FIRinG Line - Digital Collections · ProfessorRalph McInerny ofthe University ofNotre Dame has written a blessedly slim ... Ralph, and I think properly so, the delay between the time

FIRING LINE is produced and directed by WARREN STEIBEL.

FATHER RICHARD MCBRIEN, RALPH MCINERNY

WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY, JR.

"LOOKING BACK ON VATICAN II"SUBJECT:

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This is a transcript ofFIRING LINE program #281611183, taped at HBO Studios inNew York City, September 18, 1998, and telecast later on public television stations.

Copyright 1998 FIRiNG LINE

Transcripts and videocassettes are available through Producers Incorporated for Television, 2700 Cypress Street, Columbia, SC29205 803/799-3449

MR. BUCKLEY: Almost 35 years ago Vatican II shut down and the CatholicChristian world was endowed, if that is the right word for it, with new conciliarstatements which all Catholic theologians accept as a part of Catholic doctrine. Thequestion, as ever, is in the details, by which I mean that there are dogged differences, ifnot in interpretation as to what was said, but on the bearing ofwhat was said on dutifulCatholics.

Professor Ralph McInerny of the University ofNotre Dame has written a blessedly slimbook called What Went Wrong With Vatican II: The Catholic Crisis Explained. Thegravamen of his concern is not, strictly speaking, on Vatican II as with the encyclicalreleased three years later which reasserted the traditional Catholic position opposing theuse of contraceptives. Professor McInerny is a learned scholar of the Middle Ages whoearned a master's degree from the University ofMinnesota and a doctorate from thePontifical Faculty ofPhilosophy at Laval University in Quebec. He has written--braceyourself--60 books, including popular mysteries.

To contribute to the discussion, we have the eminent Reverend Richard P. McBrien,who has several times appeared as our guest, most recently in connection with hislearned history of the popes. Father McBrien is former head of the department oftheology at Notre Dame, the author of 18 books, and a conspicuous theological liberal.

To bring us into the argument, Vatican II reiterated the authoritative structure of thehierarchy and the preeminence of the Pope. What happens when, as with the encyclicalHumanae Vitae, in which Pope Paul VI reiterated the ban on contraceptives, a wholebody of theologians dissent and millions of communicants ignore? Let's ask Mr.McInerny: Why is there ambiguity about the sovereignty of the Pope if we are dealingwith a question of faith and morals?

MR MCINERNY: Well, I think one has to understand the history that led up to that1968 encyclical. There were two commissions that had been appointed, first by JohnXXIII and then expanded and continued by Paul VI to study the question ofcontraceptives. This was a time when the estrogen pill had just appeared on the horizonand questions arose as to whether or not it was indeed an artificial contraceptive. Andrather than have the Fathers of the council take time on that question--although inGaudium et spes they have some remarkably clear things to say on marriage and itsobligation. He wanted this commission to study it and advise him. And they took a verylong time; it was three years after the close of council. And during that time the rumorswent out that they were advising the Pope that he could change church doctrine, notsimply--since we had no church doctrine on estrogen, but that the very question ofcontraception could be rethought and the position changed. And everyone expected thisto happen. I mean, it got out into the parishes and to the universities and so forth, andthe report actually was leaked to the National Catholic Reporter in Kansas City. So theexpectation was founded. It was not at that time a matter of being out of touch with the

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teaching of the church or in any way unreceptive to it, but this expectation was there.And then in July of '68, Humanae Vitae appeared. And against that immediatebackground I think one can understand the initial reaction of many. But--

MR. BUCKLEY: Well, you give a background by which the emotional resistance to itis understandable, but Father McBrien goes beyond that. My understanding is that youare persuaded by the reasoning of the initial majority who considered the question.However, since you were wrong that that was the way the Pope was going to go, to useour favorite word, has there been a docility in your attitude towards it?

FR. MCBRIEN: Docility is always there, even towards teachings that you might notagree with in full. Docility is simply an openness to be taught. But that doesn't meanyou accept something whole if you have reasons and conscience and intellectuallygrounded reasons to take a different point of view. Let me just make-- May I make justthree--

MR. BUCKLEY: Of course. Sure, sure.

FR. MCBRIEN: --quick points about the issue. Number one, there is a good article, Ithink, on Vatican II by Father Andrew Greeley in the September 11 issue of theCommonweal magazine. And he reminds us there that in 1963 the social science surveyshad already established that about half the Catholic population in America already wereveering away from the church's traditional teaching on birth control, which by the way,isn't all that old. John Noonan wrote a magisterial work on contraception, which showsthat it wasn't exactly a teaching that was always taught with great clarity and forcethrough the centuries. But then I'd like to make-- Even though I have great admirationfor the late Pope Paul VI, I think he made two big mistakes, and my colleague, ProfessorMcinerny, I think, touched upon one. First of all, I think he should have allowed thecouncil to discuss it, because by not discussing it, we didn't get a sense ofjust where thebishops of the church were on the issue, even apart from that narrowly scientific issuethat you raise very properly. I think if it had been discussed, the Pope and others in thechurch would have gotten a sense ofjust what in fact the bishops thought about it at thefirst cut, if you will. I think the second mistake he made was the delay in--and again, yourefer to it, Ralph, and I think properly so, the delay between the time the Birth ControlCommission submitted its report to him and the time that he issued the birth controlencyclical in July of 1968.

MR. BUCKLEY: Three years.

FR. MCBRIEN: Because the word was around, I mean, people expected it was goingto change.

MR. BUCKLEY: As you said, yes.

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FR. MCBRIEN: Yes, and I think that was a mistake. I mean, ifhe wanted to maintainthe traditional teaching, he should have, I think, moved in far more quickly and said, No,I've got this report, but this is what we are going to do.

MR. BUCKLEY: This is advice having to do with prudence, but there is a differencebetween you, as I understand it, as follows. Professor Mcinerny says, In Vatican II thereis a reiteration of hierarchy in the Catholic Church and that reiteration included thestatement that in matters having to do with faith and morals, the Pope is supremelyresponsible. You have most recently written an essay in which you say that somethingthat issued from Vatican IT is the sense of it, that all members of the Catholic Church arethemselves a part of the authority of the church. Now that is a very significantdifference, or have I missed something?

MR. MCINERNY: No, I think it's the case certainly that Vatican II reiterated thehierarchical nature of the church, but it also called attention to a number of othermeanings of the church. But with respect to this particular issue, faith and moralsgenerally, there has been a long history since '68 of people saying--theologians saying-that this is not a kind of teaching to which they have to give their assent, despite certainexplicit paragraphs in Lumen Gentium ofVatican II. But quite recently, just this July,the Holy Father in an apostolic letter addressed specifically this point. And the questionis, Can those who are entrusted with the mission of teaching Catholic theology teachpositions which are in conflict with the teaching of the church? Now here you can'tinvoke some sense of the church other than the hierarchical church because it is said theteaching function with respect to faith and morals is invested in the Holy Father and inthe bishops teaching in communion with him. And this is very explicitly stated andunfortunately because of a nonacceptance in 1989 of this requirement on the part oftheologians, canonical sanctions were added in July of this year.

MR. BUCKLEY: Have you got any problem with that summary, Father McBrien?

FR. MCBRIEN: No, no, actually Ralph kind of broadened out a point you made. Youreferred to the council saying that the Pope was supremely responsible. Actually itdidn't say that, because all the bishops are involved in the governance of the church,although the Pope has a very important place within that College ofBishops. He's thepresident of it and he is the successor ofPeter and all the rest.

MR. BUCKLEY: It said, "The Pope has full, supreme and universal power over thewhole church, a power which he can always exercise unended."

FR. MCBRIEN: Never apart from the College ofBishops. I mean, you're quoting,with all due respect to my friend--

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MR. BUCKLEY: The Pope.

FR. MCBRIEN: --you're quoting Ralph and we're talking about the Second--

MR. BUCKLEY: No, no, no, no, no.

FR. MCBRIEN: Is that Lumen Gentium 25?

MR. MCINERNY: 25.

FR. MCBRIEN: The famous 25. Yes. But you have to read--

MR. MCINERNY: Repeated in the Catechism.

FR. MCBRIEN: That's in Chapter 3 of Lumen Gentium, the constitution on thechurch. You have to see.it in the context of the whole chapter. What the council taughtwas that the governing structure of the universal church is a collegial governingstructure. So the Pope--yes, the Pope can act as the earthly head of the church, butnever apart from the council, never apart from the College ofBishops, and vice-versa.In fact, theologically there's one anomaly. There are really two supreme sources ofgoverning power in the Catholic Church. One, the Pope, acting as earthly head of thechurch under circumstances that are specified, and an ecumenical council. So you know,there's a certain amount of--

MR. BUCKLEY: By definition they can't be at loggerheads, can they?

FR. MCBRIEN: By definition they can't.

MR. BUCKLEY: Yes.

MR. MCINERNY: But they're both--

FR. MCBRIEN: And I don't know of instances where they have.

MR. MCINERNY: But they're both instances of the hierarchical church, of course.What an ecumenical council is, is a meeting of all the bishops of the church. And thedocuments that were promulgated by Paul VI, that's when they become part of churchteaching. So it seems to me this is a false kind of distinction that's being made. Thefact of the matter is the Pope can teach unhindered and it says that, that's what it means.

FR. MCBRIEN: Well he can teach in the ordinary Magisterium unhindered. He can saywhat he wants in an encyclical.

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MR. MCINERNY: But also we now read in--

FR. MCBRIEN: But not ifit's--not ifit's--

MR. MCINERNY: Ad Tuendam Fiedem that what he teaches in the ordinaryMagisterium is incumbent upon Catholics to believe. But look, it seems to me this is theproblem in the last 30 years. It's not a' matter of two individuals having a discussion, anargument and who wins and so forth. What has happened, I think, is that theologianshave interposed themselves between the people and the Magisterium and have deflectedthe teaching of the church so that it's been obscured and confused in the minds ofpeople. This is what I addressed in the book. I find this--Father McBrien and I couldargue paragraphs and history of council--

FR. MCBRIEN: We'd have our people switching channels if we did. [laughter]

MR.' MCINERNY: Not when you're speaking.

MR. BUCKLEY: I think it's of interest to nonCatholic Protestants and to Jews what isthe "crisis" in the Catholic Church. Which means roughly a billion people, and so I'mvery anxious to identify that crisis. You used the word on the cover of your book and itis a word which you wouldn't hesitate to use, would you Father McBrien? It's got to bea crisis isn't it, ifvirtually the entire flock simply routinely ignores what is considered bysome to be an unimportant doctrinal--

FR. MCBRIEN: No--

MR. BUCKLEY: --mandate?

FR. MCBRIEN: No, that's right. You're right. But keep in mind there's another sideto that crisis. The question is why do so many Catholics, who by the way, never readtheologians, and ifyou gave them a list of theologians , names they wouldn't recognize-They wouldn't be sure if they played for the San Diego Padres or the Chicago Cubs.[laughter]

MR. MCINERNY: But that's disingenuous, because theologians teach the people whogo into the colleges, go into the parishes and so forth, so--

FR. MCBRIEN: Well--

MR. MCINERNY: --whether or not they know them by name--

FR. MCBRIEN: Not really.

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MR. MCINERNY: Ofcourse, everyone knows you.

FR. MCBRIEN: Most people who teach in parish level do not study with the kind oftheologians that we're talking about. But anyway-- By the way, Ralph, you can cometo my course on Catholicism any time, because--

MR. MCINERNY: You can come to mine, too. [laughter]

FR. MCBRIEN: Well, I'd be happy to. But I never, in my course--and I teach over100 students every year--I never once would get up and say the Pope is wrong aboutbirth control.

MR. MCINERNY: Are you saying it now?

FR. MCBRIEN: No, I'mjust-- I disagree with the teaching on birth control.

MR. MCINERNY: Why, because he's wrong? [laughter]

MR. BUCKLEY: No, no, no, no, no, no.

FR. MCBRIEN: I disagree with him. But here's the point. The role of a theologian isnot to advocate against teachings so much as to help people understand what the issuesare. But theologians can't change the minds and experience of large numbers of people.So the real question--Iet me go back to my point--the other side of the crisis of authorityfrom saying, Well, Catholics aren't being obedient to the teaching officials of the church;the other side is, there is a crisis ofleadership. I mean, we shouldn't let the leaders offscot-free, not just popes but also bishops and say, Well, how effectively are theyteaching? Why is there such a wide disconnect from so many people, so many Catholicmarried couples?

MR. BUCKLEY: Is that because--

FR. MCBRIEN: And that has to be addressed too.

MR. BUCKLEY: --ofa lack of plausibility?

FR. MCBRIEN: Well, obviously married couples feel that there is a lack of plausibility.

MR. MCINERNY: I find the present Pope to be a magnificent teacher, and it seems tome when he does speak, people understand him very easily and follow him. What hashappened in this country, for example, when he came on his first visit, it was amagnificent occasion. I remember the scene in Chicago--

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MR. BUCKLEY: But aren't you saying he's charismatic, and nobody would doubtthat, but-

MR. MCINERNY: But here's my point. Immediately after he left, there were peoplewho were undercutting what he said and saying, Well, he doesn't understand the UnitedStates and so forth. So the impact of the man, it seems to me, is sapped right at theroots, axed fight at the roots. Here people were just out in droves to listen to him, asthey are any time he shows up any place. He speaks directly to them. And then alongcome commentators who say, Well, we don't have to believe this, we don't have tobelieve that, he doesn't understand. That's the problem. It seems to me this is what's--

MR. BUCKLEY: Comment?

MR. MCINERNY: --confusing to Catholics.

FR. MCBRIEN: Well, I mean, I wish that theologians and other commentators hadthat kind ofcl()ut. I don't think people make up their minds-- I mean, they don't dothat.

MR. MCINERNY: Well then, why do we have these warnings, why do we have AdTuendam Fidem saying that particularly those who are entrusted with the teaching ofsacred theology have to stop misleading the faithful about these fundamental items?

FR. MCBRIEN: Because there are certain people in the Vatican who, as thispontificate is coming to an end, are trying to solidify whatever gains they feel they'vemade. I think it's a mistake on their part. That is not the way to handle differences ofopinion in the church, by threatening punishment and censure. The way to handledisagreements in the church is to call people together and to restore the collaborativerelationship the theologians and the Magisterium had before, and especially during theSecond Vatican Council.

MR. BUCKLEY: But you are suggesting that situations should be permanentlyopened.

FR. MCBRIEN: Yes.

MR. BUCKLEY: I can understand--

FR. MCBRIEN: Not on every question. Not on every question. On questions that areopen.

MR. BUCKLEY: Say on the question of women priests.

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FR. MCBRIEN: Yes, that's right.

MR. BUCKLEY: The Pope is very fonnal on that point. He's done everything exceptactually speak ex cathedra. Now to be collaborative suggests that one has to try to wooother people to that particular position. Now there's been a lot ofdiscussion on thatpoint, and the Pope has come to certain conclusions. Does that mean that thecollaborative part of that epistemology is done and over, or is it necessarily continuing?

FR. MCBRIEN: On the issue ofordination ofwomen? Of course it's going tocontinue. It's going to continue, however, in a more, let's say, muted fonn, becausepeople don't want to have open confrontation, and they also perhaps--

MR. MCINERNY: What about the Holy Father's statement--

FR. MCBRIEN: Perhaps--

MR. MCINERNY: --that it's not within the power of the church to change thatparticular practice, that it's simply not--

FR. MCBRIEN: Well, when the church--

MR. MCINERNY: I mean--

FR. MCBRIEN: If the church--

MR. MCINERNY: --if his view is going to be simply another theological opinion--

FR. MCBRIEN: But bishops--

MR. MCINERNY: --that's what he's saying, so he's about ready to die--

FR. MCBRIEN: Popes have said all kinds of things in the history of the church, andthey've changed.

MR. MCINERNY: Yes, but not speaking this way--

FR. MCBRIEN: Ralph, I hope-

MR. MCINERNY: --and not in the kind of documents that--

FR. MCBRIEN: I hope we both--

MR. MCINERNY: --Vatican II was characterized by.

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FR. MCBRIEN: I hope we both live long enough to see if this thing changes, becausethe Pope--

MR. MCINERNY: Well, good heavens, I think it's gruesome to suggest that somehowwe are waiting for the Pope to die. [laughterJ

FR. MCBRIEN: No, no, no, no, no. Far be it from me to make a gruesome statement.

MR. MCINERNY: I hope he outlives us both, as a matter of fact.

FR. MCBRIEN: Ob, goodness. .

MR. MCINERNY: He outlived Peter Hebblethwaite, who wrote a book on the nextPope and he expressed views like yours and now he's playing a harp and the Pope iscontinuing to reign. [laughterJ

FR. MCBRIEN: Now you're engaged in gruesome talk.

MR. BUCKLEY: Let's fasten on that for a moment. The stupor mundi, the basis ofChristian thought, rests on certain postulates which are not thought of to be open toreexamination. For instance the Resurrection. Now you don't encourage collaborativeseminars on whether that really happened, do you?

FR. MCBRIEN: Well, ifit's a theology class-- Now I have no problem with my faithin the Resurrection, but that's the role of a theology course. The role of theology is tohelp people to deal with the questions of what happened, what level of historicity are weat?

MR. BUCKLEY: But don't--

FR. MCBRIEN: What do the scriptures mean? The fact of the matter is, there is a richdiscussion about--

MR. BUCKLEY: I can-

FR. MCBRIEN: --the Resurrection--

MR. BUCKLEY: --understand why theologians would say, Here is why it is "true" andwhy our belief in it distinguishes us from the invincibly ignorant.

FR. MCBRIEN: No, that's--

9© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

MR. BUCKLEY: But not to treat it-- I mean, you don't say in a class on politicalscience, Now, we won't commit ourselves as to whether blacks and whites are equal.You start off saying yes, blacks and whites are equal.

FR. MCBRIEN: Listen, there were political science classes prior to the 1960s wherethat would have been an issue to raise as a specific issue. There were Dutch ReformChristians in South Africa who cited scripture to justify apartheid, I mean--

MR. MCINERNY: Oh, it's--

FR. MCBRIEN: --so you've got to-- You can't simply accept the receivedconventional wisdom as if-- You've got to always think about it and be open about it.What does it mean? Even on a matter of faith that you accept and have no problemaccepting when you recite it in the Creed, you still have to continually ask questionsabout it and say what does it mean in the light of developments in Biblical scholarshipand history and so forth. That's all.

MR. BUCKLEY: Professor McInerny?

MR. MCINERNY: I think Father McBrien is right. I mean, that's what a theologiandoes is to explore the mysteri~s of the faith and try to understand them, bring new lighton them and so forth. But of course he would always be guided in the case of theResurrection, that ifChrist had not risen, our faith would be in vain. That speaks prettydirectly to me, I must say. But what happened in the period that we're talking about isnot that we've had these sedate discussions and seminars among experts and so forth,which is theology--and I would say academically anything could go on in there, I mean,in terms ofa responsible inquiry into the teachings of the church and so forth. But whathappens--

MR. BUCKLEY: You mean simply as an academic, as simply-- You say anything canhappen, you mean as a pedagogical exercise?

MR. MCINERNY: Yes, as--

MR. BUCKLEY: All right, now let us assume that Christ did not arise.

MR. MCINERNY: No, no, no.

MR. BUCKLEY: That would be simply an exercise.

MR. MCINERNY: Well, of course you would say, What would happen? Our faithwould be in vain and you would cite St. Paul. But I am thinking of the structure of theSumma of Thomas, which I think is a kind of model of theological discourse. Here's


the doctrine, what are the pros, what are the cons, what do authorities say, what kind ofarguments can we bring forward? That's all, it seems to me, in the glorious tradition oftheology, which is, ofcourse, the most important enterprise in a university. But it seemsto me what happened in the period we're talking about, in 1968 when the encyclicalcame out, a full page ad appeared in The New York Times. This is not theology, this ispolitics. And in it, 86 or 68--1 forget which--nontheologians, by and large-- Someonewrote me a letter the other day indicating that he was surprised to find how many OFMConventuals had signed this thing, and they were all students of a friend of ours.

MR. BUCKLEY: What's an OFM Conventual?

MR. MCINERNY: Pardon? It's a species ofa Franciscan.

MR. BUCKLEY: Yes, I see.

MR. MCINERNY: But he said he had organized meetings of the Catholic TheologicalSociety several times and looked in vain at matters of balance from more OFM cons.

MR. BUCKLEY: This was just simply dissent. This was a body of theologians sayingthe Pope is--

FR. MCBRIEN: Is wrong on that point, yes.

MR. BUCKLEY: --unreasoned on that particular point.

FR. MCBRIEN: Dissent is possible. Are you going to say that dissent is not possible?

MR. BUCKLEY: No, no, no, no.

FR. MCBRIEN: Dissenting opinions are not possible?

MR. BUCKLEY: I know, but dissent and defiance are a little different--

FR. MCBRIEN: But that's characterizing the dissent. I mean, there's such a thing as adissent which is faithful, which is loving, which is issued not to humiliate or in any wayto depreciate the church or its teachers--

MR. MCINERNY: Whom is this addressed to?

FR. MCBRIEN: Wait a minutes. Let me finish. --but to simply continue a discussionabout a point that may be at issue. It's a--


MR MCINERNY: Who was the addressee of that ad, though? This was not to atheological seminar. This was trying to fire up the faithful in defiance of the papaldirection, wasn't it? I mean, why else do it?

FR. MCBRIEN: But here we're supposed to be discussing Vatican II, which is fine.We're more discussing theologians here. But the point is that the surveys alreadyshowed that by 1963 already half the Catholic population of the United States was takinga different position on birth control, so it wasn't that the theologians did it.

MR. MCINERNY: You're citing an authority that I don't know.

MR. BUCKLEY: De facto.

FR. MCBRIEN: Yes, de facto. I mean, again, I am kind of amused by this, because iftheologians have this much authority--

MR MCINERNY: Why should I believe this poll? I've never heard of this poll before.The only ones I have heard are the ones that said 85 percent of the Catholics acceptedthe ban on contraception at the time Humanae Vitae appeared.

FR. MCBRIEN: No, that's-

MR MCINERNY: Read Janet Smith. You'll love it.

FR. MCBRIEN: Read Andrew Greeley. You won't love it. [laughter]

MR MCINERNY: Which Andrew Greeley do you have in mind? The sociologist Ilove.

FR. MCBRIEN: Janet is not a sociologist. We both know that.

MR MCINERNY: What is she?

FR. MCBRIEN: Janet was at Notre Dame. Janet. I said Janet.

MR MCINERNY: I'm talking about her book. I mean--

FR. MCBRIEN: But Janet is not a sociologist, she's a classicist.

MR MCINERNY: I didn't say she was.

FR. MCBRIEN: Oh, okay. But Andrew Greeley is a sociologist.

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MR. MCINERNY: I didn't say she was. I said, Read her book on Humanae Vitae.

FR. MCBRIEN: Ralph, they're going to be switching stations if we continue doingthis.

MR. MCINERNY: I wouldn't accuse her of being a sociologist.

MR. BUCKLEY: Okay, well, let'sjust-- We only have a couple of minutes. Let mesee if! can fasten on this. Professor McInerny's book is called What Went Wrong WithVatican II? What went wrong with it, he says, is that conclusions arrived at by VaticanII hinged on a hierarchical understanding of how Catholic doctrine is taught. And FatherMcBrien seems to be saying that all questions are always open, the John Stuart Millposition.

FR. MCBRIEN: First let me make a point on this--

MR. BUCKLEY: Yes.

FR. MCBRIEN: --because it is central to Ralph's point. I would not disagree withRalph that the authority issue is an important issue in itself and was an important issue ofVatican II. Where I have a problem in this discussion is that we seem to be leaving outall the rest of Vatican II. Vatican II made enormous changes in terms of liturgy, it madeenormous changes in terms of the relationship of the church not only to nonCatholicChristians but to nonChristians; it made enormous changes in terms of the way thechurch relates to the world, reinforcing the social teachings of the church; it madeenormous changes in terms of the whole concept of the church as the whole people ofGod. So again, the issue ofauthority is-- And this is the only thing that makes me alittle bit uncomfortable with the discussion is that we're focusing on an issue which isimportant in itself, but making that as if that's the whole issue, that the only challenge thechurch faces today is how to get all these Catholics to obey the Pope. I mean, that's avery small matter.

MR. MCINERNY: No, the question is how to get the council implemented.

FR. MCBRIEN: It's being implemented.

MR. MCINERNY: In the council itself--

FR. MCBRIEN: It's been implemented for almost forty years.

MR. MCINERNY: It's a hierarchical exercise.

FR. MCBRIEN: Oh--


MR. MCINERNY: This is hierarchical--

FR. MCBRIEN: I'm not up on hierarchy.

MR. MCINERNY: Well, that's where the-- Where do you think the Fathers of thecouncil--

MR. BUCKLEY: Thank you, Father Richard McBrien ofNotre Dame; and thank you,Professor Ralph McInerny, author of What Went Wrong With Vatican II? Ladies andgentlemen.


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FIRinG Line - Digital Collections · ProfessorRalph McInerny ofthe University ofNotre Dame has written a blessedly slim ... Ralph, and I think properly so, the delay between the time