Interview  with  Dr.  Gordon  Neufeld  

September  1,  2015  

   

Hold  On  to  Your  Kids:  Why  Parents  Need  to  Matter  More  than  Peers    

 

 

 

 

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Jacqueline:                     I   am  absolutely  delighted!  First  off,   this   is   the  kickoff  of   the   fall   season.   I  am   so   honored   and  delighted   to   have   Dr.   Gordon   Neufeld,   such   a  preeminent  parenting  educator  speaking  to  us  for  the  show.  

                                                                          A   few   things   I   want   to   mention,   if   you   are   brand-­‐new   here,   welcome,  welcome.   I   would   love   to   hear,   as   I   said   in   the   chat   room,   some  information  about  you,  that  would  be  fabulous.  Oh,  and  just  so  you  know,  in   the   chat   room,   it   says,   "GPS   expert   is   Rose."   Next   time   it   will   say  something  different  but  GPS  expert  is  Rose  and  she  is  our  tech  person  who  will  help  you  with  any  issues.  And  for  the  most  part  I  will  be  looking  at  the  chat  afterwards  unless  Rose  brings  something  to  my  attention.  

                                                                          Huge  kudos  to  you  for  finding  the  time  to  be  here.  By  way  of  introductions,  you  have  already  read,  I  am  sure,  Dr.  Gordon  Neufeld's  bio.  I  wanted  to  do  something  different.  I  know  so  many  of  you  have  requested  that  we  have  him   on   the   show.   He   is   one   of   the   educators  who   as   far   as   I   know,   has  influenced   the   largest   number   of   parenting   educators.   There   is   a   large  number   of   people   who   I   have   had   on   the   show   whose   works   he   has  profoundly   influenced.  And  as  anyone  who  knows  my  work,  you  hear  me  constantly  talking  about  how  influential  he  is.  

                                                                         I   wanted   to   give   a   short   heartfelt   tribute   because   literally   if   I    had   not  encountered  his  work…  This  tribute  to  Dr.  Neufeld  is  really  on  behalf  of  so  many   parents   but   just   my   specific   example.   Had   I   not   encountered   his  work  about  12  years  ago  and  had  the  pleasure  and  the  privilege  of  working  with  him  and  taking  a  number  of  courses  with  him  I  honestly  don't  know  where   I   would   be   as   a   parent   because   I   don't   think   he   knew   what   a  parenting  mess   I  was  at   that  point.   I  had  profound  depression  after  each  child   and   really   realized   I   had   spent   my   life   chasing   depression.   My  marriage   had   such   a   high   level   of   conflict   that   I   actually   went   into   a  woman's   shelter   and   stayed   away   for   four   months.   I   got   back   into   the  relationship   and   the   threats   and   physical   violence   went   away.   It   was   a  conflictual  marriage.   I  had  a  rage   issues  at  my  kids,   I  had  major  discipline  issues,   I  was   totally   overwhelmed   at   the   point  when   I   encountered   your  work.  Dr.  Neufeld  was  so  profound.    

                                                                        What   I  want   to   share,   and   I   had   this   inspiration   to   share   a   little  more   in  person.  This  morning  my  son  said  to  me,  he   is  18  going  off   to  college  for  the   first   time.   He   said,   “Mom,   I   want   to   have   dinner   with   you   Saturday  

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night  because  it's  my  last  night  here."  And  of  course  that  made  me  teary-­‐eyed.   But   at   the   same   time   I   thought   –   how   appropriate?   Because   your  work  is  why  I  have  two  thriving  kids  despite  a  very  acrimonious  separation  a  year  and  a  half  ago  from  their  father.  There  is  lots  that  is  still  not  perfect  although  it's  pretty  close.  

                                                                          There's   lots   that's   pretty   perfect   in   our   lives   now   but   we've   had   a  challenging  parenting  situation  and  yet   I  have   two  thriving  children,   truly  thriving.   They   are   in   the   top   of   their   school   in   many   ways.   I   am   truly  thriving  and  it's  a  tribute  to  you.  So  I  will  trust  that  everyone  else  will  read  the  extensive  credentials  because  the  Neufeld  Institute  is  across  the  world.  There  are  instructors  and  trainers  who  you  have  personally  trained  across  the  world.  It  is  profound  how  your  work  is  rolling  out  and  thank  goodness  it's  affecting  thousands  and  thousands  more  families.  

                                                                          So   on   that   note,   Dr.   Gordon   Neufeld,   welcome   to   The   Great   Parenting  Show!  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Thank   you.   Very   pleased   to   be   here   and   thank   you   for   that   affirmation.  And   I   know   you   made   it   to   me   personally   but   I   think   it's   just   really   an  affirmation  of  the  power  of   insight;  when  you  can  actually  make  sense  of  your  child.  So  the  material  I  think  is  powerful  and  stands  quite  apart  from  me  but  I  am  glad  when  I  could  have  a  part  of  actually  opening  the  eyes  of  parents  and  teachers  and  helping  professionals.  

Jacqueline:                     Yes.  And  before  anyone  who  is  not…  I  am  not  sure  if  this  is  backwards,  it  is  backwards   in   my   view   but  Hold   On   To   Your   Kids.  And   this   is   an   original  edition   that   I   actually  got   signed  by  you.  And  you  were  gracious  enough,  even   though   I   was   just   starting   out,   to   say,   "To   a   colleague   in   the  attachment   field.  Profound   work.   And   I   highly,   highly   recommend  her."  There  have  been  a  couple  of  editions  since  but   I  highly   recommend  that  book  to  everyone.  

                                                                          So  I  would  like  to  start  with  asking  for  a  brief  overview  of  how  you  got  into  this  work  just  to  help  people  understand  where  you  come  from.  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   My  background  was  as  a  very  strong  behaviorist.  And  as  a  behaviorist,  you  eschew  all  kinds  of  inferences  of  inner  states.  You  look  at  behavior  directly.  And  I  was  quite  taken  with  it.  It's  was  in  its  heyday  –  behaviorism  taught  in  the  universities,  and  then  I  had  children.  

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                                                                          And  what  I  realized  is  it  didn't  help  me  make  sense  of  it.  I  always  have  this  longing  for  understanding  and  insight  ever  since  I  was  small  and  I  couldn't  make  sense  of  them.  And  if  I  couldn't  make  sense  of  them,  it  didn't  really  inform  my   dance.   I   was   going   from  my   head   and   not  my   heart,   not  my  intuition.   I   got   my   first   professional  assignments  working   with   hardened  criminals   and   then  with   young   offenders   and   then   I   also   got   involved   in  working   with   very   disturbed   young   adults.   In   all   of   these   scenarios,   the  material  that  was  available,  the  understanding  that  was  available  could  not  put  the  pieces  together.  It  could  not  contribute  to  truly  making  sense  of  it  and  so  I  began  to  long  for  something  more.  

                                                                          I   discovered   in   my   teaching   at   the   University   of  BC  in   my   courses   that   I  taught  there,  material  –  (as  a  professor  you  get  all  kinds  of  textbooks  given  to  you  to  try  out).  And  I  began  to  realize  that  there  was  a  different  kind  of  psychology   being   taught   in   Europe   –    an   attachment-­‐based   and  developmental   approach.   And   so   that   started   me   putting   the   pieces  together   of   material   that   just   was   not   in   North   America   and   was   not  available   to   North   American  and   scientists   or   especially   in   the   parenting  field.  That  began  a   lifelong  search  now,  over  40  years   long  of  putting  the  puzzle  pieces  together  to  make  sense  of  the  kids  in  our  care.  But,  it  was  an  attachment-­‐based  and  developmental  approach  whereas  here  we  are  still  very,  very,  very   learning  theory  and  behavioral  approach  to  in  our  way  of  thinking.  

Jacqueline:                     Excellent.   It's   a   fascinating   background   and   I   think   it's   fabulous   that   you  came   from   that   behavioral   background.   And   really   briefly   so   everyone  knows,  I  often  use  internal  alignment  only  to  try  to  help  people  who  don't,  assuming  attachment  goes  along.  Some  of  the  files  that  attachment-­‐based  use  that  don't  work  for  others  so  their  words  are  interchangeable  in  mind.  

                                                                          I   was  struck   when   I   first   heard   you   say   this,   that   we   shouldn't   need   a  parenting  manual  and  yet  nowadays  there  is  a  crazy  number.  Googling  the  word  "parenting"  produced  261  million  hits.  Can  you  talk  about  what  has  shifted   so   that   we   have   gone   from   not   needing   a   parenting   manual   to  having  260  million  hits  on  Google  and  how?  

 

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Dr.  Neufeld:                   Well,   we   have   lost   our   confidence   as   parents.   When   you   lose   your  confidence,  you  believe   the  answer   is   in   the  how  to's  and  so   it   creates  a  demand  that  then  creates  a  whole  set  of  gurus,  a  whole  set  of  experts  that  supply  that  demand.  The  problem  is  much  deeper.  

                                                                          The  problem  is  a  thesis  of  my  book  and  all  of  the  courses  that  I  create,   is  that   the   context   is   by   far   the   most   important   issue   in   parenting   and   in  teaching   and   in   treatment   and   therapy.   And   by   "context"  we  mean,   and  the  word   is   very   interesting   because   the  word   context   is   "con,"   in   Latin,  "with  text,"  which  is  the  words.   It's  that  which  comes  with  the  words  but  it's  not  the  words.  

                                                                          And   if   it's   not   the  words,  we   don't   have   it   in   consciousness   so  we   don't  know   that's   what's   important.   The   context   for   raising   children   to   their  potential   is   the   relationship   of   the   child   to   the   adults   who   are  responsible.    That   is  the  context.  That’s  never   looked  at.  You  could  take  a  look  at  for  instance  the  horse  whisperer  in  the  movie  or  dog  whisperers  or  anything  like  that.  

                                                                          First  of  all  it  was  thought  that  it  was  something  they  were  doing,  there  was  magic   in   what   they   were   doing.   And   then   of   course   as   we   looked   at   it  closer  and  closer  we  realized  it  had  nothing  to  do  with  that.  The  magic  of  the  horse  whisperer  is  in  the  relationship  with  the  horse  to  the  trainer.  The  magic  of  the  dog  whisperer  is  in  the  relationship  of  the  dog  to  the  trainer.  And   so   this   came   out   very   early   actually   and   debunked   behaviorism   in  about  the  1960s  and  70s.  But,   it  was  the  best  kept  secret  actually  that  on  all   of   these   reinforcement   schedules,   these   learning,   all   of   this   content  based,  all  of  this  curriculum-­‐based  stuff,  all  of  it  was  swept  away  by  saying  –   no,   it's   not   that   at   all.   You   could   have   the   best   grandmother,   the   best  teacher  in  the  world,  but  that  doesn't  create  the  master  grandmother,  the  master  teacher.  It's  the  relationship  of  the  child  to  the  teacher  that  creates  the   master  out   of   the   teacher.   Is   the   relationship   of   the   child   to   the  grandmother  to  the  parent.  

                                                                          And  so  again,  this  is  still  the  best  kept  secret.  It  is  so  simple  and  profound  the  changes  everything.  But   that's   the  thesis.  That's   the  central   theme  of  the  book.  It's  that  the  relationship  of  the  child  to  the  parent  to  the  teacher  to   the   day   caregiver   or   the   caregiver   rather   to   the   therapist,   that   is   the  most  significant  factor  in  the  unfolding  of  human  potential.  

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                                                                          And  if  we  go  even  further,  we  find  out  there  are  instincts  in  children  to  foil  the   influence  of   those   to  whom  they  are  not  attached.  There   is   two  very  strong   instincts   that   aren't   even   talked   about   in   contemporary   theories.  One   is,   I   use   the   term   "counter   will."   I   borrowed   that   term   after   a  Vietnamese   a   psychoanalyst   over   100   years   ago  Otto   Rank;   he  made   up  the  word  in  German,  but  I  borrowed  the  word  and  brought  it  into  English.  There  is  an  instinct  in  humans,  in  fact  in  all  mammals,  to  resist  the  will  of  those  to  whom  they  are  not  attached.  Now  this  cripples  the  school  system,  it   cripples   step-­‐parenting,   it   cripples   foster  parenting,   adoptive  parenting  and  it   is  crippling  much  of  parenting  these  days  because  it   is  drawing  out  the  wrong  instincts  in  children.  

                                                                          There  is  another  instinct  which  we  have  mislabeled  "social  anxiety",  which  is  really  shyness  in  which  it  doesn't  feel  right  to  look  at,  smile  at  or  interact  with  anyone  that  we  are  not  attached  to.  These  two  instincts  are  meant  to  keep  us,  in  children,  in  context  of  those  to  whom  they  are  attached.  When  the   relationship   is   not   right,   when   the   relationship   is   not   deep   enough,  nothing  will  work.  

                                                                          Now  when  things  don't  work,  parents  panic  and  they  think  the  answer  is  in  the  next  book  or  in  the  next  seminar  or  in  the  next  webinar  like  this  and  in  actual   fact   that's   not   true.   The   answer   is,  we   can   here   provide   some  insight,  but  in  actual  fact,  the  real  answer  is  in  their  children's  relationship  to   them.   And   so   I   wanted   to   write   a   book   like   none   other.   I   wanted   to  write  a  book  that  was  totally  different  than  any  other  parenting  book  that  really  spoke  to  context,  that  spoke  to  the  relationship  and  try  to  see  if  we  could  massage  the  dance  a   little  bit,   the  child-­‐parent  dance,   the  student-­‐teacher  dance  because  that  is  where  everything  begins.  

Jacqueline:                     Yes,  you  did  a  fantastic  job  too  and  literally  a  decade  later  I  am  reading  and  rereading   the   book.   It's   a   gold  mine.   So   how   do   you   help   given   that   as  parents  we  actually  have  the  instincts  to  push  our  kids  towards  other  kids?  In  many  cases  and  we  are  pushing  them  away  from  us.  How  do  you  help  parents  start  to  shift  then?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Yes,  you  are  alluding  to  another  theme  in  the  book,  the  theme  in  the  book  that  became  the  major  theme.  It  was  first  of  all  quite  a  sub-­‐theme,  was  the  fact   that   we   are   losing   our   children   to   their   peers   so   that   peers   are  beginning   to   matter   more   to   children   than   their   own   parents   and  

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grandparents   and   teachers   and   uncles   and   aunts.   This   is   fundamentally  usurping   the   natural   power   of   parents   and   teachers   and   adversely  affecting  the  context  in  which  children  are  meant  to  be  raised.  

                                                                          And  you  speak  to  the  fact  that  normally  there  shouldn't  be  a  problem  with  children  attaching  to  other  children.  There  is  two  things  here  that  I  want  to  mention.   One   is   that   if   a   culture   was   intact,   then   the   children   that   our  children   played   with   would   have   an   adult   attachment   in   common;   a  grandparent,   a   teacher.    They   would   have   an   attachment   in   common.  That's   like   the   planet's   that   are   revolving   around   the   sun.   Their   primary  attachment  is  not  to  each  other.  The  primary  attachment  is  to  the  sun  and  that  creates  harmony  in  the  universe.  

                                                                          The  problem  would  be  if  any  of  those  planets  started  orbiting  around  each  other.  It  would  cause  chaos  in  the  attachment  universe.  That's  exactly  the  same   what   it   is   with   children.   Because   we   have   become   undone,   our  culture  has  changed.  Our  children  are  no  longer  being  raised  in  the  villages  of  adults  that  they  have  common  attachments  to  because  the  students  in  the  classroom  don't  share  a  common  attachment  with  the  teacher.  

                                                                          What  happens  now   is   that  when   they  attached   to  each  other   it  begets  a  competing   attachment   rather   than   simply   a   complementary   attachment.  This   is   the   same  with   stepparents   because   the  mother   usually   does   not  introduce   the   stepmother.   If   you   follow  me,   in   our   culture,  mothers   and  stepmothers  are  usually  arc  enemies  and  this  is  always  the  way  it's  been  in  tradition.  Because   they  don't   come   from   inside   the   village   introduced  by  the  mother,   you   have   a   problem  with   competing   attachment.   And   so,   if  the  child  does  attach  to  the  stepmother  they  are  often  drawn  away  from  their  natural  mother.  

                                                                          If   they  are  very  attached   to   their  natural  mother,   they  will   tend   to   resist  contact   and   closeness   with   step-­‐mothering.   This   places   havoc   in   raising  children  because  in  our  society,  children  tend  to  have  many  adults  involve  in  raising  them  and  so  this  is  a  problem.  

                                                                          There   is   one  more   thing   that   I  would   like   to  mention   is  we   are   into   the  third   generation   of   peer   orientation.   This   started   after   the   second  world  war  and  it  took  hold  in  the  1960s.  By  the  time  the  hippies  came  along,  this  was   the   first-­‐first-­‐generation   of   peer   oriented   who  believed  their   friends  

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were  more   important   than   their  parents,   than   their  ancestors,   than   their  families  of  origin  and  so  on.  Now  we  have  grandparents  who  were  part  of  that   first-­‐generation.   They   instinctively   think,   because   their   instincts   are  skewed,  they  instinctively  think  that  peer  relationships  are  more  important  than  family  relationships  and  so  that's  why  they  go  to  retirement  areas  like  Arizona   and   so   on.   They   flock   to   be   together   rather   than   finding  themselves  in  proper  hierarchical  arrangement  in  families  and  serving  their  roles.  

                                                                          All  traditional  cultures  are  grandparent  centric  and  when  a  society  loses  its  grandparents,   it's   loses   those  common  attachments,   those  we  are  meant  to   revolve   around.   It   loses   its   most   valuable   resource.   And   so   today's  parents,  because  already  they  are  most  likely  a  second  or  third  generation  peer  oriented  person,   they   look  to  each  other.  They   look  to  Google,   they  look  to  whatever.  They  don't  look  to  hierarchical  attachments,  they  look  to  peer  attachments  for  the  answer.  

                                                                          Because  they  think  that  friends  are  their  answer,  they  also  think  that  that's  the  answer  for  children.  And  so  they  think  that  they  need  to  get  three  and  four-­‐year-­‐olds  with   friends,   they  need  high  self-­‐esteem,   they  need   to  get  all  of  these  things  for  children  or  they  will  never  survive  and  it's  completely  opposite  to  that.  The  more  peer  oriented  children  are,  the  more  wounded  they   get.   The   more   peers   matter,   the   more   hurt   they   get,   the   more  dysfunctional   they   get.   All   of   these   things   just   goes   in   a   completely  opposite  direction  to  what  we  think.  

                                                                          The   healthiest   children,   the   healthiest   adolescents,   the   single   most  important   factor   for   them   in   all   of   the   research   that   has   been   done,   is  a  strong,   emotional,   safe,   caring,  relationship   with   an   adult.   That   is   the  single  most  important  factor  in  any  child  and  adult,  not  peer  relationships.  

Jacqueline:                     It   is  so  wild  and  that's  why  I  say   I  am  so  profoundly  grateful  for  the  work  you  are  doing  and   for  how  you  are   spreading   this   information  out   there.  We  do  have  so  much  of  an  internalized  feeling  that  our  kids  don't  need  us  and  teenage  kids  and  that  type  of  thing.  

                                                                          I   am   realizing   Dr.   Neufeld   that   one   of   the   things   I   didn't   ask   you   is   to  define,  like,  what  attachment  is.  Just  before  doing  that,  I  want  to  say  that  if  people  want  to  look  for  proof  that  what  you're  saying  is  true,  we  can  look  

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at  a  myriad  of   ways   where   kids   are   going   sideways   now.   They   are  more  and   more   peer   oriented.  We   can   also   look   at  how   young   the   issues   are  getting.   Even   craziness   and   drug   issues   and   cutting   and   some   of   those  crazy  things  are  moving  younger  and  younger  and  younger.  So  what  is  this  attachment  force  that  you  are  talking  about?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   When  attachment  is  a  very  unfortunate  term.  It  is  not  very  intuitive.  If  you  Google  it,  it  is  just  something  that  you  send  with  an  email  so  it's  not  a  very  intuitive  term.  

                                                                          Attachment  is  a  scientific  term  for  the  social  aspect  of  humans,  our  instinct  for  togetherness.  All  of  the  emotions,  all  of  the  instincts,  all  our  motivation  to  seek  togetherness.  The  best  way  of   thinking  of   it   is   that  attachment   is  basically  the  science  of  relationship.  

                                                                          Now  taken  at  its  most  concrete  terms,  it  has  to  do  in  mammals,  in  seeking  to  be  with,   in  proximity  with;  seeking  to  be  close  with,   to  be   in  sight  and  smell   and   hearing,   in   touch   and   so   on   and   so   that   is   profound.   Many  attachment  theories  get  stuck  there.  They  get  stuck  at  the  very  first  phase  of   this.   This   is   only   the  beginning  of   relationship.   Then,   it  must  move  on  from  there  and  develop.    In  my  studies  and  putting  the  pieces  together,  it  appears   that   there   were   about   six   stages   of   the   development   of  relationship  that  correlated  if  everything  is  unfolding  as  it  should,  to  the  six  first  years  of  life.  The  way  of  pursuing  closeness  in  the  second  year  of  life  built   on   being  with,   is   being   liked;   to   be   the   same   as.    This   is  where   you  have  the  acquisition  of  language,  demeanor,  you  walk  like,  talk  like,  those  to  whom  you  attach,  you  dress  like.  This  is  powerful.  If  there  is  problems  in  attachment  you  will  have  all  kinds  of  problems  in  these  things.  

                                                                          By  the  third  year,  attachment  should  be  experienced  as  being  part  of,  that  one  is  attached  to  those  that  one  is  part  of.  We  call  that  belonging.  There  is  also  loyalty.  To  be  attached  is  to  be  on  the  same  side  as  and  so  that  you  stand   up   for,   you   protect,   you   defer,   you   obey   those   to   whom   you   are  attached.  

                                                                          Now  if  there  is  attachment  problems,  it   is  at  this  stage  where  the  instinct  to  be  good   is  born.   It   is  a   fruition  of  attachment.   If   there  are  attachment  problems  or  a  child  is  attached  to  the  wrong  things,  people,  pets,  they  are  trying  to  be  good  for  the  wrong  things,  people  etc.  etc.  because  wherever  

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you   have   attachment   problems   are   going   to   have   all   kinds   of   other  problems.  

                                                                          By   the   fourth   year   a   child   should   feel   attached   by   being   significant,   by  mattering.   And   so   you   feel   close   to   those   who   hold   you   dear,   who   you  matter   to   and   so   on.    In   the   fifth,   incredibly   what   happens   if   everything  unfolds   properly,   is   the   limbic   system  which   is   our   emotional   brain   that  which  we  share  with  all  mammals,  is  that  the  limbic  system  opens  up  all  its  stops  and  you  become  very  emotionally   involved   in  terms  of  attachment.  It's  when  we  would  say  intuitively  that  a  child  gives  it's  heart  to  whomever  he’s  attached  to;  the  kitten,  the  grandmother,  whatever.  

                                                                          It   is   so   palpable   because   he   gives   his   heart  and  the  heart   is   a   symbol   of  emotion   of   course.   "Heart"   is   a   symbol   of   love   and   a   symbol   of  vulnerability  because  it  reveals  great  vulnerability  in  all  of  attachment  that  when  you  attach  you  set  yourself  up  for  separation.  If  you  give  your  heart  away  you  risk  it  being  broken.  

                                                                          And  as  one  of  the  reasons,  when  we  put  the  pieces  together  that  we  know  that  children  were  only  meant  to  give  their  hearts  in  the  context  of  forever  relationships.    Because   if   you   give   your   heart   and   you   can   see   that   it's  broken,  quite  quickly  the  brain  says  "We  are  out  of  here."  And  you  detach  because   getting   a   broken   heart   is   dreadful.   In   sociology   we   know   that  family  relationships  are  the  only  forever  relationship.  Your  mother  is  your  mother  dead  or  alive.  Your  grandfather   is  your  grandfather  dead  or  alive,  it's  the  only  role  in  society  that  transcends  death.  

                                                                          And   since   it   transcends  death   it   actually   is   safe   and   that's  why  we   know  again  that  family  was  meant  to  be  the  context  in  which  the  full  capacity  for  relationship  develop.  This  creates  the  context  for  this.  

                                                                          I  will   ask  parents,   "When  did  your  child  give  you  his  heart?"   If  he   is  over  four  years  of  age.    "Well   I  don't  know."  "Well,  does  he  say  he   love  you   in  the  most   heartfelt   palpable   way?   Do   you   feel   that   he   has   given   you   his  heart?"   "Why   is   that   important?   I   am   here   to   talk   about   behavior  problems."  And  my  response  is,  "We  were  never  ever  meant  to  deal  with  children   whose   hearts   we   did   not   have."   If   we   have   the   heart   of   our  adolescent  and  we  are  meant   to  have   it,  we've  got  a  context   in  which  to  raise  them.  If  we  don't  have  their  heart   it's  a  relationship  problem  that   is  

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the  bottom  of  it.  

                                                                          Now  take  it  one  step  further,  we  can  have  the  heart  of  a  five-­‐year-­‐old  but  they  still  are  very  sneaky  –  whatever  mommy  doesn't  know  won't  hurt  me.  But   at   the   last   level   of   unfolding,   we   call   psychological   intimacy.   At   the  emotional   level   we   call   it   emotional   intimacy.   At   psychological   intimacy  occurs   to   a   child   that   they   don't   want   to   have   any   secrets   that   would  divide.  They  want  to  be  known  and  heard  from  inside  out.  Well  this  creates  a   context   by  which   you   actually   know   your   child   and  we  were  meant   to  have  a  sense  of   them  but  you  can't   force   this.   It's   the  relationship  of   the  child  to  the  adult.  

                                                                          Now  when  this  is  here  you  are  much  more  equipped  to  be  able  to  do  your  job.   And   so   in   many   ways,   you   could   see   that   relationship   is   nature's  answer  to  how  to  stay  close  when  apart.  I  just  have  to  back  up  here  a  little  bit  Jacqueline.  

                                                                          What  absolutely  changed  science  and  the  understanding  of  this  is  we  used  to  think  that  humans  have  survival  needs.  All  the  great  thinkers  perceived  that  Maslow's  survival  needs  were  at  the  beginning  of  the  hierarchy.  And  when   attachment  was   discovered   and   really   put   in   a   scientific  way,   they  realized  that  all  mammals  do  not  have  instincts  to  survive.  When  in  stress,  they  have  instincts  to  come  close  to  their  attachments  because  the  greater  proximity   you  have   to   those  who  care   for   you,   the  greater  probability  of  survival.  Do  you  follow  me  on  that?  That's  huge  right?  And  so  that's  what  makes  suicide  possible  and  all  kinds  of  things  like  that.  

                                                                          Well   that  means   that   attachment   is   at   the  highest  priority  of   everything.  And  when  we  look  at  it  this  way,  relationship  is  nature's  answer  to  how  to  stay  close  when  apart.  

                                                                          Now  hold  on  to  that  for  a  minute  and  think  of  the  significance  of  the  digital  revolution.  You  see,  the  digital  revolution,  the  digital  intimacy  has  given  a  technological  answer   to  how  to  stay  close  when  apart.  That  answer   is   so  significant.   That   answer   is   so   successful   that   it   interferes   with   the  development   of   relationship.   And   all   the   research   coming   in   now   is   not  that  digital  intimacy  doesn't  work,  it's  that  digital  intimacy  is  so  successful.  

                                                                          It's  like  having  sex  when  you  are  five  years  of  age;  it  is  too  good,  everything  becomes   sexualized.  And  digital   intimacy  before  you  have  developed   the  

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capacity  for  true  intimacy  actually  short-­‐circuits  the  whole  developmental  process.  

                                                                          Our  problem  now  is  that  our  adolescents  are  demonstrating  that  they  no  longer  have  a  deep  capacity  to  attach  at  the  heart  and  to  attach  at  being  known.  This   is  greatly  affecting  their  sexuality,  their  behavior,  all  of  these  kinds  of  things  but  it  all  comes  down  to  relationship.  Relationship  is  a  key  issue  and  that's  what  we  need  to  know  as  parents.  The  bottom  line  is  that  if  our  children  are  properly  attached  to  us,  and  we  need  to  find  our  way  of  becoming   their  answer;  acting  as   if  we  are   their  answer   in   terms  of   their  attachment   needs.   If   the   dance   is   there,   everything   else   will   unfold   but  when  the  dance  isn't  there,  nothing  that  we  do  is  going  to  work  properly.  

Jacqueline:                     I  just  so  appreciate  what  you  are  saying  because  when  you're  talking  about  the  relationship  being  so  key.  A  few  minutes  ago  you  talked  about  children  having  an  instinct  to  be  good.  That  Misunderstanding  of  that  instinct  leads  to   consequences   and   that   relationship  damaging   approach.  Do   you  want  to  talk  a  little  bit  about  that?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Absolutely!   There   is   nothing   more   important   to   hold   sacred   than   the  child's   desire   to   be   good   for   you.   This   is   so   important,   it   is   so   precious  and  it  is  so  natural.  When  we  have  a  good  relationship  with  somebody  we  naturally  want   to  make   things  work   for   them.  We   naturally   desire   to   be  good  for  them.  

                                                                          This   is   absolutely   key  and   this   should   start   in   about   the   third   year  of   life  where  you  can  palpably  feel  this  and  it  should  be  preserved  and  cultivated.  The  problem   is,   if  we  act   as   if   they  do  not  want   to  be  good   for  us.  If  we  say  in  effect,  if  we  look  around  in  their  life  and  we  look  at  a  child  and  say  –  "What   are   you   attached   to?  What   do   you   care   about   so   I   will   take   that  away   from  you  when  you  are  not  good,"  we  are   saying   in  effect,   “I   can't  trust  you.  You  care  more  about  things  than  about  me."  

                                                                          We   are   insulting   the   relationship.   If  we  did   it  with   our   friends  we  would  destroy   our   friendship   because   a   friendship   is   based   upon   that   implicit  trust;   that  you  want  to  make  things  work  for  the  other,   that  you  want  to  be   good   for   the   other   and   so   on.   That’s   why   we   have   taken   a   dreadful  wrong  turn  in  our  parenting  using  tricks  and  techniques  and  these  kinds  of  things  that  make  no  sense  when  we  understand  that  the  relationship  is  the  

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most  significant  factor  of  all.  

                                                                          And  there   is  no  doubt  about  this.  There   is  no  controversy  about  this.  We  have   known   this   for   a   long   time.   In   all   of   the   issues   around   therapy,  we  found  out  that   it's  not   the  method  of   therapy,   it's   the  relationship  of   the  client   to   the   therapist.  We  have   discovered   this   in   the   education   system  that  it  has  not  got  to  do  with  curriculum,  not  got  to  do  with  pedagogy,  not  got  to  do  with  technology,  it  has  to  do  with  the  student  to  the  teacher.  You  could   have   the   best   scenario   and   the   student   doesn't   have   a   good  relationship  with  the  teacher  and  it  actually  works  backwards.  

                                                                        All  of  these  things  we  know  and  yet  they  are  not  influencing  the  way  we  do  things   in   our   society.   It   is   a   dreadful   state   of   affairs   somewhat   akin   to  climate  warming  and   those  kinds  of   things.  We  have   the  knowledge   that  would   transform   us   and  we   are   not   putting   it   into   practice.   There   is   no  controversy  in  this  contrary  to  earth  warming  –  there  is  controversy.  There  is  no  controversy  with  regards  to  the  things  I'm  saying  that  the  relationship  is  the  most  significant  factor.  

                                                                        But   if   it  sank   in,   if   it  really  sank   into  us,   if  we  lived  out  this  truth   it  would  revolutionize  our  parenting,  our  teaching,  our  caregiving.  If  we  understood  that   the  most   significant   factor  bar  none   is   the  child's  attachment   to   the  adults   responsible,   it  would   totally   change  our   dance   and  we  would   find  our  way  back  to  our  natural  intuitions.  

Jacqueline:                   I   so  appreciate   that  global  warming  analogy  because   I   can  see   the  digital  and  then  the  peer  orientations  and  then  the  behaviors(ism)  and  how  all  of  those  combine  together  to  totally  produce  that.  And  you  absolutely  have  made  a  ray  of  hope  that  we  are  ricocheting  out  and  starting  to  reach  more  people.   Another   thing   that   affects   everything   is   the   way   parents   are  hovering  and  helicoptering  over  children  nowadays.   It   is  of  great  concern  because  as  parents,  we  do  have  the  instincts  that  our  kids  aren't  growing  up  right  and  so  parents  are  hovering.  What  do  you  want  to  say  about  that?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Well,  that's  a  natural   instinct  when  you  have  a  society  that   is  not  friendly  to  parents.  When  you  don't  have  support,  when  your  school,  your  teachers  do  not  come  on  to  take  the  side  of  the  parent,  do  not  support  the  parent  in  terms  of  their  job.  When  you  live  in  a  society  when  the  state  takes  the  approach  that  the  state  is  better  for  children  than  parents  are,  parents  are  

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naturally  going  to  react  defensively.  And  they  are  going  to  react  to  protect  their   own   because   we   are   living   in   an   unfriendly   world   –   There   is   an  enemy.    

                                                                          I   think   there   is  a  great  deal  of  understanding   that  needs   to  be   there   just  like  in  Canada.  We  are  land  of  immigrants.  Now  I  know  you've  got  a  large  audience   here   but   just   thinking   of(in)  Canada,   our   teachers   still   will   ask  Third   World   immigrants,   immigrants   that   are   coming   from   Third   World  countries,  will  suggest  they  want  to  talk  to  that  parent  about  a  problem  of  the  child.  

                                                                          Well   these   Third   World   cultures   live   around   belonging   and   loyalty,   you  must  not  say  anything  bad  about  the  person  that  you  are  responsible   for  or  attached  to,  that  would  be  disloyalty.  So  of  course  they  deny  a  problem  and   then   the   teacher   accuses   the   parent   of   being   protective,   of   denying  that's   a   problem.    This   is   another   example   of   the   same   kind   of   think   of  hovering   and   protecting   because   these   are   words   that   came   from   the  educational   community.   We   should   have   never   used   these   words  "helicopter  parenting."  They  were  dissing  the  parent.  And,  we  should  not  participate   in   the  kind  of   language   that  had  already  come   from  a  broken  society.  

                                                                          However  there  is  a  problem  and  I  am  giving  a  context  now  for  the  fact  that  these  were  words  made  up  the  educational  community   that  kind  of   took  hold   because   of   dissing   the   parents.   When   we   lack   a   confidence   in   the  child's  ability  to  adapt  to  their  world,  to  losses,  too  lacks,  to  losing,  to  these  kinds   of   things;  when  we   lose   our   confidence   that  we   can   protect   them  from  their  relationship  to  us,  not  that  we  have  to  do  things,  we  don't  have  to…  How  should  I  put  it…  

                                                                          The   child's   relationship   with   us   creates   a   shield   for   the   child.  When   we  matter   the  most   then   the   things   that  go  wrong   in   their  world  when   they  are  not  invited  to  a  birthday  party,  when  they  are  rejected,  when  they  are  put  down  by  a  friend,  will  not  hurt  to  the  quick,  it  would  not  wound  them  so  significantly  because  they  are  protected,  shielded  by  their   relationship  with   us.   That's   what   all   the   research   points   to   is   that's  the   key   issue   in  resilience.  

                                                                          But   the  parent  has   to  have   the   confidence   that   it's   the   child   relationship  

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with  us  that  is  protecting  them.  Believe  in  the  ability  of  the  child  to  adapt  to  circumstances  and  situations   for   them  to  relax  and  to  know  that  what  they  need  to  do  is  not  to  protect  the  child  so  much  against  the  cruel  world  or   in  an  unsupportive  world.  What  they  need  to  do  is  to  keep  that  child's  relationship  with  them  strong  enough.  If  they  have  their  child's  heart  they  can  protect  their  heart.  

                                                                          The  same  thing  is  true  in  the  digital  world.  The  digital  world  is  a  very  cruel  world.   It   doesn't   have   any   attachment   rituals,   you   don’t  have   any  connecting  of  the  eyes,  to  smile  and  nod  before  you  engage  in  interaction.  It   brings   out   the  meanest   instincts   in   people.   The  digital  world   is   a   cruel  world   and   the   online  world   and   Facebook.   It   started   off   being   incredibly  cruel  in  Harvard.  Facebook  is  its  always  been  a  cruel  world.  

                                                                          How   do   you   keep   the   child   safe   in   a   cruel  world?   That's   a   big   question.  Well,   do   you   hover?   Do   you   helicopter?   Do   you   try   to   change  circumstances?   Do   you   try   to   protect   them   in   this?   No.   Nature   gave   us  another   answer   and   that   other   answer   is   if  we   have   the   child's   heart,   it  automatically   shields   them   from   being   wounded   too   much   because   we  matter  most.  

                                                                          The   atrocities  we've   had   in   Canada,   the   Amanda   Todd,   the   Nova   Scotia,  these   were   examples   of   adolescence   who   were   peer   oriented   who   had  lost.  It  isn't  as  if  they  didn't  have  parents  who  didn't  love  them,  pardon  the  double   negative.   The   issue   was   far   deeper   in   this.   It   was   that   they   had  become  peer  oriented.  They  looked  to  peers  to  be  their  answer  and  so  the  love   of   their   parents   failed   them;   not   because   they   didn't   love   them  enough   but   because   the   child,   because   the   adolescence   they   got   so  wounded  and  wounded  two  the  quick  because  their  peers  mattered  more  than  their  parents.    This  is  a  phenomenon  I  am  speaking  about.  This  would  answer  the  helicoptering  as  well,  the  overprotectiveness.  

                                                                          If   we   had   confidence   that   we   could   indeed   keep   our   children   safe   in   a  wounding  world  and  if  we  knew  that  the  way  to  do  this  was  to  make  sure  that  we  cultivated  a  strong  enough  relationship  on  their  part  to  us,  that  we  had   their  hearts,  we  would  be  able   to   live   in   this  world  with  a  degree  of  confidence  that  we  could  keep  them  safe.  

 

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Jacqueline:                     We   have   people   who   are   really   hearing   you   about   the   importance   of  relationship  and  the  importance  of  attachment.  I  would  like  to  talk  a  little  bit   about   some   of   the   collecting   rituals   just   to   make   sure   that   people  understand  them.  I  have  heard  you  talk  before  about  how  nature  naturally  takes   care   of   maturation   if   we   have   the   right   conditions.   What   about  parents  whose  kids  are  a  little  bit  older  and  they  are  worried  because  they  know  that  they  didn't  start  out  right?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Well,  the  good  thing  about  relationship,  it's  never  too  late.  The  hard  thing  about  relationship  is  you  can't  make  somebody  want  to  be  with  you.  That's  the   hard   part.   You   can  make   it   easy   and   if   we   present   ourselves   as   the  answer  to  their  attachment  needs,  to  love  and  belonging,  to  significance.  If  we  take  the  attitude  of  nurturing  them,  more  times  than  not  the  child  will  begin  to  feed  at  our  table  again  to  look  to  us,  to  be  the  source  of  that  and  to  draw  them  back  in  relationship.  So  the  good  news  is  it's  never  too  late.  

                                                                          But  then  again  there  is  a  caveat.   It's  that  you  can't  make  somebody  want  to  be  with  you  and  that's  the  tragedy  of  relationships.    It's  not  as  if  you  say,  "Well  I  did  the  right  thing."  If  I  was  a  perfect  parent  would  I  have  the  right  results?  That's  not  the  way  it  goes  in  terms  of  relationship.  That's  not  the  way  it   is.  There  is  nothing  that  we  can  do,  no  pill  that  we  can  give  a  child  that  can  bring   their  defenses  down.    There    is  nothing   that  we  can  do,  no  pill,   no   trick   that   we   can   bring   them   into   right   relationship   with   us.  However,  when  we  do   the   things   that  make   it   easy   for   them   to   fall   into  attachment   with   us,   there   is   far   more   likelihood   of   success,   far   more  probability  of  success  than  failure.  

Jacqueline:                     I  know  that  one  of  the  things  you  talk  about,  you  explained  so  well  when  you   talked   about   the   six   levels   of   attachment,   is   the   fact   that   our  peers,  when   we   are   kids,   don't   meet   those   deeper   levels.   So   there   really   is  something  we  can  provide  that  peers  can't  and  that's  part  of  what's  in  our  favor  right?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Absolutely.  It's  not  safe  to  give  your  hearts  to  peers  because  again  you  risk  it   being  broken.   In   family  we  have  an  advantage.  We  have  an  advantage  and  we  know  that  advantage.   If   you   just   take   the  example,   if   you  deeply  instinctively  know  it,   if  your  four-­‐year-­‐old  would  come  to  you,  those  with  four-­‐year-­‐olds   and   say,   “Mommy   might   something   bad   happen   to   you?  Might  you  die  like  auntie  or  like  grandma?"  No,  we  have  the  answer  in  us.  

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If  we  have  any  intuition  at  all  we  would  answer  the  four-­‐year-­‐old,  “Honey,  don't  you  worry.  I  will  always  be  your  mother."  Which  is  true,  dead  or  alive  but  we  don't   get   into   that  part   because   they   are  not   ready   for   that  part  yet.  

                                                                          But  the  answer  is,  and  that  is  the  key  answer  and  what  family  has  to  offer  that  nobody  else  can  offer  is,  “I  will  always  be  your  father,  your  mother.  It  is   forever."  And   if   it's   forever   it  answers  the  conditions  by  which  children  give   their   hearts   and   that   gives   us   a   context   in   which   we   can   influence  them.  We  can  do  our  job  of  raising  them  to  their  potential.  So  it  is  this.  

                                                                          So   if  we  can  convince,  and  this   is  the  big  thing;  children  today  when  they  are  looking  at  their  parents,  they  are  facing  separation  all  over  the  place.  If  they  are  not  attached  deep  enough,   if   their  parents  are   sending   them  to  their  rooms  when  (they)  misbehave,  withdrawing  the  invitation  to  exist  in  my   presence   until   they   behave,   there's   all   kinds   of   ways   that   today's  parents  are  using  separation  as  a  tool.  That  is  something  we  should  never  have  done  because  the  whole  thing  about  parents  is  the  foreverness.  

                                                                          We  should  always  have  the  attitude  that  there  is  nothing  honey,  absolutely  nothing,   no  behavior,   and   attitude   that's   going   to   separate   you   from  my  love,  nothing.  And  when  the  child  can  experience  that  and  feel  it  and  that  becomes   true,   you   have   this   incredible   opening   within   the   child   to   a  deepening  in  relationship  that  gives  the  parent  what  it  is  that  they  need  to  work   with   whatever   problem   –   drug   addiction,   aggressive   behavior,  whatever   the   problem   is.   But   when  we   try   to   deal   with   these   problems  without  the  relationship,  we  don't  have  the  context  in  which  to  be  able  to  do  this.  

Jacqueline:                     Okay   so  we  will   get   to   collecting   rituals   in   a   second.   By   the  way,   for   the  people,  if  you  are  putting  questions  in,  at  the  top  of  the  hour  we  will  stop  and  we  will   stop   the   broadcast   but   I   will   point   to   resources   and   answer  some  of  these  questions,  so  do  know  that  we  will  get  to  you.  

                                                                          One  of  the  things  that  I  know  so  many  people  struggle  with  is  the  fact  that  in  terms  of  an  extended  family,  there  is  so  much  breakdown  in  families  and  there  is  so  much  rupture.  Can  you  talk  a  little  bit  about  that?  I  am  sure  that  some   of   that   is   even   caused   by   peer   orientation   that   our   parents  experienced.  Do  you  want  to  talk  to  us  a  little  bit  about  that  and  what  we  

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can  do  about  that?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Well,   again   there   is   the   good  news  here   is   that   a   child   really   only   needs  one  deep   loving  working   relationship   to  create   the  womb  for  maturation  to   result,   to   become   emergent,   adaptive,   to   be   able   to   realize   their  potential  as  humans.  The  psychological  womb  for  maturation  to  occur  can  be  quite  singular  and  that's  all  that's  required.  

                                                                          Usually   though,   it's   that   mom,   that   dad,   that   grandma,   that   aunt   that  needs  all  kinds  of  support.  So  we've  kind  of  looked  at  it  wrong.  We  thought  that  the  child  needed  all  kinds  of  support,  needed  all  kinds  of  players  when  in   actual   fact   no   one   is   enough.   But   that   person   in   our   society   needs   a  supporting  cast.  And  we  would  do  much  better  in  society  if  we  supported  that   adult   that   the   child  was  most   attached   to,   the  working   relationship  and  try  to  give  them  the  support  that  they  need  to  be  able  to  provide  the  conditions  that  are  conducive  to  the  unfolding  of  human  potential.  

                                                                          But  it  really  is  good  news  in  a  broken  world.  Many  parents  are  truly  alone  in   the   sense   they   lack  a   supporting   cast.  And   in   the   secularization  of  our  world   before   we   were   able   to   turn   to   our   synagogue,   our   mosque,   our  God,  in  the  secularization  we  are  cut  off  also  from  a  place  of  this  support  which   is  unfortunate.  Again,   it's   leading   to  more  and  more  parents  being  abandoned.  They  have  the  most  important  role  on  earth;  is  bringing  their  offspring   to   become   fully   human.   It's   not   easy   but   it   can   be   done.   It  certainly  can  be  done.  

                                                                          Single  parents,  parents  who  don't  have  outside  support  should  take  heart  in   the   fact   that   no,   it's   finding   your   confidence   that   you   are   your   child's  best   bet.   You   are   their   answer,   acting   as   if   that's   true.   The   source   of  belonging  as   I  usually  put   it   in   the  book  and   in  my  courses,  being  able  to  convey  to  the  child  the  invitation  to  exist  in  your  presence.  If  they  can  feel  it   your   delight   in   their   existence   and   their   presence.   If   there   is   no  conditions  on   that,   the   children  will   flourish  despite   the   fact   that  around  you  may  be  all  kinds  of  suffering  and  lack  and  loss.  This   is  a  condition  for  children  to  flourish,  when  they  can  bask  in  the  warmth  of  that  invitation  to  exist  in  someone  else's  presence.  

Jacqueline:                     One  of   the  many,   just  profoundly   transformational  points   that   I  got   from  you   very   early   on  was   that   all   of   us   have   issues   that   whether   there   are  

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even   developmental   issues,   learning   disabilities,   whatever.   But   also  personal  circumstances  that  we  have  to  overcome.  I  would  love  to  talk  to  that   because   the   single   parent   who   doesn't   have   a   lot   of   support   or  someone  who  is   in  a  marriage  but  not  much  supports,   I  mean  whatever's  going  on,  I  know  your  whole  concept  of  acceptance  utility  and  processing  that  has  phenomenal  implications  for  parents  as  well  as  the  kids.  Can  you  talk  to  us  about  that  and  then  I  promise  we  will  do  the  collection.  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Okay.   Nature   has   a   backdoor   to   growth,   development   which   is   very  fortunate  because  there  is  an  alternate  route.  If  the  conditions  aren't  ideal,  if   one  hasn’t   experienced   that   invitation   from  a  parent,   from  an   adult   in  one's   life,   there   is  suffering,   there   is  wounds  for  us  as  adults  as  well.  The  answer  to  this  is  very  interesting.  If  we  can  find  our  true  sadness,  our  true  tears  of  futility  about  the  things  we  cannot  change,  it  ends  up  transforming  us  so  that  we  can  handle  the  things  that  we  cannot  change  in  our  life.  

                                                                          And   so  when  we   are   up   against   the   things   that   are   beyond   our   control,  again  if  that  futility  is  felt   in  the  sense  of  tears  futility,  not  just  crying  and  upset  because  you  can  cry  or  be  upset  and  it's  not  in  a  sense  have  come  to  an   emotional   realization   that   I   can't   change   or   the   lack   of   invitation   to  somebody  has  for  me  or  that  they  didn't  want  to  know  me  or  those  kinds  of  things.  That  response  is  at  the  essence  of  our  human  adaptation.  When  we  respond   in  that  way  to  the  things  that  we  cannot  change  we  become  transformed  as  a  result  for  the  better  so  that  we  adapt  and  become  more  resilient  and  resourceful.  

                                                                          It's  very  simple,   it's  very  profound.   It   is  so   important  that  we  find  a  place  for   this   true   sadness   and  melancholy   in   our   life.   It   creates   a   tapestry   for  those  who  have  had  suffering  and  loss  and  lack  that  is  absolutely  essential.  And  it  is  the  lack  of  that  which  is  more  likely  to  lead  to  depression.    

                                                                          When   you   actually   can   find   your   tears   of   futility,   the   depression  will   lift.  People   have   confused   sadness   with   depression,   that's   not   what   it   is.  Depression  always  has  been  traditionally  before  the  doctors  got  a  hold  of  it,  always  understood  as  flattened  affect,  of  a  lack  of  movement.  And  when  you  find  your  tears  of  futility  everything  moves  again.  In  the  wake  of  it,  in  the  wake  of  our  grieving,   in   the  wake  of  our   sadness,   the  colors  become  brighter.  We  are  renewed  and  we  become  adaptive.  This  is  the  beauty,  the  wonderful   part   of   healing,   of   recovery   that   it   is   possible   and   it   is   always  

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possible  regardless  of  the  circumstances  that  we  face.  

Jacqueline:                     I  thought  that  was  so  important  to  talk  about.  I  know  that  me  learning  that  and  realizing  that  tears  were  healthy  was  so  important  because  I  was  in  a  period   where   I   was   bawling   and   bawling   and   bawling   and   bawling   and  counseling   and   really   thought   there   is   something   wrong   with   you.   And  then   I   realized  okay,   I   am   taking   the  back  door  and   I   am   taking   the  back  door   to   maturation.   And   slowly   but   surely   my   joy   returned   and   it's   a  profound   concept.   And   I   know   with   our   children   we   are   very   guarded  against   their   tears   so   if   we   get   them   crying   and   we   can   talk   about  that  attachment  element,  potentially  in  a  minute.  

                                                                          For   parents   we’re   wanting   to   start  at   ground   zero   and   build   that  relationship,   let's   talk   about   the   collecting   rituals   that   you   briefly  mentioned.  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Yes,  again  I've  had  to  put  a  word  to  those  because  we  lack  language  in  our  society  about  some  of  these  basics.  

                                                                          But  the  best  way  to  think  of  it  very  simply  is  the  greeting  ritual.  That  exists  and   not   only   across   all   cultures   but   in   many   mammal   cultures   as   well;  wolves,  bears,  elephants  and  so  on,  it's  amazing.  And  it  is  very  simple  is  the  idea  of  a  greeting  ritual.  

                                                                          What  is  happening  is  what  you  are  trying  to  do  is  you  are  trying  to  activate  the   attachment   instincts   in   another,   the   instinct   to   keep   you   close,   the  instincts  to  keep  the  relationship  dear  and  to  give  you  context  in  which  to  interact.   And   so   the   first   thing   that   we   usually   do   in   this,   not  mammals  now,   humans.   The   first   thing   that  we  do   is  we   try   to   collect   somebody's  eyes.  We  try  to  collect  their  attention.  And  the  reason  for  this   is  that  the  eyes   really   tell   us  whether  we   are   invited   to   exist   in   their   presence.   The  eyes  will  flatten  or  they  will  lighten  up  slightly  and  so  on.  

                                                                          Now  there  are  certain  cultures   in  which  this   is  not  allowed  and  there  are  certain  conditions;  a  very  shy  child,  a  very  damaged  child,  certain  cultures,  many  aboriginal  cultures,  many  Asian  cultures  you  must  never  collect  the  eyes.  

                                                                          And  here  you  collect  the  ears.  You  would  say  this  is  something  that  you  use  the  auditory,  not   the  visual   thing,   to  make  the   first  connection.  But  what  

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you  are  going  to  go  to  in  the  traditional  greeting  is  when  you  get  the  eyes,  the  next  thing  you  want  to  do  is  get  a  smile  because  a  smile  is  that  kind  of  indication  that  you  are  invited  to  come  close.  And  so  we  smile  to  get  their  smiles;   this  would   be   invitation,   this   is   the   second   phase   of   attachment.  We  also  say  something  that  will  make  them  smile.  

                                                                          We  do  everything  we  can  for  a  baby.  We  will  use  all  kinds  of  faces  and  so  on   to  get   them  to  smile.  But   this   is   the  essence,  we  want   to  get  a   smile.  And  the  third  part  of  this  is  we  usually  want  to  get  a  nod.  So  we  will  nod,  so  they  nod  or  we  will  say  something  that  makes  it  really  easy  to  nod  –  oh,  the  weather  has   changed,   it   is   sunny  out   today  or  we've  got  a   storm.  Or  are  you  wearing  your  pink  dress  today?  Or  something  that  makes  it  really  easy.  

                                                                          Now   if   you  want   to   find   a   child  whisperer   you  will   find   a  whisperer   that  whether  it  is  playground  supervisor,  a  teacher,  a  grandmother.  What  they  would   find   is  before  every   interaction  with   the  child,   that  person  will  get  the  eyes,  a  smile  and  a  nod  and  you  will  notice  that   it  would  be  so  much  part  of  the  dance.  Nobody  sees  that  part.  And  then  when  they  say  "I  would  like  you  to  help  me  set  the  table  or  would  you  put  your  clothes  over  here.  It's   time   to  go  into   to   the   school  now   the  bell  has   rung,"   you  have  much  greater  probability  of  the  child  wanting  to  be  good  for  you,  wanting  to  do  the   thing   that   agrees   and   all   of   these   kinds  of   things   and   you've   got   the  context.    That's  just  a  very  simple  illustration.  

                                                                          If  there  was  one  mantra  that  I  used  to  give  to  group  homes,  to  those  kinds  of  things   is  you  always  collect  before  you  interact.  You  collect  before  you  direct.  Now  don't   just  collect   to  be  able   to  get  your  child  put   their   shoes  away  because  if  you  do,  any  smart  child  is  going  to  figure  out  that  you've  got  a  method  to  your  madness,  that  you  are  doing  this.  But  the  idea  here  is  that   we   should   be   collecting   our   children   all   the   time   for   nothing   other  than  simply  to  build  relationship.  

                                                                          We  wouldn't  ever   think  of   interacting  with  our   friends  without   collecting  them  first.  And   if  we  try  to  get  their  eyes  and  we  couldn’t  get  their  eyes,  the  first  thing  that  would  occur  to  us  is  that  something  is  wrong.  And  the  first   thing   that   would   occur   to   us   is   that   something   is   wrong   in   the  relationship   and  we  would   go   to   take   a   look   at   that   and   see   if  we   could  repair  it  if  possible.  If  we  smiled  and  we  didn't  get  a  smile,  if  we  tried  to  get  

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a  nod  and  couldn't  get  a  nod,  again  the  first  thing  that  would  occur  to  us  is,  “Oh  my  goodness,  something  is  wrong  in  the  relationship."  And  we  would  go  into  repair.  

                                                                          What  I  tell  parents  over  and  over  again  when  I  was  still  doing  it  when  I  was  still   in   private   practice   is   you've   got   to   start   at   the   beginning.   You   can't  expect  to  parent  a  child,  to  raise  a  child  to  whom  you  cannot  collect.  You  must   be   able   to   collect   easily   and   you  must   always   collect   first   because  relationship  is  the  context  to  deal  with  any  problem,  any  situation,  to  bring  them  onside,  not  the  incident.  That's  wrong.  

                                                                          Today  parents  think   parenting   is   what   you   do   when   something   goes  wrong.  That's  not  what  parenting   is.  Parenting  has   to  do  with  working   in  the   context   of   a   relationship   because   that's  where   our   natural   power   is.  But  we  need  to  start  there.  We  need  to  start  by  being  able  to  get  the  eyes,  the  smiles  and  nods  even  of  our  adolescence.  And  because  this  speaks  to  the  relationship,  and   if   the  relationship   is  good  then  we  can  start  making  headway  on   some  of   the   issues;  on  getting  our   values  across  or  bringing  them  onside  with   a   good   intention  or   helping   them  deal  with   conflicting  feelings;  all  of  these  things  but  they  have  to  be  done  on  a  context  where  the  attachment  instincts  are  there.  

                                                                          By   the  way,   the  same   is   true   for  one's   spouse.  You  could   take   this   for  all  adult   relationships   but   because  we   are   responsible   for   our   children,   this  becomes  even  more  important.  

Jacqueline:                     Fabulous.  And   I  was  just  thinking  about  how  earlier   that   is  what  we  have  on  our  side,   is   that  children  nowadays  have  so   little  of   these  deep  needs  being  met  for  attachment.  I  experience  it  in  high  schools  that  there  is  yes,  the   kids   who   are   completely   turned   off   but   some   of   them   are   really  receptive   because   it's   neat   for   them   to   have   experience   of   having   that  invitation  to  exist  and  that  type  of  thing.  

                                                                          There   are   so  many   things   I   would   love   to   get   into.   Our   time   is   basically  done.   I   will   go   end   this   and   then   answer   some   questions   for   people  because  I  don't  want  to  leave  people  hanging.  Do  you  have  any  nugget  you  could   leave   because   when   we   talked   about   the   utility   process,   I   know  aggression  is  so  on  the  rise  and  I  know  it  is  so  deeply  linked.  Do  you  have  anything  you  could  say  either  on  that  or  do  you  feel  like  there's  a  different  

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way  you  would  like  to  end  this  interview?  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Well  when  attachment  works,  the  aggression  will  melt   itself  when  a  child  finds   their   tears   and  when   there   is   not   so  much   attachment   frustration.  But  I  think  the  basic  thing  is  I  would  like  to  say  that  the  child/adult/parent  relationship   is  an  ancient  dance.   It's  one  of  the  most   important  dances,  a  dance  you  can't  orchestrate.  It's  a  dance  and  when  the  relationship  is  right,  a  dance  evolves  out  of  that  and  so  whatever  energy  you  put  into  it  should  be  put  into  where  it's  going  to  deliver  the  best  dividends  and  that  certainly  is  in  a  relationship.  

                                                                          And  I  don't  know  if  you  were  mentioning  it  besides  the  book.  I  created  an  organization   to  be  able   to  offer   the  20   courses   I   created.   I   don't   know   if  you   mentioned   that   but   they   can   access   that  at  www.NeufeldInstitute.com.  

Jacqueline:                     Absolutely.  And  Rose,  if  you  actually  could  put  that  in  the  chat  box,  if  you  have  any  issues  with  spelling  it  and  I'm  realizing  we  didn’t  talk  about  that,  it's  actually  Neufeld  and  then  Institute.com.  I  can  write  that  afterwards.  

                                                                          Dr.  Neufeld  I  am  just  profoundly  grateful  to  have  you  on  here.  I  actually  am  also  going  to  mention  your  bio,  after  we  say  goodbye.  I  will  formally  need  it   just   to   make   sure   that   everyone   is   clear   of   your   stature   and   how  respected  and  how  influential  you  are  in  the  world.  We  are  really  honored  to  have  you  on  here  today.  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Thank  you.  

Jacqueline:                     Thank  you  so  much.  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   Thank   you   for   the   opportunity   to   share   this.   Hopefully   it   can   make   a  contribution   to   others   and   thank   you   again   for   the   affirmation   of   the  contribution  that  it's  made  to  your  parenting  journey.  

Jacqueline:                     Okay  thank  you.  Okay  so  I  will  say  goodbye.  

Dr.  Neufeld:                   And  I  will  sign  off  here.  I  put  my  glasses  on  and  see  if  I  can  find  these  things  here  so  I  will  sign  off.  There  we  are  okay  bye-­‐bye.  

 

Jacqueline:                     Goodbye  for  now.  

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                                                                          So  please  send  people  to  the  www.greatparentingshow.com  page  and  also  join   us   on   Facebook.   Love   to   get   your   testimonials   if   you   share   them  at  support@greatparentingshow.com  it  would   be   fantastic   because   really  that's  how  we  will  get  more  and  more  people  and  we  will  ricochet  things  out  and   stop   this  global  want  warming   that's  happening  unfortunately   in  our  printing  world.  So  I  will  say  goodbye  for  now  and  see  you  next  time.  

 

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