Interview (Eli)

8/17/2019 Interview (Eli)

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Berlin Wall Interview

Interviewers: Lena and Liesel Kemmelmeier Interviewee: Eli Rubin Dr. Eli Rubin teaches at West Michigan University and specializes in modern European history,German history, material culture, the history of the old War, and World War !!.

Interviewer: How did the Berlin Wall cause those living in Berlin (specificall inthe East! to encounter problems both in their ever da life and with theirfamilies"

Eli: The Berlin Wall went up overnight, on August 12-13 1961. At that time, even though therewas a or!er etween East an! West Berlin, it was "onsi!ere! an open or!er--a"tuall# this

was e"ause the $our powers %&'A, &(, )ran"e, &''*+ ha! agree! it woul! e an open or!er $or Berliners. 'o, there were a out , East Berliners who ha! permission to wor in WestBerlin. The# were parti"ularl# $ortunate, e"ause the# earne! West /erman 0euts"hmar s, asoppose! to East /erman ar s, an! West /erman mone# was mu"h more valua le, sin"e asa western "urren"# it "oul! e use! to u# things $rom all aroun! the worl!. nl# so"ialist"ountries, however, a""epte! East /erman mone#. 'o, those people s $amilies prospere!.

But the or!er "lose! an! the wall went up while some o$ them were at wor , or in West Berlinvisiting other relatives or $rien!s. B# the time the# hear! what was happening an! trie! to get

a" to their homes, the or!er was shut, an! the# "oul! not. )or the ne4t 25 #ears, the# "oul!

not see their $amilies, in"lu!ing parents who "oul!n t see their "hil!ren. $ these were thepeople who ha! 7o s in West Berlin, it was !evastating to their $amilies sin"e their $amilies"oul!n t get the ene$it o$ their western mone# an# longer. 'ome trie! ever#thing the# "oul!thin o$ to get a" , or to get their $amilies out, ut usuall# the most the# "oul! get was a 28-hour visitation pass. )or some, that was ver# pain$ul, to have to eep sa#ing goo! #e. Therewas even a train station in East Berlin, where West Berliners who ha! the 28 hour pass to visit$amil# in East Berlin, ha! to go to return to West Berlin, an! it was ni" name! the ala"e o$Tears %"r#nenpalast in /erman+ e"ause the so ing a out having to sa# goo! #e a$ter 7ust28 hours. This uil!ing is still there, an! it is a museum now. 'ome people stoppe! visiting

e"ause it was too sa!!ening, an! simpl# move! elsewhere in West /erman#, got remarrie!,starte! new $amilies, stoppe! writing letters to their spouses; i!s a" in the East.

t also impa"te! $amilies in the East who ha! relatives in the West. t was goo! on the onehan!, e"ause relatives in the West were allowe! to sen! one gi$t pa" age per #ear %sometimesmore than that+ to $rien!s;relatives in East /erman#. These "ontaine! all the "onsumer goo!sEast /ermans "oul!n t get--'wiss "ho"olate, Ameri"an ro" n roll or *


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i! in s"hool> But on the other han!, i$ #ou ha! a relative in the West, the authorities, espe"iall#the $eare! 'tasi %the se"ret poli"e+ were suspi"ious o$ #ou. ?our relatives might e spies o$ the@ A, tr#ing to get #ou to sp# $or them, or #ou might e tempte! to $lee East /erman# to e withthem, whi"h was also a "rime. 'o #our letters to them an! $rom them were opene! an! rea!#our phones were tappe!, an! #ou were o$ten $ollowe!. 'ometimes, #our neigh ors were

re"ruite! to sp# on #ou, or even #our "olleagues at wor , or #our tea"hers at s"hool> An! i$ amem er o$ #our $amil# !i! es"ape over the Wall, the se"ret poli"e too it out on #ou an! #our$amil# instea!.

Interviewer: What was the Berlin Wall#s historical significance"

Eli: woul! sa# that it was the num er one s#m ol that !e-legitimi e! @ommunism in the e#eso$ the western an! even !eveloping worl!. $ a "ommunist state ha! to uil! a wall to eep itspeople $rom leaving, then there "oul! e no etter proo$ o$ how a! @ommunism as an i!ea

was. t also provi!e! a $i4e! geographi" ph#si"al lo"ation to !emonstrate an! protest againstthe "ol! war an! against the "ommunist regime, so in 1959 what reall# "ause! "ommunism to"rum le an! the @ol! War to en! was the $a"t that 1 s o$ East Berliners masse! at one o$ the"he" points--at Bornholmerstrasse--!eman!ing to e let through the Wall. Their slogan was

we ll "ome a" meaning, wh# !on t #ou trust us to travel to the other part o$ the "it#, #ou retreating us li e "hil!ren who have een groun!e! $or 25 #ears. Co one "oul! argue with that,an! the government opene! the gate, ut on"e it !i! that, it s#m oli e! the loss o$ authorit# o$the state, an! on"e lost, it "oul! not e regaine!. Without a ph#si"al wall at whi"h to have a!emonstration, an! through whi"h to !eman! passage, it is not "lear i$ su"h a !ramati" moment"oul! have happene!.

t is also a "autionar# tale $or our times: almost ever# time in histor# that governments havetrie! to uil! walls to eep people out or in, the# have $aile!. Thin o$ the /reat Wall o$ @hina,or the me!ieval "it# walls that use! to prote"t towns an! "ities, an! this is something to "onsi!er in the "urrent "limate when people tal a out uil!ing a Wall etween the &' an! e4i"o.

Interviewer: How would ou describe the reunification of $erman and Berlin"

Eli: At $irst, the protesters who rought !own the Wall were not see ing to reuni$# /erman#.

The# elieve! in the i!ea o$ so"ialism, 7ust that it ha! een uilt ver# poorl#, with lots o$"orruption an! ine$$i"ien"#. The# wante! to eep a separate so"ialist /erman state, ut onethat woul! not e li e the ol! wa#s, an! whi"h woul! have $ree ele"tions, $ree!om o$ spee"h, nose"ret poli"e, no Wall. But when the# hel! a re$eren!um, it turne! out that a ma7orit# o$ East/ermans "hange! their min!s an! !e"i!e! the est "ourse woul! e to simpl# uni$# with West/erman#. As one East /erman put it, have een a part o$ an e4periment $or all m# a!ult li$e%he meant the /0*, an attempt to uil! a so"ialist "ountr#+ no more e4periments> % n other


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wor!s, he 7ust wante! to e part o$ a s#stem that was proven to wor , that eing "apitalist West/erman#.

?et ver# Dui" l# pro lems e"ame apparent. ost East /erman "ompanies, $or e4ample, werenot set up to e "ompetitive in a mar et e"onom#. East /erman# guarantee! $ull emplo#ment,

so man# $a"tories or "ompanies ha! wa# too man# emplo#ees on the pa#roll. n a mar ete"onom#, #our "ompan# has to tr# to ma e its pro!u"ts or servi"es with $ewest ne"essar#num er o$ emplo#ees, or else #ou won t have an# pro$its. This meant that most East /erman"ompanies "lose! ver# Dui" l#, or were ought # West /erman "ompanies who $ire! most o$the emplo#ees. &nemplo#ment, whi"h ha! never een nown in East /erman#, s #ro" ete!.

n so"ialism, people ha! ample so"ial support--su si!i e!, ni"e, housing, $ree health "are,!a#"are, e!u"ation, et". Cow, the# lost man# o$ these things, an! #et e"ause the# ha! neverlearne! the ins an! outs o$ thriving in a "apitalist e"onom#, the# were reall# at a loss. )or man#,that was the en! o$ their "areers an! their wor ing lives, an! the# "ame to regret the en! o$ the/0*.

thers em ra"e! the new s#stem, espe"iall# the $ree!oms it o$$ere!. The# "oul! travelan#where the# went on va"ations in )ran"e, the &'A, Australia, an#where the# li e!. The#move! awa#, the# marrie! westerners, et". An! there were some who learne! how to su""ee!in a "apitalist e"onom#, an! !i! so.

'till, man# "omplaine! that li$e in the West was shallow, materialisti", an! alwa#sovers"he!ule! an! too stress$ul an! "ompetitive. The# $elt li e the# now alwa#s ha! eep upwith the =oneses an! i$ their i!s !i!n t have the right $ashion in s"hool or i$ the# !i!n t have ani"e enough "ar the# ! e 7u!ge! it was never that wa# un!er so"ialism, whi"h was a more

rela4e! an! less stress$ul e4isten"e $or man#.

To this !a#, /ermans still spea o$ the Mauer im $opf , whi"h means the Wall in the ea!whi"h means that $ormer Easterners, "alle! %ssies , thin , ehave, an! a"t !i$$erentl# than theWessies --westerners an! there is even a term $or those who are nostalgi" $or the aspe"ts o$li$e, espe"iall# ever#!a# li$e, in the /0*, whi"h is the wor! %stalgie whi"h is a pla# on wor!s--the wor! %st&whi"h means East in /erman, an! 'ostalgie whi"h means nostalgia.

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Interview (Eli)