(ContLn Btlon o! 24th b11c Slttlng) •

.lJ'TERDCII OJ' SIT IIG .lT LADYu IT11. on TUESDAY.

14th OCTO! • 1930.

IID •

• YIIAflSIJ )l3!JTO J a m :)]0- S

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to pp. 2415 ..t 2449 •

•

- _ ...

• ( litH !l IJ 11.3 1 4 U 11 UnoO)

,B'1'I Y T {lIT!

• oe e I ,=lm'l'OO d:t!>I

• I

~s . qq

11 'fIV l!DE~ISBS

(1 )

( 2)

(:5 )

(~J.

(0)

(6)

( 7 )

( 8)

(9)

2. 20 p. a .

~~~~==~~~. Ladysalth .

==:....:::..::..:=~=~L:'!O. Dr1dontein. Ladyslll1 th .

PHlWS HOKllXU. LAdyuith .

A SiARlLlLl. LAdyslll1th DiBtriot .

~~~~~~~~I, LAdy.aith Distriot .

~~=-==~~==~_~::AD~EB==' . LAdys.ith and other DistriotB .

~~~=====-~~==, LAdY8mith and other DiBtriot • •

Bambazi, Bergvtll. District).

'aU14 aDd .xamin.d.

==~~~==~==~=KLA===, ( .aleY8n Ch roh, stationed at

R.aking in gliah): I want to make 8 state.snt '3 .1th I :

o t o •• ion . Xr. Chairman and gentlemen, 1 shollld like

lve evid.no. on JIl t a tew POtntl.

tirst point ia the land qll8stion; I think that i8

t • qlle.tion t ia trollb iug ollr people today . In the

looatlona, ir, the people are 0 orowded thst there is hardly

ro tor th • to hoe their stoclt , and tile plaoe tor cultiva­

tion 18 .er7 limited ind.ed . U uallT looations are very rough

pl oea; that is ~ experienoe ot looations trom .hat I ha.e

e n ot he •• and they are not ot muoh us. tor culti.ation:

t e1 are •• ry, .erT small plsoes and dittioult ot culti.ation;

an t e 1008 ions theaeel ... are net Euftioient to oover ell

the natl., ohiets around the di triot. Some ohieta have to

li •• on tar.s be08us. there is no 1 nd tor the.. I hop. you

will understand that our natl •• people r.aliFe the vall1e ot

ook in preterenoe to that ot money and other things; th.y

• inly think a man i8 w.ll-to-do it he has suftioient stook .

and it i8 the only .eans by hioh they can li.e. It they oBnnot

2. aUv, wi tna ••••• - 2416-

c.t aqrthina o~t of the aoil th'T must aell a beaat in ord.r

to 11v., and to drea. thair ohildren. On far •• the treatment

aith .hioh theT aeet ie '0 ro~gh that we often see them mov -

1 froa fara f.ra , beoall.e OIL the faraa there ie no llIli -

toraltT in the rllllll1llg ot farm. and how the natl.e. are han-

dled there. III 0'" ot .r »lao •• th l' are Ual ted 811 to tha

Il be of atook, nd on other farma theT are paid 10/- for •

e a 12: at • theT Pllt i. wlth labollr , and OIL other farml

a aill t --r do DOt get aq p T '

em T: .hat 18 10/ - a IIOllth '1 - Yea, for aix

d on other firma theT ara not paid . e otten find

OIL t e .. t.rm. that o.e of them are oalled upon JU8t to help

apart troa thOle who take their term of serviol on farms, and

o nand cb lIlren are al:o oalled pon to help , apart from

t 0" aho are r 8 on i le for the 8ix aontha .

Anoth r point la that there la DO writtan agree ent

,hioh proteota theaa native people ,hen they 11v. on farma;

there i8 no wrltt n a,ree ant hieh proteots a man livi on

a fara and t he faraer . Ih th t waT wa al~a71 flnd our people

8 tter11l1'

thar q e.tlon to whioh I aould like to refer le

tha qua.tion 1 wage8. .e find that thoBe aho are orting In

t:owna re not 'Iltfioient17 psid to look after their faalliee

d upper t their ho .... Aa an lnataDOa, the Corporatlon

here in IedTsmlth pa s au avera 8 of £1 . 1 . 0 . a month .

o And what proportion ot tood 1- !heT ara

allo.ad 100cl.

!hree .. ala or two T- hey are allowed three Mala .

It i8 .ar1 •• er1 dlffloll1t tor people to liv8 on uoh aa ea,

Q ua me ot these n h ve to p "1 rent at the rate of

3 ••• th. 1 tn •••••

16/- - 10/- alnl .... ~p to 20/- • ~nth. ~~st fo~ the rooll!

.lone • era th., liY •• I thlnk another diaedyantege of thls

dl trlot 1. that •• hay. DO loo.tlon al pr ••• nt where natl, ••

o.n ... ttled .

fH CHAIRKAI : Ar. 10~ r.ferrlng no. to the tOdD. or

• loo.tlon o~t In the oountr1 ,- I am now r.ferrlng p.rtlo~­

lU17 to tho 'e who co •• to ork.

You .... n. the to looatlon 7- Yee. I th lnk I bay •

• lr •• dl r.ferred the n .. d for locatlon. - tb t th •• 18 a

,reat 4a1l8Jl4 for 1o.aUon. - for • ohlef to haY e Mrs lud

t han he he. tod., . hr,r flDd It v.r1 dlfflo~lt to 11,. wltho~t

debt Ith the pre •• nt .&&& ,1,en to o~r natl,e peopl ••

Another dlfflo~ltl 1. to flnd .mpl01S8nt In soma other

re.plot.; In oo~t. om.tlm.. ~Iopa.na are t.ken In pr.f.r-

• • to natl, ••• s Interpr.t.r • • and .ven now on the Ral 1".I.

ec_ nath •• h.,e been thrown o ~t of emplolment ud Ellropelll1.

p~ t in thelr plea • • wl th th. ranl t that .. n, ot the.e n.th ••

have to do .1tho~ t or k.

~th.r polnt 18 the taxatlon whlch has b.en Impos.d

on th .th. p.ople . I ng to the lo w wage. It 18 v.rT dlf -

flc~l t; 8O" of tba. are .lw818 In pr 100n b.oa~s. theT have no

AOnB7 Ith whloh to paT tax to the Government. 118t we under-

, tend that the tax .~st be pald bT the people ••• flnd on t e

oth r hand \heT h.,. to PB7 .ven for ed~oatlon; there 1. no

free .4 catlon to oar p ople. W. tho ht .hen th18 personal

tax imp08ed •• would h.,. faol1ltle8 and free ad~oatlon. A8

It 1s 1n atel no ••• have to PBT sohool fees. and when thls

tax was iap08.d • thought w •• ere to racelve free educatlon.

D • Where dld 10~ et thBt I nformatlon from

? - h.n thia tax .a8 imposed e .ere told that par t of It WB.

•• Bati, •• itne •••• - 2418-

to go to rdl .d~oa 10n. and w. tho~ght it waa gOing to OOl.r

the aohool f ••••

Another pOint to whioh 1 would 11ke to r.fer 11 the

q~e.tlon of the pa •• law. . 1 think the pM •••• r.qulred now

fro. our people ar. too .. ~. If the perIanal tax. whioh

1. the reo. p t . auld OOler e,er7thing. I thlnk that wo~ld

be IIlfflohnt.

~th.r polnt to wbloh 1 should 11ke to refer is to

the ue.tlon of th ••• b •• r oante.ns In town.; I thlnk th.7

Ire our p.opl. to spend IIIOr. at thelr .ane7 . and

th'7 hal. n t .~ffl01ent., left to support their familles . I

f •• l i t the Go, InaCDt auld oonslder th matter at th •••

nati'. people bei a low.d to br.w a 11ttle In thelr homes.

- if th 7 oannot do wltto~t It - It wo~ld be Infln1te17 bet­

ter th the beer oantee I whlch are enoo~aglng them to

.p.nd thelr lone7 todl7 . I hop. that thls Commislion i~l

brl into the h.arta of .11 the people Bome of that oonflAenoe.

whloh I thlnk tod.7 i. I blt laoking, on aooount of the hardships

that t • people hs,e a .eet. I hope thla Comaiaaion will p~t

• &00

the

ilpr ••• ion into the linds of those who are inte reated in

o.lUon of our native people tod81 ' That is all I bave

to 887. ir .

riefonteln. Lad7smith:

I prefer t o anawer q~eatlona.

lr.

~~~~~~::::...;===iLA.=. La478mi th.

(Interpreted 7 • Fa7e): I wish to apeak abo~t t he reaaona

for natl,ee In r~ral areae golng into ~ban areal. One of the

~. ati ••• itn ••••••

r.a ons i. the oonditione on the tarm. und.r whioh th ••• p.o­

pl. ha •• to li... A. a rule the7 and the1r tamilie. ha •• to

8 art •• r17 in the .orning to work - aa7 6 0'01 ok, and r.-

in st work until lat. . Th.ir wag •• tor this kind ot work

ar. low - ~lu.l17 about 10/- a .onth. !Aother ,.a.on i.

that on the tar .. the 70~ nati ••• are ohastis.d b7 their

.. t.r - both C1rl. and bo,. ar. beat.n, and the7 tire ot

that kind ot tr.atm.nt, and g.t awa7 trom it , and t17 to the

towns . .en aerrl.d om.n run aWI7 trom t rae to town. b. -

oa t .1r h~ band., b.ing 80 poor17 p id , are not able to

oloth. th.ir .omen-tol~ a. the om.n-tolk would 11k •• 0.-

trom tal.' In the wl7 I ha •• d •• oribed

•• find that 1 n410rd. eJ.ot th.ir t.Dant. - kraal h.ads, and

to. kr.al h.ad. with all the reaeina of th.ir faailie. ara

p~t on the road 7 the w1711d. , knowing not whither to go .

'7 a •• no 100. iona 1n thi. d1atr1ot to aooommodat. the.,

8~d ••• ntual17 that ola •• of Dati •• also dr1ft. to the townl.

I think the dioin. tor ouring the trouble of natives flook-

1 0 town. would be better treat •• nt on the farma - better

a •• , b.tt.r oonditions ot e~107ment . • do not like to

Ie our people fl ek1ng into town. from the rUlal ar ••• •

• thin, further, that 1t would be un lae to attempt to make

nati.a. wbo .re no li.il& in towns to more or le •• perae en.-

17 r.t~n to the land, ~lea. the oonditions on the land are

1. o •• d. 0 .. of the people who EO to the town. find ao­

oommodat10n 1n ho •• ll behind Indian- owned properties - hOU8881

other •••• nt~8l17 soq~ire .tands of their own, have d.c.nt

bous •• , and hold tItle to th.s •• tands . The wages p 1d to o~

p.opl. orking bere in Lad,smltb rang. from 1 to 30/- a

.. ,till: -, .u .... I.e laNU .... U _IN.. IUfl.alU •• 1a

I.eqllal '.. ..lite .. tM ..u. ........ He.lu. h •• , ••

"1111, ,all .. \Ilea tIItr Ut. _ ,.,. ft,t - eft .. u/- • _till

folt • au aM~.« 'l¥ .... ,... till ... ' •• ef ... ,.Uu

- .. - M. .... I J'" .... 1U. IMI •• 1o .. lIte ....

u. 0".1t _.aeezlM .f We I a. •• ·'71.1, .o,n_tei

~. to ,Ia ••• Uu Atfallr ........... 1& IM_.1a - it Ml' M

'het , IIIMIt' ....

I .11 \h ... , .-leI. . low ...... 11 .. tn. -

tbat 1 .... I ea11 ..... t U/- • -*0 ... It." 1, .Ie.,.._ - ..... ~ .... , .1t1o to •• ,

... _. 1. it .... a,1t ••• .., •• D-

.1 ., ... __ t.lIl, tOlP .... le •• _Ulr ...... 1 __ ....

oall 'I •• _ ... Jl _.t. al •• s ...... _Itt 'M

wh.l. _ aM '" tIIui ........ 1 ... 1 .t •• "'... IIdac

nd1 ... WM en ...... l¥ •• 11 .. eft au .... 10 Mile Ml'

r ... lu .Ile ........ til" _ .. tIl_l ... ~ U •• _ft

I.o •• 'l¥ , .... \IaoJ' ...... ~ ., ad - -bI ., '"lit ... 11-

Inn _ .. 1 .. __ • "Un ,. .... wltll1ac 1a Ie •• u. .... 1 ••

g.' oalr M ..... JA/- ... U/. "'. too. h '-le .... te.

A .. Uu lei •• 1llaI __ &a 1eQeU" ... ~ 1/- ...... .

It 1 ...... 5 ., w1 au .'" ........... lIt .. - ••

, ... ... pte __ 1/- -' a.... .. ... rli , _all M ... ea. of .... , _ t- I

____ .t ,... 11 • 16 ,... • • t... W1

It ...... ... _. , •• u , .. ,1 ..... 1& .... 1 wiell .. ~ ....... N"_ ....... , tn. , ... wJl1te ._ •

7. I.U". itne ..... -U21-

than •• do froB the Indian.. A whit. tr.d.r .ill t.ll •

nati" •• tor .xa .. l •• a ahirt ao.ts 10/-; the white man .ill

. tiok 0 hi grio. - but not ao the Indian. SugposiD& a na­

t i" ••• nt. to b~ • shirt trom an Indian. and the Indian

t .ll. hi. the • irt i 8 wor\h D/-, the native ha"ing learned

wi.doa troa pr."ioua .Ig.ri.no. aaT ask. as it hs i8 about to

1 .... the a ton. 'rII. Indian w111 .. ".. "-U.J& b.ba" ("00 ...

bae , fath.r") "I will redua. the priae for ".ou" - .nd

."ent all". it .. ". b. the abirt ahange. hand. tor 2/-.

lD regard to the que.Uon •• to how our people in

t01Ul8 "1 be benefit.d, Sir. we would ugge.t that nati"e.

ho h ... e .aqulred oms abl1it". in dolng thing. should be paid

.0 ord1lli to that ab111t".; I am thinkins DOW of nath .. who

oa ork in tr.de •• Let the~ also haye the opportunlt". of

r lnc bu.in ••••• ot their 0... At present, busine. i. in

t e h.nd. of urope.n •• nd ot Indian.; our people have the

r •• te.t dltfloult". i. s sttl permi8sion to .stablish ator ••

&D7Wh.r. i. .tal. I thi~, .ir. that th t ahould be oarri.d

ut thr0U& out .ud i olude our childre n ho go to sohool and

o mple •• oourse of training th.z., and who fit thems.lve.

for doi b.tter th.n tho •• ot their own .g. who hev. not had

the .... tr.lnins •

• ". I _". ao_thing .baut ut,Jw.l. - our national bever­

. s e. e hue had ut"...la •• an iDh.r1 tBDO. trom the hoar".

pa.t. 10. owing to ill •• hite IIlIn's laws. there 1s int.r­

f erenoa with the uee ot our ut,JWala. h. driDK to us Is muoh

the as ... a lOur tea 8Dd ootte. is to you in th1e country.

era i 8 DO int rferenoe with lOU in re .rd to that. Ut,Jw.la

i 'fu". atul to s . not onl.J froa t he ola • but tbe

8. J. t i ••• itn ...... -2422-

p~.otio.l paint at .i... It. man .i.b •• to h., •• hut b~ilt

o~ g.t 80m. oth«r .ork ~n., h. iDYite. people li,ing in bi.

n.ichbourhood to 00 ... long and l.nd 8 b.nd, and he like. to

gi,e tbe •• t~eat; h. p~o.id •• at,w.lI to~ th... Th.~e s •• ma

to b. an indioation now that tb. Go.ernmant will inte~tere with

tha t. 'l'h. r.ault at interhreno. i8 that au people make oon­

oootions which ar. poisonoa. , and whioh oan b. contain.d in a

a 11 ••••• 1 mor. e •• ily hidd.n than oan b. the ut,w.lI .

ho • p.ople h.n bre.t th. la. and SO to th. bad plao. - the

plao •• biob •• abhor - 70U oall it ",,01" .

I think th. wbit. p.ople aa, •• lso tound th t tbe uty­

wala i. u .. tul. 1 ill quota the e%R~l •• t the Britiab sol-

41e~. ho .er. utt.ring from t.,er b8~e in Ladysmith, and wbo

w.r. i •• n at,wala and ben.fit.d b7 it. 'l'h. Jatal Authoritie.

pro.id.d the obinery b7 1 .. in this oount~7 apparently tor

h.l ing the nati.e b7 allowina hi. to beao .. treer t ban be

a e \Ullin tb. rule of. ohief - tha t 18 , it pro'ided tor tb.

,x'.ption tro •• nati •• trOB tbe at.l R.ti,. La.; but the

10 .r o~ experienoe beoo ••• ot tbis 1 .. , the more BO'ptiosl

w. ~ow a e to the.. benet! ta . Take to~ e%Rmple tbe oas. ot •

~ri.d _n .ho ••• lta ,X,.pUOIl hen be bae two ohildren;

exemption 1. g~.nt.,; the letter inolud •• hi.selt and hiB

.ite . nd WO oh1lu'll; At woe unto any oh1ldren whom he may

b.get att.r tho" tw. . Although .ooo~ding to tbe oommon law

ot hi . 00QAt~7 ohl1uen take the etatua at their pa~ent. ,

in e '7- ot the 1 •• &IIiT ohlld~en begotten atte~ a man haa

.oom •• xe.pta' .r. not .x •• t.d, beoause their na.es do not

.p .ar in the pa~. .' letters ot exemption. Al 0, it e man

b.oo ..... it.war - ha.ing b.en an exempt.d nati" - and aarri ••

9 ••• the wltn ..... .

• In , hi • •• oond wlt. o.naot b.oo •• eX'.pt ed It she Is not

alx.adT ,x'.pted when she ma r rl •• • Thes. are 0111'101111 anoIll811 ••

t the .tel la. ot lI:x •• ptlon •• 008par.d wlth B.tl,. aw •

1 CHIEl DE1WA. B'.AltAU . LaGTaalth Dl strlot :

(lIT T D BY • Un:) : I .lah to .upport the spaalt.r

who has ret.rr.d to the oondl tlona on t.r .. , and to .dd that

.000 1' inc to ~ exp.rl.no. oonditions are •• en wor •• than he

h •• 4 •• orlb.d th ••• It la •• ldo., In the p.rt tro. whloh I

oom., that a natl •• 1. p.ld ••• llOh •• 10/- a .onth, It 1. acr.

00 onlT 6/- a .. 1. in the 0 ••• ot a mal. , and In the oa •• ot

f.mal ••• o •• tl ••• onlT 2/6d • • month; in .0 •• 0 ••• ' 5/- only

tor a p.rlod ot lx nth., and in oth.r 0 •••• absolllt 17 noth -

In • dlld the wbol. tl •• a natl •• worka on a .ar.. I ••

ap.aldnc no. ot tarlll tenant • •

In r. ard to natl ••• wbo hiI" plaoe. In towDB,and Ol1t-

dd. ot towna ,owlnc to tha low ..... pald to th •• the yo~

p.opl. flnd I t •• ry dlttloll1t lndeed to .eet tbelr tax dl1 •••

f b. Go.ernment .xpaot. the. to pay tl a baad - that 1., grown-

up .. 1. natl ••• • Bllt I wtah to explaln that ma~of o&» p.o -

pl. axe not able to paT that t , or ha,. gr.at dlttloll1ty in

pay1n& it baoal1.' ot the 10. waSia they reoal,. . Road party

na tl ••• are pa14 t2 a .onth. plll. h If- a- orown tor be.f 1'.­t lon.; bQt Su.ndaya are DDt o_u.nt.d . The.e people also oomplaln

that •• an in Go,.rnatDt work thay are not treated as th.y

ollld b. In r.gard to w .....

I .01114 11ke to mentlon the oas. of ona of many trlbe.­

man .ho •• ra gaoled tor tallllr. to pay general tax; h. wa. not -

abl e 0 p Y 1t on aooou.nt of t he poor waSi. he reoel,. . When

h. oame Ollt of pI' .on and .ent baCk home h. was 111, and hal

10 •• aUy. wltM' ••• -2424-

~ ... 1A.d 111 8Ya~ .tao.. I. wa. o~d.~.d b1 the oonrt to pay

~. '-lanoe of t e tax dn. D1 hi. - 3 - a Boon aa he reoo­

y.ra hl. h.alth. • •• uppos. that whan . a person 1. punlehad

orlainsl 1 for brea lna the la. he hae atoned tor hla ottenoex,

that t e orlme 1. blotted o~t; bnt ln thls oaee, deeplta

e 1.p~1 on •• nt h. haa a~te~ed, thl. man haa still to pay

ha 1 oa ot e ~ne, tor hloh ha w a pnt in gaol. The

ra.lllt 11 tbat a aon ot hie ot abont the hi ht I lndio.te

haa had 0 e tak n ont ot hool tJ oome to La dy sm1. th here to

work to a.rn tha aDna, dua by hl. tathar.

Oil ~1J ZarDI, Lad, II1th DiBtriot:

( I ]) . rAT ): a are glad 0 t the oppor tunl ty ot

klna lapra.antatlons toda1 bator a this Commi.alon. I a. a

1al .ar'ant ot the o'eln .. nt, wlth oYar thirt1 yeara' .er­

yloa rq oreUt - bllt tha .. bole ot that tl e I ha'a pent

li'l~ on tara.. paople, not only the" bnt .~ ft all the

p,opla 11,1 on tar .. , arT out tor mora land; they ask the

oYarnmeat to proYlda looatlon tor thea .hare they may tlnd

rat a. 1'IIa paopla oannot tor at the .e8Or1 ot the rllla ot

ne n Vlotorla, baoa~a t w.s ln ha~ tl.e and in her nama

t looatlons .are set aalda tor n. native. here ln .atel :

bnt a Datura! lq has .en happa1ng a.,ng t na sinoe the

~eln'. 1 .. - .1 p~opa,at. ol1r kind,and o~r ohildren ha,e eo

lnorea.ad no. a. to haye b800 .. too l18ny to be aooollUDOdated

ooatorublT on tar ...

tar. are thlra undar oon ldarabla ln8eo~ity ot tenure; they

are ubJaot to ra~Y81 at the .111 ot thelr master at an1

tl a . lopla ho llye ln towna do not reollea how unoo.turta­

I h I lot at thl native. n farm . On t r a the nett .. a

eva 0800 .. lika tha ~8.ahoppers of the tlald; the1 do not

11. ath. witne ..... - 2425-

know wh.r. th.y will .pend their f~t~r. - the n.xt da7. ~r

P.Olll. in the old daya .ere aool1Btomed to live I1llder their

hereditary ohief. , trlb. b7 tribe , and when the white man came

her. they .till oll1ng to th.iI ohi.f.; bl1t instead of looking

to th.lr heredlt.ry h.ad as their ki • th~ look to the magis­

tr.t •••• h. rept ••• nt.tl'1' of the highe8t al1thority in the

land • •• their father . low . altho~h that i. the oaB •• the

people h.ye beoo .. 80 aoattered on far •• a8 In no longer to

.dh.r. In a 008paot grol1p to thelr ohiefa; thay find that

de.pi it the b .. t wish in the odd they cannot do BO . In

ea07 in tano •• th.y ale remov.d and they have to go elBawhere.

ome ea7 think tha t o~ p.ople drift to towns beoause they

pr.fer town 11f.; bl1t I do not think thet is the oas.: 1 think

th'7 0011. here beO.I1 •• th'7 hav. to "&hl1t.ke" themselv •• - tha t

1 •• f17 ••• 7 ••• the sa .... a bird do •• , and pl1Bh their heada

Into • tl1ft of gr ••• in the hop' that they lIay not be s.en .

and 110 8.t ••• y fro. th.ir trol1bl... I sl1ppose. I am regard.d

a a huaan belne. 1II1t 1 wonder hether I am in reality . 8 a

tl111 grown aan I shol11d have the opportQD1ty of finding a

pI oe here loan lIve like a haman belng . and keep mw oat tIe

abol1t me: bl1t .110h i8 not 80 on far.. . Th.re . there are all

kindll of relltrl1otlona whiah 80.p.l natl •• tenants to 1imlt tha

nl1mber of h.ad of atoak whioh theT eay keap . It is preSSl1r8

on far a I1l1ah .a I h.ve d.8aribed whloh drives Q\11' people awsy

from them and .. ke. thall wand.rar.. They hank.r after tha

tr i b 1 ayat •• ; tII'T wi sh to 11'1. =der their ohiefs; th.y

d. ir. to k.ep th.ir h.rds abol1t the. - bl1t oonditione are

ag inBt them . and th. resI11t 1s they flee away , 1I0at17 knowing

not whith.r. What has been Baid to YOI1 gentl.men b1 the oth.r

£p. k.rl oorr.a~17 r'pres.nts tAe position in regard to the

12. I.th. wl tn ...... -24.26-

Pa7 of natlv •• livinc on farm. aa t.nant.. !h. n.tiv •• pl.ad

.1 th UI. verllll.nt. throush 101l. to be 81l0001lr.d in th.ir

pre •• nt dUfiolllU ••• fblre .r •• p •• t nuab.r of naUv •• on

far .... nd t a Governaant ooUld rind pl'nt1 of them to Pllt in

loc.tiona. lt t.e1 on11 .ollld.

OHI fIll nos I.

(Interpr.t.d b, Mr. Fa,e): I allpport what the other apaak.ra

hava .aid . bllt woUld 11ka to a.r 80mathlng abellt my •• lf. I am

• ohl.f. bllt 1 h.v. no land. 1 hay. held offl0' DOW for t.o

, •• r • • and h.va r'pre •• nt.d -r •• d oa •• to tha latlve 00m.18-

.lonar har.. In J\lIl. I ent to •• e the hier Xatl,a Oommla-

110 .r In lateruri tabul to do the 8all.. I have IIQt ret b.en

o the ne" lath. OOlllmiBaloner of thla distriot. becallae I have

not ,.t had tha opportlllllt1 - bllt to hll1. too. I wOllld make the

.alle r.pra •• nt.tlon • • In vlaltlng Lad1salth 101l have oome to

•• a Ollr taar. - to h •• r Ollr r.pr.s.ntatlon.. !hosa are my

the overnlllnt oonsld.r s1llpathetloallr the re-

pr ••• nt tlona whloh ha,e b.en IIIde br the other apeakers and

tho •• 10h I have .a.. 01lI KIVrISAZU &.11I .. m. Laersml til D1Btriot •

• Fare): I have nothlng IDOre to aa1 than

haa alr.a 1 be n .tated to the 001lllll1 •• 10n. Ho oan" elll-

pta lze more Btrong11 - how oan we flnd words to do 80 - hat

haa b.en Pllt b.tor. 10llt Here a. I • ohl.f. wIth a trlbe. IlIlder

notloe to laav. ~ landlord'a tar •• Jot on17 does that atat. of

• ft.lra .ff.ot a p.rson who i8 a ohi.f. bllt it aft.ots d.r br

d., the follow.rB of all ohiaf. on .11 privata landl; ther .r.

8llbJ.ot to .~.ot •• nt.

!b ..... 8 pald to Ollr people on far ••• r. exoa.dll1&11

13. "U •• witn ......

,_11: 1011. ,.t on17 2/- a month. other. work tor tOIll' or

ti.. ontha and .t ~thing. and wh.n the7 ask tor pa7115nt

theT ar. told thel are ".l.k.l.lallngW (h.lplng). Olll'

people ar. a •• n b7 the road.ld ••• ven b7 the ral1wa7 11~,

lootill& ollt to B •• whether someon. 11187 oome along who "'ill

take ao.paa.lon on the. and tlnd the. a plaoe on whioh to

11... I toolt a. in the .... p11pt; I have nowhere to go,

Ilt hl.t XI1II810 haa been It1nd enoqgh to let •• atiolt ..., •• U

awa7 ill hl. ho ••• • wOllld pl.ad IIIOlt ear neat17 wlth the

o.ernaent, ~Ou.gh 7011 gentle.en, to have Bo.ethlng done

tor 11.; .. en lt t e Go.ernm.nt a.~a tor .onel tor land whioh

1187 b. pro.id.d tor ua, "'. WJllld do Ollr beat tu ooll.ot ;ha.

nel, 0 that • and Ollr ohildren "7 have so .. plaoe on

whloh w. oOllld 11.e and b •• u.r. of aeollrltl ,t tenira.

Wara the Government t a&r.e to alloh a aOllrs. bel adopted,

wa would illite it kilo f r and wlda, so that all ho are in

the .... d1ftloll1tT all wa ar. wollld get an opport\lDltr of

JOin! IlP and oontrlbutlnc th.lr little towarda the bU71ng

of the land. I IIUPPOS. wa.n I get ho.e. ~ ohildren ill Bal,

• ath.r , 1011 h .. a now .polten to the repre .. ntativea at the

Go.,.r Mnt in "4,ysa1th and told them at Ollr p11ght; what

aueo •• a ha. lIet 101lr e!tortll! Ila •• 1011 now tOlllld a plaae for

11 aT " I lIhall be oUlpA to tell thu that I have failed • .u

to the rat , 1 pport what has all.adl been Pllt betore the

Oil., AAJDI SI!OLl, (Ladlsa1th and other Dlstrlata).

(Int rprete4 .. • raye): Gentlemen, 1 have oome here ·

er.17 to pal ..., r •• peata to 701l. I have tollo •• rs in thia

di8triot, and 111 oth.rs, bllt ..., homa la ln the Kslnga Di triot.

I ... haar ~t ~.re 18 a prospect ot 101ll' golng ther., aDd

1.4. .atl~. wltn ...... - U28-

a. wonderlll8 .h.th.r 101l ha .. Jllat poatponed 101U' v 1&1 t .

!h. or1 whloh has be.n Pllt to 10U b1 the other ohlets 00 •••

tro • .. ~ heart.; I ha,. ~ tollow.re in this distrlot, snd

t h'l p1. .. d In the .a •• al - the1 aleo want ilion land. W.

t hlnk th t tb. r.medy tor tbe troo.b1.1 ia in the hands ot the

o~. n.en\. • tlnd th t not onl1 ar. 01U' people inor.asing,

but t he hlt. people too . rh. r •• lllt 1. that th.r. ia l •••

roo. tor the poplll tion now than th.re waa ln e.rlier da7a;

not onl1 that, bo.t the •• n •• ot proprl.ty whioh waa ahown b7

ou p.ople in the past Oil all oaoaeloDa , .. " .. to b. a1.1ppll1g

awa7, alld i. b.lnc .upplaat.4br a aplrit w. do not 11~ .

oo k aloha. inor.a .d. and lt the Gov ernment wl11

onl y SlV. o.a an 01' orto.nitl ot ba.7illg land in the way that

ba. . en po.t to Tao., w. ohl.t, wlth y~llr authorlt7 ooo.ld oom.

o n Jpon Olll! tollo .. r. who ha,e oattle and aompel the. to

• • 11. a r.a onabl. na..b.r ot thelr atook, and eo rals. neT

to ard. the bU1illg ot land. It w. ohlet. are not to b.

t alt.n into oontU.no. by the Go~.r .... nt ln .. ttera ot th1e

klnd , .0 that •• oan oo- opelate wlth the Authorlties in •• elng

t ha t pro~1.1 n ls III&d. tor the natl~e., what wl1l happ.n to

• _ w t wlll beoo .. ot the plopl.; what wl1l beoom. ot the

r l' o t .hloh I hu a1.ll&1. r'l8rd.d as a ~ery neo .... ry

thi In ute, Oa.r Infl.ll.noe o~er ou people hall beoome

r k.4lJ l ••• than It Il • • ' to be; theT do not h •• d Ollr word

• th 7 dld 1. the ,a.t : and w. hope that the rlpr •• ent tlons

w. ~I now .. d. be.torl thl 00.-1s.10n in •• gard to that,

an ln r.gard to oth.r .. ttlr., wll1 bl talt.n notloe ot aDd

oon.14.r.' ~ thl Go~ernment, and wh.re neo.sBBr" that thl

o'.r~nt wl11 gl~' .or. authorlty - more power to the ohl.ta

to Intor.' l.aw .. 4 orA.r . In t he 1.ooatlon the people ha'i

lll. If. th •• Un ••••••

b.oo • 10 JIll .. lOll I u..~ I BO .. ti II .01111.1' whlth'r l.,.ntu.l17

t '1 wlll DOt hlv. to .t.nd on on •• noth.r'l 'houldlr., ... or

p rhap. h.adl, 10 a. to be aill. to tlnd ,tanding rooa, l.t

.lonl alllpl roo • •

h ••• ~ l.,~ takln tho t at the natlv. , alDOl. Coaai"lon ot

.0rth7 .. n, .uoh ....... betor. III iod'7, haa 1I •• n olio .. n io

vl li thl v.rloll pari, at thl 00llBir7. io ... oondltlon, and

••• 100 .. ihll, ,1l1la ••• ar. th.

o 11dnD at i • 'funatnt, and look to the Auihorliha , .a

do •• a oh11d to 1" tather. It 1187 lie ih t ihl~ Gourlllll.nt

n. 117; ihl pre,.nt-d'7 nath. 'tru 1 •••• b.,t hI oan In

to1101111& athr til •• hite _n an4 i1'J'lnc ~o ".'1; ihl b.,i that In 1.h. at

bl oan at hd 18 troa thl white _D, but/.-,* faoe/.ll thl

41ttloIl1UI' .1th hloh hI nat .. 18 faold , hI. hill a ver7

up-hlll ti_ at U . !hl lin who ha.,. alrIBd7 llpelten hOI Indi­

o.t.d In wbai 41rlOtlon., .1111 I wlll not w.ar7 70U 117 r'peatln"

w at ha, ,lr.a.7 b.en IItd.

!hare 18 on17 anI oib r .. Un I wiah to' _ntlon - th t

1., hloh 11181 ,h. thl J.uthoritl11 Ull lapre',lon

thlt .', the • .lila ...... M'&1 !rll1l, are dialO'7I1 • wh.t hi.

happ DI. 18 _oh the ..... , th18 I IUppO 1:ng !, 0.' on. Wil'l to

00 ,10 to ... at 70' pnileaen, hand 7011 • kDit. , all4 .'7

io 7 011 , "x.ok 70' h'l'l, kit. th18 Itn1t. and III rlt 70ur oatil.

wit Ml'k; OIUla 1I1l0D&1DC to the person ,., a haa han.,. the

knlfe to lie .rut wlth the mark ot thl perlon who hand. O'flr

10 I kn1t •• " ~ v.r .. lDt ha, don. an aot ot that tiDd In o~

16. Batl~e wltnea ea. - U30-

Trlbe, and I fear. In a few da7a' tl .. , thera wl11 be a oa.e

heard in OIU OOl11't ariBing Ollt of that mattar. What haa been

40na wa. not properl1 aXplalnad to ollr people, and the result

i8 that there i atrong oppoaltion to the aotlon ot the AIl­

thorltlea. It 1 ~ar1 ~h 11ke Bettlng a tr p for a ohlld.

le.41.nJ tha illllOoent oh1ld to it. und hen ha~ iD8 the fun ot

a .. lnc the uatortu.nate 700& hlUlan belnc IIltter1n, dlBBlaoe.

hat i. how I "7 deaorlbe ehat haB happen.d In ollr area now .

e ould very alloh like the Authol1tles to appoint BODe oom­

petent per on .ho haa the oonfldanoe ot the natlve. In matter.

ot hl. klnd . to ,0 through the land an4 eXplain thlngs oare­

ful17. nioe17 and olearl1 to the peopl ••• 0 that what iB done

'" b. done after the people ha~e be.n made to understand var7

olearl1 the paapo.ed aotloa. The man Bittlng on ~ left

ri,bt17 resinda •• ot somethlng whioh is a grievanoe amOD8Bt

the p.ople hereabollta, Sir.

0" hor .. a in thia distriot beoa .. aoabby; the

v.rn •• nt i all.4 an ordar t t these hora •• had to be d1pped

11k. oattl.. bllt 1t dId not end wIth tb.*; all the horae.

b.lon,ln, to all of Ila have to be dlpp.d. and we are told . e

are ot to r Ide the. until we are allowed to do so by thB

Iltborl ti.a. -------------

!Hi CH.URlUI: (To the Rn. Pamla): You have referred

to the taot that the ohlet. In th1s diBtriot are living on

fer .. , that there are no natIve looatlona here. Ia there aqr

propoaal that 7011 or 10111' ohlefa wish to make wi~h regard to

that f- (an. a.la): Yr. ChaIrman. I thlnk the Boliltion

iB for the Qovernseat. It i. only wha t we •••• thst the

17. Iatl •• wUn.aa ... -24.31-

ohl.t. rownd here ha.e DO locatlon, and that the people are

bai .hitted.

hen 70~ .a7 the Go •• rna.nt .ho~d s •• to that, do TOU

oon ldar the GoullUlent .hould make land a·,.,llable to theea

ohi.t. f- Y •• , q~te ao .

ho~d h. Go .. rl1ll8nt~ ,h., or •• 11 , the land to the

ohlat. , - I thin tb. Gil9arllMnt .ho~d b~ the land tor the

ohlet , b.oa~ .. ~ ... natl ••• ha,e DO tund. *lth whloh to buy

tar .. , a. I polnt.d o~t b.tor ••

ADd the Qo,eIDm.nt .hould mak. that land a pr.e.nt to

the ohlate '1- Ye ••

The CIU.te wollld be ,arT ll&OlQ'. would they not 1- Y •• ,

ul t. eo .

IOw, .hD~ld there b. land eDDugh glven to the Chl.ta to

.ak. too. tor all th.ir tollow.r. ?~ Ia should t~ so, Slr ,

lt the Go,.rn .. nt bought the tar •• adJo1n1nc l ooatlons.

ADd ,1 •• that to the ohlets and tollower. to 11ve on ?-

ADO, th.n, those tollo •• re wl11 ,0 away tro~ the tarma

and 11,. on that r ••• r,. ?- Yea, it they wl h.d to .

ADd the tarmere wo~ ha,e DO labo~r?- The tarmera

ould han labollr bT giving b.tter wag. to the natl ••• who

w n t work.

You .ay the natl •• ' wOllld lea,e the tarma to go and

11,. on r ••• r, •• , . Y •••

ould tIl.y ,0 b.olt to the tarma to work f- Tla , Juat

to ork.

Th.T do DOt 111t. to 11n on the tal'~s?- 10 .

Why .0' ,. BeOall" at tha pre •• nt 101 •• on the tar ••

17. I ath •• Un ...... -U3l-

ohi.f . round here have DO looation, and that the paople are

be! shHted .

hen TO~ .aT the aov.rna.nt .ho~d e •• to that , do yo~

oon Un the ur_ent IIhOllld ulta land av ailable to thee.

ohiaf. f - Ye., quite 80 .

hollld h. Go .. rJ1JMnt~ ,he , or s.ll, the land to the

chiafa , - I th111k the GourDMnt eho~d bll7 the land for t~

ohi.f , b.oall .. \h ... nattv .. hay. DO fund. *i th whioh to buy

farae , a . I point.d o~t befor • •

~d the Gov.lnment .hollld uke th t l and a pre •• nt to

the ohief. '1- Yea .

Tha hiatll wollld be very lllClQ , ,.ould they not?- Ye.,

qlli t •• 0 .

Io. , hollld there ba land eDOush given to the Chiefa to

. ak •• 00. for ell thair follo.ar. ?~ La ahvllld t~ ao, Sir ,

i f tha ao •• rn .. nt bousht the far •• adJoin1nc looationa .

~d ,i'. \hat to the ohlefe and follo.are to live on ?-

~d then, tho • • follo.ars .ill go a.1T from the farme

and liv. on tha t r •• arve?- Ye., If they wl t hed to .

~d the f l rmera wOlll, ha.e no labour?- The farmer.

olll e! have l.bo ;tr by giving better wag. to th e n.ti.ea who

w.n t .orlt.

Tall .ar tha nativ •• wOll14 leave the farm. to go .nd

lha on

01114 UaaT go b.ck to the farms to work ?- Y •• , Jllllt

t o worlt .

ThaT e!o DDt lika to 1i.e on the fara.?- Io .

WlIT ao' , - BeOall" at the pre.ant ti •• on the fara.

18. Jla tl'f' wl tn ••••••

thay U' DOt. tairq hall4let.

Io , yo~ proJO •• that tIla Goyer_allt .hould pr •• ent

land 0 tha .. )80)la t.o go and lh. Oil, 111 order to gat them

away tro m the tarm. ,. Ya ••

o 18 to pay tor tha t lalld Y- I GOuld Bay the Gov­

er_.nt ~ollld pro'f14a .. a ••

Ya.; b~t whar. i. the Go.ernment to ,.10 ItY The Go­

.e nment ,eta lta MIl'y bJ tadna the people, d088 it DOt. Y­

Ye. , qll1te .0 .

oald yo~ 8~e.t the oyernaellt ho~ld tax tho •• tar­

ur. to ,et land,to take away their labo~ ,. Io, 1 ehould

not 11k. to .~e.t that.

I ahollld think not 1- The eol~tlon 1. tor the Go.erll-

1110; it 18 not tor _ to .. y,

11 h re IU'd to a wl'1tte •• ar ..... nt, 40 YOI1 think the

Ilatha. ot thh 4111101'1010 are ill tnou ot written agreementa

1· Ta. , I h4~ld thlnk 80, ir.

Doa. that repre.e t your pereonal vle., or would 110

repr.a.nt the .1" ot the Dl t1ve who soe. to work on a tar. Y­

I t Ink It ollld r.pre.ent the vle •• ot the nativee, beoal1sa

1 find 0 •• 101 ... whan they are In trol1bl •• nd shltt.d tro. a

t.r. theT ..,., .~ oon4l tlon WBB thts .nd the 10 .. lth the land-

ownul that noe he do •• not k •• ) to 110." I tind In 81loh

oa •• that th.y ahollld h •• it In written so that they oan

haye o •• thl .. to Htll' ••

It hal baell IX)laln.d to U8 that treql1.ntq the nail •••

do not want to .. ra. to the wrUt.n .graem.nt; they art atr.ld

at 81 na tht1r Da" on p.per 1- I 8hould not thlnk BO, It

hare 1& eo .. on. to ltn ... that ho. the,y trl18t, 01' It 00 ••

dOH $h. Kaclav.,... I think they could ... 1q a.e to 1oha'l

19 ••• tiy. itn • • ••••

• ow . with r.gard 0 the baar o.nteena; do TOQ oonsider

t .t theT are a bad thing : doa. t t rapra.ent TOQr yie • • or

the y1 •• ot tha natiY'. ,enoral17 T- I think that ropre.ente

th. vi •• ot th. peopl .nar.l17 , b.oaQs. 1 think thaT aro aware

at the faot that h.re in LadTsmith th.r. i. a strike again.t

t • ba.r oante.n.

I. it that thlT obJ.ot to tha be.r . - or tha ¥QDioipal­

itT eelling b •• r Y- !h&T obJaot to tho .ellin of the bear

.r. in town.

!heT .ant to .. It. it them.elye.?- Instead of th.ir

giYin& it to th.ir ho ... . it .nooQlage. them to epond th.ir

on'T •• Dd not to 8&Y. it.

Th'T WIIIt to .. lte the b.er thetl. lya. Y- !heT •• nt a

little tor them •• ly ••• tho ... ho drink; that is .hat theT WOQld

prater .

A.TO VAll II RI:: ••• not the .trike on aooount ot

the a en not b.ing able to 'at beer?- 10, Sir; that .as not

the o •• e; their ohiet oompl int was th t thair husbands were

.p.ndiD& their mon'T there. and that theT and thair ch11dran

were lett de.titQte; theT had nothing to eat - no olothes . and

.0 on.

Did not thaT 8&T theT anted to _Ita beer and sell it

the alv •• T- .0; thaT •• nt.d to brew JQat a little tor their

own homa oonsumption.

O~ T: How long have TOQ been in this distriot

Y_ his ia ~ ,eoond Tesr in th1s distriot; 1 .as thirt.en

7eara in tal. but in thia distriot I baYe onIT baen t 0 7 •• rl .

I liyed on • al •• ion resen e, and oalllll up to Estoourt and 11ged

in t01lll .

- 2434.-

Ha.e TO~ 11.ed on a tarm Y- Te.; I ha.e been J,st

010 .. b7 tar ...

ere did 70~ get TO~ kno~ledge ot tarm lite trora Y_

I got it trora the peopl., b.o.~ •• Borae ot ~ oongregation peo ­

pla 11 •• d on tha tar .. - a good nnrabar ot th •• ; tha1 al"18

coraa or1i and ult1Jlc OO.plal.h .

!~.a paopla on the t.r .. ; do BO .. of the. own etook?­

TbeT 0 n a taw. beoa~ •• thaT are al.a1a 11attad to a oertain

.rabar .

ThAT oan 110 ••• took Y- T.a. a 11 ttle .

'he nat!.ee 1n tbe town. - ara tba1 .all ott Y- Bo . I

cannot .aT th'1 ar. w.ll ott .

u. there -u.r of thea who have got aonB1 in tha bank

Y- I boud not like to eq; theT ara rather poor . beoau ..

tb •• a, •• ar. 10 in tOWB; th.1 baY. not suttioient on whloh

to .a •• •

Tbe or41nar1 nati •• In the town her. , i. be able to

118l'rT - to taka a .U •• Dd to uk. a homa tor her 1- . Well ,

t eT do .

!h. _JoritT of the. - Go theT have wl •• a , 11 .. e in

to , and ba.e ho ...

tOWIl.

T.s, tha "JorltT ot the. li.e In the

!h. natl.e. 11ving on the tarm. - ar. tb. UJor1t1 ot

tbe. raarrie4 Y- Y ••• I alloud think eo .

Do not TOU thlnk tbe native. on the tarm. ar. bett.r

ott t an tho .. in tb. toes Y- I ahould not 11ke to sa7. beoa ae

in 110_ instano •• ---

!h.r. are ot OOU" .xc.ptlons. If 10U •• r. 0 ad.ie.

them to laave th. toliJl8 ud 001118 t

tbe tar .. - ~ ... 11 •• better there, .oud ha •• IIOra Mne7.

and oa , - I ahoald not 11ke to dlotat. t o a~ona ,

-2436-

21. ativ. ~itne aaa.

-2436-It yo~ think tha natiye. in the towns are so muoh

b tter ott, an~ haye ~ore aoney, and oan spend more, snd

live better, do not 10~ think 10~ o~ght to advise the natives

to oome to the tow.oa T- They hay. a ro~h time in the to na,

too.

hioh 1 the ro~gher ot the two?- It is dittio~lt tor

a to ea1; I ho~ld not like to aa1.

LUOA: Do yo~ think that there o~ld ba the same

o Jeotlon about beer brew1ng b7 the town it it were Bold at

co tt o~ay the ~iclpaliti.e make a big profit?- Yea.

Do lo~ th1nk there 'liQuld be tbe Bame objection to the

m~ioi» 11tie. lelling b , 1f the prlca ere J~£t the cost ?-

0, I think the prinoiple itaelf does not enco~rage our peo-

ple to say.; the yery feet that it i8 there ia a temptation

to 11 people in to n, both yo and old, to buy beer .

10 • 10~ spoke obo~t 4istr at an~ mi ~nderBtanding

been the m thee and t e tlrOpeanB; i9 that now more thsn

it ~ e4 to b~, or 1. it getting le •• 1- Well, Slr. 1t 1s

very 4iftio~lt for me to say. beoa~Be I am not an old man; 1

do not know the hi.torl aa far baok, b~t the position todal.

wi th the har4ship the people are meetIng. haa the tendellCY

that the1 teel the vernm nt is not doi eno~gh for them .

I think it ie onlT bard shipe and «iffio~ltias that lead them

o h8"l tha t reeling .

Do 10~ hone.tlT think there is distrust now of the

hi te on the pert ot the DB tives 1- I l'ho~ld think ao; I

i there is that. owing to hard hips nd diffioultiel,

that tha1 haYe 10 t hope, and I think this Commispion whioh

haa 00 a 40an here perhaps is Boing to give them hope that ao .. -

111& 18 1 o be 40ne by the ovornment. beoau e the

22. ative witneaaea .

Gover ent i. not beginnin.g to enquire into their matters .

VAN fiI RK: What ia the greatest hardshi p

you have now with the black peopl e T- I think I lave a lready

pointed that out, Sir, that they have no land on whi oh to settle .

The ir agea are low; they have no means of support i ng their

familie., they are being shifted from farm to farm ; the num­

ber of stock ha.e to be 11alted . I thlnk t hat all t t leads to

rdships.

UR. LUOAS: You aald that aome nativea could not ·pay

th tax. ". are told th t the farmer s are very ahort of workers;

hy do not tho.e people 0 and ork on farms - those who cannot

pay th e \.al[ 1- I think I have already polnted out, Sir, that

they pay tbea 80 11 ttl,.

I ",a, {Jot tal Ing of gol118 aa a aqua t te r or tenant,

but a day or monthly labourer 1- I do not thlnk e.en then , Slr ,

that th Y pay enough to encourage people to go there; they oan

there If they are s tranded and pu hed by the overnment to

p y the tax.

h t can be done to make the natives wl11ing to work on

the f ras BOre rtadlly than they do now 1- Well, I think if the

Government bad some law to show lando~nera how to treat their

natlves, nd ave unlformity with all the farmera round about, as

to how to handle natlve. , and aa to wbat a nat "ve should have

hen h is on s fara t - I thlnk that ould ancourage the na­

tlves.

t .r. the oomplalnts of the natlve about t he work on

the fsrm f - rhe complaint ls th nt th y are call~d upon to work

at tlm a 1 hout pay, and help there , even if thej have aerved

their tI .. on the farm . That i s their complaint.

ADd la \b,re &AT oomplaint about feedIng 1- I cannot aa~

23. the ."i tne.aea .

" ATO UJI I m;RK

plaint about that 1- Wo o

You have not heard of any oom-

LUCAS: Bow . ia there a"7 desire on the part of

the native for 8001al equality with the ~uropeans 1- yes. I

should thin ao .

I do not know it you have c;.uite got what I mean: is

there a deaire on the part of the mtives to mix with the

hite eople in th.ir hou •••• well. in their sooial life ?- A

c rtoi cla •• of native. Ba, the, like to be progreasive. be ­

oau •• it ou14 improve the. - but not the majority.

OBE TS: t claa. wou14 that b 1- I think the

01yl1i ed el.a • •

A'rO VA. JII J>A.I,,"" o you know that there is a

oaroi 7 of f ra 18 our ?- Woo lr. I am not aware of that.

You do not now wtether the farmera are complsining

of ho tag. of labour or not T- Wo o

1) Yeu sald there WS8 gre.t difficult7 when

a ent to e.rch for work here . ve you no Bureau tv

whioh people could eome here when the7 wan.ed work ~ - • sort

of of1io.: 10U know hat I mean?- I do not seem to follow.

'.r1 w.ll. S.,. natiy. is waiting employment. how

ill h get it in this to n when he comes here 1- The natives

o ron d to the dlff.rent honeea .

go to

t 11 i

you •••

It

Ie th.t the onlJ w.y th 1 oan get 1t 1- They sometimea

uornitl offioe .

Bnt there i DO offioe to which h can eo th t ould

'" ere he can get ork?- Woo 1 do not know of any.

Then 70U mentioned about tte tax . ~re you quite sur.

014 th t the tax would mean free .duoation 1- I think

8a 8bout to be impo ed people were told th t part of the

-2438-24. athe itne .. ea.

tax was to go towarda eduaation, and ao we thought that that

auld ~an free ed aation for cub etandards, up to standard vt, Ye.; but no-one said that to yo~ 1- 1o.

Then, would you be satisfied with the tax reoeipt in

pl aoe uf a paaa?- I should think atx, Sir, I think that

auld aerve the purposa.

KAlOR A~ ON: Thia que.tion of native. on farm.;

do you think "Q1 native. would b. willing to live on farm. if

they ere not allowed to keep aattle? You know that the dif­

!loul ty i8 to find grazing for oattle. If they worked wi thout

oattle they oOllld :ake better terms, and the farlUra would be

lIOuwUll to have th m. llo you think anT number at natives

auld e wil11ng to work?- I should not think so .

LUCA" (To Chief W81 tar KUIlALO) : You hsve your

oen farm 1- Y •• , S1r.

I Tour .hole tr1b. able to liYe on tha t farm? - No ,

not the hole tribe.

far

v.r7 f.w.

live on

her. do the r •• t li •• ,- SOIU li •• on European

d 0 an,. go Ollt to the big tONne to worlt?- Only

Wh D you '.1' thr,r 11 •• on farms, that meSDS they

rope an farme Y- T •••

On what oonditions do theT 11ve there Y- As s quatterB.

hat ale the oonditione f- They are labour tenants .

Tea, bllt do they set a pieoe at lSDd to plough?- Ye.,

nd grazi • Of ooarae, all their stook is limited.

'1'0 110 • ..n,. f- TIlt re ie no unifor m lial. t; .o.e S87

eD, aom. toar, and 80 on; but the general ayerage i •• e.en.

Do aQ1 of the tUIIBrB in YOIlr nei.;hbollrhood allow IIOre

t teD f- Iot.., ~t I kDow of.

25. lathe .1tn .... 8 . - 2439-

Are there 8~ of tha farmera .ho will not allow any

cattle at all 1- Yea .

And theT « t nathe. to the on their farllls IUlder

tho e condi tiona T- Ye • •

Do they «et .a8e. 1- Ye., but they varT.

hat do tIleT . &rT froa - what il the lowest 1- Half

a orown, eepeolal17 for a &trl .

But for tha aan?- For the men, e~ 5/- upward.;

there are &:I:oeption. , where they do not get any pay at all.

fho.e are exc.ption • •

ollld YOIl .a7 moat of thelll ge t 10/- , or 1II0B t of the.

l.a.?- Le •• than 10/-.

Do all the memberB of the family have to work , or

Ju t the men '1 - 1Io.t17 the .. n; bllt the other members of the

familT ar. oalled upon to glve a hand, saT once or twice a

weelt.

ho 1- he whole faailT; the ayerage is once a week,

in whioh tiler hn. to «l.e a haDd.

hat ar. theT .upposed to 81ve a hand with 1- fhe

70 8irl. and boTa ha •• to 80 on aturdaya to sweep the yard

and olean the whole premi.es, and on onda7 the old women oome

out to do the wash1 and ironi - on ndq and Tuesday .

Do theT «.t paid for that 1- They do not get paid.

Th. aan , when theT are working dur 1ng the 8i% montha -

it 1B B1% month. ls it DOt?- Yes. fed

During the B1% month, do they get/,.., 1- Ye. , they

are f.d on .erT poor food - Onl7 m.alle meal; they get no

eat at all.

SIJ.l'l' 0 V.l1!l I£lO>llK Do they get akimmed milk 1- Bo ,

not now . 1a the oldan days, when the Boer people Il.ed to own

26. aUya itnuaea. -2440-

theee tarms thay got it, but they do not get it now at all •

• LUClS: Ar. they satistied with the tee ding ?- No .

When a she p 18 dead, it is either oooked tor towls or given

to pigs; th6 fara-owner will not have a~thing given to the

nativea in the way ot meat at all.

Do your people stay tor 10 per iod s on the tums, or

Co th move about trom tarm to tarm?- Just no they move

a out trom pl oe to plao ••

h1 ia that ,- I think it 1s owi to the limit ot

atook, and the natiye wl11 not part with his cattle. The

laW8 are not 80 strict now, and the psrente have not the con-

trol over the yo people that th~y had betore, and once the

young peop e get a thrashing trom the tar~r, or receive some

ill-treatt.ent. they go away. and BO th y move about in that

w 1 ,

You hava told u t.o rea on hy thet move - one Is

bout t e oattl , end the other is the ohildren runnin away.

Are t ere aD\r others 'i-ille- they have been worki 1n to 8

a d t oa h,-the1 are not paid as much as they are paid in

to na, so they .an~ oash - they.ant muoh more than they get

on th tarms , they think, so they must go to the towns.

e nati,es .e hava baen epeaking about - when their

ix 0 th are finhhed are ~hey made to work the res t ot the

1 ar, or oan tha1 go away T- 0" ot the tarmers let them go

a y for the reat ot tba ,ear; ~hey expect them to be punot al.

to 00 to aryloa, t oggh.

Durigg that period th yon go away and earn money

ala tere Yes.

De .. nr do that?- r should Bay 50 per oent.

Z1. athe wl tnea.aa. - 244.1-

Do &n7 ~ on worklng tor the tar mer tor the next 81x

.ontha T- Yaa .

hat wage. do thr,r get then T- hey do not get any­

thlne mor. then • pound generally.

And the1z food? - Yel , when they are on sen 10e .

%h. aame tood that you .entloned f - Ye • •

t!O VAl 51 Dld 1 UDderatand you to say that

yo atera w.re tor.erlT better treated and that the tood was

for ar1y b.tter n the farm. f - 0. I 8ald tormerly the kraal

heada had oontrol oyer their ohl1dren .

No; I .a14 the to04 and the youngsters?- Yea, thr,r

40 not ,.t .. at that theT uled to get; they do not get .e.l

or food; th81 onlT get porridg ••

Dld you .81 that the 10U ster. were treated better

former 17 T- Ye • •

In whloh aT ar. th87 worBe. off no 1- They are

or e ott b.oau,. th81 do not get foo d. eepaolally lth the

you a"ra U la food that ILlttere aoat17 ·

hy 1 lt that th far .. r. are treatlng them worse now;

• y ara they etti worae food th·n they u ed to get formerly T-

I think the far .. ra ar. poorer now th n they w.re before; w.

fin tha t a lot ot farlla hue be.n cut up l nto small f rIDS, and

,Poorer peopla hn bean put Oil Ua.ae fara The farlllers pre-

Y10U 17 .are .ealthy people and cou14 attord to glve natlves

more fo04 he.ha t they glve 110 ••

la 1 t the a ••• ola .. ot farlDer. la 1 t the eona of the

tormer faraar. ,- Io , Ua.y are II •• people; as far as I know

aome ot the. co.e fro. toWD. . Thay do not know far •• ; thera

ar. u1ta a .ood te. of th •••

e N: lou were at Lovedale, .ere you not ?-Yaa .

Dl. ,.a eyew &0 to the a rloultural achoo1. at ·.010

Z8. ath •• 1tn ...... - ZUZ-

a.. d f. 0 IT) 1- Io.

I tblnk 10~ •• 11 r.all •• tbat 10~ oan onlT k.ep a

oertaln nab r of a l_ls on a ]lieoe of groed 1_ Yes.

Bow, 10~ p.ople are J~at allowlng tbelr animals to

keep on inor.a lng?- Ye • •

not 10~ reall •• tbat that ls y.rl bad for th e

round. tor the a mala and for tbe ]leopla 1_ Ye • •

yo~ oattl. are no ••• tlng u, 10~r p.ople 1- YeB.

Beo ~ •• tha1 ba ••• at.n up all the graa •• th.ra are

onl, ]leopl to .at - 10~ ed.r.tand ~bat I .&aD?- Yea .

18 it ]loaalbl. tor ~a to do a~thlng to make all 10~r

p.ople reall •• tba t it 18 a bad thing T- I thlnk 80 . Sir; I

hint that 18 p08.1bl • •

I08 hat 8bo~ld e do?- I think if the Go.ernaent

.ore to lIe he natl.ea. e.peolal1, thoa •• ho 0 n land. aa we

va are - If the .ernmeat .ere to give them the Councl1 e18-

tom - I think lt 18 J~.t the aa.e eyerrwbere; lf th~T .ere to

a &1".n tho o'ppor t Ai t7 the ran kehn .,aople have , I thlnk

th n t1gea wOll1d oome to nall .. th1.q. , beoall .. the la.e oome

tro. the., a. lt war' - \b'1 propo •• th.se thlngs . Of oOllre • •

th.r are enlight.ned pao,l., and "AT people do r.sllse lt , and

it a law or proolaaeUon ••• pan.d b1 the GoY8raMa t - eman-

at1ng tro. tb ... tly •• th •••• l ••• - I thlnk theT would r.alise

aad oull I wl111ac to abld. b7 the d.olslons of the Comno11 .

])0 101l thlllk th. COlUlOlls would propose to 11Bi t tha

a btr of 8took to th. a.lUlt then 18 land for?- Yee.

Arl 7O1l oyer- .toolt.d on 101l fara 1- 7beT are terrible

.re, Sir.

Hay. 10~ be.n able to do a~thin that wl11 red~e. the

oy.r-stoelting ,- • h ... tr1.d. These fa m8 are 0 n.d bT a

-2443-

29. lath. wi tne .....

":rndioa te. e bave pa.sed reeolutiona and tried to limit the

atock; but the.r •• nt on another farm, and have emplo:red a

lawyer; 1/e did nc t "ant to go in.o 11 tigation, and things are

bad toda;y.

liL> C J.t 1a nI:r diffioult to get a native

to liait his stoak Y- Yea.

KR. KO T: An area w1ll onl;r oarr:r a certain numbar

of stook; 10U r.ali •• that, do 70U not?- Yes.

And if 10U plaoe more stook on that area, 10U will

DOt incr.as. 10ur stock; 10U al a res11 ss that ?- Yea .

If the Gov.rna.nt wer' to 88T, ·Chief, :rour area will

oarr1 a man;r head of stook , aod no more", and then at a given

time, 'You and Ton oOUDOillors have to deoide that 8 0 man;r

he d of .took mu t be aold", will that suit 10U; will that

be II help to 7011' Your dlffiollltr ia, there 18 no law to en­

force al~ man in YOIl/ looation to sell ,-tooIt?- I think an

intelligent native woul~ UAdarstGnd that law, but the ordinarT

native ho 0'. DOt underatand it at all _auld then BIl8pect

the OVeIDa.at, kDd there would b. trollbl.. I think if the

natives ere to be given lome governaent, such aa the native

00 UDOil , they auld understand it.

If 1011 and TOUl intelligemt oouncil were there as a

ooun il, nd he vernaent aaid , "that area ~ t oarr:r so

Y stock, and DO ~r.·, will that do 1- That will do,

beo u • tho •• oOUllOillor. will have b.en .leoted b1 them,

nd .ill be repr .. ent£. tive of the nativea .

SEItlTO VA1I' I COllld not you ge t a oOUDcil on

:rour 100at10n T- • have s;rndioate me.ting., but :rou w111

find that so .. of the landownuB aa1, "This 111 rq portion of

30. I.the 1 tneeaee. - 2«4.-

lend; I •• not gOing to bo to you people . I bo ht this

lead; I hold the title, and am going to rear as many oattle

•• loan; I have a ri~t to the general oommonage."

D. OB TS: Bo lon is it alnoe you have been try­

ing to get a ooullCl1 1'- Sll1C8 1921.

Tou youreeU have trled , - Ye.; at one time 1 asked

the hiet .atlYe COmmi8s10ner to oome up here; but we dld not

hear anythl further about It.

LUC1S: Dld he come 1'- Ye.; .e had a meetlng here

ln the ~OUlt Hou e, but we dld not hear any thin after that.

KAJOR R.O' : Bo lon ago 18 th t 1'- I think it

w •• 1921. (1921).

JlR. Loo1:;: When the Ohiet ative Commissioner came Y-

Ye ••

ATOR V III RX: But the m thes in lIatal, on the

whole, .re againat the oouncil By.tem, are they not?- lot

~ people; the people of the d18triot havs had meetlngs -

ohlef I etinge - elld they thou ht it ~as a good thing. We

hav had no oppo ltion at all, as far as I know, out here.

o Ho many pe~ple have you got ?- There

arll over 2,000 t :qayer. and men who are exempt •

• LUC ~. ~sa14 that the natlve dOllS not like to

part wl hi. oattle 1'- Ye ••

But :rOil hoe a few natives on European farms Who hsve

110 oattle 1'- !he:r hoe JIISt a few.

I thou ht :rOil said there were some it none?- There

are ome lt none, but very few.

If the natlve would go on to Luropean farms without

oattle - he and hi f mily - and he could get very much better

ege. thaD he get. DOW, dO YOIl think it .ould be pos81ble to

31. Iati.e witne .....

persuade aore native. to 81.e up their oattle an. go on to

~ope n f.r •• under those oonditlons T· I do not know whether

the far .er. ould ghe the. sore; if the natl" es had no oattle

on uropean far .. , I do not know whether theT would glve the.

more: JUt what I thlnk ia troubllng the nati"e '.-is now ls

to h .. e a fair return; aoat of ~ people do go out to work on

nel hbouri

town.

far •• , although tbeT do not get as muoh as in

hat do the, get when the, go fro. the looatlon to

or" T- Ll to 2;;,/ - a month.

And food T· Tes.

And thr,r 00 .. home e.ery nlght?- Yea, aome go home

tv elT nl£h t - tho .. who are nearest .

Io , tho .. few nat1ve. who are squatter. but have DO

oattle, do they get a~ higher wage. than the natives who have

cattle T- Tes , the, do.

hat wag. do the, get T- !bey get from 20/- to 25/-.

I a. talklng about squatters. Tou said there are a

few a tter. who have no oat tle; do th y get higher wages

t n the squattera who have oattle '·No, I have not oome ooross

8uoh 8 o.se.

Ea •• TaU llved all ,our life in thIs dlstrict?- Yes,

except en 1 n t to sobool .

Ea.e ,ou notlced ~ change in the attItude of the na­

tive to arda tbe whlte.; .1'. their feelings to arda the whlte •

•• good 8S th y used to be Y- 10, the, are not 60 good as

theT u ed to be.

bat 1 the differenoe T- I find that the d1fferenae

Is th t natives have be.n dieappointed In manT ways. When th87

•• re under the ritleh Government th-y wer e told they would be

treated Juat aa eDT other BubJJCt of the klng, and haye

equal 1'1 hts, t DO th 7 find that the7 are held beok.

'l'h 1 ~u la • that a4ur"17 afhot natlY", and the,' are

to14 th t h 7 aust DOl b. ex»eot to be reoognls.d a. full

ubJeot~ of tbe GoYernaent. I ~~lnk th t ls the basl. of

the .bole tro ble. b nat1ve. are d1.a»»01nted. The, thought

tbat en the, a ••• und.r tbe B~~tlsb Governsen+ the7 w.re

01 to. reoo,nt .. d a. full .ubJeots of tbe kin,; but no.

the7 are balng ... t a.a" to be tr.ated aa natlvea, and separate-

1,. D. <a .; .re the; .. reoognised aa t 11 ubJeotB of

.tatlons 'put tor th ... the kina T- .0; •• , *-1' • •• ~.I Ii .&1 ••• ' .. '" •••• that

th., •• re to b. taken 811 naUv •• , and would be u: •• »ta4, and

fr •• x •• pUon to tull olU&8n.,

aaa thare ever baen a 111_ ln the hletor, ot lIatal wh.n

a natlY. ba. had a vota T- Y.e l• I mo. at two.

And th 7 ar. both dad ,- Yea. I .. d. app11oat10n .

I 0 not know bOB -JW; but I bud no rep17, I 4id not h.ar a~-

thl after that.

are y.r7 IUIOl,ll ° the nati, ea. !he natlYe .a7., ... are lo,al

aubJeot. an4 a ar. or4.r.4 b7 i~. oalUDC; and h.n lt 00 ... to

IlII7tilla, .... re .a have to un1"~ and hay. to glve a hand, w' are

tr.at.d a1.,1. a a do,. • tl~. pa .. oftio., at tba statlon. ,

an in 111. tr.ilUl, and ~ oth~lr pla ••••

no VAI JI~:RI: Joa are 'au treated b, 70ur own

P o'pl. 1n author1t1 - b7 the oo~. table, lUItiu olert., 4 so

OD T- oonatabl •• now are q .1t. olyll. I know before the,

.er. "1'7 rude, but '.'7 h ... o~ang.d oonslderab17· • LOCI. : la there BJlIY 1.prOye •• Dt pnUal17 at pa ••

otfl0 •• and .ta\10B8; 1. lt be'1~r than lt wa. tlYe 7.ar. '80 T-

.~ tl~. wltn ••••• - 2447 -

'1- I no 10. an i. ovement; 80me of rq peopl e do not r.al.

it. bllt I do .

Do you th l nk that a. had an important effect on the

atti tude of the n.tiv._ '1_ Yea .

Are there aD7 other po l nts you wlah to mention on that

'1- I think thosa are the main poin§a; there may be minor

point. h ra and there.

ow , on your lend do you •• e .\lOh improvement in the

woy In hioh the land i_ bel ng workad agriculturally 1- Bo ,

ir; there 1_ no improvement _t all. wlth the exception of

the •• faw ye.r. when the Agricultural Department was good

enough to .and a demonstrator there.

And ha haa Improved thlngo '1 - He haa improved thm a

llttla hare and there. It io only those people who are inter ­

eated. Of oour.e, o.e of them ara agalnst It; thsy suspeot

t t the Gov.lnaent i. goin to take over thst land - the

de nstration plot .

hat 1. the ohief reason for that suspioion '1- It is

very diffioult to .a1, Slr . The natives sre always auspicious

of an1 new thlng that oome. slong, especial11 •• '.' " • •••• • •

when it 00 e. from the Go~ernaant , they think something is afoot .

1 ~ th~ think, If the Government propose to

do omethlng , that aoaathi ng 18 afo.t , as you put it '1- I think

i t ls eoa.e they are not represented; they do not kno how a~

t x or one1 oollected by the Government is expended - whether

it doell go to tha ben.fit of the m tive or not. They do not

reaU a ths t thingo are pllid :for out of the poll tax. In oonneo­

tion wlth any money colleoted by the Government they think the

Go~ rn e t urop.an is Jl1 t exploi tlng the ••

.ati,e itna. a •• -2448-

Wi th ,.ol1r ~eopla, ha.,. ,.011 been able to do a~thing to

eliminata that 8118pioion 1- I have tried, SIr, IlDtll I am tired.

I have tried to explain the position.

Ra,e ,.011 intera.ted 10uz people in the demonsjiator ?­

YeB, I hava tried. It Ie fOl1r yeara Binoe the demonstrator

haa baen theLe . 1 ve trIed to organi e farmers' meetIngs

twioa, bllt ~ effort. have fallen flat. ven at the last

agr lol11tlltal aho , when the agrlcl11tuxal inBpeotor came I1p and

tba e.an trator waa there, I organlbed a few who were Interes­

ted ollteide ar tha farmere' aa.oclatlon, bllt nothing happened.

Ie thare a nati,. far •• rB' a.soolation 1- Yea.

Ie it bBring ood resl11ta y- 1 fInd It Is merely

there in nalle; the,. do not do m,.thill& now.

DR. ha, e YOI1 no ahOd?- YeB, .. e hav e

agri 111tl1ral showe, they are well patronised, and people do

B%hiDit. What helpB I1B a great deal is the Bchool children

and teaohere .

S ATO V Alt :rII m;RIC ey started well, bllt It has

e,aporated?- It Is onlJ here and thera; we sea seleot offI­

cIal ,and 0 on.

Ro abol1t the Y0llDger generation, they are better edll-

a ted 1- Ye.t bl1t the p ople Ollt there arexreally hoetile.

hy 1- I r all,. do not know, they do not trouble

the sel,e8 to Etud,. tb posItIon, as to how It oome. about that

wa get the de onstrator.. They thInk the Government is only

paying tho.e .. n; the,. 40 not thInk It 18 the money that has

been paId b,. the natl,es.

ARD OIl: Perhaps another demonstrstor 0111d do

bet er?- nat Is ano ther reason. a hava a IIIIIn who aomas from

•• th. w1to •••••• -2&49-

the Tr.o.k.1; h. 1. not popular •

• LDC Could TO~ oot ask for one from atal;

would 1t not b • •• w.ll 1f 10U w.re to apply for ooe from

Batal T- 1 do not kDow; but th1s other ooe is not popular;

If 1 know thfot •

• found 1n some districts th t if the demonstrator

did no t belo to the d1 tr1ct he did not sllOceeO 1- W.ll .

h hi. elf 1. oot popular.

yOIl T-

You To~.elf f.ra .oae laod. do you not 1- Ye ••

Do TOU set the d,monatr tor to help TOU?- Yes.

Have you been getting 000 results on your lend "1- Yeti.

Ba. not the exa ple influenc.d the people Iound about

0. th Y do not seem to b .. interested; 1n !"ct thestl

earn have been oxceptioI1& 1 bod. ith orvp t,,11urea. I

th .ver sino. he oame Ltl baa 0nlT done better ono ••

fH wIOK AD. U. iD T 5 .10 pl •• , until

9.BO • •••• fO 0 Of, ALSO fLAY ITH.