20170324, Unrevised House Debate - Friday March 24, …ttparliament.org/hansards/hh20170324.pdf · 1 Leave of Absence 2017.03.24 UNREVISED HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Friday, March 24,

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Leave of Absence 2017.03.24

UNREVISED

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Friday, March 24, 2017

The House met at 1.30 p.m.

PRAYERS

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, Dr. Fuad Khan MP, Member for Barataria/San

Juan; Miss Marlene McDonald MP, Member for Port of Spain South; hon.

Fitzgerald Hinds MP, Member for Laventille West; Mr. Esmond Forde MP,

Member for Tunapuna; Mr. Rushton Paray MP, Member for Mayaro; and hon. Dr.

Nyan Gadsby-Dolly MP, Member for St. Ann’s East have requested leave of

absence from today’s sitting of the House. The leave which the Members seek is

granted.

PAPERS LAID

1. Annual Audited Financial Statements of the Vehicle Management

Corporation of Trinidad and Tobago Limited for the year ended September

30, 2013. [The Minister of Finance (Hon. Colm Imbert)]

To be referred to the Public Accounts (Enterprises) Committee.

2. Administrative Report of the Trinidad and Tobago Free Zones Company

Limited for the year ended December 31, 2015. [The Minister of Planning

and Development (Hon. Camille Robinson-Regis)]

3. Second Report of the Committee to review the levels of health care delivery

by the Regional Health Authorities and to rationalize the System of Public

Sector Doctors in Private Practice. [The Minister of Health (Hon. Terrence

Deyalsingh)]

lhope

Sticky Note

Unofficial Hansard This transcript of parliamentary proceedings is an unofficial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general reference purposes only. The final edited version of the Hansard will be published when available.

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Urgent Questions 2017.03.24

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URGENT QUESTIONS

Chaguanas Government Primary School

(Remedy for Sewer Problems)

Mr. Ganga Singh (Chaguanas West): In light of newspaper reports, what

measures will be taken to remedy the sewer problems at the Chaguanas

Government Primary School?

The Minister of Education (Hon. Anthony Garcia): Madam Speaker, the

problem at the Chaguanas Government Primary School originated because of

defective pumps. At present as I speak the contractor is on site, the defective pump

has been removed, a temporary pump has been installed and two new pumps have

been purchased which will be installed over the weekend. So the school should be

up and running by Monday.

Mr. Singh: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Supplemental: As the Minister is

aware, Chaguanas Government Primary School is one of the best-performing

government primary schools in the country. Therefore, can you give the assurance,

with the installation of these two pumps that you would not have this problem

recurring again?

Hon. A. Garcia: Madam Speaker, it is very difficult to give such reassurances,

because this very school the sewer system was revamped about one year ago. The

Ministry of Education spent an exorbitant amount of money to ensure that the

sewer system would have been functioning properly. These things happen, and

unfortunately I cannot give an assurance that it will not recur.

Mr. Singh: What measures will you take, hon. Minister, to ensure that this does

not negatively impact upon the SEA students, having regard to your non-assurance

response? [Laughter]

Hon. A. Garcia: Madam Speaker, that is a difficult question to answer. I cannot

climb into the students’ minds to say how they would perform. That is too difficult

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for me to answer.

Waterloo High School

(School-based Management Plan)

Mr. Fazal Karim (Chaguanas East): Question to the Minister of Education: Can

the hon. Minister state whether the Waterloo High School has a school-based

management plan that includes children’s safety?


Waterloo High School indeed has a school-based management plan as, indeed, all

schools in Trinidad and Tobago have the school-based management plan. In fact,

if I could go a little further, at the Ministry of Education we have been having

discussions with our principals to ensure that they understand the plan and the plan

is rolled out so that the entire school community will be able to be familiar with the

plan. The plan includes the safety of the students, as we have been saying over and

over. The safety of students is the paramount responsibility of the principal and,

therefore, any plan involving any aspect of school life must take into consideration

the safety of the students.

Mr. Karim: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given that answer, hon. Minister,

could you indicate how then a hole which exists in the fence at that school, for over

a year now, continues to allow students and unauthorized persons to enter and exit

the compound?

Hon. A. Garcia: Madam Speaker, unfortunately I cannot provide an answer to

that question. Investigations are still going on, and until those investigations are

completed I will not be in a position to answer.

Heritage and Stabilisation Fund

(Project Financed from)

Dr. Bhoendradatt Tewarie (Caroni Central): Thank you very much, Madam

Speaker. Can The Minister of Finance indicate the most important project that will

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be financed from the 1.7 billion withdrawal from the Heritage and Stabilisation

Fund?

The Minister of Finance (Hon. Colm Imbert): Madam Speaker, as the Member

for Caroni Central should know, money is fungible; it is interchangeable. It can be

used for different purposes, and therefore the withdrawal will be used for the entire

PSIP.

Dr. Tewarie: I just wanted to know what is the major project and how much—

Madam Speaker: Member, Member. Is this a supplemental question?

Dr. Tewarie: Yes. Minister, I understand that clearly, and that is fine. I just

wanted to know if there was a major project that part of this money would be used

for, in order to make an assessment of what would be the value of this project.

Hon. C. Imbert: Madam Speaker, I repeat, money is fungible. If the hon.

Member would go to the budget documents he would see a suite of projects

totalling $5.1 billion. The money would be spent on all of them; “all important”.

[Desk thumping]

Trinidad and Tobago Police Service

(Procedure for Missing Persons)

Dr. Lackram Bodoe (Fyzabad): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Question to the

Minister of National Security: Given the recent increase in the number of missing

persons, some of whom eventually turn up dead, could the hon. Minister inform

this House what are the procedures employed by the police service when missing

persons are reported/filed?

The Minister of National Security (Hon. Maj. Gen. Edmund Dillon): Thank

you, Madam Speaker. Immediately when a report is received the matter is treated

with the highest level of priority. There are clear standing operating procedures to

all officers for investigating cases of missing persons. A team of investigators

comprising members of the Anti-kidnapping Unit, members of the Criminal

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Investigation Department and the Criminal Records Office are despatched to

obtain all relevant information and the circumstances surrounding the

disappearance. Information pertinent to issues such as photographs, clothing, last

person spoken to or last person to see the missing person are in fact investigated.

Assistance is also co-opted through the Strategic Services Agency and the

Trinidad and Tobago Defence Force as required. Partnering with business

communities, for example, the use of electronic billboards, owners are asked to put

up portrait pictures of the missing persons on their respective billboards. This

supports the police initiative to locate these persons and encourage public

involvement. Additionally, the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service continues to

encourage parents and guardians to build relationships and open communication

with their children.

Dr. Bodoe: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Minister, could you specifically state, is

it standard operating practice for there to be a 24-hour period before an

investigation starts?

Hon. Maj. Gen. E. Dillon: Madam Speaker, investigation commences

immediately on the report of a missing person.

Mr. Singh: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon. Minister, having regard to today’s

newspaper report, it is clear that the standard operating procedures were not

followed with respect to Sharlene Soomai.

Madam Speaker: Member, is that a question?

Mr. Singh: Yes; whether the standing operating procedures were followed with

respect to the missing person report of Sharlene Soomai?

Hon. Maj. Gen. E. Dillon: Madam Speaker, the Trinidad and Tobago Police

Service reacts immediately on the report of a missing person.

Santa Rita Roman Catholic Primary School

(Student Violence)

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Mr. Barry Padarath (Princes Town): Madam Speaker, through you to the hon.

Minister of Education. In light of the recent protest action by parents at the Santa

Rita Roman Catholic Primary School, could the Minister indicate what measures

have been put in place by the Ministry to deal with the reports of violence

exhibited by students towards their peers and their teachers?

The Minister of Education (Hon. Anthony Garcia): Madam Speaker, my first

response to this question is that only one student has been identified by the school

who has been exhibiting this type of behaviour. It is not widespread. It is not

associated with more than one student. That is the first question.

The second point I want to make is that we at the Ministry of Education have

been working with all the stakeholders. I would like to compliment the Member

for Mayaro in whose constituency this school resides, who has been working with

the Ministry of Education to bring about a solution to this problem. We have been

told that that one student is suffering from what is referred to as oppositional

defiant disorder. This is what we have been told. [Crosstalk]

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

Hon. A. Garcia: We have assigned officers from our Student Support Services to

the school, who are at present having discussions with the school authorities and

also with the parents. These are the measures we have put in place to ensure that

that child who is crying out for help receives the requisite attention.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Padarath: Madam Speaker, through you to the hon. Minister. Minister, in

light of your statements that an 11-year-old primary school student is incapable of

exhibiting violent or sexual behaviour towards his peers and teachers, could the

Minister indicate—[Interruption]

Madam Speaker: Member! Member! I would like everybody to recognize that I

am on my legs. Member, if you face this way then you would see when I stand.

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Could you ask a question please?

Mr. Padarath: Yes, Madam. I am asking, in light of the Minister’s statement that

dealt with this particular matter indicating that an 11-year-old child is incapable of

exhibiting these violent actions, whether the Minister has now retracted and

apologized for those statements in light of the information he has now provided to

the House?

Madam Speaker: I will not allow that question.

T&T Exchange Rate

(Government’s Steps to Stabilize)

Mr. Rodney Charles (Naparima): Thank you, Madam Speaker. To the Minister

of Finance: In light of the continued lack of availability of US currency and the

resultant weakening of our exchange rate, could the Minister identify what

immediate steps the Government has taken to stabilize and/or increase the strength

of our exchange rate?

The Minister of Finance and Acting Minister of Energy and Energy Industries

(Hon. Colm Imbert): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Perhaps the Member for

Naparima was absent when in the mid-year review I indicated that the dollar would

be adjusted by approximately 7 per cent in 2016. It is therefore incorrect to speak

about a weakening of the exchange rate.

Mr. Charles: Madam Speaker, I was referring to weakening of the foreign

exchange rate in the context of the fact—

Madam Speaker: Question.

Mr. Charles: Could the Minister explain why is it difficult to get foreign

exchange for the citizens of this country?

Hon. C. Imbert: Again, perhaps the Member was absent during the last two

budget addresses and during the mid-year review, when I indicated that the

revenues from petroleum, which is our primary source of foreign exchange, have

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declined by 92 per cent, from $19 billion to $2 billion.

Mr. Lee: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A supplemental: Would the Minister of

Finance consider reverting to the policy distribution or the exchange distribution of

the past Governor Jwala Rambarran?

Hon. C. Imbert: Absolutely not.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The Minister of Planning and Development (Hon. Camille Robinson-Regis):

Thank you very kindly, Madam Speaker. There are four questions on the Order

Paper, we will answer all four. I would like to point out that there are no written

questions, and we look forward to receiving same from the Members of the

Opposition.

Thank you very kindly.

Commissioner of Police

(Update on Appointment)

57. Dr. Lackram Bodoe (Fyzabad) asked the hon. Minister of Public

Administration and Communications:

Further to the response provided to a Prime Minister’s Question on July 04,

2016, could the Minister provide an update on the status of the appointment

of a Commissioner of Police?

The Minister of National Security (Hon. Maj. Gen. Edmund Dillon): Madam

Speaker, the Police Service Commission commenced the recruitment process for

the offices of Commissioner of Police and Deputy Commissioner of Police in

2016, following the proclamation of Legal Notices No. 218 and 219 of 2015. In

April 2016, High Court Action HCACV 2016-01218 was brought by Mr. Harridath

Maraj against the Attorney General of Trinidad and Tobago, challenging, inter alia,

the constitutionality of the process in Legal Notice 218 of 2015.

The commission received legal advice and decided to proceed with the

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Oral Answers to Questions 2017.03.24

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selection process, after which a request for proposal was issued to two firms on

June 10, 2016. The proposals were received from the two firms on July 01, 2016

and the evaluation of the proposals was completed on July 04, 2016. However, on

July 14, 2016, the judgment was delivered in the High Court matter whereby the

court struck out certain parts of Legal Notice No. 218 of 2015 which was declared

unconstitutional, after which the commission considered legal advice and decided

to proceed with the recruitment and selection process for the offices of

Commissioner of Police and Deputy Commissioner of Police, by open tender. As

such, a tender notice was issued in the daily newspaper on October 30, 2016 and

November 01, 2016. Although 10 firms expressed interest, only four firms

responded to the request for proposals.

On November 25, 2016, the commission began consideration of the report of

the evaluation committee to assess the proposals. During the process, three

members of the commission’s term of office expired on December 28, 2016 and as

such the commission was not duly constituted to carry on the recruitment process.

On February 01, 2017 a member of the Police Service Commission was

sworn in, and on February 02, 2017 the commission held its first statutory meeting

whereby the decision was taken that the Chairman, Police Service Commission,

send a letter to the firm which was successfully selected and thereafter, the

Director of Personnel Administration, to enter into negotiations with the firm. The

letter to the firm was issued on February 03, 2017.

Four persons have been identified to serve as members of the team to engage

in the process of negotiating with the selected firm. The Police Service

Commission was requested to indicate whether it has any objections to the

composition of the negotiating team. The outcome of the team’s first meeting is

being awaited, Madam Speaker.

Dr. Bodoe: Thank you, Minister. Could you give the country any indication as to

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when this process might finally be completed?

Hon. Maj. Gen. E. Dillon: Madam Speaker, that is beyond my control. It purely

lies in the remit of the Police Service Commission.

Mr. Singh: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Could the Minister indicate, in the

interest of transparency, the firm selected and the persons comprising the

negotiating team?

Hon. Maj. Gen. E. Dillon: Madam Speaker, I do not have that information; that

lies with the Police Service Commission, which is constitutionally a separate body.

Gang Activity

(Details of)

73. Mrs. Vidia Gayadeen-Gopeesingh (Oropouche West) asked the hon.

Minister of National Security:

Could the Minister state, with reference to the period September 2011 to

January 2017:

a) the number of gangs operating in Trinidad and Tobago;

b) the number of youths involved in such gang activity; and

c) the number of youths charged under the Anti-Gang Act, 2011?

The Minister of National Security (Hon. Maj. Gen. Edmund Dillon): Thank

you, Madam Speaker. Hon. Members, according to the Anti-Gang Act, 2011,

section 4(1), a gang is defined as:

“a combination of two or more persons, whether formally or informally

organized, that, through its membership or through an agent, engages in any

gang-related activity;”

The Trinidad and Tobago Police Service established the Criminal Gang and

Intelligence Unit in 2012 to fulfil the requirements of the Anti-Gang Act of 2011.

This unit has collected some data on the number of gangs and their membership,

but prior to 2014 there was no centralized reporting for this type of data. The data

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right now, the number of gangs between the period ranges from 92 to 179, and the

membership which of course is approximate, just between 1,500 to 1,600.

Part (b), it is estimated that approximately 54 youths, young people, were

involved in gang activities over the period. For the period 2011 to January 2017,

six persons under the age of 18 were charged under the Anti-Gang Act of 2011.

Mrs. Gayadeen-Gopeesingh: Supplemental question, hon. Minister. What steps

are taken to track and monitor the gang members’ activities?

Hon. Maj. Gen. E. Dillon: Madam Speaker, the Criminal Gang and Intelligence

Unit deals with issues pertinent to gangs and their membership.

Economic Sector of Trinidad and Tobago

(Details of)

76. Mrs. Vidia Gayadeen-Gopeesingh (Oropouche West) asked the hon.

Minister of Finance:

Could the Minister state, with reference to the period September 07, 2015 to

January 2017:

a) the percentage decrease in each economic sector of Trinidad and

Tobago;

b) the net increase in borrowing in United States and Trinidad and

Tobago currencies; and

c) the percentage increase in the debt to gross domestic product ratio?

The Minister of Finance and Acting Minister of Energy and Energy Industries

(Hon. Colm Imbert): Thank you, Madam Speaker. For the benefit of the hon.

Member, the Members of the House and the national population specifically, I

think it is necessary to clear up any misconception as to which agency is

responsible for national statistics.

According to section 6 and Schedule one of the Statistics Act, Chap. 19:02,

the Statistical Department, also known as the CSO, is responsible for collecting

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statistics on primary and secondary production in Trinidad and Tobago, among

other things, specifically gross domestic product. The CSO is thus the only official

source of economic data in Trinidad and Tobago by law.

It is a matter of public record that the CSO collects and publishes data on

GDP on an annual basis and not on a monthly basis. Current available data on

GDP is thus for fiscal 2016. Further, the data on GDP for all sectors and

subsectors of the economy for fiscal 2016—that is, up to September 2016—is in

the public domain and is available in the Review of the Economy 2016, a budget

document that was laid in this House on September 30, 2016 and given to each

Member of Parliament. The data is also available on the Ministry of Finance’s

website.

With respect to part (b), the net public sector debt at the end of September

2015 was $77.34 billion, and at the end of December 2016 the net public sector

debt was $87.44 billion, an increase of $10 billion over the period. Within that

total public debt, external debt totalled $13.76 billion at the end of September

2015, and $21.53 billion at the end of December 2016, an increase of $7.7 billion,

within the overall increase of $10 billion.

With respect to part (c), the debt to domestic product ratio was 50.9 per cent

at the end of September 2015, and 59.5 per cent at the end of December 2016.

Madam Speaker: Member for Naparima.

Mr. Charles: I defer.

(Early Childhood Care and Education Centre)

(Sonny Ladoo Trace Development)

80. Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh (Couva South) asked the hon. Minister of

Education:

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Further to the response provided to Question 30 on January 13, 2017, could

the Minister provide an update on the opening date of the Early Childhood

Care and Education Centre at the Sonny Ladoo Trace Development?


construction of the Sunny Ladoo Trace Government ECCE centre is 100 per cent

completed, while external works are 98 per cent completed. Work was halted on

the projects due to the non-payment of outstanding invoices to the contractor and

the consultant, totalling approximately $9.3 million. Consequently, statutory

approvals from the Water and Sewerage Authority, the Ministry of Works and

Transport and the regional corporation cannot be obtained. As with several other

unfinished projects under the purview of the Ministry of Education, action is being

taken to identify funds for the payment of the outstanding sums and for completion

of the project.

Mr. Indarsingh: Madam Speaker, I would like to know from the Minister of

Education why statutory approvals cannot be obtained when the school is 100 per

cent completed?

Hon. A. Garcia: Madam Speaker, from what I understand, before a final

completion certificate is presented, one must get assurances from the regional

corporation, the Ministry of Works and Transport and other relevant authorities to

ensure that everything has been complied with.

I stated that the building itself is 100 per cent completed, but there are still

other things that must be done, and I have been told that these are some of the

reasons why the statutory approvals cannot be given at this time.

Mr. Indarsingh: Madam Speaker, is the Minister aware that the current property

is being overrun with bushes and the fact that the private security on the compound

has been withdrawn, and the school compound and property is being vandalized at

this point in time?

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Hon. A. Garcia: Madam Speaker, I do not have such information.

Mr. Indarsingh: Madam Speaker, as the Member of Parliament for Couva South,

I am very familiar with the territory, and I am so advising the Minister.

Madam Speaker: Is that a question?

Mr. Indarsingh: That is a response in terms of what he has stated.

DEFINITE URGENT MATTER

(LEAVE)

National Blood Bank

(Infected Blood)

Dr. Tim Gopeesingh (Caroni East): Madam Speaker, I kindly seek your leave to

move the adjournment of the House today, under Standing Order 17, for the

purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance namely, the

failure of the Ministry of Health and the Government to establish confidence and

alleviate serious fears and apprehensions existing in the medical and nursing

professions, and in patients and families in both public and private health

institutions.

The matter is definite because thousands of infants, children and patients

who have received whole blood and blood products transfusions recently, and in

addition to those who are now receiving and those that are to receive in the future

at our nation’s health institutions, are presently in panic and experiencing serious

emotional and psychological trauma from the possibility of contracting HIV

infection secondary to transfusion, similar to the three citizens—one child and two

adults—who have contracted HIV-infected blood from the National Blood Bank.

The matter is urgent since the three patients contracted HIV infection at Eric

Williams Medical Sciences Complex.

The Ministry of Health and the Government must, as of today, inform the

population what they have done and must do to prevent such serious life-

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Definite Urgent Matter (Leave) 2017.03.24

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sentencing infections from ever occurring again.

The matter is of public importance because each and every one of us is at

risk, either having received blood or possibly be in need of surgical procedures and

medical management where blood transfusions are needed.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I am not satisfied that this matter qualifies

under this Standing Order. I advise that the Member pursue this matter under

Standing Order 16.

2.00 p.m.

UNEMPLOYMENT CHALLENGES

(GOVERNMENT’S PLAN TO GUIDE COUNTRY)

[Second Day]

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on question [January 27, 2017]:

Be it resolved that this House take note of the rising levels of

unemployment, growing poverty and deteriorating living standards through

the imposition of a wage restraint/freeze policy on the working people; and

Be it further resolved that this House condemn the Government for its

failure to deal with the current unemployment challenges and to present a

clear and cogent economic plan to guide the country through these

challenges.

Question again proposed.

Madam Speaker: The Members of the House who have contributed to this debate

thus far: Mr. Rudranath Indarsingh, MP; Hon. Colm Imbert, MP; Mr. Fazal Karim,

MP; Hon. Fitzgerald Hinds, MP; Mr. Barry Padarath, MP. Member for Caroni

Central.

Dr. Bhoendradatt Tewarie (Caroni Central): [Desk thumping] Thank you very

much, Madam Speaker. I take this opportunity to make a contribution in this

debate in which the resolution is as follows:

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Unemployment Challenges 2017.03.24

Dr. B. Tewarie

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Be it resolved that this House take note of the rising levels of

unemployment, growing poverty and deteriorating living standards through

the imposition of a wage restraint/freeze policy on the working people; and

—the second part:

Be it further resolved that this House condemn the Government for its

failure to deal with the current unemployment challenges and to present a

clear and cogent economic plan to guide the country through these

challenges.

I want to take this opportunity to commend my colleague, the Member for Couva

South for bringing this Motion [Desk thumping] before this honourable House.

Madam Speaker, this Government has been in office for 18 months, one and

a half years of time, and what we have seen passing over these one and a half years

or 18 months is that not only has time passed but a world of opportunity has not

been seized. [Desk thumping] And because of that you might say we have lost the

time and we have lost the opportunities that were available during that particular

period. And I will explain a little bit as I go on.

The attendant conditions identified by the Member for Couva South, the

issue, for instance, of rising levels of unemployment are real. They are reinforced

by the figures of the CSO and they are also articulated in the economic report

recently published by the Central Bank. And the truth is that the CSO cannot keep

up with the rising rate of unemployment, not because of any deficiency in the

CSO, but because of the fact that there is always a time lag between the numbers

that the report, which are generally two quarters before, and the time that a report

is actually given.

So that we have a situation, Madam Speaker, in which the unemployment is

way above the 4 per cent that is now being articulated and now being given as the

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Unemployment Challenges (cont’d) 2017.03.24

Dr. B. Tewarie (cont’d)

UNREVISED

official figure. And we can see that in the closure of businesses and I want to say

that the closure of businesses are not only in the state or public sector, they are also

in the private sector.

We have seen this in the reduction of the workforce by the private sector as

well and we have seen it in the closure of many, many, government institutions

under the charge of this Government of our time over the last 18 months. I think

the latest ones were the TDC and this is kind of strange too, when you take into

account that tourism is articulated by this Government as a major area for growth

and diversification. We have also seen it in the Caroni Green, the announcement

on Caroni Green that it will be closed and we have since learnt that, in fact, there is

a grant to support this agricultural initiative and as we know both the saving of

foreign exchange and the need for increased production in agriculture are very

important parts of the articulated strategy by Government for development of the

country.

So the unemployment is very real, it is growing and it puts large numbers of

people under pressure. The Central Bank report indicates that basically 16,000

people less are employed between the quarter reported for before and the last

quarter on which it reports and as I indicated since there is a lag of two quarters,

six months, the chances are that there are more people who have lost their jobs and

are outside of the work market than the report actually articulates.

The resolution also talks about the issue of poverty. There is a poverty

report which indicates that poverty is pretty high in the country, but I think all of us

know from common sense, from the fact of rising unemployment, from the reality

of a wage constraint, from the reality of growing inflation and especially food

inflation, by the reduced social welfare services that are available and the social

welfare benefits, and the loss of income by people either by reduced wages or by

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loss of jobs. I think the story is very clear that you have more and more people

moving into poverty or finding themselves in a situation where they are less able to

cope financially with the reality of living and looking after their families.

I think in this country it is becoming clear that over the last 18 months that

wage earners are in fact the hardest hit, because the pressure of high prices and

suppressed income is a problem for them. Wage dependant people are also very

strongly hit, because if you do not have multiple sources of income or if you have

to use your time not just to look after your family but to earn for them, it is very,

very, difficult to find alternative or supplementary sources of income. And so the

working group of people in this country, that number is approximately 600,000 or

thereabouts. It may be a little less or a little more depending on the time and their

rate of employment. But what we know is that this group of people have really

become, by and large, the working poor in society. I think that under the current

economic circumstances which we do not deny, that some of them are externally

propelled by the price of oil and gas and also the production issues and the limits to

foreign exchange earnings, we do not deny that. But it is clear that all of these

circumstances and the policies that are tended being driven by Government are

affecting people in a very negative way in the society.

The middle class, I would say, is under real strain in this country. Perhaps

they are not as hard hit because they have a better cushion than the working poor,

but they are nevertheless hit and all of us know that if you are accustomed to living

in a certain way and pressure is put on you to alter the way that you live, it makes a

big difference in the way that your life is affected and the way you conduct your

life. So the middle class is really living in what you might call reduced

circumstances in Trinidad and Tobago today. I wanted to ask the Minister of

Finance and I know he has already spoken, but I wanted to ask him, you know, I

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do not know if he would call it a rhetorical question, but I wanted to ask him, given

what I was able to read in the Guardian and in the Express today, one says:

“Property tax notices out in two weeks”

And the other headline says:

“Government getting ready for property tax”

I wanted to ask him if he felt that this was the most opportune time to offer the

country an additional tax, the property tax, when in fact people were living under

such [Desk thumping] constraints and under so much pressure.

The issue that follows this though, given the condition of the working poor

and the reduced circumstances of the middle class and the likely imposition of

more taxes on ordinary people, is what is happening in the consumer market, what

is happening in the economy? And the Central Bank report, in fact, indicates that

there is a reduction of consumer confidence in the market. They, in fact, talked

about a lack of consumer confidence. And what lack of consumer confidence

means is that if I have a dollar to spend I would be very, very, careful about when

and how I spend that dollar, because I do not know if I am going to lose my job or

if my wages are going to be affected or if prices are going to increase to the point

where I might not be able to afford on my own wages, to which I have been

accustomed, to manage. And what that means is that I postpone and I withhold

spending as an individual person. And what that means is that it then affects the

businesses that are there that depend on my consumer demand and what that sets

into motion is a whole cycle in which the economy begins to contract.

So that by affecting the wages and salaries of people, by affecting the jobs of

people and creating the conditions for job losses, you also affect consumer demand

and consumer demand then begins to affect businesses and as these businesses

begin to be affected, the economy as a whole begins to contract. And you can see

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it in the small businesses, you can see it in the larger businesses.

Look at what is happening, it then begins to affect business confidence. So

you move from consumer confidence, lack of it, to a lack of business confidence.

So the retail trade is affected not just by consumer demand but it is affected by the

foreign exchange situation in the country and the inability to acquire this in order

to replenish stock to be able to trade in the same way. And a lot of these are small

and medium enterprises. They tend over the gamut of small and medium

enterprises in this country to be the largest employee block of businesses in

Trinidad and Tobago. You might have the energy sector that, in its best days, is

very lucrative for the country in terms of earnings, but they employ a small amount

of people. You might have the big conglomerates, they have companies all over, it

is true, they employ a lot of people but when you think of it in percentage terms it

is not as large as when you take small and medium enterprises together employing

10 people, 20 people, 25 people, 100 people, et cetera, this is the largest block of

employment in the country.

And then you have the manufacturing sector. The manufacturing sector is

also affected. You have a 30 per cent underutilization of manufacturing capacity

in Trinidad and Tobago at the current time. So what it means is that instead of a

manufacturing enterprise operating a full shift or two shifts or three shifts as they

can do, if you had a buoyant economy what you now have is a manufacturing

sector that is operating on a one shift basis and less than 100 per cent, 70 per cent

of what it is able to do. What that means is a reduction of jobs, reduction of output

and what it means also is a lowering in cases where the export—of capacity to

export.

In the services sector, what is happening? We are also seeing, we know that

a lot of the services are related to energy. So those things are connected. So if you

21



UNREVISED

have a bad situation in energy the services sector are also affected by that. But in

other services, services that have to do with ICT, that have to do with finance and

so on, the finance sector is relatively still strong and performing, not in a negative

way but there are other elements of services that are also in decline and what is

significant about this is that the services sector has always been a growth sector for

Trinidad and Tobago over the last four or five years or so when we have seen the

beginning of diversification in those particular sectors. And this was a major

growth sector for Trinidad and Tobago and we are now seeing contraction in those

areas.

Construction is virtually at a halt in Trinidad and Tobago and there is

nothing in our knowledge that is being done at the current time. I know that there

have been indications that there are things to come but there is nothing that is being

done at the current time to stimulate the construction industry which is also a

creator of jobs in Trinidad and Tobago.

In tourism, they have now put an end to the TDC. They have indicated that

they will create two new institutions out of this. We are yet to see what will

happen there and we are yet to understand the rationale for it. But the end result is

that 150 people, as far as I am aware, have also been put out of jobs. [Desk

thumping]

And in agriculture, I mentioned the case of Caroni Green and here is a

situation where you had an institution created precisely to get farmers goods to an

institution that could then locate and connect a market and therefore win foreign

exchange in agriculture for the export of locally produced goods and they were

making successes with peppers. I do not know how successful they are or what

was the difference between how much was being paid, that is to say, operational

cost as opposed to profits, but these things take time as you know and as far as I

22



UNREVISED

know Caroni Green is only about three years old as far as I am aware and it takes

some time for a business to begin to operate and be successful.

So when you look at what is happening, the loss of consumer confidence,

the loss of business confidence, the decline of retail trades, the decline of the

manufacturing sector, the decline of the services sector, the decline of construction,

the dormancy of tourism and the ending of the life of some of these institutions, the

non-activity or non-performance in agriculture, you begin to see that really in

terms of the lives of people and how they earn a livelihood, how they earn a living

by working, by getting an income, by organizing their lives, building their families,

contributing to the community and the economy, you begin to see that the lives of

people are now being severely affected and the quality of life in communities, in

families, in the country are also being affected.

There are other issues too which we need to be aware of. There is a

productivity issue in Trinidad and Tobago. The report by the Central Bank makes

mention of that. There is a competitiveness issue related to Trinidad and Tobago,

the Central Bank report makes mention of that by citing the competitiveness report.

There is a real issue of innovation in Trinidad and Tobago and at no time was the

need for innovation greater than at this time when the country is under the severe

economic pressure that it is from the loss of revenue and opportunity in the energy

sector because of prices and because of the reduction of production.

It is when a country is under economic stress and crisis that innovation is

most needed, both in the companies and in the life of individual people. It is also a

time when entrepreneurship is most needed in the society. But if the economy is

dead and consumer confidence is non-existent and business confidence is waning

every day, it is very difficult for innovation to be stimulated and it is very difficult

for entrepreneurship to emerge, because the sense of risk-taking in the society

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UNREVISED

becomes too high for one to make that venture. [Desk thumping] And it is, what I

am saying therefore is that the cost to the country is higher than simply the

individual life, the individual loss of job, the individual loss of income or to the

family, it is societal in nature when the Government is not in a position to take the

necessary decisions to stimulate the economy.

And I want to say that when I talked at the beginning, Madam Speaker,

about the fact that we have lost 18 months or a year and a half on a world of

opportunities that is what I was talking about. Because you know, we have

focused a lot on the energy sector. The Member for Port of Spain North/St. Ann’s

West likes to talk about that sector.

Mr. Young: I talked about that sector?

Dr. B. Tewarie: The Minister of Finance—you did not talk about it today, I said

you like to talk about it. You do not want me to mention your name?

Mr. Young: You can mention my name if you want, Member for Caroni Central.

[Crosstalk]

Madam Speaker: Members! Crosstalk. Please continue.

Dr. B. Tewarie: The Minister of Finance, of course, talks about the energy sector,

the hon. Prime Minister speaks of the sector, because it is important, it is important

to all of us. But the thing about that energy sector is that 18 months of inaction by

the Government has characterized Government’s behaviour in that sector. It is 18

months of inaction that has characterized Government’s behaviour in that sector.

And the two bright lights that they are talking about in the energy sector now, are

Juniper, which, in fact, was created by action in our Government [Desk thumping]

and the second bright light is the prospect of gas coming from Venezuela through

the Dragon field which they are engaging now. I asked some simple questions

about that which I think are questions that the country needs to understand. Okay,

24



UNREVISED

we have moved from a Government to Government signing. We now have the

three companies signing among themselves. That is to say, NGC, PDVSA, Shell,

but we do not know what is the nature and meaning of this signing. Is it to start a

project, is it to agree on the financing of a project, have the share of investment for

this project among the three companies been determined? Has the role of the

individual Governments across the waters been determined in this? And in the

situation, such as we are at the present time where Venezuela needs the money for

the gas, of course, and Venezuela knows that we also need the gas desperately

because we have shortages, what is going to be the frame of the negotiations that

keep that project organized in such a way that there are benefits to the people of

Trinidad and Tobago? [Desk thumping]

So instead of trying to talk about unpatriotism and treason and so on, they

should try and answer for the people [Desk thumping] what are the realities of the

decisions that they are making. You know, because, when the Minister of Finance

gave his—the Prime Minister is on record as saying on many occasions that they

do not want any advice from this government. And we do not care to give them

advice if they do not want it. They could take it or leave it, I really do not care

whether they take it or leave it. But what I do care about is this, that regardless of

who is the Government in power that they make the right decisions for Trinidad

and Tobago. [Desk thumping] And what I do care about is that the country, the

citizens, the people of this country know that there are options that are available to

the country that the Government is either choosing or not choosing.

When the first budget was read, that is to say, in September 2015, you know

we talked about, we responded to the Minister of Finance and we said that, look,

one of the things that we said in our manifesto of 2015 was that we will take the

necessary steps to increase oil production by offering lease operatorships to small

25



UNREVISED

companies and sole operators to those who can seize profitable opportunities to

produce oil and gas. We made that recommendation to them. The

recommendation is still on the table. They have talked about it several times till

now. There is a lot of stranded gas remaining in the system, there is a lot of oil to

be taken at very low cost with these operators and they have made no decisions

about those as far as I am aware. [Desk thumping]

2.30 p.m.

We said, secondly, that they should make appropriate changes in the fiscal

regime involving suppliers, the NGC and downstream operators to ensure an

increase in production and consequently an increase in supply and the availability

of gas. As far as I know, these things are really stranded negotiations—as far as I

am aware. And instead of creating a zone of peace and conciliation, they have

created a war zone in Point Lisas. [Desk thumping]

Now, we talked about the fact that if we were in government at that time—

this is at the beginning, October 2015 I am talking about. We said if we were in

government at that time we will instruct all state enterprises to address waste and

cost duplication, to strengthen operational efficiencies and to identify slack in their

organization, to positively address productivity and competitiveness.

Madam Speaker: Member for Caroni Central, your original 30 minutes have

expired. You are entitled to 15 more minutes. You may proceed.

Dr. B. Tewarie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. We also said that we

had initiated a World Bank study addressing duplication and overlap and wastage

in the social welfare support sector; that we would try to fast-track to make that

sector a little more efficient, and there were a number of things that we did that we

mentioned to them as part of the policy formulation going forward. And the reason

we did that was because we know that government is a continuity. Governments

26



UNREVISED

come, governments go; elections come, elections go, but the country is ours. It

belongs to all of us, [Desk thumping] and we have an equal share in this country,

whether we are in the government or in the opposition.

So we said to them: “Listen, this is the situation. These are some of the

challenges ahead. You have identified some of them.” We said to them that the

challenge was not just the price and the production. We said that the challenges

were much deeper than that and, therefore, we could not take that as the only

challenge that we had to address. Because if you took that as the only challenge—

which they did—they would end up doing exactly what they did for the last 18

months, which is, look at the revenue, try to raise revenue by every measure, and

failing to do it, as indeed we said they would fail to raise the revenue, you would

then look at expenditure and see how you could cut something here and cut

something there, which is how they end up cutting—what you call it, laptops, this,

that and the other, willy-nilly, and trying to balance that, and then look at the

deficit. And when you borrow the money you take the money and you throw it in

the deficit.

And if you look at the problem as only a problem of reduction in income

from the loss of production and from the fall in the price of oil and gas, and you do

not look at the macroeconomic picture of productive capability of your economy,

you are bound to end up in an arithmetic exercise. [Desk thumping]

Hon. Member: Well said.

Dr. B. Tewarie: And this is not an arithmetic exercise. This is a thing which

involves the energy of people, that determines whether a country progresses or not.

And for the energy of people to be unleashed to progress in entrepreneurship, in

innovation, in investment, in taking risk—to do that, you have to have a

government that inspires confidence. [Desk thumping]. And if it is one thing that

27



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this Government does not do, is that it does not inspire confidence in anybody.

[Desk thumping]

And let me tell you something. If you walk through this country, whether it

is in East Port of Spain, whether it is in Diego Martin, whether it is in my

constituency of Caroni Central, whether it is deeper down in San Fernando and

Penal and Debe and the areas like Point Fortin, wherever you walk in this country,

the sense of frustration in the ordinary citizen is absolutely extreme. [Desk

thumping] And the sense of frustration in the business community now is building

up as it has never built up before. The business people are throwing their hands up

in the air and they are basically saying to you now, in very, very simple, unabashed

terms, “I doh know what”—I cannot say the other word. “I doh know what the so

and so this Government is doing.” [Crosstalk] It is a simple word. It is not a

curse word. “I doh know what the so and so this Government is doing. Nobody

can understand what the Government is doing.” [Desk thumping]

So that you have a frustrated citizenry; you have a frustrated private sector;

you have a public service that does not understand either what the Government is

doing, and therefore what is their role, and therefore you have an economy, a

public administration and a governance system at an absolute standstill in Trinidad

and Tobago. [Desk thumping]

Hon. Member: The Government “doh even know what they doing”.

Dr. B. Tewarie: And there is no reason for this, Madam Speaker. There could

have been an easy continuity from the last administration to this one.

Hon. Member: Who would want that?

Mrs. Robinson-Regis: Who want to continue?

Dr. B. Tewarie: You could change your policy but you did not have to shut down

the country in the process. Because you—[Crosstalk]—you shut down everything

28



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for nearly 12 months. And that is why the only things that have happened in this

country are really private sector investments that were stimulated in our time.

[Desk thumping] So it was very simple to stop for a minute, take an assessment of

what were the projects in stream, what were the things that we were doing, what

could you possibly do different, and simply proceed. But they lost—first of all

they lost a year and they lost the last six months because they took so long. And

now 18 months are shot and you are now trying to address the issue of the

economy.

I do not know if the Minister of Finance is going to come with his budget

review in April. I am hoping that he will not wait too long and that he will come

around April. Hopefully, he might bring it at the end of April, maybe before. That

will give us some idea of where we are. And we are going to have another budget

in September. We will see where that is going. But what is important, I think it is

important for us to understand what has actually been achieved. I heard the Prime

Minister talking about the fact, the other night, that we are criticizing the

Government and saying they are not doing anything. So maybe we are extreme

and we say that the Government is doing nothing. Maybe they are working hard. I

do not know.

Hon. Member: Two in the morning.

Dr. B. Tewarie: But what we are not seeing, however, are the results. We are not

seeing any public investment. [Desk thumping] We are not seeing the public

investment impacting on job creation. We not seeing the public investment

impacting on development and we are not seeing any public investment creating

the conditions for the private sector to be confident enough to invest. [Desk

thumping]

So the Government promised public/private partnership. Now, this was a

29



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policy that we had, and with the IDB we did two projects that were public/private

in nature. And we asked—the Government mentioned public/private partnerships

and they came and they talked about it, but up to now I am not aware of a single

public/private partnership. And the reason I am raising that issue is not because I

do not have any ideological position on this. It is for a very simple reason, which

is that when a State does not have money, when the Government does not have any

money, the best thing to do is to create the conditions for the private sector to put

their money in. [Desk thumping]

Hon. Member: Well said.

Dr. B. Tewarie: So that the private sector carries the loan. They bring the money

to the table, et cetera, and basically they manage their business so that the State and

the people get the asset that they create, and at the end of the day they get their

payment from year to year, month to month, as the case might be, whatever the

arrangements are for the loan repayment. So that they basically finance the

project, they manage the project, they give you the result of the project, they hand

you in a certain way, and so on. And there are so many things waiting to happen in

this country but they have not taken that option; they have not brought the private

sector in.

The importance of such an approach, too, is this. If the Government is

spending money on projects and they are doing things on their own, and if the

private sector is brought in, in partnerships and they are also doing things, chances

are that the private sector, you would not have stand-alone companies. You will

have partnerships in that process as well. And when you begin to do that, you

begin to stimulate both the public side of the economy investment and the private

side. That then stimulates the economy.

What that then does is that it brings people into job ownership and income

30



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ownership, and it then gives buoyancy to the consumer side and your economy

begins to be stimulated. [Desk thumping] And all of these things, the Government

has not even, in my view, reflected upon. They certainly have not actioned, and

the end result of all of this is that we have a dead economy in Trinidad and

Tobago, declining at the rate of, annually, about minus 7 per cent when the end of

2016 report is out in Trinidad and Tobago, if they bring it accurately.

So this is the state of the economy: minus 5 per cent; minus 8 per cent;

minus 10.8 per cent, nearly 11 per cent, and it is going to be like that until the end

of the first quarter of 2017. And what about the state enterprise sector? I do not

know what they are going to do with the state enterprise sector but I realize that a

lot of the distraction on the platform the other night was to make a lot of noise

about the Opposition so that they could sell off the state enterprise sector. [Desk

thumping]

And I want to say to them that I do not have, again, an ideological position

on the state enterprise sector. I want to say that a long time ago that great

Canadian economist, John Kenneth Galbraith, said that it does not matter whether

an enterprise is owned by the State or whether it is owned by the private sector.

But he said, what matters and what matters profusely, is whether or not that

enterprise is allowed to be run according to business principles, that is to say,

whether it is allowed to make a profit and to be profitable and run with the

efficiencies that are required to do that. And secondly, what matters also is

whether or not there is political interference. And those are the two principles.

You could have it State; you could have it private, it does not matter. What

matters is how well it is run, whether it is profitable and whether or not there is

political interference. Because as soon as you have political interference, it is

going to cease to be profitable.

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So the issue for the state enterprise sector is very simple. There are state

enterprises that can be fixed. There are state enterprises that need to be subsidized.

For instance, there is no way that you could have public transportation not

subsidized in a country. There is no way that you can have a water system, in

which you want to give water to everybody, not subsidized to some extent. But

you can limit these things. You can limit the amount of subsidy. But you have

got to fix some of the enterprises. You have got to transform some of the

enterprises and you have to make up your mind to sell some of them. And that is

the reality of the state enterprises sector. The State owns too many state

enterprises and you have to sell some. But I want to say, and I want to alert the

country and warn the Government, that you cannot just sell off state enterprises

just so. And how you sell them and the ownership structure of the state enterprises

after you do that, is also very important. [Desk thumping]

So I hope that out of those non-decisions of the last 18 months, you are not

going to come in the next 18 and make a set of bad decisions to ruin this economy

and ruin this country. [Desk thumping]

So, Madam Speaker, the second part of this Motion says that Government

should be condemned for its failure to deal with the current unemployment

challenges and to present a clear and cogent economic plan to guide the country

through these challenges. And I think if this Government can be duly and honestly

condemned for anything, it is the fact that they have never presented a clear and

cogent economic plan to guide the country through the challenges that we now

face. [Desk thumping] They have come here and they have identified the falling

price of oil and the lower production of gas as a big challenge that they have. They

have come here and blamed the People’s Partnership for every woe that the

country has today. They have come here and they had identified every little

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nitty-gritty problem that they encounter from time to time. But they have never

come and say, “Well, look, we have a structural problem of the economy; that oil

and gas, we have to deal with it as it is finished. We have to find a way of living

within our means, and therefore this is the plan going forward.” And, Madam

Speaker—

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Caroni Central—

Dr. B. Tewarie:—they can be condemned on that. Thank you very much. [Desk

thumping]

Madam Speaker: Member for Port of Spain North/St. Ann's West. [Desk

thumping]

The Minister in the Office of the Attorney General and Legal Affairs and

Minister in the Office of the Prime Minister (Hon. Stuart Young): Thank

you very much, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, a decision was taken that I was

not going to speak today but after hearing the misinformation from the Member for

Caroni Central, we believe, on this side, that it is incumbent upon us to put the real

facts and not the alternative facts and alternatives truths, before the citizens of

Trinidad and Tobago, and that is my sole purpose here today. So, Madam Speaker,

let us start by putting things in context and responding to the last point made by the

hon. Member for Caroni Central. The Trinidadian economy is based on oil and gas

revenues—

Hon. Member: Trinidad and Tobago.

Hon. S. Young: The Trinidad and Tobago economy is based on oil and gas

revenues. In 2014, there was a radical drop in the price of oil and gas commodities

and the price for oil and gas, globally. That was under the former administration.

The citizens of Trinidad and Tobago would recall at this point in time, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition who was then the Prime Minister, and her then Minister

33


Hon. S. Young (cont’d)

UNREVISED

of Finance, Mr. Larry Howai, coming to the Parliament to notify us, the citizens of

Trinidad and Tobago, that there had been this massive fallout. The ground had

moved and Trinidad, along with all oil and gas economies in the world, had dived

down into this deep hole. We now know, from the Minister of Finance, that 92 per

cent of revenue—of oil and gas revenues—in Trinidad and Tobago from 2014 to

2016, was lost. So for every $100 earned, we are now faced with a revenue of $8.

That is the first point.

But to put it in context, respectfully, Madam Speaker, this happened under

the former administration. What would a reasonable, sensible administration, who

is interested in doing the best for the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago have

immediately done?—not contracted its expenditure, not ensure that there was no

wastage of the limited funds because the bottom has now fallen out and you are

now dealing with $8 out of every $100?

Madam Speaker, the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, respectfully, would

agree with that proposition, that if a household had $100 and it now has $8, it

needs to get its expenditure in line with the $8, not necessarily drop it immediately

to $8. Is that what they did on the other side? Absolutely not. In fact, when we

came in, in September 2015, with five weeks to produce a national budget,

uncovering and unearthing on a daily basis, issues of corruption, wastage and

mismanagement, we found a budget prepared by them and the then Minister of

Finance, of $63 billion. So they did the exact opposite of what they should have

done for the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago.

In fact, they carried the expenditure up. So the gall now, to hear them

preaching: “This is what we would do; this is what we should have done; this is

what you, the Government should”—We did it. Because the first thing that this

Minister of Finance in this administration did, Madam Speaker, is immediately

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reduce our expenditures as a country, by $11 billion, from $63 billion to $52

billion. [Desk thumping] Let me remind the people of Trinidad and Tobago what

took place in August 2015, remembering that on the 4th of September, 2015—the

7th of September, 2015 was a general election. Actually, let me fast-forward. He

talked about we shut down the highway project—the Point Fortin Highway project.

Madam Speaker, let me, if you would permit me to remind the citizens of

Trinidad and Tobago, on the 4th of September, 2015, the last working day before a

general election, Contract Addendum No. 2 was signed by the Government on that

side at the time, which gave away the rights of the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago

to cancel a billion-dollar project because the company OAS was in judicial

management and bankrupt, the easiest way to terminate a contract. Those on the

other side did not allow the termination of the contract. In fact, they did the exact

opposite. They signed an agreement to allow the contractors to waive a termination

that can be done on the basis of bankruptcy and insolvency. That is what they

saddled this country with, billions of dollars in claims on the last working day

before an election.

If that was not bad enough, Madam Speaker, let us go to a company called

EMBD. Madam Speaker, on the 14th of August, 2015, when we have already

described that our revenue has dropped by 92 per cent—on the 14th of August,

2015, less than a month before a general election, they as a Cabinet, took a

decision to saddle a company called EMBD that has no real earnings, and it is only

subventions that keep them alive, with a $400 million short-term loan, a six-month

tenure. Is that how you manage the country?

And let me tell you what they did with the $400 million, Madam Speaker:

10 contracts, and they handpicked which contractors it should go to. We have now

discovered that roads, 400 metres of road that we cannot find, because it was not

35



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built and it does not exist, under that administration, the contractor was paid $40

million of the taxpayers’ money. That is what they were doing on the eve of a

general election when our revenues were dissipating, and they have the audacity,

now, to tell the people of Trinidad and Tobago what they are telling them.

T&TEC and TGU, Madam Speaker, billions and billions of dollars—$3

billion, short-term loan of six months. Who takes a loan of $3 billion over a

six-month tenure? Again, done on the eve of the general election. So, Madam

Speaker, to hear from those on the other side now, about what we, this

administration are facing, and trying to keep a stable economy, keep our country

afloat for the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, let the citizens of Trinidad and

Tobago judge them. Let the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago who are making the

cries now, Madam Speaker, know that the state of the country and the economy

stands at their responsibility. [Desk thumping] They are that ones who have us

here.

The Member for Caroni Central likes to talk about energy. He has a

colleague there that anytime I stand up in Parliament, rest assured his weekly

article in the Guardian newspapers would want to try and respond. Let us deal

with energy. I maintain, Madam Speaker, with the greatest of respect, and the

citizens of Trinidad and Tobago are seeing it now and they are commenting to us

about it, that those on the other side, some of them, not all of them—there are some

on the other side, Madam Speaker, who do have the best interest of Trinidad and

Tobago at heart—far and few in between. But the majority do not.

The deal that we have negotiated—the ink has dried now—to get gas to

Trinidad and Tobago, where we have a curtailment issue—and Kevin Ramnarine

can say what he wants and say how I do not understand curtailment. The

curtailment issue was not based solely on a maintenance schedule, Madam

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Speaker. It is because we are a mature province. There was not sufficient gas

being found. Certain projects such as Starfish, had fallen into difficulty and they

were not getting the gas out of the ground that they expected to. And from 2011 to

2015, when we asked the questions for the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, the

sole response was maintenance. In fact, he tried to justify it in his article this

week, quoting a public servant, talking about the Macondo and what went on in the

Gulf of Mexico.

Again, they completely try to mislead the population. Madam Speaker, this

Government came in, in September 2015 and immediately the up-streamers and

the down-streamers were knocking at our doors telling us there are a number of

expired contracts that have not been dealt with by the last administration, the

People’s Partnership administration, for years. He wanted to talk about Point Lisas

is at war and is in disarray? That is their fault, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Member: And they refused to deal with it.

Hon. S. Young: NHTL, the first contract expired, downstream, to be renegotiated

with NGC, and you do not start the renegotiation of an energy contract after it has

expired or even a month before it has expired. You start at least a year before it

expires. NHTL’s first contract expired in 2013. They did nothing; nothing to

renegotiate. All the other contracts then started expiring in 2015. They did

nothing about it and they have the audacity now to say that is us, and workers?

Madam Speaker, I stand here now and tell the country of Trinidad and Tobago that

we are very deep in negotiations with them. We intend to come to a resolution and

this Government is going to try to save every single job. But we are not in

combat. [Desk thumping] Madam Speaker, we are not in combat with either the

upstream or the downstream. That is what they did.

Madam Speaker, that is one of the examples. You would have heard the

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Prime Minister earlier this week talk about all the claims against NGC that are now

running in the billions of dollars—billions—were filed in August 2015 under your

purview. And, Madam Speaker, every single one of those litigants who has sued

us, the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, told us the reason that they had to go to

litigation is because you all on the other side—and tell Kevin Ramnarine, tell Mr.

Chan Chadeesingh who is the chairman of NGC for those years, it is their fault

because they refused to sit and talk and negotiate with those down-streamers. So

now Trinidad and Tobago has found itself as the recipient of billions of dollars of

claims, because you all refused to talk to them in a responsible manner.

Madam Speaker, you know what they did with NGC between 2010 and

2015? Let me remind the population. The $11 billion that sat in NGCs retained

earnings—

Mr. Imbert: Fourteen.

Hon. S. Young: Sorry—$14 billion that sat in NGC’s retained earnings were

siphoned out. They took it as dividends. They even retroactively paid dividends.

What that means, let the population be reminded, dividends were declared for the

year 2009 and paid. They came in, in 2010. They declared a dividend for 2010

and said, “We want to increase, retroactively, the dividend for 2009”. So for years

that had already gone, they were dipping in and taking for those years. They did it

continuously for a five-year period, leading to $11 billion in cash going out.

Another project that they used NGC to do that NGC had absolutely no nexus

to whatsoever—the Beetham Waste Water Plant. Now, again, we are currently in

litigation—billion dollars in litigation—the NGC Waste Water Plant—with a

company called SIS. SIS and NGC were building pavilions, recreation grounds.

That is what they were doing with the energy sector, Madam Speaker. That is

what they were using NGC to do with our energy sector and the money that was

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the heritage of our children and our grandchildren to be, was there.

So let me get now to Dragon, because they have a lot to say about Dragon,

and I have not heard them say once on the other side—and this is why they are

unpatriotic—that “we are supporting”, Madam Speaker. [Desk thumping]

[Crosstalk]

Madam Speaker: Member, I think you could find another way. If you could

withdraw that. You can find another way to say that.

Hon. S. Young: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Those on the other side

are not acting in the best interest of Trinidad and Tobago. [Desk thumping] We

have found ourselves as a mature province, and if you all do not understand what

that means, it means that we have been taking the oil and the gas out of our fields

for many years so we have found ourselves as a mature province.

So rather than find ourselves solely at the hands and at the mercy of upstreamers in

order to not only get gas, but also to find ourselves in a better leveraging and

negotiation position, we have gone and successfully gone cross-border. What is it

that they try to do consistently? They try to attack that. They try to send signals to

persons to say shut it down on the other side.

3.00 p.m.

Madam Speaker, this administration, whilst we are in office, are determined

and we will give our best for the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, and unlike them,

we are not doing one at a time. So whilst we have gone to Venezuela and we have

successfully negotiated for the gas to come—[Interruption]

Hon. Member: What is the term?

Hon. S. Young: So now the three companies have signed a Heads of Agreement

and, as I said here previously, and I will repeat again, by July of this year a gas

sales contract will be worked out and that is the heart; that is the artery. [Desk

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thumping] They could not do that. They did not do any of that. So while that will

happen by July, what are we doing? The Prime Minister is leading a small

delegation—not like the delegations that used to take place previously where

everybody, their sister, their brother, their hairdresser, a handbag carrier,

everybody would go. [Laughter] On this occasion, Madam Speaker, the Prime

Minister—[Interruption]

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: What about the golf bag? Are you taking golf bag?

Madam Speaker: Member for Siparia. Member for Siparia?

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: Yes, Ma’am. My apologies.

Madam Speaker: Continue, Member for Port of Spain.

Hon. S. Young: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, on this

occasion, next week Wednesday, the Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago is

going to Houston, at which time he will meet with bp, he will meet with Shell, he

will meet with Exxon and he will meet with EOG. All of those discussions and

negotiations taking place in order to bring more oil and gas investment to Trinidad

and Tobago, whilst we are doing the same in Venezuela.

So, Madam Speaker, we are very aware of the situation that is taking place

in our oil and gas industry. They like to call Loran-Manatee. If you would ask the

Member for Naparima how long Loran-Manatee has been bandied about, and

nothing has happened with it. But as soon as we have gone cross-border and

shown that we will not allow any entity—not a single entity can hold this

administration over a barrel—all of a sudden they want conversation on Loran-

Manatee. That conversation will take place, but we are not limited to one.

The Member for Caroni Central spoke about stranded oil and stranded gas,

one of the things he is correct about. But what has happened under our

administration with stranded oil and stranded gas? Let us start with the oil. One of

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the most successful international companies in the world that is able to bring up

stranded oil from fields and actually get more out of the fields than had existed at

the time when they were at the best levels is a—[Interruption] You all want to

have a conversation and I sit down? [Desk thumping and laughter] Madam

Speaker, one of the best international companies—[Interruption]

Madam Speaker: Any Member who finds it very difficult to accept—

[Interruption] Any Member who finds it difficult to comply with Standing Order

53 is invited to leave the Chamber and continue their conversation outside. I

expect from here on Members will observe the Standing Order, or else the

necessary action will be taken. Please continue, Member for Port of Spain

North/St. Ann’s West. [Desk thumping]

Hon. S. Young: Madam Speaker, I was about to address the point raised by the

Member for Caroni Central. The point raised by the Member for Caroni Central is

that what about the stranded fields of oil, the stranded fields of gas. One of the

most successful international companies for dealing with stranded oil, any level of

research will immediately show is a company call Perenco. Perenco is currently

on the ground in Trinidad and Tobago. Perenco has come here to deal with certain

fields, I think it is the Poui, Teak field, and we have already engaged in

conversation with them about other fields that may be seen as mature fields in oil

and stranded oil, and those conversations are going well.

So we are not sitting down and dealing with things on one front, everything

on Dragon, and this company alone. No, it is multifaceted and we are dealing with

every single one of them efficiently. So Perenco is helping us deal with the

stranded oil. When we get into the Petrotrin issue there is a lot of oil to be had in

the Soldado field, we are also looking at that. Madam Speaker, on the stranded

gas, one of the most efficient operators upstream in the world for stranded gas and

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smaller fields is EOG. As I said a short while ago, we intend to meet with EOG

next week. We have already been having discussions with EOG, and we will bring

that home as well. So, Madam Speaker, this administration is not sitting back

quietly. We are doing our work quietly and efficiently, and let the citizens of

Trinidad and Tobago know that we are working very hard on the energy sector and

we are getting that back under control having regard to the way it was left.

They also talked about other areas and how nothing is going on, and no

private sector investment, no PPP is taking place. Madam Speaker, another area

that the country will be hearing a lot about and investment coming in, within I

would say the next six months, is the tourism area. There have been conversations

taking place along certain lines with Sandals, but there are also other international

operators that have sought us out and they now have the confidence because of the

stability of how they have seen the economy being managed and how we are

dealing with a little and spreading it, [Desk thumping] the stability with what is

taking place in other areas of the country. So tourism also will go up.

Another area is also, we are now having persons—in fact, this week a very

large international entity had a meeting with us and talked about wanting to get

involved in the upstream investment in energy in Trinidad and Tobago, which did

not take place under them. In fact, a lot of international players who had licences

for blocks did nothing under the former administration and actually let the blocks

go back to the Ministry of Energy and Energy Industries.

Another area that you will see things taking place on is—let us talk about the

Couva Hospital. There was a whole big ribbon cutting exercise that God sent a

message on the day. One massive downpour came, tents blew away, place flooded

and stuff, not to have the ribbon cutting. They proceeded to have the ribbon

cutting on a construction site. What is happening with that? We report to the

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people of Trinidad and Tobago that an RFP went out. A number of international

and a national interest have come in. Those are currently being evaluated to make

sure that Trinidad and Tobago gets the best value for money that may not have

been best spent at the time.

Madam Speaker, another area is the St. Clair site where the Ministry of

Agriculture, Land and Fisheries currently is. An RFP went out; we have gotten a

number of interested parties into that RFP; those are being evaluated right now as

we speak. I heard my friend, and I call him my friend, the Member for Caroni

Central, talking about selling off state enterprises. Well, I rushed to make a note. I

would like to remind the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, in the last few months

before the same general election in September 2015, they rushed to sell off state

assets and we now know where that money went. They sold off state assets at a

time when they were refusing to cut expenditure as I just pointed out. They kept

their expenditure at $63 billion when the ground had fallen and you were now

dealing with $8 out of every hundred dollars as revenue, and they had an FCB IPO.

They also had—what is it, TTPNG? What is the word again?

Mr. Imbert: TNGL.

Hon. S. Young:—TNGL IPO as well. So that is how they dealt with state

enterprises. Thank you for the advice. We know what we are doing on this side

and we will continue to do so on this side, Madam Speaker. [Desk thumping]

They are talking about selling out cash cows. As I just pointed out, you all

took $14 billion from NGC, what did you do for it? Up to this point in time you all

should account for what you did with the $14 billion. They are talking about us

borrowing. Again, we have set out why it is that the Government must borrow and

the circumstances within which. They must explain to the population of Trinidad

and Tobago why it is between August 2015 and the 4th of September, 2015, the

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levels of debt that they put this country into, billions of dollars of short-term debt

where there was absolutely no way that debt could have been paid out. So when

you all are called to account, explain to the population of Trinidad and Tobago

why you have put us in that position.

Madam Speaker, the last point I would like to make is a point about IDB.

We have just received notification from the IDB as they listened to what was going

on in the Parliament. The IDB Programme between 2010 and 2015 was

incomplete disarray. There were a number of agreements signed, the money was

not utilized, it was not used, no value for money. Actually, it has been described

as non-performing. What has taken place in the last 18 months? Thanks to the

Leader of the Bench [Desk thumping] the hon. Minister of Planning and

Development. The hon. Minister of Planning and Development took the

responsibility given to her by the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago and by the Prime

Minister very seriously, sat down with the IDB, our technocrats, their technocrats

and they have successfully renegotiated, reorganized all of the programmes,

pressed reset, and the IDB has just sent notice to us, a short while ago, everything

is on the stream and ready to go now. [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker, as I said a short while ago, I did not intend to join this

debate on this Motion, but having regard to the misinformation that was being

provided to the public of Trinidad and Tobago, by the lack of patriotism and the

lack of those on the other side, I saw it fit to enter the debate. I thank you very

much for the opportunity. [Desk thumping]

Dr. Surujrattan Rambachan (Tabaquite): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam

Speaker, what the hon. Member for Port of Spain North/St. Ann’s West seems to

conveniently forget is that—[Interruption]

Madam Speaker: Excuse me. Member for Diego Martin North/East, I would just

44


Dr. S. Rambachan (cont’d)

UNREVISED

like to draw to your attention that you are disturbing the proceedings. I am sure

this is the last time I will have to address that. Continue, Member for Tabaquite.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity

to contribute. Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Port of Spain North/St. Ann’s

West seems to be conveniently forgetting that he has been in office for 18 months,

that the country thought, based upon what they promised the country, that they

would have done a better job than the People’s Partnership Government did.

Unfortunately, as shown by the March 2017 Report of Central Bank, they have

done a very poor job of managing the economy. [Desk thumping]

So standing there and shouting all the things that he has shouted umpteen

times in this Parliament about the People’s Partnership Government, does not

change the fact that they have failed to manage the economy in the interest of the

people. [Desk thumping] And the level of gross incompetence that we have seen

in the PNM Government in the last 18 months has been unparalleled because for

the last 33 years this has been the greatest decline in the economy under any

Government. [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker, he criticizes the IPO and the selling of state enterprises by

the People’s Partnership Government, but you know I want to remind him of an

article in the Trinidad Guardian of Tuesday, October 27, 2015. Headline written

by Nadaleen Singh, “TTNGL offer a success says NGC chairman”. He is saying—

[Interruption]

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: What is his name?

Dr. S. Rambachan: Mr. Brooks. Gerry Brooks. The real minister of energy in

the country—[Desk thumping]— is saying that our IPO was a great success, but

they have to explain why a public relations excuse is being used to extend the

offering for the First Citizens Bank APO—additional public offering—which was

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supposed to be closed today but has now been extended I think for a further two

weeks. Why have you had to extend it if you were so sure that the people have

confidence in—[Desk thumping]

Is it not that people are losing confidence in the economy that they now

think, listen I am not going to take my little savings and put it there because I am

not sure that the price of FCB shares is going to hold at $32? So the reality is that

they have to explain why there is this loss of confidence by people in the country.

When you have a loss of confidence by people in the country, both consumers and

business people, you are looking at a horrendous situation for the economy of the

country, and this is what the Government must face up to, and this is what the

Government must begin to tackle.

Madam Speaker, he again brought the issue of Addendum II in terms of the

OAS and the contract, but he must also read the entire content of Addendum II.

He is only reading one side of it, but he is not talking about the fact that through

Addendum II we also saved the country millions of dollars claimed by the OAS

[Desk thumping] because the reality is that Nidco was unable to release certain

parts of the highway to the OAS. In the case of Guapo, for example, La Brea, the

people continued to disrupt the highway works there for months on end and the

contractors could not do their work—[Interruption]

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: La Brea

Dr. S. Rambachan:—in La Brea.

Very, very bad behaviour and they blocked the highway. They came out

with guns, all kind of things. The police refused to deal with it. I went to a

meeting at the Ministry of National Security. I went there hoping to get the help of

the Ministry of National Security and they could not quell the issue down there.

Maj. Gen. Dillon: That is not true.

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Dr. S. Rambachan: That is true. I was a part of that delegation that met at the

Ministry of National Security. [Desk thumping] I was there. That was before your

time, Mr. Dillon. Before your time.

Dr. Francis: Your Minister of National Security?

Dr. S. Rambachan: Before your time.

Madam Speaker, what the hon. Member for Port of Spain North/St. Ann’s

West would not say is that because of the tight nature of the contract and the way

we managed our contract, and the way we managed and had very tight contracts

which we had guarantees and insurance and so on, we recovered over a billion

dollars from the OAS. Why do you not say that? [Desk thumping] That could

only have been done—whether you recovered it, or we recovered it, the

Government recovered it because of the great work that we put in there in order to

manage the economy. [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker: Member for Port of Spain North—[Interruption]

Mr. Young: Sorry.

Dr. S. Rambachan: So the Member is cherry-picking. The Member is telling part

of story, but he is not telling the entire story and that is very unfortunate.

Madam Speaker, they are in charge. Let us face it, they are in charge. They

are in charge and they said that, but it seems that they are not in charge and

everything is collapsing around them. Everything is collapsing. Let us, Madam

Speaker, as a citizen of this country, realize what ordinary citizens are facing and

feeling in this society? Do you know what it means to get up and not have a job?

You know, we talk about poverty and the poverty that is increasing in the country,

but how many of us really know about how many homes are not able to feed

themselves properly? Madam Speaker, these are realities you know and property

tax is coming on that eh.

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There is a very serious social upheaval in this country that has not found

physical expression, but mentally and psychologically people are deeply affected

in this country and one wonders the way people are psychologically and mentally

affected is not leading to a level of frustration that is bearing out in terms of

violence against persons [Desk thumping] even in homes, children against children,

in schools and what have you. Somebody has to take charge of what is happening

to the social fabric of this country. The soul of this country is being lost on a daily

basis [Desk thumping] and, Madam Speaker, all they do is blame the other side

rather than taking charge and doing something, and fixing the problems in this

country. [Desk thumping] The people voted you to fix the problems which you

are not doing.

Madam Speaker, this Motion that we are debating, growing levels of

unemployment, growing poverty, deteriorating standards of living, as the Motion

says a result “of a wage restraint/freeze policy on working people”. Now, the

Government will argue that it has not formally announced any such policy, but on

several occasions the Government has been saying that the People’s Partnership

Government negotiated wage and salary agreements which appear to be exorbitant

and they are now saddled with having to meet the wage bill. I have a question for

the Government because that has been their complaint. So what did they expect of

People’s Partnership Government? To have people living below a proper standard

of living; to ask people to work for wages not befitting the work they are doing?

What did they expect of the People’s Partnership Government? Not to increase the

standards of living of people; not to provide the disposable income that people

required in order to improve their standards of living and so affect the retail sector

and the other sectors in the country?

I have a question for the Government: do you disagree with the settlements

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which were negotiated by the People’s Partnership Government; and if so what are

your reasons? Would you have not negotiated those settlements? Go and tell the

people today, whose trade unions negotiated those settlements, whose trade unions

were offered zero, zero, one by you [Desk thumping] who you showed no love

for—[Interruption]

Mr. Imbert: Before what?

Dr. S. Rambachan: Before 2010—who you treated with a level of contempt that

no citizens or working persons in this country should have been treated with and

you offered them that. You go and tell them now we would not know given you

those wages. Do you agree or disagree? And even if you have not formally

announced a wage freeze, are you implicitly, or have you implicitly imposed a

wage freeze on the total quantum of wages and salaries you are prepared to pay?

And how are you doing it? By non-renewal of contracts; by closing down of state

enterprises; by shutting down of several offices of Ministries.

You know, we need to really know, an official figure from the Government,

of how many contract workers whose contracts have not been renewed in this

country. We have to know. You have virtually imposed a ceiling on the amount

of money you are willing to pay for wages and salaries by not bringing new

employees, by not filling vacancies. Do you know how many vacancies there are

in this country in the teaching service, for example, that students are suffering—

[Interruption]

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: Police service.

Dr. S. Rambachan:—police service? How many persons have been employed by

you, your Government, in the last 18 months? How many have been employed in

the public service? How many have been employed by state companies, compared

to how many have lost their jobs? How many contracts have not been renewed, I

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ask again, in the several Government Ministries and state agencies?

We have estimates of about 16,000 persons. I heard someone say 1 per cent

rise in the unemployment rate represents 16,000 persons who have lost their jobs.

In a small country like ours that is a significant number of persons and it is in this

context that the second aspect of the Motion moved by my hon. colleague, Member

for Couva South, becomes significant and assumes importance:

“…that this House condemns the Government for its failure to deal with the

current unemployment challenges…” [Desk thumping]

And further, condemn the Government for its failure:

“to present a clear and cogent economic plan to guide the country through

these challenges.”

Let us face it. You have not presented an economic plan to the country. You have

not. [Desk thumping] You have not.

Member for Diego Martin North/East, if you recall, and you have been

criticizing the PP Government, but the Trinidad Express of October 02, 2013 bp

speaking. The headline is “BP encouraged by 2014 budget”.

“‘The benefits of these fiscal changes’”—says bp. I am quoting them—

“‘have been evident in the recent successful bid rounds, particularly in

deepwater, and we can now expect to see increased investments in

exploration and development as a result of the changes announced last

month...within BP we will take these changes into account and make

changes in our investments in another part of the world. That’s called the

competition for capital and that’s good for Trinidad...’” [Desk thumping]

And you are saying that people did not have confidence in our Government. That

is one of the largest investors in our country. So when you come here and peddle

and—I like to call it in the Member for St. Augustine’s words—peddle a narrative

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that is contrary to what the facts bear out, then you have a false narrative. [Desk

thumping] But let us come to Daily Express, Thursday, 23rd March, 2017. New

chamber president: Trinidad and Tobago facing crisis. Headline, “Sky will fall in

if nothing done”. [Desk thumping]

“We are grappling…

NEWLY-elected president of the Trinidad and Tobago Chamber...Ronald

Hinds believes”—that—“the country is facing not only an economic crisis,

but a political and social crisis”—[Desk thumping]—“that is manifested

through worsening crime.”

The very point I made earlier on in my argument, and:

“This includes increased violence against women.

We are grappling with declining economic activity, foreign exchange

shortages and lowered business confidence...”

But you know what is worse, Madam Speaker? We do not need anyone to

tell us. The average citizen is looking at something that is dramatic in this country,

and do you know what that is? That is the collapse of almost every institution of

governance [Desk thumping] and service delivery in the country. And the very

words of Mr. Hinds:

“On the political and governance front, we are seeing the near collapse of

almost every institution of governance and service delivery by the State:

policing and security, health services, transportation…”

Do not talk about the inter-island ferry. When I raised here the question of

Magellan and that contract that was given to the management of have ferry service,

and when we raised that there was only an address signifying that they had

engineering support services, I was laughed at and scoffed at by Members of the

other side. Today, we see and we continue to see how that whole ferry service is

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collapsing because of poor management. [Desk thumping] And I ask again, was the

resignation of the Chairman of the Board related to the Magellan contract? [Desk

thumping]

Madam Speaker: Member, I would just ask you to come back to the text of the

matter before us.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I will. I will. Madam Speaker,

it is extremely disturbing as we speak about unemployment, that the Minister of

Labour and Small Enterprise Development, a significant labour leader in this

country, now holding the portfolio of Minister, over and over cannot tell the

country—[Interruption]

Madam Speaker: Member, please abide by the Standing Order. It is nearly tea

time, anybody who wishes can leave the Chamber if they cannot abide by the rules.

Continue.

Dr. S. Rambachan: She cannot tell the country how many persons have lost their

jobs. She keeps hiding, hiding behind the formal requirement of companies

having to report retrenchment. Everybody losing their jobs. ArcelorMittal 600

gone, plus 1,800 other indirect workers, and you tell me that you do not have the

capacity as a Minister to find out what is going in the labour sector? [Desk

thumping] Did you become a Minister in order to enjoy the ride as a Minister, to

get a fat salary, to dress up every day, to drive in big car, but you cannot tell the

country how many people have really lost their jobs? [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker, what are we dealing with? How can you begin to put a

plan of action? And this is my point. If you do not know who have been

displaced; in what areas of the economy they have been displaced; how many in

energy and with what skills; how many in retail and with what skills; how many in

manufacturing; who have lost their jobs? You have to have basic information, and

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if you do not have that information you cannot plan. You cannot plan.

3.30 p.m.

Madam Speaker, the Government will argue that its first priority in the

situation it face is dealing with declining energy prices. So it will argue that

therefore, look, our first priority is to achieve financial stability. Okay, I have no

problem with that. You must achieve financial stability. You must bring your

revenue in line with your expenditure. No one is arguing that. No one is arguing

that you have to cut the cloth to fit. No one is arguing that but let us agree that you

have to do that. Let us agree that the economy has to be stabilized. Let us agree

that you cannot keep borrowing. But budgetary balancing is not an exercise

independent of having an economic plan. [Desk thumping] A viable economic

plan. You are only looking at one side of the issue. You must have an economic

plan, even as you stabilize the finances, to grow the economy and create

prosperity. If you are not creating the conditions for prosperity, you are creating

the condition for poverty.

Mr. Charles: Yes, well said, well said. [Desk thumping]

Dr. S. Rambachan: And you are not showing us that there is an avenue to

prosperity and all around you, poverty is increasing; it is increasing.

Madam Speaker, the danger we are facing in Trinidad and Tobago, under

this Government, that it continues to put all its eggs in the energy basket. That is

what it is doing. It is playing a very risky game by not intensifying its efforts at

strategic diversification. They are talking diversification but are we doing

anything about diversification?

Madam Speaker, contrary to what they say, contrary to what they wish to

celebrate, Madam Speaker, in tourism, we were moving in one area, at least, of

diversification. The building of the national cycling stadium, the building of the

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aquatic centre, the improvement of the tennis centre, the aviation school in Couva.

These were all areas of diversification. [Desk thumping] And in the medical field,

that very children’s hospital that they are talking about, could have been used also

as a means of medical tourism. [Desk thumping] That was part of the plan. They

never understood the plan because they do not have a head for planning. [Desk

thumping]

Madam Speaker, therefore, I have some questions for the Government,

again, today because the Motion speaks about the lack of a cogent and clear

economic plan to guide the country so I want to ask them some questions today.

What sectors have you identified for diversification in the short term— the next

one to five years? You have done nothing for 18 months eh so you have three and

a half months. What sectors have you identified for diversification? What? What

have you identified? What you have done is you have knocked down the TDC and

set up TDC Tobago and Trinidad TDC. Why? Because you want to create the

conditions where you could do what you want in Tobago with no man’s land [Desk

thumping] and give lucrative contracts to Sandals as you want to do it.

But I want to ask you a question. You have Magdalena in Tobago, you have

all golf course and you have all the land around Magdalena, why do you not have a

strategic plan to make Magdalena [Desk thumping and interruption] an

international brand name? Why? You have models. You have Coco Reef that is

always winning awards for tourism in Tobago. What is wrong? So what is this

urge to break up the TDC? Is it because somebody has to benefit? Is there

somebody has to get a pay back? [Desk thumping and interruption]

I have not heard the Government side yet say whether the lobbyist in

Washington was not a campaigner for the PNM in the last election. So it leads me

to ask the question: what it is about breaking up the TDC into two? Second

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question I have for them is: what sectors have you identified for the medium term,

five to 10 years and for the long term, in terms of diversification? Where is your

medium-term planning? Where is your long-term planning? I am not hearing

anything coming from the Member for Arouca/Maloney, the Minister of Planning

and Development, about that. What I know is that she is dismantling a lot of the

progressive policies that were put in place by the Member for Caroni Central.

[Crosstalk]

What manufacturing industries have you identified that can be expanded in

the short term? How are you as a Government partnering with the private sector

industries? Have you identified those manufacturing companies that can, in fact,

up their production in the short term and are you providing any kinds of incentives

for them to do so, so that they can earn you foreign exchange as well as employ

more people? Have you done that kind of analysis? Have you engaged in that

kind of discussion with the private sector? No, you have not. Because if you did,

you would not have Mr. Hinds saying what he says, as the new Chamber President,

that everything is collapsing and there is an economic collapse. What is your

Minister of industry really doing? What is your Minister of industry really doing in

the country?

Dr. Moonilal: Who is that? Who is that?

Mr. Indarsingh: “Who she hug with?” [Crosstalk]

Dr. S. Rambachan: Have you been marketing our free zones in order to attract

export-oriented businesses which can also provide jobs? Have you been marketing

our free zones? [Crosstalk] Have you been doing that?

Madam Speaker, you know, this forces me to ask a question, you know and

it is a question and a statement that I think that we will have to ask. You have so

many institutions where you supposedly had high-priced professionals to run,

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whether it is exporTT, whatever, whatever. Have these people that we have been

hiring really marketing Trinidad and Tobago? Have they been competent at the

job that they have been hired to do? What have we gained from all of these high-

priced people? I really must ask that question.

You know why I ask that, Madam political leader of our party? I read the

newspaper this week and you see Grenada who have so much less than us have

been able to turnaround their situation and achieve a 3.19 per cent—3.9 per cent

growth. [Crosstalk] They have achieved that. They have nutmegs and spices and

they have tourism and “they nutmeg was wiped out”. What it is about Grenada

that, in such a short time, they have been able to turn around their situation?

Mr. Charles: A better Minister of Finance. [Crosstalk]

Dr. Moonilal: No PNM.

Dr. S. Rambachan: It is not Sandals. It is creating the facilitating environment—

[Desk thumping and interruption]

Madam Speaker: Order.

Dr. S. Rambachan:—and having a population that is committed to service in the

tourism sector like you have been unable to do in this country. [Desk thumping]

Tobago is different to Grenada. Tobago has the same tourism potential but what—

Hon. Member: They just dependent on the Treasury.

Dr. S. Rambachan: That is the point. Dependent on the Treasury. Everybody

employed by the THA so nobody really has to do anything else except work in the

THA.

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: And no Calcutta ship was—

Dr. S. Rambachan: And no Calcutta ship. [Interruption] They did not want the

Calcutta ship. They probably want Calcutta style—hair styles and not Calcutta

ship. [Laughter]

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Mr. Singh: Where is Tobago West?

Hon. Member: “Ooooh, wow.”

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: Suruj, that is very unkind.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Madam Speaker, while you are striving for financial stability,

you have to also have a plan to grow the economy and earn money. The social

perils of an economy that is stagnating will be horrendous and it has started.

Poverty, crime, lawlessness, anger born out of frustration to make ends meet in this

country, are all signs of an economy collapsing or collapsed. God forbid, God

forbid that it does not go any more than that. God forbid, Madam Speaker. Madam

Speaker, if you believe that poverty does not exist or is not growing, then you are

living in a fool’s paradise. Just drive around the country and look at the shacks in

which women and children are living all over this country. Just drive around, look

at the shacks. No running water. No outside latrine. A mattress on a dirt floor.

There is real poverty in this country. Do not fool yourselves. There is real poverty

in this country.

Madam Speaker, you know, today, I went back on some of the headlines of

the newspapers and there was an article in Trinidad Guardian, May 29, 2016, by

Kalifa Clyne:

“Poor working just to eat”

And you should read this:

“One adult living on less than around TT$1,230 per month is considered to

be living below the poverty line in…”

Trinidad and Tobago. And:

“This is according to a mathematical equation arrived at by the Ministry of

Social Development and applied to the Survey of Living Conditions…”

Madam Speaker, the point is this, even if the poverty levels existed before 2016,

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this Government, the People’s Partnership Government, was doing something to

ensure that there was a proper social safety net. [Desk thumping] Madam Speaker,

they could say what they want, they could jump high, they could jump low, they

could call the east, west, north and south, but when we were in Government,

people were working, people were eating and the standard of life and prosperity

was better. [Desk thumping] But when you read—

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Tabaquite, your original 30 minutes have

expired. You are entitled to 15 more minutes. I just want to say that I know you

are very passionate with respect to what you are saying but just watch the levels of

volumes.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Yes, thank you.

Hon. Member: That is against a Standing Order? Which Standing Order is that?

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: The air.

Madam Speaker: Member for Naparima, I do not want to think you intend what

you said in terms of being impolite to the Chair. I really do not think you meant

that. Continue, Tabaquite.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Madam Speaker, March 23rd, yesterday’s Guardian, front

page, the homeless:

“and go where?”

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: Tamarind Square.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Tamarind Square.

“and go where?”

When the homeless has to take a government to court when the homeless should be

protected, we reach. We reach. Madam Speaker, so I went back to that article on

the newspapers in order to look at.

But you know, October 16, 2016, another article by Sheila Rampersad and

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this says:

“Substantial State assistance is going to people who are not poor while

people who deserve help are not getting it.”

Madam Speaker, let us talk about poverty. Poverty has to do also with the ability

of people to sustain themselves yet thousands of people in this country living, let

us say, below the poverty line or just above, who cannot access drugs because they

cannot buy it and it is not available and I am talking about CDAP drugs.

Mr. Singh: Pharmaceuticals.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Pharmaceuticals.

Mrs. Persad-Bissessar SC: Medicine.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Medicine, medicine, they cannot get it and yet the Minister

of Health comes in this Parliament and boasts about achievements but people

dying because they cannot get basic diabetes drugs. [Desk thumping] You talk

about $8 billion you want to spend.

Mr. Deyalsingh: I never said that.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Eight billion dollars you want to spend in helping the chronic

diseases, NCDs.

Mr. Deyalsingh: I never said that.

Dr. S. Rambachan: But you do not have money to buy a little Glucophage for

people right now.

Madam Speaker: Member for St Joseph, there is a means with respect to making

an interruption. Member for Tabaquite.

Dr. S. Rambachan: If the Member for St. Joseph did not say that, then he must

also say whether that is a policy of his Government or a decision was taken

because it is people on behalf of his Government who are speaking that out.

Mr. Deyalsingh: Would you give way?

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Dr. S. Rambachan: Yes.

Mr. Deyalsingh: Hon. Member, this is the second time the Opposition

misconstrued a statement. The statement was that both the direct cost and indirect

cost in terms of lost productivity due to NCDs, in that totality, it is estimated, it

cost this country $8 billion a year. That includes lost productivity, people who are

ill, children who have to take their parents to the doctor and so on. That is the

statement.

Hon. Member: Where is your source?

Dr. S. Rambachan: Thank you.

Mr. Deyalsingh: The source is the RTI who assisted the IADB in this country.

Dr. S. Rambachan: So there is a big cost but what are you really doing to manage

NCDs in the country? Right. At this point in time, you are projecting the future.

Let us talk about all the people who cannot get pharmaceuticals. They cannot get.

What is the situation with cancer patients? What is the situation? Do you know

how much $20 means to a poor person? I really have to ask the question, you

know. Some people really do not know how much $20 means to a poor person.

But when you have to get $20 to buy a card of Glucophage and you do not have

that $20, what happens you know. This is a serious situation, you know.

[Interruption] Yes, but I wonder whether there is a heart at all in the PNM. I

know about one Calder Hart but I do not know whether there is a heart in the

PNM.

Dr. Moonilal: They have feet to kick.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Madam Speaker, poverty is real in this country. Has any

economist ever calculated what it costs to maintain a family of four— a father, a

mother, and two children in primary school and then a father, a mother and two

children in secondary school and then a father, a mother and one child in

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university? How much it really costs to do that and maintain that and you will

begin to understand—and this is why, you know, I really must admire single

mothers in this country. [Desk thumping] Despite everything, you know, single

mothers, they fight their way through and they educate their children. I know

single mothers now working for less than $3,000 a month, $600 a week, $120 a

day, in fast food outlets but have children at university and they are finding a way

to support them. [Desk thumping] This Government should find ways to help

those people because that is the future of this country, but, instead, you come here

every time lambasting the PP, lambasting the former Government but you are

doing nothing to help the plight of the poor. [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker, I ask the question: who is doing this kind of analysis?

Because it seems that if the Government is to do anything about poverty in the

country, if they must have a viable economic plan in the country, then they have to

have the information that will inform public policy and it seems that they do not

have that because they have shut down everything. My colleague for Caroni

Central is correct. The public service does not know what to do, they have no

guidance and, therefore, they too have shut down. They have no direction; no

leadership in the Government; no clear vision of the Government, therefore, the

poor public servants just do not know what to do. Leadership has to come from the

top. This economy was on a move, things were happening in this country because

our leader had a vision [Desk thumping] and we kept articulating that vision.

Madam Speaker, all of this has to be part of the economic planning. If the

Government wants to do something in this country, apart from moving

expeditiously to dismantle the gangs, which has to be a number one priority issue

in the country at this time, you must deal with unemployment and you must deal

with poverty. You must deal with the availability of shelter for people and

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empowerment of your human resources and I say that for a reason. Because the

cornerstone of a functioning democracy versus what is becoming a failed state

because a failed state will have all its implications. The cornerstone of a

functioning democracy would include self-sufficiency in the ability to feed

ourselves. [Desk thumping] That is important.

And you know what? Your economic plan must have agriculture, food

production as a major issue. You brought back the name of the Ministry to

agriculture, it shows how you do not have a vision. Look at the vision

encompassed in the words “food production”.

Mr. Charles: Food production as opposed to agriculture, I did not think “ah” that.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Of course, it is visionary. Because you have set yourself the

goal of producing food.

Hon. Member: Sustainable development.

Dr. S. Rambachan: That is right because it includes sustainability. That is the

point. Secondly, cornerstone of democracy is the ability to earn and maintain

oneself and one’s family. If you do not have self-respect that comes from your

ability to support yourself, then you are in total dependant and that takes away your

human dignity and that, too, is a cornerstone of a democratic society [Desk

thumping] because it gives you a certain kind of freedom. Freedom of speech is a

cornerstone in a democracy but so, too, self-respect born of the freedom and ability

to sustain yourself. Thirdly, the ability to be healthy and freedom of expression.

These are the cornerstones of democracy but all of that is threatened by poverty, by

inequality, by unemployment, —all as the result of a failure to provide an

economic plan to guide the future. All of that, Madam Speaker, a failure to do it.

Madam Speaker, a lot can be done in the country. For example, take the

manufacturing sector. The manufacturing sector is producing but one of the things

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this Government should have done is it should have said—for example, like we

had said and we had proposed to do in our second term— that you will double

export of locally manufactured products by 2020. Let me explain. The

Government has stopped the export of teak. The Minister of Finance complains

about Courts being a high consumer of foreign exchange. But has the Minister of

Finance and the Minister of industry thought about engaging in a conversation with

Courts whereby Courts will begin to partner with all our small furniture

manufacturers in the country to produce knock-down furniture in teak and

mahogany and so on for its—[Desk thumping] and therefore help to earn foreign

exchange in the country? I am only using that as one example of engagement with

a major partner like Courts. Let me just remind. It was our Government that

encouraged Courts to come and set up their Latin American operations [Desk

thumping] and provide 300 new jobs in Trinidad. We were creating jobs in this

country. [Desk thumping] Have you done that?

You see, this is not about economic magic, you know, it is about strategic

thinking, strategic partnership—[Desk thumping]—and this is why you should then

be taking your students in schools and your technical schools and training them in

woodwork. Listen, we have good woodworkers in this country. We have quality

woodworkers in this country and I am just identifying one way. Because one of

the resources you have and I understand that one of the largest resources of teak in

the world is Trinidad, and it is a very high quality, but what are you doing with it?

So you are not setting goals as a Government and because you are not setting

goals, therefore you are not able to expand the manufacturing sector.

You know the other area is what are you doing to grow ICT services? What

are you doing to grow ICT services? Many, many countries—India, all those

countries employ millions of people in providing ICT services.

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Mr. Charles: Outsourcing.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Outsourcing. We have the ability to do that in this country

and we were moving in that direction. What has happened to that programme? So

you are training all these people at the university, you are putting them through

ICT programmes, where are they going to be employed? You are supposed to

bring the investment in the country and get that support going and there are

examples here already where some of that is being done.

Madam Speaker, they scoffed eh, really, really scoffed. The Member for

Chaguanas East, when he was Minister, when he set up the aviation campus in

Couva, [Desk thumping] I think now they are moving to close down the aviation

campus. [Crosstalk]

Dr. Moonilal: They abandon the project.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Abandon the project not realizing that you could have also

been training foreigners there. [Crosstalk] These are very serious things. And

you know what? What we were projecting is a vision for total development; they

had projected none. [Desk thumping] There is no plan. When we said they never

had a plan, people were saying what do you mean? I hope, by today, you are

seeing what I meant, that you never had a plan. No plan. Madam Speaker, it hurts,

it hurts. They talking about recycling and reuse and everything else, we were

ahead on that. We were ahead on that. Our vision was one that spoke about the

green economy, the blue economy, the silver economy—a place for all—the

knowledge economy because we realize that we were competing in a knowledge-

driven world.

Madam Speaker, I can go on and on and show this Government what are the

elements of a very cogent, clear and viable plan, economic plan, that will bring

back prosperity to this country. I am not worried by the fact that we have to cut the

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cloth but as you cut the cloth, you have to engage in programmes for prosperity

building. I said somewhere else that if this Government was able to inspire

confidence in the people, the people themselves would engage in a form of

conservation of their tastes that will allow—

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Tabaquite, your speaking time has expired.

Dr. S. Rambachan: Thank you. [Desk thumping]

4.00 p.m.

The Minister of Social Development and Family Services (Hon.

Cherrie-Ann Crichlow-Cockburn): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the

opportunity to contribute to this Motion this afternoon, and I will be dealing more

specifically with the first part of the Motion, and that is:

“…that this House take note of the rising levels of unemployment,

growing poverty and deteriorating living standards…”

Madam Speaker, this Government in its statements and by its actions, has

clearly demonstrated that it has not implemented any wage freeze or wage-restraint

policy. [Desk thumping] Madam Speaker, if you just throw your mind back to the

situation with Petrotrin and OWTU, the outcome of that thus far would clearly

demonstrate that, one, this Government is committed to the whole concept of free

and fair collective bargaining. We are also very much aware of and inclined to

looking at each organization on a case-by-case basis, and you would also recognize

that an interim 5 per cent salary increase was in fact arrived at, at Petrotrin. So,

clearly, this Government is not inclined and has not implemented any wage freeze

or wage-restraint policy, and simply based on that alone this Motion really in truth

and in fact is baseless, because it seems to draw a causal link between a non-

existent policy and the issues of unemployment and poverty. [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker, I will now look at the whole issue of unemployment. This

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Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn (cont’d)

UNREVISED

Government acknowledges that there has been a sustained and gradual increase in

unemployment in Trinidad and Tobago. As a matter of fact, from the last quarter

in 2015 unemployment would have increased from about 3.5 per cent to about 4

per cent in 2016. But, what is very important and what I want this House and the

citizens of Trinidad and Tobago to note and to recognize, Trinidad and Tobago’s

unemployment rate are by no means high, and they are not outside of what the

economist described as the natural rate of unemployment. So, Madam Speaker,

despite the fact that Trinidad and Tobago is in an economic downturn, we are

operating in straightened economic times, even with all of that our unemployment

rate is still not considered high by international standards, by economists, because

it is below 5 per cent, which is considered the natural rate of unemployment. So,

while the other side may want to get the population believing that our

unemployment rate is so high, and it is disastrous, we are in—[Interruption]

Mr. Padarath:—[Inaudible]

Madam Speaker: Member for Princes Town, might I invite you to take

your tea break now and return later.

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just to

reiterate, that Trinidad and Tobago’s unemployment rate is currently below the

natural rate of unemployment. Madam Speaker, on January 27th, when the hon.

Member for Couva South brought this Motion, his intent clearly was to convey to

the public that unemployment had increased because of the leadership of Dr. The

Hon. Keith Christopher Rowley and this Government [Desk thumping] but nothing

is further from the truth. Our unemployment has been impacted by the economic

downturn—[Interruption]

Madam Speaker: Member for Diego Martin North/East, I know you most

probably have some important business to transact, I will invite you to transact it

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outside of the Chamber, please. [Interruption] Members, when I stand I remind

you all, again, of Standing Order 53. Member, please. Member for Diego Martin

North/East—[Motions with hand]

Mr. Imbert: Sure.

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: Madam Speaker, while those on the

opposite side seek to convince this House and the public of Trinidad and Tobago

that unemployment in Trinidad and Tobago is due primarily to the doings and

actions of this Government, and the state sector, that is not correct. A lot of

unemployment also occurs in the private sector, and the Government has no

control over the private sector.

We also look at the issue of retrenchment, and most of the retrenchment has

taken place within the private sector. We look at ArcelorMittal, we look at Oilbelt

Services Limited, we look at RBC, we look at Trinity Exploration and Production,

and those are some of the areas where we have had high levels of retrenchment. In

the public sector, yes there have been job losses, but I think it is very important for

us to look at and consider some of the reasons for those job losses, and one that

stands out has to do with the fact that under the PP’s administration a large number

of persons were employed in very key position who either did not possess the

qualifications, the capabilities, the skills, or the competencies. [Desk thumping]

And that, Madam Speaker, has now manifested itself in their inability to perform,

and this Government is about value for money. So, this Government is not

prepared, after those persons’ contracts expire, to retain them to continue the whole

cycle of non-performance, and this Government’s inability to achieve a lot of its

goals and objectives. So, Madam Speaker, that would be one of the reasons why in

the public sector you would have some levels of unemployment and persons

having lost their jobs

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Madam Speaker, I speak now about the Ministry of Social Development and

Family Services. You also had situations where programmes would have been

implemented for fixed periods, and what has happened is the period for a number

of those programmes have expired. Those programmes were not evaluated, and

some when evaluated we would have found that they were not living up to what

they were there to deliver. Madam Speaker, I listened just now to the hon.

Member for Tabaquite speak about displaced persons, and displaced persons

having to go to court. During their tenure they had the opportunity to provide

accommodation for displaced persons; that was not done. What was in fact done

was the establishment of an entity known as the Inter-Agency Unit, and what that

unit primarily did was to remove homeless people from the streets, put them

through a system where they were supposed to have been rehabilitated, but that did

not happen.

What we had was a revolving door situation where these persons went

through a process, and the persons who benefited from that were the owners of the

establishments where they were placed, but within a very short period of time they

ended up back on the streets and we still have the same situation persisting. That

inter-agency also duplicated—there was severe overlap with the established Social

Displacement Unit. So, you had a situation where we had parallel units operating

and, of course, what this meant is that the Government was spending in excess of

$2 million and we were not benefitting from having that inter-agency in place.

And, I am sure the Members of this House and the members of the public would

agree that in a situation like that where you are clearly not getting value for money,

you are not achieving the objective of rehabilitating displaced persons and having

them be reintegrated in society, then one of the course of actions is to either reduce

that unit or restructure the entire section so that we can get value for money and

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achieve the goals of treating successfully with the socially displaced

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Couva South would have indicated

that the job losses were approximately 5,000. That was initially, and that was

based on his assessment of media reports, and Central Bank of Trinidad and

Tobago estimates. However, as his contribution progressed he got to a figure of

25,000; no evidence was provided; nothing was provided to support that figure of

25,000. It is as if it was just pulled out of a hat or pulled out of the air. And what

was even more interesting, Madam Speaker, by his own admission he said that he

came up with that 25,000 figure by his being on the ground, getting advice from

contractors, and small and medium-sized businesses. I think we will all agree, that

is not the manner in which you arrive at a figure of unemployment for any area.

This is not a guessing game, and this not a matter of pulling figures out of the air.

So, Madam Speaker, this Government acknowledges there has been

unemployment, but there are a number of factors that would have contributed to

that unemployment, and in no way can it be simply ascribed to the fact that this

Government would have implemented a wage freeze or a wage restraint.

Madam Speaker, I come now to the area of poverty. Now, the hon. Member

for Couva South sought to link growing poverty to, again, the imaginary wage

freeze. Notwithstanding, we would look at the issue of poverty, and in the analysis

of the Trinidad and Tobago, Survey of Living Conditions for 2014 poverty report,

the findings were that poverty had in fact increased in Trinidad and Tobago over

the period 2005 to 2014. Poverty did not start increasing after September 2015. It

has been there, and it has been increasing over the last 10 years. And, it is

interesting, we have to ask ourselves why has poverty continued to increase after

successive Governments would have spent large sums of money, as a matter of

fact, billions of dollars. We simply need to look at the manner in which some of

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the programmes were established, and how some of the programmes were run. At

the Ministry of Social Development and Family Services, there is a programme

called The Targeted Conditional Cash Transfer Programme. Now this programme

is supposed to have two components. One has to do with food support where poor

and vulnerable persons are provided with a food card, and then you have the

conditional part of that. That is what was called “Rise Up”, and this means the

“Rights of Individuals to Social and Economic Security, Universal Prosperity”.

Now, Madam Speaker, what was supposed to happen under that conditional

aspect of the programme is that there was supposed to be a social worker working

directly with families who were provided with the food card so they could assist

them to be empowered to move out of that situation. Madam Speaker, and this

honourable Opposition who sits here every week and seeks to convince the country

that they care so much about the poor and the vulnerable, and they want to reduce

poverty, never implemented that aspect of the programme. What this means, is

that there was never an intent for persons to be moved out of poverty and out of

that situation where they could be self-sustained. So, Madam Speaker, it rings

very hollow with me when I sit here most weeks to hear the opposite side speak

about their care and their concern for the poor in this society, because their actions

are not in sync with their utterances.

Madam Speaker, the same Survey of Living Conditions for 2014 also found

that poverty was more linked with low earnings and low educational attainment

than it was with unemployment, and it is very important for this House and the

public to note that, because what is the suggested in this Motion is that rise in

poverty is directly linked to unemployment and wage freeze. The findings of the

Survey of Living Conditions 2014 suggests very strongly, and it is stated there, that

poverty is linked more closely with low earnings and low educational attainment,

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not a wage freeze. Madam Speaker, there were also found to be high targeted

areas in social programmes in Trinidad and Tobago, and one of my colleagues on

the opposite side would have also made reference to that. What the research has

found is that there are persons in Trinidad and Tobago who should not have been

provided with social services support who received the social services support.

And, if we go back to 2016, I know there was a lot of uproar in this

honourable House, particularly on the other side when it was discovered that there

were over 13,000 persons who had been in receipt of the food card, a food card

that is intended to provide basic food support to our poor and vulnerable, and when

they were called in for a review and they recognized that that assessment would

have identified the fact that they were not eligible, they never showed up. The

other side chose to say that we took back the cards. This Government—the

Ministry never took back cards, what happened is that these persons relinquished

the cards when they recognized that they had been made out. So, Madam Speaker,

we had high targeting errors, and we also had a situation where the system, the

programmes were not being properly managed, and you had a situation where

Government was spending over $110 million annually on persons who were not

eligible. What that means for this country is that over five years we would have

had $550 million, over half a billion dollars that could have been spent on the very

drugs and medication, and all the different things that the opposite side is speaking

about.

Madam Speaker, the Motion also spoke in terms of—sorry, Madam Speaker,

I am still with the issue of poverty. Now, under the previous administration, within

the Ministry of Social Development and Family Services there would have been

established two poverty reduction units, and the ultimate goal of that unit was to

work with the poor and vulnerable to reduce poverty. Part of what was required

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was the development and implementation of a national poverty reduction strategy,

and after that programme being in operation for three years, to this date that

national poverty reduction strategy has not been developed. Madam Speaker, I

believe we will all agree, if we are serious about reducing poverty there must be a

strategy developed to treat with poverty, and in the absence of that it is not

surprising that poverty has continued to increase. The unit was also required to

ensure that there was current data on poverty available, because this data is needed;

if we are supposed to have data-driven decisions, that is necessary. There was a

shortfall in that area. And, of course, we wanted to work collaboratively with the

organizations within the community, so 14 regional councils were supposed to

have been reconstituted and established. Despite raising that issue and assessing

the situation, it was discovered that action was taken with respect to one, and even

that after a period of time fell by the way, so the 14 regional councils were never

established. What that means for this country, it meant that the organization that

could have assisted the Government in working closely with the poor and

vulnerable within the community who would have known the persons there who

most needed the assistance; that never took place. Those councils were never

operationalized, they were never constituted. And, I am saying all of this this to

bring to this House attention, and the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, because you

have been seeing in the newspaper reports about persons contracts not being

renewed.

Madam Speaker, if a programme is approved and established for three years,

if that programme is to continue, the Ministry is required to take to Cabinet a

report which indicates and justifies the need for the continuation of such a

programme. Madam Speaker, in the absence of the national poverty reduction

strategy being developed, no data on poverty, no collaboration with the regional

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councils; a total absence of anything positive happening, no records as to how

much has poverty decreased or how many persons have been moved out of

poverty. Madam Speaker, as a responsible Minister and working together with the

executive in the Ministry of Social Development and Family Services, a decision

was taken to do a thorough review of that situation, we have identified the need to

restructure the poverty unit, and it is on that basis that persons whose contracts

expired were not renewed, [Desk thumping] for no other reason, Madam Speaker.

And I strongly believe that everyone in this House and this country wants value for

money for the public funds with which we are entrusted.

Madam Speaker, I want to touch now on a particular issue. The PNM

Government would have introduced the CEPEP programme, and this would have

been introduced with a view to fostering and building the entrepreneurial spirit

among the small man. Madam Speaker, imagine my surprise, I was totally

dumbfounded when I would have come across an article which would have

indicated—no, sorry, before I get to that, when that happened those on the other

side had totally negative opinions about the whole CEPEP programme. As a

matter of fact, the comment was made that they are feeding of the trough. Madam

Speaker, just think about that, feeding of the trough. So the persons who would

have benefited from that programme as far as they were concerned they were hogs.

Fast-forward, Madam Speaker, between 2010 and 2015, and for me to learn, and as

I stand here I am still in total shock and I am totally dumbfounded when I heard

and read about, on a platform at a meeting in Couva, where the statement was

made that a now former Minister had four CEPEP contracts.

Hon. Member: Wow! Who is that? Who is that? [Desk thumping]

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: I am not sure maybe the Member who

brought the Motion can assist us, or somebody from the other side may be able to

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say to us who that is. Okay.

But, Madam Speaker, just think about, this programme was intended for the

small man, the poor, the vulnerable, and here it is we had Members, a sitting

Minister having four CEPEP contracts. Even at that same meeting it was

suggested that the then chairman of the HDC also walked the corridors of CEPEP.

Madam Speaker, I find that reprehensible, because what it means—[Desk

thumping]—what it suggests is that one of the reasons poverty also continued to

increase is that the programmes that were intended to assist the poor and the

vulnerable was being taken over by persons who were very high on the agenda to

further fatten their pockets. We cannot condone that, Madam Speaker. [Desk

thumping]

Mrs. Jennings-Smith: So, what happen, they still have the contracts?

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: Madam Speaker, I want to look now at

deteriorating living standards. In the Motion it was suggested that the living

standards of the people of Trinidad and Tobago had been deteriorating over time.

No evidence was provided to support that statement, and I myself, in doing my

research, was not able to find any evidence that supported the fact that the living

standards in Trinidad and Tobago have been deteriorating.

Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, what I found is that most of the

households owned their homes, and that is 74 per cent of the people in Trinidad

and Tobago; 78 per cent of the people have pipe borne water to their homes; 90 per

cent have toilet facilities. It is almost universal in that 97 per cent have electricity,

mobile phones, and televisions, and, Madam Speaker, in the Survey of Living

Conditions report, even those who were deemed poor have motor vehicles. That in

no way suggests to me that the standard of living in this country is something to be

of concern about. As a matter of fact, in 2015 the United Nations Human

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Development Indicator for Trinidad and Tobago was 0.78, and that means that

Trinidad and Tobago was placed in the higher bracket. As a matter of fact, I think

we were 38 or something out of 100-and-something.

So, even at that level there is no indication that in Trinidad and Tobago there

is a deterioration of living standards. We recognize and we understand that

persons would have experienced, if you lost your job, of course you are going to

have some economic issues, but that is why the Ministry of Social Development

and Family Services is there. I noted that one of the speakers on that side, I believe

it was the Member for Caroni Central, he would have indicated that there have

been reduced social welfare benefits. That is a totally erroneous statement. There

has been no reduction in any of the programmes, any of the grants, any of the

services provided by the Ministry of Social Development and Family Services, and

every grant recipient would have received their senior citizens pension, their public

assistance grant, and their disability grants every month as of September 2015 to

now, with no reduction in the quantum.

There are also 13 general assistance grants to which citizens of Trinidad and

Tobago who are deemed poor, or indigent, or vulnerable and qualify can access.

And, one of those happens to be the rental assistance, where we provide assistance

with rental for three months so that persons who may have been displaced and

were evicted can have a roof over their heads. So, Madam Speaker, it is customary

for the UNC, and I understand they are the Opposition, to try to make the

Government—not show the Government in a good light, but I think it is very bad

for the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, when they come here week after week and

seek to put information in a particular light that can cause the citizens of this

country to be very concerned and border on hysteria. That is not acceptable,

Madam Speaker. [Desk thumping]

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And, Madam Speaker, I just want to make reference here in support of what

I would have just said, to a report in a Trinidad Guardian dated Wednesday,

March the 15th, 2017, and it is by Shaliza Hassanali, and the headline reads: “Flood

victims get $80,000 in household items”, and this relates to the people at Matelot

and Grande Riviere, the families who would have been affected by the situation up

there, and that is just one of the instances where this Government, and the Ministry

of Social Development and Family Services support persons who are either in dire

straits because of poverty or due to a disaster, would have found the need to be

assisted. So, it is totally incorrect and erroneous for the Member for Caroni

Central to sit there and say to the people of Trinidad and Tobago that there has

been a reduction in social welfare benefits. I want to reiterate and emphasize to the

people of Trinidad and Tobago that there has been no reduction, none whatsoever

in the social welfare benefits that are provided in this country. [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker, I now want to treat with the issue of “Government having

failed”, and these are the words I am quoting here, the hon. Member for Couva

South:

…that the Government has failed to create really one new single job

in Trinidad and Tobago.

Madam Speaker, 1,400 positions of municipal police officers have been

created, those positions have been advertised. [Desk thumping] The

operationalization of the new property tax regime is going to result in an additional

248.

Hon. Member: How much?

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: Two hundred and forty-eight positions, and

the establishment of the juvenile court system is going to result in an additional

297 jobs. [Desk thumping] Two hundred and sixty-nine on contract and 28—

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Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lopinot/Bon Air West, your original

30 minutes have expired. You are entitled to 15 more minutes, might I ask how

much longer you intent to be?

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: Madam Speaker, probably five minutes.

Madam Speaker: Okay, am, let us see where you are at 4.30. Okay?

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: Madam Speaker, so those were just a few

examples I would have given to this House in terms of the fact that this

Government has engaged in job creation. And, Madam Speaker, I want us to take

that within the context of the fact that we have been able to create jobs despite the

economic situation in this country. [Desk thumping]

And, the hon. Member for Tabaquite would have indicated, that it is because

we are not thinking strategically, and we have no vision why we have not done

anything. But, Madam Speaker, you could be the greatest strategic thinker, you

could have the best vision, if all of the money was utilized, and there is no capital,

no revenue, then there is very little that you can do [Desk thumping] and this is the

situation that this Government has found itself in. [Desk thumping] Other

Members on this side would have spoken at length about the $14 billion that was

utilized, that would have been with NGC. We know we came into a situation

where in 2015, or in 2010 there would have been probably about $6 at the Central

Bank, when we came in it was at minus $8 billion. This Government also inherited

huge debts, huge debts. And while the other side likes to say that we only like to

talk about what they did and go back. It is very important to place things within a

context, and the context is that this Government did admirably. This Government

has done exceptionally well to have achieved all that we have over the last 18

months [Continuous desk thumping] with what we came in and met.

I remember very distinctly hearing—I guess I can say it because you would

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know who it is—a permanent secretary making the comment, you have always

heard the remark when a new Government comes in, that the Treasury is empty.

This is the first time that it is a true statement. So, we came in here, Madam

Speaker, and met an empty Treasury. [Desk thumping]

Mr. Singh: You forget 86—[Interruption]

Madam Speaker: Member for Chaguanas West! Member, how much

longer would you be?

Hon. Member: Ten minutes. Ten Minutes.

Madam Speaker: All right, let us take the suspension now and continue

after.

4.30 p.m.: Sitting suspended.

5.00 p.m.: Sitting resumed.

Madam Speaker: Member for Lopinot/Bon Air West, you have 13 minutes

speaking time left. [Desk thumping]

Hon. C. Crichlow-Cockburn: Madam Speaker, in closing, I want to deal with

one final issue and that has to do with the fact that, during the presentation of the

Motion, it was suggested that this Government is not concerned about workers, and

in doing so reference was made to two ArcelorMittal workers. Madam Speaker,

we on this side empathize with those workers, but this Government was not

responsible for their plight. ArcelorMittal was a private organization and they

would have gone ahead and closed their operations in accordance with the existing

laws.

Madam Speaker, the mover of the Motion, who is a very experienced and

knowledgeable industrial relations practitioner, during his tenure with the

Government, had the opportunity to treat with amendments to the Industrial

Relations Act and the Retrenchment and Severance Benefits Act, and nothing was

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done. Madam Speaker, if that had been done, they would have been able to protect

those very workers for which he was putting forward a case and with whom we all

empathize.

Madam Speaker, just to say that this administration, this Government, under

the Minister of Labour and Small Enterprise Development, constituted a working

committee with representations from the different sectors, including the trade

union movement and have finalized draft amendments to both those pieces of

legislation: the Industrial Relations Act and the Retrenchment and Severance

Benefits Act, and that is now before Cabinet and a sub-committee of the Finance

and General Purposes Committee for review.

So, Madam Speaker, we are very concerned about the workers and wehave

demonstrated that concern and our interest in protecting them, and so we would

have brought amendments to those two pieces of legislation and other supporting

legislation to ensure that there is not a repeat of what would have taken place at

ArcelorMittal.

And so, Madam Speaker, as I close, I want to indicate that, as I would have

said when I started, since the mover of the Motion sought to draw a causal

relationship between the Government or the non-existent wage freeze policy and

the phenomena of unemployment and poverty, the Motion is baseless, and on that

basis, Madam Speaker, I cannot support it. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Desk

thumping]

Dr. Lackram Bodoe (Fyzabad): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, as I rise

to make a contribution in support of the Motion brought by my colleague, the

Member of Parliament for Couva South. I must say it is a most appropriate Motion

in a time when our society is in a lot of turmoil, social turmoil, political turmoil,

and, of course, many social issues. So I want to commend and compliment my

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Dr. L. Bodoe (cont’d)

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colleague and indeed all of those who would have spoken on this side of the Bench

on this Motion.

Before I go into the Motion though, Madam Speaker, permit me just to

comment on a few points made by the Member for Lopinot/Bon Air West. In fact,

she did state that there was no policy of wage freeze/wage restraint but, you know,

as a nation we are aware that is actually the practice. But I would not go into that

any further.

What I would want to do is to just look at the ArcelorMittal situation that the

Member closed on and really to ask the question one year later, in terms of what

assistance has been provided, and, you know, to raise the question,Madam

Speaker. Today we are talking about public and private companies and that is

good. That is all well and fine. But my interpretation of the role of any

government is that a government’s role it to look after all the citizens, whether they

are employed in the public sector or the private sector and I think as a Parliament,

as an Executive on the other side, we need to understand that. [Desk thumping]

So, you know, it really is easy to wash your hands off and say okay it is the private

sector companies and so on, but I think at the end of the day we have a

responsibility to look after all the citizens and that is why we are here. That is why

we are elected to the Parliament.

The Member did mention, of course, that the long awaited amendments to

the labour laws are now coming before the Attorney General. And, of course, we

look forward to the amendments to those appropriate laws. It will also be very

interesting for us to find out one year later, how many of these ArcelorMittal

workers have been re-employed, have gained employment back in the society.

That is something which, I am sure, would be useful information for us to find out

and whether it really is in fact true that attempts by the company to meet with the

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Government to try to, you know, resolve the situation or to create some sort of

opportunities for the workers was met with some resistance. Perhaps, we can get

some clarification on that. [Desk thumping]

What we witnessed as well, the Member mentioned the unemployment rate

was not significant and compared the figures in Trinidad and Tobago with those

internationally, and that is fine. I mean, but really having any sort of

unemployment ratio whilst, it is known, is still not acceptable. The question really

is what are we doing [Desk thumping] to assist those who have been retrenched,

and again, I made the point that the Government is responsible for all of the

citizens, whether they are employed in the public sector or the private sector. So I

just wanted to make that point, Madam Speaker.

It brings us to the point, and we have witnessed arguments in this House

today, as to which figures are correct and we come to the whole issue of

data-gathering in this country, and that is where we have a major issue, in terms of

whatever we talk about, unemployment level, poverty levels. We have to be able

to measure before we can manage, before we can treat. That is how it is in the

field of medicine, from which I have my experience. Before you can manage

something, you must know what you are talking about. You have to measure it.

So we come down to the issue of providing proper data, of the measurement,

of getting proper statistics and I know there have been concerns raised on the other

side about the validity of statistics provided by the Central Statistical Office but we

see today that, perhaps, the Government seems to be accepting those figures. But

the point being is that we really need to have reliable figures and I look forward to

the creation of the national statistical institute, was it called by the Minister of

Finance in his last budget presentation, perhaps a body that would provide us with

statistics as we go forward trying to solve the nation's problems.

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The Member for Lopinot/Bon Air West also mentioned the issue of

homelessness.

Mrs. Robinson-Regis: Would the Member give way?

Dr. L. Bodoe: Oh, sure.

Mrs. Robinson-Regis: Thank you very kindly. I just wanted to indicate that there

has been progress, with regard to the national statistical institute. The draft

legislation is before the Attorney General’s Office and the report of the committee

that is establishing the institute is imminent and it will be before the Cabinet within

a month's time. So I just wanted to give you the assurance that we are moving

forward with that.

Dr. L. Bodoe: Thank you very much, Minister, and I thank you for that

information. I am sure the nation would be pleased to hear that progress is being

made in that direction.

The Member also raised the issue of homelessness and the treatment of

homeless citizens was also raised. That issue was also highlighted earlier in the

week when we had a situation and the Minster of Housing, the Member for San

Fernando East, who is here, was called upon to answer the question with regard to

the eviction of homeless from an unsafe site. I understand that, but I think as a

society we also need to look at how we really address the whole issue of

homelessness, especially in a situation where we are going to be facing difficult

economic circumstances. [Desk thumping]

Minister of Housing, I draw your attention, it is just a thought, and this comes from

an interaction that I had with a constituent at my office on Tuesday, who came to

me, 39 years old, and, perhaps his story illustrates what is really happening in the

society. He is 39 years old. He came, he worked for the regional corporation. He

is not being paid. He has a rent which he manages to meet every month of $3,000

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but he does not have a fixed job, and his question to me as the Member of

Parliament was: MP you know, I kind of meet all the requirements but I do not

have a job, how do I get a house? To me, that was a valid question, and I am sure

many citizens in this country face the same issue. Maybe, perhaps, the time has

come, Minister,Member for San Fernando East, for us to look at the housing policy

and how we prevent these people from falling through the cracks. You know,

sometimes it is all good and well to have stringent requirements and regulations,

and that is fine. But then how do we deal with those who are in the grey zone, in

the grey area, that are neither black nor white?

So Minister, I invite you to look at that, perhaps to review it. I am sure there

is a significant number of citizens who are in that same position, and, perhaps,

some sort of category, some sort of compromise could be reached in a situation

like that.

We also have the issue, and I am sure many Members of Parliament face the

issue of those citizens who are what you call squatters. They are not regularized

and again, that is an issue that we need to address as a society.

And, of course, the Member mentioned about the figure for unemployment

that was given by the Member for Couva South. But, again, you know, with all

due respect, I mean, because it is difficult to get proper statistics in this country the

Member would have gone on what is reported in the newspapers, and so on, and by

the available agencies.

We talked about the measurement of poverty. And, again, we are talking

about the measurement of poverty but I understand and I would like clarification as

to whether the poverty eradication unit at the Ministry, I am sorry the Minister is

not here to respond, has been closed down. If this is the case, then how are we

expected to collect data on poverty? How are we expected to analyze the impact of

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whatever policies that may have been implemented, the impact on the society and

on the problem?

I also thought it was very interesting that the Member took pains to point out

that poverty was more linked to low education and low earnings, you know.

Again, the important thing here is: how do we deal with the issue of poverty.

Madam Speaker, you know, when that issue came up, and of course, there is a link.

People say often that education is the pathway, it is a tool that can take you out of

poverty, that is well recognized. But there are many other factors, and again when

we look at the issue of young Rachel Ramkissoon who, in trying to pursue an

education for whatever reason, missed her bus, and so on, missed her

transportation and unfortunately got killed and died. The sad news about that is

really what happened later on when the results of her examinations were reported

and she turned out to be an excellent student.

So there it is, we have a situation where someone and, of course, this would

apply to many students across the country, who are trying to take themselves out of

poverty by way of education and yet they are being threatened by other situations,

economic circumstances, the crime circumstances, and that is something that, as a

society we need to look at; how do we facilitate the young ones achieving a proper

education? Of course, there are other challenges in the education system. We

have the whole issue—and of course the Ministers of Education have their hands

full with the issues that are taking place in the schools at the moment, bullying and

violence in schools and students, you know, rising up against teachers, and so on,

and that is something as a society we need to look at in an holistic manner, a very

careful manner.

The Minister mentioned about the abuse of the food card system. But just to

point out again we have the issue here of the systems that we are using, you know,

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to grant state benefits and I talk about the use of technology here and, perhaps, I

am not sure how far along we are, in terms of replacing the manual system that I

believe is used in the Ministry by a biometric system, you know, to allow a

seamless transition and to allow, you know, transparency and proper allocation of

food cards, and so on. So, again this is an area where the technology can assist us.

We would have read of the unfortunate story of a university student who

have unfortunately committed suicide in the last week or so and of the unfortunate

attempt of him not being able to access help after the hours of four o'clock. I am

told that the funding was not given to the lifeline programme. But, again I would

want the Government to correct that, to tell me that that is not true. Because if that

was so it would be very, very unfortunate because we really cannot have a service

like that. What steps are being taken? We cannot have a service like that not

being available after 4.00 p.m. So, we look forward to those answers.

The whole issue of CEPEP was mentioned, and so on. I just want to say in

passing that at least CEPEP did make a contribution towards the refurbishment of

many of the health centres in this country. [Desk thumping] So they were utilized

for that purpose and I ask the question whether the contractors are being paid. And

as we are talking about difficult economic circumstances and the creation of jobs

and unemployment, it would be important to ensure that these contractors are paid

so that the workers do not lose their jobs from those contractors.

Madam Speaker, the Member went on to speak about living standards. Just

permit me, Madam Speaker, to go back to the terms of this Motion, and the terms

of the Motion was that:

“Be it resolved that this House take note of the rising levels of

unemployment…”

Of course, we have had a lot data. There have been many reports in the

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newspapers about the statistics, and so on, and my colleagues have dealt with that

at length. I will not go into those statistics again, and the:

“growing poverty…”

And of course,

“deteriorating living standards…”

So, you know, what are the ideal living standards? What is really meant by

living standards?

The Member mentioned that as a nation we are quite fortunate, I think the

figure of over 70 per cent was mentioned, in terms of material possessions. All of

us have cars. Many of us own our own homes. We have TVs. We have toilet

facilities, and so on. So we really have the material facilities that enable us to

enjoy a good standard of living but are we really enjoying a good standard of

living? Can any of the citizens in this country really say that they are comfortable,

they are happy? They might be so physically but the question is that to some

extent citizens’ security and safety and your mental state of mind contributes to

your standard of living. In fact, Madam Speaker, I will go so far as to say that

there are many people, you know, who in their own minds, if they have the peace

and comfort of walking in the street, of going in the park to exercise without fear,

they themselves would say that they are living a good standard. I put it to this

House and to the Members here that in fact we have seen a deterioration in the

living standards when we look at the holistic picture again. Because you can have

a nice car but if you cannot drive it at night or in the daytime now, I mean what is

the point of it?

There is a little joke on the WhatsApp, Madam Speaker, and it speaks about,

you know, the wife and husband and when they go to bed in London, it is sweet

dreams, but in Trinidad the husband asks the wife: Have you locked the windows?

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It is just an example of where we are as a society and the kind of priorities that we

now have to pay attention to, Madam Speaker.

So, I am just making that point with regard, and to say that we in fact have

experienced a deterioration in the living conditions in this country, despite the fact

that we have done well materially. And this is good for us, I mean, we are 55 years

of Independence we are approaching developed nation status, if we are not already

there and, of course, we had the International Day of Happiness, I believe, just a

few days ago and again it will be important in terms, I know we celebrated that,

but are we really happy at a nation? Can we truly say that we are happy in the

conditions that we face at this point in time?

So, of course, the other measure is the mental stress and we know that

mental stress can be exacerbated by the fear of crime and the threat of job losses.

You know, Madam Speaker, people in this country now have become very wary of

listening to the news on Thursday afternoons, because that is the Post-Cabinet

press conference and many workers now view Thursday as a dark day in this

country [Desk thumping] because that is when many of them hear for the first time

that they are losing their jobs.

You know the point about it, Madam Speaker, is that whilst it is important to

rationalize jobs and to rationalize the existence of organizations and so on, and this

is all well and good and important. Those of us who, all of us in fact on this side,

despite what has been said. We are all patriots. We are all here to contribute to the

country and to make sure that our fellow citizens enjoy a good standard of living.

But the point is that when—I went away. I lost my thoughts here a bit; I will come

back to that, Madam Speaker.

All right, I just want to address the issue of citizen assistance grant and I was

happy to hear the Minister say the grant is still there. Minister, that is good news

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but the question is I still have constituents who come to my office and say they are

not receiving the grants. So I will want to know despite the citizens assistance

grants are there, whether in fact the numbers are being cut in this. So that is an

answer I will be looking forward to, in terms of the benefits of not being decreased

but only the numbers have been decreased. So those are some of the points that I

would have wanted to respond to, with regard to what the Member for

Lopinot/Bon Air West would have said.

I just wanted to move on and to look at the Motion, in terms of the issue, the

second issue, which would be that:

“…the House condemn this Government for its failure to deal with current

unemployment challenges and to present a clear a cogent economic plan to

guide the country through these challenges.”

My colleague here, the Member for Princes Town, in his contribution

brought up the issue of an unemployment commission, which I think he would

have gotten from the UK system and I would want to support that and, perhaps,

commend that for consideration by the Government. It is something that was done

in the UK and seems to have worked and, perhaps, it is something that we should

look at and I would support that recommendation from my colleague, the Member

for Princes Town.

Now, with regard to the economic plan, the clear and cogent economic plan

of the Government, I want to raise the issue of something called a critical juncture,

Madam Speaker. Over the years, when we look at societies and how they have

evolved, there have been many issues. There have been many situations

throughout the course of history when societies and countries have experienced or

reached a point of what is called a critical juncture and it is called a critical

juncture because, depending on the decision that is made by those in power at that

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point in time, the country can either rise, can either improve, or the country can go

down.

I put it to you, Madam Speaker, that we in Trinidad and Tobago have

reached, we are experiencing this economic downturn, can be looked at and

viewed as a critical juncture. I just want to give a few examples to make the point

of how these things work and how they are looked at. If we go back to the 14th

Century and we look at the bubonic plague, the Black Death. It is important to

learn from history and, of course, my friend, the Member for Moruga/Tableland,

will know what I am speaking about being the historian that he is. But the thing

about it is that the effect of the Black Death or the bubonic plague, which killed

millions of people in Europe had an entirely different effect on England as

compared to Europe and it may have been due to geographical circumstances.

Perhaps it was easier to spread in the continent of Europe because it is landlocked

and Britain/UK may have been spared because of the sea. But that has been one

issue. But another, perhaps important issue would have been the reaction of the

people to this challenge that they faced. But we would look at it. We can talk

about it.

The other critical juncture I mentioned here would be the issue of the

glorious revolution and the establishment of the Parliament, and this pertains to us,

in the UK in 1688 or thereabouts, when the power was rested from the aristocracy

and the kings and queens, and so on, and brought to the Parliament, and that, of

course, could have gone either way at a critical juncture.

The other one I want to mention, of course, is the industrial revolution where

some societies have benefited and we have seen the UK, for example, and another

societies are benefiting tremendously from that, whereas other countries did not

use the opportunity to be able to bring the benefits from that industrial revolution

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to their societies.

And last but not least, I want to refer to what is commonly called the new

deal, which happened under the watch of President Roosevelt in about 1933, and

that would have followed the 1929 Great Depression, and again the United States

had a challenge there on their hands, in terms of how would they deal with this.

You know, I commend the steps that the US Government would have taken,

Madam Speaker, at that time and I encourage the Minister of Finance and my

friend, my own MP from San Fernando West, to look at that and see whether there

are not some lessons that can be learnt from that, because at that point in time,

Madam Speaker, bold decisions were taken, very bold decisions were taken,

despite the fact that there was not much money in the economy, in terms of

infrastructure development.

It provided the opportunity, for example, for the whole railroad system to be

implemented and built across the United States, many significant structures, and so

on and rather than create and oversee job losses, what would have happened is that

money would have been injected in terms of trying to boost the economy. And, of

course, my colleague, the Member of Parliament for Caroni Central would have

spoken about that at length and, of course, he is an expert in that area, and he

would have said a whole lot about that. I think that is the point he was trying to

make and I want to support that.

As we speak about critical junctures, Madam Speaker, I just want, with your

permission, to commend to the House a book that I have been reading. It is a book

called Why Nations Fail. I think it would be very interesting reading for all

Members, because it gives us the story. It gives us the reasons as to why some

nations will progress forward from a critical juncture, as opposed to why some

nations will not progress forward. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised myself.

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Perhaps the economist would not be but, you know, there have been three theories

as to why there is inequality between nations. And I talk about inequality between

nations but it can also account for, you know, inequality in societies as well.

In this book, they debunked those theories because they thought that

geographical location had nothing to do with it. It was disproved. It was also, the

myth of culture was also debunked in that and the myth of ignorance of technology

was also debunked and it came down to really looking at which societies adapted

what are called inclusive institutions, as opposed to extractive institutions. But I

leave that debate open and my colleague from Moruga/Tableland is nodding. I am

sure he knows what I am speaking about and that provides some good examples as

to how we should go forward and what pathway we should take as we move

forward.

So, Madam Speaker, in terms of the plan, the economic plan of the

Government, it might very well be that the Government has a plan. I think the

problem that is coming out here is that the citizenry is not aware of the plan. So I

am asking today, Madam Speaker: Is it that the Government has a plan that is not

being communicated to the citizens? In fact, is the population being asked to

sacrifice and if so for what future benefit? And if that is the case, well then come

out and let us know. Let the population know if this is a sacrifice that they have to

make, but they must also see 2018, 2019, 2020. They must be able to see the

picture. They must be able to see the vision as to where they are heading and if

that is not communicated then, of course, there is going to be a lot of discomfort, a

lot of discontent in the society. So if that is the case, let us know. Or, Madam

Speaker, is it that the population is being made to suffer by an inept and clueless

Government? [Desk thumping] Is that the case? I do not know. I do not know,

Madam Speaker. I do not know. That is what people are saying. A lot of people

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are saying that.

5.30 p.m.

So, you know, I call upon the Government, if they have a case, make their

case. That is what I am saying, Madam Speaker. And, of course, we have had all

the issues and all the debate about the importance of oil and gas in this economy,

and the fact that the revenues have dropped 90 per cent from oil and gas.

You know, I would tell you again, sometimes it is very important to

appreciate—and I say this very carefully and very guarded—and to understand the

opportunity in a crisis. Sometimes in a society where you have been accustomed

to having a lot of money, a lot of convenience, it is difficult to become efficient, it

is difficult to change things. There are things that you want to change in the

society, but you cannot do it because life is too comfortable, it is too easy for

everyone. And, therefore, I put it to the Members in this House that we really have

a great, a golden opportunity at this juncture in our nation building to look at the

opportunity in this crisis and to do some of the things that need to be done that

could not be done before. I speak of course to—and we have kind of gone back

now to the future—well we have gone back to 1980, not back to the future—but it

is amazing that what has happened is that between 1980 and 2015, we have had the

oil boom, we had the dollars flowing, but we are really back in history now in

terms of where we are financially and, therefore, we need to look at how we do

business.

And, of course, Madam Speaker, it means that we have to be able to learn to

do more with less. This is basically what we are saying here, we have to do more

with less. The Minister of Finance, yesterday in his post-Cabinet press conference

pointed out quite correctly that the Government expenditure, $50 billion-plus, it

varies, but it is about one-third of the GDP, and that is a significant figure and, of

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course, that kind of expenditure must translate into better service for citizens and,

therefore, we look forward to the improvement in the service that is being offered

in the public sector. This is an issue that we as citizens on a daily basis face, the

issue of poor service in the public sector.

I know the Member for La Horquetta/Talparo has been trying his best. It is

not as easy. You know, Member, this is not about which Government did it better

and which Government cannot do it and which Government could do. We have to

understand, we have to accept that it is a culture that has been embedded over

years and, therefore, we have to understand that now is the time and the

opportunity to try to change things.

Madam Speaker: Hon Member for Fyzabad, your original 30 minutes have

expired, you are entitled to 15 more minutes. You may proceed.

Dr. L. Bodoe: Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Desk thumping] But the point I was

going to make, Madam Speaker, it is important for us as Members in this House to

get away from trying to show that we have made changes. The Minister of Public

Administration and Communications cannot come here and convince me that in 18

months he has transformed the public service. We know that cannot happen in 18

months. But if he comes here and he tells me that he is making an effort and he is

using the opportunity in this crisis to put the things in place that are required to

transformed the public service, it would be more credible; it would be more

believable and, of course, we are here to support whatever measures are necessary

to make sure that transformation takes place.

And, of course, we talk about increasing the technology in the public sector

and so on—things we have spoken about—but one of the issues I also want to

raise, Madam Speaker—and the Member and I spoke briefly about this during the

break—is the issue—because I said to the Member—he told me—and I say this—

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things have improved. We talked about flexitime and people coming to work at

different hours and so on, and I said to him, I say, “I do not see it on the road,

because we still have a tremendous amount of congestion on the road and what is

the reason for that.” So we have to look at our transportation policy.

Many of us travel and we know that when we travel, for example, in Florida

that the third or the extra lane is reserved for what are called the HOVs, the high

occupancy vehicles, and that means that you must have, at least, three or more

passengers in that vehicle to use that lane and, of course, the benefit of that is that

you get to use a lane with less traffic. So, perhaps, the lane from Chaguanas—that

third lane from Chaguanas into Port of Spain—is something that could be looked at

as a high occupancy vehicle lane and something that could help to cut the traffic

down into Port of Spain. It is just a suggestion, something to look at, small

measures that are not going to cost anything at all with great convenience for our

citizens.

As we spoke about the issue of flexitiming and varying the hours coming to

work and, again, in discussion I have to give the credit it to the Member for

Lopinot/Bon Air West who actually pointed that in fact, if you do that, and if you

ask mothers to come to work at nine o’clock and 10 o’clock to avoid the traffic, but

what do they have to do? They have to carry their children to school, they have to

bring their children to school. So they coming at nine o’clock still means they will

come at eight o’clock. So then, do we look at providing facilities for the children

or do we look at a bussing system as we have available in some other countries?

But, of course, the whole issue of the safety of children and how they would be

cared for and looked after and so on—and the public transportation comes into

play—but that is something perhaps the Government could look at.

Madam Speaker, I also heard a statement from the Member of Parliament for

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Diego Martin North/East yesterday. I am sorry he is not here to respond. Was he

put out, Member? [Laughter and crosstalk] I was not aware. But, Madam

Speaker, he spoke about the capacity of the public sector to spend $60 billion. He

said that he believed that in this country we do not have the capacity to spend $60

billion. Madam Speaker, and if that is in fact true—which I do not think it is

true—I think it is a sad condemnation and maybe even a mark of disrespect for

those public servants who, with the right leadership, with the proper leadership,

would be willing to drive the public sector and to drive the implementation of the

Government’s policies. I believe it can be done, Madam Speaker. I believe it just

requires the political will. It requires, of course, the governance, the proper

governance structures in the many state enterprises that we have. I know that the

state enterprises are being reviewed and rationalized and that is important.

The Member for Caroni Central made that very important point in his

contribution, and I agree with him that some of these state enterprises perhaps need

to be reviewed and, perhaps, some of them need to be closed down. But, again, I

make the point that it is the manner in which they are rationalized and closed down

that is important, because we have to remember that we are dealing with human

beings, we are dealing with fellow citizens.

So again, Madam Speaker, I look at that and, of course, the capacity can also

be increased. Again, we look at the importance of technology in terms of being

able to increase the capacity of the public sector. We also need to look at some of

the issues that sometimes prevent the decrease or make it difficult to do business.

If you would allow me to quote, Madam Speaker, from the Guardian published

March 22nd and the headline is “Courts Chairman on ease of doing business: T&T

must address three major issues”. He pointed out—and this is the Unicomer Group

chairman, Mario Siman of Courts saying that one—and he mentioned three issues.

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And, again, I throw this out for the Government’s consideration and I quote,

Madam Speaker:

“One is the tremendous inherited red tape that a business has to

overcome to get business done.”

And, of course, in situations where we are trying to attract as much business as

possible, especially foreign investors, that is something that we need to look at

very carefully.

“The second area of concern is the unavailability of foreign exchange.”

And these are the words of the Courts chairman. And:

“The third…is the limited availability of properties to expand our

business at a reasonable pace and cost.”

Three very important points for the consideration of the Government.

So, Madam Speaker, we are indeed in a situation where we are faced with a

crisis. We are faced with an economic crisis and we really need to look at—you

know, we speak about diversification and we have to move away from the mindset

that the oil and gas revenue are going to come back soon and, therefore, we have to

use the opportunity to diversify and to look at the other issues, and to look at what

we can make, what we can export.

I would just want to close with a thought for the Member for St. Joseph, the

Minister of Health. The Minister spoke about the number of unemployed doctors

that are available in the system. He said that he does not know the numbers and he

has asked the RHAs and so on to provide the numbers, and that is all well and

good and, perhaps, those numbers will come to him. But, perhaps, the time has

come when we need to rationalize in terms of the doctors who are unemployed,

how we are going to deploy them. And if in fact we have an excess of doctors and

lawyers—the Member of Parliament for Port of Spain North/St. Ann’s West—so

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you agree there is an excess? So what do we do? What do we do with this trained

manpower that is paid for by the State? It is paid for by the State because our

tertiary education is heavily subsidized. What do we do? Should we consider

doing like some of the other countries and exporting this highly trained workforce

that would bring back some measure of benefit to the Government? [Desk

thumping] So, Madam Speaker, I am just throwing that out. It is just a thought

that I am throwing out. [Laughter] So here we are, perhaps our doctors could be

working regionally up the islands: Barbados, Jamaica and our lawyers as well—

our attorneys as well, Madam President, and, of course, you being a prominent

attorney yourself. So this is just for consideration and that could also apply to

other categories of service and professionals and so on.

As I close, Madam Speaker, I will want to trust and hope that the Member

for St. Joseph in the design of his proposal for the public/private partnership for the

Couva Children’s Hospital, would have given due consideration for the issue of

medical tourism in that proposal. So, with those few words, Madam Speaker, I

thank you for the opportunity. [Desk thumping]

Mrs. Robinson-Regis: Madam Speaker, before I move the adjournment, will we

be having the greetings?Madam Speaker: You could move it and then we will

have greetings.

Mrs. Robinson-Regis: Thank you very kindly for your direction.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Planning and Development (Hon. Camille Robinson-Regis):

Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn to April 5th—

Wednesday, April 05th, at 1.30 p.m. at which time we will continue debate on the

Marriage Bill. Thank you very kindly.

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Greetings 2017.03.24

(Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day)

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Greetings

(Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day)

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, before I put the question of the adjournment to

the House, I am sure Members are aware that next week we will be celebrating

Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day. I would now call upon Members to

express greetings on the occasion of Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day,

2017. Member for Moruga/Tableland. [Desk thumping]

The Minister in the Ministry of Education (Hon. Dr. Lovell Francis): Madam

Speaker, good evening, and same good evening to all the Members of the House.

It is a particular pleasure for me to stand and spend a few more moments bringing

greetings to the Spiritual Shouter Baptist community of Trinidad and Tobago and

the wider nation on the incipience of Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day. I

do so on both hands because as the sitting Member for Moruga/Tableland, the

mecca of the Baptist faith is from my constituency, and also because in my former

career as an academic, I wrote academic papers on the development of this

community.

Madam Speaker, the Baptist faith arrived in Trinidad in 1816 with the arrival of the

Merikin people who were soldiers who fought in the war of 1812—escaped slaves

who fought for their freedom in the War of 1812—andwere relocated to Trinidad

at the end of that war by the British Empire.

It might not be widely known but, it should be, that this is a very

multifaceted religion, but if I had to categorize the Baptist faith in Trinidad into

two categories, I would denote one category Orthodox Baptist and the other

unorthodox, simply because within three decades of their arrival in Trinidad there

was a clash of universes, a meeting of worlds, because the London Baptist society

came to Trinidad to minister to them. There were those who accepted the

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(Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day) (cont’d)

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missionaries into their churches, into their organizations, and there were those who

did not. Those who did not were initially called “waste head and candle Baptist”

because they had a penchant for having services at the side of the road as opposed

to in churches.

Their initial response to the coming of the missionaries was that they were

unwilling to make the change as mandated by the missionaries because there was

this belief that they were all these Africanisms that were part of their version of the

faith that had to be removed that they had to become more orthodox. They refused

to “parlay”, to use that term, with the missionaries and that group which was

initially called the “waste head and candle Baptist” would eventually evolve into

the Spiritual Baptist faith.

It was once believed that the origin of this faith was in contestation, that

there was a movement in St. Vincent called “Shakerism” that impacted on its

development and growth. It is now understood by academics that this is a local

indigenous religion that may have outside influences, but was developed here

wholly and solely.

Madam Speaker, if one were to come to Moruga and drive from Petit Cafe

all the way to Marac which is at the end of the community, one would note a

number of Baptist churches literally almost on the main road. You could drive

through the Company villages—Fifth Company, Third Company, First Company

and St. Mary’s. There was even on my junction in Basseterre all the way to Marac,

and there are a number of Baptist churches that are very close to the main road.

But if you were to observe a little closely, you would note that all of those

churches were actually examples of the Orthodox Baptist faith, either London

Baptist or Independent Baptist. The reason being, of course, that in 1917 a

Prohibition Act was passed which outlawed the Spiritual Baptist faith. Why?

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(Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day) (con’d)

Hon. Dr. L. Francis (cont’d)

UNREVISED

Because, officially, it was considered to be a public nuisance, but the real reason

was because colonial Government in Trinidad, Crown Colony Government, tended

to view any religion—any cultural expression that was as decidedly Afrocentric as

a threat to the nation, and the Spiritual Baptists who were overtly Afrocentric in

their religious devotions and in their services were considered to be anathema to

the ideals of colonial society, so an Act was passed in 1917 that literally outlawed

the faith.

The end result of that was that today if you find most traditional Spiritual

Baptist churches, they are located far removed from the main roads. Why?

Because to practise the faith one had to do it in secret. You had to build a church

somewhere off the beaten path and you had to hope that someone would not report

you to the police, because if they did, these churches were often subjected to police

raids with all the brutality that could be meted out by a colonial police force. So

people were beaten for practising their religions; people were hauled before the

courts; people were adjudged fines simply because of the desire to practise their

faith as they desire. This lasted until 1951, until better sense prevailed and this law

was rescinded.

So why are we today commemorating and celebrating Spiritual Shouter

Baptist Liberation Day? It is because as part of our Constitution we understand

that people have a fundamental right to practise their faith as they desire. It is

because we accept and venerate those people who had the courage to practise their

faith even when the State wrongly—and I want to emphasize this part—wrongly

stated that they had no right to do so. It was because of the people who had the

desire to stand up for freedom.

Madam Speaker, if we understand that emancipation is a long process, not

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Hon. Dr. L. Francis (cont’d)

UNREVISED

one that just started and ended in 1834 or 1838, but one that has taken perhaps

more than a century to be accomplished. If we understand that Indian indentured

ending is part of that, and that the liberation of women is part of that, and that the

granting of the franchise is part of that, and that Independence and Republicanism

are part of that, then Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day must also be seen in

a larger context of us becoming a more egalitarian, more independent and a more

free society.

So it is my pleasure today on behalf of the Government to wish the Spiritual

Shouter Baptist community a happy Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day, and

to say that as Minister of Education this is a story that should form part of our

history, and as long as I am here, it will be put into the history texts. Thank you,

Madam Speaker. [Desk thumping]

Mr. Rodney Charles (Naparima): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Next

Thursday, March 30th marks the celebration of Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation

Day, and we are pleased on this side, and I am pleased as a practising member of

the Baptist faith, to celebrate this important occasion. [Desk thumping]

Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day celebrates and commemorates the

repeal on March 30, 1951 of the 1917 Shouter Prohibition Ordinance, a piece of

colonial architecture which sought to diminish and subjugate the contribution of

Shouter Baptists in our country. The Shouter Baptist faith, as we all know, was

characterized by a rebellious spirit which refused to acknowledge and pay homage

to the religious orthodoxy of the colonial dispensation. It incorporated African

rhythms and wordings that appealed to the essence of the spirituality of the poor

and disenfranchised ex-slaves. It spoke to their struggles; it spoke to their trials

and their tribulations.

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Mr. R. Charles (cont’d)

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There were three strands of the Baptist religion. There was the London

Baptist faith who were mentored by the Baptist Missionary Society, which played

a pivotal role in the educational development of the American slaves who chose to

fight on the side of the British in the 1812 War between Britain and the United

States. The BMS built one secondary school, the Cowen Hamilton Secondary

School, and three primary schools at Marac, Hindustan and Fifth Company.

Another strand of the Baptist were what we call, and they still exist today, the

Independent Baptists, who used the doctrines that were similar to the London

Baptist, but refused to acknowledge the leadership of the Baptist Missionary

Society, and then there were the Shouter Baptists who emphasized a spirituality

that linked the Bible and its teachings with critical aspects of the African religions.

They were charismatic. They shouted, they rang bells and sang songs that spoke to

the emotional association with God as evinced by the songs:

“Somebody touched me, somebody touched me, somebody touched my

soul.”

We on this side have been faithful to our fellow citizens of the Spiritual

Baptist faith. It was under the UNC—and I do not want to make this political—

that the Spiritual Baptist were given a national holiday—[Desk thumping] and that

is an historical fact—on March 30th. [Crosstalk] It is a fact. It was under the

UNC, when the price of oil was less than $17 a barrel that a brand new school,

primary school, was built at Fifth Company and Moruga in the year 2000. That

school was valued at $20 million, the price of oil $17. It was under the UNC that a

new Early Childhood Care and Education Centre was built adjacent to the Princes

Town Baptist Church. It still exists today. It was also under the UNC that the St.

Barbara’s Shouter Baptist Primary School was built at Maloney together with an

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Mr. R. Charles (cont’d)

UNREVISED

early childhood centre. So we have a Government, two terms, and they have built

four educational institutions and this is unparalleled in the post-independence

history of our country. [Desk thumping]

So we join with all of us. We join with all of us in this House and, indeed,

the national community in bringing greetings to members of the Spiritual Baptist

faith. It is our hope that they will develop—record their tenets of their faith, that

they will be assisted to develop seminaries to give a certain credence and

legitimacy to the Baptist faith, that they will evangelize—that they will go into

Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of Trinidad and Tobago and evangelize our

country and assist in the spiritual resurgence so necessary for the development of

our country and the challenges we face at this time.

Madam Speaker, I am honoured to be part of this celebration of the Spiritual

Baptist. We wish them well. We, on both sides of the House, will do all in our

power to ensure that they play their rightful role in the development of our country.

Thank you. [Desk thumping]

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I join with fellow Members in extending

greetings to the Spiritual Shouter Baptist community and, indeed, the entirenation

as we commemorate Spiritual Shouter Baptist Liberation Day, 2017 next

Thursday.

The Spiritual Shouter Baptist community has worked and continues to work

tirelessly to help build our nation and contribute to its economic development. In

fact, many of our country’s highly respected sons and daughters practise this faith

and hold valued positions in both the public and private spheres and, in fact, as we

have heard admissions here in this very House.

As a country, we should strive to emulate the will, fortitude and

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Madam Speaker (cont’d)

UNREVISED

perseverance of the Spiritual Shouter Baptist community, for although their history

is cast in persecution and rejection, the Spiritual Shouter Baptists have been able to

overcome that painful past and attain the recognition, respect and freedom of

religious expression which they deserve and which is enshrined in our

Constitution. I therefore take this opportunity to wish the Spiritual Shouter Baptist

community and the entire nation a safe and reflective Spiritual Shouter Baptist

Liberation Day. [Desk thumping]

Question put and agreed to.

House adjourned accordingly.

Adjourned at 5.58 p.m.

Documents

20170324, Unrevised House Debate - Friday March 24, …ttparliament.org/hansards/hh20170324.pdf · 1 Leave of Absence 2017.03.24 UNREVISED HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Friday, March 24,