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INTERVIEW W ITH SR. URSULA

Date of interview: 14 Novembea·, 1997.

~ Location:__,oor·agul, N.S.W.

lntervicwe•·: l)aul Firman.

Int. Now don' t forget, you can stop this at any time.

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. OK, this interview is between Paul Firman interviewing and Sister Ursula- can you tell me you full name and date of birth.

Sr. U. My full name is Ursula Kauter, and my date of birth is '27.

Int. Right. And is that K.A.U.T.E.R.?

Sr. U. Kauter, yes.

Int. And are you still with the Order?

Sr. U. Oh yes.

lnt. And that is ...

Sr. U. The Sisters of St. Joseph of Lochinvar.

Int. And how long have you been .. .

Sr. U. In the order?

lnt ... in the order?

Sr. U. Nearly 50 years, at least.

Int. Right.

Sr. U. 52 years since I entered the convent.

Int. And you were at Merewether School?

Sr. U. l was the Principal of the School, went there in 1976, and stayed 6 years.

Int. Right. Who was your predecessor?

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Interview with Sister Ursula 2.

Sr. U. Sr. Margaret Ann Geaches.

Int. And she is still local?

Sr. U. Yes, she lives at Carrington.

Int. Right. Do you recall any of the other teachers or people associated with the school in that period when you first started?

Sr. U. Oh, yes. Diane McDonald was Year 5 Teacher.. .

Int. Are these Sisters or lay teachers?

Sr. U. No., I was the only nun. There were two other nuns there, but they weren't involved with the upper classes

Int. Um.

Sr. U. The secretary was Mrs. Phyllis McDonald.

Int. These are local residents?

Sr. U. Phyllis was then, she now lives at Wallsend.

Int. Right. So how many teachers were there in total? Or roughly.

Sr. U. Oh, well, one for each class- single stream.

Int. And how many classes?

Sr. U. Seven teachers- seven

Int. Seven. What number of students did you have, pupils, did you have in any class?

Sr. U. Between 25 and 30, I would say, as far as l remember.

Int. Umm, in the whole school?

Sr. U Oh, no, in each class.

Int. Oh, in each class, and they ranged in age from?

Sr. U. Kindergarten, 5-1/2 to 6, up to 12, l would think.

Int. Right. Who was the Deputy Principal when you took over?

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Interview with Sr. Ursula 3.

Sr. U. Dianne McDonald.

Int. Was that the Dianne McDonald whose is the mother of one of the ... ?

Sr. U. No, that's Phyllis McDonald, who was the Secretary. Dianne lives at Medowie and is now teaching in the State department at Medowie.

Int. And you inherited her?

Sr. U. Yes. She was there before me.

Int. Fine- where did Sr. Margaret Ann go to fi·om there?

Sr. U. Muswellbrook.

Int. You are obviously aware ofthe contact with rather Ryan?

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. When did you first have contact with him?

Sr. U. I never had contact with him at all. He had lefi before I got there in 1976.

Int. Right.

Sr. U. But Phyllis McDonald, my Secretary, and the mother of one of the boys told me. I just knew, but I had no idea, and I firmly believe that she had no idea. that it was as serious as it was.

Int. When you went into the school, the matter had already been ...

Sr. U. It had happened in 1975, but some of the boys were in my class in 1976.

Int. Do you remember who they were

Sr. U. Yes, Gerard McDonald. Actually I didn't remember these until the Detective told me they were in my class. I wasn't told in 1976.

Int. Um

Sr. U. Scott Hallet, REDACTED umm - the others were in

Int. REDACTED

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Interview with Sr. Ursula 4 .

Sr. U. yes, but he was one, he was either in the other 6th class, and there might have been more that seven classes, with two 6th classes. He was, he was either in that or had gone on to Year 7. I didn't know this when I was teaching in '76. The only one 1 knew was Gerard McDonald .

Int. So had you been appraised of the problem before you went to the school?

Sr. U. No.

Int. Who was it who .... ?

Sr. U. The Secretary, Mrs. McDonald

Int. Right.

Sr. U. But she told me it.. .. As far as I remember, this is something of what she told me that Father Ryan had touched them and had been sent to Melbourne for counselling. I had no idea and 1 don't believe she did either.

Int. Umm

Sr. U. She even said since she didn't. Shocked me, she said.

Int. Was there any obvious effect on the children from your observations?

Sr. U. Well, not knowing, I didn't know, it wasn't an easy class, but I mean I have had plenty of classes that weren't easy. Um, the way Phyllis now remembers exactly how she tol.d me, if you want to hear it?

Int. Yes.

Sr. U. Well, she said that I went down to where she was typing in the common room/staff room and I must have said something, "Oh, those boys", and I said to her, "And one of them is your son." You know, we were good friends, and she turned and said to me "Well, if you knew what they went through last year, you'd understand." l went off, and in due course came back and said, "What did happen to those boys?" And she told me. Now, that is what she told me since the whole thing blew up.

Int. This was your first.. .

Sr. U. Yes, but 1 don't remember those words, don' t remember the situation at all, when I was told, I just can't bring it back to memory, only that I do know I was told that they had been touched - but more about Father Ryan, he had been sent away.

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Interview with Sr. Ursula 5.

Int. Umm. How soon, when did you actually begin at the ... ?

Sr. U. At the beginning of'76

Int. Yes, and how soon was it after that was it that you were told?

Sr. U. l can ' t remember at all

Int. Long time? Short time?

Sr. U. Well, 1 think I must have got to know Phyllis, because you know we were the only .... according to what she has said, I don't remember that, but I seem to have known, it seems to me 1 knew nearly all the year. But I never spoke to anyone in the convent or anywhere. Didn't refer to Margaret Ann. 'Cos in a way, I didn't realise the gravity of it, and she didn't tell me the gravity of it.

Int. Umm

Sr. U. l didn ' t know if it was touching or what.

Int. Did you ...

Sr. U. I just felt I would be doing wrong by making it known.

Int. Yes. Had you been given any guidelines in the course ofyour training, or in your general experience, had you been given any guidelines or instructions about what to do in situations where you'd got abused children or ones suspected ofbeing abused?

Sr U. No, nothing to do with sexual abuse. There had been some who had been physically abused and we'd get in touch with the doctors.

Int. Umm

Sr. U. Evidence of bruises and things like that, but no, and I didn't... what, had I realised the gravity, I think l would have wanted advice. But I just, right or wrongly, I didn't realise, until l was told about it years later.

Int. When you joined the school, was Monsignor Cotter sti ll the Vicar Capitular?

Sr. U. Yes, he was. He was the Parish Priest too.

Int. Did he ever discuss the matter with you at that stage?

Sr U. No

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Interview with Sr. Ursula 6.

Int. l ' d like to just go through a check list, if you like, just to see if you can recall the children? Admittedly, these are between the period of '73 and '75, so some of them may have already gone by the time you got there, but we'll just hy out.

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. REDACTED

and REDACTED ?

Sr. U. No.

lnt REDACTED

Sr.U. No.

Int. REDACTED ?

Sr. U. No.

Int. REDACTED

?

Sr. U. No.

Int. REDACTED

Sr. U. No.

Int. REDACTED

Sr. U. Now I don't know if I remember him or his sister, but I remember the yes.

Int.

Sr. U. No.

Int. ~ Sr. U. No.

Int.

Sr.U. Yes.

lnt. ma•&W•!•'? Sr. U. No. Interview with Sr. Ursula 7.

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Int. Gerard McDonald?

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. Scott Hallett?

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. REDACTED

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. REDACTED

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. REDACTED

?

Sr. U. Yes.

Int.

Sr. U. Yes

Int. Oh, we've already got him-

Sr. U. Yes.

Int.

Sr. U. Yes.

Int. REDACTED I

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I ?

Sr. U No.

~ Int. --~

Sr. U. No.

Int. And REDACTED

Sr. U Yes. I taught his sister at~, and I think he had gone on but I still knew him. His father was a -

Int. Right. Now you said that the names didn't ring any bells?

Interview with Sr. Ursula 8.

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Sr. V. No, they don't

Int. When l spoke recently with Mons. Cotter, he couldn' t recall them either, umm. we have a statement from, a Police statement from his mother, CNA

Sr. U. What address was it, please

Int. They've rubbed that out.

Sr. U. Oh

Int. But she was a mother odillchildren- lived at Merewether with her husband, both now retired, but then of course this relates back a few years.

Sr. U. Yes

Int. Children are REDACTED

Sr. U. No, I don't but that doesn't say, its 20 years ago and I don't remember all the children in the school.

Int. Oh, here we are, it was 1974 they were livi M . Husband was working at as a REDACTED

Now, she refers to having gone to see Mons. Cotter in ' 74 to raise the issues, and that rather Ryan was brought down and was dismissive. Mons Cotter has got absolutely no recollection of that now, and he was quite adamant that it wasn't just a case of lost memory.

Sr. U. No, Mons Cotter ... ! don't remember it at all, but still! wasn't there in 1974. I didn't come until 1976. But Phyllis McDonald has talked - I haven' t been in contact but she has nmg me- and she has talked and named boys and all the rest, but I've never heard her mention

Int. Umm, is this the Mrs. McDonald who you said was the ... ?

Sr. U. The school secretary and lives at Wallsend and the mother of Gerard.

Int. Is this the person you said had told you there were a number of people jumping onto the compensation bandwagon, looking for money.

Sr. U. Well, she just said, yes, something like that. "I don't know, they're just after money."

Int. Umm - do you think the Admissions Books would still be available?

Interview with Sr. Ursula 9 .

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Sr. U. Well, they should be, that's ali i can say, they were, and the rolls, and I was always told as Principal they were legal documents. And I can tell you exactly where they were. We had a big, high cupboard and they were up there. but they have changed their offices now - the new one is changed. It's a shame but there we are.

Int. Do you know who the Principal is currently?

Sr. U. Oh, yes. Barbara- was Crawley- she married rather recently, Hoskins, Hoskins that's it, but the Catholic Education Office, the man in charge is Nick Bowman, he is the Director ofEduction.

Int. Do you ever recall having a conversation with Scott Hallett?

Sr. U. And he told me, that's what you're saying?

Int. Yes

SR. U. Well, when. was it Troy Grant, or Grant Troy?

Int. Troy Grant, the Detective

Sr.U. He brought that to me, and 1 can't, l couldn't recall it, but I thought so hard about it that I don't know whether I am imaging it or not, but. ..

Int. Or whether it has been implanted in you?

Sr.U. Yes, I 'm inclined to think it could have happened- I can't think what was said or anything at all.

Int. Umm

Sr.U. But when 1 read in the Newcastle Paper, and l knew who they were talking with Scott, and it said, like, that when he got enough courage to tell the Head Mistress, she told him he was a liar, I've never called a chi ld a liar, I taught at the School of St. John of God for emotionally disturbed children, and I would never call a child a liar. That, but- 1 don't remember details, nothing comes back. Now whether I'm pushing it back, I don't know.

Int. Umm

Sr. U. But at the time he said it, it was a complete shock, you know. 1 didn' t remember it.

Int. Umm. So you didn't actually have any contact with Vince Ryan, then, or at any later stage?

Interview with Sr. Ursula 10

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Sr. U. No, no.

Int. Did you pick up any comments from the children?

Sr. U. No, no, they did their work, and ...

Int. It wasn' t something that was foremost in their minds, obviously?

Sr. U. You see the boys that you named, and there were other boys in the class, and girls. And I didn't, and I wouldn't have singled them out...

Int. Umm.

Sr. U. ...as a group that was giving me a lot of trouble, or something like that. In lact, in that class, some of the girls were giving me a bit of trouble.

Int. Yes, so there were no obvious visible problems in their ...

Sr. U. No.

Int., .. . in their behaviour or ... What about their school ability, was there any marked difference between the ones that you knew had been victims and the others?

Sr. U. No. r don't know that they weren't working to their full potential, Scott Hallett was a bright boy, and he was very, what' II l say, he had a great sense of humour, but was a bit annoying, you know, to a teacher, but he was full of fun. That fellow was, you know .. .. he was a fun loving fellow. He had a lot of ability and I don't think he worked to his full potential. But he had a lot of problems in his home, that's why I kind of had a bit of leaning towards him. because he had a lot of problems,

Int. In terms of what?

Sr. U. ndmother and with his sister. Took her the whole day

me, you rea ngs and Scott came ofT second best. And uh, you know, 1 kind ofhad an understanding of that, and felt that we had a good relationship. And when he was the one who said he had told me and I couldn't remember, but when it was brought up by Troy Grant after that- somehow or other, I think it could have happened -you know what I mean?

Interview with Sr. Ursula II

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Int. Umm. From your observations or knowledge ofthe boys that you know apparently were victims, was there anything about the boys themselves or their backgrounds, which was a - pattern that could be picked on by Vince Ryan? ...... You said that Scott had it problems at home- what about the others?

Sr. U.

Int. REDACTED

Sr. U.

Int. Yes.

Sr. U.

Int.

Sr.U. Well, I always thought he lived with his grandmother, but later I also found out it was his mother, she was very upset about it. He was a troublesome lad in class. But 1 guess she was just being overprotective of him.

lnt. Well, let's have a look through the list ofMerewether boys that we, that have claimed or have had charges against Vince Ryan.

Sr. U.

Int. So there could have been a pattern of vulnerable boys?

Interview with Sr. Ursula 12

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Sr.U. Yes, very much so. Very much so, those that I named . Yes. REDACTED

definitely was a lonely kid, but it didn't make sense 'til you'd followed his history you know, his mother, it was all a bit of a shame. And Gerard had a father who wanted the right thing, come what may. He didn't display a lot of love, it was more to do with doing the correct thing.

Int. Umm, follow the line.

Sr.U. Yes.

Int. Was there any evidence that the problem was widely known amongst the children in the school?

Sr. U. Which problem?

Int. The problem with Vince Ryan.

Sr. U. No! no!

Int. So the children ....

Sr.U. If there was I didn' t pick it up and it couldn't have been all under cover. because. as I said, Phyllis- and only what she's told me later, the way she told me. I knew that something had happened, like being touched, but I had no idea.

Int. Umm

Sr.U. So, I did11't speak to anyone about that. The more I thought, well, Father Ryan had gone away to renew himself and the rest of it, and the Eight Commandment, I can't take away his character. I never thought that the victims were going through murder.

Int. Mm. So they weren't being picked on by the other sections of the class?

Sr.U. No, no, they were quite popular kids. Scott Hallett was the clown of the class, but everyone liked him. A very bright lad, but didn't put a lot into it. But I understand that, when he went home there was no home encouragement.

Int. Yes. You were interviewed by Troy Grant?

Sr.U. Yes.

Int. Did you make a statement to him?

Sr.U. Yes.

Interview with Sr. Ursula

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Int. Do you have a copy of that here?

Sr.U. I picked up a copy 1 think. One moment, I could have it, would you wait a moment?

Int. Sure. I'll turn the tape off for a minute. (Tape off, then restarted.) So we've got a copy of the Police Statement now. What was your opinion of the way in which Troy Grant questioned you?

Sr.U. Umm- it's hard to say, in terms ofwhat I heard since, but l felt that he,,he was very much on the side of the victims, completely, naturally 1 suppose, but uh, he would have liked me to say what he wanted to hear, 1 felt.

Int. So, you think he lacked objectivity, or a fair and open mind?

Sr.U. Well, I did . See, he asked me about Scott Hallett, and when he was typing it up, l said, "Willi put in about Scott Hallett?", 'cos l was so deftnite it hadn't happened and he said, "Oh, you know, if you want to you can." and l said, "Well, you asked me about it", and he said "Oh that doesn't make much di!Terence." And I did not put it in, and I'd feel much better if l had

Int. Then you had no actual recollection of it?

Sr. U. None whatsoever, but now its come- I kind of feel, well, did it, did it not I think it did, you know.

Int. Yes. You made an interesting comment about what you heard subsequently about Troy Grant.

Sr.U. Oh, well, he's almost a personal friend ofthe McDonalds- they can ring him any time- he's left the district now,

Int. Yes

Sr.U. He's gone out west somewhere, and he will ring them up still and they will contact him when they're down. And Scott Hallett was supposed to have attempted suicide and they rang him, oh he talked to Scott for a long time.

lnl. So he has become very personally involved?

Sr.U. Oh, very personally- l think. And his wife.

lnl. Umm, that's unusual step for a Police Officer

Sr.U. Well, I thought it was, but who's to know. And what has hit me- little things, like the wonderful memory Phyllis has of the exact words people used 20 years ago.

Interview with Sr. Ursula 14

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Int. This is Phyllis McDonald

Sr.U. Yes. Well I haven' t got that memory- I couldn't remember the exact words said at the time - I can't remember the exact words CND • told me, but she

Int.

has the exact words, and I have a feeling that our statements were shown to her.

Umm. What was CND role?

Sr. U. He was the father of ~i~m, and this is according to Phyllis. Umm, Vince Ryan had a number of altar boys in the sacristy, and lili1i'ti ran out crying. That's what Phyllis has told me, and that's when CND came down and saw Mons. Cotter. Now, I don't know if that's the way ....

Int. it happened?

Sr.U. .. .. it happened. No, I don't, I wouldn't like to say.

Int. So during the subsequent period that you were- when did you actually leave the school?

Sr.U. At the end of 1981

Int. m 98 1.

Sr.U. 6 years.

Int. So these boys had all well gone?

Sr.U. Well gone,

Int. Did you have much contact with them after you left the school?

Sr.U. Oh, they'd come out and play in the playground a bit, as kids do, or I'd see them afier Mass, on a Sunday evening.

Int. This is when they were adolescent?

Sr.U. Adolescents, yes.

Int. Did you observe any problems with their general behaviour, or behavioural problems?

lnte1view with Sr. Ursula 15

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Sr.U. No., except for Gerard and his father- like he'd go out to run or something and it 'd be "Come back here", that sort of thing. I fell , I just felt . it was only a feeling, but he was had a real disciplinarian. No, I saw Scott l lallett playing basketball there one day with his then girlfriend, a girl 1 had taught too. and we had a chat and he was full of fun. He definitely was a fun loving fellow.

Int. What caused his suicide attempt?

Sr.U. I don' t know, even Troy Grant said "Why would he do that?" It seemed it was just to make an issue.

Int. What about?

Sr.U. To be noticed, you know.

lnt Umm

Sr.U. But that was a good while later- he only tried to suicide after all this stuff had blown up -after the first Court case and before this compensation stuff

Int. What did he try to do

Sr.U. I'm not sure, but I wouldn' t suspect he tried very hard.

Int. And, have you had any, have they ever come back to you and spoken to you about those days?

Sr. U. Phyllis has been wanting me over there to talk, but she can only have me on a Wednesday because she doesn't want me there when Gerard's there, ' cos Gerard doesn't want anything to do with the Church or the Church 's representatives. And she rang one Wednesday- 'cos between you and I. I'm not a very competent driver looking for houses - 1 make excuses, 1 think anyone would in my shoes, to go on a wet day, and she rang another time but 1 was already committed. She has to give me notice, it can't be the day before, and she hasn't called back since, and I haven' t called her.

Int. Yes. Going back to that early period when you were at the school in '76, after you heard from Mrs. McDonald about what had happened, did you discuss the matter with any of the other teachers?

Sr.U. No.

Int. So there was no ....

Sr. U. She told me in confidence that Vince Ryan had done things to these boys. probably did the wrong thing, but I had no idea that the boys were victims to such a degree.

Interview wi th Sr. Ursula 16.

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Int. So, there was nothing on record to .. .

Sr.U. No., I have never seen any record.

Int. Now, you said that Mrs. McDonald has been instrumental in making reference to specific events?

Sr.U. Yes, she has been very clear.

Int. Yes. During the time that she worked with you, which was a period of about 4 years, is that it?

Sr.U. Yes

Int. As your Secretary, what were her proven abilities like, in terms of memory

Sr.U. Well, just ordinary, sometimes she'd forget to bring things to the school that she promised to bring and things like that, like other people. There was nothing extraordinary there.

Int. What about in terms of conversations and such like, did she ever, were you ever present when she said, "Oh, I remember saying, you saying that some time ago".

Sr.U. No., the memory for detail that she seems to be exhibiting now about what happened 20 years ago is, is surprising to me. Because she didn ' t so rt of have that kind of a memory that got things so perfectly. Now it seems to have become a memory that is so perfect.

Int. Crystal clear?

Sr. U. Crystal.

Int. Umm, very interesting. Okay, well that ' s all I need to cover at this stage. Thank you once again.

Sr.U. Thank you

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