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INTERVIEW AND INTERROGATION Getting Beyond the Basics
Sherman R. McGrew, CFE
Sherman R. McGrew, CFE
Captain, Retired, Waterbury Police Department Connecticut, United States
Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Army Reserves, Retired
Program Analyst
U.S. Transportation Safety Administration (TSA) The Hague, Netherlands
Why should I listen to this guy?
It’s a good question!
Law Enforcement Background 23 years law enforcement experience
Ranks of Patrolman, Det., Sgt., Lt., and Capt.
Extensive financial crimes experience
1,000s of interviews
Why should I listen to this guy?
Military Background 31 years military experience
Retiring as a Lt. Col., Reserves
3 active duty call ups, 2 combat tours in Iraq
Worked with UK Civilian Police in Basra
In charge of police trainers for Basra Police
Why should I listen to this guy?
But wait, there’s more!
Master of Science, Forensic Science
Juris Doctor, Law Degree
Admitted to Connecticut Bar, United States
Admitted to Federal Bar, United States
15–20 minutes.
Why?
Deviation from basics = problems.
Let’s go over what we already know.
Refresh and recharge batteries.
Confessions are vital.
Many financial crimes would not be solved without confessions.
Confessions “cinch” the deal!
Interview and interrogation (I & I) gives you the tools you need to get confessions.
I & I gets you past being “stuck” when a suspect denies.
I & I done properly keeps you legal and correct.
I & I is NOT like on TV.
You are never a bully!
Tough guy interviewers LOSE in I & I.
Tough guys don’t get confessions.
Do you want a confession, or do you want to
feel good for 15 seconds?
We use I & I every day!
Ever get the feeling, “He’s lying?”
Ever see someone talk and know he was lying?
Odds are, you were right.
This course shows you how to interpret your natural instincts.
Use what you already “know.”
Before you even meet the suspect …
Do your homework!
Don’t shortchange this.
Common sense—Know the facts of the fraud uncovered to date.
Learn something about the suspect.
Check files (privacy concerns), talk to supervisors.
Know as much as you can about the suspect BEFORE the interview.
Caution:
WAR STORY! The Zoot Suit
You MUST be able to relate to a suspect.
Feel it in your gut.
Establish a rapport.
Get feedback.
Are you the right guy to do this interview?
You can’t fake it.
There’s a word for all this … EMPATHY.
You must be able to empathize with the suspect.
Ideally, in an interview room
No windows
Small
Two chairs
No posters
No signs
Quiet
Do the best you can to find a place like this
It’s always an interview, never an interrogation.
Be friendly.
Shake hands.
Small talk on the way to the interview room.
Look for signs of stress.
He has been up all night … Can’t sleep.
Suspect may ask questions early … He wants to
know what you know!
What is his upbringing?
Religious?
Moral or amoral?
What does he care about?
Family?
Reputation?
In short, what makes him tick?
This one is easy!
Only you and the suspect.
Two’s company, three’s a crowd.
You can’t build a rapport with three.
One-on-one allows you to understand.
Confessing to one person is hard enough.
Another easy one!
Never!
Okay, emergencies (real ones) only.
Interruptions will cost you confessions.
Include small glass window in door.
Signal if “they” need you to come out.
Interruptions set you back, WAY back.
They will always come at the worst time.
Caution:
WAR STORY! The Murder Suspect
Know your legal responsibilities for where you are.
Criminal consequences?
Are you an agent of the police?
Rights warnings necessary?
What if he asks for a lawyer?
What if he asks YOU if he NEEDS a lawyer?
He should come of his own free will.
He is free to leave at anytime.
It’s not like on TV.
Lawyers will almost never let guilty clients (or
innocent ones, for that matter) talk to you.
If lawyers get involved, your chance for a
confession is near zero.
Make him decide if he wants a lawyer!
“Do I need a lawyer?” Answer: “I would never
advise anyone not to have a lawyer.”
Obtain before you start the interview.
He understands he is free to leave.
He understands he can get a lawyer.
He is there of his own free will.
Get it in writing (and signed), and then put it
out of sight!
It’s an accusation.
“I want to talk to you about some of the money that you needed to use from the safe.”
Reactions?
He might confess right then and there.
But, more likely … the innocent will get mad.
But, so do the guilty!!!
You can calm the guilty down quickly because they are faking their anger.
Anything Except a “No” Is a “YES!”
Watch out for qualified answers
“Did you take the money?” “Did I take the money? No.” (He’s telling you someone
did!)
Repeating the question back to you “Do you know how the theft happened?” “Do I know how the theft happened? Not really.” Gives time to think. The innocent don’t need time!
Watch out for trigger words.
Not stole, but needed.
Not larceny, but took.
Not embezzled, but fudged the books.
Stole/larceny/embezzled = JAIL
Needed/took/fudged = MISTAKES
Ask yourself: What’s easier to admit???
“I made a mistake when I fudged the books because I really needed the money that I took.”
OR “I’m a thief who knowingly committed larceny
when I stole from the company that has treated me so very well and I deserve to go to jail.”
How to minimize the actions of the suspect.
“Everyone’s taken something from work.”
“Cops take things from work.”
“It’s just a matter of degree.”
“You’re not the first one in the world …”
“You were going to pay it back, right?”
All interviewees are under stress.
The guilty are under great stress.
They need to know what you know to lie effectively.
The guilty are thinking a mile a minute.
The innocent don’t have to think so hard.
“It couldn’t have been you because when the theft took
place you were at the local bar? Then you saw the fire
across the street, right?” (Got ya!)
Never interrupt a suspect.
Learn to be a good listener.
What is he REALLY saying?
What words is he using?
When he stops, let the silence lie there.
This builds pressure.
This works for you.
Big manila folder
LOTS of papers inside
Suspect name on front
Type of investigation
Can be read upside down
Videotapes
Know that you never get the full story … ever.
Something is always left out.
I was once told, “Information is like money in the bank. You never close the account, and you always leave something for emergencies.”
Know the elements of the fraud you are asking about.
Get the suspect to admit to the necessary elements.
DON’T GLOAT when the suspect confesses.
He can smell that a mile away and will shut up.
You will then never get a written statement.
If you have done the interview correctly, you feel guinenly sorry for him.
Ask him if he is sorry.
Ask him if he will ever do it again.
Sounds silly, but it helps get you the written confession.
You write it out.
The sentences in the statement must include the elements of the fraud.
Example: “When you found out how much money you owed, there was no other way out?”
If he agrees, write that out in the first person.
Read it through together.
Have him read some aloud and make corrections.
Get a witness to the suspect’s signing of the confession.
Moods change, protect the employer/victim.
If serious enough, recommend the suspect is immediately escorted out of the building.
Sometimes, employers can’t believe it!
Get keys and access badges.
Lots of damage can be done in a short period of time.
Don’t leave a suspect alone after a confession!
Five More Difficult Situations
1. Multiple (five plus) suspects
2. The openly hostile suspect
3. Turning up the heat
4. Note-taking
5. Attorneys and testifying in court
A fraud has been committed.
The facts of the fraud show that only an employee/insider could have done it.
There are 50–100 possible suspects.
There is no way you have enough time to interview them all in depth.
What do you do?
You interview each of them for five or less minutes!
The goal is NOT to find the guilty party at this stage!
The goal is to ELIMINATE the innocent!
You can do this interview for 50 suspects in one morning.
At the end, you will have about six “good” suspects.
1. Have you heard about the theft that took place?
2. What do you know about it?
Watch his demeanor as he relates what he knows.
3. When you first heard about this theft, who came to mind?
The innocent may be reluctant to name names. This is normal. BUT, they thought of someone when they heard about it.
The suspected will keep it vague: “It could have been anyone.”
4. Who do you think is the most unlikely person to have done this?
Same as before. Innocent give names. Suspected keeps it vague.
5. What should happen to the person who did this?
Innocent = They should go to jail! For ten years! To the electric chair!
Suspected = They should definitely pay the money back.
The same suspect names will keep popping up!
People always KNOW!
The same for the names of the least likely to have done it.
You will end up with a much smaller pool of suspects at the end of the day.
Now, go use your I & I tools for more extensive interviews!
Above all, stay calm.
Ask yourself, “Why is he hostile?”
Innocent and angry, OR guilty and angry?
Case preparation is vital here.
Do you have a trump card? Play it now.
When tough guys crack, they crack fast!
Be ready.
Remember the basics … Be yourself.
We can’t get physical.
Physical closeness without touching.
Get into the personal space.
Lay out the evidence like a prosecutor.
The hits just keep on coming.
No way out.
Don’t! It’s a distraction.
You really don’t need it.
But, if you must …
Never do it at a crucial time in the interview.
It will stop the suspect from talking.
Do it during a “non-important” time.
Don’t let the suspect see what you are writing.
Flip a page to start, then flip it back when finished.
Don’t hate them.
They are doing their job.
Stay polite.
DO NOT GET ANGRY, NO MATTER WHAT!
If you don’t understand, ask them to repeat.
You can repeat the question back.
Watch out for tricks … How he got me!
Interviewing suspects is an art.
It takes time.
Be yourself.
Sympathize.
Minimize.
Empathize.
Get the confession!
It works!
You can do it!
