Coaching and the Freedom to Learn: A Conversation with

Tim Gallwey and John Whitmore

Interview Conducted by David B. Drake

This article first appeared in the International Journal of Coaching in Organizations, 2009 7(1), 38-53. It can only be reprinted and distributed with prior written permission from Professional Coaching

Publications, Inc. (PCPI). Email John Lazar at john@ijco.info for such permission.

ISSN 1553-3735

2009

© Copyright 2009 PCPI. All rights reserved worldwide.

Journal information:

www.ijco.info

Purchases:www.pcpionline.com

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coaching and the Freedom to learn: a conversation with tim Gallwey and John WhitmoreINTERVIEWBYDAVIDB.DRAKE

David: As I was getting ready for this conversation, I realizedthatyourbeginningsincoaching,yourroots,werealmost40yearsagonow.Theybeganataveryuniquetimeandplaceinhistoryintermsof theimpetusfromEsaleninthelate‘60sandearly‘70sintheU.S.Whatareyourthoughtsasyoureflectbacktothattimeandhowithasshapedyourthinkingandcoachingmorebroadly?

Tim:I’llbegladtostart.The‘60sandearly‘70swasatimeinwhich,inaverybroadsense,peoplewerestrugglingwiththetop-downhierarchicalparadigminmanyformsof culture.Myareawaseducation.I’dobviouslybeeninschoolalotandI’dbeenatrainingofficerinthenavyandacollegeeducator.Theparadigmwasthepersonwhoknowstellsthepersonwhodoesn’t,andthefocuswason content,noton theperson’s learning the content.Therewasverylittleaboutlearning.MybreakthroughcameonatenniscourtduringasabbaticalwhenapersonstartedlearningbeforeIbeganteachingthem.This,inmymind,wasahorriblething.First,Ishouldteach;thenyouwouldlearn.Thenyouthankme and pay me. Noticing this — that I was more committedto teaching thanIwas to learning—reallymadea shift inmydirectionand startedmeonaquest tofigureouthowapersoncouldfacilitatethelearningof anotherperson.

John: It’sreally interestinghowwecometosimilarconclusionsfromdifferentdirections,inaway.MyownbackgroundwasthatI’dbeensuccessfulinsportandbusinessandIfelttheremustbemoretolifethanthesortof traditionalmaterialsuccess.Thiswasinabout1969andIheardtherewereinterestingthingsgoingoninCalifornia,bothintermsof thepoliticalthingof theanti-VietnamWarprotests andall that and thebirthof thehumanpotentialmovement.Inparticular,IreadsomethingaboutEsalenInstitute.

Iunderstoodverylittleaboutit,exceptthatIfelttherewereprobablynewideastherethatwouldhelpmetolookinwardsratherthanoutwards.Iknewthesolutionwasn’tinmorepossessions,soIknewIhadtolookinside.Itseemedthatthat’swhattheyweredoingatEsalenandsoIwentthere.CarlRogersandotherpeoplelikehimwerethereanditwasallnewstufftome.Butitreallywokemeup©

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toanothersideof myself,particularlytheemotionalside,whichasanEnglishman—atleastinthosedays—wedon’thaveemotions,wehavestiffupperlipsinstead.IgotveryinvolvedinEsalenandIreallyfeltthatIexpandedalotthroughtheexplorationof thewholeof myself —mind,bodyandemotions.In1971ImetBobKriegelwhosubsequentlywrote the Inner SkiingbookwithTim.BobandIhadalotof conversationsbecausehisbackgroundwasinsportandminehadbeeninsport.Wewerelookingverymuchatwhatawarenesscontributestosport.WespenttimetogetheratauniversitytrackinSantaBarbarabecauseitwaswherealotof theAmericanathletesdid their trainingall theyear round.Wewentjoggingandhadalotof conversationswithmanyof them.It really turned me on to the idea that there was something inthis formof humanisticpsychology that reallyapplied to sport.BobandItalkedaboutitalot,butwedidn’tdoalotaboutit.Itwasn’tuntilTim’sInner Game of Tennisbookappearedin1972thatsuddenlyIgotit,“OK,thisisit;thisishowitworks.”Itwastheepiphanyformeatthattime.

David:I’mgoingtopickuponthatword,‘epiphany’,John,becauseweknowthatlearningandtransformationarenotjustaboutonemoment in time, but everything we were doing, consciously orunconsciously, thatmadethemomentpossible.Foryou,Tim, it’stheepiphanyonthetenniscourtwhereallof asuddenyourealizesomeoneislearningwithoutyouteachingher.John,IhaveheardthatforyouitcamefromreadinganarticleinTimethattalkedaboutEsalen.Whatwasitaboutthisarticlethatcompelledyoutoflyhalf wayacrosstheworldtoaplaceyoudidnotknowtodosomethingthatwassodifferentfromyourBritishheritage?

John:Therewerea coupleof otherpieces to it. I’d seenafilmcalled,Bob and Carol, Ted and AliceanditwasaboutwhatwasgoingonatEsalen.Ireallywasmovedbythefilm;itstruckmebecausethesepeoplewere free toexpress theiremotions. Itwasnot longafterthatIsawthisdouble-pagespreadinTime Magazinewhich,bytheway,wasverycautiousaboutEsalen.Of course,thisonlyfedmyalreadyestablishedinterest—havingseenthemovie—buttherewasalsoclearlyapoliticalelementaboutit.Themagazinedidn’tsayso,butwasthisacommunistplot?Immediately,Iwasattractedto it because I could see this was definitely an alternative to thetraditionalwayof thinking.Ireallydidn’tknowanymorethanthat.AfterIreadthearticleIgotabrochureforEsalen; ithadlotsof wordsintherelike‘consciousness,’butIdidn’tevenknowwhattheymeant.Ithoughttheonlywaytofindoutwastogothere.

Iwenttherenotknowingwhattoexpectatall.Iactuallyimagineditwouldbeasortof intellectualthinktank.ButwhenIgotthere,Ifoundthegamewastoleaveyourbrainsatthedoorandbringinyouremotions.ThatwasareallydifferentapproachtoanythingIwasusedtodoing.IspenttwoweeksatEsalenanddidavarietyof differentactivities.Itreallywasamind-blowingexperiencefor

My breakthrough came on a tennis court when a person started learning before I began teaching them. This, in my mind, was a horrible thing. I was more committed to teaching than I was to learning . [This]really made a shift in my direction and started me on a quest to figure out how a person could facilitate the learning of another person.

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mebecause I think itwas thefirst time I regardedemotionsasvaluableandusefulinsteadof somethingyoujustsuppress.Itwasthekeymomentforme.

David:Howaboutforyou,Tim?Whatdoyouthinkwasgoingonforyouthathelpedyoutoseizethatmomentwhereyouhadtheepiphanyaboutthedifferencebetweenteachingandlearning?Whatwasthatlikeforyouasyourememberit?

Tim:ItwasamazinglylikeJohn’sexperience,althoughIwasn’tatEsalenmuch.IhadhelpedfoundaliberalartscollegeinNorthernMichigan,whichwasanattempttodosomethingnewineducation.After thecollegecollapsedeconomically,Iwent toCaliforniatostudywithCarlRogersinaplacecalledtheCenterfortheStudyof thePerson.Itwasbasicallythreeweeksof encountergroups,wheretheyhadexactlythesameprinciple[asJohnmentioned].We’renot interestedinwhatyouthink;we’re interestedinwhatyou’re feeling in the moment and in your ability to express it.I think that’s where I understood the power of nonjudgmentalawareness, inanenvironmentwhere itwassafe tobebored,bescared,beangry,orbe in lovewith thepersonacross the roomfromyou.Anythingwentintermsof whatyouwerefeeling.Soitopenedupasideof methatIhadn’tknownbefore.Ithinktheshiftwastobegintotrustthatthebasisof ahumanbeingwasgoodandthattherewasalotmoretherethanIhadgivenaccountfor.

John: Iagreewithyou,Tim.I felt the samething. Iwasreallymovedintheencountergroupsatthegoodnessthatemergedfromdeep within people in these processes. I saw that when peopleexpressed their emotions, even very negative emotions such asangerorsadnesssometimes—veryoftendirectedattheirparents,whomayhavebeendeadforyears—therewasalwaysthisgreatgenerosityandaffectionandotherthingslurkingunderneaththisstuffthathadtobeshedofffirst.

Tim: I think the other thing that must have struck us both intheseexperienceswashowlittleteachingtherewas.Forthefirsttwohours inmyfirstencountergroup, Ididn’tevenknowwhothefacilitatorswere.Thelearninghappenedfromtheinteractionamongst the people. The facilitators said their role was to be aparticipantandatthesametimewatchwhatwasgoingonwiththegroup.Theywerejustanothersetof eyesfocusedinadifferentway,butthelearninghappenedfrompeople’sexperiencenotfrombeingtaught.

John:Absolutely.Ihadaveryspecificexperienceof thatwhichI’veneverforgotten.WhenIwasatschoolIwasneverparticularlygoodatwriting.Creativewritingwasjustnotforme.Ijustusedvery simple, possibly grammatically correct, English. I alwaysmarveledatpeoplewhocouldwritepoetically.

It really woke me up to another side of myself, particularly the emotional side, which as an Englishman — at least in those days — we don’t have emotions, we have stiff upper lips instead.

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I’dreadThe Greening of AmericaandFuture Shockwhichhadimpressedme,but IcouldnotwritewhenIwent toEsalen. Ididn’twriteanythingwhileIwasthere.OntheairplaneonthewaybacktoEngland,Iwrote toa friendof mine.Itwasextraordinary; thisletterwaspoetic and I realizedas a result thatwhenyoudon’tincludeyouremotionsintheprocessyoucan’twrite.Ilearnedthatitwasallwithinme.Nobodyhadtoteachmeaboutwriting;Ijusthadtoliberatethepartof methathadbeensuppressedandthenIcouldwrite.SomepeoplethinkI’mquiteagoodwriternow.It’sreallystrange.

David:Itisstrange,isn’tit?Iwanttopickuponthistheme.Alotof coachesand,Isuppose,clientsfeelthatpartof whatinstinctivelydraws them to coaching is a desire for liberation at some level—thatthere’smoretomylifethanthisandIhavemoretoofferthanthis.Itisadrivetowardself-actualization,toborrowanoldterm.Butinorderforthemtosurviveandprosperandadvance,theyalsofeeltheneedtofigureouthowtoaccommodatemoreeffectivelytotheorganizationalandculturalsystemsinwhichtheywork.Whatiscoaching’sroleinmanagingthesetensions?

Tim:IthinkthatfromthestoriesthatJohnandIhavealreadytold,youcanseethatthisdrivetoself-actualization,discoveringwhatisinthehumanbeing,isaverynaturalprocess.Ithappensinpracticalwayswhenyoufindyourself beingabletodothingsthatyoucouldn’tdobeforeandbe things thatyouweren’tabletobebefore.Itcanhappenonatenniscourt;itcanhappeninabusinessenvironment.

I’mnotforteachingself-actualizationinthebusinesscontext,butteaching or coaching on learning so the coach is there to helpwhenthepersonwhoisreadyforapersonalstepinlearning.Inthebusinessenvironment,youshouldn’tforgetthebusinessobjectivesof the individual and the corporation — or else coaching willbecome something it really wasn’t designed to be and will loseface.That’sapersonalbias.

I’ll just sayonemore thing.Whereasmyhighest value, youcouldsay, is self-actualization,meaning self-knowledge, I’mprotectiveof theenvironmentinwhichthatoccurs.Freedomof choiceandlackof pressureof anykind iscritical to learning in the realmof self-knowledgeandcannotbeasub-goaltobusiness.Itjustwon’tworkthatway.Ilearnedtoappreciateself-knowledgeinsuchanenvironmentandamcarefulnottomixapplesandorangesinthisregard.

John: That’s really interesting. I guess we all develop our ownstoryabouthowlifeandtheworldworksandthatsortof thing,and thenwe livebyour storyandwerefineour storyaswegoalong.Noneof ushaveaccesstothetruth,sowealllivebyastorythatworksforus.Inasense,thestorythatIendedupwithbythistime—andI’mnotsureitwasverydevelopedintheearlystages

This drive to self-actualization, discovering what is in the human being, is a very natural process. It happens in practical ways when you find yourself being able to do things that you couldn’t do before and be things that you weren’t able to be before. It can happen on a tennis court; it can happen in a business environment.

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then,although itmaybehappeningsubconsciously—was thatworkplaceactivitieshadnorealsignificanceinthemselves.Theywerevehiclesthroughwhichpeoplecouldexperienceandenrichtheirownlives.

Sobyexperiencingthechallengesof theworkplaceorthesportfield,peoplewouldgrowanddevelop.I feltat thetimethattheactual contribution to the business was important in so far aspeoplehad to earna livingandcooperatewith the system,butitwasactuallysecondarytopeople’spersonalgrowth.Lateron,Ihadamorespiritualawakening.Ibegantoseethatthiskindof workhadaspiritualpurpose,butIdon’tthinkIrealizeditwasatthattime.

ThedifficultyIhavewiththerelationshipbetweentheworkplaceandindividualdevelopment is theextenttowhichthevaluesof businessveryoftenruncountertothevaluesof theindividual.Ibelieveprofoundlythatatdeeperlevelseveryonehasgood,positivevalues.Weboth sortof see it thatway. I think there is a lotof difficultywhenthere’saconflictbetweenanexecutive’spersonalvalues,whichareoftencompassionate,contributoryones,andalotof thebusinessvaluesthattendtobeselfish,acquisitiveand,whatIwouldcall,counter-evolutionary.Thisdoesposeaproblemforcoaching.Imanagetoworkwithit,butIcannotpretendthatthiscontradictiondoesnotexist.

David:Thereareotherprofessions,e.g.,therapyandeconomics,whichaddresssomeof thesesameissues.Forbothof you,then,what is theuniquecontributionthatcoachingcanmaketohelpindividualsandgroupswiththesedilemmas?

John:Ithinkwhatwe’redoingincoachingishelpingpeopleoratleastcreatingtheenvironmentinwhichpeoplecanlookatthesethingsclearlyandmaketheirowndecisions.Iwouldn’tbegintosaythat,becauseyouhavethesevaluesandyourcorporationhasthesevalues,thisiswhatyoushoulddo.Itrustabsolutelythateachof usisthebestpersontoanswerthatquestionforourselves.Whatweprovideistheenvironmentand,insomecasesthechallengingquestions, which make them think it through and get a clearerpicture—bothintellectuallyandemotionally—sotheycanmaketheirdecisionsfromamoreinformedplace.

Tim:JohnandIagreeonthatforsure.It’snotonlyinbusinessthatthere’sconflictbetweenbasichumanvaluesandwhat’sgoingon in the culture. So the key role of the coach is to help eachpersontothinkandfeelforthemselvesandtobeanindependentindividual. I say independent,meaning they can standon theirowntwofeetandworktogetherwithothersinacooperativeway.Sothebusinessenvironmentisasgoodasanyenvironmentintheculturetoworkoutthatdilemmabetweenindividualandculture.Idon’tseeitasanobstacle,butasnecessarylearningtoevenwin

I believe profoundly that at deeper levels everyone has good, positive values. I think there is a lot of difficulty when there’s a conflict between an executive’s personal values, which are often compassionate, contributory ones, and a lot of the business values that tend to be selfish, acquisitive and, what I would call, counter-evolutionary.

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your stripesasan individual.Youhave to recognize theculturethatyou’reinandthecultureyou’vebeentaught,andthenmakeveryfundamentalchoicesaboutwhereyoustand.

John:CanI just illustrate thatwithavery simplemodel that Ithink helps to illustrate it? The model starts with dependence,wherewearedependentonourparents,thenourteachers,andthentherulesof thegame.Sotospeak,wedowhatwearetold.Thenwego into this stageof independencewherewebecomeself-determining.Ultimately,whatseemstoemergeisathirdstage,interdependence,becauseatacertainpointinourdevelopmentaljourney or evolutionary journey, the desire to collaborate withotherpeopleforthegoodof thewholeseemstoariseautomaticallyattherighttime.You don’thavetoforcethatorteachit.Itjustemergesonce somebodyhashad theopportunity toexperienceandthriveinthatliberatedspaceof beingindependent.

Tim: I would agree with that model and the belief that howinterdependentonewantstobeisone’sindividualchoice,andit’sclearlywhat’sgoingtomaketheworldwork.It’sgoingtobewhatmakesgovernmentswork,whatmakeseducationandhealthcarework.Itisbasedinarealinterdependencewherepeoplecanspeakstraighttoeachotherandmovetowardsacommongoodbecausethey are confident enough in their individuality that they don’talwayshavetowineveryargumentorlookthesmartest.

John: The difficulty is that our social structure, our economicsystem,issortof tribalandcompetitiveinnatureandencouragesus to be competitive between one another, as people and asorganizations. I thinkwe’ve reacheda stage in theworld todaywherethecompetitivenessisgettingmoreandmoreinappropriateandwe’vegottotakebettercareof thehumanfamily.

David:Oneof thequestionsthatcomestomindformeinresponseto these challenges is to get your take on and your hope for thecurrent interest inmindfulness.Whatare the implicationsof thebreakthroughsfromresearchonthebrainandthegrowinginterestinBuddhismandmindfulnessasanessentialqualityforcoachesandcoachees?Tim,Icanimagineitwouldresonatequitewellwithyougivenyourlong-standinginterestinobservationandnonjudgmentalapproachestolearning.Andforyouaswell,John.

Tim: Just so that it doesn’t becomea cliché.Paying attention iscriticaltolearningandwhatyoupayattentiontoiscriticalforwhatyoulearn—andthat’salldrivenbybasicfeltdesires.If thosedesiresaren’treallyyourdesiresbutaretheculture’sdesires,you’regoingtobepayingattentiontothingsthatmakeyouintosomethingotherthanwhatyoureallyare.Sotheartistoreallyknowwhoyouareand fromthatwhereyouwant to focusyourattention.Thatwilldetermineyourprioritiesandwhatyoulearn.

It is based in a real interdependence where people can speak straight to each other and move towards a common good because they are confident enough in their individuality that they don’t always have to win every argument or look the smartest.

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Inmydiscoveryon the sportsfield, theamazing thingwas thatasyoupayattention,thingsimprove,andthatdoesn’tmeanI’mtryingtoimprovethem.If youpayattentiontowheretheballhitsontheracket,itbeginstoclustertowardsthecenterof theracket—andthatblewmymind.Ididn’tseewhythatwouldhappen,butitfeltbetteranditworkedbetter.SoIbeganfeelingthattherealteacher,if therehastobealearnerandateacher,isone’sownexperience.Coachessimplyhelpclientspayattentiontotheirownexperienceinwaysthatfostertheirgrowthanddevelopmentandmovementtowardstheirowngoals.

John:Iwoulduseanothermodeltodescribeexactlywhatyou’resaying, Tim. I use the term ‘awareness’ to mean the same aspayingattention.If wepaidattentionorwewerehighlyawareatallmomentsinourlives,wewouldbeoverwhelmedbyallof theinputandwewouldn’tbeable tocope. I suggest, then, thatwehaveanautomaticsystemthatclosesdownourawarenesstothelevelweneed[atthetime]inordertodowhateverwe’redoing.

For example, if you’re just walking down the street, you don’tpay much attention to your body as it’s walking. You may bewatching where other people are so that you don’t bump intothem,butyourawarenessisprettylow.Thethingthatenhanceslearning is increasingyourawareness. It’sa littlebit likehavingamagnifyingglass,whichincreasesthequalityandthequantityof theinformationyoureceiveortheinput.Asyougetthatextrainput,inevitably,itwillcreatetheimprovement.If youseeexactlywheretheballisgoing,asTimsays,bodywillautomaticallybegintoself-correct.

Themagicof thismindfulness,thisawareness,thisqualityof inputisthatitis,initself,curative.Youdon’thavetofixit.Theproblemwith“teaching’isthatittriestofixsomethingand,asaresult,veryoftenactuallydisruptsthelearningprocess.Ithinkyou’llfindthatwhatisshowingupnowintheneurosciencesisthattheareaof yourmindthatdealswiththeexperienceandreceptionof highqualityinputisdifferentfromtheareaof yourmindwhichtakesinstructionsortheinformationgivenfromoutside.Whatwewanttodoismakesurethatweactivatetherightpartof ourselves,butteachingactuallyrunscountertothataim.

Tim:Weseeitprettymuchthesame.Iseeawarenesslikealightthatenablesustoknow.Thetensionisthefocusingof thelight;itenablesyoutolearnmoreinaspecificdirectionanditkeepsyoufromhavingtopayattentiontoeverythingatthesametime.

David:Therehavebeenseveralgenerationsof coaching;manyof theearlyfoundersandcontributorstocoachinglikeyourselvesarenowintheir60sand70s.There’samiddlewaveof peoplelikemyself inour40sand50swhoarecarryingforwardsomeof thesetraditionsaswellasbringingforwardnewdisciplineslikepositive

I see awareness like a light that enables us to know. The tension is the focusing of the light; it enables you to learn more in a specific direction and it keeps you from having to pay attention to everything at the same time.

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andnarrativepsychologies.Ascoachingmovesgloballyandacrossdifferentagegroups,whatdoyouthinkwillhappenwithcoachingandwhatsortof excitingpossibilitiesdoyouseeonthehorizon?Whatdoyouthinkisstillmissingfromcoachingandwhereshouldwebepayingmoreattention?

Tim:Thedirectionof myinterest—andIthinkwherethereistheneed—isinthecoachingof teamstoworktogetherandtoovercome the self-interferences such as self-doubt and fear thatprevent aperson fromaccessinghis orherpotential.Coachingis always about overcoming the self-limitations that we imposeonourselvesthatkeepusfromgoingwherewewanttogo.Theamountof interference thathappenswhenpeopleare trying toworktogetherisextremelyhigh,asisthepotentialthatpeoplealsohavewhentheyworktogether.Itislikehavingonebigbrainmadeupof allthelifeexperiencesof thepeopleonyourteam,whetherit’sateamof sevenorateamof 7,000or7,000,000.Whenthey’removingtowardsacommongoal,theycanovercometheindividualmindsetthatwassoimportanttothemintheirdevelopment,toaccomplish something more. Before becoming an independentindividualapersontendstorelyonthegrouptoforapprovalandself-esteem.Onlywhenconfidentinoneself canapersonbefreetoworkeffectively inateamwithoutputting individualgoals infrontof teamgoals.When truly freepeoplework togetherasateamyoucangetsomethingdonethatbeginstobringhopetothefuturebeyondsimpleindividualgrowth.

I’d also like to put a voice out there for really understandingwhypeoplehaveahardtimelisteningtoeachotherandahardtimeputtingasidetheirownmindsettoevenbeinterestedinthemindsetof another.Intheend,whydotheyhavedifficultyworkingtogetherforcommonends?If wedon’tsolvethatone,theworlditself willbeinaverysadcondition.Ithinktogetthejobdonewehavetoworktogethertomakehealthworkandeducationworkandtomakepeaceintheworldtowork.So,Iwouldenvisionthatcoachingmovesinthatdirectionastheneeddoes.

John:Ireallyagreewiththat.Whenwefirsttalkaboutcoaching,certainly as applied to the workplace and pretty often in sport—certainlywitha sport like tennisor skiing— it is aone-on-one process. I don’t want to deny that there have always beenteamsinsport,butwhencoachingcameintotheworkplace—orwithlifecoaching—itwasverymuchaone-to-oneprocess.Astimehasgoneon,wehavefocusedverymuchintheBritishandEuropeancoaching sceneonplayingdown theword ‘coaching’and focusing more on the attitudes and behaviors that peopleneededtodevelop.Iwillsimplifythatbysayingweneededpeopletobemoreawareandmoreresponsible.Sowhatwehavespentalotof ourtimedoinginEurope—itmaybealittledifferentintheStates—isworkingtohavetheprinciplesof coachingadoptedbyorganizationssothattheirmanagersandleaderswerebehavingin

What I’m seeing is that we’re moving from working with individuals into working more with groups through coaching teams and working more with whole organizations in becoming coaching cultures. But what I’ve noticed in the last four or five years, more than anything else, is whole institutions changing.

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amannerthatrepresentedtheprinciplesof coaching.Wewouldn’tcallthemcoaches,butweenabledthemtolearnhowtomanagedifferentlyand,asaresult,createmoreof whatwemightdescribeasacoachingcultureinorganizations.

What I’m seeing is that we’re moving from working withindividuals into working more with groups through coachingteamsandworkingmorewithwholeorganizations inbecomingcoaching cultures. But what I’ve noticed in the last four or fiveyears,morethananythingelse,iswholeinstitutionschanging.Theinstitutionof educationiswantingtomoveinthisdirection.Theinstitutionof healthcare...andI’mworkingwiththeEuropeanCommissiononamassivetasktomovethewholeof Europefrominstruction to coaching indriver education.Sowhat I’m seeingis larger and larger organizations that go beyond the corporateboundariesintoawholeinstitutionalwayof being,wholeculturesadoptingthisway;andI’mveryencouragedbythatbecause,asTimhasexpressed,thisiswhatwehavetoadoptrightacrossoursocietyif we’regoingtoaddresstheseproblems.Thisisnotgoingtobefixedbyasmallorganizationorafewindividuals.We’vegottostartworkingtogetherforthegoodof thewhole,andI’mveryencouragedbytheshiftsIseeoccurring.

Tim:OnehopeIhaveforthefutureof coachingisthatitdoesn’tlose its foundation in learning. Whether coaching is facilitatingthe learning in an individual or a high performance team,understanding the learning process and what gets in its way, isfundamental to its success.Andtheonlywayyoucanhavethatunderstandingisbycontinuingtobealearneryourself.

John:Yeah,absolutely.

Tim:Wecanstartthinkingof coachingasavalueitself,soIwouldliketoseelearningculturesandinstitutionsthatarelearningjustlike individuals learn.Theyevolve—andthat’swhatcorporateleadersfeelresponsiblefor—anditevencanworkinacompetitivemodel.Thosecompaniesthatlearnhowtolearn,they’regoingtosurvive and thrive — whether they’re bigger or smaller, they’regoingtothrive.Thatiskindof thelawof evolution.Thosethatthink they’regetting the jobdone,period—andgetting totallystressedoutontheway—they’regoingtofail.It’scomingtoapointinorganizationswheretheycanseethat,andIthinkthat’swhythey’llbeopenmoreandmoretoembracingtheprincipleof learningintheirorganizations.

John:Youusedtheterm‘evolution’againthere.Idoseecoachingasawayof facilitatingorfosteringpsychosocialorpsychospiritualor psycho-socio-spiritual, if you like, evolution. It is a way of facilitatingthatprocess,anditisalearningprocess.Iseethatasgoingon.

The word [coaching] will get redefined as coaching continues. It’s a borrowed word, it is getting redefined, and the future depends on how we define it and use it. It has a very short history so far.

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It does raise the other issue that Tim and I have talked aboutbefore,whichiswheredoesspiritualityfitintothismodel?Oneof thethingsthatcomesupalotforme…IworkquitealotinAsiaand,of course, inAsia there’s lessof adivision in thepersonaldevelopmentjourneybetweenthepsychologicalandthespiritual;it’sjustacontinuousprocessinwhichpeoplemovegraduallyfromwhat we in the West would say was the psychological into thespiritual as theydomoreworkon themselves.We tend tohaveadivisionbetweenpsychologyandspirituality,andI see thatasvery foreign tomostof Asian thinking. Ifindthat they love thecoachingprinciplesandtheyuseitandareinterestedinitfortheirfurtherdevelopmentinthatarea.

David:Soitbegsthequestion,then,of justwhatis‘coaching?’John,Ireadsomewherethatyouhavemusedwhether,inhindsight,itwouldhavebeenbettertoinventawholenewwordinsteadof bringing forward ‘coaching’ from the sports world. I wonder if coachingwasanecessaryword tobeable toexpress somethingthatwasfamiliartopeople,butif nowthere’sperhapsanopennesstothinkbeyond‘coaching’insearchof anewwordforwhatwearedoing.

John:Thewordwasconfusingbecausethetraditionalcoachinginsportwasreallybasedonbehavioralpsychology,whichisverymuch about just getting the behavior right not about payingattentiontotheinternalobstaclesandthingsthatTimwastalkingabout.Itwasjustgettingbehaviorright.Holdtheracketlikethis,notlikethat.Thatwasallbehavioral,butthencoachingasweknowitcamealongwithafundamentallydifferentwayof learning,sotospeak.Yetwestillusethesameterm‘coaching.’Ithinkthathascausedconfusion forpeople thathadhadcoaching insportbutwere now getting something more psychologically advanced. Itwasaverydifferentapproachandthewordisconfusingbecauseit’susedforbothof them.

Tim:Thewordwill get redefinedascoachingcontinues. It’saborrowedword,itisgettingredefined,andthefuturedependsonhowwedefineitanduseit.Ithasaveryshorthistorysofar.John:Iabsolutelyagree,yeah.

David: Inmyclientprojects Ipointout thatmost leadersandmanagers will spend only 5% of their time during the weekformallycoaching.Thebulkof whatthey’retryingtoaccomplishin their organizations needs to happen as a result of the other95% of their time. I talk about coaching as a lens or windowthroughwhichtheycanlookattheirdailypracticessoitbecomesthewaythateveryaspectof theirbusinessgetsdone.Inanygivenmoment,whatisthehighestthingIcanoffertothisconversationortothisperson?What isbeingaskedof merightnow?Thesetypesof questionstranscendwhatwewouldtraditionallythinkof

Coaching doesn’t keep me so vibrantly alive as learning does. I’m happy being on either side of the coaching fence. I love coaching and I love being coached, and I love learning when it’s just from my daily life. Learning is a word that I don’t think will quickly go away.

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ascoaching,butif coachingtrulyembracedthespiritualelementyou’vementioneditwouldbecomemoretransparentandbeabletofocusmoreonwhatitistryingtoaccomplish.

Tim:Iwouldagree.Youhavetolooktobeacleanmirrorandnottoputyourownbiasaheadof theevolutionaryinstinctof thepersonbeingcoached.

John:Isometimessaythattheultimatequestion—andthere’sonlyonequestion in coachingultimately— is, “whoare you?”I think that iswhatweare trying tohelppeople todo.There’slots of different ways you can define coaching, but you couldsaythatitishelpingthepersontofindwhotheyareunderneaththe conditioning, the social obligations, the imposed religiousimperatives, and their own anxieties and defense mechanisms—tomovebeyondthatstufftofindoutwhoyoureallyare.Tome,onecoulddescribethatasaspiritualquestorasapersonaldevelopmentquest.Ithinktheprocess isthesamewhateverthewordweputonit,inaway.

David: One of the things I admire about both of you is thatneither of you have rested on your considerable laurels; youremainengagedinlearningandincontributingtotheprofession.Iknow,Tim,you’vegotanewbookintheworks.Whatotherkindsof thingsinterestthetwoof yourightnowthatkeepyoualiveandvibrantinyourengagementwiththisquestcalled‘coaching’?

Tim: I’m going to repeat that coaching doesn’t keep me sovibrantlyaliveas learningdoes. I’mhappybeingoneither sideof thecoachingfence.IlovecoachingandIlovebeingcoached,andIlovelearningwhenit’s justfrommydailylife.LearningisawordthatIdon’tthinkwillquicklygoaway.Self-developmentisevenabetterword.Knowingyourself isevenahigherquest.Idon’tbelievethosehavetobeinorder.You canlearntoknowyourself atapointwhereyou’restillnotthatpsychologicallyandemotionallydeveloped.Self-knowledgeisanever-endingquestforme. I’vealready learned that itdoesn’thavea limit, so I’mnotlookingforsomethingelsetointerestme.

John:IguessformeitisthingswhichIreallydidn’tintend...thatmybook,Coaching for Performance,becameratherwidespreadand translated into many different languages, mostly Europeanlanguages,andthenit’sinJapanese,Chinese,Korean,Malaysianandsoon.Inmanyof thesecountriesitwascertainlythefirst,if nottheonly,textbookthattheyhadwhencoachingbeganbecauseitwastheonlyoneintheirlanguage.Theresultof thatisthatIhavesomehowendedupwithfeelingthatIhavearesponsibilitytohelpfosterthecoachingprofession.Igetaskedalottoallthesedifferentcountriesbecausethey’reusingmybookasoneof theirprincipaltextbooks.

I feel that I’ve had a great life. I’ve had enormous personal fulfillment from the journey that I have been on. I feel a responsibility and a duty that I welcome, actually, to serve the profession that has made such a difference in my own life.

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IfeelthatI’vehadagreatlife.I’vehadenormouspersonalfulfillmentfromthejourneythatIhavebeenon.IfeelaresponsibilityandadutythatIwelcome,actually,toservetheprofessionthathasmadesuchadifferenceinmyownlife.WhileIdohavethereputation,Ifeelit’smydutytousethat—sothat’sreallywhatI’mdoingaboutcoachingassuch,asaprofession.ButI’mreallywithTiminthatit’saboutlearningandIfeelthatI’mcontinuouslylearninginmyoldagenow.

The other thing I’m so concerned about in the world today iswiththeeconomicdeclineandallthat.I'mhorrifiedatthelevelof consciousness, for lack of any better expression, or the levelof evolutionthatsomeof theleadersintheworldhavereachedandtheamountof harmthey’redoingbecausethey’renotmoremature or more evolved. So I have been quite involved in anumberof globalissuesformanyyearsandIloveit.EverydayIlearnmoreandlearnmore.Ican’tstopthatif Iwantedto.It’sagreatlife.

David:Itisagreatlife...

Tim:Overhere inAmericawehavea littlebit of freshair inleadership.Wedon’tknowhowit’sgoingtoworkout,butthere’ssomebody that’sprettyawareandyou feel isahumanbeingatleast.He’sgotreallyhugeproblems,buthe’sreallycallingforalotof peoplenowtogetinvolved,notonlyinrebuildingthecountrybutinthinkingglobally.Idon’tthinkitwillhurtif he’sallowedtobearoundforawhile.

John:Ithinkwe’relivinginveryexcitingtimes.There’ssomuchchangegoingonthatissuchneededchange.Therewereperiods inhistory thatwe’vedescribed in certainways, like theReformation or the Renaissance. I think we are going throughoneof thosefascinatingperiods inhumanhistorynowandit isverymuchawakingupof thecollectivebecausewehaveto.Wecannot continuewith thegreaterandgreaterdisparitybetweentherichandthepoor intheworld,withonethirdof theworldreallysufferingandothersatthetopwhodon’tknowwhattodowiththeirmillions.Sothere’sthatsocial injusticeareaandthenthere’stheseriousenvironmentalproblemsthat,within20or30years,if wehaven’tdonesomethingenormousaboutthemwewillbeintremendoustrouble.

Ithinkthatthefunctionof coachingandpeopleawakeningandbecoming more aware and more responsible — whatever theactivitytheyarein—isjustpartof thatchange.Itisalmostasif coachingisaprofessionthat’sgrownuptomeettheneedinthisparticularperiod,andthatoneof theproductsof coachingcouldbe described as awakening people’s self-responsibility. We can’tjustkeeplookingoverourshoulderandsaying,“Whoisgoingtodoitforme?”Averyimportantpartof personaldevelopmentis

I think we’re living in very exciting times. There were periods in history that we’ve described in certain ways, like the Reformation or the Renaissance. I think we are going through one of those fascinating periods in human history now and it is very much a waking up of the collective because we have to.

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thepointatwhichyoubegintotakemoreresponsibilityforyourownlife.Whatatimetobealive!

David: In looking at the notes I made in preparing for thisconversationI’mstruckbythetrajectoriesof yourlives—startingwithracecarsandtenniscourtsthroughtospiritualpaths,successasawriterandteacher,andnowonto,perhaps,awisdomkeeperkindof role.Asyou lookback—evenas farasyour familyof originandwhat inspiredyourfirst loves—what standsout foryou,whatarethethreadsthatrunthroughitall?

Tim:I’llstartwithacouple.Oneisthatthere’smuchmoretoahumanbeingthanwerealize.Thatgoesforeveryhumanbeing.Thequestisnotalimitedquest.That’snotonlyasanindividual,butasasocialhumanbeing.Secondly,wegetinthewayof ourownselvesalotmorethanwe’dliketoadmit.You putthosetwothingstogetherandyouhavethedramaof livinglifetoday—thatwe’vegotatremendous,incredibleopportunityforawhiletobeahumanbeing.Inmyunderstandingthere’snothinglikeit,andyetwe’refacedwithalotof interferencethatgetsbornoutsideof usandsomefrominsideof us thatkeepsus fromevenwantingto know. We think we already do know and that thinking thatwealreadyknowshutsdownthe learningprocess.That trust inwhatahumanbeingreallyisandcanbeisafundamentalthemeserved by the commitment, the choice or, in John’s term, theresponsibility,tofindoutamidyourothersocialresponsibilitiesisacurrentthemeforme.

John:It’sfunnybecausewhenIlookback,IgrewupduringWorldWarIIandwewereinanareathatwasveryheavilybombedinthe war. Both my parents were very involved in the war effort.Mymotherwasheadof theRedCrossinthearea,andmyfatherwasheadof thehomedefenseonguard.Theirlifewasabsolutelyaboutservice.Moneywasnottheissue.Theissueherewas,“howcanIcontributetosociety?”andIthoughtthatwasthepurposeof lifewhenIwasyoung.Earningalivingormakingmoneydidnotgetdiscussedatall.

Tim:Ihadasimilarbackground.

John:Somehow,Ithinkthat’soneof thosebitsof conditioningthatInevershedandIdon’twanttoshed.Alotof otherconditioning,I think, stopspeoplebeingwho theyare,but Ido feel that thatis a fundamental part of human being that I’ve been fortunateenoughtocarry.That’sbeenadrivingforceand,tosomeextent,mydesiretosucceedinsportintheearlydaysandachievingthingssincethen,comesfromadeepdownrelationshipwithparentswhoservedhumanity.Iwantedtodothesameandperhapsliveuptotheirexpectationsalthough theyare longgone. I remembermyparentswithenormousaffectionandIvaluewhatIgotfromthem,which was about service to humanity. Some people say service

I just want to mention a special kind of learning called ‘unlearning’ and it may be as important as learning. Learning new things may be only half the job, if that, as unlearning the old things we’ve taken in unconsciously — or sometimes even consciously but realize they’re not really our own — is perhaps even more important.

IJCO Issue 1 2009 | �1

sinceyou’redoingitforotherpeople,buttomeit’ssuchajoytobedoingthat.It’salmostlikeaselfishactivity.

Tim:Weagree.

John:JusttheotherthingsIremember...therearecertainkeypointswhenyoucouldhave taken thewrongdirection. I couldhave taken the wrong direction if I had decided that more bigcarsorbigboatsorhousesintheCaribbeanoranotherairplanewouldhavegivenmesatisfaction.Ithinkthereareatremendousnumberof verywealthypeopletodaywhohaveaccumulatedallsortsof materialthingsinthehopethatitwouldgivethemasenseof fulfillment.Then,tragically,towardstheendof theirlife,theyrealizeit’snotabigboatorabighouse—theydidn’tdoit—butthey’vemissedtheopportunitytotravelonthesortof journeythatTimandIandmanyothershavebeenon.

David:Thankyou for sharing that. It seems likepartof whatIhearbothof yousayingisthatthevalueof coachingandthevalueof learningisinhelpingustonoticethosemomentsof realizationandbeawakenedbythem.Oneof the joysof coachingisbeingabletocompletelyfocusonthehumanbeingthatisacrossfromyouandaskyourself,“Whatdoesthispersonneedmostrightnow?”

John:There’ssomethingIthinkisveryimportanttoaddherethatwehaven’ttouchedonyetthatIfeelImustmention.Whenwetalkabouthowwerelatetootherpeople,Ithinkthemostchallengingrelationshipsareourfamilyrelationships.I’vehadtwomarriagesandIhavelearnedsomuchfromthoseexperiences.Inonesense,bothmarriagesfailedintheend.Mysecondmarriagelastedfor27years,buttherewassomuchlearninganditwasalsopartof thelearningprocess.It’sunfortunatethatthewayweorganizeoursocietyisthattheserelationshipscomeandgoandthere’ssomuchsocialpressureonthem.Thetruebenefitsof thoserelationshipsareoftencoveredoverbythe‘shoulds’andhowweshouldliveinsociety.Tome,theyareanenormouschallengeandI’velearnedanenormousamount.IthinknowinmyoldageIprobablyhavefinallyunderstoodhowarelationshipshouldbe,butit’sgettingalittlebitlate.

David:Youneverknow. . . Is that true foryou,Tim,aswell?Haveyoufoundrelationshipstobeasimilarlearningground?

Tim:Greatlearningopportunities.Ijustwanttomentionaword[in this context] we haven’t mentioned — it is a special kind of learningcalled‘unlearning’anditmaybeasimportantaslearning.Learningnewthingsmaybeonlyhalf thejob,if that,asunlearningtheoldthingswe’vetakeninunconsciously—orsometimesevenconsciouslybutrealizethey’renotreallyourown—isperhapsevenmoreimportant.PerhapsIcouldgiveanexampleof unlearninginmyrelationshipwithmystep-children.QuitesometimeagoIwas

We’re not at the end of evolution; we’re at the beginning of it. It’s very exciting and it’s within everyone’s reach. It doesn’t have to come from outside. The answers we’re looking for are inside us, and that’s a tremendously hopeful and exciting possibility.

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doingworkinCopenhagenjustbeforeChristmas.Whenitcametimetogohome,Ifoundmyself feelinguncomfortableandevensomewhatreluctant.UponreflectionIrealizedmydiscomforthadtodowithnotwantingtofacetheproblemof giftsforthechildrenatChristmas–wouldtheybewhattheyhopedfor,wouldtheybeasgoodaswhattheirfriendswouldget,etc.?Inshort,Irealizedthatmyreluctancewasbased in thementaldefinitionIheldof my children. On further reflection I realized that my current“operating definition” of my children was of “problems to besolved.”Imeanbythisthatwhenaknockcameonthebedroomdoor, what I expected to come in was a problem waiting to besolved.Thisshockedme,andIaskedmyself whereIhadlearnedthatdefinition.

Theanswerwasobvious.Iwasa“problemtobesolved”formyfather,andIhadlearnedtobe,likehim,theproblemsolver.Thesewereprettysoberingreflections.WhenIaskedmyself,“Wasthisdefinition in keeping with my current commitments in life?”, itwasclear that itwasn’t. Iwantedtoenjoymy life,not justbeaproblemsolver.So I thoughtabout thenextquestion in the re-definitionprocess–“Whatdefinitionwouldalignwithmycurrentcommitment.”Theanswerwasclear,“Mychildrenaremyonlychancetoexperiencethekindof lovethatexistsbetweenparentsand their kids.” I went home with this new definition in theforegroundof mymindand,muchtomysurprise,theknocksonthedoorcameandproblemsdidn’twalkin.IwasunlearningtheolddefinitionthatallowedmetoreallyenjoythatChristmasandmychildrenonaneverydaybasis.

John:IwanttoreinforcewhatTimsaystherebecausewhatI’vefound—particularly in thecorporateworldwhen I’mworkingwithanorganizationtoshiftitsmanagementstylefrom‘commandandcontrol’towardsacoachingapproach—isthatthehardestthingistostopgivinginstructionsandbeingtheonewhosolvesproblems.Manypeoplefind itmoredifficult than the coachingworkitself becausetogivethatupisharderthanlearningthenew.Theyhavetogiveituptocreatethespaceforthenew,butIthinkthatiswhathumanbeingsfindso,sodifficult.

David:Idaresay,if onecanmakeageneralization,thatitcanbeparticularlychallengingforusmensometimesbecauseformanyof usthisoldstylewassocentraltoouridentity.

John:Absolutely.Thatwholeidentityissueof whoareyou.Westartoffbygivingourselveslabels.Whoareyou?I’macoachorI’matennisplayerorI’manex-racingdriverorI’mabusinessman.That’snotwhoweare.That’sjustthelabelsweputonourselves.Movingbeyondallthoselabelsthroughtheprocessof unlearningissuchanimportantpartof thatjourney.

aBout tHE autHors

Tim Gallwey

Email: innertim@earthlink.net

Tim Gallwey attended HarvardUniversity where he majored inEnglish Literature and captainedthe tennis team.In the1970’she embarked on an explorationbalancingouterandinnerdimensionsof life.Hehaswrittenaseriesof best-sellingbooks,startingwithThe Inner Game of Tennis.Thisbookestablishedanewmethodfor thedevelopmentof excellence in any kind of performance by reducing mentalinterference;itbecameaprimerforthenewfieldsof sportspsychologyand executive coaching.The Inner Game of Work set forth his findingsof thirtyyearsof coachinginmajorinternationalcorporations,enablingthemtobetterfacilitatechange.HislatestbookisThe Inner Game of Stress.Tim lives inMalibu,California.

John Whitmore, Ph.D.

Email: Johnwhitmore@performance consultants.com Web: www.performanceconsultants.com Phone: +44 (0) 207 737 6431

JohnWhitmorestartedinprofessionalsports (as a European championracing driver), then worked six yearsin various businesses before studyingleading-edgepsychologyinthe1970s.HestartedtheInner Gameorganizationin the UK under license from TimGallwey, first with a tennis and skischoolandlaterinbusiness.Johnwrotethebestsellingcoachingbook,Coaching for Performance,in1992andwonaseriesof nationaland internationalawardsandaPh.D.forhiscontributiontothecoachingprofession.

IJCO Issue 1 2009 | �3

David:Itis...IsthereanythingelseyouwouldliketoaddorsharethatIhavenotaskedaboutyetthatwouldhelpyoufeellikeyou’veroundedoutthisconversation.

John:Iwanttothankyouforcoachingusbecauseyou’veaskedsomequestionsthatforcemetolookatmyself andwhatIdoinanewway,andithasbeeninterestingtoseehowfarTimandIhavetraveled.Althoughweseeeachotherfromtimetotime, it’snotveryoften;we’reothersidesof theworld.Yetthesimilaritiesandconclusionswe’vecometoareprettysimilar.That’senriching.I’veenjoyedtheconversation.

David:Thankyou.HowaboutforyouTim?

Tim: I echo that. I’ve learneda lot. I’m just feeling rightnowthatif whatcomesoutof thisconversationeventuallyinwriting,whether it’s about coaching or learning, is that it’s really goodnewsthatthere’ssomuchmoretothehumanbeing.We’renotattheendof evolution;we’reatthebeginningof it.It’sveryexcitingand it’s within everyone’s reach. It doesn’t have to come fromoutside.Theanswerswe’relookingforareinsideus,andthat’satremendouslyhopefulandexcitingpossibility.

John:I’vebecomefascinatedbythiswholeprocessof evolutionin lookingathow thishugeprocessof humanity is evolving—boththecollectivejourneyandtheindividualjourneys.Ifindthatwholeprocessfascinating.

Tim:Themoreyou learnaboutyourself andwhatyouareasa human being, the more you automatically respect the otherhumanbeings thatyou’resharingtheplanetwith.Itworks thatway.It’sdisregardforthevalueof ahumanlifethatmakesussoready todispensewith it formerecauses. It’s allmoving in thesamedirection—individualevolutionandsocialevolution.

aBout tHE IntErvIEWEr

David B. Drake, Ph.D.

Phone: +61 0422 798 850Email: ddrake@narrativecoaching.comWebsite: www.narrativecoaching.com

DavidistheExecutiveDirectorof theCenterforNarrativeCoaching,withofficesinSydneyandSanFrancisco.TheCenterhashelpedorganizationssuch as Pricewaterhouse Coopers,NikeandtheU.S.Dept.of Health&Human Services to develop vibrantcoachingculturesthroughnarrative-andconversation-basedmethods.TheCenter offers advanced courses onnarrative coaching for professionalsaround the world, and it partnerswithotherleadersinthefieldsuchasNeuroPowerandLMAPtointegratenarrative coaching into theirorganizational transformation andleadership development programs.Davidco-editedThe Philosophy and Prac t i c e o f Coach ing : Ins i gh t s and Issues (Jossey-Bass, 2008, www.practiceofcoaching.com),servesontheeditorialboardforthreecoachingjournals,andhaswrittenoverthirtypublicationsonnarratives,evidence,andcoaching.

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