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Income Tax [21 DECDiBER, 1914.] Bill. ~7
over £800. In Queensland it was Is. on dividends, and Sd. on u~dist.ributed profits. For outside companies, the rate in that State was Is. on ail profits. In Tasmania the rate was Is. in the £1 on :tIl income. In \Vestern Australia, for companies trading only in that Staw the rate was Is. on all dividends declared. For companies trading in Western Australia and elsewhere it w.as Is. on net local profits. It was expected that the additional amounts to be received from the increased tax in this Bill would be: -1915-16, £100,000; 1916-17, £120,000; 1917-18, £130,000; 1918-19, £135,000. That was, the new revenue which would be re· ceived in exce,ss of what the receipts would have been if the present rates were maintained would amount to the totals stated. The exemption of the incomes of people engaged in the war, nurses as well as sailors and soldiers, would he regarded as reasonable, and should be readily approved. The allowances of premiums paid under the Workers' Compensation Act, and the deduction of the Federal land tax paid in 1913 were provisa.ons whose fairness should commend them also to the favour of the House. The taxation of the incomes from trust estates at the property rat.e had been the custom from the inception of the Act. The recent decision of the Privy Council case upset the pl'actice. The tax had always been ,col1ected in the belief that the interpretation of the Act under which the property rate was charged was correct, and was in keeping with the intention of Parliament. Our High Court upheld this view. The Privy Council held otherwise. The law would now be brought into line with the view held and acted upon for so many years. The non-maintainment of that view would mean a loss of £30,000 a year in rev;enue. Any ,other information which honorable roem bers desired he would be pleased ,:to furnish in 'Committee.
The Hon. J. K. MERRITT said he wished to refer to the provision in the Bill with regard to the rate for the taxation of income from trust estates. The HOJilorary Minister had said that the intention of Parliament was that trustees and beneficiaries of trusts should pavon all ,their income tbe same rate as if it were income derived from ,property. Being a comparatively new member of the Houoo, he did not know what power ,the Council had to :deBlI with clauses in .a money Bill, but., l00king .at the matter fairly and
squarely) he did' not think that bene· ficiaries under a will should have to pay on income derived from personal exertion the same .rate as was fixed for income which was the produce of property. In the, case cited by the Minister, the income was a large one. But the principle was to be applied to estates of all kinds. It was quite understandable that in many cases such·a provision would bear harshly on beneficiaries of smaller estates. .J f people were left money derived from personal exertion, it did not seem fair that the rate in respect to it should be the same as if it were the produce of property. Where the money clearly came from ,per-· sonal exertion, it should not be taxed so heavily. He hoped the Committee would take the matter up, and make representations to the other place, with a view of seeing :vhether justice could not be done. It was a provision which would bear harshly on many people. The principle on which it was based was wrong, and he hoped the Government would recognise the fairness of his contention.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time ..
and committed pro forma.
ADJDURN:Th1:ENT. HOUR OF MEETING.
The Hon. \V. L. BAILLIEU (Honorary Minister) moved, by leave-
That the Council meet to-morrow at halfpast three o'clock.
He said he was asking honoraple members to meet earlier than usual because there seemed to 'be a reasonable 'Chance of con·, c1uciiIl;g the business of the session tomorrow.
The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at three minutes
to ten 0' clock.
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at twentyone minutes to three o'cloc.k p.m.
INCOME TAX BILL.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) pr.esent€d a message born His Excell~ncy the Governor, rec.ommending
388 Income Tax Bill. [ASSEMBLY. ] Stamp D'uties.
that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated Revenue for the purposes of the Bill to declare the rates of income tax for each of the five years ending on the 31st day of December, 1919, and to amend ,and continue the Income Tax Acts.
The House having gone into Committee to consider the message,
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premt.er) moved-
That it is expedient that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated Revenue for the purposes of the Bill to declare the rates of income tax for each of tht five years ending on the 31st day of December, 1919, and to amend and continue the Income Tax Acts.
The motion was agreed to, and the resolution was reported to the House, and adopted.
ADMINISTRATION AND PROBATE DUTIES BILL.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) presented a message from His Excellency the Governor, recommending that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated Revenue for the purposes of the Bill relating to duties pa,yahle under the Administration and Probate Duties Acts, and to amend the said Acts.
The House having ,go'11e into Committee to consider the message,
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved-
That it is expedient that an appropriation be madc from the Consolidated Reyenue for the purposes of a Bill relating to duties payable under the Administration and Probate Acts and to amend the said Acts.
The motio'11 was agreed to, and the resolution was reported to the House and adopted.
FOODSTUFFS AND COMMODITI,ES BILL.
Mr. MACKINNON (Attorney-General) moved for leave to introduce a Bill to continue the Foodstuffs and Commodities Act 1914. He said-This is one of two Bills to continue two Acts connected with the regulation of tHe prices of food -the Foodstuffs and Commodities Act which was drafted by the Federal Government and passed by us in the last Parliament, and the Price of Goods Act 1914.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then brought in, and reHd
a first time.
PRICE OF GOODS BILL. Mr. l\1ACKINNON (Attorney-Gene
ral) moved for leave to introduce a Bill to amend and continue the Price of Goods Act 1914.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then brought in, and read
a first time.
PUBLIC SERVICE BILL. Mr. MURRAY (Chief Secretary)
moved for leave to introduce a Bill to further amend the Public Service Acts.
The motion was agreed- to. The Bill was then brought in, and read
a first time.'
HAvVKERS AND PEDLERS BILL.
:1\11'. MURRAY (Chief Secretary) moved for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Hawkers and Pedlers Act.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then brought in, an~
read a first time.
ALBERT PARK LAND BILL. Mr. HUTCHINSON (Minister of
Ap'riculture) (in the absence of 1I1:r. L~wsoN) moved for leave to introduce a Bill to revoke the permanent reservation and Crown grant of portion of certain land situated in the municipal districts of the city of South Melbourne and the city of St. Kilda as a site for a public park. _
The motion was a,greed to. The Bill was then brought in, and read
a first time.
RATING ON UNIMPROVED VALUES BILL.
Mr. HUTCHINSON (Minister of Agriculture) (in tM absence of Mr. LA WSON) moved for leave to introduce a. Bill to amend section 2 and section 4 of the Rating on Unimproved Values Act 1914.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then brought in, tl,nd
read a first time.
STAMP DUTIES.
The House having resolved itself into Committee of Ways and Means,
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved-
1. That from and after the first day of July, One thousand nine hundred and fifteen, and
Stamp Duties. [21 DECEMBER, 1914.J Stamp Duties Bill. 389
until the thirtieth day of June, One thousand nine hundred and nineteen, inclusive, there shall be charged for the use of His Majesty, his heirs and successors, upon and for-
(a) the several instruments specified in the third schedule to the Stamps Act 1890 as amended by any Act, except instruments included under the heading, "1. Bills of exchange and promissory notes," in the expression, "Bill of exchange, payable on demand ( cheques, &c. ) " ; and
( b) the several instruments specified under the following headings in the schedule to the Stamps Act 1892 as amended by any act; _" I. Bill of exchange and promissory note" ; "V. Exchange and partition or division of any real property for any other real property where any consideration is given for equality"; "VII. Receipt or discharge given for or upon payment of money amounti ng -to £2 or upwards"; and "VIII. Settlement or gift, deed of"
additional stamp duties equal in amount to the stamp duties specified in the said schedules, with th~ same exemption as in the said schedules respectively. .
2. That on and after the first day of July, One thousand nine hundred and ftfteen, there shall be charged and paid for the use of His Majcsty, his heirs and successors, upon and for the several instruments hereinafter specified the several stamp duties hereinafter specifted;- 8. d.
Bill of exchange (cxcept a bank note) drawn in Victoria and payablc at any place beyond the limits of Victoria, and bill of cxchange ( except a bank note) drawn at any place beyond the limits of Victoria and payable in Victoria. Where such a bill of exchange is pay-able on demand (cheques, &c.) 0 1
Upon and for every other kind of such bill of exchange whats.'lever-
Where the amount or value of the money for which the bill is drawn does not exceed £25 0 6
Exceeds £25 and does not ex-ceed £50 1 0
]~xcceds £50 and does not ex-ceed £75 1 6
Exceeds £75 and does not ex-reed £100 2 ()
ExccC'ds £100, then for every £50 of the amount or :value, and also for any fractional part of £50 of snch amount or value .. 1 0
with the same exemptions as under the heading, "I. Bills cif .exchange and promissory notes," in the third schedule to the Stamps 4~Ct, 1890 as amended by any Act.
The motion was agreed to, and the resolution was reported to the House, and adopted.
STAMP DUTIES BILL. Authority having been give'll to Sir
Alexander Peacock and Mr. Murray to introduce a Bill to carry out the resolution,
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) brought up a Bill "to further amend the Stamps Acts," and moved that it be read a first time.
The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a first time.
ADMINISTRATION AND PROBATE DUTIES BILL.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said-The purpose of the Bill is to continue, for the year 1915, the administration and probate duties at present in force, which l1ave been in existence since the year 1903. There is a special provision in the measure with regard to the estates of any persons who die from inj uries inflicted, accident, or disease, while on Naval or Military service with His lVlajesty's Navy or Army, or under the provisions of any Acts of the Commonwealth Parliament during the present war. It is provided that in such cases no duty shall be payable where the final halance of the estate does not exceed £5,000, a'nd that, if the final balance exceeds £5,000, no duty shall be payabl~ in respect to the first £5,000. Of course these exemptions will only apply to cases w here the estate is left, to the widow, or widower, or a lineal descendant, or a lineal ancestor of the deceased. If the estate is left to a complete outsider. there will be no exemption. I am sure that this provision will commend itself to all honorable membe.t,s. I may say that it is very difficult to estimate what amount will he received in aaministration and probate duties.
Mr. ROGERS.-It was pretty hard last year.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-We fell in last year.
l\h. TouTcHER.-It won't pay to die now.
Mr. ,VARDE.-It will be mur.h harder to estimate the amount, owing to these exem ptions.
Sk ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Yes. "Ve estimated that we will receive from the administration and probate duties £510,000 in this financial year. The, results from the first half of the
390 Administration and Probate [ASSEMBLY.] . Duties Bill.
financial year give us every prospect of getting that amount. .
J\ir. ELMSLIE.-You wIll be pulled through by the dead men.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and committed. Olauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. Clause 3-(Provision for duties under
Administration and Probate Acts in case of persons on naval Or military service) .
Mr. OMAN.-The Premier has explained that in the case of the estates of persons who are killed, or who die as a result -of injuries or disease while on active service, no duty w}ll be charged on the first £5,000. I think that on p.states over £5,000 only half rates should have to be paid on the balance of the estate. That would oe only a fair thing.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier).-I would ask the honorable member for Hampden not to. press his suggestion at this stage. I think that what the Government have done will meet the views of honorable members.
Mr. WARDE.-An exemption of £5,000 is a very good exemption.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-We thought that we ought to make -this coneflssion. 'Vhilst we want to get probate duties, we hope that none of the men going to the .front will die.
Mr. OMAN.-I would point out to the Premier that a number of men have gone, or are going, to the front, on whose estates, in the natural course of events, no probate duty would be payable probably for the next forty years. I. think the least we can do to mark our appreciation of the action of these men, who are taking the risk of 4efending the Empire, is to show that we are not going to place penalties against their estates should they be killed. It is all very well to make an exemption in th-e case of estates valued up to £5.,000. That is quite in keeping with the land tax provisions in this State. I do not approve of these exemptions at all. My proposition .that only half rates should have to be paid in the case of est.ates valued at over £5,000 is a fair one. When the Premier
. framed his Estimates, he could haa.'dly have taken into aocount the estates of men .going to the war. There are quite a number of wealthy men from my -own district. who aTe :at the front ·at the pre-
sent moment. I would ask the Premier to r~consider his decision, because I think the proposition I have· made is one that would commend itself to the people of this State.
1\1r. ELMSLIE.-The clause commences with the words--
'Vhere any person dies from injuries inflicted, accident occurring, or disease contracteu (within twelve months before death) while on naval or military sel'vice-Reading that hurriedly~ it seems to me that if a man gets killed rigl1t away the exemption will not apply. If a man gets shot, as soon as he goes on to the battlefield, I do not think his estate will come under this provision. .
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I think it would.
Mr. TouTcHER.-The injury would be inflicted within twelve months before deat •.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I think the twelve months' period applies to death from disease.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-Supposing a shell comes along and kills a man instantly ~
Mr. VVARDE.-The injury will be inflicted.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-How can it be' said that the injury .is inflicted before death ~ It seems to me tha~ the wording of the clause will cut out from th~ exemption the estate of a man who. is killed straightway.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) .-1 think the twelve months' period applies to death from disease. Of course 1 am only a layman, but to me the clause seems to read all right. Some of our nurses, not in the firing line, might contract disease. They would be serving the Commonwealth equally with those in the fighting line'.
Mr. MENZIES.-I really think there is a good deal in what the honorable member for Hampden has said. Why such a distinction should be drawn between estates unde.r £5,000 in value and over £5,000 in value, it is very hard to understand. In the case ·of many of the men who volunteered for service~ in' the ordinary course of events th~ Treasurer would not receive any probate duties this y€ax. I admit that the exemption in the case of .e-states not exceediIl:g £5,'000 isa good thing, and I think it is a fair proposal that, in the case of -estates ·over .£5;,000 in v.alue, half the dutyon·the 'balance should be r.emitted.
· Administration and Probate [21 DECEMBER, 1914.J Duties Bill. 391
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The men ,going are nearly all unmarried men.
Mr. MENZIES.-Tbere are a few married men going from my own district. In my opinion, the request of the honorable member for Hampden is a fair one.
Mr. PRENDERGAST.-I think that the exemption proposed by the Government is a fair one. I suppose that nearly .all the estates of men who are killed will be under £5,000 in value. In the -cases where they are a few thousand pounds above £5,000 in value, the amount of duty will be infinitesimal. The exemption that is proposed is a justifiable one.
Mr. KEAST .-1 think the Premier' has done very well by incorporating this -clause in the Bill. I attended a sendoff to some soldiers recently, and they told m~ to convey their sincere thanks to the Premier for making this provisiqn.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-They must have had small estates.
Mr. KEAST .-Tn the case of an estate of over £5,000' in value, something should be paid to the State. I think the P~emier has dealt very fairly with the question. I did' ~ot think about giving this exemption myself, and I give the Government credit for having thought it out. It is a humane proposal, and is in the interests of the families of men who are going to the war.
Mr. \V ARDE.-In the case of men ,on active service, who leave estates of ,over £5,000 in value, I think their families will· be pretty well provided for. There are certain pension rights which will accrue to them. Their families will be very well provided for. The Commonwealth has made provision for the widows and children of these men. These widows and children will be entitled to -certain pensions according to the rank 'of the men. If a family receives £250, I do not think they can 'say the community is dealing harshly with them. I am waiting to see the day when the English Probate Act will be followed here, so that a larger amount of probate will pass into the hands of the State, and when the opinion of Mr. Carnegie, that a man who leaves wealth to his family is doing an injustice to the community, will be more generally recognised here. I think the Government have gone as far as one can reasonably expect them to go. The com-
munity is sadly in need or money to carryon its various obligations. These are the only sections of the community who enjoy any remission of taxation at present. The necessities of the time call for increased amounts to the Treasuries of the Commonwealth and the State. Some people have complained that they have not been called upon to pay more in the way of income tax.
}\tIro MENZIES.-It is not a concession j it is a recognition.
Mr. W ARDE.-It is a concession, hecause other people are not getting it. The COIPmonwealth pension provides for the payment of £156 to the widow, with £13 for each child under fourteen yean ofeage, so that we cannot say that reasonable provision has not been made.
Mr. OMAN .-It is not to apply under '£5,000.
Mr. vVARDE.-Of course it is. A certain amount is set asiae for the upkeep of the family, and after that it is considered that there is no· hardship in charging the duty. Everyone did expect that the probate duties would be increased, and if the Commonwealth Government had not taken the matter in hand, our Treasurer would have proposed increased rates. Instead of that, he is making a' remission, and I think honorable members ought to be satisfied.
The clause was agreed to. The Bill was reported witliout amend
ment, and the report was adopted. On the motion of Sir ALEXANDER.
PEACOCK (Premier), the Bill was read a third time.
LAND TAX BILL.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said~Some remarks I made on a pr~vious Bill are applicable' to this Bill. which provides for ~the re-imposition and the collection of the land tax for the calendar year 1915. The rate is -~d., and the minimum amount of -taxation is 2s. 6d. I asked the Commissione,!" of Taxes to let me know how the valuations stood. I find that the total valuations to date amount to 310,000, and that about 75,000 have yet to be made.
Mr. \VARDE.-Have these to he made by the Departmental ·officers~
Sir ALEXANDER PEA"COCK.-Yesj and in some cases re-valuations may have to be made.
392 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.
Mr. OMAN .-Do you think the valuations have been made as rapidly as they might have been'
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-There has been some aelay. The estimated revenue for the current year is £300,000, and that is somewhat below what we have received in a normal year. Honorable members recognise that this is an exceptional year, and that we must not unduly press for payment of the tax in some cases. 'Vhere the Commissioner is satisfied that there is a difficulty on account of the bad season, or for other reasons, he will not unauly press for payment. I Itave expressed that view to him, and I feel that it is the view of honorable members generafly. The de~t is, of course, a debt against the property. There is another point brought in in clause 3. There has been friction in re-. gard to the taxation or settlements of land, that is to say that no consideration has been given where the settlement
. has been made in good faith. Under the present law, the Commissioner had no option. If a transfer was not for a valuable consideration, he must impose the tax as if there was no transfer. The clause states-
Notwithstanding anything in the Land Tax Acts where the Commissioner is satisfied that any settlement grant, assignment, transfer or conveyance of land, although not made for ,,:t]uable consideration, has been made in good faith, and not for the purpose of evading the p:tyment of tax, he may, for the purposes of the Land Tax Acts, amend the assessment roll in accordance with such settlement grant, asRignnll'nt, transfer, or conveyance. So that the taxpayer will have to satisfy the Commissioner.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-That is family transfer ~
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Yes. Cases were brought up in t,he House, and cases were brought under my notice where the transfers had been -bona fide. We should ~ encourage such transfers. 'Vhere a man has a good property, it is desirable that he should divide it up amon,gst his family, rather than allow the feeling to exist that some of the family are waiting for him to disappear. It would be better from a family point of view and a State point of view. The Commissioner assured me that he was perfectly satisfied that the transfers in certain cases me·nt1.oned to him were uon{t fide.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodne,y).-The State loses nothing by them.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-No. \Ve know from experience that the «
Commissioner is not likely to make any remissions unless he is satisfied.
Mr. 1\1. K. McKENZIE (U1Jpel' GoulbUl'n).-\Ve would never suspect him of doing that.
:Mr, ELMsLIE.-Perhaps, in this case, the sight to do ill deeds may make ill deeds done.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I do not think so. There were some cases mentioned in the House, and honorable members were satisfied that such a power as this should be given to the Commissioner, It is to be left entirely to him, and he will have to be satisfied that the settlement is not made with the object of evading ~he tax. There are two other matters that I should have announced on the Estimates. We are making some changes in the office. Mr. House, who has been Deputy Commissioner, is being promoted to a vacancy in the Intestate Estates Office, and there will be some changes in the Land Tax Office. \Ve had a good deal of discuesion concerning the definition of unimproved land values and the difference between our Act and the Commonwealth Act. It has caused a good deal of friction, and I am pleased to be able to say, however much we may differ politically with the Commonwealth Government, that we are working together in the interests of the people, I am very hopeful that when Parliament opens again we shall be able to come to an arrangement to save expense to both Governments and to work more with one another, just as in connexion with the electoral law. It will prevent a good deal of friction, and save the. people from unnecessary expenditure. \Vith regard to this measure, I may say that it reimposes the same rates as before, with the new provision which I have already referred to. I may mention that. the Commonwealth Land Tax Act gives the Commonwealth Commissioner somewhat similar power to what we are giving our Commissioner in this. measure.
Mr, ELl\t[SLIE.--.:I desire to say just a few words in order to make our position on this (the Opposition) side of the House quite clear. It must be distinctly understood that in allowing this measure to go through, and in taking no action to debate it or move any amendment, we must not on that account be regarded
Land Tax [21 DECEIfBER, 1914.J Bill. 393.
as believers in the incidence of this taxation. I think it is necessary to make an explanation of this kind, as in the near future we may be charged with having voted in a direction that we were not in favour of. Under the circumstances, however, we do not intend to raise any objection to the Bill.
Mr. :M:ACKEY.-I desire to congratulate the Premier on the proposed cha·nge as to unimproved value. Unquestionably, at the present time, taxpayers are being taxed not only· on the unimproved, but also on part of the improved value·. I understand from the Premier that it is desired to make our Act and the Federal Act come into line, and I think tha~ is satisfactory. There is another matter to which I would like to call the Premier's attention, and that is the position of land subject to mortgage. \Vhen the present Act was passed, section 50 provided that in the case of the capital value of any land subject to mortgage not exceeding £3,000, that is, the improved value, there should be a deduction made equal to one-fortieth of the interest payable on the mortgage. The object of this was that the Premier should not get the tax twice over. I would point out. that both the mortgagor and mortf,agee are interested in the land, and the mortgagee has to pay under the income tax. Speaking generally, he was assessed at 6d. in the £l-that would be the average assessment--and that was deducted from the land tax. But this was made to apply in express terms only to mortgages existing on the 30th September, 1910. Now, it, has oome under my notice that many mortgages existing at that time have since been renewed, and these have been regarded as new mortgages, and the concession has not been continued in those cases. It seems to me that this is a very harsh readin,g of the section. I would suggest to the Premier that not merely should this matter be remedied, because it constitutes a real genuine grievance, but the Premier should also take into account the continuance of the deduction in the case of the mortgages. It would only apply in the cade of the smaller class of owners of land in the city and country. \Vhen their land is mortgaged, it means that ~hey are in difficulties, and this deduction of one-fortieth of the interest paid on the mortgage, while it means only a small matter to the Treasury, means a.
Second Ses.~ion HJl4.-[L5]
grea~ deal in the case of persons who are In difficulties. The Treasurer is at present being paid twice--by the mort· gagor and by the mortgagee. I hope that the Premier will take into consideration the two points I have referred tothat is the case of mortgages that are renewed, and also the case of the deduction to which I have alluCled.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I will certainly look into the matter.
Mr. l\IENZIES.-I am very pleased, indeed, that the Premier lias seen fit to brin,g forward clause 3 of this Bill. The House will recollect that a promise was made by the late Premie·r (Mr. Watt) that some amendment of the Act would be introduced to enable the Commissioner to discharge what was generally recognised as a fair claim, if it appeared he had not that power already under the Act. Another matter which I wish to bring under the attention of the Premier is the fact that there is dissatisfaction-throughout my constituency, at any rate- with regard to the land tax assessment notices which have been sent out. I believe in one centre, which I recently visited, there are thirty or forty of these assessment notices which have been sent to owners, and in connexion with which there is great dissatisfaction. I have, for instance, liere, one out of quite a number which were handed to me on my visit, and I am told that it is a sample of the kind of notices that have been issued. There is a block of land, 767 acres 3 roods 3 perches inexistence, and. on the notice of the annual value, the land is assessed at £253, the unimproved value at £1,458, and the value of the improvements at £1,277. The capjtal value of this is entered at £4,735. This is evidently a blunder, and the amount should have been £2,735. Again, there is a case' of 145 acres of Bcru b land which was purchased a few years ago for £80, and which the owner would be very pleased to sell to-day for £100. In this case, the a·nnual value is set down at £253-that is to say, the value of 767 acres of .good selected land. Of course, this is evidently also a blunder. The capital value is set down at £316; the unimproved value at £276, and the value of the improvements at £400. Here we have the capital value set down at £316 for a block of land which the owner would be pleased to sell for £100. Anyone who .looks at these
3J4 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.
assessment· notices must see that they contain pretty bad bl nnders, and. the farmers cannot understand why Government officers should make such grievous mistakes. There is a very general desire, in my constituency, at any rate, that an Appeal Court should be called into existence, so that many of the great differences which exist between what the owners consider to be the -fair value, and the value set down in the assessments sent out, might be cleared up. In the case of a small township allotment, the unimproved value is set down at £480, where the outside value would be about £30. I can assure the Premier that there are quite a number of instances of the same kind, and I think the Premier should consider whether the necessity has not arisen for the creation of an Appeal Court, for which provision is made in the Land Tax Act.
l\fr. HOGAN.-I quite agree with the honorable' member for Lowan that some of the valuers have palpably blundered in their work. One case of the kind has been brought under my notice recently. A man owned a piece of land, about onehalf of which was in one valuer's district, and the balance in another valuer's district. The half which was in ·the Bungaree district was valued by the valuer there at £14 an acre, while the balance was valued by the other valuer-in the Ballan district-at £5 an acre.
Mr. R. McKENZIE (Rodney).-Was the land of the same quality in both districts ~
Mr. HOGAN.-Not quite, but very nearly. There m~ght have been a difference of £1 an acre, but in the valuations s:mt out there was a difference of £9 an acre between the valuations of the two valuers. The man wno valued the land at £5 an acre was correct; whereas the man who valued the balance at £14 per acre was entirely wrong-ridiculously wrong. .
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK. - A difference of £9 ~
:Mr. HOGAN. - Yes; a difference of £9 an acre in the valuation of two different valuers. The valuer in the BalIan shire. val ued the part in the BalIan shire at £5, and the valuer in the Bungal'ee shire valued the other half, in the Bungaree, at £14. I know the land, and I have no hesitation in saying that the valuation of the Bungaree valuer is entirely ridiculous.
Mr. LEMMON. - Was that appealed a.gainst?
Mr. HOGAN.-Yes. Mr. LEMMoN.-What was the decision? l\{r. HOGAN. - It has not been de-
. cided yet. Some of the valuers may have been able to value something, but not land.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCR.-I am afraid I have to agree with the honorable member.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and committed. Clause l-(Short title). Mr. MENZIES.-There IS one little
matter I overlooked when speaking Oh
the Bill. Here is a case where the payel of the tax is told that the amount he i~ held to have overpaid has been placed to his credit for 1915. It seems that the practice of doing that is growing up in the Department. It is rather an extraordinary method of financing. A man is told that the amount is placed to credit against next year's tax, but on the notice taxpayers receive they are told, in regard to the payment of the tax, that if it is not paid at due date there will be an extra charge.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK. - I do not think he has much to growl at.
The clause was agreed to, as were also clauses 2 and 3.
The Bill was reported without amendment, and the report was adopted.
On the motion of Sir ALEXANDEI{ PEACOCK (Premier), the Bill was then read a third time.
IN001{E TAX BILL.
Sir ALEXA,NDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said - I should like to call the attention of honorable members to the fact that there are six principal provisions in this Bill. The first provides for the collection of the tax for the calelldar year 1915 on this year's rates, and on the same conditions as "ith the other Bills we have passed.. Up to £200 an income is free from tax, and there is au exemption of £150 on incomes from £201 to £500. Then, in accordance with an announcement I made in the Budget, there is provision for the collection of
. the tax for the four calendar years end-
Income Taz [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 395
ing 1919, at the rates mentioned by mf1 in the Budget statement. The exemptions are to be exactly as before, but there is an increase in the tax on incomes over £500. Thero is an increase of 1d. in the £1 on all incomes over £500 derived from personal exertion, and 2d. in the £1 011 incomes derived from property. As I stated ill the Budget, that is part of the provision which is being made for the payment of the bonds, the Bill for which was passed last week. This incl'c;:tse is on incomes over £500, I want honorable members to note.
:Mr. OMAN.-Why over £500? Sir ALEXANDER PEACOOK.-The
honorable member means it should be on something under ~
1fr. OMAN.-Yes. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK. - 1
will deal with that later on. Then ther.;} is another provision somewhat similar to that in the ProbJ te· Duties Act, and that is an exemption from the tax of those people who are serving in the war. Then we also make provision to insure the taxation on incomes from trust estates at the property rate. The provision for allowing a deduction from income of those of our people serving in the war will not only apply to soldiers and sailors, but to nurses and any others who may be on service. Then there is a provision allowing a deduction from income of any premiums paid under the Workers' Oompcnsation Act. I think that is fair. Then there is provision by which the Goyermuellt honours the promise made some time ago that the Federal land tax paid ill 1913 may be allowed as a deduction in next year's income tax assessments. We put a Bill through this year for that purpose, but it was somewhat defective. Those are the principal provisions of this Bill. I want to recapitulate what I said when making the Budget statement. The Government recognises, and the House has recognised by adopting the Budget, that it would be unwise to impose any additional taxation burdens during this financial year. The principle we have adopted is a sound one. We do not want to add to the. sacrifices the taxpayer has to make at a time of reduced production [lnd reduced income. But I want to draw the attention of honorable members to the fact that the increase in the tax during the four following years is an endeavour
[15J-~
to raise the additional revenue which we shall need, without putting .additional pressure on individuals with small incomes or undue additional pressure on those who enjoy the larger incomes. We spread the increased taxation over a period of four years. I anticipated the observation made by the honorable member for Hampden, that we m~ght have started with the increased taxation on a lower income than that of £501. I can assure honorable members that, after I saw that the opportunity of getting anything additional from the probate duties was gone, on account of the action of the Federal Parliament in imposing Federal probate duties, I lookell round to see where I could get additional income without pressing on the taxpuyer~. We decided to spread the addition over a period of foul' years. ~f you bring the amount on which the additional taxation is imposed below £500 you have to consider the hardship that would be inflicted in putting the taxation on the lower amount of income, and in addition to that you have to remember that by lowering the taxable income limit there would be a good deal of expense, and that It would not bring in much money. Honorable members will recognise that when they know the figures. I have particulars of the rates paid and the returns, and. although we arc imposing this addition;!l taxation, our taxation will not be as higb aB that of the sister States of New South Wales and Queensland.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper GoulbU1'n) . -As high in the exem ptiori ?
Sir ALEXANDER PEAOOOK. - As high in the amount we take from the taxpayer with an income over £500. I have all the figures for every_ rate-from £201 to £300, from £301 to £400, from £401 to £500, and from £501 to £1,000. The figures are rather complicated, but they will show the point .I have madt3. Take the incomes from £201 to £300. I do not think anybody would say that we should impose additional taxation ou them. From 18,491 taxpayers we get only £8,011. Then take the incomes from £301 to £400. There are 7,957 taxpayers, and we get from them £7,387. In regard to incomes from £401 to £500, there are only 4,303 taxpayers, and we get from them £6,145; or take the incomes between £301 and £500, as that might be in the
396 Income Tax , [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.
minds of some honorable members. The matter was considered by my colleagues and myself. There are 12,360 taxpayet"~ receiving incomes between £301 and £500, and they pay £13,400. I am leaving incomes between £200 and £300 out of consideration. .
Mr. OMAN.-'Vould that not be an argument for exempt.ion ~
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-We have an exemption of £150, which is absolutely free.
Mr. OMAN.-Could not the same argument be used in favour of am exemption of £500 ~ S~ ALEXANDER PEACOCK.
They are already paying income tax. Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goul
bllrn).-Have you returns in respect of salaries between £501 and £600, and so on 1
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The figures in respect to taxpayers between £501 and £1,001 show that there are 6,636, and the percentage of individual tax paid by grades is 22.6. As a matter of fact, 25 per cent. of the present taxpayers pay only 19 per cent. of the' total amount We rece,ive. Forty-six per cent. of the whole of the income tax at present comes from those with an income of £1,501, and over. Honorabl~ members will see that it is from the higher incomes that we get the greater proportion of our tax. With regard to the increased rates of companies, I have particulars showing the rates of the other States. Broadly speaking, I may say that our increased rates will just about bring us into line with those of other States. If the rates proposed in this Bill become law. all companies here will pay Is. in the £1. Ordina.ry companies pay on their profits; life companies on 30 per cent. of life premiums, and 15 per cent. of industrial premiums. No.w, in New South Wales, all companies pay Is. 3d. in the £1 on profits. In South Australia, companies pay '9d. in the £1 up to £800, and Is. lid. over £800. In Queensland they pay Is. on dividends, and 6d. on undistributed profits. British and foreign companies pay Is. in the £1 on all profits. In Tasmania the rate is Is. in the £1 on all income. In Western Australia, companies trading only in that State pay Is. in the £1 on all 'aividends declared, and companies trading in Western Australia and elsewhere, Is. on net local profits. As I
say, if our proposals beco::':!1e law, companies here. will be placed. on the same basis as they are' in the other States. The additional amounts estimated to be received from the increased tax will be, 1915-16, £100,000; 1916-17, £120,000; for 1917-18, £130,000; and for 1918-19, £135,000.
l\h. J\1ENZIEs.-\Vhat iR VOllr reason for going so far into the fut{ue,1
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I think it is the only honorable and straightforward course to pursue, We are borrowing £1,000,000 to make up the deficit, and we must not, like Micawber, make no provision in respect to it. People will want to know what provision the State has made for meeting the bonds when they become due. Honorable members will see. tha't I have estimated that there will be an increase in the amount from this source each financial year. I am assuming, as everyone
'does, that we will have a good season next year and that the position of the people will be better each year. I want to make it clear to honorable members that the figures which I have given are the additio-nal amounts that will be received. The allowance of premiums paid under the Workers' Compensation Act, and the deduction of the Federal land tax paid in 1913, are provisions the fairness of which should commend them to the favour of the House.. I think that both Houses of Parliament are pledged with regard to the Federal land tax. A Bill providing for the refund was put through early this year, but it was somewhat defective in its drafting. \Vith regard to the taxation of incomes from trust estates at the property rate, I may say that has been' the custom from the inception of the Act, hut there was a recent decision by 't-he Privy Council, in the Syme case, which upset that practice. The tax had always been collected in the belief that the interpretation of the Act, under which the property rate was charged, was correct, and was in accordance with the intention of ParHament. Our High Court upheld that view, but the Privy, Council held otherwise. We are, therefore, bringing the law into line wit,h the view' held and acted on for many years. The nonmaintainment of that view would mean a loss of from £25,000 to £35,000 per annum. Those are the principal provisions of the Bill. If there is any in-
Income Tax [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 397
formation which is desired with regard to the rates in the different States, I will be pleased to give it, but I think that I have indicated generally what the scope of the measure is.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-This Dill is a departure in an important feature from Income Tax Bills which have been sub~itted to'. us i? past years. Generally, III conneXlOn wIth the financial proposals, we have considered the income tax and· what we thought it was advisable to raise from it for each particular year. On this occasion, owing to the deficit which is anticipated, the Treasurer has said that he is taking the honorable course of intimating to those from wh(om he desires to borrow money the channel from which he expects the funds for repayment to flow. .J ust now I do net know whether it would be wise, and I do not propose to discuss whether the Treasurer has adopted the best course, except to say that I do Ilot think that if I had had the same opportunity I would have taken the same step. However, on the face of the proposals suhmitted, there seems to he a somewhat s~tisfactory arrangem~nt, as far as meeting the money is concerned in the circumscribed area presented b; this Bill. I am sorry to fay, however, that I think that the Treasurer has been a litt~e too optimistic in his pre>posals. It IS generally expected that this year we will have to go throup"h a stiff period, but it is hoped that we °will have R. better sea~on next year. Indisputably, we are convlUced of the fact that we are going to have a bad time; in fact we are having it. We are fearful that our t~oubl~s will increase:, and that in every dIrectIOn of productIOn the possibilities are that our incomes will not be so great as we would like to see them. I do not think the incomes this year, Or the amounts to be derived in taxation from t~em in the forthcoming financial year, vllll be as great as in the past. The ~reasurer anticipates that in this parhcu~ar bad year we. are going to h.ave an Increase m our mcomes, and consequently an increase from the extra taxation proposed. For next year the Treasurer expects that the taxation derived from incomes :is going to incr€ase by £100,000, and the following year by £12D,000. As far as next year is concerne~, although we hope it will be good, there IS no absolute guarantee. that it will not be as bad as the present. After all,
however, it is, to a certain extent, guess work. No one can make a calculation with. any certa.in~y. Still, from the point of VIew from wIuch I regard it, it seems to me that we cannot expect next year, ~ hen the new rates first come into· operatIon, the same amount of income as this year. 'Ve are gettin,g the revenue in one y~ar on the incomes derived in the preVIOUS year. I am looking forward to there being a decreRse in that direction. Neither in his Budget statement nor in submitting this Bill did the honorable gentleman draw the attention of the House to the possibilities in that direction. All through he has assumed an optimistic attitude. That is not a bar! attitude to assume, but at the same time We should avoid digging our heads into the sand so as not to see things that should be plain to ·all of us. If what I fea,r happens, then the provision that the Treasurer is making to meet the deficit
. of £1,000,000. will be disarranged altogether. I tlunk that. the system under which the income-tax rates come UP for re.view every year .is a good one. By the BIll we are pawnmg our income-tax. revenue for four or five years ahead. It seems. to n;te that ~his is a sugar coating tl~at IS bemg applIed in order that the £1,000,000 deficit will be swallowed. I do not propose to say any more about tha:t. I do not want to 00 pessimistic whIle the Treasurer is optimistic' but looking the matter fairly in the f~ce, i do not see how the honorable gentlema.n's estimate in regard to' income-tax revenue is possible of realiz.ation. It may be that for the next four or five years we will have very good seasons, and there is the very great possibility that our manufac~ tures will increase as the result of a de~ termination to make O'ur own goods in~tead of importing them. That would mcrease our national and private incomes. It appears to me-that the revenue to be derived frO'm this year's income tax is not likely to reach the estimate given by the Treasurer. 1 hope that it will.
. Mr. H. :McKENZIE (Rodney).-There IS one" cll:lJss of people I have always made ~n .appeal f?r-I recognise that this year It 1$ very lIttle use making an appealwho suffer a great injustice under the income tax.. I refer to l11en with smHll salaries and large families. When a man has a smallsafary and a large family, pretty weHevery penny o.f his income is
:J98 Income Tax [ASSEMBLY. ] Btll.
spent in maintaining his family. ill some other countries a deduction of so much per child under fourteen years of age is allowed, and I think the case of men with small incomes and large families should be considered by the Treasurer. Take the case of a man with £300 a year, and five or six children. Probably he is not able to save anything. The chances are that a single man, who receives the same salary, can, if he is a frugal fellow, bank £200. .
Mr. MURRAY.-£200 ~ Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-Prob
ably more. Two such men pay exactly the same income tax. I always feel that that is a very great injustice. I would ask the Treasurer) if we have an afIluent time in the future--I trust ·we shall-to pay attention to this matter.
1\1r. KEAs'l,.-It has been brought up for the past five years.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-If we did not mention it from time to time it, is not likely that anything would be done. It is a matter that should be seriously considered.
Mr. OMAN.-I would just like to say that if the £500 exemption from the extra tax ?ad been applied to give relief to men WIth large families there could have b~en little or no objection to it, but· I am .lust afraid that the tax is not going to give the revenue that the Treasurer anticipates. H.as the honorable gentleman taken into consideration the depleted income of those men who will now have to pay double land tax ~ That will make a big shortage, because it is ~he large taxpayer who has m&de up thl3 ll1come-tax revenue. Owing to the increase in land taxation, the·re will be a great; sh~rtage in income-tax receipts. I would hk,e to be assured that that point has been considered. M~. M. K. McKENZIE ( Upper Goul
b.?l1'1z,).-In regard to the £500 exemptIon from extra taxation, and the proposition put forward by the honorable member for Rodney that a deduction should be allowed for children, I think that ~f a deduct jon were allowed for children the e:x:emption might be reduced very conSIderably, because the deduction for children would provide for the very class of persons whom the high exemption is intended to benefit. I just mention that matter in passing, but I desire more particularly to refer to clause 8. By the administration of the State Commissioner
of Taxes persons paying Federal land tax were allowed no exemption whatever until there was a law case. A Mr. Moffatt brought an action against the Commissioner, and was successful. The Court decided that a deduction should be allowed on account of the Federal land tax. Then a nu~ber of persons applied to have tha,t deduction extended to them.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-As a result of the verdict 7
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper GouloUl'n).-Yes. Their application was refused by the Commissioner. Some of those who applied were city merchants. Mr. Moffatt earned his income from land by grazing. ~ The Commissioner, I believe, took the view that in the case of city merchants the land was not essential to the business at all. To my mind tha J
was an extraordinary view to takf3. Surely the land on which business nremises stand is essential to the busines<l A man cannot have his business premises in the air. He has to have them on the land, and ·in the city, of course, land is very valuable. Then again, others who made the deduction in preparing thejr income-tax schedule were told that it could not be granted to them because they had not protested against paying on a previous occasion. That, also, was an extraordinary position to take up. That is to say, every man should be a lawyer, and know that if he does not protest he cannot expect any refund from the Commissjoner unless he goes to law t;o obtain it.
Mr. SNowBALL.-That is a well recognised principle.
Mr. 1\1. K. McKENZIE (Uppe1' Goulburn).-It may be a well recognised principle among lawyers. The honorable member's interjection proves what I say. People who own land are not all lawyers.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-Do you mean to sal that all lawyers own land 1
Mr. M. K. l\1cKENZIE (Uppe1' Goulb'l.tTn).-A lot of them do. I do not think the Government should permit any advantage to be taken of a technicality of that kind. If it is fair for the tax t.o be refunded in the case of those who had sufficient legal knowledge to enable them to protest, surely it is just that it should be refunded to those who did not protest, because they had not such legal knowledge ~ A deputation waited on Mr. Watt, the late Treasurer, in respect to this matter, and he was yery sympatl1etic.
Tncome Tax [21 DECEMBER, 1914.] Bill. 399
I think he had the matter inquired into, and found that the loss in revenue would be about £15,000. Since then the Government, through the Commissioner, have refunded most of this money. It is said that about two-thirds of it has been refunded for the years 1911, 1912, and 191.3, leaving one-third for each of those years that has not yet been refunded. That would be about £10,000. It might be more on account of the Commissioner refusing to refund the money in cases where no protest was made, but I do not think he has any right to refuse to prty in those eases.
Mr. MENZIES.-It is a mere technicality.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper GoulImrn).-Yes. It is taking advantage of a technicality in order to exact this amount of money from persons who were ignorant of the law, and did not protect themselves. There is another point in connexion with the matter of somewhat greater importance. I refer to the case of persons in the Old Country who aTe income-tax payers here--who have lent money here, and so forth. In those cases the refund has not been made. This is creating a very unfavorable· impression in the Old Country, and it is not desirable that our Government should have the name of treating investors from the Old Country unfairly. These things amount to a numbe'!' of pin-pricks that are doing a great deal of harm to our State, and I think that under the circumstances the Government would do well to act in an absolutely jU!t a.nd fair manner. For the amount of money involved, it is certainly not worth while jeopardizing the honour and good name of the Sta.te. I trust that the Treasurer will look into the matter and see if he cannot meet the views I have expressed. I hof5e I shall not have to move an amendment, but if necessary I shall do so.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and committed. Clauses 1 to 5 were agreed to. Clause 6-(Exemption from income tax
of premiums under Workers' Compensation Act).
M.r. l\1ENZIES.-I was just thinking that it was about time that the deductions permissible were reviewed. I think the deduction for householders is lOs.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The Com, missioner is allowing 12s. 6d.
The clause was agreed to, as was also clause 7. •
Clause 8-(Power to deduct or refund income tax paid in respect of Commonwealth land tax for 1913).
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier).-I wish to say that the matter referred to by the honorable member for Upper Goulburn was not brought under my notice until 2 o'clock to-day. I told those who made representations to me that I could not undertake to accept any amendment, but I promised to look into the matter, because I am not familiar with the years 1911 and 1912. The promise made was in regard to the year 1.91.3, and I was honouring that promise. I will go into the matter carefully with the officers.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Uppe'l' GoulbUl'n).-The very fact t1~at the cO·l1ce.s~ion was made for 1913 shows that it was just on the face of it. If it is not, why should it be made 1 If just, it should be conceded for the years 1911 and 1912. I shall leave it to the sense of justice of the Premier. If he finds the statements I have made are just, I hope he will deal fairly with the matter.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) .-1 shall go into the matter with the Commissioner of Taxes and the officers, and I shall bring it before the Cabinet. Later on I shall announce th9 result to the House. \Vith regard to the matter mentioned by the honorable member for Rodney concerning a remission to the man with a large family, I may say that I am very much in sympathy with that idea, and I should like to have been able to deal with it. When times get good again I shall give the matter most sympathetic consideration. I am a married man, but I have no family. Still I can quite understand from the experience of my friends who have families that this is a grievance with them. The leader of the Opposi tiOll has been very fair in his criticism, and he wound up by saying that he hoped my optimistic views would be realized. I was' most particular in asking the Under-Treasurer, who is one of our most capable officers, to make sure to give the minimum. These figures he and the officers informed me are for a bad year, and they have no fear but that they will be realized.
400 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Department of Agriculture.
Mr. OMAN.-There is 9d. in the £1 land tax on large estates.
Sir ALEXANDER J?EACOC1{.-It does not touch me, I am sorry to say. We must see how the Fede-ral and State taxes operate, and I think tlie Federal 'fteasurer will be ready to do the right thing. ' Whilst there is a great deal of criticism, I think it is marvellous how the people are recognising their responsibilities-. We know what heavy taxation is "being imposed in the Old Country on all cl-asses. Mr. Lloyd George said the nation was at war, and he felt justified in: raising the tax on tea although, as he said, he was a teetotaller. They have raised the tax to 8d. a lb. The people in the Old Country are bearing it because they realize the seriousness of the situatiOll. We tobacco smokers have to bear a great deal of taxation. In all human probability in a few months' time with good' seasons we shall be able to review the position. In the Old Country they are having a tremendous struggle financially and otherwise. It is absolutely essential that' everyone should take his full share of responsibility. Altl~ough there may be a little trouble here and there to individuals, we will come but all right. , The clause was agreed to, as was also
clause 9. . The Bill was reported to the House
vvithout amendment, and the report was adopted.
Ou the motion of Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier), the Bill was read a third time.
SUPPLY. the House went into Committee for
the further consideration of the Estimates of Expenditure for the year 1914-1915.
DEPARTMENT' OF AGRICULTURE.
Minister of Agriculture, £166,454. Mr. ELl\fSLIE.-I do not see the hon
otable member for Warrenheip in the chamber,. but I know he has something to say on the very important matter of the inspection of potatoes exported from Victoria. The ma,tter I desire to obtain some information upon is the Maffra Beet Sugar Factory. The estimate of expenditure for the current year in connexion with that factory is £3~,302. According to the Auditor-General's report, there has been a loss in connexion with thi~ experi-
mont at Maffra during the past year of £10,304 15s. 1d. .As far as my memory sel'ves me, since the inception of this experiment, away back. in the, years that are gone---it was closed for a time, and afterwards opened again~we have always been faced with a loss, so far as the pl'oduction of beet sugar is concerned. N ow, under ordinary circumstances one would have thought that an experiment after it extended over anum ber of years would have afforded us sufficient data to enable us to arrive' at one of two conclusions regarding it. One conclusion would be that the management of the whole establishment must have been very bad, and it was for that l'eason the experiment has not boen a success, while the alternative conclusion that is forced upon us -and I think this is the right conclu~ion-is that, so far as the production of beet sugar in that district is concerned, we are endeavouring to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. We have had a trial of this experiment year after year, and still the thing goes on. So far as the industl'Y of manufacturing beet sugar in Victoria is concerned, it has made no appreciable advance. The Minister himself, upon his taking office, must have been struck: with the difficulties surrounding the matter, because he announced publicly that he .was going to shut up the factory-that the State could not stand the expense. Pressure, however, was brought to beap, and he then stated he was not going to shut it up. A little later on he said he would close up the factory, nnd so there have been four or :fiV'e different announcements, one after the other, on the subject, and we still have the thing going on, and showing for the last year a ross of £10,3{)4. Now, it is easy '~o criticise, but what we desire, I al}t. sure, is not to take exception to any undertaking of this kind merely on the ground that it has not been a financial success so long as there is a prospect of its assisting in the production of wealth-in affording greater opportunities for the development of the country in agriculture and other directions. We may be told now that, nnder irrigation or through some new discovery of water, there is a possibility next year or the following years that this entetprise will answer all the fond anticipations of those who started and supported it, and of all the well-wishers who
DepaJrtmen't'6/ [21 DECEMBER, 11)14.] Agt.wulture. 401
'Want to see it go ahead. I think, therefore, it is due to the Committee for the Minister of Agricultul'e to take us fully into his confidence and to state in no uncertain manner what he considers to be his justification for submitting to the Committee and asking us to pass such n very large Sum -of money as £32,000 for this enterprise, when we are likely, judging from the past year's operations, to lose one-third of that amount, or about £10,000. The Minister should explain whether any fresh circumstances have arisen that are likely to be, of a petmanent character, and, if so, what they are, w hic11 justify the lVlinister in asking us to continue this expenditure for so muny yeal's on a non-profitable concern. When I say non-profitable I mean nonpaying. I am sure we are not anxious to make a profit out of an enterprise of this kind so much as we are concerned in being certain that the industry is one which is likely to be of permanent service to the State. This is a matter in con .. nexion with which the Committee certainly wants to know a great deal more before it should be asked to vote .a sum of £32,000 to be expended in the further continuance of this MaHI'a beet Sligar factory. If the Minister can supply us with facts that will afford a justificatioh for this pl'oposal, I am sure that no one will be more pleased than my~elf, if any Mf3utance can be given that this factory is likely to be a SUccess. I shall certainly listen to the l\Enister's remarks with considerable ihterest.
Mr. MctACHLAN.-With regard to the item to which the leader of the Opposition has taken exception, I may say that I think there was evel'y justification for the Government taking the steps they did in connexion with the Maffra beet sugar factory. Some honorable members will remember the Government determined to close down that establishment. N ow, in my opinion they had no legitimate reason for taking that step. They had every justification for reducing the area which the beet-growers had been clamouring II bout on the Boisdale estate, and also at Kilmany, because the impost was altogether too heavy. As far as Kilmany is concerned, that estate has not been proved to be a suitable spot for th~ cultivation of beet; and the growers "lI11a'de :1 loss on the industry there.
In Boisclale the case was somewhat different. The Boisdale land was purchased for the purposes of growing beet. It was e:xpensive lal1d, costing the Government from £25 to £30 an. acre, and of course when the Government purchases land ')f t?at quality it wants it for some ,purpose other than cereal growing; it is too expensive for ordinary cultivation. The growers at Boisdale were limited in the area they had to something like 40 acres, and their contract with the GovernmeIit was that they were to cultivate onefourth of that area in beet. That was more than these men could do with profit, especially without irrigation, the absehce of which was a further drawback to 'them. Theil there were two or three 'dry seaSOhS, which was an additional drawback, so that beet-grow. ing 'at Boisdale was a comparative failure. . In places where those who cultivated beets Were able to irrigate privately, beet-growing was not a failure, and I, am sure that the Minister, when he replies, will be able to supply several cases where growers, not on the Boisdale estate but in the Maffra district, did grow beet at a profit. In fact, there is no cultivation that pays the worker better. than successful beet-growing, and there is none that will return to the grower so much profit in favorable seasons. Before this enterprise was entered upon, every care and consideration were given to the
. proposal. The late 1\1:1'. Allan McLean was the promoter of the industry, and there was the advantage of the experience of America, where beet-growing for many yeats had hot been a success, but in which it had subsequently become a success. No doubt the enterprise was entered UpOll here with a great deal of ignorance, so far as beet-growing was concerned. Naturally, in coilllexion with a new industry, it could not he expected that local people should have the requisite knowledge. I believe a person was imported to impart knowledge to the gl·owers, but still there was a good deal of ignorance in connexion with the growing of beets, and also in connexiotl with the. erection of the machinery that was reqUIred for the factory. The State, of. Course, had to pay for that kind of thmg at the outset, but knowledge was gained from the experience. The factorv at Maftta was closed hp r6r & nttm:be~
402 Department of [ASSEMBLY. ] Agriculture.
of years, but through the instrumentality of the late Premier, Mr. Watt, it was determined to re-open it. Unfortunately, on its l'o-opening the district again suffered from drought, and it is well known that during the months of December, January, and February, if there is a drought, the beet suffers to a considerable extent in the absence of irrigation.
Mr. HANNAH.-Thel'e has been a loss every year.
Mr. McLAOHLAN.-N ot every year. Mr. CHATHAM.-The estimate last year
was £47,000, and the actual receipts were £16,000.
Mr. J\lIcLACHLAN .-The Minister himself has the figures. The beet ind ustry can be made a success if the Govern ment have the courage to stick to if, and that means that you will have to supply the peo.ple of that district with irrigation. Irrigation, it appears, has been an expensive undertaking elsewhere. It is something which requires a good deal of knowledge, and beet-growing al~o requires knowledge. But sugar we must have. vVe are sending £1,000,000 a year out of the country fo.r sugar, and yet we can grow sugar in this country. It may be costly at the outset, but we can get over the difficulties. If we were to cease our operations in co.nnexion with an industry because it does not pay, then good-bye, to everything. There is no industry that can be successful without enco.uragement at the beginning. For neaQY 200 years America struggled to make the tobacco industry a success. Supposing it had given up that industry when it was not successful at first ~ The same difficulties that were overcome in other co.untries are associated with our industries here, and we must endeavo.ur to overcome them by kno.wledge and more up-to-date methods. It has been proved beyond all doubt that in Gippsland, comparatively wet as it is, water is required, at any rate, for beetgrowing purposes during the dry months of December, January, and February. We usually get our winter rains in Gippsland, but we did no.t this year. although we had fair crops. Gippsland is quite a paradise co.mpared with other parts of the State. If any part of the State is worth spending money upon, certainly this part has a goo.d claim. The people have spent a lot of money. They have had faith in heetgrowing. The Government, also, have
rightly spent a good deal of money in that.
An HONORABLE MEMDER.-The industry has bled the country.
Mr. lVlcLACHLAN.-It has not been bled by the Maffra beet sugar industry. \Ve have spent money in the north for irrigation, and we had to write off some of that money; but we did not stop irrigation on that account, and is the attempt to establish this business on a successful basis to be abandoned because it has not been a success in a year or two. ~
Mr. CHATHAM.-It has gone on for twenty-five years.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-There was a cessation in beet-growing for a time. I have heard the honorable member for Grenville say that railways ought not to be gone on with, or that we were building railways too fast in the country. I do not think so. I do not think we are building them fast enough. The three months of December, January, and February are the m.onths when we require water for our beet. In order to get that water, we require irrigation. If you determine to close the factory, the people in the district will put in beet themselves. The conditions as to beet-growing in regard to. Boisdale were cut .cut, and yet some of
. the settlers there are growing beet. The bulk of that beet, from what I can learn, is looking well, and the major portion of it is being grown under private irrigation. I should like to see many thousands of pounds put down in the Estimates for the purpose of giving us an irrigation scheme, no.t alone for beet-growing, but for all purposes of agriculture in that district. The lands lying about the Avo.n and the Macalister are well wo.rth irrigation. We do not expect to get irrigation as cheaply as in the north j but if the north is worth irrigation, with its cheaper land, it is certainly worth while irrigating land in Gippsland.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I believe it would pay better to irrigate lucerne than beet.
lVIr. McLACHLAN.-That may be; but I hope the country is not going to give up the idea of establishing the beet industry. We can only learn by experience. I know, so far a·s this season is concerned, it is not !!oing to cost the Government a great deal of money. I hope that at the termination of this seaso.n, when the beets are delivered at the factory_and changed into sugar, the Government will give g~eater encouragement to
Department 0/ [21 DBctMEER, 1914.J Agriculture. 4:03
growers, and take steps to supply people in that district with irrigation.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Pitzroy).-The question of the beet sugar factory is a very int.eresting one. The honorable member for Gippsland North is very anxious that the factory shall be given a fair trial, and that the Government will not be mean in their contributions towards the success of this factory. I think we can all join ~ith him; but from time to time we have been promised that this factory was going to do better next year. Honorable m~mbers do not appear to be seised with the fact that, although this is a good thing, we may possibly pay too much for it. I do not know what is too much, but I would draw attention to what we are paying. Last yea,r we made a loss on that factory of £10,304. The whole of the beet treated at that factory was 7,431 tons. In other words, on every ton of beet we treated at the factory we lost 30s. r think the factory paid from 17s. 6d. to £1 for beet.
Mr. Hu'rcHINsoN .-1 forget the price. I think it was a little less than 17s. 6d. I will get the figures.
Mr. J. W. BILLeON (Fitzroy).-The fa.rmer gets 17s. 6d., and it costs, say, 308. for every ton we treated. Is this to go on for ever 1 The factory has been established for about twenty years. It was closed for some time, and then we determined to re-open it, and insure a supply of beet. The Government bought land, and made a condition that a given a.rea. should be cultivated each year in beet, and that the beet should be sent to the factory. No sooner were these conditions in operation than the honorable member for Gippsland North, and several others-I do not say they did so wrongly -urged the Government to release the eettlers from the obligations they had entered into in connexion with beet-growing. In relieving them, we starved the factory.
Mr. McLAcHLAN.-I urged a reduction from 10 acres to 5 acres 'from the outset, because I considered that the men were asked to cultivate too much of the land .hey held.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-That was reducing the amount by 50 per cent., and starving the factory to that extent. I was in hopes that when the factory reopened, with the experts we had and the knowledge we had been able to obtain, it would be a .paying concern. N one of us
is a:nxious that it should be a.bsolutely paylllg providing we think it is doing good work. But is it good work when we pay the farmers 15s. or 17s. per ton for beet and are losing in its treatment 1
Mr. H. l\icKENZIE (Rodney).-They manufactured a splendid article.
Mr. J. \V. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-But lost 303. a ton on every tOll of beet they treated. Are we business people, or what is the idea of continuing this 1 I expected the :Minister would have told us that the!e was a prospect of an improvemen,t thIS season, but he says nothing.
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-You will not give me the chance.
Mr. J. \V. BILLS ON (Fit":7·oy).-Thehonorable gentleman had plenty of chance after the leader of the Opposition sat do~n. Each year we are losing hea viI y, and there appears to be no end to it, and if any improvements are made we know nothing about them. All the improvements up to date have been failures. Are the prospects next season better or worse ~ Are we likely to wipe off the deficiencies we have made, or shall we continue losing £10,000 at the factory ~ It is said that drought conditions prevail, and that the crop is lighter than was hoped for. The question that occurs to me is that, if beet-growing is a profitable investment, why do not the farmers grow bect 1 If it is not a profitable investment why should we force them to grow beet and continue this factory at a loss of £10,000 a year 1 It is very apparent to me 'that the settlers have sense enough to .know that they are doing something w hlCh pays better, but we have not sense enough to recognise that fact and close the factory up. We do not want to CCll
tinue the factory as a philanthropic institution in that particular district. What good is it if the people do not want it ~ They can get sugar better and cheaper.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-It turned out sugar at £15 a ton, and now £23 is paid, and probably the price will increase.
Mr. J. "V. BILLSON (Fitzroy).That will not prove a profit when you have the balance-sheet before you. Each month we are running this factory at a tremendous loss to the State.
Mr. HOGAN.-How long has it been re-opened ~
Mr. MoLACHLAN.-It was closed about twelve years.
Mr. KEAsT.-It has been, open about six years.
404 De:f,artrnent 0/ [ASSEMBLY.] Agriculture.
Mr. J. W. :aILLSON (Ji'itzroy).--We have been making a tremendous loss each year, and although we have had men who profess to be business men at the head of the Department, they have never come down with a business proposition, but are always hoping to overcome the difficulties and the tremendous loss to the State, as if it were an experiment. It is not an experiment, but a realized fact, a gigantic failure.
JVIr. l\
Department 0/ [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agriculture. 405
anxious to make a. start, made a big demonstration, and they approached the Government with a definite proposition. The Government said, "If you can guarantee 1,000 acres, of which at least 750 can be irrigated, then we are prepared to run the factory for the current year." They set to work; and they speedily gave us written guarantees that at least 1 ,000 should be cultivated, and that three-fourths of that should be irrigated.
Mr. J. \V. BILLSON (FitZT()y) .-Did each give a guaranwe ~
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes and then the, syndicate that p'athered 'up all the names also gave a guarantee. The result of people being left to their own initiative means that' this year for the first time the beet cultivation seen;s to be on ~ sound footing. The cultivators have been put on their mettle, and I am bound to say that they have responded verv well. They have made, generally speaking. their a.rran$ements for irrigation, pending the a~optlOn of a general scherne of irrigatIon. In the last Estimates we set aside £5,000 to thoroughly explore that district in connexion with the irrigation proposal. Mr. Checchi, one of the most expert engineers of the Water Supply Department, was set apart for that work, and before this beet season ends we shall he able to submit to the beet cultivators of that district a scheme of irrigation for their approval. Under this voluntary cultivation we find -the Director has been down there-that generally speaking, the whole of the cuI: tivated beet is shaping very well. T would repeat that, because we have this year a larger number of voluntary growers, and because they feel that the fate of the industry is in their hands, and that unless they make a good show it is likely that the industry will not be continued, the growers themselves are making a very special effort. The area has been extended, and the prospects are better than they have been in the past.
Mr. ,VARDE.-Do you expect a profi.t~ Mr. HUTCHINSON.--:No, I would say
that the estimated receipts would show a loss of £5,000.
Mr. WARDE.-The loss of the factory must be between £90,000 and £100,000 since it started.
Mr. HUTCHINSON .-1 would not venture to say from memory, but the loss has been considerable. If honorable members will look at the Estirna tes of this year and last year,
they will find that the amount set down f?r last year was £46,000; this year the estImate is cut down to £32,000. Honorable members will see that the expenditure of the factory was £27,000 last ye~r, and on cultivation about £5,400. ThIS year we are saving this item as we a.re doing. no cultivating. The wh~le outSIde cost IS borne by the ·cultivators themselves, and, generally speaking, the cost to the Government is in the factory itself.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-Do you include in that the cost of that stud farm ~
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-No, there are no (l~tside farming or cultivation charges now III connexioll with the factory.
Mr. HANNAH.-What about the stud farm ~
Mr. HUTCHINSON .-1 have no knowledge of the existence of any stud farm about Maffra. Take last year's item of actual expenditure of £27,000. It will be seen that we estimate an extra expendi~ure o~ £5,000. That extra expenditure lS proVlded for in accordance with the faotory manager's estimate to meet the increased ~llpply of beet available by rea.son of the lllcreased cultivation. I think, generally, that is· the position. I have quoted the estimates this year with reserve, because honorable members will understand that, whilst the bulk of the beet is being cultivated under irrigation conditions, there are from 250 to 300 acres. bein~ cultivated without irrigation, an~ III thIS exceptionally dry season the estImate there cannot be realized. ~r. l\1:cLAcHLAN-:'-The growers sink
theIr own money. Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes. Honor-
able members can rest satisfied that the Maffra bee~ indu~try, generally, is on a better footIng thIS year than it has ever been before, and that it will come nearer paying expenses, but I am bound, in frankness. to the Committee, to say that I am satIsfied that there will be a loss though that loss will be reduced thi~ year.
Mr. HOGAN.-What is the increased area 7
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-I think last year there were about 700 acres, but a very small proportion of that was under irrigation. This year 750 acres are under irrigation conditions.
l\Ir. J. W. BILLSON (Pitzroy).-Can the honorable gentleman get the figures as to the loss on the factory since it wa~ re-opened ~
4:06 Department 0/ [AeSEMBLY.] Agriculture.
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes. Mr. H.ANN.AH.-I am glad there is a
discussion on this item. If there is a question that ought to be tackled in earnest by the representatives of the people at such a time it is the question now under consideration. Honorable members Juwe from year to year heard on the Estimates repeatedly the s~me old tale of a difference ill the coming year. \Ve hear the same old tale as to the splendid possibilities for the future. Years ago I had great faith in the prospects of establishing beet growing on something like a practical basis, so that men possessing little capital might be able to earn a decent livelihood. We were repeatedly told that with the assistance of experts and up-to-date machinery, such as they have in America, there was no dOll bt that beet growing could be made a grent industry. We believed the fairy tales which have been told us by Ministers at the table. If honorable members are going to allow the present drift to go on in connexion with the Department of Agriculture it seems to me they_ are not doing their duty.
Mr. McLAcHLAN.-The beet is in an improved condition.
Mr. HANNAH.-We should have an earnest discussion which will either end or mend-I hope mend-the industry. The way in which the affair has been managed during the last few years is positively a disgrace to the responsible Department. Many honorable members will remember that four years ago the then Minister of Agriculture offered to stake his political existence on this and other ventures in connexion with the Department. The present Minister has been in office for just about twelve months, and I want to know if he has faith in this undertaking. Cannot he supply statistics to show that men can be profitably engaged in the growth of beet and the manufacture of sugar from it 1 If not, we should face the position at once.
Mr. ],
Depa'rtment 0/ r21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agriculture. 40
Mr. Watt went on to give figures which show that there has been an increasing loss. If there is a possible chance of the ind ustry being made a success we shoulsi know exactly where the Government are on the matter. We should be told what hope there is of putting it on a profitable basis. I am not. one of those who grudge the expenditure of a reasonable amount of money in rendering assistance to rural industries. In connexion with this industry the question is whether we will have to pay too great a price.
Mr. McLAcHLAN.-What ar,e you taking exception to this year ~
Mr. HANNAH.-The balance-sheet for last year shows a loss of over £10,000. Since the beet industry was resuscitated it has been shown that there has been a loss of just upon £100,000. Can we go on from year to year in this way ~ The industry does not seem to be in a better position than it was four or five years ago.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-Men unsolicited are growing beet for the factory this year.
Mr. HANNAH.-Then, good luck to them.
Mr. McLAcHLAN.-Don't you think they should get some encouragement ~
Mr. ELMSLIE.-It would be better to give them the money.
Mr. HANNAH.-Yes, f~r better than that they should be allowed to come to failure following the advice of experts.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-£60,000 was lost before the factory was re-opened.
Mr. HANNAH.-A considerable amount was lost after that. Altogether, I suppose that the venture will run into a 10sSl; of nearly £200,000.
Mr. McLACHLAN .-Do you believe in high salaries ~
Mr. HANNAH.-What has that to do with it 1 .
Mr. McLAcHLAN.-You cannot expect to get a manager of a factory like that for nothing.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-He is paid pretty well, and a pretty hash he has made of it.
Mr. HANNAH.-We have imported men at a high salary.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-The question of earni~g capacity goes with that of high salary.
Mr. HANNAH.-With regard to this industry I was not sure whether the Minister said that we would be in a better position next year tha.n this year, but for
the last five years that has been the tale we have been told. It seems to me that if the present administration ar,e incapable of grappling with the difficulties which we are uE. against, then the assistance of some of the experts in this House should be availed of. There are men here who are'capable of giving advice on such a matter. Even when it is given from honorable members on the Ministerial side of the House no notice seems to be taken of it. We ought to have a more definito statement from the Minister as to the Government attitude with regard to the successful manipulation of the beet sugar industry in the State. Is it to be passed out owing to incapacity to grapple with it, although it is an industry which has been made a success in other parts of the world. I do not think the honorable member for Gippsland North has done himself justice. The honorable member referred to the results of beet-growing in other parts of the world.
Mr. DOWNWARD.-In some places the wage for an adult is lOs. a week.
Mr. HANNAH.-It is nothing of the sort in America, where they have the advantage of highly scientific machinery. The agricultural labourer there is paid a. good wage.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-In America they can produce 25 per cent. of sugar 'from the beet instead of 10 per cent., which is obtained here.
Mr. HANNAH.-I want to ask the Minister whether, in connexion with this industry, we are to have a repetit.ion of the failure which we know has attended the enterprises of this Department particularly, in other directions. With the de· cline of gold mining, we look to the agri. cultural and other ind ustrie.9 connected with the land to promote the prosperity of this State. In connexion with the beet-sugar industry we should put the matter on a proper basis, if we are goi ng to be' honest, inst.ead of allowing it to drift.
lVIr. DOWNWARD.-We are waiting to hear a suggestion from you.
Mr. HANNAH.-In the intercsts of· economy, as well as of the industry itself, I think the matter should he relegated to a Committee outside the Departmcnt of Agriculture. That Committee should consist of some practical men, who should go into the whole matter, and report to the Government as to whether the indus· try can he put on a proper ba.sis. A large
408 Department 0/ [ASSEMBLY. ] Agriculture.
amount of money has been spent on water eonse,rvation and irrigation in different parts of Victoria, and we were told that at \Verribee and other places the beetsugar industry could be established, and that we would be able to supply a great portion of the sugar required in Australia.. If we cannot get more' satisfactory st.atements from the Go,vernment with regard to this matter, it will be necessary to move an amendment in order to show our opinion with regard to it, in the hope that some finality may be reached in the direction of putting the industry on a profitable basiB. As a matter of fact~ I am really helping the honorable member for Gippsland North in trying to rescue the industry. First of all the Minister said that the Government were going to close the Maffra factory, then he said they would not~ and once more he said they would,. arid again he said they would not. In the. circumstances, I think we should have a Committee appointed in this House in order to bring practical knowledge to bear on the matter. I would like to see not merely a handful of people, but large number.s, growing beet, if they can be profitably employed.
Mr. McLACHLAN .-1 am told that they can be profitably employed if they have assistance given them. What is the Department of Agriculture for 1
Mr. HANNAH.-That is what I want to know. I have been trying to ascertain it for a long time. I do not wish to occupy the time of the House by dealing with the failures of the Department during the last two years. I would ask honorable members, and particularly some of the new members of this House, if they think that it is a wise and right thing to allow a Department to drift in this way. If we cannot get anything more definite from the Minister with regard to the possibility of success attending the bee,t sugar industry, it is better that we should have the matter brought to a he,ad at once. If it cannot he made successful the money should be spent in a more legitimate and business-like way in connexion with some other industries which can be established with success. However,. I have faith in the industry if it is placed on a proper basi~, and assisted by practical experts. I do not intend to let this vote go t,hrough unless the Government give a definite undertaking that there will be a thorough inquiry into the matt.er with the object
?f placing the indust,ry on a proper footmg, so as to prevent the presentation of anot~er balance-sheet signed by the AudItor-General admitting the inca.pacity of those responsible for the administration in connexion with it.
~r. J. W. BILLSON (Pitzroy).\VIllle the honorable member for Collingwood was speaking, he was asked from the Ministerial side of the House, t t What do you suggest 1'~ That is a very pertinent suggestion. I am anxious, and I believe the honorable ll1e!Ilber for QQlling wood is anxious, tInt this industry should be a success. I do not want it to be closed as the gigantic failure which I ~now. it to be if there is a possibility of It belllg converted into a success. In ~ome par~ of the world the beet sugar llldustry IS now a success, where once it was a failure. The honorable member for . Gippsh~rl North is particularly anXIOUS that It should be continued here. If it is. to, be continued, it should be, continued on a sound scientific and commercial basis. It should not be continued as s?mething that will need feeding for all tune. I can understand, and realize, and appreciate the Government supporting an industry for the time being, and feeding it from the public funds, but I cannot understand that sort of thing being continued for twenty years, by which time the industry should be selIsu pporting . We have the same problem as has been overcome, in other parts of the world, and I feel sure that from th.ose places suggestions could be obtamed that would possibly convert this failure into a success. It is no use closing our eyes to the experiments which are being conducted there. The Country Gentle'man, the oldest agricultural journal in the world, which is published by the Curtis Publishing Company, in Philadelphia, had an interesting article with regard to the question which we are now discussing. I cannot read the whole of it, but I would like honorable members to listen to some po'rtions of it. It is stated with regard to the investigations of Professor Shepard, of the South Dakota Agricultural College· and Experimental Stat,ion, who .chose sugar beet culture as his pet hobby-
He was unable to secure genuine seed before 1891. The crop of that year produced 8 tons of beet an acre, with a sugar content ranging f'rom 13 to 17 per cent. The average content of German beet crops was at tba; time re--
Department 0/ [21 DECEMBER, 1914.J Agriculture. 409
ported to be 14 per cent. Beets must uni· fOl·m.1y a.verage 12 per cent. sugar to be a pro· fitable commercial crop.
For several years the entire State of. Sou~h Dakoh was tested in sugar-beet growmg-m 1897 seed being sent to 954 farmers in fiftyuine counties. This particular experiment demonstrated that Shepard's imp..J.:oved beets would yield heavily over the entire State, and with a. uniformly high suga.r percentage. The t1.verage ~ugar content had by this time been increased to 15 per cent., with a. yield of over 20 tons to the acre. Many selected heets tested It sugar content of more than 20 per cent. These were preserved as " mothers" for growing seed another season.
In 1897, 1898, and 1907 to 1911 inclcsive the United States DeparLment of Agriculture cooperated with the South Dakota Experiment kitation, and at different times Dr. C. O. Townsend and Professor F. A. Pritchard were det~Liled to work with Professor Shepard in luaki ng some P,lJecial experiments. The suggestions received from these experts of the Department encourttge~Frofessor Shepard in further efforts.
In 1912 the work wa.s again continued inde lleudently of Federal co-operation. Tests were now undertaken to produce sugar-beet seed on to commercial hasis-for wh!tt good was a high per cent. beet if it remained merely a labora.· tory product? It must be commercialized, and given to the people. The beets of the 1912 season yielded as high as 24 tons to the acre, with I:l f;t1gar c, mtent of 25.4 per cent. They grew ulluuFlnly and true to type, and good for all average of 20 per cent. sugar. P{ofessor Shep:trd believes that he has now grown enough .. mother" beets to put the sugar-beet business on a safe commercial basis in South Dakota ill two years.
Sl;mma'rized bri~fiy, ·the ~ork' of the South J)akota Experiment Station has developed a hugar beet yielding from one-fifth to one-fourth its weight in sugar, and more than 20 tons t.o the acre-without irrigation and without arti tidal fertilization. In order to produce an eqUAl value of wheat the D~ota. far~er w~uld have to coax his land to YIeld the ImpOSSIble Ol·Op of 140 bushels to the acre.
The 1912 beet crop of South Dakota State CDUege Experiment Station ran so uniformly :cmd true to type that the rejected beet aver~lged B higher analysis of sugar than that reo ported for the regular commercial beet cr~p .e)f the United States. The average tonnage m the United States, in a recent report, was les8 than 11 tons an acre, with fl. sugar content under 16 per cent. Furthermore, no Dakota experimental beet crop bus ever failed.
There is a suggestion for the Minister, if he wants one. It is no use the Government continuing on the old lines. The Maffra factory is entailing a loss of £10,000 per annum of public money. The Minister is breaking the hearts of the growers. The growers said, and the Minister reported it to the House, that they lost money on the crops that they grew, and asked that the 10 acres of beei they had contracted to grow should
be reduced to 5 acres. Hel said that the Government did that. Each year we are getting further into the mire. \Ve are working on the ola lines, with the old political ideas. Things are getting worse and worse -each year. There is, apparently, no initiative on the part of the Government, and we are asked to vote public money for this factory. I, for one, am not prepared to do it without a protest. I say that if the Gov-erllment have no better business capacity than they have displayed up to date in regard to this matter, it would be better to close the factory down and distribute the £10,000 they are losing as a bonus to the people in the district, so that they shall not feel the loss. Let the Goverument give the farmers a present of £10,000 out of the public purse in order to keep sweet with them. That would be doing something which might not be justifiable, but it would cost less than what the Government are doing now, because, at the present time, they are insisting on the growing of something that is not paying. I have read a report" showing what has been done in South Dakota. The Government have taken no notice of that example, or, at any rate, they have taken no means to improve the crop of the beet growers, so far as the volume of the crop and the percentage of sugar are ..concerned. If that was done, probably it would help to make the factory a success. In the absence of any initiative, or any method, other than that pursued by the Government for years past, I feel that honorable members are justified in protesting against continuing to feed this white elephant.
Mr. McLACHLAN .-Are you aware that compulsory beet-growing does not obtain ~
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-I understood the Government had agreed to allow the settlers at Boisdale to reduce the area on which beet should be grown from 10 acres to 5 acres.
Mr. HUTCHINsoN.-We wiped the comPUlS01'y provision out altogether.
Mr. J. \V. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-I did not know that. It is safe tol say thatj the farmers know their business. They know what pays them best. The 1Jovernment insisted on them growing 10 acres of beet. The honorable member for Gippsland North very rightly asked that the settlers should be released from that
410 [ASSEMBLY. ] Agricult'ure.
obligation. I believe that they were willing to grow 5 acres of beet, but the Minister relieved them of that obligation altogether. He made inquiries, and discovered that they were losing money on the 5 acres that they were growing. Having be,en relieved of the obligation to grow 5 acres of beeL, I assume that now they will not do so. If they do not, I should say that next year the factory will lose more money than it did last year. The honorable member for Collingwood read a speech of the late Treasurer, in which it was stated that, in 1912, 180 tons of sugar were made, and that there was a loss of £7,000. Last year 921 tons of sugar were made, and the loss was £10,000. It would appear from that that the more sugar there is made, the greater will be the loss. That must be the case when the factory is on a wrong basis. If the prophecy of the Minister that next year there will be more beet grown, and a greater quantity of sugar produced, is fulfilled, We may anticipate that the loss win be greater.
Mr. HOGAN.-If there is a loss of £1 lOs. per ton, that must necessarily be so.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Pitzroy).Every ton of sugar turned out of the factory last year caused a loss to the State of £1 lOs. I want the Minister to promise to do .som·ething of a radical character. I do not want the factory to be closed up. I do not want the farmers in the district to be injured. I do not want the managers of the factory to have any slight cast upon them. I do not 'Y'ant to hurt anyone, but, at the same tlme, we ought to recognise that there must come a time when the man who is finding the money must close down, just the same as a banker at the back of a man conducting a business would do. The business man might be a good man, but, the banker would not grant him an overdraft when he saw no hope of getting the money back. There must b? a time ,,:hen we will have a commercIal reckonmg. Money cannot be thrown away f?r a~l time without any hope of gettmg It back. The Minister cannot claim that this is developmental work, because the peo'ple whose farms have been developed in the way of growing beet have asked to be relieved of the obligation of growing beet. What do the Government propose to do ~ The Minister made a speech, and we all followed it closely,
because we were anxious to find some disclosure of the policy he intended to pursue in the coming year. There was not a word of that kind. He told us what had taken place in years past. What is the good of that 7 Yesterday is dead; to-day is dying. 'Ve want to know what is going to happen to-morrow. The Government will have to put a policy into operation, and before we vote this money I think we are entitled to know what the policy is.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-Can you suggest what the fault is 7 Is it the soil, or the clima te, or what 1
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-The honorable member asked for a suggestion, and I have given him one.
Mr. HUTCHINSON (Minister of Agriculture).-The honorable member for Fitzr{)y asked what was the price paid at the factory for beet, and I hesitated to answer him from memory. The price paid during the last two seas{)ns has been 22s. per ton. That has been the average for some years, the only difference being that there was some contribution by the Commonwealth Government during the earlier period. During the last two seasons 22s. per ton has been paid.
Mr. ROGERs.-1s not that more thau the actual value 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-That is a higll price. It is recognised that the full price is paid.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-My recollection is that the price used to be £1 per ton at the factory.
Mr. RUTCH1NSON.-I will deal now with the losses. The syndicate that established the factory showed an investment altogether of £125,000. The Government of the day advanced something like £60,000, and they had to foreclose at that amount. The factory was closed down for a period of about twelve years -I am not quite sure about that period -and the cost during the· closure amounted to another £12,000. That was for caretaking and maintenance. When the factory was re-opened in 1911, the cost to the State stood at £72,000. Of course, we had the factory and the land as against that. The last Government found that the factory was a losing concern, and the late Premier and Treasurer, Mr. Watt, with the concurrence of the Cabinet, ordered a very thorough investigation, which was completed early this year. The report of Mr. Pitt, a
Department of [21 DECEMBER, 1914.] Agriculture. 411
very capable Treasury officer, presented at that time to the Government, showed that from the re-opening of the factory in 1911 to January of this year the loss in round figures was £25,000. The Auditor-General's report shows that the loss for 1913-14 was £10,304. A portion of that, of course, would appear in Mr. Pitt's figures-that is the loss up to January of this year. I am not able to say what is the amount of the loss from that time up till the close of the financial year.
Mr. J. \-V. BILLSON (Pitzro;/f).-Did Mr. Pitt consider the question of capital invested and depreciation 1 .
Mr. HUTCHINSON .-1 do not think that interest was included.
Mr. J. \V. BILLSON (Yitzroy).-That has to be added on 1 .
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes, I think that is the position. Contrasting the present year with previous years, the figures show that the area of land previously cultivated in the Maffra district, and contributing to the factory, never reached 800 acres. In this year the Government exacted from the growers a gU!Lrantee that they would cultivate 1 ,000 acres of beet, but actually 1,150 acres have been cultivated. A considerably incre,ased acreage is shown, and the men who were forced to grow beet, and who were not growing it successfullywho were growing it at a loss-were relieved of their obligations. The men who are growing beet are the men who say that they can grow beet well and profitably. They are growers such as the honorable member for Gippsland North mentioned-Caffrey, Linden, and Noble -who have made a success of beet growing in the past. They have actually extended their beet areas.
Mr. HOGAN.-There is an increase of 350 acres 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON.--"-Yes. This year 1,150 acres a.re being cultivated. The increased acreage, and the fact that beet is being grown by men who desire to grow it, and say that they can grow it profitably, give the Government a hope amounting to a certainty that the yield will be a considerably increased one. Then, as I indicated before, we have cut off the cost of cultivation on the part of the Government. We have cut off some losses the Government had to incur in helping the weaker growers who made a
failure of their cultivation. The Government are saved that expenditure, and therefore we have a reasonable hope of carrying the operations of the factory through at. a considerable reduction upon the loss in any previous year.
IvIr. CHATHAM.-I think at the present time, ""hen we are attempting t.o raioo money by additional taxation, it is the duty of the Government to find out where some of the leakages are through which money is lost. There is apparently a very big leakage in connexion wit.h the Maffra beet sugar factory. My attention was first drawn t,o the working of this factory when the Attorney-General, at the Au.st.ralian Natives' Association Conference, at Wangaratta, some time ago, sa.id that the loss sustained on beet sugar growing in Victoria was £70,~00. I do not know whether he was mlsreported, or where his figures came from, but I must say that no· gleam of light has been pointed out by the Minister of Agriculture. The honorable gentleman says t.hat the beet-growing area has been increased from 800 acres to 1,150 acres. If 22s. per ton is still to be paid for the beet at the factory, and there is to be a greater loss in the future than .in the past in connexion with manufacturmg the sugar, what position will the taxpay~r be in 7 If the honorable member for GIppSland North were in the chamber, I would like to ask him whether any agreement has been arrived at by the business people of Maffra with a view to retaining this industry there. If the beet-growing industry is. profitable, how is it that the Government have a yard full of ploughs at the factory ~ When I was up at the factory, the fence could hardly be seen for the ploughs that were lying there.
Mr. HOGAN.-The Government have stopped cultivating.
Mr. CHATHAM.-They have stopped arowing beet themselves, and have ad~ised other people to take it on. In connexion wtih the Kilmany Park Estat.e, there was a clause compelling the settlers to grow either 10 acres or 5 acres of beet. The bailiff of the district had power to walk on to any holding, and to tell the farmer the precise corner of the block in which he was to grow the beet. The Department, in a circular, stated t.hat it was possible to grow 20 t.ons of beet to the acre. That would give £23 per acre for the product, but when. travelling through the district I found that the cultivation
412 Depannwnt oj [ASSEMBLY. ] Agric-ulture .
of each acre of beet cost from £10 to £13. The Government compelled the holders or the small areas to sign an agre,ernent to repay the cost oi puttiug ill the beet, and thu result was that when the beet was sold the return to the settlers was hardly £1 per acre. The set.tlers objected to the provision compelling them w grow 10 acres or 5 acres of beet. They said they could make more money by dairying, but the honorable member for Gippsland East said to them, (( Go on putting in beet j you will be compensated for any loss you may sustain." I do nQ,t know whether that ha.s been dOlle or not, but the Minister of Agriculture said that there had been losses, through compensating these people, to some extent. Mr. Harvey, the secretary of the Settlers' Association on the Boi13dale Estate, says that he grew beet last year; that it cost £13 pel' acre to grow it, and that he only realized about £4 per acre. This land was irrigated. The Government irrigated it at a cost of £4 per acre, but they only charged him lOs. per acre. Mr. Harvey saia. that if water was supplied free, he would still refuse to grow any beet on his block. We fiuJ that the Government has released these' people from the condition compelling them to grow a certain area of beet, and the Ministe,r says that a great number of voluntary grower.s have come to the rescue. Where does the advantage come in, seeing that a great number of men, who were compelled to grow beet in the past, are not now compelled to grow any ~ Mr. Cartledge said that he was compelled to grow 4 acres of beet, and got 3 tons, which gave him a return of £1 per acre, and that the cost of producing the beet was £13 per acre. The Gippsland people are anxious to retain this industry, and we cannot blame them for that. They are also anxious to have ot.her estates purchased in that district, and they came forward with a proposition to make up the difference between what one set of persons thought a certain estate was worth and wha.t another set· of persons thought it was worth. The honorable member for Gippsland North said that the growers who were compelled to grow beet sunk their own money in attempting to grow it. I fail to see how it can be said that they have sunk their own money if they had no money at lhe start. After having failed to grow beet, they are unable to meet their obligations. The loss has been sustained by other people. I
Mr. Chatham.
venture to say that a great ded of the land in the district is not suitable for beat growing. It may be suitable along the rive'r flats at Boisdale, and a small part of the Kilmany Park Estate may be suitable, but no one would at.tempt to grow be·at on the morass or on the higher part of the Kilmany Park Estate, where the people go to obtain gravel to make" their roads. In a great part of that territory there are 2 or 3 inches of light soil> and then there is gravel. That is the sort of land the people were compelled to t.ry to grow beet on. If we are going in for beet growing-and I think we should undertake all the industries we possibly can-I believe that the land in the Polwarth electorate offers far greater possibilities of success than any other part of the country where I have seell it attempted to grow beet. I remember sooing the beets ready for use at the 1Ylaffra. factory. The majority of them were from 4: inches to 5 inches in length, and were very small in circumference. I saw beet growing at Pirron Yaloak ; and each beet would be equal to ten of the beets grown in the Maffra district. I think that the beet-gTowing has' been undertaken in the wrong part of the State. I think that when we discover a leakage we should aUempt to stop it. If we are going to lose £10,000 here and £20,000 there, the taxpayers will revolt in the future. We cannot keep going an industry, in which there is no possible chance of success, at the cost of the general taxpayer. 1\1:r. Harvey said he would rather lose his block on the Boisdale estate than grow beet there. He said that he could only see failure staring him in the faco if he was compelled to grow beet. He was one of the moslJ successful dairymen I have ever met. As I have stated, the Government issued a circular in which it was s,a.id that 20 tons of beet could pe grown to the acre. I believe that iIi one year the experimental plot did yield about 20 tons to the acre. That was in 1908, which was an exceptional year. The season was particularly favorable for the cultivation of root crops. From that time up to the present there has been little over one-third of 20 tons grown on any acre of land in the district. In my opinion we should haVE} a thorough investigation into this matter. If there is to be an annual loss, let us. face the position and wipe away that loss. Let us insure that the deficits of the la.s~ three or four years shall not recur.
Department, 01 [21 DECEMBER, 1914.] Agriculture. 413
Mr. HOGAN.-There is one aspect of the matter to which I wish to direct the att,ention of the Minister of Agriculture. In last year's Estimates there was an amount of £7,450 voted for nonrecurring expenditure in connexion with the Maffra beet sugar factory. Of that a.mount £5,486 was expended. I understand that thah was for cultivation 1
Mr. HU'l'cHINsoN.-Yes. Mr. nOGAN.-It appears that the
Minister concluded that cultivation was not profitable, and has abandoned it. Having ahandoned it, he considers that the loss will not be so great.
Mr. HUTCHINsoN.-Yes. Mr. nOGAN.-The Minister says
there are two ways in which losses have been sustained in the past. In the first place, by growing beet, and in the second place· by manufacturing sugar. He is going to diminish the loss by discontinuing growing beet, and by inducing other people, if possible, to bear that loss. .
Mr. HU'l'CHINSoN.--.:They :a.re volun-tary growers. . Mr. HOGAN.-The Minister is hoping that the Department will be relieved of the loss involved by growing beet by some one else growing it. In other words, it is not profitable for the Department to grow beet at 22s. per ton. He hopes that some one else will grow beet.
1\1:1'. HUTcHINsoN. - \Vhen vacant blocks were not taken up, the Department, in order to see that the area was completed, went into occupation of various blocks. They did not have the best choice, and it certainly was not a profitable venture.
"Mr. HOGAN.-vVhen did' the Department set out to grow beet 1
Mr. HUTcHINsoN.-The Department have been assisting ever since the thing was started.
Mr. HOGAN.-The Department has been cultivating some land for beet ~
Mr. HUTCHINsoN.-Yes. Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Om.d
bl1,l'n) (to Mr. Hutchinson).-Did the Department cultivate these blocks it&elf 1
Mr. HUTCHINSoN.-The Department cultivated for some growers who were unable to do their work for various reasons, and where a block had not been cultivated, the Department, if possible, took that block in order to ha va the
ground occupied, and to provide extra beet for the factory.
Mr. HOGAN.-\Vas there any line ot demarcation between the cultivating done by the Department and the cultivating done by private growers 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON.--There were blocks th?t were cultivated right out by the Department, and sometimes a settler's block would be taken over by the Department.
Mr. HOGAN .·-Could the Minister furnish a balance-sheet, showing how much tl':: Department ma.de at growing beet at ?'?s. a ton, ar:d what it cost to produce 'it?
Mr. IIU'fCHINSON.--If possible, I will get that for the honorable member.
~lr. HOGAN.-We want to see whether it would have paid the Department if they had been able to get £3 per to'll for that beet.
~1r. HUTCHINSON.-If the figures are available, I will be very glad to get them for you.
Mr. HANNAH.-I listened with interest to the speech of the honorable member for Grenville. It was a very practical speech, and should help us considerably. 'Ve have been discussing this matter for nearly two hours, and I do not want the debate to die out without any good coming of it.
Mr. McLAcHLAN.-Move that the item be reduced.
Mr. HANNAH.-I do. not want to do that, and I am not going to be coerced by the honorable member. He ran away instead of staying in the chamber to fight the matter out. We have not heard his voice for a considera,ble period. , Mr. HU'l'CHINSON.-You are doing him an injustice. He was sitting at the desk in the rear.
Mr. HANNAH. - Are we going to have any improvement in this matter or are we going to be in the same position next year 7 I consider the suggestion made by the honorable member for Grenville very important. We have the factory, and the whole of the equipment at Maffra, but why should we not have some experiments in the Western District in the growing of beet? We might put in a few areas of 10 or 20 acres, and the cost of taking the beet to Maffra would be a mere bagatelle. We have been asked to give practical suggestions. The honorable member for Grenville has given one in regard to the growing of beet. Some of the land in the Maffra
4:14 Department 0/ [ASSEMBLY. ] Agriculture.
district may be suitable for growing beet, ,but if the statements are correct, some of it is not suitable. Why should we not have some experiments in other parts of the country ~ When we were inquiring into the question of unemployment this matter of growing beet successfully for the manufacture of suga.r was given great consideration. A number of experts gave their opinion, and one who had had a great deal of ex periellce showed that beet-growing would );lot be as successful in the l\Iaffra district as in some other parts of Lile ~tate. The country that the honorable member for Grenville spoke of has a greater rainfall than the Malfra district. If beet can be grown there in ten times greater quantities than in Maffra some of the existing difficulties could be overcome by carrying on experiments. I believe that all honorable members are anxious that this industry ~hould be made a success. \Va Hre certainly not doing our duty in allowing things to continue as they are, and some step forward should be wade to rescue the factory from failure. With the honorable member for }-"itzroy, I have, year after year, had something to say on this matter in the hope of helping the ind ustry . I think the suggestions that I have made, and the suggestions made by the honorable members for Fitzroy and Grenvil}e should receive attention. A Committee composed of practical men, members of this House, should be appointed to consider these suggestions and deal with the whole question. Instead of one factory, we might find that it would be advantageous to establish several. We know what a high price we have to pay for sugar as the result of those who are able to manipulate the production and the manufacture. The necessity for making the industry a success is very ~mportant. 'Ve should take every means to rescue it from total eclipse. For the Minister to simply listen to arguments and dO' nothing means a waste of time and energy. I hope the Minister will take the matter to the Cabinet to see if something can be done. There are pra.ctical men on this (the Opposition) side of the House who are anxious to do something in the interests of the country. A Committee of five Or seven members should be appointed to deal with the matter.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goullw,.n). - The Government have not
brought forward any convincing evidence' that. this industry is going to be made a success in the coming year. I opposed t.his proposal from the very beginning, and I have had forebodings in regard to it ever since. Every year we have presented to' us the prospect that something good is going to happen in the corning year, but it has not happened so far. There is something in the suggestions made by the honorable member for Grenville and the honorable member for Fitzroy. If the statements of the honorable member for Grenville are well-founded, it seems to me that we have attempted to grow beet in the wrong place. The soil is not suitable. Why not, therefore, try some other part of the State, as the honorable member for Collingwood suggested 1 Where beet has been grown in the Polwarth district it has been much supe,rior to that grown in GipP5-land. Why not make this experiment ~ We want to see the industry a success. The Government should see whether tbere is any possibility in this direction before the whole thing collapses.
Mr. HOGAN (to Mr. Hutchinson).Have you any experimental farms in the Pirron Yaloak district ~
:1\11'. HUTCHINSON.-No.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburl~).-It is worth while having an experiment. What should encourage us to go on fO'r another year is th~ fact that the prospects are that sugar will be very dear next year . We w ill have an opportunity of being able to take advantage of the market. Another reason that would warrant the Government in continuing the factory to some extent is that llew people have voluntarily entered on the growing of beet. When they go in yoluntarily they must have some justification for the belief in themselves, and some expectation based on past experience that they are going to make a. success of it.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Pitzroy).-Tbe triumph of hope over experience.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulb·urn.)-The experience of the past would not warrant the contmuance of the factory, but we hope the experience of the coming year will be better. If t·he Government desire to give a full opportunity to the industry they should test beet-growing in other parts of the State. If it is a failure at Maffra this year it will be condemned out and out, and i.
Department of [21 DECEMBER, 1914.] Agriculture. 415
will then be too late to experiment in other places. 'Ve should experiment in the 'Vestern District this year, and in other suitable places. Why confine the attempts at growi~g beet to one particular spot? The evidence we have is that that locality. is not the most suitable. I think there is a great deal in what has been urged on the Government, and not in any adverse spirit to the industry. The Government should certainly try to meet the views of honorable members.
·Mr. SOLLY.-This is a very important problem, and should commend. itself to the Minister of Agriculture and to country members. We have had some very able discussions on the question of decentralization, and honorable members on both sides of the House have expressed the opinion that for the progress of the State they would like to see industries established in country centres wherever possible, and especially industries that are local and can be carried on with satisfaction and economy. This industry appears to me to be one that should be fostered ana nourished, and why it has been so long neglected from a scientific and business point of view I cannot understand. Honorable members on both sides of the House have frequently expressed their opinions on . this question on the Estimates, and the Minister of Agriculture has always said that the turn of the tide had taken place, the problem had been solved, and, at last, the industry was going to be a commercial success. That has been the opinion expressed for quite a number of years to my knowledge. The honorable member for Fitzroy quoted from an al?le article that appeared in an American journal on this important question. He showed how, by the· scientific cultivation of beet, great success had been obtained; and the honorable member for Grenville, who is an agriculturist and has studied farming all his life, suggests that some o~her fields should be tested where the chmate and soil may be more suitable than in the Maffra district. Noone would regret more than I. if this industry were closed up. I want to see State industries established outside the metropolis. This industry is natural to the country, and every opportunity shoula be given for its successful development. I agree with the honorable member for Gippsland North, who is very anxious to have the industry
retained in Maffra and made a success. It gives employment. It gives profitable employment to those who cultivate the beet, and gives employment to those engaged in manufacturing the beet into sugar. Has sufficiently careful consideration been given to the question by the Department of Agriculture? It is evident to 1)1e, and it must be apparent to every one who has watched the industry, that that thoughtful consideration has not been given that is essential for the success of the industry. I hope the Minister is more in earnest than his predecessor was. If so, he will go into the matter and get the best expert evidence. I have not found in any Liberal Government the industry essential for the progress of anything like this. These Go-
. vernments have been so neglectful. There is not one farm under the control of the State that is anything like a success, but' they could be made a success with a sympathetic Minister and proper management and supervision. I rose more for the purpose of drawi~g the attention of h011-arable members to the estimate for the financial year 1913-14. The Treasurer in his Budget for that year estimated that the total income from the· Maffra beet sugar factory would be £47,187, but the amount realized was only £16,134. Information should be given to the Commi ttee as to the difference between the estimate and the actual amount realized.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-Is that amount the revenue 1
Mr . SOLLY.-Yes. There is a difference of £31,000.
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-It is due to the failure of the crop.
Mr. SOLLY.-I know it is easy to make some excuse. What was the cause of the failure of the crop 1
Mr. HUTCHINSoN.-The dry season. Mr. SOLLY.-It is evident that a sub
stantial amount of rain is necessary for the growing of beet successfully, and the Government have selected a place where that rainfall does not exist.
Mr. HUTCHINsON.-An unfortunate year.
Mr. SOLLY.-The Government have been carrying on the business at great loss when, by thoughtful management and cotlsideration, it could have been made a
. financial success, and more employment could have been given. It is one of the most important country industries that could be established. It is one of those
416 Department of [ASSEMBLY. ] Agriculture.
things that the Government should give most careful consideration to. I am sur~ prised that the industry has been allowed to flounder into its present c(}ndition. We have referred to the loss year after year. The honorable member for ~renville said that wherever leakages eXIsted it was the duty of the Government to point them out to the public; and to protect the public funds. We find that not the slightest attempt has been made, by the Minister to answer any argument, nor to put forward any idea of his own, as to what will be the future of this very important industry. Country members have stated on several occasions that they desire to see the various country centres prospering, and to see a population established that will develop our resources. These places would provide a'n outlet for ca pital and labour. I believ~ those ho~orable memh.~rs were honest m expressmg that vie",. What do they intend to do with a Government who are blighting the hopes of young Australians 1 '
Mr. ELMsLIE.-They are blighting the Treasury bench.
Mr. SOLLY.-They said if our party got on that side we would blight the Treasury bench. They have blighted ~t for the last twenty years) and they blight everything they come in contact with. Let us have some statesmanlike action in regard to this industry. It was pointed out ill the article quoted by the honorable member for Fitzro'y that, in America, they make a success of everything they undertake be,cause they are masters of detail. vVe should study the details carefully if we wish to make these ventures successful. I trust some forward move will be made, and that greater thought will be given to this important problem. If the Minister has any character at all I hope he will use some determination with the object of making this industry a success.
Mr. HUTCHINSON (Minister of Agriculture) .-I a.ppreciate the discus~ion that has taken place. It has been of a temperate character, and. the suggestions made have been made In .a propp,r spirit, and are helpful. I admIt that such discussions should take place on the Estimates, because the venture has been unsatisfactory from a State point of vi~w. The honorable member for GrenVIlle pointed to. the suitability o.f the CDlac district, and particularly o.f Pirron Yal-oak, for the cultivation Df beet. One
can und-erst&ll.d that that country, with its rich soil and bounteous rainfall, could grow very fine, fuIl·bodied beet. Now there are two difficultie~. The main dim. culty is Dne that has been found in con .. nexion with the operatiDns of the factory.
Mr. SOLLY.~Are you speakin~ from t;;.Kpert knowledge 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON .......... I am speaking from the e1r.perience Df the expert. A canvass has been made, and it has been carried a considerable dis.tanoo from Maffra into other parts to get vohmteert4 to grow beet. If the beet is grown any considerable distance from the factory, as it is worth only 22s. a ton at the factory, and being a bulky commodity, the freight makes the cultivation 'unprofitable, even though the crop is good. The experience of the past shows that it is unprofitable, even where beet can be grown very well, to grow it very far away from the factory because of the freight.
Mr. CHATHAM.-It will be necessary then to remove the mill.
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-I quite admit that there are other parts of the State w here beet could be grown better than at Maffra, and wher~ the factory would have a greater chance of success. The Go-' vernment have entered into the possessiDn of an insolvent estate. The factory is at Maffra, and there is a section of the community there who are satisfied that they can make it profitabl~. When the Government found a big loss OD. the factory tbul year, and on the cultivation of the beet, they deliberately withdrew from any further participation in the loss. There was an urgent representation made by a very public-spirited community who said "Give us a chance for another year. 'Ve re.present a section of the growers who can grow beet profitably. \Ve can induce other men to come in voluntarily to help us, and we. undertake, if you give us this year's experiment, to make the thing a success, and to show that be,etgrowing can be profitably carried on in the Maffra district." That is the only reason the State has decided to continue the factory fDr another year. It is to enable the growers to make good their word. The State feels that so much has heen invested by these grow~rs in establishing beet-growing that it is only 2, fair and proper thing to give them this one year of trial. Honorable members can rest satisfied that if the loss of previous years is repeated the Government will not ask the House to vote this money again.
Department of [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agrw'ulture. 417
Mr. aaATHAM.-It is on probation 1 extra laying much q,uicker than the, hen Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes: that is who does not lay so much. I may say
clearly unders.tood. that, personally, I do not know anything Mr. DOWNWARD.-If these men grow about these egg-laying competitions. I
beftt., a.nd deliver it at 228. a. ton, will never owned a hen, and I do not know that prevent the Government from hav- what the egg-laying capacity of a hen is, ing a. ro~ in the manufacture 7 whether she be a Leghorn or any other
Mr. HUTCIIINSON.·--1 ~aid that tho sort. I must say, however, that this exestimated loss was a.bout £5,000. If we penditure of £550' appears to me to be can keep' the loss down to tha.t amouIlt a waste of public money. There is a it is advisable for t.he industry that it large sum set apart for this purpose should be shouldered by the Government, every year on the Estimates. I know my because we have what would be a big honorable friend, the honorable member white elephant. in the factory if it were for Melbourne, has taken a very keen innot in operation, and t,he loss to the State terest in this matter, and he may be able would go on even if the industry ceased. to point out the advantages of these eggIIonorabl'8 members desire that the laying competitions at the Burnley Hortigtowers should be given this o'pportunity cultural Grounds. I have endeavoured of proving their bona fides. We have from time to time during discussions the assurance that they have widened the on this subject to elicit from the a.rea, that the cultivation is good, that Department of Agriculture the advanthere is a bigger element of irrigation, tages -derived from giving prizes of this and that t.he prospects are better than description, but I have failed on every ever befors. occasion to get any satisfactory response.
Mr. CFIATHAM.-Can you tell me the If this money is set apart simply for the amount that it has cost to compensate purpose of giving work to fo\\'ls, then I the men V • am against it, because I believe the
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-There ha.s b~n ~'noney could be better utilized in employno direct compensation, but there have 1l1g some of our men who are out of work been losses where men have not been at the present time. The predecessor of able to pay the Sta.te. the present Minister of Agriculture Mr.
Mr. SOLI~Y.~I desire to draw att-en- Graham, was asked on various occ~sions tion to the following item:- what were the advantages gained from . Expen~e . .; iac:idental to egg-laying COmI)€ti- the money spent in this direction, but the
tlOll, £550. honorable gentleman seemed to have no I do not know whether there is any par- particular argument in favour of the exticular virtue in this egg-laying competi- pe~diture, while ~t the same time he ~etiOll or not. Some people seem to think framed .from saymg tha~. he would dlSthere is a good deal of immorality at-. pense WIth these co~petitlons. ~ e ~nd tached to it. I was reading some' little that t~e m~ney. of ~he taxpayers IS bemg time ago a series of articles in the Argus spent In tIllS dlrectIOn e:ery y,ear, and I ?ewsp~per about ~he " man on the job," contend that the exp~n~!~ur~ IS not warm whIch the wrIter deplored the fact ranted. unless the !I~hmster m charge of that the man who had a good Govern- the Department can sho~ that there is ment job~such as navvy work on the ~ome advantage to ~e denved !r.oll1 carryGovernment railways--was not putting mg on these e~g-laymg competItlOllS every enough energy into his work, so that he yeu. I belIeve that hens are brought only \vheeled one barrow-load of stuff from all pa~t.s of the State to take part in when he might have wheeled two. The the competItIons. argument on the other side was that the Mr. ROGERs.-And from outside the man who wheeled two barrow-loads under State, too. wh~t ~s known as the "speeding-up" . Mr. SOLLY.-I believe, also, that this pohcy 13 worn out much quicker than the is. the onlr couJ?-try under the s,:n that man who takes his time and does a fair gIVes speCIal prIzes for hens laymg the thing. It appears to me that the same largest number of eggs. argument might be applied in connexion Mr. ROGERS.-It is done in all the with this egg-laying competition. It other States. might be said that the hen who lays two Mr. SOLLY.- Did they take it from eggs where another hen only lays one will the Department of Agriculture in Vicbe worn out by the wear and tear of her toria V
418 Department of [ASSEMBLY.] Agl'w·ulture.
Mr. ROGERs.-We took it from the other States.
l\fr. SOLL Y .-Then we were lagging behind ~
.Mr. WARDE.- iC Laying" behind. IVlr. SOLLY.-Now it appears that,
owing to this latest scientific effort in the hen world, we are right up to date. It is really marvellous. I did not think it was in the Department of Agricultureparticularly with the Director who is now at the head of it-to dream of bringing the Department, up to date in such a way as this. I am not anxious to discuss this item at any great length, but what I certainly want to know from the Minister of Agriculture is to what extent his Department intends to go on with these competitions, Does he intend to continue this annual competition amongst the fowls and to extend an invitatJon to New Zealand and other places outside Victoria to send their fowls over here 1 Or is it the intention of the Department to wipe this competition off -the sheet after the present year, so that the money may be spent to better purpose and greater use- ' fulness, as far as the State is concerned 1 I admit that the amount, £550, is not very large.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-It would buy a nice cottage.
Mr , SOLLY.-Yes; many a deserving working-man in the State would be glad to have the amount to build a cottage. However, I merely wish to draw the Minister's attention to this item with the view of learning whether he intends to continue these egg-laying competitions in the future. I want to know what the policy of the Government is in connexion with this important problem. I think it is about the only problem the Government are capable of solving.
1\1r. HANNAH.-With the present cost of wheat the poultry business is doomed.
Mr . SOLLY .-1 do not know what the result of the competition will be next year.
Mr. CHATHAM.-The fowls will go on strike.
Mr . SOLLY .-If I had been in this ' particular line I should have gone on strike long ago. I repeat that we ought to know what the policy of the Government is in this matter.
l\ir. ROGERS.-I do not intend to follow· in the same strain as the honorable member for Carlton, who, as he
admits, does not know much about this subject. I would like to have some information from the Minister, however, on one point. There is a considerable sum put down on the Estimates in connexion with these competitions, but it is generally believed by people outside that the Government are making a good deal of money out of these birds. The fowls which are sent to these competitions are the pick of Australia.. Each person has a right to send in six fowls, and the person who sends in these birds gets practically nothing. He does not even get the eggs, which are sold to the Railway Department for Is. ld. per dozen, which, in my opinion, is not a reasonable price, considering tha,t the eggs are very fresh. These competitions have been in existence for a number of years, with the object, I understand, of showing the people who have poultry what fowls are most productive of eggs. I think the Government is justified in helping the poultry i~dustry in this way, but what I would lIke to see is a true balance-sheet of the expenditure and income in connexion with the operations carried on at Burnley. Hundreds of people have been going into the poultry industry since the ~overnment went in fo<r these competitIOns, a.nd many of those people have lost every half-penny, because they have really been misled. The Government, I understand, in connexion with the operations at Burnley, do not allow for the expensive upkeep of the fowls, nor for the cost of building the fowl houses on which large sums have been spent. 'On the other hand, they have taken the \V hole of the profit arising from these egg-~aying competitions, the only return poss~ble to the competitor being the gettmg of a first or second prize, which certainly enables him to obtain four or five times the price for his eggs Or birds that he could get before. I would like, as I have said, to see a thorough balance~heet, so .th~t men and women who go ~n for thIS mdustry might have a true Idea of what they are entering upon. As I have said, I have known men and ~omen .to . lose every sixpence they put mto tlus mdustry. These people have been deceived by observing that the Government has apparently made £400 or £500 a year out of this bu~iness, whereas, if there was a fair balance-sheet submitted, the results might be seen to be very different. I would, therefore,
Departrnent 0/ [21 DECEMBER, 1914.] Ag·r. culture. 419
suggest to' the Minister that the Department should issue a comprehensive ba.lance-sheet with regard to the Burnley competitions. I believe that in time there will not be much of a loss in connexion with the operations at Burnley, although there is a loss at present.
Mr. HUTCHINSON (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 think the Committee will be grateful that this item is on the list, if it were only for the happy speech which has been delivered by the honorable member for Carlton. The Burnley competitions have been carried out very successfully, and have led to Victorian pm.lltry really taking a foremost position among the poultry of the world. Certainly the results gained a.t Burnley during the last year have established re~ cords, and these competitions have had a very marked effect in improving the breeds of poultry, and have given a great impetus to the poultry industry generally. Next to the fruit industry, the poultry industry of Victoria has duri ng the last few years made the most rapid strides of any industry, and in spite of what the honorable member for Melbourne has said, therea.re many people who are making a good living entirely out of poultry raising. The Government have found that these competitions have become increasingly popular each year, so that the Department find t.he difficulty becoming greater in dealing with the large number of .applications from those who want to enter theiI' birds. Up to this year there have been seventy pens, but ow.ing to the great rush of applicants, the number of pens has been increased to 100. This has enabled the Department to divide the fowls into two sections, so as to· test the dry-feeding and the wet-feeding systems with regard to the productivity of the fowls. It is quite true that the Department has ·a contract with the Railway Department, which takes all the eggs, which are used on the dining cars, and this is why the travellers to and from the other States on the Victorian railways speak so highly of the eggs which are provided there. They are ,all Burnley eggs. It is also true that the Railway Department gets the eggs at the prioe of Is. 1d. a dozen all the year round. It must be remembered that at Burnley they have to feed the competing hens for the whole· of the year, and tl1ey have to pay, of course, the necessary
caretakers and attendants' expenses, the result being thali the expenditure and the receipts very nearly balance. They do not quite balance yet. Last year showed a loss to the Department of ,about £10, and we anticipate that this vear will show about the same result.
Mr. ROGERs.-How many fowls are there this year ~ Are there not abont 600 ~
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-I believe so. Honorable membe-rs will notice that al.though we have increased the accommodation from 70 to 100 pens, the vote shows a reduction of £95 on last year. This is due to the bct that the extra money was expended last year on the additi<?nal thirty pens which we put up for thIS year's competitions.
Mr. HANNAH.-I think that in connexion with this matter the public should know exactly where we stand. 'Va are told that at Burnley there are 600 fowls, which are supposed to be the champion production of this State, and, in fact, of the whole Commonwealth, and yet the Minister informs us that on these competitions there is a loss to the State of £10 per annum.
Mr. OMAN.-That is for Government control.
Mr. HANNAH.-Nonsense! If the honorable member cannot show more intelligence than to make such a sta.temen't, it is enongh to make one feel disgusted with representatives who cannot contribut~ more to the intelligence of a disCUSSIon.
Mr. DowNwARD.-A number of private people m<tke a good living out of poultry raising.
Mr. HANNAH.-I am trying to discover how it is that the Government show a loss of £10 per annum in COll
nexion with these competitions, although they have not had to incur ,any expense as regards the preparation of the fowls, and are only at the expense of feeding them. I think this is a point upon which some information should be sup-plied by the Minister. I take it that the Department buys its food as cheaply as other people, and under the whole of the circumstances I think honorable members are entitled to know why it cannot produce a more favorable balance-sheet.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-I have no objection to the item under discussion. I think every encouragement should be given to improving our position in this
• 420 Department 01 [ASSEMBLY.] Agriculture.
respect. The Government, for some time past, has been spending a sum of money in this direction, and I think with good results. Increased attention is being given by people throughout the State to the ind ustl'y, which is one we might well spend a considera.ble sum of money upon. Grcilt Brit.ain is paying away to other cOLl.l1'tl'ies something like £n ,000,000 for eggs, and of that amount we do not get a single shilling. There is a fine market open for us in the Old Country, and the Government are acting wisely in ~mdeayouring to create interest in this industry, which is a valuable adjunct to the farm. In re-cent years people have been embarking entirely in the poultry in-. dustry, and, in some cases, with good results. Russia, I believe, secures about 40 per cent. of tha.t £9,000,000. This i!'! developmental work in the country,. and it is an industry the Government should endeavour to foster and encourage. But it was not for that I rose to speak. I wish to refer to the Maffra beet-growing industry. A statement has been made that the soil where the beet. is grown is not suitable for the growth of the beet. Por a considerable time prior to the establishment of the factory at Maffra a most careful analysis had been made of the soil by experiments, and comparisons were made with the soil of countries where beet was successfully grown. The climate also was found to be suit,able, and compared well with the climates of other countries where beet was cultivated successfully . Not one word has passed from the lips of any of the 'speakers except the Minister in the recognition of the efforts of the people who have embarked in thn.t industry.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-Oh, yes. Mr. l\!l:cLACHLAN.-I do not remem
ber. The Minister commended the pn hlie spirit of these people.
Mr. HANNAH.-I desire to repudiate the statement of the honorable member for Gippsland North. Probably he was not in the chamber when I made a few remarks.
The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ou'rTRIM) .-Is this a point of order 1
Mr. HANN AH.-I want· to make a personal explanation.
The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. OUTTRUf:).-\Vould the honorable memo ber wa.it until after the honorable member now speaking has finished 1
Mr. l\1:cLACHLAN.-The Minister said tha t the people of the Maffra district had shown considerable public spirit in embarking upon the industry. If the State loses, the people in the industry lose also, and. l:lome have lost to the extent of £2,000. They are, therefore, backing their fancy, as the statement goes. The place is suitable. The late Ml'. Allan McLean, who had as good a knowledge of land as anyone, with all due deference· to honorable members, proved to the satisfaction of the people at any rate that the land was suitablA. Vve cannot go behind analyses.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-He lost his money in it.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-He did not lose it on account of the soil, nor on account of the climate. The subject of beet-sugar manufacture was introduced to this State by the Age newspaper, in a series of articles written by the la.te Mr. Selat€ney. I do not say that he was a thorough expert in beet growing, but he certainly could write on the subject. It was the influence which he brought to bear upon the people and upon some of the legislators of that time that led Mr. McLean to take up this subject, and Mr. McLean brought it under the notice of the Maffra people. It was open to anyone throughout the State to take the same step8, but no other place, so far as I know, took: up the subject. I have an idea that very many years ago, at a place called ROBstown, an attempt was made to grow beet, but no part of the State except Maffra took an interest in the establishment of the industry ~ People there were preparf!d to backup their faith in it ly putting down their money, and they put down their money to the extent of son'l thousands. They lost their money, and so did the Government, but the money wa.s not lost through a, bad climate or'a bad soil. No man with the faintest knowledge of land would say that the Boisdale land is bad. It is right in the bed of a river-alluvial land of the finest quality. There is no bottom to it. In fa,ct, that is one of its disadvantages, because it does not retain moisture as some soils do; and requires a great neal of rain, which, unfortunately, it does not get at the time required for beet growing. The failure was not th.rough the climat,e. nor through the soil, but through the ignorance of the promoters. Very few people had know-
Department 0/ [21 DECEMBER, 1914·1 Agricultu-re. 421
ledge of beet growing, and there are not the maize would not cob, and the many people with that knowledge now. potatoes would not grow. The drought The Maffra. people are getting knowledge was responsible for that, as it is responby experienca. 'Vhen the Germans took sible in the northern areas for there now charge of the factory they discovered that being no crops nor grass. We had some parts of it had been wrongly put up, and crops and some grass, because we can it cost some hundreds of pounds to put rely upon ordinary crops, but not on the machinery right. The Germa.ns did beet. So far as beet is concerned, there make'a factory on sound and substantial is one thing that this House, or this Golines. That has been proved by the fact vernment, if it continues to live, will
. have to do, and that is to provide a the.t during twelve years that machmery scheme of irrigation. I do not care what had not depreciated. For the last Government is in power so long as it twenty years that area of Victoria has attends to the wants of the country. The been comparatively dry, but the Sale honorable member for Carl'ton refers to and IHaffra. districts were known thirty the wants of Carlton, when around that or forty years ago to be wet districts- elect{)rate there are something like s:) W€t that sheep there were subject to 700,000 people on 92,000 acres of land. foot-rot. One man with fifteen years' ex- We want these people spread out in the perience in the Boisdale district says he country, and the only way to spread has only known one season in fifteen them is by the Government assisting in the similar to the sea,sons of the past. What establishment of these industries. The had to be contended with was ignor,a~ce Maffra people have' done well in regard on the part of the promoters of the. m- to this beet-growing, and they have 'DOW
dustry and drought. The drought kIlled' done what was never done in the past. the industry, so far as the growers are They have voluntarily stepped forward concerned. I suppose the average crop and offered to grow beet if the Government would run, in the seasons we have had, keeps the factory open. That is showing at from 5 tons to 7 tons an acre on un- a public spirit, as the Minister said. They irrigated land. We have seen the time, are growing a larger area than before, and in the middle of November, when the the well-wishers of the country will look beets promised to a,verage 20 tons. The to the Government to keep the factory dry season would then set in, and con- open. What is a loss of a few thousands tinue up to the time the beets were taken of p.ounds if, ultimately, we get an inoff the ground. Beets ma,ke no progress dustry of this kind successfully estabwithout moisture, and they were no lished 1 Anyone who pays the least atbetter when taken out in February than tention to developmental work, and the if they were taken out at the end of establishment of industriel, knows that November. Instead of 20 tons to the you cannot make a, success straightway. acre, t.he average was something like 5 An HONORABLE MEMBER.-This has had
, tons. Of course, that would not pay twenty years. the grower, and the growers themselves Mr. McLACHLAN.-That is a missay that, without irrigation, beet grow- statement. The factory was closed for ing will not pay. It is asked why this twelve years. Several 0.£ the men have factory should not be taken elsewhere. grown 'beet successfully, and the proof Every well-wisher of Victoria would like that that can be done lies in the fact to see similar factories all ov,er the State. that men are prepared to back their As the Minister stated, freight is a con- opinions by growing the beet. Some of sjderabh item in the growing of beet. them declare, and have proved it, that Growers say that, if they have to pay the beet will pay good wages al!d return 5s. a tOll for freight, beet growing will a profit. If we can spend within our not pa.y them. They have to get beet own country the £1,000,000 we send out carried at almost next to nothing to of it for sugar, good luck to us, I say, make it a success. \Vith irrigation it an~ the Govern~ent ~hat ~ndeavours to would be a. success. The chief man at brmg that about 1S actmg wlsely. Boisda]e, an excellent farmer from Mr. HANNAH.-During this discusOrbost, stated that he would put all his sion I never heard any reflection upon land under beet if he had irrigation. To the men enga.ged in the growing of beet give honorable members an .idea of the in the Maffra district. Rather the. conkind of seasons we have had in th,e Bois- trary. One or two other honorable memdale district, I may say that two years ago bers and myself were endeavouring to get
422 Department of [ASSEMBLY. ] AgricultU1·e.
from the Minister information as to the exact position of things, with the object of saving this industry from extinction as the result of the failures which have taken place up to the present. There was not one word of reflection or discouragement. This State shoulC1 not only produce the sugar required for its own consumption, but should produce sugar for export throughout Australasia. I have not heard the Minister definitely promise that he would experiment during the, coming season in one or two places outside of Maffra. I should like to see if beet-growing could be successful ill some other parts of the State, particularly in the Western District. The honorable member for Grenville seemed to put his finger upon a very important point in connexion with the whole matter. I should like to get from the Minister a promise that he Hill have experiments made in other places, with the object of seeing whether beet cannot be produced more prolifically. I do not think the State would object to an experiment of that nature in two or three other places, even if it cost £2,000 or £3,000.
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-I indicated that the difficulty in experime'nting at any distance was that you could not do it prouably, because of the freight. I have already made a note of the honorable member's suggestion, and shall be glad to discuss the matter with the experts to see if experiments could be carried out.
1\11'. EL1HSLIE.-\Ve have had a profitable and, I hope, an interesting discussion on sugar. We have heard a little about eggs. I am going to say something about wheat, and t,hen we may finish up with irrigation. I would cil.!l attention to the item of incidental expenses where provision is made for the Journal of Ag'riculture. I have the last number of the journal, containing an article headed "Wheat and the War." In the main it concerns the possibilities of the production of wheat in Victoria. For the article, generally, I have nothing but commendation, but for some portions of it I have condemnation, because I think the gentleman who wrote the article has gone outside his functions altogether, and done something detrimental to what I believe is his object, and that is to spur on the farmers to greater production and so improve llot only their own position, but the condition of the State. He pointe out how small a portion of the agricul-
tural possibilities of the country are being taken advantage of, but, unfortunately, he has said sometliing else for which I have nothing but condemnation. First of all he states-
It is to the farmer wo must look primal'iI} for all e~~tension of the aoreage cropped .. Unless he is firmly convinced of the possibili· tiei:i of the position, his response will not be marked. If he can feel satisfied that the pric(t is likely to be high, that ho will be nllowecl H,b~olvte freedom to dispose of his wheat in the dearest market without artifioial restriotions in the shape of fixed prices, his rc"pc;nsc ie likely to be ~minently satisfactory.
Mr. DowNwARD.-What is wrong about ·that 1
Mr. ELMSLIE.-It seems to me to be an undue interference with Parliament. What right has an officer to criticise what this Parliament in its wisdom has thought it advisa,ble to do in fixing prices 1 I do not object to the farmer, or any other . man who puts his toil into the land, getting the best results he can, and I shaH never be one to raise any objection to tn.at under fair and proper conditions. That is the first portion of the article. There is another part I also take ob jection to-
One of the most helpful factors in inducing farmers to go in for larger acreages would be a positive assurance in advance from the Government that the price of wheat will not he fixed-that the farmer will be at liberty to sell' his goods in the dearest market. He bad to sell hiR wheat 'at Is. 9d. per bushel in 1894 and ] 895-a price at which there was no profit to be m,tde. If it is logical to fix the price when, owing to the operation of the law of supply am], demand, prices are rising, it is equally logical: to fix prices when the cash value of onr staple commodity falls below the level at which it can. be growll at a profit. Suoh negative assistanoe is all that the majority would require.
This gentleman is entitled' to his own opinions. and I have no objection to his: expressing them in the proper place, but the proper place is not an article designed to encourage farmers and land-owners to enormously increase the production of wheat. It seems that he is at once breeding discontent and arousing fear, which will have the opposite effect to what he desires. I do not want to see wheat at Is. 9d. a bushel. I want to see high wages, whether for the artisan or the farmer, and the farmer cannot get properremuneration with whe,at at a low price like that. It is not from that 'point of view I am finding fault, but there are statements in the article that are altogether out of place in a Government prQduction which is published broadcast. Those statements rai<:;e fear and doubt as
Department of [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agriculture. 423
to the result of what is going to happen. 'Thus far, I speak of the article in condemnation.
Mr. SOLLY.-vVho is responsible, 1 Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do not want to
mention the ,gentleman's name. The article is in the December number.
Mr. HOGAN.-You cannot criticise them effectively unless you go right into it.
Mr. MENZIES.-It is written by a man who .is rendering great service to this State.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-That is not the point. I recognise that there is much in this article of great value, and because of that I do not want to condemn the writer altogether, but I think that the two paragraphs I have read are wholly out of place in a publication of tbis kind.
?tiro OMAN .-How if it had come from the Government, and not from an officer?
Mr. ELMSLIE.-If it had come from the Government, I would have condemned it. It is really telling the Government not to re-introduce the Price of Goods Act, which is legislation this House has thought fit to pass.
Mr. DOWNWARD.-Could not the Government deal with speculators without having to deprive farmers of the best possible price for their wheat?
Mr. ELMSLiE.-I do not object to the farmer getting the best price. I would render every possible assistanoe in l'blUoving parasites who fasten themselves ()n industries, and who do nothing in the way of production. They rob the pro-ducer and the consumer, too. But I' want to draw attention to some pregnant and significant remarks that the article also contains. The more we extend agriculture, where the land is suitable, the better for everyone in the State. The article further states--
Again, many of the larger farmers, with hold· i ngs ranging over 1,000 acres, rarely put in more than one-quarter to one-fifth of their cuI· tivated areas. With the present inducement, uamely, the probability of an inflated price fa,1 in excess of anything obtained for the last fort~ years-they should certainly cultivate a much hU'ger proportion of their holdings.
T consider that a man with over i,oOO acres is not a farmer-
Thc large land-owners and gritziers of Aus· tralia could make a more material contribution to increased acreage than any other section of the community. Consider, for example, the case ill Victoria. 1'he1'e are 1,677 holdings
varying from 2,000 to 50,000 \\cres each ill area. The average size of these 1,677 estates is 7,176 acres. 1'he amount of land priv:ttely owned in these estates is nearly 9,000,000 acreH, whilst the total land held under Crown lease and pri\'cLtely exceeds 12,000,000 acres. Of this total only 595,815 acres are under cultivation. Much of this land is, of course, remote from the ra.ilway and suitable only for grazing. On the other hand, there is fairly la.rge portion, par· ticularly in the Western District, that is suit· able for wheat growing.
Of 9,000,000 acres of privately-owned land, and 12,000,000 acres of Crown land, there are not quite 600,000 acres under cultivation. That seems an appalling state of things.
1\1.r. DowNwARD.-And the land in smaller holdings shows no better percentage.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do not doubt' the honorable member, for I know the keen interest which he takes in these matters. If what he says is so, it s.hows the vast field for increasing our cultivation. It should make us consider whether in the hands of some people there is not too much land that is not being made the best use of. There is one place that always makes me angry when I see it. It is land which could not be bought for £10 an acre for wheat-growing, but all that has been done there is to II ring" the timber. The land is covered with fallen trees, and even for grazing purposes it is not put to half its capacity. The man who can allow his land to remain in that condition IS an enemy to his country, because he is not putting 'it to the best use. I think the 1\1inister of Agricnlt:ll'e could profitably spend a good many hours during the recess devoting his attention to that aspect ?f tl~e situation. Much of our land whICh IS
lyinO' idle is situated alongside the railway~ Therefore, I hope that the. time will speedily come when the land. WIll be put to its proper use, and the raIlways made I110re profitable than they are at the present time.
Mr. CHAT'HAM.-I desire to call attention to the following vote:-
Expenses on permanent improvemen~s ~nd experimelltal works at the Wyuna IrrIgatIOn l?arm, £500.
I wish to point out that, according to the balance-sheet issued, the income from dairying at the WYlma farm for last year was £72 lOs. 4d'. I cannot possibly understand that. I was told that they had ninety head of cattle on the farm last year.' The State Rivers and Water
424 Department 0/ [ASSEMBLY.] AgricultU're.
Supp~y Commission some time ago issued certaIn "Advice for Settlers," in the course of which it was stated that from the sale of milk from five cows in Victoria £95 was obtained. It was also stated that the sale of cream from twentyfour cows realized over £300. Yet on that \Vyuna Experimental Fa.rm, where. th~re were niaety head of cattle, the daIryll1g return was only £72. I was told that last year there were ~w:enty head of .ca~tle milking. On inqUlnng why t.he .dairylng return was so small, they saId It was a bad season. I pointed out that the balance-sheet was up to the end of June, before the drought affected things. The reply was, C C Last year we had a variety of breeds of cattle and although we had only twenty head' of cattle milking, we had to keep six bulls." Some time ago when I was in that district I asked a man whether he received any benefit from following the methods adopted at the experimental farm. He replied, cc Oh, yes. We always do the very opposite. If we followed them at all we would be landed in Queer-street.' I Although the farm is 540 acres in extent, there are buildings upon it to the value of £1,979. T~ere is an additional item of £244 for buIldings' although I am not certain what they are. At any rate, it works out at· £4 worth of buildings to each acre of land. N ow for every £100 worth of buildings erected an additional amount for depreciation and interest ha.s to be allowed. Although an attempt is made there to show· people how to farm, they wound up with a loss of £695 for the ye~r. There has been an exrenditure on the experimental part of the farm of £125, so that there was a loss of l1e~rly £600 on the actual farm work. III conn~xiOll with the return of only £72 from the dairying branch, I might- state that a page of the A gricultll1'al J olf'rnal is devoted to a notice respecting the sale of eighteen calves. The pedigree of the last calf mentioned is stated to be unknown, .and the price is given as 5 guineas. The aggregate price of. the calves advertised would be 80 gUlueas. Yet it is stated that the return from the cows is only £72. In a circular which
. was issued when the estat-e was made aVllila.ble for application, it was stat-ed that 500 cows "'ere to be milked on the CU· .. 1, :-;,nd that the land was to be laid out in lucerne. They were going to demonstrate what could be made out of a dairv farm conducted on proper lines. On
Mr. Chatham.
another page of the Agricultural Jour,,:ul there is an announcement respecting "Poultry for Settlers." The prices asked for the birds from the poultry farm at Wyuna range from £1 Is. to lOs. 6d. each. We find that the return from the poultry farm was £190 for the year. If a man wanted to get one of those fowls he had to apply to " W. C. Rake, Poultry Mana~er, \Vyuna Farm," who, I suppose, receIves £4 or £5 a week for his work. I believe that the £240, the additional amount for buildings, was for the erection of fowlhouses. There are no end of pulleys to work slides for the fowls, and for '\\"atering the chickens there is an inverted bottle which works automatically. \tVhen the chickens drink out of the sardine tin provided, there is a float which descends as the water comes down, and a few more drops come through for the chickens. to drink. This experimental farm, on whIch there is a loss oaf £695, is, therefore, providing an object lesson to the farmers of how to water their chickens. There are fOUl' silos on the estate, but for want of a little paint to countera?t the action of the acids, there are holes III them through which one could put one's hand. The ~ilos have a. stora.ge. capacity of about 300 tOllR. A couple of months ago I was informed that they were buying fodder for their horses from some of the chaff merchants at Ballarat, and taking it to the farm, a distance of 200 miles. To-day there' are some splendid crops of lucerne, on which they are feeding the horses. The number of horses is set down as twenty, but some of them are only young animals. I do not look upon a man as the manager of a farm if he is told from Melbourne what he has to do. I have a {Mom myself, and I do not ~rite to .the man in charge one word of InstructIOn. It is only when I go to t~e farm and see the condition of everythlllg that I tell him what I consider should be done. I do not send him any suggestions fr?m Ballarat~ where I live. When I made In
quiries respecting the management of the Wyuna Farm some time ago, and I felt in my own mind that I had blown them out on many points, ~ was t~ld that ~he farm was not establIshed WIth the lll
tention of making it pay. If t.here are on other experimental farms similar leakages to those which, in my opinion, obtain at Wyuna., the sooner they are confined to experimental work only the
Department 0/ [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agriculture. 425
better. In my opinion, there is room for the pruning knife, so that a better financial result may be obtained at the end of the ensuing year.
Mr. H. J\1cKENZIE (Rodney).-In connexion with the criticism indulged in by the honorable member for ·Grenville, I am reminded of a noted author, who, after spending about three weeks in Australia, wrote a book saying how the Commonwealth should be managed and governed. I suppose that the honorable member for Grenville has been at Wyuna for about three hours, and he considers himself competent to criticise the management and control of that farm.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-The losses are shown by the balance-sheet.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-The balance-sheet shows the result as an experimental farm. If the manager were told that he had to make that farm pay, and run it as a matter of £ s. d., it would be conducted on absolutely different lines. The farm, however, was established for experimental work. It must be admitted that in experimental vmrk there is no chance of ma.king a profit. Half, and perhaps more, of the experiments may be failures. Allow me to tell the honorable member that there has been some excellent work done there.
Mr. CHA'l'HAM.-I would not care if the loss was £1,000 on experimental work.
Mr. H. lVlcKENZIE (Rodney) .-It is the most costly part of the farm. Although there may have been some failures in experiments entered upon, they have certainly shown at Wyuna that the seed of our own lucerne is absolutely better than the imported lucerne. That is of advantage to the producers if nothing else' is. If a ma.n said tha.t he did exactly the opposite eff what was done on the Wyuna Farm, he would be doing something that was unfair to himself, and an absurdity in many cases. Some of the best work in connexion with cereal-growing has beeu accomplished at \Vyuna. I do not sa.y that the wheat ·production is great, but they have shown the best class of wheats to grow in that particula.r district. It is not fair to the man who has been controlling that farm to hold him up to ridicule in such a way and to give the Committee to understand that the whole thing
Second Se8sion 1914.-[ 16J
•
is a monstrous absurdity, and that the sooner it is wiped out by the Government the better. Yet that is what one might understand from the speech just delivered by my honorable friend. If the Government had chosen to dispose of the cattle on the farm the lucerne raised there could ha ve been sold, and there would have been £2,000 or £3,000 to Wyuna's credit. I know that the lucerne on the farm could have been sold for' £2,000 for six months for grazing. The Minister may be able to say why that was not done, but, in the circumstances, I think it is a pity that the cows should have been kept this year, because it meant putting a pound into each cow, and taking lOs. out of her. Of course, that could not be helped with the present cost of fodder. The man controlling the farm is not to be blamed or ridiculed, because some excellent work has been done there, and I think the farmers appreciate it. As a matter of fact, when the GovernnH~nt proposed to close it two years ago, when the present manager was put there, there was a general uprising in the whole district. It was pointed out how manifestly unfair that would be, .as the mere fact that the farm had been established there was a great advantage to the agricultural community. If they are going in for the breeding of stud animals at Wyuna, th~y a,re moving in a direction in which it is most essential that the Government should launch out. At Dookic they never did raise a good stud animal. Altogether, not"ithstanding that the balance-sheet for the Wyuna Farm may show a deficit, they have certainly been doing very good work there, and the deficit could very easily be changed into a profit.
Progress was then reported.
STAMP DUTIES BILL.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said-This is the last Bill in connexion with the financial proposals, and I am anxious to get it away to another Chamber. When delivering the Budget I indicated how the Government proposed to meet the £1,000,000 worth of bon:ls. and this is one of the Bills in connexion therewith. One of the proposals for the provision of new revenue over the next four. financial years was the imposition of
426 Stamp Duties [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.
additional stamp duties. Hence this Bill. In short, the proposals are as follow/J:(I) To double the following stamp duties,
namely:- . New Revenue
for 1915-16.
£ Receipts, 2d. (on £2 and over)
instead of ld. ... ... 40,000 Local bills of exchange and pro-
missory notes, Is. for every £25 instead of 6d. ,.. 25,000
Ad valo1'em duties on set·tlements or deeds of gift, sliding scale £1 to £5 per cent. instead of lOs. to £2 lOs. per cent. 15,000
Ad valorem duties on conveyances and transfers on sale of land, lOs. for every £50 after the first £50' in lieu of 5s. '" ... 75,000
Annual licences to fire, marine, and fidelity guarantee insurance companies, £3 per cent. on gross premiums in lieu of £1 lOs. per cent. 18,000
and (2) To re-impose the duties on foreign
and Inter-State bills of exchange, whether from within or without Victoria, viz., 6d. for every £25 up to £100 and Is. for every £50 thereafter '" '" ... 20,000
These duties will, it is estimated, return in all £193,000 next financial year, and during the following three years, 1916-17, £205,000; 1917-18, £220,000; 1918-19, £230,000, consequent, it is hoped, upon improved seasons. These increases have been rendered nooessary, as have also the increases in conne.x:ion with the income tax, to make the' necessary provision for redeeming the bonds issued in conne.x:ion with the £1,000,000 deficit. With regard to the reimposition of the duty on foreign and Inter-State bills of exchange, I may say that the duty now proposed to be imposed was actually in force from 1879 to 1908. In 1908, Sir Thomas Bent introduced legislation, which was passed, to exempt such bills, in view of the fact that they had just been exempted in New South Wales. In March of this year, however, the Parliament of New South WaleSi re-imposed the duties. I have here a statement of stamp duties which will ba payable in Victoria when the present duties are doubled, as proposed, and the stamp duties at present payable in New South Wales. In the case of receipt.9 for £2 and over, the duty will be the same in the two States, that is, 2d.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-Will it be the sa.me for cheques?
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK .. -No; the duty on cheques will still remain at
ld. At first, I thought it would be necessary to double that, but there is no need to do so. Under the Bill the ad valorem duty on bills of excltange and promissory notes will be Is. for every £25. In New South Wales the rate is 6d. for every £25. With regard to deeds Of. settl.eme:r;tt or gift, as 1: have explained, 1D VIctorIa there will be a sliding scale varying from 1 per cent. to 5 per cent., whereas in New South Wales there is a sliding scal~ varying from ~ per cent~ to 5 per cent. However, the scales are different, as the following table shows:-
SETTLEMENT OF DEED OF GUT DUTY.
Not exceeding £1,000 From. £1,000 to £2,000
£2,000 to £3,000 £3,000 to £4,000 £4,000 to £5,000 £5,000 to £6,000 £6,000 to £7,000 £7,000 to £8,000 £8,000 to £9,000 £9,000 to £10,000
" £10,000 to £25,000 " £25,000 to £50,000 " £50,000 to £100,000 " £100,000
Per cent. £1 £I! £ll £I! £1! £2 £2 £2 £2 £2 £2t £3 £4 £5
Payable in
N.S.W
Per cent. lOs. £1 £11 £2 £2, £3 £3, £4 £4, £5 £5 £5 £5 £5
It will be seen that our tax will not press so heavily as the New South Wales tax. In connexion with ad valorem duties on conveyances and transfers O'n sale for land, under the Bin, where the value does not exceed £50 the duty will be 2d. In New South Wales it is 58. Under the Bill, where the value exceeds £50 and does not exceed £100, the duty will be ·10s. In New South Wales it is the same. Where the value exceeds £100, under the Bill the duty will be lOs. for every £50, dr fractional part thereof after the first £50, while in New South Wales the duty is lOs. for every £100 or fractional part thereof. With !egB;rd to annual licences for fire and manne Illsurance companies, the New South Wales tax on insurances will yield, approximately, £5 for every £3 that our proposed tax wil~ pro~uce. ~enera~ly speaking, our dutles wIll he lIghter III ope.ration than the New South Wales dutIes, though I candidly admit that we are putting on double stamp duties for the next
•
Bupply. [21 DECEMBER, 1914.J Departm,ent of Agriculture. 427
financial ~ear in order to assist in making up the deficit.
Mr. MENZIEs.-What additional revenue do you expectW
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-For 1916-7, £205,000; for 1917-18, £220,000; and for 1918-19, £230,000. That is on the assumption that we are going to have good seasons. As I explained in delivering the Budget speech, we not only want the amount of money necessary to redeem the bonds, but a little margin for any increased expenditure. Every financial year the Treasurer will have to explain what is being received from these duties, and honorable members will be able to see whether we have been optimistic or pessimistic. I think the straightforward course for the Government to adopt, when we are taking £1,000,000 to meet the deficit for this year, is to show those from whom we are borrowing the money that we are making ample provision to repay the amount borrowed. It was suggested that we might wait to see how thin,gs would turn out. I did not think that that would be a straiglitforward method. I am glad that honorable members have taken the same view as I hold.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and afterwards passed through it.s remaining stages.
CRIMINAL APPEAL BILL. This Bill was returned from the Legis
lative Council with a message intimating that they had agreed to the same with an amendment.
Mr. MACKINNON (Attorney-Ge:g,eral) .-Another place has made a verbal amendment in clause 20. I move--
Tha.t the a.mendment be agreed with.
The amendment was agreed with.
SUPPLY.
The House went into Committee for the further considerat,ion of the Estimates of ~xpenditure for the· year 1914-15.
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Consideration was resumed of the Esti
mates for the Department of Agriculture, £166,454.
Mr. WARDE.-There is one matter J desire to bring particularly under the notice of the Minister of Agriculture. We have been endeavouring for some considerable time past to impress upon the
[16J-2
people of Victoria, and Australia generally, the necessity for developing more of their own industries, so that instead of sending money out of the country they might spend more amongst their own people, and by purchasing their own commodities find employment for one another. Not long ago, I was very much struck on seeing in a press article that the production of tobacco has fallen off to an enormous extent, not only in Victoria, but in other parts of Australia. I believe that this year there has been some slight improvement on what has taken place during the last few years. I am not going back to the earliest times when large quantities of tobacco-leaf were grown in this country, and a market was found for it. In conversation with the tobaccogrowers up through the King Valley I have found that they all complain tha.t while they could produce a very good class of tobacco, and one that ought to be marketed very easily, the difficulty was that there is no competition amongst buyers to take their produce. We know the immense amount of money sent out of this country every year to purchase tobacco. I believe the business is mainly in the hands of a trust or combine. I believe that there are two or three firms, but the majority of the large firms which bought tobacco a few years ago from the growers, and created competition for the tobacco, which enabled the growers t.o get a reasonable price, have disappeared entirely. The growers assure me that there is now no competition for the leaf which they produce, and the result is that they have to accept any price that is offered by the buyer for the tobacco combine or trust, and that price quite recently has boon so. low that it has been impos. sible for them to grow the tobacco, pay the expenses, and get a decent living. If that is the case, the Department 'of Agriculture should make a strict investigation into the matter. The statement that is made is a most serious one. It is said that the competition has ceased entirely, and that the growers are at the mercy of the tobacco combine. If that is so, a great injustice has been done to hundreds of men who were growing tobacco successfully, an"d who managed to get a living out of it. I believe this year, for some reason-I suppose there has been some shortage--a representative of the combine has been going about jn New South Wales and Victoria--
428 Departnwnt of . [ASSEMBLY.] Agriculture.
Mr. ROGERs.-Don't you know that a new company has just started 7
Mr. WARDE.-The information that I am furnished with is that the price got down as low as 6d. per lb., which would not pay the grower. The retur!ls furnished by the Department of AgrIculture show that there has been a gradual decline in the amount of tobacco produced in Victoria. That is sufficient to show that the men who have been following the occupation have been ariven out of it through some reason or other . The explanation made to me 'IS the exp~anation I am putting before the CommIttee. Of course, I am not in a position to say whether it is correct or not, but I think it is the du~y of the Department, when they see a big fanin~ off in the I:U'0duction of a product hke tobacco Instead of an increase, when it is known that the climate is quite suitable for tobaccogrowing, to make inquiries as to the reason for the falling off. I am told that the tobacco combine, like all combines, when it first came in, offered a reasonable price for the product of the growers. The growers thought that they :were going to get on to a very good tIme, but when the Camerons, the Harts, and the Kronheimers formed their combine, it was not long before they reduced their price to the growers. Various reasons are assigned. Perhaps there is the excuse hhat the quality is not what it ought to be. The buyers (Jpc]arA that before the combine came into 'existence they had no such difficulty in selling their tobacco. The honorable member for Melbourne says that another firm has come in.
Mr. ROGERS.-Yes. Mr. WARDE.-The combine first
killed the growers of the tobacco. I do not think at any time the growers got a return commensurate with the efforts that they had to put forth, but st~lI they managed to live. Now the combme are offering from 8id. to 10d: per lb., a~d, I believe that if that prIce were mamhained, a~d the other conditions remained as they are to-day, it would pay the growers to go back to cultivating th? lea!, which would be for the benefit of V lctona and Australia generally. I t,hink that tobacco plays a very important part, inasmuch as it is a revenue-yielding commodity, and £1,250,000 worth of tobacco is imported to Australia every year.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-There is a duty of 3s. 9d. a lb.
Mr. WARDE.-There is an enormous duty. Tobacco growing ought to be a natural industry here, because experts have frequently reported that in port,ions of Australia the climate is as suitable for the production of good leaf as the clima~ in other plaoes where the best leaf IS
grown. With proper preparation, we ought to be able to market a tobacco very nearly equal to the best tobacco marketed in the world. The tobacco-growing industry appears to be dying away, and yet we find no public st.atement made in the Budget speech, or by the Minister of Agriculture, or by anybody else, as to the gradual decline of what ought to be an important portion of our producing industry. 'I think it is the duty of the Government to investigate the matter to see whether there are trusts and combines operating to t,he detriment of the growers. The great Liberal party refused to give ~he National Parliament power to deal With trusts and combines, which are injurious to the welfare of the State. They claimed that the State was capable of dealing with trusts and combines acting to the disadvantage of the community. Here, on the face of it, appears a clear case that the tobacco combine is starving the tobacco-growers of Victoria out of their industry. The Department of Agriculture, which is supposed to look after the welfare of the producers, does nothing in the matter. There was nothing said in the Budget speech about this important indust.ry. Nothing ,was said as ~o whether it was making progress or dying ouh. The Government seem to ignore what ought to be a very important industry in this State. Tobacco growing is one of those things in which a cultivator ought to take a delight if the returns are commensurate with the labour he performs. Seeing that we consume a large quantity of tobacco, and are likely to continue to do so, I think it is the duty of the Department to see that the growers of tobacco are not driven out of the industry by combines., I trust than, the Minister will be able to make a statement toO the House with regard to this important matter and that he will undertake to make inquiries as to whether. a tr,:,-st is strangling the tobacco-growmg mdustry. I trust that the honorable gentleman will take the nec~ssary steps to relieve the growers fro;m the sufferil':gs they are undergoing at the present time.
Mr. LECKIE.-As usual, there is a aood deal in what the honorable member b
Depart11'Lent 0/ [21 DECEMBER, 1914.] Agricultu're. 429
for Flemington has said. There is no doubt that, in years gone by, the elimination of all competition for the tebacco leaf grown killed the industry in Victoria. In the nerth-east ef Victeria, th~y grew a let of lelaf. In the Mitta valley, I was told during my election campaign, there were, fifteen years ago, acres ef land devoted to. tobacco. growing. The grewers got a big return frem it, but the fact that the cempetitien' fer the leaf was eliminated absolutely killed the grewers. The price they were offered at one time went down as low as 3d. per lb. After that, the tobacco manufacturers realized that they had killed the industry, and raised their price again. After some years, the tobacco-grewing industry was increasing slightly again. I do net know whether, during the last few months, or the last year or two., the manufacturers have been going en the old game, and reducing the price because ef there being no competition, but I say that the Minister should thoroughly investigate the matter, er we will have the industry in the same state as it was before. The grewers will be absolutely driven out of the industry, and the industry will be lest to. Victoria.
Mr. SOLLY.-I quite agree with some of the remarks of the honorable member for Flemington, but from what I know of the tobacco trad~and I am associated with it from the workman's point of view -I can inform the henorable member that the combine state that they have paid the very highest prices for Australiangrown leaf, and not only have they given every encouragement to. the industry so far as prices are concerned, but have -spent large sums ef meney in establishing a farm in New South Wales, in order to. grow the leaf. They obtained an expert specially to. deal with the pes-sibilities of growing the leaf. According to their statement, the tobacco-growing industry has not declined fo·r the want of their spending money in this direction. Their efforts have failed because the :public refused to smoke Australian-grown tobacco.. The men always complain about working the Australian leaf. It is short and scraggy, and after it is properly matured the public refuse to smoke it. The result, of course, is that a large quantity of Virg~nia leaf is imported, and, to a large extent, Australian-grown tobacco has gone out of consumption altogether. Most-in fact, I think all-of
the Haveleck tobacco manufactured at the big factory in Melbeurne is composed of imported Virginia leaf, unstripped. The statement of the henerable member fer ~"'lemingten that the growing ef tebacco in Victoria has practically died out is pretty well cerrect. In' 1903, there were 304,049 lbs. of Australian leaf used, and, in 1912, enly 165,156 lbs. were used. The impertations had gone up frem 2,052,000 lbs. in 1903 to. 5,137,000 lbs. in 1912. The trade, so far as the manufacture ef tebacco is cencerned, has practically deubled. Experts said that in the nerth-west ef Victeria the climate was suitable fer the preductien ef tobacco, and the seil was also.· suitable. I am assured that the prices have been better since the cembine has been in existence than they were before.
Mr. WARDE.-They were bette·r fer a time.
Mr. SOLLY.-vVhat I am stating is a fact. Fer years after the combine came into existence the prices were very much higher than they were befere. I am net speaking in the interest ef any cembine. The honerable member knews that.
Mr. WARDE.-According 'to Wilkinson, in his beak on Trusts, the falling-eff dates from the time when the combine came into eperation.
Mr. SOLLY.-Higher prices have been paid fer Australian leaf since the combine has been in existence than were paid when there were sixteen factories eperating twelve er fourteen years ago. The price is very much better fer the raw leaf than. it was at that time. As I have said, the cembine haSi net been able to grow a tobacco. that suits the taste ef the public, and it has been necessary to impert leaf from America. The cem bine breught out three er feur different experts from Kentucky and Virginia to examine our seils and study the climatic influences. The cembine have spent theusands and theusands ef peunds. I can assure the henerable. member ef that. He states that he weuld like an inquiry to. be held, and I think it weuld be a 'very goed idea. There is no. member ef the Heuse who favours lecal preductien mere than I do.. I had a conversatien with Mr. 'Cameron, the chairman of directers of the Tebacco Combine, as I happen to. be the chairman of the Federatien and of the lecal branch ef the To. bacco W erkers' Unien. We talked over the matter recently, and he showed me figures to prove
430 Department 0/ [AeSEMBLY.] Agriculture.
his statement that they had spent thousands of pounds in experimenting; and in New South Wales, which they were advised was the best place to start a farm, the r€sult ha.s b€en a total failure. The leaf grown there is inferior to the leaf imperted from America. The public will not smoke that tobacco. There is a brand called " Referee" that is prepared in Brisbane, and the public will not leok at it.
Mr. WARDE.-What did the Combine offer for it ~
Mr. SOLLY.-There is only a small proportion used by the Combine. There is only a little over 100,000 lbs. grown in the 8tate, and a large portion of it is used by Dudgeon and Arnell.
Mr. WARDE.-It is stated that they are offering frem 8~d. to 10d. for it.
Mr. SOLLY.-They have been paying that for a number of years. They have been doing everything they could in favour of local production, for it is not in the interests of a manufacturer to have his raw material grown in other parts of the world. They like to be able to buy it at .their doors, if they can get the article required. I have stated what is being done by the Combine with regard to tobacco production. Complaints have been made from time to time by the men, and frequently there is a good deal of trouble caused by the shortness o.f the leaf. It is unsuitable for the manufacture of tobacoo here.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-I do not know what injurious effect the Combine has on the production of tobacco in this State but I know t~at in many parts of Gippsl~nd, and partIcularly the poorer parts, it has been proved that good tobacco can be grown as well as good cigar leaf. On the poorer lands of Fernbank and Bruthen experiments have been made, and the cigar leaf brought as much as Is. 3d. per lb. I brought the subject under the notice of a previous Minister. I requested that greater encouragement should be given for local production, and particularly in the poorer parts of the country. We grow something like 300,000 lbs. of tobacco, and we smoke over 4,000,000 lbs. There is an immense field for the industry if it is given sufficient encouragement. I should in this connexion refer to the efforts made by Mr. Temple Smith, the departmental expert, who is an enthusiast on the subject. Any honorable member who desires to see the
industry established in his district should bring the matter under the notice of Mr_ Smith, who will find time to visit the district, and to bring the value of the industry under the notice of the residents. It is an industry well worth encouraging, and I should like the Department to take steps in that direction. '
Mr. PLAIN.-I wish to support the remarks of the honorable member for Flemington. A short time ago, in company with other members, I had an opportunity of visiting the King Valley, when we took evidence from men who grow tobacco. There is not the least doubt that they are in a very bad way. '1'he industry is seriously languishing, and the growers complain that they have not received proper treatment from the Trust. Th~y also cemplain that they de not get fair treatment in the way of supervislOn and expert knowledge, and they said it was years since the expert was there. If things go on as they are, the industry will soon cease to exist. The honorable member for Carlton says that we cannot grow as good leaf 'here as they grow in America, but I do not think that statement is correct. We have a climate here equal to any climate in the world, and we have all classes 'of soil. In fact, we have the conditions fo'r growing anything on the land, and all that we require is expert knowledge. I think the Minister should take the advice of the honorable member for Flemington, and have an inquiry immediately in the interests of the growers. It is true that the white man is going out. They let the Chinese take the risks, and that is the only way they can manage. Their reason for employing Chinese is that they are the only expert..<; in tobacco-growing they can get to work th~ material. The growers complain seriously of the lack of attention on the part of the Department. I hope the Minister will. do his best in the interests of these men. They have any amount, of land capable of growing the .tobacco, and they have a suitable climate, but they want a little assistance and sympathetic treatment. I am sure that tobacco. can be grown here equal to anything grown in America..
Mr. MENZIES. - Have they made any representations to the Department lOr assistance ~
Mr. PLAIN.-We did not ask them that. Many of them said they would give it another trial, but that unless the,
Department 0/ [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agriculture. 431
Government gave them some guarantee that they would get something in return for their labour they would cease growing the leaf. They were asked what they would suggest, and whether they thought it would be desirable for the Government to take u,p the industry. They said they would prefer that, because then they would be sure of a reasonable price. If they were assured of a reasonable price they would increase the acreage. ,They want a little cheering, and a little advice.
Mr. HUTCHINSON (Minister of Agriculture) .-The honorable member for Flemington has raised a rather interesting discussion on the tobacco question. I am satisfied that there is some mistake in the complaint made by the honorable member for Geelong, because I know that Ivir. Temple Smith, the tobacco expert, is one of the most enthusiastic experts in the Department-a man not only willing but anxious to go anywhere where he can help the grower by advice or practical assistance.
Mr. SOLLY.-He has done very good ~~. .
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes. Men who have followed the industry know the work that he is doing. I know that not long ago he visited the King Valley and the valley of the Buffalo R~ver. Victorian tobacco, it is true, was at a very low ebb in regard to price a few years ago. As -the honorable member for Benambra said, the price had got as low as 3d. Now there is a decided advance in the price, and the Victorian tobacco is commanding a. higher price than that of any of the other States-. It ranges from 8d. to lOd. Mr. Temple Smith stlcceeded in selling seme of our tobacco to an Adelaide firm at· Is. 9d., and in selling. some here at Is. 3d. Therefore, as far as th~ expert is -concerned, it is evident that he is not only helping in the matter of cultivation, but actively assisting in the matter of the price.
Mr. WARDE.-And I suppose the buyers in Adelaide were not philan-thropists ~
Mr. HUTCHINSON .-N 0; they reo cognised the value of the article. AI.though there has been a falling-off, it has been mainly in connexion with the lowergrade plug leaf, most of which is grown in the other States. The prioo got so low that it would not pay to cultivate it. With the substantial rise in price there
is an inducement to produce a higher quality. Our advice is that the acreage is increasing.
Mr. WARDE.-This year ~ Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes. If hon
orable members will ~ndicate any district where the expert could assist, I can make the promise that he will readily go and assist growers or prospective growers.
Mr. CHATHAM.-I see the Minister of Public Instruction in the chamber, and I would suggest to him and the Minister of Agriculture that they should endeavour to have another subject added to the curriculum of the State schools. We have a day set aside for bird observation, and we have an arbor day, and I think it would be a good idea to set aside a day or two in the year to instruct the boys, at any rate. in the matter of noxiouR weeds. There is a great deal of our territory overrun by St. J obn's wort, stinkwort, Californian thistle, cotton-weed, and various other weeds that I could enumerate, If the children were instructed for one or two days in the year in the method of eradicating these weeds it might save thousands of pounds in our agricultural districts. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the acreage under agriculture was increasing. If the children were instructed in the method of dealing with St. John's wort, it would save thousands of acres of our land. The saffron thistle has practically got possession of a large amount of the land.
Mr. ROGERS. - The question of poultry, which is a very important one, has been dealt with to-night. I understand that during the last two or three days a deputation of poultry men waited on the Minister.
1\11'. HUTCHINsoN.-Yes. lVIr. ROGERS.-And that they dealt
with the question of feed. It has. been said that it is impossible to procure wheat, pollard, and bran. I understand tba.t certain recommendations have been made to the Minister, including the prohibition of the export of pollard and bran. What does the Minister intend to do with that recommenda.tion 1 I believe the Minister is going to do something, for he has promised to do something. If poultry-farmers cannot get wheat, there is plenty of other feed, such as maize and barley. There is a large number of poultry men in Victoria, and a great many have gone in for po'nltry alone, on the advice of
432 Department 0/ [ASSEMBLY.] A.griculture.
experts in the Department. These experts travel around the country, and I believe that there are two of them on the Board that has been appointed. I am sorry for that. Through one of these gentlemen hundreds of people have lost all they had. He told them that it was possible to make a good living out of poultry alone. People eve'll came here from America, and one man put £2,000 into the business. There is not a single man in Victoria making a living out of poultry alone. I took the platform on one occasion against Mr. Hawkins, who said that he knew of only two cases in Victoria where a living was being made out of poultry alone. Of course, I do not include those who keep prize poultry and get high prices for the stock and the eggs, but I am referring to people who carryon the business in the ordinary way, and who are now asked to pay 6s. 6d. and 7s. a bushel :for wheat. The experts have travelled about the country, and they know the condition of things. They have landed nearly all these poultry men in ruin. The Government are going to buy wheat at 7s. and ask these people to pay that price. They should be treated in the same manner as the farmers. The Government have some wheat on hand that they paid 4s. 9d. for, and they should set apart 5,000 bags for these people at that price. Unless something is done for these people, there will not be any poultry in Victoria in a few months' time. The people h_ave been sending all their poultry into the market because they are unable· to buy wheat. Other feed could be given to Jll>ultry to keep them alive. I remember when potatoes and oats were fed to fowls. Yet the experts of the Department, knowing the high price of pollard, bran, and wheat, are not trying to educate- 'these people to use cheaper feed to keep tue birds alive. There is a class of poultry selling fairly well, but I have seen instances where it was impossible to give them away. I want the Minister to go further than he proposes in this matter. There are hundreds of farmers who keep a few hundred fowls and a few cows and pigs. The proposal of the Department is to assist men who go in. for poultry alone. Of course I sympathize with that. It is no use for the Government to tell these people that they can buy wheat for cash from the Government. Anyone can buy wheat outRide for cash at the market price. The Government should put aside, as I said
Mr. Rogers.
before 5,000 bags for which they paid 4s. 9d. for the use of these people, and very soon the Government will have an opportunity of buying a different class of wheat at a much lower price-. There a.re men in the Department that no one takes any notice of. The Minister should put a cou pIe of good men on the Board. Two of the best men we have are- the poultry expert for the Leader and the expert for the TVeeldy Times. It would be a ,good thing, too, to have one of the members of the Kennel Club. It appears that only those who depend on poultry alone are to be assisted. The Government do not propose to go far enough. In connexion with the Government egg-laying competition, except four or five men, all the competitors are small people holding about 100 fowls each. These are the people who deserve assistance. I have repeatedly pointed out that people have been deceived by Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Hart.
l\1:r. HUTCHINSON (Minister of Agriculture).-I think the honorable member for Melbourne lias spoken without a fnll knowledge of the position, and I can understand that, because there has not been time to give. any publicity to what ha.s been done. On Friday, the members of the Poultry Associ'ation waited on me, and we discussed the position very fully. 'rhey said they could 'llot get wheat at any price, and 'I said the duty of the Government was to see that they did get it. I gave them an undertaking that the Government would make available 5,000 bags, if 'necessary, from the stock of wheat we have at Williamstown to tide them over the emergency. They said they did not want any Government assistance in the ordinary way, and that there were a considerable number of them who could pay cash if wheat was made available. I said it would be done. The second point they brought up was thedesirability of assisting those who were not able to pay for wheat, and I said that the Government would readily make provision for them, and put them very much 011 the same footing as those receiving assistance from the Mal1ee Relie~ Board.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-And take a lien on the eg,gs.
Mr. HUTCH1NSON.-A lie'll on a wheat crop is a very much better security than a lien on a hen's crop. That is one of the difficulties we have to face, and which we discussed with the deputation.
•
Depart'tnent of [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agriculture. 433
The fact remains that those who have the least security to offer are those who need assistance most. I said a Board would be appointed immediately. When I indicated to the deputation that the members of the Board would probably be those who had been conducting the wheat inquiries, -they said that the poultry business was a peculiar one and asked that our poultry experts sho~ld be appointed, as they knew the needs of the poultry farmers, and they could trust them to do the busi-ness.
Mr. ROGERS.-Did they not ask for anyone else to be appointed ~
Mr. HUTCIIINSON.-No. I said that, if they wished, I would be glad to appoint a representative of their association as a member of the Board. The two .associations in connexion with the poultry industry are meeting to-night to discuss the proposition and decide. The secr~tary of the association called on me t~llS morning and said, "Already your actIOn and the action of the Govefnment has made a marked difference in our position.· We have been offered five trucks of bran which are available at a slight ,reduotion in the price·." I intimated this morning that we had made arrangements through the Department for 1,200 bags of wheat which we had arranged to be made available at 6s. 9d., subject to being sampled by our agricultural superintendent, Mr. Richardson. The sample shows fine wheat, if anything, above f.a.q., and this is to be made available to-morrow to all poultry 'people who desire it. We put a limit of ten bags, so that no big holder can scoop up more j and this is available at 6s. 9d. a bushel.
:1\1r. ROGERs.-What doe·s the Government pay 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-The Government are not paying anything. It was offered to the Government at 6s. 9d., and we have arranged to distribute it directly to the poultry men at the price offered. The Government have been making a similar arrangement"for another 2,000 bags of wheat which is really the Williamstown wheat. Weare arranging for an exchange, so that it will be available at Kensington, and we shall have one parcel available on the north side of the Yarra and another on the south side. This will be available for all poultry breeders to-morrow, not mOTe than ten bags being allowed to each purchaser. Then, to meet the cases of those whoa-re unable to make
prOVIsIon of their own, we have a Board sitting on Thursday, and that Board will deal with all applications that come in. The Government will provide a truck of wheat for these people, and will take what security they can offer, so that the advance may be repaid over a term.
Mr. ROGERs.-Are they not going to get any of the 4s. 9d. wheat 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-At this stage, no.
Mr. ROGERs.-This is just the time that they want it.
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-There is another reason. This particular stack of wheat is wheat which is gradually being exchanged, as the new season's va:dety wheat is coming in. This wheat is being exchanged for wheat of seed variety iii t.he country districts. Weare holding it at present, and if we can arrange otherwise we will nO't interfere with the existing stack. In conclusion, I may say that the Board recognises that relief, to be of the most helpful character, must be given immediately. For those poultry breeders whO' are unable to come into Mebourne there are to be a number of sittings . of the Board in the suburbs and in country places e,xtending over the next two weeks.
Mr. 11ITCHELL.-In connexion with the item of £500 "Towards expenses of eradicating St. John's wort," I w.ould like to' ask the Minister if this money is to be spent on unoccupied Crown lands 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-No. Mr. MITCHELL.-I would like to
"point out the great danger that the northern area is in from this pest. It has, I understand, practically taken a firm hold of three shires in the northern districts, and the shire councils find themselves unable to cope with the pest. Instead of the Government merely giving £1 for £1, I would like to see them go further and grasp this question boldlyin fact, eradicate the pest altogether. I consider it would be sound business to do so. It would have been sound business a year or twO' ago to have taken the matter in hand, but even at this stage I think it WO'uid be good business for the Government to take up tlie matter and eradicate the pest. At the present time this pest exists largely on unoccupied Crown lands on our higher reaches, and when we remember that the clean lands down in the irrigation districts are supplied by water which comes from those
434 Department 0/ [ASSEMBLY.] Agriculture.
hills where the unoccupied Crown lands have been .allowed to become a breeding ground for noxious weeds, we must all realize the danger that exists. The seeds are shed from these weeds; they are carried down· by the streams, and afterwards by the irrigation channels. At the present time in the eastern districts of my electorate we have no St. John's wort. But it is only a matter of time, if the pest is allowed its way on the higher reaches, before the seed is carried down, and then we shall have the same trouble. Most of these unoccupied lands are either facing our main streams or are on the higher reaches, and through this means the pest is becoming .31 me?-ace to all the clean districts in the north. I would impress upon the Government the advisability of eradicating the pest now. Although it may be expensive to do so, it will be really better. to take the matter in hand now than it will be in years to come, when there is no dou~t it will have to be done. The sooner It is take'll in hand the better.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-In connexion with the item, "Export development," I desire again to bring under the notice of the Government a matter to which I alluded the other night-that is the congested state of our cool .~tore~. I regret to say that this congestIon. IS
still going on, so that we h~v~ somethmg like three-quarters of a mIllIon of ca~casses in our cool stores at present. ThIS really means that exporters will shortly have to discontinue buying. There have been some few ships going away with car-· casses. but the space that has been allotted to each of the exporters has been so infinitesimal that it maae only a very slight difference. There were onl v
some 10,000 or 12,000 carcasses divided amongst the whole of our exporters.
Mr. HUTCHINSON .-lVluch more than that has gone away.
Mr. McKENZIE (Rodney).-Probably, but I was referring to one ship.
Mr. HU'l'CHINSoN.-The last ship loaded took from 14,000 to 15,000 carcasses.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (RodneyY·-That is the largest quantity. I hav~ heard o.f. There are two large shIps comIng here ]ll
January. I think they are under the control of the Naval Department. I suppose they will be transports. No doubt the Minister will know whether the Naval Department or the Customs Department
should be applied to for space. I trust. the Minister will endeavour to get at least one of those ships to relieve the great congestion that exists, because I understand they are capable of taking a great number of carcasses, as they are properly fitted for that purpose. I hope he will be able to obtain one of these ships for Victorian produce alone, because, as I pointed out before, a certain line of ships has been keeping the other States practically clear. There has been no congestion in Queensland at all. There has been some little congestion in New South Wales, but nothing like the congestion we have here. This is a matter of the greatest importance to the producers. Unless some relief is obtained,. not only will the exporters suffer, but the whole of the primary producers throughout the State. They will suffer particularly this year, as the cost of feeding the animals is so very great. If they were to· become stores again the loss would be very considerable indeed. I know the names of these ships can be ascertained.
Mr. HUTCHINsoN.-We have their names.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-I trust that the honorable gentleman will be able to secure at least one of the ships. for Victoria.
Mr . SOLLY .-1 think that the question of the development of the export trade should be given greater attention by honorable members. It is a very important thing to find a market for our' primary producers, and something should be done to shake life into the movement. 'Ve' have spent a very small proportion of our revenue in connexion with this great work. I see that there is a reduction of £6,000 in the item for the development of the export trade. Last year the amount "expended was £28,000. That was about £200 above the estimate. This year the amount set down is £22,024. Considering the extraordinary position we are in with regard to foreign markets, I consider that more energy should be expended and more money also in seeing what can be done to develop our markets abroad. Germany was a fairly good customer of Australia. Something like £13,000,000 of trade was done, between Germany and Australia in 1913. That includes both imports and exports. The whole of that trade has been practically wiped out by the war. A fair proportion of that £13,000,000 of. trade was done
Department of [21 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Agricult'ure. 435
by this industrial and producing State -of the Commonwealth. As we have lost the German market, and one or two other markets, grea.ter efforts should be put forward by the Agent-General for the purpose of developing new markets either in Great Britain, France, or some .other friendly country. Why cannot that . be done ~ It is not going to be done by the Government cutting down the vote by £6,000. In my mind, it could only be done by increasing the expenditure, and asking the Agent-General to put a little mo're life into his work. I believe that Mr. McBride has done very excellent work since he has been home.
Mr. McLACHLAN .-He is a good man. Mr. SOLLY.-I do not know exactly
what his work is. I know that the time of previous Agents-General was taken up principally in entertaining visitors· from Australia, and showing them the liveliest spots and places of amusement clown Picadilly way. To my mind, the Agent-General of Victoria has more important work to do than entertaining Australians when they go home. There are great opportunities for opening up markets in Great Britain. There are millions' of people to feed there, and the production frOom the land is infinitesimal. They have to obtain vast quantities of primary produce from other countries. The best way to strengthen friendly re~ations with the Motherland would be for us to secure markets in the Old Country. I trust the Government will not stick to the vOote of £22,000 for the development of the export trade, but will increase it, even if they have to borrow a little money to do it. I do not believe in borrowing money except for a gOood cause. I believe that this is a very excellent cause. According to the figures given in the Vict01'ian Y-ear-Book our export trade is really decreasing. In 1906 the merchandise' exported from Victoria was valued at £15,889,953. In 1909, the last year given, the value of merchandise exported from Victoria is £19,407,877. That would appear to be an increase, but we have to consider the increase in population. In 1906 the exports F~r head amounted to £16 4s. Id., and in 1~~8 to £16 3s. 8d. .
Mr. H. McKENZI;E (Rodney).-A bad wool season mignt account for that.
Mr. SOLLY.-The honorable member must admit that We could h3,ve a wider field for the export of butter, cheese,
ham, bacon, and fruit. We have nOli started on this trade, properly speaking. More life needs to be put into the movement. The producers are the mainstay and backbone of a country. A country can only be well developed by every particle of land that is capable of producing being cultivated, and by the producers having a ready market for their produce. We have not touched the fringe of the possibilities of our export trade. I belie.ve, if proper representations were made, the commercial men of Great Britain, recognising their duty to their brothers and sisters in this country, would prefer to deal straight with Australians rather than with people in Denmark, or any other country. It is our duty to develop our ... export trade in every possible way. I feel that the cutting down of the vote for the development of the export trade will do a considerable amount of harm. We are closing our ports . against the trade of Germany and other enemies. We want to increase our trade with nations that are friendly to us. That is not to be done by the reduction of expenditure. It appears that in cutting off £6,000 we are doing a great injustice. I trust the Minister will have something to sayan this. A falling off in our export trade means much to those on the backblocks in Victoria particularly. The development of our export trade is the most important question for Parliament to discuss: and we should use every endeavour to develop it on proper lines.
Mr. McLACHLAN.-I ~ish to know if the Department has any scheme under consideration to make herd-testing associations general throughout Victoria. Is the Department prepared to make an investigation of our pastures to ascertain how far our native grasses have suffered from overstocking ~
Mr. HUTCHINSON (Minister of Agriculture) .-In reply to the first question asked by the honorable member for Gippsland North, I may say that the Government have already· subsidized the pioneering herd-testing association of Victoriathe Colac association-to the extent of £50. They have agreed to provide the association with the necessary stationery to carry out their work, and also to carry free by rail the necessary vessels containing the milk coming down for testing. Th& same policy will, in the main, be followed with regard to associations that might
436 Department of [ASSEMBLY.] Agriculture.
spring up. The Government are quite willing to assist local effort, so as to permit of the establishment of herd-testing associations throughout Victoria. With regard to pastures, I shall be very glad to bring that matter under the notice of the Director and the responsible officers. I will confer with them, and shall be glad at a later stage to have a word with the honorable member. I share the regret of the honorable member for Carlton that the amount on the Estimates for the ezport trade has to be soo substantially red uced, and the regret is intensified because it is caused by the recent drought conditions. Our export fruit trade will be practically non-existent this season, and the whole of the rest of the exports will be considerably diminish~d. But the contributing factor to the diminution in the amount will be a permanent one, and that is that we have gone into our own cool stores. The work the stores have done this season will more than compensate for" the total outlay. To-day there are in cool storage a very large proportion of the carcasses that are unable to find shipment. If the stores had not been in existence loss would have resulted to the proaucers considerably greater than the total cos,t of the stores.
Mr. HOGAN.-Are the stores available for use by anyone 1
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-Yes. There has been an equitable allotment of space to all the people who have been sending frozen produce in . We first of all held the butter, and now that the pressure of that has been lifted, the stores are filled with frozen mutton and lamb. That brings me to the complaint of the honorable member for Rodney. I sympathize very much with the position he has put. The Government have been anxiously inquiring" with the view to assisting the meat exporters to get produce away. Primarily, of course, that is the function of the exporters, and, generally speaking, in normal seasons they would resent any attempt at assistance on the part of the Government. The fact that the Commonwealth had to commandeer the ships for transports put the ordinary ships that were available, with insulated space to carry frozen produce, completely out of the trade. A complaint has beeu voiced by the honorable member, and voiced with a greater degree of intensity by Mr. Angliss in another place, that Queensland and New South Wales have had preferential
treatment in regard to this matter. As to Queensland, I would point out that the Federal-Houldershire line have their own direct interests in cattle stations in Queensland, and make regular runs. They were BU bsidized some yea.rs ago by the Queensland Government to go that far and take butter and che~se from Queensland. They have escaped the commandeering of the Commonwealth for troopship purposes, and in that way Queensland has been able to get a better percentage in the matter of shipments. As to the ships that the Commonwealth can control, I have been in touch right from the beginning with the Commonwealth Government, and I have had frequent interviews with Mr. Tudor, Minister of Customs, who has been exerting himself from the beginning to get the transports that were taking troops to convey frozen cargo, in cases where they had insulated space, and then to make available the interned German boats for the frozen produce. I have received the following letter from him:-
Dea.r Sir, Melbourne, 21st December, 1914.
With reference to your verbal inquiries relative to the allotment of refrigerated space on the vessels which are being used by the Commonwealth Government for the carriage of produce, I beg to inform you that every possible precaution has been taken by the shipping agents for the respective vessels, in conjunc-
,tion with the Commonwealth Shipping Agent, to arrange for an equitable distribution of the refrigerated space available between the numerous applicants, on the basis of the average volume of their trade and quantities of meat they had in hand for shipment.
The percentages of available spac~ allotted to the different ports were:-
Brisbane ... ... lS.1 per cent. Sydney and Newcastle... 27.3 per cent. Melbourne .,. 35.6 per cent. Adelaide .,. 19.0 per cent.
The above-mentioned percentage for Sydney and Newcastle includes the steamer "C 7" (late Oberhausen), which vessel will be berthed at Sydney for late December or early January loading.
Yours faithfully, FRANK G. TuDOR.
The Honorable W. Hutchinson, M.P., Minister for Agriculture, Melbourne.
I wouH ask honorable members to note that Melbourne has 35.6 per cent. We pressed the greater need of Melbourne, because there are nearly 750,000 carcasses t,o be exported.
Ml". H. McKE'NZIE (Rodney).-When does that take place 1
I
Department of Agrwultur.e. [21 DECEMBER, 1914.J Adiournment. 437
Mr. HDTCHINSON.-The letter is branches may lead to some good. Unfordated to-day. That shows that in regard tunately, the Estimates for the Departto these vessels Melbourne has not been ment come up for consideration in the last placed at a disadvantage. Up to date no days of the session, so that discussion of space has been allotted· to the exporters agriculture in its broader aspects is not who are crying out for Government inter- indulged in. Owing to the circumstances ference. The Government have not a that have arisen,the necessity of finding single carcass to put aboard. When we additional markets for our produce deapproach the shipping people they want mands, as the honorable member for to know where our cargo. is. If we men- Carlton stated, special attention from this tion particular shippers, they say, House and the Government in the imme-" We are doing the best we diate future. Next year, I think, it can." This week two boats are would be a good thing if we spent some 01 leaving-the Whakarua and the },{ orea. the time which we devote to the AddressOn the 2nd J a'nuary, there will he two in-~~I?ly to the· question of providing vessels-the Demosthenes and the },{aloja. faCIlItIes for t~e profitable disposal of the On the 26th of that month there will be produce of thIS State. Instead of waitthe Llfooltan and the Glen McTavish. ing until the end of the year, we could
Mr. H. ~1:CKENZIE (Rodney).-What is have a good, sound discussion on the sub-the capacity of those boats 1 ject at the beginning of the session, and
Mr. HUTCHINSON.-I cannot say, honorable members could give the Gobut the list which I have gives the vessels vernment the benefit of their opinions. sailing from Melbourne within the next No matter on which side of the House three months. It contains the names of honorable members sit, we all recognisE fourteen or fifteen steamers with refri- that the future prosperity of the State gerating capacity. For instance, there is . rests on its primary production, and a the Ballarat, which is sailing on the 27th wee~ or a m?nth ~pent in discussing thE of February, which can carry from 35,000 sU?Ject, prOVIded It results in something to 40,000 carcasses. Next week there is bemg done in. ~he way of capturing the Anchises, which can take 13,000 car- mar~ets and assIstmg the producer, would cases. The companies owning these boats be tIme well spent. hesitate to enter into contracts for cold- The vote was agreed to. storage space, because they do not know Progress was then reported. whether the vessels may not be commandeered. It was urged in another place that the Government should intervene with a view of expediting the return of the transports which took our troops to Egypt. That has been anticipated. As earl y as six weeks ago tha.t was urged. Senator Pearce cabled to the Rome authorities on the matter, but they replied that the vessels must go on to England to unload their cargo, and the pro bability was that they would be detained for Imperial purposes. The Government are pushing the matter as far as we can, but beyond what I have indicated we cannot hope to do much. There is certainly a glut in the trade and a shortage of shipping space, which must continue for a little while. All we can say is that we will do our hest to help expo.rters to find shipping space.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I had not been long in Parliament bef.ore I realized that, except in a few cases, the discussion on the Estimates is not of much value. All the same, I do thi'nk that a aiscussion on the subject of agriculture in its widest
RESOLUTIONS FROM SUPPLY.
The resolutions agreed to in Committee of Supply with reference to the Departments of Water Supply and Agriculture were reported tOo the House and adQopted.
ADJOURNMENT.
TRAINING SHIP "JOHN MURRAY." Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Pre
mier).-I move-That the House, at its rising, adjourn until
half-past ten o'clock to-morrow. The motion was agreed to. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Pre
mier).-I move-That the House do now adjourn. Mr: SOLLY.-In dealing with the
questIOn of the training ship John Murray last week, I urged the Chief Secretary to have an inquiry into th€ charges I made cond ucted at thE earliest opportunity. My advice waf not ~aken. I regret to say that Mr. Robbms, one of the principal witnesses:
438 Seed Advances [COUNCIL.] Bill.
has an engagement to go to New Zealand, and will be a.way before the inquiry takes place. Owing to this delay there cannot be a proper inquiry, and the whole of the char.ges will be thwarted through the inaction of the Government. I place the whole responsibility on the Government for not taking up the cudgels when thrown down honestly.
The motion was ~greed to. The House adjourned at nineteen
minutes to eleven o'clock, until eleven o'clock next day.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.
Tuesday, December 2!2, 1914.
The PRESIDENT took the chair at four lTlinutes to four o'clock p.m., and read the prayer.
SEED ADV ANOES BILL.
The House went into Oommittee for the further consideration o~ this Bill.
Olause 6 was agreed to. Olause 7-(1) Any person who (whether before or
nfter the commencement of this Act) has (,lItered into an agreement with the owner or occupier of a farm to cultivate the same or any part thereof on shares, may (whether the said owner or occupier consents or not) ohtain an advance under this Act, and as security for the repayment thereof give the Board a preferable lien on the whole of the crop of the next ensuing harvest of the said farm or part thereof.
(2) Such lien shall be a first charge upon tho produce of the crop on which it is given, wJlCther sown at the time of giving the lien or not.
(3) Every advance under this section shall he repayable on the first day of February, One thousand nine hundred and sixteen.
(4) Subject to this section, the provisions of this Act as to cultivators shall, with such alterations, modifications, and substitutions as are necessary, extend and apply to persons to whom advances are made under this section.
The Hon. T. BEGGS said that under this clause the rights of the owner of the land were absolutely disregarded. The owner could not say to the share tenant, " You must not go to the Government and obtain a loan." Under the clause, taken in conjunction with clauc;e
10, the o"\\'ller could do nothing. He moved-
That the words "whether the said owner or occupier consents or not" be struck out, with a. view to inserting the words "with the consent of the owner."
The Han. A. HICKs.-Supposing the owner will not consent?
The Hon. T. BEGGS said then no crop would be put in. The clause would override the rights of any landlord.
The Hon. J. K. MERRITl'.-If no crop is put in, there will be nothing for anybody . . The HOll. T. BEGGS said the prin
CIple. of the cIau~e was entirely wrong, and It was not rIght for the House, in a temporary measure of this kind to override the law of the land and to' put the tenant in a better position than the owner. Th~ HOll .. J. D. BROWN (Minister
o~ MInes) ~aId he was afraid Mr. Beggs dId not qUIte realize what the result of carrying the amendment would be. It would prevent share farmers gettinO' advances. The owner of the land couldo if he pleased, take the place of the Board Rnd buy the seed wheat. That was what would be done in a great many cases but some owners might not do that. '
An HONORABLE MEMBER. - That is what will probably be done.
The Hon. J. D. BROWN said that then the clause would do no harm. If the land-owners desired to furnish the seed, or the money to buy the seed, the Government would be very pleased. The Government were greatly gratified at the handsome manner in which mortgagees financial institutions, and other peopl~ had been doing that. Only for that the Government would probably have had to ask for power to advance double the amount of money they were going to advance. He could see no objection to the clause if the desire of honorable members was to assist the share farmer. The amendment would prevent a share farmer getting any seed wheat at all. . The Hon. R. B. REES said he would
l~ke to ask the Minister of l\.fines a questIOn. Under the clause, even if the owner of the land did not consent. to the share farmer getting an advance, he could get an advance, and if he did, apparently he would have to give a lien over the crop for three years.
Seed Advances [22 DECEMBER, 1914.J Bill. 439>
The Hon. F. lliGELTHORN. - In this case it is only one year.
The Hon. R. B. REES said that if grubs destroyed the crop, or it was destroyed by a storm, the farmer would be unable to pay the Government anything that year.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHoRN.-He would be ruined.
The Hon. R. B. REES said the farmer would then leave the farm. Would there be any liability in connexion with the crop grown on the land in the following year?
The Ron. J. D. BROWN. - I do not think so.
The Hon. A. ROBINSON said the statement of the Minister of Mines cleared away a number of difficulties, but he (Mr. Robinson) still felt impressed by the point of view put forward by Mr. Beggs. Take the case of a landlord who let land on the share-farming system. There were certain covenants to be fulfilled by the tenant. At present breach of the covenants would allow the landlord to regain possession of the land and eject the tenant. Under the clause the Government might lend the tenant a sum of money, taking security on the whole of the next crop--not on the crops fur a period of years, as Mr. Rees had suggested. During that period, however, the rights of the landlord were, by clause 10, entirely abrogated. Whatever the faults of the share system might be, the landlord had certain rights by law, and he eMr. Robinson) did not see why it was necessary practically to confiscate tho:30 rights. There were three positions under which seed wheat could be advanced. In the first place, financial institutions, 01' the landlords, would advance the seed. In the second place, the State might do it. There was a third position, which he did not think had yet been realized by honorable members, and that was that the owner of the land being willing that a crop should be put in, might agree that the State should lend the tenant the money to buy the seed, or that the State should itself advance the seed to the tenant. The amendment which Mr. Beggs proposed was that the consent of the landlord must be obtained in such cases. How Ip.any cases were there likely to be where the landlord would not find the seed wheat, and would
not permit the Government to lend the' tenant the money to buy the seed wheat~· How many cases were there in which landlords would take advantage of this severe drought and force their share tenants into ruin ~ The object of the clause,he took it, was to prevent landlords from acting in a harsh and unconscionable manner, in view of the severe circumstances which now faced the producers of this State. When honorable member.s were legislating for exceptional circumstances, they should be satisfied that they were not doing injury to rights which had grown up, and which had been sanctioned by law, by custom, and by universal consen t. If a man let land to a tenant 011
certain fixed terms set out in a document or a scrap of paper, it was not right fo;' the Government, or any third party, to tear up that scrap of paper. It seemed to him that the clause would enable a tenant in this exceptional case to snap his fingers at the landlord and say, "So long as I put the seed wheat in I can ignore all the other covenants' in the lease, because you cannot eject me. You can do what you jolly well like, but the Act says you cannot eject me." It seemed to him that the clause gave dominion over one man's property to another man. He (Mr. Robinson) admitted that the number of cases in which this might occur was likely to be very: small, but surely the number of cases In which the landlord would neither advance the wheat himself, nor allow the Government to advance the wheat, must be infinitesimal. Take the ordinary share farmer in the district which the Minister of Public Works knew so well. Honorable members might be certain that the landlord would either carry the share farmer on by buying seed for him, or would allow the Government to advance the share farmer the money with which to buy seed wheat. But the landlord would not want the Government to advance the money if his rights as owner were to be entirely abrogated for a period of about twelve months, while he knew that a COll
sidera~le amount of damage might bo done In that time to his inheritance in the shape of the land. He knew that the Government had framed the Bill with the earnest desire to benefit as large a number of peo~le as t?ey could, but he must Eay the pOInts raIsed by Mr. Beggs had
440 Seed Advances [COUNCIL.] Bill.
not had the full consideration to which they were entitled. How were the Government going to protect the landlord against the wilful act of his tenant 1 They were protecting the tenant against oppression by the landlord, which, in the peculiar circumstances, seemed very unlikely to' occur, because it was in the landlord's interest to have the next crop put in. It was so much in the landlord's interest to help the tenant that he was bound to help the tenant, and yet the Government put in the Bill a clause which seemed to put a premium on the breaking of contracts and the ignoring of legal and undoubted rights.
The lIon. W. S. MANIFOLD said that while he admitted that there was an awkward position with regard to tho rights of a landlord as against a share tenant who got an advance from the Government, he did not think there was any way out of the difficulty. He thought for the one year during which the wheat was growing from seed which had been procured from the Government, the landlord must be quite content to let his rights be abrogated. When clause 8 was reached, he (Mr. Manifold) proposed to move an amendment to limit the setting aside of the owner's rights to the one year in which the crop, which was the produce of the Government's seed, was being grown. It would be impossible for the Government to furnish seed or fodder for the purpose of putting in a crop unless they took security. That must follow. He could not imagine a case in which the landlord would be unable to furnish the seed himself, and unwilling to allow the Government to furnish it.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN. - Thel'c would be no crop for him to share.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said iu such a case the landlord would get no income from his land. He thought the clause ought to be passed as it stood.
The Hon. FRANK OLARKE said Mr. Robinson had stated that the number of cases in which the landlord would raise an objection to a share tenant getting an advance from the Government would be infinitesimal. He thought that that defeated Mr. Robinson's argument. He (Mr. Olarke) quite agreed that the number of such cases must be infinitesimal,
and, as Mr. Manifold had said, it was almost inconceivable that any landlord would choose such a course of action. lIe (Mr. Olarke) would be inclined to think if a landlord refused to advance the seed to his tenant himself, and refused to allow the Government to do so, that he must have some sinister object. He would think that the landlord desired to get rid of the tenant, or, ·to put it morc mildly, that he was acting against public policy. The point that the landlord must have some power to save himself was lllet by clause 10, which provided that the landlord could payoff the loan to the Government and assume the Government's place as first mortgagee. That seemed to him (Mr. Olarke) to absolutely safeguard the interests of the landlord. If he found the situation getting intolerable, he could payoff the loan.
The Hon. A. A. AUSTIN said that a tenant getting an advance for seed from the Government had to give a lien over the whole of the crop. He might only provide half the seed, and the landlord might provide the other half. Under agreements between him (Mr. Austin) and his tenants, he provided half the seed, and the tenants provided the other half. Under the clause a tenant would have to give a lien over his (Mr. Austin's) half, as well as over his own half. He was not in the least bit frightened, but undoubtedly that would be the effect of the clause.
The Hon. J. D. BRowN.-,-It was not contemplated that the landlord would contribute any seed.
The Hon. A. A. AUSTIN said it had been stated that if the amendment were passed, in the event of the landlord refusing to allow the tenant to obtain an advance from the Government, and refusing to advance the seed himself, the land would lie' idle. But if the tenant were not able to carry out his contract, surely to goodness the landlord would be able to get a new tenant.
The Hon. F. HAGELTI-IORN (Minister of Public Works) said it was quite true that a great many legal subtleties could be raised in regard to the Bill, and if it were a permanent measure no doubt it would have to be clifferently draWl). Certainly in that case the assistance the Government was proposing to give could not be given so generously or
I
Seed Advances [22 D.r.:CEMBER, 1914·1 , Bill. 441
universally. Here w.as a proposition to give relief for a year in as wide a Pleasure as possible, so as to secure that as large a crop as possiole would be put in for next season. The reply to the objections that have been raised was that the strong probabilities were that i.f the Government did not find the money for the seed wheat and fodder, the land would not be put under crop, and the landlord would get no return of any kind at the end of the year.
The Hon. T. BEGGs.-He could graze the land.
The Hon. F. H1.\.GELTHORN said he did not know whether the honorable member had any experience of land in the Mallee in a season like this. It would .carry about one sheep to 100 acres. It was either wheat or nothing up there.
The Hon. T. BEGGs.-I have had land in the MalIee.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN said he ventured to say the honorable' member had not made a fortune by grazing it. Honorable members should not be too punctilious in regard to matters of this kind.
The Hon. J. STERNBERG said he was glad the Government had introduced a Bill with a view to making advances to farmers to assist them in getting seed wheat, but there was a provision in the Bill that did not appear in a measure that Was passed on a previous occasion :for a similar purpose. He ventured to say that if the Minister of Mines had lived in the MalIee, and knew all about what was going on there, he would be more sympathetic. He desired to protest against the inclusion in the Bill of a provision to the effect that where an advance was made, a mortgage had to be given to the Government. Under tho regulations issued in connexion with au advance of money for seed wheat PUI"
poses in the past, a licence lien was all the security that was asked for by the Government. That in itself was sufficient, security, and he was informed by the IVlinister in charge of the Department that the Government lost no money. In 'view of that fact, surely it was not necessary for the Government to ask for mortgages and liens on improvements. The Bill should be taken back and :t'e,drafted, in order to attain the results 'which honorable members desired. The
Government should not ask for more than proved satisfactory when similar advances were made in the past. A number of hard-working men in the northern portion of Victoria should not be denied the opportunity to obtain seed wheat, yet the Government wou1d not be able to come to their rescue if the Bill were carried out in its entirety. He thought the unofficial leader of the House should submit an amendment on the lines which he (Mr. Sternberg) had indicated.
The Hon. '1'. BEGGS said he would ask leave to withdraw the amendment, with a view of substituting another.
The amendment was withdrawn. The Hon. T. BEGGS moved-That the words "the whole" in sub-clause
(1) be omitted, with a view of inserting "his share."
He said that if that amendment were agreed to the Government would have ample security.
The Hon. J. D. BROWN (Minister of Mines) said this was a business Bill, and he must oppose the amendment.
The amendment was negatived, and the clause was agreed to.
Clause 8-(Preferable lien on crops). The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said
sub-clause (3) was as follows:-Sections 160 and 161 of the Instruments Act
1~90 shaH not apply to any preferable lien glven to the Board pursuant to this Act.
Und.er the Bill, as drawn, it might be possIble for the Government to insist on liens over the crops of three years. If sub-clause (3) were allowed to stand without alteration, the rights of the landlord or the mortgagee to recover any rent or any interest that might be due would be held in abeyance for that time. If there were a dishonest farmer or a man excessively hard up, that would be a direct incentive to him not to pay his rent or his interest. If the Government chose to insist on the repayment of the whole of the advance in one year, he would agree that the rig'hts of the landlord and the mortgagee should stand in abeyance for that year j but if the Government proposed to spr~ad repayment over three years, he did not think it was fair to the landlord or the mortgagee to make them wait all that time. It really amounted to this, that the Government was making things easy for the cultivator and the country storekeeper at the expense of the Jandlord or the mortgagee. The risk should be divided.
442 Seed Advances' [COUNCIL.] , The Hon. F. HAGELTHoRN.-The mort
gagee would come· in before the storekeeper.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said that would not be so under this provision. He moved that the following words be added at the end of sub-clause (3) :-
"over any crop, whether in the ground growing or harvested, which is the produce of any seed obtained or partly obtained under the provisions of this Act, or which has been sown or produced oy the aid of fodder obtained under the provisions of this Act."
That would give the Government full control o,ver the land for the year during which the crop was grown from seed supplied by the Government. If the Government chose to give the farmer two years extra in which to re~ay what was due for the seed or fodder advanced, then it was unfair to do that at the expense of the landlord or mortgagee altogether. If the Government chose to give extended terms they should take their chance with the others for the second and third years.
The Hon. J. D. BROWN (Minister of Mines) said he had had a conversation this afternoon with the Minister of Lands, who was really responsible for the Bill. The honorable gentleman had told him that this clause has been specially included, not for the purpose of taking away any rights of the landlord, but to meet special cases. Those associated with land transactions in the country knew that a farmer might be in debt to different parties, such as the bank, the storekeeper, and the machinery merchant. If the machinery merchants, for instance, were to enforce their contracts this year, they might put t~e farmers into a difficult position. The farmer who owned his land wanted to pay his debts.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD.-The clause deals only with tenants and mortgagors. If this amendment is not carried, the landlord or the mortgagee will be in such a position that he has no control over the tenant for three years.
The Han. J. D. BROWN said that during the three years the landlord might get his rent. If the Government did not take the whole of a farmer's crop in one year, he might also pay something to the bank, something to the storekeeper, and something to the machinery merchant. The clause was a liberal one to assist that class of farmer.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFoLD.-And not the' owner.
The Han. J. D. BROWN said it was desired that everyone interested should get some share of the crop in the first, year. •
The Han. W. S. MANIFOLD.-The clause is an incentive to a tenant to tell the landlord to "go hang."
The Hon. J. D. BROWN said hethought the honorable member took an entirely wrong view of the clause.
The Hon. J. STERNBERG said he k~ew tha~ mach~nery merchants had proVIded ~grlCulturlsts with machinery under exceptIonally easy conditions. Their practice was to tak~ a lien and allow the fa,rmer to pay so much each year. The past season had been so bad that no such ~erchant would hesitate about allowing It to IiItand over. He was rather in favour of Mr. Manifold's amendment. It seemed to him that the Government were endeavouring to legislate too rigidly for fear of making a loss. Why should the Government wa.nt to allow the thing to ru~ on for two or three years. With the aSSIstance of Divine Providence the farmer ought to be able to pay the State next season.
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE said he certainly thought Mr. Manifold was right as far a.s mortgagees and landlords were concerned. He considered if the· Government had a preferable lien for one year it should be quite sufficient. The Govern~~I!-t would be perfectly safe. The MInIster seemed to imply that the storekeeper a,nd the machinery merchant were expected to take rank above the landlord.
The Hon. J. D. BRowN.-I did not take that view.
The Han. FRANK CLARKE said he thought the Minister had expressly favoured the repayment of all other debts. The landlord should rank equally with other creditors. He supported the amendment.
The Han. R. B. REES said that in his opinion the amendment would be unworkable. Fancy trying to differentiate between a crop grown from seed advanced by the Government and that which was raised from the farmer's own seed! The chances were that some of the farmers would have a certain amount of seed t,hemselves, and they would get a certain amount from the State. Under the ~qnendment it would 00 necessary to discriminate between the crops grown from the two lots of seed. He considered that,
1
Seed Adtvances [22 DECEMBER, 1914.] Bill. 443
the Government were doing a wise thing in allowing everyone to come in Bnd ahare in the returns from the first year's crop. On the last occasion such advances were made theJ6 was a difficulty because the Government stepped in and collared the whole of the crop, but they allowed the merchant who purchased the whea.t to return the balance s.fter their claim was satisfied. Now it was proposed that the Government should take part of the -crop, and that the storekeeper and the machinery merchant might come in.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD.-How about the landlord 1
1'he Hon. R. B. REES said the landlord came in with everybody else, but had no prior right.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN.-The Government is satisfied first and the landlord comes in afterwards.
The Hon. R. B. REES said, if the Government had supplied a man with £100 worth of seed from which 1,000 bags, or £600 or £700 worth of wheat was obtained, the Government would be paid its £100 first of all. Then, as far as the balance was concerned, he presumed that the landlord would come in right away. If a man lost all his crop owing to grubs or a thunderstorm, then, of course, there was a difficulty. In such a case the Government would come in the second and third year, but so would the landlord and everybody else. He had ~nown of a crop of 300 acres being beaten mto the ground by a thunderstorm in one night. He considered that the provision in the present Bill was better than had been made in 1902, when the Governmen t collared the lot.
The Committee divided on the amend-menti-- .
Ayes 12 Noes 7
Majority for the a.mend-ment 5
Mr. Robert Beckett " Beggs " Frank Clarke II Crooke " Manifold " Melville " Merritt
AYES. Mr. Payne
" Robinson " Stern berg
I Tellers: Mr. Austin " Richardson.
NOJlJ~.
Mr. Angliss I Mr. Jones " BaiIlteu Tellers: " Brown Mr. McLellan " Hagelthorn " Rees.
The clause, as amended, was agreed to, and clause 9 was also agreed to.
Clause 10-(I) Notwithstanding anything in this or any
other Act, or in any mortgage, or lease, or agreement, no mortgagee, lessor, or landlord shall, unless he first pays to the Board the total amount due by the cultivator be en-titled- '
(a) to seiz~ or distrain any crop, whether growmg or harvested, of any cultivator during the period for which any preferable lien given under thi:3 Act is in force; or
(b) whilst any such crop is in the ground and .not harvested to take any proceedmgs by way of ejectment against the cultivator.
(2) Every mortgagee, lessor, or landlord who so pays to the Board the total amount due by the cultivator under this Act may recover the sa.me from the cultivator as a debt, together WIth all costs of proceedings attending the recovery thereof, or retain or deduct the same out of any money in his hands belonging or payable to such cultivator; and all payments mad~ a.s aforesaid by a mortgagee shall, until repaId or recovered, be added to the principal !ll0neys secure~ by his mortgage, and bear Interest accordIngly.
(3) In this section the term II crop" has the same meaning as in section 157 of the Instrument~ Act 1890, but is not restricted to crops growmg and not harvested.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said he had a number of amendments to move in this clause, following on the arguments that he used on clauSe 8. It was right .enough to give the Government the prior claim to the crop produced from ~he seed supplied by the Government, but It was not rIght to suggest that the landlord or the. mortga;gee, in order to get control of hIS land III the second or third years, should be asked to pay two-thirds of the loan given to the farmer in the first year. It was right to give the Government full power for the first year, but after that they should take the risk. He begged to move-
That the words .. unless he first pays to the ~oard the total amount due by the cultivator," In sub-clause (1), be omitted. He had other amendments to move later on in order to carry out what he desired.
The Hon. J. D. BROWN (Minister of Mines) said that this Bill was a Money Bill, and that the amendments would have to be moved as suggestions.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD.-It was not introduced by a Governor's message.
The CHAIRMAN.-I think it is a Money Bill, judging by clause 13.
The Hon. J. D. BROWN said he thought it would be advisable for him to move that progress be reported.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said it had been suggested to him that they
444 Seed Advances [COUNCIL.j Bill.
should go through the Bill, and then get the opinion of the President as to whether it was a. Money Bill.
The Hon. J. D. BROWN (Minister of Mines) said he did not propose to address the Committee again on this question, for the arguments he used on clause 8 applied to the amendment. He hoped the Com· mittee would not accept the amendment.
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE said the Committee had assisted Mr. Manifold in protecting the landlord on clause 8, but now Mr. Manifold appeared to have got on to the other tack. As the clause stood, the landlord had the privilege that if he found himself in a bad position he could correct it by paying off the Government. If the amendment were carried, the landlord could not go to the Government and say. "Take your money, and let me get back to the position in which I was before. " That power would be taken from the landlord for one year under the amendment. It would make his position less secure. Mr. Manifold was thus taking away with one hand what with the other he asked should be given. He (Mr. Clarke) fancied that, by a further amendment, Mr. Manifold would place the Government under the landlord for the second and third year. He (Mr. Clarke) did not object so much to the landlord being allowed to stand on an equal footing with the Government in the second and third year as to his being allowed to step in before the Government, which was a very different thing when the Government had made the advance. The Government were endeavouring to conduct the business on a financial basis. The first amendment would deprive the landlord of a right, and the second amendment would allow the landlord to go over the head of the Government.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said that Mr. Manifold proposed to take a right away from the landlord. It was desirable that the landlord should be able to say that he could pay the Government off and enjoy his full rights under his deed. He could not appreciate _he amendment.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said that his amendment in clause 8 gave the landlord the property in the second and third years, and gave him the right to exact one year's rent or interest before any of the crop was sold. The two amendments should stand or fall together.
The amendment was negatived.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT moved-
That the word "due" in sub-clause (I) be omitted, with the view of substituting the word "owing."
It had been suggested to him that the word "due" would ordinarily signify that it was due at the end of the term for which the money was lent.
The Hon. J. D. BRoWN.-I do not think it will make the slightest difference.
The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT
moved-That the following new sub-clause be adied
to the cla.use;-(4) For the purposes of this section all per
sons or corporations (whether trustees or not) being mortgagees... lessors, or landlords, are hereby authorizea to ma.ke such payment to the Board as aforesa.id.
The amendment was agreed to. The clause, as amended, was agreed to,
as were also the remaining clauses. The Bill was reported with amend
ments. The Han. J. D. BROWN (Minister of
l\1:ines) moved-That the Bill be recommitted for the purpose
of further considering clauses 8 and 10.
The motion was agreed to" and the House again went into Committee to consider clauses 8 and 10.
Clause 8, containing provisons with regard to preferable liens on crops.
The Han W. S. MANIFOLD said that sub-clause (3) had been amended to read as follows:-
Sections 160 and 161 of the Instruments Act 1890 shall not apply to any preferable lien given to the Board purtmant to this Act over any crop, whether in the ground growing or harvested, which is the produce of any seed obtained or partly obtained under the pro· visions of this Act, or which has been sown or produced by the aid of fodder obtained under the provisions of this Act.
It was absolut,ely nece·seary, to make sense of the Bill, that the words inserted as an amendment should be struck out, because the Bill, with the amendment, would have a contradiction in t,erms. This was what he was asking the Committee to provide. The landlord was given a. prior right, after the :first year, to get his rent, or the mortgagee to get his interest... In clause 10 as passed there was a contradiction, because the Government liens took precedence of the landlord altogether. It was a pity to let the Bill go
Seed Advances Bill. [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Sewerage Districts Bill. g:: 445
away with such a contradiction. He moved-
That all the words after "pursuant to this Act" be omitted.
The amendment was agreed to. Clause 10-( 1) Notwithstanding anything in this or
any other Act, or in any mortgage, or lease, or agreement, no mortgagee, lessor, or landlord shall, unless he first pays to the Board the total amount owing by the cultivator, be entitled-
(a) to seize or distrain any crop, w hether growing or harvested, of any cultivator during the period for which any preferable lien given under this Act is in force; or
( b) whilst any such crop is in the ground and not harvested, to take any proceedings by way of ejectment against the cultivator.
(2) Every mortgagee, lessor, or landlord who so pays to the Board the total amount owing by the cultivator under this Act may recover the same from the cultivator as a debt together with all costs of proceedings attending the recovery thereof, or retain or deduct the 'sa~e out of any money in his hands belonging or payable to such cultivator; and all payments made as aforesaid by a mortgagee shall, until repaid or recovered, be added to the principal moneys secured by his mortgage, and bear interest accordingly.
( 3) In this section the term "crop" has the same meaning as in section 157 of the Instruments Act 1890, but is not restricted to crops growing and not harvested.
(4) For the purposes of this section all persons or corporations (whether trustees or not) being mortgagees, lessors, or landlords, are hereby authorized to make such payment to the Board as aforesaid. .
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT ~aid tne Minister had pointed out that all kinds of disasters would follow on the small amendment that had been made. He would therefore move-
That the word "owing" be omitted and " due" substituted.
The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT
moved-That sub-clause (4) be omitted. The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said
that an amendment was required a.fter Bub-clause (3). He moved-
That it be a suggestion to the Legislative Assembly that they make the following amendment, namely, add the following new subclause :-" (4) For the purposes of this section all persons or corporations . (whether trustees or not), being mortgagees, lessors, or landlords, are hereby authorized to make such payments to the Board as aforesaid."
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was reported with further
amendments and a suggested amendment.
SEWERAGE DISTRICTS BILL. The House went into Committee for the
further consideration of this Bill. Clause 2 was postponed. Clauses 3 to 6 were agreed to. Clause 7, containing provisIon with re
gard to the preparation of a general plan and description of proposed sewerage works.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said it was provided in sub-clause (3) that the description should clearly set forth-
(g) the waterworks authority from which, and the terms and conditions upon which a supply of water can be obtained for the purposes of the proposed undertaking. That implied that the township sewerage area was to get its water from the waterworks authority. How about places that had no waterworks authority, and which might be getting their supplies from a. la.ke or small creek 1
The Hon. F. HAGELTH0RN (Minister of Public Works) said he did not know of a town of reasonable size where there would not. be a waterworks authority. If it obiained its wat.er from a creek, although there might be no waterworks such as weirs or pumping plant, yet there was an authority o·ve·r the water.
The Han. W. S. MANIFOLD.-They would have to get permission 1
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN.-Yes. The clause Was agreed to. Clause 8, containing provision with re
gard to entries upon lands and the payment of expenses of preparing plans.
The Hon. W. S. l\1ANIFOLD said that it was provided here that, for any of the purposes which were mentioned, the applicants might "contract one with the other or the others." What was the meaning of that provision 1
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works) said a group of municipal authorities might combine together, and where there was some municipal author~ty inside a ~at.erworks area it was necessary that they should contract with each other.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said subclause (2) provided-
Any expenses incurred for the said purposes may be paid out of the municipal funds of the several municipalities of which the applicants or any of them are the council; but no expenses so incurred shall be paid out of the municipal fund of any municipality except with the consent of the council thereof. The council might have been dead against the sewerage proposition from the
446 8ewerage Districts [COUNCIL.] Bill.
beginning. Clause 5 provided tha.t if the municipality ·refused to make the application that was necessary, a majority of the ratepayers could petition for it, and the Governmep.t would put on the pressure by stopping all money coming due to the council. But that only applied to the first application. Where a. council had been coerced to make the application they might refuse to pay the expenses.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHoRN.-I think that is hardly likely.
The clause was agreed to. Clause 9, providing, inter alia, that
the notification provided for in the clause should be advertised "in one at least of the Melbourne daily newspapers."
The Hon. R. B. REES' said he wished to know why a sewerage scheme in the back country must be advertised in this way in a daily paper in Melbourne. He could understand the notification being inserted in the Government Gazette, but why should it be inserted in a Melbourne daily paper 1 There were some good papers outside of ~1:elbourne, especially in Bendigo and Ballarat, and there were also some very good papers in the Mallee. He moved-
Tha.t the words "in one at least of the Melbourne daily papers" be omitted.
The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as 'Were also clauses 10 to 20.
Clause 21, providing, inter alia, thatThe Governor in Council, by the order COll
stituting a. sewerage authority, may provide-
(b) where the sewerage district is not (either wholly or with the exceptions aforesaid) within one municipal district--that the members of the sewerage authority shall be elected by ratepayers.
The Hon. A. ROBINSON said he desited to know hOow the members referred to in paragraph (b) were to be elected.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works) said the method of election would be precisely simila.r to the methods adopted by municipal councils.
The clause was agreoo. to, as· were clauses 22 to 27.
Clanse 28-(No member to take part in any matter in which he is interest.ed).
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE said he supposed the object of the clause was to prevent member~ of sewerage ,autFlOrities trying to persuade their fellow members to accept contracts in which the former
were monetarily interested. He would. point out that sub-clause (1) provided-
Any member of a, sewerage authority who, except in the fixing of rates and charges under this Act, votes upon or takes part in the discussion of any matter before the sewerage authority in which he has directly or indirectly by himself or his partners any pecuniary interest, shall be lia.ble to a penalty not exceeding £50, and shall on the recovery of the penalty cease to be a member of the ::;ewerage authority.
Every member of a sewerage authority had to be a ratepayer, and if the question was raised as to whether his house, or houses, should be sewered, according to the sub-clause he could take no part in the discussion. He (Mr. Clarke) thought that the word "matter" should be altered to "contract."
The clause was postponed. Clauses 29 to 39 were agreed to. Clause 40-(Hours to oe worked by
workmen, and rates of wages). The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said the
clause was on the lines of a clause in the Public Contracts Bill which was discussed last session. The Public Contracts Bill applied to all public contracts, whereas the Bill now before the Committee only dealt with one ve"ry small section of public contracts. The Council had thought it absolutely necessary to incorporate in the Public Contracts Bill a provision providing against preference to unionists. For some reason or o·ther that provision was not even brought up before another place. The Government, in this Bill, had introduced the wages provisions without introducing the anti-preference provision. Hie thought it was very inadvisable in a Bill of this kind, which dealt only with a small section of public contracts, to fix the wages of the workmen, and that was particularly the case at the present time when we anticipated having a very bad time during the coming year. It seemed to him absolutely wrong at the present time to fix rates of wages, or hours of labour, or anything of that kind. These things ought to be left to settle themselves. There appe·ared to be a sort of contradiction in terms in the clause. It was proposed to· fix absolutely a minimum wage for unskilled workmen, whereas all skilled workmen were to be paid "the recognised standard rate for the recognised hours." The unskilled man was to have his wages and hours premanently fixed by statute. The skilled man was
Sewerage Districts [22 DECEMBER, 1914·1 Bill. 441
to have his wages and hours varied in accordance with the times by Wages Boards. However, putting aside that point, it was absolutely wrong that one kind of public work should be singled out for a provision of this kind. It was true that in Railway Construction Acts, for SOlliG years past, the rates of wages had been fixed, but he thought it was high time that the Council refused to allow the practice to go any further. If the Government chose to bind themselves to paying definite wages, he aid not think it was any reason why they should compel the sewerage authorities to do so. He trusted· that the Committee would vote against the clause.
The clause was postponed.
Clauses 41 to 47 were agreed to.
Clause 48, providing inter alia-(I) All goods, machinery, or material pur
c~ased to the amount of £100 at anyone tIme by any sewerage authority, or by any contractor for any works undertaken by or on behalf of a sewerage authority, shall be manufactured or produced in the Commonwealth, unless the sewerage authority or contractor before contracting for tile purchase of such goods, machinery, or material shall satisfy the responsible Minister of the' Crown administe.ring this Act that goods, machinery, or materIal manufactured or produced in the Commonwealth cannot be purchased, or can only be purchased at an unreasonable price or can only be purchased in insufficient quan~ tities or of a quality unsuitable for the works.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said that a similar provision to clause 48 was thoroughly discussed in connexion with the Public Contracts Bill last session. He thought it got the name of the "door mat" clause. Practically it meant that no sewerage authority could purchase imported goods, machinery, or material over £100 in value without going to the Minister, s~anding. o,n his door-step, and getting hIS permIsSIOn. If these sewerage authorities could not be trusted to carr!y out the terms of an Act of Parliament, they ought not to be appointed. He would suggest that sub-clause. (1) be amended by striking out all the words after the word "unless" down to a'Dd including, h " ' t e words can only be purchased," and
inserting the words " such goods, machinery, or material cannot be manufactured or produced in the Commonwealth."
The clause was postponed, as was also clause 49.
Clauses 50 to 66 were agreed to.
Clause 67-Any debenture issued by a sewerage autho
rity under this Act shall be deemed to be a debenture issued by a city or town within the meaning and for the purposes of section 22 of the r.rrusts Act 1896, and shall be a lawful investment for any moneys which a.ny company or body corporate incorporated by any Act of the Parliament of Victoria is authorized or directed to invest, in addition to any other investments expressly prescl'ibed for the investment of such mo~eys.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said he would like to know why the word " bOl'ough" was not contained in the clause ~
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN.-I suppose the Trusts Act does not include boroughs.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said it did. Would the clause in any way imply that a borough could not issue debentures 1 However, that was not the principal point to which he wished to refer. The clause provided that any debenture issued by a sewerage authority should be a lawful investment for any money which any company or body corporate incorporated by any Act of the Victorian Parliament was authorized to invest. Was it intended that trustees should not be given power to invest in these sewerage debentures~
The clause was postponed. Clauses 68 and 69 were agreed to. Clause 70-(Loams by Governor in
Council). The Han. FRANK CLARKE said he
would like an explanation from the Minister of su b-cla use ( 4) , which provided-
A sewerage authority shall not borrow moneys by assignment of rates and charges, 01' by the issue of debentures, so long as it has any moneys outstanding in respect of any loan or advance by the Governor in Council.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works) said he thought the object of the clause was to prevent a sewerage authority borrowing from two sources. That was to say, if it had a Government loan it would not be allowed to borrow from some external source.
The Han. FRANK CLARKE said that there might be sewerage operations which it was estimated would cost £50,000, and the preliminary work might c9st £5,000. The sewerage authority might borrow that £5,000 from the Government at 5 per cent. Later on it might find that it could get the balance of the money at 4~ per cent. from an outside source. Under the sub-clause it would be prohibited from doing so.
448 Sewerage Districts [COUNCIL.] Bill.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKE'f'l'.-vV e could insert the words " with the consent of the Governor in CounciL"
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE said such an amendment would be an improvement.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (l~Iinistel' of Public Works) said he thought that the provision which Mr. Clarke had referred to was all right. There were two or three methods of borrowing which a sewerage authority could adopt. The clause would prevent a sewerage authority from borrowing by assignment of rates and charges.
The clause was postponed. Clauses 71 to 86 were agreed to. CIa use 87, provi.ding, int er alia--(2) No rate made under this Act shall be
recoverable after the expiration of five ye~rs from the making of such rate; b~t nothmg herein contained shall affect the sald charge.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said sub-clause (2) introduced a new statute of limitations, the period being made five years instead of six years. He moved-
That the word " five" be omitted, with a view to inserting the word ,., six."
The amendment to omit the word (' five" was agreed to.
The Hon. J. STERNBERG movedThat the blank be filled by the insertion
of the word "three. " The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said he
thought Mr. R. Beckett's proposal was very much better than Mr. Sternberg's. Everyone knew that a debt became uncollectable after six years, and it would be very much better to fix that term.
The Hon. J. STERNBERG said he would withdraw his amendment.
The amendment was withdrawn. The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT
moved-That the blank be filled by the insertion of
the word "six." The amendment was agreed to, and the
clause, as amended, was adopted, as was clause 88.
Clause 89-(Sale of lands to enforce charge).
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said to understand the clause it would be necessary for honorable members to look back at clause 87, which provided that every rate made under the measure should, with interest thereon and until paid, be and remain a charge upon the property. From the very moment that a rate was made, and a date fixed for its payment, it became a charge on the land. Under clause 87, interest did not become pay-
able until after six months, but subclause (1) of clause 89 provided-
For the purpose of enforcing allY charge as aforesaid for rates and interest thereon proceedings may be had and taken in the Supreme Court or in any County Court, and the Court may order the sale of the whole or any part of the lands subject to the charge. Under clauses 87 and 89 it would appear that it would be possible for a sewerage authority to sell land right away if the rates had nO't been paid.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public WO'rks) said that if A owed B £10, and did not pay it, B could get a verdict of the Court, and A's land could be sold to satisfy the debt.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said that proceedings under clause 89 would be very expensive. They would entail a considerable O'utlay of money. Under the Local Government Act proceedings could be taken in the way provided in the clause after rates had been owing for twO' or three years. The clause did not provide that after the sale th~ land would be exonerated from the charge. The Melbourne and l\1etropolitan Board of Works had sold properties which did not realize the amount owing.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works) said that he would ask the Committee to pass the clause. ·If necessary, it could be recommitted.
The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 90 to' 103.
Clauses 104 and 105 were agreed to. Clause 106-(Power to dispose of sur
plus land). The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said
under clause 105 the sewerage authority might compulsorily purchase or lease land for the purposes of the measure. Clause 106 provided that any land acquired, and no longer required by the sejyerage authority, might, with the consent of the Governor in Council, be sold O'r leased for any term not exceeding twenty-one years. He would call the attention of the Minister to the fact that, under clause 109, where land was purohased by the sewerage authority, the owner had the right of pre-emption. That showed that. the original owner could get the lanC:! back. Why should not the same thing apply to' land taken compulsorily and leased 1
'rhe Hon. F. HAGELTHORN.- I will agree to postpone this clause, and, if necessary, recommit clause 105.
The clause was postponed. . Clauses 107 to 110 were agreed to.
I ~ (
Sewerage Districts [22 DECEMBER, 1914.J Bill. 449
Clause l11-(In assessing compensation accruing advantages to be estimated and deducted).
The Han. A. A. AUSTIN said the procedure-, he understood, was something after the style of that adopted in the assessing of· compensation in connexion with land which was taken for new railways. The man who lost his land was to have a deduction made from his compensation corresponding to the enhancement in the value of the land and the advantages which would accrue to him as the result of the work. An owner alongside might have his property increased in value, and lose no land at all. He thought it was most unfair. He trusted that the Committee would reject the clause.
The Han. F. HAGELTHORN (Minist.er of Public Works) said he thought that the clause was a fair one, and protected th~ interests of the owner whose land was taken. The advantages which would accrue tu him by reason of the construction of the work would be taken into consideration' and that was only fair.
The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 112 to 184.
Clause 185-(Minister to have power to decide disputes).
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE said he would like to ask whether this clause would remove all appeals to Courts by persons aggrieved under the me-asure. He cunfessed that he had not had time to study it, but it appeared to him that the Minister would decide all disputes, and that whatever grievance a person in ::t sewerage area might have he could not appeal against the Minister's arbitration.
The Hon.I·'. R AGELTHO.RN (Minister of Public Works) said that was a fact. Might he say that most people were ::tnxious to secure the Minister's decision in such disputes 1 Most of them could not get as far as the Minister. Of course, the Minister's actions were always subject to re-view bv Parliament.
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE-Suppose a hundred complaints were made to the Minister, would he investigate them all himself 1
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN said he thought the Minister would d.elegate his authority.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said it seemed to him that the disputes which thE! Minister had power to decide were disputes which arose between sewerage, municipal, or waterworks authorities.
The. clause was agreed to.
Clause 186-The council of any municipality out of the
municipal fund thereof, and any waterworks trust out of the revenues thereof, may apply all charges, costs, and expenses necessarily and properly incurred by such council or trust under this Act, whether within or without the municipal district of 'such municipality or the waterworks district of such trust (as the case may be).
The Hon. vV. S. MANIFOLD mo.vedThat the word "uefmy" be substituted for
I( apply."
The amendm~nt was agreed to, and the- clause, as amended, was adopted.
Postponed clause 2-Nothing in this Act shall apply to any por
tion of Victoria within the "metropolis" as defined in the Acts relating to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works or the "drainage area" as defined in the Acts relating to the Geelong W' aterworks and Sewerage Trust.
The llOIl.
mo.ved-ROBERT BECKETT
That the words "Except where hereafte~ expressly provided" he inserted before •• nothing."
He said that the object o.f the amendment was to permit certai.n clauses in the Bill to be applied to. the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board o.f Works. This measure was large,ly the work of the Chairman of the Board, ~ho, with the experience he had had in connexion with the working of that great body, had been able to introduce many machinery clauses of great value, clauses which would assist the sewerage authorities in conducting their business smoothly and t without friction. Now, many of the provisions of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Bo.ard of Works Act were out o.f date. His amendment would allow certain machinery clauses, which did not deal with any matters of substance, to be applied to. the BoaJ."d of vVorks. A similar provision was inserted in the Wawr Act some time ago.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minist·er of Public Works) said it was desired to dispose of this Bill to-night. He had no objection to the amendment, although there might be object.ion to it in another place. In the meantime, he thought it might be accepted.
The amendment was agreed to, and theclause, as amended, was adopted.
Postponed clause 28-(No. member to take part in any matter in which he is interested).
450 Sewerage Districts [COUNCIL.] Bill.
The HOll. FRANK CLARKE said subclause (1) of this clause stated-
Any member of a sewerage authority who except in the fixing of rates and charges und~r this Act, votes upon or takes part in the discussion of any matter before the sewera.ge authority in which he has directly or indirectly, by himself or his partners, any pecuniary interest, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £50, and shall on the recovery of the penalty cease to be a member of the sewerage authority. He had come to the conclusion that he was right in his cont.ention that this provision was too wide in its extent, and might disentitle excellent people from sitting on the Board. He moved-
That the words " matter before" be ·omitted and the words "contract or transaction of" be inserted.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said he could not see how the amendment would improve the clause.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said that in the Local Government Act the words" any contract or work" were the words used.
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE said he would withdraw his amendment.
The amendment wAs withdrawn and the clause was agreed to.
Postponed clause 40-1. (a) The hours to be worked by any un
skilled adult workman employed by a sewerage authority shall not exceed forty-eight ]lOurs in anyone week, and the rate of wages to be paid by a sewerage authority to such workman shall not be less than 8s. per day of eight hours.
(b) Any such workman may work for a ~ewerage authority overtime for a special payment which shall not be less than time and a qultrter for the first two hours so worked, and time and a half for each subsequent hour.
( 0) The rate of wages to be paid to and the hours to be worked by all skilled workmen employed by a sewerage authority shall be the recognised standard rate for the recognised hours.
Provided that any workman employed in tunnelling shall be paid not less than 9s. per day of eight hours.
2. Any sewerage authority offending against this section shall be liable to a penalty not pxceeding £10, recoverable by any person in a Court of Petty Sessions.
3. Nothing in this section shall apply to any persoll or class of persons so employed in any locality where, under any determination of a Special Board under the Factories and Shops Acts in force in such locality, the wages and hours of labour of such person or c lass of persons a re specifically fixed and determined.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said he would invite honorable members to vote
against this clause. There was no use in repeating the arguments. He admitted that they had passed a few measures in which the rates of wages had been fixed.
The Hon. A. A. AUSTIN. - We will make a change now.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said they would do so.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works) said that honorable members were aware that the Houso nearly succeeded in passing the Publil~ Contracts Bill, which would have covere,i all measures of this kind. As it had not been passed, it was necessary to have this clause in this measure. A similar clause had been embodied in measures of a similar character passed by the House. It was contained in Acts passed for the construction of railways and tramways, and in the Country Roads Act.
The Hon. A. A. AUSTIN.-We are going to stop that.
The Hon. J. K. MERRITT said that Parliament should not fix wages, for Wages Boards existed for that purpose. The fixing of wages was outside the sphere of Parliament, and especially was it undesirable to say that a man should be paid not less than 9s. for tunnelling. Why should the wage be fixed for one particular class of men, when there were bricklayers and others? He thought that the whole of the clause except paragrap~ (c) should be struck out, and that the word "skilled" in that paragraph should be omitted. If that were done. the rate of wages and the hours to be worked would be the recognised standard rate for the recognised hours. He moved-
That paragraphs (a) and (b) be omitted, that the word" skilled" in paragraph (0) be omitted, and that the remainder of the clause be omitted.
The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON said he supported the position taken up by Mr. Merritt. These sewerage works were a country matter, and not a metropolitan matter. It was provided by the clause that the minimum wage should be 9s. for tunnelling. That might be a fair rate to pay in the metropolis, but it might not be fair in the country districts, where the Bill was to operate.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHoRN.-I suppose you want to get the Bill through?
The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON said he would like to see the Bill passed. This
Sewerage Districts [22 DECEMBER, 1914.J Bill. 451
House was very much belittled through a large number of Bills coming down at the end of the session. He wanted to see this Bill passed, because it was required in the interests of the health of the people. It was not required for Geelong, because sewerage works were now under construction there.
The Hon. A. HICKS. - And you had trouble there over the wages.
The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON said there should not have been trouble. If the amendment were agreed to, then the wage that would be paid would be the recognised standard rate. The conditions in the country districts were quite different from those in the metropoli.'3. The. extra cost of living in :M:elbourne should be considered. This measure was not on a par with the measures referred to by the Minister of Public Works. Railway construction measures were entirely a Government matter, and to a great extent the Country Roads Act was also. The whole of the money was found by the Government for the roads, though half of it had to be repaid by the municipalities. In this case the whole of the money was to be found by the districts in which the sewerage works were constructed. We might have very hard times during the next twelve months, and some of the municipAlities, if they found they had to pay those high wages, would not put the measure into operation. In the country the cost of living was less, and the mell employed lived near the work, and were not put to the expense of travelling in trams or trains. In the interests of sewerage works he strongly supported the amendment. The people could not be in a healthy state without a proper system of sewerage.
The Hon. A. McLELLAN said he had not spoken previously on this Bill because when he recognised the value of a measure and was entirely in sympathy with its object) he thought it wise to say very little on it. Honorable members knew that the measure would be of great value. By the introduction of a sewerage system in Melbourne, the death rate from typhoid had been reduced from 78 to 7 per 100,000. He believed that the same result would follow the introduction of sewerage in the country, where the death l'ate from typhoid was double that o:f the
metropolitan area. If honorable members proceeded with the amendment the Bill might be lost.
The Ron. W. S. MANIFOLD.-No fear. The Hon. A. McLELLAN said that it
was stated that the municipalities in the country would be compelled to pay the standard rate of wage. In that event there could be no harm in having therate in the Bill.
The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON .-Leave it to the Wages Boards.
The Hon. A. McLELLAN said that the House had approved of this principle fOl' several years past, but now it was proposed to depart from it. Was 8s. a day too much? On the Public Contracts Bill he asked the Minister in charge what skilled labour was, and the honorable gentleman had to admit that he did not know.· Much of this work was of a very heavy nature. The men who did such work used more effort in a day thaa many honorable members did in a week. It was not only heavy manual labour, but it required a great deal of skill. This clause was only inserted t() insure the payment of a living wage. Were honorable members prepared to lose the Bill, or were they prepared to allow this principle to remain in it ~ Mr. Merritt by his amendment admitted the principle, because the sub-clause that he wished to ha.ve retained contained the principle of fixing wages by Boards. After all, there was nothing new in fixing a wage of 8s. or 9s. a day.
The Hon. J. K. MERRITT.-We are not a Wages Board.
The Hon. A. 1\{cLELLAN said that perhaps honorable members were just as competent t.o :fix the minimum wage fOl"
this particular work as a Wages Board. Some of these men were probably not under Wages Boards.
The Hon. R. B. REES said that paragraph (c) of this clause provided that-
rrhe rate of wages to be paid to, and the hours to be worked by, all skilled workmen employed by a sewerage authority shall be the reco~nised standard ra.te for the recognised hours.
Now, supposing this work was being carried on at Bendigo or Ballarat. where he understood the rate of wages for miners. doing a similar class of work-tunnelling -was from 50s. to 52s. a week, this provision would really moon a rise of wages for this class of work. The Wages Board
452 Sewerage Districts [COUNCIL.] Bill.
had fixed the rate for ordinary IDlllmg work at 50s. or 52s. a week, and the work done under this measure would be only ordjnarv tunnelling work, in no way different from ordinary mining work, yet under this clause the men would get 9s. a day, £2 14s. a week, so that, under this provision, they would really be raising wages in Bendigo and Ballarat. The only difficulty he saw' in connexion with Mr. Merritt's proposal was with regard to what was the recognised standard rate of wages for work of thi~ class. Supposing this work was started in Bendigo, tho workmen there would immediately say that the recognised rate in Melbourne under the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works was so-and-so, and would demand that rate of wages, although the c~nditions of work in the country might be quite different. In his (Mr. Rees') opinion, the 'best course would be to knock out the whole of the clause relating to the rate of wages. The Minister, of course, would have a great amount of control in a matter of this kind, and he thought the Minister, and especially the present Minister, would see that there was a proper rate of wages being paid by the sewerage authority. At any rate, th18 was only an enabling Bill to have a general sewerage law in Victoria. Whenever any work had to be done which came before the Minister or Parliament, then they could deal with the matter in detail. He understood that, before any money could be appropriated or spent in such a case, the matter would have to come before Parliament, or, at any rate, before the Government; then the Government could deal with the question of wages. If there was a Government in office of which Mr. McLellan was ~
Sewerage Districts [22 DECEMBER, 1914.] Bill,. 453
a fictitious rate of wages, private employment necessarily suffered, and a large number of men were thrown out of work. There was another aspect of the matter which had been put to him by the secretary of the Country Employers and Producers Association, who had written to him as follows:-
Ballarat, 21st December, 1914. DEAR SIR,
Re SEWERAGE BILL. Unfortunately this association has not been
suppUed with a copy of this Bql, and has had to rely upon what can be gathered from the press. It is understood, however, that it is intended that the wages to be paid for country w.ork will be based on Mel-bourne rates. If such is the case, the desire of the country for country Wages Boards will receive a very severe set-back . . I am taking the liberty of handing you a
copy of some of the remarks by Mr. Mackinnon (Attorney-General) when the Bill was before the House in September last. It is hoped that the views he expressed at that time will have weight at the present juncture.
Yours faithfully, J. C. KELSALL, Secretary.
The remark~ made by Mr. Mackinnon which were referred to in this letter were as follows:-
The honorable member for Gippsland West, as I understand, wants to prevent the forcing of the Me~bourne trade union rate of wages On the whole of Victoria. This Parliament, rightly or wrongly, has recognised the difference between country Wages Boards and town Wages Boards, and that, I understand. is the honorable member for Gippsland West's idea in this matter. He tries to preserve the same principle in connexion with the operations of these various sewerage authorities.
Mr. MENZIES.-The President of the Federal 'Arbitration Court also recognises the differ-ence. .
Mr. MACKINNON.-I know there is power under the Federal Al-bitration Court to make different awards for different localities. taking into consideration the different scales of living in different parts of the country. . . _ . With regard to the matter of getting this principle through another place, the honorable member for Essendon seems to overlook the fact that if thp. amendment of the honorable member for Fitzroy iA inserted in this Bill, and another place is in the mind to resent the forcing of Melbourne trade union rates on the country districts, they may not be content with simply knocking out that proposal· the whole Bill may go. '
Sincp that courageous attitude 'Was taken UP. certain honorable members in another place had had cold feet, so that the clause which Mr. Mackinnon objected to was now inserted in this Bill. He contended that the clause was not fair from the country Wages Board point of view, or from the point of view of the interests of the whole community. There was no such
prOVISIon in the Bill when it was OrIgInally introduced, and it was only put in by a somewhat weak surrender of the Government to its opponents. He (Mr. Robinson) thought, in times like this, in veiw of the fact that this was to be a permanent measure. honorable members should face the situation. He ventured to say that there was not a member of Parliament who did not realize that the standard rate of wage·s which was fixed in good times must inevitably come down. They might as well, therefore, face the situation now, and say that this cast-iron provision was not a provision which should remain in the Bill. It was its indirect effects which he feared principally-it must have the effect of checking private enterprise, and checking employment by private people. At Bendigo, the effect of such a provision 'Would be to cause miners to leave ordinary mining and go in for this tunnelling, which was easier work, and work at a lesser depth, and under more pleasant conditions. The best miners would be taken from the mines, just as happened in Tasmania, and private enterprise would be injured accordingly. It must be remembered that the bulk of the p.mployment in connexion with production in this country must come from private enterprise. Under these circumstances, he thought it would not be a proper course to adopt a clause which would be extremely injurious to private enterprise.
The Hon. J. G. AIKMAN said that if the clause was struck out, and the Council's amendment was objected to in another place, he would like to know whether honorable members intended to insist on their attitude. For his part, he thought that under existing circumstances, and especially in view of the fact that this was local money which would be spent in the loca~ districts, it would be advisable to accept the provision. Some honorable membe'rs talked of the difference between wages in the country and the town, but he thought it would not be easy to get a navvy at all at less than 9s .. or at least 85. a day. He thought that was not too high a rate to pay for such 'Work. He would counsel honorable members not to throw out the whole clause, because it would probably mean either the loss of the Bill, or else t)le Council giving way eventually. One advantage of this proposal was that if men received 88. a day in the country Clistricts there would be less inducement
454 Sewerage Districts [COUNCIL.] Bill.,
for them to oome to Melbourne. He thought it would be far better to accept the Government proposal.
The Han. J. P. JONES said he thought it was a very cruel thing indeed for the Council to delete this clause. They had to remember that under existing conditions the workmen of this country had to pay an increased cost for every· thing they consumed. Taxation had been increased enormously, and taxation always hit the workers-it was passed on to them every time. Every honorable member. knew that the cost of living had gone up considerably since the war commenced. It would be a different matter altogether if the unfortunate depression we were suffering from was occasioned by causes such as we. had had hitherto-if it were a case in which the cost of living had gone down as the result of depression, but now we had a depression, with the cost of living rising considerably-it had risen all over the world, and it would continue to rise. This rise would affect very considerably men who had to work very hard in order to keep themselves and their families. These were the men who were the life blood of the country, and who were increasing the population. This House, however, apparently wanted the population to be increased on
. sweated labour, and he thought it was a. great shame that members of the Council should, on an occasion of this sort, take advantage of the unfortunate circumstances in which this country had been placed.
The CHAIRMAN.-I think the honorable member is getting away from the question.
The Han. J. P. JONES said he was commenting on what he considered to be the cruel and unjust deletion of a clause which was placed in this Bill to protect the workers of this country who would be engaged on these particular works. As he had already said, if the condition had been created under which the cost of living had gone down and rents had gone down, there would probably be. something in the argument of Mr. Merritt, but honorable members knew well that workers usually received very little more per week than was essential to keep their families together. It was only necessary to refer to the statistics in any country t.o show this, and where wages went up
the cost of living also ~ent up. The cost. of living on this particular occasion had increased out of all proportion to what it was a few weeks ago. Bread was up, meat was up--every£hing was up.
The Ron. R. B. REEs.-That is not owing to this House or the war . You are blaming this House.
The Han. J. P. JONES said the cost of living had gone up, and this House wanted to reduce the wages of these workmen. He· said that that was cruel in the extreme j besides, it might result in the loss of this Bill, which w'as a most important measure that was greatly needed in the' country districts. It would be most unfortunate if such a measure was lost thr.ough this House desiring to decrease the wages of hard-working men.
The Han. J. STERNBERG said he thought it would be a pity if a measure which was so important to the country districts were imperilled by the action which some honorable members desired the Council to take. He would ask honorable members to carefully consider the matter before. they voted. If they lost this Bill for the present session it would mean throwing a lot of men out of employment. The wages of 8s. or 9s. per dav were not too high for such a class of work. It was all very well for some honorable members to suggest that this clause should be struck out, but the Government had accepted this rate of wages, and why should not honorable members agree to the proposal1 He considered that they should endeavour in every possible waythis House particularly-to pass legislation which was going to give employment to many men who were out of work, and especially reproductive work. Under these circumstances he hoped honorable members would reconsider their intention in this matter, and not vote in such a way as would cause this Bill to be shelved. By practically throwing out the Bill to-night they would be causing at least several months' delay, and this would be very serious in such a case.
The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the clause--
AYM 10 Noes 13
Majority for the a.mendment 3
Sewerage Districts [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 455
Mr. Adamson " Baillieu " Brown " Hagelthorn " Hicks " Jones
Mr. Angliss " Austin " Robert Beckett " Beggs " Frank Clarke " Manifold " Melville
AYES.
Mr. McLellan " Sternberg.
Tellers: .JItfl'. Aikman " W. J. Beckett.
NOES.
Mr. Merritt " Payne " Rees " Robinson.
Tellers: Mr. Crooke " Richardson.
The Hon. R. B. REES said he thought the rate to be paid was as fixed under the clause as it had been amended as it would be 'with the provision with the 9s. a day in it. It would be better to delete the whole of the clause than allow a portion of it to remain. Undoubtedly the men would refer the authority to the rates paid by the Meloourne and Metropolitan Board of Works as being the rate customary in that class of work. One honorable member was talking a lot about the Bill being put in operation in Bendigo. He would venture to say that there were only a few streets there in which would be houses which would be sewered. Miners' cottages would not be sewered at a cost of from £50 to £60, because a cottage might not be worth more than that. It would also be necessary to carry the sewers long distances.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN.-I do not think the honorable member need worry about that.
The Hon. R. B. REES said that he would urge honorable members to consider the matter of deleting the whole clause.
The clause, as amended, was adopted.
Clause 48-(1) All goods, machinery, or material pur
chased to the amount of £100 at anyone time by any sewerage authority, or by any contractor for any works undertaken by or on behalf of a sewerage authority, shall be manufactured or produced in the Commonwealth, uuless the sewerage authority or contractor before contracting for the purchase of such goods, machinery, or material shall satisfy the responsible Minister of the Crown administering this Act that goods, machinery, or material manufactured or produced in the Commonwealth cannot be purchased, or can only be purchased at an unreasonable price, or can only be purchased in insufficient quantities or of a quality unsuitable for the works.
Any sewerage authority or contractor offending against this provision shall be liable to pa.y a penalty not exceeding £50, to be recovered, with or withont costs, by any person in a Court of Petty Session!:!.
(2) If goods, machinery, or material manufactured or produced in the Commonwealth cannot be purchased or obtained, or can only be purchased or obtained, in insufficient quantities, or of a quality unsuitable for the work, the sewerage authority shall give substantial and effective preference to goods, machinery, or material manufactured or produced in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the Dominions of Canada and New Zealand as against those of foreign manufacture.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT moved-
That the following words be omitted :_" the sewerage authority or contractor before COI1-
tracting for the purchase of such goods, machinery, or material shall satisfy the responsible Minister of the Crown administering thi::; Act that goods, machinery, or material manufactured or produced in the Commonwealth cannot be purchased, or can only be purchased," and the following words substituted. "such goods, machinery, or material cannot be manufactured, produced, or purchased in the Commonwealth, except".
The amendment was agreed to.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT moved-
That the words "authorized in writing by the Minister" be inserted after the words" by any person" in the second paragraph of suh'· clause (I).
The amendment was agreed to.
The Hon. FRANK CLARKE said that reference was made in the clause for the purposes of giving preference to the " United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the Dominions of Canada and New Zealand.' , In these. times, when the Empire was drawing closer together, it. would oe a fine thing to embody in the Bill the idea that the Empire as a whole should receive preferential treatment. It seemed strange that South Africa was omitted, and he did not understand why that was.
,The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clause 67-Any debenture issued by a sewerage autho
l'ity ·under this Act shall be deemed to be n. debenture issued by a city or town within thc meaning and for the purposes of section 22 of the Trusts Act 1896, and shall be a lawful investment for any moneys which any company or body corporate incorporated by any Act of the Parliament of Victoria is authorized or directed to invest in addition to any other investments expressly prescribed for the investment of such moneys.
456 Appropriation Bill. [COUNCIL.] Sewerage Districts Bill.
HA WKERS AND PEDLERS BILL. The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works) moved- This Bill was received from the Legis
lative Assembly, and, on the motion of the Hon. J. D. BROWN (Minister of
he Mines), was read a first time.
That the words "or borough" be inserted after the word "town II (line 3).
The Hon. J. STERNBERG said wished to know whether shires were eluded.
in-
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said shires did not come under the Trusts Act.
The amendment was agreed to, arid the clanse, as amended, was adopted.
Clause 70, providing that the limit of the borrowing power of a sewerage authority was not to be exceeded.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT said sub-clause (4) provided as follows:-
A sewerage authority shall not borrow moneys by assignment of rates and charges or by the issue of debentures so long as it has any moneys outstanding in respect of any loan Or a<1vance by the Governor in Council. He moved-
That the words "without the consent of the Minister" be inserted after the words "shall not."
The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as was also clause 106.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT proposed the following new clause:-
A. Section 53, sub-section (6), of section 82, sections 94, 135, 136, 140, 141., 150, 151, 156, 157, 159 to 163, both inclusive, 178, 179, 180, and 1.84 of this Act shall apply to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, which shall be deemed a sewerage authority within the meaning of these sections, and the provisions thereof sha.ll be subRti.tuted for any inconsistent provisions contained in the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works Acts.
The clause was agreed to, as were also the schedules and the preamble.
The Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (l\finister of Public Works) said that as a new clause was adopted, it was desirable to amend the title. He moved- .
That the words "and for other purposes" be added to the title.
ALBERT PARK LAND BILL. This Bill was received from the Legis
lative Assembly, and, on the motion of the Hon. W. A. ADAMSON (Honorary Minister), was read a first time.
RATING ON UNIMPROVED VALUES BILL.
This Bill was received from the I.-egislative Assembly, and, on the· motion of the Ron. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works), was read a first time.
JUSTICES BILL. This Bill was received from the Legis
lative Assembly, and, on the motion of the Hon. J. D. J3ROWN (Ministe,r of l\1:ines), was read a first time.
CROWLAND AND NAVARRE RAIL\VAY CONSTRUCTION TRUST
(INDEMNITY) BILL.
This Bill was received from the Legis-· lative Assembly, and, on the motion of the Hon. J. D. BROWN (Minister of Mines), was read a first time.
INSTRUMENTS BILL.
This Bill was received from the Legislative Assembly, and, on the motion of the Hall. J. D. BROWN (Minister of M.ines), was read a first time.
FOODSTUFFS AND COMMODITIES BILL.
This Bill was received from the Legislative Assembly, and, on the motion of the Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public \Vorks), was read a first time.
SEED ADVANCES BILL. The amendment was agreed to, and the This Bill was returned from the Legis-
title, as amended, was adopted_ lative Assembly, with a message intimat-The Bill was reported· with amend- ing that they had made the amendment
ments, and with an amended title. suggested by the Council in clause 10.
APPROPRIATION BILL. SEWERAGE DISTRICTS BILL
This Bill was received from the Legis- On the motion of the Hon. F. HAGEL-lative Assembly, and, on the motion of THORN (Minister of Public Works), this the Hon. W. L. BAILLIEU (Honorary Bill was recommitted for the further con-Minister), was read a first time. sideration of clauses 105 and 106.
Income Tax [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 457
Clause 105, giving power to purchase or lease lands for the purposes of the Act.
The Hon. ROBERT BECKETT Sc'tid it was provided in the clause that a sewerage authority might-
(a) either by agreement or (with the consent of the Governor in Council) compulsorily purchase or ta.ke on lease for such term as it thinks fit, and with or without right of purchase any land or premises within its se\verage district.
He thought the difficulty about the right of pre-emption could be met bv the insertion of a few words. He moved-
That the words "and with or without a right of pre-emption" he inserted after the words "right of purchase."
The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as was clause 106.
The Bill was reported to the House with further amendments, and the amenclmen ts were considered, and adopted.
On the motion of the Hon. F. HAGELTHORN (Minister of Public Works), the Bill was tlien read a third time, and passed.
SEED ADV l.\NCES BILL.
The IIouse went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill.
Clause 10, as amended by the Assembly on the suggestion of the Council, was agreed to.
The Bill was reported with the amendment made by the Legislative ~J\..ssembly on the suggestion of the Legislative Council, and the amendment 'was considered and adopted.
On the motion of the Hon. J. D. BROWN (Minister of MInes), the Bill was then read a third time, and passed.
INCO~IE TAX BILL The House went into Committee for
the further consideration of this Bill. Clauses 1 and. 2 were agreed to. Discussion took place on clause 3, pro
viding, in ter alia-(1)· Notwithstanding anything in thc In
come Tax Acts, the rates of the duties of income tax which shall, pursuant to the Income Tax Acts, be charged, levied, collected, and paid for the use of His Majesty in aill of. the Consolidated Revcmue for e:lch of t~e years ending on the 31st day of Decemher, 1916; the 31st day Of December, 1917; the 31st day of ,December, W18; and the 31st day of De-
Second Ses,9Wn 1914.-.[ 17 J .
cember, 1919, respectively, are hereby declared to be ati follows (that is to say) :-
(a,) On all income derived by any person (not being a company) from personal exertion-
(i) where such income does not exceed £500-
for every pound sterling of the taxable amount thereof, 3d.; and
(ii) where such income exceeds £500-for every pound sterling of the tax:
able amount thereof up to £500, 4d.; ,
for every pound sterling of the taxable amount thereof over £noo and up to £1,000, 5d.;
for every pound sterling" of the taxable amount thereof over £1,000 and up to £1,500, 6d.; and
for every pound sterling of the taxable amount thereof OVf'r £l~500, 7d.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD said it was provided t.hat where income derived from personal' exertion did not exceed £500, the Tate of tax should be 3d. fOl' every £1 sterling of the taxable amount thereof. But if a man had the misfortune to have an income of £501 he would have to pay at the rate of 4d. per £1 on every £1 of the taxable amount thereof. I t was not a fair thing to gq back in that way. The rate of 4d. in the £1 should only apply after the first £500. If the Government's proposal were carried it would not add very much revenue to thp. State, while it would do a great injustice to certain individuals. He moved-
That it be a suggestion to the Legislative Assembly that they make the following amendment in clause 3 :-1n sub-clause (1) omit the words "for every pound sterling of the taxable amount thereof up to £500, 4d."
The Hon. R. B. REES said he W~lM unable to sep. '\vhy clause 3 should be ill the Bill at. all. The custom was to declare the rates of income tax nt the end of every year-usually on the last night of the session. The rateswel'e determined according to the position of t.he :finance~. The Government were now departing from the usual custom. By clause 2 the rates for the current. year' had heen declared. Clause 3 declared the rate~ for the succeeding years up to the yenr 1!'l19,
The HOll. ROBER'r BEcKETT.-There will be a 11e\V Parliament then.
The Ron. R. B. REES said nollody knew whnt might happen during that period. The finances were in such " parlous state that undoubtedly we required to make some eHort to meet our
458 Income Tax [COUNCIL.] Bill.
liabilities, which were largely due to the drought. The special expenditure incurred on account of the war fell on the Commonwealth Government, and not on the State Government. In order to meet the special. circumstances, the Bill declared the rates of income tax not only for the current year, but for the succeeding years up to the year 1919. Circumstances might change very much. He hoped that the coming year would be a very prosperous year with regard to wool, wheat, and ot}ler primary products. He hoped that there would be a lot of produce to be carried on the railways at the latter end of 1915 and in 1916. Honorable members were all hoping that thero would be a prosperous time. That was the case in the year 1904-5. In fact, for a series of years after the bad year 1902-3 things were prosperous. He did not sea why certain rates of income tax should be fixed for succeeding years when the money might not be required. If it was necessary to increase the income tax, or double it, in any year, it would be well for Parliament to do it when the time for fixing the rates arrived at the end of the year. He could not see that it helped in the least to earmark a certain amount of the revenue for the Treasurer by declaring the rates of income tax for four years. It might be necessary to have a heavier income tax in 1916 than was provided. If that was the case, a special Bill would have to be introduced to deal with the matter. Why cumber this measure with a clause such as clause 3 ? Unless there was any special reason why it should be included, he would certainly vote against the clause.
The Hon. W. L. BAlLLIEU (Honorary Minister) said that he would, fir~t of all, deal with the larger proposition propounded by Mr. Rees. It was stated by the Premier, in introducing the Bill, that the reason the rates were declared for 1916, 1917, 1918, and 1919 was so that the money would be earmarked for the Treasury bonds that were being issued to cover the deficit that we were going to encounter. The Premier said that it was honest finance that the Government should show their creditors that they were prepared to impose taxation to pay the money borrowed. •
The lion. R. B. REEs.-Our creditors are our own people in this case.
The lIon. W. L. BAILLIEU said, irrespective of" what he had stated, revenue would be required for other purposes. The Treasury bonds would be redeemed over the period 1916 to 1919, and additional tax;ation in those years was necessary to raise revenue to redeem the bond::!. It was for these reasons that the rates for the years 1916-1919 were being declared n,ow. It was quite true that it was the custom to fix the rates of income tax at the end -of the session. The Government had gone one better than that. They not only, by the Bill, fixed the rates for next year, but for the four succeeding years. He thought it was the duty of the Government to make provision for the money it was borrowing to meet the deficit.
The Hon. R.' B. REES. - It has never been done before.
The Hon. W. L. BAILLIEU said he would not say that. In the past there had been accumulated deficits, and it had been necessary to impose taxation to meet them. The present Government were looking at the deficit before it arrived, and were making provision to meet it. lIe did not k1)oW how anyone could object to that. The most that could be said was that if by any lucky chance the revenue raised was "not required, the tax should be refunded. He freely admitted that it was not a usual thing for taxes to be refunded. He would remind MI'. Rees that bonds could not be redeemed by expressions of hope. All the extra money that would be raised would be wanted for the purposes of the State. He would now deal with the suggestion put forward by lVIr. Manifold. He thought that the reply to the honorable member's argument was that in Bills of this kind there was always a line of demarcation which caused a difficulty. Under the present law the man who had an income of £500 had to pay a certain tax, but he got an exemption of £150. As soon as the £500 mark was passed there was no exemption at all. He (Mr. Baillieu) was quite aware that it would be more scientific if the rates tapered off, but that was a complicated metnod, and he did not think the money involved was worth it. It must be remembered that if the suggestion wer~ adopted, the result would be to intensify what already have been raised as an objection to the Bill-that the Government
Income Tax [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 459
were not reaching right down to the lowest rungs of the ladder for the tax. What Mr. Manifold proposed would still further release a large number of taxpayers.
The Hon. W. S. MANIFOLD.-No. The Hon. W. L. BAILLIEU said they
would be released of the extra burden of ld. in the £1. That would mean intensifYIng the complaint he had mentioned. The answer to that complaint was that if the additional tax of 1d. in the £.1 were to operate over all the people who paid income tax, only £13,000 extra would be collected. It was felt by the Government and the Treasurer that it was not worth while, and their proposal would rele~se from the extra taxation the people who were less able to pay it. If Mr. Manifold's suggestion was adopted, there would still be an arbitrary jump when the next grade was reached. If the honorable member had suggested a scientific scale, t.he Government might have said, "This is very complicated, but we will accept it." But, seeing that the honorable member's proposal would not cure the position he complained of, the Committee would not be acting rightly in accepting it. He trusted that what he had said would be sufficient to induce the Committee to pass the clause, distasteful as it might be to all the people who would have to pay the additional tax. The trouble was that revenue had to be raised.
The Ron. R. B. REES said he thought t.hat on a pre-vious occasion, during &
period of stress, the minimum on which income tax was payable was reduceQ-. from £200 to £150. That was to say, everybody with an income of £150 had to pay n tax. Then when prosperity returned the minimum was again made £200, with an exemption of £150. Surely every one with an income of £3 per week could contribute a little to alleviate the financial stress of the State. The Government did not propose that. They were merely continuing the tax in the case of people with an income of £200 a year up to £500 a year, and increasing the burden very much on a man who had an income over £500 a year. Any amount of people receiving £500 a year were really poorer, owing to their responsihilitieg, than men receiving £4 or £5 a week .. A man acquired a certain mode of living on an income of £500, and he was less able, owing to his mode of living and
[17J-2
family responsibilities, to pay the tax than a man getting £4 or £5 a week. If the Government had not been afraid ')£ attacking the great proletariat they would have reduced the minimum to £150. lIe still thought that it was a wrong principle to :fix the rates right up to the year 1919. Treasury bonds had been issued over and over again in the past, and, S~) far as he was aware, no special provision of this sort had been made for their redemption. They were issued to our own people, and those were the very people who would pay this tax. The Bent Government, during years of prosperity, set aside a large sum of money out of the
·railway revenue. That fund to-day would have amounted to probably £600,000 if the present Government had not put un-
.,holy hands on it. The money put aside by the Bent Government had been swallowed up in expenditure by the presel1t Government. If he remembered rightly; there were two or three funds created bv the Bent Government, and a certain proportion of the railway revenue was to be contributed to those funds every year. During the Bent regime those funds amounted to a considerable sum of money. During the first year or two of the Murray Government the payments were continued. Afterwards the Governmen,t stopped the contributions to the fund~; and, as a matter of fact, collared tho money and spent it. This year there wa~ an estima ted loss of £600,000 on the railway revenue, and it had to be made UIl by the imposition of additional taxation. T'he Government should have r-etained those funds, so that out of the profits of the railways in years gone by the deficit in the coming y-ear of stress 'could be paid for. He still thought that clause 3 should be deleted from the Bin.
The moUon was neg'atived, and the clause was agreed to.
Clause 4-Notwithstanding anything in the Income Tax
Acts where any person, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, is dut'ing the war in which His Majesty is at present engaged, absent from Victoria. on nava.l or military service, whether with His Majesty's na.vy or army or under the provisions of any Act of the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia, all income earned, derived, or received during such absence by such person, and in respect of which he would but for this section be liable to tax, shall be exempt from income tax.
460 Geological SU7vey StafJ. [A.SSEMBL Y.] Motor Buses.
The Hon. A. A. AUSTIN said he did not object to this clause, but under the original Act everyone with a certain income must make a return, and he would like to know whether the representative of the person on naval or military service would have to submit a return under this provision.
Progress was then reported.
ADJOURNMENT.
HOUR OF MEETING.
The Hon. W. L. BAILLIEU (Honorar~ Minister) moved-
That the Council meet for the dispatch of business to-morrow at half-past 2 o'clock.
He said he submitted this motion in the hope t.hat the House would be able to finish early.
The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at eight minutes
past ten o'clock.
LEGISLATIVE ASSE~1BL Y.
T1.te8day, })ecember 22, 1911,.
The SPEAKER took the chair at eight minutes past eleven o'clock a.m.
GEOLOGICAL SURVEY STAFF. Mr. 0 UTTRIl\1 asked the Premier-1. If he has read the report of the Public
Service Commissioner on the Geological Suryey staff, and the reply of the staff thereto?
2. When will the matter be dealt with and a decision arrived at Y
: Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) .-In reply to the honorable member I have to confess that I read the report of the Public Service Commissioner some months ago, but that I have not seen the reply of the staff to that report. Certain promises were made in this House in the last Parliament, and it was decided that the Commissioner should visit the other States and supply a report. He did so, and that report was laid before the Cabinet, but the matter 'Was held over awaiting the reply of the staff. In consequence of the war having broken out the matter was deferred for consideration. I shall go into it, and bring it before the Cabinet at the earliest possible opportunity.
1\,1r. OUTTRIM.--Thank you.
MOTOR BUSES. Mr. HOGAN (in the absence of Mr.
McLACHLAN) asked the Chief Secretary-
If the Government is prepared to compel owners of motor buses running in the vicinity of Melbourne and suburbs to pay a licence fee of £ 7 5 per ann urn for each . bus; if not, is the Government prepared to undertake the running of motor buses in Melbourne· and suburbs?
Mr. MURRAY (Chief eecretary).-l saw this question but a few minutes ago, and I am going to give the honorable member a personal answer, for I have not had an opportunity of consulting my colleagues. In answer to the first part of the question I should say that it is more a municipal than a Government matter, and in regard to the latter portion of the question that it is an enterprise that the Government are not prepared to undertake.
Mr. WEBBER.-The municipalities have no power to tax. .
Mr. MURRAY.-I should be prepared to give them the power to tax the motor buses off the roads.
LAND TAXATION.
Mr. KEAST (in the absence of :Mr. ROBERTSON) moved-
That there be laid before this House a return showing-
1. The number of taxpayers, the amount paid by each, and the total amount of taxes paid on-(a) rural lands, and (b) "other lands" under the State Land Tax Act 1910.
2. The number of assessments and the amount of tax in gradations according to the unimproved value of the lands from £251 to £500, £501 to £1,500, £1,501 to £2,500, £2,501 to £5,000, £5,001 to £6,000, £6,001 to £7,000, £7,001 to £8,000, £8,001 to £9,000, £9,001 to £20,000, £20,001 to £50,000, £50,001 to £75,000, £75,001 and upwards.
3. The amount of income tax derived from land the unimproved land value of which is bet'Neen £5,001 and £9,000, and £9,001 and upwards, and the total.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (~remier) .~Before placing this motion on ·the notice-paper the honorable member for Bulla consulted me. and I said there would be no opposition to it on the part of the Government. Subsequently, I had a consultation with the honorable member and with the officers of the Land Ta~ Department, and I propose to amend the motion slightly. The first part of the motion states, "the number of taxpayers, the amount paid by each." The
Morwell Brown [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Coal Field. 461
amount paid by each taxpayer ig never disclosed. I think the honorable member for Bulla means the amount paid by each class. I move-- .
That the words "amount paid by each and the total amount" in the first paragraph be omitted, with the view of inserting the words "average amount."
With regard to the general information, I had a consultation with the officers this morning, and we are willing to supply the information in a general way. To supply it in detail would mean that twenty-five special officers would have to be set a,part to go through the whole of the returns. We can get substantially the information the honorable member wants. It would take twenty-five men four weeks to get the information as specified in the motion.
The SPEAKER.-Might I suggest that the motion should be postponed until the honorable member for Bulla is present 1
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I understand that the honorable member is not likely to be here to-day.
The amendment was agreed to, and the motion, as amended, was adopted.
MORWELL BROWN COAL FIELD. Mr. ROG ERS asked the Premier
(for the ¥inister of Mines)-1. If he will lay on the table of the Library
all the papers, reports, and statements conllcctcd with the Morwell brown coal field?
2. If there is an exemption from the labour covenants in existence on the Morwell brown eoal lease held by the Victorian Minerals Development Company; if so, when does this exemption expire?
3. How long has the Victorian Minerals Development Company been in possession of their Morwell brown coal lease, and how much legitimate mining have they done on the said lease'?
4. If he considers the granting of any further exemptions to the present holders of this lease will be in the best interests of the development of the brown coal industry of Victoria?
5. If a former Government or Minister of Mines ordered briqueting machinery to be purchased for brown coal purposes; if so, what has been done in the matter?
6. If the Government will see that briquet·jng machinery is purchased, so as to provide tram., goods, and employment for the State·owned. railway which runs into the mine, and which is closed at present?
7. If, in view of the electrification of the Victorian Government railways, the Government will take into serious consideration the question of utilizing the enormous deposits of brown coal known and. proved to exist, especially in the Gippsland district?·
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier).-The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows:-
1. Yes, 2. The lease is held under exemption which
expires on the 24th instant. 'fhe Victorian Minerals Development Company is not now the holder of lease; it is now held by the Victorian J.Jignite Products Company.
3. The Victorian Minerals Development Company was the registered holder of lease from 18th November, 1910, to 13th October, 1914. Mining has been carried on in the past, but without special inquiry it cannot be stated how much legitimate mining has been done.
4. The granting of further suspension will all depend upon the· reasons given by the company. .
5. No knowledge of any order for purchasing hriqueting machinery.
6 and 7. These matters will receive consideration.
The Government will go into the question at the earliest possible opportunity, because they feel that the.se brown coal leases witl have to be properly developed in the interest of the State.
Mr. BARNES asked the Premier (for the Minister of Mines)-. .
1. What quantity, approxlmately, of brown coal has been shown to exist in the Morwell district?
2. If the Government intends to take any action to develop the deposits?
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier).-The answer to the honorable member's questions is that an. est,imate based on bores put down gives the approximate area of brown coal beds in the Morwell district as 700 square miles, ana the,ir probable average thickness as 50 feet.
INSTRUMENTS BILL. Mr. MACKINNON (Attorney-General)
moved for leave to introduce a Bill to amend Dart 7 of the Instruments Act 1890. ..
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then brought in, and read
a first time.
CROWLAND AND NAVARRE RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION TRUST
(lNDEMNITY) BILL.
·Mr. MACKINNON (Attorney-General) moved for leave to, introduce a' Bill to indemnify the members of the Cro,," land and Navarre. Railway Construction Trust. for not repaying moneys obtained by overdraft of current account in a certain bank
462 Supply. [ASSEMBLY. ] Health Depa1'tment.
within two years of the constitution of such Trust, and for other purposes.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then brought in, and r.ead
a first time.
SUPPLY. The House went into Committee of
Supply for the further consideration of the Estimates of Expenditure for the year 1914-15.
HEALTH DEPARTMENT. The Minister of Health, £50,072. Mr. WEBBER.-I· want to call atten
tion to the Infectious Diseases Hospital, which is under the head of ordinarl expenditure. There is an item of £1,500 for half-cost of maintenance, and an item of £2,000 for half-cost of construction, making a total of £9,500. I desire to make some comments in relation to this expenditure, and tne manner in which the Department have carried out the Act recently passed by this House placing that institution under what was supposed 'to be entirely new management. Honorable members will recollect that about two and a half years ago charges were formulated by myself and other honorable members regarding the then management of the Infectious Diseases Hospital. A series of cha.rges were first brought by myself, but they were afterwards supported by other honorable members. The Ministry at the time considered these charges so serious that they appointed a Board of Inquiry composed of Mr. Tanner, P.M., to go into the charges, and also into the question at the management or mismanagement of the hospital. There is no need to go over the whole of the incidents. It is sufficient to say that the inquiry occupied something like forty-four days, and at its conclusion the Board decided that almost the whole of the charges made had been proved, . and it made certain recommendations to the Ministry. The Ministry then brought forward a Bill which proposed to a.bolish the old Committee and substi .. tute a new body to be elected on entirely new lines. Six members were to be elected by the municipalities which contributed towards the upkeep of the institution, and six by the Government. Previously the Government had no representatives on that body. notwithstanding that the Government paid half' the cost of the maintenance of the institution. When the inquiry was being held the whole of the
members of the old Committee, with the exception of Dr. Wheeler and myself, did all they could to prevent that inquiry be- . ing brought to a successful conclusion. They first tried to prevent any inquiry into the management. They said- there was no need for any inquiry, and that, to use a colloquialism, everything in the garden was lovely. One would think that men who were perfectly innocent of anything would have been only too willing to have the most exhaustive inquiry made, yet those members of the Committee, after first trying to burke an inquiry, but without success, did all they could to prevent evidence being brought out that might be detrimental to the institution. In a-ppointing the new Committee, one would think tbat t.l;le Government would have made a clean sweep and have put in new men, but they placed on the Committee as Government representatives two of the old members of the Committee-men wh() were chiefly concerned in the bad management of that institution, and who had been rejected by their own municipal councils. Noone was more surprised than myself when the late Premier, Mr. Watt, informed me privately one day, when I referred to the fact that the Act had been passed something like ·six months and no action had been .taken hy the Government to appoint representatives, that the Government were taking steps to appoint their representatives, and that two of them would be Councillor Stone, of Fairfield, and Councillor James Gardiner, of the Melbourne City Council. I pointed out. that these were the men who fought the hardest against any inquiry being held, and, subsequently, when it was being held, to prevent the fullest information being given to the Eo-ard, and later on had accused Mr. Tanner, P.M., of being biased, and of listening to one side only. I say that the action of the Go .. vernment in appointing these two particular men not only indorsed their remarks that Mr. Tanner was biased, unjust, and unfair, but also perpetuated these crimes in connexion with the management of the hospital some time back. There is no need for me to mention the whole of the charges that were made. but I have a few of the most shocking ~ases which I desire to bring under the notice of honorable members again. It was said that children were sent to the hospital with clean heads, and returned home with vermin. The Board said that charge was proved. It also said that children were
Health [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Department. 463
permitted to run about the hospital grounds imperfectly clad and barefooted, and that no action was tak~n by the medical superintendent when attention was drawn thereto. This charge also was proved. It was proved also that the boiler had not been inspected for seven years. Imagine the boiler having gone for seven years without inspection.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-What object can be served by going into all these trou bles of the past'
Mr. WEBBER.-In appointing tne Committee the Government should have appointed either members of the old Committee who had done their best to keep the institution clean and to have it con-ducted on proper lines, or have appointed new men. I am not speaking for myself, because as soon as the inquiry was completed I retired from the Committee, my parliamentary duties not allowing me time to act on the Committee. The only man who tried to do good and to make the iacts public and give me assistance was Dr. Wheeler. If he was a Labour man I could understand the Government having no desire to appoint him, because in making these appointments the Governlllent are carrying out their usual proce·dure of spoils to the victors, and only appoint men who are Liberals.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The ·honora.ble member is now spoiling his case.
Mr. WEBBER.-The Government have never been guilty of appointing one Labour man to any Board o'r 'Committee.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK:-That is nqt correct.
:lVIr. \VEBBER.-"'v\lith the exception of the Prices Board, on which Mr. Long was appointed. That is the only Board I have any recollection of in connexion with which such a thing was done, but, as a matter of fact, the whole of that affair was a farce. On no other Board wa·s a Labour man appointed. Dr. Wheeler, so far as I know, never votes La bour . I believe he is a good Liberal. He is a justice of the peace for Fitzroy, and is well known and respected. He tried to place the hospital on a proper rooting, and was entirely overlooked in the appointments, while those responsible for the hospital being in the state referred to were appointed to the Committee. When the matter was mentioned to me by the· lat.e Premier
-Mr. \Vatt-I said that these men were the men responsible for what had gone on. The next day I left for Sydney, ,and, on thinking the matter over, I saw that it would certainly be a farce to appoint members of the old Committee to the new Committee, which would mean allowing the same state of affairs to go on. Councillor Gardiner and Councillor Stone said the charges made by me were false; that the evidence was concocted; and that Mr. Tanner's decision was not in accordance with the evidence. They practically accused him of being biased. \Vhile I was in Sydney, I thought the whole matter over, and forwarded the following letter to the Premier:-
DEAR Sm, Sydney, 8/5/14.
While here in Sydney I have been thinking deeply over your remark to me that you had recommended Councillors Stonc and Gardiner for appointmcnt as Government representatives on the Board· of Management of the Fever Hospital at Fairfield. WheN. you mentioned this to me, recently, I tIten informed you that these two particular members of the "old" Committee strongly opposed any inquiry being held into the affairs of the Hospital, and I again desire to draw your attention to that fact. Not only did they oppose the proposal brought before the Committee by myself that an inquiry should be held, but afterwards, when Mr. Tanner, P.M., .. vas appointed a Board' of Inquiry, they did all they could to prevent me from putting my case before the said Board. A certain section of the Committee was severely 'censured by Mr. Tanner, and that section included Messrs. Stone and Gardiner. The Secretary of the Hospital (Mr. Henry Crosbie) told the Committee that he often rose very early in the morning, and went to the market to purchase cheaper vegetables for the institution. He also swore this before the Board, and Councillor StOlle, in his hurry to defcnd the Secretary, right or wrong, told the Committee that he had "over and over again" seen l\:Ir. Crosbie proceeding to the market early in the morning. Afterwards witnesses, both for and against the Hospital management, swore that Mr. Crosbie did not go to the market, and Mr. Crosbie admitted then that it was so, when cross-examined by myself. Thus Councillor Stone stood self-con-demned as a liar. .
That is absolutely correct. Councillor Stone was prepared to say that he had seen Mr. Crosbie going to the market early in the morning, over and over again. Mr. Crosbie, though he swore at first in the witness-box that he used to go to the market early in the morning, afterwards admitted that he had committed perjury. Thus Councillor Stone
464: Health [ASSEMBL Y.] Department.
was proved to have told an a.bsolute falsohood. ' The letter continues--
Furthermore, he was a member of the House Committee, but was absent more times than he was present. As far as Coullcillor Gardiner is concerned, 11e was one of the bitterest opponents to any change of the management of the Hospital, and when Mr. Tanner gave his findings, CQuncillor Gardiner was reported to have accused Mr. Tanner of being biased.
The Act p:tssed last session was, I understood, to place the management of the institution on a completely new basis, but to appoint to the new Board men who were responsible for the previous mismanagement and declared by a Police Magistrate to be guilty of being the cause of the shocking state of affairs that was shown to exist at the Hospital, will only be perpetuating the' wrongs of the past. Only one member of what is known as the "old" members of the Committee stood by me in my demand for an inquiry, :tnG that was Dl:. ?lheeler, J.P., of Fitzroy.
I would ask you if the months of work I performed prior to the inquiry, and the fortytwo days I spent in the Court in connexion with the case, are to be wnsted? If also Mr. Tanner's time and pa.instaking efforts are to be wastecl, and his filldings to be ignored? Was the p:tssing by Parliament of the Act only a farce? This, sir, I submit is what the appo'intmont of Councillors Stone and Gardiner will mean, and proteRting against their appoint~ent, T would respectfully ask you, sir, to give the matter further consideration before anything final is done.
The answer 1 got to that was in the usual stereotyped form. It read-
T nm directed by the Premier to acknow~edge the receipt of your letter of the 8th mstaut, and to say, in reply, that consideration will be given to the representations made therein.
No notice was taken of my protest, or of the findings of l\fr. Tanner, and two of the members of the old Committee were appointed to the new Committee. I ask the Premier to look into the whole matter, so as to see for himself whether the statements I am making are correct or not. I say that these men were declared by Mr. Tanner to be guilty, and that afterwards they were appointed to the Committee of this institution as Government representatives. I will give honorable members the names of the six mem bers of the Committee a ppoi'llted by the Government. One is Mrs. Brenan, of Royal Park. I do not know the lady, but I take it that she is a relative of the late Mr. Brenan of the Druids' Lodge. That .family has always taken a leading moveme'nt in connexion with charitable instituti'ons. Another member of the Committee is Mrs. Jeanie Hay, of 69 Bourke-street, Melbourne. I understand
,Mr. Webber.
she is the .wife. of Commissioner Hay, of t?e SalvatIOn Army. I have no objectIOn to her, Another Government repre'sentative is Frederick Miller Johnson, M.B., dh.B., M.D., of Albert Pa.rk; That is a good appointment. Another is Arthur Jeffreys Wood, M.B., Ch.B., M.D., the well-known specialist in children's diseases. That is another good appointment. Then we have Councillor .James Henry Gardiner. What special qualifications Councillor Gardiner has, I do not know. It may be said that I am prejudiced against him, because when I made a charge against the secretary of the institution and asked for an inquiry, Councillor Gardiner said he would pull my nose, put me out of the room, and doother things which he never carried out. He practically said, "We are the Committee; we have done no wrong." 'Vhen the Board of Inquiry said, "You have done wrong," he said, "The Board is wrong. " The Government then said, "You are right j Mr. Tanner is wrong; it was a farce for Parliament to pass another Act. vVe will indorse all you have done in the past by re-appointing you." Then there is Councillor John Henry Stone, of Fairfield. It was proved th~t he made deliberate misstatements in saying that, over and over again, he had ~een the secretary of the institution going mto town to the market early in the morning. It is well known that the charges I made against Mr. Crosbie of being drunk in tlie institution ~ of bringing women into the institution and turning it, 'to a cert::liu extent, into a brothel, were proved. Mr, Tanner said that he had not sufficient evidence to convict Mr. Crosbie, and, therefore, gave the Scotch verdict of "Not proven." The Committee said,. "We have complete faith in our secretary, and we will keep him on." But., at last, the Committeel had to dismiss hi~l1 or, rather, ask him to resign. He c:H1~ tinued doing the things I have spoken of right up to the date of his resignationgetting drunk and bringing 'women to the hospital in taxi-cabs. The Commit tc'e have, at last, been compelled to dismi~~ him, and they are no,w advertisin,g for a new secretary. Councillor Stone and Councillor Gardiner were the men who stood at the back of Crosbie j defended aU his actions j protected him as much as they could, though they knew that he was coming home drunk night after- night>
Health [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 DelJal'tment. 465-
getting up at 11 or 12 o'clock next morning, going straight into the city again, and absolutely neglecting his work. It is a well-known fact that during the inquiry gross perjury was committed, not only by Crosbie, but by the chairman of the Committee-Alderman Strong. One day he would swear one thing, and a few days :afterwards, when he was. cornered, he would make a different statement. 1\11'. Tanner, in ,giving his decision, said, (( I am satisfied that gross perjury has been committed during this inquiry." Altogether four or Bve men were guilty of committing perjury. No action was taken by the Crown Law Department to prosecute them. Councillor Stone and Councillor Gardiner were certainly guilty of ,backing up the men who committed perjury. When the new Act was passed, the municipalities were grouped, three or four municipalities forming each group, which .appointed one representative. Councillor Stone was not re-elected to represent his ,group. He was turned down by his own counoil.
lYIr. 1\IEMBREY.-That is not correct. Mr. WEBBER.-Why is it Councillor
'Stone was not appointed by his' council ~ Was it because he had inside information ;that the Government were going to appoint him 1
Mr. MEMBREY.-I ha ppen to know (Councillor Stone, and I know that what 'you are saying now is incorrect. He was uot turned down by any council.
Mr. vVEBBER.-The fact remains that Councillor Stone used to represent the :Heidelberg Council, but when the new Committee was being elected the Heidelberg Council ran another candidate.
Mr. MEMBREY.-For quite a different 'reason.
Mr. WEBBER.-The honorable ,gen.tleman perhaps means that Councillor Stone declined to stand for election, preferring to be a Government representa-
·tive. In that case he must have had information that he was going to be appointed as a Government representative. Perhaps the ,honorable gentleman had something to do with his appointment as a 'Government representative.
Mr. MEMBREY.-You can make all the innuendoes you like.
Mr. WEBBER.-Councillor Stone has no qualffications that I know of, and, with regard to his interest in the institution in the past, I may say that he hardly ever went there. Time after time, when
the members of the, House Co'mmitte.e were going to the institution, they would call at his house for him, but he would not attend the me·etings. I have no desire to speak with perSonal animosity against any individual. I am only speaking for the good of the institution. , I know the work that I put in, and that Dr. Wheeler put in, and also the painstaking way in which ·Mr. Tanner acted at the inquiry. Mr. Tanner recommended that the old Committee should be wiped out because they were guilty of the thin.gs I have mentioned. The Government said, " We do not believe in Mr. Tanner's re-, port; we will ignore it." •
Mr. HANNAH.-That was indiscreet on the part of the Government.
Mr. WEBBER.-It was most indiscreet for the Government to appoint members of the old Committee to the new Committee. I would not have objected so much if they had turned down the whole of the members of the old Committee. M,r. Sanderson, who represented the public at the inquiry, and who was not appearing either for the prosecution or the defence, said-
I think that all along Dr. Wheeler has tried to do his best for that institution; that he has not spared himself in any way, and it looks as if he has, to a certa.in extent, sacrificed 'himself and his own private interest!) in order to better this institution. the concerns of which he has 80 much at lieart. And up to the time when that unfortunate incident occurred at the' notoriouR Committee meeting, as we call it, I cannot lind anything' that shows that Dr. Wheeler WH,J:; Bot anything but a useful member of the Committee. Notwithstanding that, Dr. 'Vheeler was passed over by the Government, and the, appointed to the Committee men who had been condemned by Mr. Tanner as being parties to the gross state of affairs that existed at the institution. During the inquiry it was proved that the fire hoses were rotten and that the fire buckets were never filled. If a fire had taken place, perhaps hundreds of children would have been burned and toTtured. There were no precautions taken against, fire at all, and Mr. H. B: Lee, Chief Officer of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, reported that the fire hoses were rotten; that the plugs were covered over with earth; that some of them were a couple of feet down in the earth--
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Why go over all this ~
Mr. WEBBER.-The Government do not like it. They know t.hey have been
466 Health [ASSEMBL Y. J Department.
guilty of doing something more than an indiscreet action. They have been guilty of an absolute crime. The Premier knows that those two gentlemen were on the Committee when all those things took place. It was proved that dead bodies were carried through the wards.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Whcn I postponed the Estimates I did not think we would have all this discussion.
Mr. WEBBER.-The honorable gentJeman does not like it. When an honorable member believes that the Government have been guilty of criminal actions, it is his duty to bring them under the notice of the House. Does the Premier expect me to praise him up in connexion with this matter 1 I wanted to discuss the matter on the first division of the Estimates, but the Premier asked me, to wait until the' Estimates for the Health Department were under consideration. Now I would like to hear the Premier's reasons for the appointment of the' two ,gentlemen I have mentioned. The four other Government representatives are new members of the Committee. Not a word c'an be saia against them, and, no doubt, they will make good members of the Committee. I object, however, to the appointment of two old members. A clean sweep should have been made, and an entirely new Committee appointed. I would point out that, while the new Act was passed on 7th Febrllary, 1914, the first meeting of the new Committee was not held until 16th October, or eight months afterwards. It took the Government eight months to get the machinery of the Act into operation. It was almost as bad as the hanging up of the Workers' Compensation Act. In the course of his inquiry into the affairs of the hospital, Mr. Tanner complained on several occasions that he had great difficulty in getting the necessary documents from the institution. On a great many occasions the secretary refused to supply documents, and Mr.' Tanner had to use the powers confened on him to compel the secretary to bring the documents forward. In some instances the do'cuments were of the greatest importance, and referred to special cases. Yet they were found to be partly obliterated and destroyed, so that certain information would not come before the Board. Councillors Gardiner and Stone knew that that sort of thing was going on. Therefore, I want to hear the reasons . advanced by the Government for the
re-appointment of those gentlemen. Nodoubt, the old condition of affairs will continue, and there' will be a repetition of the charges made in the past, unlessthe other members of the Committee can keep those two ,gentlemen in check. They pretty nearly ruled the roost when they were on the Committee previously. .r have no desire .to bring such matters forward unless I can help it, but I considered it my duty to state the position to honorable members, in order to show that the passing of the last Act was a burlesque because of the re-appointment of members of the old Committee. The Premier will, no doubt, say that the docume'nts . were signed before he became head of the Government. However, he was a member of the Ministry which reappointed those two men, even if he were not Premier at the time.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier).-I have never hesitated to say privately to the honorable member for. Abhotsford, and publicly on the floor of this House, that he performed a public "duty in calling attention to the conaltio-n of affairs at the Infectious Diseases Hospital. I was one of those who helped to get the appointment of the Board of Inquiry which he has referred to. As a result of the investigation, Parliament passed a fresh Act, establishing a new controlling body representative of the Government, as well as of the municipalities contributing to the maintenance of the institution. On reflection, I think, the honorable member will see that he is pursuing the matter a bit too far. Great good' was do-ne as the result of the inquiry in directing attention to the maladministration of the institution, but the honorable member claims that two members of the old Committee, who may have made errors of judgment or mistakes in the past, should not have been re-appoiilted on the new Committee. It is quite true that the new body was not constituted until some time after the Act was passed. There was a reason for that delay. The Ministry felt that the Government nominees should not be appointed until we knew what representatives the municipalities had appointed. That took a considerable time. When I became head of the Government, I pressed t,he Minister of Health on the matter. It· appears that from one cause or another the municipalities which were' grouped did not meet for some time. Eventually,.
Health [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Department. 467
when the six municipal representatives were elected, the Minister brought up 3.
recommendation for the appointment of .six Government representatives. Now, it is always highly desirable to have a connecting link between the present members of a committee and those who have served upon it in the past.
:Mr. WEBBER.-The tw~ appointed opposed the inquiry being held.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I do not kno-w them.
Mr. WEBBER.-Why did IYou not appoint members of the old Committee who helped the inquiry 1 S~ ALEXANDER PEACOCK.
Although there may be difference of opinion between individuals, it does not necessarily follow that they are not competent to carry on the work.
Mr. WEBBER.-Of the old Committee men you might have re-appointed one who was for, and another who was against, the inquiry. There was Dr. Wheeler, for instance.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-He has been known to me for over a quarter of a century, and I have a great respect for him. Possibly, if his name had been submitted. I wouid have given it my support. The Cabinet knew. however, that Councillor Gardiner and Councillor Stone had rendered good service in the past. The honorable member for Abbotsford, al though he may differ in opinion from those with whom he is associated, would not say that they were incompetent because they did not see eye to eye with him in carrying out a particular work. The Government considered that it was highly desirable that there should be representatives of the medical profession who had made a specialty of infectious diseases appointed to the Committee. Accordingly, Dr. Johnsan and Dr. \Vood were selected. The Government also considered it advisable to appoint two ladies on the Committee, and I think the honorable member will agree with our action in that respect. The ladies asked to act as representatives of the Government were 1\1rs. Brenan and Mrs. Hay, the wife of
·the Salvation Army Commissioner. We ,thought that we had appointed a Committee -representing all interests, because, 'in addition to the municipal representa-
. tives, it contained two gentlemen who had been connected with the old management, two medical gentlemen and two ladies. I tpink all the honorable member con-
tended for when he commenced his agitation for an inquiry has been carried out. One of the municipal representatives who was a friend of mine told me a short time ag? that he was no't anxious for the appomtment, and that he went on the Committee somewhat prejudiced. He says, however, that the work of the institution is being conducted splendidly now. If the two gentlemen to whom the honorable me~ber ~or Abbotsford objects adopt the attltude In the future, which he assumes they have taken in the past, it is hardly' likely that they will be sa.' extremely strong as t'o influence the ten other members of the Committee. I will be pleased to confer with the honorable member respecting any matter which he desires to bring forward, but now that the new Act has been put into operation, I think we should wait and see how it works. If it ~s found that it is not working in the mterests of the poor unfortunate persons who are taken there-, I wiTl be only' too pleased to confer with him. I am sorry that the letter which he wrote to my predecessor was na.t brought under my notice. At the time the inquiry into the institution was made, I complimented the honorable. member as a 'new member on the pluck which he had displayed, and the time and attention which he haa given to this matter. I have Known Mr. Tanner for many years. He is a capable public officer. He does a great amount of public work outside his duties as police magistrate. In the circumstances, I hope the honorable member for Abbotsford will wait and see how the new Committee works. I think he will find that the two members he has mentioned will not be able to boss the other tell. If there is any cause for complaint in connexion with the institution. I shall be only too pleased to confer with the honorable member.
Mr. WEBBER.-I am not altogether satisfied with the Premier's reply. He stated that the Government could not appoint their representati'1es until municipal representatives were selected. The municipalities, however, had to wait until the Government took action.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I admit there was delay.
Mr. WEBBER.-The honorable gentleman said that the Government representatives could not be appointed until the municipal representatives were selected. I do not say for one moment that men may not have ,erred in the past.
4:68 Health [ASSEMBLY. J Department.
I would not complain so much about old members having been appointed if the Government had chosen men who had taken a neutral attitude when the inquiry was on. These two men tried to prevent the inquiry from being held, and then endeavoured to put obstacles in the way of Mr. Tanner. When he gave his finding, they still said they were right. The Premier stated that it was a good thing to have a connecting link 'between the old and the new Committee. No doubt that is so, but the two members selected fought against the inquiry. Dr. Wheeler, who worked very hard, was practically assaulted by .one of the members of the old. Committee, and he had to ask the Court for its protection.
Mr. HANNAH.-He could not pull the strings.
Mr. WEBBER.-No. It is manifestly unfair that Dr. vVheeler should have been everlooked. The· Premier says that he has known Dr. 'Vheeler for years, and if his name had been mentioned it would have received consideration. His name was mentionea, and a promise was made by the late Premier that Dr. Wheeler would be appointed to the Committee. He has always taken great interest in the institution, and Mr. Tanner gave him great praise for the work he had done. Some years ago, Dr. Wheeler made a charge against the, Committee, and asked for an inquiry. Not only was he refused, but he was accused of putting his nose into business that did not concern him. When I was appointed to the Committee he said, "Now there are two of us, and we shall have a fight." We both worked together to get an inquiry held. It was a case of a 'Liberal and a Labour man working together, but it was not a party question at all. ,Party principles should be sunk entirely in the interests of the children at the institution. The Ministry shoufd sink party, and should have appointed men who have not been parties to the misdeeds of the old Committee.
Mr. BAILEY.-I sbould like some definite assurance from the Premier as to what the Government intend to do with regard to the medical inspection "of the school children. At the last elections this matter was brought prominently before the electors, and I understand the . Government promised the Catholic Federation that they would extend to their schools facilities for medical inspectien, as in the State schools. The honor-
able member for Carlton, when speaking on this subject the other night, was told by the Minister of Public Instruction that the Government intended to appoint an additional medical officer, thus making four· altogether, for the inspection of the' State school children and children attending the Catholic and other registered" schools. I think a staff of four is totally inadequate to carry the work out pro-. perIy. I desire that the children attending other than State schools shall be· inspected, just as the children attending the State schools. The medical inspection is made to ascertain any physical defects in the children early in 'life, so that they may be remedied, and that the children may grow up healthy men and women. The Government also promised to extend other facilities to the registered schools in the way of Sloyd work, swimming, and other accomplishments. I should like to know whether the Government intend. to-carry out their promise to the Catholic Federation in respect to these matters.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK: (Premier) .-In reply to the honorable member for Port Fairy, I have to say that he can hardly expect all the promises we made to be carried out two or three weeks' after the elections. The Government have made a definite promise in respect to. these particular matters, that is to say, not only the medical inspection, but the Sloyd and swimming classes. They are to be extended to the non-departmental schools as soon as possible. We cannot make any definite promise about the details now. I admit that the appointment of an additional medical man will not be· sufficient. When I was Minister of Public Instruction I found that the staff was not sufficient for all the schools. We shall ha ve to go into. the matter very' carefully with the Director, and work out a scheme to get the best results.
Mr. SOLLy.-They have twelve medical officers in New South Wales.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-T can understand the difficulty in this mair ter in the country districts. The Minister of Public Instruction brought under my notice the desirability of meeting thedifficulty, and I provided ]500 to supplement the work of the bush nurses, who, may be able to do good service in the remote districts of the State. The problem is not as easy as it might seem. However~ I can promise that the necessary' .
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Department. 469
provision shall be made, and that we shall work out a scheme as soon as we get into recess. I· have been in sympathy with this idea for many years.
The vote was agreed to.
RAIL'VVAY DEPART~{ENT.
Minister of Railways, £4,123,141. Mr. KEAST.-I do not intend to
criticise this year's Estimates, but I notice that the Premier made a statement in the Budget to the effect that there was going to be an increase in freights and fares. This is not the time to make an increase in freights and fares, and it should not be done, even next year, for the country is having a bad time. It is a mistake to increase freights and fares while we have a severe drought and the war going on. I thought the Government would have been able to submit some better scheme to increase the revenue. In the ma'ny speeches I have made I have offered several suggestions by way of increasing production and adding to the railway revenue. I am still of opinion that, instead of increasing the. freights and fares, we should have more production, and in that way the railway revenue would be increased. I think it is time the Government did something practicable to increase our production. We have spent a great deal of money in buying land, on irrigation schemes, and in constructing roads and railways, but the State to-day is not producing as much
. as it did many years ago. In the year 1903,.4, the yield of wheat was 28,000,000 bushels, which we have only once exceeded within the last ten iYears. Surely there is something radically wrong. U we go on spending money on irrigation, on roads and railways, we ought to have more production. I find, after carefully looking up the matter, that we have only about 12 per cent. of our land under agriculture. That is a very small percentage of our good land. Sir Thomas Tait, when here, stated that if the lands over 1,000 acres within 10. miles of railways were brought under cultivation, it would give an extra return to the Railway Department of £1,500,000 per annum. We do' not want this paltry scheme of raising freights and fares when the community cannot afford it. We need something to increase our production, and there are many ways of doing it. The total number of acres in Victoria is 56,000,000, of which 28,000,000 aeres
have been sold. I may take it that nearly all of the best land has been sold. Half of it has been sold in areas of over 1,000 acres, and half in areas under 1,000 acres. All the blocks under 1,000 acres, amounting to 3,600,000 acres, are under agriculture or fallow, whereas of the blocks over 1,000 acres only 2,000,000 acres have been cultivated. If the blocks over 1,000 acres were cultivated to the same extent as those under 1,000 acres, we would have 1,600,000 acres more under cultivation or fallow than we have at present, and this would give a very big return. If that area was under cultivation, ~king an average of 12 bushels of wheat to· the acre, it would give an additional yield of 19,200,000 bushels, which, at 4s. a bushel, would give an extra sum of £3,800,000. The increase in the number employed would be about 10,000 persons, that is, including men, women, and children. Now, what difference would this make to the railway revenue ~ If we had this additional area of 1,600,000 acres under cultivation, the freight on the produce, at an average rate of lOs. per ton-which is the amount that a Royal Commission of which I was a member arrived at-would increase the railway revenue by £200,000 per annum. The Government propose to raise from £75,000 to £100,000 by increased freights and fares. vVhy increase them at a111 Why not take steps to increase our production 1 I hope that during the recess the Government will take these matters into serious consideration. The country will not have increased freights and fares, and the real question for consideration is increased production to increase the railway revenue.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitz'l'oy).-Would you vote for a Bill to compel the owners of land· to cultivate a certain portion of it each year 1
Mr. KEAST.-My statement is already in print. I w<j1ld vote for a Bill for the compulsory resumption of estates, and I should very much favour the introduction of a scheme by the Government for the cultivation of all cultivable land within 10 miles of a railway in order to increase tbe railway revenue.
Mr. MAc~INNoN.-Pro:fitable or nnprofit::tble cultivation 1
Mr. KEAST .-As long as it was pr.ofitable. I will take the evidence of the late Commissioner of Railways, Sir Thomas Tait. He said there would be a difference of £1,500,000 if all the properties
470 Ra·ilway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
Qver 1,000 acres within 10 miles of the railway ~hich were fit to be cultivated were cultivated. I want the Government to look into the matter, because we cannot go on raising freights and fares on the public of this country.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-Do you want the Government to cultivate that land 1
Mr. KEAST .-N 0; I do not. I said nothing about the Government cultivating the land, but our State is going back every year, and other States are going ahead.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-That is what we said at the elections.
Mr. KEAST.-The estimates M the Department of Agriculture, which were dealt with last night, show that there has been an increase in expenditure to the extent of £100,000 from 1903 to 1913. In 1901 the number of persons engaged in pastoral pursuits in Victoria was 30,920, and in 1911 it was 29,260, showing that not so many people are now employed in those industries. We want more production in order to increase the amount we receive from ·freights. In 1901, the number of people engaged in agricultural pursuits was 95,920, and in 1911 the number had fallen to 86,134. Surely, during the recess, the Governmen't can do something for the purpose of seeing that more land is brought under production. The Government are going to raise freights and fares. Although I can make no objection to that on the present Estimates, because there is nothing in the Estimates about the increase in the fares and freights, I hope that the Government will see that there is no extra taxation put upon the people. Everything that com~s from the land is taxed, and one will not be able to live in the country soon. N ow, there are to be extra freights and fares. The Government put on land and income taxes, and as there is not sufficient return from those, because of the bad season" they now talk of putting further charges on the prod ueers who suffer from the bad season.
Mr. MENZIEs.-That may be the reason for there being fewer people on the land.
Mr. KEAST.-I say that we make the people who produce pay too much in taxation. If things get bad in the country, they become' bad in the city. We are losing now about £1,500 a day on our railways.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-cc Base is the slave who p~s."
!\lr. KEAST.-That is a bit beyond me. I hope the Government will initiate some policy for the development of this country. We have a good rainfall, good land, and the railways linked throughout the Sta.te, and we also have irrigation. Under the circumstances, I hope that during the recess the Government will initiate a policy for the development of the country districts by having more land brought under production, and so giving bigger returns for the railways, instead of increasing freights and fares, as proposed.
Mr. BAILEY.-As the representative of a rich agricultural district, I could not allow this opportunity to pass without raising my voice in protest against the proposal of the Government to increase freights and fares on the railways. The people in my district are principally potato and onion growe,rs. In order to get their produce to the Melbourne market, it costs them a little over lOs. per ton, which is a great tax indeed. If the Government, at this juncture, goes in for an increase in the freight, it will mean that a great number of people in my district will give up cultivation, and go in for dairying. The policy of the Government should be to get people settled on the land, and give every encouragement to the cultivation of the land. Under present conditions, the man who goes on to a farm and cultivates the land, and puts his produce on the railways, pays for the hundreds of miles of railways that run through the squatters' properties. In sending produce from Koroit district to Melbourne, a large amount of money is paid in this way. The railway from Hamilton to Koroit runs for the most part through large squatters' runs. In my opinion, the man who cultivates his land is doing a great deal for the country, because he is giving a good return to the railways in the way of freight. I think that if the Government, prior to the last election, had told the people that they had proposed to bring about an increase of freights and fares, tliere would not have been a possible chance of the Government being returned to power in this Parliament.
Mr. ROGAN.-They were too wily for that.
Mr. BAILEY.-I should like to point out the .great injustice under which the people of the country suffer at present in
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Depa?·tment. 471
regard to railway trains. In the Western District, at the present time, there is a very great need· for the speeding up {)f our trains. The train from Melbourne to Port Fairy, known as the Port Fairy express, runs 185 miles in Qight hours, or at an average speed of about 22 miles an hou:r;, which I think is a disgrace to any Government having the control of the railways of this State. It is a gr~at disability to the country people. I thmk that the Government, in consultation with the Railways Commissioners, should take into consideration the speeding up of our country trains There is no excuse in connexion with the train I have mentioned, because there are' the heavy rails from Melbourne to Port F'airy. The train runs fairly fast as far as Colac, and then at every small station great delays take place. I think that if the Commissioners, instead of ~ending large sums of money in the' erectIOn of new refreshment rooms on that route, had put on a refreshment car from Geelong to Camperdown, the train could be run at an increased speed.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-Is that the line the Chief Secretary travels on 1
Mr. BAILEY. - Unfortunately, I understand the honorable gentleman resides in Melbourne instead of in his electorate. if he resided in his electorate, as I do, we should have hMl fast trains.
Mr. MURRAY.-The honorable membe,r will get to Melbourne :in time.
Mr. BAILEY.-In addition to what I have said, I would point out the great disadvantages under which the Western ports suffer so far as railways facilities from the Wimmera are concerned. At Port Fairy, the people of that district have spent huge sums of money in making that place attractive as a seaside resort. They have spent thousands of pounds in improvin,g the place and advertising to attract people there. TIl'e result is that thousands of people go to Port Fairy, recognising that it is the best watering-place in Victoria. But we find that the people from the Wimmera, if from Horsham, have to change trains when they get to Ara.rat. When they get to Hamilton they have again to change trains, and when they come to Colac they have to ch8J1ge trains a third time. If a man is travelling by himself, this does not inconvenience him very much, but people travelling to the seaSide in the summer usually go there for the sake of
their families, and have" their families with them, and a good deal of luggage, and then this changing of trains causes a great deal of inconvenience. We say that if the Government cannot give us a direct train once or twice a week, the least they can do is to hitch on a carriage which will run right to Port Fairy. Then, when the train gets to Ararat, the people going to Port Fairy will not have to change but can be taken on, and the same thing could be done at Hamilton and Koroit. I hope the Government will do something with regard to giving better facilities to people in the seaside resorts of the Western District, who are trying to make these places attractive, so that people in the hotter districts can come down and recuperate in the summer. At any rate, I hope this House will not tolerate for one moment the proposals of the Government in regard to increased freights on the railways.
Mr. MURRAY (Chief Secretary).May I be permitted one word of explanation in reply to the very serious charge the honorable member for Port Fairy has brought against me-that, representing a country constituency, I am living in Melbourne. Of course it is a terrible crime 'in the eyes of people whose horizon, perhaps, is not a very extended one, but when the honorable member has had a little experience of Parliament and of public life he will find tnat he can better represent his constituents by residing in Melbourne than by running up and do,wn by train, and he will be in a fitter physical condition to perform his manifold duties that are expected of him by the constituency of Port Fairy. I djd not growl at one time when I used to travel up and down. I suppose it is because I am built constitutionally in a different way from most people. We did not have the luxury of a train in the early days of my representation of a cqnstituency that, I may say, vies in importance with that which the honorable member represents. We had to travel by coach, leaving perhaps in the evening and journeying all night, and completing the journey by railway. I' quite agree that for a hustler the train does not travel at a satisfactory speed. We have endeavoured to impress upon the Railways Commissioners the desirability of speeding up the great Western train. On one occasion we did not do so withouh avail. When the new time
4:72 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
table was issued we were surprised and delighted to find that, accO'rding to' the schedule time, the running from Melbourne to Warrnambool occupied one minute less than it previously did. With that we had to be satisfie,d, and we felt it was rather a big thing to get a minute per a'llnum. In the course of sixty years we should have a train travelling that distance in exactly an hour less time than before. That would remind honol'able members of Tennyson's Locksley Hall, Sixty Years A/tel'. But I do think the honorable member for Port Fairy .has created a somewhat "vrong impression, unintentionally, I am sure, as to the country through which that railway runs. Between 'Varrnambool and Port Fairy there are now actually no large estates. They have all disappeared.
Mr. BAILEY.-1 was not particularly referring to that line.
Mr. MURRAY.-The process of subdivision has gone on in a marked degree for years, and I do not think that in any agricultural district will you find more closer settlement than in the Tower Hill district.~ I remember a former Premier, Sir Thomas Bent, referring to the number of hotels in Melbourne, and illustrating the position by saying that you could throw a stone from one to another, and that, in fact, it was impossible for a man to get thirsty in Melbourne. You could almost throw a stone from one haystack to another in a great part of the district which the honorable member for Port Fairy represents, and it would be no great effort to get from one potato pit to another. As he has said, it is the most fertile district we have in the State. I take a particular interest in that locality, and in whoever may for the time be re'presenting it.
Mr. DOWNW ARD.-Don't you think fixing the price of potatoes might encourage their production there 1
Mr. MURRAY.-So far as freight charges are concerned. the Koroit district has had no reason to growl, because the potatoes have been carried at a phenomenally low rate to enable the railways to compete with the water carriage.
Mr. BAILEY.-The Commissione,rs have abolished the preferential rates.
Mr. MURRAY.-That was due to the nction of the present Government, or its
.predecessor. I understand that the f:umers in that district do not altogether aprrove of the abolition of the preferen-
tial rates. Of course, the farmer, like everybody else, does not object to preferentIal rates when' they tell in his favour, as they did in that district. It actually cost less to send a ton of potatoes from Koroit to Melbourne than it did to send a ton of potatoes the shorter distance from Camperdown to Melbourne. On the whole, as the Minister of Rail\vays is well aware, ours is a lana flowing with milk and honey.
Mr. KE'AsT.-There is very little milk and honey in jt this year. .
Mr. MURRAY.-There i~ more in this district than in any other district at the present time.
Mr. KEAST. -lam speaking of the State.
l\1r. MURRAY.-The honorable member spoke a little while ago about the splendid rainfall we ha.ve in this State. and talking in that way does seem a little absurd when we are in the middle of the worst drought we have ever experienced.
Mr. KEAST.-l am taking it as an average against the other States.
Mr. MURRAY.-An average-that is the thing that hens lay on, is it not 1 The honorable member has had a great deal of experience in the other States. I envy him a little. He not only knows the other States, but has large possessions in the other States. They have brought the honorable member a great. deal of pleasure up to the present season, and I wish him a great deal of success. But probably I have been over more of the other States than the honorable member has.
Mr. KEAsT.-Rubbish! Mr. HOGAN (to Mr. Murray).-You
might tell the honorable member for Dandenong what a bad judge you consider he was about the prices of whe'at and fodder.
Mr. MURRA Y.-The honorable member for Dandenong assumed the role of the prophet after the event. He knew the drought was coming, and he blamed the Government for not having foresight. He blamed them for not taking his pro- . phecy seriously, and for not trimming their sails to me,et the coming disaster.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-He kn~w how it would be, because he saw how it was.
Mr. MURRA Y .-He knew what was going to happen, apparently. as early as September j but he himself, I understand, made no preparations for the drought, and here he is with a lot of starving stock on his hands.
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914:. I Department. 4;3
1\fr. KEAsT.-That is not correct. You are getting a bit vindictive and nasty.
Mr. MURRAY.-I am not at all vindictive, but I am pointing out the inconsistency of the honqra ble member. He made a prophecy; he expected the Government to believe in it; but he did not give us any evidence~f his own belief in it. 1s there any harm in saying that ~
Mr. KEAST.-It is the way you say it. 1\1:1'. 1\1URRAY.-I am in one of ~ny
most amiable moods. Mr. KEAsT.-I have never been per-
aonal to you. , Mr. MURRAY.-I am only taking the
honorable member on his public ut~erances.
Mr. HANNAH.-The honorable member for Dandeno~g made a good forecast.
Mr. MURRAY.-He told us we were going to have a drought; he expected the Government to believe it; but apparently he did not believe in what he was saying himself. But I have not the slightest desire to say anything offensive to the honorable member. He often indulges in a little playful badinage himself, 80metimes at my expense.
Mr. KEAsT.-I don't get personal. Mr. MURRAY.-In what way have I
been personal ~ If the honorable member thinks I have said anything of an offensive kind, I most unreservedly withdraw it, and regret having said it. .
Mr. HANNAH.-You are gettIng away from the subject.
Mr. MURRAY.-Of course, but I have been drawn off the track. The honorable member is the very last person who should reproach any member for getting off the track. It might be truthfully said of him that he is rarely or never on the track. He moves in his speeches in the most marvellous series of convolutions that I have ever listened to.
The CHAIRMAN.-I would ask the honorable gentleman to keep to the question.
Mr. MURRAY.-l have concluded what I desired to say. I have pointed out the great privileges that we enjoy in the Western District, and I have also referred to some of the few disabilities under which we suffer.
Mr. HOGAN.-I join with other honorable members in objecting to t·he proposed increase of freights and fares, and I want to carry the minds of supporters of the Government back to the statement made by the Premier in his policy. speech
at Creswick on the 17th November. He said-
Owing to drought, the railway receipts are bound to show a decrease this year. It is a time when all should be glad to make some sacrifice, and it may be necessary to effect economy hy a slight curtailment of the tra.velling facilities referred to.
There was no indication there of increased freights and fares. During the election campaign the Premier and all his supporters continually said, /( Look at New South Wales," We will have another look at New South Wales through the eyes of Mr. Knibbs, the Commonwealth Statistician, ill regard to' the railway freights and fares. The honorable member for Dandenong knows very well, even if the rest of the Government supporters do not, that Victoria cannot compare favorably with New South Wales in any way.
Mr. KEAS'l'.-Not in connexion with freights and fares.
Mr. HOGAN.-Victoria cannot COlll
pare with New South Wales with regard to material prosperity or low taxation. These are matters on which the Government supporters spread their wings and crowed like so many roosters. I find from the Commonwealth Year-bool,' that in New South Wales the fare for a. first class single passenger journey of 50 miles is 4s. 6d., whereas in Victoria it is 7s. 6d. In New South Wales the first. class single fare for 100 miles is lOs. 9d., and in Victoria it is 15s. In New South Wales t.he first class single fare for 200 miles is 23s. 3d., and in Victoria it is 308. In New South Wales the first class single fare for 300 miles is 35s. 9d., and in Victoria it is 44s. 6d.
Mr. DowNwARD.-Where is there a line 300 miles in length in Victoria 1
Mr. HOGAN.-You can get a 400-mile or 500-mile journey in Victoriasay from Bairnsdale to Serviceton, or from Mildura to Bairnsdale.
Mr. DOWNWARD.-Can you get a tic]{et from Bairnsdale to Mild ura 1
Mr. HOGAN.-Of course. Howevel, that has nothing to do with Mr. Knibh;' statistics. He is responsible for the figures I have given. I know that Ministerial members can do, a lot of thing~, but I have not ye·t seen them successfully smash up Mr. Knibbs' figures, which break them up every time they are availed of. In New South Wales the first class single fare for 400 miles is 48s. 3d., and in Victoria it is 58s. 2d. In New South
474 Ra-ilway [ASSEMBLY.] Department.
Wales t.he first class single fare for 500 miles is 588., and in Victoria it is 72s. Evidently in New South Wales a through ticket is issued for a 500-mile journey.
Mr. DOWNWARD.-In New South Wales there are 500-mile journeys.
Mr. HOGAN.-1 suppose Mr. Knibbs had reason to conClude that there are 500-mile journeys in Victoria.
J'\1r. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburn) .-1 suppose he took t,he fare from Mildura to Melbourne, and then from Melbourne to some other place.
Mr. HOGAN .-1 now come to the second class single far~s. In New South Wales the fare for 50 miles is 28., and in Victoria it is 5s. In New South Wales the fare for 100 miles is 7s. ld., and in Victoria it is lOs. In New South Wales the fare for 200 miles is l4s. 9d., and in Victoria it is 20s. In New South Wales the fare for 300 miles is 22s. rd., and in Victoria it is 29s. 8d. In New South Wales the fare fo'r 400 miles is 25s. 8d., and in Victoria it is 38s. 10d. In New South Wales the fare for 500 miles is 33s. 6d., and in Victoria it is 47s. 10d.
Mr. CARLISLE.-What is the fare for 5 miles Y
Mr. HOGAN.-The lowest journey given in the table is 50 miles.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-Is there a comparison of return fares ~
Mr. MACKINNON.-They don't issue return tickets in New South Wales.
Mr. MURRAy.-That blows the argument of the honorable member for Warrenheip kite high.
Mr. HOGAN.-No; it does not. A pomparison of single fares in New South Wales and Victoria is perfect.! y fair. There are any number of people in Victoria who take single t.ickets. I come now to freights. Does the Chief Secret.ary say that the Government give relJurn tickets in connexion with produce sent by rail ~
Mr. MURRAy.-I know the carriage of goods is much more satisfactory h~~ than it is in New South Wales, -w-here t1ie. producers ha,ve to wait six or eight weeks for trucks.
Mr. MENziEs.-Have you compared the cost of return journeys in New South Wales an.d in Victoria ~
Mr. HOGAN.-No; I am giving Mr. Knibbs' st,atistics.
Mr. MENZIEs.-They only relate to single fares, and are apt to be misleading.
Mr. HOGAN.-I merely read Mr. Knibbs' statistics, which speak for themselves. I read the first class single fares· and the second class single fares. The rates for agricultural produce in truckloads on the Government railways. in New South Wales and #' Victoria compare as· follows:- '
State.
Charge per ton in truck loads for a haul of
50 100 200 300 400 500 miles. miles. miles. miles. miles. miles.
------ ---------- --s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d.
New South Wales 5 0 7 6 9 6 10 6 11 4 12 0 Victoria. . . . 5 6 8 6 10 6 12 4 14 0 15 8
Those are the rates for agricultural produce with which the honorable memberfor Benalla and every other country member are so much concerned.
Mr. CARLISLE.-You have not the rates. for under 50 miles.
Mr. HOGAN.-Mr. Knibbs does not give them. Now I come to the ordinary goods mileage rates on Government railways, which compare as follows:-
HIGHEST CLASS FREIGHT:
Is. d·ls. d·1 s. d. \ s. d·le. d·ls. d. New South Wales.. 23 0 44 11 78 S 99 1107 6 115 I)
Victoria •• •. 21 3 42 0 79 6 108 9 ll)S 9 158 9-
LOWEST CLASS FREIGHT.
IS. d'l s. d·ls' d'l s. d·1 s. d·ls. d. New South Wales.. 2 6 S 7 6 8 7 9 9 10 11 11
Victor it' • • . . 4 3 6 8 10 0 11 10 13 6 15 2
One sees that the freights and fares are. higher in Victoria than in New South 'Vales, and particularly so for long-distance freights. . Mr. MURRAy.-Are those the present fares and freights ~
Mr. nOGAN.-They are the statistics for 1913.
Mr. MURRAy.-Are you aware that the rates have been raised since then ~
Mr. HOGAN.-I have- reason to believe that the fares have been increased in the metropolitan area, but not in the country districts.
Mr. MURRAy.-And the freights ~ Mr. HOGAN.-As far as I kno,w, the
freights have not been increased, and I have made inquiries. I desire now to quote from an article in the Ballarat Echo, of 15th December, in which a cogent comp~rison of the rate,s charged in Victoria and New South Wales is made.
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914.J Depa'l'tment. 475
Referring· to the proposed increases In Victoria, it is stated-
Of course it is extra taxation, and, of .course, it will not be light, for it affects practically every bite and sup that the people put into their mouths. It will be heavy on the consumers; it will fall with crushing effect on ihe producers. And this is a convenient time to have another "look at New South Wales." 'The New South Wales Government seems to have designed its system of freights in order to encourage the producer out-back. The Victorian Liberal system, on the .other 'hand, ,seems to have been designed for the purpose of extracting the uttermost in freightage from the producer out-back, and the farther back he has to go, owing to scarcity of land caused by Victorian Liberalism's kindly toleration of the lanel monopolist, the more crushingly the freightage burden falls on him. Thus, to haul ,goods, such as agricultural produce, manures, rabbit-proof netting, &c., over a journey of 500 miles, the Labour Government charges him lIs. lId. per ton. The Liberal Government's charge per ton is 15s. 2d., an increase of 3s. .3d. per ton, or 27 per cent.
Mr. DowNwARD.-The honorable member knows that no wire netting is sent 500 miles in Victoria.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Govllmrn) .-It would not be sent from Mildura to Bairnsdale.
1YIr. HOGAN.-Wire netting would not, but agricultural produce might. The article goes on to say-This amounts to very considerable taxation on the producer. While levying toll on the producer in this way, however, the Victorian Liberal Government also places another tax ()n him, in that it increases the cost of living. The freightage on groceries, furniture, &c., gives us an indication as to this. The article goes on to sta.te--and here the objection of the honorable member for Mornington is dealt with-J t may be objected that the comparison is an unfair one, since there are no railway lines -of 500 miles in length in Victoria. Of course it is possible to make journeys of that distance all the same; but still, for the purposes of comparison, we will take a journey of 300 miles. There are at least two lines in Victoria exceeding 300 miles in length-Melbourne to Merbein, 358 miles, and Melbourne to Murrayville, 357 miles. To send agricultural produce a distance of 300 miles, the New South Wales J.Jabour Government charges lOs. 6d. per ton.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburn).-Did tue Labour Government institute that charge ~ Did they not find it in operation when they took office 1
Mr. HOGAN.-I do not know; but what has that to do with it 1 I am comparing the railway freights in New South Wales and Victoria,. During the election campaign every member of the Liberal party kept saying to the electors, "Look
at New South Wales." I am now asking this Parliament to look at New South """ales, and compare the freights which the Labour Government charges and those which the Li~ral Government of Victoria charges.
Mr. DowNwARD.-We said, "Look at the 23,000 men on half-time."
Mr. HOGAN.-Which probably did not exist.
Mr. DOvYNWARD.-I am taking Mr. Holman's statement as reported.
Mr. HOGAN .-If the honorable member would produce that statement, and submit it, We will deal with it.
Mr. DOWNWARD.-In what wa.y will you deal with it, because I can very soon produce it ~
Mr. HOGAN.-We will put it to the crucial test, and ascertain whether Mr. Holman said so.
Mr. DmYNWARD.-Do you think the pa pers would misreport him 1
Mr. HOGAN.-I think that the papers in Victoria would do anything.
Mr. DOWNWARD.-It was in the Age. Mr. HOGAN.-However, I desire to
complete the quotation which I was making, and which is so disconcerting to hon-0rable members.
Mr. DowNwARD.-If the newspapers are so unreliable, why do yon rely on that Labour paper ~
Mr. HOGAN.-Because it is pure merino. It has stood the test of criticism and examination. The article goes on to say-Is it any wonder that Victorian farmers are leaving for New South Wales, where there is a Labour Government that does not bleed them white by means of taxation disguised under the name of freights? Whn.t is true of freights is also true of fares. The New South Wales first class single fare over a journey of 300 miles is 35s. 9d. The corresponding fare in Victoria is 44s. 6d., an increase of 88. 9d., or over 25 per cent. The second class single fare over the same distance is 22s. Id. in New South Wales, and 298. 8d. in Liberal Victoria, an increase of 7s. 7d., or over 34 per cent. And, on top of all this, the Peacock Government is going to increase fares and freights. Liberalism is indeed a heavy burden for the people of Victoria, and they may well be pardoned if, somewhat longingly, they "look at New South Wales."
One reason which appears to me to be an important one why the Government should not adopt the method of increasing the freights and fares as a means of raising additional revenue to square the ledger, is the fact that during the last seven years a large profit has been made
476 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
on the railways of Victoria - made, of Mr. HOGAN.-I do not think the Min-course, by means of the freights and fares ister heard what I said. which have been charged, and which were Mr. MACKINNON. - Oh, yes; I have palpably higher than was required to run heard it a hundred times before. the railway service. For the seven years Mr. HOGAN.-At any rate, I will ask from 1908 to 1914 the accrued surplus on my question again. Are the railways inthe Victorian railways was £1,031,594, tended to serve the requirements of the and if we deduct from that surplus the people, or are they designed eS a taxing estimated deficit for this year of £501,719, machine for the general purposes of the we find that for the eight years from 190<:; State ~ They are either one of two things. to 1915, including this bad year, there They should be used to serve the people is still a surplus on the Victorian rail- to convey the produce and to carry the
people from their homes to wherever they ways of £529,875. Now, seeing that this want to travel, but they should not be is a special tax which the people who use used specifically to raise revenue. They the railways have paid and are paying, should not be used as a taxing instrument. does not the Minister of Railways think It is clearly the intention of the Governit is unfair to increase the freights and ment to use them as a taxing instrument, fares, and by that means still further in- and I disagree with that entirely and crease thi~ special tax which has been absolutely. The special taxation imposed levied on the users of our railways? Dur- during the last seven y_ears on people ing the last seven years the Government llsing the railways amounts to over have charged the people £1,031,000 more £1,000,000. The Government have taken for the use of the railways than was neces- that money and spent it a.s ordinary resary. The Government made that profit. venue. No doubt they spent it legitiNow they will lose half-a-million this mately; but I do not think the railway year, still leaving an accrued surplus of surpluse~ should be used in this way. over half-a-million. This, as I have said, They should have been ear-marked in
. some way, so that, when a bad year ar-is essentially a special tax Imposed upon rived, the Government would be' able to the users of our railways over and above finance the railways and square the the cost of running them, over and abovo ledger without increasing the freights: and the interest, over and above every charge. fa.res. The fact. that t.his nrofit was made I repeat that there is an accrued surplus during the past seven y~a.rs should inof half-a-million for the present year and duce the Government to refrain from inthe preceding seven years taken together. creasing the freights and fares. That is Surely that should be sufficient for any the view that I take in regard to tHe Government, no matter how desirous they railways. They should be run to devemight be of penalizing production; nl) lop the country, and not to raise revenue matter how desirous they might be of in order to finance other State Departextorting money from the people who use ments which are not paying their way. I our railways. Yet on top of this fact the suppose the freights and fares will be inGovernment propose to increase this spe- creased principally in the country discial tax-to increase the freights and fares tricts. I want to remind the Minister so that they shall get more revenue for of Railways of a promise he made to me
. f h'l in February last in connexion with work-general pUlposes ~om t e r.aI way ser- men's fares in the country. On the 12th vi~e. N~w, what IS ~he obJect ~f o~r " February last I called attention in this raI~ways. Ar~ the raIl~ays of V~ctorla Chamber to an anomaly that exists deSIgned to ~ssIst.productIon, to assI~t the through the refusal of the Railways Compeople of VlCtor:.a, or are they deSIgned missioners to issue workmen's tickets in a~ a taxation measure, as ~ fiel.d f~r t~xa- the country districts, and "the reply that tIon - as a revenue-earnmg InstItutIOn? the Minister made given in Hansard ~pparently: ~t is not m~:lCh use my ask- page 4063, 12th February last, was:- ' mg the MInIster of RaIlways any ques- With regard to the point raised by the honortions I do not suppose he will take any able member for Warrenheip, I may say that
t" of them or answer them. the Comm.issioners have considered ~t, and are no Ice endeavourmg to make some conceSSIOn. They
Mr. MACKINNON. - I will later on. I tell me that they will do something. am not here to be interrogated just at Has the Minister forgotten that 1 I suppresent. pose he has. If not, is it still being COD
Mr. dogan.
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Depa1'tment.
sidered, and do the Commissioners intend to do something 1 Is the privilege accorded to the workmen in the metropolis to be accorded to those in the country districts ~ When I spoke 011 this matter in February last, I cited the case of some men working at the quarries at Lethbridge. The Department l'efused to issue workmen's tickets to them, an_d they had either t.o take out second class return tickets or monthly tickets that would cost considerahly mOore th~n the workmen's fares in the metropolis ~or the same distance. The Minister must know that this is an unfair anomaly. It· is unfair that men using the railways should be able to use them at a lower rate in one part of the country than in another, and particularly in the case of workmen. In the metro.polis you can get a workman's ticket for a journey of 5 miles for 4d. daily, or 1s. 9d. a week. For,p, distance of 9 miles from Melbourne the cost of a workman's ticket is 6d. daily, 2s. 4d. weekly, and 9s. 4d. monthly. In the country workmen's tickets for 9 miles a:r:e not obtainable; they can only get an ordlnary second class return ticket, which will cost Is. 6d. a day, or 9s. a week, against 25. 4d. a week for a similar distance in town.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburn)-That argument applies to the Melbourne suburban fares.
Mr. HOGAN.-Yes. I hold that any man who desires to travel, whether in the country or the metropolis, should be charged the same fare for the same distance. Anyhow, there is ~o justification for charging 9s. a week for 9 miles in the country as against 2s. 4d. for the same distance in the metropolis. The Minister promised that he would ask the Commissioners to consider this matter, and that he would give some consideration to workmen in the country who desire to have these tickets issued to them. I hope he will endeavour to rectify this ,striking anomaly, which is over and above the anomalies I have already brought before the House in connexion with the comparison of freights and 'fares between Victoria and New South 'Vales. Vle have anomalies in our own State. In the coun-
. try districts you have to pay twice as much in many cases for travelling as in the metropolis. I quoted one case on a previous occasion. From Ballan to Ballarat, a distance of 24 miles, a second ~lass return ticket costs 4s. Compare that
with the suburban fare from Narre Warren to Melbourne, a distance of 24~ miles, which costs 2s. 6d. second class return. The country fare from Gordon to Ballarat, a distance of 17 miles, is 2s. lOd., second class return, whereas from Dandenong to Melbourne, a distance of 18! miles, the suburban fare is Is. 5d., or half the price. Such anomalies are not justified in a railway system that is owned just as much by the country as the metropolitan people. A Go.vernment that will inflict such injustice Lis not dealing fairly with the people. The time has come when sur.:h anomalies should be rectified. Tlie Government should not allow people to travel in the city for half the fare charged to those in the country. If they are going to, continue to. do so, then they ought to pull down their flag, for they are certainly not the country Ministry that they pretend to be.
Mr. ROUGET .-As I am a man of but fe'w words, my remarks on this question will be brief, although it is a very important question. The railway freights bear an important part in the development of the country. I am sure that is an axiom acceptable to every hono.rable member. The country cannot be developed unless we have a railway system that works in harmony with it. We have, indeed, a very fine railway system, which can do very much to promote country development. Without encouragement, it is impossible for our country industries to be a success. I hope the Railways Commissioners will realize that the railway system is an important factor in the development of the country. I am very much opposed to any increase in the freights on country produce. It is a ma.ttel' that vitally affects every district in the State, and I am quite satisfied that, if t··ny increase is made in the freights. it will have a detrimental e·ffect on country interests. It is an utter impossibility, as honorable members know, for the country producer to pass this on to anyone. He has to pay the increased cost of getting his produce to the market or the seaboard, and it is utterly impossible for him to pass the charge on to the consumer under the present economic system, and there has been no proposition to remedy it. At any rate, a remedy has not been proposed during the last few thousand years of the world's history. That being so, we ought to approach the question or
478 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Depart1f"ent. '
raising freights on produce very cautiously, and the increase should not be made unless it is absolutely impossible to raise the required revenue in any other way, because it will retard the develop·· ment of the country, and the development of the country and the development of the city are allied. We want the city as a market, and we want the country for the purpose of growing produce and of supplying the needs of the local market. Therefore, in considering this question we should consider the requirements of the country and the city, the one dovetailing into the other. In regard to the question of fares, I want to draw the attention of the Minister to the anomaly which exists in regard to the fares charged in the country districts, as against those charged in the suburban radius. The principle is this: A certain radius has been established around the city of Melbourne. The moment you pass out of that you have to pay at a higher rate. I have drawn the attention of the Commissioners to this before. They say there is no remedy. I say there is a remedy, and the remedy is this: You have a fare from Melbourne to say, Narre Warren, and from N arre Warren to another place along that line, be it to the further extremity. The remedy, in my mind, is the addition of these two fares, which should make the through fare. But that is not done, and the country people who pass through that suburban area and assist in making that suburban area do not receiye an advantage in that particular way. A person travelling from Melbourne to Warburton, and sitting alongside a passenger going from Melbourne to Lilydale, will pay Is. more for practically the same journey. That is an anomaly which affects every country district. To roy mind, country development and decentralization should be taken in hand at once, and the country traveller should receive the advantage of the cheap suburban fare which he, of course, helps to make possible. That is one matter.
. We who represent the country interests must conserve these interests to the best of our ability, and assist in carrying out the decentralization policy of the Government, because it is impossible on any other lines, and I am sure honorable members will recognise that. Another thing
. we require in the country to bring about decentralization and to popularize the
Mr. Rou,get.
country is a faster train service. Representations have been made time and again to the Oommissioners in regard to faster train services, but very little has been attempted in that respec't. I might mention my own district as an instance. It takes 2 hours 17 minutes to go 31 miles from Melbourne. That is ridiculous and absurd, and that sort of thing is going to retard the progress of the district, which is practically a suburb of Melbourne. The ¥inister will recog;niso that that is not a fair proposition, because it is ret~rding the advancement of that district very materially, although the district is really at Melbourne's back door. There is another thing I would draw attention to, and that is the loss Gf goodd on our railways.' I think it is really appalling the quantity of goods continually beiug lost upon our railways. You go to the sales every six months, and you see numbers of articles there offered for sale that belong to somebody. I say that the owners of those articles could be traced. I know of people who have been inquiring at stations for these things while the articles were in the lost property office. I can give an instance of this which will bring the matter vividly to the mind of the Minister and the Commissioners. I know a man who is married in Tylden. The marriage presents were put up in a box and 86nt there, with an address in three different places. That parcel did not l'each its destination. The man commenced to make inquiries, and could obtain no information in .regard to the parcel. As I had had considerable business with the Oommissioners, I advised him to communicate with them, which he did, and it was only then that he discovered that the parcel was in the lost prope.r,ty office, addressed distinctly in three places. Why was not that parcel sent to the individual to whom it was consigned? This question ought to be answered by the Department. The public have had to put up with this for a considerable time, and it should now be seen that the losses and thefts on the railways are reduced to a minimum. We may not be able to reduce that sort of thing out of sight altogether, but surely, with the officers and detectives there are in the
. Department, that kind of thing could ~e brought down to a minimu~, with a great saving of inconvenience and annoyance' to
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Department. 479
customers. I want also to urge upon the ~Enister the speedy completion of the Lilydale railway station. This. matter haa been in hand for months and months, and the public have been put to a great deal of inconvenience by the non-completion I)f that station. The Department wisely decided to build a new station, and until it is completed the people are being put to great inconvenience. Temporary steps have been constructed to enable people to get over the line into the station. Nearly twelve months ago the Department commenced the construction of a ramp, and it is not yet completed, and old persons and people with children in their arms are put to great inconvenience in having to climb steps every time they go into the station. I want the Minister to urge the Department to push on with that work and complete the station with all possible speed. Lilydale is an impOliant ,place, being a junction station, and there is a tremendous amount of traffic. I have made these general observations because I think it is of the utmost importance that we should give consideration to these matters while the Estimates are under consideration, and record our disapproval of some of the ways in which the business of the railways is being carried on. I have yet to learn that a system cannot be brought into vogue which will give more satisfaction. We should have a speedier service, and a service which would' tend to develop the country on sounder lines.
Mr. ANGUB.-I must also enter my protest against any increase in freights and" fares, particularly in view of the statement by the 1\!(inister of Railv;mys published in the A[/e to the effect that the suburban fares could not be lll
creased. :Mr. MAcKINNoN.-There was no autho
rity whatever for that statement. Mr. ANGUS.-I am pleased to know
that the honorable gentleman is able to deny it.
1\1:1'. MAcKINNoN.-What I did say, in the course of conversation, was that it was very difficult to arrange certain fares, on account of tramway competition.
Mr. ANGUS.-I have almost come to the conclusion that it would be wise for the Government to take in hand the electrification of the tramway system, so ·that it would not run. in opposition to the sub-
urban railway system. I believe the time is coming when we will have to give that question serious consideration. The city should bear its fair share of taxation. I spoke very plainly when I first stood for Parliament three years ago on this indirect ta.xation in connexion with the railways. It is almost a direct tax on those· people who live a long distance from Melbourne, and particularly those north of the Dividing Range. In those cases the haulage is from 70 to 200 miles-:-in some cases it is even 300 miles--ana the increase must necessarily fall more heavily on those people than on the people nearer the metropolis. I protest against an increase in freight particularly in a season like this. There was a time, a few years ago, when, had we not raised the wa.ges of the employes, we would have had a surplus of about £500,000 on the railways, and most of that money was contributed by the country. Why should the . country people, who have contributed so much in the past, have to pay a special tax now ~ I would ask the Minister to seriously consider the matter, and to see if . the proposed increases cannot be a voided. I would like him to see if some other means of raising the money required could not be adopted, so as to protect the farmers as much as possible.
Mr. A. GRAY (Korong).-As the Government are desirous of assisting in every way the primary producer, I feel that some provision should be made in the Estimates for the carriage of fertilizers at reduced rates. We know perfectly well that the handicap incidental to the cartage of manure is pretty great on the farmers. away back in the north of the State. There is another matter I 'Would have liked some provision to be made for and that is with regard to the return or' seed ~vheat to the country from depots where It has been stored in Melbourne. I have in my mind a stack of wheat which the owner is desirous of having returned to his land for the purpose of supplying himself and his neighbours with seed wheat. The cost of returning that wheat from J\/[elbourne to the country would be greater than the cost of bri.nging the wheat to Melbourne. It has been in storaO'e
• 0 SlllOO last harvest, and the storage charges amount to £6. The cartage down cost £6, and the owner says it will cost another £6 to take the wheat back. I would li~e to know if some concession. could not be made in the case of persons
is!) Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
who are' desirous of having their own seed wheat returned to the land where it was grown. As far as the increase of freights and fares is concerned, I quit~ recognise the difficulty the Government are in. I am one of those who say the railways should be worked on sound, financial principles, and we cannot afford to give away too much; but still I think it would be in the interests of the Department and the State if concessions \\ere made in the directions I have indicated.
Mr. M. K. 1I1cKENZIE (Upper Go'ullJllrn).-In regard to the arguments used hy the honorable member for \Van'enheip as to h~gher freights and fares being eharged in Victoria than in New South \Vales, I would point out that the honor.able member has forgotten one or two very important factors. In Victoria the ·distances are shorter, and the cost of handling and ha:ulage are greater than in New South Wales, where there are long .distances. Another thing is that, in New South Wales, it is very necessary that the lowest possible freights should be charged over long distances, because, otherwIse, people would not settle on the land. The people would not go far back. That applies to the northern lines. In regard to the southern lines, there is a very important factor, and that is that if there were not low freights in New South Wales, the producers would send their produce to the Victorian market. Consequently, the New South \Vales Government had to adopt very low freights.
Mr. HOGAN.-The freights in New South "Vales are cheaper even for the short distances.
Mr. 1\1. K. :McKENZIE (U1)per Goulbl1l'l~) .-If they have very low freights for long distances, they cannot have very high freights for short distances. This matter was discussed thoroughly a good many years ago. The Country party took an active int-erest in the matter, and obtained a reduction of £75,000 in freights. The freights charged in Victoria and in New South 'Vales were then discussed.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Pitz7'OY) .-What was the reduction?
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Gomb'urn).-About £75,000. That was about fifteen years ago.
Mr. HOGAN.-They have been reduced about £400,000 in the last four years.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburn).-I am speaking of what happened
about fifteen years ago. '1'he conditions in New South \Vales and Victoria are not the same, ~lld, t11eretore, in cOlnparing the freights charged in the two States, you are comparing things which are not equa.!. Different principles have to guide the Governments of New South Wales and Victoria in regard to this mat_tel'. Coming to the question of \\""hether freights and fares should be raised, I would point out, in common with other country members, that it is beginning to be felt by people in the country generally that it is. not fair- that they should have to carry the burden of the loss on the suburba::t lines. The wages of the railway employes ~ were raised last year. It was estimated that the additional cost would be £81,000 or £82,000. I think it actually amounted to £90,000. From what portion of the users of the railways did that money come 1 It came from the producers in the country. It did not come from the suburban traffic at all, because the suburban
. traffic is worked at a loss. The whole of the increased wages had to be made up by the producers and the people in the country districts. Weare beginning to get a little bit tired of this kind of thing. We hear the old argument used that su burban farea cannot be increased on account. of the competition of the trams, and we are beginning to think that that can be dealt with. As the honorable member for Gunbo\\""er has suggested, if there is no other way of dealing with the matter, the Government should take into serious consideration the question of nationalizing the trams.
Mr. HOGAN.-If country members will agree to that, we will soon make the Government do it.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburn) .-They should take into very serious consideration the question of deal-ing with this competition. Of course there is the further competition-the motor omnibus competition. It is becoming very serious.
.Mr. KEAsT.-We will soon stop that. Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upp~r GOl.ll
b'Zf,rn).-The number of motor buses is increasing very rapidly, and the question arises as to whether you can legitimately and prope~ly interfere with the liberty of the subject with regard to a, business of that sort. Howevel", it is a very large question, and one that cannot be got over by simply passing it by. It has to ?e faced by the Government, and I am qUIte
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914·1 Department. 481'
certain that the people in the country are feeling that they are being imposed on. They are not prepared to accept this increase in the fares in count.ry districts without a corresponding increase in the cit,y. The Minister has just denied that he stat.ed that fares could not be increased in the city on account of the competition with the trams. He has explained that all he said was that in some instances they could not be increased.
Mr. MACKIN~ON.-That there would be a difficulty in increasing them.
Mr. M. K. lYIcKENZIE (Upper Goulbll'rn).--No doubtj but there is the difficulty of the people in the country having to pay for the losses in the city and having the burden on them increased, whilst the city users of the railways enjoy the privileges which the people in the country have to pay for. I am I;lot prepared to agree to an increase of fares in the country without a corresponding increase in the fares in the city, unless absolutely conclusive proof is given that an increase in the city could not be adopted because of the competition of the trams.
Mr. HOGAN.-\Vhen there was a profit of over £1,000,000 during the last seven years, why should there be an increase at alU
Mr. 1\'1. K. McKENZIE (Upper GoulbUl'n).--That is a larger question. I think, in the first speech I made on my return to the House, I &aid that no Government should lean on a railway surplus. However, this is not a year in which we should bring that question up. The Government are certainly not called npon to adopt heroic measures at a time like this. They are not called upon to depart from the practice followed by their predecessors in good times. They have a perfect right to use any railway surplus if there is ally, which does not seem likely, under t.he conditions likely to exist during the coming year. Apart from that, I think that the increased pay for the railway men has all fallen on the country producers, and 110W they are to pay for the continuat.ion of low fares in the suburbs, and also have their own fares increased. \Vell, I think it would be going jur,t a little too far. Therefore, I hope that the Government will reconsider the matter.
Mr. CARLISLE.-rt appears to me t.hat the difficulties are such that the Commissioners would probably elect not to increase fares in the metropolitan area.
The competition of the tramways does· riot extend 50 miles from the city, but the· cheaper ticket-s taper out to that distance. Anyone within a radius of 50 miles of the city can ge,t a yearly or a season ticket at. a cheaper rate than a man living further away. That cannot be accounted for by the fear of competition from the trams. Of course; Close to the city the competition. of the trams has to be taken into· account. I think there is no doubt that the Government. will have to nationalize the trams. It would be a serious mistake to enable the p:nmicipalities to take over the tramways, and compete with the St'ate railways. The suburban railways must be made to pay their share of the expenditure, and I do not think it can be said that they are doing that now. I feel sure country members would support a movement in that direction.
Mr. HOGAN.-Even if the Labour party proposed it 1
Mr. CARLISLE.-Possibly not, if theLabour party made it an excuse for turning out the Government. B:owever, I wish to enter my protest against the increase of freights and fares in country districts. I would point out that the whole of the reduction in train servic.es has been in the country. Alt.hough that may result in· some saving, I suppose that saving 'will not be equivalent to the inconvenience caused. It is 'Iuite unrrasonable to expect that.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-How are you 01: free railways ~
Mr. CARLISLE.-I do think that a proposition for free railways, and defraying the costs by a land tax, would not commend itself to my ideas at all. The best way to meet the expenditure on the railways is by a system of freights and fares. I strongly object to the whole of the cost being put on the country.
Mr. J. \V. BILLSON (P,itZ7·oy).-The railway problems with which we are confronted are very intricate and difficult, and the Government are now in a rather awkward po,sition. They have declare.d their intention of raising freights and fares, and, at t,he same time, their supporters are protest,ing against it. More than that, although we have a deficiency, nearly every honorable member has got up and asked for concessions. One honorable member wants seed wheat to be carried free, or next door to it. Every effort is made to reduce the income. At the same time, they object to any'
482 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
increase in freights and fares. Then the service is not really required-the 8erold question of whether the suburban vice must be maintained whether there is traffic pays has been brought under con- sufficient business or not. sideration. We had a report .from Sir Mr. PENNINGTON.-It is the same with Thomas Tait, the ex-Chairman of Rail- the city. ways Commissioners, declaring that the Mr .. J. W. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-In suburban traffic did not pay. The members of this House were not satisfied with that, my opinion, you should reduce the ser-Itnd the Government instituted an inde- vice whether in the country or the town pendent inquiry, which demonstrated when it is no longer necessary. You that some of the capital had been left should increase the service where you have
t f th . It h I goods and passengers to carry that neces-au 0 e computatIOn a ·oget er. t sitate the increase. But I do not think was declared that, when properly com- . puted, the suburban traffic was a paying honorable members are justified in asking proposition. Honorable members on the for the retention of services when the Ministerial side of the House quite ignore need no longer exists, and yet this is done the fact that that inquiry was held at all, every day. However, I rose princiand still adhere to the original statement pally to refer to one or two promises that the suburban railway system does not which were made by the Government durpay. Instead of making that bare state- ing the last session of Parliament, and ment, I wish they would get hold of the which have not been honoured. It is Board's report, and show us where the pretty difficult to ask for a reduction of mistake was made, and how it is that the the hours of work or an increase in wages suburban traffic does not pay. It is easy in the Railway Department or for any enough for them to do that if they are other concessions at this particular time. n·ot. satisfied with the report as presented At the s~me time, when promises. a~e to the House. Anyway I am satisfied made, whICh ought to be honoured, It IS that there are some pr~blems that you just as well that we should mention the cannot solve. Some honorable members' matter during this debate, lest it 00 foron the· Ministerial side of the House are gotten that they were ever made. Durendeavouring to get uniform rates for ing the last election, members on the both city and country lines. Whether other side of the Chamber-I won't menthe railways are owned nation~lly, or whe- tion any names-declared that they were ther by a private company, it is impos- in favour of 8s. per day minimum in our sible to get uniform rates if they are to railway service. We understood that the be dealt with on commercial lines. Nearly Government were going to initiate the -every large centre recognises the fact that 8s. minimum, and yet a large number of where the trains run every fe·w minutes, men are still on the 7s. 6d. minimumand .are very crowded, the traffic ~ust be I refer to permanent labourers and ·carned very .cheaply. Indeed, It pays others, including porters for the first six them to carry It cheaply. Compare that con- months. Th6iY only receive 7s. 6d. per dition of things with some of the country day. I understood that the~ men were trains, with scarcely a passenger in them, to get 8s., and I hope the Minister will and with very little traffic being done. make a note of the matter. It will not Still, the whole of the expense of run- affect a great number of men, and in ning those trains is being borne. If the view of the fact that many members on Railways Commissioners' desire to study the other side of the House gave promises economy and prevent the raisin,g of on this subject, perhaps we may be able freights and fares by running only the to get those promises given effect to. number of trains that are absolutely While I would like to see the railways necessary to ca.rry the passengers and pay, I would only like to see them pay goods from a particular station-in other with the men employed having reasonable words, if the reduced traffic will do all conditions of labour and reasonable paytheir business, and they propose to re- ment. The claim of 9s. for casual duce the number of trains-deputations labourers was discussed during last are immediately got together to protest. session, but nothing has been done to inaga.inst any alteration. The Railways crease the wages of these men. They lose 'Commissioners are told that they must time in wet weather, there are frequent not make the railways pay, if paying and lengthy breaks in their employment, means that they will reduce the service and they should, at least, be paid 88. 6d., to a parliicular district, although that which is received by the ordinary line
M·r .• J. W. Billson. .
[22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Departrnent. 483
repairers. That is the request which they make, and I am of opinion that it is a yery reasonable one. Then there is trouble in connexion with what are known as C C terminating tickets." .The Minister will recollect that we had a long discussion last session with re,gard to the camping-out question and the allowances given to these men. ·The Premier joined in that discussion, and did much to help in granting the concession asked for. That concession, however, has been defeated, in this way-The allowance under the present system is not paid to the men at their first place of employment, consequently, it is a common practice for a man to be employed at one place, say, Colac, and he receives one of these terminating tickets. Subsequently, he is employed for a week or two in another place, but he is there treated as a new employe who is at his first place of employment. This is clearly an evasion of the promise which was given to us. The camping-out allowance was granted because these men have to keep two homes, but it was 'not considered by the Commissioners that they should be paid at their first place of employment, but only on their second removal from that place. This does not appear to me'to be right. At any rate, the Commissioners escape the payment by what t.hey call the C C terminating ticket" system. This is a matter which should be looked into and remedied. \Vhat is being done is not what we asked the Government for in the first place. nor what they promised to these men. Again, there is a feeling amongst the men that increments are not to be paid. I would like to know whether increments are being paid this year to the lower-paid men 1
Mr. ·MACKINNoN.-That is provided for in the Estimates.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Fiizl'oy).-They are to be paid as hitherto 1
Mr. MACKINNON .-1 believe so.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (FitztJ'oy).-I know that increments are' to be paid to some of the higher-paid officers, and some of the men have been very anxious because they unde~stood that while the higher-paid staff were to be paid increments, the lower-paid men were not to receive them.
Mr. MACK~NNoN.-They have been already paid up to date, and will continue to be paid.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (Ftitzroy).-I am very pleased to hear it. There is one other matter I desire to refer to, and that is in connexion with the promise which the Government made during the election to restore to public servants and railway servants equal political and civic rights with the rest of the population. I have always been of opinion that we ought not to treat our public serva'nts, including our railway servaz:tts, in any different w~y from that in whlCh men are treated III
private employment. Railway servants are expected to render good service for the money they reoeive, and, having done that, I think they should be in the same po~ition with regard to the State as they would be if the railways were owned by a large cOIllpany. That is to say, they should not divulge the ordin?,r)T business of their employers, but, havmg rendered good service during the day, their employers should no~ be able. ~o restrict their ordinary dutIes .as Cl~lzens, after hours. This is recogmsed m the Commonwealth Government, and no harm comes of it there. We have been askin,g for it in the State for years, and during the last election the Premier, in his policy speech, I believe, declared his intent~on of restoring these rights, after opposmg the Labour party for many years in their e~deavour to secure this. I want to get a promise, if I can, from the Governmeut as to when this restoration will take· place. Is it possible to get a .promise. from the Ministry that these :lghts wIll. be restored in t.he next seSSIon of Parhament 1 I put a question on the notice-paper, and the Premier stated that he could not deal with the matter this session. We know, of course, that this session is a very short session, but I would like to have sornethina definite stated as to when the Govern~ent intend to give effect to the promise made by the Pre~nier. I think it. is a reasonable thing to ask the Government to state definitely when they intend t.o bri~g in a Bill restoring to· the public servants and the railway servants the rLghts which. were taken from them some lYears ago. That restriction 11as never done any good, while it has caused a lot of friction in the various Departments. It was said in connexion with some of the Departments that there would be trou bIe if these restrictions did not exist; but to· take only one Department, the Postal Department.--it is well known that when the Federal Government took over that
484 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
Department they removed these restrictions, and nothing has happened in consequence, except that the men are more contented, and better pleased because they are not. ostracised from the rest of the community, but exercise their rights equally with the remainder of the population. There is a growing feeling that a lot of the trouble with the Railway Department would be obviated if the unions were acknowledged by the Commissioners. I know the reply of the Commissioners will be that they do acknowledge them, but that they will not acknowledge men outside the service. If I were employed' in the service, and were secre,tary of a union, I might interview the officers on behalf of the union. If the- work got too heavy, and I had to give up my position in the Railway Department, and devote all my time to working for the union, I would not be able personally to present any case to the Commissioners. I would have to ~o it indirectly through some one engaged In the Department. I hold that this is wrong. trhe idea of individualism is gradually fading away in this l't!speqti. Unionism, combination, organization, and bargaining co-operatively and unionistically are being recognised by all firms in large undertakings. It would be a great advantage to the Commissioners, and would help the men materially, if their own officers, after investigating disputes, were able to place them before the Commissioners, instead of doing so indirectly through some person who does not under.stand them. I do not wish to say a word against any of the Commissioners, because my relations with them have always been of the pleasantest character. \Vhilst a man has the power of dismissing another, the man liable to be dismissed or punished for any offence is not quite free in representing grievances. He acts more or less under the duress of his employers. In private employment this has been accepted to an alarming extent. Ther~ is .always a fear that the applications made by these men have not the same effect as they would have if the men were quite indopendent. This collective bargaining ought ~o be acknowledged by the Commissioners. In our Federal Departments, and in some of' the other States, this is permitted, and no harm, but much good, results. Suppose a man makes a personal ·complaint of a grievance. The union in-vestigate it, and sometimes they dismiss it as unworthy of consideration. While
Mr. J. W. Billson.
the men will not go to the Commissioners and say that a certain thing h~ppened when Jones was drunk, they have not the. slightest compunction about going with J ones to the union officials and telling him that they cannot go on with his case. So the matter ends there. Where individual grievances are presented as at present, they are presented very often without such an investigation as would take place if the unions were permitted to be sure that there was good ground for making the complaint. This concession would not hurt the Commissioners in their power over the employes, and it would result in· a much pleasanter and happier relationsl~ip between the management and the serVIce.
1\11'. MACKINNON (Minister of Railways).-Most of the criticism concerning the Railway Department has turned on the question of freights and fares. Honorable members, especially those representing country districts, are very anxious to know what the effect of the proposal of the Government will be, and they anticipate that it will be disastrous, or at any rate a burden, and they naturally protest against it. I can. understand that attitude. The honorable member for Warrenheip sought to put a conundrum to me. He wanted to know whether the railways were for the service of the people or to be used as a taxing machine. They are not rega.rded as a taxing machine; but the Commissioners are told to carry them on so as to make them more or less payable. That is what I understand they are trying to do. The idea is that the increased freights and fares should come illt~ operation on the 1st July next year. r:::'here are several reasons for the proposal. One reason is that, unless there is some adjustment, there will be continued loss. It is very easy to say that they should not be increased, and it is easy for the honorable member for Dandenong to say that we should stimulate production, so that there would be enough freight to make the railways profitable. You cannot do that in an adverse season. It is possible that before the 1st July next the railways will have improved their position so much that it may not be necessary to make increases. . Mr. HOGAN .-In a normal season they pay.
Mr. MACKINNON.-That is so. The areat loss at present is on goods. The ~oods traffic has fallen away in. the most
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Department. 485
remarkable manner, and the passenger traffic also to some extent. It is due to the feeling in the country that there is a bad time ahead. The recent rains may make a great difference in the attitude of the prod ucers. We cannot expect any great recovery in the freight until towards the end of next year. The honorable member for Dandenong, as I have said, suggests the stimulation of production, but that is a process that takes some time. It is much easier to demonstrate to other people than to carry out oneself. It is easy for Sir Thomas Tait to say that there should be production on certa-in land. The owners of the land will cultivate it if they find it advantageous. He has suggested that country which is not -capable of producing wheat is oat country, and that the farmers should go in for raising oats. \Ve know very well that, -except about Melbourne and Geelong, the raising of oats has not been a payable concern. It is only in a year like this that the man who is engaged in that form of cultivation has a chance of getting his own back. The State has to make up the 10ss in some way or other. Will it be taken in the form of increased freights and fares, or in the form of an increase in the land tax ~ The Commissioners are willing to -carryon at a loss if the Government will find the money fo provide for the deficit. -There is no escape from the position. Wa are in a dilemma. We should certainly set a part a fund in the good years-ap. equalizing dividend fund-to meet bad years. That is a sound doctrine.' The 'Chief Secretary suggests something about the Government being allowed to make a profit. You cannot help making a profit sometimes. When it comes along, it would be very much better t.o set apart for the equalization of work· ing expenses. We have not done that. Every Treasurer knows how difficult it is to keep a fund of that sort, and we know how many of us cast eyes on such an accumulation and say that the Government are not getting the same interest on that fund as they are paying on money borrowed for public works.
Mr. HOGAN.-The more a man works his land, the more he produces, and the more he will have to pay.
1\1.r. MACKINNON.-It. is like a welladjusted saddle-cloth, which keeps the pressure off his sores at a time when he need.s it. It has always seemed to me that it has this advant.ag~that, so far
as the employes are concerned, they are assured of constant employment without any threat of reduction in their remuneration, which, I think, is an undesirable thing in connexion with any public employment. I do hope that it will not be neoe-ssary to increase these freights and fares, because I recognise, as everybody must, that the cheaper the freights, the more you stimulate production, because there is more encouragement for the person who is just on a margin of profit to use his land for the purpose of producing that profit. The thing really pays itself in that way,
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Go'UlbU1·n).-The honorable gentleman has not referred to the suggestion to put the same proportionate increase on suburban fares.
Mr. MACKINNON.-I was going to refer to that. I know that the honorable member is the champion of the idea that the suburban traffic is carried on at a tremendous loss. The honorable member for Fitzroy pointed out that that was an extremely questionable statement, and one, in fact, which has been exploded by an inquiry which was instituted by the Government. I have made it my business to inquire from time to time as to the suburban traffic, and I gather from the Railways Commissioners that the suburban traffic is a very profitable part of their business. It is obvious, if the fares in the town are anything like reasonable fares compared with the fares in similar centres in oiher places, that, from the nature of the business, there must be a pretty good profit in it. The honorable member for Gunbower, I think, said that I had made a statement in the press that the town fares could not be increased. I made no such statement. \Vhat I did say casually, not for publication, was that there was a great difficulty in increasing fares in the town on account of the competition with the outside concerns which were performing similar services for the people. That is a matter which one honorable member, with Conservative ~ndencies~ got over by proposing to nationalize all these competing means of conveyance. That would be one way out of the difficulty, and a way which, as Minister of Railways, I would rather favour. I should like to see tbat competition reduced, but I am not sure that that proposal would be altogether popular amongst the great number of people who have the benefit of that form of traffio at
4S6 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
present. The aim of the CDmmissiDners will be to lay the burden equally on all parts of the State, bu~ you cannot get away from the fact that by getting equality you would throwaway business, and let some one else get it. The whole relationship of the public towards fares and freights, the time-t,able, and all these things, is sO' complicated that it is -extremely difficult to work out any system of charges which can be logically defensible. As to the honorable· member for Port Fairy, I dO' not know wny he should anticipate any great trouble. He is from one of those localities where there is competition against the railways. He and the honorable member for Gippsland East need not be apprehensive about the possibility of these fares crushing their districts. However, that is my view generally in regard to raising freights and fares. I hDpe it will not be necessary to raise them to' any extent, and I fully recognise that, if it can possibly be avoided, we should not do it, because it is an extremely undesirable thing to do. In regard to the speeding up of trains, the demand for that is an illustration of what the honorable member for Fitzroy pointed out and that is that honorable members want to' increase expenditure and diminish cost,. That is an extremely difficult thing to do with any concern, or, at any rate, with a concern of a semi-commercial lnture.
Mr. RouGET.-There is the matter of Sewing the time lost in stO'ppages.
l\1r. J\lIACKINNON.-That is all very well, but there are not many lines where you could economize in that way: The honorable member for Port Fairy gave as an illustration a line which has recently been laid wit.h SO-lb. rails, and on whicl. it is possible to run faster trains. He suggested that one stoppage at Camperdown could be got over by running a dining car. The pulling of the heavy dining car means an increased strength of the engine, and that runs intO' considerable expense, and would not be a negligible item on that particular line. With regard to t.he point raised by the honorable membe·r for Port Fairy as to the want of facilities for the Wimmera people to get to Port Fairy, all that I can say is that, when the Cavendish to Toolondo railway connexion is completed, there may be better opportunities for people to get down to the beautiful district which he so well represents. As to
the :ijgures on which the honorable member for Warrenheip relies so much, we are in trouble at once in regard to return tickets, because we know they are issued at a considerable reduction on double single fares. In Ne·w South Wales they are charging a full single fare both ways. I am also told that the figures are incorrect. A statement is being prepared to show that Mr. Knibbs' figures are incorrect, and will not st,and analysiS!. The statement is not yet completed, but I am told that the figures shown are not strictly accurate.
Mr. HOGAN.-That is unusual. We will accept the figures as correct until they are disproved.
Mr. MACKINNON .-1 will let the honorable member see the .figures when they have been got out. I r~member the honorable member raising the question about workmen's tickets in the early part of this year, and I brought the matter under the notice of the Commissioners. \Vhat I understood from them was that they were prepared to give the same concessions in the country to workers as were allowed to the workers in Melbourne. As a matter of fact, they do give concessions to miners. I understood from the Commissioners that the honorable member wa.s unable to produce any trains on which the system would work. That is to say, he could not instance cases where men in the country could travel to work in the morning by train and return in the evening.
~1r. HOGAN.-That is not correct. They never communicated with me at all.
l\1:r. MACKINNON.-I will give the honorable member this assurance: If he can show cases in the country where the system that applies in the metropolis can be worked, the Commissioners will be prepared to meet him.
Mr. HOGAN.-The case I put to the House was that some men lived at Mer<'dith and worked at Lethbridge. The trains suited them, but the fares did not.
Mr. l\1ACKINNON.-I think, if the honorable member will submit that case to the Commissioners, it will be very favorably considered. Of course, there are not a great many workers in the country who travel by train.
Mr. HOG~N.-Wherever the existing train service will suit them, I think you should give them this concession.
Mr. MACKINNON.-The honorable member will find tha.t in the country a.
Railway [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 DepOlrt1nent. 487
similar concession will be. given to that which is given in town.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper· Govlburn).-Will that be on the basis of the
.suburban charge 1 Mr. HOGAN .-On the basis of the
workers' tickets. . Mr. M. K. MCKENZIE (Upper Goul
burn) (to Mr . Mackinnon) .-You will have to extend the principle to all classes in the country.
Mr. l\1ACKINNON.-No. There is a distinction drawn in town between what are known as workers and what are known . as ordinary passengers. With regard to the radius case which the honorable member for Evelyn has raised that is one of -the things that puzzles ~nybody, and I am not at all surprised at his being puzzled about it. The simple truth is this: To adjust the rates charged to the persons who travel from outside to inside in the same way, and to charge them on the sa:J?e basis, would mean making a concessIOn of £70,000 a year. People who live in districts pretty close to Melbourne, but outside the suburban radius are entitled to claim that they are being heavily charged. However, a line must be drawn -somewhere. The fares seem to fall heavily on particular districts; but if the Commissioners were to make the concession to those passengers who come into the cheaper area, it would mean Irlaking them .a 'present of £70,000 a year. The Commissioners simply cannot afford to do it.
Mr. HOGAN.-Wouid that be the additional cost if you extended the su burban rates all over the country ~
Mr. MACKINNON .-1 understand that that includes everybody coming into the suburban radius.
Mr. HOGAN.-If you extended the suburban rates all over the country, £70,000 would not cover the deficiency ~
Mr. MACKINNON.-No. I under-stand that so much traffic comes towards the metropolis that if the Commissioners ga ve tickets through to Melbourne on the basis that the last part of the' journey should be charged on the suburban radius basis, it would mean a loss to the State -of £70,000 a year. Of course, the present system means a heavy charge on the honorable member's district, because the inhabitants of that district probably come more often to town than the inhabitants of any other particular area do. With regard to the carriage of fertilizers which the honorable member for Korong spoke about, I have been constantly pressing the
Commissioners to take the view that fertilizers, lime, and things of that sort, should be carried nearly at the cost of carriage. They do carry these things cheaply, but they do no"t carry them at an absolute loss, and they do not see why they should. Their argument is that it has been found in New Zealand that these concessions really go to the men who supply the stuff, and not to the farmers who use it. For that reason they are very doubtful whether the farmer would get much advantage out of the concessio·Jl if it were to be made .
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburn).-That is too thin.
Mr. HOGAN.-The fertilizer factories charge £4 17s. 6d. per ton for superphosphates at Spencer-street, and the farmer has to pay the freight.
Mr. MACKINNON.-I assure the honorable member for Korong that his re-9uest has my personal support. I believe It would pay us to carry these things at a loss, in order to stimulate production.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper Goulburn) .-For every ton of fertilizer carried you would get a four-fold return.
Mr. MACKINNON .-In regard to the seed wheat "hich is in Melhourne at the present time, I will have a talk to the Commissioners, and see whether they can make some concession in regard to carrying it back to the country. They are making some concessions at the present time, and it seems to me that that is one that might be made, in view of the prico which farmers have to pay for seed wheat at the present time. With regard to all these concessions, the view which I take, and the view which I think the Commissioners should take, is that everything they can do to make freight for themselves in the future is worthy of their consideration. If, by making a concession of £1 now', they can insure collecting £5 next year, it is good business, and it is worth their while to attend to it. That is entirely in keeping with commercial management in all parts of the world. The honorable member for Upper Goulburn spoke of a loss on the suburban system. I am afraid that I must be an agnostic with regard to his theory. I cannot believe that that loss exists. I cannot understand a large community of some 600,000 people, who are fairly free spenders, and who are charged for this service a very similar charge to that which is made in other parts of the world,
!88 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.
running the system at a loss. If a private individual were to take the suburban railways over at cost price, by charging the present fares he ,,"'ould make a very handsome profit. I hope that the burden of increased freights and fares may not be necessary, or that, at any rate, it .will only be necessary for a short tIme. Wherever they can, the Commissioners will make the town people pay their fair share. But the Commissioners cannot be expected to charge in such a way as would have the effect of throwing away business, and consequently of increasing the loss on the whole concern. In view of the altered conditions which are coming along now, it may not be necessary to make any large increases in freights and fares. At the same time, some re-adjustment is inevitable. I would point out to honorable members that there has been very great concessions made to the users of the trains during the last six or seven years. The concessions to the travelling and freightproducing pUblic run into £400,000 a year. For that reason I think they should be prepared to make certain sacrifices at the present time. We all have to suffer sacrifices now. Those who own leases in Queensland really have to pay to the Federal Government for property which belongs to the State. Even those who have to pay land tax in that way are prepared in the present extraordinary circnmstances to make sacrifices.
Mr. HOGAN .-And prevent the Germans taking the land.
lVIr. MACKINNON .-1 will not argue that question. It is not usual, when a country is conquered, to dispossess private owners. That is one of the fallacies one hears. The land used to be so taken at the time of William the Conqueror, when he substituted the N orman barons' for the Anglo-Saxon earls. NO'· doubt, if our country was conquered now, the land-owner would have to pay something heavy in the shape of an indemnity, and it would be heavier than any tax the Labour party would be likely to impose. The honorable member for Fitzroy rais51d one or two points to which I should like to refer. He cO'mplained that porters were only paid 7s. 6d. a day until they got their certification. That is a matter on which we have had a good deal of dispute. Whatever members may have said on the hustings, the position of the Government has been that it is in the interests of the public that' the men should qualify. to
get the extra 6d. per day. \Vhen they have qualified as telegraph operators or in other ways, they get the 8s. minimum within six months. I did not quite follow the honorable member in his st~tement with regard to the payment of 9s. to casual labourers. Perhaps I will have an opportunity of discussing the matter with the honorable member afterwards. With regard to what he calls "terminating tickets," that is a matter which was thoroughly threshed out. Tbe difficulty about giving men their allowance at the first point where they work was that many men would sign on for Melbourne from their own district. The result was that they would be able to get the home allowance practically for their own district. As I understand it, this contrivance of waiting for the second move has been adopted to meet that particular exigency. The Commissioners stick to it as a sound principle. With all the deputations which have come to me, I have not heard that particular p~int raised, although it may be a grievance with some at the present time. With regard to the question of equal political rights, I have authority to say that it is intended to introduce a Bill dealing with the matter next year. On the question of organizations being able to approach the Commissioners, the position is that the Commissioners are prepared to meet any of their own men, but they will not llleet strangerg as representatives of the unions. Their reasons are reasons of discipline. They consider that the discipline and management of the enormous army under them will be more satisfactorily carried out to the public advantage and welfare if they deal with their own employes alone, and not with outsiders. There has been a constant dispute for many years over the question, but that is the Commissioners' attitude. Personally I am bound to say that I accept their view of the situation. I think it is hetter that any differences should be settled among the people themselves, and that the introduction of a third element into the discipline of a large concern· such as the railway service is will nO't make either for the welfare of the emplo,yes themselves or for the public advantage.
Mr. HOGAN.-It has not injuriously affected that discipline in South Australia, Western Australia., and New South Wales.
lVIr. MACKINNON.-I have made inquiries, and I am told that the position in
Railway [22 DECEMEE'R, 1914.1 Department. 489
New South Wales is unsatisfactory. I. may have overlooked some of the points raised by honorable members, but I have endeavoured to deal with them all. I do hope that the present break in the season will lead to improvement in the position of the railways. It is a melancholy thing to have a report brought up every fourteen days, showing very much less returns than those for a similar period last year. The splendid rain of the last few days leads one to hope that things will mend. While we cannot expect a full return to prosperity, as far as the railways are concerned, owing to the failure of the wheat harvest, still there may be other compensating advantages. There is a point which I would like to urge on those who object to any addition to railway freights. The honorable member for \Vangaratta, in an interesting speech the other evening, pointed out that some of the American railway companies adjusted the. freight rate in proportion to the value of the produce carried. That was to say, when wheat was $1, they charged more than when it was less. Except starving stock and other things affected in the same way by the drought, every fQrID of our produce has a~ increased value. With the exception, perhaps, of butter, I think honorable membe:rs will find that most of the other articles of produce will stand in the bulk somewhat increased' freight. Therefore the additional freight on those lucky enough to have the gc;wds to be carried may not fall very heavily at this time. Still, it is a time when we must be prepared to make sacrifices to keep the comm unity going. There is a prospect of the extra rates perhaps not being so severe as many people thought they would be some weeks ago, and, with the general improvement all round, it is possible that, before the extra charge is imposed, it may be modified, and· made more agreeable to those who have to bear it.
Mr. HANNAH.-I would like to ask the Minister how it is that it takes so long to begin the re-erection of railway station buildings which have been destroyed by fire 1 When people have their homes burnt down, they want to have them re-erected as quickly as possible. A fine new station building was erected at Northcote two or three years ago, but I understand that the burglars got in, and there was a fire nearly three months since. Nothing has been done in the direction of re-erecting that building, so that the employes are working under the
Secolld Fks.~I:on HJl4.-[1 ~J
most difficult conditions, and the public are inconvenienoed. When a building like that has to be erected, it does not seem to me that there should be any delay. I understand that there is the same experience at Sunshine.
Mr. W ARDK.-Sunshine is to be attended to. I brought that before the House.
l\([r. HANN.AH .. -Yes; but it was a long time before anything was done. I want to ask the Minister if he is aware of the cause of these delays ~ When a station building has to be erected, the sooner it is done the better for the public and all concerned. The employes at the Northcote station are working in a temporary structure with a galvanized iron roof about 12 inches above their heads. That is not very good in a season like this. I hope the Minister will make inquiries into the matter.
Mr. l\1ACKINNON (Minister of Railways).-\Vith regard to the Sunshine station, there was some delay, but I understand that the work of reconstruction is proceeding~ now as rapidly as possible. The Northcote station was to have been built by the beginning of the year, but I have no information as to what stage has been reached.
Mr. HANNAH.-They have not made a start yet.
Mr. MACKINNON.-Well, I will do my best to expedite the work. If there is any reason for the delay in these cases, I will endeavour to see that it is avoided in the future.
The vote· was agreed to.
RESOLUTIONS FROM SUPPLY.
The resolutions arrived at in Committee of Supply with regard to the Health Department and the Rail", ay Depart~ ment were reported to the House and adopted.
WAYS AND MEANS.
The Rouse having resolved itself int() Committee of \Vays and Means,
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved-
That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year enlling on the 30th July, 1915, the sum. of £3,655,483 be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue.
The notion was agreed to.
490 Appro priation [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.
APPROPRIATION BILL.
The resolution arrived at in Committee of Ways and Means was reported to the IIouse and adopted.
Authority having been given to Sir Alexander Peacock and Mr. Murray to introduce a Bill to carry out the resolution,
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) brought up a Bill" to apply a sum out of the' Consolidated Revenue to the service of the year ending on the 30th day of June, 1915, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this and the last preceding se,ssion of Parliament,' 1 and moved that it be read a first time.
The motion was agreed to, and the Bill W IS read a first time.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Premier) moved the seco.nd reading of the Bill. He said-Honorable members who. have been in the Ho.use for some time knoW' that this Bill incorporates all the money which we have passed in Committee of Supply. When the m~asure has received the signature of the representative of the Crown, the Government have the necessary authority to pay the public creditor until the end of the financial year. I informed one honorab'le member who did not happen to be present when the resolutions for the Chief Secretary's Department were reported that there would be an opportunity of referring to such matters in connexion with this Bill.
Mr. IIANNAH.-I have a matter of great importance which I desire to bring under the notice c.f the Premier. After raadillg the papers, the fact has come llome to me that the Government is speaking with two voices with regard to the question of the River Yarra impro.vements. Honorable members know that two years ago a certain fight was put up in connexion with the matter. As the result of a conference of metropolitan merrfbers, a distinct and definite promise was made. The late Premier committed himself absolutely and definitely to the proposal made two years ago. A promise of that so.rt should be carried out by the Government to the best of their ability. Once we lose f~ith in promises made by the head of a Government, it. will mean that honorable mem bers will hive sometimes to do things which they do not like. Most honorable me~berF: will remember the promise which
Mr. Watt made. In the course of his speech he said-
If we neglect the probabilities of the future, the land which is necessary to make the drive and recreation reserve along this placid stream will inevitably rise in value so that the cost of purchase may become almost prohibitive. The then honorable mem her for Hawthorn was chairman of the Committee which placed an amended scheme before Mr. Watt, who said he would prooeed with it, but that it was a matter which should be gone on with when there was plenty of labour available, so that work could be ,provided for the unemployed. He thought the Government should keep this work up their sleeve for that purpose. At the recent mayoral dinner at Malvern, a number of prominent gentlemen were present. The following is an extract from a report o.f the proceedings which appeared in the A.qe-
Alderman D. V. Hennessy, Lord Mayor, in proposing the Federal and State Parliaments, said that the country was facing a period when everyone should be prepared to pay his fair share of taxation. No one should evade his liability. The Federal land tax, with under £5,000 exemption, would allow many to escape who were well able to pay. (Applause.) The amount of exemption should be reduced, otherwise it could only be regarded as a class tax. (Applause.) The State Government was prepared to assist in the proposal for improving the Yarra.
Cr. :Kaylor (Prahran).-'L'hat is rotten work. It's simply wasting money. .
Proceeding, Alderman Hennessy said that such a work would provide employment for many who were at present having a struggle for existence.
Mr. F. Hagelthorn, Minister of Public Works, responded. He said the Government was not anxious to vote money for such work as the Yarra improvement.
Cr. Naylor.-Why did you suggest it, then? :Mr. Jragelthorn said the Government rather
favoured reproductive works, and- had spent tltousalHls of pounds in that direction throughout Victoria.
Mr. SOLLy.-He runs amok at all these gatherings.
Mr. HANNAH.-I understand that the honorahle gentleman constitutes a very important wing of the Government. Now, if there is any great work in the metropolitan area which has been neglected, it is that of the Yarra impro,vement. As a result of some preliminary efforts, the honorable member for .Tika Jika will remember that a party of honorable members went up the river at the request of the shire of Heidelberg. W·e had a little experience on the river which we are all familiar with. On that
Appropriation [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 491
occasion the lVIinister of Public Works spoke most optimistically of the whole project for Yarra improvement, and would t.dmit no present or prospective difficulties with land-owners. He described the whole work as one of the best schemes of the kind in any part of the world. Surely, at a time like this, we are not going to have the Government playing fast and loose with such a scheme. According to the it.ge, the honorable gentleman is calling a conference of the mayors of the variolls municipalities with regard to the matter. Perhaps the mayor of Richmond can say what took place.
Mr. SOLLY.-He was not invited. Mr. HANNAH.-The Government hav
ing committed themselves to the scheme, and acquired certain land for the purpose, they should attempt to bring the scheme to fruition. There is an abundance of labour now available, so I would ask the Premier to make a definite promise to us with regard to the matter, so that there will be no vacillation. The Government should not have one policy on the matter to-day and another policy to-morrow. The honorable member for Jika Jika knows that land has been secured from Fairfield to Reilly-street. so that the road along the bank of the river can be continued. In time to come it should become a splendid boulevard. I hope we are not going to have the Minister of Public Works saying one day that the improvement of the Yarra is the best work in the world, and the next day saying something different. We know the amount of money that has been spent on the Prahran side. It is all very well for Councillor Naylor to throw water on such a scheme. I would not pay much attention to him. We cannot afford to have the Minister adopting one policy one day, and another policy another day. The Chairman of Committees and a large number of members haye committed themselves to this. be .. lieving that it is a' national work. 'The Premier, too, when a private membet', spoke in favour of it.
:Mr. JOHNSTONE.-I should like the Government to urge on the different Departments the use of our hardwood timbeTS to a. very much greater extent than t.hey have been used in the past. I had the pleasure, with the honorable member for Gippsland East, of introducing a drputation from the Sawmillers' Associa-
[18]-2
tion to the Minister of Forests, urging this view on him, and, through him, on the Cabinet. The concession made to the ia wmillers is a step in the right direction. They desire that the matter should be urged on the attention of the Cabinet, with the view of enlisting the sympathy of the Public Works Department in the direction I have indicated. It has been a habit of the Department to use foreigu timbers even in very small works. It is only three weeks ago that I was informed that a specification had been drawn up for a sII\all piece of work, and that the contractors were asked to supply a price for foreign timber. At my request and Ul'gmlt appeal, the Public Works Depart-. mrnt substituted timber produced .in my O\Vll district for the foreign timber. I agree with the suggestion of the honorable member for Collingwood, that !l
handbook on our hardwood timbers should be published. It would be 'very valuable to architects and others who use timbers. They have published 'a book i.ll New South Wales that contains valuable information, not only in regard to their own timbers, but in regard to the timber~ of the other States. If we had such a l:onk in the Department, for the use vI architects and others, I think it would help to bring our timbers more into u.se. I should like to have had an opportumty of speaking' on the Railway Estimates, as I wished to draw attention to the traffic delays on the line between Irrewarra and Ballarat. It is a line that was promoted by the late. member for Polwarth, and largely owing to his influence it was built. Since it has been under the control of the Commissioners I do not think the best efforts have been made to make it pay. The travelling public are Dot disposed to travel by it to go to Ballarat. They would rather go round by way of Geelong, although .it is forty miles further. The reason IS that so much time is lost at the different railway stations. There is time lost at Irrewarra, and also at Beeac, where you are forced to stay for half-an-hour. I hope the Pl't;mier will take a note of this, with the view of having the time table altered. [ regret that I was not present to hear tllC views of the honorable member for Grenville on the question of beet-growing. If the Minister of Agriculture intends to a~t on the honorable member's suggestion, I
492 Appropriation [ASSEMBL Y.] Bill.
shall be very happy to do everything I can to illustrate how well beet can be grown in my dis.trict. ~ believe .that .if an experiment IS earned out It WIn
demonstrate that we can grow beet much better than they can in Gippsland.
Mr. M.ACKEY.-I should like to say a word in regard to the proposal to increase the railway freights and fares. r do sincerely hope that the Government, in view of the improved weather conditions, will not find it necessary to car.ry out this proposal, which is very objectionable from many points of view. We are endeavouring to encourage our farmers to put in as much crop as possible -in fact, the Government have been appealing to them to strain every effort to increase the acreage. I do not think that appeal will be helped by an increase of freights, which will rather act as :} deterrent. Apart from this proposal being impolitic, it is extremely unequal as a tax. The farmer who produces wheat 50 miles from Melbourne will have to pay a certain amount per bushel, but the farmer who produces 120 miles from Melbourne will have to pay double tax on the same quantity. At still greater distances the tax will be heavier still It is a tax that is only suggested because of this time of need, but it will fall very unequally on the farmers, and is objectionable for that reason alone. Then it will fall on one class only. It has been pointed out with wisdom that we cannot with profit illcrease the suburban railway fares, owing to the competition of the tramways and the motor buses. That is so, and it only indicates that whikl this special tax is being imposed on one class, the people of the metropolis are to go free in that respect. I admit that the proposal cannot be made gen-er.al. In regard to many products, the farmer can pass the tax on, but it cannot be passed on in the case of wheat.
Mr. EU.{SLIE.-Why? Mr. lfAOKEY.-We all hope that a
normal state of things will occur next season, when we shall have more wheat than is required for local oonsumption. Then the price will depend on that obtainable in London, and so the tax cannot be passed on to the consumer in Great Britain. If it means an extra halfpenny per bushel, the consumer in Great Britain
will not pay that, but will secure wheat from other countries. Quite apart from the fact that the price of wheat here. in normal times is determined by the Lon! don price, the increased freight will fall unequally on farmers according to the distance from Melbourne. One farmer may have to pay O-id. a bushel, and another, whose farm is further away, may have to pay 1d. I trust the Government ,vill reconsider the proposal, and I believe that the improved weather conditions will enable them to dispense with it.
Mr. HAMPSON. - I should like t.o point out that the question of freights and fares does not affect the farmers onI:v. I wish to express the views of what m~y be called the country members of the Labour party. The last speaker has put the "iew of the cornel' party, and he claims to speak for the farmers in particular. Last session I caned the attention of the Minister of Railways to the freights as they affect manufacturers, and he said he was going into the matter with the Oommissioners to see if something could be done from the standpoint of decentralization, which is the policy of the Government. Manufacturers in the country have a grievance against the Goverttment in the matter of freights. I do not know whether the Government will have the cournge to do what the Government of New South Wales has done itt this matter. Some adjustment is neces~ary in regard to the freight on raw materials and on manufactured goods produced in the country. If the Government are going in for the policy of decentralization and for encouraging manufactures in the country centres, then thl3 best way to do it would be by :fixing a freight whi-ch is known as the export rate. This rate is a concession made by the Oommissioners on goods to be exported, but they will not make that concession on goods sent from the country and sold in :M:elbourne, where we find 45 per cent. of the population. I brought this matter under the attention of the Minister of Railways before, but nothing has beeu done. If it is intended to raise the freights and fares, I hope the' ~£inister will try to get the Oommissioners to charge the e~port rate to country manufacturers on goods sent by them for sale in the metropolitan area. That is a plain
Appropriation [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 493
find simple matter. Everyone knows that our goods rat-es are most complicated, and one would need to be cleverer than a Philadelphia lawyer to unde!'stand them. I t would be a simple thing to char~ the export rat.e for materials l'cquil'od in the manufacture and on the manufactured article. There is another matter that I hope the Government will take in hand actively during the recess. They have certain schemes in their mind with reference to the beautification)£ certain aroas, with the object of providing work for the unemployed, but I think there are works of a more important charactor that could be undertaken in the country districts. The Government know the amount of trouble and suffering that has occurred in the Coliban area owing to the drought. The Coliban scheme was gone into in the first instance not from an irrigation stand-point at all. The whole country aro1).nd Harcourt, Castlemaine, and Bendigo has developed with the cultivation of fruit, tomatoes, and foddeT crops. Production is increasing very greatly~ but the people are faced with tbeproblem that they cannot get sufficient water for an ordinary season. Nearly evoery year the Department has to cut off cert.ain s:lpplies from sluices, and now it is being ·cut off from certain mines. Dairymoen lost their supply this year, and the dom£stic and garden supply for Bendigo has been restricted. There is need for increased storage. I hope also that the Government will push on with the Eppalock scheme, which is favoured by the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission. They, indeed, consider it a good proposition, and I believe the Minister of "Vater Supply expressed himself as being favorable to it. The land-owners, too, are entlrusiastic in the matt-er. This storage on the Campa,spe is a different proposition from the one on the Coliban, for it will pay its way. It IS estimated that they can sell tlie water at from lOs. to 158. per acre-foot.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-And splendid land to irrigate, too.
Mr. HAMPSON.-Mr. Elwood Mead says it is some of the finest land in the State. Lower down the strealU from ~ppa.lock about 10 miles down, Axe Creek run; into the Campaspe, and they are asking for the survey of a scheme there to store sufficient water to supply a large tract of country in ,the Elmore and Goor-
nong district. These are schemes that the Government can ta.ke in hand with confidence, and they will help to solve the unemployed problem. As I said before, I doubt whether the Government have the courage; in reference to freights and fares, to do what the New South 'Vales Government have done. Do not the Government think that New South Wales is setting them an example in clearing land, absorbing the unemployed, a.nd puttinO' the area under wheat ~ These are exceptional times, and I think the Government should take some action in that direction. The unemployed problem is one of the most difficult things to deal with, but this is a good way of relieving it. We have thousands of acres of Mallee land, and I cannot see why the Guvernment sliould not clear and plough it. I think it. is a sound proposition.
Mr. OMAN.-I think the honorable member for Grenville exploded that idea last night.
Mr. HAl\1:PSON.-The Government are urging the farmers to put in all the wheat they can, and I think t~le, Govern:' ment ought to go in the direction ~he New South Wales Government are gomg in, and guarantee them a minimum price for next year's wheat.
Mr. ANGus.-What is the minimum price ~ ..
Mr. HAMPSON .-Four slillhngs a~d three p.ence for next year. . The PremIer estimates that We are gomg to have 50 QOa 000 bushels of wheat uex,t year, but 1 'think it is a most optimistic estirnatoe. In order to get it, the Government will require to go in the direction I have indicated. I hope the Governm.ent will go in for some of the practIcal schemes I have suggested to pre.vent the unemployed problem from becommg more acute.
Mr. OUTTRIM.-I have refrained from speaking on the Estimates. because we are nearing the end of the ses~lOn, and 1 did not wish to prolong the busmess. I have now but a few words to say, that I hope will receive the serious consideration of the Premier. As far back as 1867, one of our best water engineers, Mr. H. O. Christopherson, made a survey of the country about half-way between Clunes and Maryborough to see if a.rrangements could be made for water storage t.o supply Talbot, Amherst, Maryborough; Bet Bet, Carisbrook, Dunolly, Tarnagulla, and Inglewood. He was instructed by the
494 .. 4. ppropriation [.ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.
then Minister of lVIines to make a survey, and prepare an exhaustive report. He did so, and that report was presented to the Minister and to Parliament. It showed that sufficient water could be obtained to irrigate about 65 miles of country between Mount Beckwith and Inglewood. It is a magnificent scheme, but it has lain dormant all these years. Now population is very sparse in the district that would be served by this supply. If the water could be conserved to irrigate such a large district, it would be a grand thing. I think the scheme deserves the favorable consideration of the Premier.
Mr. M K. McKENZIE ( Upper Goulb'ltrn).-Is the water to come from the Loddon 1
Mr. OUTTRIM.-No, from McCallum's Creek.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE ( Upper Goulbw·n).-Does that not flow into the Loddon 1
Mr. OUTTRIM.-Yes. Millions of gallons :Bow into the Loddon, run into the Murray, and go to waste. You cannot catch all the water tliat comes down. The water required for this purpose would leave millions of gallons to spare. Mr. Christopherson makes provision in his report for a reservoir at Mount Beckwith, and another at Mount Greenock. These two would supply the whole district with water for domestic and stock purposes as well as for irrigation. I do not know any land in the country that is better for growing almost anything than the auriferous lands. These areas about Clunes, Creswick, Talbot, and Maryborough can grow almost anything. In Maryborough, although it is buirt on quartz hills, oranges, lemons, potatoes,' and almost ar.tything will grow. .As fine potatoes as I have ever seen were grown the·re. I do not know any part of the count.ry where you can grow' so many different things with success as on auriferous lands. The Premie'r knows that, too, and that theTe is a good deal of land in his district that could be utilized for closer settlement if it, we:ce possible to irrigate it. Of course, it is no good without irrigation. I hope the Premier will read the report I have \-eferred to, and if he can do anything to assist us he will be doing a good turn that will lead to considerable· set·tlement. There are men within that area who find it difficult to make a living on 500 or 600 acres, but with irrigat.ion 100 acres would give a handsome return. I have never- read a finer report than the one I refer t.o. I
feel satisfied that the Government, with their inclination to help irrigation, will do what they can in this direction. I am very glad that we are coming to the end or the session, but 1 may say that I should be glad, if, before next session, .some arrangement could be made to improve the ventiJat.ion of this chamber. It is hardly fair to expect us to sit he,re for hours in such an atmosphere. Will the Premier be good p.llough to read that report 1
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I will. Mr. OUTTRIM.-I hope the honorable
gentleman will be able to see his way to get a report on the scheme from our present officers, and that. if it can be carried out at a reasonable expense the honorable gentleman will do what he can to have it carried out.
Mr. KE.AST.-I want to bring under the notioe of t.he Premier a very important matter in regard to the agricultural college land at Lang Lang. Two years ago I got a promise from the Minist.er that when t.he leases were up the land would be cut up into small farms for the benefit of people in the district, and others. I am told that the Government propose to spend £4,000 in draining the Ja.nd, portion of which is let to some large lana-owners in the district. The area of the land is about 4,500 acres, and it is as valuable as any land within 50 miles of M.eIbourne, if it "is drained. One hundred settlers could be put on it, and they would do remarkably well. I do not want the land to be let to large landowners when there are numoors of smaH meu in the district who are prepared to settle ou it. It win grow potatoes or ollions, and it is very good dairying land. It is very near a railway, ana is not far from the Melbourne market, so it is a very desirable place for settlement. .As I said, this 4,500 acres is very good land, and it is within a couple of miles of a ~ailway station. It will grow potatoes and onions, or can be used for dairying. It seems that it is not right that the Council of Agricultural Education should let a valuabie tract of country like that to large land-owners in the district, when large numbers of settle,rs want to get blocks of the land. I should be greatly obliged to the Premier if he would go intt') the matter, and see that the land is not again let to large land-owners in the district.
Mr. WEBBER.-I wish to t.ake the opportunity of drawing attention to the rather high-ba,p.g~g !lction of the Prahran
Appropriation [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 495
City Council III closing one of the thoroughfares connecting several of the suburbs. I could not bring up the matter on the Estimates of the Public Works Department, because the bridge I am referring to had not then been closed; but since then the Prahran council, without getting the apprOoval of the Richmond council, have blocked up what may be termed the main arterial rOoad connecting Prahran and Richmond. A member of the Government represents Prahran, and it would be interesting to know his opinion Oof the action that Prahran has taken. This is an old historical bridge that was brought here after the Crimean war, and was erected at the expense of t1he Government, and the closing 0.£ that bridge causes a tremendous amount of inconvenience to the, public and to traders. I hold the opinion that the construction of bridges is not a municipal, but a nat,ional, matter. Richmond is partly surrounded by the River Yarra, and there are five or six lJridges connecting it with other suburbs. Why should we be put to the expense of their u pkeep ~ The construction of main roads in country districts is now regarded as a natiOonal matter, and has been taken in hand by a Board, and, in the same way, tlhe construction of bridges l:ihould be made a public matter. But I will not go into that question today. I have drawn the attention of the Government to the matter, and ask what their intentions are. I do not know what the public Departments are doing in regard to it, except that they have written to the two councils, asking whether they authorized the closing of the bridge, and they are evidently unaware flf the fact that the Richmond council had not anything to do with the closing of the bridge. If the Richmond council had anything to do with the matter, I doubt whether they would have given apprOoval to the closing of the bridge, no mat,ter how dangerous it was, but· would rather have made some provision to continue bringing the traffic across the river. A press report in today's newspaper states that the Prahran council have now reneged, as it is said, and have taken down the iron girders, and .have given instructions to the town surveyor to have the bridge repaired. Whe-1.her tha,t report is correct or not. I do not know, but the Government should not allow one of the most important bridges in Melbourne tQ be closed for any length of time.
Mr. JEWELL.-I desire to call attention to the treatment of some of the senior warders in the, penal establishment at Pentridge. About nine· months ago a position as storekeeper became vacant. Advertisements were inserted in the daily papers and in' the G!overnme·nt Gazette calling for applications from seniOor warders for the position. After the time for receiving applications was closed, the Department held the applications over, and, I believe, a mont<h later they asked one of the men, named JarvIe, who was overseer of the bootmakers' branch, to put in an application. He did so, and his application was accept.ed. I have nothing to say against him, but what I complain of is that o·ther men, who have been in the Penal Department for twenty-five or twenty-eight years, are put aside when there is a chance for a slight promotion.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-'Vas Jarvie junior to the others ~
~1r. JE\¥ELL~-He was apl~·oilltcd overseer of the bootm;l,ke,rs' department, and, because he was receiving a higher wage than the .senior warders, it was held that he was the senior officer, and entitled too the positiOon. If that is the case, the man who has been appointed overseer since Mr. Jarvie's promotion would get his position if anything happened to. Jarvie, or if he was appOointed to a higher position. What encouragement is there to the warders who have studied up for different positions if the Government treat them in this way ~ The same thing has been done in other Departments. Mr. Jarvie was in the Lunacy Department, and was only appointed to the position of overseer six years ago. I hOope the Government will look into the matt.er, and in future give the men who have been studying for higher positions, and looking forward to promotion, a chance of getting them.
Mr. CARLISLE.-I wish to call attention to a matter in connexion with land held by the Council of Agricultural Education at Lake Baker, between Swan Hill and Echuca. It is part of the endowment lands. The council weTe offered £105 as rent, provided the lessees were allowed to drain the land. Objection to this was taken by the shire councils in the district and the local members, and the Minister of Agriculture, who can veto anything the council do, refused to agree to the land being leased. Sinc:~ t1,l~ll, th~ State Rivers a.nd
496 Appropriation [ASSEMBL Y. ] Bill.
Water Supply Commission ha-ve stated that they bave no object~on to the land be.ing leased if the,y can put a channel round it, and take water to Lake Boga. The council are holding this land, and getting no revenue from it. The officer for the destruction of vermin has asked the council to clear the land of rabbits, which will coot, £70. The position is that the council are getting no revenue from the land, and are asked to spend £70 in clearing it of ra.bbits, and a:re not allowed to let it. If the council are not to use the land, I think it is only fair that the Government should take it over, and compeusate the council for it.
Mr. CHATHAM.-I would not have risen but for the few remarks made by the honorable member for Polwarth. I agree that it is regrettable that a deputation .should have to wait upon the Minister of Public Works tOo induce him and his officers to use our Victorian timbers. I believe the fault of that lies, to a very great extent, with the administration or the Forests Department. Since I have been in this House, I have looked forward. to a Bill being introduced which would give us an opportunity of discussing the method of dealing with our Victorian tunbers. If there is any prejudice against our timbers it is on account of people not knowing their durability. I believe we. have as good timbe-r as in a,ny part of the world, but the trouble is that the people do not know the durability of the differel!l.t timbers, and the special uses to which the different timbers can be applied. 1 have always been of opinion that our Victorian hardwoods should all be branded to show the class of timber, so that anybody would know what kind of timber it is. We have hardwoods eminently suita.ble for building or for being painted, and other timbers that are not suitable fOol" being put in the ground or for being painted. Take the timber commonly known as stringy-bark. Not many people can discriminate between stringy-bark al1d messmate. The stringy-bark carries JlI.O gum: and is eminently suitable fOor use as weatherboards and for being painted, whereas messmate. is only suitable for jo-ists. If you cut messmate. into we:8itherboards, and painted t,h-em, the gum would come through and spoil the look of the work. Then, with mount3Jin ash, a. g"l'eat d.e.al of this timbe'r is sold. Any one who uses. it for rails and palings will have a durable wood, but if it is put in
the ground as posts a school-boy coutd kick the fence over in three or four years. It will not stand water. I believe that the cause of our hardwoods not being used in connexion with public and municipal contracts is that people are not familiar with the qualities of the different timbers.
Au HONORABLE MEMBER.-N one of these t,imbers will resist white ants.
Mr. CHATHAM.-We have prepara.tions that will keep white ants quiet. The other day a tender was called by a shire for a cel't·ain quantity of timber. It was not for immediate use, but was to be stacked at a convenient place to be used for culverts and bridges. The shire accepted one contract at about one-third above the ordinary price of hardwood. I asked a councillor the reason why the contract was given at this price, and he replied, "The tendere·r said the timber is from Tasmania, and is of better quality, and so we accepted his contract at onethird more than the price for which we could ha.ve obtained Victorian timber.n I said, "Can anyone of you gentlemen discriminate between Victorian and Tasmanian timber~" He admitted that he knew nothing about the different timbers, and he said that he did not think the other councillors did either. I asked whether the engineer could distinguish between Victorian and Tasmanian timber, and the councillor said, " No,. I don't think he can, but the contractors are a reliable firm, and I think We can depeud upon their supplying us with Tasmanian timber.n I think a Bill should be introduced to provide for the compulsory stamping of Victorian hardwoods, so that people may be educated as to the value of our timbers. .
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was tlaen read a second time,
and committed. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. First schedule. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK (Pre
mier) .-Several matters were brought up on the second re,a,ding of the Bill, a.nd, a.s I moved the second reading, I was pre~ cluded from replying. I am not fa.milia.r with the work 0.£ all the Departments, but, as shortly and clearly as I can, I should like to refer to some oJ the matters which have been brought under notice. The honorable Ell:ember for Collingwood, i'n speaking on the Estimates, referred to what he described as the two voices. r think I shall be able to show tha.t my
Appropri6Ltion [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. , 497
colleague, the Minister of Pu blie Works. has not been guilty of the error the honorable member for Collingwood attributed to him. I remember when the honorable member for Jika Jika, now a colleague of mine, along with the honor.able member for Collingwood, and other honorable members, were pressing a certain matter in connexion with the beautification of the River Yarra, ~nd we sat until 2 or.3 o'clock in the morning discussing the matter. I helped, in a private capacity, because I thought something should be done. The honorable member f,or Collingwood quoted what we said, ,and what recently took place at Prahran, when my colleague, the Minister of Public W or1rs, pointed out that the work was not a reproductive work, and that he, therefore, could hold out little hope of its being undertaken.
Mr. HAMPSON.-Was anything said about some honorable members being taken up the river and being stuck on :a sand bank ~
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I ,did not go on that occasion, although I very nearly did so; but I think all the honorable members who went came a.way impressed with the need of something being done. Some honorable members 'were rather jocular with regard to the action of my coll~ague, and affected to
; sympathize with him in the difficult position he has to fill as Minister of Public Works during these trying times. Anyone who knows the Minister of Public Works would not speak lightly
,of him in that way. I have. known him longer, perhaps, than anyone in Parliament, because I went to the same 8chool as he did. Some honorable members were rather disparaging his work and giving the impression that they believe he would make promises and not keep .t.hem. I do not think that any Minister has shown such a big and lively interest in the work of his Department as the Minister of Public Works has done, or shown so much sympathy and consideration in dealing with troubles which have arisen out of the drought and the war. No Minister attends earlier at his office, or leaves later. Reference has been made to what was said bv Mr. Watt, and what was said by Mr. Ragelthorn. Mr. Watt spoke as Premier, and he indicated that something ,was going to be done. Mr. Hagel£horn said that it was not proper that we should expenri borro\'ied
money on works t.hat are not productive. and I and all my colleagues hold that view. The people of this 8tate have sent our party into office on the question of looking after the finances. We have plenty of borrowing resources, but WA
have to utilize them ~n the direction of reproductive work. We want to see every man employed that we can possibly employ, and my colleague went to the trouble of asking me, as Treasurer, whether I was prepared to give out of revenue a contribution, small thouO'h it might be, for the purpose of providing employment. The Yarra improvement work cannot be said to be a national work, although it is a highly desirable work in beautifying the approaches to Ollr city. This work has been delayed a long time. The money could not be taken out of loan funds. Neither the Government nor the party would approve of that. We have said that the municipalities interested ought to contribute, and that so should the citizens who are likely to have the use of these improvements and, be benefited by them. We are inquiring as to what work can be gone on with, and we are putting, in hand all work that is available. My colleague haa a scheme worked out, a.nd a conference of suburban represent,atives is to be held to see how much they are prepared to contribute towards' these improvement works. I may say that it has given me the greatest gratificILtion, as head of the Government, to see that the public servant-s are making a public contribution ou t of their salaries to various purposes. At tim~ people, for political reasons, have spoken disparagiu,gly of our public servants, but I would point out that during this period of drought and war it is to the credit of the public servants that they are making contrioutions of from 1 per oent. to 5 per cent., and are continuing these oontributions all the time. Now that the war funds are in a good position, they have determined to make contributions out of their fund towards givinO' employment to their fellow citizens' and~help_ ing in the movement which the Government and the municipalities haye started for this purpose. I can assure the honorable member for Collingwood that the Minister of Public Works is thoroughly sympathetic in regard to the work he mentions, but the money cannot come out of. loan funds. One of my colleae;ue8 remmds me that two municipalities have
498 Appropriation [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.
already announced that they are prepared to make handsome contributions. One of the leading councillors said that they had any amount of bo.rrovving pmvers, and that there was an all-round disposition amonast the municipalities to utilize these po.w~rs during the next calendaF year if bad times continued. I hope that, as the result of the movement initiated by my co.lleague and the Lo:d Mayo~, .we shall achieve the double object of glvmg employment to people who are out. of work, and beautifying this_ Queen CIty of the south. With regard to the remarks of the honorable member for Polwarth concerning Victo.rian timber, it .is hard to believe that we have officers 111
onr Departments who are so indifferent to the inUlrests of the State that they cannot provide in o.ur specifications for works that our own Victorian tim ber shall be utilized. This matter was brought nuder my notice last week. I was sho.wn a valuable New South Wales publication concerning the woods, not only of New South Wales, but of Australia. We have had nothing similar pro.duced here, ana the Minister of Lands promised to bring the matter before the Cabinet at the earliest o.pportunity to see if we could not arrange to do something in the same direction. It, appears that there is not enougn sympathy shown in our Departments for our own products. It makes oue angry when he finds in the specifications for a building at Bairusdale, where we have some of the finest quarries, that it is provided that the stone shall be brought from Malmsbury. It is a reflection on our officers that they do not know what work can be done with our Victorian material. They seem to get into a groove, and they move along in that groove. I listened sympathet~cally to the remar~s of the honorable member about the tram journey from Irrewarra to Ballarat. It saves o.ne time if you go through Geelong.
Mr. OMAN.-Passengers now travel round by Ararat to' get to Ballarat.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-It is a aood line to keep one on good terms with one's relations. I have relatiO'ns at Warrnambool, and I occasionally want to visit them, but tlie inconvenience of traveHing makes that very difficult. . I will promise to represent the mat~r In
the right quarters most sympatlhetlCally, as I can speak from practical e,xperience. Wit,h regard to the question of freights;
and fare,s, does anyone think a Government likes to do anything of that kind '? Is it not more popular with a Government not to pro.pose a tax or the taki~g away of any privileges 1 I have been In office before in bad times.
Mr. HANNAH.-The honorable gentleman has been a most unfortunate Trea~ surer in always being there in bad times.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I have had a most unfortunate experience in that respect. As to what may happen in regard to the proposit,ion of fixing up freights and fares', I cannot now speak. It is one of the most difficult questions that the Government and the Railways Commissioners can have to do with. There have been several conferences between my. colleagues and the Railways Commissioners, and we shall have many more. ,Ve shall do notliing that will disturb the position of those who have a great struggle on the land; but it m~st be remembered that we have made remISsions during recent years in times of prosperity to the ext~rit of £400,000. The Government will have to see that the railways do no.t get into the position they were in many years ago, when a big loss was being made, and we shall ha~e to look at the matter from the natIOnal !tand-point as well as from the individual stand-point. A matter was brought up by the honorable member for Bendigo East. I believe that the honorable member is to be promoted' to a higher sphere, and that this was the last speech he may deliver. , It was similar to speeches he has delivered on the subject on previous occasions. I will only tell him that the question he mentioned has not been overlooked by the Governme-nt. I quite agree with him concerning the question of railway freights. If we want to retain industries in the country and to develop them further, the railways are the only means left to the State by which that object can be assisted. Something will ha ve to be done. The Commissioners are threshing the matter out with the Minister, and when we meet next session I hope we shall have some scheme to submit with regard to .getting raw material into the country, and the manufactured article brought to the larger :market, and that we shall be able to do something that will prevent country industries from disappearing, and make it possible for others to be established. The other suggestion was that
A1JprOpr-iation (22 DECEMBER, HH4.1 Bill. 499
the Government should utilize the unemployed by embarking in the scheine of clearing a lot of land and growing wheat, and in that way -enter into the doubtful undertaking of becoming competitors with our farmers. I can say straight out that there is not the slightest prospect of the Government: ever seriously considering a proposal of that kind. I do not think it would commend itself to the people of this '.:state. There are many other directions in which we will be able to find profitable labour for the unemployed. The honorable member for Abbotsford referred to the closing of the bridge over the Yarra at Churchstreet. It seems to me that that was an extraordinary thing to do. I do not know the actual facts of the case, but I will promise the honorable member to go into the matter. I think there must be some slight misapprehension on the part of the Prahran and Richmond Councils. I will consult with the Minister of Public \V orks . We cannot allow the public too be inconvenienced. \Vith regard to the question of additional water supplies, I am heart and soul with the honorable member for Bendigo East and the honorable member for Maryborough. I think the terrible drought we have passed through has really wakened the people's minds, in districts which have never previously suffered, as to the, necessity for water stora,ge. Take my own constituency: People used to say, "If it is raining nowhere else it will be raining in Ballarat." This year the people in that district have been suffering severely owing to the shortage of water, and in my own constituency there has been serious agitation with regard to getting water storage. The honorable member for Maryborough has spoken about the necessity for water storage in his district. I do not think there will be much trouble in borrowing money for additional storages in cases where we are absolutely satisfied that it is highly justifiable that those storages should be procured. The voice of the honorable member for Upper Goulburn for very many years past has been raised as to t,he necessity of providing additional storages, and I am afraid honorable members O'enerally were not too sympathetic with him . We thought to ourselves, "The seasons are good, and they are bound to continue." We kept putting the matter off. Whenever I see the honorable memo bel'" I think of the warnings that he
uttered. I think' I can promise on behalf of the Gov-ernment that the schemf\ at Eppalock, which has been 'referred to, will not be overlooked. I have had a chat with the Minister of \Vater Supply, and the other day I had a conference with the members of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission, and that matter will not be' overlooked. Other matters have been referred to that are not in my Department. I can promise honorable members that I will have H ansa1'd looked through, and a note made of the matters which they have mentioned so that attention may be given to them. That has been my practice ever since 1. have been a Minister. If I cannot meet all th~ demands that honorable members have made, I hope I will be able to 8hmv them, at all events, that their requests 'have not been overlooked.
Mr. HANNAH.-I wish to say a word or two with regard to the closing of the bridge over the Yarra connecting Prahran with Richmond and Collingwood. I hope t.hat the Government will do something in ,~onnexion with the matter. I was requested by a large number of my constituents, who have business that takes them through Richmond and on to Prahran, to bring the matter under the notice of the House, and if the honorable member for Richmond had been able to attend yesterday, I would have moved the adjournment of the House. The closing of the Church .. street bridge is most inconvenient to the public, and particularly to those people whose businesses take them out that way. I never thought for a moment that the Prahran Council would take such a highhanded action as to close th e bridge after. having agteed, according to the press reports, to have repairs effected which would cost a fe,w pounds-£100 or £200. They agreed to repair the bridge, and suddenly they departed from what they had agreed to, and ba.rred their side of the bridge. They took no steps to carry out the compact they had made with the Richmond Council. The absurdity of the position is this: The Prahran Council have blocked their side of the bridge, but carts bearing heavy loads drive up to the barrier, and the loads are transferred to carts waiting on the other side. There is the same weight on the bridge as there would be if it were open. Between the Hawthorn-bridge and Prince's-bridge there is only one
pOO Appropriation [ASSEMBL Y.] Bitt.
bridge ov~r which traffic ~an pass. T4at is tbe Church-street bridge, which the Prahran Council have blocked. It is a public highway-the only public highway for miles linking up thf3' north and the south sides of the Yarra. I hope that both the Premier and the Minister of E.fl.ilways, who, as member for Prahran, must be p~f~icu~arly interest&! in ~his Ulatter, will p~y attention to it. It was only because the honorable mem~r fOf :Richmond was unwell that the adjournment of the House wa.s :qot moveA yesterday in order that the matter might. be discus~d. Last; night t,he Prahrall Co'"ncil and the Richmond Co"ncil h~ld th,eir me~tings. It might have been thought that t.hey would decid.e tal put a fe·w men to work to fix up the few planks. which they . say are in an qn&Pun,d stata. It; might hav~ been expected that they wO\lld set to work immediately to repair the bridge. As the honorable member for Abbotsford has 8tated, this is a national bridge, although two ml,micipal councils have control of it. Surely the Public Works Department is not going to allow the, pu bEc to be inconvenienced bv the closing of the bridge V There i!s grea~r danger to the public at the present time than there was when the bridge was open for traffic, because heavy loads are transferred on the bridge, I would urge the Premier to see to-morrow if the difficulties cannot be quickly goot over, and men put on to repair the bridge.
Mr. l\~ACKINNON (Attorn~y-G~n~ral).-I do not know that the Prahran Couv,cil are altogether to blame in COD,
nexion with this matter. As I unde.rsta,nd their str~·tegy, they are ende~v<;)u1Jiug to fotce the issue. The bJi'idg~ is a nationa.~ b~idge, and it is o1;lly fight that those who use th~t bridge should COD
tribute towa,rds its maintenanCfi}. I beli0v-e the PrahJ;an Council are desirous of making a demonstration, so. as to. ha,ve the thing set-tIed o.n a proper l;>asi~. I understand that li;lst night th«,7y did come to so.me· sort of arrf,l.ngOOlellU by which the bridge win be able to. be usee!. I understand repairs ar~ to be effected. Their action in blocking th~ King's highway seems to be a dTastic o.ne. Of course, they have been advised that the bridge at present is unstable, and no.t fit to carry heavy weights. It. is a peculiar thing that it is able to carry the loads that are taken to the bar.rier and transferred to other carts there.
I shall be glad to. aid the Premier to settle this matter, but it is quite obvioua tha,t the Prahr~n Council are endeavouring to call attention to the fact that otber municipal oouncils should bear th!3ir share of the expenditure in connaxion with the bridge. The Prahrau Coun~il do. no.t want to have the bridge merely patched up. There is a further complication in the matter, inasmuch as it is expected that at any time the Government and others may combine to widen the bridge. The Prahran Council want to get that question settled at the same time.
Mr. BOWSER.-I understand the Premier has promised that the attention of the Governm,ent will be given durj)l'~ the recesi to certain anomalies in th& railway freights Clharged to manufacturers in the country towns 1
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Yes. Mr. BOWSER.-I would ask -the Pre
mier how he would view, because of the complicated nature of the railway classi'fioation and the large numoor of anomalies in that classification, the appointment of a Commission of business men with a railway expert for the purpose of going thoroughly into the question of these anomalies during the recess ~ Theseanomalies have had the effect of driving the manufacturers o.ut of the country towns for the past fifte'en years. I would point out that it is almost impoasible for a layman to deal with this question. It requires the knowledge of ex}:leFt business men and the taking of some evidence by them, and even they must be assisted by a railway expert thoroughly familiar with the freights charged. The anomalies under which the city of Bendigo suffers would alone engage the attention or t.he Commission for some daya Then again, South Australia IS· captHring the trade of the Riverina under our pFes.ent system of goods classification against cities like Ballarat and l3endigo. Mr. Knibbs haS pointed out that between the years 1908 and 1912, 6.054 p~ople l~ft Ballarat; 5,340 left Bendigo; 1,200 left Castlemaine; 500 left Wango3.ratta, and that in numerous other tow1;hS there was a loss of people to. the number of from 200 to 400. It is evident that our country towns and cities a·re languishing because of the pressure' of the railway freights. They ar\~ languishing because of the charges made on raw. material, and on manufactured
Appropriation [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Bill. 501
goods under special rate,s being distributed to country and other towns. Of course, we are· a.ware that special rates are given to certain towns, espe.cially in connexion with the foundry lD
dustry. Why should Mr. Thompson, of Castlemaine, get special consideration ~ The Minister of Lands, who represents Castlemaine, had nothing to do with the concessions given to Mr. Thompson, so far as using any influence since he has been a Minister is concerned. It was four years ago that the special rates were granted to. tha.t town. Assuming that goods from Thompson's foundry are being sent to Korumburra, they are sent free to Melbourne,. and the charge is made from Melbourne to Korumburra. N ow we want a concession not so great as that, but resembling that for other manufacturers in other country towns or centres throughout the State, which might be made in the meantime basing points. If' th:1t was done for certain towns, as soon as the industries were built up in those towns, the Government could extend the concessions to other towns, so that no complaint could lie against the Government in that direction. I would like to ask the Premier what his attitude would be to the suggestion that a Commission of business men, assisted by a railway expert, be appointed for the purpose of inquiring into these matters~
Mr. MACKINNON (Minister of Railwa}~s) .-As the matter referred to by the honorable member for Wangaratta concerns the Railway Department, the Premier has asked me to reply. The Government cannot see that any useful purpose would be served by adopting the honorable member's suggestion with regard to an inquiry by some outside body, but I can assure the honorable member that for some time past the Commissioners and I have been going into the question of a general policy of artificially stimulating industries in the country districts. The opportunity is afforded of doing that in connexion with the readjustment of freights and fares. We have'discussed the speech which the honorable member for Wangaratta made the other night on the Estimates, and we have seen the points he urges. We recognise that what he suggests is probably the only way in which the social forces that we have can be utilized for the purpose of building up' industries in particular places. The Oommissioners and the Go-
vernment will go thoroughly into ths matter, and do the utmost that can be done. We cannot see that any inquiry by outside business men would make any difference, because the Commissioners art: fully seised of what the situation is, and the Government are fully seised of what it is desired should be done. The Commissioners are interested in getting as much freight as possible, and the Government are interested in the welfare of thc State generally. Between the two, I hope 've will be able to evolve something which will be not only satisfactory to the country industries, but will not impose a burden on the country.
Mr. ~!L R. :McKENZIE ( Upper Goulburn).-I want to bring a concrete instance under the notice of the Minister of Railways. In the district represented by the honorable member for Dalhousi~, in which I live, there is a very striking instance of the effect of the railway freights. There was an old-established tannery which had been there for forty or fifty years. It was a very successful tunnery for some time. The directors found the rates operating against them so strongly that it was very questionable whether they could continue the working of the tannery. Not very long ago a :6.1·e broke out and destroyed most of the tannery. Then the directors had to consider whether they would rebuild it. They came to the conclusion that it would 'be better for them to erect a tannery down at Spotswood. The,y have done so. Ther6 is a concrete instance of the effect of railway freights on decentralization. If any investigation is made, that case can b~ brought up. The directors had an opportunity of deciding whether they would rebuild the tannery in Broadford, vI' whether it would be better for them to' build a tannery in Melbourne. They dt.cided to build in Melbourne.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I was passing through there a short time ago, and T asked why the tannery had not been built. No one could tell me the reason.
The schedule was agreed to, as were also the remaining schedules.
The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and the report was adopted.
On the mot jon of Sir ALEXANDEH. PEACOCK (Premier), the Bill was then read a third time.
502 Albert Park [ASSEMBLY. ] Land Bill.
HAWKERS AND PEDLERS BILL. Mr. MURRAY (Chief Secretary)
moved the second reading of this Bill. He said-This is a very short measure to amend the Hawkers and Pedlers Act. The law at the present time only permits hawkers and pedlers' licences to be taken out on the second Tuesday in March, June, September, and December. The object of the Bill is to enable people to obtain licences during any month of the year, and it also gives the Governor in Council power to appoint a special Court to issue licences. The matter was brought under my notice last week by the honorable member for East Melbourne. People who want to get licences sometimes accidentally miss the quarterly Licensillg Court, and cannot obtain their licences for three months. They may be perfectly honest people, but the only way in which they ean carryon their traffic is on a pro·· mise that the police will not institute proceedings against them. Where the character of the applicants has been shown to be good, I 11ave always directed that they should not be prosecuted, but I do not think it is a very good thing, even in the most meritorious cases, to allow the law to remain in abeyance.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and afterwards passed through its remaining stages.
ALBERT PARK LAND BILL.
Mr. LIVINGSTON (Minister IIf Public Instruction) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said-This Bill provides for the excision of half an acre of land from the Albert Park Reserve, so that a technical school may be erected on it. At the present time the reserve is contr01Ied by the South Melbourne Council, the St. Rilda Council, and the Board of Land and Works. Last year some objection was taken by the St. Rilda Council to the excision of this small area, but on .the 14th October of this year they rescinded their resolution objecting to the }lroposi tion. A junior technical school is to be erected on thjs site. There is no other suitable site in South Melbourne. The South Melbourne Oouncil has very generonsly offered £1,000 towards the p,rection of the school, and on th~ Estimates this year a sum of £2,000 is pro-
vided. If land had to be bought it would take more than that mOlley to pay for the land. The estimated cost of the building is £7,000, but it is assumed that the £3,000 will see us through this :financial year. We will complete the building afterwards. There is no need for me to dilate on the advantages of establishing a technical school at South Melbourne, where there is a large population.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and afterwards passed through its remaining stages.
RATING ON UNIMPROVED VALUES BILL.
Mr. LAWSON (Minister of Lands) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said-This measure contains no principle. It merely enables the Rating on Unimproved Values Aet to be brought into operation by certain municipalities at an earlier date than is at present possible. Section 2 of t.he Act was as follows :--
This Act shall come into operation on a day to be proclaimed by the' Governor in Council and notified in the Government Ga.zette. which proclamation may be made when the Governor in Council is satisfied that valuations of land made by assessors under the Land Tax Act 1910 are available for adoption for the purposes of this Act. The effect of that section was that the assessment for the whole of the State must be complete before the Act could be proclaimed. It is desired that municipalities where the valuations have been made, and the assessment is complete, may have an opportunity of bringing the Act into operation if they so desire. This Bill will enable an Order in Council to be made in respect of the municipalities where the valuat,ions have been. completed.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was t·hen read a second time,
and committed. Clause ] was agreed to. Clause 2-(Application to municipali
ties when land tax assessments are available).
Mr. MENZIES.-I would like to know if any municipalities have adopted the new form of taxation ~
Mr. LA'VSON (Minister of Lands).As the Act has not yet been proclaimed, it has been impossible for municipalities to do so. U nde'r the Bill there will be an opportunity for some municipalities to
J usticel3 Bill. [22 DECEMBER, 19]4.1 Coroners Bill. 503
come at onoo under the Act. I understand that there are requests to' certain municipalities to take advantage of it.
The clause was agreed to, as was clause 3.
The Bill was reported without amendment, and the report was adopted.
On the motion of Mr. LAWSON (Minister of Lands), the Bill was then read a third time.
JUSTICES BILL.
The debate (adjourned from December 9) on the motion of Mr. Mackinnon (Attorney-General) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.
Mr. BLACKBURN.-This small Bill seems to make two very desirable amendments in the law relating to the procedure before Justices. The default summons procedure in a Court of Petty Sessions was, to some extent, modelled" on the procedure under section 64 of the County Court Act, which enables the Registrar to enter up judgment by default, if nO' defence is sent in. That is done without the case being mentioned in Court at all. In the case of a default summons in the Court of Petty Sessions, the defendant receives in addition to his summons two notice~ of defence. If he intends to de· fend t.he case he sends one notice to' the Clerk of Petty SessiO'ns, and tJH; other to the complainant. If he sends them in, the case comes on in the O'rdinary way. Otherwise" judgment is entered up against him by default. Owing to' some oversight the clerk O'f the Court cannot enter up judgment himself. The case must be mentioned in Court. There is a good deal of reasO'n why the troubles of some defendants who have not been able to pay up should not be mentioned in Court if judgment can be got against them otherwise. This Bill will enable the clerk to enter up judgment exactly as the Registrar of the County Court can do under section 64 of the County Court Act. The other provisions of this Bill. with the exception of paragra ph (f) of clause 2, effect consequential amendments in the Justices Act. Paragraph (f) fills a gap which exists at present, and which has been found to' cause a good deal of trouble.- You can serve an ordinary summons on a corporation, but you cannot at present serve a default summons on a corporation because a default summons must
. be served persO'nally, and how you are to serve a default summons on a corporation
in that way seems to have been a problem which no one has solyed. The Bill says that if the prescrib~d methO'd of serving a company or any other corporation is followed that prescribed method shall be de'emed to be pe!so~al service within the meaning of t·he J ustlCes Act. The Bill seems to do two very excellent things, and I hope in will be passed.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and afterwards passed through its remain-ing stages. .
CORONERS BILL. Mr. MACKINNON (Attorney-General)
moved the second re·ading of this Bill. He said-This is a short measure which has come aown from another place. The object is to make an amendment in the Coroners Act to enable an inquest to be held in connexion with certain fires. At present, the law provides that an inquest can be held in connexion with death, the burning down of houses with people in them, and one or twO' o·ther cases, but there is no means of having a coroner's inquest on a fire which takes place in th,,, open. This Bill is instigated by the Forests Department, which considers that it is extremely desirable that inquests should be held on fires which break 011t
in forests. In se"ction 6 of the Coroners Act it is provided that a coroner may hold an inquest into the cause and origin of any fire whereby any building, ship, or merchandise, or any stack of corn, pulse, or hay, or any growinp; crop within such district has been destroyed or damaged. .
For the protection of our forests it is desired that there should be added the following words:-"or any firewood made up into bundles, stacks, cords, or loads, or cut up in the man· ner in which it is usual to cut firewood for burning, or any trees, timber charcoal bark or grass." ,,'
That is provided for in the Bill. It gives the coroner jurisdiction to hold an inquest into any such fires. Even in connexion with the ordinary bush fire, it would probably be desirable to have some inquiry into the origin of the fire. I might at once admit that the Bill is primarily intended to protect forests from fires of mysterious origin. The Bill is a simple one, and its object is commendable.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Uppe1' Gotdb'wrn).-It is desirable for bush fires, too.
Crowland and l ASSEMBL Y·1 Navarre Ra:ilway
lfr. M.A .. OKINNON.-That is so.. If the coroner can elucidate the origin of a fire he should have power to do it.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and afterwards passed through its remaining stages.
CROWLAND AND NAVARRE RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION TRUST
(INDEMNITY) BILL. On the Order of the Day for second
reading of this Bill, The SPEAKER said-In my opinion,
this is a private Bill. :M:r. MACKINNON (.!.ttorney-Gene
ra1).-I move-. That a.ll the priva.te Bill standing orders
be dispensed with, and that this BilI be treated as n. public Bill.
The motion was agreed to. Mr. MAOKINNON (Attorney-Gene
ral) mm'ed the seoond reading of the Bill. lIe said-This is a measure to indemnify the- memhers of the Crowland and N .aVllrre Railway Oonstruction Trust for having allowed the period within which they should have repaid money which they borrowed on overdraft in connexion willi opera.tions of the Trust, to expire. There have a.lready been two Bills of this sort, and I have some rpluctanoe in bringing this one forward. The last Bill was in connexion with the BenalIa and Tatong Trust. There was an excuse that the war had intervened, and that, owing to the excitement in the financial world, it was impossible for them to make the necessary u1'rallgeruelltl:i to finance by means of debentures. I do not think that trouble altogether exists in this case. If the Trust are able to continue their overdraft, they can go on without the expense of iS31llng d€bentures at all. Apparently they have been pretty successful, as they anticipate that in the course of a year or two they will be able to payoff the whole amount. I hope no' more of these trusts will come to Parliament i~ this way. We are getting into a condition in connexion with these trusts in which we used to be in former times through municipal councils constantly coming to Parliament to be indemnified because they did not handle their o,verdrafts in accordance with the provisions of the Local Government Act. Honorable members know that we had to pass a pretty rigid law. The members
of any council which breaks that law are liable to be personally sued for any amount of overdraft which is beyond thei r limit at the time which is :flied. The Cro,wland and Navarre Railway Construction Trust are in a difficulty.
1\1:r. ELMSLIE.-Of their own .creation ~ Mr. l\fACKINNON~-Yes; but the
Bill iliay save them the expense of floating debentures and the necessary charges in connexion therewith. Such Bills have already been introduced in connexioll with the Gheringhap and :Maroona Trust and the Benana to Tatong Trust. Thio., I hope, will be the last of these applications, because it indicates a rathel' slo'i'enly way of doing business on the part of the Trust. I ask the House to give the Crowlandand NavalTa Trust this indemnity, but, as far as I am 'concerned, I shall set my face against any more applications for an extension of time, except in the case of serious war trouble, which makes it impossible, humanly speaking, to finance. These Trusts should make their arrangements at .an early stage, and Parliament should not be put to this trouble. The members of the Trust are generally men of municipal expel'ieace, und the practice of coming to Parliament in this way should cease.
1fr. ELMSLIE.-When a previous Bill of this sort was before tllB H,ollse I obj.ected to it going through without some protest. While there appeared to be 1'00.sonable excuse on the last .occasion, the same eXCllse does not apply here. It f'eems to me that this is a mod,ern amI growing development. It is evident that this particular Trust has boon careless, and has assumed that Parliament will put it right if so requested. When the .Aet was passed restrictions were imposed to see that the Trusts did their business in a proper manner. If Parliament wa~ too severe in laying down the course to be followed, the proper thing would hav~ been to ask for amending legislation. Nothing of the kind has been done. Thc Trust entered into an obligation, and they h,ave not fulfilled it. The members are now asking that they should be allowed to finance the Trust through the bank up to a certain time. In a measure it seems to be :Bouting Parliament, and assuming a responsibili~y which the 'Trust should not assume. If . we pass and condone thin,gs of this
Oonstru,ction Trust [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 {Indemnity) RiU. 505
kind there is no telling where it will end. Mter :all, there is no guarantee that if this extension is granted they are going to meet their obligations more cheaply than if they had done it previously. While the Minister has said that he will set his face against this sort of thing, we are establishing precedents, and we know the force al1d power which such precedents have. To my mind, it is no' excuse that they could get more favorable terms by adopting this course than by .obeying the law. 'When they assumed the responsibility they should have carri8d it out. Unless some stronger reasons are Rcivanced, I do not think Parliament should practically amend the existing law by legislation of this kind. If the law i8 not wide or free enough, then the law should be amended. I am not a believer in piecemeal action of this sort. I do not like to vote against the Bill, and yet I feel strongly oppoood to it. These Trusts must be constituted 'with a due sense of their responsibility. I .do not reoollect a Bill ()f this kind before last year. Previously the Trusts had carried out their work properly.
Mr. OMAN.-WhatdQ they get for .doing it?
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do not care. They have no right to take the responsibility if they do not carry it out.
Mr. OMAN.-You throw the responsibilityon them.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-They assume it. If we judge what every man does by what he perso.nally gets out of it, we are coming to a pretty pass.
Mr. J. W. BILLsoN (Fitzroy).-Every man has a right to erect his own standard.
Yr. ELMSLIE.-I want a higher standard. Looking at it from the low mora.l point of view which the honorable member for Hampden has submitted, I undertake to say that many of these people are receiving substantial improvement in the value of their lands. As a rule they do not take tbese responsibilities unless the railway is going to improve their property.
Mr. OMAN.-What lo.ss will the Government sustain by this proposal1
Mr. ELMSLIE.-Parliament has laid down certain conditions that should . be followed. and these people are not obeving them. If the co.nditions are pressing
unfairly on these people they should ask fGT ,an alteration of the law instead ot trying to get an .amendment {)f this kind made. The excuse is that they may get more favorable financial consideration than they can obtain now. That is not a sufficient reason. These positions should be faced mor,e seriously, and the obligations should be catrried out. We do not want to legislate in this slipshod manner. If we go on like this we shall not know w he1'e weare.
Mr. OMAN.-If a bank financed the Trust there w0uld be no ha.rdship.
Mr. ELM'SLIE.-The :M:inister did not tell us that, but he gave us the reasons advanced to him.
Mr. OMAN.-I have had experience or it.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I want the lawobserve~, for tha.t is our safeguard and securIty. If the la.w is oppressive it is just as easy to amend it as to bring in measures like tIlls. I am o.pposed to this kind of thing.
Mr. OMAN.-I did not hear the Minister's expla.nation. When a Bill authorizing the ~onstruction of a line is passed the onus lS thrown on the municipalities concerned of acquiring the necessary land. They go to a bank, and get an advance sufficient to pay the compensation. If the Trust demands a final set~lement .within the two-year period there IS somebmes a good deal of friction and arbitration. It is very often the small owners who insist on refusing a complete settlement, . and it is felt that if they are forced mto the Arbitratio.n Court it will mean loss to them. Therefore the Trust gives them a little time to thiclr it over, and for that reason it often happ~ns that the two-year period has expIred before the Trust is able to set the machinery in motion to :Boat debentures. In the meantime the bank has made the advance to the Trust. If the law permitted the bank to finance the Trust for the whole period no injustice would be done to the State. To require the repayment within two. years is quite an unnecessary restriction.
Mr. MACKINNON.-But it is the law. Mr. OMAN.-That is so, but it is not
deirable to fo.rce these poor men to go to arbitration. I know an instance where a man obtained £2,000, and lost the whole of it in law costs. It is desirable to :Boat debentures at a favorable
506 Crowland and Navarre Railway [ASSEMBLY.] Con8tructionTru8t(Ind~mnity)Bitl.
time. A man WhD refuses tOo acoept the amount offered at first will often come to the Trust afterwarda, if he is gi ven time to think Dver the matter, and agree to ,a, settlement. The engineer-inchief in cDnnexiDn with the GheringhapMaroOona Trust said that it was advisable to give them time to think over the mattel. I have been cDnnected with three Trusts, and that is the rule. The peDple delayed the procedure, and the Trust did not desire tOo force the ratepayers to accept nDminal sums. The members. Df
the Trusts receive no remuneratiDn, and they trave,l lDng distances to attend the meeting8. Because I signed notices for the acquisition of land over thirty peOople vDted against me at the last electiDn. This is a fair prDposition, and will nor, mean any loss to the State. We have passed similar Bills indemnifying councils who. have e,xceeded the law in their desire to carry Dn without friction. If the leader of the Opposition had only had some experience in connexion with a Trust he would be ready enough to agree to this proposal. At pr,esent it is almDst impossible to get peQple to take up the debentures. When we o.ffered debentures, backed up by the security of nine shires, only £2,000 worth were taken up, althDugh the amDunt to he raised was £10,000. I h?d tOo go round and beg my friends to take up the debentures. The Government shOould say that they will find the mOoney to finance the Trusts if they are gDing tOo issue debentures.
Mr. l\IENZIES.-As Qne who. has had experience of these Trusts, I can supPQrt the statements made by the honDrable member fOol' Hampden. The usual practice is tOo IDdge with the Treasurer a certain amOount, and YDU are not in a positiDn to strike a rate under twelve mDnths. I made myself responsible in one case by giving a guarantee to a bank fOol' the amount. As the hDnorable member has said, many difficulties arise in an area such as he referred to. It is very difficult to say that you will be able tOo raise the revenue within a certain time, althDugh in making arrangements with a bank the time has to be de,finitely fixed. The House has already granted an exactly similar concession. Men who accept pDsitions on these Trusts dQ it from public reasons. Where three or four cDuncils are involved the men who are in the best
financial position accept the responsibility. It is a small matter to ask Parliament to indemnify such men, and a.ll
that is asked for is an extension o,f the time, which is all exceedingly reasDnable request.
l\1r. PENNINGTON.-This happened in a portion of my electorate. The Trust was fDrmed befDre I was returned to this House. I understand frDm the secretary that the Trust want an extension of something like twelve months. I understand that, three yearly instalments have to be paid, and I think the last will be in Octo bel' next. The Trust has been held up by one or two individuals who· are already served by an existing raflway, and have refused to accept the compensation that the Trust is prepared to give. A settlement will soon be arrived at, I think, with these men if it has not already been arrived at. I do not think any objection should be raised to this measure, because the State will not lose anything by it.
The motiDn was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,.
and afterwards passed through its remaining stages.
INSTRUMENTS BILL. Mr. MACKINNON (AttDrney-Gene
ral) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said-This is a Bill which is associa,ted with the present effort to help the farmers to finance themselves through the coming harvest. It does not conce,rll the Government, but it is introduced at the request Df one or two institutions that are willing to make advances by way of lien on the crop to enable the farmers t.~ obtain seed fOol' the cDming harvest. Under the existing law these companies cannDt advance money by way of lien on crDps, because there is no security to offer them. A security must be on something practical. in the grDund-something sown. There is no power under the law to give security Dver a crDp before it is growing. I do not kno.w when the erDWing begins, but I suppose the first rain, if the seed is SDwn, will germinate it. Until it is at that stage no one can protect himse.1f as a money lender. The seed has to be in the ground before the lien can be given. One institution has written to us stating that it is prepared tOo lend money to the farmers if the Government will pass this Bill granting this security. This Bill relates only to advances made during the next twelve months, and it is
l'imbo(}n to [22 ])ECEMBER, 1914.J Port Oampbell Railway. 507
not proposed to extend the operation of the .tiill beyond that time. I do not know that it is desirable that it should be extended furthe'r. It is an anomalous form of security) c.nd I do not know that it exists outside of Australia.
Mr. BLACKBURN.-It is purely Australian, and originated in New South Wales.
Mr. MACKINNON .-1 think it is purely Australian. \Ve also invented stock mortgages. \Vhen the original Bills went to England they were disallowed, because the matter was regarded as a mixture of pawnbroking and o.rdinary finance. I think we should grant this power, because it is desirable that private individuals should be encouraged to give assistance to the farmers, and thus relieve the Government in that particular direc-tion.
Mr. M. K. l\1:cKENZIE (U ppe'l' GO'ld!,'lIrn) .-1 think this is a very good measure. I understand from the AttorneyGeneral that it simply provides that financial institutions or money lenders can lend the farmers money for the putting in of crops. This gives the lenders security that they would no~ otherwise have. The object is a desirable one, and I think the Bill will have a beneficial effect. I know persons who find it difficult to take advantage of the proposals of the Government in regard to advances for seed wheat, who. under this measure, will be able to get the help they require.
The motion was agreed to. The Bill was then read a second time,
and afterwards passed through its remaining stages.
MR. E. W. HUBBARD COMMITTEE. Mr. KEAST, on behalf of the Chair
ma.n (Mr. SNOWBALL), brought up the report of the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the claims of Mr. E. W. Hubbard for compensation or remuneration for his services in connexion with the dredging of Bendigo Creek, together with the minutes of evidence.
The report was ordered to lie on the table.
PRINTING COMMITTEE. Mr. McGREGOR, on behalf of the
Chairman (the SPEAKER) brought up a report from the Printing Committee.
The report was ordered to lie on the table.
TIl\1:BOON TO PORT CAMPBELL RAILWAY.
Mr. MACKINNON (Minister of Railways) 11l0ved-
That the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Railways inquire and report on the meritR of. a possible motion that the 5ft. 3in .. gauge railway from Timboon to Port Campbell (which the Committee in its report of the 6th July, 1909, refused to recommend for con· struction in ordinary course) be authorized to be constructed as a developmental railway under the provisions of the Developmental Railways Act 1912.
He said-Honorable members who were in the last Parliament will remember that a motion was submitted in connexion with this line as a developmental railwa.y. There was considerable discussion on the matter, and eventually the Government under~ook to r~fer it to ~he Railways Standmg CommIttee, and thIS is the form in which, after consultation with the Crown Solicitor, I have thought it was desirable to present the matter for the consideration of Parliament ana for their approval, so that the question should be sU~)lnitted to t~e Railways Standing Comlluttee. It WIll be necessary fo.r me, in accordance with the usual practice, to state the facts with regard to this particular line, alld 1 may say that they are as follows: -The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Railways reported on th? proposed line on 6th July, 1.909, and reJected it because the productive area to bring freight to the railway was not large enough to make it a payin,g one. The proposed railway would· be an extension of the existing line from Camp~rd~wn to :rimboo~. Its length is 9I. mIles, and Its termmus would be 159.{llules by rail from Melbourne, and 36 m,iles by rail from Camperdown, and also dIstant about 26 miles in a straight line from Allansford Station on the TeranO' to. 'Var~nambo?l railway, and about 22 mIles dIstant III a straight line from Crowe's Station at the termination of the Beech Forest to Crowe's railway. The area to be benefited by the line would be about 112,000 acres, chiefly in the parishes of Paaratte, Waare, Narrawa~irk, and Latrobe. The survey proceeds In a south-easterly direction along Power's Creek for 2 miles, and tbence southerly along Campbell's Creek down to Newfield, and en to. Port Campbell. Be~we~n Timboon and Newfield the country IS hIlly, and the roads, being unmetalled, are almost impassable in winter, the average annual rainfall of the district
508 Timboon to [ASSEMBLY.] Port Oampbell Railtway.
being about 30 inches. Soon after leaving Timboon, the line would pass through a State forest covering about 20,000 acres. Cartage of timber from this forest to Timboon station causes the roads to be much cut up in the wet season, and renders vehicular traffic difficult and costly. There is no stone suitable for roadmaking in the district. Supplies of bluestone can be obtained at Glenfyne, 7 miles north of Timboou, but to bring this to Timboon and cart it by road towards Newfield would be expensive. No rates are obtained by the He·ytesbury Shire Council from the State forest~ nor from a large area of Crown land adjacent, sO' it ha.s not much money to spend on roads. Of the area to be benefited by the proposed line, 26,000 a.cres are alienated, 72,000 acres are Crown lands, and 14,000 acres are reserves. There' are 26~OOO acres of alienated land. The greater pro_ portion of this area consists of rich soil, and is used chiefly for dairying, from which a good living is made by the settlers. There is not much agriculture, as the want of a railway is a decided obstacle to the profitable production of root and cereal crops. On the east, around Princetown, and along the Gellibraud River, there is an extensive area of rich country devoted to dairying, which will benefit considerably by the construction of a railway. The land in th8' vicinity of Curdie's Inlet consists of good agricultural a:nd grazing land. There are 72,000 acres of Crown land. About 42,000 acres consist. of grass-tree plains. Of this~
. about 10,000 acres, at a distance of from 1 to 2 miles from the coast, is fair sheep country, carrying about one sheep to 3 acres~ the land being poor and of little use for cultivatio-n, ex.cept in small patches. The remainde,r of the ,grass-tree plains back from the coast is practically ~nov~uefma~~uUure. Theb~an~ of the Grown land, about 30,000 acres, is heavily timbered, on which stringyhark. and messmate are growing with thick scrub as undergrowth. 'l'he land i~ undulating and expensive to clear. The soil is a light-grey loam with geod clay bottom, and would be suitable for fruit growing when cleared; portions would also grow hay and fair grass. It is third class land. There is a large amount of good timber suitable for milling purposes in this area. The avera,ge annual output of sawn timber from the benefited area is about 400,000 superficial feet. The output will probably be increased 50 per
Mr. Mackinnon.
cent. if a. railway is constructed. There are 14,000 acres of reserves. The reserves along the coast are fairly well grassed, and would carry about onesheep to 2 acres on the natural grass. There are large limestone deposits near the coast,. similar to those now being worked near Curdie's siding. In the future these are likely to be opened up,. and would require large quantities of firewood to be brought from the timbered areas to burn the stone. The population of the district is about 400. The coastal scenery is unique, and possesses many special points of interest, and. there is considerable tourist traffic to Pr.lllcetowll, Port Ca..m:pbell and Peterborough in the summer monthir. Tourists of the number of 1,190 visited these places during 1912. The yearly ta.kings at Timboon. Railway Station have increased in the last four years (1909-13) from £1,734 to £2,042, nearly 20 per cent., and the number of outwards pa.ssengers from 1,112 to 2,168. The estimated cost of the line is £43,469, including £540 for rolling-stock. Those are the plain facts about. this line, and as the House desired that before this line was presented as a develoP.ment::l railway it should have. the consI~erahon ?f the Railways Standmg CommIttee, I, lD.
accordance with the wishes of the House,. now submit the motion which stands in my name.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-The Minister of Railways has told us that, in submitting this motion, he has submitted it in the present form after consultation with the Crown Solicitor. I am glad to have that assurance, because I cannot understand this mO'tion at all. It seems to me to b& very ambiguous. It is evidently of a legal character, showing that it is the joint production of the Attorney-General and the Crown Solicitor. The motion is-
That the Parliamentary Stauding Committee On Railways inquire and report on the merits of a possible motion that the 5ft. 3in. gauge railway from Timboon to Port Campbell--
and so on. What is the meaning of thos& words " the merits of a possible, motion" ~
Mr. MACKINNON.-If the Committe~ say it has any merits, then the proposal can be gone on with.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I think, with all due respect to the authorities responsible for the motion, that it is in the wrong direction-that it gives an undue advantage to this line. It takes it out of the field where I think it should be-that is, th6
Timboon to [22 DECEMBER, 191"4.1 Port Oampbell Railway. 509
field of a general referenc&-and brings it down into the field of a specific reference. If that contention is correct, then the motion gives this lllle a substantial preference over other proposals that will be submitted to the Railways Standing Committee. I have consulted thos.') who kno,w something about the matter--although not of such legal attainments as those possessed by the Crown Solicitor and the Attorney-General-and I should like to have an assurance from the honorable gentleman that the motion he now submits does not give this line an undue preference over any other proposal t~la.t. is submitted to the Railways Standlllg Committee. I am assured that the effect. if this motion be carried, will 00 to do away with the general reference, which, I think, is the proper course to follow ou this occasion, and to. constitute a specific reference under which this proposal would come on the top of the list instead of taking its position in its due order. It seems to me that this is a new departure in dealing with the Developmental Rail· ways Act, and I think we should have a right mode of procedure from the start. I am told that the proper line on which such a motion should run is the follow· ing:-
That the question of connecting the district of Port Campbell by mea.ns of a. railway with the existing railway ~ystem be ~eferred to t~o Pa.rliamentary Standmg CommIttee on RaIlways as a. developmental railway for inquiry IlInd report. <
The motion in this form would submit the line to the Committee as a developmental railway proposition,' and I think that is the proper thing to do. In passing the Developmental Railways Act, we passed an Act to enable us to construct developmental railways, knowing that for some considerable time there is no likelihood of their paying; and I think the Rouse generally under· stood, when that measure was carried, that lines of this kind had to be taken away from the other class of lines, and submitted to the Railways Standing Com. mittee fO'r their report and for their re~ commendatiO'n, on evidence, purely as de· velopmental lines. It seems to me that the motion, as submitted by the Minister of Railways, is not in the prO'per form, while it is sO'me,what cumbrous in cha,racter. Certainly I think that the one which I have read, and' which I consider is! the kind of motion that should be au bmitted, is more. dilrect. It would place us
in the position of knowing exactlyt what the reference is; and, when the recom· mendation does come from the Railways Standing Committee, either in favO'ur or against this line, we will knO'w that it has been cO'nsidered on its merits as a developmental railway pure and simple, in· stead of the Railways Standing Com. mittee, as. proposed by the Minister of Railways, inquiring and reporting "O'n the merits of a possible motiqll." It seems to me that this motion appears to consti t1.1 t ~ a specific r.eference instead of a general reference, SUC~l as the Act intended.
Mr. lYIACKINNON (Minister of Rail· ways).-By leave, I would like to e'xplain that the reading which I have adoptedand I think it is the right one-of the Developmental Railways Act is this: It is an Act which enables Parliament of its own volition to decide, on the presen· tation of certain particulars as to the kind of country, and its prospects, in which it is proposed to construct a line, to decide, altogether apart from the Railways Stand· iug Committee, on the construction of that line. Parliament has in the Act laid down certain very specific and detailed requirements, and it also lays down, as a qualification for the presentation to and the consideration by Parliament of a pro· posal of this kind, the fact that it has been rejected by the Railways Standing Committ,ee. It is not in accordance with the spirit of the Act that the line should b~ presented directly as a developmental line to the Railways Standing Committee; and it is for tbat reason that the Crown Solicitor and I, after consultation, came to the conclusion-considering the meaning of the Act of Parliament, and in order to preserve the right which Par· liament seems to reserve to itself of deciding on these lines. out of the ordinary course alto~ether, not by general refer· ence and then by specific reference--to adopt this particular form. If we adopted the form which t,he leader of the Opposition sugg,ests, it see'IDS to me that we would need to adopt it in every case when it was proposed that a developmental railway should be presented to Parliamflnt for consideration. 1 do not think that is the intent,ion of Parliament, and it is in order to comply with the spirit of the Act, and at the same time to meet what was obviously the strong wisb of :Parliament, tha-t this line. should not go through without their having evidence
510 Trida, &c., Districts [ASSEl\1BL Y . J Connecting Railway.
of its merits fro:n a recoglli~ed body which i~ in the habit of dealing with these matters, that the motion has been presented in this form. I admi'b that it may seem a lit.tle r:!umsy, but it was difficult to carry out in other words the idea intended tl1at we should preserve the right of Parliament, apart altogether from the Railways Standing Commit,tee, to consider these developmental lines in connexion with which Parliament was prepared to take the responsibility, while at the same time having the advantage of the Railways Standing Committee's long experience in handling these questions.
Mr. McGREGOR.-This, apparently, is a reference to the Railways Standing Committee to ascertain if there are any merits sufficient to refer the line tOo them.
Mr. l\fACKINNON.-It is a reference to them of the merits of a possible motion for the construction of this line. It may be open tOo the Committee to take the view that. the matter has not been presented to them in such a way that they can go into the merits of the line, but I do not think they would take that view. Of course, if they were to do so, we would ha ve to devise some other way of getting the matter before them, but what we really want is to, get the Committee's opinion and at the same time to preserve the right of Parliament. That is the reason the motion is worded in this some~hat peculiar way.
The motion was agreed to.
TRIDA, GEACHVILLE, AND WEST TARWIN DISTRICTS
CONl\TECTING RAILWAY.
Mr. MACKINNON (Minister of Railways) moved-
That the question of connecting the districts of Trida, Geachville, and West Tarwin by means of (\ railway or railways with the existing railway system be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Railways for inquiry and report .. He said-This line has been under the consideration of the Railways Standing Committee already, and it is desired that we shDuld re-submit it in this form. The country to be served lies in a basin to the sDuth-east of the Strezlecki Range, along the summit of which runs McDonald's Track. It is drained by the West Tarwin River and its tributaries, and Mirboo North is the nearest railway station, being from 5 to 12 miles distant. Railway connexions
with Mirboo N ol'th, Thorpdale, and McDonald's Tra,ck station at the terminus of the proposed Koo-wee-rup to McDDnald's Track railway, have been suggested. Connexion with Thorpdale seems the most promising. The soil of the country to be served is of good quality, but in consequence of the steepness of the hillsides, and the broken nature Df the country, not more than half the land can be cultivated. The land in this district was selected about thirty years ago, and it was then heavily timbered. It is now cleared and sown largely with cocksfoot and other English grasses. Good yields of oats, barley, potatoes, peas, onions, maize, &c., have been obtained from small areas, but the 'landowners find that it will not pay them to grow such crops, unless nearer railway facilities are provided, owing to the heavy cest of cartage to the railway. Dairyfarming and sheep pasturing are the chief occupations Df the settlers. The district has an abundant rainfall, averaging from 35 to 40 inches per annum. A 5-ft. 3-in. gauge railway with 8-chain radius curves and 1 in 30 grades from Thorpdale to West Tarwin River and the Cross Roads has been surveyed (flying survey). The length to West Tarwin "is 7! miles, the rough cost being £82,000. The length to the Cross Roads is 11i miles, the rough cost being £117,000. Owing to the nature of the country, railway construction will be eipensi ve. The area to be served by the proposed line is 31,000 acres. This railway proposal was considered by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Railways recently, who reported on 1st October last that it was not expedi.ent to extend the Thorpdale broadgauge line into the West Tarwin valley, pending the return of Mr. Kernot, who may be able as the results of his inquiries abroad, to suggest some cheaper met·hod' of railway construction which would considerably lessen the carpital expenditure, and thus make the Thorpdale to West Tarwin Bridge extension worthy of con-sideration as a developmental railway. Honorable members will be pleased to hear that Mr. Kernot arrived yesterday in Sydney, after a very rough passage, and he will come on to Melbourne next week. I am sure that, although Mr. Sheeran has done very valuable work in his absence, we shall be glad to see lVfr. Kernot back with us again.
The motion was agreed to·.,
Foodstuffs ancl [22 DECEMBER .• 1914.1 Oommodities Bill. 511
SEED ADVANCES BILL. This Bill was returned from the Legis
lative Council with a message intimating that, on the consideration of the Bill in Committee, the Council suggested that the Legislative Assembly should amend the Bill by the addition of certain words to clause "10.
Mr. LA '''SON (Minister of Lands).-The, amendment suggested by the Council is an addition to clause 10. There is authority in clause 5 to enable mortgagees, whether trustees or not, to consent to a mortgage to the Government taking priority over their own seeurity. In clause 10 there is a restriction of the rights of mortgagees during the period t,he money is due to the Government in respect to the advance. They are not entitled to seize, or distrain on any crop unles.c; the mortgagor has fir&t paid the amount due under the Act. There is no expressed authority given for the payment of that amount, and certain difficulties might. ~ arise. The amendment suggest,ed by the Council is the addition of the following new su b-cla use: -
For the purposes of this section all persons or corporations (whether trustees or not) being mortgagees, lessors, or landlords, are hereby authorized to make such payment to the Board as aforesaid. I move---
That the amendment suggested by the Legislative Council be made in the Bill.
The motion was agreed to, and the Bill· was ordered to· be returned to the Legislative Council with a message intimating the decision of the House.
FOODSTUFFS AND COMMODITIES BILL.
Mr. MACKINNON (Attorney-General) moved the second reading or this Bill. He said-Honorable members will recollect that we passed two Bills dealing with the control of foodstuffs and commodities. One of them has been somewhat prominently before the public, and been the subject of a good d·eal of remark in this House and elsewhere. This Bill, however, now befere the House has not been so much referred to. The object of this Bill continuinO' the original Act is to enable a Board in this State to ascertain by means of inquiries, whiCh it is able to direct aU over the place, where the various supplies of fcoq are. Whatever criticism may have been levelled against the other measure, I do not think there
is auv doubt that this Act was thoroughly effective. Anyone wuo looks at the files in tlle Library, winch were placed en the table there at the instance of the honorable member for North Melbeurne, v;ill see what a large amount of information was got together by means of this Act. That information was most valuable for ascertaining where the various commodities which it was desirable to hav·e soine knowledge of were located. and the work of the Prices Board must have been enormously facilitated by the disclosures that were lnade. It was owing to that information being SO afforded that the Board, no doubt, ,vere enabled to realize how the State was situated with regard to these various commodities, and to- make their recommendations accordingly. I think it is almost a pity that this information was not made available for the public at an earlier date. I found tha.t some millers were able te get the information, while others were not. If that information had been put in a tabulated form and made more available, it would to a very large extent have allayed the ·excitement the public suffered from in connexion with these two measures. Of course, from the way things are new, this measure is not se important, but it will enable the Board to carryon their inquiries from time to time. As we propose to ask Parliament to continue the other measure, I think it would be extremely desirable tha.i. this should be passed, whether the other be accepted or not. This Bill practically came from the Commonwealth Government, and I think that in almost the same way it has boon enacted in all the States. I think we should continue it until the 30th April, 1915, and no longer.
Mr. H. McKENZIE (Rodney).-Does it mean that these returns will have to be made again?
Mr. MACKINNON.-If asked for by the Board. They have been asked for in certain cases. If henorable members look at the file in the Library they will see that on 4th December the Board asked certain persons to furnish returns, and these returns were furnished and gave valuable information as te where ~heat was.
The motion was agreed to.
The Bill was then read a second time, and afterwards passed through its remaining stages.
512 [ASSEMBLY. ] Goods Bill.
PRICE OF GOODS BILL. Mr. MACKINNON (Attorney-Gene
ral) moved the second reading of this Bill. He said-This Bill, of course, I recognise is a more serious proposition than the one we have just passed. I think I should state the Government's reasons for asking Parliament to continue the Price of Goods Act, which expires at the end of this month. When the measure was passed war had just broken out. The whole world, financial and .commercial, was in a state of great unrest, a.nd all over the British-speaking wocld measures' were taken with the view of preventing any undue happenings t.hrough the existence of the war conditions, and all the Australian States passed measures of a similar kind t.o this. The main object of this Bill was to prevent the cornering of any food, ·)r the withholding of it from use by a.ny portion of the community, opportunities for doing that being afforded by the possible financial trouble or commercia.l t.roubles which might proceed from the war. The effect of this gigantic war, with such an enormous area involved, could hal'dly be understood by the people at tha.t time. Ther-e was a gen&al feeling that there should be some sort of security, and all the States a.nd New Zealand also passed somewha.t similar measures. The measures were not l'lll drafted in the same language, and the procedure in different cases varied. Some of the States took the power, which we did not, to seize the .goods which came under the head of food from the holders. We contented ,ourselves with pena.lizing with very heavy penalties those who either demanded more than the price to be fixed by the regulating Boa.rd, or refused to sell or deal in the particular commodity under consideration. Much has been said about there being no necessity for continuing a measure of this sort at the present time. One has to admit that the condition of excitement. which did exist some months ago, has passed away, the people having become rooigned to the war, which they believe will be successfully wag-ed by ourselves and those allied with us. That condition of excitement does not now exist, and there has been produced among the somewhat stolid British race under all the circumstances a feeling of security as to the present position of affairs, and of eonfi.-
dence that we shall come through all right, and that nothing very abnormal will happen. In regard to this measure, I may say its counterpart in South . ..Australia never' came into operation at all. It was not thought necessary to bring it into operation. In New South \Vales it did, and I think it did also in some of the other StateSi, as in Queensland, where a similar measure was operated with a great deal of detail. The question is, Does such a state of circumstances exist now 1 Ha ve we such an abnormal condition of war as to justify a measure of this kind, which is adnlittedly a war measure ~ Until the war is over, you can never tell what turns it may take; and if the measure was justified then it is justified in this sense-that the difficulty which it was anticipated might arise at that time may arise in the future, thr.ough some unexpected turn of fortune, Dr through new alliances, which may prove adverse to what we believe will be the ultimate end of this great struggle. For this reason I think it would 00 prudent for P.ac liament to continue this measure. Ofoour3e, we are very mucll cooler than we were three or four months ago. I think everybody realizes now that we have, to use an ordinary phrase, the thick end of the stick, and that it is the gentlemen at the other end of the stick who are in trouble. But it is possible that trouble might arise which would create a difficult position, and expose the people to conditions which could be prevented and l"egulated by this particular measure. The other point I should like to draw attention to is this: If there was ground for passing this measure at that particular time, it is reasonable that· it should be continued now. With regard to the merits of the measure itself, I should like to say a word or two upon that, because there has been a grea.t deal of criticism which I think has been hardly fair. It seems to' me that a great doo,l of the trouble which arose, and a certain amount of the pu hlie excitement which was caused, was due to the action of the Board, and the Government combined, in suddenly raising the price limit on our greatest food commodity. I would remind honorable members that there were great reasons if that was to be done that it should be done early. Some capital was made out of that being done after the elections.
Price of [22 DECEMBER, 1914 . .1 Goods Bill. 513
I think if it had been done before the elections, and had captured the farmers' vote, it would have been more open to criticism. Done as it was, it had this justificat.ion: Before the change was made from 4s. 9d. to 58. 6d. a. good many of the blowing people went out to the brmers r and offered them a price a little better thaD. 48. 9d., with the vi.ew of getting the difference between the price they gave and the price that they thought would be fixed in a day or two.
Mr. OMAN .-This will be used in the same way.
Mr. MACKINNON.-It may not be necessary to fix the price, but there are contingencies which might arise out of the war which would make it desirable that prices should be fixed. That was the reason which weighed with the Government. The holders of wheat, who were now almoot wholly the farmers., especially in regard to new season's wheat, were placed at a disadvantage, and many of them found themselves losers of a considerable amount of pro.fit. I think the very suddenness with which the change was made, abolishing the price, upset the people at the time; but I think now, when the feeling with regard to the action of the Government has died down, it is recognised that, although the cost of our staple food has gone up to an unusually high price, the greater part of the advance, so far as the new season's wheat is concerned, has gone to the producers. vVith regard to the working of the measure, I do not know that any of the other States have takeu any proceedings. I hav:e not been able to ascertain whether they have. It seems that only in this State was provision made for prosecuting people under this measure. The Board were able to obtain a great deal of valuable information that was not in the possession of the public. When various cases were brought before me, I investigated every case, as fa,r as I could. On some, I employed police and d-etectives. On several others, I employed some of our clerks, and capable lega.l men at the Crown Depart.ment. Every case was investigated. The first 30rt of case which came up was the case of a miller-there were several of them who had been caught short by the crisi~trying to get wheat. They only went to twO' or three of the very large holders of wheat. I was very soon satisfied on inquiry that these holders were selling wheat at. a satisfactory price. The class
of people who held one~third, roughly, of the whole of the wheat of the State did get rid of nearly all their wheat. What they retained was not really at their di.s .. posal without consulting other people, who had an interest in it. How much interest they had in it it was difficult to discover. The next move was by country mi.1le'rs, who were naturally desirous of carrying on their works in various parts of the State. Some of them found out through the Prices Board where this wheat was in the country. They made complaints to the Crown Law Department, and to the Board, and drew attention to these people who held wheat, and who, they alleged, refused to- sell. It was not always very plain that they had refused. Some of the refusals were in casual conversation, and others were vague aIlld indefinite, and it seemed that they had done nothing which would bring them within the Act. The procedure I adopted in regard to these people was to write to them, and before prosecuting gIve them a chance of explaining \Ve asked them to explain what appeared to be a breach of the· Act. They nearly all answered, and they pointed out that the wheat they held was only a small quantity, and that they were almost certain to require it for the next year's sowing. In view of the situation, it did not seem desirable that these people should be prosecuted, but a great number of theI? did sell after receiving that letter. It IS
very desirable that, while keeping the miller going, we should not force all the wheat into consumption, and do ... stroy for the purposes of seed !l
large quantity of wheat which is in the hands of these farmers, or under theIr control in country depots. If that had beel\ done, the farmers could have come to Parliament, and said that the Government had forced them to destroy their wheat by having it turned into flour, and tha t the Government should now buy seed wheat for them. It was a matter r therefore, which had to be handled, as I soon discovered, with· a great deal of caution. I have no doubt that in some cases men did give me misleading answers. I have no doubt whatever that some of them took advantage of the situation. They were almost entirely the smaller people, such as farmers with 1,000 bags, who wanted 500 bags for themselves and their neigh bours. and were prepared to hold the balance in the hope of getting a little more than 4s. 9d. I to-day authorized a prosecution, where it seemed to .me
514 Price of [ASSEMBLY. ] Goods Bill.
that the man had flouted the Act.. It was in connexion with the case which has been mentioned. I do not know where the leader of the Opposition got his information, but I do not think that the Crown Law Department was quite fairly treated with regard to, that. I do not say that the honorable member is responsible. Mr. Butcher made his complaints. He is a gentleman who writes somewhat lengthy letters, and he was very indignant. But Mr. Butcher and his son were aware that the detectives and the police were investigating that case at least a week before the letters were presented. I do not imagine that he allowed the leader of the Opposit,ion to know what was going on, but it would have been only fair if he had said that the Crown Law authorities had moved III that case, and that, on the 2nd December, he was interviewed by the police, and his evidence taken with the yiew of a prosecution. That matter, apparently, has come to a head, and the case can go forward now. That pretty well exhausts the class of case that came along for consideration. Some may say that the farmers should not have held that wheat, as the new season's wheat was to come in, but the answer to t.hat is that the new season's wheat may not be in the hands of these same people. We know for a fact that a large portion of the wheat in the area around Gheringhap to Maroona is being largely used by ]Ylallee fa,rmers, but in some other districts there are very small holdings of wheat by farmers or on farmers' account. Those are the facts of the administration of this measure, It appears to IlS that certain individuals must have got out fairly well. I imagine that bakers who have contracts for the supply of flour at about £8 a ton, and are selling bread at 8d, a 4-1b. loaf, must be doing very well. But I am told that this is not universal. I am informed that a great deal of bread is being sold at less than 8d. per loaf, :tnd what profit is going will either go to the farmers or to the millers, who hold considerable quantities, or the bakers. I should think the bakers are probably the people who are doing the best out of the situation.
Mr: PI.AIN.-There is one thing certam, and that is that the farmers will not get much.
Mr. Mackinnon.
Mr. MACKINNON.-That is not the conclusion I came to from the figures which were laid before me.
Mr. HOGAN.-But you did not obtain particulars as to how much wheat the farmers have sold for future delivery.
Mr. MACKINNON. - There is an enormous list of farmers who held fairly large parcels-parcels of 250 bags, for instance.
1\11'. HOGAN.-A lot of them have sold tlus season's crop for forward delivery at 3s, 2d. and 3s. 6d. -
1\11'. MACKINNON .-In the districts that I know about, there has been extremely little of that done. The wheat is held by the farmers, and is -being sold by the farmers.
Mr. HOGAN.-The statement sent out by merchants in Melbourne showing that nearly 1,000,000 bushels have been purchased in New South Wales, at 3s. 6d. and 3s. 2d., shows that much more than that quantity has been bought in Victoria.
Mr. MACKINNON.-All one could gather from the file of correspondence was that 'the farmerS! seemed to have the greater part of the wheat; and I belie,ve that, of the present harvest, a very large proportion is in the hands of the farmers, Honorable members who represent wheatgrowing districts will know more about that than I can. I could only form my conclusion from the figures and facts that came before me. Another effect of the raising of the price of wheat should not be overlooked. The State of Vic.toria was short of wheat. New South Wales and South Australia both closed their railways against us, and I think that one of those States, at any rate, was prepared to deal with Victoria on the basis of Victoria acknowledging the shortage" and having to import at a loss. The immediate effect of giving the market its natural play wa~ this: Enormous quantities of Riverina wheat poured into Victoria. A return which I got the other day shows that the quantity of wheat despatched by rail from Echuca, Cobram, Tocumwal, Yarrawonga, Wahgunyah, and Albury, between the 1st of this month and tlle 18th, was 78,364 bags. That is all New South Wales wheat, which was carted by farmers into Victoria and placed on the rail here. I may say that it came under my notice that this process was going on before the 1st December, because some
P.rice of [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Goods Bill. 515
of the gentlemen who are buyers of wheat on the border inquired whether the wheat brought from New South Wales would be subject to Victorian law, or subject to limitation as to price. On the stations I have mentioned, on the 18th December, there were 23,160 bags of New South Wales wheat. In addition to that, at Yarrawonga, the amount estimated to come forward was 4,000 bags "if not blocked." I fancy some of it must have got in, because the blocking only took place on Saturday, or Monday. The estimate was up to the 18th December. In addition to that, a local miller at Y arrawonga had secured 3,000 bags of New South Wales wheat. The report from Yarrawonga was that New South Wales wheat was coming in freely, and was likely to continue to do so. Then 900 bags additional were being loaded that day at Albury. Altogether. between the 1st December and the 17th December, about 320,000 bushels of wheat came across to our railways out of New South Wales; so the raising of the price of whea.t had, 8.t any rate, the effect of bringing into the market here a very considerable quantity of outside wheat.
Mr. J. VV. BILLSON (Fitzroy).-That was due to the difference in the standard prices in the two States.
Mr. MACKINNON.-As honorable members will recollect, the price of wheat in Victoria was raised very shortly after the 26th Novemb'er. As a matter of fact, the previous rate in Victoria-5s. 6d. a bushel-would attract New South Wales wheat to Victoria, because the New South Wales price was 4s. 2d. Our price has been higher than the New South Wales price all through. South Australia prohibited wheat from coming here from that State. As a matter of fact, some contracts had been made by merchants here for the purchase of wheat iu South Australia. They had actually bought the wheat, but that wheat is being held now in South Australia. All through the administration of the Act, I had the assistance of a very able young member of our Bar, Mr. Macfarlan. At tIie request of the Prices Board, he was given to them as an assistant. He is one of the most capable and promising young men at our Bar. He has taken a great interest in this matter, and has studied it very closely. I was in constant touch with him, and from him I heard what evidence was being taken by the Board,
and the general trend of affairs, so far as the Board was concerned. He has pointed out two or three points in which' the Act is weak. At. any rate, there is a weakness in one place, and we propose to remedy that. I do not know that ,the other matters are weaknesses, but there are sl~gbt difficulties about them. If honorable members look at the Act they will find-I do not say that the Court would take this view-that it is possible for the prosecutor to be put to considerable trouble to prove that the person who had refused to sell wheat to him was entitled to sell it.
Mr. lVIENZIES.--"-YOU refer to section 8? Mr. MACKINNON.-Yes. The de
fence that a man might put up is that he was not entitled to sell the wheat which he refused to sell, or that he had not more than sufficient to carry himself and his family along for more than three months. Mr. Macfarlan also pointed out that it is doubtful whet.her seed wheat comes within the terms of the Act. ,As honorable members know, the price of seed wheat is about 6d. per bushel more than the price of the ordinary commercial article. We discovered that a great deal of the wheat held by merchants, or collectors of wheat, undoubtedly o.n account of farmers, was held on a sort of warehouse-keeper's certificate, or dock warrant, which made it extremely difficult to know who was the person entitled to sell it. To clear that up we propose, to throw on the person w 10 is attacked the necessity of showing that he is not the person entitled to sell. I think it is desirable that we should make this one amendment of the Act. "Tith regard to the effectiveness of the Act, it does not give the power which the Acts in some of, the other States do. It does not give power to the Government to seize wheat. I venture to submit that it is very doubtful whether Parliament would bave given t,he Government here power to seize wheat in the way that power has been given to the New South Wales Government. I am convinced that the Act can be worked out on its present lines. The origin of the Act was the New Zealand Cornering Act. which stood the test of pretty hard litigation in New Zealand. It got tluough the Full Court there, and was successfully used against the Colonial Sugar Company. The design of the Act was not altogether untried. As a matter of fact, the Act has 'notbeen put into force here for reasons which I have indicated, but
516 Price of [ASSElVIBL Y.] Goods Bill.
there are at the present time one or two prosecutions pending which will show what the value of the Act is. Whether the Act is continuid or not, there is a provision in it which enables any offences against the Act, which occurred before its expiration, to be prosecuted afterwards. The one a-:r.endment that we propose to make is contained in clause 2. After discussion with Mr. Macfarlan I have come to the conclusion that c1ause 2 of the Bill can be improved a little, and· I am going to circulate a· clause which I think will be a litt.le more effective tha'n clause 2. I thought that clause 2 was strong enough at the time it was submit.ted to me, but I think it could be made stronger. It. should be made perfectly plain that a person who refuses to sell wheat at .the price :fixed by the Board should have the burden thrown on him of proving that the wheat is not his. If the Act is to be used at all in the future, I think that an amendment of that sort should be made. I will be very glad to allswer any questions when the Bill is in Committee.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I scarcely know whether the Government are serious or not in proposing to continue the Price of Goods Act for a further period. I feel that the experience we have had is not sufficient· to enable us to form an opinion as to whether the Act is a good one or not. I do not think' that it has had a trial, let alone a fair trial. The Prices Board was brought into e.l{ist-ence, but so ra pid were the ch anges in regard, first of all, to fixing the price of wheat, then altering that price. and then abolishing the fixed price, that evidence that might have been brought together has not been brought together, and we have to take the measure upon trust. It cannot be gainsaid that many of the difficulties that opponents of the Act claim have ariSAl1 under it are not the fault of the Act at a.ll. So far as the Act being of any value to the public is concerned, we m~ght just as well have had no measure at a.ll. It has been in no sense a protection to the consumers. On the other hand, beyond a doubt it dislocated trade. It put the wheat trade in a state of turmoil and excitement, from the farmers to the large wheat-holders. Except in the case of small holders, the persons engaged in the wheat industry did not observe the prices fixed by the Board in any shape or fOfm. It is true that many of tEe farmers sold their wheat at what they thought was the
permanent price-4s. 9a. per bushel. Many of the shrewder heads, Qr those who were in the know, did not. The Attorney-General· said that by some means information as to what the Board was going to do leaked out. That is a· very significant state ll€nt. Here was a Board appointed by tlle GovernInent with power to exercise functions of a very farreaching character. Certain secrecy was necessary if the decisions of the Board were to be of any value, and if everybody was to be· given a fair cha.nce. Precautions should have been taken so that findings of the Board would not leak out before they were made public.
Mr. MACKINNON.-You forget that witnesses had to be examined. They know pretty well what is in the mind of the Board.
1\11'. ELMSLIE.-At the most they could only guess. Sometimes a shrewd witness can guess correctly, and sometimes th'Ose who read the evidence can guess correctly; but the Attorney-General said the information leaked out.
Mr. MACKINNON.-I do not know that I used those words.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I took the words down.
lVIr. MACKINNoN.-They got·to know. Mr. ELMSLIE.-Then the trouble
commenced. . People would not sell their wheat. The honorable gentleman said that the Government and the Board were working together. First of all, they fixed the price at 4s. 9d. per bushel, and afterwards at 5s. 6d. Then when the Government found that their gun had mis'fired -that the Act was not answering the purpose for which it was passed-the Board quickly got to work and fixed a higher price for wheat.
Air. MACKINNON .~The Government never interfered in any way with what the Board were doing. .
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do uot say for a moment that the Government brought an y undue pressure to bear.
Mr. MACKINNON .~ We . did not bring any pressure Ilt all to bear. .
Mr. ELMSLIE .~I will content myself with sa.ying that a member of the Government was also a member of the Board.
Mr. MAClUNNoN.-He kept his own counsel.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I know that the . last declsion ·of the Board wa·s made known to'the Government very quickly, and the Government were very quick to adopt it. Thes2 ~.re the facts so far as I understand
Price of [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Goods Bill. 517
them. 1 do not want to deal any further with that phase of the matter. The Attorney-General has told us that from the returns furnished under the Foodstuffs and Commodities Act he was satisfied that the large holders had got rid of thei~ wheat, and that there was nobody ho.Lcilllg very large quantIties of wheat. I beg to differ from the honorable gentleman. In spite of the returns submitted under the }"'oodstuffs and Commoditles Act, I am still of the opinion that the Attorney-General's statement is not correct.. I do not say the honorable gentleman wilfully made an in. corf(~ct statement. The people who have manipulated the whe~t market right from tile hrst are not above turnishmg evidence to show that they have done sometluug which, in my opinlOn, they have not aone. When the wiloie story becomes known, we will find that some of the large holders of wheat did not get rid of it m the way that the returns would lead one to believe. vVe hear a good deal about the follies of the New South \Vales, Government, and we have their shocking example held up to us with regard to certam matters. .tiut what are the facts ~ The New eouth Wales Government appointed a Board, and that Board fixed the price of wheat at 4s. 2d. per bushel. Our Board fixed the price at 4s. 9d. per bushel for a time. Afterwards they alteted the price to 5s. 6d. per bushel. The facts are that the New South "Vales legislation and administration protected the
of the people, and robbing them under the extroaordinary conditions obtaining. The honorable gentleman said-
It would be a terrible state of affairs in Australia, with all its foodstuffs, if it were found that the articles we required to mainta.in ourselves went to other ports of the world.
The honorable gentleman went on to say that only scoundrels would seize the opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of the people in time of war.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACocK.-Hear, hear! Mr. OMAN (to Mr. Elmslie).-If you
made the statements you are making in London you would have the people in panic.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I know as much about Loudon as the honorable member does. That is very little, or nothing.
Mr. J. W. BILLSON (FitzToy).-Lloyd George has made stronger statements.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-However, the fact is that in New South Wales bread is cheaper than it is in Victoria.
Mr. V'T. K. SMI'l'H (Dwl1das).-Why do not you teU us the price in New South \Vales?
1\1r. ELMSLIE.-Go and find out. An HONORABLE MEMBER.-Is not that
because the New South Wales Government took the wheat at 5s. 7
Mr. ELMSLIE.-Yes j they protected the consumer by seizing the old wfleat that was in the hands .of the speculators who were buying it up in order to enrich themselves at the expense of the people in
consumer-- t.ime of war. lVIr. OM.AN.-And robbed the produce}', Mr. }.{CLEoD.-The speculators have Mr. ELMSLIE.-The producer was not not got this year's crop.
robbed, because the wheat was not in Mr. ELMSLIE.-Consequently the the l;ands of the producer to any lare-e
v New South Wales Government. are doing extent. The price of bread is lower in 1 t h fl" New South Wales than it ig in Victoria. no larrn 0 t e growers 0 t 11S year s
crop. The New South Wales Government Mr. W. K. SMITH (Dundas).-What is were dealing with the old wheat, and not
the price of bread in New South Wales? with the new wheat. The new wheat from Mr. ELMSLIE.-Find out. New South Wales seems to be coming into Mr. W. K. SMITH (Dllndas).-You will Victoria.
find that it is the same as it is here. Mr. CARLISLE.-That has been stopped :Mr. ELl\fSLIE.-It is not the same. now.
In discussing these questions, it is right Mr. OMAN .. -They are very a.nxious to that we should bear in mind the tw-o fac- cart it over the border. tors operating-the war and the drought. Mr. ELM:SLIE .-Of course they are.
1\11'. OMAN.-You were speaking of very anxious to bring it over the border, New South Wales when I interjected. because we have a complacent GovernThe New South 'Vales Government took ment here that prof~ses one thing and the wheat, which was worth 6s. 9d. a does another. bushel in London, for 55. Mr. CARLISLE.-They want to bring it
1\I1r. ELMSLIE.-\Ve must bear in where they c~n get a fair price. mind what this legislation was brought in Mr. ELMSLIE.-Does the honorable for. To use the Premier's words. it was member reckon that the present price is a to prevent speculators takingadva.ntage. fair price 1
518 Price of lASSEMHLY.) GOOdi Bill.
1\1r. CARLII:>LE.-Yes. Mr. ELlVl;3LlE.-The honorable mem
ber would say anything after thav. An HONORABLE MEMBER.-Is the pre
sent price paying the farmers'~ Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do not think it is
paying them in many cases. It is not a question of whether it is paying them or not. W'e are told that the, price of wheat is fixed in London, and not according to the law of supply and demand in our own country.
Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper GoulllZll·n).-It cannot be fixed in London when we have not a crop here.
Mr. ELMSL1E.-Then it is not fixed in London.
Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-It is only fixed in London when we hav,e something to e~port.
M.r. ~JL1\1SLIE.-Then sometimes the price is fixed in London, and sometimes it is not.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-It is always fixed in London.
1\11'.. ELMSLIE.-What 'are we to believe ~
Mr. CARLISLE.-W1!at do you say ~ Mr. ELMSLIE.-I say it has been
fixed by the speculators and cornerers of wheat, in this case. It. is not altogether true at any time to say that the price of whe:tt is fixed in London.
Mr. BAIRD.-It is governed by London, though.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-It i, governed, but it i::; not fixed by London, because yon would have to eliminate altogether the important factor of our local consumption. The local consumption has something to do with the price fixed in London. Is it any good going on with the measure ~ Is it worth while ~ Will it be administered after it has been passed ~ That is what I want to know. When this matter was last being discussed several honorable members said that the Government had degraded Parliament, and they were not very far wrong. We carried a Bill, and after that we did nothing but express by our actions our helplessness. The passing of the measure did infinitely more harm than good, in my opinion. It landed some people who could ill afford it.
Mr. OMAN.-This' Bill will do the same. Mr. ELMSLIE.-Is the honorable
member going to vote for the Bill ~ Mr. OMAN.-No. Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do not think it is
worth while seriously debating the mea-
sure. What chance has it got of passing at this hour of the session ~ I feel tha"t, a number of honorable members on the Ministeral side of the HOUSfl will have a few words to say about the Bill. vVe met early this morning, and I thought we were going to finish to-night.
Mr. TOUTCHER.-Do not draw blood. Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do. not want t()
draw blood. lVIr. OMAN .-1 am anxious to know
whether you are going to support the, measure.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-Wlty? Mr. M. K. McKENZIE (Upper (j'ou,l
oll/',").-The honorable member wants to know whether he can get. your help todefeat the Bill.
1\1r. ELMSLIE.-1\1embers in the Ministerial corner have watched the attitudeof the Opposition too often and too long. \Ve are not going to be so easily caught as we have been in the past. Weare' not
,going to run every time the Corner holds, up a finger. The Attorney-General, in introducing the Bill, was apologetic all the time. The honorable member for Hampden should take some comfort from that .. The Attorney-General said he was' going to give us some reasons for continuing tbe Act, but he was apologizing aIr along the line. He told us tbat the original measure was introduced in a t.imeof excitement. He said that that excitement has died away, and that the stolid' Britisher is once more taking things ill' an ordinary everyday fashion. The honorable ,gentleman said that the war is not troubling us very much, and also. that the Act has stood the test in New Zealand. It, has not stood any test hereyet. It has never been tried or administer,ed. I would like to inform the Attorney-General about 1\11'. Butcher. Mr. Butcher did not enter into communication with me at all. I do not know him. I never had a line from him. I did not get the letters I read from him.
Mr. MACKINNoN.-He ought to havetold von the facts.
M;. ELMSLIE.-He did not know theletters were in my possession.
Mr. MACKINNON .-He is a good fighter. 1\Jr. ELMSLIE.-He would need to be ..
He had not only to look after his own rights. but had to do what the· AttorneyGeneral should have done. He had to' fight hard in order to get some wheat that was refused him. I ask the Premier is it
.any use going on wjth the Bill in a serious
Price of [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 519
fashion ~ Is it likely t.() do any good if it is passed ~ We were told that the original measure was brought in as a war measure in times of excitement. A week or two .ago we were told that war conditions were not operating. If it was brought in be.cause it was a war measure, and war conditions do not now exist, what is the use .of going on with the Bill, more especially if it will not be administered, even if it is passed. I do uot like to be humbugged in this way. Has the measure just been brought in to kill time, or is there another elect.ion coming on in a few weeks ~ The A r,qus said that the Bill was '~rought in originall~ as a tactical move. Is this another tactical move ~ If so, what is behind it ~
Mr. OMAN.-I do not think it is much good to the Government.
Mr. ELMSLIE.-I do not know. The Government got back, and it could not have hurt them very much. If a)l election came on now the result would be a good deal diffe,rent. However, that is only a matter o"f surmise. I am not taking this Bill seriously. I do not think it will pass, and it is too hot for us to sit here playing the political goat, and attempting to pass Bills which,. if they are placed on the st.atute-book, will not he administered.
~t[r. CARLISLE.-I am very much of the same opinion as the leader of the Opposition. It. is of no use passing this Bill if there is no intention of administering it, and I do not think that there is any 'Government likely to be in office which will be game to administer the measure in its true spirit. The Bill proposes to give power to fix the price of wheat at a figure less than the natural market price. If that is not looting somebody, then I do not know wha.t the meaning of looting is. Practically the whole of the wheat is now in the hands of the farmers, and we have soon what has happened across the border in New South Wales, where they have seized the wheat at 5s. per bushel, and propose to sell it at 6d. per bushel more. They will very likely make a nice profit out of it. This year the farmers have got one bag where, in an ordinary year, they would have had six. If th& price were six times the ordinary price t.he farmers would be getting about the game return as usual. I do not suppose there are many wheat-growers in the country who can get through wit1lOut serious loss, and for this Par-
liament to rob them of a portion of their returns is a very serious matter. The leader of the Opposition objected to the statement that the price here is fixed by t.he London price. I do not tl1ink there is any doubt that, as a general rule, the price of whe,at in Victoria is fixed by the London price. If we have more wheat than we require, the price is the London price, less the cost of sending it there. If we have less than we require, the price is the London price, plus the cost of bringing it here. At any rate, if it is not governed by the London price, it is the price ruling in the outside world.
Mr. HOGAN.-The price of .wheat is 4s. Sd. in Chicago.
Mr. CARLISLE.-If that, is so, it will only take 9d. per bushel to bring it here. If there is any profit in bringing it. to Victoria, the merchants will fetch it here. However, should this measure be put on the st,atute-book, I do not think there will be any me-rchant who will bring cargoes to this State with the prospect of selling the wheat at less than it costs him. The Bill will defeat the object of providing the people with a cheap loaf of bread. It seems strange that when the price of wheat was fixed at 4s. 9d. per bushel the price of bread was not altered. What good did that do 1'0 the masses? Yet it was generally presumed that the me·asure was in the interests of the masses. Th-e Ministry seemed to take the view that it was justifiable to rob the producer in the interests of the mRsses, but it did not do the masses any good at all, because the price of bread remains the same as when the price of wheat was fixed at 4s. 9d. a bushel. If it is justifiable to fix the price of wheat at so much less than the market, value, why stop at whe·at 1 What about gold 1 Could we not fix the price, of gold at £2 lOs. per oz., so that the people might use it for purchasing bread ~
:Mr. HANNAH.~There is no analogy. Mr. CARLISLE.-They are both got
from the earth by labour. I cannot s,ee any difference. If you fix the price of one article, why not fix the price of all ~
Mr. HOGAN.-The price of gold is fixed. Mr. CARLISLE.-'Vho fixes it ~ All
gold is not of the' same price Some gold is \vorth 11'1Or6o than other gold. Although it has not a fluctuating value like wheat, still it is gained from the earth by the labour of the producers, and why should those who produce it get off when the man who produces wheat is looted of a
520 Price of [ASSEMBLY.]: Goods Bill.
portion of his profits 1 It is most unjus-tifiable to. do. anything like that.
Mr. HAN.NA.1if.-It. will sink you if you go in.to the economic question of gold.
l\!lir. CARLISLE.-Well, what about potatoes and onions, and other produce, which enter largely into human consumption ~ Why not :fix the price of such things at one-third less than the natural price ~ However, it is very unfortunate that we have done what we did. From beginning to end the whole thing has been a muddle. The arbitrary fixing of the price has ruined men both in Victoria and New Sout,h Wales. What might have- been done here to save the situation was not attempted,_ although it was done in: New South \Val~i, where they calltCelled aU the contJ!acts prior to the war. The result is that peopLe who PUT
chased wheat over there, and sold wheat hoere have to. find the difference for the pu:r:chasers in V ietoria. If the same thing had been done here, it would have had the unanim('}us support of this House, but the Ministry have not seen fit to take on anything in that direetion. On the first CDccasion, when we fixed a price here, I f01lll.rmd that, in my elleetorate, a fair quantity of wheat was held by farmers who had kept it sinee the last harvest, hoping that they would make a little out of the rise later on. Of course, they did not foresee the war. When the opportunity came to the farme-rs, however, it was taken out of their hands by tIle Government. They have been practically robbed of Is. or Is. 3d. on the wheat which they held from last yea-r. Thev hold the whole of the whectt- of this year's liarvest, and r think it would be a bad principle to interfere with the natural market value of the wheat.
Mr. TouTcHER.-This Bill is for all foodstulIs.
Mr. CARLISLE.-I do not think it is intended by the- Government to use it at all. Wheat is' the only thing they are likely to touch.
Mr. TOUTCHER.-It has been used for jams.
Mr. CARLISLE-.-I understand that the price fixed hy the Board for jam has not been proclaimed by the Government. If you fix the price of anything, then f:.x th8 price of everything. The price of iron and wire went up as soon as the war broke out, yet the importers were able to sen at the enhanced price, and
maJre money out of the war. Tlw onI J people who could mot make mon-ey out of the war were the producers. Every time they are the people to suffer. I intend to. call for a division on the second reading of the Bill, and I hope honorable members will support the attitude whieh 1 take up.
Mr. hOGAN.-Like the leader of the Opposition, I do not know whe-ther to support the· Bill or not. I would like the Bill if I were sure that it would be administered. I au ppose we will g€ v
better results in future. I rose to deal with a couple of aspects of the que,stion which have been overlooked by some speakers. The honorable member for Hampden interjected to the efiect that the l'i ew South. Wales <Government has purchased wheat at 5s., thereby preventing the New South Wales farmers getting 6'&. 9d., the London price.
Mr.. OMAN .-The Premier of New South Wales said so.
Mr. nOGAN.-What justification has the honorable member for saying that 6s. 9d. is the London price 1
Mr. OMAN.-It is 68. 10d. to-day. Mr. nOGAN.-During the considera
tion in t1re Western Australian Parliament of a similar Bill, although it went further than ours, actually providing for the purchase of wheat, the leader of the new Country party there, Mr. James Gar(liner, is reported, in the TVest A U8-
i1·alian,. to have said-The clear intention of the Bill was to take
p0ssession of those things characterized as foodstuffs and grain in the interests of the people of the State, and in order thilt they might be apportioned as the Governmeut required to keep the millers and farmers going. The positiGn in the State was, particularly serious, e~ pecially if any export was permitted. The only way they could prevent the export of flOUI
was by the introduction of such a measure, so that the G(')Vernment would not have to import, a.nd conseq:uently lessen- the amount available for farmers. Some people thought they were going to have enough grain to meet the requirements of the miller and seeding purposes, and for the &mall poultry' farmer. It looked t\S though they would require 2,900,000 bushels to- meet all obligations, and the general impression WUiS that it would take the State all its time to garner that amQunt of grain. Then there was the question of charter to ~e considered. The dift'erelWes of prices prevailing in the other States could be explained by local' conditions, but they wanted' to recognise the position in this State. Bie: thOllght, in the first place, they would be perfectly justified in fixing prices at parity in London. The latest figures of market value in London he had were 6s. 4td-. per bushel for
Pr'i~ of [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Goods Bill. [}21
wheat. It would cost Is~ 3d. to send to London, so that they ,vould practically he getting 5s. Id. per bushel in this State. He ventured to say that if it had not been for the action of the Government in assisting farmers, from 60 to 75 per cent. would not be able to buy a bushel of wheat. The statement made by that gentleman was that the London pa,rity of Australian wheat was 58. Id.
Mr. OMAN.-There has been an alteration since 11th December.
"Mr. HOGAN.-Let. me quote a statement made by Mr. Tudor, the Minister of Customs, in the Federal Parliament on 12th December. In the Age of 14th December, Mr. Tudor in moving an amendment of the Tanff, revoking the duty on wheat, is reported t-o have said-
At the present time the price of wheat in Chicago was from 48. Sd. to 4s. 9d. a. bushel. It would cost a.bout Is. per bushel to bring it here. The equivalent of the Chicago price, after paying the freight here, would be 5s. Sd.
M~. OMAN.-Why is .it suggested that a shipment of Australian wheat shOUiit be recalled from London, where it is worth 6s. 9d. or 6s. 10d.1 It shows that wheat is going to rise in Australia.
Mr. HOGAN.-A lot of funny things are proved in the honorable member's mind. We know that the prices fixed by the Boards appointed ill the Australian States show that the London parity would be a fair price. The quotation which I made from Mr. Gardiner's speech, an ex-Treasurer shows that the London parity is about 58. 1d. per bushel. I would like now to refer to the memorandum sent by merchants to honorable members. The object of the memorandum is set out as-
To ask the Government to introduce legislation imlllediately to adjust all new wheat and flour contracts on the same basis as now exists in New South Wales, or on the basis of market values at the outbreak of the war. Here are the merchants asking Parliament to abolish those contracts, or adjust them on the basis existing in New South Wales when the war broke out. They have bought this year's crop, which is something that some honorable members on the Ministerial side of the House are not prepared to admit. At the outset, it is stated in £lie memorandum-• From careful investigation it has been found that between 250,000 and 300,000 bags of ne\v wheat were purchased from farmers in New South Wales, chiefly during May, June, and July of this year, at prices varying from 3s. 2d. to 3s. 6d. per bm:hel, country rnilway stations, equivalent to 3s. 7d. to 3s. lOd .. at Sydney.
S(1.rond Sesl)iult 1914.-[19J
The hono1"abl~ member for .tIampden will realize how hard it is on the fa'rmers in New South Wales through the Government purchasing their wheat at 5s., when they had previously sold it for 3s. 2d. and 3s. Sd. It means a difference of 1s. Sd. a bushel. The consumers will not have to pay another farthing, because New South Wales farmers are getting 5s. for wheat they sold to speculators at 3s. 2d. and 3s. 6d. If :Melbourne merchants purchased this quantity of wheat in New South Wales for future delivery, how much has been purchased in Victoria ~ This quantity has been re-sold in Melbourne. That is not all that was sold by the farmers in .N ew South Wales fo;' future delivery. It is only the quantity sold for future delivery to Melbourne mel'chants. In addition, there is a vast quantity sold by New South Wales farmers to Sydney merchants for future delivery there, and not for transmission to Melbourne.
Mr. MENZIEs.-Did they ever ge·t the w hea t they purchased 1
Mr. HOGAN.-No. The New South Wales Government have cancelled all those contracts, as the honorable member knows very well. Instead of the farmers selling at from 3s. 2d. to 3s. 6d., they will get 5s., and the consumers will not have to pay any more for their bread. Instead of the speculators getting the difference in price, the farmers will get it, and the consumers will get bread no dearer than if the speculators had been allowed to get the wheat at 3s. 2d.
Mr. MENzIEs.-They will get it at the enhanced value.
Mr. HOGAN.-Do you think if the speculators got the wheat at 3s. 2d., they would have sold to the millers on that basis, or on the basis of 6s. Sd. per bushel, to which the price has been run up?
Mr. BowsER.-What would they have got if the Government left them alone 1
Mr. HOGAN.-Those who sold would have got from 3s. 2d. to 3s. 6d.
Mr. BOWSER.-They would have .got the London parity.
Mr. nOGAN.-Which is 5s. Id. Mr. CARLIsLE.-Absolute rubbish! Mr. HOGAN.-I am not a.n authority
on London parity, but I gave Mr. James Gardiner as one. I went further, a.nd quoted the statement made by Mr. Tudor, to the effect that the price in Chicago was, 4s. Sd. I am not as great an authority as the Minister of Customs.
G.22 Price of [ASSEMBLY.] Goods Bill.
An HONORABLE MEMBER.-What does he know about it 1
Mr. HOGAN.-! do not know, but I think he would get correct information before he made his statement. In moviilg to revoke the duty, he had to. have t,his information in his possession. The question I wish to. ask is-If this quantity was purchased in New South Wales from the fa-rmers for forward delivery, how much was purchased in Victoria: 7
Mr. 'vV. K. SMITH (D·ltndas}.-Practically nothing.
Mr. HOGAN.-I do not want to be a parrot and echo the question which has been asked from the Ministerial side of the House-What do you know about it 7 I think that the constituents of the honorable member for Hampden have made forward sales at less than 3s. Bd. a bushel. Tlwy have communicated with members of this House wanting to know whether they must comply with those contracts.
Mr. OMAN .-1 told you Sl>. '
Mr. nOGAN.-They wrote tOo us, and they did not write to you.
Mr. OMAN .-1 have the letters. :Mr. HOGAN.-Perhaps the honorable
member might read them to the House, and the honorable member for Dundas may know more than he knows at the present time. The memorandum which I was quoting from goes on to state-
From the farmer contracts of wheat passed through many channels, as is customary, until at the time of the outbreak of war they happened to be held by five or six Victorian and New South Wales operators.
As the, representative of a farming constituency, which, I admit, is not so mu~h interested in the' growing of wheat as other pro.ducts, I dOo no.t think it does any good to allow speculators to. buy wheat and use.it as a medium for speculation, just as they use mining shares. . They sho.uld not be permitted to' .gamble in foodstuffs.
Mr. TouTcHER.-They buy potatoes, too.
Mr. HOGAN.-I have· the same condemnation for speculation in potatoes as in wheat. Gambling in foodstuffs is, in my opinion, immoral. .
Mr. TouTcHER.-Many potato-growers would be sorry if yO.U took those men away from them.
Mr. OMAN.--Who would finance the wheat men to-day but the merchants 1
Mr. HOGAN.-Who finances the merchants but the farmers ~ Do you think
the- merchants cQome along like Santa Claus, and say, "It is Christmas time, farmer friend, do you want any money 7 If so, we will give yQou it." These merchants make their mOoney out of the farmers and cOonsumers of the country. I am absolutely Oopposed to this dealing in futures. Some hO'norable members Oon the :Ministerial side of the House do not like this explanation. Certain people are juggling with the foodstuffs of this country.
Mr. MENZIES.-Do you advocate repUdiation of contracts 7
Mr. HOGAN.-I believe that a higher Parliament than this-the Imperial Parliament-have cancelled contracts which have been altered in consequence of the. war. In this matter I have no hesitation in following the example set by the Imperia.l Parliament. I would like nOow to quote an article which appeared in the Age of 17th December, as I think it of value to the farmers, whOo may read it .in Hansard, even if they did not read it in the A,qe. It is as foilows:-
DEALING IN FUTURES. It would be a. mistake to waste sympathy
over either of the contending sections of the wheat trade. Neither the bulls nor the beal's who deal in "futures" have at any time exhibited the least concern for the consumer, who ultimately has to pay the piper, nor for the wheat-grower, who really plays an insignificant 1'ole in the piece-for very little gra.in actually clu'.J1J:{es hands hetween the parties. If, as a result of the existing 81uabble, the army of dealers which eyery seaS"f\ widens the distance between the prodllcer <l.nd the consumer, a.nd at every transaction enhances the C'ost of bread to the eater, re numerically diminished, or, better stilJ, he altogether reo moved frum the sphere of its perniciolls activities, there woul(l he some chance of honest folk coming hy their OWII.
The ple'l that operators ill wheat futures carryon in other parts of the world is not sllfficient argument for the perpetuation of the f1pecies in Australia. "Vhen the system WH~ first introduced in Melbourne wheat contracts for delivery at long disttmt dates included in some instances fl, stipulation that no wheat was to prtSS, but that settlements were to be effected on the basis between the price at which the contrads were made and the market rate on cel't~),in indicated dates ahead. Su bseq uently it wa.s decided that the contracts could not he upheld at. law, alld a new form of agreement was adopted uuder which the wheat, if demanded, was to be delivered. The revelations of the la,st few weeks, however, have made it clear that although the letter of the law is now more r-t,rictly observed, there are operators who much prefer to have cash settlemelLts U1I margins.
Now, in my opinion, this article is correct in saying that these speculators are
Price of [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Goods Bill. 523
preying on the producers and the farmer::;, Hnd are doing no good to the honest folk.
~lr. TOUTOHER.-YOU could not carry Oil the business without forward orders.
Mr. HOGAN.-I think we could carry on very well without them. The honor.a ble ~ember for Fitzroy said that argulllent corresponded to the statement that dogs could not live without fleas. Something has been said by the honorable member for Benalla about the awful consequences that would ensue if prices were fixed for potatoes. I know that some time ago the farmers endeavoured to form an a.ssociation, to be called the Waubra Farmers Association. They drew out a set of proposals, of which they .sent me a copy. Nos. 2 and 3 read-
That the Potato Growers Association appoint a Rural Producers Board to inquire into the cost of producing, marketing, and grading of potatoes.
The Board to have power to fix and award the minimum price for the different grades and classes of potatoes, to he regulated according to the cost of producing, marketing, and grading, &c., under reasonable working hours and ruling wages.
I am not much concerned about that organization, but I quote it as a fact as far as potatoes are concerned, about which' the:, Attorney-General is so much concerned. Some of the people have asked the Government to appoint a Board ~\) fix the minimnm price of potatoes.
}fr. MACKINNON .-That would suit the consumers all right.
Mr. HOGAN.-I want to draw attention to an anomaly which appears in a sb1.tement as to what wheat was held on the 21st September of this year, as presented to the House by the Premier on the no-confidence motion. It appears in lfal1sa'rd, page 69- .
Wheat in Victoria, on the 21st September, 1914-4,434,000 bushels.
HelJ and owned by merchants, including mil1E:rs, each ho!ding 15,000 bushels and over-2,126,000 bushels.
Held by farmers on farms and in stores, each holding over 1,200 bushels-1,100,OOO bushels.
Exported during tabulation of schedules-225,000 bushels.
Held by farmers in lots under 1,200 bushels, by small merchants holding a total of less than 15,000 bushels, and others-983,OOO bushels.
vVhy did he put the small farmers holding under 1,000 bushels with the small merchants holding less than 15,000 bushels 1 \Vhat community of interest
[19]-2
is there between them? 'Vhat is tho good of giving us a table like thaH I. think the merchants' holdings should hav\) been kept separate from the farmers', and tha t the result of mixing them was to obscure the way in which the wheat was held. I fail to perceive any affinity between the small farmer holding less than 1,000 bushels and the small merchant holding less than 15,000 bushels. The table should have given each of thede separately. Although the Bill has dou~ no g()od in the past, I suppose we ma,v hope for better results in the future.
Mr. W. K. SMITH (Dundas).-I always believe in taking good advice when I get it. The leader of the Opposition, in response to my interjection as to what the price of bread ,\vas in N e,v South Wales, which figured rather considerably in his argument, replied, "Go and find out." I took the advice. IncidentaHv I may say that previously I had noted th"o fact that the price of bread in New South W ales and Victoria was the same. I wish to be quite fair to the' honorable member, and, consequently--
Mr. HAMPsoN.-They have day-baking in New South Wales.
Mr. W. K. SMITH (D'undas).-I am not concerned with that, but I am concerned in learning whether the New South 'Vales Governmient, by its fL'{ation of prices and its seizure of wheat, has been able to do what honorable members ill Opposition have claimed that it would be able to do-to protect the consumer. We have heard a great deal about the consumer and his interests. The leader of the Opposition has a· very strenuous objection to the name of New South Wales being introduced into the chamber when it happens to be on a subject that does not satisfy the ideas and the preconceived notions of himself and his party. In this case he brought it forward of his own volition. He showed how, by the fixation of prices there, the consumer was being protected, and said that the price of bread vms not going t.o the same abnormal limits as here. Now, I turned up the Sydney M01'ning Herald, of Wednesday, the 16th December-recent enough, you will admit, Mr. Speakerand there I find that the proclaimed price of bread in New South Wales is 4d. tho two-pound loaf in Sydney and Newcastle.
524 Price of [ASSEMBLY.] Goods Bill.
In all districts outside these places they by Victorian merchants. It happens have the right to charge ide the two-pound that I do· know a little about the loaf lUore than the price was on the 1st state of things, and what actually hapAugust last. In other words, they are pened was that the Victorian merchants nble to charge from 4td. upwards outside formed an estimate that ultimately Sydney and Newcastle. This merely proved to be the right one, namely, th:~L brillgs ont what I said in my interjection there would be a deficiency in the harto tLe leader of the Opposition-that is, vest of Victoria, and, further than that, that in spite of the fixation of prices in quite regardless-because the contracts New South Wales, the price of bread to were made before the war~of the war the consumer remains the same as her0. coming on that there would be a liigher We have heard a great deal about the price for wheat than was anticipated by needs of the consumer. One would the merchants of New South Wales. J T.
think that there had been given into the was not from the farmers that the wheat; hands of honorable members opposite a was bought, so far as Victorian mer-
d h chants are concerned. It was bought sacre trust t at no one on this (the ~ov~rnment) si~e of the House might from New South \Vales merchants, and mfnnge, that IS to look after the in- they were caught napping. They would terests of the consumer. have suffered most had the contracts been
carried out. Most o.f them had cO'n-Mr. HAMPsoN.-What is the price of tracted to deliver before they had made
bread in Mildura.1 any attempt to get futUre deliveries from Mr. W. K. SMITH (JJ1.lndas).-I do the farmers. In other words, it was a
not know. I am simply endeavouring speCUlation' between two bodies of men, ~o prove what I set out to prove. I find and whichever won it would not ca,use lllCldentally tllat the price of flour in to any large .extent suffering to the pro:Victoria is. quoted at' £14 a ton, whereas ducer. \Vith regard to the farmers, 1 III New South Wales it is £11 17s. 6d., made the statement that there had not but the price of bread is the same in been many purchasers of this season's both States. . wheat in Victoria this year. The con-
Mr. TOUTcHER.-It IS dearer in New ditions were never at such a stage that South Wales. we could confidently rely on a good har-
M:. W. K. SMITH (lJ1.//llaas).-It is vest. A great proportion of the farmers 4d. III Melbourne, and the same in Syd- were in the fortunate position of not n~y, but the price varies in country dis- needing advances, and could hold on r.o trIcts, and the variation has been allowed their wheat. With' regard to the others for in New South Wales by the Govern- under the present advantages, whatever meut allowing !d. more to be charged the rights or wrongs of speculation may from the 1st August. It seems that the be, surely the farmer has the right to action of this great, noble Govern- speculate if he, likes, and the Victorian ment of New South Wales has been to farmers who sold wheat to New South give a little mare to the miller. I have \Vales at 4s. 2d. for future delivery were wondered several times in the debate only bearing the market. Had wheat whether by any possibility honorable been low they would have gained, and members on the Opposition side of the th€y w~)Uld have gained more if they had House happened to possess any shares in waited until the crop was actually milling firms, because all through I have stripped before selling. A considerable no~i?ed a v,ery tender regard and a very numbe,r of our farming community. are solICItous mterest on their part for inoculated with the bacillus of gambling the miller. Both the bake·r and the which affects most of the community. miller of New South Wales ought There is a desire to gamble whatever the to' play little games of ring-a-ring-a-rosy article may be. A great number of the with one another, whilst the consumer farmers this year and in previous yean: is left to have all the benefit of the but rather less this year -trom my infixation O'f prices and the great benefit formation, have done a certain amount of paying the· same price for bread as of gambling. I wonder if there had here. The honorable member for been a bountiful harvest, and the price Warrenheip made the implication that I had gone below the trade price, whether knew very little with regard to wheat honora,ble members opposite would have that was bought in New South Wales been found upholding the cause of the
Price oj [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Goo'ls Bifl 525
farmer, and asking for the cancellation of contracts or the fulfilment of them, so that the farmer would get the thick end of the stick. Honorable members 0>
posite have, a grudge against the Government in regard to this matter, and they wish by any means to ca.sb a reflexion on the action of the Government and on eve'rything they have done. There is not, so far as I have discovered in the debates, any real desire on their part to consider the interests of the producer.· Notwithstanding the great work that the Labour Government has done in New South Wales, and notwithstanding the low price that the farmer is to get for his wheat and the low price of flour, the poor consumer has still to pay the same price as here.
Mr. OJYIAN.~I think the honorable member for Dundas has 'rendered a. service to the House in showing that with a lower price for wheat in New South "\Vales the price for bread is the same as here. 'Vhen this measure was passed some eighteen or nineteen weeks ago we thought it would have been used just as a similar measure was used in South Australia. If it had been so used there is not a member supporting the Government who would have offered any ob.iec~ tion to its reinstatement on the statutebook. The trouble is due to the fact that it was put into operation, and that a great injustice was done to a' number of the producers. It is all very we 11 for honorable members in Opposition to argue that wheat as it stands at 4s. 8~d. in Chicago is worth 6s. 9id. in London. If it is worth that it will not come to A ustralia, at 6s. 91d., because there is a greater freight to Australia. The honorable member for Benalla has pointed out that the value of wheat in Australia to~day, if there is a shortage in supply, is the Loudon value with the freight added. The price could not be less t,han the London price, and the wheat would have to come from America to be sold here. When the price in London is 6s. 9~d., the wheat cannot be sold to the public at a lower price than that at which it is offered at present. Producers put in a fairly large area last year, and the result has been disastrous to 'them. They are not going to receive, as the result of their labour, the money they actually put into the land. I view this measure with some concern, because it will, operate in two
ways. In the first place, it will be used by the merchants and millers to squeeze the producer. I kno'v a Gtatement was made that it was proposed to bring a &hipDlent of Australian wheat from London. I pointed out to the farmer, who said he had been lold this by a merchant, that if wheat wa3 returned from London, it would be a clear proof that it was worth very much more than the ruling price here. The London value is slightly over the Australian value a.t present. If we are going to fix t.he price, or if we place this Bill on the stat,ute-book, it will certainly discourage the importation of wheat, and it will make the people here wholly dependent on the local supply. Prom a producer's point of view, I do not know that that is a disadvantage, because I do not believe that the Government will put this Bill into operation even if it is passed. I do not desire to' create the impression that I am opposing the Bill because I believe the Government intend to put it into operation against the farmers. I am opposing it because I believe it to be wrong in principle. I believe that the people here are entitled to the world's value, and they a.sk no more. When Wf
have enormous production, we accept thi world's value, and when we have unda. production we accept the world's value. If wheat cannot be sent here without adding to the world's value, the cost of freight. the people here must expect to pay that price. When the Bill was passed it had the effect of causing a good deal of unrest amongst the farmers, and a great deal of the wheat crops was cut for hay. If this Bill IS carried to-night, it will enable the millers and the merchants to go into the country, and to point out to the farmers that if they do not accept the' price offered the Government will again fix the price. The producers will become nervous, and will accept the offer, The grain will fall into the hands of the millers, and when it does, what the honorable member for Dundas pointed out win occur-they will get their pound of flesh, and the producers will be deprived of their fair profit. Only a certain number will have any profit at all If you are going to discourage the man on the land there will be a decreased area under cultivation. I think the honorable member for Bendigo East said to-night that it would be a capital ide,a for the Government to put t,he unemployed on the land to produce wheat. If the farmers could rely on receiving a price equal to the co~t
526 P.rice of [ASSEMBLY.] Goods Bill.
of production, t.hey would off~r no objection. The best friends the consumers have are the producers, for they make it possible for the consumers to get a cheap loaf. It is not those who talk, but those who go into the back country, and settle on the land that benefit the consumers, although they very often get but a small return for their labour. Aft·er a good many years' experience, I am convinced that no farmer growing wheat, when you take the average for a number of years, can show a profit, if he allows for the ruling rate of wage for those employed. That cann.ot be disputed. A farmer may make a faIr ret·urn one year, and that is why they till the soil. It is just like the man who puts £1 on a horse, and succeeds in winning something. The farmer hopes that the price he will receive will give him a return of something more than the ordinary wage. His hope has not been realized. The men who till the land cannot show a good balance-sheet if they allow for the current wages. You can travel through the whole of the State, and you will find the successful men on farms ~re those who do not depend entirely on agriculture, but on aariculture and sheep. If yo-u put a man °on 300 acres on the western plains, and gave him the land unencumbered, he would make no more than the average man employed in the Government service.
Mr. HOGAN.-What do you mean by the average wage in the service 1
Mr. OMAN.-I mean a wage of 9s., such as is paid on railway works.
Mr. HOGAN.-Could the farmer not make that1
Mr. OMAN.-He would have to fallow, and to rest a proportion of his land, and he could not, on the average, year in and year out, make that from wheat alone. The Government are asking the farmers to put an increased area under grain, and, at the same time, they are offering them a measure of this kind that announces to them that they are not to get the world's value. I do- not wish to say that it is the intention of the Government to press the producers down, but this measure will enable the merchants to squeeze them. The result will be that almost the whole of the wheat within a fortnight will be in the hands of the millers or the merchants, and at a lower rate than that ruling today. I must do the Government the justice to declare that if they had not withdrawn t·he pr.ice wh~:Q they did, they
would have provided a splendid opportunity for the exploiter.
l\1r. HOGAN.-Read clause 3. Mr. OMAN.-I am not worrying about
that. The farmers are to have increased freights placed on their produce. They have something else to contend with, for they will have to put seed in at a cost of 7 s. per bushel.
Mr. CARLIsLE.-And the duty has been taken off wheat.
Mr. OMAN.-Yes, so that the,y win have to contend with an open market,. although this is a protectionist country, and has imposed duties in the interests of' the manufacturer and the producer. The protection can only be effective for the farme'rs when the production is equal to the local requirements. We find the duty has been removed, and so our market is open to the world. Still I have no objection to that, for I am not afraid of the world's competition. The farmers object to a measure being passed that will prevent them from getting the world's price for their wheat. Such a measure will not encourage production and increase the a.rea under cultivation. I have stored my implements for years, and hundred.9-of farmers have done the same, because they find there is no profit in tilling the land. Thousands of pounds worth of implements and horses are idle. The implements are rusting, and the horses are eating their· heads off simply because it is impossible to till the soil with profit.. I should like to see a number of men put on 1,000 acres under Government supervision and an accurate and clear account kept to show the cost of production. I would like to see that. In fact, I was almost rising to support the honorable member for Bendigo East when he made that proposition. We found ou~ last night that although there were 600 of the best fowls in this State in the Government grounds at Burnley, yet, under the Government, the affair showed a loss. Now. it seems to me that, if the Government can show a loss under those conditions, they will sho·w a loss under any conditions. I can assure honorable members of this fact, that I am not against any measure to prevent cornering.
Mr. HANNAH.-You would not be guilty of such a thing.
Mr. OMAN. - Honorable members opposite have never shown that there has been any at.tempt made by the merchants of this State to corner commodities. When
Price of [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Goods Bill. 521
we placed the Price of Goods Bill on the statute-book, was the price of wheat here above London value? If it had stood above London value, taking into account also the cost of bringing it from Lon:l~n to Australia, I could have understood the Government intervening j but am I .to understand that the people jn this State are less able to pay 6s. 9¥d. than ,the people in London ~ Are the people here paid a lower wage ~ We know they are not. We know that the people here .can afford much better to pay 6s. 9~d. for grain than the people ran in London. If the leaders in the House of Commons had spoken In the same way as we acted in this State, there would have been a panic in Great Britain. vVe are told by honorable members of the Opposition that a great quantity of grain was purchased in New South Wales at 3s. 2d. a bushel. Now, if wheat was purchased for 3s. 2d. a bushel there, it waS\ probably pur-chased, as was done by some men in my own constituency, before the drought was even thought of, and before there was any proposal to standardize the price of grain. I know what occurs in the case with other commodities. Take, for instance, stock. I have known men to purchase stock at lOs. and 12s. a head, and the price fell to 6s. Did the buyer come to the Government and ask the Government to intervene and make good his loss ~ No, he shouldered the responsibility and ac~epted the loss. Some men have been gambling in wheat who have never handled wheat, and some of whom wo.uld not know wheat from peas. These are the Illen whom the Opposition would like t.o deal with und,er this measure.
l\1:r. ELMSLIE.-\Ve would like to deal with them.
Mr. OlV[AN .-1 have no objection to their being dealt with. I think the Government has acted wisely in refusing to entertain the proposal to make good any losses that these men have sustained by their transaction~.
Mr. CHATHAM.-The Government have made sufficient losses by their own transactions.
Mr. OMAN .-N ot only tpat, but they have made losses for the men on the land. All we ask is just to be permitted to carryon our ordinary avocations withoQut let or hindrance. We do not ask for any coddling. We only want the world's value, but we do not expect the Government to come in and deprive us of
that maJ.·ket. For my part, I am certainly determined, in so far as I can tonight, to prevent this measure from becoming law, because I recognise, although the Government may have no such intention, that the result of it will be that a great number of men in the district I represent will be deprived of their legitima.te profits, and a number of them will be deprived of the opportunity of just being able to balance the ledger. The exceptional crops are only over a small area, and there are hundreds of people in my district whOo have only two 001' three hags to the acre. Round Lake Bolac the crops are a partial failure, owing to the ahsence of raIn. In the vicinity of Lismore things are much better, hut taking the whole area of the district, the net return to. the farmers will not be more than lIs. per acre, even if they obtain 7s. a· bushel for their grain. I hopei the Government will withdraw thIS measure. On evei'y platform I announced the position which I intended to take up. I said I was against the proposal, and I used the same arguments as I have used to-night; and I came back to this House with a bigger majority than I ever polled before. That gives the lie direct to the statement that the Government have used this measure t,o get back to the Treasury bench.
lVIr. HANNAH.-You voted for the first Bill.
Mr. OMAN.-1 voted for it because I never believed it would be put into' operation.
Mr. HANNAH.-No wonder you blush. Mr. OMAN.-I am nOot blushina . I
go furthel~, and say that I beiieved the Government of the day had sufficient sense to know what they were doing-to know that it would be much wiser to anow the Bill to be placed on the statu tebook simply with the view of using it if a corner were created in foodstuffs. They used it before that position occurred. Knowing that, I ask, how could I vote for re-instating the measure on the sta.tute-boo.k ~ I assume-1 have no assurance from the Government, and I had none previously-that they do not intend to repeat the sorry farce that occurred in connexion with the last measure. I think that proved once for all that the standardizing of prices is a failure, and cannot be brought about. But that was proved a.t great cost to the producers of the State. Unless the Government giVE>
Price of [ .\SSEMBLY.] Goods Bill.
me an aSt)~l:Fance that they are not going to put this meaSUre into oper a.ti on , I intend to go across the chatn ber and vote a.gainst it. I am going to leave nothing to chance. I am going to- pTotect myself and th& people I represent. If the Government intend to persist in endeavouring to place this measure 011 the statutebook, I have no doubt that I shall be abl.e on difie,re1:lt clauses of the Bill, to add' a little to what I luwe said. I certainly would urge the Government to drop the measure-to accept the advice of the leader of the Opposition. I think it was good advioo; and I would urge the Government to accept it, and to put this measure aside. I hope the Government will not persist in forcing the measure through to-night, because I am SUfe it is not going to have the effect they desire. It will decrease production, cause much unrest in the community, and enable a number of people who have no scruples to fleece their fellow citizens.
Mr. FARTHING.-There is on~ aspect of this measure that I would like to put before the House, and with regard to which I would like to have some assurance from the Minister in charge of the Bill. I would like the House to consider for one moment the position o,f those small millers and small produce merchants whose stocks at the present time are very low. It has come to my knowledge that there are quite a number of these, who find it very difficult at the present time to carryon their business, and it has been reported in the city that one finn in the country has been offering 68. 9id. and 68. 10d. a bushel for wheat; and there is a growing ide:a that this firm was acting on behalf of the Government itself. vVhether that is true or not I do not know. But if any miller, or any produce merchant, whose stocks are low at present wishes to carryon his business, he must purchase at some price equal to 6s. 10d., or perhaps a little higher. If he does that, and if we have no assurance fro~ the Minister that the price will not he lowered below that figure, then the merchants or millers who buy are faood with a very heavy loss. Again, we are told tha.t the Government does not intend to import wheat at all. Now, supposing a.ny merchant or miller takes it on himsPolf to import, say, a cargo of 5,000 or 6,000 tons of wheat, and then there is a cry raised about the enormouS price of wheat, and the Board fixes the price at
a lower :figure than 6!J. IOd., these people are again faced with a 108S. The effect of tha.t at the .present time is. that th-ese people are . afraid to do busines3. They must have their stock, or they must shut up. They canllot carryon their bu~iness without a supply of wheat. In this way, the re-enactment of this measure may have a paralyzing effect on trade, which I am sure the Government does not intend. If the Minister, however, can give us some assurance that these men will be protected, and not have to face the loss I have referred to, it would have a reassuring effect right throughout trade ci'rcles in the whole of the Stat-e. I would like the Government to take that aspect of the matter into consideration. If the Minister can see his way to give us some assurance on this point, then, for my own part, I would like to see this measure, as a protective measure, re-enacted, and I think it would do a great deal of good. But it will be disastrous, and only disastroue, if it has a.ny paralyzing effect on trade, a.s trade stands at the present time.
Mr. BOWSER.-The honorable member for East Melbourne has pointed out only one of the difficulties with which the Government will be cOl1:fronted if this n:ea~ure should become law. We have already had some experience of the diffi· culties and th.e injustice in the country districts under the existing measure. I pl'Opose to speak at some length on this subject, and would ask. the Minister in charge of the Bill to agree to the adjournment of the debate. This House is in an intolerable. condition and another place h3£ already adjourned. .
Mr. lVIACKINNoN.-Let us get the second reading to-night.
Mr. BOWSER.-I understand there are quite a number of honorable members.
. who intend to Cl.ddress themselves to this question. Considering that this is the festive season, and that we cannot conclude the business to-night, another pl&ce having risen, the honorable gentleman should agree to the adjournment. I desire to say, in regard to this Bill, that I shall feel it my duty to oppose it at every stage. If the Government at the inception of the difficulties which arose in connexion with this matter, had brought tiawn a pl'oposal to take control of fhe wheat, to see where the wheat was sent, and control the speculators, thi& House' mif'"ht have considered the question. But their policy has been one of vacillation
Price of [22 DECEMBER, 1914.1 Goods Bill. 52~
from start to finish, and if this Bill became law we do not know what will blj done in the administration of it. \Va have no assurance that the producers of the State will be protected in the near future. As honorable members have pointed out, the crop this year is of such a nature that there are very few farmerf' in this State who will receive any profit from their labours, and I believe that if the Government proceed with this Bill it will have a very injurious effect upon the producing industry. and especially upon the policy the Government annou1:lcedthe extension of the wheat area m the coming year. I believe this Bill will have a restricting influence, and that we shall have less land under wheat that there otherwise would have been. I am aware that the Go·vernment are anxious to meet .both sides-to control the speculator, atld at the same time to protect the consumer. If the Government will bring down a measure that will achieve these things they will have the almost. una~imous s.ulJ· port of the House. It IS qUlte possIble to do that. Under this Bill, if the G.overnment should :fix the price in future, they 'will be in the position of which they have already had painful experience. Is it not a remarkable thing that the Government should fix the price of wheat 011
a. rising market for the benefit of the COll'
sumer when it has never in the past fixed the price on a falling market for the benefit of the producer 7
Mr: HAMPSON .-Supposing the Government grew some themselves, would you favour their fixing a price at which they 'Could prod uee ~ . .
1\1.r. BOWSER.-I am 1l0t consIdenng hypothetical questions as to wh~t ~he Government might do. I am pomtmg out the injustice to the producer when you refuse to fix the price in favour of the producer of VI heat. The injustice is so manifest that it can hardly escape,the observation of honorable members. At no time in the experience of this House have we found, a Government that has been willing when wheat was selling at Is. 8d. or Is. 'lOd. a bushel, to fix the price at 3s. 6d. a bushel in the interest of the producer. Therefore, for these and other reasons, I shall oppose this meaSllre.
Mr. MENZIES.-When the Government took up the Price of Goods.Bill. Ule objective, judging by the speeches that 'were made. wa.s to gnaranteetotbe. COD
. sumer that he would ha.ve cheap bread.
I think the speech of the honora,ble member for Dundas to-night has completely knocked the bottom out of the idea of securing this to the consumer. In the adjoining State the price of .wheat was fixed at 4s. 2d. Notwithstanding that the price there has been consistently behind the price fixed in the State of Victoria, we have indubitable proof furnished tonight that the same price for a loaf ot bread is being paid in Sydney as in Mel-bourne. .
Mr. ELMSLIE..-Since when 7 Mr. MENZIES.--Since, T think, t.he
16th December. Mr. ELMSLIE.-Before that it was
cheaper. lVIr. MENZIES.-That only emphasi~es
the point that by fixing the price of wheat they have not secured what it was really intended to secure by taking the power under this legislation, and that is to secure to the consumer bread at a fair pric~. Whilst we in Victo~ia h~ve not commandeered the wheat supplies as in the adjoining State, and whilst we have fixed the pI'ice cousistently at a higher figure than in New South Wales, to-day the price of a 4-1b. loaf is exactly the same in Melbourne as in Sydney. As a result of the failure of the crop in Victoria in 1902, we were then paying exactly the same price for bread in Melbourne as we are paying now.
At this stage the debate was adjourned until the following day, the honorable member for Lowan to have leave to continue his ~peech on the resumption of the debate.
ADJOURNMENT.
Sir ALEXANDER PEA.COCK (Premier) moved-
That the House do now adjourn.
He said-I had anticipated being able to .conclude the work of the session this evening. but another place ?ave not been able to deal with all the BIlls that have gone up to them from this Chamber, and they have adj.ourned until half-pas~ two o'clock to-morrow. The two taxation Bills have not been finally dealt with there. We have had a most trying day, and we might now adjourn.
The motion. was agreed to. The House i adjourned at twenty-eight
minutes past ten o'clock p.m., until the following day .
