Exhibit 2 - wyoleg.gov · Exhibit 2. 1.800.444.2826 Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 831 1 Q. And in normal day-to-day communication, everybody 2 nods and shakes their heads and says

Exhibit 2

Angela Benner Testimony

Investigative Hearing

January 6-8, 2014

Exhibit 2

ccarls

Text Box

1.800.444.2826Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc.

829

1 second. Angela Benner. We had originally scheduled Angela

2 Benner to be the last of the witnesses prior to

3 Superintendent Hill. I'm advised that Ms. Benner has to go

4 to Riverton for Leadership Wyoming today. And so if it's

5 okay with everybody, I'm going to call her now.

6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Call your next witness,

7 Counsel.

8 MR. SALZBURG: We'll call Angela Benner.

9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Benner, did you

10 receive the initial advisement with your subpoena?

11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I did.

12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions

13 regarding that advisement?

14 THE WITNESS: No.

15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And you understand?

16 THE WITNESS: I do.

17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you please rise and

18 raise your right hand.

19 (Witness sworn.)

20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you.

21 Counsel.

22 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

23 ANGELA BENNER,

24 called for examination by the Select Investigative

25 Committee, being first duly sworn, on her oath testified as

Exhibit 2


830

1 follows:

2 EXAMINATION

3 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Ma'am, would you state your

4 full name, please.

5 A. Angela Benner.

6 Q. Miss Benner, have you been in the room during the

7 hearings yesterday and the day before?

8 A. No. I was listening to it over the Internet on

9 and off.

10 Q. Okay. Well, let me give you some short

11 guidelines for your testimony here today. First, with

12 regards to who is asking the question, you're entitled to

13 know and understand what the question asked is. So if I or

14 anybody else asks a question, will you, if you don't

15 understand for any reason, please ask us to rephrase, and

16 we'll be able to do that.

17 Second, there's a court reporter who is sitting

18 right here in front of me who is taking down your testimony

19 today as well as my questioning and everybody else's

20 questioning. It's important, therefore, that we don't talk

21 over each other. So if you'll let the question be fully

22 asked before you start your answer, we'll try to remember

23 to let you fully answer before we ask the next question,

24 okay?

25 A. Yes.

Exhibit 2


831

1 Q. And in normal day-to-day communication, everybody

2 nods and shakes their heads and says uh-huh and huh-uh. It

3 will be much clearer, if you are asked a yes or no

4 question, that you answer audibly with a yes or no

5 response.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. If you forget to do that, I'm going to remind you

8 to do that, all right?

9 I'm told that you need to get the microphone a

10 little closer to you so he can hear you.

11 A. Is that better?

12 Q. Ms. Benner, how are you currently employed?

13 A. I'm currently the human resource manager for the

14 Department of Administration and Information.

15 Q. Can you summarize your employment history for us?

16 A. I've been in human resources since 1999. I was

17 back in D.C. the human resource director for the American

18 Trucking Association, then I was in Phoenix the human

19 resource director and part of the executive team for the

20 Arizona Kidney Disease and Hypertension Center. I've

21 currently been with the State a little less than six years.

22 I started with A&I in the human resource division, then I

23 was the human resource manager for the Department of Family

24 Services for almost three years, and I've been back at A&I

25 since March of 2013.

Exhibit 2


832

1 Q. And, Miss Benner, what's your educational

2 background?

3 A. I have a Bachelor of Science from the University

4 of North Carolina in Greensboro in management and

5 marketing.

6 Q. Any other post-grad work?

7 A. No, other than I'm going through Leadership

8 Wyoming right now.

9 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to early

10 February of 2012 and the request that you conduct an

11 investigation into allegations that were made by Peg Brown-

12 Clark when she resigned her position as the division

13 director of the Wyoming Department of Education. Do you

14 recall that investigation?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Who asked that the investigation be done?

17 A. I was approached by Megan Meisen and Liz Gagen,

18 and then I had a request in the form of a letter from Cindy

19 Hill to conduct the investigation.

20 Q. And what was the purpose of the investigation?

21 A. Originally, it was to look into some employee

22 complaints coming out of employees from the Riverton

23 office, I believe, and it turned into something a little

24 bit more involved than that.

25 Q. After your -- your answer suggests that at some

Exhibit 2


833

1 point in time the scope of your investigation changed?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Tell us about the scope of your investigation as

4 you performed the investigation.

5 A. Well, originally I was brought into the Hathaway

6 basement for a meeting with the Department of Education

7 employees when they came out from Riverton, and at that

8 time it was communicated to the employees that they could

9 speak with me, that I was being brought in to hear any

10 complaints.

11 I did have quite a few employees from the

12 Hathaway Building come and talk to me. So at that point I

13 asked if I could -- they were talking to me about some

14 other concerns regarding recruitment processes and at-will

15 letters and some other personnel information. So I had

16 asked if I could expand the scope of my investigation and

17 look at personnel files and improvement files and the PAIL,

18 which is the payroll report.

19 Q. Can you summarize for us the nature of the

20 complaints that were made by the employee?

21 A. I can.

22 Q. Just for clarification, have you brought your

23 files with you today to refer to if you need to?

24 A. I have.

25 Q. Go ahead.

Exhibit 2


834

1 A. So the original allegations that I looked into,

2 five classified employees alleged that they signed at-will

3 letters. There are allegations that the highest scored

4 applicant was not always hired during the recruitment

5 process.

6 There was the appearance -- allegation of the

7 appearance that recruitments were not competitive and

8 preselection was occurring; an allegation that a contractor

9 was hired under a contract while dating an education

10 employee, and that education employee ended up indirectly

11 supervising the contractor, and then by the time the

12 education employee was supervising the contractor, they

13 were married.

14 Q. Did you complete your investigation?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. And did you prepare a report of your findings?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. What did you do with the report?

19 A. My normal process and what I did with this

20 process is I computer rough-drafted the report, and I

21 submit that to the AG's office for review. At that point

22 it was Liz Gagen. Liz and I reviewed it. At that point I

23 made some edits because the rough draft a lot of times

24 contains information that was not substantiated or there

25 wasn't enough information to fully come to a conclusion.

Exhibit 2


835

1 So I edited it and completed my final report and submitted

2 it to John Masters.

3 Q. This has been a point of confusion, I think. Was

4 your draft report given to Cathy MacPherson?

5 A. Both copies of my report were given to Cathy

6 MacPherson.

7 Q. Okay. So let's see if we can clarify what

8 happened. As a result of the Attorney General's Office

9 review of your draft report, was the report modified?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 Q. In what way?

12 A. There were three allegations, one that I didn't

13 have any information at all, and so my report was not

14 completed in the first draft. There were two other

15 allegations that did not have any -- enough information to

16 really come to any conclusions or determined if anything

17 had happened. So those three came out.

18 Q. Did you agree with the suggested modifications by

19 Ms. Gagen?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. And when you prepared the final report, to whom

22 did you give it?

23 A. That was given to John Masters.

24 Q. And did you meet with Mr. Masters regarding your

25 findings?

Exhibit 2


836

1 A. We did.

2 Q. If you'll look at that looseleaf notebook in

3 front of you, you should find a tab with your name on it

4 toward the back, if you can find under your name Exhibit 1.

5 Do you have it?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Does that appear to be the final report that you

8 made to Mr. Masters?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. And for the record, has that report been redacted

11 to delete names of individual employees and other

12 confidential information?

13 A. Yes, it has been redacted.

14 Q. So, to your knowledge -- it's my understanding

15 that in July the confidential report by Cathy MacPherson

16 was released on the request of one or more Wyoming news

17 outlets. Are you aware of that report?

18 A. I am aware of that.

19 Q. And does the report that now is Exhibit 1 match

20 the information that was publicly disclosed to the media?

21 A. It's been a while since I've looked at that. I

22 believe it does.

23 Q. All right. You can reference that report, if you

24 wish, or you can do it from your memory. Your choice. Can

25 you summarize the findings that you made in your final

Exhibit 2


837

1 report?

2 A. I did. And for the first allegation, I did find

3 it to appear that at least five classified employees were

4 required to sign at-will letters upon hire, which was in

5 conflict with an Attorney General's opinion letter that had

6 previously been received.

7 I also did find that more likely than not that

8 the highest scored applicant was not always hired. I did

9 find that education recruitments were not always

10 competitive, and it appeared that certain people were being

11 preselected to fill the vacancies. And I also found

12 that -- oh, there's still an initial here -- the employee

13 was at one point being indirectly supervised by her spouse.

14 Q. Do you know why you were -- at the time you were

15 the human resource manager for the Department of Family

16 Services, correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Did the Department of Education have a human

19 resource manager?

20 A. They did, Megan Meisen.

21 Q. And do you know why you were asked to perform

22 this investigation as opposed to the in-house HR manager?

23 A. Well, it's not unusual to be -- to partner with

24 other agencies for investigations. There's not that many

25 HR professionals in the state who can conduct personnel

Exhibit 2


838

1 investigations, and often when it's a larger scope and

2 involves a good portion of the agency, we'll ask other HR

3 professionals outside of the agency to come in and be a

4 more neutral factfinder.

5 It's not the first time I've done that.

6 Currently I do human resources for ten agencies. So I do

7 partner with a lot of different agencies even right now.

8 Also, their HR manager was relatively new and did

9 not have a lot of human resource experience and did not

10 know how to conduct the investigation, I believe, of this

11 scope.

12 Q. When you conducted your investigation, did any of

13 the employees express any concerns to you about potential

14 retaliation for any complaints that they made?

15 A. They did.

16 Q. Can you give us some estimate of the number of

17 employees who had that concern?

18 A. I would say a good majority of them. A lot of

19 them came to me as partners. They did not want to come

20 alone. They wanted to meet in my office. I'm on a

21 different floor. So they didn't want to be seen talking

22 with me. I --

23 Q. Go ahead.

24 A. I would say that's not particularly unusual when

25 you're conducting an investigation of that size.

Exhibit 2


839

1 Q. You mentioned that the Department of Education HR

2 manager was new, relatively inexperienced. First of all,

3 what's the basis for that comment? How do you know that?

4 A. She had talked with me quite a bit. She would

5 call me even prior to the investigation, just ask me basic

6 human resource questions, such as how are personnel files

7 kept, how do you handle ADA, that sort of thing, basic

8 human resource functions.

9 Q. Are those functions something that you would

10 expect a human resource professional to be trained in?

11 A. Yes, especially if they're the supervisor or

12 manager level.

13 Q. Do you know what was done about the formal

14 findings that you made in your report?

15 A. After I presented them to John Masters?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I'm not officially aware. I do know I ran into

18 some Department of Education employees after the

19 investigation because I had worked in the same building as

20 them, and they were under the opinion that I would be

21 continuing to follow up with them after the investigation

22 was completed, but that was not part of my role. So I do

23 not -- according to them, they were never followed up with,

24 but I do not know officially.

25 Q. In your view as a human resource professional,

Exhibit 2


840

1 who is responsible to address the findings that you made?

2 A. That's one of the -- a good question because we

3 don't -- the State does not have a formal investigation

4 process. I could tell you what my normal process would be,

5 which is not a formal process. Is that what you would like

6 me to talk about?

7 Q. No. My question is really what did you expect to

8 happen as a result of the findings in your investigation?

9 A. I would have expected that follow-up letters

10 would have gone out to each of the employees that had

11 participated in the investigation. If that was not clear

12 and that had remained confidential, I would have expected

13 an overall statement to go out to all employees that the

14 investigation had been concluded and things were

15 substantiated or not. And then if -- in a very broad

16 statement, if any personnel concerns had come up, they

17 would be addressed individually.

18 Q. And who, in your opinion, should have taken those

19 actions?

20 A. That would usually come from the human resource

21 manager or occasionally the director.

22 Q. The director is who?

23 A. For the education, it would have been the

24 superintendent, but most often, it would come from the

25 human resource manager.

Exhibit 2


841

1 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Masters ever shared your

2 report with the superintendent?

3 A. I do not know.

4 Q. So there's an investigation that you did. There

5 were findings that you made. You suggested that there were

6 problems in the agency, correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And so far as you are aware from subsequent

9 comments from the employees of the Department of Education,

10 there was nothing ever done.

11 A. That's how it would appear, yes.

12 Q. One of the functions of this committee is to

13 consider potential legislative responses to problems that

14 are identified as a result of this hearing. Do you have

15 any view about what might be done to try and see that this

16 kind of thing is properly addressed?

17 A. I do have an opinion about that. There is a

18 problem right now that there is a very small handful of

19 human resource professionals who can conduct

20 investigations, and it becomes a very awkward situation

21 when you -- for example, if you are conducting an

22 investigation of your own agency that's agencywide, it

23 becomes very awkward to continue to have a human resource

24 relationship with those employees when you are conducting a

25 very uncomfortable investigation into them. And it also

Exhibit 2


842

1 happens that those of us who do conduct the investigations,

2 it becomes a full-time job where we're out doing

3 investigations quite a bit.

4 So it might not -- I know some ideas have been

5 tossed around about -- just casual talk about maybe having

6 the investigative team for personnel within the state

7 wherever that would end up being housed.

8 Q. All right. Now I'd like to direct your attention

9 to the time frame around January 23rd of 2013. Do you

10 recall the events of that day?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. What happened?

13 A. Can I get out my notes on that one?

14 Q. You can.

15 A. So on that day, I was called again by my director

16 at the time, Steve Corsi, and was asked to go down to the

17 Department of Education, that they needed my assistance

18 with another investigation.

19 So I did go down and met with Cindy Hill and Sam

20 Shumway, and there was a letter that had been given out

21 to I believe it was Representative Lubnau from an employee

22 at education talking about external accountability in

23 Senate File 104. And at that point to be -- I don't -- was

24 not following the news at that point. I'd been in the news

25 so much, I was trying to not listen to that anymore, and I

Exhibit 2


843

1 didn't realize everything -- I knew what was happening in

2 education, but I didn't know what was happening on that

3 particular day. So I found out that that was the day that

4 they were getting ready to vote for Senate File 104.

5 But they had asked -- they said that there had

6 been a meeting in -- oh, was it November? There had been a

7 meeting prior, earlier at the Department of Education where

8 they had had a video shown in a meeting that involved a

9 video by a gentleman named Dr. Fullan. I am not sure. I

10 think it was F-u-l-l-a-n, I believe. And it was about

11 external accountability, and Cindy Hill and Sam Shumway had

12 asked me if I would interview some of the employees who had

13 been at that meeting and talk with them.

14 I was on my way to another meeting, so I asked if

15 I could come back up later in the afternoon and meet with

16 them and prepare for that.

17 So I did go back down to Family Services and then

18 came back up later to education, and I went back into Sam

19 Shumway's office and I met with Cindy Hill. She had a list

20 of people ready for me to question, and she had questions

21 for me to ask, and then she left the office and sent the

22 first employee into me and into Sam Shumway's office.

23 Q. Okay. Let's stop there. At the time -- we've

24 already heard testimony from Beth VanDeWege about the

25 letter that I think you're referring to that was sent to

Exhibit 2


844

1 Speaker Lubnau. At the time that you were asked to come

2 and assist with this investigation, were you aware of what

3 that letter said?

4 A. I did not read the letter at that time.

5 Q. Were you aware at the time that the legislature

6 was in session and was considering Senate File 104?

7 A. No. Later in the day I became aware of that,

8 though.

9 Q. So you said you were asked to pose some questions

10 to the individual employees who had been marshalled for you

11 to interview?

12 A. Correct. At that time I didn't realize they were

13 being gathered. I knew that they were going to be sent

14 down to me, but I thought it would be one on one.

15 Q. Okay. So who prepared the questions that you

16 were supposed to ask of these employees?

17 A. Cindy Hill gave -- recommended the questions to

18 me. I did not see that there was an issue with any of the

19 questions, so I used those questions.

20 Q. And what were the questions?

21 A. Okay. So those questions were -- let me go to

22 those. You do remember the day Superintendent Hill met

23 with a group and showed a video of Dr. Fullan. Do you have

24 any concerns? And what did you hear Superintendent Hill

25 say?

Exhibit 2


845

1 Q. Where were the interviews conducted?

2 A. The first one was in Sam Shumway's office, and

3 after that I moved into Cindy Hill's office, on the couch

4 in her office.

5 Q. And where were the employees who were to be

6 interviewed?

7 A. Are you asking me at that moment what was I aware

8 of or what did I later find out where the employees were?

9 Q. Both.

10 A. At that point I thought employees were being

11 called from their offices one at a time to come down and

12 talk with me, but I later found out that they were lined up

13 in the hall outside of the office.

14 Q. Was anybody with the employees when they were

15 lined up in the hallway?

16 A. There were. Jerry Zellars and Kevin Lewis and

17 Cindy Hill. I'm not sure how long they were all in the

18 hall, but they were on and off in the hall while the

19 employees were standing there.

20 Q. While you were conducting the interviews, did

21 Superintendent Hill enter her office?

22 A. She did on two different occasions while I had

23 employees in there.

24 Q. Did you understand that your interviews of these

25 employees should have been conducted just one on one?

Exhibit 2


846

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that a common HR technique?

3 A. To interview -- conduct interviews just one on

4 one? Yes.

5 Q. Yes. Was it disturbing to you in any way that

6 the employees ended up lined up in the hallway waiting to

7 come in and see you?

8 A. I was concerned because it made the employees a

9 little bit more reluctant to talk to me, and it didn't feel

10 very confidential to them.

11 Q. When you arrived at the superintendent's office,

12 do you recall what Superintendent Hill was doing?

13 A. The first time or the second time?

14 Q. Let's talk about both.

15 A. The first time it was just Superintendent Hill

16 and Sam Shumway in Sam Shumway's office just waiting for

17 me.

18 Q. When was the second time? Explain, first of all,

19 when the second time occurred.

20 A. The second time was when I came up after my

21 meeting to get the list of questions and who I'd be meeting

22 with and start talking with the employees.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And at that time Superintendent Hill was upset.

25 She was talking with somebody on the phone, somebody from

Exhibit 2


847

1 up on the hill here with the name of Gary, but I don't know

2 who it was, what the last name was, and I don't know what

3 piece of the legislation it was from.

4 Q. Did you come to some conclusion regarding why you

5 were brought in to conduct these interviews?

6 A. This would just be my opinion.

7 Q. Uh-hum.

8 A. I felt that I was trying to get some -- well, I

9 don't know if I was trying to get this information or that

10 it was hopefully going to come out that there was some

11 information to counteract what was stated in that letter.

12 Q. And the letter you're referring to is the one

13 from Miss VanDeWege?

14 A. Miss VanDeWege.

15 Q. What did you find out from the employees that you

16 interviewed?

17 A. I can tell you their overall concerns. Most

18 of -- a good majority of the employees felt that the

19 meeting was held in response to something going on in the

20 media. It was a last-minute e-mail -- a last-minute

21 meeting with an e-mail sent out a little before 11:00 for

22 an 11:00 a.m. meeting on that day.

23 The reason is -- I'll just read a little bit here

24 if you don't mind as what came out of it. The reason

25 that --

Exhibit 2


848

1 THE REPORTER: Can you start over?

2 A. Of course. Most employees believed that the

3 meeting was held in response to something going on in the

4 media. It was a last-minute meeting with an e-mail sent

5 out a little before 11:00 a.m. for an 11:00 a.m. meeting.

6 The recent history of media events and the background to

7 how these came to be were discussed.

8 The employees also believed it was to educate the

9 employees and help with fragmentation. They also believed

10 that the intent of the meeting was to help show employees

11 how efforts were being made to fix this fragmentation.

12 Other employees believed that the intent was to

13 justify Superintendent Hill's actions that employees were

14 not happy and that Superintendent Hill supported the

15 content of the video and wanted to continue these teachings

16 in Wyoming.

17 Also during this meeting employees were asked to

18 stand up and move forward a step for each pledge that they

19 responded yes to. These pledges included pledges to

20 support leadership and Superintendent Hill.

21 Once all employees moved forward, the group held

22 hands. The employees were not comfortable and felt that

23 the pledges and the hand holding were inappropriate and

24 awkward.

25 The employees did go around and introduce

Exhibit 2


849

1 themselves and spoke of their function in the agency, and

2 they did enjoy that piece.

3 So those were the overall comments that came out

4 of my investigation that day.

5 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) And for clarity, is what you

6 just read your work?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did Mr. Shumway ask you to provide a summary of

9 your report of your interviews?

10 A. He did.

11 Q. And did you do that?

12 A. I did, but not initially.

13 Q. And why not initially?

14 A. My normal process as I did in the first

15 investigation was to go through the Attorney General's

16 Office before I submit anything to the agency. And I was

17 asked at that point not to go to the attorney general, and

18 I was not comfortable with that. So I did not submit the

19 documentation at that time.

20 I did at that point contact Liz Gagen because

21 that is my normal process, and she did help me prepare

22 something to send over at that time.

23 Q. Do you know what Sam Shumway's position was at

24 the Department of Education?

25 A. Legal counsel.

Exhibit 2


850

1 Q. Did he -- who was it that asked you not to share

2 that information with the Attorney General's Office?

3 A. That was Sam Shumway.

4 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't want you to share

5 that information with the Attorney General's Office?

6 A. He told me that they would go ahead and review

7 the information I sent over and then decided if it needed

8 to be shared with the AG's office.

9 Q. So what did you do?

10 A. I went ahead and contacted Liz Gagen at the

11 Attorney General's Office.

12 Q. And did you ultimately prepare at least a short

13 summary report to Mr. Shumway?

14 A. I did. It was that e-mail, and that is what I

15 just read to you.

16 Q. Okay. I wasn't aware that you were reading from

17 the e-mail. Would you look at in the exhibit book Benner

18 Exhibit 2?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And so these are your conclusions that you

21 shared with Sam Shumway?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Did you have any further conversation with

24 Mr. Shumway about that e-mail?

25 A. I did. At this time I took notes of every

Exhibit 2


851

1 conversation so that I was very clear. So what happened

2 next, on January -- let me see what day it was -- January

3 28th I was out of the office. I was working but outside of

4 the office that day, and Sam Shumway and Megan Meisen, who

5 became Megan Harper, came down to my office to see me, and

6 I was not there. So Sam called me on my cell phone. Would

7 you like me to state what that conversation was about?

8 Q. Yes, yes.

9 A. So he stated that they did not agree with part of

10 my summary in the e-mail when I wrote that employees were

11 uncomfortable pledging to support leadership and

12 Superintendent Hill. He stated that he was at that meeting

13 and felt that it was more of a promise to serve the

14 children of Wyoming, and I let him know that this was not

15 my opinion or my wording, that this was just the summary of

16 what the employees I had spoken with had spoken about in my

17 summary of what my meetings had contained.

18 Shumway said that Superintendent Hill was quite

19 upset about this and that I did not need to move forward

20 with any steps, that this was the end of my involvement.

21 Q. Did he suggest to you that you needed to change

22 your summary about what the employees told you?

23 A. He did not say those exact words to me, no.

24 Q. The answer suggests that you had the opinion.

25 A. It felt that way to me. But that's not exactly

Exhibit 2


852

1 what he said.

2 Q. Did you change your summary in any way?

3 A. No.

4 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

5 That's all I have for Miss Benner. Do you want me to ask

6 the basic questions from Superintendent Hill?

7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Please.

8 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you. If I could find

9 them.

10 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Miss Benner, the

11 superintendent was given an opportunity to provide

12 questions that she wants all witnesses to answer.

13 Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury

14 and that you are subject to those penalties should you

15 provide false testimony?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you speak to anyone prior to today about your

18 testimony before this committee, including Mr. Jarosh,

19 Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their firms, members

20 of the legislature or other staff or employees of the

21 State, such as the Governor's Office or the Wyoming

22 Department of Education regarding these proceedings today

23 or Senate File 104?

24 A. I have spoken with you, Bruce Salzburg. On

25 November 26th, I met with you for two hours, and you called

Exhibit 2


853

1 me prior to that to set up that meeting. And I also spoke

2 with you on December 30th for an hour and a half, and what

3 we spoke about was what we've spoken about today. I've

4 also spoken with the Attorney General's Office a little bit

5 when I've had questions about some information I was

6 talking about --

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. -- with Liz Gagen.

9 Q. All right. I don't want you to talk about

10 conversations that you had with Liz Gagen if they related

11 to attorney-client advice, all right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But your conversations with me, can you describe

14 those in detail?

15 A. In our first meeting I brought in all of my

16 documentation, and you asked me some questions about some

17 of the information I had provided through the original

18 subpoena through Dean Fausset, and I answered questions

19 about that. That was our first two-hour meeting.

20 And then our second meeting on December 30th was

21 just to talk with me a little bit about that I would --

22 that I was going to be testifying and to talk with me a

23 little bit about that.

24 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives

25 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and, if

Exhibit 2


854

1 based on speculation, conjecture or opinion, must be stated

2 as such?

3 A. You asked me if I was aware that I would be under

4 oath, and I said yes. And you asked me if I knew what that

5 meant, and I said yes.

6 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence

7 related to your testimony?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. Have you provided those documents to the

10 committee and the superintendent?

11 A. I have provided them to the committee through a

12 subpoena and also through the MacPherson report.

13 Q. Do the statements attributed to you in the

14 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to that

15 committee?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you affirm under oath all of the statements

18 attributed to you in the MacPherson report?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. SALZBURG: I'm finished. Thank you,

21 Mr. Chairman.

22 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you,

23 Mr. Salzburg. Unless you want to take over.

24 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: He left me in

25 charge --

Exhibit 2


855

1 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Okay.

2 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: -- believe it or

3 not.

4 Mr. Salzburg, were there any topics with this

5 witness that required executive session?

6 MR. SALZBURG: I spoke briefly with

7 Miss Benner beforehand. We had redacted all the

8 information from the report that might be confidential. I

9 did that in consult with the Attorney General's Office. I

10 advised Ms. Benner before I asked her to come and testify

11 that if we got into questions related to specific employees

12 that she was not to identify them by name. If the

13 committee is going to ask questions about particular

14 employees by name, then we may have to go into executive

15 session.

16 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Committee, any

17 questions for this witness? Representative Stubson.

18 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you, ma'am.

19 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE

20 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Chairman and

21 Ms. Benner. Just a couple of questions about this -- the

22 meeting and the interviews that you did in January. The

23 list of questions that you were given, I'm just curious if

24 that is a common practice when you do an investigation that

25 you're given a script of questions or are you usually given

Exhibit 2


856

1 issues to look into? How does that typically work?

2 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Stubson, normally

3 I would develop those questions myself based upon the

4 issues and then develop additional questions as the

5 interview went on.

6 Q. Madam Chairman and Ms. Benner, in this particular

7 case when you conducted the interviews, did you develop

8 your own questions as you went along or did you kind of

9 stick with that script that was provided to you by the

10 superintendent?

11 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Stubson, I just

12 stuck with the questions that I had been given.

13 Q. Madam Chairman and Ms. Benner, did employees

14 voluntarily go beyond that during their time with you? Did

15 they provide you additional information or did you find

16 that they stuck pretty close with that?

17 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Stubson, some

18 employees did go above and beyond that. There were some

19 employees that I had met with previously in the first

20 investigation, and they talked a little bit more freely

21 with me.

22 Q. And Madam Chair and Ms. Benner, how much time,

23 approximately, did you spend with each of the employees

24 that you've met with?

25 A. Madam Chair. Representative Stubson, it was very

Exhibit 2


857

1 short, maybe -- some employees weren't even at the meeting,

2 so that would have been a couple of minutes. Maybe five,

3 ten minutes with each one for an average.

4 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: All right. Thank

5 you.

6 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Representative

7 Zwonitzer.

8 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thanks, Madam

9 Chairman.

10 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Miss Benner, you

11 said after your second interaction with the leadership team

12 that you decided to take notes of every conversation from

13 this point on. Why?

14 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer, I --

15 you're asking me an opinion question.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. So I felt that it was odd the way that it was

18 being conducted, and it was not my normal process, so I

19 felt that I needed to document everything that was

20 happening.

21 Q. Did you express -- Madam Chairman -- express

22 concerns to Director Corsi or Ms. Gagen that this was out

23 of your realm of expertise or that the project was not what

24 you were told originally?

25 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer, I did

Exhibit 2


858

1 express concerns to my director at the time that not

2 necessarily that it was outside of my area of expertise,

3 but that I felt uncomfortable with the way things were

4 being conducted. I did not go into details with him

5 because it wasn't appropriate to share with another agency

6 director what was happening with another agency.

7 Q. Madam Chairman. In your meetings with all these

8 employees, did any of them express concerns with their

9 current HR manager, Miss Meisen, Harper, or express

10 concerns they could go to her with these type of issues?

11 A. Madam Chair. Representative Zwonitzer, are you

12 talking about the first investigation or the second one?

13 Q. I would say either. During your time

14 interviewing WDE employees, did any of them express

15 concerns --

16 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Could you start

17 over? "During your time..."

18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) During your

19 interview that you conducted with WDE employees, did any of

20 the employees express concerns with their HR supervisor or

21 the fact that they couldn't go to her?

22 A. During the first investigation, I would say yes

23 to that. They were concerned that she had lack of

24 experience, and they weren't comfortable that she would

25 know exactly what she was doing. They were also -- they

Exhibit 2


859

1 also mentioned that they felt she was part of the

2 leadership team, which they did not have an overall trust

3 for, so they did not trust her either is what was stated to

4 me.

5 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Any additional

6 questions, committee?

7 I have a couple, and then you can take over

8 again.

9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Ms. Benner, with

10 regard to the January 2013 interview series, what was the

11 human resources issue as you understood it when you were

12 asked to conduct those interviews?

13 A. Madam Chairman, that's a very good question. A

14 lot of times whenever something involves employees or

15 something that's happened during a meeting, there's not

16 really another avenue necessarily to go to to do the

17 questioning. So sometimes human resources are called in to

18 activities that you might not know if they're human

19 resources or not at the beginning. But whenever it

20 involves personnel, I think that that would have been why I

21 was brought in because it involved personnel in a meeting

22 that happened in personnel satisfaction.

23 Q. During the interview process, did you identify

24 the human resource issue, any personnel rule issue,

25 anything of that nature?

Exhibit 2


860

1 A. Madam Chairman, no.

2 Q. And then my last question is really sort of a

3 policy question because obviously you are an expert in this

4 field. In your opinion, in state government would it be

5 better to have HR folks who are classified employees so

6 that employees perhaps would feel more comfortable going to

7 them, that they'd -- that the HR person would be a little

8 more insulated from management in a classified position?

9 A. Madam Chairman, do you mean classified versus at

10 will?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Most human resource professionals in the state

13 are classified. There's only a handful that are at will.

14 So...

15 Q. And do you believe -- I'll be more specific about

16 WDE. Do you think it mattered at WDE that the human

17 resource person was an at-will employee?

18 A. Madam Chairman, that's a good question. I think

19 for the human resource manager herself, I think it's better

20 for a human resource professional to be classified because

21 it does put you in an awkward situation. When you're at

22 will a lot of times you're going against -- giving

23 recommendations against management's decisions, and you're

24 kind of the counter to what they're saying. So that is

25 awkward for a human resource professional.

Exhibit 2


861

1 For the employees I don't know if that would make

2 a difference to them or not. It might appear to them that

3 the human resource manager is less likely. I would hope

4 that this would not be the case. And from the human

5 resource professionals that are never at will, that would

6 not be the case, but for the employees, I would wonder

7 about that.

8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.

9 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you,

10 Mr. Chairman.

11 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) Just to get the

12 chronology kind of in order. The report that was written

13 in March of 2012, in the summary of that you refer to the

14 first time on that next summary page, the five classified

15 employees were required to sign letters upon hire to

16 conflict and conflict to the attorney general's opinion

17 that was previously stated. Is that the Office of the

18 Attorney General's opinion that's in our packet dated

19 August 25, 2011?

20 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Patton, let me find

21 that letter for you. It is the one that's dated August 25,

22 2011, yes. Is that the date that you had said? I'm sorry.

23 Q. So follow-up, Mr. Chairman. Is it my assumption,

24 then, that you were aware of this letter at the time that

25 you made the investigations in August and March for 2012?

Exhibit 2


862

1 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Patton, yes, I was

2 aware of the letter.

3 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you.

4 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Mr. Speaker.

5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.

6 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Thanks.

7 Another -- a pending question, but in your professional

8 opinion working for the State of Wyoming in human

9 resources, classified employees are required to meet

10 minimum education and experience standards to be hired. Do

11 you believe that if a WDE human resource position had been

12 a classified position with a position description that the

13 HR supervisor, Megan Harper, would have met the minimum

14 qualifications to obtain that position as a classified

15 employee?

16 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer, I don't

17 know the answer to that. The minimum qualifications even

18 with the classified employee are very minimal. So

19 sometimes education in general is enough without

20 experience. I don't know at that position what the

21 minimums would have been and what her educational

22 background was, if she would have qualified or not.

23 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay.

24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions,

25 committee?

Exhibit 2


863

1 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Miss Benner, Superintendent

2 Hill has e-mailed me a list of questions that she would

3 like me to ask you.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. So these are questions from Superintendent Hill.

6 Would you please provide the notes, sir -- would you please

7 provide the notes that you referred to during your

8 testimony to the committee and to the superintendent? Are

9 you comfortable doing that?

10 A. Mr. Chairman, which notes?

11 Q. The notes that you -- you referred to an e-mail.

12 Were there other notes that you referred to in your

13 testimony?

14 A. It was the -- Mr. Chairman, it was the

15 information I submitted to the committee.

16 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: It's Exhibit 1.

17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay.

18 A. And Exhibit 2 as well, the one that I read from.

19 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 2. So

20 they've already been submitted?

21 A. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

22 Q. Who else was present when you spoke with John

23 Masters on March 5, 2012?

24 A. Mr. Chairman, that was Liz Gagen.

25 Q. Did the superintendent want an independent review

Exhibit 2


864

1 so she could receive your independent advice?

2 A. Mr. Chairman, yes, but my contact that I was

3 advised by Superintendent Hill was to be John Masters.

4 Q. Were you aware of any retaliation by the

5 superintendent related to your work?

6 A. Mr. Chairman, no.

7 Q. Were you aware of any retaliation by the

8 superintendent at any time?


10 Q. Was Megan Meisen newly hired at the time she

11 required your assistance?

12 A. Mr. Chairman, I believe that she was.

13 Q. Isn't it the role of your present job to provide

14 HR training to HR managers and supervisors?

15 A. Mr. Chairman, no, not outside of my own agency.

16 Q. Did you provide HR training to Ms. Meisen?

17 A. Mr. Chairman, no, but if she did call me with

18 questions, I would answer them. That is something we do

19 amongst ourselves in the human resources field here.

20 Q. Did you advise Miss Megan to issue the follow-up

21 letters that you described?


23 Q. Have you ever asked questions to any other HR

24 professionals?

25 A. Mr. Chairman, in general or about anything

Exhibit 2


865

1 specific?

2 Q. I think in general. Just have you ever asked

3 somebody for advice I think is the point of that.

4 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know if I've necessarily

5 asked for advice, but we do talk. We sometimes have

6 meetings to go over human resource changes.

7 Q. Are you currently the HR professional for the

8 office of the Wyoming superintendent?

9 A. Mr. Chairman, I am. That's one of my ten

10 agencies I support right now.

11 Q. At any time did you receive complaints from the

12 staff of the Office of Superintendent of Public

13 Instruction?

14 A. Mr. Chairman, yes.

15 Q. Did you investigate those complaints?

16 A. Mr. Chairman, no, because they were not employees

17 of OSPI. They were employees of another agency of which

18 I'm not human resources, and I was not permissioned to do

19 an investigation there.

20 Q. Isn't it true that you assigned the OSPI

21 complaints to a brand-new HR manager at the WDE to

22 investigate?

23 A. Mr. Chairman, she was the human resource manager

24 who replaced Megan Meisen. I don't know if she was

25 brand-new human resource manager in general, but I know she

Exhibit 2


866

1 was new to education, and that was through the advisement

2 of the Attorney General's Office, yes.

3 Q. Why did you refuse to investigate those

4 complaints?

5 A. Mr. Chairman, I did not refuse to investigate

6 them. It was not -- it was not appropriate for me to

7 investigate another agency's employees without the request

8 of the director of that agency asking me to.

9 Q. Isn't it true that Superintendent Hill asked you

10 to interview these employees so she could get a greater

11 understanding about potential employee concerns?

12 A. Mr. Chairman, that's correct. And I did pass

13 everything to Shauna Cobb, the HR manager at the time. And

14 that would have been her role or the director at that

15 time's role of education to do or, if they so desired, ask

16 me to participate in that.

17 Q. Do you think your work provided greater

18 understanding for those involved?

19 A. Mr. Chairman, I would say yes.

20 Q. Are you now the HR director for the State of

21 Wyoming -- you are now the HR director for the State of

22 Wyoming; isn't that correct?

23 A. Mr. Chairman, no, not for the whole State of

24 Wyoming. Just for A&I and those other nine agencies I

25 support.

Exhibit 2


867

1 Q. As HR director of the State of Wyoming, do you

2 have any concern about the public release of the MacPherson

3 report, particularly the confidential portion of the report

4 which included a great deal of personnel information?

5 A. Mr. Chairman, I feel that that went through the

6 process it needed to go through to be released. I did

7 not -- I don't have an opinion about that.

8 Q. And you indicated that in your first

9 investigation employees expressed concerns about Megan

10 Meisen. Where did you discuss these concerns in your

11 report?

12 A. Mr. Chairman, I did not address those concerns in

13 that report, but let me see one thing, if you don't mind.

14 I did discuss that with Liz Gagen, but I did not put that

15 as part of my report. It was not an allegation that came

16 out. It was something that was -- it would not have been

17 part of my report typically.

18 Q. In your current position are you an at-will

19 employee?

20 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

21 "It would have been a part of my report"?

22 THE WITNESS: It would not have typically

23 been a piece of my report. It would not have typically

24 been a piece of my report.

25 A. Mr. Chairman, I am not an at-will employee right

Exhibit 2


868

1 now. I'm classified.

2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Benner -- committee,

3 do you have any questions?

4 Miss Benner, those are all the questions we have.

5 Thank you very much for coming and spending part of your

6 morning with us.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I know these are never

9 fun, but thank you for sharing with us.


11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee, any objections

12 to releasing Miss Benner from her subpoena?

13 Miss Benner, you are released.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Have a safe trip to

16 Riverton?


18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, would you call

19 your next witness.

20 MR. SALZBURG: Bill Pannell, please.

21 CHAIRMAN LUBNAU: Mr. Pannell, did you

22 receive the initial advisement with your subpoena?

23 THE WITNESS: I did.

24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And did you read it?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

Exhibit 2

Documents

Exhibit 2 - wyoleg.gov · Exhibit 2. 1.800.444.2826 Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 831 1 Q. And in normal day-to-day communication, everybody 2 nods and shakes their heads and says