Ouch Talk Show December 2016

bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Kate Monaghan and Simon Minty

[Jingle: Ouch.]

KATE Welcome wherever you are to Ouch, a disability talk show

from the BBC, but don’t switch off, it’s going to be okay, I

promise. I’m Kate Monaghan.

SIMON And I’m Simon Minty. And if you’re not familiar with our

show, well how should I sum it up?

KATE I don’t know. Sum it up, come on.

SIMON Oh no.

KATE Come on, you can do it.

SIMON It’s disability talk…

KATE Yeah, we’ve done that.

SIMON … but very broadly, we don’t sugar-coat it, we just say

how it is, we have a bit of fun.

KATE Yeah.

SIMON Is that all right?

KATE You’re obviously inappropriate quite frequently.

SIMON I often get things wrong. Yeah, thanks very much.

KATE You do.

SIMON This is a seasonal special international edition of the show.

KATE Inter-national. I feel like that needed, you know, because

this is a big deal.

SIMON This month it’s all about disabled people living in far-

flung, often isolated places and we’re joined in Toronto,

Canada, that’s not one of the far-flung places, we’ll go on

to that, by Kelly MacDonald. Hi there Kelly.

KELLY Hi guys.

SIMON How’s everything there?

KELLY It is excellent here, beautiful weather to start December.

SIMON Fantastic. And in Perth, Australia by Holly Lane. Hi there

Holly.

HOLLY Hi.

KATE My grandparents used to live on Holly Lane. I bet you get

that loads don’t you Holly?

HOLLY I do, and photographs of Holly Lane quite regularly.

KATE Of course, yes.

SIMON You will both be helping us shed light on this in a minute

or two, but before that it’s the part of the script where it

says ‘Simon and Kate chat about stuff.’

KATE Our favourite part of the show.

SIMON Last time I saw you you were on a stage showing off your

baby.

KATE I was, yeah.

SIMON You had a conference but Scout appeared, that was good.

KATE Yes she did. I always like to get Scout involved. We were

chatting about… what was the conference about? It was

sort of about the media…

SIMON Branding.

KATE Disability in the media and in adverts and how to get

things better and I brought Scout up because I was looking

after her and I said these are the people that you need to be

aiming the future at, this is the future, Scout shouldn’t be

brought up thinking that having a disabled mummy is a

weird or different thing should she?

SIMON I thought it was just because you couldn’t get any

childcare.

KATE Well, that too you know, but also I thought put her in front

of the advertisers, maybe somebody will pick her up for a

campaign.

SIMON Get some work, nice.

KATE Yeah. What have you been up to?

SIMON I went to the Wyndham’s Theatre in London.

KATE Oh lovely, what did you see?

SIMON It’s a play called ‘No Man’s Land’ and it had Sir Ian

McKellan and Sir Patrick Stewart in it.

KATE Oh, fancy.

SIMON The ticket prices were crazy expensive so I did the disabled

ones.

KATE Yeah, you got the access ones.

SIMON And then they’re really cheap, or a lot cheaper. But

essentially there’s a little kind of wardrobe in the middle of

the street that you open this door and you go in and there’s

a platform lift or three steps and there’s a little box for

disableds. So there were four of us

KATE Like Narnia?

SIMON Yeah exactly, exactly, but it’s on the street and there’s just

four seats there and there was a door on the right and I said

to them, “what’s that?” and they said, “that’s your own

loo,” we had a toilet right next to us. It’s surreal.

KATE What? Hold on a second, you sit in a wardrobe on the

street to watch the play?

SIMON They’ve built out from the theatre so it looks like there’s

just this wardrobe door in the middle of the street. You

open it and then suddenly you’re in this little box looking

into the theatre.

KATE Like a fancy box? Like one of the boxes where like the

Queen sits?

SIMON No, not posh. There’s only four of us, we do have our own

loo which is brilliant and just chairs and they’ve got a

platform lift. I mean it’s remarkable and when you leave

they come and open the door and you’re back out on the

street. You don’t leave with everybody else. Oh it’s really

strange.

KATE Wow. Did it make you feel…? Was it like a good thing or

a bad thing? I can’t quite tell from your face whether you

are happy about this or not.

SIMON Exactly, exactly. It was so surprising and so surreal and I

couldn’t quite get over the whole concept. I mean it was

great, we saw the play and it was great and Sir Ian

McKellan was amazing.

KATE Good seats, like good view?

SIMON You’re at the back but you’re in the stalls. It’s a restricted

view but as they told me there’s nothing that goes on high

up on stage so we could see it all, because of the low

ceiling. It’s not an acrobatic…

KATE That’s what they pretended to you.

SIMON It sort of felt special but mixed special. You’re a VIP, I felt

a bit like a VIP.

KATE Nice.

SIMON Holly?

KATE Do you have a special wardrobe that you go into for theatre

performances in Australia?

HOLLY From the shows and stuff that I’ve seen here in Perth it’s

been really, really good, the access has been really, really

good, but as I say it’s in Perth so it’s Western Australia’s

capital so you’d hope that most of the venues would be

accessible.

SIMON And it’s relatively young. How old is Perth? It’s quite

young, says he.

HOLLY Well…

SIMON In the sense of how we know it, yeah.

HOLLY Yeah, about 1850, 1860, something like that. So yeah, in

world terms I’m sure it’s a very young city.

KATE Well Holly, you’re there in the studios of ABC in Australia

chatting to us and you’re a disabled freelancer?

HOLLY Yes that’s right, I have cerebral palsy and I’ve been living

in Perth now for two and a half years.

KATE And Kelly, you’re in another studio, you’re at AMI Audio

and you host a weekday radio show?

KELLY That’s right, Kelly and Company, we run it from, well your

time out there in the UK it would be eight pm at night, a

couple of hours every day, Monday to Friday and it’s a

variety show, health, arts and entertainment, lifestyle,

leisure, and we have a lot of fun so I’m the host and I co-

host with a wonderful, very experienced lady and we have

a lot of fun on the show

KATE And you have a disability?

KELLY I’m vision impaired, pretty well totally blind now, I have

retinitis pigmentosa and it’s got to where I can barely see

now.

KATE Back to the show. Here in the UK most of us live fairly

close to big towns or cities and I mean Simon and I both

live in central London so we have no idea what it’s like to

live in a country like…

SIMON It’s space and people. What have we got, ten million in

London?

KATE Yeah, ten million people in five miles? Is that right? I’m

looking to my producer who’s… He’s telling me a bit

more, he said five miles before but I feel he may have been

exaggerating. Maybe ten miles, let’s say ten million people

in ten miles’ radius, let’s not quote me on that. And the

UK’s generally a tiny country in comparison to Canada

and Australia where Kelly and Holly are and it makes life

much easier and more convenient for us disabled people

with support and resources on our doorstep, relatively

speaking, obviously not everyone lives in central London,

but parts of Canada are in the Arctic Circle, miles from

anywhere and in Australia it’s so big with such a small

number of people you guys must all be rattling around a

little bit.

SIMON We’re going to be asking daft questions aren’t we? We’re

going to be going “why” quite a lot probably in the show?

KATE Yeah, daft questions, that’s what we do best. But first

things first. Holly, you have recently moved out to

Australia from the UK, I can hear a tiny bit of an

Australian accent creeping in there actually. So what made

you make that move, because it’s not a small one to make

is it?

HOLLY No, definitely not. My family moved out before me so I

was the last one in the UK so I basically turned the lights

out on Britain and moved across to Perth about two and a

half years ago to join the rest of my family and start life.

KATE Did that make the move easier, that you had family out

there already?

HOLLY Yes and no. I’d obviously visited Perth quite a lot in the

intervening years, so for like the last five or six years I’ve

been coming over here regularly on holidays and seeing

the family and seeing my nephew and stuff, but it did

actually sort of, I feel, stop me from pushing the

boundaries and actually going out and meeting people

deliberately, which is kind of something that you have to

do I think when you emigrate.

KATE I love that, can I just say I love the slight Australian twang.

SIMON Twang that’s coming in.

KATE Like ‘naeiouuu’.

SIMON And what about being a person that’s disabled? Is it

cerebral palsy? Is there any difference there compared to

here?

HOLLY So yes, I have cerebral palsy which affects both my legs

and my right arm and what I’ve found really

discombobulating if you like is that I didn’t see anybody, I

spent days looking for disabled people and there just

wasn’t anyone around.

SIMON Do you mean just like walking around or in the shops or in

the theatre?

HOLLY In the shops, in the theatre, on street corners, just going

about their usual daily lives.

SIMON So the visible ones, yeah, the ones that you can see.

KATE So Holly, you’ve got a guest in the studio with you, can

you introduce us to her and just see whether she agrees

with you on that.

HOLLY Yes, so I’ve got the lovely Sam Jenkinson in the studio

with me, she works for an organisation, People With

Disabilities, Western Australia, it’s an advocacy group and

she’s been living in Perth for a while now but she has

actually lived all across Australia.

SIMON Sam?

SAM Hi Simon.

SIMON Hi there. Is it hard to find people with disabilities, as

Holly’s saying, they’re not out on the streets?

SAM Look, in some ways yes. I have a disability myself as well

and I moved across to Melbourne and lived for a while and

found that compared to Perth Melbourne had a lot more

people with disabilities out and about on the streets that

you saw around in the city.

KATE And you’re paraplegic, is that right?

SAM Quadriplegic, but yeah, I use a wheelchair full time.

KATE I’ve got a friend who actually did the same thing as you

Holly, and he moved from London but he went to

Melbourne and he said that the public transport system and

infrastructure is so much easier for him, he’s got muscular

dystrophy and uses a scooter all the time, he said the

difference between kind of getting around in London and

getting around in Melbourne is humungous, he said his life

is so much better out there. Is that generally true?

HOLLY Well yes, I mean I’m in love with Transperth which is the

transport system in Perth, it is fantastic. When I was

traveling around in London and I’d have to use the tube or

the bus I’d be panicking, I’d be planning my route, I’d be

knowing where I’d have to sit and get to the door and get

off and I’d be thinking about all of these things and it

would really, really stress me out throughout my journey

and to such an extent that I’d try and avoid using public

transport at all costs.

SIMON Just for us can you give us an idea of the size of Western

Australia so we can try and get our heads round this?

SAM Sort of the size of Europe.

SIMON Just Western Australia’s the size of Europe.

KATE And how many people live there?

SIMON Six. And we’re talking to three… No there’s not, there’s

quite a lot isn’t there?

HOLLY So the whole of Western Australia from what I understand

is about 2.5 million people.

KATE So that’s kind of like the population of Greater Manchester

spread across the size of Europe?

SAM That’s right.

KATE Wow.

SIMON All that space must be lovely. Having been and if you go a

bit north, is there Wave Rock, is that what it was called?

You’ve got amazing landscapes there haven’t you?

HOLLY Yeah, we’ve got a real diverse selection of flora and fauna

and you can do beach, you can do forests and all kinds of

things over here, yeah.

KATE And how many disabled people are there in Western

Australia, do you have any idea?

SAM Oh gosh, there’s about one in five, so it’s estimated that in

terms of people that would need disability services support

would be close to about 40,000 and then on top of that

there’d probably be another 80,000 to 100,000 of people

across the age spectrum with different sorts of disabilities.

KATE So why aren’t you seeing them out and about? Is it too

difficult to get out or are there just so few people

generally?

SIMON And if the transport’s good and stuff, yes you’d think.

HOLLY Well I’ve been told by my friends that I’m just not

culturally aware, that most Western Australians drive, and

that my love for the transport system is ill-founded, they

can’t get their heads around the fact that I love the fact that

I can get to the platform, I can get on the train and all that.

SIMON But presumably disabled parking bays would all be full

then wouldn’t they? That would be one clue.

HOLLY Yes, and they’re not big ones either, they don’t do extra

big disabled parking spaces here, they’re narrow.

SIMON And yet you’ve all this space. That’s annoying.

HOLLY Yes, I know.

KATE We’ve got another guest who’s in Australia on the line

with us at the moment and this person lives way out in the

sticks.

SIMON Proper.

KATE Yeah. Jo, are you there?

JO I’m here, thank you.

KATE Hi Jo, how are you today?

JO I’m very well thanks, good to be talking to you.

KATE Now whereabouts do you live?

JO I live in a town called Kalgoorlie-Boulder which is 600

kilometres from Perth. We’re a mining region and we

actually possess the biggest hole in the world, known as

the Super Pit which is for the purpose of mining.

SIMON This is gold mining is it?

JO Yeah, gold mining.

SIMON How big is it?

JO We have a population of about 35,000 people.

SIMON 35,000 people. I’m imagining this pit is the size of the UK

because everything’s so big. How big is your gold mine?

JO Huge. I couldn’t do an actual estimation but it’s very, very,

very big.

KATE If you live in a goldmine is like all your house made of

gold? Do you have gold everything?

JO I wish we had gold everything, I’d be delighted.

SIMON I have visited Kalgoorlie…

KATE Oh get you on your travels.

SIMON Yeah, when I was backpacking, finding myself, and I got

the train from Adelaide to Perth because I thought a two

and a half day train trip would be an adventure. It turned

out that it’s quite repetitive, that Nullarbor Plain is pretty

much the same all the way, except we stopped in

Kalgoorlie and we had an hour and we got off and went to

a local bar and had a drink and then got back on the train.

And it was exciting, it’s great to meet so many… I didn’t

really speak to anybody but it seems like a very transitory

town, people come in, they do their stuff. But you’re

properly there, you’re staying there, that’s where you live

Jo?

JO I’ve been in Kalgoorlie now for 45 years and you’re quite

correct, it is a very transitory population, people come here

generally to work, get ahead in life and then they tend to

depart.

KATE So what’s disability like in a smallish town like yours?

JO Sometimes it can be difficult to access appropriate

services. We have a very high turnover of allied health

such as physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech

therapy, and that kind of thing and so sometimes it’s

difficult to access what you need to for those people you

are looking after with the disability.

KATE So you have two children who are on the autistic spectrum.

Tell me a bit about them.

JO That’s quite right. Daniel is 27, he has more an Aspergic

form of autism, he works 20 hours a week, he’s quite

independent in the community but needs a background

social support. And then we also have a 12, nearly 13 year

old daughter called Megan who is on the more intense and

severe end of the spectrum, she attends a special education

centre. She has limited vocabulary skills and she’s also

epileptic and we also have one that we describe as normal,

but I mean what’s normal?

KATE What was it like trying to get a diagnosis for them when

you live in such a small community? Was that a difficult

thing? Are there specialists who live there?

JO For the purposes of diagnosis of autism we don’t have the

specialists who live here. In WA you need to have a

paediatrician, a psychologist and a speech therapist, so you

need those three professionals to agree that there is the

criteria for a diagnosis. In the days that Daniel got

diagnosed which is about 20 years ago, more, 22, 23, it

wasn’t so hard to get a diagnosis, whereas for Megan if we

had gone through the public system it would have taken

about four years for her to be diagnosed, but we chose to

go private and access a team in Perth who diagnosed her

with autism and that cost us about $1,200 at the time.

SIMON Could you just clarify, Jo, how far did you say? 600

kilometres from Perth?

JO That’s correct, yes.

SIMON So I just imagine everyone flies everywhere. Do you get

helicopters and planes? Am I being a bit daft?

JO We have planes, but we have the most expensive amount

of money per kilometre in the whole of Australia, so

traveling to Perth via plane which takes one hour is quite

expensive, the other alternative is to drive six or seven

hours or take a train which is also six to seven hours and

access Perth that way.

KATE I just can’t get over the fact that in order to see somebody

to get your child diagnosed you have to get on a plane. It’s

crazy because Simon and I are both in a position where if

we wanted to see a world leading specialist in our

condition you would just hop on a bus and go to the local

hospital and I have got specialists coming out of my ears

that I could see. That’s not the case for everyone in the UK

obviously but the fact that you live so far away from any

kind of help and support just blows my mind really. Did

you ever feel like you wanted to move closer to be nearer?

JO Well we considered it at one stage, but the benefit of living

in a smaller contained community meant that our children

are well known by most of the community and therefore

that generates the ability to have inclusion and acceptance

within your region, whereas if we moved to Perth and

occupied a suburb there it would be very difficult to build

the same support network on an informal basis that we

currently enjoy in Kalgoorlie.

KATE But I mean talking about small communities Jo, you’ve

told us that your son goes to the same electrical store every

day. Can you tell me about that?

JO In Australia we have an electrical and furniture franchise

known as Harvey Norman. Harvey Norman in Kalgoorlie

are only two streets from the residential home and ever

since Daniel was 15 he’s gone to Harvey Norman every

day at five o'clock to sit in the massage chair, turn it on,

drink his Coke, read his book and watch a movie on the

screen.

SIMON Brilliant.

KATE Do they put a movie on specially for him?

JO Oh no, he’ll just watch what’s going, but the acceptance

that we enjoy in the Boulders community is characterised

by the fact that there were two or three days when Daniel

didn’t go to Harvey Norman for whatever reason, I can’t

remember, and I actually had a call from the store to ask

how Daniel was because he hadn’t been in for that two or

three days and they just wanted to ensure that he was

feeling okay.

SIMON Brilliant.

JO So that’s the kind of…

KATE You would never get that in London, no not a chance.

JO No, I would imagine not, no. So that is the positive aspect

of living in a fairly isolated region.

SIMON And Jo, you’re also technically under the disability banner

because did you have a breakdown at some point a little

while back? I don’t know if this is stuff you’re okay to talk

about?

JO Yes I did have a breakdown, quite a severe mental

breakdown requiring multiple admissions to a clinic. I was

treatment resistant so I didn’t respond to any medication so

the only thing that brought about an improvement in my

mental health was ECT which of course most people

associate with ‘One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest’ but it’s

actually quite a scientific process these days and that was

probably responsible for me returning to good mental

health.

SIMON Wow.

JO Yeah, so it’s been an interesting journey.

SIMON Goodness me, that’s a whole show in itself you know there

Jo. Goodness me.

JO Yes. I won’t bore everyone though.

SIMON No, it’s just that little bit, I mean oh…

KATE Now Jo, you’re in the middle of Australia where I think…

SIMON 24 degrees.

KATE Yeah, according to my Google it says it’s been about 24

degrees today.

SIMON Phew, what a scorcher.

KATE Now I want to introduce you to Mike, now Mike we hope

is on the line. Hi Mike?

MIKE Hi, how are you?

KATE I’m well, how are you?

MIKE I’m okay.

KATE There is just a little bit of delay on this line. Now Mike,

what’s the temperature where you are?

MIKE Today with the wind chill it’s minus 40.

KATE Minus 40! ((laughs))

JO Oh my god.

SIMON Hang on, there is a similarity, is there 37,000 people? Now

Mike you’re in, I can’t pronounce this properly, Iqaluit?

MIKE Yeah, you got it right.

KATE Hey, impressive

SIMON Okay, I’m not going to say it again.

KATE Tell us whereabouts that is because I don’t think any of us

know where that is.

SIMON And sort of paint us a picture. What’s it like?

MIKE We’re actually on Baffin Island, that’s probably the best

way to describe it.

KATE What, sorry Mike?

MIKE Out in the middle of the Arctic Ocean.

KATE Oh wow. If you look out of your window what can you

see?

MIKE Right now? Just a lot of whirling snow. Right now we’re

kind of in the downtown area but if you look out our one

window you would see the airport…

KATE Just realising I’ve asked that question to somebody who is

visually impaired which…

SIMON Kate, do some gymnastics.

KATE ((laughs))

SIMON I’ll play some basket, let’s all do inappropriate things shall

we?

KATE Apologies Mike. But he’s doing a good job with telling…

SIMON Jo and Mike, I think you two need to… you have the same

population but completely different temperatures, talk to

each other.

JO Hi Mike.

MIKE Hi.

JO We currently had 38 degrees on Saturday, Celsius.

MIKE Oh wow, I think I’m jealous.

KATE Mike, would you rather live somewhere super cold like

you are or super hot like Jo is?

MIKE I don’t know, I think it gets too hot for me and it gets too

cold for me so I don’t think I can win.

KATE Oh you should come to London, we’re smack bang in the

middle there. Jo, what about you? Would you rather have

the super hot or would you quite a like a trip to the super

cold? What do you think?

JO Oh no, I love the heat, especially if it’s dry heat and

sometimes in the gold fields during the summer we reach

temperatures of 47, 48.

SIMON You see, this is all mind-blowing. Mike, I’m not going to

ask you to do it, but I want to imagine, if you were to go

outside now…

KATE No, I think he should go outside.

SIMON Well you could but I don’t know how long it’s going to

take you. Is it going to take you ten minutes to get

downstairs and outside and have you got to put 20 coats

and hats on?

MIKE I could just stick my head out the door.

SIMON Ah nice.

KATE Yeah, stick your head out the door, tell us what it’s like if

you stick your head out the door.

SIMON We need you just to describe it because it’s beyond our

comprehension.

MIKE ((pause))

KATE This is cracking radio everybody.

SIMON Jo’s just cracking open a cold beer.

KATE Holly?

HOLLY I would be stiff as a board if I was…

KATE I know, me too, I wouldn’t be able to move for the pain

and the freezing cold.

MIKE Oh I would say right now sticking your head out there it’s

like sticking your head into an extremely cold freezer.

SIMON You know when you drink a really cold drink and you get

brain freeze when it kind of hurts your head a little bit, is it

like that?

MIKE Yeah.

SIMON And this is constant. Do you just not go out a lot?

MIKE You can still go out, you just dress up.

SIMON Got you, of course.

KELLY In layers, in layers.

KATE Okay, lots of layers.

SIMON From balmy Toronto, yes, a little bit more.

KELLY Exactly.

KATE Well I think for now we’re going to say goodbye to Jo and

thank you so much for chatting with us.

SIMON Thank you Jo.

JO My pleasure.

KATE So go and enjoy the heat while we continue to talk about

the cold, but thank you very much for your time.

KELLY Heat and the gold.

JO No worries, thank you.

KATE Yeah, and send us some gold when you find some.

JO I will indeed.

KATE Thanks, bye.

SIMON So practically Mike, I mean do you use a cane when you’re

out and about or is it a guide dog? And I mean are there

sort of challenges being vision impaired in that

temperature?

MIKE Actually as my wife is here she’d be better able to speak to

that.

KATE Okay, let’s say hello to Jenna.

MIKE Hold on.

SIMON Oh Mike, if you haven’t already do bring your head back

inside.

KATE Hi Jenna?

JENNA Hi.

KATE Hi.

SIMON I was asking in terms of the challenges of being visually

impaired in a cold place like that, whether it’s a guide dog,

sticks? Are there any particular hazards you have to be

aware of?

JENNA Yeah, there’s no sidewalks up here so when you’re trying

to walk alongside the road it could be a little tricky because

some of the sidewalks are pretty narrow because you have

I guess steep bits on one side and then you have cars going

on the other side. And we have a long winter season so it’s

dark and there’s only a few hours of daylight so it’s pretty

tricky trying to navigate with a guide dog.

KATE Does that not give visually impaired people an advantage

though? If everyone’s in the dark you’re kind of used to

being in the dark, you can get yourself around more.

SIMON This is some disability awareness course you’ve been on

Kate is it?

JENNA Yeah. Well there’s like dark objects and stuff that you

can’t see as well in the dark and then sometimes you get

blinded by headlights and so it’s good and bad.

KELLY I’d imagine too you can’t be seen as well either. I know

when it’s really dark in November and even down in

Toronto here, as a matter of fact just the other day they

were saying because we had rainy dark weather with it

being like November there were over 20 people hit in the

city by cars. So that’s a hazardous thing too.

SIMON Kelly, you’ve been up there, you made a documentary.

KELLY Yes.

SIMON What were some of the things that startled you or the

differences?

KELLY Well as Jenna mentioned, and hey Jenna and hey Mike, the

lack of sidewalks were really tough for me wandering. I

would find that, I like to walk a lot with no gloves on, just

because I can hold my cane, I can feel, but the biting cold

would get to me as it does even down here down south of

Toronto. And the cold that you talked about, sticking your

head out, I tend to wear fedora hats, that’s one of the things

I always walk with, and I’ve a shaven head so when that

hat comes off that cold feels a lot like knives digging right

in and when you’re talking that kind of cold which we only

experience in the south here maybe a few times in a winter

time and when it gets even colder it really bites.

KATE I think we’ve got a clip from your TV documentary that

you made Kelly. Let’s take a listen.

LEANNA At the end you’ve got to go really, really fast.

KELLY Really, really fast. So I was dragging ((throat singing)).

KATE Kelly, what the heck was that? What did we just hear?

SIMON What did you think it was?

KATE Well I don’t want to say what I thought it was.

KELLY I want to hear what you think it was.

SIMON I think the microphone got a bit close to a guide dog, that’s

my theory.

KELLY ((laughs)) Well you’re probably closer in that sense Simon

because even though it’s supposed to be more nature

animal sounds that’s katajjaq, so I was throat singing, I was

getting a throat singing lesson over at the high school.

They were being very basic with me to start with and that

was myself and Leanna going back and forth making

noises and having some fun doing what they do when it

comes to the art of katajjaq.

SIMON Okay, this is where I normally get it wrong, culturally

inappropriate. Because it’s a big Inuit population there and

the language is Inui…? I can’t pronounce it.

KELLY Inuktitut. And where katajjaq primarily started from when

women were home with the children or walking all

bundled up and the children are snug against them they

would make noises, but primarily as a game and

entertainment the women, when hanging out together

would hold elbows and the idea is to mimic the other,

follow the other’s lead and do almost like ping-pong back

and forth noises.

KATE Now I’m fascinated to know that there’s no word for

disability in the Inuit language but I’ve heard that there’s

like 72 words for snow so how is that possible?

KELLY I think it’s the viewpoint that the Inuit had of disability, the

people were absorbed and just… And I don’t know if it’s a

matter or people just paying attention. When I was there I

found people were very quick to hold a door but treat me,

it was just like it was every day. And in the big city in

Toronto people just don’t do stuff like that, sometimes

they’re too busy with their phones or whatever. But I felt

there was just more awareness without being stifling,

without oh my goodness, a blind guy.

KATE Jenna, you are an Inuit yourself so do you agree with what

Kelly’s saying?

JENNA Yes, I’m half Inuit and yeah, I think people up here are

very quick to try to accommodate different disabilities as

well as blindness.

KATE Do you know if there’s an Inuit word for disability?

JENNA

No I don’t.

MIKE There isn’t one from what I’ve been told, it was just a

name that they came up with for togetherness, it’s actually

not anything to do with disability, because there’s not even

a word for it because the Inuits don’t believe in titles is the

way it was explained to me, so to use the word disability is

to give somebody a title which they don’t believe in, they

find it discriminatory.

KATE I think I quite like that.

SIMON Yeah. You see we’re hearing the advantages. It’s a bit like

family, your family don’t keep banging on about this really

because you are who you are and when you’re in a smaller

group that’s just you, that’s part of you.

KATE Holly?

HOLLY Sam, what is the viewpoint from an aboriginal perspective

from Australia?

SAM Well it’s actually quite similar in that many of the

aboriginal nations actually don’t have words for disability

either. I think it’s that whole thing of in such small

communities and it’s a very tight knit family culture,

family based culture, it’s not about disability, it’s about

helping each other out.

KELLY And everybody does what they do, everybody has their

roles, whether your dad, your brother, and that falls under

and everybody’s expected to do the same things and it’s a

given they can.

SIMON So Mike, you are American and you’ve chosen to live

there. Was that kind of a big leap, a big decision? I mean

did you do it for love?

MIKE Yeah, more for love than… I don’t think there was a lot of

me having to really think on it all that hard.

SIMON It wasn’t on your original top three destinations but you

fell in love with someone who lived there?

MIKE You know what? I didn’t even know it existed until Jenna

told me about it.

SIMON And I’m going to be a bit inappropriate now. Was there a

kind of moment going, oh my goodness, this is quite a big

jump?

MIKE It was a little scary, yeah. I think the moment hit more

when I was getting on the plane.

SIMON Of course.

KATE So just stay there for just one minute everybody because

we are going to have a quick break for just a tiny bit of

housekeeping because coming up…

[music: ‘Spread the Hope’]

KATE That was ‘Spread the Hope’, a song written by Jessica

Taylor. We always play a track from a disabled person to

end our show but you’ll have to hang on till the end to find

out what’s up with her. It’s the best game we could come

up with this Christmas actually, sorry about that. Now, this

might not be politically correct exactly in some circles, but

does anyone want to take a guess at what’s wrong with

Jessica Taylor? We’re all disabled people right, so we can

have a go. Holly, what do you think? What could be the

problem?

HOLLY Oh I don’t know, maybe she’s an amputee.

KATE Amputee okay. Kelly?

KELLY I think she’s hearing impaired.

KATE Hearing impaired.

SIMON Bit harsh. She’s a singer, songwriter.

KATE Mm-mm bit harsh on the writer of the song there Kelly.

But okay. Simon?

SIMON I’ve only heard her voice, how can I guess?

KATE Well that’s the game, the Christmas game.

SIMON I like amputee because it’s random.

KATE Okay so we get two for amputee and one for hearing

impaired. We will find that out later.

SIMON If you want to get in touch the email is ouch@bbc.co.uk,

tweet @bbcouch or find us on Facebook. And this month

we want you to contact us right now and tell us where you

are and what is it you’re doing as you’re listening to us.

We’ve had emails from you saying you’re listening in bed

or when you’re on the bus or while you’re on the way to

work and there’s one while you’re mending a yacht and

there’s people in…

KATE Fancy person listening who owns a yacht who listens to us.

SIMON There’s people in residential accommodation who use our

show as a discussion starter and all sorts.

KATE Oh that’s a bit of pressure isn’t it?

SIMON It’s slightly worrying as in how not to present the show do

you think?

KATE Yeah exactly, how they could do it better I think would be

fair.

SIMON Cheeky whatsits. Anyway, do tell us what you’re doing,

where you are, as you’re listening to us. And round the

microphones we still have Holly Lane and Samantha

Jenkinson in Perth. In Toronto is Kelly MacDonald and on

the phone from Iqaluit where it is still well below zero is

Mike Stopka. Anyway, it’s Christmas, we haven’t even

talked about this properly yet.

KATE Yay. And you are sporting a mighty fine Christmas jumper

today, I have to say.

SIMON And I texted you to say are you wearing yours.

KATE Yeah and I did.

SIMON Sort of, it’s not quite as loud and as embarrassing as mine.

I’ve been walking around the BBC with a Christmas

jumper on.

KATE You look awesome.

SIMON People keep smiling at me and I can’t tell if it’s because

I’m a little bloke or whether I’ve got my stupid jumper on.

Anyhow, it is Christmas.

KATE I think it’s a bit of both.

SIMON It always is. I am keen to know about your celebrations,

what they consist of up in Canada and obviously down

there in Australia. So is it unwrapping presents with

family? Food? Is it about television? What happens with

you guys? Maybe we’ll start in Australia. Holly?

HOLLY Okay, so I’m going up to see my parents, they live about

an hour and a half outside of Perth and I intend to eat cold

meats, salad and cold things. Lots of cold things.

KATE That’s not Christmas.

HOLLY It is Christmas.

KATE Christmas is about turkey and mashed potato and sausages.

HOLLY No, it’s always really hot.

SIMON And it’s not about mashed potato. But why cold? Oh,

because it’s too hot. Sam? Is it the same for you?

SAM Yeah, sometimes we’ll have a barbeque, chuck a few

prawns on the barbie…

SIMON Stop it.

KATE Chuck a shrimp on the barbie.

SAM Yeah, maybe have breakfast down at the beach if it’s a nice

day before it gets too hot.

SIMON Kelly?

KELLY Like you say, opening the presents, maybe even one you

get to sneak the night before. Food-wise, ham or turkey,

some people get into the prime ribs. Sweet potatoes, some

veg and stuffing of course with the cranberries.

SIMON Yeah, you kind of want that.

KATE And Mike, can you even get out of your door to maybe

make a snowman?

MIKE I suppose we could do that. We do pretty much the same

thing as everybody else, we have Christmas with our

friends and the families around, we have it with family and

turkey or ham and mashed potatoes and all that good stuff.

KATE Can I ask a stupid question?

SIMON Go on Kate.

KATE Mike, do you have a problem getting food and stuff where

you are?

MIKE It depends on the airplane, sometimes you can go into the

store and the shelves can be completely empty.

JENNA Yeah, if we get bad weather then the planes won’t come in

and we need the planes to bring cargo in the winter.

KATE That’s Jenna who’s with Mike.

MIKE Even the last time I was in the store I saw some sad

looking lettuce.

KATE I mean have you got food delivery? Because we do this

thing where you just hop online, order your food, it turns

up at your door the next day, it’s wonderful. Do you not

have that?

MIKE No.

JENNA No.

SIMON ((laughs)) There was just no hesitation. No.

KATE Just no. Do you have Netflix? Sit down and watch a

Christmas movie on Netflix?

JENNA We don’t have Netflix because our internet is satellite

based, so streaming services like that are too slow to

stream. It starts buffering and it’s not worth it for us.

KATE Satellite based, does that mean that the internet comes from

space?

SIMON Oh, here we go.

JENNA Yes.

SIMON I was thinking this could be the place where Netflix and

chill started, if ever there was a place.

KELLY It was interesting when we were shooting our documentary

because we would text each other being Toronto people

used to doing that when we’re in the same hotels, more or

less 40 feet away and how long it would take you to get

down and well I texted you guys, why didn’t you reply?

Then it would show up. So we found that these guys made

a good point when we were sitting with them that it makes

people end up going out more and talking more and not

relying so much when… in the summertime that is.

KATE Yeah, but because it’s freezing, why would you go out?

KELLY On need.

MIKE Because you haven’t really got a choice either.

KELLY Yeah.

SIMON Yeah. Kate, she’s really stuck on the whole city thing, but I

take your point which is you have to make a bit more

effort, but you were saying you wouldn’t bother, Kate?

KATE Have you got a McDonalds?

SIMON Oh no.

KELLY Oh, explain that.

JENNA No McDonalds, no Walmart.

SIMON Presumably you’re very good at planning, you have to

think about these things, you make sure you’ve got

provisions in. I quite like the idea of kind of nesting and

getting ready and snuggling down.

KATE Yeah, but only if you’ve got Netflix or iPlayer or, you

know.

SIMON There’s DVDs. There’s still other things.

MIKE Yeah, I was going to say, you get DVDs and CDs, you find

enough of those around here and you can watch movies

and stuff for hours and not need Netflix.

JENNA And we do have a movie theatre.

KELLY And you guys have eateries there, restaurants and other

places, pizza places.

MIKE Yeah.

KELLY The price is a little higher as you can imagine with food

being what it is and there being less choice up there, but

Iqaluit has what guys, 10,000 people in it?

MIKE About that.

JENNA A little less than that, yes.

SIMON So this is the natural follow up, if everything is quite

expensive do you have quite well paid jobs as well? Are

the salaries quite high up there? It makes me…

KATE I’m stuck on what they’re going to have for tea tonight,

I’m a bit worried about them.

SIMON They’ve planned.

JENNA Yeah, well with my job I get what’s called northern

allowance, so I get a little bit of extra money on top of my

salary to help with the living costs up here.

KATE Northern allowance. Is that a bit like London weighting?

SIMON I have to ask a rude question. Why do people live up there?

What’s up there? Is there a reason?

JENNA I think most people move up here for work. There’s also a

lot of science research that happens up here and there’s a

lot of government and mining.

MIKE Yes, I was going to say there’s a lot of mining.

SIMON What do you guys both do?

JENNA I do fishing licences for the federal government.

KATE And Mike?

MIKE I despatch taxis. I was going to say something smart to that

but I decided I would rephrase it.

KATE You’re welcome to give me the smart answer.

MIKE Because she was stuck on it’s freezing I was going to tell

her that I despatch snow dogs.

KATE ((laughs)) I think I would have believed you if you’d said

that.

HOLLY I’d like a sled.

KATE Yeah, do you guys go dog sledding and stuff?

MIKE We have not since we’ve been up here. There are people

up here that do though.

KATE Wow. I think I’d like that bit of living up there.

JENNA We’ve gotten out on a skidoo.

KATE Oh a skidoo.

SIMON That’s one reason I’d move, skidoos would always get me

there. Kelly? I’m sorry, there’s a time delay and I’m

talking over you again.

KELLY I said except for the cold if you were out on the skidoo or

the snowmobile on the sea ice.

SIMON Are there sort of disability organisations there? Do they

help disabled people get into employment? Is there a kind

of a good structure?

MIKE That’s something we’re working on. I’ve been in multiple

meetings in the last few weeks with the government, both

territory and the federal government and it is something

we’re actually in the process of correcting. Some of the

goals that the government up here have seemed to be that

they want to get more of the people with disabilities into

jobs.

SIMON Thank you so much Mike and thank you Jenna. I think we

should go and visit don’t you?

KATE Yes.

SIMON Couldn’t stay too long, there is the cold.

JENNA Thank you for having us.

MIKE Yes, thank you for having us.

KATE Thank you.

SIMON So back to Australia. We have Holly and Sam hanging on

the line there but we also have someone else to talk to, this

is Tony Taylor who’s set up something called Men’s Shed.

Tell me a bit more Tony?

TONY Hi Simon. I’m a member of a shed here in Berrigan in New

South Wales, down southern New South Wales, at the

original starting of this particular shed but it is a part of the

Australian Men’s Shed Association and I’m the inaugural

secretary and I think I’ve got that job until they carry me

out in a wooden box.

KATE So you set up your local branch of Men’s Shed. Can you

tell me what Men’s Shed actually is?

TONY Yeah, Men’s Shed’s a group of guys that get together in an

area, in a town, with a common purpose and that is to

support one another, to look after each other and to give

guys actually something to do when they get up in the

morning. A lot of the fellows are retired, not all, but a lot

of the fellows are retired, they certainly are in our shed,

and they’ve now got a purpose because they can go along

to Men’s Shed twice a week and they can engage in

activities there that allows them to engage with other men

and get away from the wife for half a day and it sort of

helps the guys get through, particularly when they’ve

retired. There’s quite a few guys that get a bit lost after

they’ve been retired for a while.

SIMON Well that was going to be my question, it sounds like kind

of good mental health and good wellbeing, is it because

people at a certain stage were kind of losing their way or

didn’t have a purpose after not working anymore?

TONY Yeah, there’s a number of reasons for it, the area that we’re

in here down in Berrigan, it’s considered to be a socio-

economic problem area like a lot of areas are in the rural

parts of New South Wales and in fact right across

Australia. You find a lot of these guys retire or stop

farming or quite often the partner has died or may have left

and these fellows are left by themselves in isolated

farmhouses and in a small town and you just need

something that you can go to that you can meet and

communicate with other men. And what it leads to is

everybody looking after everybody else and we take

particular note of guys’ individual situations and try and

ensure that they are looked after.

KATE Holly and Sam, is this something that’s a big Australian

hit?

HOLLY Yeah, it started several years ago organically and in about

2010 they actually made an association, because it’s very

Australian, Australian men culturally don’t tend to talk

about their feelings and so if they have an activity they

kind of get in and start talking while they’re doing things.

SAM Without even realising it. ((laughs))

HOLLY It’s kind of talking by default.

SIMON I don’t know if that’s exclusive to Australian men, I think

that might be…

SAM No, I don’t think so.

TONY It is in fact the motto of the Australian Men’s Shed, the

motto is shoulder to shoulder, which is a short version of

men don’t talk face to face, they talk shoulder to shoulder.

And in Men’s Shed it is very true, even if I can give you

the example of two guys working side by side and one

bloke will say to the other fellow, “hey I went to the doc

yesterday and I got the finger.” And the other bloke says

“oh dear, that’s a bit, you know.” “Oh no, no mate, he

checked my prostate and it’s good.” And that’s how you

find these guys start talking to one another, they’re not

talking face to face, they’re talking side by side and that

way the second guy says “oh maybe I should go and get a

check.” And it works.

KATE Why do you think Australian men find it difficult to talk?

TONY Probably because guys are like that. Women will get

together and talk, you’ve got Red Cross and you’ve got the

Country Women’s Association and a number of other

organisations, they will go there and they’ll just chat about

their medical problems and other problems, whereas guys

normally won’t do that.

KELLY So guys tend to have to be all strong, secure and not show

that weak side to admit to doing something or having an

issue or a concern or fear of something.

SIMON I think there’s a very subtle point you mentioned there tony

as well, that bit about not having eye contact. I can speak

to my friends about these things but I wouldn’t be looking

into their eyes, that would be just a bit, yeah it would feel a

little bit awkward. There was a little clue as well, I mean

Berrigan, a population of 1,000 people over a huge area,

you said mostly people retired from farming?

TONY Yeah, a lot of people retired from farming and other people

like myself have retired to the town because it’s a lovely

little country town, the people are exceptionally friendly,

and it’s a great place to live.

SIMON And presumably back to the sort of mental health, this is

about wellbeing, so people are having happier later years in

life and they’re talking about things rather than being

isolated and keeping it to themselves?

TONY That’s correct yeah, and guys seem to understand guys

than, I’m not knocking women, but men seem to

understand men better than women understand men. And

we get the guys come down there and when they come to

the shed they don’t have to work, we do work because we

have to pay rent on our building, but they don’t have to

work…

KATE So what do you do in it?

SIMON Hold up, hold up. Me, Tony and Kelly are getting on very

well here, because we haven’t got to have any eye contact

but we can just talk naturally.

KATE Without the women butting in.

SIMON Yes exactly, just give us a minute can you? ((laughs))

KELLY Our shed’s here.

KATE I want to know what you do in the shed. What do you do?

SIMON Men’s things.

KATE Yeah, but what is men’s things?

KELLY Wouldn’t you like to know?

SIMON Tony, what do we do in the shed.

TONY You want a run down? What sorts of things we do.

KATE Yes.

TONY Okay, we do community work, for example there’s a Red

Cross bin that they put clothes in, people put used clothes

in which was dilapidated, so we painted it and we did it up

for the Red Cross. We’ve donated money when we’ve

raised money, we’ve donated it to get a blanket warmer for

the local hospital because they didn’t have one. I don’t

know if you’ve ever been in hospital and had a cold

blanket put on you but it’s not very pleasant. We got

together with the local Lion’s Club and we put a

defibrillator in one of the local cafés because we were

going to put on in the Men’s Shed but because we’re only

open two half days a week it doesn’t really serve a lot of

purpose. So we put it in a local café which is the shop that

is open the longest in the town, remember it’s a very small

town. So we’ve sort of done that. Now that’s some of the

community work we do, we restore old furniture in our

shed, this is our shed, we’ve restored an old steam engine

which came out from England in 1905.

KATE Okay, so you do men’s things. You do men’s things in

your men’s shed.

SIMON I think this is great and the idea that…

KATE Course you do!

SIMON No, but you’re doing stuff for the community but as you

say you’re having very natural conversations. I suppose

one bit, how do you get people to join Tony, and when you

tell someone in the first place what sort of reaction do you

get?

TONY Okay. To get people to join it’s usually by word of mouth

or I advertise in, we have a local paper that comes out once

a month and I do an article in there every month but I

might put on the bottom, “ladies, is your man being a pest

around the house? Send him down to the Men’s Shed for

half a day. Give yourself a break.” And you would be

surprised how many women do pop in and just have a look

and then say, “yeah, I think I might get hubby to come

down.”

KATE I’d like to create a Men’s Shed for London and send off my

radio husband for half a day.

TONY Well let me you in on something here. In Australia we

have 987 sheds and about 40,000 members across

Australia.

SIMON I think it’s fabulous.

TONY In Ireland they have 300 plus sheds.

KATE Do they?

TONY In the UK you have 300 sheds.

SIMON Right. Yeah, I’m going down there.

TONY New Zealand has 80, Canada has four and the United

States has two but there’s a lot of interest so how about

that?

SIMON Kelly?

KATE We have 300 sheds?

SIMON Well actually you’ve hit on something Tony, I was going

to ask you Kelly, does the concept of sheds, I get the idea

of a man’s shed at the end of the garden, that’s where you

potter off to and do your stuff, is that the same in Canada?

KELLY You know what, I’ve not checked but yes, the shed you’re

referring to, definitely or of course in a garage is where

most people do the work, attached to their house or some

form. But I like this, this is really great.

KATE Well I’m going to research one for Simon because I think

you need a good trip to the Men’s Shed.

SIMON When I’m not doing the show I need something else to do

to keep me busy.

KATE Exactly, keep you busy.

SIMON Shoulder to shoulder. I’m loving it.

KATE Yeah. Chat about your problems.

TONY Yeah, bring your prostate with you and we’ll get that

checked for you as well.

SIMON Thanks for that Tony, not on the first visit, can you let me

come to a couple first? ((laughs))

KELLY Put on the glove and away.

TONY You just start to shiver when you hear the snapping of the

rubber gloves.

KELLY Right. Just look the other way.

KATE Well thank you so much everybody.

SIMON What a beautiful Christmas note to finish on as well.

KATE Yes, that was the perfect note to finish on. Now if you are

alone or in a low mood for whatever reason this Christmas

there are people out there who can help. There are many

helplines run by organisations like Silver Line, Cruise,

Mind, Samaritans, and many others just open all across the

holiday season. Google their numbers, email or join their

message boards, just depending on whatever can suit you

best but there’s lots of help out there. I mean even if it’s

just reading websites for tips, I mean I read one recently

that said it’s good to plan ahead and have things in your

diary, watch some films, like there’s loads of support so

please do look for it.

But I’m afraid that’s all we have time for this month and

we’ve got loads of people to thank for this international

edition of the Ouch talk show. You’ve heard the voices of

Holly Lane, Kelly MacDonald, Samantha Jenkinson, Tony

Taylor, Jo Russell and Mike Stockcan. Behind the scenes

were Elaine Falcone and Joe Lamanna at AMI Audio and

also Damian Rabbitt and Shaun at 720 ABC Perth. Thanks

as always to the Ouch team. That’s Emma Tracey, Beth

Rose, studio manager Neil Churchill and editor Mark

Perrow. The producer was Damon Rose and Ouch is a

production of BBC digital current affairs from

Broadcasting House in jolly old London.

SIMON Well done you, that was a long list. Don’t forget to get in

touch with us and tell us where you are and what you were

doing when you listened to this show. Email

ouch@bbc.co.uk, tweet @bbcouch or find us on Facebook.

We mentioned it earlier and now here it is. Set your brain

to Christmas mode with the song we’re playing out with.

KATE My brain’s always in Christmas mode.

SIMON Good point. It was written by 25 year old Jessica Taylor

from Rochester in Kent who created the tune and the lyrics

in her head when she was in hospital and unable to speak

due to ME.

KATE Not amputee-ism but severe ME.

SIMON That’s a very good point. It took her a total of five years to

get it out of her mind and into a recording studio with her

friend Elizabeth singing on the final version which you’re

about to hear.

KATE You can buy it in all the usual place online and the money

raised goes to support Jessica’s charity, Share a Star, which

designs and creates 3D stars for seriously ill children and

young people to give them some hope. So Merry

Christmas, happy holidays, here’s ‘Spread the Hope’.

Goodbye.

SIMON Bye-bye.

[music: ‘Spread the Hope’]