· 4/17/2006 · TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 151 FACT THAT WE LET IT BE KNOWN WE LET HER THINK THAT WE HAD SOMEBODY ON THE INSIDE THATS VERY TRUE ITS …

TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 151

FACT THAT WE LET IT BE KNOWN WE LET HER THINK THAT

WE HAD SOMEBODY ON THE INSIDE THATS VERY TRUE

ITS TECHNIQUE THAT IVE USED FOR YEARS USED

IT AS AN FBI AGENT OTHER FBI AGENTS USE IT ON

DAILY BASIS THE SAME AS PRETEXT PHONE CALLS

AND WE DID THIS THROUGH ERNIE DAVIS

OKAY BUT IN FACT YOU 1IDNT HAVE ANYBODY ON THE

INSIDE

10NO YES WE DID AS MATTER OF FACT

11ERNIE DAVIS WAS IN THE CRIME SCENE

12ERNIE DAVIS WAS THE ONE WHO GAVE US THE FIRST

13STATEMENT

14SEE BUT IN OTHER WORDS YOURE SAYING THAT YOU

15DIDNT ACTUALLY HAVE SOMEONE WHO COULD TESTIFY THAT

16STOECKLEY WAS PRESENT

17NO WE DIDNT SAY NEVER TOLD HER THAT

18SEE

19LET HER THINK THAT WE KNEW WHAT WENT ON ON THE

20 INSIDE WHICH WAS TRUE AND IT WAS HER OWN HUSBAND

21WHO GAVE US THAT INFORMATION

22 SEE

23BUT WE DIDNT TELL HER IT WAS HER OWN HUSBAND

24 OKAY

25 SO THE STATEMENT IS ACCURATE

Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-6 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 1 of 50


FINE MR GUNDERSON WITH RESPECT TO DEFENDANTS

EXHIBIT FOUR THE LO24HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT

IS THAT IN YOUR REPORT

IT IS NOT

OKAY MR GUNDERSON LET ME HAND YOU DEFENDANTS

EXHIBIT THREE THE TYPEWRITTEN STATEMENT OF

102480 COUNSEL HANDS SAME TO WITNESS WHO

PERUSES SAME

10 LET ME ASK YOU MR GUNDERSON IS DEFENDANTS

II EXHIBIT THE TYPEWRITTEN VERSION OF DEFENDANTS

12 EXHIBIT

13 ID HAVE TO CHECK IT DONT KNOW

14 WELL WHY DONT YOU TAKE LOOK

15 WITNESS PERUSES EXHIBITS IT DOESNT LOOK LIKE

16 IT IS NO THERE IS SOME VARIANCE HERE AT THE FIRST

17 PAGE SO PRESUME THAT THE REST OF IT VARIES TOO

18 WELL WHICH ONE VARIES GUNDERSON

19 WELL ONE TWO THREE FOURTH PARAGRAPH EXCUSE

20 THE FOURTH PARAGRAPH FIRST PAGE BEGINS PRIOR TO

21 THE MURDERS AND ON 21670 OUR CULT HELD RITUAL

22 AT 1108 CLARK STREET FAYETTEVILLE NORTH CAROLINA

23 IT BEGAN AT APPROXIMATELY ELEVENTHIRTY AND LASTED

24 APPROXIMATELY ONEHALF HOURU

25 AND THEN IN THE TYPEWRITTEN VERSION IT SAYS



APPROXIMATELY TWO WEEKS PRIOR TO THIS THE LEADERS

OF THE CULT MET AND DISCUSSED THE POSSIBILITY OF

RETALIATORY ACTS AGAINST PR MACDONALD IN THE

NEXT PARAGRAPH HANDWRITTEN IS BEFORE THE RITUAL

HAD BEEN GIVEN THE ASSIGNMENT WITH IMPLICIT

INSTRUCTION TO DETERMINE THE MOVEMENT AND WHEREABOUTS

OF COLETTE THAT EVENING

SO IT DOES VARY

10WELL MR GUNDERSON GUESS MY QUESTION IS WHY IS

11THERE VARIANCE BETWEEN DEFENDANT EXHIBIT THE

12TYPEWRITTEN 102480 STATEMENT AND DEFENDANTS

13EXHIBIT THE HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT

14AS RECALL WE TOOK THE HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT FIRST

AND IN ORDER TO ALLOW HELENA WE TOOK THAT

16BELIEVE EARLY IN THE MORNING IN ORDER TO ALLOW

17HELENA TO GO HOME AND AFTER READING IT OVER

18 FELT IT WAS SLIGHTLY DISJOINTED AND NEEDED TO BE

REORGANIZED AND WHILE SHE WAS SLEEPING THE NEDAY WE TYPED UP THIS VERSION IN MORE NEAT AND

20

21BETTER PREPARED BETTER ORGANISED STATEMENT

22 BUT BASICALLY THEY CONTAIN THE SAME INFORMATION

HA 23 AS RECALL WITHOUT READING BOTH STATEMENT

24MR GUNDERSON IN OF TERMINOLOGY USED IN

25 THE 1024 TYPEWRITTEN STATEMENT FOR THAT MATTER



THE 1024 HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT WHOSE WORDS ARE

THEY

AS SAID ON THE 102480 STATEMENT SHE WAS THERE

ON THE 10 EXCUSE ME THE HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT

SHE WAS PRESENT ON THE OTHER ONE DICTATED THAT

FROM THIS STATEMENT

INTERPOSING UNHHUNH

AND MADE IT MORE COMPLETE STATEMENT

10 INTERPOSING OKAY

WHICH IS TECHNIQUE THAT IVE USED FOR YEARS IN

12 THE FBI

13 DID YOU DELETE ANY INFORMATION

14 ILL BE GLAD TO TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT ITS

15 FIFTEEN 15 PAGES OF EACH STATEMENT DONT KNOW

16 WITHOUT READING IT

17 WELL MR GUNDERSON IF YOU DID IT WOULD BE

18 APPARENT FROM COMPARISON WOULD IT NOT OF THE

19 TWO STATEMENTS IF THERE ARE ANY DELETIONS

20 DONT KNOW WITHOUT READ BOTH STATEMENTS WOULD

21 YOU LIKE TO HAVE ME TAKE THE TIME TO READ THEM BOTH

22 AND COMPARE THEM

HI 23 NOT UNLESS YOU WANT TO DO IT WITH ALL THE STATEMENTS

24 IN WHICH CASE DONT THINK WERE GOING TO FINISH

25 TODAY



THATS UP TO YOU AND THE JUDGE

OKAY WELL MY QUESTION IS WOULD YOU AGREE OR

DISAGREE THAT IF THERE ARE ANY DELETIONS ASSUMING

FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT THAT IT WOULD BE APPARENT

BY COMPARISON OF THE TWO STATEMENTS

IF THERE ARE DELETIONS OR ADDITIONS

YEAH

WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT IF THERE ARE ANY DELETIONS

10 OR ADDITIONS YOU KNOW IWOULD HAVE CLEARED IT WITH

11 HELENA BECAUSE HELENA INITIALED EACH PAGE AT THE

12 BOTTOM AND SIGNED THE TYPEWRITTEN STATEMENT OR IT

13 WOULD HAVE BEEN INFORMATION SHE GAVE US ORALLY THAT

14 INSERTED WHILE SHE WAS SLEEPING

15 LET ME ASK YOU THIS IS JHERE REFERENCE IN EITHER

16 OF THOSE TWO STATEMENTS TO THE TERM PRETEXT PHONE

17 CALL

18 DONT KNOW ID HAVE TO READ IT SIR

19 WELL WHY DONT YOU TAKE LOOK SIR

20 DO YOU HAVE SPECIFIC PARAGRAPH OR PAGE

21 OKAY LOOK AT THE HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT SIR WHICH

22 IS WHAT DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT THE SECOND PAGE

23 THE FIRST PARAGRAPH AND IF YOUD READ DOWN ABOUT

24 FIVE LINES YOULL SEE IT

25 MADE PRETEXT PHONE CLLR



INTERPOSING OKAY

TO THE MACDONALD RESIDENCE

VE4 RIGHT DIDNT YOU JUST TESTIFY FEW MINUTES

GO THAT PRETEXT PHONE CALL IS AN FBI TECHNIQUE

4GHT

WHOSE YARN PHONE CAFL

JOURS OR HELENA STOECKLEY3

WELL DONT KNOW MEAN SHE WAS CERTAINLY AWARE

10 OF WHAT PRETEXT PHONE CALL MEANT SO WHEN WROTE

11 IT DOWN IM SURE SHE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WAS TALKING

12 ABOUT

13 OKAY IN FACT HELENA STPECKLEY HAD SORT OF AN

14 INTEREST IN POLICE PROCEDURE DIDNT SHE

15 SHE WAS POLICE BUFF

16 POLICE BUFF LET ME ASK YOU MR GUNDERSON IS

17 EITHER DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT NUMBER THREE OR

18 FOUR IN YOUR FOURVOLUME REPORT

19 DONT BELIEVE THEY ARE

20 IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON FOR THAT SIR

21 BCAUSE PUT STATEMENT IN THERE ON THE 25TH

22 WHICH FELT WAS MORE COMPLETE THAN THE OTHER TWO

23 AND RATHER THAN TH BASICALLY ALL THREE STATEMENT

24 CONTAIN THE SAME INFORMAT BUT RATHER THAN BUT

25 THE STATEMENT ON THE 25TH IS BETTER STATEMENT SO



INCLUDED THAT IN THE REPORT

THAT WAS EXCUSE NIE DID YOU FINISH YOUR ANSWER

WELL IT WAS YOU KNOW WASNT TRYING TO CONCEAL

IT FROM ANYBODY HAD IT AND THERE WAS NO PROBLEM

ONIT

WELL MR GUNDERSON DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT TWO THE

STATEMENT THE TYPEWRITTEN STATEMENT OF 1024

AND THEN THE 24 IS CROSSED OUT AND 25 IS WRITTEN

10 AT THE TOP

BECAUSE IT WAS TYPED ON THE 24TH AND SIGNED ON THE

12 25TH

13 IN FACT IT WAS SIGNED EA ON THE MORNING OF THE

14 25TH

15 BELIEVE IT WAS

16 HOW EARLY IN THE MORNING MR GUNDERSON

17 WOULD SAY IM GUESSI YOU KNOW PROBABLY

18 ONE OCLOCK MAYBE ONETHIRTY MAYBE

19 INTERPOSING TWO OCLOCK MAYBE

20 1T MIGHT HAVE BEEN OCLOCK IM NOT UURE

21 OKAY AND HOW LONG HAD HELENA STOECKLEY BEEN

22 INTERROGATED ON THE 24TH

23 RECALL

24 COULD IT HAVE BEEN ALL DAYT

25 WELL DONT THINK SHE WAS THERE EARLY IN THE



MORNING SHE WAS THERE LATE IN THE MORNING

BELIEVE AND ON IN

INTERPOSING WELL LETS SAY ABOUT ELEVEN THIRTY

INTERPOSING LET ME PUT IT LET ME PUT IT THIS

WAY HELENA STOECKLEY UNDERSTOOD FULL WELL THAT IF

SHE WANTED TO GO HOME AND GET NAP SHE WAS AVAIL

ABLE TO GO HOME AND GET NAP

MR GUNDERSON LET ME ASK YOU IF SHE WANTED TO GO

IO HOME TO SOUTH CAROLINA DID SHE HAVE PLANE TICKET

11 AT HER DISPOSAL IN HER POSSESSION

12 TOLD HER SHE COULD GO APY TIME SHE WANTED TO

13 OKAY THATS NOT MY QUES DID SHE HAVE PLANE

14 TICKET IN HER POSSESSION

15 TOLD HER ID PAY HER WAY BACK YES NO SHE DIDNT

16 HAVE ONE IN HER POSSESSION

17 OKAY

18 BUT NEVER KEPT HER THERE WHEN SHE DIDNT WANT TO

19 STAY AND EVERYTHING THAT SHE GAVE US WAS VOLUNTARY

20 AS MATTER OF FACT HAVE IN EXCESS OF TWELVE 1221 STATEMENTS WRITING AND ON TAPE AND IN EVERY ONE OF

22 THEM SHE BEGINS BY SAYING THAT SHES THERE VOLUNTARILY

23 SHE HASNT BEEN PROMISED ANYTHING SHES THERE OF HER

24 OWN FREE WILL

25 WELL IS THAT NOT STANDARD PREAXIIBLE IN FBI



INTERPOSING ITS STANDARD PREAMBLE BUT ITS

ALSO TRUE

WELL THAT MAY BE THE CASE MR GUNDERSON BUT IS IT

NOT FACT THAT THATS ALSO STANDARD PREAMBLE

WELL SHE SIGNED IT SHE SIGNED THE PAGE SHE

INITIALED EACH PAGE AND SIGNED THE BACK OF THE REPORT

SO ASSUMED THAT IT WAS APPROVED BY HER AND IN

FACT HAVE ONE STATEMENT

10 INTERPOSING DID YOU INTRODUCE IT THIS MORNING

YES

12OKAY WHICH ONE WAS THAT7

13HAVE ONE STATEMENT THAT DEALS SPECIFICALLY THE

14 ONEPAGE STATEMENT ON THE 25TH OF MAY 1982 WHERE SHE

15DEALS SPECIFICALLY AND THATS ALL SHE DISCUSSES

16THE FACT THAT NO PROMISES WERE MADE TO HER THAT SHE

17 WAS THERE OF HER OWN FREE WILL AND HER OWN VOLITION

18 AND THAT SHE WAS THERE VOLUNTARILY THE WHOLE

19 STATEMENT DEALS WITH THAT

20 UNHHUNH

21THAT WAS ON OF THE STATEMENTS THAT DIDNT GIVE TO

22 THE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE DIDNT TRUST THE GOVERNMENT

GOVERNMENT23 YOU DIDNT TRUST NE

24THATS RIGHT

25 WELL LET ME ASK JOTI MR UNDERSON IS EVERYTHING



THAT HELENA STOECKLEY TOLD YOU THE TRUTH

I4ONTKNOWIFSHETO1DINSTANCE CANT SAY THAT ALL KNOW IS THAT WBEN

INTERVIEWED HER PUT THE INFORMATION DOWN THAT

SHE GAVE ME ON PAPER DIDNT PUT ANYTHING IN THERE

THAT SHE DIDNT TELL ME

UNHHUNH

AND SHE INITIALED AND SIGNED IT ITS THAT SIMPLE

10 NOW WHETHER SHE TOLD ME LIES OR NOT DONT KNOW

11 OKAY DID YOU

12 INTERPOSING SOME OF THE INFORMATION SHE GAVE ME

13 HAS CHECKED OUT SOME OF THE INFORMATION HAS NOT

14 CHECKED OUT

15 WELL TELL US WHAT HASNT CHECKED OUT MR GUNDERSON

16 WELL WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT THERES POSSIBILITY

17 STRONG POSSIBILITY THAT SHE GAVE US ERRONEOUS

18 INFORMATION WHEN SHE IDENTIFIED THE ARTISTS

19 CONCEPTIONS WHICH MAY ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT WE

20 THOUGHT MAZEROLLE WAS OUT AND IN THE MACDONALD HOUSE

21 AND WHEN IN FACT HE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN IN

22 JAIL WE DONT KNOW

23 WELL BUT DIDNT BEASLEY TELL YOU THAT HE WAS OUT

24 ALSO

25 THATS TRUE BUT IM TALKING ABOUT HELENA STOECKLEY



OKAY

LHBB IDENDFIED THE ARTISTS CONCEPTIONS

T4 FOUR ARTISTS CONCEPTIONA AM DWIGHT SMITH

J1EN MAZEROLLE DON HARRIS AND HERSE1F AND

THEREFORE THERES POSSIBILITY THAT SHE GAVE US THE

WRONG NAMES

UNHHUNH

SO WHEN SHOWED THOSE ARTISTS CONCEPTIONS TO OTHER

10 WITNESSES SHOWED THEM TO THEM BASED ON NUMBER

11NOT ON NAME AND THEN AFTER THEY IDENTIFIED IT

12 THEY MERELY SAID THAT PERSON WAS IN THE CAR OR THAT

13 PERSON WAS THERE AND THEN IN MY REPORT SAID

14 THAT THAT NUMBER CORRESPONDS TO ALLEN MAZEROLLE OR

15 DWIGHT SMITH BASED ON WHAT HELENA STOECKLEY GAVE ME

16 WHILE YOURE MENTIONING THAT MR GUNDERSON DO YOU

17 RECALL INTERVIEWING LADY IN CLEVELAND BY THE NAME

18 OF JAN SNYDER AULT

19 IDO

20 AND DID YOU SHOW HER THE ARTISTS COMPOSITE DRAWINGS

21 SHOWED EVERYBODY TA1K TO THE ARTISTS

22 CONCEPTIONS

23 OKAY AND DID SHE IDENTIFY ANY OF THE ARTISTS

24 COMPOSITE DRAWINGS

25 SHE DID



AND WAS ONE OF THOSE BY ANY CHANCE COMPOSITE

NUMBER FORTYFOUR 441T MA AXTLUTS CONCEPTION THAT HELENA IDENTIFIED

AS ALLEN AZROLLE

SO SHE HAS MAZERO11E OUT ON THE STREET ALSO

WE DONT KNOW IF IT WAS MAZEROLLE HELENA SAID IT

WASMAZ

INTERPOSING WELL DIDNT SHE SAY IT WAS

10 INTERPOSING NO NO THE ARTISTS CONCEPTION WAS

11 IDENTIFIED BY HELENA STOECKLEY AS ALLEN MAZEROLLE

12 UNHHUNH

13 DIDNT SAY IT WAS ALLEN MAZEROLLE IVE NEVER TOLD

14 THE WITNESSES IT WAS ALLEN MAZEROLLE IVE TOLD

IS THEM THIS IS THE NUMBER SOANDSO FORTYFOUR 4416 DID YOU SEE THIS PERSON IVE NEVER GIVEN TO ANY OF

17 THE PEOPLE IVE INTERVIEWED LEADING QUESTIONS

18 OKAY

19 THAT INCLUDES JAN AULT

20 BUT WERE STILL TALKING ABOUT ALLEN MAZEROLLE RIGHT

21 TALKING ABOUT 4TEM JIUMBER FORTYFOUR 44 THAT

22 SHOWED HER IM NOT SAYING THAT ITS ALLEN

23 14AZEROLLE

24 OH OKAY

25 IM SAYING THAT THAT WAS THAT HELENA STOECKLEY



IDENTIFIED FORTYFOUR 44 AS ALLEN MAZEROLLE

TINHHUNH

ASSUMED THAT THAT WAEAO BECAUSE LOT

THE OTHER INFORMATION SHE GAVE US WAS ACCURATE

MR GUNDERSORI DID JIELENA STOECKLEY NOT ALSO

YOI THAT IN HER VARIOUS STATEMENTS ABOUT AN

EPISODE SUPPOSEDLY IN THE CRIME SCENE IN WHICH

DR MACDONALD IS AWAKENED BY THE SUPPOSED INTRUDERS

10 AND ASKED TO PROVIDE DRUGS

11 BELIEVE SHE TOLD US THAT

12 OKAY

13 ID HAVE TO CHECK THAT PO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT IS

14 AND BEFORE ID SAY ITS ACCURATE ID LIKE TO SEE IT

15 ITS IN LOOK IN THE 102580 STATEMENT MR

16 GUNDERSON THINK THATS NUMBER TWO

17 102580 STATEMENT

18 UNHHUNH YESIF YOULL HANG ON SECOND ILL GIVE

19 YOU THE PAGE OKAY LOOK AT PAGE ITS FIFTY 5020 FROM YOUR REPORT ITS ABOUT THE ONE

21 INTERPOSING WHICH REPORT

22 TWO THREE ITS THE FOURTH PAGE OF THE STATEMENT

23 OF THE 1025 STATEMENT

24 YEAH THE LAST FULL PARAGRAPH

25 YEAH RIGHT OKAY


TED CUNDERSON CROSS VOL 164

ABOUT THIS TIME HARRIS MAZEROLLE AND SMITH

INTERPOSING RIGHT

TRIED TO TALK TO DR MACDONALD AND HE BECAME

BELLIGERENT AND HOSTILE

RIGHT

DI4 YOU READ MACDONAL VARIOUS STATEMENTS AND

TESTIMONY

YES UNHHUNH

10 OKAY AND LET ME ASK YOUJ WAS THERE ANYTHING IN ANY

11 OF HIS STATEMENTS WHICH CORROBORATES THIS STATEMENT

12 DONT RECALL THAT THERE IS

13 OKAY WELL WOULD YOU DI WITH ME IF WERE TO

14 SAY THAT THERE WAS NOT

15 NO DONT

16 INTERPOSING THAT MACDONALD NEVER RECOUNTED THIS

17 INTERPOSING DONT RECALL THAT

18 IN ANY OF HIS VERSIONS

19 HE EVER SAID THAT RIGHT DONT

20 MR ONEILL INTERPOSING OBJECTION YOUR

21 HONOR CALLING FOR SPECULATION

22 MR MURTAGH OKAY

23 ID LIKE TO ID LIKE TO POINT ONE THING OUT TO

24 YOU AGAIN THIS IS HELENA STOECKLEYS STATEMENT

25 THIS ISNT MY STATEMENT THIS ISNT WHAT SAW



MACDONALD TESTIFY TO OR WHAT READ MACDONALD SAID

RIGHT

SO MEAN WE SHOULD MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR GOOD

INVESTIGATOR DOES NOT PUT WORDS ON ONES MOUTH

OKAY IT UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY MR

GUNDERSON YOURE NOT VOUCHING FOR THE TRUTH OF

WHATS IN THESE STATEMENTS

ALL IM TELLING YOU IS THIS IS WHAT HELENA TOLD ME

10 AND IM NOT GOING TO SAY TO HELENA NOW HELENA

11 DR MACDONALD SAID THIS DONT YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR

12 STORY THATS POOR INVESTIGATIVE WORK SIR AND THAT

13 GOES FOR ALL OF MY STATEMENTS ALL DO IS PUT DOWN

14 WHAT THEY TELL ME

15 OKAY WELL LET ME ASK YPU MR GUNDERSON DID YOU

16 EVER FIND ANY CORROBORATIVE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT

17 SHOWED THAT CORROBORATED HER ON THIS

18 ABSOLUTELY

19 ON THIS

20 NO NOT ON THAT ON OTHER POINTS

21 INTERPOSING OKAY

22 WHICW BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO DISCUSS WITH YOU

23 OKAY YEAH ELL ME ABOUT THE OTHER CORROBORATIVE

24 POINTS

25 THE PHONE CALL FROM JIMMY FRIAR DURING THE



INTERVIEW WITH HELENA ASKED HELENA HELENA WHEN

YOUVR 4N THERE THAT NIGHT DID ANYTHING UNUSUAL

HAPPEN NOW THIS IS ON TAPE SIR SO WHEN YOU GET

HE TAPE RECORDINGS OUT AND PLAY THEM BACK YOU 11

RICK THIS UP

SHE SAID NO NOTHING HAPPENED SAID

HELENA THINK HARD DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN THAT

NIGHT WHILE YOU WERE IN THERE IN THE HOUSE AND

10 THINK SHE SAID SECOND TIME NO AND THEN ALL OF

11 SUDDEN SHE SAYS OH YES IT DID SAID WHAT

12 HAPPENED SHE SAID THE PHONE RANG SAID AGAIN

13 THIS IS ON TAPE SO IM NOT MAKING THIS UP YOU CAN

14 REVIEW THIS WHEN YOU GET CHANCE TO LOOK AT THE

15 TAPES THE PHONE RANG AND SAID WHAT DID YOU

16 DO SHE SAID ANSWERED THE PHONE SAID TELL ME

17 ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT

18 SHE SAID MALE ASKED FOR DR MACDONALD AND

19 MALE VOICE ASKED FOR DR MACDONALD AND SAID

20 WHAT DID YOU DO SHE SAID LAUGHED AND SAID

21 THEN WHAT HAPPENED SHE SAID SOMEBODY TOLD ME TO

22 HANG UP THE GOD DAMN PHONE THINK THOSE WERE THE

23 EXACT WORDS

24 AND SAID WHAT DID YOU DO SHE SAID HUNG

25 UP THE PHONE



DID NOT SIR PUT THOSE WORDS IN HER MOUTH

BUT AN AFFIDAVIT HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN FILED BY JIMMY

FRIAR WITH ALMOST THAT SAME IDENTICAL CONVERSATION

ON JIMMY FRIARS PART WHICH MATCHED ALMOST TO THE

WORD EXACTLY WHAT HELENA SAID

KAY GUNDERSON LETME NTERRUPT YOU TAR

SECOND THE BUSINESS ABOUT JIMMY FRIAR WASNT THE

RESULT OF YOUR INVESTIGATION WAS IT

10 NO IT WAS NOT

11 DIDNT IT COME OUT DURING THE TRIAL AS MATTER OF

12 FACT

13 IT CAINE OUT PRIOR TO WHEN ENTERED THE CASE

14 REMEMBER REVIEWING IT THOUGH

15 YEAH WELL ISNT IT FACT THAT IT WAS KNOWN TO THE

16 DEFENSE AT THE TRIAL

17 DONT KNOW WHEN IT WAS KNOWN TO THE DEFENSE

18 KNOW THERE WAS DECLARATION ON IT SOMEPLACE IN THE

19 COURT RECORDS BELIEVE

20 BK ANYTHING ELSE THAT CORROBORATES MS STOECKLEY

21 TH NODD NORSE

22 OKAY ARE YOU AWARE THAT

23 INTERPOSING WOULD YOU IKE TO HAVE ME GO OVER THE

24 HOBBY HORSE WITH YOU

25 WELL IF YOURE GOING TO TELL ME THAT THERE WASNT



PICTURE OF IT INTRODUCED AT THE TRIAL AND THAT

APPEARED

INTERPOSING IM NOT GOING TO TELL YOU THAT

OKAY FINE MOVE ON TO OMETHING ELSE THNO NO IM GOING TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT BUT NOT

GOING TO TELL YOU THAT

OKAY

THE WE HAD HELENA THERE IN LOS ANGELES ASKED

10 HELENA SAID HELENA HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE

11 PICTURE THAT APPEARED IN THE FAYETTEVILLE NEWSPAPER

12 OF THE CHILDS ROOM THAT INCLUDED THE HOBBY HORSE

13 SHE SAID NO IVE NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE AND AS

14 YOU RECALL THAT PICTURE DID APPEAR FEW DAYS AFTER

15 THE TRIAL WHEN PUT

16 INTERPOSING AFTER THE TRIAL SIR OR AFTER THE

17 INTERPOSING MEAN AFTER THE INCIDENT

18 CRIME

19 AFTER THE CRIME EXCUSE ME WHEN PUT HELENA ON

20 POLYGRAPH EXAMINATION WHICH SHE TOOK HAD THE

21 POLYGRAPH EXAMINER ASK HER THAT SPECIFIC QUESTION

22 IF SHE HAD EVER SEEN THAT PHOTOGRAPH AND SHE

IS

23 ANSWERED THAT SHE HAD NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE AND SHE

24 PASSED THAT ACCORDING TO THE POLYGRAPH OPERATOR

25 UNHHUNH DID YOU REVIEW ALL THE POLYGRAPH RESULTS


TED GUNDERSORI CROSS VOL 169

IN THIS CASE

YES MR BRISENTINE GAVE HER POLYGRAPH EXAMINATION

IN NASHVILLE TENNESSEE AND GAVE HER TWO

EXAMINATIONS

DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO REVIEW DR 4ACDONALZ

POLYGRAPH EXAMINATION

NO IVE NEVER EXAMINED THAT TRIED TO QET NY HANDS

ONIT

10DID THEY MAKE THAT AVAILABLE TO YOU

TRIED TO GET IT TRIED TO CALL MR BAXTER IN11

SAN DIEGO TO GET IT FOR MR ONEILL AT HIS REQUEST12

MR BAXTER VERY CON HAS LOST IT HE DOESNT KNOW13

WHERE IT IS MR BAXTER LOOKED FOR IT FOR SEVERAL14

WEEKS AND COULDNT FIND IT ASKED FOR THE CHARTS15

SO WE COULD GIVE IT TO POLYGRAPH EXPERT16

ANOTHER AREA THAT THINK YOU SHOULD BE AWARE17

18OF AS FAR AS THE INFORMATION THAT HELENA GAVE US WAS

19THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG IN THE BACKYARD THERE WAS

20GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG THAT BELONGED TO JANICE

PENDLYSHOC HELENA TOLD US THAT WHEN THEY WENT INTO21

22THE HOUSE AND CAME OUT OF THE HOUSE THAT DOG WAS

23THERE THE DID NOT WHEN THEY WENT IN BUT

WHEN THEY CAME OUT HE BARKED IT WAS AN EIGHTEEN24

25MONTH OLD DOG ASKED HER TO DESCRIBE THE DOG SHE



DESCRIBED THE DOG BASICALLY WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE

AND IT FIT THE IT MATCHED THE GERMAN SHEPHERD

WE1L MR GUNDERSON LET ASK YOU AS RESULT OF

YOUR INVESTIGATION DID YOU DETERMINE WHETHER THERE

VAS ANY OTHER WAY THAT HELENA STOECKLEY COULD HAVE

KNOWN THAT JANICE PENDLYSHOC HAD GERMAN SHEPHERD

ALL KNOW IS THAT HELENA STOECKLEY TOLD US THAT SHE

SAW THE DOG THAT NIGHT

10 OKAY WELL

11 INTERPOSING AND OF COURSE IF SHED BEEN IN THE

12 YARD BEFORE SHE COULD HAVE SEEN IT BEFORE NATURALLY

13

14 GOVERNMENTS EXHIBIT 16

15 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION

16

17 MR MURTAGH WELL MR GUNDERSON LET ME SHOW YOU

18 WHATS BEEN MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AS GOVERNMENTS

19 SIXTEEN 16 CLIPPING FROM THE FAYETTEVILLE

20 OBSERVER EIGHTEEN TWO SEVENTY AND ASK YOU IF YOU

21 RECOGNIZE THAT COUNSEK HANDS SAME TO WITNESS WHO

22 PERUSES SAME

23 IVE NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE

24 OKAY WOULD YOU READ THE CAPTION

25 READING DOCUMENT SLAYING SCENE NEIGHBORS



DOG IS STILL TIED TO THE CLOTHESLINE POST OUTSIDE THE

HOME OF FORT BRAGG CAPTAIN JEFFREY MACDONALD AS AN

MP STANDS GUARD AND ANOTHER SOLDIER LOOKS AROUND ON

THE SIDEWALK THE MACDONALD HOME WAS THE SCENE OF THE

MURDER OF HIS TWENTYSIX YEAR OLD WIFE AND TWO SMALL

CHILDREN IN THE PREDAWN HOURS TUESDAYU THIS IS

DATED FAYETTEVILLE OBSERVER EIGHTEEN TWO

SEVENTY SO THAT WOULD BE FEBRUARY THE 18TH IT

10WOULD HAVE BEEN THE NEXT DAY

11SO IF SHE HAD SEEN THE PAPER SHE WOULD HAVE KNOWN

12THERE WAS GERMAN

13INTERPOSING SHE DIDNT SHE SAID SHE CLAIMS

14SHE SHE DIDNT SAY ONE WAY OR THE OTHER WHETHER

15SHE HAD EVER SEEN THAT ARTICLE

16WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE ME MAKE THE NEXT POINT

17 SIR THE JEWELRY BOX

18 THE JEWELRY BOX YES TE US ABOUT THE JEWELRY BOX

19MR GUNDERSON

20 ASKED HELENA TO GIVE US TELL US THE LOCATION OF

21FURNITURE IN THE HOUSE AND SHE IDENTIFIED THE

22 JEWELRY BOX ON THE LOWER DRESSER IN THE MASTER

23BEDROOM SHE SAID EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS LOCATED IT

24WAS PUSHED TOWARD THE BACK OF THE DRESSER APPROXI

25 MATELY FOOT AND HALF TO THE LEFT EDGE AND



WENT TO SEARS ROEBUCK AND OBTAINED SOME PICTURES

AND SHOWED HER NUMBER OF PICTURES OF JEWELRY BOXES

AND SHE PICKED ONE OUT IN PARTICULAR THAT MATCHED

THAT MATCHED THAT OF THE MACDONALDS THAT MOST

CLOSELY MATCHED IT

4IOW THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH THAT IS HELENA

TOLD US THAT SHED BEEN IN THE HOUSE IN ANOTHER

SIGNED STATEMENT THREE WEEKS PRIOR TO THAT SO

10 CONCEIVABLY SHE COULD HAVE

11 INTERPOSING SHE HAD BEEN IN THE HOUSE BEFORE THE

12 MURDERS

13 THATS RIGHT THAT WAS IN THE SIGNED STATEMENT SIR

14 OH YES

15 THREE WEEKS PRIOR SO CONCEIVABLY SHE COULD HAVE

16 SEEN IT THERE THAT NIGHT

17 COULD SHE NOT HAVE ALSO SEEN IT IN THE CRIME SCENE

18 PHOTOGRAPHS THAT SHE WAS SHOWN ON THE WITNESS STAND

19 SHE TESTIFIED

20 HAVE XEROX COPIES OF THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH

21 SHOWED TO HELENA AND DPNT KNOW HOW THE ORIGINAL

22 IS BUT THE XEROX COPY IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT

23 INTERPOSING WELL WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE

24 XEROX COPY WERE

25 INTERPOSING WELL ITS POSSIBLE



TALKING ABOUT THE PHOTOGRAPH

SO IT IS POSSIBLE

YEAH IT IS POSSIBLE CERTAINLY

SO SHE MIGHT HAVE SEEN THE JEWELRY BOX

RIGHT

OKAYA40 THT 1ELENA GAY US THAT MATCHES

INFORMATION THAT MR BEASLEY AND DEVELOPED WAS THE

10LOCATION OF THE AUTOMOBILES AFTER THE MURDERS

11HELENA TOLD US AND POINTED OUT IN FACT EXACTLY

12WHERE THEY PARKED THE CARS WHICH WAS IN LITTLE

13COVE ON CASTLE DRIVE LOCATED ADJACENT TO 310 OR 308

14CASTLE DRIVE SHE SAID THAT THE BLUE MUSTANG WAS

15THERE WHICH BELONGED TO ALLEGEDLY BELONGED TO

16BRUCE FOWLER AND WHEN THEY RAN OUT OF THE HOUSE

17THEY RAN UP AND JUMPED IN THE CAR AND THE CAR MADE

18TURN

19TALKED TO JAN SNYDER IN DECEMBER OF 1980

20JAN SNYDER LOOKED OUT THE VINDOV SAW NOT ONLY THE

21BLUE MUSTANG BUT LIGHTCOLORED OR CREAM CAR

22COLORED CAR AND SHE THOUGHT AN MPG BUT AT LEAST

ASKED HER WHICH DIRECTION THE CARS LEFT23

24SHE SAID THAT THE ONE CAR THE BLUE MUSTANG MADE

25 TURN AND HEADED BACK TOWARD THE MACDONALD HOUSE



HELENA

INTERPOSING MR GUNDERSON LET ME INTERRUPT YOU

FOR SECOND

INTERPOSING OKAY

RESPECT TO JAN SNYDEX 44 YOU ZEV4EAR 32 TESTLU

DID YOU FIND ANY INCONSISTENCIES BETWEEN WHAT SHE

10 TOLD YOU

11 INTERPOSING DID

12 AND WHAT SHE TESTIFIED TO

13 DID

14 WOULD YOU TELL US ABOUT THOSE

IS DONT KNOW THE DETAILS RIGHT NOW BUT RECALL THERE

16 WERE SOME INCONSISTENCIES

17 WELL DIDNT SHE SAY IN SUBSTANCE THAT SHE DIDNT

18 SEE ANYTHING WHEN SHE LOOKED OUT HER WINDOW THAT

19 NIGHT

20 IM NOT SURE SHE GAVE DIFFERENT STORY SO

21 THINK THATS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE CHECKED INTO BY

22 THE GOVERNMENT

23 OKAY AND SHES THE ONE THAT IDENTIFIED THE COMPOSITE

24 DRAWING OF MAZEROLLE NUMBEZ FORTYFOUR 4425 SHE IDENTIFIED THE COMPOSITE DRAWING OF NUMBER



FORTYFOUR WHETHER ITS MAZEROLLE OR NOT IM NOT

SU YEAH RIGHT

WELL IF IT ISNT MAZEROLLE WHAT DOES THAT DO TO

STOECKLEYS STATEMENT ISNT STOECKLEY SAYING THATS

MAZERO1LE

JFEL1 NOT SAYING THAT HELENA TOLD US THE TRUTH

ALL THE TIME BUT IM TELLING YOU NOW THAT SHE DID

GIVE US SOME INFORMATION THAT WAS CORROBORATED

10 INDEPENDENTLY

11 OKAY SO THATS THE JEWELRY BOX THE GERMAN

12 SHEPHERD

13 INTERPOSING THE HOBBY IORSE

14 THE HOBBY HORSE AND THE BLUE MUSTANG

15AND BRUCE FOWLERS PHONE CA1L AND ALSO MIGHT

16 ALSO MENTION THAT AS FAR AS HELENA TOLD US SHE WAS

17 WITH DWIGHT SMITH THAT NI9HT AND THAT HE WORE AN

18 ARMY FATIGUE JACKET WITH E6 SERGEANT STRIPES THERE

19 ARE TWO OTHER PEOPLE WHO SAW THEM THAT NIGHT WITH

20 THE ARMY FATIGUE JACKET WHO SAW HELENA IN THE

21 PRESENCE OF BLACK MALE WITH THE ARMY FATIGUE JA22 AND THE E4 SERGEANT STRIPES THAT WAS PRINCE BEASLEY

23 AND ONE OF PRINCE BEASLEYS INFORMANTS WHICH

24 CERTAINLY CONFIRMS THE FACT THAT SHE WAS VTTH BLACK

25 MALE WITH SERGEANT STRIPES



MR GUNDERSON LET ME ASK YOU IN YOUR REPORT DID

YOU COME ACROSS ANY OTHER INFORMATION WITH RESPECT

EITHER SAY BRUCE FOWLER OR DON HARRIS THAT

INDICATED THAT HELENA WASNT TELLING YOU THE ACCURATE

STORY

CANT THINK OF ANYTHING RIGHT OFFHAND

INTERPOSING WELL

THERE COULD BE SOME OTHER ITEMS IN THERE

10 LET ME

II INTERPOSING IF YOUD LIKE TO IF YOU HAVE

12 SOMETHING SPECIFICALLY

13 INTERPOSING YEAH DO

14 YOUD LIKE TO POINT OUT LETS REVIEW IT

15 YEAH

16 HAVE ONE OTHER POINT ID LIKE TO MAKE

17 WELL LET ME LET ME MAKE THE POINT FIRST

18 INTERPOSING ALL RIGHT SIR

19 AND THEN YOU CAN MAKE YOURS

20 WITH RESPECT TO YOUR REPORT VOLUME ONE

21 THE COPY HERE IS RATHER ILLEGIBLE BUT ON PAGE

22 SEVENTYEIGHT 78 WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THIS IS AN

23 INTERVIEW CID INTERVIEW OF CATHY SMITH WITH THE

24 STAMP BERNARD SEGAL

25 INTERPOSING IT IS



ON IT

ITIS

AND THAT WHAT IM HANDING YOU IS AN ACCURATE COPY OF

IT BUT MORE LEGIBLE

RIGHT

OKAY WOULD YOU READ THE HIGHLIGHTED PART

READING DOCUMENT NIGHT OF THE MURDERS OF

THE MACDONALD FAMILY WAS OUT WITH ONE WITH BRUCE

10 FOWLER AND GUY NAMED CHARLEY BROWN JOHNNY LAAFE

11AND CONKLIN WE WERE AT BRUCES TRAILER ON

12 HIGHWAY 59 IN FAYETTEVILLE AT THAT TIME BRUCE WAS

13 SHARING THE TRAILER WITH BROWN AND CANT READ

14 THAT WE STAYED AT THE TRAILER UNTIL APPROXIMATELY

15 ZERO THREE THREE ZERO 0330 WHEN BRUCE AND

16 RETURNED TO THE APARTMENT ON CLARK STREET WHEN WE

17 GOT BACK DIANE HEDDEN AND DON HARRIS WERE THERE

18 PAINTING THE APARTMENT

19 ABOUT HALF HOUR LATER HELENA AND GREG

20 MITCHELL ARRIVED2 THEY HAD BEEN OUT IN EITHER GREGS

21 YELLOW PLYMOUTH OR HARRIS LIGHT BLUE 69 FAIRLANE

22 GT THEY WERE NOT IN BRUCES BLUE MUSTANG BECAUSE

23 YE HAD IT AT THE TRAILER REMEMBER WE DIDNT

24 GO ANYWHERE AFTER THAT HELENA WENT TO SLEEP IN THE

25 GARAGE APARTMENT BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ROOM IN THE BED



FOR HER WITH IAS

OJ AND THATS IN YOUR REPORT OR COPY

INTERPOSING THATS RIGJIT

OF IT IS WAY YOW WITH RESPECT TO DIANE

LEDDEN LET ME SHOW YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT PAGE EIGHTY

TWO 82 OF YOUR REPORT AND IS IT BASICALLY THE

SAME

INTERPOSING THATS WANT TO EMPHASIZE THATS

10 AN ARMY INVESTIGATION AN ARMY INTERVIEW

11 RIGHT AND WHATS THE DATE OF THAT INTERVIEW

12 THATS AN ARMY INTERVIEW PN MAY THE 5TH 1971

13 1971 SO THAT WAS BEFORE STOECKLEY EVER NAMED

14 DWIGHT SMITH

15 INTERPOSING RIGHT

16 OR ALLEN MAZEROLLE

17 INTERPOSING RIGHT

18 OR ANYBODY ELSE RIGHT

19 UNHHUNH RIGHT

20 OKAY NOW WITH RESPECT JO THE SECOND ONE PAGE

21 EIGHTYTWO 82 WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THIS THAT

22 IVE IDENTIFIED AS TJ3 IS THE CID COPY OF THE

43

23 INTERVIEW OF DIANE HEDDEN BUT MORE LEGIBLE COUNSEL

24 HANDS SAME TO WITNESS WHO PERUSES SAME

25 ALL RIGHT ARMY AGAIN



INTERPOSING AND THATS IN YOUR REPORT

GAIN AN ARMY INTERVIEW PN MAY THE 1971

ML RIGHT

AND IT SAYS YOU REMEPIBER THE EXACT DATE OF THESE

MURDERS IT MUST HAVE BEEN EARLY 19 THIS IS THE

ANSWER IT MUST HAVE BEEN EARLY 1970 BECAUSE

REMEMBER WAS PAINTING THE APARTMENT BATHROOM THAT

NIGHT DO YOU WANT ME TO CONTINUE WITH THE NEXT

10 PAGE

11 PLEASE

12 HELPED MOP THE FLOORS AND CLEAN UP THE SHOP AND

13 LEFT ABOUT ONE AM WITH DON HARRIS ANOTHER SOLDIER

14 WHO WAS OFTEN AWOL HARRIS AND WENT TO MY

15 APARTMENT ON CLARK STREET THEN WE ARRIVED AT THE

16 APARTMENT NO ONE WAS THERE FOUND NOTE FROM

17 CATHY SAYING SHE HAD GONE TO BRUCES TRAILER WITH

18 BRUCE CHARLEY BROWN AND JOHNNY LAAPE LAAPE IS

19 LAAPE BUT THINK HIS NAME IS LAAFE HARRIS

20 AND STAYED AT THE APARTMENT ALL NIGHT HE ACTUALLY

21 ASLEEP ON THE BED WHILE WAS PAINTING THE

22 APARTMENT WALL BETWEEN FOUR AND FIVE AM SAW

AD 23 JOHN FORREST COME HOME ALONE HE WAS DRESSED IN

24 COOKS WHITES AND LOOKED LIKE HE HAD JUST COME FROM

25 WORK ON THE POST SAID HELLO TO HIM ITM NOT SURE



BUT THINK HARRIS WOKE UP ABOUT THE TIME THAT HE

LEFT DONT KNOW WHERE HE WENT BUT THINK HE HAD

CAR THEN SAW BYRD LEAVING THE APARTMENT

UPSTAIRS AND SO ON YOU QUIT YOU QUIT MARKING

IT THERE JM THEN LATER ON IT SAYS CATHY CAME

HOME WITH BRUCE

OKAY SO MR GUNDERSON WOULD YOU AGREE THAT

APPROXIMATELY NINE YEARS BEFORE HELENA STOECKLEY

10 EVER MADE THE STATEMENTS TO YOU OTHER WITNESSES

11 DIANE HEDDEN AND CATHY SMITH HAD IN EFFECT SAID

12 THAT DON HARRIS WAS WITH DIANE HEDDEN THE NIGHT OF THE

13 MURDERS AND THAT CATHY SMITH WAS WITH BRUCE FOWLER IN

14 HIS

AGREE THAT THEY SAID THAT BUT DONT NECESSARILY

16 AGREE THAT ITS TRUE

17 WELL DID YOU DO ANYTHING TO CHECK IT OUT

18 SIR WAS VERY LIMITED ON MY FINANCES THERES

19 LOT OF WORK THAT REMAINED TO BE DONE WHEN HAD DONE

20 THIS NO DID NOT COULDNT TRAVEL CATHY

21 SMITH WAS IN NEW JERSEY THE LAST HEARD AND DID

22 NOT DIDNT HAVE THE FUNDS TO TRAVEL ALL OVER THE

23 UNITED STATES

24 OKAY

25 DID THE BEST COULD WITH THE MONEY HAD



WELL MR GUNDERSON THIS IS IN VOLUME ONE OF

YOUR REPORT

RIGHT

AND THAT REPORT IS AATED APRIL 11TH 1980

RIGHT

OKAY AND THERE ARE OTHER VOLUMES

INTERPOSING RIGHT

IS THAT CORRECT

10 UNHHUNH YES11 BUT YOU NEVER THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO CHECK THOSE

12 OUT

13 WOULDNT SAY IT WASNT IMPORTANT NEVER SAID

14 THAT

15 OKAY

16 DID YOU SEE THE END OF VOLUME FOUR IV WHERE GAVE

17 AI HAVE LIST OF ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE PAGES OF

18 LEADS THAT SHOULD BE HANDLED AND INCLUDED IN THE

19 LEADS WERE THAT THE SUSPECTS SHOULD ALL BE CHECKED

20 OUT THATS IN THE LEADS IF YOULL PULL THAT LEAD

21 SHEET OUT ILL READ IT TO YOU

22 FINE MR GUNDERSON DO YOU HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT

23 INFORMATION THAT DISPROVE THE SWORN STATEMENT OF

24 CATHY SMITH OR DIANE HEDDEN

25 NO EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT KNOW THROUGH HELENA



STOECKLEY ABOUT THE REPUTATION OF HER ASSOCIATES

AND ID SAY THEYRE HIGHLY SUSPECTAND FURTHERMORE

IVE SEEN SOME OF THE ARMY INVESTIGATION AND IT IS

POOR AND GIVING THEM BREAK ID SAY ITS USUALLY

POOR INVESTIGATION AND PARTICULARLY IN THIS

INSTANCE AND PARTICULARLY IN THIS CASE

WELL LET ME ASK YOU MRDID THE ARMY

CHECK OUT WHERE MR MAZEROLLE WAS ON THE NIGHT OF

10 THE MURDERS

DONT KNOW IF THEY DID PR NOT

12 HAVE YOU SEEN THE AFFIDAVIT OF MR MAHON MAHON13 DONT RECALL THAT SAW IT

14 WELL WOULD YOU DISAGREE WITH ME IF TOLD YOU THAT

15 THEY DID CHECK IT OUT

16 AND

17 MR ONEILL OBJECTION YOUR HONOR HES

18 ASKING THE WITNESS TO SPECULATE AS TO SOMETHING

19 REGARDING WHICH THE WITNESS HAS SAID HE HAS NO

20 KNOWLEDGE

21 MR MURTAGH ILL WITHDRAW THE QUESTION YOUR

22 HONOR

23 THE COURT VERY WELL

24 MR MURTAGH MR GUNDER25 INTERPOSING SIR MAY ASK YOU QUESTION



NO YOU MAY NOT ASK

INTERPOSING OKAY

THE QUESTIONS MR GUNDERBON AND

INTERPOSING ALL RIGHT

YOU RESPOND TO THEM

MR GUNDERSON WITH RESPECT TO THE MAY 24TH

STATEMENT ALL RIGHT AND THATS DEFENSE EXHIBIT

IN FACT THERE WERE SEVERAL MAY 24TH STATEMENTS WERE

10 THERE NOT

THEYRE

12 INTERPOSING IM REFERRING TO THE THIRTYNINE 39

13 PAGE TYPEWRITTEN STATEMENT WHICH IS

14 INTERPOSING THERE ARE THREE MAY 24TH

15STATEMENTS

16 OKAY AND IS THERE NOT CASSETTE THAT GOES WITH

17 THEM

18 THERE IS

19 OKAY WITH RESPECT TO THE MAY 24TH STATEMENT TOWARDS

20 THE END OF THAT DOES HELENA STOECKLEY TELL YOU THAT

21 PRIOR TO THE MURDERSG SOME TWO WEEKS OR SO BEFORE

22 THEY SENT MEMBER OF THE CULT TO TALK TO DR

LA 23 MACDONALD TO COUNSEL HIM ABOUT HIS INSENSITIVE

24 ATTITUDE TOWARDS HANDLING DRUG ABUSERS

25 WOULD YOU DIG THAT SECTION OUT AND LET ME LOOK AT IT



SURE

SO CAN BE ACCURATE

WELL LET ME ROOT AROUND FOR IT LATER MR GUNDERSON

LET ME ASK YOU HELENA STOECKLEY ALSO TELL YOU

ON THE 24TH OF MAY THAT ONE OF THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE

MURDER WAS AN UNDERCOVER CID GENT

SHE MADE STATEMENT ALONG THOSE LINES DONT

REMEMBER DONT THINK SHE SAID NO DONT

10 THINK SHE SAID HE WAS SHE SAID THERE WERE TWO OR

11 THREE MEMBERS OF THE CULT THAT WERE SUSPECTED OF BEING

12 UNDERCOVER CID AGENTS YES BUT SHE DIDNT IDEN

13 SHE DIDNT IDEN SHE NAMED

14 INTERPOSING SHE DIDNT IDENTIFY THE PERSON BY NAME

15 BUT SHE SAID THERE WAS

16 INTERPOSING THERE WERE SEVERAL THERE WERE TWO

17 OR THREE WHO WERE SUSPECTED OF BEING UNDERCOVER CID

18 AGENTS IN HER CULT THATS RIGHT SHE DID SAY THAT

19 THATS FROM MEMORY

20 OKAY

21 BUT IM IM ACCURATE ON THAT

22 OKAY AND YOU DONT RECALL ABOUT THE COUNSELING

23 SESSION TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE

24 INTERPOSING NO RECALL SOMETHING ABOUT IT BUT

25 IM NOT SURE ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT WAS SAID



WELL WITH RESPECT TO HER STATEMENT THAT THIS

OCCURRED DO YOU RECALL THAT

NO WOULDNT SAY ANYTHING UNLESS COULD SEE IT

BECAUSE THERES SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES BUT IT

ISNT THINK THINK IF MY MEMORY IS RIGHT

BUT DONT WANT TO HAVE TO STICK TO THIS WITHOUT

REVIEWING IT

INTERPOSING UNHHUNH

10 THAT SHE SAID THAT THEY SENT REPRESENTATIVE IN

II TO TALK TO HIM BUT DR MACDONALD DID NOT KNOW WHO HE

12 WAS BUT

13 INTERPOSING BUT HE WAS PRESENT DR MACDONALD

14 BEG YOUR PARDON

15 MACDONALD WAS THERE

16 WELL DONT THINK WE SHOULD GO ON THE RECORD WITH

17 THIS UNTIL WE GET THE EXACT STATEMENT

18 UNHHUNH WELL WHILE IM LOOKING FOR THIS MR

19 GUNDERSON LET ME ASK YOU DID YOU EMPLOY PSYCHICS

20 AT ALL IN THIS

21 INTERPOSING NO DID NOT

22 INVESTIGATION HAVE YOU EVER EMPLOYED PSYCHICS

23 INTERPOSING NEVER

24 IN INVESTIGATIONS OKAY

25 HAVE YOU EVER TOLD ANYBODY SPECIFICALLY SPECIAL



AGENT ROBINSON OF THE DALLAS OFFICE OF THE FBI

WHETHER YOU BELIEVED IN PSYCHICS

DONT EMEMBER IF TOLD 1DM BELIEVED IN THEM OR

VER MP3YED PWYVHT

EXPERIMENTED WITH PAYCHIC

MR GUNDERSON DO YOU KNOW OF ANY REANON WHY

MR BEASLEY WOULD SAY THAT ONE OF HIS ASSIGNMENTS WAS

TO PICK UP COUPLE OF FEMALE PSYCHICS AT THE

10 AIRPORT IN COLUMBIA SOUTH CAROLINA AND POINT OUT

11 HELENA STOECKLEY TO THEM

12 WELL IF YOURE REFERRING TO GERALDINE SMITH AND

13 CATHY TAYLOR CAN TELL YOU THE STORY ON THAT IS

14 THAT

15 INTERPOSING PLEASE DO

16 WHAT YOURE REFERRING TO

17 YES

18 FIRST OF ALL THEY WERE NOT TWO PSYCHICS GERALDINE

19 SMITH CLAIMS TO BE PSYCHIC AND CATHY SMITH IS MR20 ADMINISTRATIV ASSISTANT

21 SEE

22 THEY CAME TO ME WANTED TO WORK THE MACDONALD CASE

23 TOLD THEM TO GO SEE THE CLIENT AND ITS UP TO THE

24 CLIENT THEY WENT DOWN AND TALKED TO PHYLLIS HUGHES

25 PHYLLIS HUGHES ASKED ME TO COOPERATE WITH THEM AND



LET THEM READ MY REPORT AND USE MY OFFICE AND

THINK IN APRIL OR MAY OR JUNE SOMEWHERE ALONG IN

THERE THEY DECIDED THEY WANTED TO GO BACK TO NORTH

OR SOUTH CAROLINA WHEREVER HELENA WAS LOCATED AND

TRY TO TALK TO HER AND GET HER TO WHATEVER DO

WHATEVER

PHYLLIS HUGHES APPROVED OF THIS HAD NOTHING

TO DO WITH IT

10WELL DID YOU MAKE ARRANGEMENTS WITH MR BEASLEY TO

MEET THEM11

12YES BUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM GOING OUT

13COMING OUT HERE IT WAS PHYLLIS HUGHES IT WAS

14BETWEEN PHYLLIS HUGHES AND GERALDINE SMITH

15OKAY NOW YOU MENTIONED

16INTERPOSING ONLY ONLY COOPERATED WITH THEM

17OUT OF THE REQUEST OF THE CLIENT

18 OKAY NOW YOU SAID THAT ONE OF THESE INDIVIDUALS

19WAS CATHY TAYLOR IS THAT CORRECT

20 CATHYTYLOR IS HER ADMIZ4STRATIV ASSISTANT AND

21 GERALDINE SMITH CLAIMS TO BE PSYCHIC

22 QKAY IS SHE

23DONT KNOW SHE CLAIMS TO BE

24AND YOU SAY YOU LET CATHY TAYLOR USE YOUR OFFICE

25LET THEM BOTH USE MY OFFICE GAVE THEM SOME



SPACE THERE AND THEY REVIEWED THE REPORT AND THEY

WROTE UP THEIR OWN REPORT WHICH LOOKED AT AND

PAUSE

WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CATHY

TAYLOR IF MAY ASK

WHAT WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE NATURE OF MY

RELATIONSHIP

WELL DID YOU HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP WITH CATHY TAYLOR

10 SHE ENDED UP LEAVING GERALDINE SMITH AND WORKED FOR

11 ME INITIALLY ON FULLTIME BASIS AND LATER ON

12 PARTTIME BASIS

13 DO YOU REMEMBER MR GUNDERSON PROVIDING SPECIAL

14 AGENT MADDEN WITH THE FBI LETTER WRITTEN BY PHYLLIS

15 HUGHES ON DECEMBER 1ST 1981

16 DO GAVE THAT LETTER TO HIM

17 OKAY AND THAT SORT OF RECOUNTS THE DETAILS THAT

18 LED UP TO HELENA STOECKLEY COMING OUT TO CALIFORNIA

19 TO CERTAIN EXTENT

20 WELL THINK SHE DISCUSSES IT IN THE LETTER

21 OKAY

22 MR MURTAGH AND LET ME HAVE THIS MARKED IF

23 COULD AS GOVERNMENTS NINETEEN 19 FOR

24 IDENTIFICATION

25 ID LIKE TO ALSO POINT OUT IN



MR MURTAGH INTERPOSING HOLD IT JUST

SECOND MR GUNDERSON

GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT 19

MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION

MR MURTAGH LET ME HAND YOU GOVERNMENTS NINETEEN

19 FOR IDENTIFICATION AND ASK YOU IF YOU RECOGNIZE

10 IT COUNSEL HANDS SAME TO WITNESS WHO PERUSES SAME

RECOGNIZE IT

12IS THAT THE LETTER

13THATS THE LETTER

14AND WOULD YOU READ THE SECOND PARAGRAPH THERE

15READING DOCUMENT TRIED TO BE AS CONCISE IN MY

16 REPORT AS POSSIBLE ILL BE HAPPY TO GO INTO DETAIL

17 ANY PART OF THE CONVERSATION THAT YOU MIGHT DEEM

18 NECESSARY

19 OKAY AND THEN THE THIRD PARAGRAPH

20 READING DOCUMENT OCTOBER 21 1980 AT APPROXI

21 MATELY NINETHIRTY PM WAS AT YOUR RESIDENCE

22 IN PALISADES HAD BEEN HAVING DINNER WITH YOUR

23 DAUGHTER LAURIE AND HOUSEGUEST OF YOURS CATHY

24 TAYLOR WAS

25 INTERPOSING IM SORRY WOULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN



HAD BEEN HAVING DINNER WITH YOUR DAUGHTER LAURIE

AND HOUSEGUEST OF YOURMJ CATHY TAYLOR

OKAY WAS CATHY TAYLOR THAT SAME CATHY TAYLOR

ITS THE SAME CATHY TAYLOR

OKAY WAS SHE YOUR HOUSEGUEST

YES SHE HAD RENTED ROPM FROM ME AND MY DAUGHTER

ALSO STAYED THERE WE EACH HAD OUR OWN BEDROOMS

OKAY

10 WAS THAT THE ONLY POINT YOU WANTED TO MAKE ON THIS

11 LETTER

12 YES MR GUNDERSON UNLES YOU WANT TO READ THE WHOLE

13 THING

14 DONT SEE ANY NEED TO THE WHOLE THING

15 OKAY

16 THERE WAS NO SEXUAL RELAT BETWEEN CATHY TAYLOR

17 AND ME IF THATS WHAT YOURE DRIVING AT

18 WELL WAS WONDERING WHETHER YOU EMPLOYED HER AS

19 PSYCHIC MR GUNDERSON

20 NO SIR SHE WASNT PSYCHIC SHE NEVER CLAIMED TO

21 BE PSYCHIC SHE WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT

22 TO23 INTERPOSING TO SOMEBODY WHO SAID SHE WAS PSYCHIC

24 GERALDINE SMITH RIGHT

25 SEE OKAY


ITL


SHE SUBSEQUENTLY MOVED OUT AND MARRIED FELLOW WHO

WAS WORKING WITH ME IN MY OFFICE

UNHHUNH

AND THEYRE MARRIED NOW MARRIED

UNHHUNH MR GUNDERSON DID YOU YOU SAID YOU

READ THE TESTIMONY OF MR STOMBAUGH

IDID

OKAY AND DID YOU EVER ANY OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS

10OF THE SOCALLED PAJAMA TOP RECONSTRUCTION

DONT THINK EVER HAVE SIR

12 WELL LET ME ASK YOU YOU READ MR STOMBAUGHS

13 TESTIMONY AND GATHER YOURE FAMILIAR WITH THE

14 GOVERNMENTS CONTENTION THAT THE HOLES IN THE

15PAJAMA TOP CAN BE REALIGNED TO MATCH THE TWENTYONE

16ICE PICK WOUNDS IN COLETTE MACDONALDS CHEST

17IM AWARE OF THAT

18 OKAY

19 THEY CLAIM IT CAN BE DONE

20SIR

21IM AWARE THEY CLAIM IT CAN BE DONE

22 WELL MR GUNDERSON DID HELENA STOECKLEY TELL

23 YOU ANYTHING AT ANY TIME WHICH ACCOUNTS FOR THE HOLES

24IN THE PAJAMA TOP

25 DONT RECALL THAT SHE EVER DID



WELL DIDNT SHE TELL YOU THAT ALLEN MAZEROLLE WAS

STABBING AT MACDONALD WITH AN ICE PICK

DONT RE DONT THINK SHE EVER SAID WHO HAD

WHAT WEAPON THINK SHE SAID TWO OF THEM HAD ONE

OF THEM HAD CLUB AND TWO OF THEM HAD KNIVES

INTERPOSING WELL DIDNT SHE

OR AN ICE PICK AND KNIFE IM NOT SURE

DIDNT SHE NAME MAZEROLLE AS ONE OF THE ASSAILANTS

10 DONT KNOW WOULD HAVE TO GET THE STATEMENT OUT

11 AND LOOK AT IT ITS BEEN LONG TIME

12 INTERPOSING WELL

13 ITS BEEN FOUR YEARS

14 WHY DONT YOU LOOK AT THE STATEMENT THATS IN

15 YOUR REPORT

16 WHICH STATEMENT

17 WELL DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT TWO BELIEVE IS THE

18 1025 STATEMENT ITS PAGE FIFTYONE 51 IN YOUR

19 REPORT AND ITS ONE TWO THREE FOUR THE

20 SECOND PARAGRAPH TI THOU3HT DR MACDONALD WAS FAKING

21 IT BECAUSE DIDNT SEE ANYONE HIT HIM IN THE HEAD

22 BELIEVE MAZEROLLE STABBED DR MACDONALD WITH AN ICE

23 PICK IM NOT SURE IF THAT WAS THE WEAPON BUT THERE

24 WAS SOMETHING IN HIS HAND AND WHEN HE DREW BACK THERE

25 WAS BLOOD DID SHE MAKE THAT STATEMENT TO YOU



IF ITS IN THERE SHE MADE IT

ARE YOU FA AX VTKI THE BLOODY FOOTPRINT EXITING

FROM THE NORTH BEDROOM OF THE CRIME SCENE KRISTENS

HEDROOM

RECALL READING ABO IT AND HOW THE GOVERNMENT

VACCIDENTALLY DESTROYED IT

MR GUNDERSON LET ME ASK YOU THIS DID

HELENA STOECKLEY TELL YOU ANYTHING THAT EXPLAINED

10 HOW MACDONALDS FOOTPRINT IN MACDONALDS BLOOD TYPE

11 GOT IN THAT PARTICULAR PLACE

12 DONT RECALL THAT SHE EVER DID DID YOU HAVE

13 SOMETHING TO THE CONTRARY

14 NO IM ASKING YOU IF SHE EVER SAID IT

15 NO EVERYTHING SHE TOLD ME IS ON PAPER SIR

16 OKAY

17 EITHER ON TAPE OR ON PAPER

18 SO WOULD IT BE ACCURATE SAY THAT HELENA

19 STOECKLEY DOESNT EXPLAIN ANY OF THE PHYSICAL

20 EVIDENCE WHICH THE GOVERNMENT CONTENDED IDENTIFIED

21 DR MACDONALD AS THE CRIMINAL AGENT AND IF IM

22 WRONG PLEASE TELL ME

23 THAT THAT HELENA DOES NOT EXPLAIN WE DIDNT GO

24 OVER THE EVIDENCE POINT BY POINT

25 MR ONEILL INTERPOSING OBJECTION YOUR



HONOR

BECAUSE IM NOT SURE THAT SHE WAS AWARE OF THE

EVIDENCE

MR ONEILL OBJECTION YOUR HONOR DONT

BELIEVE MR GUNDERSON HAS QUALIFIED AS AN

EXPERT ON CRIMINALISTICS IF THATS THE NATURE OF THE

QUESTION

MR MTJRTAGH WELL YOUR HONOR MY QUESTION

10ISNT WITH RESPECT TO CRIMINALISTICS BUT JUST THE

11SIMPLE FACT OF DOES SHE EXPLAIN HOW THE HOLES GOT IN

12THE PAJAMA TOP

13THE COURT THOUGHT THATS ALL HEARD HIM

14ASK

15MR ONEILL VERY WELL YOUR HONOR

16THE COURT OVERRULED

17NO DONT RECALL THAT SHE EVER DID READ MR

18 STOINBAUGHS TESTIMONY IN DETAIL ABOUT THE PAJAMA TOP

19AND THE GOVERNMENTS APPROACH ON THAT IS ABSOLUTELY

20RIDICULOUS FIRST OF ALL THE PAJAMA TOP WAS SUPPOSED

21TO HAVE BEEN LOOSE THEY WERE NOT HELD DOWN AT ALL

22FOUR CORNERS ON ALL FOUR SIDES AND ANYBODY STABBING

23STICKING AN ICE PICK ORA KNIFE THROUGH PIECE OF

24CLOTH THATS NOT TIED DOWN ON ALL FOUR SIDES WOULD

25 MOVE THE CLOTH AROUND THEREFORE YOUD NEVER COME UP



WITH PERFECT PATTERN INTO THE CHEST COULD TAKE

FORTYEIGHT HOLES IN ANYTHING AND END UP PUTTING IT

ON PLAYER PIANO AND PLAYING THE STAR SPANGLED

BANNER OUT OF IT IS THE WAY FEEL ABOUT THAT

TESTIMONY

THATS FINE AND THAT WAS AN FBI AGENT WAS IT NOT

MR GUNDERSON

THAT WAS AN FBI AGENT AND HAPPEN TO DISAGREE WITH

10 HIM

11 OKAY WELL THE JURY RESOLVED THAT AGAINST

12 INTERPOSING IM AWARE OF THAT BUT THINK IT WAS

13 MISTAKE

14 WELL THATS FINE MR GUNDERSON WITH RESPECT TO

15 HELENA STOECKLEY SHE DOESNT EXPLAIN ANY OF THIS

16 PHYSICAL EVIDENCE DOES SHE

17 DONT KNOW THAT SHE KNEW ABOUT THAT BLOODY

18 FOOTPRINT DONT KNOW THAT SHE WAS AWARE OF THE

19 INTERPOSING YOU MEAN WASNT SH

20 TWENTYONE STAB WOUNDS IN COLETTES CHEST

21 IOU SHE WASNT SHOWN THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF KRISTENS

22 BEDROOM

23 DONT KNOW SIR SHE WAS SHOWN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS

24 IF SHE WAS SHOWN THEM BEFORE EVER CAME ABOARD

25 RECOGNIZE THAT MR GUN



SO DONT KNOW THERE WAS ANOTHER POINT ID LIKE TO

MAKE ABOUT THE

INTERPOSING WELL MR GUNDERSON THE OBJECT OF

THIS EXERCISE IS ASK THE QUESTIONS

INTERPOSING IT COVERS

AND YOU RESPOND TO THEM

OH UNDERSTAND BUT IT COVERS POINT THAT WE

DISCUSSED EARLIER SIR

10THE COURT ILL LET HIM SAY

11MR MURTAGH FINE YOUR HONOR NO PROBLEM

12THERE WERE SIX PEOPLE ACCORDING TO THE TESTIMONY

13THAT HELENA TALKED TO WHERE SHE SAID SHE THOUGHT SHE

14WAS THERE BUT SHE WASNT SURE SHE WAS THERE

15MR MURTAGH INTERPOSING EXCUSE ME MR GUNDERSON

16 ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE WITNESSES THAT TESTIFIED AT

17THE TRIAL

18 RIGHT

19MR MURTAGH WELL IM GOING TO OBJECT TO THAT

20 YOUR HONOR THATS

21INTERPOSING WELL ALL WAS GOING TO SAY IS THAT

22THERE WERE TWO OTHER WE LOCATED TWO OTHERS WHO

23OVERHEARD HELENA TALKING ABOUT IT ONE IS AN EX

24CONVICT AND HELENA HAS TALKED TO HIM ABOUT

25 THE SITUATION AND THE OTHER



MR MURTAGH INTERPOSING EXCUSE ME MR GUNDERSON

WAS THE GIRL IN THE PARK

LET ME INTERRUPT YOU FOR SECOND

OKAY

THANK YOU FOR REMINDING ME OF THAT IN YOUR REPORT

THE COURT INTERPOSING WELL THOUGHT

WAS GOING TO LET HIM FINISH WHAT HE WANTED TO SAY

HE HAD POINT

10 MR MURTAGH INTERPOSING OKAY IM SORRY

11 THE COURT HE WANTED TO MAKE

12 MR MURTAGH YOUR HONOR

13THE COURT AND HE WAS ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH

14 THEN YOU CAN ASK HIM

15THE POINT WAS GOING TO MAKE WAS THAT THERE WERE TWO

16OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LOCATED SINCE TRIAL THE

17 ONE GIRL WHO OVERHEARD HELENA TALKING IN THE PARK

18 HERE IN FAY OR IN FAYETTEVILLE AND THE OTHER

19 INDIVIDUAL IS AN EX WAS AN EXCONVICTI DONT

20 KNOW IF HES STILL IN OR NOT WHO SAID THAT HELENA

21 TALKED TO HIM DIRECTLY ABOUT IT IN THE PRESENCE OF

22 PERSON HE THOUGHT WAS ALLEN MAZEROLLE

23 MR MURTAGH THAT WAS TO BE MY QUESTION MR

24 GUNDERSON

25 OKAY



THATS RICHARD COMISKY ISNT IT

HE ATILL IN JAIL

DONT KNOW MR GUNDERSPN IS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL

THAT

INTERPOSING WELL

YOUVE OBLITERATED THE NAME FROM YOUR REPORT

SIR WOULD RATHER DONT KNOW IF HES IN JAIL

OR NOT BUT IF HES IN JAIL AND HIS NAME COMES OUT

10AND IDENTIFY HIM AS THE PERSON THEN HIS LIFE COULD

11BE IN DANGER YOUVE ALREADY ENDANGERED MY LIFE HERE

12TODAY BY ASKING ME FOR MY HOME ADDRESS

13OH WELL MR GUNDERSON BE THAT AS IT MAY WITH

14RESPECT TO YOUR REPORT WITH THE INMATE INTERVIEW

15OF THE INMATE

16INTERPOSING YES HIS NAME IS BLOCKED OUT BUT ILL

17 ONLY ANSWER THAT IF THE JUDGE TELLS ME TO

18MR MTJRTAGH YOUR HONOR HERES MY POINT THE

19DEFENSES DECLARATIONS APPENDED TO THE MOTION FOR

20TRIAL IDENTIFY THE IN AS RICHARD COMISKY

21ITS OBVIOUSLY THE SAME EPISODE THE PARK THE

22REFERENCE TO THE ICE PICK AND THE REFERENCE TO

ALL REST THISBRINGING THE SPADE ALONG AND OF23

24 SIMPLY WANT TO KNOW IF THATS THE NAME THAT MR

25GUNDERSON OBLITERATED



THE COURT ILL LET HIM ANSWER

THE WITNESS DO YOU WANT ME TO ANSWER THAT

SIR

THE COURT YES SIR

YES IT IS

MR MURTAGH THANK YOU

MR MURTAGH HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS YOUR

HONOR

10THE COURT ANY REDIRECT

MR ONEILL HAVE NO REDIRECT YOUR HONOR

THE COURT CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS12

13MR ONEILL YOUR HONOR OUR NEXT WITNESS IS

14PRINCE BEASLEY

THE WITNESS IT WILL TAKE ME FEW MINUTES15

16JUDGE IT WILL TAKE ME FEW MINUTES TO GET OUT OF

17HERE

18THE COURT THE WITNESS IS GOING TO WANT SOME

19TIME NOW TO DISORGANIZE WE ORGANIZED HIM BEFORE

20MR MURTAGH YOUR HONOR IF MAY WITH RESPECT

21TO THINK THE CLERK HAS SOME PROBLEMS WITH THE

22IDENTIFICATION OF SOME OF THE EXHIBITS AND AS

23UNDERSTAND IT ALL OF THOSE THINGS HAVE BEEN OFFERED

24INTO EVIDENCE AT THIS TIME

25THE WITNESS ILL BE GLAD TO WORK WITH THE YOUNG


COLLOQUY VOL 200

LADY DO YOU WANT ME TO WORK WITH YOU

CLER1 IM MISSING NUMBER TEN 10THE COURT DONT GO AWAY WITH ANYTHING THAT HAS

BEEN OFFERED

MR MURTAGH INTERPOSING YES HAVE

THE COURT AND ADMITTED

CLERK IT WAS ADMITTED NUMBER TEN 10 WAS

ADMITTED AND DONT HAVE IT

10 MR MURTAGH TEN TEN IS MINE BELIEVE

11THATS GOVERNMENTS TEN

12THE COURT SO YOURE THE CULPRIT

13 CLERK NO DEFENDANTS

14 MR MURTAGH DEFENDANTS TEN

15THE WITNESS ILL START GETTING DISORGANIZED

16 JUDGE

17 THE COURT TAKE YOUR TIME

18 MR MURTAGH DONT BELIEVE HAVE DEFENDANTS

19 TEN 10 IT MUST BE UP THERE WHATS DEFENDANTS 10

20 THE COURT DEFENDANTS TEN 10 WAS TYPED

21 STATEMENT OF STOECKLEY DATED MAY 24 1982

22 MR MURTAGH THIRTYNINE 39 PAGES BELIEVE

23 IT IS

24 THE WITNESS LETS SEE IF HAVE IT HERE

25 WITNESS PERUSES DOCUMENTS YOU DONT HAVE IT


Documents

· 4/17/2006 · TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 151 FACT THAT WE LET IT BE KNOWN WE LET HER THINK THAT WE HAD SOMEBODY ON THE INSIDE THATS VERY TRUE ITS …