A Gunsmiths Tale of 82G Accuracy Work

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Benton Gun Club > Club Matches > Rifle Matches > Old Friends Rimfire (Moderator: Travelor) > Agunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work

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Author Topic: A gunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work (Read 4349 times)

TravelorModeratorHero Member

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A gunsmiths tale of 82G accuracy work on: April 11, 2011, 08:12:59 am

The below comments are from Heffron Firearm Classics (

http://heffronfirearmclassics.com/default.aspx ) news and announcement

postings ove time as they worked with the Kimber 82G rifles. Don't read the

first few paragraphs and send your rifle in, read them all as they are no

longer working on these rifles.

12/8/09: THE KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT AND SOME LUCKY R&D: Have

you ever read about the Kimber 82 Government? For those of you who do

not know, this was a rifle that the government contracted several years

ago. The idea was to replace some of the aging Winchester 52's andRemington 40x's. The CMP has them now. They are selling them for $600

each, which on the surface seems like a very good buy for a 10+ pound .22

target rifle with a bull barrel and decent t rigger. The problem is the

accuracy; believe it or not.

I wouldn't have believed it. I have shot some Kimber 82's and they were

very accurate. An 82 target grade rifle should be even better shouldn't it?

Well, for some reason or reasons, it wasn't. I have read reports that have

claimed rediculously poor accuracy of like 1 1/2" or 1" at 50 yards. I would

expect that out of a lever action .22; not a tripod-heavy target rifle!

I bought one of these from a local gun store and a couple of friends bought

theirs directly from the CMP. I equiped mine with a Bausch and Lomb 12x

with an adjustable object ive. Before I went too far, I adjusted the trigger (I

got it down to about 1 1/2 pounds) then cleaned and lubed the rifle. I

double checked all of the stock screws to make sure they were tight. I

stepped out back and got down to business. I was disappointed. I guess I

can't say that I wasn't warned, but the accuracy was not anywhere near

what it should have been. The best load was the Aguila 40 grain standard

velociy and it shot a mediocre .66 at it's best. This is within what Kimber's

guarantee was at the time, but c'mon; these rifles are huge and heavy and

they are Kimbers. Can't they do better than that?
http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=profile;u=22http://heffronfirearmclassics.com/default.aspxhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=printpage;topic=875.0http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.0;prev_next=prev#newhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.0;prev_next=next#newhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.0http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.0http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=searchhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=loginhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=registerhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=loginhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=registerhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?topic=875.0#http://heffronfirearmclassics.com/default.aspxhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.msg2249#msg2249http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.msg2249#msg2249http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=profile;u=22http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=profile;u=22http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=printpage;topic=875.0http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.0;prev_next=next#newhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.0;prev_next=prev#newhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&topic=875.0http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=profile;u=22http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&board=36.0http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&board=8.0http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76bhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=registerhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=loginhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=searchhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=helphttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&http://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=search;advancedhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=registerhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e8a48b97bd022da4dd98c3eddbe0b76b&action=loginhttp://bentongunclub.org/smf/index.php?topic=875.0#


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My two friends came by with their newly acquired Kimber 82 Government

rifles. The one rifle liked Federal Gold Match and would shoot them into a

circle easily under 1/4" all day, but not by much. The other rifle did not

really seem to like anything. Once in a while it would throw a group under 1

inch, but not very often. Considering the weight, size and pedigree of the

rifle, even the best one should have done a little better. Immediately, I got

curious. What is causing this?

I read the blogs out there about this rifle. Nobody has seemingly unlocked

the mystery. Everyone says the same thing: "It looks fine, everything looksfine, but it won't shoot". This was indeed a head-scratcher. I made a list of

"things to try to make the Kimber 82G shoot". I knew that the answer was

somewhere, but I was about to get lucky. It did not take long to unravel

the mystery associated with these rifles and it's relatively easy to fix. Let's

face it, I really did get lucky. There wasn't much R&D here.

The answer is?

The crown. Why a rifle as highly touted as this would have a sub-standard

crown is anyone's guess, but it does. I have discovered that there are two

problems with it: 1) the bore and the barrel's outside are not true to one

another, so turning the crown on a lathe is an accuracy disaster waiting to

happen and 2) the crown, as it is from the factory, was not c leaned as it

should have been; it needs a good lapping. In other words, the crown lacks

uniformity dimensionally and it also lacks friction uniformity.

With all three Kimber Model 82 Government .22 Rifles the results were the

same: after cutting a new crown using a bore-centered system followed by

precision lapping group sizes consistantly ran .175 or less with their favorite

ammos, depending on winds, bore cleanliness, shooter error etc . Some

groups were literally one tiny litt le hole; period. Mystery solved. Isn't that

something? I have to say that it kind of blows the mind that companies like

Winchester and Remington had this figured out 60-70-80 years ago with52's, 37's, 513's, 75's, 40x's etc. and then a modern-day target rifle is made

with this issue.

I really do like the Kimber now. It functions well. It does what it should do

now. Why it was not done in the first place, who knows, but it was a simple

fix. There are lessons to be learned in this for all rifles. I have read about

people trying bedding, free floating, not free floating.......all kinds of stuff

with these 82G's and to no avail, but not crowning because the crown

always looked "O.K.".

If you have a Kimber 82 Government with accuracy issues, contac t us. This

is something we can fix and the price is very reasonable at $50.00 plus

shipping. This simple fix creates a whole new rifle!

Until next time. Easy does it. -Mike

Here I found a Kimber 82 Government. Overall, it was in pretty good shape

and it had a set of rings on it. The trigger felt like it was a very crisp and

clean 1 1/2 - 2 pounds. The price? $350.00. After some negotiation I left

with it for $335.00. I thought this would be an interest ing project for

shooting, R&D etc.... and R&D expense of $335.00 does not happen every

day. I jumped on it. Merry Christmas to me, Merry Christmas to me........

When we got home, driving in an ice storm, it was about 10:30 at night. I


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figured that I was already sleep deprived so a litt le more wouldn't hurt. I

turned on the floodlights that aim "downrange" and I shot a few groups. All

groups were 5 shots at 50 yards. These are the best groups:

AMMUNITION GROUP

Eley Target 40 grain 1.22"

Federal Gold Match 1.46"

Remington 36 grain Golden Bullet 1.19"

Well, not the best groups. In fac t, for an 11 pound target rifle with the

Kimber name on it, downright pit iful. I have read about this from too many

people to count. It seems like 3 guys will have rifles like this and 1 will get

an 82G that will shoot .1's - .2's. Several weeks ago, I wrote about a group

of 3 of these rifles that did not shoot like they really should have and after

some tuning, became tack-drivers. This is really a shame. The barrels are

of very high quality, the trigger is pretty darn nice and the 82 action was a

precision device.

Now I realize that there are people saying "Glass bed the action" or "The

barrel must be touching the stock" to which I say; "No". I did check to see

if the action screws were tight. I did clean the barrel. As I have discussedbefore, old Winchester 52's, A, B, C, D.....you pick it, old Remington 40x's

and 513T's would bore one-hole groups with zero bedding, barrel laying right

in the stock. This is not the answer. The problem lies in the barrel,

somewhere.

I examined the crown under a microscope. It did not look very good. Quite

honestly, it looked like it was cut with a dull tool and lapped

with...........nothing. I recrowned it using the self-centering system, then

lapped it. It was time to shoot more groups. Again, all groups were 5 shots

each shot at 50 yards. These were the best groups:

AMMUNITION GROUP

Eley Target 40 grain .43"

Federal Gold Match .45"

Aguila Target 40 grain .34"

Obviously, much better, but there are still no trophies to be won with groups

like this. There had to be another issue. By now, it was about 1:00 AM and

I was tired and out of coffee. The time and come. I had to make more

coffee.

I cleaned the barrel, then ran a bore scope through it. I came up with 1

other issue. The throat. It had much lead stuck to it. I cleaned andcleaned and cleaned. I got the lead out so to speak. I went out and shot

more groups. This time, because I suspected another issue, I used only

Aguila Target 40 grain. I kept shooting groups one after the other. All

groups were 5 shots at 50 yards. Here are the results:

Group 1 .19"

Group 2 .24"

Group 3 .39"

Group 4 .41"

Group 5 .44"


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See the trend? I decided to clean the barrel again. I examined the

chamber/throat area with the bore scope. No question in my mind, it was a

litt le rough. It accumulated lead and quickly. It would accumulate it quickly

enough that it was getting leaded before the first group was even complete.

I lapped the throat. I used lead and various grades of diamond abrasive. I

spent some time on this. I wanted it done well. After I was done, I shot

some fowling shots, then examined the barrel again. There was no lead in

the throat area. Excellent.

It was t ime to shoot some groups, after all, it was now 2:45 AM. All groupswere shot with Aguila 40 grain, 5 shots each and the distance again was 50

yards. Here are the results:

Group 1: .12"

Group 2: .17"

Group 3: .15"

Group 4: .14"

Group 5: .11"!!

Bingo. Have I found the secret to these rifles? It is appearing so. It seems

that we have a rifle that was intended to replace aging Winchester 52's and

Remington 40x's and Kimber, for whatever reason neglected to do the finefinish work AKA: tuning, that a fine match rifle needs. The next day, in day

light, I shot one group all day. I didn't measure it, but it was at least as

small as any of these, possibly smaller. I read about people restocking

these, bedding them, replacing the barrels all kinds of stuff. Folks, they

need to be meticulously tuned. This is an awesome revelation. There will be

a tuning package available soon for these. 4:00 AM, time to hit the hay.

7/14/2010: KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT DISCONTINUED: After MUCH

discussion with HFC employees, HFC customers and taking our experiences

into account, I have made the decision to discontinue services on the Kimber

82 Government Rifle. This was not an easy dec ision and I regret having todo it. I have many reasons however. After tuning a large number of these,

we have found the following:

-VARYING THROATING: Before serial number 4,000 the throats were not

correct at all. After that, they appeared to be acceptable. We have

discovered that it's not so much that they were cut correctly after #4,000,

it appears that more of them were cut correctly after #4,000. We are

discovering chamber and throat depths that are all over the map.

-FUSSY WITH AMMUNITION: While Eley Standard Velocity HP and Eley

Tenex are typically the best shooters in these rifles, some of them are VERY

picky and it can be maddening to find the right ammo.

-MACHINE REST vs. STANDARD: Before shipping, we check these in a

machine rest. They do meet our standards or they don't ship. We are

finding that the TYPE of rest makes a larger-than-normal difference with

these rifles. We have customers who say the rifle will not group, after we

just finished shooting it! For whatever reason, these rifles are very critical

about WHAT they are rested on. How a 12 pound rifle can be this fussy, I

will never know.

We want consistency. We demand it. Consistency keeps our customers

happy. I have many customers that are happy with these. I have some


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customers that are not happy with these. We are unable to overcome some

of these issues, due to the original manufacturing inconsistencies associated

with these rifles. It is for this reason, that we will no longer offer service for

the Kimber 82 Government. I don't WANT to do this, but the issues

associated with these rifles are often too much to overcome without

spending unrealistic amounts of money to correct them.

We will continue to offer support for the rifles we have out there. Please

communicate with us regarding any issues.

KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT IMPROVEMENTS: It is amazing how there is

never a dull moment. Am I hacking on my personal Kimbers? Yes. Have I

bought more Kimbers? Yes. I wish to get to the bottom of this. We have

been examining fired bullets to see what is happening. On the Kimbers that

throw funny groups, we have observed that the rifling is not parallel with the

bullet. This happens when the bullet is not entering the rifling in a true

fashion. The bullet still spins, nose wobbling the whole way, then it leaves

the barrel to wobble itself right into a wobbly group. We are working on a

throating system that we can hopefully machine in all of the Kimber 82 G's in

a uniform fashion that will eliminate this problem. A while back, we found

several Kimber 82 G's that had the same kind of throat and these throats

worked well so we proclaimed that the "post S/N 4,000" was the way to go.Now we have seen several that vary so much I am unsure as to how things

could vary this much within one state, let alone one fac tory. Currently, the

research looks promising, with some of the lessons learned from the

dedicated 22 long rifle forcing cone bleeding into this project. I will keep you

posted.

KIMBER 82 GOVERNMENT: The mystery continues, BUT an interesting

discovery has recently been uncovered. I will warn you up front; this almost

seems too simple, but I believe and have at least semi-proven that there is

something to this.

I took a Kimber 82 Government that was recently acquired. It shot groups inthe 1 " range. When fired without the stock, by clamping the barreled

action in a specially designed vice, groups were in the inch range. First, I

pillar bedded it. Upon completion, it shot groups in the 1 " range.

(Hey..If the screws are tight in a wood stock; you have a receiver-to-

stock "crush fit" so to speak and for a rimfire, its not going to get much

better than that .) The barrel was tuned. The old crown (which looked like

hell) was removed and our HFC AccuCrown was put in its place. The throat

was inspected for uniformity and was found to be acceptable. The throat

was polished. The entire bore was lapped. The barrel was then pressure-

cleaned and then lubed. After break in, the barrel was fired outside of the

stock, by clamping the barrel in the specially designed vice. 5 shots at 50

yards showed a 1 hole group. The stock was reinstalled. The groups werethen around 1 inch, much like it was before, although slightly better.

The NEXT step is where the "learning experience" comes into play. I did not

see this happening and I have theories which I believe to be very viable

concerning this.

While the barreled action was in the stock, I tied it to the LEAD SLED along

with sandbags. I used tie-down straps that ratchet. This rifle was NOT

going to move. This is how we test them before they leave here. The

result? A one-hole group. Well, I can only come to 1 of 2 conclusions:


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1) I, and some of my customers are crappy shots (which I dont buy.)

Or

2) There is some other thing at play here. Something involving Geometry

and/or Physics. Here we go

The first thing I will mention is the height of the rifle in the forearm area.

When comparing it to the height of a beavertail Remington 40X or beavertail

Winchester 52, this thing is TALL. So lets say the rifle is tipped while restingby .01" under fire, while the bullet is in the barrel. Performing the

measurements between a beavertail forearmed 52D and a Kimber 82G

(regarding height from the bottom of the forearm to the center of the bore)

our hypothetical .01" tip under fire would create a shooting error of around

of an inch at 50 yards. On the Kimber, due to the increased height, would

create a shooting error of around 1 1/8" at 50 yards. This is the first theory.

Now, the second theory. If you examine the forearms of many, many target

rifles, the bottom of the forearm is parallel with the barrel. Not so with the

Kimber. When you shoot, unless the rifle is strapped into place, it WILL

move backwards somewhat. It also will move backwards WHILE the bullet is

still traveling down the barrel. As the rifle slides backwards, its originalsighting height changes, because its forearm is angled in relation to the

barrel. So unless you, as a shooter are able to have it slide rearward the

EXACT same amount every time you pull the trigger, your elevation will

change from shot to shot. Think about it. Measure it. It is actually quite

surprising.

So, what we have is a tall forearm to barrel relationship with a narrow-tipsy

forearm that is not parallel with the barrel. What a combination. It certainly

explains why they shoot here on the LEAD SLED and why they dont on some

peoples sandbags, including my own.

Quite frankly (and I hate saying this because I try to avoid stock-work like Itry to avoid the dentist.No offence John W.) But, the forearm really

needs to be, at the very least made so its not so tall. A little width

wouldnt hurt either. Maybe with some milled aluminum? I will cont inue

working on this.

Concerning throat dimensions, I have found 3 different throats on these.

They are not random in dimension, they are just 3 different match-style

throats.

The potential still exists with these rifles, but some modifications that are

seemingly needed were not entirely predictable in nature. SURPRISE!!

Again, no "Black Magic" or "Zen" here, purely Geometry and Physics. I willmost certainly keep you posted.

KIMBER DROPPED: As you may have read, I have been losing hair over the

Kimber 82 Government project. Not too long ago, I wrote about some new

throating that saved otherwise poor-shooting rifles. Since then, 3 more

have come through. Out of the 3 rifles, 1 worked better, the other 2 were

virtually unchanged. Crap!!!

For a company our size, we have invested massive money in this project. It

is a very sad thing. These rifles have great actions, and so on. Some of

these, despite our best efforts and research beyond research, struggle to


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shoot as well as a Marlin Model 60 Semi-Auto. We have discovered that the

"hopeless" ones have barrels that measure more along the lines of a 22-250

rather than a 22 LR. Rather than the 1 turn in 16" they SHOULD have, we

have found some with 1 turn in 17.5" and other variations. That can't help

any. How rifles can vary this much from sample to sample simply amazes

me. No wonder they went broke.

I really don't mean to rail on a single company, but if I had a dollar for every

Kimber rifle (new or old) with an accuracy problem, I would be a very

wealthy man, (Nah. I wouldn't be wealthy; I would just have more classicguns!) I have seen centerfires and rimfires that are poor shooters for the

money spent. I have also seen some Kimber rifles that shoot great. The

variations in accuracy are virtually endless.

My point? After investing deeply in R & D for the Kimber 82 G project, it

seems that right when we think we have it figured out, a new batch of serial

numbers is released by the CMP and along with that, a whole new batch of

problems.

It is unfortunate, but we are officially abandoning the Kimber 82 G project

and will no longer offer service for them. I sincerely apologize, but how cananyone keep up with this?

Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 08:18:44 am byTravelor Logged

George Toney

No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

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A Gunsmiths Tale of 82G Accuracy Work