Anne Romaine IntervieGi nt lvanho~ Donaldson

Anne P.omnine : This is au interview with lvanhoe Donalds·on, Har<:b 23, 1967

IO: , • .• •.. Yeah

AR : •••• •••• 'tau said .. .. .. . .

10: Yeah .

AR : llow long h.ave you been working ~;ith ••.• • ( ~NCC? )

ID : Since its inception--1960

AR : Wht; re a re you froo1 (!-rea: ifoni}--?

ID : In New 'tork , Net~· "tork

AR : llow many?

ID : In the State?

hll : Uh-huh .

1:0: Well nearly (6 weks) .

,AR : Row old are you?

1:0: Ho"'' old am I now? 26 .

Aft ; IJh • when you we-re

or by

10 : I ' d better trake a correction . I 'nc 2!>. I foq;et n·y ~ge son:etimes .

AR : When you wc r e •.• what counties di~ you work in •• when you ~~redo~~ there,

t1 when you were in ~issippi wi t h llob~l<ilkinsonfr

IO : Yeah .. ......... .. in l-'i1 64.

AI\ : .. ... .. . . • . . .... .

IO: 'te.,b T "?~ "orldng Ear :>NCI> then, now the •••• • (crisis?) I w-ent t c Mfs3issi.ppi

i n 1!163 to wo r'k full - t.i.ll'e .Ancl "orked t;h1!.r~ t.hrou~h 'os and 1 went to "'ork on

J u lian eond ' s caoraign .

J\R : \./hare in Mississippi di.d you work no.s t?

'

10: 17ell , basically the d1!lt:a . l wo~ked alJ over the state . In October ,

I think, of '63 , or son•ethilog like that, "e had a rruedom O.)y in

Hattiesburg, tbe first Freedom Day in the 'outh , • .• • in tississipri ,

Votec Registration type build-up campaign . 1{orked down in 1Iat tiesbu rt,

during t:hat pt~riod, and uh, worked down in NcComl> for a whi.le.

AR: Was that in the fall of '637

ID: Yeah.

ID: The ~arch election , yes that is correct . And , at that time in the,

let 's sec, fall of 163 was when fu~CC decided to s0t up a state-wide operation.

Previous to that they had a summer state-wide operation (defined) by

by congress i onal districts . At 1:hat time the re we r e Eive : the delta's one -­

the second congress ional district , the east side of the state~ north of

Neridian being the first con&ress i onal district, Mer i diRn and Canton

being t he fourth, Jackson bein& th~ third and Hatt iesoore being the

fifth . And, t he fall of '63, that was firmed up . Pe.ople wen t into state­

~ide a ction on Voter Registration . An then (~roke) up the campaign fo r

t he Aaron Henr y giAbe rn"'torial r ace 1 done as a para political sit uation . Call

it a mo ck election . \1}~n he ran on o Freedom Ba llot ticket for

governor, ~~ then started an inte nsifLed state-wide operation with oases in

Greenville, bases in Cr.aen\..•ood) Lases in Colun1bus , base in Wes t Point ,

base in Jack-son, base in Hat t i esbure;., base do"n in &ilo""i and ~;cComb

and in ~teridian and Canton, and all over t he. entire state.. Pl ac.es 1 jus t

narr.ed were the bases in the urban areas , but ther~ we<e also base s established

in rural area s , such tiS I ss:.quena County, such a.s llo lTres County, althc.u:.J· one

might debate whet her ••• tTUe or small little town. 3orr.e projects are

known by the ci ty n~e , like Gree nwood, •nd ~orne pr o jects ar e know by che

Co\lnty nan:e , like llolr••es Coun ty beenusc lloh cs has a nu• ber of ur ban

AR:

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c:iLies in the county and was a COI1tlctc county O}Cration , "hile ... \ ... ~.

where G r;.,enwuod i~ , th~ activhy was concentrated ba3ically in GNcn.,ood or

in IUa Bena where soc•e activity had taken vtacc at t11e vocad.ono l coller,e ,

or what was then th~ vocational collc~e and u~ , that ~ot the CQrpaign around

the Aaron Henry election that sort of set up a very tight ~n•v alate-wide

op.Hation , ..,ith a t.reat deal of activity, or course, coming out of Cahoma County

where 1 was based in Clarksdale , and a lot of ac:Ll.vity cauli.r.l: oul of Jackson

which wa~ set up as the stMe-wide oirice . Thot was sort of II COII'I'l ete cycle

because previuus to that, Greenville was pretty tuc:h th~ state wide office

of the activity l.ecau:;e ~-ob ~oses was ba• d then: , and t.h<.n bas.:d in

Gr eenwood for a whlle and of course based lat"r there, he was in ~-c~.oomb

''hich was i n 1961, lh~ o((ice coverinf, thu -;outh of t he state was in Jackson ,

the Oi rect Action l'rojcct which wa~ C"un b11:~lcally by Olane Nash , !level a nd

peopl e of the 1 ike .

10 : lo'ell , lt •nght .o have been , but COI'O was not el<istent at th:u:. point and

people lil:e Oiane and SNCC staff ...... most o! the people who worked in

~lississi1>pi wo t·ked in SNCC 1Jith the exceplion of Tom . .... .. and llav~ Oenis

WhO worked for CORD. COn~ basically had SOII'C form of base in Jackson because

of the Freedon Rides and then throu&h ~3 , ou , 65 , they developed ~~at we called

a creati~~ influenc~ in the 4th congressional district, or what wAs the bth

con~ressional district before re - apportiorO"ent, in the ~·eridlAn..Canton are:. , that

whole area w~en Ne~hoba county was op~rAti~~ unrler SNCC , maintained a SNCC

staff operation in Ne•hot>a, pArticularly art~r the kill in6 of Coodll'an , Chancy,

Schwern2r .

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AR: ••••• • •• (m~stly ~CC pe.ople)up until '64?

10 : No, SNCC, ub , many of u ~ wet"e al ready dl~ep south 1 sou ll\ wide • And Uefore. you

h ad , I G>ean outside of the Freedom Rides, the main focus that

Mississippi wa~> the f~od drivt! which took 1Jlace in : .. ississ-L1 pi in 62 spring of,

uh, Fall of 62 , svring o·f '63, \1>· had thousands of people <>n the voter regis tra-

tion lines in Creen..,ood, ~lississipri, and previous t o Lhst point , you bad

a major direct action cmrpaign in All>aoy, Geot·gin. Now •• and besides your

program that ~~s in Albany, Georgia, SNCC had direct action pr<>jects Ut Orangeburg,

South Gar~lina, in Raleigh , in Nashville, _______ in llirutingham, in

Danville , a project in Virginia which broutht thousands of people as a SNCC • •• • ••

ts a mntter of fact 1 directed that. It had (rogr~s &oinb on ln Arkanaas , there

was a whole ~rovemcnt. ovel" ln l;l1leru1, and they 'Ju itt th<> Pin~: lJ EE •··O ·=:mt •'l>.i.ch

Non~V~olent .Ac tion C=i.ttc.c. based out oE the Bra.d;:.n ' $ home . And un, ..... they had projects all over the deep south and tbat His.sissippi bec!lllle a focus

because i.t be<1a111e tbc. first attempt by SNCC into a state-wide project . Bec.ause

~l ississippi is basically a state-wide black belt area ,at least f r ol\l the political

reference point, a political point oE view.

tion. Sp~aking of Alabama , yuu know SNCC has

Al•~aga just has that ce.n~ral por­

o~~ted in Dallas county e.var since

the spring of 1962 and had a major direct action proj~ot ln Dallas, Dallas

county Alabama, before U had one in Nississippi which tool< place in the

spring of ·6J sp uh , it had been around th.o deep $OU't.h tor quite a '"nile . And

every once in a while it stn.rtad a project i.n the 11orth, the first school boy-

cott o£ the 60's took place in Chic~o was orbanized and directed by SNCC. As

a matter o[ fact thl! head of the ochool buycott co'" ittee was a guy nao,~d Larry

(S)

who was ch airmall o( Chi.cago S!ICC a t the time .

All.: u.., 1 when Lhc t issi.s$ippi project was b. ___ ____ to 1.0\J is ville, .• • •• ••

recognize it? .. . . .. a coord-inator, ·

liD : We.tl, the re was never any daubt . Bob 1-!os>s "a•~ by SNCC. The diLector

of th" s~cc ~·issi~sippi f>t'O j cct . llow ""l!!n Bo!.. and rom. _____ ___ put

together COFO, wh icll was a brothH like op"ratl•:m i nvolving all the civil rights

organi~ati.ons. Basically what that means i.s th"t it involved the lli,, sissiu i

state branch of the NAACP , the SCI£ citi.~.<nship pro:;ram in ~· ississippi., national

ear.e and national s~~c .

./ David Dennis who was

llob was the dhector of thaL whole overation with

• ------- Tom G.-"------- associa t e d i rector

of C(IFO officially the head oE COl'O w t at the sat11e tiane .,aintained his O{'era-

tions as tile h..,ad of S~CC , bu t that title as such wasn't v~ry n•eani~ul in

sallie senses because each o( the l ocal pcojects had developed l ocal <li.ractors and

each of th~ congress ional districts also had its own director . So Sob more

helped in coordinating and pl an_ning stratemo at that par ticular !'oint in bislory,

AR : Whal was actually the , ........ COFO in deci.;ling on suu" e r projects F!)P off ice . How

was that interrelated?

ID : 1 think thal is a confusion in history . COfO was formed io 19o2 , uh , for certain

political ce~sons and COFO wa~ the Lase for vot e r oag is t r ation . The VFDP , the

Mississippi Freed""' Democratic 1'a >· ty. bejjan to take form and shape in the

sutr.mer of 19611 wltl.ch was .sort or an •outgrowth of the " 'ock elections of the tall

.,, ... : ·' and wintl!r of t963 whieh involved ill: . H.e.n ry and th.at cno•pl!ign the SNCC staff and

' coro·. As 1 remember , COFO as a

•• )l ( .... _._~

$taff organfza•ion was about 90% SNCC and c.2%

I others . - .

All. : \~ere you dow11 t here in t he ·•inter of '63?

IO : ~~re . So th~t 1 was th~re thai whole period . So thtt CCFO as a voter

r~gistration base was <J.esi , nc;d teO deal "With the 'l""'~tion of vo t e r re istracion

(b)

activLLy . After tlv~ I ::.r:cl• e.lection, it b<>c:ame c:lear that people in thl! south

then<selves r.ust beti n to d"veloR a J>Olitic:lll organization, Now COFO "lls

act up by statE for di.fferant l<i.nds of rellsons . The ~'FOP was an ef(ort by

staff to have a ~o""' unity b<!r,in to s<>t Uf:' it~> own politi~l fot·ms and its o<m

pol iti.c:al sh"pe and sooet hing that W lS run by ~'ississippi people and not run

by a staff . ~ot by stafl from the outside or a stsCt from the inside . For

t ha1: matt"r, so th<Lt there 1.-ere different places and by the time th~>t Lhe ~.FOP

ani! had ta""n shape ..W.c:h was in the sumrer of '64 , OJFO h ad

sor-t ot an abstraction. There wasn't r .. any a COFO any1 ore . l"ost people col'-

sidercd themselves hississipr>i. F'reedou1 Oeuoc:ratic Party workers and COFO had served

its role . tts rote had laid the foundation ~or the creation of a MFDI' .

HFDr was a t issia~ippi based opecatiQn run by ~lississir.pi peopl e . So that

they repre•ented a progression of events rather than an overlapping or you know,

c:ounterfo~ ces against each. other ..

AR: .................. .. . ..

ID: Oh , yes. In aU its glBll'or . AI'·.

A:e-: • Well, Ill' IO: I don ' t !<noN U I '"'nt to go into all the details of P'-'tsonality conflicts ,

t gueSSc to history in some ways both things will. be important ~ut I think t hose

things ~eed a more definitive analysis, ~ore than what a tape recorder allows

you to give . You kao'"• that: ' s a wh.ol.> story study in itself. Row peopl!!

related and Eunctioned in ~tlanta City. Rasically ~hat h.appened was t hat a dele-

gation of the ~J ississi.ppi Vrecdom Perocratic Party Delegation ;and its sraff

went t o Atlantic City. I w~s given tile assignment the first few days there to

run a lol>lyin~ oparation. What took plaec was some people on the delegation

s~af f were assif.o~d cart a in st.etes whan~ ;"' thou g ilt th.at r.hey would suppot't

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a, friendly overtures by G'.e<Tiers of the delegatloh$ of sta.tes like l•'assacltusetts,

Michi.f!,an, New York and CaliforniA and t<e Legan to lobby to get strong

resolutions and to keep the t€ n.eml.>ers oE tl\e ~ redent i11ls !Or. "'i. t tee, you knot•,

in support of our position . Other peovle have been as;<igne<l to lobby with states

l• ,, ' ~ • • t hat ttand • t up tl.ll that t1.me taken positions th;>t weoe v"ry favorable) to

pres.<>.nt the" IJit.h our brief and to an5o:.:Br quest ions wl.ich th~y raisad. Other

people on staff took on the role of . ~ [ h6.!1 -the actLVl.St ••••.•• •• they too'< act-ive

support of' the ~FOP and other forms of ditect act ion in support of the t-l'Dl' con-

quest . Now obviously a nuwb.!r of thin&s b•gon Eo lnke place . Initially, a

broad rant1e of su~port was gathered . l'eovla like the Nation;ol Council of

Churches, people like CORE , veople like SNCC, feople like Dr . King and the

Southerr1 Chri.stbn l.ead .. r ship Conference, the United Automobile \Jork.,rs ' Unlon,

other presti.~, ious peopl~, you kno'l support ~e. H 'l)P • s chall.an<~e · llaslcally wha-t

was up "''~~ that the bFIJl' throuzh lft .. 7:• .. . ~d de"" lopment of a., ne~ thu"

organizational st.ruc.tt;~re , very deuocratlcally t.o&-etMr . As de.r.•ocro.c:t icall;~ as

one c·ou.ld pUt anythl.ng, together in ~ississin i c,.i ven ito historical

development and bases within that state . lnd detinitely u-oce constitutional than

any of tha delei,ales who l.'::'re elected by the re;;uh:r o(!ll.(ICrat.s in tim State of

M:Lssissi{'pi. Ano all of this is dctait~dly ou tHned in itrief . 'l'he Lr i af was

written !>y students witn th., aid of the ~·ississippi oreedom Democratic Party

and was ar!lued by Joe Rau~b and they Legan to lob•,y and pr-esent thei~ legal

ar~ument to the ered>ntials ~omcittee . In the Credentials Comr ittee deve l oped - ' a split, you had strong peo_le like Edith Green frot1 Oregon, acgu in;!

(._.:!. •'r-' ... in .wa-nt of

the Mississi~pi Freedom Oemocracic r~rty an~ you had contradiction of having L ''3:, . .

to denl ui.t.h a bla.ck ~on.gre.ssrean nneted Jk.._igg-~ but ret-ain i.n_g, th.e establish1J1ent' s

mind. All ~:hat for the t·ississi(.pi Fre-edor< llemocrati ... PatLy, S·> an~ against Lhcrn.

The po·.·~r plays b2came ""ry ola.1n . S«natvr :umj hrc)' at tha• time ncLed as

the nd' ini~tr,tiun 's hatchet nm, pull in,_ t o :ethur U1a l orcas Ln the

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Cr~dentials Cotemittee t"O reject lclul ~hallenge beginnin(l ro lobby 1d1:h other

delegates in other state detegatlons to reject t\ta challenge. And from that: a

[J-t~ .. : "·' r~$ ... :-" a 111<1.-fHjWQ, con.promise was developed and that was where the Credential Com-

mittee was wil ling to give two seat.s ,you know , to the }:rur-- , not. o(tly •. ;-ere they

just going t o give 2 seAts to the HP<)P, tut they !.'are goiRg to tell the N!'Ol'

" ' , .. "

~''""'-P""''f'iol.1illol .u·n,;·.,....,~•tz-•oi±....,~,-"""" t ake the t wo seats . They nau~d Dr . AAron Henry

and the chAplain at Tougaloot wl\o, urn • .

AB. : Ed ling

Oil : lld King , Reverend F.d King, at that time was to take the seats "hich was

con:p l ete l y contradictory to what the M'D~ was about. I menn the ~;FIJI' in no

way was s<>ekint support or '{okenlsu and th.ey ~<ere being told wno their l eatl.ars

were and a ' ~ken spe~ch wi th polit i ca l synbolism gescu~e , with no political

meaning. The ~'FO!c did not come to Atlantic City in any way to sit down with

racist .for ces_, they caiDe to challanga the- racist forces within tha frattte\"ork

of t he ~e~ooratic party of the United States. An~ tharefore il was like a

bl o<> i n the face for th""' to receive this . No"' what evanLually took placa

was that a number of clashes came ov~r the issues of wheth~r or not the ~tOP

shoU l d accept the compromise . Sane factions ar~uP-d t hat as a s tmbolic gesture

they had won an' i~.portant pol i.tical vi.!! tory and ehey ought to ac.:ept the

coa,prornise. Oth,u- facti<>ni! an.:,ue.d that they had made !:.heir 1 oint, that in

fact they had won a ~olitical I03it i on showing t hat the~ was ban~ruptcy of

morality "'ithin lha oe.,ocratic l'arty and -....lthin tll:> country in its inability

to acce~t somethin~ outside the establishmen t beinb v~ry tesitimuta and its

inability to sty tha• scnc~hin8 in th~ establisbrue~t is ~ry sick and l~ere fore

should be re~ov.?.d . \nt th<~L ch••y bad ''"d" that ~oint V>-ry c::leA:- in th., i.r C3~e

-... . .... ..... ~.· ~.\ .. -and that tlu::.y our.:.ht. noL. t.o acc..,_tt t,..ha-t cta ll enze.-~ .. :, .... ~ ..... .,._....,.L.f,;,V"'"""'

- ..:.-ro-~· ....... -- -·

I '

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1-r~ '" l.C:=:;;:i=::::;.:;::;;.,:::.:_:::r;;::::;::._~ tht>t by accepting that conollromisa they would haw.

negated anythinl.> they had struggled for which was the whole quest ion of

whether l'e01le would accept l'ol<enisoo in 1Y60 ' s Gnd whe the r people should hav" to

sit do"'11 wi.Lh racists, t.o discuss their I - · j , you kno«, th•ir rirht to exist,

to be , you kno~. people (eel that these are no lon~er points c( uiscossion but

thin:;s that .-ust ba decided rel'rlily and shollld La ac..,epted readily to any

·.t society. '>o ' of cou csa, evan LU 111 Ly 1\appenud to us or The ~·~ill' 1 <Jd by

Mrs. Kamer , who decided to reject the chollenge (lh

to Hississippi t o wor:k e ven harder to buil d an oparation. Yah , th:ere \o.'t!TC

persona liLies within t FOP who uanted to aceo>pt the cor promise . lloc H" n .-y was one il' "1\1.

of tham. lle """ vary i .I becausC" he. was th<> symbolic head of t he ~'loOP at

Atlant i c City bu t t he position Ah•ays of the f.FDP was that it made its decl.sicons

collectively and not jus t sat down leaders in tha back room and decid~ the

st.,ate"y ~:~nd the problems of tlte. wor-ld but th.nt they would sit down .....e

do'.oln tog<Jther tn a collect.~ve g raup and deci.;l" »hat t<inds of t hinlls they wan le.d

to do . ,v

Joe • •· who aro;ued w.ry beautifully the case of Lhe tl;.rp initially . ll"'Q~ 1<1 ... If, • ..,

the comf rqtn1se cao•e down .......... indi;;iduals, who felt the cotrtro-beEore

mise, &though not neceosarily ho no r able, ~aybe should b<> accept~d . ' nd there

were tnany pe.ai le with.in th.is ~amp . You kno~..,, for l,(nrying and different reason.s t

I dan ' t like to nmre tilelll all tot.e ther because LJ bav"' the ten<lency to say th.at

they're all the saane, btLt they aLl approach this for enti rely <.!i..f£erent typo::s

oE reasons . t thln;. possibly one aE t:he ILQSt shoc•<lng things , <>f 'lll the.

people wha support the cocrpromise ~ J

was James F.ar~x ~ you knov wbo

in the ~:l'Dl' who wor~d ve~y h~rd. 'n1

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ought to take the con.px-omise position, but he took a neutral position at a time wh;w

pe.ople thought that he had the re.sponsibil Lty la tal<e a more decisive roJe, one

way or the otll.,r: , so t hat the pt!oyle of the delegation could und~rstuncl what he

was s<~ying . f.ut instead he sort of th<ew his lluuds up and was unable to deal

with the sitllation. llllile on tile other hand of c out'se, !lob ~·uses (Bobl•y,i'l'.)

took a po3ition that we ought to accept Lt. !l.ut bob's position basically was

thAt i n thP fi.n~l ~nt11V~ict, rhP dPciJOif n l!' .:trlP w:;~q r.:o i.JP ltl$:1rlP. hy rh~ t i~!ds~ir•l i

"' Freedom Democratic party and it was ronde ~y theu1 a closel section .

AI:.: •• . ••.••••• . • .. You ,

10: It was, bou though the people should accept or r~ject it . Excu9e·, I didn't

mean to say that. tab's person~l ~osition was ~hac the peo1le should reje~t

the coo prOil\ise . hu tc in the final analysis, that wnaL was deci.d•~d <.'as the 68

delegates and t.heir alternaLes ouet in a closed ses~ion and without any of the s 'tan

or any of the national civil rights peorle O< .qnybody else ~·eetin& with them and

argued it out and hamo.e<ed i t out and decid;>d by a vary decisive v<>te th,qt tltey

would reject the ca••prollise and l'ro~ed on and that's what they did. Nowwnat

became t he issue then with the rejection of c~w~romise was to make it a • • •••

I i gb.t on the floor of th<> convention . This is ""LY interesting and v=ry irn~<> r-

t a nt because what happened was that Johnson refus~d to allow tha issue to

come to the floor on th.> conventi.on. I think Lhat it ' s J:""" Lo be one can lo,...k

back and say that had the issu~ cone t c the floor, the I issi.ssip?i Freedom

Oa.lLocratic llarty wou l d h~ve Le.en sen.t..:d . This i s another instance, inciden t, ub,

an ex:U~"~tle: o-f ... here ,n;.ericanot are not allot .. ~d vote On an issue . You knO"-' , it ' s

all controlled for you bl!nind bac1< do(Jrs. !)'h;tt happened was lhe minority • .•

was gi v.on tba

(,., •• t] minorily ..,_.,..t was

01)

"i ven and wl>ien was ruled up and do "''t by

the chairm~n. And there {~~s no v~te, you knov, it was all done by acclaroation.

Of course what eventually de,Jalopcd Crow un<ii!r this was the fact that lhe

Presid,:,nt himself who wanted to l-e no11lnate~ by a floor vote, haJ t<: ba noidnatc>.d

by a pur0 act of accl;,rr.ation because had ha been nomlnated by the floor vote, it would

hav.> allo1.·cd th.! opportunity ior other issues that people wat>ted to have, you

/ know, . 'r\ 1..~ a floor vote or lost cy a floor vote. or to be brou'(;ht up lo ttlble ,

ID: I haven't much ti~e

A!! : Af1:er the coupror ise th~ P"O[lc, the con llnil-y P"Of'le, that ~"ere SUI>f-OSed to

back up th" COil'prondse .. .et aL Che back of a c:.huL·ch to dcdJe on, t o tal;.. ;>hout

.. ttJ~'\ ....

a wonopoly (7) ~;here ~ s~p(>ose t o ~ o o:loo.ul n;eetinr, , but ..... . . . was sup-

po~e to sho1· . ..• . ••• 'ilere you there? 1li1l ~'eads -w I • "• go around th,o r poo• ,

and psuh for a £1:oor fi~:>ht?

11): \/ell you have to unde.rstan,l the power ~olidcs and how it daveloped and !'round? at

that tiD!e there was a conference of the UA\1 . The UA!~ Wll3 backing the I·I.'Dl> so

• '<jj4g also, a$ history FU Ls.;_ _____ _ about the compromise ,i~

left Joe l(au h hanviog out in the. ll'iddle . He had to 111ove the way his o~;gani-

zation ttowd an-d iL ~"awe "lear Rauh would not !!Jpport a t inod.ty r<=J•ort

And he didn't in Lhe l.Lnal hour . There wer" other peo}'le lh"c' also who folks

thought wou"d support a IDinorlty report , ••••• • I th.ink you have to understand that

'there was Lre~::eudvus prcssu= broHr,ht to ba o~e on all t.he petcple . I thin« it took

2 lot of go ts to support the t•inorily report . And a nlllllber of r.eap le. made it very

cleitr th'lt their 't•ale val iti.zal career was in jeova<dY i.I they 1;oul<l sup(.loct

that <>nd not co1tly tlt<lr 1 ol iticl! c:t.n,cr , " .ut the p.!rhars c<u:-eers of othe.~; 1>\lll'l:iers

of that f:.x.illes . · r .n '·Ht .Jy on Lhi.s parti.cuL1r- pr~sition tx!causeJohltSln was

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dri-ving a vary lnrd po1nt to his hntc:het c nn Hub-i!rl lllll.phrey .

•.!': • •••••••••••• CAlU:ornLa, the one out in Cnliforu~i wnu, • ....•

1 0 : Yeah she was one io t hcr. •• . •. l'tr sure you've f:lOtlen tt.i" informaUcn tron. a

l ol of people . You tn•k •• •.•• nround ~ ~unch of thing~?

Afi : Yeah.

lind