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Thank you for your e-mail. As a matter of fact, I received a call about this from someone in New Jersey just last week. 2) The 2021 has been made by the hundreds of thousands, and "opinions" notwithstanding, we have never heard from any customer for this movement regarding the types of problems you have described. After hundreds of thousands, we think we would have by now if there were actually issues. Re: Dubois 2021 & Invicta fiasco From: Christopher Becker Senior Member Super Geek
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Argabright Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,787
Response from Dubuis Depraz RE:Speedway Issue
Re: Dubois 2021 & Invicta fiasco
From: Christopher Becker
[email protected], [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Jun 11, 2010 02:17
Dear ,
Thank you for your e-mail. As a matter of fact, I received a call about this from
someone in New Jersey just last week.
We are currently investigating what has happened here, and can clearly state the
following:
1) Invicta has never purchased a movement or module from Dubois-Depraz. We
have had sporadic contact in the past, but to date no movement has ever been
supplied to them.
2) The 2021 has been made by the hundreds of thousands, and "opinions"
notwithstanding, we have never heard from any customer for this movement
regarding the types of problems you have described. After hundreds of thousands,
we think we would have by now if there were actually issues.
3) Since Invicta is not a customer of ours, we have no idea if the movements alluded
to are in fact genuine DD modules or not. We have seen "duplicates" of our modules
in the past (sadly, not bad ones, either), and if they are such, Invicta may very well
not even be aware that they are, since they have never had the real thing to
compare it to. If they are genuine, we do not know how many hands they passed
through before they arrived at Invicta, and what treatment they were subject to.
4) We have contacted Invicta Watch and requested not only their reaction to your e-
mail, but also 5-10 samples of cased watches with the modules to determine their
origin (see 3) above) and initial sales point (both of which we can do). As you and
your members are surely also aware, the casing procedure itself is very delicate and
can de-regulate a chronometer-grade movement as well as cause damage to
components, such as dials and hands, if done improperly.
5) Obviously, the President of Invicta has not had, nor would he have reason to have
had, any "loud conversation" with Dubois-Depraz since he is not even a customer. I
would be very surprised if he or anyone from his company publicly blamed DD for
something of that nature as claimed; it is not his style as I have known him.
Any person making the types of claims you have mentioned in your e-mail should be
advised to be very sure of their information, and the veracity of any information,
before making pejorative public statements, especially on a national network.
You may feel free to post this response on your site, and we appreciate your keeping
us informed of these events.
Kind regards,
Chris Becker
Business Development Manager--Americas
Dubois-Depraz SA
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3 Lastest Threads by Argabright
Thread Forum Last Poster Replies Views Last Post
Response from Dubuis Depraz RE:Speedway Issue Speedway Elite Issues Forum GeorgeTheWatchGuy 70 966 06-11-2010
04:12 PM
Is Misleading marketing OK in other products, or... Off Topic GeorgeTheWatchGuy 3 114 06-05-2010
10:22 AM
Invicta Reserve Akula Rose/Gold $179 SHIPPED For Sale by Owner Argabright 3 264 05-28-2010
09:41 PM
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#2
Today, 04:19 PM
powerballn503 Senior Member
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WOW now that is a good read !
I really have no comment im just at awe and have alot of respect for DD
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#3
Today, 04:19 PM
rice22 Senior Member
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Where did Invicta get those movements.....They seem large enough to get them
straight from DD...
Last edited by rice22; Today at 04:23 PM. Reason: wrong choice of words
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#4
Today, 04:21 PM
dadrock Senior Member
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Very interesting.
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#5
Today, 04:22 PM
ladakrenz Member
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INTERESTING, very interesting!
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#6
Today, 04:23 PM
Wingman2010 Senior Member Senior Geek
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The plot thickens.
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#7
Today, 04:25 PM
JFM Senior Member
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It will be interesting to see if Invicta responds about the email and sends the
samples.
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#8
Today, 04:25 PM
pirate Senior Member
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hmmmmm, is this a genuine e-mail? I thought that Eyal said DD built and modified
these movements specifically for Invicta.
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#9
Today, 04:27 PM
battleshipduke Senior Member
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Very Interesting Indeed...
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#10
Today, 04:27 PM
dakdaddy Member
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Have we ever been led down a path! I for one thought DD was dealing with Eyal on
this matter?????????
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#11
Today, 04:28 PM
JFM Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate
hmmmmm, is this a genuine e-mail? I thought that Eyal said DD built and modified
these movements specifically for Invicta.
Well, there are two pretty genuine looking email addys at the top of the OP. Email
them and find out.
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#12
Today, 04:34 PM
pirate Senior Member Senior Geek
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Real Name: terry
just the facts, ma'am (or sir)
http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=107791
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#13
Today, 04:36 PM
dakdaddy Member Member Geek
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Something stinks here!
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#14
Today, 04:42 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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sounds like more smoke and mirrors from Invicta
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#15
Today, 04:43 PM
Jor084 Senior Member
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Oh wow. I don't think anyone expected something like this. Interesting indeed.
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#16
Today, 04:48 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskelton
Hey gang.
As promised, I did follow-up with Eyal on this issue. He just called me at home and
we talked about it (as best as I could talk given the fact my jaw doesn't move LOL)
He flew into Minneapolis TODAY (2 days earlier than planned) to pull all Speedway
inventory from ShopNBC to have sent back home to Florida for re-inspection. I had
asked him to make sure that ShopNBC does not go ahead with their plans of re-
airing them this weekend (not all Shop departments were aware of the issue), and
instead of just calling to have them cancel the airings... he freakin' FLEW HERE early
to do it in person.
He has had many conference calls with the folks at D-D and they are jointly
looking into the issue. Invicta had several large scale projects in the works
with D-D that are now ON HOLD until Eyal sees that D-D can take care of this
issue. All involved believe the issue is a D-D issue. Whether or not Invicta could or
could not have caught all of the defects through basic inspection aside... the
problem began with how the chrono plate was built, and this was done purely by D-
D.
Eyal is accepting fault and blame for the issues, but D-D as I understand it is
owning up to their responsibilities as well, so in the end... this means we
should never expect to see such an issue in the future. All of the remaining pieces
ShopNBC owns will go back to Invicta in Florida, and any not passing Eyal's
inspection go to D-D in Switzerland for a total rebuild so that HOPEFULLY we can
offer them again in the future without worry.
Eyal is not only concerned, but feels terrible about the inconvenience caused to all
of you that received a bum watch. This is why he has made all Speedway Elite
repairs "priority" above all others, in hopes of expediting the repair. Eyal was out of
the country when these began to deliver and the problems first arose... and yes he
of course has a computer, and it works out of the country... that's not the point
when we say "Eyal was out of the country", the point was that he was deep in
meetings morning to night (at 6 hours AHEAD of his home time zone) and delegated
Rebecca and myself to talk to those having issues. He created the solution with
Rebecca, Rebecca is executing his instructions, and I'm relaying all info that I
possibly can to you personally.
Eyal has asked me to relay his personal apologies to everyone over these issues,
and hopes that he can make this up to everyone by getting to the bottom of the
problem, fixing it, and moving on having learned from this experience.
I hope this helps.
After reading that email, is anything from the above true!?!?!??!
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#17
Today, 04:50 PM
WiZKiD... Senior Member
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WOW! VERY INTERESTING.. MAKES YOU WONDER NOW BOUT ALL THE OTHER
MOVEMENTS i.e. valjoux 7750... hmmmm... to be continued i guess...
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#18
Today, 04:51 PM
JavaQueen Senior Member
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It is possible then, that the movements were obtained through a third party? That
could be the only explanation, which I would not call "smoke and mirrors,"
necessarily. I think, really, that it is possible that a "reliable source" was this time not
reliable, but I woud not drag out a bucket of tar and a brush. Something isnt' quite
right somewhere.
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#19
Today, 04:53 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaQueen
It is possible then, that the movements were obtained through a third party? That
could be the only explanation, which I would not call "smoke and mirrors,"
necessarily. I think, really, that it is possible that a "reliable source" was this time
not reliable, but I woud not drag out a bucket of tar and a brush. Something isnt'
quite right somewhere.
wouldnt saying that invicta is working directly with DD and it turns out that DD has
never even been contacted smoke and mirrors?
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#20
Today, 04:53 PM
Arnie11 Senior Member
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LOL! This ain't exactly all warm and fuzzy. More like wiggly and squirmey!
LOL! They say timing is everything. Breaking news right on top of the NGGT.
Oh brutha!
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#21
Today, 04:54 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiZKiD...
WOW! VERY INTERESTING.. MAKES YOU WONDER NOW BOUT ALL THE OTHER
MOVEMENTS i.e. valjoux 7750... hmmmm... to be continued i guess...
especially since the chinese make an exact clone of the 7750 and many other ETA
movements....
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#22
Today, 04:54 PM
Franco Senior Member Senior Geek
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Location: Brentwood,Northern CA Posts: 380
I purchased one of the Dubois-Depraz watches and reading this makes me not want
to buy a watch from Invicta ever again; as someone who purchased the watch I
definetly need to know if I paid a grand for a fake dubois-depraz and if so what
Invicta will do about this.
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#23
Today, 04:55 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskelton
All involved believe the issue is a D-D issue.
Passing blame to an unknowing, innocent party.....
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#24
Today, 04:56 PM
vbobdriveguy Senior Member
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Something tells me this ones going to go on for a while. Think I'll pull up a chair, a
bag of chips, and a cold one.
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#25
Today, 04:57 PM
STILL TICKIN Senior Member
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It all sounds like flame (CON)fusion to me!
gmen97 Senior Member
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to all who purchased this i fear the worse is about
to come to light .... i hope this gets resloved to all
of your satisfaction .....
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#27
Today, 04:58 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STILL TICKIN
It all sounds like flame fusion to me!
or 18kt swiss gold layering.....
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#28
Today, 05:00 PM
icewolf64 Senior Member
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Wow! That is really interesting e-mail you received there. Somehow this does not
surprise me considering my latest discovery on the "SWISS" watches.
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#29
Today, 05:01 PM
Azel88 Senior Member
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Something is rotten in Denmark i bet this thread will get shut faster that a fat man at
a free buffet
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#30
Today, 05:02 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azel88
Something is rotten in Denmark i bet this thread will get shut faster that a fat man
at a free buffet
or maybe it will take a week to get a lawyer-written response from one of the higher
ups...
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#31
Today, 05:02 PM
wmfagan Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argabright
Any person making the types of claims you have mentioned in your e-mail should
be advised to be very sure of their information, and the veracity of any information,
before making pejorative public statements, especially on a national network.
Argabright:
What did you tell D-D in your original Email?
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#32
Today, 05:03 PM
modgoldwing46 Senior Member
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Did in fact Invicta get the movements from DD or make Clones? It kinda like their
Invicta Yellow case issue were they copied it from the original manufacturer. Now it
make me wonder if my SAN III 7750 is a clone movement. That could be the
problems with all of the defects, which no other company seems to have with their
Valjoux 7750.
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#33
Today, 05:04 PM
Leed24 Senior Member
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So we have a statement from Eyal thru Jim, and now you. Who do I believe ? Ya
know, I was going to say something about this subject. It is just not worth it
anymore. It is just a watch.
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#34
Today, 05:04 PM
BwatchSF Senior Member
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There certainly does appear to be a disconnect between the two messages, but I don't
think anyone should rush to judgement. Is it possible business developement might
not know about everything that happens within a company that makes thousands if
not hundreds of thousands of movements?
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#35
Today, 05:05 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BwatchSF
There certainly does appear to be a disconnect between the two messages, but I
don't think anyone should rush to judgement. Is it possible business developement
might not know about everything that happens within a company that makes
thousands if not hundreds of thousands of movements?
It seemed pretty clear in the email that DD made sure they have their own facts
straight.
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#36
Today, 05:05 PM
qwikfix Senior Member
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This circus just won't leave town will it?
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#37
Today, 05:05 PM
camel Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
or 18kt swiss gold layering.....
on the molecular level
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#38
Today, 05:06 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leed24
So we have a statement from Eyal thru Jim, and now you. Who do I believe ? Ya
know, I was going to say something about this subject. It is just not worth it
anymore. It is just a watch.
Sorry, but this is much, MUCH more than "just a watch."
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#39
Today, 05:06 PM
buddah00 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icewolf64
Wow! That is really interesting e-mail you received there. Somehow this does not
surprise me considering my latest discovery on the "SWISS" watches.
This is very disturbing, especially after your discovery.
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#40
Today, 05:07 PM
powerballn503 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leed24
So we have a statement from Eyal thru Jim, and now you. Who do I believe ? Ya
know, I was going to say something about this subject. It is just not worth it
anymore. It is just a watch.
Thats what i say...
I look at it all as food for thought!
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#41
Today, 05:07 PM
roloya Senior Member
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Could easily be a miscommunication between DD folks in Switzerland and Mr.
Becker here in the US.
Even Swiss firms can apply the mushroom philosophy to their own employees.
You know about mushrooms don't you? Keep 'em in the dark and feed em s**t!
Quite possible the former Gangzhou. China (the center for high-end replicas)
watchmaker now working in Le Lieu, Switzerland wasn't fully trained before
being assigned the Invicta order
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#42
Today, 05:08 PM
mapleglow Senior Member
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Oh Boy this is starting to get interesting.
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Nov 2, 2010 Phase one
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#43
Today, 05:09 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roloya
Could easily be a miscommunication between DD folks in Switzerland and Mr. Becker here in the US. Even Swiss firms can apply the mushroom philosophy to their own employees. You know about mushrooms don't you? Keep 'em in the dark and feed em s**t!
I give Mr. Becker enough credit to contact members of his own company to get the
right facts to respond to an email. His email was worded very definitively. Didn't
sound like a man who doesn't know how to do his job.
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#44
Today, 05:10 PM
BwatchSF Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
It seemed pretty clear in the email that DD made sure they have their own facts
straight.
I feel like I should respond, but what do I say? We have two conflicting statements
with no way to tell which is correct. I will not speculate further.
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#45
Today, 05:10 PM
Leed24 Senior Member Senior Geek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
Sorry, but this is much, MUCH more than "just a watch."
I don't get it ? What is MUCH more ? How is this so important ? Please explain the
dire impact.
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#46
Today, 05:12 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leed24
I don't get it ? What is MUCH more ? How is this so important ? Please explain the
dire impact.
You mean selling people a $1000+ lie has no "dire impact." How do you expect to
make any future Invicta purchases when a company is run like this. Again: much
more than just a watch.
Especially coming after the "Swiss" debacle....
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#47
Today, 05:14 PM
Argabright Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmfagan
Argabright:
What did you tell D-D in your original Email?
Not MY email. I saw it on another site. Permission was given to post elsewhere.
Here was his original email request:
Dear Mr. Becker,
I am writing to you to inquire if you had seen or heard of the complaints by buyers of
a new Invicta watch that has been touted as using the Dubois 2021 module. If not, all
of the posts, unedited by my small forum of dedicated collectors are available for
viewing.
It seems that the hands on the watches were mis-aligned and there were other
related issues. The TV cable host of the site where these Invicta Speedway watches
were sold made a big deal of the fault being that of Dubois. He went out of his way to
state the owner of Invicta Watch Group would be having a "loud conversation" with
Dubois Dupraz. He and the watch company have made it clear that the faults of the
problems discussed are not the fault of Invicta and repeated opinions• that the fault
lay with your company. It was inferred by the afore-mentioned Host for Shopnbc, Jim
Skelton that other unnamed watch companies had experienced similar problems with
Dubois modules. As the owner of several watches with Dubois modules including a
Maurice Lacroix, I would dispute that statement.
I am also asking if you could provide any information as to the back-story on this
issue and perhaps how Invicta came to obtain this module. The vendor made a big
show on how difficult it is to obtain them and to be approved by Dubois. Of course,
this same company has been forced to admit that the watches it sells with the word
Swiss at the 6 oclock position have Chinese movements in them.
Most of us are of the opinion that the modules or movements and modules were
obtained from a third party other than Dubois and exported to the middle east. Our
little forum, which has 80 core members of long time serious watch collectors has
aproximatly 500 visitors a day. Not too bad for a forum which does no advertising,
and limits membership to those approved by the members themselves.
If you do respond, I could if permited, post the response for people to view. We are
small but our reach is very long.
Best regards,
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#48
Today, 05:16 PM
JavaQueen Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
wouldnt saying that invicta is working directly with DD and it turns out that DD has
never even been contacted smoke and mirrors?
Hate to break this to you, but since most of those TV brands outsource aspects of
manufacturing, it's all "smoke and mirrors." So you never really know what the
outsources do.
If you want cheaper watches, this is what you get. Sorry. Not a grand conspiracy.
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#49
Today, 05:16 PM
RenatoDiamond Senior Member
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Very interesting, sounds like something strange is going on.
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#50
Today, 05:17 PM
Leed24 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
You mean selling people a $1000+ lie has no "dire impact." How do you expect to
make any future Invicta purchases when a company is run like this. Again: much
more than just a watch.
Especially coming after the "Swiss" debacle....
Once again this is not a dire impact. It is just a watch that I put on my wrist. I don't
put my family within its confines and drive it at 65 miles per hour. I respect your
opinion, and your right to say it, I just respectfully disagree. It is just a watch, and
the word dire means that it gravely impacts my life. This issue does not.
Leed24 Senior Member Senior Geek
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Location: Phoenix, AZ.
Posts: 348 Real Name: Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
You make it seem like spending $1000 on junk is
nothing...
Now the OP is saying that the email came from a website
and did not originally come to him. This email might not
even be legit. My point has been made. As to your "junk"
comment, my watch has been running just fine since I
bought it. So as to your "junk" comment, it is your own
feeling, not everyones, and certainly not mine.
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#52
Today, 05:25 PM
strutn45 Senior Member
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Being the proud owner of a perfect Speedway, i will not jump to
conclusions...i'll will be waiting for a response on this matter.
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#53
Today, 05:25 PM
journeyguy Senior Member Senior Geek
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 385
OMG ! Is this ture.....We have been duped. We need to hear directly from Eyal now.
No more explanations from anyone,except Eyal.
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#54
Today, 05:26 PM
Rog1 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaQueen
Hate to break this to you, but since most of those TV brands outsource aspects of
manufacturing, it's all "smoke and mirrors." So you never really know what the
outsources do.
If you want cheaper watches, this is what you get. Sorry. Not a grand conspiracy.
I believe your opinion is the most likely to be correct, but I am open to everyones
opinion and anyone who can provide the real facts.
(manufacturing and ASSEMBLY are outsourced by those TV brands)
R
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#55
Today, 05:30 PM
JavaQueen Senior Member
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The problem with these Internet things is that they too can be "smoke and mirrors."
If you didn't see the real letter, then who knows for sure? Never trust a second or
third source..Especially on the Internet.
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#56
Today, 05:34 PM
strutn45 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
and what would you call your 9,146 posts?
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#57
Today, 05:34 PM
Leed24 Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
Comment removed by Moderator
I guess I will have to cross that bridge if it comes. Every other Invicta that I have that
the case has been opened has the correct movement in it. So why would I change my
belief system over an email that was taken off another website and placed on Watch
Geeks. This is all speculation at this point, and once again without proof or
legitimate validation has done nothing but stir up anomosity again. Congratulations
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#58
Today, 05:34 PM
watchluv Senior Member
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Posts: 2,413
All I have to say is Eyal BUSTED.
I never thought D-D had a defective module as was stated they are the best like ETA.
Invicta probably got a Chinese knock off and used D-D's name to make a large profit.
To all who bought the Speedway I think you were taking. Who knows if the Swiss
Made watches are really Swiss Made from this. You can't believe anything Eyal says
from now on. But I think this takes the case. If I were D-D I would sue Eyal for
slander to their name. That is totally uncalled for. Very disturbing. If you lie once you
lie twice you'll do anything.
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#59
Today, 05:35 PM
Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 790
I'm going to use a phrase that my Mother always used when she was suprised, "Holy
buckets!"
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#60
Today, 05:37 PM
zulumack Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: CT
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Real Name: john
speedway Issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
Sorry, but this is much, MUCH more than "just a watch."
thank you. it may have to do with all sw200, v7750 and DD $$$$
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#61
Today, 05:39 PM
pirate Senior Member Senior Geek
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: bakersfield,ca
Posts: 335
Real Name: terry
Sorry, but this is much, MUCH more than "just a watch."
Yes, it's ethics
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#62
Today, 05:39 PM
powerballn503 Senior Member
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Real Name: Cory
My thoughts...
*I instantly thought the Speedway with the DD movement was a too good too be true
price !
*Zero reason to discredit DD or point finger at them for anything , as all i have ever
heard is they are a Top Shelf Company!
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#63
Today, 05:39 PM
JavaQueen Senior Member
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Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leed24
I guess I will have to cross that bridge if it comes. Every other Invicta that I have
that the case has been opened has the correct movement in it. So why would I
change my belief system over an email that was taken off another website and
placed on Watch Geeks. This is all speculation at this point, and once again
without proof or legitimate validation has done nothing but stir up anomosity
again. Congratulations
I agree with you. Unless you actually have seen the original document and know the
original recipient to a reliable source, can you really believe this to be true.
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#64
Today, 05:39 PM
freedom727 Senior Member
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Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by strutn45
point proven. thanks
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#65
Today, 05:40 PM
LadyCopper Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posts: 3,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaQueen
The problem with these Internet things is that they too can be "smoke and mirrors."
If you didn't see the real letter, then who knows for sure? Never trust a second or
third source..Especially on the Internet.
Pat on the back Java - well said.
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#66
Today, 05:41 PM
Leed24 Senior Member
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Location: Phoenix, AZ. Posts: 348
Real Name: Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchluv
All I have to say is Eyal BUSTED.
I never thought DD had a defective modual as was stated they are the best like
ETA. Invicta probably got a Chinese knock off and used DD's name to make a large
profit. To all who bought the Speedway I think you were taking. Who knows if the
Swiss Made watches are really Swiss Made from this. You can't believe anything
Eyal says from now on. But I think this takes the case. If I were DD I would sue
Eyal for slander to their name. That is totally uncalled for. Very distubing. If you lie
once you lie twice you'll do anything.
Crimany people ! think for yourselves. Just because someone posted something on
the internet ,or says it is so, doesn't make it true. Would you believe the moon is
made of cheese, because someone sent an email and posted it on the internet ? This
is all just SPECULATION
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#67
Today, 05:41 PM
strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek
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Location: "Da Swamp" LA.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom727
point proven. thanks
Yeah...right, thanks.
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#68
Today, 05:42 PM
Jor084 Senior Member
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Location: OC, CA
Posts: 349 Real Name: Jorge
So what is this other site on which this letter was posted on?
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#69
Today, 05:45 PM
Krazy Senior Member
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Harrisburg, Pa
Posts: 150
Real Name: Jr
Well, I have two of these that are working so far so I'll sit tight for the moment to see
Eyal's response. If we were mis-represented the goods then rest assured ShopNbc
and all involved will have a long hard road ahead of them. We were informed they
were legit on air and that only Dubois-Debraz was able to Eta movement so there was
no imply that they were hacked together by some lesser group and purchased as
such. Anything else is fraud,clear and simple! For those who like being conned, enjoy
in good health but I surelly will not participate in that scenario!
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#70
Today, 05:47 PM
GeorgeTheWatchGuy WatchGeeks Moderator
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This one is Done! __________________
"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the
Permanent Pain of Regret"... GTWG
