AN INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE HELLER

Interviewer: Jewell Willhite

Oral History project

Endacott Society

University of Kansas

GEORGE HELLER

Bachelor of Music, Music Education, The University of Michigan, 1963

Master of Music, Music Education, The University of Michigan, 1969

Ph.D., Music and Music Education, The University of Michigan, 1973

Service at the University of Kansas

First hired at KU, 1973

Assistant Professor, Music Education and Music Therapy, 1973-1079

Associate Professor, Music Education and Music Therapy, 1979-1984

Professor, Music Education and Music Therapy, 1984-2002

Professor Emeritus, 2002-present

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AN INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE HELLER

Interviewer: Jewell Willhite

Q.: I am speaking with George Heller, who retired in 2002 as professor of music and music

therapy at the University of Kansas. We are in Lawrence, Kansas, on July 23, 2002.

Where were you born and in what year?

A: I was born in Ypsilanti, Michigan, Dec. 19, 1941.

Q.: What were your parents’ names?

A: My father’s name was Julius G. Heller and my mother’s name was Norma Smith Heller.

Q.: What was your parents’ educational background?

A: Both had gone to the University of Michigan. My father had left school his sophomore

or junior year and went to work as a design engineer. He was in mechanical engineering

at the University of Michigan. Mother got a diploma but not a degree from the

University of Michigan School of Nursing.

Q.: So your father was an engineer.

A: Actually, he was a design engineer. He had studied drafting as part of his engineering

curriculum, but he never graduated. So he took a job with a supplier to the Ford Motor

Company as a an industrial designer. Then he eventually joined the Ford Motor

Company and spent thirty odd years there as a designer.

Q.: Did you have brothers and sisters?

A: I had an older brother, who died when he was 10 of infantile paralysis, just a year before

the vaccine came out. My brother’s name was Frank. Then I have two younger sisters,

who are both living. Carol is two years younger than I. She is still living in Michigan.

Martha is seven years younger. She was born in 1948. She lives in California with my

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father. My mother died about 14 years ago.

Q.; Did you grow up in Ypsilanti?

A: No, I grew up in Dexter. Ypsilanti is about eight miles east of Ann Arbor and Dexter is

about eight miles west of Ann Arbor. Interestingly, it was on the same street because the

Huron River runs through all three places. So when I was born we lived on Huron River

Drive. Then when I grew up I was on Huron River Drive, but in Dexter.

Q.: Where did you attend elementary school?

A: In Dexter, Michigan.

Q.: Were your parents interested in music also?

A: My father played trumpet when he was in elementary school. But he never pursued it

beyond that. My mother was what I guess you’d call to a fair to middlin’ Protestant

Church musician. She played the piano and sang, that sort of thing.

Q.: Did you start music lessons as a child?

A: Oh, yes. I started first on piano. Then when I was in the fifth grade, they had a band

program and I started that. When I was in high school I played in the band and sang in

the choir.

Q.: What did you play in the band?

A: I started out as a trumpet player. Then when I got in junior high school, they needed

tuba players, so I switched from trumpet to tuba.

Q.: You probably marched and made formations at football games, all that good stuff.

A: Oh, yes, I did all that good stuff.

Q.: Where did you attend junior high and high school?

A: Also in Dexter. It was all really one school. The elementary, the junior high and the

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high school were all on the same property. They were separated a little bit. Then later

on they all got their own buildings. But when I went there you moved from one end of

the building to the other.

Q.: This was a fairly small school, wasn’t it?

A: Yes, there were about 1,500 people in the town. We lived about eight miles outside of

town. There were 80 people in my graduating class, and that was the largest class in the

history of the school.

Q.: You said you were in the band and sang in the choir. Did you go to music contests?

A: Oh, sure, with the band and choir. I never did solo or play in ensemble contests.

Q.; Did you have influential teachers from those days?

A: Oh, yes. The most influential one was my piano teacher. I got to see her again this year

after about 40 years. She had moved to Florida and I had sort of lost track of her. Then

about three or four years ago she sent me a short letter saying what she was doing. She

sent it to me in care of the University of Michigan Alumni Association. And they

forwarded it. They had my current address. So we corresponded for a couple years.

Then I had a chance to go to Florida this year, so I said as long as we were there could we

have a visit. So we did and that was very nice.

Q.: Did she teach you piano from grade school through high school?

A: Oh, yes. She was really the one who gave me my music foundation.

Q.: What was her name?

A: He name was Lillian Vaughn.

Q.: Were you involved in any other extracurricular activities in high school?

A: Yes, I played basketball and I ran track and I had the lead in the school play. I was

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president of my sophomore class. When you have a small school like that, people have

to kind of double up on things to make it work.

Q.: When did you graduate?

A: 1959.

Q.: Did you have summer jobs while you were in high school?

A: Yes, mowing lawns. That was my summer job.

Q.: Was it always assumed that you would go to college?

A: Oh, yes. Mother and Dad were both very much in favor of that.

Q.: So you went to college right out of high school.

A: Yes, I did. Right out of high school, because I started that summer.

Q.: Where did you go for your undergraduate work?

A: The University of Michigan, which was only 15 miles away.

Q.: So that’s probably why you chose that school.

A: Well, I did mainly because of the music. It has a fabulous music school. When I was a

junior in high school, I had started studying with one of the professors there.

Q.: In piano?

A: No, in tuba. I had gone to concerts there, etc. It would be much like growing up in

rural Eudora and coming to KU for the concerts and studying with one of the faculty

here. In fact, there are a lot of parallels between the situation where I grew up and the

situation here.

Q.: So your major was music education, is that right?

A: Right. I started out as a wind instrument major. I thought I was going to be a

professional tuba player. Then our home ec. teacher in high school was married to a

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man who was doing a doctorate in music education at the University of Michigan. He

came out to pick up his wife from work one day. I was in the band room playing. His

wife wasn’t ready, so he walked down to the band room. He asked me what I was doing,

and I told him. So we got to be really good friends. He gave me some really good

advice. Then when I got on campus, one day I met him. He said, “George, we need to

talk.”

I said, “Fine.” So we sat down in front of the band building.

He said, “George, do you know how many people actually make their living

playing tuba in the United States?”

I said, “Gee, no. I hadn’t even given it a thought.”

He said, “Maybe a dozen.” He said, “Wanting to be the world’s greatest tuba

player is a laudable goal, but you might want to look for something a little more

practical.”

So I thought about it for a year and then I changed from tuba wind instrument

major to music education.

Q.: You were living at home then, I suppose.

A: No, I went to campus. I had done quite well in high school. And I always was a real

good tester. My father worked for Ford Motor Company at that point. They had Ford

Motor Company Fund which was designated for sons and daughters of Ford employees.

I took the test and did really well on it. So I got a Ford Motor Company Fund

Scholarship, which paid for room, board, and tuition. So I just went to Ann Arbor and

moved into the dorm. It was a whole different time. I remember the first check I ever

wrote. It was for $143 dollars. That was for tuition. Room, board and tuition for one

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semester was something like $850. They used to pay us in cash at the administration

building. You had to show them your certificate and they would hand you $850 in cash.

I had never seen so much money in my whole life. And I stuck it in my pocket and

kept my hand around it. I walked and it was about three blocks to the bank. All the

way there I was thinking if somebody holds me up, I’m going to say, “Shoot me. I’m

not worth $850.”

Q.: That surely was a different time. The University of Michigan was quite a large school,

wasn’t it?

A: Oh, yes. Their tuition now is over $20,000 a year.

Q.: Did you have any jobs while you were in college?

A: Yes, I had a bunch of jobs. I taught piano lessons. I had a church choir and organ job.

And I played piano in a dance band. The church allowed me to use their Sunday School

rooms to give piano lessons. So I would go to this church on Friday and give piano

lessons from about 4 o’clock to about 7 o’clock with kids every half hour. Then I would

have a dance job from 8 o’clock to midnight or later sometimes. Then all day Saturday I

would teach. Then Sunday morning I would play a service. Then Sunday afternoon I

would do my homework and I would just kind of collapse in a heap. Monday morning

was pretty easy. It was one of those times when I was glad to see Monday morning

come, because Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday were pretty easy. All I had

to do was practice and go to class.

Q.: Were you in musical groups as far as the college was concerned?

A: I was in the band and choirs. Then I was in the dance band.

Q.: What did you call yourselves?

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A: I think we just called ourselves Bob Brigson and His Band. Bob was the trumpet player.

It was nothing fancy. We played for high school proms, fraternity dances, etc.

Q.: Did you have honors in college?

AA; Yes, I graduated with honors. I won the Theodore Presser Award, which was given to

the outstanding music student.

Q.: When did you graduate?

A: I graduated in 1963. Music Education was just a simple four-year program back then,

120 hours and you were out. That summer I started my master’s program with a bunch

of hours. Then that fall I started teaching in Petersburg, Michigan. Of course the fall of

‘63 was the Kennedy assassination. I was sitting in a study hall. Everybody remembers

where they were. It was November 22, 1963. I was sitting in a study hall with about

100 kids. The principal came on the P.A. system and said something had happened that

we needed to listen to. He turned the radio on and we all just sat there and listened.

So I taught in Petersburg, Michigan, for that year. I was the music teacher for

the whole school. It was even smaller than Dexter. They had 270 kids in one building.

That was K through 12. We had a staff of 17 teachers at the high school. That year

nine of us were first-year teachers. The principal had only been there a year or two.

Q.: Did you teach vocal music?

A: I taught vocal music and instrumental music in elementary, junior high and high school.

I did it all.

Q.: That’s a big job.

A: Yes, it really was. But it was fun. I really enjoyed having to do all those different

things. I had sort of switched my program as an undergraduate. My first two years I

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was in instrumental music exclusively. Then my last two years I went into what is

called general music, where you did both vocal and instrumental. With my piano

background and my singing experience I couldn’t give either one up. I’ve had that

problem my whole life up to the present moment. Also, I didn’t want to start out as

somebody’s assistant or at a junior high school and work my way up. So this job came

open, I interviewed and it went very well and they hired me. I just had a really great

time. I was single. I had an apartment three blocks from the school. It was a furnished

apartment. A doctor’s wife–her doctor husband had died–he had an office attached to

the house. So she just made a little four-room apartment out of it. She was very

musical and played in the church and all that stuff. Mrs. Tieneveri, I’ll never forget

her. At night I would come home late, 6:30 or 7 o’clock sometimes. The kitchen of my

apartment was right next to the living room of her house. I would go and kind of bang

some plates around and stuff and pretend like I was getting ready for dinner. Then I

would stop and about two minutes later there would be a knock on the door that

connected the two. Mrs. Tieneveri would say, “I still have some things left from dinner,

if you wouldn’t mind.”

“Oh, Mrs. Tieneveri, I would love it.” She was a really great cook. That was

$55 a month for a furnished apartment. That was good. The whole town was like that.

The school was the center of the town. It was the biggest thing in town. So when I

wanted concert programs made, I went to the principal and said, “How do I do this?”

He said, “You get all your information and take it down to the local newspaper.

He prints them.” So I had professionally printed programs for my little school. When

Friday night came and we did the concert, practically the whole town was there because

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there was nothing else to do in that town. It was just wonderful. When I walked into

the barber shop to get my hair cut and they would ask who I was, when I told them it

was like Roy Williams walking in the barber shop. The school was the center of town.

It was really a unique experience. I got a lot out of it. I made some lifelong friends. It

was wonderful.

Q.: How long did you say you taught there?

A: I was there one year. The problem was that it was rural and isolated. The kids just had

no cultural background and their families didn’t either. They were wonderful kids and

wonderful people. But their aspirations musically and intellectually were not very great.

At that time I finally decided that I wanted to be a band director in high school. So I

got a job in Haslett, Michigan, that was just all band. That was elementary school,

junior high and high school bands. That was my whole job.

Q.: I suppose you took kids to music contests and marched in parades, that kind of stuff.

A: Oh, yes. I did the whole band thing.

Q.: How long were you at Haslett?

A: I was at Haslett for two years. Then the Vietnam War caught up with me.

Q.: Did you get drafted?

A: Not really. I got a notice and I ran to Chicago and auditioned for the Fifth Army Band.

I came back and I volunteered. I was sort of a forced volunteer, I guess you’d call it.

At that time they were drafting 66,000 men a month.

Q.: Did you get to audition for the band before you decided to volunteer?

A: Right. They gave you a guarantee. I later found out it was just a one-year guarantee.

So I had to enlist for three years. One year was guaranteed as a band assignment but the

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other two years were up for grabs, as far as whatever they wanted. If I had just waited

for the draft, I would have had two years instead of three and been up for grabs. It

worked out okay because I got good assignments. But at that time there were five bands

in Vietnam.

Q.: I didn’t know they had bands over there.

A: Oh, yes. They were right on the firing line, a lot of them. Many of them got over there

and the commander just decided he didn’t need a band and he needed more infantry men.

So he just dissolved the band and gave them all rifles and sent them up to the line. It

was a hard time. This was 1966.

Q.: Were you ever overseas anywhere?

A: Yes. I got my guarantee and went to Chicago and played with the Fifth Army Band.

That was wonderful experience.

Q.: Where does an Army Band play in the states? Did you play for soldiers in camps?

A: We were at Fort Sheridan, which is on the North Side of Chicago. Basically, we played

for parades in Chicago. Mayor Daly was in Chicago and LBJ was in the White House.

Every time Mayor Daly wanted a band, he called the White House and said, “Give me a

band.” The buses rolled and we were there.

Q.: You were playing tuba, I suppose.

A: Right. That was mostly what we did in the summer. But then in the winter time we

played concerts and we made recordings and we had solos and ensembles and small

groups. We basically played high schools in the area and did PR work for the Army.

Q.: Kind of like recruiting.

A: It was a wonderful band. The military was drafting 66,000 men a month. The Fifth

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Army drew from Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, and Iowa. Those were all Big

Ten schools, who all had fabulous band programs. So they got the cream of the crop.

Anybody who wasn’t married and had a low draft number ended up in that band. There

were some spectacular players. It was one of the finest groups I have played in during

my life. We had composers come in and bring their music and record it, because we

could read through a piece two or three times and have it ready for a performance. It

was a spectacular group.

Q.: Did you have to go through basic training?

A: Yes. Eight weeks of my life at Fort Knox, Kentucky. That was an interesting

experience.

Q.: You said you were with The Fiffth Army Band in Chicago for one year. Then what

happened?

A: Then my orders came down, as they always did for everybody at the end of their year.

Fortunately, mine read Heidelberg, Germany. So I was in the United States Army Band,

Europe for two years. The first year I was just a tuba player. Then I started doing

little things to help out. I finally ended up as staff band arranger and assistant conductor

of that band.

Q.: Did you play for the Army men and for parades?

A: The day I got there we played for what they called a beer tent. These little cities all over

Germany were hundreds of years old. Their fire department or their whatever would

have an anniversary and it would usually be like their 400th

anniversary or their 500th

anniversary. The Army would always provide a band for that for public relations. So

we would go to this little bitty town and this huge tent would be set up by the brewing

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company. Every city in Germany has its own beer. So the brewery would set up this

huge tent and they would have bratwurst and all kinds of stuff and, of course, beer. And

we would play the job. We played German music, polkas and stuff like that. They

would eat and drink and then after we were done we would eat and drink too. So it was

really tough duty. Then once a month we had to play for ceremonies on the post when

they gave their awards and medals. Sometimes we would play for other groups who

didn’t have bands attached to them. We were the band for the headquarters of the

United States Army in Europe. We got all the choice jobs.

Q.: Did you get to travel some in Europe?

A: Oh, yes, a lot. I would take a three-day pass and go. Usually the local American

Express office in Heidelberg catered to the Army people, so they knew what our needs

were and what our abilities were. So I would go in and show them I had a three-day

pass, they would put together a tour. I went to Venice and of course all over Germany.

We actually played in France. NATO had a gig honoring Charles DeGaul. We got to

march down the Champs d’ Elysees. Then we had a gig in Mons, Belgium, that I

remember. Then we had a gig in Harstad, Norway. It was the Midnight Sun Festival.

They called and asked if we were available and we went up there. I took a week’s leave

after that because my grandmother was born about 200 miles north of there. So I wrote

to Mother and said, “I am going to be in the north of Norway and I am going to take a

week off. Somehow, I want to see grandma’s people.” So Mother called and found

some relative who spoke English. My grandmother’s brother was still living. He was

really in pretty good health. He was much younger than she was. So I was the first of

her descendants to go back to that city. That was just a wonderful experience. Uncle

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Franz took me out on the fjord in his boat. We dropped a net, etc. The whole family

went together. I think what happened was the women just all took turns knitting me this

beautiful sweater. So it was really a spectacular experience. And I was up there the last

week of June and the first week of July, so at 3 a.m. in the morning it was just like this

(daylight).

Q.: This was quite far north in Norway then.

A: Oh, yes, 250 miles north of the Arctic Circle, what they call the North Cape region. The

sun never ever did set the whole week I was there.

Q.: It must have been awfully cold.

A: No, it was in the summer time, but not as warm as here. It was like Michigan with highs

in the 70s and lows in the 50s.

Q.: So you were in the Army three years. When you came back, what did you do?

A: While I was in the Army, I did some course work from the University of Maryland. The

University of Maryland had extensions with all the services. I took some languages.

Before I went in the Army when I was teaching at Haslett, it was near East Lansing, so I

started a master’s degree at Michigan State. I had done some work by correspondence

with them. When I got out, I decided I wanted to go back to the University of Michigan.

They always say you should go to a different school for your graduate work, but I

wasn’t very happy with Michigan State. So I went back to Michigan and finished up my

master’s degree.

Q.: Was that also in music education?

A: Right. I got out of the service in January of 1969. I got an early out because of my

educational situation. So I was really in only about two years and ten months. Then I

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moved back home, because I had no money at that point. I spent the spring at the

University of Michigan going full time working on my master’s. Then I went in the

summer full time and finished up my master’s degree. Then in the fall of 1969 I started

teaching at Farmington, Michigan.

Q.: While you were at the University of Michigan, this was the time when there was a lot of

trouble at KU. Was this sort of thing going on at that campus too?

A: There was, and it was very heavy duty because the people who were involved in the

resistence were very bright people. One of them was Tom Hayden, who was married to

Jane Fonda. I think he was the head of the SDS at that point. The University of

Michigan was very, very fortunate because their president–they don’t have a chancellor,

they have a president–was Robin Fleming. His academic specialty was labor relations.

He just handled that whole situation beautifully. He let the kids come into his house and

treated them like they were adults. He listened to everything they said. He said,

“Those are certainly problems and we will see what we can do to fix them.” The biggest

problem there was the county sheriff, who wanted to bust heads and get political

recognition. So the university was always having to tell the sheriff, “Please don’t hurt

our kids. We will get through this.” To my knowledge, they got through it with no

problem at all.

I was in the music school, and the music school is just different than any school

on campus. We all, even the African-American kids, thought, “You’re right. We really

should be out there. But, gosh, we’ve got to practice.” We wished we were out in the

streets, but by them we were so programmed to get ready for our lesson and get ready for

our performance. I sort of regret that. I would have been a better person if I had gone

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out there and gotten involved in some of that stuff. I spent the war in the practice room.

Q.: When you get a master’s in music, do you write a thesis or do you just do a performance?

A: In Music Education in general you write a thesis. That’s what I did.

Q.: What did you write about?

A: I did a catalog of music for wind and percussion, instrumental small ensembles. I just

investigated everything that was available. At that time there was a move in music

education to emphasize small group instruction. The biggest problem was that nobody

knew the literature because everybody had come up through the system playing in large

ensembles, in bands, choirs, and orchestras. So I thought, “That problem is pretty easily

solved.” It wasn’t as easily solved as I thought. Once I got into it, it turned out to be a

huge 520-page document, which I eventually got published as a book by the Music

Educators National Conference. That had kind of a happy ending. I put everything on

four by six cards. I just had tons of those cards.

Q.: Without a computer, that would be hard to do.

A: Yes. Basically, what I did would be real easy today. I put data on cards and sorted

them into piles and then sat down and typed.

Q.: Were you married at this time?

A: No. I finished my master’s in the fall of 1969. Then I went to Farmington, Michigan,

which is a suburb of Detroit. I was really in the big time then. I was in a high school

that had 1,500 kids in three grades.

Q.: Were you a band instructor?

A: When I went there I wanted to be the band instructor because I wanted a really big band

in a really big school. That’s what they had. When I got there they said, “We have two

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other things that we need for you to do. We have an orchestra and a music appreciation

class.”

I said, “Fine. I’ll do that,” because I wanted that band. I was really hustling to

get that job. So I did. The interesting thing was that as it turned out, the band was a lot

of work, as high school bands are. In a school that size in that situation they were just

always playing and marching and doing things. It was a lot of work. The orchestra was

really just five kids, who played strings. The music appreciation class was listening to

records.

They had no study hall in this high school. So music appreciation was one of

those things where the counselors would say, “Well, you’ve taken all the shop courses we

have. You’ve taken all the typing classes we have. Why don’t you take music

appreciation?” Most of the kids were that way. Then I had one or two kids who were

just wanting to learn more about music. So that made it interesting. As the first year

went by, I found that I enjoyed those two things more than what I had really wanted to

do, work with the bands. I built the orchestra up really quickly. The second semester

we had 10 and the following fall we had 20. And they were really playing quite well,

well enough that we could be the pit group for the school musical. Before that, they had

had to bring in mercenaries in order to do the school musical. By just my second year

we had enough kids and they played well enough to do that. I said at the time I’d

probably still be in the public schools if it was all orchestra instead of all bands.

Orchestra kids are just wonderful kids. They come from families who really care about

music. There is no marching and no uniforms and no fund raising. And it is all

indoors.

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Q.: Now that I think about it, I know that the band here is always selling fruit or something.

A: In the orchestra, they just come in and play. And the music is really good, of course. It

is all first-rate music. And the music appreciation class really excited me too because I

had to apply everything I had learned at the university, including graduate school, on a

very sophisticated level. I had to figure out how to teach that to people who really didn’t

want to be there. They had just filled their quota of shop classes. And it was really an

interesting problem and an interesting challenge. I had some success with it. And I

realized that with that and the orchestra and band experience the excitement and pizzazz

of the band got me into the business. But once I was in it, what really interested me was

the music itself and the kids, and not all this other folderol, the trips and the uniforms and

the games and that stuff. That’s when I started thinking seriously about music in higher

education. Because I really wanted to figure out how the thing works, how kids work.

Q.: How long were you at Farmington?

A: Two years. Then I got accepted in the doctoral program at the University of Michigan.

And I got married.

Q.: Was she a student there also?

A: No. She was a graduate of the University of Michigan. She was a nurse. My sister

was a graduate of Michigan and a nurse. They were working on the floor of the hospital

together. That’s how I met her. My sister set us up for a date. That must have been in

the fall of 1970 because we were married in January of 1971. Then I got my acceptance

in May of 1971. Then I started the doctoral program in the summer of 1971. So things

moved fast.

Q.: What is her name?

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A: Her name was Lynn Alberry. We were married for 12 years and got divorced in 1983.

Q.: Who was your major professor for your Ph.D.?

A: My major professor was a man by the name of Emil Holtz. He was the head of the

Music Education Department. He guided my dissertation and was my advisor.

Q.: What were you writing your dissertation about this time?

A: This time I took a whole different area. I got interested in historical research. I had

done a project in one of my classes about the music of Mexico. I had found this guy

who was teaching music to the Aztecs in 1520. So I went in to my advisor and I said,

“Emil, I found a topic.”

He said, “Well, good.”

I said, “It’s the first music teacher in America.”

He said, “Oh, really. Who is it?”

I said, “Pedro de Gante, Mexico City, 1520.

He said, “There were people here before the Spaniards.” It didn’t even occur to

me. Finally my topic ended up being “Music Education in the Valley of Mexico During

the 16th

Century.” So I started out with the Aztecs and how they taught music and

learned music. And then the Spanish came in 1519 and then de Gante came in 1520.

He was the main character in my thesis. He died in 1572. The period was the whole

16th

century, but he was the star of the show.

Q.: Were you teaching during this time? Some people teach while they are getting their

Ph.D.s.

A: No, I got my acceptance in the spring of 1971. I was married in January. My wife was

working full time as a nurse. And I had the G.I. Bill and I also got an assistantship,

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which really paid quite handsomely. In fact, in my last year at the University of

Michigan, with my assistantship and my G.I. Bill, I made more than I made in my first

year of teaching at KU. So with her working, we actually lived pretty well.

Q.: Were you involved in musical groups while you were doing your doctorate?

A: No, I really didn’t have time. I played with some brass ensembles.

Q.: When did you get your Ph.D.?

A: 1973.

Q.: Then what did you do?

A: Actually, I came here before I got my degree. I finished in December of 1973 and I

started here in August of 1973.

Q.: How did you happen to come here?

A: Well, it’s kind of an interesting story. When I got near the end of my program, I signed

up with the placement service and they had me fill out all the forms and I would get these

notices. I’ll never forget the first one. It was Appalachia State University in Boone,

North Carolina. So I got all excited and looked it up on the map. I waited and waited.

Nothing. Then the second was the University of Maine in Orino, Maine. I looked it up

on the map and I got all excited about Maine and I sent my stuff off. Nothing. By

about the first of June I had gotten a few letters of interest, but I hadn’t got any

interviews. I was getting quite upset. So I went in to see the dean, Allen P. Britten I

said, “What do I need to do? I’ve done everything you guys asked me to do. Now I

have one request of you. Help me find a job.” So he looked over my stuff and saw my

dissertation topic. He was a Mexican music buff. So he got real excited about that. So

we spent about an hour talking about Mexican music and he told me all the different

20

aspects of Mexican music. I was getting so mad. By then I had a daughter and I was

expected to have a job.

He said, “Everything is in order. You’ve got all good stuff. All I can tell you is

you are probably scaring the hell out of people because you’ve got too much stuff on

your transcript and resume. But sooner or later someone will find you. You will be

fine.”

I walked out and thought, “This is bull.” All we did was talk about Mexican

music and he told me everything was going to be fine. I had this wife and this kid and

my G.I. Bill was running out. In the outer office was the head of one of the departments.

I think it was the music history department. He had sat there for an hour because Allen

had gotten carried away with Mexican music. He was just angered and steamed. I got

home and told my wife what had happened. She was upset and I was upset.

About two days later the phone rang and it was Allen, the dean. He said, “I just

got this call from George Duerksen at the University of Kansas. I think you ought to call

him.” That’s all he said. He gave me the number and I called.

George said, “Yes, we are looking for a music ed professor. We’d like to have

you come out for an interview.”

So I came out for an interview and they offered me the job on the spot. This was

like July 15. I was really getting nervous at this point. So we bought a house on 27th

Street, a three-bedroom ranch with an attached garage and a full basement for $23,500.

The university offered me the handsome salary of $10,500. I said, “Yes, yes,” and we

signed up.

Q.: What was your daughter’s name?

21

A: Jennifer. She was born in October of 1971. So that was quite a year. I got married in

January, quit my job in May, started my doctoral program in June, had a baby in October.

When I came to KU my second year here she was three and I was 33. She was just

learning to talk. She told everybody, “I’m free and my dad’s firty-free.”

Q.: Where was Music education located? Was that in Murphy?

A: No, we were in the School of Education at that point in Baily Hall. I was on the third

floor of Baily Hall for 27 of my 29 years.

Q.: What classes have you taught while you have been at KU?

A: I’ve taught a wide range of classes. Because of my general interest, my primary

undergraduate class was Secondary General Music. Because of my historical interest,

my primary master’s level class was History of Music Education. Then my primary

doctoral class was Seminar in Historical Research Methods. Then I have taught a

variety of things. Because of my general interest I knew a little bit about a lot of things

so I taught World Music. I had gotten interested in World Music while I was in the

service. I had traveled quite extensively and I had a good collection of music from

around the world. So I taught World Music. That was my other undergraduate course

that I taught a lot of. At the master’s level I taught all kinds of things, Administration,

Aesthetics, just whatever they needed teaching. Sometimes at the undergraduate level I

also taught String Methods. And I taught Guitar for a while, just kind of whatever

needed teaching. But the Secondary General Methods and the World Music class and

the History of Music Ed at the master’s level and the Historical Research Seminar at the

doctoral level were what you might call my meat and potatoes classes.

Q.: Were you playing in musical groups while you were here at KU?

22

A: I played in the town band for a couple of years.

Q.: So you no longer play music.

A: I haven’t played for a long time, maybe 20 years.

Q.: You said you have had a book published, Ensemble Music for Wind and Percussion

Instruments from your thesis. Have you written any other books?

A: Yes, I’ve had three bibliographies of historical research published, one on the historical

research of music therapy and then a bibliography of historical research in music

education and then a chronology of music education. Then in 1995 I did a book on

Charles Leonard, who was a famous music educator at the University of Illinois from

1950 to 1985. I’m working on a book right now that I started on my 1995 sabbatical,

which is just a broad, general survey of the history of music education.

Q.: You said you had a sabbatical in 1995. Had you had some before that?

A: Oh, yes. I had two before that.

Q.: Where did you go?

A: My first one I stayed here because my children were quite young.

Q.: So you’ve had other children while you were here.

A: Yes. In 1974 David was born. So I had two kids. My first sabbatical was in 1980, so

David was six and Jenny was nine and Lynn was working full time. So what I did was

the history of music education in Kansas. I would take day trips, mostly to the

Historical Society in Topeka. That didn’t result in a book but in a series of articles.

Mostly in Kansas publications but also a couple in national publications. Then when

they produced the New Grove Dictionary of American Music in 1986 I got an article or

two in there about Kansas music educators. So that turned out to be pretty successful.

23

Then my second sabbatical in 1987 or thereabouts was on World Music, I think. That

likewise resulted in a series of articles.

Q.: So you tended to stay here for your sabbaticals and write.

A: Right. Then my third sabbatical was when I did Charlie Leonard. That was in 1987

because he retired in 1985. He called me and said people at the University of Illinois

were not dealing with his life and work properly and would I be interested in doing it. I

had had Charlie as a teacher at the University of Michigan. He had come up for the

summer. I took a class that he taught. I had known him at conventions and such.

Q.: Was he a musician?

A: He was a music educator at the University of Illinois, a really important person in the

middle of the 20th

century. He taught there from 1950 to 1985. In 1987 I had my

second sabbatical and worked on the book. I took trips to Illinois. By that time I had

been divorced. Jennifer would have been 16 and David would have been 13. I had

joint custody, so I only saw them half time. If I wanted to go away for a week, Lynn

would take them for a week. Normally we split the week in half. I would have three or

four days and she would have three or four days. I went down to Oklahoma where

Charlie was born. He graduated from the University of Oklahoma and taught at Duncan,

Oklahoma. I interviewed people who had known him. I found one person who was his

age and grew up with him in high school. She didn’t think much of him. Then I found

a woman in Duncan, who was a freshman in high school when he taught there. He was

21 years old in his first year of teaching. This woman is now about 60 years old. And

she was still in love with Mr. Leonard. Their picture was in the yearbook. He was

playing the piano and she was singing. It was the cutest thing. So I did that in 1987.

24

That book was published in 1995. So it was an eight-year project. It was a lot of work

but it was a lot of fun too. Somebody asked me once, “Weren’t there any famous music

educators in California or Hawaii? To go to Oklahoma, what is that?” But I really

enjoyed that project. It turned out well and I got it published. Then my third

sabbatical was in 1995. That’s when I started this book that I am working on right now.

It’s turning out to be a seven or eight-year project too. I can’t crank them out the way

that some people do.

Q.: So you weren’t involved with directing musical groups here, just teaching?

A: Right.

Q.; Did you have honors at KU?

A: I had research grants and that sort of thing.

Q.: Do you have outstanding former students who have gone on to greater things?

A: Yes. Probably my prize student was Al Solomon, who did a dissertation with me in

1984. He was a music therapy student and he did a history of the National Association

for Music Therapy. He’s gone on to much greater glory. He’s now dean of the Crane

School of Music at the State University of New York - Potsdam, which is one of the

premier music schools in the whole state of New York. Another one of my students, Bill

Davis, is head of the music department at Colorado State University. He is also in music

therapy. Then Fumiko Shiraishi, who is a Japanese student who came here to study, did

a biography of a famous music educator. She’s back in Japan now. She’s head of the

music ed. department of her school, Ewati University. There are a bunch of others. It’s

been a good experience. The students have just been wonderful. They’ve all been very

bright and very motivated and gone on to do wonderful things. I don’t consider them

25

my students so much. They passed through my classroom. Some of them wrote

dissertations under my guidance. It was wonderful to be associated with people like

that. My dream of teaching in higher education really came true at KU. It’s the only

job I’ve ever had in higher education. I had three public school music jobs and then

came here in 1973.

Q.: Have you been on university committees?

A: Dozens.

Q.: Any you specifically remember and would like to mention?

A: The ones that I remember I remember for the people who were on them and the good

times we had outside of the business that we did. When we were in the School of

Education we had some wonderful people, Dick Tracy is one who comes to mind. I’m

sure no one ever says a good thing about committee work. But there were some good

things and it was the people. But oh my, committee work is the bane of the university.

It really is.

Q.: Most people seem to feel that way.

A: It’s demoralizing and it drags you down. If they could do away with that they would

improve life immensely. I served on several search committees and a couple of dean

search committees. I served on curriculum committees and on admissions and standards

committees. I can’t say that any of them ever did anything really important.

Q.: Do you belong to professional organizations, I suppose?

A: Oh, yes. A dozen of them. They are in my vita. My main groups are the Kansas

Music Educators and the Music Educators National Conference. I belong to The

College Music Society, the Society for Ethnomusicology and the Society for American

26

Music.

Q.: Have you held offices in any of these?

A: I was the founder and first chair of the Historical Research Interest Group of the Music

Educators National Conference. I was the historian for the Kansas Music Educators for

a long period of time from the late ‘70s into the ‘80s. I am currently the archivist for the

College Music Society. I suppose there have been others but I can’t really remember.

Q.: Have you remarried?

A: Yes. I was divorced in August of 1983. I had joint custody of my two children. Then

in 1985 a KU alum and good friend came to town and said, “We just had a person resign

at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. We need somebody who can just

step in and do graduate-level work who would have the credentials and be active in

publishing.”

I said, “Jim, I have just finished up a whole bunch of doctoral students and I

haven’t started a bunch yet. I’ve been divorced and am sort of at loose ends. I think I

need a change of scenery.” So I went to the University of North Carolina at Greensboro

for a year. I took a year’s appointment as a visiting professor. Then in November I met

Judy at a conference. It was just a brief meeting. We shook hands and said, “Hi” and

“Goodbye.” Then in February Jim just kind of took the bull by the horns. He asked me

to present a public lecture and he invited Judy to the lecture. We went out for drinks

afterward and one thing led to another.

Q.: Was she on the faculty there?

A: She was teaching at one of the local high schools and working with student teachers from

the university. She had taught at the university when the head of the music ed.

27

department took a sabbatical overseas.

Q.: So she was involved in music too.

A: Right. She was a high school choral music teacher and worked with the university

music ed. department. That’s how Jim knew her. The head of the department was a

great lady, Barbara Bair. Judy had asked her–she had heard about me being single–and

Barbara said, “No, no. I don’t do that.” But Jim did do that. He kind of set us up.

That was February 1986. So we dated until I left there in June. We had four months

together and really got committed to each other. Then we had a long distance

relationship, writing and flying back and forth. We spent a lot of money on phone calls

and airline trips and even postage, because we wrote every single day. Then we were

married over spring break of 1987. I flew out there and the kids flew out there. We had

a quick honeymoon. Then I came back and finished the semester and she finished the

semester there. Then she moved with her son, Scott Thompson, who was a year older

than my daughter. He was a junior in high school. She brought him to Kansas to finish

his senior year. We kid about that. We reversed the usual thing. We got married and

then we lived together. We were married in March and didn’t live together until June.

Q.: Has she been employed in Lawrence?

A: She worked as a music teacher for one year. She decided at that point that she really

wanted to get out of school music teaching. But when she came was the year Lew

Tilford retired from Lawrence High. Pam Bushouse had decided she wanted to give it a

whirl. So she took the high school job. This all happened pretty late in the summer,

July or early August. When Judy came to town and got settled, they were just desperate.

Lew Tilford called her for the position at West Junior High where Pam had been.

28

Number one, they said, “We will make it a half-time position. We just need somebody

to do the top choir and second and third choir. We will get somebody else to fill the rest

of the job. It is really important because Pam did a really great job. We don’t want to

see that all evaporate.” That didn’t really sell Judy. The second thing he said was, “If

you don’t take this job, we are going to have to hire a first-year teacher.”

Judy said, “Oh, no. You can’t hire a first-year teacher to do a job like that.”

Against her better judgement, she always said, she took that job. Then at the end of the

year Pam decided she didn’t want to be a high school choral director. So she took the

job back. That was fine with Judy. Long ago she had decided that junior high was not

her favorite age. So then she worked for the Endowment Association. She was Jim

Martin’s secretary from 8/8/88 to 9/9/99. Now she does interior decoration.

Q.: Have you been involved in community activities here in Lawrence?

A: Mainly musical activities. I sing with the Trinity Episcopal Church choir. I have done

that for a number of years. I am involved in local politics. I am vice chair of the

Douglas County Democratic Party. I’m also the precinct chair for this area of town.

Q.: What are you doing in retirement or plan to do?

A: Well, that’s another interesting story. Last year and this year we had a visiting

professorship appointment at the University of Miami for the second semester. I did

phased retirement and started in 1997. I did 50 percent time. I did it by teaching full

time in the fall and then taking the springs off.

Q.: But you didn’t really take it off.

A: The first three years I took it off and went to Boston and did research for my book, which

29

was really a luxury. I enjoyed it very much. But then the fourth year they called me

from the University of Miami and said they had a failed search. They had somebody to

take the fall semester but they needed somebody to take the spring. I asked Judy if she

wanted to spend the spring in Miami and she said yes. So I asked for three days to think

it over but we made the decision right on the spot. So we did that in 2001 and 2002.

They had a failed search again and the guy was willing to do it in the fall again. So I

said sure and it was even better this time. Well, I left Miami on the 8th

of May and

visited some friends on the way home. We got here on the 12th

and I started having

shortness of breath. I had a bunch of retirement parties to go to and the graduation

exercises. During the whole week I got more short of breath. I’ve had asthma and flu

and I just thought, “It’s one of those things,” except that it didn’t get any better. Usually

you hit a crisis period and then everything kind of starts getting better. Well, I had an

open house retirement party at the university on the 16th

of May. Then the department

took me out to dinner the 17th

of May. Then the School of Fine Arts Convocation was

the 18th

of May. I led the singing of the Alma Mater for that. Every time I was getting

shorter and shorter of breath. It was getting harder and harder. On the 19th

I worked at

commencement. That was a Sunday. It was really tough and I was really getting sick.

Just short of breath. Well, Monday morning, the 20th

, I got up and I couldn’t walk those

two stairs. So I called Dr. Bruner and he said, “Come on in.” He said, “You’ve got

congestive heart failure. I am going to send you to Lawrence Memorial Hospital.” So

they found I had fluid on my chest and they drained a liter of fluid out. When they

drained the fluid and tested it, they found free-floating cancer cells. So they did a CT

scan and they found a mass behind my breast bone between my breast bone and my heart.

30

So on the 23rd

they put me in the truck and sent me to Kansas City. (It was really quite

a lot nicer than that.) On the 24th

of May they opened me up and took a billiard ball

sized tumor out of me. They sewed me back up and I spent all of June recuperating from

that. I got really pretty well back. I was walking eight miles a day, four miles in the

morning and four miles at night. I was in really good shape so they said, “Okay, you’re

ready for radiation and chemotherapy.” So I started that on the eighth or ninth of July.

I think I started radiation on the 8th

and had my first chemotherapy on the 9th

. So now I

am in the process of five days a week of radiation and once every three week of

chemotherapy. I’ll have radiation for another four and a half weeks. I’ll have

chemotherapy for another 15 weeks. So that’s why I’m kind of out of breath, a little

short of breath. But that’s how my retirement started. Not quite the way I had planned

it. But I have several projects in various stages of development. I have finished two

articles this summer. I’m working with former students or former colleagues. One is

on the history of music education and music therapy at the University of Miami. One of

my students, a really bright girl, is the head of music therapy down there. She got the

job while I was there. I sort of helped her get it. Another former student who was here

at KU in the 1980s, a tuba player, a music ed major, is doing a doctorate at the University

of Miami. So the three of us are going to write a history of the department down there.

Then a colleague, Cindy Colwell, a fairly new faculty member at KU, and I are doing an

article on Lowell Mason, a series of books that he wrote in the 1860s. My part on those

two projects is about done. Then I am still working on the book that I started on my

1995 sabbatical. And I’ve still got the archives from the College Music Society, which

at the moment are sitting upstairs in boxes and cartons. I have about eight projects of

31

various shapes and sizes under way.

Q.: Do you have grandchildren?

A: Come back in about a month. Our first. It is due in mid August. That’s going to be a

big project. I’ll put everything else aside for that.

Q.: I understand that you and your wife have made some major gifts to KU.

A: Yes. We have two funds, actually. One we started with the kids. When we moved

into this house in 1992 we gave up a five-bedroom single-family house in Indian Hills.

It served us well as a blended family. Everyone had their own room in a far distant

corner of the house. But the house was just crammed with stuff when we moved in.

This is a 1200-square-foot condo. So the kids were always saying, “What can we get

you? What can we get you?” We finally decided what we needed to do was to set up a

fund. Because our kids are really busy. They are young, starting families and careers.

Instead of shopping on Christmas Eve and going to Quick Trip and hoping it is still open,

I said, “Why don’t you just write a check for whatever amount you want and we will put

it in this fund.” The way that works with the Endowment Association is they notify us

that so and so has given a gift, but they don’t say how much it is. I said, “We’ll set up

this thing and we’ll call it the Heller Family Fund. And Judy and I will make a major

contribution to it to get it started. Then you kids can kind of take it over.” What that is

is a fund for any undergraduate in education generally. None of our three kids are in

music, but all of them have had great experiences in school and have had wonderful

teachers that have inspired them, etc.

Q.: Were they KU students?

A: Yes, two of them. Scott Thompson, Judy’s son, got his bachelor’s degree in aerospace

32

engineering. My daughter, Jennifer, who was free when I was firty-free, is now firty

herself. She has a bachelor’s and a master’s and is finishing a Ph.D. in American

Studies at KU. David is the maverick. He went away to Michigan State and got a

degree in physics. But he’ll probably get a master’s degree at KU because he is back in

Kansas now. So we just decided that in honor of all teachers everywhere, etc. that we

would set up the Heller Family Fund that would grant a scholarship to an undergraduate

in education. The Endowment Association lets faculty members start at any level they

want and increase it. But they won’t award a scholarship until the fund has at least

$10,000. Other people who are not faculty need to start with $10,000 gift. But we were

allowed to build it up. Then after a couple of years Judy and I said, “Let’s pay it off, get

it up to $10,000 so we can have fun and go to the reception and see them award our

scholarship.” So we did that. Then two or three years ago we were working with our

attorney and redoing our wills and everything and we got to thinking seriously about

what we wanted to do. So we made a $50,000 commitment (after we die when they

parcel out the estate) to music education, because both Judy and I have degrees in music

education. So we call that the George and Judy Heller Music Education Scholarship

Fund. So we have this one for the whole family and the other one for me and Judy. We

are contributing to that, and I think one of these years we are going to pay that up to

$10,000 minimum because it is a lot of fun to go to those things and see those kids.

With Judy working at the Endowment Association, I got kind of tuned in to that whole

thing and how it operates. I was really attracted to the idea of in perpetuity somebody

will call out your name for an award. I really like the idea that the kids can make gifts to

us and it goes to a greater purpose. So that’s kind of how we got into that. We

33

probably got into that because that was time when Judy was working at the Endowment

Association and we really got to understand how the whole thing works and how you can

really set something up in perpetuity. I said to Judy when we set up the second fund–the

purpose of the first fund was just to get the kids taken care of so they didn’t have to go

shopping at midnight on Christmas Eve. The purpose of the second fund was...I said to

Judy, “I will have spent 29 years here. I’d like to leave some footprints in the sand and

let people know that I was here.” I’ve seen so many colleagues spend their whole career

here, retire and leave, and nobody ever hears from them again. It is sort of like they

were never here. That’s kind of the purpose of the second fund, to remind people I was

here.

Q.: What is your assessment of KU or your department, past, present, hopes for the future,

that kind of thing?

A: A lot has changed in the 29 years I was here.

Q.: I’m sure.

A: I’m kind of not really pleased with many of the changes. When I came here, I made

$10,500 a year. My last year’s salary, had I been working full time, would have been

$55,000. That’s a little more than a five-fold increase. But that house that I paid

$23,500 for in now listed on the county clerk’s register for $125,000, which is more than

a five-fold increase. The car that I bought in 1973 for $1,973 would cost at least

$12,000, more like $15,000. So my salary last year was about the same as my salary in

1973, except that I was a full professor with 29 years experience and a list of 100

publications and a couple of books, etc. I knew all along that that was happening.

Because I would get my annual raise and I would look at inflation and Blue Cross-Blue

34

Shield. Faculty members have lost ground. And I think a lot of them don’t really

realize that, because it has been so gradual. It has been a percentage or half a percentage

but it has been every year, year after year. And after you have spent 30 years here, your

raises are all canceled out by either inflation or increased health care costs. And I think

that’s a serious problem. When I came here in 1973 the University of Michigan was

getting about half its budget from the state of Michigan and KU was getting about two

thirds from the state of Kansas. Last year the University of Michigan got eight percent

of its budget from the state of Michigan and the University of Kansas got something like

25 percent of its budget from the state of Kansas. That I find really, really discouraging,

because I think the state is saying education is no longer a priority. They are not saying

that out loud, but every time they vote the budget, and it happened again this year. And

I don’t think it is just higher education. It is K through 12 as well.

Q.: Oh, sure.

A: They just don’t want to face the fact that education costs money and is a priority. It is

important, I think, that they have revised their thinking. Education has gotten very

politicized with all those groups concerned about what’s being taught, the whole

evolution debacle, abortion, all the political issues that have somehow gotten rolled into

education. It has been detrimental. It has really been a sad thing to witness over 30

years’ time. And the erosion has been so gradual that I think it has escaped many

people’s attention. But to me it is very clear, especially at this time when I’m sort of

summing up my life and my work and everything and looking at things like that. It

really is kind of discouraging.

The other thing that bothers me a lot is about education, at all levels but especially

35

in higher education, is the increasing emphasis on outward appearance and the increasing

neglect of inward strength. By that I mean all of the emphasis on public relations

(unclear) and the appearance of the campus and everything. It seems to me that it is

totally out of control. Meanwhile we are closing the Museum of Anthropology and we

are letting T.A.s go. In the public schools they no longer can have nurses and social

workers , I mean the real nitty gritty things that make education function are not being

funded. And all fluff that creates an appearance that things are well is getting all this

attention. I think this is bad business, and eventually it is all going to catch up with us

when somebody looks behind the facade and finds there is nothing there. Murray

Sperber, the English teacher at Indiana University who was involved in the Bob Knight

controversy there, wrote a book called Beer and Circus. He went around the country

interviewing people at about 40 different universities. He came to the conclusion that

athletics and student drinking were supported or condoned by the administration because

it took the attention away from the fact that the kids just weren’t getting a very good

education. That seems extreme, but that’s what he found when he interviewed all these

people. And that’s my experience at KU. KU is a wonderful school, a wonderful

university. And I think the School of Fine Arts does a great job and the music ed and the

music therapy departments are nationally known, working at the highest level national.

But they are swimming upstream and the current is getting faster and faster. And they

are just fighting. Of course, right now with all the budget problems that they are going

through, morale is really, really bad up there. In 30 years I have been through about

three of these recision things where the state would offer money and then they would take

back 10 percent of it or whatever. In the past it has always seemed like it was a

36

necessary thing to go through, but this current thing, I don’t know. People are really

discouraged. A lot of people have said, “You have retired at the right time.” That kind

of makes me feel sad. So I hate to be kind of negative, but that is how I feel at this

point.

Q.: Is there anything else you’d like to add that I forgot to ask?

A: No. In every respect it has been a wonderful career. I’ve been happy raising my family

in Lawrence and sending them to Lawrence schools. I have been happy to live in the

Lawrence community. I’ve been happy for the church experience that I’ve had. It’s been

wonderful. I couldn’t write a better script for it. I wish the state was more involved in

what I value. Frankly, that’s one of the reasons I got involved in politics. You can’t

just sit on the side and complain. You’ve got to do something. I looked around for

different things to do and finally decided to run for precinct chair. Of course, once you

make a commitment like that, they say, “How would you like to be vice chair of the

county party?” You know how that goes. But I really do think that people who care

about education need to get involved in the political process in a direct way, not just

putting up yard signs and voting. That’s just not enough any more. I think you have

really got to get involved in the organization and do stuff. I think it is clear that the

Democratic Party is much more involved in education. So that’s why I chose to do that.

Q.: Okay. Thank you very much.

A: You’re welcome.