Gpo Nara Wspf Nixon Grand Jury Records 20

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1 MR. DAVIS: I t h ink we were in t roduced before .2 My name i s Richard Davis and with me i s Judy Denny. Th e3 area of inqui ry t h a t we a re going to focus on involves the4 i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t has been conducted r e l a t ing to an5 e ighteen and a h a l f minute gap , in a record ing o f a6 conversa t ion between your se l f and Mr. Haldeman on June 20,7 1972 8 According to your da i ly d i a r i e s which were made9 ava i lab le in connect ion with th e hear ings in f ron t o f

10 Judge Si r i c a , t h a t meeting took place approximately from11 11:25 a .m. to 12:45 p .m. , and in th e course o f asking12 , ques t ions it should be always assumed when I r e f e r t o t he13 June 20 Haldeman conversa t ion, it i s to t h a t conversa t ion.14 to which I am r e f e r r i n g .15 . To beg in , I wouldHi THE WITNESS: I f I could ask one ques t ion t h e r e . This17 i s j u s t fo r in fo rmat ion on ly . This matte r o f the e ighteen18 and a h a l f minute ~ a p I know Judge Si r i ca considered to be

h is di sh of te a and he had it a l l wiped around in open:!6 cour t . I s t h i s a mat te r t h a t the Grand Jury i s a l ready-21 f ami l ia r wi th , o r i s th e Grand Jury now inves t iga t ing i t ?22 I mean, it i s p e r f e c t l y a l l r i g h t , b u t I j u s t wanted to know23 because th e masses of mater ia l yo u sen t t o me, na tu ra l ly you24 d id n ' t send me any Grand Jury te s t imony because I have no25 \ more r i g h t to see it than any o t h e r c i t i z e n , but the mater ia l

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71 you sen t to me was a l l before Si r i ca in open cour t .2

HR. DAVIS: You should be advised t h a t i"n January , 3 be l ieve , January o f 1974, a t th e conclus ion of the hear ings4 in f r o n t o f Judge Si r i c a , Judge Si r i ca r e fe r red the ma t t e r5 fo r i nves t iga t ion by th e Grand Jury and th e Grand Jury has6 been inves t iga t ing the mat te r .7 THE WITNESS: And th e Grand Jury has heard the same8 witnesses t h a t Judge Sir ica had in open cour t .9 MR. DAVIS: Of course , I cannot descr ibe the exac t

10 witnesses . I th ink it should be sa fe ly assumed - -11 THE WITNESS: A ll r i g h t , a l l r i g h t , I have enough.12 . You have been i nves t iga t ing it. That ' s f ine . I j u s t want to13 be sure the Grand Jury has everything t h a t Judge Si r i ca14 has .1-5

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MR. DAVIS: We are hopeful they have more.I would l ike to begin by having marked as

E xhib i t No . B-1 which I w i l l show to you, a copy o f thesubpoena which wa s i ssued in Ju ly , 1973, by the Grand Juryreques t ing c e r t a i n t apes .

(The document r e fe r red to wasmarked Exhbit No . B- 1 fo r

", .'. 'i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

THE WITNESS: You are i n t e r es t ed in i tem I-A, i s t h a t23 cor rec t?24

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MR. DAVIS: That i s c o r r e c t , but j u s t as a genera lmat te r , did yo u a t the t ime th i s subpoena was served a t tempt


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to , .focus von the content o f the conversa t ions? I am n otasking fo r t he con ten t , I am j u s t asking whether youat tempted to focus o r de te rmine what had been sa id in th evar ious conversa t ions which are l i s t ed in th e subpoenawhich i s before you?

THE WITNESS: No , I d o n ' t r e c a l l having done so .I j u s t took a quick look a t th e magni tude of the subpoenaand, i nc iden ta l ly , a t t h i s po in t I should also say t h a t we,as you know, were con tes t ing th e process in cour t . You areta lk ing about a t the t ime it wa s de l ivered . We had noi n t en t ion o f , f r ank ly , c o m p l y ~ n g unless the cour t should sof ind and we thought maybe we could win in cour t , b ut wed i d n ' t .

MR. DAVIS: We are aware o f t ha t , an d b a s i c a l ly th eques t ion rea l ly i s j u s t as a pre l iminary mat te r to f ind ou twhether around the t ime th e subpoena t h a t wa s served youmade an e f f o r t e i t h e r through your own r eco l l ec t ion o r bychecking o ther mate r ia l s to l ea rn what wa s said in th evar ious conversa t ions r e fe r red to in the subpoena.

THE WITNESS: I f you are t a lk ing about th i s par t i cu l a rt ime, I d o n ' t r e c a l l focusing p a r t i c u l a r l y . I should po in tout , however, t h a t on the 4th of June t h a t , as you areaware , because it has been pub l ic ly t e s t i f i ed to , I under-s t and , I l i s t ened to the , what I t h ink were the Oval Off icetapes with Mr. Dean an d consequent ly if I saw the subpoena


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1 and sa w Dean's conversa t ion on it, I would have assumed2

t h a t I had heard it.3 There wa s one sec t ion , however, t h a t I d i d n ' t ,4 t h a t I have never l i s t ened to , and I hope I d o n ' t have to5 l i s t en to any more t apes . Any o f you who have gone through6 t h a t agony - - I hope yo u won' t have to e i t he r , p a r t i c u l a r ly7 th e EOB ones , b ut I d i dn ' t l i s t en to the June 21 one.8 I sa w Mr. Haldeman had notes on t h a t and I re l ied on h is9 no tes .10 BY MR. DAVIS:11 Q When you say June 21, yo u r e f e r to June 20 ?12 A No, I am so r ry , March 21. But I did n ot l i s t en13 a t t h a t t ime to t h i s t ape . That wa s n ot made ava i lab le toi4 me.1-5 Q "This t ape , " t h a t i s r e f e r r ing to the June 20thHi t ape .Ii

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A Th e one yo u are i n t e r es t ed in , yes . It i s I -A.MR. DAVIS: To have in f r o n t o f you, in case you

want to r e f e r to it in connect ion wi th the nex t fe wques t ions , I would l ike to mark as Exhibi t B- 2 what evidencehas ind ica ted are Mr. Haldeman's notes of h is conversa t ionwith you on June 20, which we are inqui r ing abou t .

BY MR. DAVIS:

(The document refer red to wa smarked Exhibi t No. B-2, fo riden t i f ica t ion . )


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1 Q I also w i l l tell yo u - -2 A I n c i d e n t a l l y , I would hope yo u would g e t a b e t t e r3 dupl i ca t ing machine. These a re very hard to read, th e ones4 you sen t out to me.5 Q I t h ink yo u a re probably aware th e problem weG faced making cop ies of cop ie s , which a re probably o r ig in a l -7 ly copied ten t imes over when we rece ived them.8 A I am not c r i t i c i z i ng them, bu t if th e Grand Jury9 would l i k e to see , even with g las ses it i s hard to read ,

10 p a r t i c u l a r l y when it i s somebody e l s e ' s wri t ing .11 Q Keeping in mind a lso t h a t t he r e i s a lso some12 evidence which i n d i c a t e s t h a t the meeting on June 20 b e tween13 yourse l f and Mr. Haldeman was the f i r s t f ace- to - face14 meeting between yourse l f and Mr. Haldeman which took place15 a f t e r the burgla ry i n to th e Democrat ic National Headquar t e r s]6 on June 17th - -Ii

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A No , no, an d I d o n ' t mean to i n t e r r u p t a ques t ion ,bu t I t h ink it i s very impor tan t to be sure t h a t aques t ion i s not based on assumption t h a t i s t o t a l l yi ncor r ec t . When you said t h i s was the f i r s t f a c e - t o ~ f a c e meeting I had with Mr. Haldeman, it was th e f i r s t meetingI may have had in the White House, bu t you see th e break - inoccurred when I was in Flor ida and I rode with Mr. Haldemanback from Flor ida and, the re fo re - - and my plane i s anof f i ce and I saw him on t h a t occas ion , t oo . I want to be


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1 sure the Grand Jur or s know I t a lked to him on seve r a l2

occas ions before June 20th.3 Q We s tand cor rec ted . Th e f i r s t meeting back in4 Washington then I t h ink would be more accura te in terms o f5 s ta t ing the ev idence .6 Well , th e reason I t h ink it i s impor tant , in7 terms of the ev iden t ia ry mat te r , i s t h a t the con ten t i s8 perhaps o f i n t e r e s t . I f t h i s i s th e f i r s t meet ing, it become9 ex t remely much more impor tan t . Well , I guess it i s

10 unimpor tan t in your i nves t iga t ion . You want to f ind ou t what11 happened with the t ape , so you can go ahead with your12 ques t ion .13 Q Do yo u now r e c a l l anything about what wa s sa id in14 the conversa t ion?15 A What wa s sa id in t h i s conversa t ion?Hi Q That i s r i g h t .17 A No, I do not .

- 18 Q Do you r e c a l l w h e . t h e ' J : " t the t ime > he .li igat iln "going on involving these tapes during the summer an d f a l l

00 of ' 73 , whether a t t h a t t ime you had a r eco l l ec t ion as to21 what was in th e conversa t ion which was ca l led fo r in t h a t22 subpoena?232425

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1 spec i f i c conversa t ion.

2 Q For examp l e , page 2 of the notes which have3 been 'marked as E xhib i t B-2 r e f e r to what i s our coun te r -4 a t t a c k , PR's offens ive to top th i s and o ther i tems t h a t5 you may see the re .6 Do you r e c a l l whether in th i s per iod t h a t7 sub jec t was being discussed by you and Mr. Haldeman?8 A Now when you say "dur ing th i s per iod , " l e t me9 qua l i fy it by saying t h a t I l ea rned about th i s in F lo r ida .

10 I saw Mr. Haldeman the re and we rode back on th e plane11 toge ther . I saw him on the plane , and o f course we discussed12 , t h i s to be t e r r i b l y wrong, and also in my op-inion , u t t e r ly13 s tupid ac t i v i t y , and from read ing h is notes I am sure a l l14 of these sub jec t s were di scussed , bu t as fa r as t he i r being15 discussed a t t h a t t ime , I have no r eco l l ec t ion whatever o fHi it being discussed a t t h a t t ime .17 I mean, fo r example, the bugging o f our own1-8 place, bh e EQB ' of f i ce and o t h e r of f i ces immediately came1!1 to my a t t e n t i o n .

Q And the re you are r e f e r r ing to th e note in

21 Exhibi t B- 2 which says be sure EOB of f i ces thoroughly

22checked re bugged a t a l l t imes , e t c e t e r a , i s t h a t cor rec t?

A Could t - - if I could tell you why it appears in23these no tes , because in 1962 when I wa s running fo r Governor ,24we had been bugged, we found l a t e r , by Governor Brown, a

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very good, persona l f r iend o f mine. I d o n ' t mean t h a t heprobably author ized it, but h is people bugged u s . We werewondering why everything wa s ge t t ing out and we f i n a l l y founda bug. In 1968, fo r example, we l ea rned t h a t not onlywa s Pr es iden t and Vice Pr es iden t Agnew's plane undersu rve i l l ance , and he h imsel f was under su rve i l l ance by th eFBI, but t h a t the FBI wa s a t one po in t d i rec ted to bug myplane . There are d i f f e r ing ve r s ions as to whether they dido r d id no t do it. Mr . Hoover once t o ld me t h a t they d id .But o ther s have indicated t h a t th i s wa s no t car r i ed ou t .

I want to po in t o u t t h a t s imply the f a c t t h a t th is tupid a c t occur red in Flor ida wa s no t the only reason t h a tI r a i s ed the problem of the bugging here because I knewt h a t it wa s a common prac t i ce by the o ther s ide and they wereexper ts a t it, and I have been bugged a t the congress iona l

campaign - - I mean th e guberna to r ia l campaign, even myplane poss ib ly , a t l e a s t ordered to be bugged th i s t ime bya Government agency, n ot by a campaign committee in 1968,and I consequent ly was very se n s i t i v e on the sub jec t .

Q Do you r e c a l l whether anything wa s sa id in th i sconversa t ion which r e l a t ed t o t he ro le o f anyone inapproving o r knowing about the break- in or e lec t ron icsu rve i l l ance p r i o r to June 17 , a p a r t from M e s ~ r s . Liddy,Hunt, McCord and th e four gentlemen from Miami?

A No, again yo u have made an assumption in your

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1 ques t ion t h a t I wi l l have to qua l i fy . You sa id d id I r e c a l l2 anything t h a t wa s said in th i s conversa t ion. I have a l ready3 said I do not r e c a l l t h i s conversa t ion a t a l l . I have no4 independent r eco l l ec t ion o f it.5 Q So i s it f a i r to say t h a t yo u d o n ' t r e c a l l6 whether anything in th i s conversa t ion touched on the sub jec t7 mat te r t h a t I j u s t refer red to?8 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l the conversa t ion a t a l l , as I have9 i n d i c a t e d .

10 Q Do you r e c a l l whether during the summer o f 1973,11 fol lowing the i s suance o f the subpoena and th e s t a r t o f12 . l i t i g a t i o n , you had any conversa t ion with Mr. Buzhardt o r13 General Haig as to why th e var ious i tems had been14 subpoenaed, and spec i f ica l ly why t .h is i tem had "bee,n15 subpoenaed?Hi A I d o r eca l l . I probably had conversa t ions17 wi th , p a r t i c u l a r ly Mr. Buzhardt , the counse l , as to the

purpose of the subpoena. I d o n ' t r e c a l l it independent ly1H though.

Q I am t a lk ing no t so much about the genera l21 purpose o f th e subpoena, but as to why the p a r t i c u l a r con-22 versa t ion t h a t we are ta lk ing about here , th e June 2023 conve r sa t ion , had been se lec ted as p a r t of the subpoena?24 A No , I r e c a l l no conversa t ion o f t h a t s o r t . As25 to why I would pick t h a t one o u t over something e l se , I d o n ' t

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1 know.2 Q Now as has been t e s t i f i ed in Judge S i r i c a ' s3 cour t and in those hea r ings , the week end o f September 294 Miss Woods began l i s ten ing to and t r anscr ib ing var ious5 t apes . Without focusing on the da tes s p e c i f i c a l l y , but j u s t6 focusing on whatever po in t she began t h a t pro jec t , before7 she began t h a t task , had you l i s t ened to the record ing8 of your meeting with Mr. Haldeman on June 20th?9 A I th ink rea l ly we can cu t shor t a lo t o f t ime,

10 and I unders tand t h a t you need to ask th e ques t ion severa l11 t imes to be sure I always answer it the same way, bu t you12 . sa id o r yo u have asked me now for the four th t ime have I13 l i s t ened to the recording o f June 20th . I to ld you tha t I14 did not l i s t en to the record ing o f June 20, and I r epea t i t15 aga in . I f you want to ask it aga in , we can go a l l dayHi on it.17 Q I be l ieve the e a r l i e r ques t ion wa s as to

whether you now r e c o l l e c t what was in the conversa t i on.19 A No . I d o n ' t mean to argue with counse l , because

having sometimes been on th e o ther s ide of the t ab le as21 a congressman, you do sometimes come back to the same22 ques t ion withou t in tending to be r e p e t i t i v e , but I am23 poin t ing ou t I have never heard t h i s conversa t ion t h a t you24 have a l luded to , th i s so -ca l led e ighteen and a ha l f minute25

HOOVERREPORTING CO, INC. .1320 Massachusetts Avenue , N.L IIIWashington, DC. 20002(202) 5466666

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811 conversa t ion which you have a l luded to , t h i s t ape . This2 t ape wa s not in my possess ion. I d i d n ' t have possess ion of3 it. It d i d n ' t come in to my possess ion before and I have4 never had it in my possess ion.5 The poin t i s t h a t - - l e t me say , when I t a lk6 about a t ape being in my possess ion, I have noted from the7 records here t h a t var ious people have i nd ica t ed t h a t among8 those who had access to the tapes was th e Pr e s iden t a t a l l9 t imes . What I am say ing i s to the b e s t o f my r eco l l ec t ion

10 I d i d n ' t even r e c a l l where they were kep t - - to the b e s t of11 my r eco l l ec t ion , unless they were obta ined by somebody e l s e12 , and brought to me fo r the purpose o f l i s t e n in g , I have no13 r eco l l ec t ion of ev e r having hea rd t h i s p a r t i c u l a r t ape t h a t14 you r e f e r t o . And in checking the record, I f ind t h a t , o r I15 should say my counse l , I guess , checked th e records - - IHi hope they have - - I f ind no ind ica t ion t h a t t h i s t ape was17 ever checked o u t to me.18 Q In your response you sa id unless someone took1!1 the tape and brought it to yo u to l i s t e n . I j u s t want toW cover t h a t base . Do you r e c a l l any s i tua t ion where21 somebody brought you the June 4- t ape to ' l i s .ten t.o?

A Oh, yes , June 4, as I to ld you.23 Q Focus ing on t h i s t ape24 A On t h i s t ape , no, I d o n ' t reca l l a t any t ime t h a t25 anybody brought t h i s tape to me to l i s t en t o . I d o n ' t

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r e c a l l it.Q At any po in t did yo u r ev iew, and genera l iz ing

th e t ime per iod now to perhaps save some t ime, d id yo ureview any persona l notes t h a t you might have had whichrefer red to what had taken place during th i s meeting? Doyou know if any such notes ex i s t ?

A No, I d o n ' t know. Not having reviewed them,obviously I wouldn ' t know whether any ex i s t ed .

Q But t h a t i s in te rms o f reviewing them r e c e n t ly ,and my ques t ion rea l ty goes to reviewing them in 1973 and1974, and I t ake it your answer would be t h a t you d o n ' tr eca l l reviewing any such no tes .

A Yes - - yo u _me9n persona l notes o t h e r than whatyou have put in evidence here?

Q That i s c o r r e c t .A No.Q Now do yo u r e c a l l whether o r not you gave Miss

Woods any i n s t ruc t ions as to what she should do inconnect ion wi th l i s ten ing to the tapes and making whateverkind of t r a n s c r ip t she could?

A Well , ac tua l ly I d i dn ' t ask her to make t r ans -c r i p t s . The purpose o f t h i s , as you may r eca l l , wa s t h a twe had decided t h a t we would t ry to work out a compromisewith the Spec ia l Prosecutor and with th e Senate Inves t iga t ingCommittee whereby Senator Stennis would agree to l i s t en to a l l iIi,

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831 of the tapes and then furnish any r e levan t mate r ia l with2 regard to Watergate to the people invo lved , and thereby3 pro tec t the pr inc ip le o f execut ive p r i v i l e g e . That4 compromise wa s agreed to by everybody concerned and5 e n t h u s i a s t i c a l l y suppor ted , i n c i d e n t a l l y , by Mr. Richardson,6 among o ther s . He l a t e r changed h is mind because Mr. Cox7

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di sagr eed , and you know the consequences t h a t fol lowedfrom t ha t .

So th e purpose of t h i s exerc i se wa s to g e t ,b a s i c a l l y , what I would re fe r to as the g i s t o f what wa s onthe tapes to see what par t s o f the tapes should be thoroughlythen t r anscr ibed , if they were r e l evan t , and t h a t wa s MissWoods' job t h a t I thought she would be able to do in tw oo r th ree days .

I must i nd ica te , i nc iden ta l ly , why ! . thoughtshe might be able to do it much FaSber '_than ' she -even tua l lyd id do it. I mentioned t h a t I l i s t ened to the tapes onJune 4 . I f yo u w i l l look a t t h a t list, you w i l l f ind t h a tthey were v i r t ua l l y a l l t apes with Mr. Dean in the OvalOf f i ce , and if you, Mr . Ruth, have l i s t ened to the t apes ,and yo u have , yo u w i l l note t h a t th e Oval Off ice tapes can beheard f a i r ly wel l . Also te lephone t apes can be heard wel l .Tapes in th e EOB of f i ce are v i r t ua l l y imposs ible to hearon occas ion, and i n f ac t I ques t ion some o f the EOB t r a n s -c r i p t s , not because by any de l ibe ra te in t en t on th e par t s of


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841 the ind iv idua l s prepar ing them but because they are2 imposs ible t o hea r , those t h a t some o f yo u w i l l be3 ques t ioning me on l a t e r today o r maybe tomorrow.4 But to corne to your ques t ion , yes , Miss Woods5 wa s directed to go to Camp David, where it would be q u i e t ,6 she would be away from the phones and we also wanted it to7 be done withou t a grea t dea l o f pub l i c i ty . Mr. Bul l was to8 go with h er and the purpose was to g e t the g i s t o f what were9 ca l l ed then th e nine subpoenaed conversa t ions .

10 Q To make sure I unders tand cor r ec t ly , a t th e poin t11 t h a t Miss ' Woods wa s given t h i s assignment , it wa s in12 . connect ion wi th prepar ing fo r the compromise t h a t you have13 refer red to?

A Yes, t h a t i s my r eco l l ec t ion , yes .Q Now, while you were

] ( i A Let me po in t out we h a d n ' t closed the dea l as17 fa r as th e compromise wa s concerned, but we thought t h a t

t h a t was the bes t way to proceed and we had to exp lo re t h a t1!1 as an op t ion , an d t h a t wa s why we were doing it.

Q Now you have refer red to Miss Woods going toCamp David to begin t h i s process , and I would l ike to turn

22 to t h a t per iod now b r i e f ly . Do you r e c a l l - - the records23 ind ica te t h a t it i s September 29.24

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A Yes, I unders tand . I have looked a t some o fthese logs t h a t you have prepared and in order to make your


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851 work e a s i e r , j u s t ask me about it and i f I d o n ' t I w i l l ask2 fo r it. So I apprec ia te your sugges t ion that '" he show it3 to me . A ll r i gh t , September 22 i s the d a t e .4 Q While a t Camp David, do you r e c a l l the inc iden t5 of your going over to the cabin where Miss Woods was6 l i s ten ing and working on the tapes?7 A Miss Woods had gone up e a r l i e r in the8 morning, had dr iven up. I had a very busy morning t ha t day,9 Chancel lor Brandt, an d a few o ther people , so I came up l a t e r

10 in the day and I wa s hopeful t h a t she had made some11 progress , an d I did go over from Aspen, I walked - - it i s12 , about a hundred f e e t over to Dogwood. Inc iden ta l ly , Dogwood131415Hi

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i s now famous because t h a t i s where Mr. Breschnev s tayed.Aspen, of course , i s the Pres iden t i a l cabin . I walked overto Dogwood where Miss Woods and Mr. Bull were an d walkedin to th e cabin and asked her how are you coming along.

She had been the re th ree o r four hours , becauseI was the re - - I d o n ' t know - - mid-afternoon a t some t ime.

MR. DAVIS: I f yo u l i k e , we can mark as Exhibi t B-3a copy of your da i ly diary fo r t h a t da te , which I th ink wesugges ted t h a t your counsel review with yo u before t h i stes t imony. But why d o n ' t we have it now in f ron t of youbecause you would l ike to r e f e r to it.

(The document refer red to wa smarked Exhibi t No. B-3fo r iden t i f ica t ion . )


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1 THE WITNESS: My counsel furnished yo u th i s?2 MR. DAVIS: I th ink t h i s was furnished in 1973 in3 connect ion wi th the t apes hear ings and we furnished it back,4 in essence , suggest ing t h a t it would be r e levan t to th i s5 i nves t iga t ion .6 THE WITNESS: Inc iden ta l ly , I know we c a n ' t go o ff7 the record, so d o n ' t t ake t h i s down, p lease . Please d o n ' t8 l e t it ou t t h a t I sa w Senator Percy. Goldwater would be9 r i g h t down my th roa t .101112 ,13

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Now we are back on the record. I rea l ize wec a n ' t go on and of f , bu t you have to have a little lift ou to f l i f e here . I wa s amazed t h a t I had seen him t ha t day.So was he amazed.

A ll r i g h t , I have the d ia ry .Q Do you r e c a l l whether o r not you l i s t ened to w h a t

ever tape Miss Woods was working on a t t h a t t ime?A Well , when I walked in she sa id , as I

r eca l l , t h a t she was having a t e r r ib l e t ime ge t t ing it of f .Sh e d i d n ' t know how she could poss ibly f in i sh t h i s work, andshe had only th ree o r four pages , as I reca l l - - I c a n ' tsay, it could have been e igh t o r ten - - but th ree of f ourpages of notes she had typed ou t . She sa id , you shou ldl i s t en to th i s th ing and yo u w i l l see what I mean. So I pu tthe earphone on and I l i s t ened to the tape and she, shewas - - I l i s tened to it the day before , I imagine, tw o or th ree


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1/

871 minutes and I could see the problem. I d o n ' t r e c a l l o r2 have any r eco l l ec t ion whatever what I heard . I j u s t r e c a l l3 t h a t the t ape wa s o f extraordinary bad q u a l i t y , you cou ldn ' t4 t e l l whether one person o r two o r th ree might be t a lk ing a t56789

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t imes . There were no ises , ou t s ide no ises , in s ide noises an dI j u s t shook my head, and I sa id , wel l , do th e b e s t you canand l e t me know a t th e end of the day how you are ge t t inga long .

Q Do you r e c a l l anything e l se about t ha t , yourv i s i t with Miss Woods over a t the cabin , o ther than what youhave j u s t t e s t i f i ed to?

A Well , assuming tha t the lo g i s r i gh t ,obviously I am r e f resh ing my r eco l l ec t ion here - - assumingthe log was r i g h t , how long was I the re - - seven minutesI t h ink t h a t the conversa t ion d e a l t only with t h a t , with theproblem she wa s having in get t ing it done. That i s a l l t h a tI can r eca l l .

Q Now in these ear ly s t ages when Miss Woods wa sbeginning t h i s process and before any conversa t ion MissWoods may have had with you about any e r a sur e she may havemade of a por t ion o f any tape

A I j u s t d o n ' t l ike tha t word, but go ahead.Q - - do you r e c a l l any conversa t ion, o t h e r

conversa t ions you had with he r about th e t apes and, fo rexample, the dia ry shows on September 29 t h a t you met with


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881 he r on o ther occas ions , but j u s t genera l ly do you r eca l l2

any o ther conversa t ions?3 A Well , o f course a t th i s t ime - - wel l , while her4 primary re spons ib i l i t i e s were t apes , she a l so had o t h e r5 r e s p o n s ib i l i t i e s as wel l . She came over t o d inne r , as you6 note . I had he r over e a r l i e r to see what she had produced7 up to t h a t t ime, an d it was very little. I could see t h a t8 th e problem wa s very, very d i f f i c u l t . At some t ime in t h a t9 day she to ld me, and I c a n ' t f ix the t ime - - I d o n ' t

10 r e c a l l it spec i f ica l ly - - she sa id , thank God I only have to11 do about an hour of th i s r a the r than, you know, the whole12 , day, because she apparent ly had, she s a i d , rece ived a c a l l13 from Washington - - I d o n ' t th ink she to ld me who it wa s

from t h a t only the Ehrlichman por t ion of the tape or the15 por t ion where Ehrlichman - - the por t ion in which Ehrlichman

- Hj wa s presen t wa s subpoenaed and t h a t , from reading th e log ,you g ot the impress ion it wa s a little shor te r than she

18 a n t i c i p a t e d otherwise .1!l Q Have you previous ly discussed t h a t ques t ion withW Genera l Haig o r Mr. Buzhardt?n A I have no r eco l l ec t ion of discuss ing it22 pr ev ious ly . I t i s poss ib l e we could have discussed it2324

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pr ev ious ly , as to how much of t h a t was, but I d o n ' t know howit would have come up. Apparent ly , I note from th e mater ia l st h a t your of f i ce has fu rn i shed to my counse l , Genera l Haig


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1 i n i t i a t ed a c a l l to Miss Woods and said Cox has made a2

mistake on the subpoena and on Item No. I you need only t ha t3 por t ion of the conversa t ion in which Ehrlichman i s presen t ,4 and she apparent ly had typed it of f . Sh e to ld me about5 t h a t a t some t ime when we were there over th e week end,6 t ha t t h a t i s a l l she had to do.7 Q But pr io r to t h a t t ime yo u d o n ' t r e c a l l your8 having any conversa t ion with Genera l Haig or Mr.Buzhardt9 about what wa s included within the i tem?10 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I might have had, bu t I d o n ' t11 r e c a l l the conversa t ion.12 MR. DAVIS: I am going to ask tha t th i s be marked as13 E xhib i t No. B-4.14 (The document refer red to was15 marked Exhibi t No. B-4,-Hi fo r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )17 THE WITNESS: There wa s a discuss ion a t some t ime, and

I d o n ' t know when it occur red, but my r eco l l ec t ion i s it.I wa s a t th i s t ime, t h a t it wa s a. s lopp i ly drawn subpoena.

This i s no re f lec t ion on you, because t h i s th ing had beengoing on so long t h a t probably yo u were still in high school

22 a t the t ime.23 MR. DAVIS: I wish t h a t were t rue .24 THE WITNESS: Certain ly yo u were . So in any event ,25 t h a t was a s lopp i ly drawn subpoena, but my bes t r eco l l ec t ion

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901 i s t h a t occur red a f t e r I l ea rned from Miss Woods t h a t Haig2 had ca l l ed her and said Cox has said you have to only do3 th i s p a r t o r t h a t yo u only have to do the p a r t in which4 Ehrlichman i s t a lk ing .5 BY MR. DAVIS:6 Q Refer r ing you to the f ron t page, the re i s some7 ev idence t h a t t h a t i s a no ta t ion made by probably Mr. Bull8 some t ime during the week en d a t Camp David. I am going to9 d i r e c t your a t t en t ion to the por t ion which say s , "Haldeman"

10 paren , ' a f t e r Dash, ~ t " and poss ib ly says , to be f a i r ,11 "RN' s r eques t . "12 . My ques t ion i s , do you r e c a l l ever making any13 spec i f i c r eques t o f Miss Eoods or to Mr. Bul l t h a t the Haldem n14 por t ion be l i s t ened to and summarized by Miss Woods?-15 A No, I have no r eco l l ec t ion o f t ha t . On the- Hi con t ra ry , I wa s very anxious fo r h er to g e t th e job done and17 I wanted her to do j u s t as much as wa s r equ i red , bu t no

more, and to l i s t en to no more than was subpoenaed. Il ~ ! d o n ' t know what t h a t meant. I don ' t r e c a l l it. I t does

not r e f r esh any r eco l l ec t ion o f mine.21

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Q Did Miss Woods r e p o r t to yo u o r give yo u anyind ica t ion a t any t ime, r ea l l y , as to what was the contento f any por t ion of your conversa t ion with Mr. Haldeman onJune 20th?

A That i s a very genera l ques t ion. Did she a t an y


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911 t ime ever t e l l me what wa s the con ten t of the conversa-2 t ion?3 Q with Mr.Haldeman?4 A The only th ing t h a t Miss Woods ever to ld me5 about the conversa t ion with Mr . Haldeman wa s about thoseG por t ions t h a t ex is ted and t h a t she had l i s t ened to . She7 sa id , apparent ly , something about schedul ing , e t c e t e r a .8 Q I s the conversa t ion t h a t you are re fe r r ing to

9 e s s e n t i a l l y the one which took place when Miss Woods re por ted10 to yo u th e buzz which ex i s ted on the tape?11 A Yes, I th ink - - w e l l , she d i dn ' t t e l l me about12 , it a t Camp David because she hadn ' t reached t h a t po in t . I13 know t ha t she d id not br ing me over , as wa s the prac t ice , as14 she f in i shed anyone of the t apes she would br ing me over15 what she had done. While she was a t Camp David, the reason

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she would come over , I would j u s t t e l l her , wel l , br ingwhat you have go t , because I wanted to see how long thep r o j e c t i s going to take, b ut when she came in , I th ink th et r a n s c r ip t shows t h a t t h a t was on Monday, October 1 , i s t h a tcor rec t?

Q That i s cor r ec t .A You are asking about t ha t conversat ion?Q I wa s asking more genera l l y and was in tendin g to

ge t to the October 1 conversa t ion in a fe w moments.Yes. Well , yo u have asked a genera l ques t ion.


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921 Q That i s r i g h t .2 A Well , l e t me g e t to a spec i f i c answer then.3 With regard to th e t ime when the Haldeman por t ion o f th e4 conversa t ion became an i ssue, the f i r s t t ime it became an5 issue wa s on October 1 . While I wa s a t Camp David, I have6 no r eco l l ec t ion whatever of hear ing even Haldeman's voice .7 Inc iden ta l ly , I wouldn ' t swear it was Ehrl ichman 's e i t he r .8 It did tu rn o u t to be, from the content t h e r e a f t e r , and a t9 t imes I wonder what I had had to dr ink t h a t day when I

10 heard my own vo ice . This i s such a bad t ape .11 Th e Grand Jury should be rewarded by l e t t i ng them12 l i s t en to it. B u ~ in any event , it wa s i nc red ib le , but Miss13 Woods came in in the af te rnoon of the f i r s t o f October and14 she was very d i s t r augh t . She t o ld me t h a t she had made some15 kind o f a mis take . Sh e did not descr ibe it. I sa id , whatHi kind of a mistake? Where wa s i t ?17 Sh e sa id , we l l , she sa id , I wa s t r y ing to f ind

if Ehrlichman was still around an d I was l i s ten ing to1 ~ 1 Haldeman, and she did not go in to any de t a i l s . As yo u w i l l2Q note from t he log , the conversa t ion was very br i e f . And I

sa id , are you sure you were j u s t l i s t en ing to Haldeman,22 an d she sa id , yes . Sh e sa i d , the re was some kind of d iscus s io23 about schedul ing , an d she did mention something about Ely,

24 1heard a buzz . And I sa id , wel l , if it was j u s t th eNevada, which rang a b e l l with me, and then she sa id , I

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Haldeman th ing, there i s nothing to be worr ied about , fo rge tit, because it i s no t subpoenaed.

I s a i d , as fa r as the Ehrl ichman p a r t , youf in ished a l l of t h a t , which she had, and she sa i d , "Yes, a l lo f t h a t i s done," and I s a i d , "That i s what they want .As fa r as th i s p a r t , any mistake t h a t has been made, the rei s no problem.

Q Did she ind ica te to you the length o f the buzz?A Sh e sa id it was very br i e f , very br i e f .Q Did she go in to an y kind o f de t a i l as to what had

caused th e buzz?A No .Q Or what she thought might have caused the buzz?A No. Hy r eco l l ec t ion here i s t h a t , only t h a t she

said f i r s t , t h a t she was d i s t r augh t ; second, t h a t the re wa.some , t ha t she made some re fe rence to get t ing a te lephone ca l l .

Q But you d i dn ' t ask h er how it happened?A I know very little about such machinery, even

though I had opera ted one a t Newport , but , never the les s , I wamore i n t e r es t ed in whether or no t , f rankly , ev iden t ia rysubpoenaed mater ia l s were invo lved .

( Individua l en te r s room and s t a t ed as fol lows: )" I t i s important, s i r , we have to do i t . "THE WITNESS: I s t h i s going t.O help you. This i s a


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941 an t i - coagu lan t .2

I th ink it should be recorded , I am taking3 an t i - coagu lan t s ordered by the doc tors every day a t twelve4 o 'c lock . That means t h a t if I am ever in an acc iden t and5 s t a r t to bleed I w i l l bleed to death unless the doc tor i s6 the re within ten minutes .7 Want one?8 A ll r i g h t , on the record.9 BY MR. DAVIS:

10 Q Do you r eca l l , a f t e r Miss Woods made t h i s r e p o r t11 to you, and perhaps you would l ike to have in f ron t of you12 th e copy of the da i ly d ia ry fo r October 1, which i s marked13 as B-5.14 Q I th ink I have it, October 1 .15 MR. DAVIS: I th ink yo u have September 29. We w i l l-Hi mark as B-5 the one of October 31, which I again should17 s t a t e for the record . wa s suppl ied in Ju ly , 1973, inJ.8 connect ion with th e l i t i g a t i o n .II I (The document r e f e r r ed to was

marked Exhibi t No. B-5,fo r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

22 THE WITNESS: That ' s a l l r i g h t . I know yo u wouldn ' t ,23 I mean, su r rep t i t ious ly ge t them ou t . That i s only done by24 \25 1

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people t h a t a r e n ' t e i the r in the Spec ia l Prosecu to r ' so f f i c e o r my of f i ce - - maybe n ot even in Mr. M il l e r ' s


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951 of f i ce .2 NOw, what i s your ques t ion about th i s par t icu la r3 mat ter?4 BY MR. DAVIS:5 Q It i s j u s t to pu t t h a t in f ron t o f ' you, and I am6 going to ask whether yo u r e c a l l a f t e r Miss Woods made t h i s7 repor t to you, do yo u r e c a l l what you did in connect ion with8 t h a t r epor t to con tac t Mr. Ziegler , Mr. Buzhardt o r

9 General Haig in any connection?10 A No, as fa r as Mr. Ziegler was concerned, I did no11 t a lk to hi m about it a t a l l .12 . Mr. Ziegler , an d here I have to speculate in13 answering because I not iced I reques ted t h a t he come over14 i s t ha t he would come over a f t e r his dai ly br ie f ing . He15 also had an appointment every day to give me a r epor t on the -

br ie f ing . There was no discuss ion a t a l l with him. I also

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not iced I ta lked to Mr. Rebozo. I most ce r ta in ly d i dn ' t t a lkto hi m about t ha t . But we go in to t h a t t h i s af te rnoon, wha twe t a lk about , and then it notes t h a t I t a lked with Mr.Haig.

Now I would say t h a t th i s would indicate t h a t Idid not have a grea t dea l o f concern about what Miss Woodshad done, but in the meeting with Mr. Haig I mentioned to himthe f ac t t h a t Miss Woods was having a t e r r i b l e t ime with thetapes and t h a t she j u s t had made what she cal led a mistake


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1 on a por t ion of the Haldeman th ing , and he r eca l l ed c l e a r l y2 t h a t he had had, apparent ly based on a conversa t ion he had3 with Mr . Buzhard t , informed Miss Woods on the 29th o r4 28th - - whenever she went to Camp David - - t h a t th e5 Haldeman por t ion o f the t ape was no t subpoenaed, so he s a i d ,6 no problem.7 Q During t h i s pe r iod , do you r e c a l l , and I would8 say t h i s would be p r i o r t o t he change o f p o s i t i o n when it wa s9 was decided t h a t th e June 20th Haldeman conversa t ion was

10 included wi th in th e subpoena, p r i o r to t h a t t aking place11 do you r e c a l l whether yo u had any conversa t ion wi th Mr .12 . Buzhardt about what Miss Woods had repor ted to you?13 A Well , I d o n ' t r e c a l l sp e c i f i c a l l y a conversa t ion14 with Mr . Buzhard t , bu t I would say t h a t Mr . Haig, General15 Haig, would c e r t a i n l y not have to ld Miss Woods t h a t a cer t a in

- ]( i por t ion o f the t ape was n ot subpoenaed unless he consul ted-17 with Mr . Buzhard t , and it i s very poss ib l e t h a t I t a lked18 with Buzhardt about it, t oo , bu t I c a n ' t independent ly

r e c a l l it a t t h i s t ime.Q On October 31, 1973, hear ings began before

Judge Si r i ca regard ing the repor ted non-ex i s tence o f tw o22 o ther subpoenaed t apes and Miss Woods t e s t i f i ed in those23 hear ings on November 8. Do you r e c a l l whether you had any24 I conversa t ions with he r about t h i s t ime which r e l a t ed to her25 Ii tes t imony in th e sen se of r e l a t i n g to any problem t h a t t h i s

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1 accident might - -2 A This is her f i r s t appearance?3 Q This is her f i r s t appearance, yes , s i r .4 A Before answering t h a t ques t ion , f o r the be ne f i t5 of the members of the Grand Jury , s ince they w i l l be seeing6 t h i s log - - I mean if I were in your po s i t i o n , and I am sure7 you have thought of t h i s , what in the world was I spending8 t h a t much t ime with Haig for . I spent twenty minutes with9 him, and then I apparent ly - - we spent over an hour and a

10 ha l f in the ca r . I mean , the presumption, if I were11 ques t ioning, f rankly - - I am n ot t ry ing to help you do a job12 . on anybody, but my po in t i s you want the t r u t h , and we were13 having very, very long discuss ions ,and th i s may ex p la i n one14 - of the reasons Haig d i d n ' t ge t the re any sooner than he-15 d id , bu t t h a t i s when we had the Agnew c r i s i s , and IJ( i remember t h a t long dr ive in the count ry . That i s when weIi decided t h a t Mr . Agnew had to go then. He d i d n ' t go then,A.S but he went l a t e r .

I know what t h a t conversa t ion wa s about , b ut Ij u s t wanted yo u to know it wasn ' t about th i s th ing . Nei therHaig nor I thought it was a problem a t a l l , based on the fac t

22 tha t it wa s not subpoenaed, and we thought , too , it wa s

23 j u s t a t echn ica l mat te r , and we were thankful it hadn ' t

24 happened on something t h a t had been subpoenaed.Q To move to Miss Woods, when she t e s t i f i e d a t the25

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981 f i r s t se t of hearings, do you recal l whether you had any2 conversations with Miss woods about her testimony?3 A No, I don ' t recal l that I ta lked to her about4 her testimony.5 We ha d a practice in our off ice , and I think it6 i s probably the practice in most Pres ident ' s of f ices - - I

-.< 7 hope it i s - - it i s even now, and it was a pract ice in the8 Eisenhower adminis t rat ion I know - - the President ha s got9 so many, many very, very important things to do - - I mean,

10 I am not t rying to build up myself, but a l l Presidents have -11 tha t wherever possible you don ' t ra ise matters with him that12 . are going to diver t him from the job he was elected to do.13 For example, you take Mr. Bull . I was ra ther14 shocked to learn., when he l e f t - - Mr. Bull , who i s no15 target of th is inves t igat ion, incidental ly , as I understand1 jj Q I must say that we c a n ' ~ o b v i o u s l ~ respond ton tha t ..18 A I know you can ' t but you wouldn' t be committed1!l to it in any event , but he shouldn ' t be, I am sure, because:!O I have known him a long time, Mr. Bull , who s i t s r ight2t. outside my off ice and Miss Woods' off ice i s down the hal l a22 ways, and he hadILP--____________O I_A_(b )_6_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _~ ~ i n at torney 's23 fees when he l e f t Government.24 I said , how come? He said , because I have had25 to go down and test i fy so much.

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1 I sa id , I d id n ' t know you were down t h e r e . I

2 mean, I d i d n ' t know you were down the re t h a t much. I knew3 he had been down, b u t he never came in to t a lk to me about4 h is tes t imony; he never came in to bother me about h is5 t es t imony , or to ask me about it, and Miss Woods, above a l l ,6 fol lowed t h a t p r a c t i c e , because she had been with me fo r twen y7 seven year s , and she knew t h a t I had - - it i s probably one8 of the weaknesses , but it i s one o f the weaknesses I have and9 it i s a s t r eng th in ano ther way, I am qu i te s i n g l e -

10 minded. Some people can play cards an d l i s t en to t e l e v i s i o n11 an d have a conversa t ion a t one t ime. I c a n ' t . I do one12 ' th ing a t a t ime, and in th e of f i ce of the Pres idency I d id13 the b ig t h ings and did them reasonably wel l and screwed up on-l4 the little th ings , par t ly because th e s t a f f d id n ' t br ing15 them to me .Hi They d i d n ' t t h ink it was big e i t h e r . But I have17 t aken too long to answer the ques t ion . What I am going to say18 i s , no, I d i d n ' t di scuss Miss Woods conversa t ion with he r .19 I have no r eco l l ec t ion of a di scuss ion with he r as to how she

should t e s t i f y , what she would do. I knew she was worr iedabout it. I knew she was going down, bu t - -

22 Q Do you r e c a l l any conversa t i ons with Mr.

23 Buzhardt o r General Haig in connect ion with how Miss Woods

24 might respond to ques t ions dur ing t h i s f i r s t hear ing which

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1001 repor ted to you?2 A Assuming it was a c c i d e n t a l , r i g h t .3 You see , I am help ing you now.4 Q Do you r e c a l l any such conversa t ion with Mr.5 Haig o r with Mr. Buzhardt?6 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l a conversa t ion. One could have7 o ccu r r ed . I d o n ' t r e c a l l any. And I emphasize again t h a t8 the r eason t h a t I d o n ' t - - I th ink my r eco l l ec t ion in t h i s9 in s tance , which,of cour se , i s j u s t pure r eco l l ec t ion , i s10 cor r ec t , because I d o n ' t have access to any notes o r11 anyth ing o f t h a t s o r t in t h i s pe r iod , because I d i d n ' t12 , consider it a problem. Haig d i d n ' t consider it a problem.13 Buzhardt d i d n ' t consider it a problem t h a t t ime, and I d o n ' t14 be l ieve , fo r t h a t reason , t h a t they would have brought it upN to me around t h a t per iod o f t ime, October 1 , 1973, when weHi had some pre t ty rugged problems.17IS.Hl

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Q Now with th e excep t ion o f some i so la t ed t imes whenMr . Bul l had the t ape , the June 20th t ape , l a rge ly fo rpurposes o f t r anspor t ing it, the ev idence ind ica tes genera l lyt h a t between September 29, 1973, and November 13, 1973,when a l l th e o r i g i n a l t apes Miss Woods had were re turned toGeneral Bennet t , t h a t t h i s t ape t h a t we have been t a lk ingabout was in her custody. Do you r e c a l l whether during t h a ten t i re t ime per iod you ever went in to Miss Woods' o f f i c ewhen she was working on t h i s t ape , apar t from yo u t a lked abou t


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1011 the Camp David incident?2 A No, I have no r eco l l ec t ion o f t ha t .3 Let me point out t h a t a t the t ime we had our4 conversa t ion on October 1 , she was f in ished with th i s t ape .5 She was f in i shed with the October 1 s t t ape .6 I am so r ry , with the June 20th t ape on October7 f i r s t , and I only say t ha t , bu t in d i r ec t response to your8 ques t ion, the answer i s I had no reason to go in to her9 o f f i c e . I would have her come in to mine i f I f e l t there was10 something to be done.11 Q Now during t h i s per iod she worked on these12 . t apes in Key Biscayne a l so , and I mean to inc lude t h a t in the13 fol lowing ques t ion:14 Do you r e c a l l ever being presen t when Miss Woods

was working on the t apes a t a l l , apar t from the September 29v i s i t to Dogwood cabin?

17 A So t h a t you can ge t the geographical s i t u a t i o n inmind, my house a t Key Biscayne i s over a t the bay. The ho te l

19 where the s t a f f s tays i s over on the seas ide, about t womiles away. I never v is i ted on th i s t r i p . 'While I have beento th e ho te l on o ther occas ions , on t h i s t r i p I never wentto Miss Woods' quar t e r s , where she s t ayed , Genera l Haig,22Bull , the Secret Service , and the r e s t .23

Q My ques t ion was a little broader . I was24inc luding t ha t , but in te rms of t ha t en t i re per iod , whether25

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1 it was Key Biscayne o r a t the White House o r the EOB, were2

you ever presen t on any o ther occas ion, a p a r t from th e Camp3 David exper ience , when Miss Woods wa s ac tua l ly working on4 the tapes?5 A On the t apes?

Q On the nine tapes?67 A Or th i s tape?8 Q Th e t apes genera l ly?9 A The t apes genera l ly . Being in her of f i ce when

10 she was typing them o f f , you mean, o r something l i ke tha t?11 Q Well , when she had th e tapes out and wa s l i s t e n -12 ing o r typing?13 A I d o n ' t have any r eco l l ec t ion . Not in Flor ida ,14 c e r t a in ly , because the tapes were always over the re in h er15 apartment . They were never brought over to me, and as fa r- Hi as her of f ice in Washington i s conce rned , when she re turnedn from Flor ida , I have no r eco l l ec t ion of walking in to look

a t the tape process because I , f r ank ly , wanted her to ge t t hejob done and I d i d n ' t t h ink we ought to bother her .

Q Do you r e c a l l genera l ly what the f i r s t awarenessyou had was tha t the re wa s a buzzing sound or o ther kind o f

22 gap o f grea te r dimensions than wa s repor ted to yo u by Miss23 Woods in the e a r l i e r conversa t ion?24 A Here I am t e s t i fy ing b e c a u s ~ as fa r as t he da t e25 i s concerned, on th e bas i s o f having my memory re f reshed

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1 from th e documents t h a t you have furnished to me, I know' 2 t h a t I was informed of it, o f course , as f a r as the da te i s3 concerned. It was in th e middle o f October .4 Q I would sugges t t h a t it was, in terms of the5 documents we have produced to you, t h a t the re i s t e s t imony6 t h a t it was in th e middle of November.7 A You a r e exac t ly r i g h t , the middle of November.8 I appr ec i a t e your cor rec t ing me, because it shows you ho w9 you can s l i p back and fo r th . It was th e middle o f

10 November. It was a f t e r Miss Woods had t e s t i f i ed fo r th e f i r s11 t ime before th e Grand Jury - - I mean, before Mr. S i r i c a ,12 who was even tougher than th e Grand Jur y , bu t anyway13 Q Do you r e c a l l how it wa s brought to your-14 a t t en t ion o r who brought it to your a t ten t ion?15 A Who - -

-Hi Q Do you r e c a l l who brought to your a t t en t ion the17 f ac t t h a t the re was a gap o f l a rge r dimension than Miss Woodsi .-a had repor ted?H A General Haig. General Haig. My r eco l l ec t ion i s2(l c l e a r on t h a t . I d o n ' t r e c a l l which of f i ce I was in , b u t

.21 he came in and said t h a t , you know, about t h i s t ape , t h a t

22 we f ind t h a t - - I mean, Rose had thought i t- . was ;. four minutes , o

23 something l i ke t h a t , or the r e had been some di scuss ion ,

24 which was very br i e f , and now the counse l have found t h a t iti s e ighteen and a ha l f minutes , and I prac t ica l ly blew my25

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1 s tack , and I sa id , why, what business has counsel got ten2 to t h i s . This t ape she wa s to ld was no t subpoenaed; they3 changed t he i r minds, and he sa i d , wel l , I guess they have.4 I sa i d , wel l , let's t ake ano ther look then. I sa id , we have5 done enough to damage th e Pres idency a l ready by agree ing to6 turn over conf iden t i a l informat ion, and I am no t going to7 turn over anything t h a t i s no t absolutely requi red by th e8 subpoena.9 I a l so , f rankly , t o ld Buzhardt t h a t when I t a lked

10 to him about it, t h a t I sa id I want an absolute check to make11 sure t h a t we weren ' t discuss ing a non-subpoenaed t ape .12 . Q And d id Mr . Buzhardt give you t h a t assurance ,13 o r do you r e c a l l anything fu r the r about the conversa t ion wi th14 Mr . Buzhardt?

A No, I don ' t r e c a l l . Over those days , you w i l l].(i note from th e logs , I wa s t r ave l ing some. In November,11

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and t h a t was another r a the r in te res t ing pe r iod , too, theper iod yo u remember o f the conf i rmat ion of Mr. Ford wa s onmy mind, an d so fo r th , but in any even t Mr. Buzhardt , toshorthand it, only said t h a t t a lk ing with the o t h e r l awyers ,Garment and a l l , t h a t they agreed t h a t desp i te the f a c t t h a tit wa s a s lopp i ly drawn subpoena, t h a t ac tua l ly the Haldemanpor t ion o f the conversa t ion, as wel l as th e Ehrlichmanpor t ion , was subpoenaed.

Now when I was to ld t h a t f i n a l l y - - I t h ink


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1051 however , my r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t it occurred j u s t a f t e r I2 had addressed the Governors ' Conference. I f you w i l l check3 th e logs an d p u l l o u t the da tes , I would appr ec i a t e it, b ut4 I addressed th e Governors ' Conference in Kansas Ci ty , I5 th ink it was, and one o f the governors asked me i s the re any6 o ther bombshel l going to come.7 I sa id I d i d n ' t th ink so . I wa s aware a t t h a t8 t ime of t h i s e ighteen and a h a l f minute th ing , but I wa s

9still not convinced t h a t , and had still not made up my mind

10 t h a t it wa s subpoenaed, so under the circumstance I said I11 hope not .

12 Then a f t e r th e Governors ' Conference, Haig sa id13 he had a c a l l and t h a t , f i r s t , it wa s subpoenaed; second,14 t h a t as f a r as the t ape . was concerned t h a t they thought t h i s15 ough t to be di sc losed to Judge S i r i c a , and, t h i r d , t h a t , and

a l l of these things occurred t h e r e , and when we g ot back tothe White House where the re wa s a fu r the r di scuss ion abou t17it t h a t evening; t h i r d , t h a t it could not be r econs t r uc t edbecause t h a t wa s ano ther po in t t h a t I made, even though ,.itwas a nOh-subpoenaed t ape , I sa id , see if you can r econs t ruc tit and see if we can f ind any notes as to what wa s on it .21And a l l they were able to do - - they cou ldn ' t r econs t ruc t22it - - they found it wa s subpoenaed an d they found Haldeman's23note s , t he se r a t h e r benign note s , and as to what i s on them24as f a r as anything t h a t the Spec ia l Prosecu tor i s i n t e r es t ed

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1 Q And in terms of the por t ions o f the conversa t ion2

in which you reques ted a determinat ion as to whether it3 could be recons t ruc ted o r whether notes could be loca ted ,4 was t h a t pa r t of the i n i t i a l d i scuss ions on the day t h a t you5 f i r s t l ea rned t h a t it might be a subpoenaed tape?6 A I d o n ' t know which date it occur red. It was7 dur ing the whole pe r iod . You know how t he se th ings a r e . I8 c a n ' t say t h a t on th e i n i t i a l day I sa id , gee, go back and9 see if you can r econs t ruc t it.

10 Q We a re only asking i f you do have the r e c o l l e c t i on11 We unders tand th e problem.12 A Yes, you unders tand , b u t a l l I can tell you i s13 over a l l o f t h a t t ime per iod a l l of these th ings were:i4 discussed and I wouldn ' t a f f i r m or deny what somebody e l s e-15 sa id with regard to whether ; they t a lked to me on th e 14th

and I sa i d , wel l , maybe it was the 16th , I j u s t d o n ' t17 r e c a l l . I do r e c a l l a l l o f them were discussed wi th me and

most ly a t my i n i t i a t i v e .Q Did General Haig o r Mr. Buzhardt o r Mr. P owers

communicate to you anything about what was th e cause of th ee ighteen an d a h a l f minute gap during t h i s period?

22 A Now, we could spend th e r e s t o f the da y if we23 went in to t h a t , b u t I can only say t h i s , t h a t these24 amateurs , and l e t me say to you, l ad ies an d gentlemen, i f25 you a re not a lawyer you w i l l be one day, so we w i l l sa y ,

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l ad ies and gentlemen, as lawyers when you have a t echn ica lproblem, d o n ' t t ry to so lve it yourse l f . These clowns - -pardon the express ion - - they go in , they t ry to r e - c r ea tet h i s and t h a t and t he o the r t h ing and i ns t ead o f ge t t ingan expe r t in r i g h t away to f ind ou t about the no i se , o fcourse they d id and they to ld me, wel l , we d o n ' t know,we t h ink maybe a lamp caused it o r maybe it had to be doneby a lamp and a t ypewr i t e r on o f a cer t a in type may havecaused it, and then a t ano ther t ime they sa id , wel l ,we are not sur e , it must have been done in ano ther way.

A ll t h a t they knew was t h a t they were able tog e t a t it, and they even tua l ly d id c a l l expe r t s in , and theywere also t ry ing to do it, i nc iden ta l ly , working with a copya t t h i s t ime - - they d i d n ' t work with the o r ig in a l s , sot he r e i s no ques t ion about t h e i r doing any erasure , as f a ras I know - - a t l e a s t they to ld me they were working withcop ie s .

In any event , a l l o f t h i s di scuss ion and whe t h e rit occurred o r what day it o ccu r r ed , I c a n ' t t e l l you, b u tit was over a per iod of t ime as to how it might havehappened. A ll they said i s t h a t you had to have th e recordbut ton on and you had to have - - in t h i s case Miss Woodswas using a foot p ~ d a l - - when I l i s t ened to the tape Ihave not done t h a t , but o f course when you are not typ ingyo u d o n ' t need a foot peda l , you can ' j u s t l i s t en the o ther


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1 way.2 I should po in t o u t , in terms o f t ime, t h a t t h i s3 conversa t ion about what caused it and who caused it , and so4 for th and so on, these conversa t ions occurred a f t e r the5 Governors ' Conference - - I mean a f t e r we got it down to6 S i r i c a ' s cour t - - because then it wa s an i ssue, a publ i c7 i s sue . Before t h a t t ime I was, f rankly , so t i ed up with8 o t h e r t h ings t h a t a l l t h a t I was doing wa s wai t ing fo r them9 to give me a recommendqtion.

10 Now yo u unders tand what they were doing in t h i s11 per iod was, I am su re , t ry ing to f ind ou t whether th e y could12 r econs t ruc t it and what caused it. But as fa r as my13 conversa t ion with them, the conversa t ions t h a t I j u s t14 refer red to occurred a f t e r th e Governors ' Conference , when15 they a l l , in t h e i r g r e a t wisdom, had determined t h a t it wa s]1; a subpoenaed t ape , t h a t it could no t be recons tructed , and

t h a t they d i d n ' t know how it happened, but t h a t it had to be18 done, they thought , manually , which, i nc iden ta l ly , I have1!+ learned from o f course , every expe r t in th e country now

i s an expe r t on the tapes - - bu t I have l ea rned it can be21 done apparent ly t echn ica l ly , as wel l , and I t h ink t ha t the re

i s no reason th i s should n ot be in the record.23 I saw r ecen t ly where a Cleveland au thor i ty24 on t apes po in t s o u t t h a t malfunct ions o f a machine of ten25 e r a s e . This I unders tand i s not ev idence fo r you - -

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1 091 Q Well , we apprec ia te , of course anything t h a t2

you might want to con t r ibu te re la t ing to what might have3 caused it.4 A Yes. I d o n ' t know how it happened.5 Q You have mentioned t h a t it now became a more6 publ i c i s sue . At th i s po in t do yo u r e c a l l whether o r no t7 you contac ted o r had anybody con tac t Mr . Haldeman to see8 whether he had a more complete r eco l l ec t ion as to what was9 on the June 20th t ape?

10 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l t ha t , but Mr. Haldeman's notes11 came' in to our pO ,s ses s ion , and I t h ink what happened the re12 . i s t h a t I asked e i t h e r Higby o r Buzhardt - - not Higby, - -13 Q Genera l Haig?

A Haig o r Buzhardt - - I d o n ' t know which one - - they15 worked in te rchangeably , to see whether we could you see ,Hi we had had e a r l i e r , as yo u know, we had e a r l i e r the p roblem1 i o f what were ca l l ed th e - quote - tw o missing t apes - e ndIS quo te . They were not t apes missing a t a l l . They were

s imply unrecorded conve r sa t ions . So under the circumstanceI wanted to do everything poss ible in coopera t ing wi th the

21 Specia l Prosecutor , if we cou ldn ' t have a record ing , to g i ve22 them what we did have, so I author ized o r asked somebody to23 g e t a hold of Haldeman and g e t h is no tes . I don ' t r e c a l l when24 o r how.25

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Q Do yo u r e c a l l whether during th i s t ime o r a t any


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llO1 po in t you requested though t h a t Mr . Haldeman be contac ted2

to ge t h i s r eco l l ec t ion of the meeting?3 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l t ha t .4 Or did yo u have such a conversa t ion with5 Mr. Haldeman?6 A No, I d o n ' t r e c a l l t ha t . I note you were7 re fe r r ing to the Haldeman no tes . That was h is reco l lec t ion .8 I imagine it i s a l l he could r eca l l .9 Q Now I _th ink we could , given one o f your e a r l i e r

10 responses to t h i s , ask more o f a summary ques t ion: ~ r i n g th e11 second round of hear ings Miss Woods t e s t i f i ed on severa l12 occas ions , Mr. Bul l t e s t i f i ed on severa l occas ions , Mr.13 Buzhardt t es t i{ ied and 'Genera l Haig t e s t i f i e d . Do you

r e c a l l whether you discussed wi th them the content o f t h e i r-15 tes t imony?1(; A At what t ime?

Q At around the t ime they were giving it. I askit genera l ly in l i g h t of your ea r l i e r response.

A No. Let me say, f i r s t , t h a t they were a l l awareo f , with regard to the d isc losure of tes t imony. In f ac t ,

2-1 Mr . Rhyne, a very ' 'close fr iend of mine, in the second go-around was represent ing Miss Woods an d to ld her t ha t she

23 cou ldn ' t even t e l l me what she was t e s t i fy ing about , b ut the24 po in t i s t ha t as fa r as what t h e i r test imony had been, they25 followed the ru les t h a t people are supposed to follow with

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regard to t e s t imony before a Grand Jury

. As f a r as each o f them was concerned, I c a n ' tr e c a l l any extended, o r as a matte r of .f a c t any spec i f i cronversat ions in which we discussed what the t e s t imony would

5 be. I was only fol lowing it in terms o f what th e f ac t s(j might be and to me the most i n t r igu ing par t o f it wa s t h i s7 g r e a t panel o f exper t s , what they were going to come up with8 I had eve ry confidence t h a t Miss Woods'9 t e s t imony would, and any member of my s t a f f ' s , tes t imony

10 would be , I thought , as respons ive as they could make it.11 And if the impor t o f your ques t ion Ls did I12 .I coach them, did I tell them what to say , d id they ask me13 what to say , the answer i s , no.14 Q During the course o f your t e s t imony t h i s15 morning, you have t o ld us about th e r e p o r t t h a t Miss Woods1(; made to you regard ing th e b r i e f buzz which she may have17 caused on, I guess , October 1. Now a p a r t from t h a t , has18 Miss Woods ever to ld you t h a t she was responsible for o r19 caused the e r a sur e o f th e en t i re e ighteen an d a h a l f minutes20 of the conversa t ion?21

22 I,)., !:_., !

A No, on the con t r a r y , she has always denied t h a tthe buzz t h a t she hea rd was more than four and a ha l f to f ivminutes , and she cannot expla in how e ighteen minutes could

24 ! have occurred . She doesn ' t , i nc iden ta l ly , charge t h a tI!

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anybody e l se did it o r was t h e r e , and she d o e s n ' t know, bu t


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11 21 she says he r bes t r eco l l ec t ion i s t h a t it was a very2 b r i e f buzz and t h a t i s what she had t o ld me.

Q Now has Mr. Bull ever ind ica ted to yo u t h a t hecaused or wa s responsible for the erasure of any por t ion

5 of t h a t tape?6 A No, no, never .7 Q Ha s anybody e l se ever ind ica ted to yo u t h a t they8 were r e spons ib l e f o r o r caused the erasure o f t h a t tape?9 A I want to assure the Spec ia l Prosecutor and h is

10 s t a f f t h a t I , of course , had th e most in tens ive i nves t iga t io11 made to see i f anybody e l s e had had access who might have12 , done it, inc luding even the Secre t Service , and they sa id ,13 no. When I say , they sa id no, the r epor t s were unanimous.14 They had no o ther occas ions t h a t anybody e l s e who had15 access to th e t apes could have done it.]( j Q You r e fe r red to the i nves t iga t ion . Do you17 r e c a l l who wa s charged with t h a t r espons ib i l i t y?18 A Well , j u s t Haig genera l ly , and he wa s so busy1!l with o t h e r th ings . How many people he asked, I don ' t20 know.21

22

') '> I_ ~ } III

24 iIIIi

Q So - -A Yes, I should emphasize t h a t I d i d n ' t wri te a

memorandum saying, order ing an i nves t iga t ion . It wa ss imply a conversa t ion. I said to him, I s a i d , l e t ' sf ind out how th i s damn th ing happened.~ ! 5 I:

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11 3

I am sor r y , I wasn ' t supposed to use profan i ty .

You have enough on t he t apes .Q Apar t from what we have discussed today , and I

would assume you may be aware from the publ ic t es t imony ,do you have any o t h e r in fo rmat ion as to who might have beenresponsible for and who might have caused th e e r a sur e o ft h a t tape?

A No, I have none.MR. DAVIS: I am going to no w consu l t with the

tw o r ep resen ta t ives from the Grand Jury to see if they haveany f u r t h e r ques t ions t h a t they would l i ke to ask .

THE WITNESS: Sure . Do anyth ing you l i k e .BY MR. DAVIS: (Counsel and ju ro r s wit -draw from confer e nce ro m

Q Ju s t t o make sure we unders tand the termsof t h i s r eques t o f General Haig, if I unders tand itc o r r e c t l y , and I want you to cor r ec t me if I am miss ta t ingit a t a l l , you made a genera l ized r eques t o f General Haigto see if he could de te rmine any th ing as to what o r who wasr e spons ib l e , and he repor ted back to you, I assume o r a l l y ,t h a t he had no b e t t e r explana t ion t t lan anybody e l s e . I st h a t a f a i r s tatement?

A I , t h ink a more accura te s ta tement i s t h a t r a t h e rthan my ca l l ing Haig in and say ing , look, now you conductan inves t iga t ion in to t h i s th ing , it i s t h a t in ourconversa t ions about it, and Buzhardt might have been presen t I


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it, an d Haig ' s eva lua t ion - - which he i s a very honestman - - I mean, in eva lua t ing with a l l of the bark o f f - -plus the re i s no evidence whatever to ind ica te t h a t anybodye l se could have done it.

Now l e t me say t h i s does not mean t h a t t h i sSpecia l Prosecu to r ' s of f i ce and the Grand Jury should no tproceed on a more thorough way in ques t ion ing every o theri nd iv idua l who might have had access .

I f you a re i n t e r es t ed in my view as to whathappened, it i s very s imple . It i s t h a t it wa s an acc iden t .My view as f a r as Miss Woods' ro le i s t h a t I be l ieve hert o t a l l y , b ut I guess I would be expected to because she hasbeen with me so long and she i s deep ly r e l i g i o u s , b ut shed o e s n ' t wear it on h er s l eeve ; she has it here in h erhear t , and she would never l i e to me, and under thesecircumstances when she sa id t h a t she d id n ' t erase any th ing ,t h a t she d i d n ' t hear any th ing , she d o e sn ' t know what i s on

e l s e , General Haig d o e s n ' t know o f anybody e l s e , Buzhardtd o e s n ' t know of anybody e l s e , and a lso the impor tan t th ingi s t h a t the panel of expe r t s could n ot r e a l l y f ind a bas ic

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115agreement as to even how it occurred . They do, up to apo in t , b ut t he r e a r e so many, from having cur so r i ly , giv inga cursory read ing o f the r epor t , the re a re so many loop-holes t h a t they j u s t a r en ' t going to g e t caught on t h a t .

I d o n ' t know how it happened.Q Without o f course going in to the e x p e r t s ' r e p o r t

o r any o f t h a t , I j u s t want to ask one ques t ion based onyour l a s t response , and t h a t i s when you say t h a t it i s youropinion t h a t it wa s an acc iden t , a r e you saying t h a t thee n t i r e e ighteen and a h a l f minutes took place o r th e e n t i r ee ighteen and a h a l f minute gap was c r ea t ed by Miss Woods'acc iden t t h a t she repor ted to you?

IIIINo, I am not saying t h a t a t a l l . I am saying

I t h ink whatever occurred , and assuming t h a t it wa s anthal

erasure , which I th ink could be assumed based on th e f ac tt h a t the exper ts did f ind f:>craps 'o f words, - - Miss Woodsdoesn ' t l ike th e word e r a sur e because she sa id she d i d n ' thear any th ing , an d o f course I be l ieve her .

My po in t i s as fa r as anyth ing she did , it wasan acc iden t . As f a r as th e balance o f it, she could havedone it a l l an d it would have been acc iden ta l , some mal-func t ion of the machine . She could have. She d o e s n ' t t h inkso . She says it wa s only four an d a h a l f to f ive minutes .That i s what she t e s t i f i ed to , and t h a t i s what she to ldme pe r sona l ly . As fa r as some t h i r d person, ano ther person

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ge t t ing to it and erasin g it, I , f i r s t , I know of no suchpers on, I haven ' t heard of any person , and, second, I knowo f no motive, par t icu la r ly when you look a t these notes .I mean I wish we could f ind it.

MR . DAVIS: I th ink we a l l do.THE WITNESS: I mean t h i s i s pre t ty good s t u f f .MR. DAVIS: I th ink t h a t i s a l l of the ques t ions on

t h i s sub jec t . Thank you very much.(Whereupon, a t 12:45 p.m. , the deposi t ion was re -

cessed , to reconvene a t 1:45 p.m. the same day . ) .

Documents

Gpo Nara Wspf Nixon Grand Jury Records 20