe there is what they call

12· ·a boom truck, but to lift the type of slabs and the

13· ·weight that is here, there is nothing locally.· The

14· ·next closest would be Sault Ste. Marie or Sudbury,

15· ·I believe.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So a boom truck wouldn't do the --

17· ·wouldn't be a suitable piece?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, it wouldn't even have the

19· ·reach to make the access.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, at 15:08 you have got a

21· ·request in:

22· · · · · · · · · "IC radioed base to contact OFM

23· · · · · · · ·for Heavy Rescue."

24· · · · · · · ·Is this still part and parcel of the

25· ·attempts to reach Bob Thorpe?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is going the other avenue to

·2· ·get dispatch to work their side as well, so to

·3· ·follow through and call the PEOC and get it going.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So when you say OFM, you are

·5· ·actually, are you talking about contacting the Fire

·6· ·Marshals Office or the Provincial Emergency

·7· ·Operations Centre?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, it is -- yeah, we have a

·9· ·number that we call and it is the same number for

10· ·if we want to request a fire investigation, they

11· ·all run through the same number.· So there would be

12· ·somebody there that takes that call, and then he is

13· ·going to have a series of questions that he is

14· ·going to want answered.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at 15:21 it indicates that:

16· · · · · · · · · "Blind River advises they are in

17· · · · · · · ·Elliot Lake."

18· · · · · · · ·How did that come about and what is the

19· ·significance of that?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Somewhere prior to that, probably

21· ·about -- they are about 30 to 40 minutes away from

22· ·us.· I activated Mutual Aid and asked them to send

23· ·staff to staff our hall.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And we heard about the Mutual Aid

25· ·Program with Mr. Hefkey a couple of weeks ago, and

·1· ·this is just simply part of that program?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, it is the sharing of

·3· ·resources and it is a reciprocal agreement.· There

·4· ·is no money that exchanges hands.· Whoever needs

·5· ·the help, when they need the help, we go.· So it

·6· ·usually is, though, basically for fire.· This is --

·7· ·to be honest with you, I don't know if it really

·8· ·fits, but I know if I call, they are coming, and if

·9· ·they call me, I'm going.· So we'll worry about if

10· ·we should be going later.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the purpose of getting them

12· ·there was not to actually come and put out a fire,

13· ·but rather be there in the event a fire happens

14· ·because your folks are all busy with this issue?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, at 15:28 you will see that:

17· · · · · · · · · "Search 1 [...]" --

18· · · · · · · ·And that is the Darren Connors?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And he:

21· · · · · · · · · "[...] reports communication with

22· · · · · · · ·victim.· Reports mumble

23· · · · · · · ·communication"?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Were you able to tell if this is

·1· ·the same individual or a different one than William

·2· ·Elliott has brought to your attention a short while

·3· ·earlier?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I knew it was a different

·5· ·individual.· It was in a different location.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did Darren tell you

·7· ·where he was?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Either he told me or either we had

·9· ·a face-to-face or -- I don't think we had a

10· ·face-to-face with Darren, but he would have told me

11· ·roughly where he was.· Again, to get that detail,

12· ·we would have to go back to the actual call, and

13· ·here this would be the highlight of what I put in

14· ·my notes.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But the important thing was it was

16· ·clear to you that we are talking about two

17· ·different people?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, yes, yes, absolutely.· And I

19· ·am not sure if we have -- at this stage if I have

20· ·sent the EMS in, which really clarified it was

21· ·another individual.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, I'm not sure, of what?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At this point, did I have the EMS

24· ·go in yet?

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·No, they don't go in until --

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- about 4:30 in the afternoon, so

·3· ·it is about an hour earlier -- or later, rather.

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, we know we have -- at this

·5· ·point we know we have one victim because they are

·6· ·cold to the touch and no pulse.· Even considering

·7· ·the fact that the limb might be pinched off and you

·8· ·won't get a pulse, but they were pretty sure that

·9· ·the individual was gone.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, when you are saying

11· ·that, are you talking about the information you got

12· ·back when the EMS people went in, or was this part

13· ·of the information that William Elliott gave you

14· ·when he said he found somebody or to --

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't think it was William. I

16· ·know somewhere in there I had a face-to-face with

17· ·John Thomas, and to be honest with you, I can't

18· ·really remember if it was on the first victim or

19· ·the second victim.· But I know we had information

20· ·that was passed, and I think part of the reason I

21· ·think John was a little concerned maybe that

22· ·because it was on the radio and people tend to

23· ·listen to those things and I don't think he really

24· ·knew if we should be transmitting that on the

25· ·radio.

·1· · · · · · · ·So and I don't think it is in my notes

·2· ·there, but I'll try and get in there when I think

·3· ·it fits.· The problem was there is so many things

·4· ·that happened here.· A lot of these things, there

·5· ·was four or five things that were done in a minute

·6· ·and you are only --

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Oh, for sure.

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·-- you are only getting the

·9· ·Reader's Digest version, I guess, and to remember

10· ·everything.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, you did make contact with

12· ·Mr. Thorpe, and that is at 15:36, if you look just

13· ·towards the bottom of the page there?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And why don't you just tell us

16· ·about that?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Essentially, it was -- thank

18· ·you -- I advised them of what we had.· He is

19· ·going -- he had a specific question, you know, that

20· ·he is asking.· They have a kind of a checklist they

21· ·go down through, was there an explosion, all of

22· ·those things.· I answered all his questions as best

23· ·I could, and he was -- assured me that he will be

24· ·working those back channels to make sure that

25· ·things get moving.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you know anything about HUSAR

·2· ·prior to making this call?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I knew about HUSAR on a couple of

·4· ·fronts.· I believe maybe through the -- some of the

·5· ·training.· It could have been at the Ontario

·6· ·Association of Fire Chiefs there is things, but

·7· ·there was -- if I remember correctly, there was a

·8· ·communique that came out from the Fire Marshal

·9· ·advising how you activate HUSAR.

10· · · · · · · ·So I knew there was a HUSAR team.

11· ·Exactly what they can do I do not know or did not

12· ·know.· And UCRT I did not know about.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you didn't know that UCRT

14· ·existed; is that fair?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is exactly it, yes.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But you knew that HUSAR existed

17· ·but you didn't know the capabilities of it?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You didn't know the

20· ·capabilities, but you must have known that they did

21· ·something with respect to Urban Search and Rescue?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I knew they were the experts

23· ·on rescue and on this particular type of thing.

24· · · · · · · ·Since we are on the topic, when we roll

25· ·forward 12 hours or 14 hours ahead and HUSAR is on

·1· ·the scene and I went through the Incident Action

·2· ·Plan or I was advised by Mr. Neadles on how they

·3· ·were going to move forward, quite frankly, I was

·4· ·very disappointed, and not disappointed in those

·5· ·individuals.· I mean, I guess to a certain extent

·6· ·because my knowledge was not -- I didn't know

·7· ·exactly what they would do, but when they went

·8· ·through it, it made perfect sense.

·9· · · · · · · ·And when I say that, I guess I'm no

10· ·different than anybody else.· I had in the back of

11· ·my mind that this team is coming in.· These are the

12· ·super guys and they are going to get in there and

13· ·we are going to get things done.· And in fact, what

14· ·you find out is they have policies and procedures

15· ·that they have to follow.· They have set

16· ·procedures.· They have to work from good ground to

17· ·bad ground to protect their workers.· And when they

18· ·went through it all, it made absolutely perfect

19· ·sense.· But to be honest with you, though, it was a

20· ·bit of a disappointment, but fully understandable.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at 15:41 you have instructed

22· ·your dispatcher to call the Provincial Operations

23· ·Centre and request the HUSAR activation?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Again, yes, I was working both

25· ·channels as much as I could.· We were I won't say

·1· ·panicked, but you know, sometimes when things get

·2· ·busy, even our dispatch gets busy.· I mean, part of

·3· ·the protocols for us is that that individual, one,

·4· ·he is monitoring communications and he is answering

·5· ·us and answering our request to call for hydro,

·6· ·call for gas, for the utilities, call Public Works

·7· ·for the water.· He has to activate the Emergency

·8· ·Control Group, so there is a fan-out list that he

·9· ·has to make those phone calls.· So that individual

10· ·is probably just as busy or even just as busy as we

11· ·are, and I wanted to make sure that that was

12· ·happening as quick as we could.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at some point you have been

14· ·advised that in order to activate the HUSAR, there

15· ·was going to have to be a declaration of an

16· ·emergency?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But you have been advised that

19· ·they were moving on it, that is, the Fire Marshals

20· ·Office was moving on it even prior to the

21· ·declaration?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, I want to ask you

24· ·about a conversation that you had at 16:09, and

25· ·that would be the next page.· You see:

·1· · · · · · · · · "Approx 16:09 Spoke to OPP on the

·2· · · · · · · ·call [...]"?

·3· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Who were you speaking to and what

·6· ·was the coordination all about?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I have no idea.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I assume, and correct me if I'm

·9· ·wrong, that this would be local OPP?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I really don't know who that

11· ·person would have been.· I don't remember speaking

12· ·to Inspector Jollymore, but it could have been.

13· ·But if it was updating and coordinating efforts,

14· ·that would be scene security and talking about

15· ·those issues I would think.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It is now about 10 after 4:00.· Do

17· ·you have a command post?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, we are still out front.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But are you -- is there -- are you

20· ·writing on a board on the side of a truck, or are

21· ·you just standing around or --

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The board is on a stand, similar

23· ·to this.· If you are --

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Similar to the easel that we have

25· ·got the picture resting on?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And we used this spot right here

·4· ·as the command post.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Just to the left of the front

·6· ·doors?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Pretty much directly out from

·8· ·them, so this is raised a little bit.· There is a

·9· ·wall here, and then there is about three steps

10· ·down.· Part of the reason was in that location is

11· ·because, one, that is my best vantage point to see,

12· ·and the other is it is close so the guys don't have

13· ·a lot of walking to do coming in and out.· It is

14· ·shaded.· And we eventually used the old bingo hall

15· ·here, the bathrooms in there, and it was -- we used

16· ·it as our rehab.· It was a very hot day.· It was --

17· ·and when you are wearing bunker gear, even

18· ·cover-alls, you have to address those issues.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you were acting as the Incident

20· ·Commander at this stage?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And are there OPP officers around?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, there is.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what are they doing?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I end up tasking some of them, and

·1· ·I don't even know if it is in -- I ended up putting

·2· ·two in on the pile.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Uhm-hmm.

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Ken Barnes wasn't on the scene

·5· ·yet.· And looking to build in the safety, in the

·6· ·back corner of the pile, I had two of them up

·7· ·there, one facing the slide and the other one

·8· ·looking at the doors from the hotel, because those

·9· ·doors, they were actually flipping doors, frame and

10· ·everything, so they were only hung on by the

11· ·header.· So I had one officer looking at that.· It

12· ·is not a lot, but it was at least they could give a

13· ·yell if one of those blocks decided to come down.

14· · · · · · · ·The other OPP --

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Actually, I think I can show you a

16· ·photograph.· If we can look at Exhibit No. 7933,

17· ·please.· Is that what you are talking about? I

18· ·don't mean specifically that time, but is this the

19· ·idea, to have the two OPP officers there?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is pretty much about it. I

21· ·thought they were a little bit farther back for the

22· ·majority, but yes, they were in the back corner and

23· ·their job actually at that point was to keep an eye

24· ·for the guys.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So they would be sort of acting as

·1· ·Safety Officers?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Spotters.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Spotters?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recognize your

·6· ·personnel in the photograph, the fire personnel?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is Darren Connors pointing at

·8· ·the camera.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I'm not sure if that is with the

11· ·red hat and red jumpsuit, if that is Ken Barnes or

12· ·John Thomas.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And this -- you are -- the

14· ·personnel were removed from the pile between 6:00

15· ·and 6:30 that night?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I think it was close to --

17· ·when the sewer camera finally arrived, that is when

18· ·we pulled -- I pulled everybody out but the three.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And so this photograph was taken

20· ·somewhat before 6:30 obviously?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, I just wanted to ask

23· ·you at 6 -- hold on.· At 16:10 --

24· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Can we go back?

25· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Oh, sorry, yes, if we can go back

·2· ·to the last exhibit:

·3· · · · · · · · · "Appointed Captain Ken Barnes to

·4· · · · · · · ·be the sector and safety officer in

·5· · · · · · · ·the collapse zone."

·6· · · · · · · ·What does it mean to be the sector

·7· ·officer?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, that is all one.· Ken had

·9· ·the safety at that point.· That could be just the

10· ·terminology.· I don't know why really I put that

11· ·in, but Ken's job was safety, just as a Safety

12· ·Officer.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So his job at that stage

14· ·was simply to be watching and looking and making

15· ·sure that --

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- things don't happen to them?

18· · · · · · · ·And at 16:20, approximately, you get an

19· ·update from Captain Thomas?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right, continuing trying to

21· ·listen, call.· He is advising me that, you know,

22· ·they haven't had any more success.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And on that issue, was that to the

24· ·best of your recollection the extent of the

25· ·information that he gave you?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, pretty much, and as you can

·2· ·see, they requested again the concrete blades and

·3· ·the sewer camera from Public Works.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And these would be tools to aid in

·5· ·exploring the voids?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, at 16:37, approximately, this

·8· ·is where you have sent Captain Connors in with the

·9· ·EMS people?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I would like you to tell us

12· ·what information they gave you?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·When they came out, in their

14· ·opinion, the person was deceased.· They felt it was

15· ·a female, an older female.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did they say what that was based

17· ·on?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Aging spots I think on the hands

19· ·or on the hand.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And skin type, you know, a little

22· ·bit older, and so they were fairly detailed on

23· ·that.· Of course, they got that in to me.· The

24· ·interesting part that I found and I don't know how

25· ·they knew and, to be honest with you, I can't

·1· ·remember if it is at this point, but somewhere in

·2· ·the next little while it was David Timerski that

·3· ·was one of the paramedics that went in, and David

·4· ·is also one of my volunteer fire fighters if he is

·5· ·not working, and through -- and it wasn't direct,

·6· ·but as working through what I am doing, I could

·7· ·hear casual conversation just off to the side that

·8· ·David saying that that is not Lucie.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That is not, sorry?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not Lucie.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·So somewhere through the

13· ·collective that is there and the local knowledge of

14· ·the individuals that are at the scene, they were to

15· ·at least be able to determine that at that point

16· ·their guess was that that was not Lucie by the age

17· ·of the hand.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what did they tell you in

19· ·terms of specifically about the condition of the

20· ·person that they did check out?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Cold to the touch, both.· If I

22· ·remember correctly, they pretty much kind of had to

23· ·get in almost to their waist to be able to -- so

24· ·actually physically get into the hole close to

25· ·their waist to reach down and be able to make

·1· ·contact.· Of course, there was no audio or no voice

·2· ·or no response.· But that is pretty much about it,

·3· ·cold to the touch.· And because we thought of, you

·4· ·know, like I said earlier, if the limbs are pinched

·5· ·off due to the weight of the concrete, that it

·6· ·could be possibly that, and David is a pretty -- he

·7· ·has been around.· I think he knows what he is

·8· ·doing, and he basically said that they are

·9· ·deceased.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·She was dead?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you had confidence in

13· ·his judgment?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So at that stage, that is, at

16· ·16:37, you knew, first of all, that there were two

17· ·people, there could be more, but you knew that

18· ·there were two trapped in the rubble pile; that is

19· ·one thing you knew, correct?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you knew that one was dead;

22· ·correct?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you knew that the other had

25· ·shown signs of life, but there hadn't been signs in

·1· ·approximately an hour --

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- by that time?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then at 16:45 you get another

·6· ·piece of information, yes, and that is that the

·7· ·HUSAR --

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- is assembling from Toronto.

10· ·Now, it says:

11· · · · · · · · · "Base advised that the HUSAR

12· · · · · · · ·assembling from Toronto and asked

13· · · · · · · ·base to have him call my cell

14· · · · · · · ·phone".

15· · · · · · · ·Who is the "him"?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The lead, which would have been

17· ·Bill Neadles.

18· · · · · · · ·If we could back up just a little, and

19· ·if you even leave the screen where it is, just

20· ·looking at all of those items, these were some of

21· ·the activities that were taking place during the

22· ·time.

23· · · · · · · ·I'm not exactly sure where this will

24· ·fit in, and I am not exactly sure even that it is

25· ·not in the notes, but somewhere in this time, there

·1· ·is a lot of things happening and people come up to

·2· ·you and you are dealing with them on a one-to-one

·3· ·basis, but somewhere in here at one point, and I

·4· ·don't know if we are at it yet but I think it is

·5· ·shortly, because on the radio I was dealing with

·6· ·somebody in front and I had my scribe holding a

·7· ·cell phone to my ear talking to I don't even know

·8· ·who now.

·9· · · · · · · ·Somewhere through this process also

10· ·somebody came to me, and I can't tell you who it

11· ·was, I have no idea who it was, whether it was EMS

12· ·or OPP came and advised that somebody told them

13· ·that somebody -- the public was talking to somebody

14· ·on a cell phone in the pile.

15· · · · · · · ·I didn't really do anything with that,

16· ·because it just didn't seem logical to me, but I

17· ·did get that information passed to me.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That somebody was talking to a

19· ·person trapped?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I gather you didn't treat that

22· ·with any degree of seriousness?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I didn't.· I didn't think it

24· ·would be possible.· There was things that came

25· ·forward like that quite a bit.· We were dealing

·1· ·with it seemed almost every time somebody new that

·2· ·came on the scene could smell gas.· So of course,

·3· ·we had gas, we had residual gas still leaking out

·4· ·of the pipes, so every time they had a concern, I

·5· ·had to address those as well.· So we would get the

·6· ·gas monitor out again and we would go through it

·7· ·just to appease those folks that we don't have that

·8· ·issue.· That probably happened at least a half a

·9· ·dozen times, if not more.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You are advised that Bob Thorpe is

11· ·about 1.5 hours away and he is coming.· You have

12· ·told us who Bob Thorpe was.· What were you

13· ·expecting him to be doing when he got here? I

14· ·mean, he is -- it appears he has arranged for the

15· ·HUSAR team to come, but what were you expecting him

16· ·to do?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·To be honest, I really didn't have

18· ·any expectations.· He was coming.· He is my

19· ·advisor.· I don't know what their protocol is on

20· ·large scenes, whether they send those people to

21· ·those scenes or not.· Quite frankly, if he was

22· ·going to give assistance, I was happy to have him.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And he did come and he did stay

24· ·for the duration; is that not correct?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, he did.· He ended up

·1· ·basically staying with me, if it wasn't -- his

·2· ·instructions were to stay tight to the Incident

·3· ·Commander and offer any kind of resource that the

·4· ·province could bring forth, and he was my avenue to

·5· ·be able to do that.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·To access the provincial

·7· ·resources?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you find his assistance to

10· ·be -- or his efforts to be of assistance to you?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did, on a number of

12· ·occasions.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, you also had a request at

14· ·16:59 --

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Actually, that wasn't a request.

16· ·That was a command I gave to one of the rescue

17· ·teams.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes --

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Somewhere through this process, it

20· ·dawned on me that we could have a cavity between

21· ·the two escalators, and I wanted it checked in case

22· ·there was somebody on there.· And that is what that

23· ·is about.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so that would simply be a

25· ·very large void?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And miraculously, it was clear,

·2· ·there was nobody on it.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what I originally was looking

·4· ·for was at 16:53 that there was some vaccine that

·5· ·was retrieved?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, we received a call from the

·7· ·Algoma Health.· They had about $60,000 worth of a

·8· ·vaccine stored in their offices, and it would have

·9· ·set their program back quite a bit.· It was vaccine

10· ·I believe for flu shots, and they were concerned

11· ·that they wouldn't be able to get more.· So and

12· ·part of our job is to protect property and that is

13· ·property, and I thought it important enough to let

14· ·it go, to get it.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, would you tell us about your

16· ·conversation with Ken Barnes at approximately

17· ·17:05?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, that is actually that

19· ·picture we had up earlier.· That is when Ken called

20· ·me, and basically the conversation was we have done

21· ·everything that we possibly can in here and the

22· ·only thing from this point forward we are doing is

23· ·risking people's lives.

24· · · · · · · ·When I went in and I explained a little

25· ·bit earlier when I seen the guys actually trying to

·1· ·move that big slab and the problems that that would

·2· ·cause, it didn't take a whole lot of convincing

·3· ·that we have been in on the pile now a couple of

·4· ·hours.· He said they have looked at every hole that

·5· ·they possibly can, and that is when we decided to

·6· ·pull them out.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, we see underneath, shortly

·8· ·underneath that it says:

·9· · · · · · · · · "Advised inside crew we will have

10· · · · · · · ·the OPP dogs run the scene".

11· · · · · · · ·What were you thinking of there?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·What is the number there?

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It is the second-last one, 17:10.

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·To confirm our contact, I think

15· ·that is what we were trying to do there.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And were dogs sent in?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·To be honest with you, I can't

18· ·really recall.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, if we turn the page --

20· ·sorry, I'm not going to find that reference there.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· At 17:33:

22· · · · · · · · · "He advised not to send local dogs

23· · · · · · · ·[...]"

24· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, so they didn't go

25· ·in.

·1· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah:

·3· · · · · · · · · "He advised not to send local dogs

·4· · · · · · · ·in as the Sudbury OPP dogs have been

·5· · · · · · · ·dispatched".

·6· · · · · · · ·Do you know what was different about

·7· ·the Sudbury dogs than the OPP dogs?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, to be honest, to be honest

·9· ·with you, I don't even remember dogs being there in

10· ·the first portion.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But in any event, no dogs had been

12· ·sent in?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Not that I can recall.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, do you recall the events that

15· ·took place leading up to pulling everybody out?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, with regard to Ken's

17· ·concerns, my going in and seeing those concerns, a

18· ·lot of time has lapsed.· We are no longer having

19· ·contact with the victim.· That is pretty much -- is

20· ·that what you are asking?

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, there was a beam that was

22· ·being moved by the helicopter action; do you recall

23· ·any of that?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe that was after I pulled

25· ·the majority of the crews out.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Once we had the sewer cameras in,

·3· ·then it was Captain Connors, he was tasked with

·4· ·sitting beside a fellow by the name of Mike

·5· ·Sangster who has the knowledge to run that sewer

·6· ·camera.· I left John -- Ken Barnes, John Thomas and

·7· ·I can't remember, it might be on the notes on who

·8· ·the third fire fighter was, maybe it was Adam

·9· ·Vance, to work that camera.· And essentially, it

10· ·was them moving the camera into the various holes

11· ·and being observed by Darren and Mike.· Mike could

12· ·give a little bit of interpretation because he had

13· ·a better understanding of exactly what you are

14· ·seeing.

15· · · · · · · ·I did spend a few minutes over there

16· ·with them, and it was surprisingly quite clear on

17· ·what you could see with that sewer camera.· And we

18· ·didn't have any success with it.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you and your men exhausted all

20· ·possibilities before pulling out?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Everything that we could think of.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, I just want to -- before we

23· ·leave that area, I just want to ask you one other

24· ·question.· At 17:53 your Safety Officer asks you if

25· ·you wanted the victim flagged.· What does that word

·1· ·mean?· "Flagged" means what?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·To mark the location of where the

·3· ·victim was.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, when you are referring to the

·5· ·victim, are you talking about the person who was

·6· ·deceased or the person who had been communicating

·7· ·earlier?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That I believe was the victim, the

·9· ·potential casualty.· We really didn't have a

10· ·location.· The information that was supplied

11· ·through from Darren and John was that they could

12· ·hear the muffled response, but it seemed to be far

13· ·away and through the cavity.· They really couldn't

14· ·pinpoint the location.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So is the answer to my question

16· ·that the person who was flagged was the deceased?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And at 18:08, by 18:08

19· ·Mr. Thorpe has arrived and you update him and the

20· ·CAO, Mr. deBortoli, and what did you tell him, or

21· ·tell them, rather?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At that point, we knew we had the

23· ·two.· I'm not sure if this is the location or the

24· ·time, but basically advised them everything that we

25· ·had done up to this point.· We do have the one

·1· ·female victim and one potential casualty that we

·2· ·tried to locate but we can't, and it had been

·3· ·awhile since we have had a response back of any

·4· ·kind of a response.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So when you were referring to the

·6· ·first person, you referred to one as deceased?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the other one as a potential

·9· ·casualty?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, potential survivor.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, I'm just --

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I wasn't there.· I'm just trying

14· ·to figure out what term did you use?· Did you say

15· ·that they were potentially alive or did you say

16· ·that they were potentially dead?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, potentially alive, yes, that

18· ·we had muffled responses.· I would have basically

19· ·repeated what information I had, you know.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you actually leave the scene

21· ·at approximately 18:26 hours, and you left the

22· ·scene to attend a Community Control Group meeting;

23· ·correct?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·When you left, what instructions

·1· ·did you leave to Captain Barnes?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe at that point we -- I

·3· ·pulled them out as well, because they had the

·4· ·little issue with the helicopter, they wanted one

·5· ·more hole to check, and then they finished and they

·6· ·came out.· Instructions to Ken that the OPP will

·7· ·be sealing or maintaining control of the scene for

·8· ·us.

·9· · · · · · · ·I believe before that, we pulled -- I

10· ·had somebody go in with one of the OPP officers to

11· ·pull the servers or the information for the

12· ·cameras, the security cameras, to get those out

13· ·prior to closing.· We got the structural steel

14· ·drawings out, and also the key lockboxes, we took

15· ·control of those as well in case we needed them.

16· · · · · · · ·To finish answering your question,

17· ·sorry, for Ken, so it was basically pull up

18· ·everything and get everybody back to the hall.· Let

19· ·them get some food and drink and get things back

20· ·into order and to wait.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What was the mood of your forces?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, you know, we didn't achieve

23· ·what we wanted obviously.· I went in and I pretty

24· ·much had to grab John by the scruff of the neck to

25· ·get him out of there.· They didn't want to leave,

·1· ·but there was nothing else we could do.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So when you left the scene, you

·3· ·were aware of the fact that there was one victim

·4· ·dead, one possible survivor?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You had the TF-3, the HUSAR team

·7· ·was coming?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the OPP UCRT team was coming?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That I didn't know I think until

11· ·about another five minutes, which I think I found

12· ·out in the first EOC meeting.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Actually, if you look at 17:29,

14· ·and that is just about four or five lines down from

15· ·the top, 17:29:

16· · · · · · · · · "IC on cell phone with Elliot Lake

17· · · · · · · ·dispatch and they advised that the

18· · · · · · · ·(CBRNE) Chemical Biological

19· · · · · · · ·Radiologic Nuclear team have left

20· · · · · · · ·Gravenhurst".

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm, that is not UCRT.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, actually, technically it is

23· ·part of it.

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, is it?· Well, then, see, you

25· ·know more than I do.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So what --

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I took that as Dave -- I'm sorry,

·3· ·I can't remember his last name, but he was from the

·4· ·OFM.· I know they have a trailer that is loaded

·5· ·full of radios and lighting equipment and gas

·6· ·detectors, those type of items that could

·7· ·potentially help.· That is who I thought that was.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you were not aware, at

·9· ·least at the time that you went off to the

10· ·Community Control Group meeting, that the UCRT team

11· ·was coming?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't think so, no.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, we'll have to go to

14· ·Exhibit No. 3743 for the notes of the Community

15· ·Control Group.· Now, if we can go to page 006,

16· ·please.· Now, as I indicated to you earlier, these

17· ·are the notes of Natalie Bray, and you can see it

18· ·is the 23rd of June and you can see the time is

19· ·6:30.· And she outlines the people in attendance at

20· ·the meeting, and she notes Lesley Sprague; do you

21· ·know who she was?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And who is she?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Lesley is the City Clerk.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And as such, she is a member of

·1· ·the CCG?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And Bruce Ewald, you have told us

·4· ·who that is, and Mayor Hamilton.· The EMS, Harry

·5· ·Allamanchuk, is he the head of EMS?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Henry is the Chief of the EMS, and

·7· ·he would be in this particular case the EMS

·8· ·Incident Commander.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·He would be what?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The EMS Incident Commander.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And Tom Farquhar, Natalie

12· ·Bray and Darla Hennessey.· Who is Darla Hennessey?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Darla does special events and

14· ·works at the museum.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And she is a member of the

16· ·Community Control Group?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And Kate --

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Matuszewski.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- Matuszewski?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And she was an Information

23· ·Officer; correct?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And Rob deBortoli.· And who is E.

·1· ·Louis?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is Elizabeth Louis.· She is

·3· ·the assistant to the Treasurer.· Yeah, so I'm --

·4· ·I'm not sure if she was part of the team or if she

·5· ·was an alternate for somebody, that she had a

·6· ·position, but she was there.· Maybe she was there

·7· ·as clerical assistance.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then yourself and Bonnie

·9· ·deBortoli, and who is she?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·She is the Inspector's -- I'm not

11· ·quite sure of her official title, but I believe she

12· ·is the assistant to the Inspector and she was

13· ·acting as the scribe for Inspector Jollymore at

14· ·this point.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And --

16· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Is she related to

17· ·Mr. deBortoli?

18· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That is his wife.

19· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· That is his wife?

20· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.

21· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And Inspector Jollymore and Bob

23· ·Thorpe?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, one noticeable

·1· ·absentee is Trudy Rheaume.· I would have expected

·2· ·her to be part of this, given her status as being

·3· ·the Emergency Management Program Coordinator?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, this was a Saturday at 6:30,

·5· ·so I believe -- I'm not sure, but I believe Trudy,

·6· ·she has a camp north of town and there is no cell

·7· ·phone or phone coverage up there.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, as we'll see, these meetings

·9· ·were held on a very regular basis; correct?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What was the purpose of these

12· ·meetings?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The Emergency Control Group is

14· ·essentially there to best deal with and handle an

15· ·emergency situation.· The main purpose is to

16· ·support the Incident Commander, so --

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yourself in this case?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.· But it also looks

19· ·at globally the entire community, because the

20· ·community still has to operate, especially when it

21· ·becomes a longer duration event.· And basically, it

22· ·is pulling all the resources together to best

23· ·handle whatever event you are dealing with.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That certainly explains what the

25· ·individuals would be doing when they are not at the

·1· ·meeting, but what was the actual point of the

·2· ·meetings themselves?· What would happen at those

·3· ·meetings?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Everybody -- the Mayor was the

·5· ·head of -- or I guess the Chair, if you will, the

·6· ·head of this group.· And essentially, everybody

·7· ·would go around the table and everybody would put

·8· ·on the table their updates.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And if there was anything that

11· ·needed discussion to move it forward, that

12· ·discussion or opinion would come forward.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So it would be to -- one purpose,

14· ·at least, would be to bring everybody up to date as

15· ·to what has happened since the last meeting?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And would there be plans hatched

18· ·at a meeting as to what has to happen over the next

19· ·period of time?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, yeah, they could.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is a coordination of efforts.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Say that again?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It's a coordination of efforts.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·So in a sense, you are following

·2· ·the EMS still trying to coordinate, and when I say

·3· ·that, this is where a lot of that coordination will

·4· ·come in as well.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·This -- you are the Incident

·6· ·Commander; correct?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what we are talking about at

·9· ·this stage at least is this is not a Unified

10· ·Command; it is a single command and that command

11· ·resides in you?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At this stage, yes, because I'm

13· ·the only agency there.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I shouldn't say that. I

16· ·believe the EMS were there as well, and they did

17· ·formalize their command presence.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I guess just before we

19· ·actually get to the goings on at the meeting, I

20· ·would like you to just have a look at your

21· ·Emergency Response Plan, and that is Exhibit No.

22· ·7799.· And I assume you recognize that document?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we go to page 008, this is

25· ·the -- you have obviously instigated or initiated

·1· ·the call-out, as we have seen earlier in the

·2· ·evidence.· And if we look at the -- it sort of

·3· ·gives you the composition of the CCG; it is

·4· ·outlined there.· But I want to take you to the next

·5· ·paragraph, that is:

·6· · · · · · · · · "When a member of the CCG receives

·7· · · · · · · ·a warning of a real or potential

·8· · · · · · · ·[danger], that member will

·9· · · · · · · ·immediately contact the Elliot Lake

10· · · · · · · ·Fire Department and direct them to

11· · · · · · · ·initiate the notification of the

12· · · · · · · ·CCG.· The member initiating the call

13· · · · · · · ·must identify who they are, provide

14· · · · · · · ·pertinent details [...]", et cetera.

15· · · · · · · ·You were the one in this particular

16· ·case that initiated the call-out?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and if we could go to page

19· ·018 --

20· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· Mr. Commissioner, I have an

21· ·objection to the use of this document.

22· · · · · · · ·On the 25th of June, I sent an e-mail

23· ·to the participants and to the Commission which

24· ·reads:

25· · · · · · · · · "Sorry to intrude on your vacation

·1· ·time, but I wish to bring to your

·2· ·attention my views on which of the

·3· ·nine various City of Elliot Lake

·4· ·Emergency Response Plans I have

·5· ·found so far on Relativity.

·6· · · ·Attached is the ERP that I

·7· ·downloaded from the City of Elliot

·8· ·Lake's website on the 23rd of June,

·9· ·2012.· This is the version which

10· ·corresponds word for word and page

11· ·by page with CEL_E000059996.· I have

12· ·attached the one I downloaded on the

13· ·day of the collapse which I will

14· ·argue is the one the citizens of

15· ·Elliot Lake had in force and on the

16· ·website for the citizens to follow."

17· ·I also said:

18· · · "I intend to utilize this version

19· ·for the basis of my questions to

20· ·those involved in Part 2.· I am

21· ·requesting Commission Counsel to

22· ·make this version of the City of

23· ·Elliot Lake Emergency Response Plan

24· ·the one and only version to be used

25· ·in the Inquiry.

·1· · · · · · · · · ·Please advise if there are

·2· · · · · · · ·opposing views to my request with

·3· · · · · · · ·your reasons, if you will."

·4· · · · · · · · · ·[As read.]

·5· · · · · · · ·I got no response, and I am raising an

·6· ·objection to that.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Are you saying the

·8· ·document that is up that has been produced as

·9· ·Exhibit No. 7799 is not the document that you have?

10· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· That's right, sir. I

11· ·didn't -- I haven't compared this one.· I looked at

12· ·ten of them.· There is different page numbers.

13· ·There is different things in them that just weren't

14· ·the same as this one.

15· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Well, I don't know.

16· ·Mr. Wallace?

17· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Well, I can tell you

18· ·that, in looking through the various productions, I

19· ·have probably seen a number of different copies of

20· ·the document.· I certainly did not go and look line

21· ·by line at each and every page.

22· · · · · · · ·However, the purpose for which I have

23· ·brought the Chief's attention to is with respect to

24· ·the responsibility of the Incident Commander, and

25· ·if there is some material difference in terms of

·1· ·what I am putting to the Chief, then of course

·2· ·Mr. Myles is free to put his version of the

·3· ·document, if in fact it is any different.

·4· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Well, how many

·5· ·copies of the Emergency Response Plan are on the

·6· ·database?

·7· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· I don't know the total

·8· ·number.· I can find out tonight.· But I looked at

·9· ·ten of them.

10· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Of this same

11· ·essential document?

12· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· Yes, that are different.

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So ten different

14· ·versions.· How are they different?· I mean, are

15· ·they different in a --

16· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· In number of pages.

17· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right, but in a

18· ·material particular, in something important, or is

19· ·it just page numbers kind of thing?

20· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· Well, there is extra pages

21· ·that were not in the one that was on the website

22· ·for the citizens of Elliot Lake.· That is the one

23· ·we should be using.· That is what the City was told

24· ·was our ERP.· We shouldn't be looking at something

25· ·else now.

·1· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Well, I don't know

·2· ·what the City told the citizens.· I have no way of

·3· ·gauging that.

·4· · · · · · · ·But I certainly would like to know how

·5· ·many versions there are out there.· Is there a

·6· ·marked difference between the various versions?

·7· ·Otherwise, I mean, I don't know what the citizens

·8· ·were provided.· Let's find out.· But at the moment,

·9· ·I just don't know.

10· · · · · · · ·MR. CASSAN:· I have a comment to add,

11· ·Mr. Commissioner, certainly with my friend,

12· ·Mr. Wallace, and with Ms. Rheaume's assistance.

13· · · · · · · ·The document that Mr. Wallace has put

14· ·forward now is one that has some personal

15· ·information removed from it with respect to

16· ·telephone numbers and actually an activation code

17· ·word, and so there is some sensitivity in using the

18· ·document that Mr. Wallace has put in rather than --

19· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· This is the one that

20· ·is unedited?

21· · · · · · · ·MR. CASSAN:· I believe that the one

22· ·that Mr. Wallace is referring to is the one that

23· ·was edited by Ms. Rheaume and produced in

24· ·electronic format to ensure that that data was not

25· ·made public.

·1· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Well, folks, it is

·2· ·3:30.· See if you can hash this out and give me

·3· ·more particulars, because at this moment, I just

·4· ·don't know.· I haven't -- I think I have seen this

·5· ·very vaguely before as I was going through, but

·6· ·certainly not with as much of a fine-tooth comb as

·7· ·Mr. Myles may have.

·8· · · · · · · ·But I need some information, obviously,

·9· ·which is the official document; was a different

10· ·document somehow out there and does that other

11· ·document purport to be official; are there

12· ·significant or material differences between all of

13· ·them?

14· · · · · · · ·You raise a separate issue from

15· ·Mr. Myles, but there is a question of authenticity.

16· ·The only thing is, were these documents made

17· ·exhibits as part of the group of exhibits that you

18· ·filed initially?

19· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Yes.

20· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Was this one?

21· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Yes.

22· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Yeah, and we asked

23· ·the participants if they had objections to any of

24· ·these documents being made exhibits, and I haven't

25· ·heard of any except right now from Mr. Myles and

·1· ·potentially from Mr. Cassan.

·2· · · · · · · ·So I would like to know, to begin with,

·3· ·how many different versions there are of the

·4· ·Emergency Response Plan.

·5· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· If I could -- well, I'll

·6· ·ask Mr. Myles at the break.

·7· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Yeah, that is why I

·8· ·say it is an appropriate time perhaps for a little

·9· ·research, and we'll take our afternoon break at

10· ·this point.

11· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Sure, okay.

12· · · · · · · ·-- RECESSED AT 3:30 P.M.

13· · · · · · · ·-- RESUMED at 3:50 P.M.

14· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Mr. Wallace?

15· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Yes, thank you,

16· ·Commissioner.· The issue for now is resolved,

17· ·inasmuch as Mr. Myles and I compared the respective

18· ·versions of the two documents specifically on the

19· ·page that I wanted to use and they are virtually

20· ·identical.

21· · · · · · · ·So I also pointed out to Mr. Myles that

22· ·the real person who would be able to speak to this

23· ·is Trudy Rheaume, and she is going to be called in

24· ·the next little while.

25· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· The fact is that

·1· ·these documents I take it come from a variety of

·2· ·sources arising out of the Commission's subpoena

·3· ·process.

·4· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Yes, and our subpoena

·5· ·process also includes the OPP, who have taken the

·6· ·documents from the sources as well.· So we are

·7· ·getting a large number of duplications.

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· In any event, it

·9· ·just seems to me on the basis of what you say and

10· ·report about Mr. Myles' opportunity to be -- to

11· ·have a look at the documents that you have there,

12· ·for our purposes there is agreement, Mr. Myles,

13· ·that what the Chief is going to be cross-examined

14· ·on is no different from the other documents that

15· ·you have got.

16· · · · · · · ·You will be given a full opportunity of

17· ·cross-examination on the provenance of these eight

18· ·or nine or ten documents, if you find that it is

19· ·relevant, and I take it that the -- you say Ms.

20· ·Rheaume is going to be the ultimate or the best

21· ·witness, the best evidence as to what is the actual

22· ·Emergency Response Plan out of all of these?

23· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· I would think so.

24· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Yeah.

25· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Yeah.

·1· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Okay, so --

·2· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Because she -- when we

·3· ·were having some difficulties, we consulted with

·4· ·her and she provided Mr. Cassan and his remarks to

·5· ·you earlier had indicated that there was some

·6· ·documents that information had been removed, which

·7· ·is indeed the case.

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Sure.

·9· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· But it was not -- it is

10· ·not this.· It is the appendices to the plan.· The

11· ·plan is a public document or a document to which

12· ·the public has access to.· The appendices are not.

13· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· With the personal

14· ·numbers and the codes and all that stuff, sure.

15· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Exactly, yes.

16· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right,

17· ·Mr. Myles, are you satisfied at least on a

18· ·temporary basis, until we hear from Ms. Rheaume?

19· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· Yes, sir.· Because I opened

20· ·my mouth, I have homework to do tonight because I

21· ·agreed with Mr. Wallace that I would take his

22· ·version and go through it word for word.

23· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Okay, and you know,

24· ·I spoke to Counsel in our offices and they

25· ·acknowledge that you are right, that they never

·1· ·responded to your e-mails, and perhaps there ought

·2· ·to have been.· In any event, that is water under

·3· ·the bridge at this point in time.

·4· · · · · · · ·So that being said, thank you.· Your

·5· ·objection is a valid one, and I think we have

·6· ·partly solved it in any event for the moment.

·7· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· Thank you,

·8· ·Mr. Commissioner.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right, go ahead,

10· ·Mr. Wallace.

11· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· The page that I wanted

13· ·to draw your attention to, Chief, is page number

14· ·18, which outlines the responsibilities of the

15· ·Incident Commander.

16· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· What was the page number?

17· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· 18.

18· · · · · · · ·Are you there, Mr. Myles?· It is --

19· · · · · · · ·MR. MYLES:· It's my page 14, but go

20· ·ahead.

21· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It is your page 14, okay.

23· · · · · · · ·These are your responsibilities

24· ·vis-a-vis as outlined in the Emergency Response

25· ·Plan; correct?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And it outlines a number of

·3· ·things, and I am not going to go through them all,

·4· ·but the first and foremost is that the Incident

·5· ·Commander is responsible for, and the first bullet

·6· ·point:

·7· · · · · · · · · "Directing all activities at the

·8· · · · · · · ·emergency site and will be relieved

·9· · · · · · · ·of all other duties".

10· · · · · · · ·And up until the point in time you went

11· ·to that meeting, that is exactly what you were

12· ·doing; you were at the site and you were directing

13· ·activities at the site?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah.· And throughout the duration

16· ·of this incident, your time was virtually spent

17· ·either at the site or at the Community Control

18· ·Group meetings and the odd press conference?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then if we go down to the

21· ·seventh bullet point:

22· · · · · · · · · "Determining the best method for

23· · · · · · · ·dealing with the emergency. A

24· · · · · · · ·decision must be made whether to try

25· · · · · · · ·and solve the problem or whether to

·1· · · · · · · ·let the emergency run its course and

·2· · · · · · · ·simply act to preserve life and

·3· · · · · · · ·property.· Priorities can then be

·4· · · · · · · ·defined and communicated to

·5· · · · · · · ·emergency agencies."

·6· · · · · · · ·Ultimately, this decision is your

·7· ·decision; correct?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you look to the Community

10· ·Control Group for input in this type of a decision,

11· ·or is the support you are getting from them

12· ·relating to non-site issues?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And typically, depending on what

14· ·it would be, if it was a fire, I think it would

15· ·be -- I wouldn't be looking for so much support

16· ·other than maybe equipment or logistics that they

17· ·can advance for me.· In this particular case, we

18· ·were -- already activated the HUSAR and had the

19· ·experts coming in, so yes, I was looking for help

20· ·from them.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, the other one that I am

22· ·interested is the following one:

23· · · · · · · · · "Requesting additional personnel

24· · · · · · · ·and resources as required,

25· · · · · · · ·maintaining a reserve to deal with

·1· · · · · · · ·the unexpected."

·2· · · · · · · ·Now, it says that this is your

·3· ·responsibility.· In this particular case, you did

·4· ·request and did receive the additional resources in

·5· ·the form of the HUSAR and UCRT personnel.· What --

·6· ·are there -- I assume there are limits on what you

·7· ·can request?· Like do you have a carte blanche as

·8· ·an Incident Commander?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, it would have to be

10· ·practical and you would have to be able to justify

11· ·a need.· I don't think they are that -- I don't

12· ·think that list that you might be thinking is that

13· ·long.· Essentially, you are talking about things

14· ·like in this case the HUSAR.· It might be say a

15· ·HazMat team, another specialty.· It is more just

16· ·the specialty things out there that you might

17· ·request if -- and I might be speaking -- and the

18· ·way I look at it, this would apply to any Incident

19· ·Commander.· So I'll just use the example say it was

20· ·an OPP as the Incident Commander and they had some

21· ·kind of -- maybe the bomb crew that he has locally

22· ·cannot deal with it, so they may have another

23· ·agency that they may be able to contact.· I think

24· ·that is what that is referring to.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, well, what I was thinking of

·1· ·is in terms of if you had determined that the best

·2· ·way to deal with this problem right now is to get a

·3· ·crane from the Sault, would you be authorized to

·4· ·make that call?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I would think so.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Or would you need to seek approval

·7· ·from somebody before you could do that?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I think I probably could, but

·9· ·I would probably be touching base with my CAO and

10· ·the Mayor.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So I would like to return

12· ·then to the Community Control Group meeting.· Thank

13· ·you.

14· · · · · · · ·Now, you have identified for us the

15· ·participants in the meeting, and you have told us

16· ·how this works, that is, people -- I gather it goes

17· ·around a room and people provide their updates if

18· ·they have something to add to the conversation?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And just before I get to that, I

21· ·also understand that while these meetings were

22· ·being held, the woman by the name of Elizabeth

23· ·Louis was writing points down on an easel like that

24· ·is off to your left-hand in the corner there; is

25· ·that correct?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It could be.· So I know we did

·2· ·have an easel up there, so I don't remember who was

·3· ·writing on it.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·No, but somebody was taking down

·5· ·what was being said?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Natalie Bray was taking notes.

·7· ·Whether they were taking it on the board, I really

·8· ·couldn't tell you.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, well, let's look at the

10· ·bottom of page 006, if you could just raise that

11· ·up, please, Ms. Kuka.· So this meeting starts at

12· ·approximately 6:30 on the 23rd, and then it says:

13· · · · · · · · · "OPP [...]"

14· · · · · · · ·So that would mean that that is

15· ·Inspector Jollymore speaking; is that correct?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And he is informing the group that

18· ·the:

19· · · · · · · · · "Lead from [...]"

20· · · · · · · ·I guess he is telling them that Ryan

21· ·Cox is the name of the lead from the urban rescue

22· ·team?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that he has asked for

25· ·equipment, a structural engineer on-site, and then

·1· ·it says Sault Ste. Marie; do you see that?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then it says:

·4· · · · · · · · · "Can't go in [without] clearance

·5· · · · · · · ·from Ministry of Labour".

·6· · · · · · · ·Do you see that note?· It is actually

·7· ·"Can't go in [without] clearance [...]", and then

·8· ·the next page --

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I see that part.· I don't --

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah, if you could just turn the

11· ·page, Ms. Kuka, "[...] Ministry of Labour".· What

12· ·was that in reference to?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is what he is saying Ryan Cox

14· ·can and cannot do, that they are asking for a site

15· ·engineer.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·No, no -- are you saying that Ryan

17· ·Cox is saying he can't go in without a clearance

18· ·from the Ministry of Labour?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I'm thinking he is -- can you

20· ·go back a page?· He is saying he can't go in until

21· ·he gets clearance from the MOL.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And it is your understanding that

23· ·that is Ryan Cox's view or that is Mr. Jollymore's

24· ·view?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is Mr. Jollymore bringing the

·1· ·information forward.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And is it your understanding that

·3· ·the Ministry of Labour has the ability to regulate

·4· ·the activities of a rescue operation?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At this point, I was probably

·6· ·uncertain.· Later on I was made aware that they

·7· ·could not.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So as of the 23rd, you weren't

·9· ·sure whether they could or they could not?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I didn't think they could, but I

11· ·wasn't sure.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And when did you learn that they

13· ·did not have the power to regulate the safety of a

14· ·rescue operation?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Probably it would have been a few

16· ·hours after this.· I don't know the exact time.

17· ·There is probably reference someplace.· I was

18· ·informed through Bob Thorpe, the OFM advisor,

19· ·through his office, which I believe was Carol-Lyn

20· ·Chambers, that the Ministry of Labour could not

21· ·interfere with the rescue.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then it says --

23· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· Do you know why that

24· ·is, why the Ministry of Labour, for example, could

25· ·not issue a stop work order from a legislative

·1· ·perspective?· Do you know how that conflict is

·2· ·resolved --

·3· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· A rescue, there is a lot

·4· ·of things during rescue, and we'll get into this in

·5· ·quite a bit of detail later, the difference between

·6· ·rescue and recovery, but rescue exempts fire

·7· ·services from a lot of things, especially when it

·8· ·comes to health and safety matters.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And we would find

10· ·that in the legislation?

11· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.

12· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· That is your

13· ·understanding?

14· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, that is my --

15· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· I'm not asking you

16· ·to cite chapter and verse.

17· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, so but that is

18· ·essentially the crutch of it.· We work in a

19· ·different environment that typically say the

20· ·industrial regulations do not apply.· We have

21· ·section 21 guidelines that we have to follow that

22· ·are joint efforts through the Ministry of Labour,

23· ·the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs and the

24· ·International Association of Fire Fighters that

25· ·work on safety issues that come out for the most

·1· ·common type of safety issues that we need to be

·2· ·concerned with and have regard for.

·3· · · · · · · ·It is basically a different set of

·4· ·rules.· When we are not in an emergency operation,

·5· ·then we fall under the basic industrial regulations

·6· ·for health and safety, so we do get exempt on

·7· ·certain things.

·8· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· So there are

·9· ·statutorily defined exemptions?

10· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·There is, there is.

12· · · · · · · ·And then if we can go to the next page

13· ·again, Ms. Kuka, please, you will see that under

14· ·the Ministry of Labour that it says:

15· · · · · · · · · "Bruce to find:

16· · · · · · · · · ·1 heavy hydraulic crane.

17· · · · · · · · · ·Wedge anchors.

18· · · · · · · ·6 x 6 and 4 x 4 for bracing".

19· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, is the Bruce as in "Bruce to

22· ·find", is that Bruce Ewald?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know about the crane. I

24· ·know the discussion took place to find Bruce

25· ·Caughill as the engineer.· I think, if I remember

·1· ·correctly, the OPP were going to take care of the

·2· ·crane, and I think eventually they did.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did it appear to you, from what

·4· ·you had seen, that in order to successfully deal

·5· ·with this, they were going to need something, a

·6· ·crane?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At this point?· I had no

·8· ·indication of what they would need for --

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, you knew they couldn't lift

10· ·it by hand?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you knew that they couldn't

13· ·lift it by a boom truck?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Would a crane not be the next

16· ·logical progression?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Now it would be in hindsight,

18· ·because I have seen the operation and how it works.

19· ·Then I didn't have the knowledge to make the call

20· ·that a crane would be required.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It was Ryan Cox, was it not, that

22· ·was asking for the crane; is that not your

23· ·understanding?

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe he asked, yes, Inspector

25· ·Jollymore for the crane.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, so this is -- you have been

·2· ·told that the lead person from the Urban Rescue

·3· ·Unit of the OPP is asking for a crane; correct?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah.· Now, I appreciate the fact

·6· ·that you didn't know exactly what they were going

·7· ·to do, but when you heard that this fellow was

·8· ·asking for a crane, it would have seemed like a

·9· ·reasonable request now that you have seen with your

10· ·own eyes what the scene looked like?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know if anything

13· ·was done about the crane at 6:30?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I took that that the OPP were

15· ·going to get the crane and order the crane, and I

16· ·think they eventually did.· I think it was Brian

17· ·Faye that ended up getting tasked to do that.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But it is not clear -- it is

19· ·certainly not clear from the notes that we are

20· ·looking at as to whether anything has actually

21· ·happened?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, not on there, no.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And it was not your belief that

24· ·they had ordered a crane at that stage?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, I don't think so.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And then if we could look

·2· ·at your input into the meeting, you will see on the

·3· ·next page, please, under "Chief Officer" you have

·4· ·indicated that you had activated the Mutual Aid; do

·5· ·you see that?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you then in the first

·8· ·paragraph outline the situation as far as the

·9· ·structure is concerned, and in the next paragraph

10· ·you are actually talking about the condition of the

11· ·persons that you have had contact with, and then

12· ·you indicate that:

13· · · · · · · · · "Victim - trying to get to.· Very

14· · · · · · · ·muffled response for 45 mins -

15· · · · · · · ·attempted to locate, scene is very

16· · · · · · · ·unsafe.· Concrete slabs hanging by

17· · · · · · · ·cables.· 1 hour after could not hear

18· · · · · · · ·her anymore."

19· · · · · · · ·This is information that you shared

20· ·with the group?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That is, that for about 45 minutes

23· ·we had contact with an individual, and we have lost

24· ·contact with her?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you have not indicated whether

·2· ·she is dead or alive at that stage?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, if we can turn the page,

·5· ·please, at the top, the top is referring to the

·6· ·second individual:

·7· · · · · · · · · "Got to a limb - no pulse

·8· · · · · · · ·verified", and then it has got a

·9· · · · · · · ·dash, "- not confirming fatality. 2

10· · · · · · · ·hours after trying to make way,

11· · · · · · · ·pulled everyone out."

12· · · · · · · ·And that would be when you pulled

13· ·everybody out after the helicopter caused the beam

14· ·to swing?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think it was just before that.

16· ·It could be either that one or when I pulled

17· ·everybody out and just left the three fellows, the

18· ·three fire fighters with the sewer camera.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What I am asking is you told us a

20· ·little earlier this afternoon that the EMS chap who

21· ·is also a volunteer fire fighter, you had a great

22· ·deal of faith in his judgment.

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And he told you the lady was dead?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Why here are you saying "not

·2· ·confirming fatality"?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Is that my note?

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That is what it says, that is what

·5· ·the note is of what you had said.

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, can you just go back to the

·7· ·page before that and bring it forward?

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah.

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·(Witness reviews document.)

10· · · · · · · ·Yes, and go ahead now.

11· · · · · · · ·Yeah.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then you will see if you look

13· ·down, there is "EMS" below?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I don't know why it has

15· ·that, but I know I said we had a casualty in that

16· ·meeting.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So it was your belief that the

18· ·person was dead and it was something that you were

19· ·quite certain of?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, yeah, sure, it is -- I have

21· ·got -- we have got to then "no pulse verified".· It

22· ·was verified by the EMS.· So yes, I was certain

23· ·that we had that, we had that because we got into

24· ·discussion on what we could release to the press.

25· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And at the meeting, if you look at

·1· ·the next page, it breaks up and the agreement is to

·2· ·reconvene at 10:00 p.m.?· Sorry, one further page,

·3· ·yeah.· Do you see that, "Reconvene at 10 p.m.", the

·4· ·last --

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, yes, okay.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, if we can then go back to

·7· ·your notes, Exhibit No. 8025, and if you look at

·8· ·the bottom of the page at approximately 20:00

·9· ·hours, you returned to the Fire Hall to clean up

10· ·and speak to the fire fighters.· What did you tell

11· ·the troops?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I think at that point a lot of it

13· ·was that they did a good job earlier in the day and

14· ·it was appreciated.· It was a difficult, a

15· ·difficult situation.· They did what they could.

16· · · · · · · ·I believe we talked a little bit about

17· ·CISM, if anybody was having any difficulties

18· ·dealing with the issue and as we move forward, you

19· ·know, that we will be calling people out, something

20· ·along that line.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And then there was a further

22· ·meeting of the CCG at 10 o'clock, and I'll just get

23· ·my -- now, if we could go to the Natalie Bray

24· ·exhibits, the notes of Natalie Bray, and that is

25· ·Exhibit No. 3743.

·1· · · · · · · ·MS. KUKA:· What page?

·2· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·12.· Now, at this meeting we have

·4· ·in attendance Trina Miller and Dan Esposto, both of

·5· ·the OPP, Kate, who we had earlier, Darla Hennessey,

·6· ·Bruce Ewald, Bob deBortoli, Henry Allamanchuk, Dan

·7· ·Newburn, this is a new name and he is from the Fire

·8· ·Marshals Office?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, he is.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yourself, Inspector Jollymore, his

11· ·scribe, David Howse and Bob Thorpe, and they are

12· ·two other persons from the Fire Marshals Office?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You are -- it says:

15· · · · · · · · · "Rob - to Paul Officer".

16· · · · · · · ·I assume that is Mr. deBortoli is

17· ·speaking to you?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you are informed that the

20· ·HUSAR team are going to arrive between 2:30 and

21· ·3:00 in the morning?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe that is me informing

23· ·him.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, that is what was happening

·1· ·prior.· The drawings that we pulled out, some were

·2· ·in here.· I had Bob Thorpe go back to the Fire Hall

·3· ·with the drawings, photograph them and send them to

·4· ·the engineer on the HUSAR bus coming up.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, if we can go -- okay, on that

·6· ·page there it indicates that under the notation

·7· ·"OPP":

·8· · · · · · · · · "Ryan Cox on scene."

·9· · · · · · · ·He is the fellow from the UCRT team?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And he is the:

12· · · · · · · · · "1st part of 13 rescue unit team."

13· · · · · · · ·You are also told that a:

14· · · · · · · · · "Structural engineer [is] on

15· · · · · · · ·route.· Ministry of Labour [has] 2

16· · · · · · · ·reps in Blind River waiting for

17· · · · · · · ·instructions from Ministry of

18· · · · · · · ·Labour."

19· · · · · · · ·And if we go to the next page, just in

20· ·the middle of the page there it says:

21· · · · · · · · · "Inquiries about a crane.· Wants

22· · · · · · · ·confirmation first before ordering."

23· · · · · · · ·Now, this is still in the part where

24· ·Mr. Jollymore is speaking to the group.· Do you

25· ·recall that conversation, what his issue was about

·1· ·not ordering the crane?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.· I mean, maybe he -- I'm not

·3· ·quite sure.· You know, maybe he wanted the

·4· ·engineers there first, or I'm thinking you would

·5· ·have to -- I don't really remember, to be honest

·6· ·with you.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But it is clear that the crane

·8· ·that was spoken of at 6:30 earlier that evening has

·9· ·still not been ordered at 10 o'clock at night?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It appears that way, yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did anybody question that amongst

12· ·the group?· Like for example, did you ask him like

13· ·confirmation of what?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.· You know, I don't really

15· ·remember a whole lot about this.· You know, when

16· ·you are giving your brief, you go around the table

17· ·really quick and sometimes there is discussion, but

18· ·usually you finish your list and then they -- then

19· ·we will get into any particular issues.· So most of

20· ·it is reporting kind of what you are doing, I

21· ·guess.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, if we go to -- if we can --

23· ·we'll leave that meeting and we'll go back to your

24· ·notes.· That is Exhibit No. 8025.· Thank you.

25· · · · · · · ·And at 22:52, that is at 10:52 p.m.,

·1· ·you are briefing Ryan Cox; do you see that?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·What was the time?

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·22:52.

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And do you -- well, why don't you

·6· ·just tell us what you told him and what they did as

·7· ·a result?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Essentially, there I ran through

·9· ·everything that we did essentially up to that

10· ·point, you know, told them where we had the

11· ·casualty, where we believe there was a potential

12· ·victim, gave him as much as I possibly could on the

13· ·condition of the structure so he knew exactly what

14· ·he was facing.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, just excuse me.· Yesterday

16· ·Constable Dale Burns from the OPP indicated that he

17· ·had shared some photographs with some members of

18· ·the UCRT team.· Did Ryan Cox mention that at that

19· ·point in time --

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- because that might have taken

22· ·place later?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Maybe.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· In any event, what did he

25· ·say he was going to do?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·One, they were going to try and

·2· ·get some equipment in there to monitor.· They were

·3· ·going to look at getting a LifeLocator on.· I don't

·4· ·recall if there was much discussion about getting

·5· ·the engineer in prior to them going in.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·It says here at 22:58:

·7· · · · · · · · · "UCRT was implementing rescue

·8· · · · · · · ·strategy."

·9· · · · · · · ·What was the strategy?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That is what I said.· They were

11· ·going to -- well, he has got to do an assessment as

12· ·well.· I don't remember if he said that they had to

13· ·wait for the engineer, but I know they were going

14· ·to come up with a plan and see what they can do.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, the following line says at

16· ·23:30, that is 11:30 at night:

17· · · · · · · · · "Ministry of Labour on scene.· IC

18· · · · · · · ·spoke to them about going through

19· · · · · · · ·accountability."

20· · · · · · · ·What is that all about?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I wanted to make sure that they

22· ·were following the accountability, had the

23· ·discussion with those folks.· It is pretty much

24· ·about that time I think that I was advised that

25· ·they had no authority there.· But speaking with the

·1· ·gentleman, I knew I had a 26-year-old engineer

·2· ·coming up with the HUSAR team and I also knew that

·3· ·the Ministry of Labour engineer was a well-seasoned

·4· ·engineer, and I am thinking two heads are better

·5· ·than one.· He definitely gave me the impression he

·6· ·was there to help, and he stayed.· I let him stay.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·If we look at the next notation,

·8· ·and this would be at 11:33:

·9· · · · · · · · · "IC gets request to use our two

10· · · · · · · ·pickups for the two tie offs for the

11· · · · · · · ·UCRT to rappel into the collapse

12· · · · · · · ·zone.· OK given."

13· · · · · · · ·I gather you were being asked to

14· ·position some pickup trucks on the roof of the

15· ·structure so that they could use the weight of the

16· ·trucks to counterbalance the weight of the men that

17· ·were going to rappel into the collapse zone?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.· They were far quite

19· ·a bit away from the collapse area, and they wanted

20· ·the use the trucks, exactly that, to position.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, if we go to the next

22· ·page here:

23· · · · · · · · · "Command advises base that OFM

24· · · · · · · ·received an email [...]"

25· · · · · · · ·And OFM, is that Bob Thorpe or is that

·1· ·somebody else?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe it was Bob.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay:

·4· · · · · · · · · "Command advises base that OFM

·5· · · · · · · ·received an email advising that the

·6· · · · · · · ·MOL is shutting us down on the

·7· · · · · · · ·rescue component until the MOL

·8· · · · · · · ·Engineer can do an assessment."

·9· · · · · · · ·Now, does that accurately capture the

10· ·information that you were given by Bob Thorpe?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Pretty much.· It was a bit of

12· ·confusion I guess on that issue.· Essentially, it

13· ·took a little bit to get it cleared up, and the

14· ·equipment that they were trying to get into the

15· ·hole, rather than rappel down into the hole, it was

16· ·determined that they'll just put it down, and I

17· ·believe part of that was to permit the engineer

18· ·time to do an assessment.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So it sounds like the original

20· ·plan was for the UCRT team to have two men go into

21· ·the -- be lowered into the collapse zone with some

22· ·form of monitoring equipment, and as a result of

23· ·this information that the Ministry of Labour was

24· ·shutting them down, the plan was altered and,

25· ·rather than people and equipment going into the

·1· ·collapse zone, it was simply now going to be

·2· ·equipment; is that correct?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.· Yeah, that's right.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And then we have at 30

·5· ·minutes after 12:00 Bob Thorpe is back on the

·6· ·scene, and at 41 minutes after 12:00:

·7· · · · · · · · · "IC advises base we are continuing

·8· · · · · · · ·rescue efforts."

·9· · · · · · · ·So obviously, then you have received

10· ·some information that either the -- well, why don't

11· ·you tell us what information it was?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, essentially, it was a bit of

13· ·confusion more so than anything I think on the

14· ·e-mail and how it all come about.· The end result

15· ·was that there really was, at that stage there was

16· ·no need to put the officers rappelling into the

17· ·hole when they could do essentially the same thing

18· ·by lowering the equipment down.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But was it not more fundamental

20· ·than that, that it was a question of whether the

21· ·Ministry of Labour had the power to do it or they

22· ·didn't have the power to do it?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, we got -- yeah, that got

24· ·sorted out as well.· You have to remember, that

25· ·came in from the MOL.· It took a little bit of

·1· ·discussion to get that cleared up.· I believe that

·2· ·was probably somewhat sorted out as well on

·3· ·chain -- you have to remember, MOL, they think they

·4· ·are going to be thinking differently.· They are

·5· ·still thinking as under the industrial regulations

·6· ·where this is a rescue.· And we had that one hiccup

·7· ·I believe at the start, and that was pretty much it

·8· ·until later.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You are referring to the 25th?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, you stayed on the

12· ·scene until 2:51, so that is almost 3 o'clock in

13· ·the morning.· At 3 o'clock in the morning the

14· ·people on the scene are the UCRT team?

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And we have an MOL engineer

17· ·on-site?

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe there was three MOL

19· ·people on-site.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, but one being an engineer?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yes, that's correct.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you have any -- and we'll hear

23· ·evidence on this, but this engineer was

24· ·Mr. Jeffreys?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you have any dealings with

·2· ·Mr. Jeffreys at this point in time, that is,

·3· ·between the time of his arrival and the time you

·4· ·left the scene at 2:51?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I can't remember if it is exactly

·6· ·at this time.· I do have a recollection of down --

·7· ·and the easiest way would be probably to point.

·8· ·Down in this area down here, and it may have been

·9· ·here, but I'm thinking it was here because we have

10· ·moved back by then, we had a shopping cart, I

11· ·believe it was, basically turned on the side and we

12· ·stretched the drawings out.· And we were reviewing

13· ·the drawings and basically trying to transmit the

14· ·information that we have.· I'm not a hundred

15· ·percent sure if that was with Mr. Jeffreys or with

16· ·Ryan Cox.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So let me ask you this.· When you

18· ·left at 2:51, was there any sort of a plan of

19· ·attack that had been articulated to you?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe they were doing

21· ·assessments and monitoring at that point.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Assessments of what?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Of the structure.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And the persons doing the

25· ·assessment were who?

·1· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe that was Ryan Cox, and I

·2· ·don't think the Sergeant or Mr. Gillespie I think

·3· ·his name is.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, they had arrived by that

·5· ·point in time?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, okay, then it might have

·7· ·been, yeah, Mr. Gillespie, and I believe once the

·8· ·MOL and the engineer got on scene, they started

·9· ·that.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you meet Sergeant Gillespie

11· ·before you went off shift that night?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't think so.· I remember

13· ·setting up with Ryan Cox and I took him as the OPP

14· ·Incident Commander for his team or section, rescue

15· ·section, if you want to call it, as the lead, and

16· ·we clarified some things about the accountability

17· ·and him moving forward.· I know eventually his

18· ·superior come in and took over.· I don't think I

19· ·met him that night.· I can't really recall.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·When you went off shift, the TF-3,

21· ·the HUSAR team, they hadn't arrived yet?

22· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You had one team of specialists,

24· ·that is, the UCRT team from the OPP?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You were the Incident Commander?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What was your relationship between

·4· ·yourself and the UCRT team?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Good.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, I assumed it was good

·7· ·because they are there to help you, but --

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- what I meant was in a command

10· ·structure?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I was -- I believe it was clear.

12· ·Actually, Ryan I treated as the OPP Incident

13· ·Commander because he was the only one on the scene,

14· ·so and he was the rescue expert at that point so he

15· ·had the lead on the rescue.· It was a bit beyond my

16· ·capabilities.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, the term "Incident Commander"

18· ·has been used with respect to a number of people.

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Uhm-hmm.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yesterday Constable Burns was

21· ·referring to Inspector Jollymore as the Incident

22· ·Commander?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you are now -- you are

25· ·referring now to Ryan Cox as the Incident

·1· ·Commander?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you are the Incident

·4· ·Commander?

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So where does everybody fit here?

·7· ·Everybody is walking around and they are all

·8· ·Incident Commanders, but --

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, not really.· I mean, I went

10· ·through that with you before.· That is with the --

11· ·I treated it as a Unified Command, so each agency,

12· ·depending on who they are, they have an Incident

13· ·Commander.· So the EMS Chief who was there, he

14· ·actually designated Ron, his Deputy Chief, as the

15· ·Incident Commander on scene.· He didn't really

16· ·participate a whole lot because he didn't have the

17· ·participation.

18· · · · · · · ·The OPP at the start was I believe

19· ·Percy Jollymore, and when Ryan Cox showed up, and

20· ·he is the only OPP on the scene, he is to me the

21· ·Incident Commander.· I believe Mr. Jollymore was

22· ·probably gone home for the evening.

23· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, and --

24· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And actually, when Bill Neadles

25· ·came on scene, I treated him as the overall rescue

·1· ·Incident Commander.· I later found out that, no, he

·2· ·is actually working for me, so he would be in

·3· ·charge of the rescue sector.· So at this point, it

·4· ·is Ryan Cox that has the rescue sector, and he had

·5· ·no issue with that from what I remember.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Sorry, Ryan Cox had no issue?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·As being responsible for the

·9· ·rescue?

10· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, as the UCRT team.· You have

11· ·to remember, when this started I had no idea of

12· ·their existence or even what they could do.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·So it was a quick learning

15· ·experience, and I'm depending heavily on his

16· ·expertise.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Right, in terms of --

18· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Moving forward.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah, solving the problem.

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, absolutely, yeah.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·For sure.· So I want to be fair to

22· ·you here.· I gather when you went off shift that

23· ·night -- and the reason I'm framing the question

24· ·this way is what you said about Bill Neadles.· At

25· ·the start of this exercise with UCRT and HUSAR

·1· ·coming on board, you weren't -- you didn't realize

·2· ·that they reported to you; is that a fair

·3· ·statement?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·The HUSAR?

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·When we originally started, I

·7· ·treated Bill as an outside agency, as an Incident

·8· ·Commander of his section.· I was later found out

·9· ·probably near the 25th that no, he is in fact

10· ·working through -- for me through the OFM.· So that

11· ·was another thing that I had some assistance from

12· ·Bob Thorpe with.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when -- and was it

14· ·your -- did you have a similar understanding with

15· ·respect to the UCRT?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·My understanding of the UCRT,

17· ·because I had this discussion with Mr. Cox because

18· ·I didn't know how it was going to work and they

19· ·weren't -- he didn't seem overly happy.· But my

20· ·understanding is when HUSAR comes on scene, they

21· ·are bigger; they have more manpower; they can stay

22· ·longer or be on scene and self-sufficient for a

23· ·longer period of time, that they would then roll up

24· ·into HUSAR and be utilized by them.

25· · · · · · · ·He didn't seem overly happy about that,

·1· ·so --

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what you have just told us

·3· ·about the UCRT getting rolled into -- and I think

·4· ·it will help us a lot if you refer to HUSAR as

·5· ·TF-3, just so that we don't --

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I'm sorry.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Phonetically they are very close,

·8· ·and --

·9· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· I was having trouble

10· ·following you, and that is why I was looking at the

11· ·screen here.· They sound the same phonetically.

12· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, I'm sorry.· And that

13· ·is through the notes for the scribe and everybody

14· ·else, some of the spelling WE have got USAR with a

15· ·"U", and we didn't know the terms.

16· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So when we want to refer to the

18· ·HUSAR, we'll call them TF-3, and when we want to

19· ·refer to the OPP team, we'll call them UCRT, okay?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, okay.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So the idea of the UCRT being

22· ·folded into the TF-3, was that something that Ryan

23· ·Cox told you or is that something that you were

24· ·expecting to happen and you told him that?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No, that is what he told me.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I don't want to put words in

·2· ·your mouth, but can you, as best you can, tell us

·3· ·what he said?· Was he saying this is the way it is

·4· ·supposed to work, or this is the way it always

·5· ·happens, or this is the way it is?· Do you

·6· ·remember?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was more like, and I can't

·8· ·remember if it was -- and it could have been with

·9· ·one of the other officers there, that you know,

10· ·yeah, when they come on scene, they'll be taking

11· ·over.· There was some discussion about their

12· ·command structure, Sergeants versus so and so. I

13· ·believe Bill Neadles is a Staff Sergeant --

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·He is a Staff -- no, no, he is a

15· ·Staff Inspector.

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay, so he is higher ranked.· But

17· ·the definite impression was that they will be taken

18· ·over and rolled into the HUSAR.· And I don't know

19· ·how else I can tell you that, because the entire --

20· ·and the only reason I bring it up, the entire

21· ·event, and this wasn't I would say anything bad,

22· ·this is the only I guess I would call it a gripe

23· ·that I heard.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that was what my next question

25· ·was going to be.· This was said with a bad taste in

·1· ·their mouth, this business of getting rolled up in

·2· ·HUSAR or TF-3?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I don't think they liked it.

·4· ·I didn't understand the structure, and I just

·5· ·accepted it for what it was.· So all I'm looking

·6· ·for is help; I don't care how it comes.· And if

·7· ·they get rolled up, that is fine.· I honestly can't

·8· ·see it any other way because you can't have two

·9· ·competing teams and two separate -- somebody had

10· ·the -- one expert has to be running that show, and

11· ·they have that sector.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And throughout the time that the

13· ·two teams were there, that is exactly how it was,

14· ·was it not, that was that the overall -- the

15· ·command of the rescue operation was the TF-3

16· ·Commander?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· It was clear that

18· ·essentially the way it went -- because I wasn't on

19· ·scene when HUSAR showed up.· I did get the phone

20· ·call and I came down as soon as I could.· But he

21· ·had the rescue sector, so total control, planning

22· ·and in charge of it.· It is totally out of my

23· ·element.· Our position at that point was

24· ·accountability and logistics and to make anything

25· ·that they required happen.· Some of that was

·1· ·ordering equipment, site prep, moving forward,

·2· ·supplying manpower, whatever we needed to do we did

·3· ·to help move the objectives forward.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Your service was there to be of

·5· ·assistance, whatever shape that took, to the rescue

·6· ·operation?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·The command, the overall command

·9· ·of the rescue itself, and I am not talking about

10· ·you and your position, but the rescuers, the TF-3

11· ·and UCRT, the overall command of that appeared to

12· ·be Bill Neadles?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Bill had the rescue sector.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Right.

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in going forward, when we get

17· ·there, it appears that at any time that there is a

18· ·meeting on decision-making from the rescuer's side,

19· ·it is the TF-3 people that you are consulting with,

20· ·not the UCRT people?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So when you went off shift

23· ·and you knew that the TF-3 were going to be

24· ·arriving probably while you were at home, it was

25· ·your expectation that when you came back, number

·1· ·one, they would be there, and number two, that TF-3

·2· ·would be in charge of the rescue?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And if we look at your --

·5· ·on that page, you are back on scene at about 6:37

·6· ·in the morning, if you could look down there?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And you will see that at 7:15 the

·9· ·Fire Chief -- you have got "HUSAR IC [...]", and I

10· ·take it that is Bill Neadles?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] Tony HUSAR [...]", and that

13· ·is Tony Comella?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] Bob Thorpe OFM [...]"?

16· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Right.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·"[...] entered North side of

18· · · · · · · ·structure and HUSAR [TF-3] explained

19· · · · · · · ·process for making a safe work platform

20· · · · · · · ·for rescue operations".

21· · · · · · · ·So can you tell us how it was explained

22· ·to you what this is?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· And just before you

25· ·do, you had gone back home?

·1· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, I think I left about

·2· ·3 o'clock.

·3· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· 3 o'clock, so you

·4· ·didn't get much sleep.· Did you get any sleep?

·5· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Maybe a couple of hours.

·6· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· A couple of hours,

·7· ·okay.· Thank you, go ahead and answer Mr. Wallace's

·8· ·question.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'll take you back just a

10· ·tiny bit before that.

11· · · · · · · ·Back when we were on scene at the

12· ·original part of the call after I came out of

13· ·the -- got a look at the collapse area.

14· · · · · · · ·BY MR. WALLACE:

15· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You mean the time you went in with

16· ·Bruce Ewald?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·When we came back out, we had that

20· ·discussion, and it is somewhat important, at least

21· ·to me anyway, that I remember having this

22· ·discussion with Bruce.· And I mean, we have both

23· ·been around a little bit, and we were just

24· ·scratching our head on that whole escalator and I

25· ·remember saying to him, I have absolutely no idea

·1· ·how they are going to support that escalator.

·2· · · · · · · ·The importance of that is I found out

·3· ·the next morning and the reason why is they looked

·4· ·at that and they said that is a no-go zone, and

·5· ·that is it.· That is as fast as it was for them, so

·6· ·that there was no way that you could support that

·7· ·escalator without putting people in great peril

·8· ·underneath it to be able to do that.

·9· · · · · · · ·When we got to the back, the back, the

10· ·whole idea was to be able to support basically the

11· ·section under the hotel was probably structurally

12· ·the most sound at that point, or at least I guess

13· ·that is what their determination was.· And they

14· ·have had the opportunity before I got on scene I

15· ·guess to get a look and to come up with their plan.

16· ·And the whole idea was that that would be their --

17· ·basically their entry point and their safe side,

18· ·because the rest was not safe.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And this you are referring to is

20· ·the hotel lobby area?

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And which by that decision, that

24· ·created a lot of logistical items that they needed,

25· ·skid steers and items like that to remove the

·1· ·debris.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·What is a skid steer?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It is a small tractor that is

·4· ·probably -- you know the four-wheel ones that can

·5· ·actually turn around and there is a small bucket on

·6· ·it.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·They needed a specific one I

·9· ·think, if I remember right, with clamps.· It is

10· ·probably in the notes someplace.· They needed

11· ·specific things because it was very -- a smaller

12· ·area.· They had to use the loading docks out the

13· ·back to get equipment in and move it forward there.

14· · · · · · · ·So I don't think they were, the

15· ·impression I got is that they were wholly looking

16· ·at the crane operation.· They were looking at a

17· ·number of fronts, and although that pile was almost

18· ·a full storey in height, I believe that they were

19· ·attempting to remove debris that way as well.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Speaking of cranes, the evidence

21· ·will be was that the crane company was contacted at

22· ·about 11:15 on the night of the 23rd.· Were you

23· ·aware of that?· When you got back on scene on

24· ·Sunday morning, were you aware that a crane had

25· ·been ordered and was in the process of making its

·1· ·way to Elliot Lake?

·2· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Somewhere in there I found out

·3· ·that the crane was ordered because I ended up

·4· ·trying to verify that it was --

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes, that is --

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·-- the size that was required.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·That was a little later in the

·8· ·morning.

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·But is that when you became aware

11· ·of the fact that the crane has been ordered?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know if that came as a

13· ·situational update when I got back on the scene, or

14· ·if I have even spoken to John Thomas who was still

15· ·in command at that point.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did the chaps at this meeting at

17· ·7:15, they told you they are going to go and use

18· ·the north end at the hotel lobby as the base from

19· ·which --

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·"Safe platform" I believe was the

21· ·words they used.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Safe platform?

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·At least that was --

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Where they start; correct?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, there is a meeting

·2· ·right after that at 7:43.· Yourself, Bill Neadles,

·3· ·Tony Comella, the engineer that was attached with

·4· ·Task Force 3 and the MOL engineer, and I presume

·5· ·that to be Mr. Jeffreys again?

·6· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And it says:

·8· · · · · · · · · "Strategy meeting and situation

·9· · · · · · · ·update."

10· · · · · · · ·Were you appraised at this point in

11· ·time what the plan of attack was?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·It was probably adding on to what

13· ·we were discussing in the back of the building.· We

14· ·were getting down more into the logistics of

15· ·probably what was being needed to move that

16· ·forward.

17· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay, but what was needed to move

18· ·it forward is one thing.· Did they tell you what

19· ·they planned to do?

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Shoring in the back.· You mean the

21· ·overall what they --

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, once -- the purpose of the

23· ·shoring is to make this safe work platform;

24· ·correct?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So that they know that there is a

·2· ·place they can be and it is structurally sound?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Placing the shoring in and of

·7· ·itself isn't going to save anybody.· There needs to

·8· ·be more done?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that is the part I'm

11· ·interested in.· What did they say they were going

12· ·to do to effect a rescue, if one was possible?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know if we got past the

14· ·shoring part.· I know eventually somewhere

15· ·discussion came to get the beam out of there.

16· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry?

17· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Get the beam, the hanging beam --

18· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·-- out of there.· I just don't

20· ·know if it is at that particular meeting or if it

21· ·was a little later on.

22· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And are you familiar with the -- I

23· ·am sure you are familiar with the term "Incident

24· ·Action Plan"?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·At either the 7:15 meeting or the

·2· ·7:43 meeting was there ever talk of an Incident

·3· ·Action Plan?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Boy, you are really going to

·5· ·stretch my memory here.· I'm not sure.· I know that

·6· ·they were talking about at least a 12-hour window

·7· ·that the shoring is going to -- it will take that

·8· ·long to get the shoring done.

·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And that shoring you are talking

10· ·about is shoring of the safe work platform, the

11· ·hotel lobby?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

13· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So if I have got it right then, it

14· ·would be 12 hours before there would be -- before

15· ·they would have the safe work area, so which in

16· ·turn would mean it would be 12 hours before they

17· ·would actually move forward into the building to do

18· ·anything to actually effect the rescue?

19· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

21· · · · · · · ·A.· ·And this is the part where when we

22· ·were in that building that I had the little bit of

23· ·letdown on how things are going to proceed, and it

24· ·was going to be long and slow.· They may have got

25· ·into more detail.· I just -- I'm not -- I can't

·1· ·recall.

·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You are the Incident Commander;

·3· ·correct?

·4· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And as I have understood the

·6· ·principles of the Incident Management System, the

·7· ·Incident Commander is the person that has to

·8· ·ultimately approve an Incident Action Plan?

·9· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any recollection of,

11· ·number one, an Incident Action Plan?

12· · · · · · · ·A.· ·On here, no.· And I will back up a

13· ·little bit here.· I gave Bill Neadles the free rein

14· ·on the rescue.· He is the expert.· It is way beyond

15· ·my capabilities.· I had the impression the team

16· ·knew what they were doing, and that process I

17· ·didn't get into the details to the extent that you

18· ·are asking.

19· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

20· · · · · · · ·A.· ·So I had the broad strokes.

21· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, I'll just continue on this

22· ·line here for a second.

23· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.

24· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·You don't recall an Incident

25· ·Action Plan.· You -- at least as I have understood

·1· ·it, you have essentially turned over the reins as

·2· ·Incident Commander on that aspect, that is, the --

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Just the rescue sector, yes.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·On the rescue sector --

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- to Bill Neadles?

·7· · · · · · · ·A.· ·That's correct.

·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·So you never -- nobody sought your

·9· ·approval, nor did you give your approval to an

10· ·Incident Action Plan?

11· · · · · · · ·A.· ·No.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is that correct?

13· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I believe so.

14· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.

15· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I mean, they kept me in the loop

16· ·on exactly what was moving forward.· I wouldn't say

17· ·exactly, but I didn't know the nitty-gritty details

18· ·of exactly how they are going to do it.· I had the

19· ·broad strokes.

20· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, what about telling us what

21· ·was going to happen once they have built their safe

22· ·work platform?· You have told us that when you got

23· ·this time estimate of 12 hours, you were really

24· ·quite surprised?

25· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And I assume you were somewhat

·2· ·disappointed too?

·3· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, absolutely.

·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.

·5· · · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.

·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you say to him, okay, what are

·7· ·you going to do then?

·8· · · · · · · ·A.· ·We probably had that discussion

·9· ·and it would be to remove debris.· I mean, that is

10· ·the whole point, was to have a safe platform so

11· ·that the men can get in there and remove debris.

12· · · · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you have any idea how they

13· ·were going to remove the debris?

14· · · · · · · ·A.· ·I know we were ordering equipment

15· ·to help them move debris, so which was the skid

16· ·steers and cable and different things that they

17· ·needed.· I don't know if the -- at that point if

18· ·the crane was part of that plan.

19· · · · · · · ·MR. WALLACE:· Okay, this is a good time

20· ·to stop.

21· · · · · · · ·THE COMMISSIONER:· All right,

22· ·Mr. Wallace, I think we can safely stop there and

23· ·start again tomorrow morning.

24· · · · · · · ·Chief, we'll see you at 9 o'clock

25· ·tomorrow morning.· Thank you.

·1

·2· ·-- Adjourned at 5:01 p.m.

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·1· · · · · · · · ·REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

·2

·3· · · · · · · · · ·I, DEANA SANTEDICOLA, RPR, CRR,

·4· ·CSR, Certified Shorthand Reporter, certify:

·5· · · · · · · · · ·That the foregoing proceedings were

·6· ·taken before me at the time and place therein set

·7· ·forth;

·8· · · · · · · · · ·That the testimony of the witness

·9· ·and all objections made at the time of the

10· ·examination were recorded stenographically by me

11· ·and were thereafter transcribed;

12· · · · · · · · · ·That the foregoing is a true and

13· ·correct transcript of my shorthand notes so taken.

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17· · · · · · · ·Dated this 21st day of August, 2013.

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20· · · · · · · ·___________________________________

21· · · · · · · ·NEESON & ASSOCIATES

22· · · · · · · ·COURT REPORTING AND CAPTIONING INC.

23· · · · · · · ·PER:· ·DEANA SANTEDICOLA, RPR, CRR, CSR

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