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© Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2007

Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI William A. Sullivan (1948 – 1975)

Interviewed by Clarence H. “Larry” Campbell On April 23, 2007

Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on June 6, 2007. Final edits made from Mr. Sullivan’s corrections by Sandra Robinette on July 6, 2007. Clarence H. Campbell: Today is Monday, April 23, 2007. The speaker here is Larry

Campbell; full name Clarence H. Campbell, the interviewer. I’m at my home here in San Diego, California, I’m awaiting the arrival of Bill Sullivan, former Assistant Director in Los Angeles, and we’ll start off the tape by talking a little about how he came into the Bureau and a little bit about his history. He has picked about four or five cases he tells me that he would like to discuss.

Alright, Bill has arrived. It’s a little after ten on Monday,

April 23rd, and we filled out the necessary paperwork regarding the Copyright Release and Background Information, and Bill has given his dates of service as May 17, 1948, ending July 5th of 1975. Bill, welcome. Why don’t we start off with a little bit of what would interest you; why you decided to become an FBI Agent in the first place.

William A. Sullivan: I was in World War II. I enlisted in the Marine Corps on

December 31, 1941, and went overseas with the 3rd Marine Division, received a commission overseas and was discharged in January 1946. I returned to college for one year; received my degree in 1947; was teaching and coaching in Florida and I ran into the Senior Resident Agent from Jacksonville in about January 1948. He asked how would I like to join the FBI? And I explained to him that I didn’t think I was qualified. He assured me that with my background in the Marine Corps, being an officer and a college graduate that I would qualify because the Bureau was in need of Agents.

I then went to Miami, Florida where I was interviewed by

SAC Kit Carson. Then April 1948, I was offered an appointment and I entered on duty on May 17, 1948, in Washington, DC.

William A. Sullivan April 23, 2007 Page 2

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Campbell: Why don’t you tell us what was your first duty station and then maybe a brief summary of your career; like where you went after that and ending up in, I assume, LA. was it? Okay.

Sullivan: My first assignment was Indianapolis, Indiana. I was there

for four months. I transferred to Detroit in December of 1948, and I remained in Detroit until 1959. While I was in Detroit, I worked Security work for a year; transferred over to Criminal work. Worked on the Criminal Squad, mostly Bank Robberies and Fugitives, Theft from Interstate Shipment, until about 1955, when I became a Supervisor.

I supervised a myriad of cases including Bank Robberies,

Kidnappings, Extortions and, in 1959, I was transferred to FBI Headquarters. I was at FBI Headquarters from about 1959 to 1965. I spent a year on the Inspection Staff as an Aide and then I went to Butte, Montana, as ASAC.

I was in Butte from 1965 to 1966. Due to the hearing

deficiency of my youngest daughter, I was transferred as a Supervisor to New Haven, Connecticut. I was in New Haven for approximately a year and, in 1967, I transferred to Tampa, Florida, as ASAC. I stayed in Tampa from 1967 until 1969, when I transferred to FBI Headquarters as an Inspector.

In 1970, I was made SAC at Mobile, Alabama. I spent

approximately a year at Mobile and then transferred to St. Louis; spent approximately a year and a half in St. Louis; went to Philadelphia in 1972. I went to Philadelphia as SAC, and stayed there until January of 1974, when I was made Assistant Director in Charge of the Los Angeles Office. I was there from January of 1974 until I retired in July of 1975.

Campbell: Okay, Bill, I know we’ve talked a lot at the various

luncheons about some of the cases you’ve worked on. You brought some notes here so I think I’ll just let you start off. Which one would you want to start off with first?


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Sullivan: When I was the ASAC in Butte, Montana, in October 1965, Wayne Virgil Miller escaped from an Oregon prison and came into Idaho. Idaho was in the Butte territory at the time. He kidnapped, on two occasions, individuals and their automobiles; he let them out, didn’t harm them. We put out an alert to law enforcement in Montana and Idaho. The Sheriff from Salmon, Idaho, one morning saw an individual hitchhiking on the road. He stopped to check him out to see who he was and this individual turned out to be Miller, who got the drop on the Sheriff and forced the Sheriff to start driving him into the mountains, there in northern Idaho. He also took the Sheriff’s .357 Magnum. The Sheriff, figuring that he was going to either be killed or left in the mountains, going around one of the curves, deliberately turned his car over down the hill, opened the door, and escaped from Miller.

We sent Agents - the SAC was Bob Evans - over to Idaho.

They spent two or three days over there looking for Miller and were unable to find him. They returned to their various offices, RAs and the Butte Headquarters. A day or so later, another sighting of Miller in the mountains was reported. FBI Agents and local officers resumed the search. The second morning smoke was observed in the distance. Due to the cold weather, it was thought Miller could have built a fire and this needed to be checked. FBI Agents Joe Servel and Ron Perkerson were assigned this task.

Joe Servel and Ron Perkerson were walking up the

mountainside and all at once they heard a voice telling them to stop. They looked up and thirty or forty feet away was Miller. He was crouched down with the Sheriff’s .357 Magnum in his hand, aimed at them. And Servel immediately said for him to drop his weapon and Miller opened fire. Fortunately, he did not hit either Servel or Perkerson, and Servel returned the fire with a shotgun. Perkerson also fired.

And Miller came rolling down the hill with approximately

thirteen bullet wounds in his chest from the double-o buckshot from the shotgun. He was dead. When they got to him, he was dead. The authorities in Idaho had a Grand Jury hearing which found the death of Miller as justifiable homicide.


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Campbell: Bill and I have been reminiscing about the various aspects of our career when we got criticized for things that were unnecessary, but we don’t want to discuss them right now.

One of the most famous cases in the Bureau was the Barbara

Mackle kidnapping case and Bill had some involvement with that and he’d like to discuss that case next. Bill?

Sullivan: In December of 1968, Barbara Mackle was the daughter of a

wealthy developer. Mr. Mackle had developed Marco Island in Florida. Barbara was attending the Emory University in the Atlanta area. She became ill with flu; her mother came to the Atlanta area and they were in a motel and Barbara was kidnapped; taken out of the motel. Her mother was tied up in the motel and Barbara was removed by … turned out to be Gary Crist … C-r-i-s-t … and Ruth Schier … S-c-h-i-e-r.

Campbell: What was the year again? Sullivan: This was December 1968. Campbell: You were in Tampa then? You were ASAC? Sullivan: I was ASAC in Tampa at the time. Crist and Schier, through a subterfuge, had gained entrance to

the motel room. The kidnapper then demanded a ransom of five hundred thousand dollars. This was done in south Florida in the Marco Island area. The first payoff was made, but a private citizen had called the local police because it was in the evening and she didn’t know what was going on. She called the local police, and the local police who were nearby showed up, uniformed police, and Crist ran.

He dropped the five hundred thousand dollars, which was in

a leather case. In running away, he ran across some fences and tore his scrotum so severely that he had to go in to a hospital and get sewed up. Of course, the hospital, at that time, didn’t know who he was.


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Sullivan: Mr. Mackle went on television … pleaded with the kidnapper to come back again because he explained that the police had interrupted this due to the lady making a prowler call. So a second payoff was made and at this time, five hundred thousand dollars was delivered again to Crist. He took it …

Campbell: Was that delivered by FBI Agents? Sullivan: No. It was delivered by Billy Vessels, who was a former

Oklahoma football star who was working for Mr. Mackle at the time.

Campbell: Okay. Sullivan: And after he received the money, he called the Atlanta FBI

Office and told them that Barbara was located, generally, in the woods, near a trash dump and gave the general area. Agents and local authorities went out to that area and started searching. They were having a very difficult time. They couldn’t find her. And finally a couple of Agents were talking and they felt a vibration in the ground. They started looking around and they started digging up and they found a hose running into a box. And they dug up the box and Barbara Mackle was in the box. She was still alive.

She had been in that box for approximately 84 hours. He had

run a hose with air into the box which caused her to survive. He had also, apparently, put some kind of a drug in her water that may have caused her to sleep quite a bit. But anyway, she was rescued.

Campbell: I remember discussing this case with Brian Hollstein, who is

the Director of the Oral History Program, and he mentioned Rex Schroeder. Was he involved?

Sullivan: Rex Schroeder was in charge. Rex Schroeder was the

Inspector sent from Washington to head up the investigation. Campbell: Who discovered her? Was it Schroeder?


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Sullivan: No. No. No. It was Atlanta FBI Agents and local authorities. Rex Schroeder, about this time, was in Miami covering the payoffs down there. And Joe Santoianna, SAC Tampa, and I were out on the golf course up in Tampa. We received a call from Miami FBI that Crist had been identified taking a boat from the East Coast of Florida through the Inland Waterways and he’d be coming out into the Gulf Coast in the Tampa territory. Santoianna, myself, Bob Buresh, and Lou Hudson got on a Coast Guard helicopter and were heading down the coast. And down near Hog Island, which was around Charlotte, Florida,

We spotted the boat coming up the coast and the boat spotted

us and immediately turned to the beach. He beached the boat; left the boat, and went into the swamps there. We were able to land, the four of us, and started looking for him. But this was so swampy. Many Agents and local authorities came in. The local authorities were bringing their dogs in, but it was real swampy; real wet, and very, very difficult to cover.

I had been in the South Pacific in World War II and it

reminded me of the swamps, the jungles there. Just like that. : And we had to stay in very close contact. So we worked all

afternoon until darkness and we decided that we’d have to call off the search at night time but we would leave some Agents and some local officers out in the swamps there during the night, just in case he might show up. And sure enough, around midnight, he walked into the custody of two Deputy Sheriffs who were there.

Earlier we had checked the boat and we found over four

hundred ninety thousand dollars of the random money that he had left in a bag in the boat. So we had Crist. He was in a very, very bad condition. We took him into the Fort Meyers Resident Agency. He passed out. We had to take him, then, to the hospital.

FBI Headquarters said get fingerprints and we said we have a

fingerprint man here who says that it’s impossible to get fingerprints because his hands are so wet and he’s been in the mud. But we have those stitches in his scrotum. Will you accept that temporarily? (laughing)?


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Campbell: (Laughing) Sullivan: And they did. They said, “Okay. That’s good enough.”

(Laughing) Campbell: (Laughing) Sullivan: So we caught him. He, of course, eventually was prosecuted

and sentenced to prison. His girlfriend, Ruth Schier, became separated after the first payoff. She ended up, about a year later, when she was fingerprinted for a job out in Oklahoma, I think it was. She was caught then and served some time but eventually she was sent back to Honduras, where she was from. By the way, on Crist, after he got out of prison, he went to some medical school down in Grenada, or somewhere like that, and got a medical degree.

Not too long ago, he was in Indianapolis trying to get a

license to practice here in the United States. He got involved in drugs and, according to Rex Schroeder, he’s in prison now because of being involved in drugs.

Campbell: This is Larry Campbell again. I remember that case because

there was a book out on it, which I used to have. I think it was called Eighty Hours …

Sullivan: 84 Hours ‘Til Dawn, I think. Campbell: I think I gave it away to a thrift shop or something. But I

remember reading it a long time ago. It seems to me they put Ruth Schier on the Top Ten list, too, or something.

Because I had it somewhere in my FBI collection of memorabilia here in the garage … I have the IO photograph of her. And I think she was like one of the first women that they ever put on the Top Ten list, or something. I hope I’m not misstating that.

I remember the recent article in the paper about Crist trying

to get a medical license and then they brought up the Mackle kidnapping which, more or less, ended any job prospects, but I was unaware of him with the drug issue.


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Campbell: Did you ever have any interesting conversations with Rex Schroeder, either before or during, or after the case which you’d like to talk about?

Sullivan: Rex really caused me to get sent back to the Bureau as an

Inspector because we’d done, I think, a fabulous job in locating this fella, Crist … there in the swamps and recovering the money. Rex and I, we’ve been good friends and we’ve discussed it. This just turned out very well … very, very fortunate to find Barbara in the box, still alive. In fact, when I went up to Atlanta to testify, I was amazed what a good physical condition she was. And she had not suffered mentally at all, either. To go through an experience like that; I just can’t believe …

Campbell: Did you get a chance to talk, to interview her, or be present at

the interview? Sullivan: No, I did not. I did not. The Atlanta Office would have

handled that. See, she was recovered up in the Atlanta. I just got to talk to her briefly when we went up there for trial.

Campbell: A very fortunate young lady to have survived that. Okay. We took a little break here for a cup of coffee; and

we’ve been talking, and Bill mentioned that after he was the ASAC in Butte, he spent some time in New Haven which he believes that that’s where he met Brian Hollstein, who is the coordinator of this Oral History Program.

Anyway Bill, why don’t you talk about a personal situation

involving your daughter’s hearing. Why don’t you tell us about that?

Sullivan: When we were in Butte in 1966, the doctors determined that

my daughter, Martha, had a hearing problem that would have to be corrected by a specialist. The FBI submitted a memorandum to the Director and told the Director of her condition.


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Sullivan: When there was an opening for an ASAC in one of the larger offices, that I would be transferred so that her problem could be corrected. Mr. Hoover wrote on the memorandum, “Transfer him now.” So that meant that I got transferred as a Supervisor to New Haven because they had an opening there for a Supervisor. And they also had a doctor who was a specialist in Martha’s problem. We went to New Haven.

At that time, Charlie Weeks was the Agent in Charge and, I

believe, that Brian Hollstein was a first office Agent in the New Haven Office. But anyway, my daughter’s problem was corrected and, in 1967, I believe, I was transferred as ASAC to Tampa, Florida.

Campbell: Okay. Another interesting case that Bill was involved in was

when he was the SAC in St. Louis and there was an airplane hijacking, sometime in 1972. We’re going to talk about that.

Sullivan: In June 1972, an American Airlines 727 jetliner landed in St.

Louis on a very, very hot afternoon, at which time the pilot advised that the plane was being hijacked and the hijacker had a submachine gun and was demanding five hundred thousand dollars.

The airline got the five hundred thousand dollars through the

bank and they had it at the airport within a couple of hours. But we were negotiating with the hijacker to get the passengers off the plane. About 7:00 pm, suddenly a Cadillac convertible appeared on the runway and the driver ran his Cadillac head-on into the aircraft that was being hijacked. This disabled the aircraft.

It meant that the hijacker and the plane could not take off.

American Airlines ordered another plane to be brought in from Chicago and it took several hours to get that plane there and the passengers had to remain on the plane. And late in the night, sometime after midnight, the plane arrived and we arranged for the passengers to get off.


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Sullivan: The hijacker got off but he also surrounded himself with the pilot, the co-pilot, stewardesses, and other aircraft company employees so that he could get off the plane and he kept his submachine gun on these employees. There was no attempt made to stop him because it would have endangered the lives of all of these employees.

They got on the second plane. It was the type of aircraft that

the stairway dropped down in the back. After they took off, the hijacker was exchanging messages with the pilot. He would write notes and have the stewardess deliver them to the pilot. Somewhere over Peru, Indiana, around three o’clock in the morning, he bailed out of the aircraft with the five hundred thousand dollars in the bag. We, of course, did a search in that area; were unable to find him after the Indianapolis Office covered it. Two or three days later, a farmer found the five hundred thousand dollars in the bag and turned it over to the FBI and to the local authorities.

An informant in the Detroit Office told us who the hijackers

were. One hijacker and one who had picked him up, apparently, in Indiana. And, as a result of the paper, scraps of paper recovered by FBI Agents when they searched the plane in Chicago, they came up with fingerprints. The FBI Identification Division identified fingerprints on these papers as being identical with the hijacker. The hijacker turned out to be Walter John Petlikowsky … P-e-t-l-i-k-o-w-s-k-y. And he was assisted by Martin Joseph McNally … M-c-N-a-l-l-y.

As a result of the informant, Petlikowsky was arrested in

Detroit and, eventually, McNally was arrested and they both did time in the Federal penitentiary.

Campbell: I had two questions. One was about the Cadillac. Who …

who was driving the Cadillac? Was that just an accident or somebody …?

Sullivan: A drunk. The driver of the Cadillac had been listening on the

radio and he decided to stop this plane from taking off, so that’s why he ran it in. He was severely injured; had to be taken to the hospital and eventually was charged with the Federal violation of involving the aircraft. And he absolutely demolished his Cadillac.


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Campbell: When you mention Peru, Indiana, you struck a chord with me because at that particular time I was a Special Agent in the Chicago Division, and when that hijacking went down they sent a bunch of us. He bailed out by parachute as I remember.

Sullivan: Yeah. Campbell: Over a bunch of farm fields, and I was one of those Agents

who was chomping through the bushes, trying to find this hijacker. I think it ruined one of my weekends. But it was kind of exciting because it was a front page story. And I vaguely remember that the guy after he landed, apparently he lost … these guys plan these things and then they jump out of the airplane. You said a farmer found the money. But I also heard a story that he was hitchhiking along the road trying … after, you know, he got rid of all his whatever. And he had no way to get … so he just had his thumb out hitchhiking and a local Sheriff was driving by and the he picked this guy up and took him into town. Not realizing that he was the hijacker. I don’t know if you ever heard that story.

Sullivan: I had not heard it. Campbell: And it was only after he had dropped the guy off that people

… I guess maybe the local Sheriff, or something, maybe wasn’t aware of what was going on from another county or something. This guy, apparently, was glib enough to convince the guy that his car had broken down and he needed a lift into town. Then he got into town and then the guy got away and, like you say, he was eventually arrested. But it was a very red-faced Sheriff when he found out that the guy he’d picked up was the hijacker that all of us were looking for. Amazing how these cases kind of … sometimes that’s what’s interesting about doing these interviews is how they dovetail into situations like that.

Another case, and probably the one that has the most interest

to me because, you know, it was just a big deal. I was in Chicago at the time working SDS Weathermen Fugitives, it was the Symbionese Liberation Army case. Do you have it spelled out there or something? I’ll let you spell it out. We always referred to as the SLA.


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Campbell: Bill, at that time, was the ADIC, Assistant Director in Charge in Los Angeles, effective like January 1974. Why don’t you take it from there?

Sullivan: The Symbionese - S-y-m-b-i-o-n-e-s-e - Liberation Army

was formed in 1972 out of the Black Cultural Association at the California Medical Facility at Vacaville, California. This facility was used for psychiatric evaluation and treatment of the California Department of Correction inmates. Outside tutors were brought to the medical facility in March 1972 to conduct the Wednesday classes and Friday night cultural meetings. The Black Cultural Association was for the purpose of helping inmates with their lives once they were out of prison. There was a strong prison reform movement led by the Venceremos …

Campbell: That’s the Venceremos Brigade. Sullivan: Organization and the Revolutionary Union, which advocated

attacks on the establishment. Campbell: I remember because that fitted in with our SDS Weathermen

investigations out of Chicago because we thought the fugitives might be hanging with some of them. Venceremos, I believe, mean like ‘we shall conquer’ or something like that. I think that’s what Venceremos meant. The Brigade and Revolutionary Union or, what we refer to as the RU, they were tied in together. Okay. Go ahead.

Sullivan: I might add that Symbionese means the partnership of

dissimilar groups for their mutual benefit. There were a number of people from University of California

at Berkley who would visit the prison at Vacaville and that’s where they became acquainted with some of the inmates. One, in particular, was Donald DeFreeze. DeFreeze had quite a criminal background which started when he was about fourteen years of age. He was arrested about seventeen times for felonies. He was convicted in 1972 for a robbery in Los Angeles and he had been sent to Vacaville for evaluation. That’s where he became involved with the Black Cultural Association.


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Sullivan: DeFreeze ran for leadership of the Black Cultural Association, was defeated, and then he and some others established the Symbionese Liberation Army.

In November of 1973, the SLA announced the brutal

assassination of the Oakland, California, School Superintendent Marcus Foster and wounding an assistant. Investigation determined that the SLA was responsible for this, or members of the SLA. Russell Little and Joseph Remiro were arrested January 10, 1974, after a traffic stop and shoot out with the Concord, California, Police. Ballistic tests of guns in possession of Little and Remiro revealed one of the guns had been used in the murder of Marcus Foster.

On February 4, 1974, the SLA claimed responsibility for

kidnapping Patricia Campbell Hearst. Campbell: When was that? Sullivan: February 4, 1974. Hearst, at that time, was living with

Steven Weed and she was a student at the University of California at Berkeley. The SLA demanded ransom be in the form of food packages to be given to millions of people in California, particularly welfare recipients, including parolees. After bargaining for several weeks through tape recorded messages from Patty Hearst to her father, a six million dollar ransom demand was agreed upon. Food valued at two million dollars was to be distributed immediately and additional food valued at four million dollars was to be distributed later.

Two point three million dollars in food was distributed by the

Hearst family and suddenly a new tape was received. Patty Hearst declared quote “I have been given the chance of being released in the safe area, or joining the forces of the Symbionese Liberation Army, and fighting for my freedom and the freedom of all oppressed peoples. I have decided to stay and fight.”


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Sullivan: On April 15th, 1974, the SLA executed a well-planned bank robbery of the Hibernia Bank in San Francisco. Patty Hearst, armed with a .30 caliber carbine, was identified as one of the suspects. Other SLA members identified were Donald DeFreeze, Nancy Ling Perry, Patricia Soltysik, and Camilla Hall. The robbery netted $10,960. Two innocent bystanders were wounded by a burst of automatic weapon fired from Donald DeFreeze.

From evidence developed in San Francisco and Los Angeles,

it was apparent that the SLA had formed a well-organized and disciplined terrorist group. Joseph Remiro supervised combat training and armament. He regularly trained SLA members in shooting techniques at an Oakland pistol range. He also modified carbines to operate fully automatic. The carbines were able to fire over a thousand rounds per minute.

The SLA surfaced in the Los Angeles area on May 16, 1974.

William and Emily Harris entered Mel’s Sporting Good Store in Englewood, California. Now they shopped for several items of clothing and a store employee noticed William Harris place a pair of socks under his coat. The employee suspected he was shoplifting, armed himself with a revolver and handcuffs.

After the couple paid thirty-one dollars for several items they

had purchased, the employee followed the Harris’ outside and ordered him to return inside. Harris refused, became violent, and started fighting. Both fell to the ground and Emily Harris jumped on the back of the employee. William Harris withdrew a revolver, which was twisted from him, and employees got one handcuff on Harris’ wrist. Sounds of gunfire came from across the street and they saw a woman firing an automatic weapon from a vehicle. The Harris’s ran to the white Volkswagen and it sped away. The employee got in his car and followed for a short distance when the Volkswagen stopped at the curb.

Campbell: They said they needed the car and then what happens then?


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Sullivan: They drove this car several blocks and it stalled. It quit on them. William Harris and Emily Harris got out of the car; they spotted a man standing in front of his house along with his kid. They had weapons and they went over and told him that they were with the SLA and they needed his car. He turned the keys over and, of course, they drove away.

FBI Agents searched the original Volkswagen that they had

abandoned. They found some clothing and in the clothing they found a parking ticket which had been issued on May 13, 1974, at 835 West 84th Street in Los Angeles.

I might say that witnesses at the Englewood shooting

positively identified Bill and Emily Harris as the couple who had come into the store there. They were unable to identify who was firing the automatic weapon from the automobile but, undoubtedly, it was Patty Hearst, as investigation will later show.

With this parking ticket located, then the Agents and the local

police went over to this area and they started an investigation of the area. They found a number of people who advised them that there had been people living at the area; that they were driving two vehicles. They described the vehicles, but probably they were no longer living there. Let’s see.

On the morning of May 17, 1974, an FBI SWAT Team and

an LAPD SWAT Team hit the house at 833 West 84th Street. After firing tear gas into the house, the house was searched. No one was found in the house. But, in the house was found three suitcases containing gas masks, women’s wigs and handbags, SLA literature, shotgun ammunition, a shortwave radio, and medical supplies.

Witnesses described the two vehicles or vans. One is red and

white and the other a faded blue with curtains in the windows and damage to the left front. Descriptions of these automobiles was put out to local law enforcement and two of the officers who had been in on the investigation earlier that morning happened to spot the above vehicles parked in the rear of 1451 East 53rd Street.


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Sullivan: Immediately an investigation began in this area. Several anonymous telephone calls were received and placed the suspects at 1466 East 54th Street, Los Angeles. Considerable neighborhood investigation determined that the suspects were at this address.

At 5:44 pm, two LA Police Department SWAT Teams,

composed of eight officers and a squad leader, were on either side of the house and the occupants of the house were ordered, over the bull horn, to come out with their hands up immediately and they would not be harmed. These announcements continued for approximately eight minutes.

When there was no response, tear gas was fired into the

house and immediately was answered with automatic weapon fire from inside the house. A child, approximately eight years of age, came walking out of the house. He was extremely scared and unable to speak. He was moved to safety and shortly thereafter, a Negro male came out of the house. He said there was a black lady in the house but he did not see any white women or guns. Eighteen announcements were made in eight minutes. With darkness approaching, that was why the tear gas was used and as soon as the second projectile went in, automatic weapon fire started.

Sporadic automatic weapon fire continued to emanate from

this house every … it stopped for 30 or 40 seconds and then start up again.

At 6:41 pm, the house was observed to be on fire and smoke

was very obvious. A black lady came out of the house at that time. It was broadcast to those remaining in the house that the house was on fire, they should come out.

At 6:45 pm, the rear portion of the roof caught on fire and

quickly spread to the rest of the house. At 6:47 pm, another broadcast was answered with automatic

weapon fire. At 6:50 pm, the house was totally engulfed in flames …

continued to receive automatic weapon fire from air vents in the foundation of the house.


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Sullivan: At 6:59 pm, the Squad Leader informed the fire department that hostile fire had ceased. The fires were extinguished by 7:30 pm.

Two witnesses in the house, prior to the fire, described a

white female walking around with bottles filled with gasoline, similar to a Molotov cocktail, and a two-gallon gasoline metal can was found with a perforation in the side. LAPD Bomb Squad found two pipe bombs, two blasting caps, and a homemade explosive device in the search. Nineteen weapons were recovered, including four carbines, fully automatic; two rifles, six handguns, seven shotguns.

Five bodies were recovered on May the 17th: Nancy Ling Perry, age 26, Caucasian. Death resulted from

gunshot wounds to the back; one severing the spinal cord, and the other the right lung.

Angela Atwood, Caucasian, early 20s. Death resulted from

smoke inhalation and burns. William Wolfe, Caucasian male, early 20s. Death resulted

from smoke inhalation and burns. Donald DeFreeze, Negro male, age 30. Death resulted from

self-inflicted gunshot wound to head. Bullet entered right temple and exited left temple area.

Patricia Soltysik, female, Caucasian, age 24. Death resulted

from a combination of smoke inhalation, burns, and multiple gunshot wounds.

On May the 19th, the body of Camilla Hall, female,

Caucasian, age 29, was recovered. She received a gunshot in the center of forehead, which caused instantaneous death.

Six decedents wore gas masks up until time of death,

according to tests.


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Campbell: Okay, Bill. I just want to backtrack a little bit as to your particular, how you found out about the whole situation initially. Whether you learned about it when you arrived in the office and then there was also some joint jurisdiction here with the LAPD SWAT Team and the FBI SWAT Team, although it seems like it’s primarily an LAPD operation. And then you can kind of talk about how that evolved. It’s also interesting to note that this thing occurred on May 17th, which was your EOD anniversary date in the Bureau, about 26 years or so, I guess?

So why don’t you start on, like how you woke up that day;

whether you went in the office and heard about it and went right to the scene, and so forth.

Sullivan: Well, I had been out with the FBI Agents at the first house

that we shook down on the morning of May 17th, and I went back in after that turned out to be unsuccessful. Elmer Lindberg, the SAC in charge of the Criminal Division, was still out on the scene. I had gone back to the office, I assume, which was located in West LA. Anyhow, I was notified of the location of the cars and I immediately went to that area to be with the FBI Agents.

I’d like to point out that during the shooting by the LAPD

SWAT Teams, they ran short of ammunition and tear gas. The FBI SWAT Team, composed of seven Agents and a Leader, also an Agent, they were brought in and they fired some tear gas into the building and also returned the fire coming from the house. None of the Agents or the Police Officers were hurt in this shootout; and no private citizens were injured in it, which is amazing from all the rounds that were fired.

LAPD did a terrific job of keeping the people away from this

area. They used something like 204 uniformed police officers, as I recall, to just keep the crowd away.

Campbell: Okay. I guess it was Kelley was the Director then, was it? Sullivan: Yes. Campbell: Were you required to keep him apprised as these events were

ongoing?


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Sullivan: I received a call from Mr. Kelley while I was on the scene. I had to go find a public telephone to call him. (chuckling) He was in Kansas City as it was determined. I went through the office and they located him in Kansas City. And he asked me, “Is Patty in the house?” He was concerned about Patty Hearst. And I told him, I said, “We’ve had two witnesses who have come out of the house. One is a child; the other is black, and they cannot identify her. So I don’t know whether she’s in the house or not.” As it turned out, she was not in the house. She was with Bill and Emily Harris.

Campbell: Okay. Bill and I were talking about some of the decedents

and it was Camilla Hall that was shot with right in the center of the forehead, execution style. I just want to get some comments from Bill on what he thought might have happened and also his opinion of DeFreeze, as an individual.

Sullivan: Well, it would appear to me that Camilla Hall may have

wanted to give herself up or possibly she wanted to be shot. But DeFreeze was a very vicious, sadistic individual, who had fired several times before this incident. He had been involved in a shooting at a bank in Los Angeles when he tried to cash a stolen cashier’s check. He had been involved in a shooting with a security guard and the police caught him there. And he had also been involved in a shooting up in Baltimore or New Jersey or somewhere back East, before he came to California. So he was a very, very … I think he was mentally unstable. No doubt about it.

Campbell: How did he ever get out of Vacaville? Sullivan: He was transferred to Soledad Prison and he was out on a

work detail and he just walked away, and he headed to San Francisco.

Campbell: And then you mentioned earlier about Mr. and Mrs. Harris,

who were very well-educated people. And then, oh yeah, I was asking you also about how you had kept the Bureau notified. About the phone call to Kelley; did we talk about that?

Sullivan: No.


20

Campbell: Oh. Okay. Why don’t you talk about how you kept the Bureau informed?

Sullivan: We already talked about that. Campbell: Did we talk about it already? Okay. And then you

mentioned that about a month, a couple days later, they were … Patty Hearst and the Harris’ were apprehended in San Francisco.

Sullivan: No. A year later. Campbell: A year later? Sullivan: A year. Bill and Emily Harris and Patty Hearst, and First

Name Unknown Yoshimura … Campbell: Wendy … Wendy. Sullivan: Wendy Yoshimura were arrested by FBI Agents in San

Francisco area, September 18, 1975. So they stayed free for over … well over a year, after this incident.

Campbell: Again, what’s so fascinating about doing these interviews is

how the case you worked it and here I am back in Chicago working the Weathermen case, looking for these fugitives. And, I remember vividly the day that they arrested her, Patty. And I believe that Case Agent was Tom …

Sullivan: Paden. Campbell: Paden. I met him at one of our … Sullivan: I talked to him the other day. Campbell: Oh, you did. Okay. Did you talk about this? Sullivan: Talked about this, yeah. Campbell: Let’s talk about that.


21

Sullivan: Well, Tom Paden, an Agent in the San Francisco Office at the time, tells me the exact dates this arrest occurred. He was the Case Agent; one of the Agents that was involved in the arrest of these people, of the Harrises and Hearst, and Yoshimura.

Campbell: Did he go into any detail about how? I think there was a

commune, I believe, that was on Pine Street in San Francisco, where they traced them to, either through phone calls or source information. And, again, I ran into Tom at one of our functions, Society functions. He was introduced as the, quote “the man that apprehended Patty Hearst.” Did he tell you details about how he actually found her?

Sullivan: No, he didn’t. There was just a newspaper article, I guess,

that said that he had crept up the stairways and looked through a window and threatened to shoot her if she didn’t come out, as I understand it. He didn’t go into any of the details.

Campbell: Yeah. I think as I remember it, and again this is all hearsay

… or recall. But he was searching the house, I believe, and I think he opened the closet and she was hiding in the closet behind a bunch of hanging clothes; and then ordered her to come out or he was going to shoot her, or something like that. And then she came out and that’s how … you know, she came out very fearfully. And that’s how the actual thing went down.

I think he’s still working. He worked as an investigator for

the San Francisco PD. He’s in his 80s now. And I think, he finally just went in to retirement.

Sullivan: I talked to him the other day. Campbell: We were discussing some of the aftermath of this and the role

of Patty Hearst in this case. Bill had some additional information concerning some of her activities while she was with the SLA.


22

Sullivan: Patty Hearst seemed to remain with Bill and Emily Harris. And they apparently got separated from the other SLA members, which was why they were not at the shootout. They didn’t hesitate, after the shooting there in Englewood at Mel’s Sporting Goods Store, they didn’t hesitate to kidnap and take cars of individuals.

As an example, on May 16th, I believe it was, they

kidnapped Thomas Matthews, age 18. He was the owner of a 1969 van which had a ‘For Sale’ sign on it. And they kidnapped him, put him in the car, and made him ride around with them all night long, or they spent the night in the car. And at about 6:30 in the morning, they released him. Before they released him, Patty Hearst and Emily Harris went out as hitchhikers and stopped a fellow by the name of Tom Sutter, who was driving a Lincoln automobile, and they held him up; brought him over to where the Matthews car was and turned Thomas Matthews loose and took off in the Lincoln, and held on to it for several hours. So this is just an example of how Patty Hearst cooperated with the Harris’ and committed additional crimes right along with the Harrises.

Campbell: And yet, as I recall, she got off with a relatively short

sentence. Any comments on that? Sullivan: If it had not been Patty Hearst, I think she’d still be in prison. Campbell: I’d like to talk about just some personal stuff about you Bill.

You said you retired in July, around the 5th of July of … Sullivan: Seventy-five. Campbell: Seventy-five. And because you were 55. Why don’t you tell

us a little bit about what you did after you left the Bureau? Sullivan: I was in charge of the Liquor Control Commission for the

State of California for approximately six months. This would have meant a move up to Sacramento and I decided I didn’t want to make that move. My daughter, Martha, was a senior in high school at that time and she’d been moved from school to school several times and so I just did not want to make that move.


23

Sullivan: And I had an opportunity to go with Hughes Aircraft Company as the Director of Corporate Security. And I met with Mr. Hyland and he offered me the position and I accepted and it turned out to be a real good company to work for.

The previous Director of Corporate Security was a former

FBI Agent. He had not retired, but he had been with Hughes for a number of years and I knew him quite well. So, that was really, the entré to Hughes. But I spent ten years with Hughes Aircraft Company and they’re a great company to work for.

I was amazed at the responsibility they gave to their lower

level employees. Being in the FBI, I was used to central control of everything. But, I talked to Mr. Hyland about this and he said well they believe that if you give people responsibility and the money to do the job, they had outstanding results at Hughes, with that. He said if they don’t do the job we get someone who will do the job. It’s as simple as that.

I retired from there in 1985. Campbell: Okay. So you left there in ’85 and what happened after that? Sullivan: I moved out to the golf courses. In July of ’85, we moved

down to Poway, where we still live. Mary passed away May 11th, 2006.

Mary was very, very helpful throughout my FBI career. She

never, never got upset except one time. When I was in St. Louis, I got transferred to Philadelphia. When I was in Philadelphia, I had only been in Philadelphia a short time, and I got sent on a Special down to Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Mary and Martha were still in St. Louis and I told the FBI that I had to move my family and they said, “Well, we’ll give you time off.” When the time came, about the first of November …

Campbell: This is 1970? Sullivan: Let’s see, I’m at Philadelphia … this is ’72, I guess.


24

Campbell: Seventy-two? Sullivan: Seventy-two. I called back to the Bureau; told them I had to

move my family from St. Louis to Philadelphia and Pat Gray, Mr. Gray was the Director at that time. And he told them ‘no I could not leave down there’. So I called Mary and she said, “I want to talk to the Director.” (Laughing)

Campbell: (Laughing) Sullivan: That’s the (laughing) only time that she ever quiveled. And I

called back to Mark Felt, in the FBI, and I said, “Mary wants to talk to the Director.” He said, “Give me five minutes.” He called back in about five minutes and said, “Okay, we’ll give you a week off.” So I went to St. Louis on a Sunday; moved Mary and Martha to Philadelphia; left them in a motel in Philadelphia the following Sunday, and went back to Baton Rouge.

Mary had to move into the house by herself, except she said

two Agents from the Office came out and she said it was the best move she ever had. (Chuckling) Of course, she had these Agents there that could hook up the washer and the dryer and that sort of thing. That’s the only time she ever quiveled.

Campbell: Mary never called Hoover when he was Director, right? Sullivan: No. No. (Laughing) Campbell: Did you have any personal meetings with Hoover during his

career? Maybe you could talk about some of those. Sullivan: I had six meetings with Mr. Hoover … one bad, five good

ones. (Laughing) One bad was when I had a problem with a New Agents Class. And the other five were very good. You didn’t have to worry about talking to Mr. Hoover; he did all of the talking when you went in. You just had to go in and make sure that you were dressed properly and you met his standards. But otherwise, he did all of the talking. You didn’t have to say a word.


25

Sullivan: As long as your statistics were up. I always went in to see him when I was going out as an ASAC or SAC coming in to In-Service. As an SAC, you’d have to go in and see him and you’d better be damn sure your statistics were up when you went in.

Campbell: ‘Cause he had them right in front of him on his desk there,

right? Sullivan: Yes, he did. Campbell: Again, I only had one meeting with Mr. Hoover

approximately two months before he died. And I went in, primarily, to thank him for giving me a Hardship Transfer to San Diego for 90 days when my dad died and I could help my mother out with the estate. And then I wanted to tell him about how expert I was with the Weathermen investigation and how I would really behoove the best interests of the Bureau that I could work very much more effectively on the West Coast. You know, rather than from the cold winters of Chicago. And again, I spent 45 minutes with him and I believe he talked for about 40 minutes. And I got, finally, at the end, he asked me did I need anything. And I kind of made my pitch. But it was without avail. I was glad I went in to see him because he passed away about two months later.

I just want to talk a little bit [about] some other personal

issues. You mentioned you had a little problem with that New Agents Class when you were a Counselor. Do you want to talk about that now or not?

Sullivan: As all Agents know, when you go through a New Agents

School, you have in those days, with Mr. Hoover, you had to go in and see him sometime during your training. The whole class did. When I was Counselor for a New Agents Class, we had 48 in the class and we had to make that speed run through to see him, shake hands. You better be sure that your hands weren’t sweaty and that sort of thing.


26

Sullivan: Anyway, we made the speed run through to see him the last week of my Agents Class. Mr. Hoover had just returned from California and they always said when he returned from his trip to California, he shook things up by taking some kind of action and he made a comment. They weren’t certain what he said, whether it was several or seven of the Agents, did not make a good personal appearance. Well, what does that mean? Anyway, I ended up getting a Letter of Censure for not bringing this to his attention. And that’s the only bad experience that I had.

I’d like to also mention that in the case of the killing of the

fellow over in Idaho. I was the ASAC in the office at the time. Bob Evans, the SAC, was up in northern Montana at the time. So I had to call FBI Headquarters and tell them about the killing of this individual.

Campbell: Is this Wayne Virgil Miller? Sullivan: Right. And when I called back to tell them that … they knew

that we had the kidnapping, so I wanted to talk to Mr. Rosen. Mr. Rosen was in charge of the Criminal Division at the time

and then they got Mr. Belmont, who was about the Number Three man in the FBI, at that time. And Jim Gale was an Assistant Director and Bob Wick was the man from Crime Records. I explained to them about the shooting and what had happened. And this fellow from Crime Records, he said, “Bill, don’t prepare any press release. Just call the press and tell them exactly the way you told us.” And all at once, Jim Gale interrupted and he said, “How do you know he didn’t commit suicide?” And that stunned me. I sat there for a few seconds and all at once Mr. Belmont spoke, “That’s a stupid damn question! He has explained to you that the man’s got a whole bunch of holes in his chest; he couldn’t commit suicide.” (laughing)

Campbell: (Laughing) Sullivan: And, I’ve always thanked Mr. Belmont for getting me off the

hook there, because I was absolutely stunned with that question.


27

Campbell: You mentioned earlier that, after you finished at Hughes, you retired to the golf course. And I can personally witness having played with you and against you in several team matches, that you were still a pretty good golfer. In fact, I think, as I remember one of the fellows that played against you in the last match … you played for Stoneridge Country Club, and I’m with the Country Club of Rancho Bernardo … he said that guy is the toughest ten handicap I’ve ever played, you know. So he was very complimentary of your golfing skill.

Let’s see. Do you want to talk about golf at all or anything? Sullivan: Well, when you’re 87 years of age, you’re golfing game is

slipping, that’s for sure (laughing). But I still enjoy playing. I get out about three or four days a week and my handicap is now up about 18. Once in awhile I shoot a good score around the low 80s but not very often anymore.

Campbell: And I’m 20 years younger, at 67, and my game is, likewise,

slipping already and I’m presently playing to about a 15 or 16. So, we’d probably have a pretty good match.

One thing I think it would be interesting to note, you have …

one of your sons is the founder, is it of Outback Steakhouse. Maybe, let’s talk a little bit about his accomplishments.

Sullivan: My son, Chris, he’s a graduate of the University of

Kentucky; but while he was at school, he had to work his way through school. If you’re an FBI Agent back in those days, you weren’t making too much money. Anyway, he took to working around restaurants and bars and when he graduated from school, he went into a training program with Steak and Ale, at the time. And he got along extremely well with Steak and Ale. Then he was in charge, I believe, of all their restaurants west of the Mississippi at one time. That was back in the ‘70s, and then he and his partner got with Norman Brinker. That was their mentor.


28

Sullivan: And eventually they started Outback Steakhouse in Tampa, Florida, in 1988. They had already had some success with another small restaurant chain and they were bought out by the parent company. So, in 1988, they decided to open a steakhouse in Tampa. At that time, Crocodile Dundee was very, very popular and one of the wives said they ought to call it Outback, taking an Australian background, I guess.

Anyway, they started with one restaurant in Tampa and it got

along so well, they just kept opening restaurants. And, today, they’ve got over 800 Outback’s; over 100 Carrabba’s, and they’ve got some seafood places. They‘re on the Stock Exchange, but now they’re going to go private. They’re going to go private. Chris is involved in that and it’s worked out extremely well for him.

Campbell: And, based upon that, you never have to worry about your …

where your next meal is coming from ‘cause I understand anytime you walk in the Outback, you can get a meal there.

Sullivan: But I pay for all of them. Campbell: But he pays for all those meals, he said. Yeah. Sullivan: Stockholders would not like me eating free. Campbell: (Laughing) We don’t want to upset the stockholders. We have a little time left here on the tape, here, and I asked

Bill if he would, more or less, summarize his feelings and memories throughout his Bureau career.

Sullivan: I feel that I’m the luckiest guy in the world to have been able

to work in the FBI for 27 years, among a great group of people. I never had any problems with any of them. I’m sure some of them may have resented some of my supervision, but so be it.

I had great admiration for Mr. Hoover and I think that most

of our people were brought together by him and it was just a tremendous joy to work with such an outstanding organization.


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Campbell: Bill, how about a little background then, on where you went to school and that period.

Sullivan: I went to Pikeville Junior College. It was a two-year college

in Pikeville, Kentucky, graduated from there in 1939 and then I went to school down at Eastern Kentucky at Richmond, Kentucky. I was in school there when World War II was declared. I enlisted in December of 1941 in the Marine Corps. When I got out of the Marine Corps in January of 1946, my wife, Mary, was living in Johnson City, Tennessee, and we were expecting our first child. And so I went to Johnson City and I went to East Tennessee State University, and graduated from there in 1947.

Campbell: What was your major? Sullivan: General Sciences. Campbell: Okay. Okay, you mention your military career. Could you,

in the brief time we have left, could you talk about some of the operations you were involved in there?

Sullivan: I went overseas. I joined the 3rd Marine Division. We, the

whole Division, we got into Guadalcanal. All the organized resistance at Guadalcanal had ceased, but we used to get bombed almost every night so you had fox holes that you had to go into at nighttime because of the bombings that we had. But, then from Guadalcanal, we went to Bougainville; landed in Bougainville in November 1, 1943. And, at that time, we received quite a bit of resistance. I was in the third wave. You have one wave going in and five minutes later, ten minutes later, you have the second wave, and I was in the third wave going in. Fortunately, I was not hit on the landing. We did come under pretty heavy fire. In fact, I recall the Japanese planes coming over strafing the beach and our own planes following the Japanese. And I thought we were all going to get killed by our own planes, strafing the Japanese. But anyways, we were at Bougainville for about 60 days before we were relieved and went back to Guadalcanal.


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Sullivan: I was very fortunate. We lost … it wasn’t heavy losses, but I recall losing a young Lieutenant, Chief Warrant Officer, who was our Adjutant … people like that, that I knew quite well … we lost several of those people. And the problem with Bougainville was all the jungle that you had to participate in and fight against. It was really tough there.

Campbell: Okay, Bill. In the closing tape here, I just want to thank you

for coming by and it’s really been, as it always is, it’s always interesting for me to hear the stories and also dredges up some memories of my own. I want to thank you for coming by and for offering your insights on some of these cases, which will go into our Oral History collection. And, who knows, maybe your grandkids will be listening to them some day.

But thanks again and see you out on the golf course!

Documents

FBI Sullivan interview - National Law Enforcement … · He stopped to check him out to see ... We sent Agents - the SAC was Bob Evans ... FBI_Sullivan_interview