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CHELSEA PICTURES, INC.
"HOLOCAUST DOCUMENTARY"
CLARA PRESENTATION
PRODUCER: (NOT IDENTIFIED)
TAPE #W5
CLARA:
09:35:12:12 Hi, everybody. It's an-- a usual place for
me. I love kids. I was teaching for 40
years. Full time teacher, in Roumania,
France, and America. My only free country.
The colors, you can see.
09:35:39:23 I went back as a substitute now, because I
still love kids. And after the tragedies
that I went through, you are the only ones
who will give me the hope that this freedom
that you have in United States, this quality
of life is going to last forever. And it's
never, never happened, the other ones that I
had.
09:36:06:16 I must admit that this is the group, the
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tenth grade, that inspires me. Because this
is when it happened. I was tenth grader,
when all happened. You can figure it out
now, how old I am. Anyway, I hadn't talked
about my Holocaust experiences after 1945,
`til `62, 1962. Seventeen years. Because I
think nobody will believe me. What happened
to me.
09:36:43:05 It wasn't a free country, Roumania. When I
returned from Auschwitz. When I came to the
United States, I started to talk to one
foreign guidance counselor (UNINTEL). Came
from Ukraine (PH). And we got friendly. And
he said, "Clara, why don't you speak up? You
will feel better. It's a treasure, what you
hold in yourself, to give to your students.
To talk about your Holocaust experiences.
You won't have nightmares any more at night.
You are going to-- to-- feel relieved of a
mission, that stays with you forever."
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Pg. 3
09:37:35:27 "When you promised to those who died next to
you, that you will speak up. Whoever
survived. Speak up. You will feel better,
so it never happens again." So, this is why
I'm here. Not because I want you to hear my
accent. Which is affected by seven
languages, but it's still there.
09:38:01:05 But the cause is so important. To rel--
relate. Or what I know. That you don't mind
my accent. You will not mind my accent. You
will understand, why do I speak and keep
talking about my Holocaust experiences. The
students, 10,000 that I reached like this--
encourage me with their letters, with their
suggestions, to continue and help them to
understand the world.
09:38:36:16 I came from a little town, maybe like North
Seron (PH), from Roumania. I didn't know
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that I will have a map. So, I'm going to
show you in a silk scarf, how does Roumania
look like. And then I will show you also on
the map. Because we have now, a map. And
this is Roumania. It looks like my scarf. A
little-- not a big country-- in Europe.
09:39:10:14 Unfortunately, when I was your age, it was
not Roumania. It was Hungary. And the
Hungarians gave out their population, and
deported their Jews. While the Roumanians
had ghettos in Roumania. So, I was in a
wrong time, a wrong place. A family of four,
only. My father, my brother, my Mom and I.
But we have-- we are 39. We were 39, in the
big family. Cousins, grandparents, and
uncles.
09:39:54:09 Of the 39, two of us, my Mom and I survived.
Everybody died. Seventeen cousins. I don't
know how many aunts and uncles. I was just
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Pg. 5
as innocent as you were. And I was in-- I
would say, seventh grade, in 1940, when there
were rumors. Rumors that-- the Hungarians
take over Transylvania. Transylvania is my
birthplace. You know about Transylvania.
And Dracula, is me. Don't I look it? Well,
I want you to smile now. So, it was--
Transylvania was a very rich county. It's
like Westchester.
09:40:45:17 And-- the Roumanians fought for it many
times. The Hungarians, they all wanted its
mountains, rivers. Natural richness of the
ground. And-- this time, because the
Hungarians were allies to the Germans, it was
simple signature. They gave Transylvania to
Hungarians. North Transylvania.
09:41:13:15 And with all that, the lords of-- the German
lords came in. And that was our fate. To
follow it. Why did they follow it? That
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was-- that was always a question. Why did we
go? Why didn't we rebel? It's a simple
thing. They had the guns. We didn't. They
had their secrets, of what do they want to do
with us. And we didn't know.
09:41:44:01 So, I heard my father and my mother talking
about, what's going to happen? Because now--
every day, some new rules came in. My-- they
took my father's business. He had a small--
shoe manufacturing and ready-made shoes. My
mother worked with him, in the business.
09:42:06:21 My brother was a talented pianist, who
studied in Budapest from the age of six, the
piano. He was blind on one eye. And--
because of that, all his senses, all senses
were so developed. His absolute musical
hearing. His hands-- he was a great pianist.
So, when my-- they took the-- the business
from my father. And the-- he couldn't be any
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more a manufacturer. Or what he earned, what
(UNINTEL) and my mother had from 1940, to
`44.
09:42:55:15 And the-- when the law came, that no Jewish
kids can go to school, to public school, that
was a real tragedy. But now, if you don't
feel well, and say, "Mom, I want to stay home
a day, just relax." Mom will say-- "Okay,
sweetheart. Stay home." But when you stay
home day by day, and you don't have school.
And you don't have the interaction with your
friends, with your teachers good or bad--
everybody can have a-- not so good teacher.
Sometimes you have a very good one.
09:43:36:12 You miss it. You miss your friends. You
miss your work. You don't even know that you
miss it. And that's what happened to us. In
1940, when I was a seventh grader, going to
eighth grade. They had to find a way. How
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Pg. 8
can our education stop at this age?
09:44:00:12 My-- my brother also. He went to Budapest,
back and forth, only come once a year home.
So, were-- it was a terrible time. They
founded a school, from kicked-out teachers,
because they couldn't get a job because they
were Jews. They had Master's degrees,
Bachelor's degree. Doctorate, whatever. But
they couldn't teach. So, very little money
that just kept them alive.
09:44:30:16 They came to be our teachers. Not in a
beautiful school like yours. It was a small
school. But all those who lived in
Transylvania, and had no school, we had a
place there. But I have to tell you that I
owe my base of my education, and my
aspiration to a better world, to this school.
The teachers, the children, the students,
the-- helpers, all were geared to show that
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Pg. 9
we deserve school. That we are just like the
others.
09:45:08:03 That we have to study. That without
education, it's impossible to live. So, this
school was accredited at a very high level,
school. This functioned only three years,
`til I was a tenth grader.
09:45:27:19 I went home in Christmas. Because this
school wasn't in my native town. I had to go
to a-- one where this school existed. And
poor parents. They had to support this
school, and my brother who went to Budapest.
I don't know how did they do it. But, the
school was the most important.
09:45:45:25 And they would see wh-- why. I went home in
Christmastime. To see my parents, to tell
them, how is the school. So, my father
asked, "Okay, what languages do you study in
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that famous school?"
09:45:59:08 And I said, "Well, Hungarian, Roumanian.
Hebrew, because it was a Jewish school.
Latin. French. And I st-- oh, yeah.
German. That was very important." And he
said, ":o-- so, what about English?" I said,
"Dad, I don't have-- (UNINTEL) to study
English. Where would I put it? How can I
include in my schedule?" There were no
computers that time. So she said, ":o,
what's wrong with afternoon or at night?"
09:46:33:04 "That's fine." "You just take English."
This is why I speak English today. So I
found a teacher, my French teacher knew
English also. And there was a group
immediately. Twenty. Who started every
second day, English. Seventh language. Or,
sixth. I'm sorry-- sixth. Because later, I
learned Russian.
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09:46:58:07 And this is what my father said. "Anything
that is your-- in your head, that's what you
keep. Nobody can take it away." And how
right he was. Whatever I learned in that
school stays with me forever. And gave me a
road, a philosophy, where to go and what to
do. But it only lasted `til 1944.
09:47:24:19 My h-- my brother was sent home from
Budapest. I-- I was schooled (UNINTEL) in
March 26th. It's very hard for me to talk in
May about these-- happenings, and events.
Because I lived, really, every day something
happened. March 26th, they sent us home.
They said, "No more school."
09:47:53:01 We saw the empty-- workshop of my father. We
saw how Mom aged from one year to another of
working hard, keeping the house, and helping
my father. We didn't know what's going on.
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My friends. Christians. Who did not
understand why can't we play any more sports
together. Why can't we go to a restaurant
together. Why we were completely isolated.
09:48:24:14 Wait `til you will find these friends, when I
came home. How they were really friends.
Not just showing. They were terrified. When
once in a while, I met them in the market.
Because even the market was restricted. We
could only-- go only a certain time, to the
market. After 10:00, when all the goodies
are gone. And you know, when you are a
child, you don't understand this. You are
born, like the others. You have played with
them. You-- you went to school with them.
You can't understand it.
09:49:00:22 So, anyway. Later, in April, we had to wear
a yellow star. Everybody knew everybody in
that little town. But still, to show that we
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Pg. 13
are un-- not like them. We felt like a
leper. You know? That, nobody wants to talk
to us. Nobody can talk to us.
09:49:23:18 I don't know how would have they be punished.
But if I talked once to one of my friends in
the street, next day she was reprimanded.
"You know she's a Jew." So she said, "Yeah,
so she's a Jew." And she was reprimanded. I
found out. So, it wasn't just that-- that--
they told not. They were reprimanded.
09:49:49:06 There were probably also those who went along
with whatever happened to us. There were
always evil people, that you have to change
to be good, in the new generation. Cuz
everybody's somewhere good in his heart.
09:50:05:14 So, in 1944, May third, finally all those
rumors, that we were taken away. We will--
work for the Germans in camps, in factories.
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Pg. 14
Whatever they need, because they have to win
the war. You know, they didn't-- they didn't
win the war. But they tried, with slave
labors. Not paying a penny. Giving very
little-- very little-- food for us.
09:50:36:00 My father did that for about three months,
already, in the country. But they said, you
might be taken to different places, where you
are needed. The only thing the-- that my
father didn't understand, and I woke up at
night before we were taken to a ghetto-- what
will they-- my grandmother, my two month old
cousin-- what would they do in a farm, with
these people? What would they work? What
could they contribute to the German Army, to
win the war? This was impossible to
understand.
09:51:14:26 They didn't ever think too much. May the
third, they took us in a ghetto. Now, you
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Pg. 15
have to know that-- what is a ghetto?
Isolated from everybody. Living in a brick
factory. Ten thousand people in one brick
factory. And from this classroom, they would
make, like, five sections cubicles. Where we
used to sleep, one near the other 16, the
family. You know. That was the brick
factory.
09:51:50:08 We had our food-- prepared on three bricks.
Not elaborated barbecue, like yours at home.
It was three bricks where we did our
cooking. And it's funny, on Passover, Jews
eat matzo (PH). And that's what we ate in
our ghetto. It's impossible to believe that
that could have happened. I don't know how
many thousand years ago. But it happened to
us. We had flour. We had-- water. We
brought from home some kind of yeast that we
(UNINTEL) won for (UNINTEL) every week, a
little piece. And we made matzo. And that's
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Pg. 16
what we ate.
09:52:38:21 In the ghetto, it happened something very,
very-- I said-- couldn't be worse. We didn't
have bathrooms. Toilets. For 10,000 people,
in the-- brick factory. So the youngsters,
like you and you, were chosen from a group,
do dig latrines. So, (UNINTEL) is
blackening. What was the last (UNINTEL),
nobody knew. It was a bathroom type of
thing. With a trench, like small trench.
09:53:17:13 Benches near it. And you did number one and
number two while people watching you. My
boyfriend-- I had a boyfriend. In tenth
grade, you are allowed to have boyfriends.
Was chosen for this job. He was a rebel. He
had a good head--
09:53:40:14 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
CLARA:
09:56:37:06 My boyfriend was smart, and rebelled. And he
TAPE #W5
Pg. 17
looked at the older people. Hungarians.
Gendarmes. It's like a policeman, but much
more involved in political actions.
09:56:55:23 And they were very rude, and very--
dominating. They did not hurt-- their word
came. So, he looked at this guy. My
boyfriend. And he said, "I won't do it.
This is not for people. This is sub-human.
Even a dog, if he does number one and two,
goes to a shade. Now, this is for people,
and it's-- it's summer. And it's-- no
hygiene. No nothing. This is impossible."
09:57:33:24 So. They chose two people from the group who
were there. And they hang him to a tree, to
set an example that all those who refuse to
an order given by the Germans or-- or
Hungarian government, then they should see
what happens to them. So, the two men hang
him to a tree. With his feet barely reaching
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Pg. 18
the ground. And we watched him.
09:58:10:22 And the person who was chosen to hang him was
my father. How would you feel? Seeing your
father, hanging your boyfriend to a tree, for
nothing. Just for trying to have some
rights, and not to do-- or explain. Because
he tried to explain, that this is sub-human,
what they are doing to us. After 20 minutes,
when he was tinted already, they cut him off.
Poured water on him. He survived.
09:58:47:19 But the scar that they left on me will never
go away. What could they do? I said, "They
cannot do anything worse than this. All the
rest is nothing." One of my uncles, who had
two sons and kids-- and his wife-- wanted to
commit suicide, in the ghetto already. He
said, "This is not life. Who knows what else
can they do."
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Pg. 19
09:59:14:24 All the you, the 39 members, got together.
And we convinced him, "Wait. We are still
together. They didn't separate us. We will
go somewhere. We'll work together. As-- as
long as we are together, nothing-- nothing
could-- could-- take our lives away." Cuz--
you know, hope is the strongest in the world.
As you live-- as long as you live, you have
hope. I always had.
09:59:42:28 My mother was motivated much more by her
faith. She believed in God. That God
couldn't-- couldn't do this to us. When in
the l-- in the-- after Auschwitz, when I said
to my Mom, "Mom. Does God see what happened
to us, to-- to-- to this tragedy?" She said,
"That's not God's doing. That's evil men.
And we have to change those evil men."
That's how her faith-- how strong her faith
was.
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Pg. 20
10:00:14:23 So, we stayed in ghetto for three weeks.
Rain or shine. We didn't do too much work
there. Just waited, when they call us to
leave. They told us three days before we
left that we are going to leave, and taken
away somewhere. No word where. When we saw
the train that was waiting-- I-- we didn't
know. We thought it was a transportation--
the cattle wagons. You have seen pictures in
Social Studies, The Night in Fog (PH). It's
a cattle wagon. We didn't think it was for
us. But it was. Seventy people in one
wagon.
10:00:57:22 I was again with my boyfriend, in the same
wagon. Who told me that he doesn't know
where we are going, and what will happen to
us. But I have more strength, and I can
cope, with my philosophy, a lot of things
that he won't be able. But if we are
separated, and we are not going to come back,
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Pg. 21
or wherever we go, I should stand up and be
proud what I am. And tell the world what
happened.
10:01:35:20 This was my first warning that I have to come
and tell my story. He never came back. But
in the wagon, we are together. There is only
one spot, like a garbage can in the wagon,
for 70 people. For cattle. Believe it or
not, for three days, I didn't go. Because my
boyfriend was there, and I was ashamed.
10:02:05:24 Little things, you think don't count. It's
terrible. Very-- humiliating. It's not only
that they did what they did physically. But
they humiliated my womanhood. My-- my
childhood was nowhere any more. From one day
to another, I came from a good life. Simple,
good life, to a terrible shock. When we got
to Auschwitz, for three days, four days, we
never know. We went to Auschwitz.
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Pg. 22
10:02:40:23 When we got to Auschwitz, and I saw written,
Auschwitz, bierkeno (PH). And I said-- I-- I
talk German. I said, "What is this?" And
one guard who was there, he said, "This is
Auschwitz. You'll never forget it. If you
can forget it." Who knew all these things?
I had no ideas. Gas chambers, or-- or
separating. Nothing.
10:03:08:03 Now, anybody who has seen Schindler's List.
Anybody? Did you-- you also. Okay. The
separation part, where they separate men from
women--
10:03:20:01 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
CLARA:
10:03:31:14 As I was telling you about the separation
scene in Schindler's List-- this is when I
lost--
(BREAK IN TAPE)
10:08:04;05 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
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Pg. 23
CLARA:
10:08:00;18 As I was telling you about the separation
scene in "Schindler's List," this is when I
lost my-- when I'm-- thinking of it, you
know, and I saw the film, it came back.
That's the worst thing that when I last time
I saw my father going to the left, and my mo-
- brother-- then the women to the right, old
people to the left, another column, another--
row.
10:08:30;04 Little children with mothers together to the
left. Had no idea what is this separation.
But by accident, Mengele (PH) who did that,
famous Mengele, who did the separation, my
mother was pushed to my side where all these
young girls were. The only older mother who
was 40-- 44 at that time.
10:08:54;12 (UNINTEL) very strong, very goodlooking, very
tall. And she was pushed to the right side,
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Pg. 24
and of course, she didn't understand.
Susan's mother is there. She told me.
Miriam's mother is-- I wanna go to that
group.
10:09:08;24 And we the kids who were in that (UNINTEL)
they pulled on her, and said, "Stay with us.
Maybe we have one mother, and they are going
to work somewhere else. Stay with us." So,
she was easily persuaded. She stayed with
us. This is how she survived. She lived
with me till she was 101.
10:09:34;05 But she survived the selection. And in that
group, all youngsters. We knew that that we
really can work. We didn't know what. And
then we saw at night, at 11 o'clock, the
smoke coming out from a big something. We
didn't know what was.
10:09:54;29 My mother said is-- is it show of (SIC) the
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Pg. 25
crematorium, because they don't have here
cemeteries. And somebody die-- I didn't know
what, would you know (SIC). You would know,
because you are much more educated. But I
didn't know what is a crematorium, that part
(SIC).
10:10:11;14 And she stayed with me and worked and worked.
They said th-- this time already an S.S.
guard with-- with arm on (SIC)-- with him.
We saw the wire-- fences. They told us not
to touch it, because that's electricity.
And-- This was all at night.
10:10:34;16 Before we reached one barrack, a huge barrack
when they said you are going to go to a
shower. After three or four days that you
are traveling from your country here, you
need a shower. Needless to say that you left
everything in the wagon, little luggage or--
like luggage where we had-- toothpaste and--
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Pg. 26
Toothpaste, no. We couldn't bring
toothpaste, because we could hide diamonds in
it.
10:11:03;19 So, toothbrush, they let us bring from the
ghetto. Some to-- Winter coats and whatever
fit in small luggage. If you go to
Washington museum, you can see all these
luggages in the museum, because they found
it.
10:11:23;08 And there we go to shower, and I told this
young lady, (UNINTEL) whose head (SIC) was
like mine. We went to the shower, and we had
to be pitch (SIC) naked. Everything behind
you. Nothing, except your shoes. In my
shoes, I had my boyfriend's picture in my
shoes. That's the only thing I had for two,
three months later.
10:11:51;15 And we went to shower. But we saw a line
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Pg. 27
standing in front of-- there were three, four
girls who cut, shaved our hair. And it was
my turn, and I saw this woman without any
feeling (SIC) cutting and then shaving my
head. I can't believe it. She sang while
she was doing this to me.
10:12:16;09 And I said, "How can you do that?" She had
hair already. But I'm doing it for two
years. I saw my pair of children, my-- in
my-- in front of my eyes. What do you think?
How can I be a dislike, if I wouldn't sing
sometimes. And she shaved my head.
10:12:35;27 When I went to my mother, she looked up
around. "Where is my child?" Your mom
recognize you without that long, beautiful
hair. I said, "If this happens-- what-- what
else can happen?" Plenty happened. We went
to a shower, and I make sure that my shoes
were not put in the disinfectant water,
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Pg. 28
because the water, everything had to be
disinfected. My-- our dresses and take--
couldn't take-- we couldn't take the
(UNINTEL).
10:13:13;21 And we came out. I still had the-- the
photography was there, his picture. Most of
the women couldn't even find their shoes, or
they had two left or two right. Or different
ones. But mine was different. My father
made it for me unique. The last time when I
saw him-- at-- in Auschwitz, I still think he
saved my life with my shoes, because that was
very, very important later on, you'll find
out.
10:13:50;12 So this was the beginning of Auschwitz. You
read about this. You know it was the most
terrible hell, if I could say this word, that
anybody can go through. For hours and days,
you would stand on roll call, and they were
TAPE #W5
Pg. 29
counting and they putting (UNINTEL) that I
don't have luckily, because I have only eight
days in Auschwitz. They took me for much
more important work. And I'm standing.
10:14:20;27 The food, nothing. Some kind of beef they
put in a-- kind of-- not rice. Grits. And
they brought in a garbage can, big can. And
everybody was running. We had a wooden dish.
With-- spoon. And we try to get to it, but
it was impossible.
10:14:48;16 The guar-- the girl-- the woman who was
giving us (UNINTEL) here and there, by the
time he got to us-- she got to us, we had no
food. And we went to the bottom of the can
and ate it.
10:15:02;27 At night, there was no-- of course, no
toilet. We had to go out, find some bush or-
- not bush, but some (UNINTEL). These are
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Pg. 30
things that I don't want to-- to talk about.
They are horrors. What is the most
important thing to learn from this, that you
have to cope with your inner-- hope and
ability to cope with difficulty.
10:15:28;14 If we did make the mistake that we do not--
we were not diligent enough to find out what
going around us, what can we do, but we were
so innocent. We-- We couldn't believe that
this would happen to human beings.
10:15:48;10 But if you see somebody lying on the sidewalk
sleeping or you don't know what happens,
maybe he is drugged, maybe he's sad and
(UNINTEL) because he didn't-- didn't have
what (SIC) to eat, maybe, don't just pass by.
Indifference is worse than anything else.
If you cannot help-- because you are too
little, too young, call somebody for help.
Do something about that person who is
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Pg. 31
(UNINTEL) who-- who-- who doesn't know what's
going on around.
10:16:23;27 We didn't ask enough questions. We took-- We
obeyed. That was our way of life, to obey to
grownups. So, Auschwitz--
10:16:37;22 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
(BREAK IN TAPE)
CLARA:
10:18:41;01 You know, if you think of all this death,
it's good to say-- to give you advice now
after so many years. But I don't know if I
were in your shoes now and this old lady
comes to speak about horrors and her
experiences, how would I react? What would I
feel?
10:19:04;12 But you have to be exposed to this. If I am
gone, I-- after Auschwitz, I thought I am
immortal. I will never die if I survive that
hell.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 32
10:19:16;14 Then when my husband died in an accident and
my mother died two years ago, I realized that
I am mortal too. So as much as I can, I will
do it for you people, so you wouldn't be
surprised, so you would-- have questions,
inquisitive questions. Look around what's
going around. Not just me, me, me, me.
10:19:45;04 You have to think of others. To feel
compassion for those who died. For those who
are dying, depressed or failed (SIC) in
something. And-- And simple-- simple-- c--
activity like one of my friends is (UNINTEL)
"What's wrong with her? Where is this coming
from? What can I do for her or him?"
10:20:15;12 I infer these listen-- little lessons for you
because I know you will connect to (UNINTEL)
and you will (UNINTEL) that I was right to do
that. From Auschwitz, finally on the eighth
TAPE #W5
Pg. 33
day, they-- we were selected again. You
don't know how I was trembling my mother
shouldn't be separated, because they loved to
separate sisters and mothers and daughters.
They didn't want that.
10:20:48;06 But they say somehow always that they didn't
recognize the (COUGHING) similarity or-- So
anyway, we were selected to go. Again, with
wagon. A little better wagon. Not seven
feet. Not cattle wagon, but-- a merchandise
wagon that took us from Auschwitz to Riga
(PH).
10:21:13;29 Everybody knows. Your teacher is here, so
she will know that (UNINTEL) Riga is in
Lithuania (PH), up in the Baltic Sea, where
we did a different job.
10:21:32;14 Now you have to know that Riga is a city, and
in the outskirts, (UNINTEL) which was like
TAPE #W5
Pg. 34
Auschwitz, but not an extermination camp,
just a concentration camp and a work camp.
We worked putting va-- in the barracks again,
but much better than in Auschwitz. In
Auschwitz, we didn't have-- if we had a
little rain, then the rain came through the--
the ceiling and that was our water.
10:21:59;06 But here it was neater, and the in-- the gu--
the woman we introduced who was our capo, she
said, "This is a nice place, not like your
dirty place at home."
10:22:10;01 So, this is how they talked to us. We
settled in that. Three in a bed. My mother
was with me, and another girl. Bunks. Next
day at six o'clock in the afternoon, we were
taken to a place that's called (UNINTEL)
Factory. The Germans did recycle that time
already. Big batteries, you know the ones
that we put in flashlights, we opened it.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 35
10:22:43;26 And at the table were 60 women, long table,
working near each other, separating the
aluminum from the-- copper, w-- the wires of
the-- of the batteries. And next day, that
inside is the (UNINTEL) became gun powder.
So the Germans want us to use that element
from there and put-- and form gun powder.
This is what we do from six o'clock at night
and the next day six o'clock. Twelve hours.
10:23:20;15 How would you feel in the tenth grade,
working at night from 12-- 6 o'clock next
day. Of course, at 12 o'clock, everybody's
head was on the table. We couldn't keep up
our heads. We couldn't keep open our eyes--
our eyes.
10:23:41;21 Now, I stop again here. Not every German was
bad. Not every one was a killer. They were
brainwashed. The ideology of Hitler was
TAPE #W5
Pg. 36
insurpassable (PH). But look at this woman
whom we had, and you see that you cannot be
prejudiced. Learn this from me.
10:24:08;11 Who can imagine-- You can imagine how I hated
the whole system. But when I saw a guy like
this who said one night when he saw the
sleeping habit already, forming habit, he
said, "That little girl speaks German. She
must sing German."
10:24:30;27 So, he called me to his desk, and I'm
scrambling. What is going to happen to me
now. He says, "Nothing wrong. This is all
right everybody, what you did. But you have
to sing." What? Sing.
10:24:42;25 At 12 o'clock when everybody gets tired and
sleepy, you have to sing some song, but it
must be in German. Again, my father, I was
lucky. He had an idea. He was a good
TAPE #W5
Pg. 37
musician, by the way. He had an idea that
every composition of a German or English or
Italian composer should be learned in
(UNINTEL) language.
10:25:12;27 He taught a little aria from "Aida." He
taught a little song from Mozart. A
Schubert. And I knew two songs that m--
That was my repertory (PH), because he said,
"You have to sing in German also." Romanian-
- Hungar-- Whatever. Have to have in your--
in that language.
10:25:34;03 So I started to sing. What else could I do?
And the people started to sing a long.
(SINGING) They didn't sleep, and he didn't
have to beat up anybody from the 60 women who
didn't fall asleep. He knew this that if we
don't produce that he has to beat us up and
poke with the first-- the second night the
poor lady who was Jewish, but she was ordered
TAPE #W5
Pg. 38
to poke us with the-- with a long-- stick to-
- to wake us up.
10:26:13;20 And this man had an idea. This is a German,
older (UNINTEL) who wasn't used in the army.
He was used to-- to produce for the army.
That's one example. But I have more and in
my book you have many that do not be
prejudiced. There are and were Germans who
wanted to help us. Not very many. But a
step (SIC).
10:26:46;01 This went on for two months. When the
Russians started to come out from their
country, it's right near the border where we
were in Riga, and they came every night. We
had ke-- We could see him-- them rather with
like a candlelight were-- were-- Have you
been to the opera? Metropolitan? You saw
those beautiful crystals (SIC). They are
coming down when-- when the performance--
TAPE #W5
Pg. 39
stops, when the crystals are coming and out.
10:27:19;18 That's how the candlelight of Russians-- not
candlelight, but-- playing (SIC) came. And
these are-- Oh my god, let them bomb us.
Let them do anything, but stop this type of
living.
10:27:33;16 Well, they frightened these people, and they
wanted to evacuate for our camp, because they
didn't want to leave-- to show the Germans--
the Russians what they did to us, because the
same thing, we didn't have-- we couldn't
wash, we couldn't-- eat properly.
10:27:52;09 They-- They used only our energy and then we
(UNINTEL). When we could not work, then they
had their way to let us die.
10:28:05;25 Three months, after three months, a guy came
to fix our machines in our factory. Very
TAPE #W5
Pg. 40
young mechanic. Jewish. But he was used
very well by the German efforts. He came and
he told me, 'cuz I-- as-- as I was there in
the 60-- among the 60, and I was known
already of speaking German.
10:28:31;01 And he came to me and said, "Tomorrow there
will be a selection. Watch out for your
mother. You-- She might be selected and
separated from you." He brought me a
(UNINTEL) paper, put some rouge on my mom's
face. My mom looked already pale-- of-- of
l-- losing weight. So, he warned me th--
warmed me that she might be separated. Stay
away from her, five lines behind her, so she
can-- she couldn't recognize the similarity
between you.
10:29:06;07 I see my mother in the row, all this five in
a row. And following the row call numbers.
Not names, you see. We didn't have names.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 41
She came-- They came close to her and ask her
how old is she. And she said, "Thirty-nine."
She was 44, 45.
10:29:30;09 The guy started to yell at her. "(UNINTEL)
to die. You want-- You don't want to serve
anymore the German Army. You want us to lose
the whole-- the war. You are not thirty-one,
and you tell me that you are thirty-nine?"
He lifted her terrible dress that we had--
you know, just one dress for 11 months.
10:29:51;11 Lifted her dress. "Look at her legs. Very
strong. Good. You stay where you are and
work for us. You don't want to be dead."
And I heard this five lines. She's saved
again. That was the second selection.
10:30:08;24 You see out of thousands women who-- who were
in one group, there were four mothers and
daughters together. Out of those four, two
came home, because (UNINTEL) to be with a
TAPE #W5
Pg. 42
mother, with a sister. We supported each
other.
10:30:30;06 I don't know how-- I wouldn't-- I don't think
I would survive, if she wasn't there. And
out of those four, two came back. One died
long time ago, and mom, two years ago. We're
strong people. With courage. With hope.
This was the family. You can only count on
your family (UNINTEL). Even your mom who
doesn't want to buy a new blouse today.
10:30:56;23 Yeah, we were-- That's another thing that
(UNINTEL). You don't know, and I wish you
never know, that you can live with one dress
from May 31st till January-- 30th maybe. One
dress.
10:31:19;19 No panties. No stockings in the winter.
Maybe in Stuttholt (PH) we got blankets.
Which covered us as the winter coat.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 43
10:31:34;01 So, when you go to your closet and see 40
blouses or tops and you say to your mom,
"Look, Julie, has a new blouse. I wanna new
blouse." If she cannot buy it, don't fight
it. It's possible with li-- to live with 20
blouses, with-- I don't know.
10:31:59;10 You want to be pretty, but don't make so much
emphasis on clothing, on-- Be happy with
little things. I would have been happy with
a soap for 11 months. Oh yeah, I forgot to
tell you that in Riga, I also got from this
mechanic a toothbrush, hardly used
toothbrush. That was a big thing for me.
Nobody el-- Somebody brought me, this German
brought me this scarf to cover my-- my shaved
hair-- head, rather.
10:32:37;18 Little things. Be happy what you have.
Enjoy it. That's my third lesson.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 44
10:32:47;16 After this selection, I was so happy. I
didn't mind anything. What would happen as
long as my mom is with me. Then we were
taken to Danzig (PH). A little farther than
Riga. A beautiful harbor. Beautiful. No--
the New York Harbor, but it's beautiful.
Beautiful.
10:33:08;03 We-- we didn't know that this was a harbor or
what, because on the ship, we were six person
in a bed, a bunk bed. It was a-- again, a
merchandise ship. I didn't even believe that
they won't get rid of us there in-- in the
ship, because we had to go three flights or
four flights up to get a little air.
10:33:29;26 The air came in one segment of the ship, and
if we could breath, okay; if not, we had to
go up and do the rest of it upstairs, if we
had to go to the bathroom. That was the
TAPE #W5
Pg. 45
ship.
10:33:45;09 But we were only for three, four days on it,
not even-- And then we ga-- came to this
harbor. Now this is where I lost the-- the
photography, because this was again a-- the
ph-- the photo from my boyfriend. This is
again a concentration camp that was called
Stuttholt. It was the third where we were--
10:34:08;27 Again, we had to undress. Again, we had to
be disinfected. And then we had to put our
shoes in the water, and then I took it out.
This was the end of the photo. But again, we
were lucky. (UNINTEL) in a concentration
camp like this, you don't do anything, you
just wait for a little food that they give
you. Poor mom went to have a little more,
because they said there was left in the can
and she was hit so badly in front of me. I
knew she did it for me.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 46
10:34:43;01 But that's what happened. If she wanted a
little more for me, then they hit her, slap
her, almost fell.
10:34:54;14 We were taken to another place from
Stuttholt. And this time is digging ditches,
anti-tank trenches. Six yards wide. Six
yards deep. And it was going like a trapeze
(PH) in the middle ver-- very small, but when
the t-- tanks, Russian tanks would attack,
these will pour into the trenches. This is
what we did from-- Aug-- September.
September, November, till January the 31st.
(OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
CLARA:
10:35:38;16 Fro-- In this place there we made the anti-
tank trenches. Around November, it was
terrible weather already. This is in East
Prussia where we were now, up north, snow,
rain, whatever it was, always, we were still
TAPE #W5
Pg. 47
digging. The ground was already hard
sometimes, frozen. We still digging.
10:36:08;17 There comes a young man like you. A
supervisor. Because they are-- Of course,
they won't use for this work, only an
engineer who-- drove-- drew the-- the lines
of the anti-tank-- o-- of the trenches.
10:36:23;27 And young boy, so-called Hitler Jugen (PH).
Sixteen years and up. Up to seventeen. They
supervise our work. I don't think they had
arms. They had sticks. They could beat you
with (SIC). Like a baseball bat.
10:36:43;22 He comes one day and from-- my mother was
out. She was-- shoveling back ground that I
threw up with my stake that I get in the
bottom (SIC). Up. You know there-- And she
was working. But she was already-- She lost
I don't know how many pounds. She was weak,
TAPE #W5
Pg. 48
and she probably fall down (SIC). And this
guy comes there, and said, "You old bag. You
work faster. You eat our-- dinner. You eat
our food. You don't want to win the war?
You slow down? You work?"
10:37:25;24 And she-- he starts to beat her with that bat
(UNINTEL). I said, "I can't (UNINTEL)
anymore. I am without my family. I live
like an animal. I h-- don't have ever
anything enough to eat." I got out from that
trench, and I say to him, and I said, "Stop
that. You know? She's my mother. She works
here from morning till sunset. With the food
that you give in the morning, you don't give
the-- the pig that cereal that they give in
the morning. Coffee, that was only brown,
but it wasn't really any energy in it.
10:38:11;01 "At night, a soup where I could see only the
peels of the potato. They call it potato,
TAPE #W5
Pg. 49
but-- And you dare to hit my mother like
this, to force her to work faster?" He
looked at me flabbergasted. He didn't know
this-- lady here, how can she stand up for
her mother?
10:40:01;14 So, I saw his-- his surprise, and I said to
him, "Don't you have a mother?" And then he
was all red. Stopped beating my mom and
disappeared.
10:40:16;28 All the girls who worked with me in the
trenches. "You see what will happen. They
are going to kill us. They are-- He is going
to bring the S.S., the black S.S. who were
our guards, and-- and you know what they can
do."
10:40:31;00 The whole night I didn't sleep. My mother
was crying, "Why do you do this? I could
have survived. He would have stopped
TAPE #W5
Pg. 50
anyway." Never mind. The next day, the boy
came back. He brought me a carrot. And he
said, "Eat this. There is some vitamins." He
brought me a half of a cigarette. He said,
"Smoke this. You will be less hungry." I was
plenty hungry. A cigarette doesn't take out
the hunger.
10:41:01;04 But the thought that this boy was reachable,
this boy could change from one day, another,
gave me the hope that not everybody was
(UNINTEL). And everybody can be reached.
And the most evilest of Hitler (SIC), the
most evil man can change, if you show him
humanity. If you show feelings. If you
bring him down to humanity. Not a dogma that
he learned: He has to hit the Jew.
10:41:37;12 He work-- She go slowly, then he has to hit.
He disappeared and never came back. He
either gave up this work, I don't know. This
TAPE #W5
Pg. 51
went on to January 21st when we still were
digging. Then we heard every night the
Russians are coming. The-- The-- The m-- The
gunfires and those kind of things, and they
decided again to evacuate our camp.
10:42:05;25 Out of thousands women, there were only 115
(SIC) who would be able to walk January 19
and go somewhere where they cannot reach us.
Now, I have to tell you this story, because
then you understand what is a birthday
present.
10:42:23;27 On January 19th, on my birthday, they made
the last roll call outside who can go and who
have to-- has to stay behind in the camps
with the other bad people who died, we
couldn't bury them. My mother came up with a
little package and gave it to me. "This is,
my darling, your birthday present." Birthday
present in camp.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 52
10:42:53;27 In a old newspaper, there was three slices of
bread with a little margin, and it was in
layers. It was (UNINTEL). So it looked
bigger. And that's your birthday cake. I
opened and I saw it. "Mom, where did you get
the bread?" Three slices of bread. That's
three day's ration at night. I said, "You
didn't neat last night, your bread. And
night before. Mom, I could eat the stone, I
was always so hungry."
10:43:39;13 She didn't eat for three days to be able to
make a birthday present to her daughter.
See. After 50-some years, I still cannot--
cope with this scene and scenario. (SIGH)
10:43:59;23 We started to walk for two days. Some died
in the Death March, because they couldn't
bear it, walking. Finally, we stopped in a--
a barn, arrange type of thing when the
TAPE #W5
Pg. 53
Germans left or Polish. I don't know what
was that time.
10:44:20;10 And we stopped in a farm. Most of the people
went in the stable with-- some pigs were
there and some little animals. There was
only one cow. And those 150 people went
there, and some of us were taken to the
kitchen to cook for the Germans (UNINTEL).
And we overheard the conversation.
10:44:42;18 And the conversation, another German who got
for us without knowing that it's for us.
They said, "What do we do with these people?
The Russians are coming." He said-- one
said, one of the black S.S. said, "Let's burn
them in the stable, because there's enough
straw there and they will die."
10:45:07;13 This old guy said, "Okay. That's impossible.
The whole thing will stink, and we cannot do
TAPE #W5
Pg. 54
that." "Let's shoot them," said another guy.
This guy said, the older guy said, "No.
That's stupid. I need the bullets for me, to
protect myself. Let's leave them here. Let
them die where they are in the middle of
nowhere, but let's take off."
10:45:33;09 Next day, we woke up without black S.S. guys
in the middle of nowhere. We came home,
walked home from East Prussia to Romania
which was-- was Romania now in 1945. I don't
know how, but we walked. I was sick, but--
Russian soldiers tried to rape us. The
soldiers were in the war for four years. My
mother protected me.
10:46:05;19 When we came home, and I found my friend that
was my biggest surprise. They came like
they-- like I never have left. And one of
them, like you, next day when we came home,
she had in her hand a navy blue dress. "This
TAPE #W5
Pg. 55
is your sweet sixteen dress, Clara, that I
saved from the truck of the German trucks
that they left your house. And I put it
down, I put among my-- my dresses, because I
knew you would come back."
10:46:43;02 Another boy hid my accordion. He put the
accordion in three months in the ground, and
he took out, the box was in shambles, but he
brought my accordion, because he hoped and
believed that I will return. These were
friends, Christians who didn't know the
difference. And I don't want you to know the
difference.
10:47:07;18 We are all born equal. We are blonde and
brown. She's red head. I don't have any red
head. But we are all people. We have our
differences. We respect the differences. My
religion, your-- you are a-- more giving.
She's less giving. But we are all human
TAPE #W5
Pg. 56
beings. Protect each other. Trust each
other and have to grow up in good society.
10:47:47;01 And thank you for listening. (APPLAUSE)
(UNINTEL) myself.
MODERATOR:
10:48:07:15 I know it's very late. But-- we want to give
you all at least a couple minutes opportunity
to speak with Mrs. Knopfler (PH). And we
would love to know how you feel about
anything that she's said. If you came in
thinking about something one way, and after
listening to her, think or feel differently
about something? Has she caused you to feel
something new? Do you have any questions
you'd like to discuss with her? Or anything
you would just like to say to her.
FEMALE VOICE:
10:48:37:23 They-- they have to come back from--
MODERATOR:
10:48:40:12 Yes. We'll give you a minute.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 57
FEMALE VOICE:
10:48:40:20 A-- a-- a nightmare.
MODERATOR:
10:48:41:25 Yes. Right.
FEMALE VOICE:
10:48:42:29 You know. Been through a tragedy.
(OVERTALK)
MODERATOR:
10:48:45:09 Yes. As she tells the story-- she lived it.
So.
FEMALE VOICE:
10:48:50:24 Never mind how many times.
MODERATOR:
10:48:53:12 So.
FEMALE VOICE:
10:48:54:23 But in a smaller group-- you know, you feel
more intimate-- and you-- you can lose--
MODERATOR:
10:49:00:06 Yes. But that's--
FEMALE VOICE:
TAPE #W5
Pg. 58
10:49:01:15 You know, if you-- it's a big group, then
it's possible to hide a little feeling. In a
smaller group-- they're human beings, like
me.
MODERATOR:
10:49:09:17 Right.
FEMALE VOICE:
10:49:11:05 So they would understand.
MODERATOR:
10:49:11:12 Of course. And they do understand. And I
think they're very appreciative that you did
share your feelings. So, would we'd like to
do is, if you would raise your hand. (BEEP)
We're gonna come around with a boom. Raise
your hand, we'll-- we'll acknowledge you.
And then--
FEMALE VOICE:
10:49:26:18 Any question you want. Any question, you
can--
MODERATOR:
10:49:29:14 Or feedback you would like.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 59
FEMALE VOICE:
10:49:30:11 Feel-- feel.
MODERATOR:
10:49:33:08 And we'll come over to you with the boom.
And then Bob, the Director of Photography,
will go like this when it's okay to talk. We
just need to get the mic by you, so that it
will hear you. Okay? Please don't be put
off by the mic. (LAUGHTER) Just be
yourselves. Thank you. So-- would anybody
like to say anything? Just raise your hand.
Sure. So, just give us a second to get over
to you.
10:50:02:22 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
QUESTION:
10:50:11:02 What makes you choose to relive this? If
telling it is so hard, why do you put
yourself through that kind of pain all over
again?
FEMALE VOICE:
TAPE #W5
Pg. 60
10:50:17:20 It's a very good question. The reason is,
that I do it for those who cannot speak out.
Remember when people died next to me? And
we looked at each other-- they had all kinds
of sickness, like typhoid fever, diarrhea,
all kinds of-- in these circumstances. And
they said, "Whoever survives, speak up.
Don't let it happen again."
10:50:45:10 We didn't know who will survive. But anybody
who did. And I suppose in the beginning, I
couldn't spo-- speak for a long, long, time.
But in a country like America, to deny my
experiences, to make a better world, it would
be a crime. And I feel, actually, better
since I've spoke up.
10:51:08:21 I did-- I hope, if I reach, out of 32, eight
people who will be more compassionate with
young and old. Who would understand to-- not
to be prejudiced. Who will understand to be
TAPE #W5
Pg. 61
courageous, and stand up for what you believe
in. Then I reach my point. But it is a good
question.
MODERATOR:
10:51:35:25 Anybody else want to tell her something, or--
10:51:44:01 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL
OMITTED)
QUESTION:
10:51:49:05 When you came back to your home after your
experience or whatever, did the friends that
brought your things back to you, did they
really not have any idea what happened to
you? They--
FEMALE VOICE:
10:51:59:09 Had no idea. Had no idea. Be-- yeah. But
then, when I came home, I related some
things. But I told you, I could not speak
too much.
10:52:12:17 Because I didn't believe that they would
believe. They were friends, and I have to
TAPE #W5
Pg. 62
tell you that I still keep up with those who
are still alive, in Europe. Packages, and
whatever I have. Because they have a very,
very-- poor life, in Communism, to live-- is
not a picnic, either. It cannot be compared
what I went through.
10:52:38:09 But, these people-- were-- were very helpful,
good with me. And I think I consider them
real friends. Yeah. Good question.
MODERATOR:
10:52:51:09 How about right here?
10:52:55:02 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
QUESTION:
10:53:07:25 Had you not gone-- what you went through, do
you think you would have been a different
person?
FEMALE VOICE:
10:53:12:28 I would have not so much courage. I would
have been-- more selfish. I would not
understand, probably, what is-- motherly
TAPE #W5
Pg. 63
love, so much as I do.
10:53:34:20 There would have been a lot of-- and I would
have a-- a childhood. You know, that I-- did
not have. I came home, and I had to start
from tenth grade. In three months, I made up
the tenth grade. Eleventh, twelfth. I
wouldn't be able to do that, if I-- if I
hadn't-- and-- and maybe-- maybe, it made me
a stronger person. Maybe. I don't want you
to go through-- anything like this to be
stronger. You can be by hearing the past,
and the bad experiences. That's enough.
Yeah.
MODERATOR:
10:54:11:25 How do you feel about what she said?
(UNINTEL) a question? How did it hit you?
What is your response to it?
QUESTION:
10:54:18:28 I have a question.
MODERATOR:
TAPE #W5
Pg. 64
10:54:19:19 Absolutely.
10:54:20:25 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
QUESTION:
10:54:34:03 During your experiences, did you ever find
yourself questioning your faith?
FEMALE VOICE:
10:54:37:16 Yeah. I did. I left my God for a short
time, when my mother was hit by chance. I
said, "Where is God?" And I lost when I
found out about the gas chambers. I asked my
mother, who never lost her faith. When we
heard statistics. That 1 million five
hundred children died in gas chambers.
10:55:11:20 And I asked my Mom, "Where was our God? Your
God?" And she said very strongly and calmly,
"That's not God. That's the evil people.
God made one mistake. That's-- he gave us a
choice, how to live. Didn't tell us, `You be
good, this, this, this.' But we have to
change." "You-- Mom, you can't change the
TAPE #W5
Pg. 65
world." "Well, everybody should contribute a
little."
10:55:40:27 And you know, when the German television
asked my mother, how come that she's so
strong, and she can talk about this. And
she's alive. And she said, "You know what?
I have a grandson. I have two great
grandchildren. And you know what? This is
the punishment to all those who thought they
can annihilate a people. We are here to
stay. That keeps me alive. Now I have two
great-grandchildren. Our future will go on
and on." This is what she said. So, I-- I
had my faith back, to God. That's a good
question.
10:56:32:15 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
FEMALE VOICE:
10:56:35:08 It's easier for them.
10:56:40:02 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
QUESTION:
TAPE #W5
Pg. 66
10:56:48:15 I just wanted to know, what did you and your
mother do once you returned home, and-- to
start (UNINTEL)?
FEMALE VOICE:
10:56:53:16 Do you have a hard question. After two
weeks, coming home, and found nothing but my
piano was too heavy for the Germans to carry
on a truck-- we started a new life. First
the neighbors helped us. Then friends came.
And then I decided that I had to work.
10:57:18:00 I was 18 at the time. I went to the town
hall and worked. Not for money. For flour.
For butter. For soap. And very little
money to live on. Those times were after the
war. It wasn't even finished, the war. I
came home in April, and the war ended May
eighth, legally.
10:57:42:20 So, I started to work. Then my mother
started to bring back a-- a (UNINTEL) of--
TAPE #W5
Pg. 67
business, and-- something-- I don't know.
But in September, the Americans-- brothers of
my father started to send vitamins, food.
And slowly, we-- started to work.
10:58:09:17 And I went to college. I went to high
school, without one penny of paying. Any--
anywhere that was-- that was the Communist
era. That was the only good thing. But it
was a good question. From the stretch.
10:58:26:07 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
(SKIP IN TAPE)
11:01:00:24 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
QUESTION:
11:01:05:20 Well, I guess especially with all that's
going on in the world and everything,
sometimes it's hard to maintain a perspective
that everyone is essentially, there is some
goodness in everyone's heart. And I just
think it's amazing, when I-- to hear you
speak. And to know that you still have faith
TAPE #W5
Pg. 68
that like, there is goodness in every
person's heart, after all that's happened to
you. (UNINTEL)
FEMALE VOICE:
11:01:27:25 I hope you feel-- what you said. Because
after September 11th, again, our hopes were
taken back. How could this happen to us? My
experience, combined with this, what happened
now, gives me more courage. And you have to
feel more courage to fight all this.
11:01:52:21 Whenever, and whatever level you can-- you
know-- cuz you don't have-- guns. And you
don't have-- anything that-- that could, in a
block. But the good-- just the first step
is, what is good, and what is bad. And
actually, you can learn that from the fourth
or fifth debate already. Or even earlier.
And you don't put your hand on the fire.
11:02:20:24 You know what's right or wrong. You have to
TAPE #W5
Pg. 69
feel it. You have to feel it. It's not
logically, or rationally. Feelings are very
important.
11:02:37:05 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
QUESTION:
11:02:47:12 Did you feel that there were already like,
warning signs? Or, did you feel that they're
like-- you felt, and then could have
happened, that you could have-- like, moved
away, or gone-- or done something that
wouldn't have-- this wouldn't happen?
FEMALE VOICE:
11:02:57:25 In my situ-- in our situation, was not too
much to be done. As I said, secrecy was
terrible. Sometimes we'd-- the radio was
taken away from us. We have not news. I
haven't seen a newspaper for many months and-
- and-- you know, it was terrible.
11:03:17:27 But in your case, where you are, you have a
press. You have the TV. You have the
TAPE #W5
Pg. 70
computer. Keep your eyes open. You have
much more-- I-- I couldn't-- I don't think I
have-- I could have done something that--
that could prevent it. There was only one
case when I could have done differently. And
I don't regret it, that I didn't.
11:03:48:07 A cousin from the mountains came to my
father. And he said to me, "Listen. If you
go to work, they are-- they are taking you to
work-- leave this girl with me. She looks
like my daughter. She looks like my family.
I could hide her." I could have said yes.
And I said, "No. I go where my family goes."
11:04:13:16 This is one thing that relates to you-- to
your question. I could have done this. Now,
I don't think that I-- I would be happier.
But at least I was with my Mom all the time.
And I felt in the ghetto, the family
together-- and-- that's the only thing. I
TAPE #W5
Pg. 71
could have-- because from the ghettos, two
people escaped under a coach.
11:04:45:13 And-- they survived. So, maybe-- maybe, I
could have done that, too. I didn't try.
You can have a lot. I didn't know anything.
Innocent. Maybe stupid.
11:05:06:08 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
QUESTION:
11:05:17:19 Do you hold any resentment against the
Germans?
FEMALE VOICE:
11:05:22:04 For a long time, I said, "Germans." You
know, like a black plague about me. Then
later, I realized how nowadays, responsible
are they of what a crime they did.
11:05:39:20 You know that some of the students, German
students, go to Israel to see those people
who are (UNINTEL) and their children. They
don't know how to make up. For them.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 72
11:05:57:19 This is what changes my mind. I had
students, Germans, who came to this country.
And in the beginning, I was afraid. Would I
be biased? I taught French for-- and Latin,
for many years. In (UNINTEL). And I wanted
to get rid of that feeling. I don't want to
be biased. I want to be fair.
11:06:22:03 Because that child is not responsible, what
her grandfather did. So, as I said, ev--
even in my story, don't be prejudiced. Take
the person, of what he is. Or she is. To
hate is terrible. It's hate for the one--
for-- the one who hates, and the person whom
she hates. It's terrible.
11:06:51:20 I don't want to learn that word. It's born
with-- envy. It's word with-- why does he
have, and I don't. Why-- it's-- it's usually
material. But you have to go over the "if"
TAPE #W5
Pg. 73
things. The-- more animal. It's not human.
We could be good. We can be good.
11:07:20:04 So, I don't think that I-- I am-- if I recall
the 1944, I think of as black, as-- I don't
think of their children or grandchildren, as
Germans. Killers. Good question.
MODERATOR:
11:07:42:04 This young lady right here.
11:07:49:14 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
QUESTION:
11:07:53:13 When you came back, and you saw all your
friends, what did you tell them? Did you say
anything about what happened?
FEMALE VOICE:
11:07:59:09 I started to say some things. But you know,
they are-- they were so far away from
reality. And I also was afraid that I would
be isolated again. What kind of person I am,
who had life in concentration camp. Who-- I
never talked about this thing.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 74
11:08:20:16 Because in a normal life, it's impossible to
believe it. Later, when-- you know what?
When I went back, visiting them from America,
in 1965, and one of my friends-- this one who
was-- she had already five children. What
can I tell my children? I-- I am ashamed of
my community, who did not find out more,
where are you going, and what can we do
about-- your leaving?
11:08:53:28 You know, it's interesting that in a Catholic
school, I was talking about my experiences.
A sixth grade-- boy stood up. And he also
wrote me a letter. "Mrs. Knopfler. What can
I do, if another Hitler comes?" And he wants
all Catholics to be taken to a concentration
camp. Extermination camp. "And I'm
separated from my father. And my mother." I
felt sorry for the kid. You know? And I
said, "Just one thing." See what's right and
TAPE #W5
Pg. 75
wrong.
11:09:30:21 I-- in the sixth grade, you can't tell
already, who is prejudiced. Whom do you have
to-- teach feelings, or-- or-- or bring up to
reality? This was a little boy. Sixth-
grader. And then he wrote me a letter. I
have about 2000 or more letters that students
relate to me. And he told me that-- he
really felt that I helped him. So. But. I
hope-- I hope that I can help some people.
MODERATOR:
11:10:07:19 Somebody else? (UNINTEL)
11:10:12:25 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
QUESTION:
11:10:28:03 I know that you said you had no resent
(UNINTEL)-- well, eventually you didn't have
any--
11:10:33:14 (IRRELEVANT MATERIAL OMITTED)
QUESTION:
TAPE #W5
Pg. 76
11:10:49:22 I know that you said eventually you didn't
have any resentments (UNINTEL) the Germans on
a whole. But, do you ever feel any
resentment for the Americans or any of the
Allied parties who didn't intervene sooner to
stop it from happening? Or, (UNINTEL) think
about that?
FEMALE VOICE:
11:11:03:22 Now, I am more afraid. You know, than--
than-- (UNINTEL). I am afraid that our
freedom here, our good (UNINTEL) America is
the first country where I felt free, and not
from anybody.
11:11:22:20 If our peace can be interrupted, with these
evil guys, that they did-- then what can we
do? We have to double our-- double, triple
our vigilance. And watch their schools.
Everybody's schools. What do they teach in
those schools? From the beginning. We have
to stop this at the very beginning of our
TAPE #W5
Pg. 77
child's growing up. Those who come from
Iraq, and from-- the only way, if we know
what they are doing, what-- in-- they intend
to do. Don't forget that these people were
in our schools, learning about airplanes.
11:12:09:13 Did we do enough? I don't know. I don't
think we did enough. What are their
intentions? Because they might study for
American good. They-- they might. They are
people who do that. But we have to watch.
Everybody who learns in our school-- the
school is the focus of our education. And
what a way to go. That's what I will do.
That's what we are doing here. You are my
future.
MODERATOR:
11:12:43:28 I'm curious. Do you feel the Allies did
enough for people like Clara? What are your
feelings about the British, and the Americans
and the Russians? Do you-- do you have any
TAPE #W5
Pg. 78
feelings about their participation, or lack
of participation, and-- helping all the
people who were in concentration camps and
extermination camps? Because as we know now,
they really didn't do very much. In fact,
they tried to keep Jews and immigrants out of
this country on purpose.
11:13:18:15 So, having heard a story like Mrs.
Knopfler's, what do you feel about the Allied
participation, helping to save their life, or
even allowing them into the country? They
stopped them. And-- (UNINTEL) feelings about
that?
11:13:45:02 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
MALE VOICE:
11:14:03:12 I think that the Allied powers recognize that
they didn't do enough during World War Two.
And so right now, we are intervering (SIC)--
intervening in other countries, like Bosnia,
so that it doesn't happen again.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 79
11:14:21:01 And they recognize that what they did was
wrong. And so they're being more receptive,
and taking a more active role so that it
doesn't happen again.
FEMALE VOICE:
11:14:33:10 So, you believe in learning the history.
QUESTION:
11:14:37:15 Yeah.
FEMALE VOICE:
11:14:38:25 If we don't have a past, we don't know our
past, we don't know what to do in present and
in future. And that's my point, too. They
could have done much more for us. They knew
more about us, that they could help.
11:14:58:00 Somehow, the war made me change-- I don't
know what excuse can I find. But-- there is
possibility for co-existence, and help each
other, without pushing-- people. A-- a group
of people, to the breach. I (UNINTEL).
TAPE #W5
Pg. 80
Yeah.
MODERATOR:
11:15:25:26 We all know that everybody in this country,
Roosevelt (UNINTEL) Roosevelt and the State
Department, had information as early as `42
and `43 about everything that was happening.
And that we had the State Department
(UNINTEL) keeping out immigrants. Because
they said that we don't have a Jewish
problem, and we don't want one.
11:15:46:21 So, that's just something to think about.
People like Mrs. Knopfler went through what
they did-- (UNINTEL) our state's-- policy.
And many people in this country, I'm sure you
know this, were isolationists. They did not
want immigrants. They did not want Jews.
Anybody else?
11:16:12:11 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
QUESTION:
11:16:20:21 When and for what reason did you come to the
TAPE #W5
Pg. 81
United States?
FEMALE VOICE:
11:16:26:00 I want to get out of that country. That was
one reason. First, because they kept
reminding me of what I went through. Even--
if not my friends. But I still felt an anti-
Semitic-- rejected an-- anti-Semitism.
Because according to the-- Communistic laws,
there is no difference between people.
11:16:52:22 And-- but I felt, still, anti-Semitic.
Because of my background. And then, we tried
to go to Israel, where some acquaintances
were, who survived. And the Egyptians
stopped that. Because they thought we were--
Israel will be too strong if we come, and
build up the country. This is politically.
So we couldn't come.
11:17:24:08 I had some surviving-- relatives, who went
long time ago to France. And they sent us an
TAPE #W5
Pg. 82
affidavit. And we were very happy. We went
to France, and lived there for a year. Then
Kennedy-- in the time of Kennedy, there was a
law that whoever lost his family in those
circumstances, and has some family in the
United States, we might come, with their
help. And of course, this was my dream.
Even though I studied in France, my
profession was France-- I admired their
culture. But I felt much more-- attached to
America. And whatever I read and studied
about it.
11:18:15:07 To come here. I had my disappointments,
when I came. But I still think that this is
the be-- best country in the world. This was
my choice. So, I wasn't born like you, in a
beautiful country. I chose this country, if
you could.
11:18:31:28 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
(BREAK IN TAPE)
TAPE #W5
Pg. 83
QUESTION:
11:31:43;10 What do you feel your students get from
listening to a survivor speak? Listening to
Clara, you said-- let's make it Clara, that
they get from you, or a book, or a film, or a
trip to a museum? What do they get from
(INAUDIBLE)?
FEMALE VOICE:
11:32:02;12 Well, I think that-- they get so very much
more than I could ever give them, or a book,
or anything of-- any of nature. They're
hearing something from somebody directly who
went through this experience.
11:32:16;05 And no matter how I try to explain it, I
didn't experience it. But Cl-- but Clara and
the other survivors did. And I find that
students really relate very well to that,
that they-- they can feel it more, because
they know it's somebody speaking from their
own true experience.
TAPE #W5
Pg. 84
11:32:31;04 And it-- it truly has an impact. I've seen
it for 20 years. So it-- it just makes all
the difference in the world for them. And we
tend to-- emphasize so much the importance--
especially in history, of looking at a
primary source. And certainly the survivors
are primary sources.
11:32:51;11 And-- they-- our students are lucky that at
least they have the opportunity to hear them.
One-- even if it's just once in their life,
hopefully it'll be more than that.
QUESTION:
11:33:04;12 How has Clara and-- whomever else (INAUDIBLE)
contributed to affecting your life? And we
can talk about (INAUDIBLE). And the lives of
your students? And any particular student,
and yourself.
11:33:20;18 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
FEMALE VOICE:
TAPE #W5
Pg. 85
11:33:23;05 Well, I think since-- one of the things-- and
it's interesting. I-- I had spoken to my
superintendent about the filming today. And-
- she said, "Do you realize that-- brothers
and sisters of the students you have now have
been impacted by the survivors that you've
had to speak to the students?"
11:33:39;29 And you don't-- you know, you do it every
year because it's what you feel in your heart
(HITS MICROPHONE) is the right thing to do,
and what you really, truly believe in. And--
and then you hear that, and you realize,
"Yes, it's just-- it's-- it's continuing over
and over and over the years. It's made-- it
really has made a difference."
11:33:53;26 And it's something that a sister will tell
their brother. "Listen, I-- I heard this
gentleman speak," or, "I heard this woman
speak. And you're gonna learn so much. And
TAPE #W5
Pg. 86
you're gonna have a firsthand account of what
happened."
11:34:06;23 And-- so I have no doubt in my mind that it's
made a difference. In my own life-- it
certainly has made a big difference-- from
the first time I heard-- the first survivor
that I hear speak, Jack Pollock (PH)-- over
20 years ago now-- I have become more and
more immersed in the subject.
11:34:24;07 And I really think that it's impacted me on a
day to day basis the way I live my life. At
least the way-- or try to live my life, I
should say. Hopefully, it-- it-- has
affected me in that way, and it shows in my
teaching, and it shows in the way I treat
other human beings-- and the way I like to
see other people treated.
11:34:42;18 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
QUESTION:
TAPE #W5
Pg. 87
11:34:43;20 Is there anything that you would like to say?
11:34:50;00 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
FEMALE VOICE:
11:34:54;13 All I can say is thank you. Thank you for
being willing to tell us what you really--
feel and what you've been through, and your
willingness to talk to us. And-- because of
you, (VOICE BREAKING) we have--
understanding, some little understanding, of
what happened.
11:35:07;07 And hopefully it's gonna make us-- better
people for it. I don't-- I-- I always try to
put myself in a person's position, and
whether I could be that strong enough to do
it. And I don't know if I could. I w-- I
hope I would think to. It's kind of like--
sometimes I say to my students--
11:35:23;13 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
FEMALE VOICE:
11:35:25;00 Sometimes I say to my students-- (VOICE
TAPE #W5
Pg. 88
BREAKING), "You know, put yourself in the
position of the person. You know, would you-
- if somebody knocked on your door, would you
hide them if-- it meant your risking your own
student's li-- your own-- your own family's
lives?"
11:35:37;19 And-- you know, I tell them, "It's not an
easy question to answer." Hopefully you'll
have-- strong people, and you will be a
strong person, to be willing to do those
kinds of things. And listening to somebody
like Clara, and Jack, and the others, you get
the idea that there is strength, there is a
way to survive, and there is a way to really
make a difference in the world. And I think
that's what they've done for us.
11:35:59;05 (OFF-MIKE CONVERSATION)
***END OF TRANSCRIPT***
