Interviews _ the Kirby Effect

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* Home <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/> * 1969 – Julius Caesar Costume Designs <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/caesar/> * A handwritten note signed by Jack Kirby <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/a-handwritten-note-signed-by-jack-kirby/> * Error Page <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/error/> * Kirby’s Civil War <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/civilwar/> o 1947 – 48 Famous Americans

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/civilwar/1947-48-famous-americans/> o 1957-1958 – Johnny Reb

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/civilwar/1957-1958-johnny-reb/> o 1961 – The War Between The States

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/civilwar/1961-the-war-between-the-states/> o 1972 – The Forever People “I’ll See You In Yesterday!”

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/civilwar/foreverpeople/> o 1976 – Captain America’s Bicentennial Battles

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/civilwar/1976-captain-americas-bicentennial-battles/> * Kirby’s Real Folks <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/> o 1942 – Prevue of Peril

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1942-prevue-of-peril/> o 1956 – Guys and Dolls

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1956-guys-and-dolls/> o 1960 – Old Ideas For New Panel Shows

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/old-ideas-for-new-panel-shows/> o 1961 – The Lone Voyager

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1961-the-lone-voyager/> o 1962 – The End Of The Fantastic Four!

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1962-the-end-of-the-fantastic-four/> o 1967 – 46 Hours And 36 Minutes In The Life Of Jack Ruby

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1967-46-hours-and-36-minutes-in-the-life-of-jack-ruby/> o 1975 – The Quarterback As A Corporation

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1975-the-quarterback-as-a-corporation/> o 1976 – Paul McCartney And Wings

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1976-paul-mccartney-and-wings/> o 1976 – The Madbomb – The Screamer In The Brain!

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1976-the-madbomb-the-screamer-in-the-brain/> o 1982 – Goozlebobber

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1982-goozlebobber/> o 1982 – Terror By Telephone

<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/realfolks/1982-terror-by-telephone/> * Ragnarok 2 <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/ragnarok2/> * That Old Jack Magic <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/jackmagic/>

<http://kirbymuseum.org> <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/>

Interviews

by Michael Hill <http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/author/mikeh/>Posted 16 June 2015<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/2015/06/16/interviews/> inAccording To Kirby<http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/category/according-to-kirby/>.

/Twenty-five years after Jack Kirby’s interview conducted by Gary Grothwas published in The Comics Journal #134<http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/>, many still question Kirby’sveracity. Some Kirby detractors call the interview ‘telling,’ while evensome Kirby proponents consider it ‘unfortunate’. Michael Hill collectedexamples from the entire body of Kirby’s interview record to determinethe validity of such accusations. He then sent us his compilation, aswell as a longer article that will soon be serialized, for considerationfor The Kirby Effect, and we publish it with comments disabled<http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/why-were-shutting-our-comments> –Rand./

Interview snippets of Jack Kirby and others excerpted in large part from/The Comics Journal, The Jack Kirby Collector/ and the Kirby Museumsite, categorized and labeled by year. It’s important to have theability to see that things Kirby said in the /TCJ/ interview werenothing new.

“They’d take it away from me.”

*1970 [Hamilton]^1 <#1>*

BRUCE HAMILTON: Do you care to discuss your main reasons for switchingto DC?

JACK KIRBY: I don’t mind at all. I can only say that DC gave me my ownediting affairs, and if I have an idea I can take credit for it. I don’thave the feeling of repression that I had at Marvel. I don’t say Iwasn’t comfortable at Marvel, but it had its frustrating moments andthere was nothing I could do about it. When I got the opportunity totransfer to DC, I took it. At DC I’m given the privilege of beingassociated with my own ideas. If I did come up with an idea at Marvel,they’d take it away from me and I lost all association with it. I wasnever given credit for the writing which I did. Most of the writing atMarvel is done by the artist from the script.

As things went on, I began to work at home and I no longer came up tothe office. I developed all the stuff at home and just sent it in. I hadto come up with new ideas to help the strip sell. I was faced with thefrustration of having to come up with new ideas and then having themtaken from me.

*1971 [Skelly]^2 <#2>*

TCJ: What do you think the advantages are over at National?

KIRBY: The advantages? Well, I have a lot more leeway. I can thinkthings out, do them my way and know I get credit for the things I do.There were times at Marvel when I couldn’t say anything because it wouldbe taken away from me and put in another context, and it would be lost –all my connection with it would be severed. For instance, I created theSilver Surfer, Galactus and an army of other characters, and now myconnection with them is lost.

TCJ: That sounds like a problem.

KIRBY: You get to feel like a ghost. You’re writing commercials forsomebody and… It’s a strange feeling, but I experienced it and I didn’tlike it much.

TCJ: Things are probably bad enough in the comics field as far asrecognition goes.

KIRBY: Well, recognition comes to very few people. It wasn’t recognitionso much – you just couldn’t take the character anywhere. You coulddevote your time to a character, put a lot of insight into it, help itevolve and then lose all connection with it. It’s kind of an eeriething; I can’t describe it. You just have to experience thatrelationship to understand it.

*1982 [Zimmerman]^3 <#3>*

Kirby’s contributions to Marvel Comics are legendary. When asked what hereceived in return, he says, “A lot of ingratitude. It hasn’t left mebitter, it’s just that it shouldn’t work out that way.”

Jack Kirby…

…”saved Marvel’s ass”

*1989 [Groth]^4 <#4>*

KIRBY: Marvel was on its ass, literally, and when I came around, theywere practically hauling out the furniture. They were literally movingout the furniture. They were beginning to move, and Stan Lee was sittingthere crying. I told them to hold everything, and I pledged that I wouldgive them the kind of books that would up their sales and keep them inbusiness, and that was my big mistake.

*1987 [Schwartz]^5 <#5>*

JACK: The only thing I knew best was comics and I went back to Marveland Marvel was in very poor straits–all comics were in poor straits–andboy I can tell you, when I went into Marvel they were crying–and Stanleywas going into the publisher and lock up that very afternoon and Iconvinced him not to do it. And of course I didn’t change things in oneday; but I knew that in a couple of months I could do it.

*1986 [Pitts]^6 <#6>*

KIRBY: My version is simple: I saved Marvel’s ass. When I came up toMarvel, it was closing that same afternoon, Stan Lee had his head on thedesk and was crying. It all looked very dramatic to me, but I needed thejob. I was a guy with a wife and three kids and a house, and I wanted tokeep it. And so, having no rapport with Martin Goodman, who was thepublisher– Stan Lee was his cousin– I told Stan Lee that we could keepthe place going. And I told him to try to tell Martin to keep it going,because we could possibly revive it.

*1985 [Van Hise]^7 <#7>*

“When I came up to Marvel in the late Fifties, they were just about toclose up, that very afternoon! I told them not to do it. Marvel is acase of survival. I guaranteed them that I’d sell their magazines, and Idid. I did the monster stories or whatever they had and they began toliven up a bit.”

*1982 [Zimmerman]^8 <#8>*

“My business with Joe was gone. I did a few things for /ClassicsIllustrated /which drove me crazy. I wanted a little stability, and Ineeded the work. Marvel seemed to be the place, and comics seemed to bethe only thing I was really good at. And I already had responsibilities;I was a father, I owned property, I had to work.

“Marvel was going to close,” Kirby recalls. “When I broke up with Joe,comics everywhere were taking a beating. The ones with capital hung on.Martin Goodman [publisher of Marvel] had slick paper magazines, like

/Swank /and the rest. It was just as easy for Martin to say, ‘Oh, whatthe hell. Why do comics at all?’ And he was about to—Stan Lee told meso. In fact, it looked like they were going to close the afternoon thatI came up. But Goodman gave Marvel another chance.”

*1982 [Eisner]^9 <#9>*

KIRBY: Okay, I came back to Marvel there. It was a sad day. I came backthe afternoon they were going to close up. Stan Lee was already theeditor there and things were in a bad way. I remember telling him not toclose because I had some ideas. What had been done before, I felt, couldbe done again. I think it was the time when I really began to grow. Iwas married. I was a man with three children, obligations.

*1989 [Groth]^10 <#10>*

GROTH: So it was to a large extent circumstance that compelled you toproduce–

KIRBY: Circumstances forced me to do it. They forced me.

GROTH: Was there a sense of excitement during that period when Marvelwas starting to take off?

KIRBY: No, there wasn’t a sense of excitement. It was a horrible, morbidatmosphere. If you can find excitement in that kind of atmosphere – theexcitement of fear. The excitement of, “What to do next?” The excitementof what’s out there. And that’s the excitement that always existed inthe field. What am I going to do now that I’m not doing anything morefor this publisher? I can go to another publisher. I have to make a living.

GROTH: Did you approach Marvel or –

KIRBY: It came about very simply. I came in [to the Marvel offices] andthey were moving out the furniture, they were taking desks out – and Ineeded the work! I had a family and a house and all of a sudden Marvelis coming apart. Stan Lee is sitting on a chair crying. He didn’t knowwhat to do, he’s sitting in a chair crying –he was just still out of hisadolescence. I told him to stop crying. I says. “Go in to Martin andtell him to stop moving the furniture out, and I’ll see that the booksmake money.”

Drew Friedman: ^11 <#11> My dad (Bruce Jay Freidman) actually worked at Magazine Management, which was the company that owned Marvel Comics in the fifties and sixties, so he knew Stan Lee pretty well. He knew him before the superhero revival in the early sixties, when Stan Lee had one office, one secretary and that was it. The story was that Martin Goodman who ran the company was trying to phase him out because the comics weren’t selling too well.

Dick Ayers: ^12 <#12> I worked right through. Things had started getting really bad, I guess, in 1958. And still Stan kept me working. And one day, when I went in, he looked at me and he said, “Gee whiz, my uncle goes by and he doesn’t even say hello to me.” He meant Martin Goodman. And he proceeds to tell me, “You know, it’s like a ship sinking and we’re the rats. And we’ve got to get off.” So he told me, “Try to find something else.”

Larry Lieber: ^13 <#13> Back then Marvel was Timely Comics. At the time I worked there, Magazine Management was big when the comics

were big… it was small when the comics were small. At one time in the late ’50s it was just an alcove, with one window, and Stan was doing all the corrections himself; he had no assistants.

Jim Vadeboncouer: ^14 <#14> It wasn’t until December 1958/January 1959 that Lee gathered around him the core of what was to be Marvel Comics: Kirby, Ditko, Heck, Ayers, and Reinman. This lends credence to Kirby’s claim to have found Lee despondent on his desk, ready to throw in the towel. If the inventory was depleted and sales were down and growth was restricted, what was a man to do but give it all up?

Flo Steinberg: ^15 <#15> Well, it was March of ’63… And I went up and talked to this man, Stan Lee. And the interview was in this teeny little cubbyhole of an office… And the whole Magazine Management company was in one big floor [of 625 Madison Avenue] with partitions set up. And Marvel Comics was the teeniest little office on the floor. There was Stan and his desk, then another small desk.

Michael Vassallo: ^16 <#16> Jack’s recollection of seeing Stan crying shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. When I constructed a timeline of job numbers, I was shocked to find that Joe Maneely’s last story and Jack’s first story in Strange Worlds #1 (“I Discovered the Secret of the Flying Saucers!”) were only a few digits apart. I immediately asked Dick Ayers to check his work records on an equally close western he did and his work records corroborated that all these stories were commissioned within one or two days of Joe Maneely’s death on June 8th 1958! Immediately it made possible sense to me that if Jack had in fact arrived looking for work on the following Monday, June 10th he would have found Stan Lee in his office inconsolable, and predicting the soon demise of Goodman’s already tenuous line of 8 titles a month.

Whatever anyone may want to say about Stan, he was very close to Maneely, had worked with him since late 1949, and depended on him to launch many/most of the Atlas character features in the western, war comics throughout the 1950’s. He was the fastest artist he had (Jack Kirby fast, possibly faster, by all accounts) and after the implosion he was drawing most of the covers and handling the Two-Gun Kid feature. There just wasn’t enough new material to keep him busy so he was also simultaneously at DC and also Charlton. But even more importantly for Stan, he was a partner on their Mrs. Lyons’ Cubs newspaper syndicated feature, both hoping to catch lightning in a bottle and leave the dregs of the comic book industry.

So taking all of that together, the timing and the relationship, it is “very” likely Jack did find Stan, not necessarily bawling his eyes out, but very upset that morning when he went in looking for work.

…while doing monster books, persuaded Marvel to try superheroes

*1989 [Groth]^17 <#17>*

GROTH: Did you enjoy doing those?

KIRBY: I always enjoyed doing monster books. Monster books gave me theopportunity to draw things out of the ordinary. Monster books were achallenge – what kind of monster would fascinate people? I couldn’t drawanything that was too outlandish or too horrible. I never did that. WhatI did draw was something intriguing. There was something about this

monster that you could live with. If you saw him you wouldn’t faint deadaway. There was nothing disgusting in his demeanor. There was nothingabout him that repelled you. My monsters were lovable monsters.[Laughter.] I gave them names – some were evil and some were good. Theymade sales, and that’s always been my prime object in comics. I had tomake sales in order to keep myself working. And so I put all theingredients in that would pull in sales. It’s always been that way.

*1982 [Eisner]^18 <#18>*

EISNER: So the ideas for superheroes at Marvel and DC were ideas cookedup by you and Stan.

KIRBY: No. That was cooked up by /me/!

EISNER: So you did the first one all by yourself, then.

KIRBY: Oh, yes. /Spider-Man/ wasn’t the first one I did. I began to domonster books. The kind of books Goodman wanted. I had to fight for thesuperheroes. In other words, I was at the stage now where I had to fightfor those things and I did. I had to regenerate the entire line. I feltthat there was nobody there that was qualified to do it. So I began todo it. Stan Lee was my vehicle to do it. He was my bridge to Martin[Goodman].

*1975 [Sherman]^19 <#19>*

SHERMAN: At this time, you also started again at Marvel.

KIRBY: Right. I was given monsters, so I did them. I would much ratherhave been drawing /Rawhide Kid/. But I did the monsters… we had Grottuand Kurrgo and It… it was a challenge to try to do something–/anything/with such ridiculous characters. But these were, in a way, theforefathers of the Marvel super-heroes. We had a Thing, we had a Hulk…and we tried to do them in a more exciting way.

*Hebert [1969]^20 <#20>*

KIRBY: I tried to work it out with Stan [Lee], to hint aboutsuperheroes. There were a few still going but they didn’t have the bigaudience they had. There was a thing I was involved in, /The Fly/, whichgot a reaction and because of that I told Stan that there might be ahope for superheroes. “Why don’t we try Captain America again?” I keptharping on it and Marvel was quiet in those days, like every otheroffice, and then things began to pick up and gain momentum.

…wrote and penciled the pages he turned in to Stan Lee

*Early 1990s [Danzig/Thibodeaux]^21 <#21>*

GLENN: A lot of people don’t know that you actually scripted a lot ofthese stories – most of them. Even the Marvel stuff.

JACK: I did.

*1985 [Van Hise]^22 <#22>*

I was a penciller and a storyteller, and I insisted on doing my ownwriting. I always wrote my own story no matter what it was. Nobody ever

wrote a story for me. I created my own characters. I always did that.That was the whole point of comics for me. I created my own concepts andI enjoyed doing that. That’s how I created the Silver Surfer.

*1982 [Eisner]^23 <#23>*

EISNER: In the stuff you worked on with Stan, was he writing at the time?

KIRBY: No. Stan Lee was not writing. I was doing the writing. It allcame from my basement and I can tell you that if I ever began tointellectualize, it was then… All right. That’s unimportant. All right,I’ll tell you from a professional point of view. I was writing them. Iwas drawing them.

EISNER: But you do not necessarily subscribe to the idea of someoneelse, regardless of who it is, putting balloons in on a completelypenciled page. I have a prejudice on it but I want to get your opinion.

KIRBY: My opinion is this: Stan Lee wrote the credits. I never wrote thecredits.

*1982 [Zimmerman]^24 <#24>*

In his /Bring on the Bad Guys, Origins of Marvel Comics Villains, /StanLee explains the genesis of the group: “Much as I hate to admit it, Ididn’t produce our little Marvel Masterpieces all by myself. No, minewas the task of originating the basic concept, and then writing thescript… However, I’ve long been privileged to collaborate with some ofthe most talented artists of all, artists who would take my rough-hewnplots and refine them into the illustrated stories… Heading the list ofsuch artists… is Jolly Jack Kirby.”

Kirby remembers it somewhat differently. “I wrote them all,” he statesflatly. But what about all those “Smilin’ Stan” and “Jolly Jack” creditboxes? Kirby responds diplomatically. “Well, I never wrote the credits.Let’s put it that way, all right? I would never call myself ‘JollyJack.’ I would never say the books were written by Lee.”

*1990 [/Hour 25/]^25 <#25>*

Caller: Hi, yeah, I was reading Jack Kirby teamed up with Stan Lee withMarvel Comics in the early 60s, so it’s sort of an honor for me. Myquestion is, and I don’t think this has been talked about, how was thecollaboration, which to me was the modern age of comics started withStan Lee and Jack Kirby working together. How did that either come aboutand how did that develop in terms of how you wrote a story?

KIRBY: I wrote the story.

Caller: Huh?

KIRBY: I wrote the complete story. I drew the complete story. And afterI came in with the pencils, the story was given to an inker and theinker would ink the story and a letterer would letter it and I wouldgive the story to Stan Lee or whoever had the editor’s chair and I wouldleave it there. I would tell them the kind of story I would do to followup and then I went home and I would do that story, and I wouldn’t comeinto the office until I had that story finished. And nobody else had towork on a story with me.

Caller: Hmm! Ok. That’s actually a little bit of a surprise. Ok, thank you.

Host: Thank you. It’s the revision of history going on at Marvel for thelast few years.

KIRBY: Yeah, well…

*1989 [Groth]^26 <#26>*

GROTH: I just want to clear one thing up–did you write the Challengers, too?

KIRBY: Yes. I wrote the Challengers. I wrote everything I did. When Iwent back to Marvel, I began to create the new stuff.

GROTH: Did you find that fulfilling?

KIRBY: Of course it was fulfilling. It was a happy time of life. But.But, slowly management suddenly realized I was making money. I say“management,” but I mean an individual. I was making more money than hewas, OK? It’s an individual. And so he says, “Well, you know…” And theold phrase is born. “Screw you. I get mine.” OK? And so I had to renderto Caesar what he considered Caesar’s. And there was a man who neverwrote a line in his life – he could hardly spell – you know, takingcredit for the writing. I found myself coming up with new angles to keepafloat. I was in a bad spot. I was in a spot that I didn’t want to be inand yet I had to be to make a living. So I went to DC, and I begancreating for them.

GROTH: Was Stan your basic contact with Marvel? He was the one that you – ?

KIRBY: Yes. I’d come in, and I’d give Stan the work, and I’d go home,and I wrote the story at home. I drew the story at home. I even letteredin the words in the balloons in pencil.

ROZ KIRBY: Well, you’d put them in the margins.

KIRBY: Sometimes I put them in the margins. Sometimes I put ’em in theballoons, but I wrote the entire story. I balanced the story…

*1987 [Schwartz]^27 <#27>*

JACK: It was in my generation that the publisher came to learn thatsales depended on how you treated the artist… I wrote the stories. Iwrote the plots. I did the drawings–I did the entire thing becausenobody else could do it. They didn’t know how to do it and they didn’tgive a damn. They were taking money they invested in the magazines andputting it in something else. But I made a living off that. So I put outmagazines that sold. I made sure they sold.

BEN: In the last two or three years people have finally come out andsaid you were the prime voice at Marvel. But the Marvel version hasalways been that you and Stan Lee did it, or these were all his ideas.

JACK: Well, the Marvel version is that the Marvel outfit will givecredit to nobody except Stanley, see? Stanley’s one of the family, okay?And he’s the kind of a guy who’ll accept it.

Stan Lee put his name all over the magazines. “Stan Lee presents” and“Stan Lee this” and “Stan Lee that.” And there’s nothing you could doabout it because he was the publisher’s cousin and if you wanted to

sell, that’s how you sold.

*1986 [Borax]^28 <#28>*

JACK: The artists were doing the plotting – Stan was just coordinatingthe books, which was his job. Stan was production coordinator. But theartists were the ones that were handling both story and art. We had to –there was no time not to!

*1986 [Pitts]^29 <#29>*

KIRBY: What I’m trying to do is give the atmosphere up at Marvel. I’mnot trying to attack Stan Lee. I’m not trying to put any onus on StanLee. All I’m saying is; Stan Lee was a busy man with other duties whocouldn’t possibly have the time to suddenly create all these ideas thathe’s said he created. And I can tell you that he never wrote thestories– although he wouldn’t allow us to write the dialogue in theballoons. He didn’t write my stories.

PITTS: You plotted and he did the dialogue?

KIRBY: You can call it plotted. I call it script. I wrote the script andI drew the story. I mean, there was nothing on the first or second pagethat Stan Lee ever knew would go there. But I knew what would go there.I knew how to begin the story. I wrote it in my house. Nobody was therearound to tell me. I worked strictly in my house; I always did. I workedin a small basement in Long Island.

PITTS: Okay, take me through a typical Lee-Kirby comic. Say, from startto finish, an issue of the F.F.

KIRBY: Okay, I’ll give it to you in very short terms: I told Stan Leewhat I wrote and what he was gonna get and Stan Lee accepted it, becauseStan Lee knew my reputation. By that time, I had created or helpedcreate so many different other features that Stan Lee had infiniteconfidence in what I was doing.

…created characters and brought them to Stan Lee

*1999 [Amash]^30 <#30>*

JOHN SEVERIN: Though Jack and I rarely saw one another whilst“S.H.I.E.L.D.” was being produced, I do recall a bit earlier when he andI were at a business conference near Columbus Circle. When it wasconcluded, we–Jack and I–adjourned to a coffee house, nearby whereAnastasia was shot down.

Jack wanted to know if I’d be interested in syndication. He said wecould be partners on a script idea he had. The story would be set inEurope during WWII; the hero would be a tough, cigar-smoking Sergeantwith a squad of oddball G.I.s–sort of an adult Boy Commandos.

Like so many other grand decisions I have made in comics, I peeredthrough the cigar smoke and told him I wasn’t really interested innewspaper strips. We finished cigars and coffee and Jack left, headingtowards Marvel and Stan Lee.

*1989 [Groth]^31 <#31>*

GROTH: Stan says he conceptualized virtually everything in The FantasticFour – that he came up with all the characters. And then he said that hewrote a detailed synopsis for Jack to follow.

ROZ KIRBY: I’ve never seen anything.

KIRBY: I’ve never seen it, and of course I would say that’s an outright lie.

GROTH: Well, this is probably going to shock you, but Stan takes fullcredit for creating the Hulk. He’s written, “Actually, ideas have alwaysbeen the easiest part of my various chores.” And then he went on to saythat in creating The Hulk, “It would be my job to take a clichéd conceptand make it seem new and fresh and exciting and relevant. Once again, Idecided that Jack Kirby would be the artist to breathe life into ourlatest creation. So the next time we met, I outlined the concept I’dbeen toying with for weeks.”

KIRBY: Yes, he was always toying with concepts. On the contrary, it wasI who brought the ideas to Stan. I brought the ideas to DC as well, andthat’s how business was done from the beginning.

GROTH: How did all those books in the ’60s come to be created? Wouldsomeone at Marvel say, “We need another book”?

KIRBY: No. I’d come up with them.

GROTH: You would just come up with them on your own?

KIRBY: Yes, I would come up with them.

GROTH: How do you feel when he talks about what a great guy you are,what a terrific co-worker you were, which he does frequently when askedabout the good ol’ days?

KIRBY: Why wouldn’t he say that?

ROZ KIRBY: Yeah. Look what Jack did for Marvel.

KIRBY: Why wouldn’t he say that? If I hadn’t saved Marvel and if Ihadn’t come up with those features, he would have nothing to work on. Hewouldn’t be working right now. I don’t know what he’d be doing now. Hewouldn’t be in any editorial position.

GROTH: Do you think he believes that, or is that a public relations facade?

KIRBY: What’s that?

GROTH: Oh, that he thinks you’re a great guy, and he loved working with you.

KIRBY: I say it’s a facade, and what he really means is he loved takingme. I just hope that you don’t find yourselves in a position where youhave to deal with that kind of a personality.

ROZ KIRBY: I’d like to say something if I could. Jack created manycharacters before he even met Stan. He created almost all the characterswhen he was associated with Stan, and after he left Stan, he createdmany, many more characters. What has Stan created before he met Jack,and what has he created after Jack left?

KIRBY: And my wife was present when I created these damn characters. The

only reason I would have any bad feelings against Stan is because my ownwife had to suffer through that with me. It takes a guy like Stan,without feeling, to realize a thing like that. If he hurts a guy, healso hurts his family. His wife is going ask questions. His children aregoing to ask questions.

*1987 [/Earthwatch/]^32 <#32>*

KIRBY: I can tell you that I was deeply involved with creatingSpider-man. I can’t go any further than that, really, because there’dbeen so many variations and different things done with Spider-man, but Ican tell you at the beginning, I was deeply involved with him.

*1986 [Pitts]^33 <#33>*

PITTS: Now, Stan has said many times that he conceived Spider-Man andgave it to you and that he turned down the version you came up withbecause it was too “heroic” and “larger than life”-looking for what hehad in mind.

KIRBY: That’s a contradiction and a blatant untruth.

PITTS: Are there any other Marvel flagship characters that you feel youcreated and didn’t get the credit for?

KIRBY: All of them. All of them came from my basement. The Avengers,Daredevil, the X-Men… all of them. The X-Men, I did the natural thingthere. What would you do with mutants who were just plain boys and girlsand certainly not dangerous? You school them. You develop their skills.So I gave them a teacher, Professor X.

PITTS: You obviously feel that you haven’t gotten the credit that’s dueyou for the contributions you’ve made. How does that fact set with you?

ROZ: [TO KIRBY] What he’s trying to bring out is… we are hurt about howMarvel treated you.

KIRBY: Well, yes, I am hurt because up at Marvel, I’m a non-person. Theysay Stan Lee created everything. And of course, Stan Lee didn’t. AndDitko is hurt; Ditko never got his due. The fellas who did make all thesales for the magazines were never given credit for them. They wereabused in one way or another. I can tell you that that’s painful. Youlive with that. You live with that all your life. I have to live withthe fact of all those lies, which are being done for pure hype.

*1982 [Eisner]^34 <#34>*

EISNER: You mean /Spider-Man/ was cooked up between you and Joe Simon,and you brought it to Stan.

KIRBY: That’s right. It was the last thing Joe and I had discussed. Wehad a strip called the, or a script called /The Silver Spider/. /TheSilver Spider/ was going into a magazine called /Black Magic/. /BlackMagic/ folded with Crestwood and we were left with the script. I believeI said this could become a thing called /Spider-Man/, see, a superherocharacter. I had a lot of faith in the superhero character, that theycould be brought back, very, very vigorously. They weren’t being done atthe time. I felt they could regenerate and I said /Spider-Man/ would bea fine character to start with. But Joe had already moved on. So theidea was already there when I talked to Stan.

*1970 [Hamilton]^35 <#35>*

BRUCE: Was the concept of the Fantastic Four your idea or Stan Lee’s?

JACK: It was my idea. It was my idea to do it the way it was; my idea todevelop it the way it was. I’m not saying that Stan had nothing to dowith it. Of course he did. We talked things out. As things went on, Ibegan to work at home and I no longer came up to the office. I developedall the stuff at home and just sent it in. I had to come up with newideas to help the strip sell.

*1970 [San Diego]^36 <#36>*

AUDIENCE: In the Marvel line in the 1960s, what part exactly did youplay in creating the line? Besides art; I mean also plot andcharacterization of all the magazines you worked on in the early issueswhen they were just developing. What part did you play besides art?

KIRBY: Quite a substantial part. That’s all I’m gonna say. [laughter]

*1969 [Hebert]^37 <#37>*

TCJ: You drew almost everything.

KIRBY: I did, just about.

TCJ: You created and drew all of Marvel’s standard heroes.

KIRBY: That’s right.

TCJ: And they were all the same – Thor, Ant Man, Iron Man –

KIRBY: In spite of it.

TCJ: Exactly. Except for the Hulk who was quite different.

KIRBY: I created the Hulk, too, and saw him as a kind of handsomeFrankenstein.

*Early 1980s [Kirby]^38 <#38>*

In the early ’80s during his original art dispute with Marvel, Kirby wasasked by his legal team to make some notes about his work for thecompany. According to Mark Evanier, Kirby dictated the notes to Rozbefore signing them. In addition to the details of creation and credit,he touched on the circumstances that brought him and the company backtogether in their time of mutual need.

/When I arrived at Marvel in 1959, it was closing shop that veryafternoon, according to what was related to me by “Stan Lee.”/

/The comic book dept. was another victim of the Dr. Wertham negativecycle + definitely was following in the wake of EC Comics, “The GainesPublishing House.”/

/In order to keep working I suggested to Stan Lee that to initiate a newline of “Super Heroes” he submit my ideas to Martin Goodman thePublisher of Marvel./

/To insure sales I also did the writing which I was not credited for as“Stan Lee” wrote the credits for all of the books which I did notcontest because of his relationship with the publisher “Martin Goodman.”/

/Although I was not allowed to write the “Balloon” dialogue, thestories, the characters + the additional planning for the scriptsprogress was strictly due to my own foresight + literary workmanship./

/There were no scripts. I created the characters + wrote the stories inmy own home + merely brought them into the office each month./

Workflow

*1989 [Groth]^39 <#39>*

GROTH: Stan wrote, “Jack and I were having a ball turning out monsterstories.” Were you having a ball, Jack?

KIRBY: Stan Lee was having the ball.

GROTH: I’ve seen original art with words written on the sides of the pages.

KIRBY: That would be my dialogue.

GROTH: You would talk to Stan on the phone – what was a typicalconversation like when you were plotting the Fantastic Four: what wouldhe say and what would you say?

KIRBY: On The Fantastic Four, I’d tell him what I was going to do, whatthe story was going to be, and I’d bring it in – that’s all.

GROTH: How long were your discussions with Stan Lee when you werediscussing the next Thor or the next Avengers or the next FantasticFour? How long would you talk to Stan about it?

KIRBY: Not much. I didn’t particularly care to talk to Stan, and I justgave him possibly some idea of what the next story would be like, andthen I went home. I told him very little, and I went home, and Iconceived and put down the entire story on paper.

*1987 [/Earthwatch/]^40 <#40>*

KNIGHT: Well, let’s turn then, to the environment, which may be equallyas important, the environment out of which Spider-man was created. Ofcourse, you were involved in the historic partnership with Stan Lee atMarvel. So, what was the working environment like there? How was itdifferent from the other companies? What was the Merry Marvel MarchingSociety like?

KIRBY: Well, it wasn’t… it wasn’t… well, I didn’t consider it merry. Iconsidered it very… well, in those days, it was a professional typething. You turned in your ideas and you got your wages and you took themhome. It was a very, very simple affair. It’s nothing that could bedramatized or glorified or glamorized in any way. It was a very, verysimple affair. I created the situation and I analyzed them. I did thempanel by panel. I did everything but put the words in the balloons. Butall of it was mine, except the words in the balloons.

REECE: But Jack, what about these legendary story conferences of you and

Stan, or Stan and whomever, acting the stories out, in the office,jumping up on the desks and so forth, making things considerably morelively than when it was just an office consisting of Stan and FabulousFlo Steinberg, having people stick their faces in the door, fromMagazine Management, going, “Hurry up, little elves, Santa will becoming soon!”

KIRBY: Uh, I’d have to disagree with that. It wasn’t like that at all.It may have been like that after I shut the door and went home.

*1971 [Skelly]^41 <#41>*

TCJ: How do you feel about your days at Marvel? Did you like workingwith Stan Lee?

KIRBY: Well, I didn’t exactly work with Stan Lee. I worked at home and Iwasn’t at the office much. I’d come in maybe once or twice a month anddeliver my drawings. Stan Lee would usually be pretty busy, being theeditor there, and I’d deliver my stuff and that would be all there wasto it. I’d tell Stan Lee what the next story was going to be, and I’d gohome and do it.

*1989 [Groth]^42 <#42>*

GROTH: When you went to Marvel in ’58 and ’59, Stan was obviously there.

KIRBY: Yes, and he was the same way.

GROTH: And you two collaborated on all the monster stories?

KIRBY: Stan Lee and I never collaborated on anything! I’ve never seenStan Lee write anything. I used to write the stories just like I always did.

*1982 [Eisner]^43 <#43>*

KIRBY: Stan Lee wouldn’t let me fill in the balloons. Stan Lee wouldn’tlet me put in the dialogue. But I wrote the entire story under thepanels. I never explained the story to Stan Lee. I wrote the story undereach panel so that when he wrote that dialogue, the story was alreadythere. In other words, he didn’t know what the story was about and hedidn’t care because he was busy being an editor. I was glad because hewas doing the same thing Joe did. He left me alone.

EISNER: We’re running out of time here. Let me tail off this thing bygoing back into the technique of work. The laying out of a page. Sinceyou write and draw, you regard yourself as I like to regard myself, as atotal writer. Do you agree that this is a total dimension, that there isno separation between the words and pictures? That they’re integrated?Do you agree with that?

KIRBY: I believe that the man who draws the story should write it.

*1971 [Skelly]^44 <#44>*

TCJ: There was a distinct difference between the stories you drew, andthat probably had a lot to do with the writing…

KIRBY: Well, the policy there is the artist isn’t allowed to do thedialogue, and therefore has to confine himself to the script. What theartist does is the script and the drawing, and the dialogue is filled in

by the writer in the balloons. The artist writes the action in themargin of the illustration board and the writer is therefore able tofollow the action in each individual panel. What the artist does is makethe framework for the dialogue writer.

Kirby’s Inspiration

*1982 [Zimmerman]^45 <#45>*

“My mother was a great storyteller,” Kirby reveals. “She came fromsomewhere near Transylvania and she told me stories that would standyour hair on end. I loved my mother and I loved those stories. The artof storytelling, certainly, is in all of us. But to tell itdramatically, to tell it right, you have to be influenced, I think, in acertain manner. Somewhere along the line, whoever is good has beenraised by people who are good in the same manner.”

/Fantastic Four/

*1992 [Prisoners of Gravity]^46 <#46>*

Q: In the early 1960s, you created hundreds of heroes to populate theMarvel universe. What did the Fantastic Four represent to you?

JACK: The Fantastic Four were the team, they were the young people. Ilove young people, I love teenagers. You’ll find that the Fantastic Fourrepresent that group in many ways. They’re very vital and very active.The teens certainly are in that category. So the Fantastic Four was myadmiration for young people.

The Thing was really myself. If you’ll notice the way the Thing talksand acts, you’ll find that the Thing is really Jack Kirby. He has mymanners, he has my manner of speech, and he thinks the way I do. He’sexcitable, and you’ll find that he’s very, very active among people, andhe can muscle his way through a crowd. I find that I’m that sort of person.

*1975 [Sherman]^47 <#47>*

SHERMAN: As the fifties drew to a close, the super-heroes began toreturn. When you began the /Challengers of the Unknown/, were youstriving more for a super-hero rebirth or for breaking into sciencefiction and adventure material more?

KIRBY: The issues I did were still formative and I can’t answer for whatDC did with them. But they were heading for the super-hero image when Ileft. In many ways, they were the predecessors of the FF.

*1969 [Hebert]^48 <#48>*

TCJ: Then the Fantastic Four came along, which was a small revolution initself.

KIRBY: Well, it was a revolution in the sense that it was /now/ – thesuperhero had become /now/. I felt like experimenting with gimmicks.When I drew a gimmick, it wasn’t the old type of gimmick; it waseverything based on right now and what people saw everyday and what theymight see five or ten years from now. I could take electronic setups andjust let them run riotus, and that led to the gadgets you might see

today. That’s how the Negative Zone came about. I began to experimentwith that kind of stuff and that’s how Ego came about. I began to throwmy mind out in all different directions.

*1989 [Groth]^49 <#49>*

GROTH: Looking back on it, do you see the Challengers as a precursor tothe Fantastic Four?

KIRBY: Yes, there were always precursors to the Fantastic Four – exceptthe Fantastic Four were mutations. When people began talking about thebomb and its possible effect on human beings, they began talking aboutmutations because that’s a distinct possibility. And I said, “That’s agreat idea.” That’s how the Fantastic Four began, with an atomicexplosion and its effect on the characters. Ben Grimm who was a collegeman and a fine looking man suddenly became the Thing. Susan Storm becameinvisible because of the atomic effects on her body. Reed Richardsbecame flexible and became a character that I could work with in variousways. And there were others – mutation effects didn’t only affectheroes, it affected villains too. So I had a grand time with the atomicbomb. [Laughter.]

/Benjamin Grimm/

*1989 [Groth]^50 <#50>*

GROTH: Jack, did you put a lot of yourself into the character of Ben Grimm?

KIRBY: Well, they associated me with Ben Grimm. I suppose I must be alot like Ben Grimm. I never duck out of a fight; I don’t care what thehell the odds are, and I’m rough at times, but I try to be a decent guyall the time. That’s the way I’ve always lived. Because I have children…In other words, my ambition was always to be a perfect picture of anAmerican. An American is a guy, a rich guy with a family, a decent guywith a family with as many kids as he likes, doing what he wants,working with people that he likes, and enjoying himself to his very old age.

/Thor/

*1992 [Prisoners of Gravity]^51 <#51>*

Q: What prompted you to reinvent Thor for the comics in 1962?

JACK: Well, I knew the Thor legends very well, but I wanted to modernizethem. I felt that might be a new thing for comics, taking the oldlegends and modernizing them. I believe I accomplished that.

*1969 [Hebert]^52 <#52>*

KIRBY: There was a time when I had to do a story about a living planet.A planet that was alive; a planet that was intelligent. That was nothingnew either because there had been other stories on live planets butthat’s not acceptable. Oh, I could tell you that there was a livingplanet somewhere and you would say, “Yeah, that’s wild,” but how do yourelate to it? Why is it alive? So I felt somewhere out in the universe,the universe turns liquid – becomes denser and turns liquid – and thatin this liquid, there was a giant multiple virus, and if this multiplevirus remained isolated for millions and millions of years, it would

begin to think. It would begin to evolve by itself and it would begin tothink. By the time we reached it, it might be quite superior to us – andthat was Ego. That was acceptable because I was answering questions thatsomeone might ask about it. It’s a concept. I feel somewhere – in fact,it almost makes sense – that the universe gets denser and the atoms growmore compact and possibly nothingness becomes something and thatsomething gets bigger and it gets bigger and it might resolve itselfinto some kind of liquid atoms. Why not?

*1985 [Van Hise]^53 <#53>*

I did a version of Thor for DC. In the Fifties before I did him forMarvel. He had a red beard but he was a legendary figure, which I liked.I liked the figure of Thor at DC and I created Thor at Marvel because Iwas forever enamored of legends. I knew all about these legends which iswhy I knew about Balder, Heimdall and Odin. I tried to update Thor andput him in a superhero costume. He looked great in it and everybodyloved him, but he was still Thor.

*1989 [Groth]^54 <#54>*

KIRBY: I loved Thor because I loved legends. I’ve always loved legends.Stan Lee was the type of guy who would never know about Balder and whowould never know about the rest of the characters. I had to build upthat legend of Thor in the comics.

GROTH: The whole Asgardian…

KIRBY: Yes. The whole Asgardian company, see? I built up Loki. I simplyread Loki was the classic villain and, of course, all the rest of them.I even threw in the Three Musketeers. I drew them from Shakespeareanfigures. I combined Shakespearean figures with the Three Musketeers andcame up with these three friends who supplemented Thor and his company,and this is the way I kept these strips going by creative little stepslike that.

/Galactus/

*1987 [Viola]^55 <#55>*

KV: There was an incredible run of issues of the Fantastic Four, inwhich you created Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Inhumans, and theBlack Panther.

JK: Yes, that’s true.

KV: Do you recall that period of creative breakthrough, and yourinspirations?

JK: My inspirations were the fact that I had to make sales and come upwith characters that were no longer stereotypes. In other words, Icouldn’t depend on gangsters, I had to get something new.

For some reason I went to the Bible, and I came up with Galactus. Andthere I was in front of this tremendous figure, who I knew very wellbecause I’ve always felt him. I certainly couldn’t treat him in the sameway I could any ordinary mortal. And I remember in my first story, I hadto back away from him to resolve that story. The Silver Surfer is, ofcourse, the fallen angel. When Galactus relegated him to Earth, he

stayed on Earth, and that was the beginning of his adventures.

*1985 [Van Hise]^56 <#56>*

I’d been using gangsters and it wasn’t fair for superheroes to fightgangsters. My basic philosophy, if you want to call it that, isfairness. I believe in fairness. Gangsters wouldn’t stand a chanceagainst superheroes so I had to find people as good as superheroes whocould compete on their own level and that gave rise to the supervillain.I found myself coming out with the most powerful villain, and the mostcontroversial (which is great for sales), and that’s Galactus. I feltthat somewhere around the cosmos are powerful things that we knownothing about and from that came Galactus. He was almost like a god andthat’s where I came up with the god concepts. There might be things outthere that are ultimates compared to us.

*1989 [Groth]^57 <#57>*

GROTH: How did you come up with Galactus?

KIRBY: Galactus was God, and I was looking for God. When I first came upwith Galactus, I was very awed by him. I didn’t know what to do with thecharacter.

Everybody talks about God, but what the heck does he look like? Well,he’s supposed to be awesome, and Galactus is awesome to me. I drew himlarge and awesome. No one ever knew the extent of his powers oranything, and I think symbolically that’s our relationship [with God].

/Doctor Doom/

*1982 [Eisner]^58 <#58>*

KIRBY: I began to define characters.

EISNER: Give me an example.

KIRBY: Okay, I’ll give you Doctor Doom, who is one of my characters. Dr.Doom is a handsome guy… But first, I began with the classics that werevery powerful. What comics were doing all the time was updating theclassics. So, I borrowed from /Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde/. I felt therewas a Mr. Hyde in all of us and that was a character I wanted and Icalled him the Hulk. In the legend of Thor, I began to update Thor. Ifelt that Thor needed friends so I went to the /Four Musketeers/, andthat was the basis.

*1969 [Hebert]^59 <#59>*

KIRBY: Dr. Doom is paranoid. He thinks he’s ugly and he wants the wholeworld to be like him. Dr. Doom is the fox who had his tail cut off, andhe’s trying to talk the whole world into having their tails cut off sowhen everyone has his tail cut off, he becomes the most handsome fox.That’s ridiculous, because paranoids are insane people who never gettheir way. Hitler tried it, you know.

/The Hulk/

*1982 [Zimmerman]^60 <#60>*

“I did a mess of things. The only book I didn’t work on was /Spider-Man,/which Steve Ditko did. But Spider-Man was my creation. The Hulk was mycreation. It was simply /Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. /I was borrowing fromthe classics. They are the most powerful literature there is… I wasbeginning to find myself as a thinking human being. I began to thinkabout things that were real. I didn’t want to tell fairy tales. I wantedto tell things as they are. But I wanted to tell them in an entertainingway. And I told it in the /Fantastic Four /and I told it in /Sgt. Fury…/If I wanted to tell the entire truth about the world, I could do itwith /Robinson Crusoe, /and do /Robinson Crusoe /for the rest of my life.”

*1969 [Hebert]^61 <#61>*

KIRBY: I created the Hulk, too, and saw him as a kind of handsomeFrankenstein.

TCJ: Strangely enough, that was my first impression, but everyone elsethought he was a monster to be pitied.

KIRBY: I never felt the Hulk was a monster, because I felt the Hulk wasme. I feel all the characters were me. Being a monster is just thesurface thing. I won’t accept that either because I want to know why theHulk jumps around, what the limits of his strength are. I feel that theHulk’s strength is unlimited for some damn reason I don’t understand.It’s just unlimited, and when I had him fight with the Thing, I felt theHulk broke it off at a point where he hadn’t fully tested his strength.I feel it should be that way.

/The Black Panther/

*1986 [Borax]^62 <#62>*

MARK: The Panther.

JACK: The Panther. I got to hemming and hawing – “You know, there’snever been a black man in comics.” And I brought in a picture of thiscostumed guy which was later modified so he could have a lot moremovement. Actually, at first he was a guy with a cape, and all I did wastake the cape off and there he was in fighting stance, unencumbered. TheBlack Panther came in, and of course we got a new audience! We got theaudience we should’ve gotten in the first place. We began to accumulatenew readers and Marvel got back on its feet and then – (pause) – I left.

*1989 [Groth]^63 <#63>*

GROTH: How did you come up with the Black Panther?

KIRBY: I came up with the Black Panther because I realized I had noblacks in my strip. I’d never drawn a black. I needed a black. Isuddenly discovered that I had a lot of black readers. My first friendwas a black! And here I was ignoring them because I was associating witheverybody else. It suddenly dawned on me – believe me, it was for humanreasons – I suddenly discovered nobody was doing blacks. And here I am aleading cartoonist and I wasn’t doing a black. I was the first one to doan Asian. Then I began to realize that there was a whole range of humandifferences. Remember, in my day, drawing an Asian was drawing Fu Manchu– that’s the only Asian they knew. The Asians were wily…

*The Silver Surfer*

*1986 [Borax]^64 <#64>*

JACK: I got the Silver Surfer, and I suddenly realized here was thedramatic situation between God and the Devil! The Devil himself was anarchangel. The Devil wasn’t ugly – he was a /beautiful/ guy! He was theguy that challenged God.

MARK: That’s the Surfer challenging Galactus.

JACK: And Galactus says, “You want to see my power? Stay on Earth forever!”

MARK: He exiled the Surfer out of Paradise.

JACK: And of course the Surfer is a good character, but he got a littlebit of an ego and it destroyed him. That’s very natural. If we got anego it might destroy us. People say, “Look at him – who does he think heis? We knew him when.” They throw tomatoes at you. Of course, Galactus,in his own way, and maybe the people of his type, are also doing that tothe Surfer. They were people of a certain class and power, and if anyone of ’em became pretentious or affectacious, they would do the samething. /We/ would do the same thing. If a movie star walked past you andgave you the snub, you’d give him a hot foot just to show him, “I paidmy money to see you – and that’s what you’re living on.” You’re not justa face in the crowd – you’re a moviegoer, you plunk your dough down, andthis guy lives off it.

*1970 [San Diego]^65 <#65>*

AUDIENCE: What was your inspiration for the Silver Surfer?

KIRBY: Gee, I don’t know. The Silver Surfer came out of a feeling;that’s the only thing I can say. When I drew Galactus, I just don’t knowwhy, but I suddenly figured out that Galactus was God, and I found thatI’d made a villain out of God, and I couldn’t make a villain out of him.And I couldn’t treat him as a villain, so I had to back away from him. Ibacked away from Galactus, and I felt he was so awesome, and in some wayhe was God, and who would accompany God, but some kind of fallen angel?And that’s who the Silver Surfer was. And at the end of the story,Galactus condemned him to Earth, and he couldn’t go into space anymore.So the Silver Surfer played his role in that manner. And, y’know, Ican’t say why; it just happened. And that was the Silver Surfer, Isuppose you might call it – I don’t know, some kind of response to aninner feeling.

*1989 [Groth]^66 <#66>*

KIRBY: My conception of the Silver Surfer was a human being from spacein that particular form. He came in when everybody began surfing – Iread about it in the paper.

The kids in California were beginning to surf. I couldn’t do an ordinaryteenager surfing so I drew a surfboard with a man from outer space on it.

Telling the truth

*1986 [Pitts]^67 <#67>*

KIRBY: The only thing I can add is that I’ve been telling the truth andI’ll never speak to another person without telling the truth. I’ve beena cruel man in my time, I’ve been a devious man in my time, likeeverybody else. I’ve told lies in my time. But I’ve seen enoughsuffering to experiment with the truth.

Since I’ve matured, since the war itself–I’ve always been a feisty guy,but since the war itself, there are people that I didn’t like, but I sawthem suffer and it changed me. I promised myself that I would never tella lie, never hurt another human being, and I would try to make the worldas positive as I could.

Legacy

*1989 [Groth]^68 <#68>*

KIRBY: I can say that I’ve done my job extremely well. My only beef isthat a lot of people have put their fingers in whatever I’ve done andtried to screw it up, and I’ve always resented that. I always resentanybody interfering with anybody else trying to do his job. Everybodyhas his own job to do. If he’s good, he’ll do well, but if he’smediocre, he’s not going to do as well as he should. I believe that I’min a thorough, professional class who’ll give you the best you can get.You won’t get any better than the stuff that I can do… I’ve never doneanything half-heartedly. It’s the reason my comics did well. It’s thereason my comics were drawn well. I can’t do anything bad. I won’t doanything bad, and I resent very deeply bad people who haven’t got theability, who try to interfere with the kind of work I’m trying to dobecause nobody’s going to benefit from it. If you’re a thoroughprofessional, and they won’t let you do a professional job, nobody’sgoing to benefit from it. The people who produce it won’t benefit. Thepeople who buy it won’t benefit from it. They’re going to get ahalf-assed product, and I believe that’s what the editorial people incomics at that time bought. They bought a half-assed product, or theycreated a half-assed product, and that’s what they got in return, theygot half-assed returns… If I’ve done it myself, I’ve always beensatisfied. If somebody interfered, it always created a bad period in mylife.

Footnotes

/The repetition in the footnotes allows linking back to specific quotes./

back <#ref1> ^1 Bruce Hamilton interview, conducted shortly after Jackleft Marvel in 1970, published in /Rocket’s Blast Comicollector/ #81,1971 (TJKC 18, Jan 1998).

back <#ref2> ^2 Tim Skelly conducting, “The Great Electric Bird” show,WNUR-FM, Northwestern University (Evanston, IL), 14 May 1971; laterpublished in /The Nostalgia Journal /27, Aug 1976.

back <#ref3> ^3 Howard Zimmerman, “Kirby Takes on the Comics,” /ComicsScene /#2, March 1982.

back <#ref4> ^4 Gary Groth, conducted in summer of 1989, /The ComicsJournal /#134, February 1990.

back <#ref5> ^5 Ben Schwartz, /UCLA Daily Bruin. /Conducted 4 Dec 1987,published 22 Jan 1988 (/The Jack Kirby Collector /23, Feb 1999).

back <#ref6> ^6 Leonard Pitts, Jr., conducted in 1986 or 1987 for a booktitled “Conversations With The Comic Book Creators”. Posted on /TheKirby Effect: The Journal of the Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center./

back <#ref7> ^7 James Van Hise, “Superheroes: The Language That JackKirby Wrote,” /Comics Feature /#34, March-April 1985.


back <#ref9> ^9 Shop Talk, Jack Kirby interviewed by Will Eisner, /WillEisner’s Spirit Magazine /39, July 1982.


back <#ref11> ^11 “An interview with Drew Friedman,” conducted by KliphNesteroff, /WFMU’s Beware of the Blog, /August 08, 2010.

back <#ref12> ^12 Dick Ayers interviewed by Roy Thomas and Jim Amash,/Alter Ego /V3No31, December 2003.

back <#ref13> ^13 “A Conversation with Artist-Writer Larry Lieber,”interviewed by Roy Thomas, /Alter Ego /V3No2, Fall 1999.

back <#ref14> ^14 Jim Vadeboncouer (based on a story uncovered by BradElliot), “The Great Atlas Implosion,” /The Jack Kirby Collector /#18,January 1998.

back <#ref15> ^15 Flo Steinberg interviewed by Jim Salicrup and DwightJon Zimmerman, /Comics Interview /#17, November 1984.

back <#ref16> ^16 Michael Vassallo, by email, 22 October 2014 and 4January 2015.


back <#ref18> ^18 Shop Talk, Jack Kirby interviewed by Will Eisner,/Will Eisner’s Spirit Magazine /39, July 1982.

back <#ref19> ^19 Steve Sherman, 1975, /The Jack Kirby Collector/ #8,January 1996. (Originally presented in the 1975 Comic Art Conventionprogram book.)

back <#ref20> ^20 Mark Hebert, conducted early 1969, appeared in /TheNostalgia Journal /#30, November 1976, and #31, December 1976.

back <#ref21> ^21 Glenn Danzig with Mike Thibodeaux, conducted early1990s, /The Jack Kirby Collector /#22, December 1998.




back <#ref25> ^25 Mike Hodel’s /Hour 25, /Jack Kirby radio interviewconducted by J. Michael Strazcynski and Larry DiTillio, 13 April 1990.Transcript posted on /The Kirby Effect: The Journal of the Jack KirbyMuseum & Research Center./


back <#ref27> ^27 Ben Schwartz, /UCLA Daily Bruin. /Conducted 4 Dec1987, published 22 Jan 1988 (/The Jack Kirby Collector /23, Feb 1999).

back <#ref28> ^28 Mark Borax interview, /Comics Interview #/41, 1986.

back <#ref29> ^29 Leonard Pitts, Jr., conducted in 1986 or 1987 for abook titled “Conversations With The Comic Book Creators”. Posted on /TheKirby Effect: The Journal of the Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center./

back <#ref30> ^30 John Severin interviewed by Jim Amash, /The Jack KirbyCollector /#25, August 1999.


back <#ref32> ^32 Robert Knight’s /Earthwatch/, Jack Kirby radiointerview conducted by Warren Reece and Max Schmid, WBAI New York, 28August 1987. Transcript posted on /The Kirby Effect: The Journal of theJack Kirby Museum & Research Center./



back <#ref35> ^35 Bruce Hamilton interview, conducted shortly after Jackleft Marvel in 1970, published in /Rocket’s Blast Comicollector/ #81,1971 (TJKC 18, Jan 1998).

back <#ref36> ^36 San Diego Golden State Comic-Con panel, 1 August 1970,printed in /The Jack Kirby Collector /#57, Summer 2011.


back <#ref38> ^38 Handwritten notes signed by Jack Kirby, Justia,Dockets & Filings, Second Circuit, New York, New York Southern DistrictCourt, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al, Filing 97, ExhibitRR. Posted on /The Kirby Effect: The Journal of the Jack Kirby Museum &Research Center./


back <#ref40> ^40 Robert Knight’s /Earthwatch/, Jack Kirby radiointerview conducted by Warren Reece and Max Schmid, WBAI New York, 28August 1987. Transcript posted on /The Kirby Effect: The Journal of the

Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center./






back <#ref46> ^46 Rick Green, Prisoners of Gravity, TVOntario, 1992.Transcript published in /The Jack Kirby Collector /#14, February 1997.

back <#ref47> ^47 Steve Sherman, 1975, /The Jack Kirby Collector/ #8,January 1996. (Originally presented in the 1975 Comic Art Conventionprogram book.)




back <#ref51> ^51 Rick Green, Prisoners of Gravity, TVOntario, 1992.Transcript published in /The Jack Kirby Collector /#14, February 1997.




back <#ref55> ^55 Ken Viola, “Jack Kirby – The Master of Comic BookArt,” transcript of his interview of Kirby for the film, /The Masters ofComic Book Art,/conducted February, 1987. Published in /The Jack KirbyCollector /#7, October 1995.









back <#ref65> ^65 San Diego Golden State Comic-Con panel, 1 August 1970,printed in /The Jack Kirby Collector /#57, Summer 2011.




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