It Takes a Village Panel May 27 , 2021

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It Takes a Village Panel

May 27th, 2021

[Start of recorded material 00:00:00]

Kristyn: Hello everyone and have a good evening. It's so great to see you all here tonight. Welcome to the It Takes a Village panel. My name is Kristyn Wong-Tam, I'm a Toronto City councillor, I'll be tonight's moderator and I'm just very pleased that all of you are here.

I [00:01:00] want to just say that we are going to get going and begin our discussion. This discussion is going to last for roughly about 90 minutes. We have gathered an esteemed group of panelists to share their wisdom and thoughts with us. And we're looking forward to a lively, engaged discussion.

As we do at the City of Toronto, we always start with a land acknowledgement and I'd like to acknowledge that we are, [00:01:30] I believe, most of us gathered on the lands that are the traditional territories of many nations including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and Wendat [00:01:41] people, Toronto is now and will be for many, many generations into the future still home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Métis people.

We also like to acknowledge that Toronto is covered by Treaty 13 with the Mississaugas of the Credit. I [00:02:00] say the land acknowledgement as an act of reconciliation understanding the Truth and Reconciliation Commission put forward a series of calls to action. And I want to reflect on myself as an immigrant, as someone who came here with choice, with my parents, maybe I didn't have full choice, but certainly my parents did. And I want to acknowledge my own position here as here in social location as a settler. And I want to think all of you for being here this [00:02:30] evening.

It is going to be an incredible discussion. I'm really looking forward to it. For the past few weeks as we were planning this particular discussion that we really wanted to select panelists and speakers that were going to come from a wide walk of life. They have diverse experiences, which means that they're going to come to the discussion with a lot of different opinions. And some of will have overlap and we're going to welcome all of that.

This [00:03:00] conversation is going to also be, this is the first initiative of a wider campaign for my office. We want to be – to use this evening, this particular webinar as a catalyst. We want this to actually propel the thinking and the doing of work about what it is – what does it take for us to define culture? Who gets to have a say? How do the spaces that you [00:03:30] and I gather in, often times commercial, sometimes public,


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sometimes private, how do we maintain all of that in a city that's becoming increasingly expensive, sometimes polarizing with respect to the socioeconomic divides, and often times under tremendous development pressure. Everywhere it goes it feels like there is a crane in the sky.

And we have seen, of course, a number of threats to our valued cultural [00:04:00] spaces. It doesn't even matter if it's in Kensington Market, or Chinatown, or Little Jamaica, or the Church and Wellesley Village, which I have the honour and distinct pleasure of representing, it just seems like everywhere in the city people are having this conversation about affordability, revitalization versus gentrification, and what does it take for us to define culture, how we come together, and how can we promote that?

Respondent 6: So this evening is really about [00:04:30] taking one step out of the many steps to come, to foster that conversation and hopefully to develop some tools and some strategies on how we can support businesses while we promote culture, while we promote heritage, and think about what the COVID post-recovery looks like. Because obviously we know the pandemic has changed everything, but out of that experience of significant hardship and challenges, many personal sacrifices have been made, how do we make it [00:05:00] better? And we can't go back to normal, because we know that normal didn't work for everyone.

I want to encourage you to keep a lookout for new materials on my website and social channels for updates about this campaign and how we can continue to therefore share more resources. We are asking people to use a hashtag, #ittakesavillage, if you want to follow in this discussion. That is something that we really are keenly interest in [00:05:30].

This evening is recorded for viewing tonight, but also live screen. It's going to be shared in the future, so it becomes a resource and we want people to continue to come back to it. We are going to document the conversation obviously on May 27, 2021. If we take a look at this discussion a year from now or two years from now, will everything that we have said still stay relevant? Has anything changed, what happens [00:06:00] next?

So tonight's discussion, as you know we have six panelists. I want to be able to recognize that we brought them together because they are big thinkers. They are people who are culture keepers, who are artists, who are planners, who are doers, they run small businesses, they are documentary filmmakers, they are urban planners, they are architects. It is incredible who we've gathered here this evening.

Local planning is becoming [00:06:30] increasingly important in every single community, but we also recognize that people deserve to have a say in how their neighbourhoods are built up. There are many technical legislative acts that cover land use planning and development, in Ontario.


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Often times it's The Planning Act, followed by the Heritage Act, and there's a whole bunch of other tools that professional planners use to build up a neighbourhood.

But how often do we get to cast that aside [00:07:00] for a moment, and dream outside the box? And to think about how we colour outside those lines.

And that's where I think we need to go because the existing tools haven't always served us well, they are far too limiting.

And so tonight's discussion we want to go way outside the box. We want to colour outside those lines to find out how do we define spaces that are meaningful to us, who gets to define them, and what do we need to change about the [00:07:30] political and policy framework to get us to a better place?

And a better place would, of course, include more affordable spaces, spaces that are more accessible, barrier free, spaces that promote culture as opposed to sanitizing and corporatizing it. Spaces that can be gritty and on the edge because sometimes that’s when innovation and creativity take place.

And these discussions will, of course, be philosophical. They will also probably conflict and [00:08:00] rub up against each other. But I don't think there's going to be any right or wrong answer, and that’s what's so exciting about this panelists.

So let me start off by saying hello to our panelists. They have very distinguished and incredible bios. You can visit them online when you come to Kristynwongtan.ca. They do have their full bios there and I encourage you to go visit us online under the banner of It Takes a Village, because I'm certainly not going [00:08:30] to be able to read their full accreditation to you tonight.

But I did want us to welcome Lulu Wei, who is a Toronto-based director and cinematographer who holds an MFA in document media from Ryerson University. Lulu's work explores themes of space making, cultural identity and queerness. A recipient of numerous awards by a documentary who has actually been broadly seen [00:09:00] and has been also aired on Hot Docs in 2020 where they won a Rogers Audience Award. So that's like the People's Choice Award, which is kind of awesome and excellent.

Abigail Moriah. Welcome Abigail. I've had the pleasure of knowing and working with you for a number of years. You are a consultant, she is an urban planner specializing in affordable housing, mixed use development, over the past 10 years [00:09:30] she's worked with Toronto Community Housing, New Commons Development, the Co-op Housing Federation of Canada, and she is also the founding member of Mentorship Initiative for


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Indigenous Black and Planners of Colour. And she is also has launched the Black Planning Project. So welcome to you.

Michael McClelland, also another one with a very long accreditation, but I'm going to keep [00:10:00] it short because we simply will have to run into the next day if we said all the things that Michael did, like all of our panellists. Michael is a registered architect, a founding principle of ERA Architects. He's certainly well-known to us at the City. Michael has specialized in heritage conservation, heritage planning, urban design for over 30 years. He began his career in municipal government notably for the Toronto Historical Board. And Michael [00:10:30] is a frequent contributor to many different conversations and discourse surrounding architecture as well as landscape in Canada.

I know Michael has also – you might recognize his name on the spine of several books that are all about Toronto, our neighbourhoods and he is dabbling in everything.

Our next panelist is Itah Sadu. Itah is an incredible, dynamic entrepreneur [00:11:00]. She's a community builder, she utilizes creativity and leadership, and she definitely builds infrastructure amongst teams.

You will probably recognize her as the co-owner of A Different Booklist, one of the few independent bookstores left in Toronto with a focus, which – and this part is really important – a focus on finding literary gems that reflect Toronto, the African-Canadian, and Caribbean-Canadian identity [00:11:30].

She does all of this and so much more including being an incredible, iconic member of the Black Canadian community in Canada.

Following Itah, and it's hard to follow Itah, is Michael Erickson. You will recognize Michael as a permanent fixture within the Church and Wellesley Village. But he's not just the guy-about-town. He's also the lead owner of Glad Day Bookstore, the world's oldest LGBTQ [00:12:00] bookstore. Glad Day isn't just a bookstore and a bar anymore, it has morphed under the leadership and ownership of Michael. It now serves as a community and cultural hub.

It runs over 70 events a month – I said 70, not 17 – providing a wide range of support to people in need. During the pandemic – and this is something I want to share, because I'm very proud to share it, I think Michael must be proud of his work as well – Glad Day [00:12:30] Lit raised over $300,000 for LGBTQ artists, performers and cash-based workers. They were one of the first ones to step up to do this work, and I know that they did it before any order of government that I noticed.

Glad Day Lit has provided over 900 emergency grants, and paid artists and performers over 17 hundred times, over 2020. Clearly not only are


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they a cultural hub, they are a major economic [00:13:00] employer and producer.

Finally, last but not least, is Michele Baptiste. She is with the Bear Clan, a member of the Algonquin First Nations, Pikwakanagan in Golden Lake Ontario. I have the distinct pleasure of working with Michele on a project that is very close to my heart, and I know it's close to hers as well. She's the lead manager, project manager, of the Indigenous Centre for Innovation Entrepreneurship for the City of Toronto [00:13:30]. It is going to be the largest business incubator and accelerator for Indigenous people in the world.

All under Michele's leadership.

She has been giving back to the community for over two decades. She has spent a lot of her time volunteering in the Indigenous community, working with the Native Canadian Centre of Toronto, the Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto, the First Nations Financial Management Board, Women and Leadership Foundation, the Advisory Committee for the [00:14:00] Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards, and the Dreamcatcher Charitable Fund.

That was a mouthful. But I think that you understand why I need you to go to the website to take a look at who these incredible panelists are, because there's so much more to be said about them. And what I've just given you is simply a snapshot.

OK. So let's get into the discussion.

So, we recognize that Toronto's [00:14:30] under development pressure. And it doesn't matter where I turn, every single neighbourhood, some more than others, seems to be living under not just one crane, but a cluster of cranes. They don't just represent, obviously, changes in the build form, this is the buildings. It also represents a change in use. And often time, I think, that we can recognize that the cultural use, the language, our human interaction, changes when the [00:15:00] buildings change.

So my first question is, "What is the difference between heritage and culture from an architectural lens?" and I'm going to get Michael to kick us off because I think – or so I should say, Michael McClelland because there's two Michaels, if you can kick us off with a simple answer to that question, if it is simple.

Michael M.: Unmute myself. I'll try to be as simple as I [00:15:30] can be.

There's the Heritage Act, Ontario Heritage Act, which allows us to protect heritage – but when we protect heritage it's really only the buildings. So for example, Kensington Market, we can say we've got a heritage district, it's going to protect Kensington Market. But it's limited


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in the sense it can't protect the cheese shop. It can't protect that the cheese shop will always produce cheese. So it can protect the building.

And so what in fact it does in the City of Toronto [00:16:00] is creates more value for Kensington Market, but it gentrifies it. It simply gentrifies it.

And so our heritage protections are quite skewed in that way.

Culture, we don't actually have a definitely of culture and a way to look at protecting culture. And that's, I think, what we need to talk about tonight. I would say there's the Heritage Act and the Planning Act, and the Planning Act talks about where development can happen, and I think at the moment the Planning [00:16:30] Act, our official plan, is treating us badly.

We're not actually – we're getting tremendous development in the downtown core, not in the suburbs, and that, in fact, is leading to great displacement. And we're not addressing – The Planning Act is – the planning – the official plan is not dealing with displacement. And we're displacing poor folks, a range of Indigenous people – Indigenous people, people of colour, even you know, my architect's [00:17:00] office is going to go, because all of these things are being pushed by massive development, which is a policy of the official plan.

Kristyn: And do you think that there's a way for us to run away from the official plan and outthink The Heritage Act simply because you’ve identified that there are some restrictions, and the fact that we can't define culture seems quite remarkable, because that's exactly [00:17:30] what we want to do. We want to preserve culture and protect culture and promote it.

Michael, I'm going to give you a chance to answer that question but then I want Abigail to pipe in and share with us some of her perspectives.

Michael M: Yeah, I'd love to hear from Abigail.

The – we have to follow policy, so there's a legal process, we have to follow policy. So we actually have to change things. And I think we have to bring forward culture as a more significant driver [00:18:00] in official plan.

But we can do it informally – like we can do lots of things without actually changing the plan. But long-term we have to ensure that we're protecting cultural things be they – I think the Glad Day Bookstore, the [Finite 00:18:15] Community Centre, the Gay and Lesbian Archives, are fundamental things that are of cultural value for the Church and Wellesley neighbourhood.

And right now there's a policy that's going to lead to [00:18:30] gentrification and displacement of these cultural things.


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Kristyn: Michael, thank you. So I'm going to turn over to Abigail because she's also a planner. She works often times in the same world that you do. It's one that’s bounded by regulations and legislation official plans.

Michael is suggesting that perhaps, although we have to work under the lens of policy, is that we also need to do it outside of policy. And Abigail, can you think of an [00:19:00] example or two about communities working outside of policy?

Abigail: I mean one of the things I was thinking about, I was reading a Space-making [00:19:08] article the other day and it talked about the ways in which there was place-making happening in different communities. And so this was really a ground-up approach, so it wasn't necessarily they were responding to, perhaps development per se.

But one example was the – it's called the Black Futures Project. Or Black Futures Now, [00:19:30] pardon me, and they have the Mapping Black Futures Project. And what they did is to bring together Black youth, particularly open and non-gender conforming, to actually do place-making and mark places of significance to them. People who are typically excluded and are over-policed in places or feel unwelcome in places, and they were using that to actually map out and mark places that were significant to them, and then also putting it onto a digital map and to talk about how they use [00:20:00] those spaces.

So I think one of the things that I see with the way in which we do heritage is it's very top heavy. So we – there's a heritage preservation board or committee, and that committee, which is appointed, is you know, advising council on what may have heritage value or not. And working through the process, however, the question I have is what are opportunities for the community to be more involved in shaping that, outside of perhaps deputing at council when something is [00:20:30] before council.

So there's a lot of those pieces of, let's say, guerilla place-making in some ways. But I would just say it's community-based place-making. It's people saying that no, I live here, I use this space, I value this space, and I'm not seeing myself or the way I use it or my culture reflected and I want to jump in and do something about that.

So for me the question is, how do we get back to community? And I think that was one of the interesting things I was – I kind of – I did a bit of my research I mentioned before [00:21:00], so certainly look at the heritage policy, but also thinking about how there is a plan or some of the definitions are in the ministry of culture [shorten form 00:21:07] talked about the cultural plan and place-making that way.

And that felt very – even if it may not be the way in which we do it in practice, when I read how it's described it feels more in tune with engaging community and shaping a space that would be based on


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community, rather than a prescriptive and overly – and [00:21:30] over – an over emphasis on the built environment.

Kristyn: No, Abigail, thank you. And I think I'm just going to ask this one more question. What does a ground-up approach look like? Because I mean obviously we're – and you described sort of guerilla place-making. All of that means that community has got to lean in. Like the people, the public has got to take control of it.

Can you give us an example of how would that happen, so for example, in [00:22:00] Kensington Market. A neighbourhood that – you know, it's hard to see right angles there. It seems that every floor is a little bit sloped, every single vendor is encroaching into the public realm. The rules that seem to apply to the rest of the city sometimes are pushed to the boundaries there.

Is that what you mean by a grounds-up approach of sort of taking it from the community and building it?

Abigail: Yeah. I think so. I think what I'm kind of trying to refer to is the – how do we [00:22:30] understand how community sees and interacts with a particular space or environment, and then build from there rather than it be something that's defined by – I know it's not that simple, but you know, a checklist or – it has to fit into a particular box.

And I think that gives some flexible around how we think about space and how a community may engage with the space and what they define as meaningful. So it may look very different in Kensington. What do the business owners think? What about the people [00:23:00] who live there? What about the people who patronize there who may not actually live in Kensington but they go to that space and they use it in their particular ways.

So I think it's really trying to find a variety of voices to understand their interaction and their use of spaces and how they're reflected there.

Kristyn: Thank you. I think that's a great point. What I wanted to do is maybe just ask, does government have to be the convenor of those [00:23:30] activities? So, for example we often times hear, "What is government going to do to save this or save that or protect this or protect that? But we've often – we've just now learned, and I think most of us already knew this, but it's certainly been reinforced, is that we live under these certain regulations.

So relying only on government hasn't always produced the right results. And it doesn't matter if it's the municipal, provincial or federal government, at the end of the day we need people, people power to [00:24:00] drive us through.


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My question is going to go to both Michael and Lulu for a moment. Michael, there has been conversations about the gay village, and its vitality and it's resilience into the future. Interestingly enough, when I Google gay villages and threat, every single gay village around the world seems to be facing the same type of fate. Is it being de-gayed?

So therefore we're losing [00:24:30] our gay cache because there's now Tinder and Grindr, we can hook up anywhere. The places of acceptance that we now have is greater in society. And are the buildings the ones that need to be saved, or is it the activity that takes place inside Glad Day that need to be preserved? Like, is it the dance floor of Woody's that need to be protected, or is it the building that houses Woody's?

And Michael if you [00:25:00] want to just give us your thoughts on that first.

Michael E.: yeah, I mean obviously have to – there's lots to say but let me try and – just for folks that might not know, though, I think it's important to understand that there is a global pattern around queer spaces and queer neighbourhoods. Right? So in the past you know, queer and trans places often went to places that were undesirable, that were dangerous, where rents were low. Where you could do stuff and not necessarily be policed by gentrifiers, quite frankly, right?

And then, of course [00:25:30] those neighbourhoods get improved. They actually don't become gentrified right away, there becomes an added value, in terms of even safety and community. And then the capitalists come in, right? With money and development and then gentrify and so now, you know, that then it was desirable, for example, like a gay or lesbian space where the dance party that made it you know, desirable to be in, now that same space is getting ticketed for making too much noise, right? By people who live in the [00:26:00] area and don't appreciate the cultural significance to it.

So I think that obviously, like, spaces in which people gather and create culture and community and art are essential. Which building it is in doesn't matter. But I do think it matters who controls the building. You know? And I think that that is something that's a little bit dangerous to talk about because I know that, you know, obviously I spent most of my youth going to monthly parties across the city because no one could afford rented [00:26:30] – at one location for a month, right?

And so we've often found creative ways to take up space, but it's been out of a lack of agency. It's been out of a lack of owning the tools of capitalism, right? Owning the spaces. So even Glad Day we pay rent, which many of you know is almost $18,000 a month. Right? And so in order to make that you have to sell something like alcohol. Right? And so we're also now forced to find ways to make money when really we just want to makes space [00:27:00] right?


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So the culture making becomes a money-making enterprise when I just want to make culture.

So there that there's all these tensions that occur and then you know, suddenly when the condos go up, you know, I imagine that we would increase our revenue and our profit, because you have more bodies in the neighbourhood to spend more at Glad Day, but they're going to Starbucks and A&W. Right? They don't have a loyalty to the spaces and places that [00:27:30] exist in the neighbourhood. And in fact they might see us as detracting from where they now live.

Kristyn: Michael, thank you. I think that you raised a really interesting point is that you – and I think that there are many other cultural makers in the city are very interested in the activity. The space. Bringing people together, the human connection, interaction. And you're right. How do you put a value on that? At the same time you need to home it somewhere because they can't always be outdoor venues.

So my question [00:28:00] to you Michael is, the Glad Day Bookstore, is – I mean obviously it's an institution. It is known around the world. And we're very proud of it that it sits in Toronto. And I feel like that should be a Toronto landmark.

So therefore the City has the bragging rights of hosting and being home to the world's oldest queer bookstore, and yet when you moved from your original location on Yonge Street on the second floor OA store there, just north [00:28:30] of Wellesley, you could have – you could have at that point in time chosen any other location with cheaper rents. But instead you went over to the village one block over where the rents were probably significantly higher.

But you did for a reason. And what was that reason?

Michael E: Yeah, in fact, rents on Church are 20 percent, 30 percent higher than Yonge Street, right? Even just a few feet away. So. I mean we did that because – and we did look at other – we looked at other neighbourhoods. We did look at other [00:29:00] spaces. And at the end of the day it sort of came down to, you know, where are our people? You know? And when people are looking – like where people gather and where they're coming to. And we weren't sure if people would travel to a further location.

We also have seen that a lot of these, like, the future queer neighbourhoods, you know, Queer West, Ossington, Lesbianville, they've become temporary, in fact, right [00:29:30]? And in fact the Church and Wellesley Village for all the cries that it's going to die and go away, there's a concentrated population, it is known both locally and globally as the place to be. And so you know, it made the most sense to have, you know, this 50-year-old institution of our stores and our culture in the heart of the Queer Village rather than try to get people to


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come to us somewhere else so we could save a few thousand dollars on rent.

And there isn't really anywhere in Toronto that's magically cheap [00:30:00] right. So you have to also balance, like, well rent is $18,000 a month, but can I make that up because of the location, you know, to –

Kristyn: I hope there's been no regrets coming into the Village.

Michael E.: I mean we love the Village. We want to be in the Village. I think the thing that I have found frustrating I will say, though, is that we have tourists who plan their stopovers on their flights in Toronto, just to come to Glad Day, right? They'll sit down midday [00:30:30] spend some money, come back. And that's just one example. We have tourists coming in all the time just for Glad Day and yet you know, the Tourism Ontario, Tourism Toronto shows very little interest right? In helping us – in helping with support.

So there is this thing about when you're part of a marginalized group, so whether it’s Little Jamaica, Chinatown, or the Gaybourhood, sometimes it feels like it shouldn't be this hard to explain to people, not only the cultural but there's a real economic [00:31:00] value to our existence.

And we're fragile. I mean 50 years old, we could be closed in two weeks. You know, with one bad break in.

Kristyn: Michael, thank you. I think you raised some really good points. I want to just move to Lulu for a second. One thing I did not describe in Lulu's bio when I read it was the fact that Lulu is also a DJ. So on top of the many other talents, they are DJing, and they're creating dance space [00:31:30] and social congregation in coming together for the queer Asian community often times.

Lulu, have you hosted any dance parties, the popup dance parties in the Village.

Lulu: Yeah, so we've had multiple dance parties at Glad Day and I think what is so sad is yeah, like over the pandemic, you know, we've lost the Beaver and there's just, like, so many spaces in the West End that we've lost. And I think for me personally, [00:32:00] as like a queer person of colour, who isn't, like a cis, white, gay man, I don't feel like Church Street necessarily is, like, my space, except for Glad Day. Like Glad Day, and like that is where I feel like is my space, and that's kind of the only space on Church Street that I feel like is my space.

And so I think when we talk about the Village I think, like, it's a symbol of, like, a gay space [00:32:30] but it's not a gay space for, like, the BIPOC queers that you know, are not necessarily, like, cis, like white men kind of thing. And I'm really thankful that Glad Day still exists there.


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And like, as someone who puts on parties mainly for, you know, like a marginalized group that normally doesn't have space or parties for, like, queer Asians, I think it's [00:33:00] important to find spaces that we feel welcome in or safe in, and like, yes, we're able to go maybe to bars that are normally like straight bars, but then it's like, we don't necessarily know if, like, the bouncers there are trained, or if they'll be harassing people. And I think a lot of, like, the trans clientele have had issues.

And so it's just like finding actual safe spaces is really hard. And I think – I did a piece [00:33:30] with Xtra about the disappearing spaces for queer women, and part of it was, like, you know, gentrification, like there's no rent control for commercial spaces and half the time I'm like, how do people even pay their rent?

Like, so I know so many people, like, some friends of mine, they have, like, a studio space on Dundas by Ossington and I love that studio space and they're going to be losing it because there's a new lease coming and they can't afford the prices now, the increase. And so [00:34:00] I'm kind of, like, yeah, like maybe the physical space isn't that important but sort of like having safe spaces and what happens in those spaces is really important.

And what I find the most interesting is I'm working on a new documentary right now, that, like Yonge Street used to be they Gay Village back in, like, the '70s, and in the '80s it sort of shifted. But they used to have so many [00:34:30] more, like, physical, like, spaces for giant dance parties then we would ever dream of. I was, like, talking to some older queer elders and I was like, wait, what do you mean you had two-floor massive dance party spaces? I'm like, we don't have that.

And it's because you know, it's just too expensive to have any physical space anymore.

Kristyn: Lulu, thank you for sharing that. I think it is – I'm starting to feel a little bit of [00:35:00] a dinosaur effect, because as you describe your memory of Yonge Street I actually have been to those bars, and so you just sort of took me back to a particular time.

I want to ask you one more question, Lulu, and then I'm going to move over to Itah.

Lulu, you and I share some cultural lineage here. And so I love going to Chinatown, but you know, being my whole self, I mean it's just impossible now because I'm councillor a long time and people know who I am. But there was a time where I was [00:35:30] you know, not always able to be comfortable in my skin, being a queer, non-binary person. And as much as I love to be in spaces with other Chinese people, I didn't always get to be me, which is the queer side of Kristyn.


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And so you know, the Chinatown space, I believe, is another one of those storied – historical, cultural cluster in spaces in Toronto, and right across North America from what I can tell, there's also on the verge of is it [00:36:00] going to make it, is it not?

And so you know, have you found spaces in Chinatown to operate the popup dance space for? Can we go and break down and hold a queer Asian night in Chinatown Centre for example, in the mall?

Lulu: Yeah, I mean that would be amazing to get to do that. And I mean I think, like, what Tea Base was doing, was amazing. I mean like [00:36:30] I think they lost their space as well, pandemic, etcetera. But I think that there's so much intersectionality within the community and it would be amazing to see that all, like, merge together. And I think if people want to support something they should support Tea Base and they should support Friends of Chinatown, because they're made up of, like, younger, like, artists who are Asian and also some of them are queer and it's like fighting [00:37:00] to keep certain parts of Chinatown still a part of Chinatown.

And I mean obviously I know that Chinatown has moved from, like, multiple locations and you know, physically it is changing. But I'm like, with the physical change, like, are we still going to see affordable mom and pop shops there. And also I think another thing is, like, people have to remember to actually go support those spaces [00:37:30]. Like you know, like the film that I did about the redevelopment of Honest Ed's, people are really sad to see Honest Ed's go. But many people who I talked to I was like, when was the last time you actually went to Honest Ed's?

You can't just have a museum or say you miss something. You actually have to, like, stop shopping on, like, Amazon or stop going to the dollar store. Or stop going to, like, etcetera, like Walmart, etcetera, the Big Box stores and actually go support the local small businesses. Otherwise [00:38:00] we're going to lose them all.

I mean I would love to have a queer dance party in the Chinatown Centre. And I know, like, Tea Base was doing Mah-jong nights for all the sort of youth, plus all the random, all the, like, mall folks, like the seniors would go and play Mah-jong together and I think that intergenerational connection is just so special as well. And I feel like the City and everybody needs to support stuff like that.

Kristyn: And those Chinese [00:38:30] seniors knew they were playing Mah-jong with queer Asian kids, right? Like that was around the table.

Lulu: Yeah, I think so. [Laughing]. Yeah.

Kristyn: That is very cool. Thank you for sharing that. I think there's also an annual march called Pink Dot that walks through Chinatown to sort of


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highlight queer Asian culture and largely to deal with acceptance of family.

You know, you – Lulu you raised a really great point about Chinatown having moved around. And the very first Chinatown in [00:39:00] Toronto was actually where the – what is now known as New City Hall. Nathan Phillips Square. And I Michael's got a lot to say about this.

But within that first Chinatown was also very strong cultural roots for the Black community, which was sort of side by side here in what was then called St. John's Ward. All of that is gone now. You cannot tell where any of that – where the [00:39:30] people have gone. You can't tell where the businesses were. And I want to bring Michele and Itah into this conversation because it's so critically important in some ways that we try to identifiability the cultural markers. So therefore we know what are we protecting.

And Itah, I guess to you, as someone who has a distinguished career of promoting Black history, Black culture, African liberation. You [00:40:00] know your history. But one of the reasons why the next generation is also knowing this history is because of your bookstore and the type of work that you do, which goes beyond books, which also does a lot of promotion of culture in bringing people together to have those important conversations.

What would it take to keep obviously your location up and running and viable, but also to make sure that you do can [00:40:30] be transported in any space if you needed to go somewhere else, it doesn't die just because the brick and mortar changes.

Itah: First I want to say that it was really cool that you said right at the top that this is one step. Because there's so many things that we're struggling with and dealing in the world that you just feel inundated when you have to think you have to take on five thousand things.

I'm also very pleased that we're not thinking or talking about building back anything, but we're building forward [00:41:00]. And this is really, really cool.

It all starts with people. And we talked a little bit about policy at the top. In a number of the meetings that I've attended, I am really – I'm really convinced it's about people. Because you can change policy, but if you have policy makers whose thinking is not progressive, who is marking time, who is there to hold the gate, maintain a status quo [00:41:30]. It doesn't matter what policy you have.

I've sat in meetings where there are policies and suddenly it's – for the very first time we know that these things exist in government, in institutions. And you sit there and you ask yourself, as Black people in the city who seem to be aware, who are au fait? Who know things? How


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is this information not available in community? How do we know simple [00:42:00] things?

And that is not about the policy. That is about the people behind the policy. So, and in our dealings with government, in our dealings with major institutions, if you find one person who is progressive, who has a common interest, who [genuinely 00:42:20] believes and is committed to fight any kind of oppression or anti-racism or Black anti-racism, all [00:42:30] of that. Then you're good to go.

So I'm advocating that in institutions and government the faces and the people in those spaces must change. The thinking must change.

The other thing, how – in our world, and in our world of a Different Booklist we are in a wold of call and response. And again we go back to people. People got to make a call, and you've got to respond back to that [00:43:00].

I'm a believer, and this is Itah speaking now, that when it comes to heritage and culture, especially in our community, you can take our heritage and culture and put it any place at any time and it's going to rock. It is because of our history.

When people today talk about hubs, and they go off about hubs. And how – and when they're talking to you about cultural spaces and hubs in this city it is almost – you get the sense that they're [00:43:30] talking to you about something new. And you begin to think, but in the basement of a church we had 10 programs. The Home Service at 941 Bathurst Street. A dance happened. People came from employment opportunities. It became a hub.

You give us six centimeters and that is going to become a hub. What we are saying in this time is, we want to be permanent. We don't want to be popup. We don't want to be popup thing. When you say popup that sounds like a temporary. But we want the permanence [00:44:00] because we have demonstrated that wherever we have landed, we influenced the culture of the city, of the occasion.

When I ask people, and I told them I was coming onto this program, what is heritage and what is culture in this city? All right? So they look confused. Now that is frightening. They looked confused. So then you say – then they say to me, "What do you mean? Where do I see myself? All right, let me start with that [00:44:30]."

So they say Caribana. Number 1 answer every time. That was heritage and that was culture. So when the parade is over and the carnival season is over, then we don't see ourselves at all.

The next answer, top answer. Jane and Finch. Why is that? We see ourselves. We see language. We see colour. I don't think – I think


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everybody who when they talked about heritage of Black people in this city, they said the word colour.

And [00:45:00] here's a third fascinating thing about heritage. Churches became the third thing. So you think, OK, because Black people have a whole million churches. But no, that wasn't the answer. The answer is this. When we see cathedrals, when we see big buildings of stained glass and all those big fancy churches, we tell ourselves Black people build that. So we see in our heritage in terms of construction in the artistry that we bring.

So, [00:45:30] to answer your question, when I think even to of intellectual heritage, I'm think of Timbuktu and I'm thinking of a doctor of [Fua Coopa 00:45:38]. All at the same time. Yeah?

When I go to a meeting and people begin to talk to me like [land trust 00:45:45] like a stupid, and tell me crazy things like, "You know, we have to send you multiple documents to deconstruct that." And then when I go and look up land trust and see it come out of Black people experience, and that's part of heritage.

So [00:46:00] my response to you is this. Because of the historical experience that we have had as people, it has forced us to make much out of nothing. Much out of little.

But here's the thing now. We can't continue to say to young people, "You have to take a little and make a lot of things out of it," when they see the rest of the world taking their little and making a whole lot of it. And there's no [00:46:30] permanence in the city.

So, in terms of – and in the bookstore, let me speak to that. One of the – and Michael can probably attest to this – one of the most exciting things about COVID for us was this, that people showed the world the importance of books. But suddenly, all the time you're selling books that said, this is the Black experience, this is the African-Canadian – this is who we are, this is our narrative, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who validates you? No student is going to read that [00:47:00]. On and on and on.

But suddenly now the world is naked. Everybody on the same level playing field. You don't know if you're going to die in five minutes and I don't know if I going to die in five – so we level playing field now.

Then George Floyd pandemic [baps hit that 00:47:12]. So now everybody become in search of truth. How do I talk to Black people, how do I do this? How do I engage in whatever?

So for us it was a fascinating accelerant, interesting time, because now the world's attention came [00:47:30] on to Black people in our condition and people of African descent.


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And here's one last thing I'm going to say. For the longest time we push back about being Black people. We became African-Canadians, look at that. But then the government came into the conversation. And it is so long to say, African-Canadian funding. Get that. Right? But you can say Black funding faster.

So even in the economic language of the government we had to give up some of culture and heritage, having moved from a [00:48:00] colour to defining a heritage. But because of the language of government. Even the toughest of nationalist, we all revert back to being Black.

That is what I see.

And so when we talk about heritage, and when we – and on Bathurst Street and when the development was coming and all of that. Suddenly we panic. Because everybody talking heritage and all you could see was a building and you're not even part of that building. No ownership there. As [00:48:30] a community of African-Canadians we owned more things downtown and owned more things in the city way back in the day than we do now.

And I'm always fascinated that that most famous intersection in this country, which is Jane and Finch, it's not Yonge and Bloor, it's Jane and Finch. It is an intersection that is defined by the presence of Black people.

So here's the thing now. If only given the opportunity to demonstrate all the things that we can do, if only given that [00:49:00] opportunity, then different lens and a narrative would be on Jane and Finch. And the great things that come out of that community.

So that is where I sit with this conversation in that we've proven and we have demonstrated, what we are saying now in Canada is that the roots that we have here must definitely be deeper than what they are now.

Kristyn: Wow. I want to give you a [00:49:30] huge applause. I mean largely because I think this is the kind of conversation we were hoping for and I can assure you this is not the conversation that's not taking place in any of the standing committees at City Hall. These are not the words that are being used at City Council, and this is exactly why we wanted to have this type of discussion.

Michele, I'm going to turn to you for a moment because I think, you know, Itah just – she so brilliantly, I think, spoke [00:50:00] about the power of people, and making a lot out of a little. And that's not always by choice, but it's out of necessity and resistance. And she talked about telling the story from the people's point of view.

I think that from where you sit and given your experiences as the only Indigenous person on our panel, the rest of us are settlers, you know, it is


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[00:50:30] often times, I think, challenging when we here in the City of Toronto, and I'm just going to speak quite freely when we talk about Indigenous place-making, and I kind of struggle with this a little bit because it often times comes down to what I believe are organized symbols, but the rest of us consume it as [00:51:00] art and culture, but there's so much more than that. And the story sometimes doesn't get deeper in terms of how it translates.

Can you just respond to what Itah said and maybe touch a little bit on what now is quite prevalent in Toronto, and that's Indigenous place-making?

You have to unmute. [00:51:30]. [pause]

Michele: OK, that was a bit of a task.

Itah, wow, I feel so humbled to speak after those powerful words. That was – I got goose bumps. And – I need a minute, but [laughing] I won't take it.

Yeah, in terms of place-making [00:52:00] it's – I mean I know there's a City initiative that the Indigenous Affairs Office is undertaking right now in Indigenous place-making within the city. It's involving a lot of community engagement.

One of the issues is there seems to be the same folks that get their doors knocked on to be engaged and the [00:52:30] Indigenous Affairs Office is really trying to involve a much wider group, more grassroots people, and not the same players all the time.

It's – it is a great initiative I think, I believe. For the longest time we didn't have any visual representation as Indigenous people within the city. I mean you go into Vancouver airport and you see Bill Reid [00:53:00] everywhere. And he's, like, the most famous Haida artist and his carvings are everywhere. They sell for millions of dollars. And he is very respectfully displayed and Indigenous culture is very respectfully displayed all throughout the Vancouver airport.

You don't see any of that in Toronto. And most people don't even know that Toronto [00:53:30] is really Indigenous territory until the land acknowledgement started becoming a thing that when people gather that is done as common practice now.

So, it's – I don't want to say that it's tokenism because I think there are enough of us in the Indigenous community that are committed to not [00:54:00] letting it be that. But you are correct, Kristyn, in that the stories behind the art are so in-depth. There are so many grandfather teachings that are in all aspects of those art pieces. And I know for example Philip Cote's art, he's done – he's been commissioned by the City


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to do a number of pieces, and his [00:54:30] artwork could have a hundred stories in it.

And it's difficult to – where do you put those stories in relation to where that art lives? How do you tell those stories? You know, most people will walk by and say, "Wow, that's really beautiful," but have no idea that the turtle represents Turtle Island and it represents our creation story.

So that's where [00:55:00] the culture comes in. That's where our culture comes in, in expressing those stories in that art.

And it's interesting, we are having this conversation around heritage and culture – and again I want to be clear that I'm not speaking for all Indigenous people. I'm giving my own thoughts and opinions here – but, I don't believe that heritage is really part of [00:55:30] our culture, necessarily. Tradition is. Our traditions, our culture, our cultural practices, our traditional ceremonies. And heritage to us speaks about where we come from. You know, who our parents are, where our community is.

But culture, that is a massive, massive word that, as Indigenous people we embrace [00:56:00], we fought to keep. You know, our elders hid for many years, many, many years teaching those ceremonies underground, so to speak, and in private, so that part of our culture wouldn't get lost.

And – so those knowledge keepers, those are our traditions, those are – and our cultural [00:56:30] cornerstones. And I think that – I will say as an Indigenous person, I can recognize tokenism a mile away. And I honestly feel that the City of Toronto – and I've only been there a short time, I've only been there since September. I've never worked for the City before, I've worked [00:57:00] within the Indigenous community and in the not-for-profit sector as well as the corporate sector. And my first commitment has always been in – regardless of where I've been positioned is my first commitment is to my community.

Be you know, any corporation can dip their toe in the pond and take it out whenever they want. But I live here. I've worked here. I've committed to the community here and across [00:57:30] the country and I've earned the respect of my community.

So, first and foremost, that's the first line in the sand that I draw anywhere I go to work or to share what I know is that my first and foremost commitment is to community.

That's why this project, the Indigenous Centre for Innovation and Entrepreneurship is so important to me and I'm so passionate about it, because it [00:58:00] is truly for community.

And I feel that the City is being pretty upfront and honest around wanting to make sure that the Centre is Indigenous led. That it provides the


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programs and services to help Indigenous entrepreneurs become economically self-sufficient. And what we want to create is [00:58:30] – I'll think of the term when it comes back to me because it was brilliant. Chief Darcy Bear from Saskatchewan, Saskatoon area, he coined the phrase, "hereditary – ' oh, anyway, I don't want to hold up the conversation. I'll think of it.

But, intergenerational prosperity, that's what it was. And as Indigenous people we've never really had that [00:59:00]. And so doing a lot with a little, what Itah was saying, is very familiar territory within the Indigenous community, when it comes down to feeding your family, when it comes down to what you put out into the community. And you know, having a conversation around drinking water in First Nation communities. Like that don't be [00:59:30] a political position. That should be an inherent right as a human being.

So – and I'm being a little bit all over the map here – but the – I do feel the City has been genuine in some of these initiatives. In – and I would definitely call it out if I felt that it wasn't. I think you know that by now, Kristyn, about me, even though we [01:00:00] don't know each other for a very long time yet.

So, yeah, I – the package piece is really important because it does show that we are here and we've been here. And you know, a lot of our – the historical buildings, like the Native Canadian Centre of Toronto, that's an icon in the city.

A lot of our other place-making cultural places are going to be on [01:00:30] the land. And you know, there has been some really good engagement with Indigenous folks around the waterfront and how that place-making is going to be very predominantly Indigenous. There's a good group of people that are working on that. Also the George Street Revitalization Project is going to going to have a very strong Indigenous lens to it.

So those are all things that I – as a Torontonian and as an [01:01:01] Indigenous person and an anishinaabekwe I'm really proud about. And it's all the years I've been in Toronto, well over 30 years, I've never seen it like this.

So I'll close off my comment on a very positive note saying that it's something that I'm very glad to see happening, and there's some really, really good people that are making sure that it is happening. So miigwech.

Kristyn: Thank you Michele. And thank you for sharing your honest self [01:01:30] because I recognized as you were speaking that there's a bit of a dynamic. Kristyn is the councillor, Michele is a Toronto staffer. I still definitely value the fact that you spoke from the heart and the fact that you were willing to tell it as it is.


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Before I let you go Michele, I want to ask you one more question. I'm going to move it around very shortly. And my question is, the First Nations, Metis, Inuit people you know, the Indigenous community, clearly Canada's first people. The [01:02:00] original inhabitants of this land. Thousands of years this history goes back.

We have Chinatowns and Little Italies and Little Indias and Little Jamaicas and you know, little cultural clusters, and gay villages, but we don't have an Indigenous district or an Indigenous village. And especially not off reserve.

So is there a desire from – and I know [01:02:30] you're speaking only for yourself and let me know if you cannot answer this question because I'm OK with that too. But is it important to have that cultural space, streets and neighbourhoods carved up and say, "This is where Indigenous people come to do business, to exchange culture, to socialize, to interact"?

Michele: In a word, yes. That is important to the community. And I sat on the board [01:03:00] of the Native Canadian Centre for nine years or so, and for sitting president. And we had conversations at the board of directors' level very frequently around creating an Indigenous space within Toronto. And if we did, where would that be?

We looked at the Native Canadian Centre, buying a new building [01:03:30] perhaps partnering with Anishiaabe Health to buy a greater building so we could have Indigenous space to have sweat lodge ceremonies, to have sunrise ceremonies, to have that physical space within n the city. And you know, where folks could live if they wanted to. And that was important to a lot of people.

Because we are pretty scattered. There's about 70,000 plus Indigenous people in the City of [01:04:00] Toronto. And used to hear people say all the time, "Oh, there's that many? I hardly see any of you around when I'm in Toronto." [Laughing]. So – or the other one I love is, "Really, you don't look Indigenous." Anyway, that's for a whole 'nother conversations.

But the space. So I'm also very glad to see that Anishiaabe Health Foundation is building a new building [01:04:30] I think it's around where the Athlete's Village for the Pan-Am games were in that area of the city. And it is going to be a massive undertaking. There's going to be housing. There's going to be office space.

So this is what's going to be probably the closest thing to an Indigenous community hub that we've ever seen in Toronto for Indigenous folks. And so [01:05:00] I'm really looking forward to that.

And especially because it's going to be – it's going to be new and it's going to be Indigenous-driven. There's going to be culture seeping out the seams of the place. And it will be a great gathering place, I think, for us


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as Indigenous people. And for non-native people to come as well and you know, and learn about who we are, learn about all of our great accomplishments and [01:05:30] yeah, and just contribute to the greater understanding and Truth and Reconciliation at its finest.

Kristyn: Michele, thank you. And thanks for sharing with us that particular project. I think it's going to be a very exciting one. And it's hard to image that, you know, 2021 it's the first Indigenous hub. Just got to think about this. It's 2021, it's the very first large sizeable Indigenous hub in the city. Remarkable.

I [01:06:00] want to bring Abigail and Michael McClelland back into this conversation.

Abigail, in many of – in the work that you do, often times, you have a strong background in social housing and community affordable housing spaces, and it's not often times, I think from what I can tell, I don't see residents always organized coming to City Hall. And sometimes that's the dynamic that needs to take place [01:06:30] before you can push policy.

So just switching gears a little bit. Residents' associations, which are usually the power brokers in some ways at City Hall, they tend to be older, property owners, white, and we always hear from them. Every meeting there's somebody representing a residents association.

How do we ensure that people who don't own property, who are not affluent, who are not white have a way of communicating [01:07:00] to government decision makers, and in your work, I know you've seen that happen in TCHC buildings and campuses. What was the special sauce there if there is such a thing?

Abigail: Wow, yeah. No that's a great comment. I think it's really been around kind of engagement as it's been called at TCHC. Or just having the space for participatory processes. And I would say as somebody who, you know, formerly worked there and was fairly engaged [01:07:30] in that part of the organization, first, and then moved over – she did operations and then development side. Like, I'm quite aware of both the opportunity there as well as the tensions.

And so, it wasn't perfect. But I think when, as somebody who came to Toronto and as I looked to see around, like, what else was happening with communities that were generally in social housing that were poor that were mostly racialized, what were the spaces where they could actually convene, talk about needs, and also bring those [01:08:00] forward in different various ways.

I think that was one of the only more organized spaces I saw outside of more cultural institutions. So it's really bringing people across from different ethno-racial groups, the commonality being that they lived in social housing.


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And I think it did provide an important space. The challenge has been that it hasn't always been a space that's valued, I think. And so there's always been this tension around how important is it to actually have a system and to support that in a way that is [01:08:30] – to provide whatever the financial resources would be necessary. The opportunities for engagement. I guess if I pause, the – when you – when people are engaged and they have information and access to information and to talk with those in power, quote unquote, that does hold – that actually puts people's feet to the fire. And I think that's always been the [01:09:00] tension with these processes, particularly at TCHC too is that when we create these spaces for engagement and allow that to happen, really it means that we actually have to – we have to really, really think about where – how will we respond? So it's not just tokenized.

And – that's [where I saw 01:09:19] Michael making a point there, so I just wanted to – yeah, to pause and say I think there's a tremendous opportunity and it's unique in the city, but I don't know if we [01:09:30] often tap into that. And it's not often as well-resourced or that space – I guess valued and respected as it should be in the city.

Kristyn: Thank you. And Michael, you want to respond to Abigail's comments? Or add –

Michael E: Yeah, I mean I love what Abigail said. I just wanted to also have us kind of, like, we push back on this notion around residents. Because I think that – like the Queer Village, the Church and Wellesley neighbourhood, we have a lot [01:10:00] of people coming from Scarborough and Etobicoke. We have a lot of people coming to our space who can't afford the rents in the neighbourhood, right? Or people who are closeted all over the city.

So I just wanted to think it's not – obviously like I live near Glad Day. Like, I'm a resident, I care deeply about what happens here. But I also think that you might have residents that aren't engaged in their neighbourhoods and you would have people living where they can afford to live [01:10:30] that are highly engaged in the neighbourhoods where they feel safe and seen.

That's all I have.

Kristyn: Michael, good point. I can also see Glad Day from my window. Can see Church Street right out of the glass.

I want to bring Michael McClelland into this conversation now. And I want to just specifically ask you because you work in this world where there are prescriptive legislation and regulations that you have to study, you have to [01:11:00] embody. Then you have to provide advice to your clients. And I know that you often times have – I have seen you push your clients in doing better. Doing good on behalf of the project but also by way of the community.


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Are there ways that you can see – and I'm just going to focus on Little Jamaica and probably Kensington Market and I think the Village right now [01:11:30]. Actually I'll strip out Kensington Market.

The tool of the Heritage Conservation District, it has been discussed as a way of preserving culture. And preserving – actually preserving heritage, the built form, and less so about culture. If there is no tool that actually really helps us preserve culture, is it literally the HCD, the Heritage Conservation District that we have that we're reliant on? And if you have heritage [01:12:00] built form – or you have built form that doesn't qualify under the Heritage Conservation's sort of criteria, what are we left with? What are those additional tools?

Michael M: That's really a – it's a really problematic thing. We're behind the 8-ball because Little Jamaica's a very interesting case where – I had discussions with Economic Development and said, "What you need to do if you're trying to retain culture, you need to look [01:12:30] at it from an economic basis." And heritage districts don't look at economics at all.

And so for example Glad Day books, oldest bookstore in – oldest gay and lesbian bookstore in the world should be an economic marker for the City of Toronto that wants to have itself known as the City of Diversity. So it should be a no-brainer that the City of Toronto should encourage the continued occupation the continued use of Glad Day [01:13:00] bookstore.

It's not the building it's in, because it's moved from different places, but it's actually the economic running of a business.

So, I think incentives have to be given to businesses that in other cities like Seattle and San Francisco and Lisbon, Portugal, and Paris, France, they're called "legacy stores" and they're given incentives to keep them running. And I think that's one of the things you could do.

It's interesting, Heritage Conservation District are [01:13:30] deeply misunderstood in the City of Toronto. And I think it was interesting what happened with Little Jamaica where initially they were going to say, we're going to do an economic district study and we're going to figure out how to support these businesses. And the community said, no, no, we want to be a Heritage Conservation District because Heritage Conservation Districts have – there's a certain cred that goes with them, a certain, like, you don't respect our neighbourhood because we're a Black neighbourhood, is that why we're not a Heritage District, was the piece that got put out

And I think it was very [01:14:00] unfortunate because they can protect the Little Jamaica but there's nothing in there that protects the economic value of those properties or keeps them running or keeps them Black or keeps any of that happening.


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And so I think we've got to develop a greater sense of literacy about how a city's run and how policies work, and heritage, maybe we need to dump heritage and focus more on culture.

Heritage has a sense [01:14:30] of – heritage is not like history, heritage is something you personally own. It's your heritage – it's not your heritage, it's my heritage. And I think we need to go away from that and think more about history and the conservation of history generally. And we need to think about culture in a broader, broader way.

Because if you look at the City of Toronto it has no mechanism to protect culture.

And what the arts community which has been interesting, is they've gone out repeatedly [01:15:00] and sort of said there's an economic benefit to the City of Toronto to have us around. And so – I know studies about how important the Opera House is and all these things. We need to show the gay and lesbian bookstore and the gay and lesbian archives are significant to the City of Toronto and that they're economically a part that should be supported, like any other infrastructure in the city.

So I don't know if that answers your question, but it's [01:15:30] –

Kristyn: Michael, you gave me more than I can handle because you're a heritage architect who just said, "Dump heritage." So my head just popped off, if you could see it. Just blowing right off. You know, and this thing is being recorded so I think – I love the fact that – seriously that was just really pushing the boundaries in so many different ways.

And this is where we need to go. I think that the City of Toronto has reached this [01:16:00] crossroad where we are going to be a shadow of ourselves where we don't necessarily recognize our neighbourhoods, our social-cultural spaces if we don't dramatically intervene now.

And so we have been doing an environmental scan in my office. We've literally been trying to figure out who in the world has figured this out because we know we haven't figure it out in the City and we were trying to discover what are the tools out there.

So we figured out that the City of London, just by way of example, [01:16:30] has a policy around building LGBT venue charters. And there's five very basic things that they have to do. Fly a rainbow flag on their door. They have to commit to LGBT programming. They have to have staff that are LGBT oriented, and that gives them the status.

What was unclear to me when I read that along with other work that was happening in San Francisco and New York is that they are creating these [01:17:00] gay landmarks, is that it doesn't come with any real financial benefit. And it doesn't come with, I think, any real protections. It's just a declaration.


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So, in a city like Toronto where it feels like the developers rule, we probably need more than a simple declaration. And so in our last few minutes, and I want to make sure that everybody has a chance to speak here, if there was [01:17:30] one major policy shift, there was one major thing that could happen, either from the community side or from the government side, in order for us to protect and promote culture as we know it – let's just put heritage aside for a minute – what might that one thing be?

Who wants to go first? I'm going to pick on someone. Have a moment to think about it because I recognize this is big and we're not going to be able to fix it all here.

Michael, [01:18:00] I see your hand. Go ahead. You want to go Michael McClelland?

Michael M: Oh I was going to say Itah wanted to say something. But I would say one thing is I think we need a culture plan for the City of Toronto that effectively deals with these issues. We've got a bit of a culture plan, but it's not as inclusive, it's not bringing up the diversity of the cultures that exist in the City of Toronto.

And it doesn’t identify landmarks like [01:18:30] the ones we've just been talking about, as significant landmarks that are a requirement of the City to maintain its status as a diverse city.

Kristyn: And Itah, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you put something into the chat. So please go ahead and share your thoughts.

Itah: No, I'm going to go real fast because I'm still conscious of the time and other people to speak. But it's also around the language. Language is so significant. I often wondered who ever named Jamaica "Little Jamaica". There's nothing absolutely [01:19:00] little about Jamaica. A country with a bobsled team, and no snow, there's absolutely nothing.

It's even within the definition of that.

And also too, when we are going to the city, again language, are we going to lobby? Are we lobbyists? Are we going to protest? Are we invited to a meeting to put our agenda on the table? Or what is the City's agenda that we can hear that and then we can respond to.

So language is really important on how you approach communities to be engaged.

And finally I want to say this is that when we [01:19:30] are giving examples of things that happen around the world, I'm really conscious that all the examples we take from developing world, or what I call the cousins. So we go to our cousins, we go to Australia, we go to New Zealand. I want to know what is Barbados thinking about affordable


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housing? I want to know what's Trinidad doing? I want to know some other area in the world that looks like me and I want to go and find their best practice so I can incorporate it here. Because they have ideas.

And so when we come into these places as immigrants and settlers and [01:20:00] all of that, we can see ourselves reflected from something that we – that have been influenced from the places and the spaces that we came.

At Bathurst and Bloor, and I'm just going to say this real fast, in Bathurst and Bloor, in that particular neighbourhood, we're really excited to be there. We're excited to be there as a bookstore, we're excited to be there at this cultural centre going forward. Because here's the thing. If we can look at the Underground up to this current day and see the flavour, the influence, the smell, the taste [01:20:30] the feel of people of African descent, all we are saying again, we want to plant those roots a little deeper.

And I'm really and truly that it is the Lulus, it is the Abigails, that generation of people. It is the Alex Cohens that work with architects. That grouping of young people who are approaching the world with a different thinking.

Last sentence. Young people have said, "We've gone out in the streets because we don't want to be part of the world that we are in [01:21:00] because the big lie has been exposed." So we are excited that there is a consciousness, a new consciousness now that is in the air.

So I think that having even this panel together, and I like the fact that you said one step. Not 20 steps. We're solving everybody's problem. One step forward, I believe that that's a good thing. But we've got to check the language when we're dealing with communities because so many different words mean so many [01:21:30] different things.

Kristyn: Thank you, Itah. Thank you.

It's always hard to follow Itah, but who's brave enough to try. Go ahead Michael Erickson.

Michael E: I love Itah so much. So your question was, you know, what's been concrete. So here's a couple of thoughts. First of all this is obviously not the first conversation I've had about how do we protect queer spaces, Glad Day [01:22:00] specifically? One thing that I'm very – always afraid of is like I feel like there's often times this insinuations promise that like, there will be something coming soon, right? Just two more years of consultations. One more year of planning. If you're in the right place at the right time.

So like, I have a lot of hope. I'm not sure I have a lot of faith. And so this is something that – and I – and I think [01:22:30] – we've seen decisions


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where you know, Ian and I have both seen decisions where it's like, why did no one think of us? Like, why weren't we at this table? It's like, we're hustling doing all these kind of things, and when there's a moment, you know, sometimes it's other groups or other organizations that get brought in, get the money and that kind of thing. We've seen this at all levels of government.

So something to think about right now is this pandemic has been [01:23:00] brutalizing for us. And maybe it is an opportunity to try a pilot project. Right? Maybe it's an opportunity for something that is now. That is immediate. Because I'm going to tell you right now that when those – I am not convinced that those government subsidies are going to end for us when or revenue re-stabilizes. There's going to be a period of time where we're not at full capacity revenue-wise, and we don't have the kind of financial support we had [01:23:30].

So what if Toronto said, "Hey, you know what? We have funding for 100 legacy businesses," or cultural venues or whatever, right? "We've got 100. A hundred places that we don't want to see close" in, you know, six months or eight months after the pandemic and maybe there's a grant or there's like, oh man, if I got six months of my property taxes back, that would be great. You know?

And so there's something done because I [01:24:00] you know, part of my other concern is that we've held out – we've kept our entire staff employed. Right? Like we – other places have let people go or they've cut their hours or whatever. We've been working with the subsidies. We've been trying to keep our folks financially stable during this whole pandemic.

And now there's open venues and spaces and rents are going to be lower. And so somebody can pop up to a place across the street and compete with us who didn't [01:24:30] actually – who – while we sort of have stuck it through for 51 years. You know?

And so I am a little bit worried about inequality as we're coming out of the pandemic. So maybe the City could look at you know, a test run of this kind of support rather than us waiting eight more years from concept to policy to funding.

Kristyn: Great suggestion. Clearly there is no time. That runway is already gone for some. How [01:25:00] do we keep the rest of them viable?

Michele, Lulu and I think Abigail, final thoughts. [Pause]. Abigail, go ahead.

Abigail: OK, thanks. You know I think with – to the last question, it's always hard when sometimes you're speaking and I was just going back to Itah's point just really wanted to acknowledge that around using language and also [01:25:30] just the idea of – as I said, it's not like the solution and it's not


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necessarily the best process but it is a process that's out there that's fairly strong which is a kind of engagement system.

What I liked about it is the broadness of how it is able to engage. And so if we think the – the question that I have is how can we engage people more broadly in the city. Again going back to what I'm talking about that's sort of the grassroots, there is one of the things that I learned about fairly early [01:26:00] on in my career, was around participatory budgeting, it comes out of mostly South America and it's really saying, "This is an opportunity to take funds and as neighbours as individuals who are living in different spaces in the city what do you want to do with it?"

I've actually ironically participated in that, certainly at TCHC because they ran that quite in a robust way for a while. But also in Hamilton they had done that several years ago. And it was really, really fascinating to [01:26:30] actually participate in that at a neighbourhood level outside of being in an institution. And what I like about it is that it's saying, "Here are some funds." They are typically government funds to some extent. That we're saying, "Decide what you want to do with it."

And so if we think about this idea of roots and how we haven't been able to acknowledge history, I would be curious to see how can we use something like that to broadly engage? Because [01:27:00] that could be individuals from any neighbourhood. Particularly individuals who are younger too, who could come together and make decisions around how do you – what are those markers you want to talk historically that are culturally significant in different parts of the city and how do we actually decide on how to use some funds to highlight those spaces or to celebrate those spaces.

And so that's one which I know the City has some level of familiarity with it. But it would be interesting to try that [01:27:30] as a pilot more broadly across the city to really put the hands of this budgeting in the hands of people.

Kristyn: Thank you Abigail. Thank you so much for those comments.

Coming to the end. Wrapping up for those who are going to help us send off. Michele and Lulu, who would like to finish off?

You can also say pass. Also let you off the hook.

Lulu: I [01:28:00] just want to say that I'm glad that this is a conversation that we're all having because I feel like a lot of times it just feels like it's this top level thing where it's like if you're not in urban planning you don't really hear about the development until you see, like, the sign go up or you see it in the news. And then it's like we're always having these, like I think this, like, echo chamber of everything's expensive and there's no place to live and all the things we love [01:28:30] it's all disappearing.


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But then as someone who's not involved in, like, the policy or in the planning sense, it just feels like something where it's like I think a lot of people just don't know how to get involved, or what they can actually do. And I've been to planning meetings and I've been to the consultation meetings and it doesn't feel like – inviting or easy to understand the language. And it doesn't feel like something where it's just [01:29:00] like, you know, if we're going to give feedback that's actually going to happen.

And so I think for me personally I would love to see all levels of government work together because you know, I think from just my personal experiences it feels like this is all a very, like, huge, like, political thing and I'd love to see developers work directly with the immediate community and create spaces, like, you know, A Different Booklist [01:29:29] getting to move back into the community and having the City buy that space and actually give it back to the community.

It's like, I would love to see every development have a space that is dedicated for the community that the community doesn't have to worry about, like, fighting for that physical space kind of thing.

And I think I'd love to just see more – the consultations be more accessible for, like, different people and like, having it at times when [01:30:00] maybe other people who would want to go, like, are working kind of thing. And – yeah, and I love the city and I feel like it was one of the only places I can live in and feel comfortable and happy about with, like, the culture and just like the queer spaces. And like I know there are a lot of other places that are way more affordable to live, but would I want to live there and not have all of these, like, amazing cultural things and feel safe [01:30:30] in my city? No.

So I'm like, yeah, I would love to see somehow, like, the City be able to get spaces and to be able to give these spaces to the community, but I understand there's a lot of barriers behind that. And I understand that development is a business in itself. But yeah, like how do we get all levels of government to work together to help out and –

And yeah, [01:31:00] what about rent control, commercial rent control and also, like, general residential rent control? Where is that?

Kristyn: Lulu thank you. And I notice that you made that plug for commercial rent control twice. So noted.

Michele. Final thoughts.

Michele: So I guess from an Indigenous perspective [01:31:30] the consultation is huge. You know, it's – the whole idea is nothing about us without us. And historically the City has made decisions for the Indigenous community with little to no consultation. And having a conversation with one


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organization or with the Indigenous Affairs Office isn't consultation and engagement.

And [01:32:00] the true form of engagement – and we're not going to – the City's not always going to hear what it wants to hear. And it's – so for me I'm torn in two places. So, I work for the City, I'm also an Indigenous community member. So there's a bit of a blurry [01:32:30] line where I want to be in the position to do good work for the community in the position that I'm in.

And I know that there are going to be situations where I'm going to be involved in community engagement where the community's going to say, "No, no, we don't support that." And I think that the City needs to be a little bit more limber in [01:33:00] how we respond, how they respond to those types of situations. And you know, come to the table under true engagement. True discussion. And listen.

I think listening is the biggest thing. One of the very early teachings that I got from one of my elders is there's a reason why the Creator gave you two ears and one mouth. We [01:33:30] need to listen more than we need to talk, sometimes.

Kristyn: Thank you, Michele. Thank you to all of you.

What a remarkable conversation we've just had. So many brilliant ideas. And I think so much of it is new. Either it's been said I whispers or perhaps in smaller spaces, but I think, you know, the job that we now have is to take what was said, make sure the conversation continues [01:34:00].

I want to say thank you to Lulu, Abigail, Michael, Michael, Michele, Itah and all of you who are here. I hope I haven't forgotten anybody but I'm just quite – I feel privileged to be quite honest, I feel quite privileged to be able to hear your stories in such a direct way and for you to share those experiences.

I want to thank our AI Media who was providing our live captioning to Jessica and [01:34:30] Tiffany and for all of you who showed up virtually, and all of you who will be actually watching this.

There will be a transcription of tonight. We want to keep this going. The objective was not just to entertain ourselves, to have a conversation, but we want to turn this work, these gifts that you’ve given us, your stories, into ways that we can continue sharing. But also to continue fleshing out these ideas.

Tonight's panel was live stream on Twitter, on YouTube, [01:35:00] on Facebook. A recording, as I mentioned, is going to be posted onto our website and of course the transcription of our conversation.


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Those is as I – as stated the beginning of a conversation on how do we promote and protect our cultural spaces and heritage spaces in the city. I encourage all of you to stay in touch with us. Please stay tuned to things that are happening to Ward 13, but also just stay involved with your city. If there was one thing that I can take away from [01:35:30] what was discussed tonight is that there needs to be a call and a response. And it's actually people power that is going to help us propel these conversations forward to actual meaningful actions, and we want that to happen.

And finally, you know, we do have some social media channels, please follow us at Kristynwongtan, visit us on Facebook because it really ends up being the connecting tissue on how do we ensure that the conversations keep flowing. But not to [01:36:00] always talk to the effect of having something to say, but to lead to good outcomes.

And tonight I'm really energized. I heard from you, you were energized and sharing your vision on how we can make that happen.

Do thank you very much everyone. Thank you for your gifts, thank you for your stories and please take care and we will see you on the other side very soon.

[End of recorded material 01:36:25]

Documents

It Takes a Village Panel May 27 , 2021