Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 1902

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions. [14 NovEMBER.] Questions 1201

FRIDAY, 14 NOVEMBER, 1902.

The SPEAKER (Hon. Arthur :Yiorgan, Warwick) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

QUEi:lTIONS. LEGAJ, ExPE;:,-sEs OF THE GovER:«li!ENT

DJ;;PART;\IENTS.

Mr. :VIAXvVELL (Burke) asked the Treasurer, the Secretary for Rail ways, the Secretary for Public L>tncl", the Secretary for Agriculture and Educ,.t,ion, the Chief Secretary and Secretary for 2\linee, and the Home Secretary, respec-thely-

1. \Vhat amount has been paid in legal expenses by the department or departments presided over by him during the financial years 1901-1902 and 1902 to date?

2. To whom w,ere the payments made, and what was the amount in each respective c:1.se?

The TREASURER (Hon. T. B. Cribb, Ipswich) replied-

! would ask the hon. member to postpone llis qne,-:-tion till 'rnesday to enable me to obtain the informa-tion.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon .. J. Leohy, Bulloo) replied-

As this is really a return that is asked for, I beg to Jay the same upon the table of the House.

l. £7~9 :ls. !Od. 2. Sir A. Rutlcdge, K.C., £252 ls. 6d.; 1fl·. E. :\f.

Li!Jey, £27a l"s 6d.; Mr .• T. L. Woolcock, £23 2s.; ">Ir. J. J. King5Uury, £1(15; :J.Iess.rs. Lnmaek. :.\icol Robinson,

1902-4g

and Fox, £6 18s. 4d.; :lfesHs. O'Shea and O'Shea, £7 7s.; :IIr. C. St.umm, £3 5s. 6d.; :VIr. P. Fe wings, £3 3s.; Mr. D. J. R. Watson, £n 13>.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. vV. B. H. O'Connell, .Musgmve) rep!ied-

1. £289 19s. 2d. 2. w. F. Wilson, £108 ; A. :11. Beaumont, £168 Os. 10d.;

A. Feez, £1 lls. 6d. ; )!cGrath and Sheldon, £·1 4s. ; Stafford, Corser, and Hat'rington, £4 19s. lOcl. ; Rilth-ningand Jensen, £3 as.

The SECRETARY :FOR AGRICULTURE AND EDUCATION (Hon. D. H. Dalrymple) replied-

l. £115 3s. 10d .. of which £109 16s. 4d. was for pro-secutions instituted by the Chief Inspector of Stock.

2. P. B. )IacGregor, £2 4s. 6d.; Chambers, Bruce, and :VIe:'! ab, £3 3s.; Brurnm and Grant, £11s. 9d.; L. }J. liobler, £:l6 15s. 7d.; Morris and Fletcher, £42 Ss. 8d.; Alfred Lilley, £lls.: l

1202 Questions. (ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

2. \\flat amo11nt has been received in harbour dues from 1st September, 1898'

The TREASURER replied-1. Drcd~ing £189,609 11

Trainmg-walls, rock-blasting, &c. 85,086 H ll

Land resumption ------ £274,696 G 2

26,574 18 3

2. Harbour dues J.Jindon Bates dredges and other

plant, not necm:;sarily for Bris-

£301,271 14 5 £117,799 19 4

bane only ... . £188,853 18 6

Mr. KnmTON : And yet you wonder why we want a Brisbane Harbour Board !

RmHiCTION 01tte on ~fr.

Land Bill. [14 NOVEMBER.] Land Bill. 1203

tenants for improvements, I do not see why any different cour>e should be followed by the Crown. In most countries a tenant can claim compensation when he is disturbed by the landlord ; "'nd it is now fixed in the old country that where a tenant has effected im-provements, and he g-ives up his lease, or the lease expires, he shall be compensated by the landlord for the value of those improvements; and I con,ider that the Crown should deal as fairly with their tenant" as a private land-lord is ubliged to do with his tenants. In another clause with regard to leaseholder8 I am afraid the Minister for Lands has imitated the bad example set in the Income 'l'ax Bill of investigating people's books. [The SECRETARY ~'OR PuBLIC LAXDS : That is taken from the New South Wales Act.] That is equally bad. I am afraid it will act in two ways. I think if the balance-sheets of all the leaseholders for the last ten years were shown no financial institution would touch Queensland land in the interior. I will now deal with what I am better acquainted with-namely, the selection portion of the Bill. I notice that nothing is done with the small selector of 1,280 acres. Those selections go by the misnomer of ''agricultural seleciion"," but they ought to be called agistment selections or something of that description. 'rhey were merely an experiment, and they have been a most disastrous experiment to the small people who have taken them up, and who have been utterly unable to meet their liabilities. :;'\;othing we can do will do them much good, unless t!Jey could get the freehold for the money they have already paid, with the condition that they must not sell for five or six years, m· whatever term is considered de"irable. I have received 1Ptter3 frorn the two agistinent sedle~ rnent15 of that description in rny electorate, and I am sure they are half starved, and will not be able to pay off even the year' cl arrears of rent. Those are men who have been saving tbe money they earned, and invested their savings in those small blocks thinking they could make money by agi~tn1ent, but for the last three or four ye(lrs there has b~~n nothing on theit .selections and they are really in w:mt of help. I now come tu the 5.000-acre ,,Jecti large quantities of first-class country in the Barcoo, Mitchell, and Gregory dis-tricts which are suitable for selection in such blocks only that they are absolutely dry, and that class of selector cannot afford to put down a bore. vVith regard to the clause dealing with the maximum acreage to be govArned by the amount of rent up to £125, I consider that is altogether too low. As a matter of fact, in most places the land is 2d. an acre in the Central district, and I consider £200 should be the lowest amount. A man paying rent up to £200 should be allowed to increase his area, and I think it would ba of gl'e:,t nse. A very good clause in this Bill is the clause dealing with the reappraisement of rtHls, but this will have to be very carefully dc,alt with. Before the reap-praisement of runs can be safeguarded, the tender system must be abolished, because, under the re-appraisement and tendt-~l' ~:5ystern, a rnan rnight tEmder at 3d. an acre, which is too high an amount. He will tender under that, and after three years

he will apply to the commi"sioner [4 p.m.] to get his rent lowered. This is not

a vague statement that I am making, fu1· I can quote similar occurrences wt1ich ta.ke place in Ireland. Under the land law" there a tenant would very frelocks. There is a provision in the Biil in regard to agricultuntl b·lUH:cs!i~.l.ds, ·"'llowing a 111an whu !1as a "tore or hotel close to hi• homestead to fulfil the con·-iitions of residence by living close to the land, and I do not see why the s.>me thing should not apply to females, and a n1arried wom ~n be allowed to fnlfil her conditions of residence by living in th" same house with her lmsband. vVhat is good in the one ca'e ought to be good in the other. Kuw, with regard to the priority clau,e in the selector.-·' part of the BilL That, no do11bt, sounds very well, and without close study might p •SS muster; but I mn totally against it for the reason that whrtt the :.;elector.s are crying out for i.s ;::;ome conce·-~ion.~ which will be of financial value- such :1 valne tb:1t you can walk into a bank when the drought has broken and '"k the ~entleman in the parlonl' whether hl' will advance you money to help restock youl' holding. He ash what your ~ccurity is, and you HhO\V hirn t.baf; you h"tre priority under whatever prucLunation exists at that date, and he will sirn rJly inform you that that is of no value whatever as ::;ecurity. In rny idea it would Le far prefet,tble to give those rnen a concet:;~iion in the shape of a nuiuber of years' tenure, as the pa,storallrssees are given. Now I con1e to the most important nlanst- in tbe Bill, which gives to >;elector,; the option of making freeholds of their holdingA. I have already stated my objection to sdlmg vV est ern lands on any ground whatsoever, and I still hold the same objections; but I will try to show hon. members how impos,ible it would be for a selector to purchase his holding and pay off his

1204 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

liability on the terms now offered. I have taken an average of three years-1896, 1897, and 1898-on my own selection t>f 20,000 acres of good land ,,n the Thompson, and I will show the receipts and expenditure during ~hose three yearB-

£ 8. rl. ~Ianagement and wages ... Stores

115 1.) 112 3

9 1

R.ation meat account Sht·tring account 1/fool carrhge account

Expense account-General ( 1\:penses Stnmp account Stat.ionen' account TraveHini;; expenses :Post ancl telegraph

account

Exchange account ... Commission account

35 11 10 l 9 3 2 10 4 7 16 3

1 9 2

16 18 5 2~3 16 9 6! 7

48 16 10 3 11 1 3 11 3

Assessment account-Divisional board ra,tes, £21 18s. ld. ; rent, £166 13s. 188 11 1

29 4 10 5 g 3 6 6 9

Droving account Insurance account Lamhmarking account Improvement account :Boring account Plant account Saddlery account Horse acconnt

... 170 16 11 54 19 3 28 18 7 17 1 5 i5 9 5

176 9 8

£ s. d.

Sheep account ---- 1,331 7 6

Cattle stock account V{ool account Horse account Sheep account

16 1 9 ... 1,598 15 9 ... 0 15 2 ... 108 17 10

----1,72410 6

£;)93 3 0

That shows a profit of £393 :k on .£5,000, which is abunt 8 per cent. I have not charged for my own work, r,nd I have taken the value of the place at £5,000, which I do not think can be called excessive, anti I have not charged interest. Now suppose I invest .£fi,OOO outright on mortgage~, that would bring me in Jo:2ii0 a year, and I could sit down and live in Brisbane with-out any responsibility whatever. You see that my figures show th•t I am left a very small margin, as my own work cannot be put down as being worth lesq than .£100 a year. U I then take off the lnsses, and that reduces me again. It takes a man all his time, and exercising the greatest economy, to make a living off 20,000 acres at 2d. an acre. In fact it does not pay at that, after reckoning up all the losses. Those thr"e yec.rs that I have quoted were go(Hl years, and what t.he years following rave been you can imagine. Now take the offer of the present Bill ; 20,000 acres at 10s. an acre is .£10,000. The first payment 1s .£2,500, and the balance .£7, 500 which has to be paid at the rate of £571 5R. iH"r annurn for nineteen Y< .n-.. The total paid at the end of nineteen years will be £10,853 15s., which, together with the amount paid during the first year, amounts to .£13,353 15s., which is equal to ahout 13•. 4.fd. per acre. Take it he pays £10,000 do"n and the acreage is 20,000 acre~, what do we fiud out then? Taking the interest on the rnone~' borrowed at 5 per cent., that means that the tenant has to pay 6d. a year, and w•.' may reckon the divisional boud rates and other rates at another 1d., so that he will have to pay 7d. a yea.r per acre. Noo,1· com-pare that with the profit I hove made and it is not a sufficiently good inve~::tinent for any man. The Crown would be rocking an exceedingly good bo.rgain. They wGuld get £2,500, and I guarantee that no st·lector would continue to carry on under the present conditions for five years without becoming bankrupt, unless he

sold out to some other benighted individual. I hope this provision in the Bill will not pass, for I see no ad vantage can be gained from such provisions. The only way out of the rliffi-culty, as far as I can see, is to make the follow-ing rates :-Lands in Class J. to be sold at 6s. Sd., Class II. at 5s., and Cla,ses IV. and V. at 3s. 4d. per acre, but I feel sure that public r,pinion would not allow that. I consider that the Government propose to treat the selectors who are in arrears with their rents in an ex-tremely liberal manner, but I consider that the tenant who has paid up what is due is treated in very many instances with very undue regard. In very many cases tenants have had to borrow monrv at 5 per cent. to pay their rents, and now the Crown are charging tenants who cannot pay up only 4 per cent. I do not think that is fair to the tenants who have honourably met their engagements. You give no concessions to the tenant who has paid up. [The HoME SECRE-TARY: Perhaps the rents are too high.] Yes, I quite agree with the hon. gentleman there. He seems to have changed his views since he was Minister for Lands; he had a different idea of the value nf lrtnds in those clays. [The SECRE-TARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I don't think so.] These men are entitled to snme concession. It is thought by some people that if this Bill passe~ that there will be a danger

Land BilT. [14 NOVEMBER.] Land Bill. 1205

):.lnffering frorn an aihnFnt, which developed in after yearA into a di~ea.:-:e~ and now it iti thrt=tatened with death, bJoe, unlation for improve-[4·30 p_m,] ment

1206 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

a good many of the improvements are so neces-sary that nobmly can nccupy the country with-out paying- for them, 1 do not anticipate a very larg-e pecuniary loss to the le~sees, though there will be in some case~. Against that we must put the length of lease they have and the length of time they will have afterwards. The ques-tion as to classification w1ll require careful consideration, otherwi8e grave danger may ensue. It may seem a perfectly easy thing to classify runs, and you can imagine the Land Court taking evidence in their office as to the value of certain run~, and claRsifying them according to the evidence they have receive adjacent runs which I know of, almost exactly the same are~, artesian water, and everything, and managed by two different men, One man keeps 140,000 sheep on his country and loses on them. The other man keeps 80,000 sheep on his country and makes a profit.' The Land Court cannot know that there is a loss in one case, while a profit is secured in the other. The evi

Land Bill. [14 NovEMBER.] Land Bill. 1207

he did not make enouf(h out of it. At any rate, the hon. member showed by some figures that be did not. I can quote to him cases where men have not had anything like the eapital he bad, and yet made enongh money out of their selec-tions to extend their operations. I know one case in which a man started with onlv a few hundred pounds on a 10,000-acre selecti"on, and put down an artesian bore, bought an adjoining selection of 1,280 acres, and two adjoining leases, paying cash for them all out of his selection. There are men who have done well out of their selectins. But this right of purchase is only permissive-a man is not com-pellfd to purchase. He may or may not buy; but giving him the right to do so adds to the value of his lease as a security. If selectors do not purchase, no harm will be done by passing the provision. As to such a provision being in the interest of financial institutions, I have known many cases where financial institutions have helped a man, and ha,·e been most grati-fied to find that the man paid off his liabilities steadily and gradually, and at last declared himself quite free. I do not know that financial institutions have a desire to get large areas of land to work themselves. \Vhat was a guilt-edged security some years ago they will not touch now, because they do n0t want a number of blocks of land. All that a financial institution wants is interest on its advance,. Those institu-tions do not ~o in for grabbing land. Clause 39 is another important provision. It repeals the disability which prP.vents a man holding a selec-tion where he has a leasehold. I was lately talking to a man who had had some experience in this matter, and he said, "If the Government say at once that they W>ll not allow a lessee to select under any circumstances, we shall know where we are, and we have no desire to fight against their dictum; but to say that a man shall not select in the district where he lives, but may select 80 miles away where he does not live, is a palpo1ble absurdity." I have known cases where the manager of a station has been advised by his employer to 'elect on the station where he was managing, because he could look after his splec-tion and at the same time serve his employer, and in that way make provision for his children. And this man is not able to avail himself of any-thing of the kind, so long as he is working on the station. There was the case of a manager for the late l\Ir. \Villiam Allan. He had an offer of financial help, anrl the only wa.y he could avail himself of the offer was by giving up his billet as manager, and it did not"pay him to do that. I know a man who is a selector near Cunnamulla, an overseer on one of the adjoining stati0ns. He had to give up his billet b~fm·e he could select a piece of land within 15 miles of where he lived. If a man is allowed to select at all, let him select in the place where it will do him most good. With regard to clause 41, dealing with waiver of forfeiture, I think the way the arrears of rent are distributed is very liberal indeed. I thought at first that the payment of arrears was to commence on a date to be fixed by the Minister, but it seems to me that it is to start in 1903. It does not follow that if we legislate to make it start then, it will enable men to start paying at that particular time. I would rather it had been left to th8 Minister to give them breathing time, and tell each individual when to commenc" to pay up arrear•. The redetermination of rent is a thing I have been very anxious to see passed into law. I have always said, not that the rents arc too high, but they are unequal. A poorer class of land pays a higher rent than the better class of land, and a redetermination will bring them to an equality that will satisfy the holders. If

I am paying half as much again for poorer land than my friend Js paying for richer land, I do not rejoice at his good fortune, but feel that I am injured, though I took up the

1 land with my eyes open. Clause 45 makes it possible to c-ell large areas nf \V est ern !an d. Of course there will be a decided stand against this; bnt where is the objection? First of all, the land is better in the hands of owners than in the hands of the Government-anyone who has seen the nests we have in Queensland admits

1 that. An.d suppose we had to buy the land back fifty or sixty years hence, W8 would be buying what would be fit for use; hut if we leave it in the hands of the Crown, when it is wanted for use it will not be worth any-body's taking. I am pleased that priority is glVen to the present les,.•es in nearly every case where it is possible. The Minister baA not

1 only made it attractive to other people so that they will come to the country, but be recog-nises that he owes more to the pn,sent lessees than to any selector who may come from any-where else"; and I am proud that he has given

: priority to the men who have gone out and taken up land in years past as agaillst any competitor who may come in. I think the Minister has done his b'·'t to produce a liberal Bill, generally speaking. He has recognised the fact that be

' must make it attractive, and he has taken care of the selector, and if any amendments will make the .eill more liberal I shall have great pleasure in supporting them, because the only thing we can do is to be more liberal in our land laws than our neighbours if we want people to come here.

1 The people out in the 'West live under dis-, adva,ntages that must be taken into considera-

tion when it comes to a matter of settlement. A 1

man having a choice of climate close to the ' coast, with all the advantages of civilisation,

unless you offer him something abundantly better out West, will choose to stay inside. \Ve can get plenty of settlers inside the coast range ; but in order to induce people to go and live out \Vest, where it is hardly fit to live, you must in some way offer them some compensation, some possibility of making money so that they can retire to a place where it rains sometimes. ThR further \V est you go, the worse are the

1 conditions ; therefore, the further out you go the more liberal should be the terms. If there is any opposition to the liberal clauses of this Bill, I shall be very much astonished, because most of the members on the other side have some knowledge of the \Vestern country. Our fir~t duty to the country in which we live is to get the land settled and the people prosperous, and we

i can only do that by offering terms as liberal as possible, because God has not left any induce-ment in '"\Ve"tern Queensland for any white man to go and live there. 'What God has neglected to do, the i\1 inister for Lands has attempted.

Mr. PLU::SKETT (Albe1·t): I w1sh to say a few words as a representative of a coast district. I may say at once that I cannot compliment the Minister for Lands on the way in which he has introduced this Bill, in one important particular. 1 think he should have provided a map tinted

1 in such a manner a,; to enable us to see clearly what we are doing. [The SECRETARY FOR P"CBLIC

! LANDS: That was shown last year when the 1 Bill was brought down. Thene has been no

material change since then.] \V ell, I cannot remember what occnrred last year,

[.~ p.m.] and I think it would have been very easy to have had a map here show-

ing e\'erything that vve require to see, and making the matter more intelligible to bon. m em-

' bers. I may say that >tlthough there is a necessity for the introduction of a L·,nd Bill, yet this appears to me a sort of panic legislation. Last session we had a Lrmd Bill, which at that time

1208 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

was considered very liberal. It went to the Upper House, where the leader of that Chamber said it was the most liberal measure that could be

Land Bill. [14 .NovEMBE!l.j Land Bill. 1209

i1a •·e referred to, and I think they should !Jave some share in the prosperity of the country, tu place of all the benefits going into the hand,; of a few men. I comider that a great deal of the lands in the coastal districts could be taken up as grazing farrns or a". grazing homesteads, but they have nut been taken up, and some people have Ot, as between the cummissioner and the l\iini.ster, and I believe it would giYe more satisfaction-at least so far as the settled districts are concerned-if the commisoioner and the ::\Iinister settled the matter without bringing the Land Court into it at all. If the Lo.nd Court· has anything to do with it, it means delay in every case, I nm quite willing to suppon the longer tenure in the \Vestern districts, where the lessee' are suffer-ing greatly; but not in the" inside districts and along the coast, bar the Gulf country-I know very little of that. The Gulf country is not in the settled districts. [The SECHETARY J

1210 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY . .] Land Bill.

on them, e.nd averages the prices that he has received, he will find that he has not had such a good time. If he has, then he is an uncommonly lucky man. In the scheduled area we are offered an extfmsion

of lea'e on certain t~rms. It is [5·30 p.m.] all very well to give an extended

lease ; but, if the conditons are too onerous ad vantage will not be taken of them. In any case it is only possible to get a lease of ten years. In that area there are runs lOO miles and more from any possible hope of settle-ment for years and year,, and yet, because it happens to be agricultural country, the owners will possibly get a very 'hort tenure. In order to obtain that tenure of ten years we are ask,,d, first of all, to give up our right to compensa-tion for improvements, It must be borne in mind th:.t after all the resumptions that have taken place the area of those runs in very few cases exceeds 40,000 acres, and that many of them :.re owned by two or three individuals. On some runs improvements have been effected to the extent of .£.5, 000 or £10,000, consist-ing of fencing, yards, c:.ttle-dips, head st:.tinn, and so on ; and as the incoming tenant must be an agriculturist many of those improvements will he of no use to him, yet the present le•seE: has to waive all right to compensation. The improvements are rlesigned for cattle purpo,es and cannot be used for any other purpose. It is hardly likely that such a tenant would pay .£5,000, or .£500 per annum, for a ten years' lease; it is not worth it. Another condition is the rlestruction of noxious weeds, and you may safely s:.y that at least 50 percent. of the scheduled area, more especially that portion of it which comprises the Darling Downs, is prickly pear land. In the Burnett a very large portion is of that description. And the marsupials also are to be kept down, which in some parts of that district are numerous. \Vith such onerous conditions to comply with, why should the runs in the scheduled area only get a lease of ten years, when the grazing farmer in the same dis-trict, who can take up 20,000 acres, has a tenure of twenty-one years? Adjoining those grazing farms are runs, the leases of which have expired, yet under this Bill they can only get a lease of ten years. It will thus be seen that the grazing farmer is put into a very much better position than the pastoral tenant. It is said the pastoral tenant pttys a much smaller rent, but if anyone will take the trouble to compare the rent now paid by the grazing farmer with that paid by the pastoral lessee in the Burnett, and will take into consideration the fact that the grazing farmer has got the best of his resumed land, and that the rest cannot be used to the best advantttge in consequence, he will ;ee that the pastoral lessee pays quite as much as the grazing farmer on the whole. Objection has been taken to the purchasing clause with reference to grazing selections, on the ground that the selectors will never be able to afford the 10s. per acre. In my opimon it is a very good provision. If the clause means nothing else it gives the grazing farmer a very good chance to borrow money to buy his selection, and it will improve his, position; and, when you come to reckon the rent the grazing farmer has to pay, and the conditions he has to fulfil, you will see that there is not very much difference as far as money payment is concerned. Why should not that condition be extended to the pastoral lessees? If offered at 25 per cent. cash, and nineteen years in which to complete the payment, many pastoral lessees would avail themselves of the opportunity, and the country would receive a very much greater revenue from its lands thttn it h:.s ever received before. They cttnnnt take the J:.nd away. It would give

lessees an inducement to further improve the properties, and make the smaller holding do what the lttrger holding die! in times past. If more encouragement is not given to the pastoral lessee, will any further development go on ? \Vill more work be found? There is more labour absorbed by pastoral lP,sees in the Burnett dis-trict than in ttny other district in Queenslrmd. Yet because they have good country, they are mttrked out for less consideration than is shown to pastoralists in other parts of the State. In the Port Curtis district there is land which is equally as good as the la:nd in the Bnrnett dis-trict, and yet the leases there are not to be tied down to ten years. The shortest term the lessees in thttt district can get is twenty-one years, and I think it 1s only fair to put pastoml lessees in the Burnett district on the same foot-ing tts grazing farmers by extending the term of the lease from ten to· fourteen years. The Secretary for Lttnds referred to the very much larger rent which was received by the Crown from grazing farmers as compared with that paid by the lessee of the Ideraway run. The lessee of that run was paying a higher rent than the lessee of any other run in the Bur-nett district, or, I believe, in Queensland. [The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA)i!DS: Not for the resumed area.] No; fnr the leasPd part of the run. A gmzing farmer came along. and took up this particular piece of land at a rental equal to .£12 per square mile. But there were very special conditions in that case. More than three-fourths of the land was fenced by the lessee of the adjoining run of Y enda and by grazing farmers, and all he had to do was to stock it the moment he got his occupation license. What was the result? On thttt selection he put 1,000 head of cattle ; it could carry one beast to 10 acres. Last week I was talking to that selector in Mttryborough, and he told me thttt he had now thirty- seven head of cattle, and that he would like to get rid of the selection. It would have been far better for him to have purchased that land straight out th:.n to have paid the rental which he was charged. On runs further up grttzing farmer.s have taken up 50 per cent. of the whole of the good land, but if every-thing is taken into consideration it will be found that they are not paying a great deal more rent for that land than is paid by the pastoralists. It is said that there is land ready for grazing farmers, but that the rental is prohibitory. Is that not an argument in favour of giving the pastoralists a long lease? It is far better that the pastoralist should occupy the land and pay a reasonttble rent for it than to keep the land waiting for some grazing farmer who may come along and select it. There are good land~ available in the Burnett district, not on

Land Bill. [14 NOVEMBER.] Land Bill. 1211

leaRt get a tenure for fourteen years. If the financial condition of t.he country improves and the railways are extended further out, the rents of these runs will be increased, so that the position of the lessee in the scheduled area under this Bill is no better than it was under last year's Bill. I am perfectly willing to provide for a maximum and a minimum tenure in the scheduled area. It is quite possible that the opening of a goldfield or the extension of a railway will make la:Jd in some places more valuable, and that the land on certain runs may be required within a very few years. But having regard to all the circumstances and conditions of the case, I think it is only fair to increase the minimum area to fourteen years and make the maximum twenty-one years. That would be very much fairer to pastoralists, more especially pastoralists in the Burnett district, who are large employers of labour, than the proposal contained in the Bill. The longer the tenure given to pastoralists the better position will they be in to em-ploy labour. The Bill is, on the whole, a liberal measure, but I hop" that a few amend-ments will be made in it in committee. The clause with reference to noxious weeds and the inquisitorial provision which allows an examina-tion of a lessee's books to find out how his property is paying should be omitted. I hope also that the provision allowing a grazing farmer to make his holding a freehold will be extended to the pastoral lessees, so that they may make a portion of their holdings freehold if they so desire, paying one-fourth cash and the balance in nineteen years. I trust that in committee we shall not have two parties fighting one against the other, as was the case in connection with the Bill of last year, but that an effort will made to render this measure as effective as possible. The drought has shown that the pastoralindustry is the main industry of the State, and that without it other industries cannot flourish. I may safely say that the food of the Australian is beef. The higher the price of heef the less people have for other things ; and the better position you put the pastoralists in the better chance there is of getting cheap meat.

Mr. HARD ACRE (Leichhardt) : The speeches made by the hon. member for Balonne on pastoral matters are always listened to with great interest, and I don't think there is anyone in the House who has a better grasp of the condi-tions of the \Vestern country and the provisions of the Land Act, so far as they concern pastoral and grazing holdings. Most hon. members who have spoken have dealt with this Bill chiefly from the point of view that it is a re lie£ Bill. It is said that we have a Land Bill every year; and even if there had been no relief measure required, still I think we should have had a Land Bill again this session. Though this is a relief measure in some respects, it is also a general Land Bill dealing with other matters, and is to a large extent a consolidating Bill. I cannot say that I admire very much the arrangement of the Bill; I think it is very badly arranged, indeed. Very vital reliRf provisions are interspersed and intermingled with consolidation claURes, and that makes it. very difficult to understand. I think the relief proposals might have been put together at the commencement of the Bill, and we mig-ht have had the consolidating clauses in a separate portion. There is one good thing to be said about the Bill, and that is that it practically consolidates the land laws of Queensland in one Act. It will bring all the selections and all the pftstoral country under the Land Act of 1897, and that is a very meritorious feature of the Bill. The clauses which do not relate to the proposals for relief are not very vitrJ

and not very important. They refer to de-partmental administration and the machinery and other conditions of the 18H7 Act. :For example, under the 1884 Act a person under eighteen years of age could not take up a eelec· tion, but under the 18!17 Act a person sixteen years of age can take up a selection. A person sixteen years of age, however, cannot acquire one of the selections under the 1884 _\et which could not be taken up by a person under eighteen years of age, and this Bill enables a person sixteen years of age to acquire one of the selec-tions which could not have been taken np by a person under eighteen years of age according to the 1884 Act. 1 think it is a very good provi-sion. Another example I may give is in connec-tion with the co-operative sections. Those sections of the 1891 Act could not be taken advantage of by selectors, some of whom bad selected under the 1884 Act and some under the 18\17 Act, simply because they bad selected under different Acts. This .Bill will permit them tn take ad vantage of the co-operative sections of the Act as if they bad all selected under the 1897 Act. Another thing, the Fencing Act will apply in both cases. The 1897 Fencing- Act does not now apply to selectors who have selected under the 1894 Act on one side, as well as to those who have selected under the 1897 Act on the other side; but now the condi-tions of fencing can be applied just the same as if tbev both selected under the 1897 Act. In a number of ways this Bill consolidates our land laws. There are some few rather good pro-visions so far as selection is concerned, in the consolidation clauses ; for example, clauses 30, 31, and 32 give the Minister and the court discre-tionary power to exempt from rabbit-proof fenc-ing, and in certain cases exempt from residence and improvement conditions. Under the 1897 Act it was decided to permit any selector of a grazing farm, whos~ rent was more _than tnd who has forfeited his selection, to take up an additional area under this measure. If he had taken up 80 acres under a former Act, he will, under this measure, be allowed to sele~t up to the maximum of 320 acres. That w1l! be a good thing for a few selectors who at present are not permitted to take up agricul-tural homesteads at all. There is also rather a wise provision which says that in fut~re any agricultural farm selector who prom1ses to perform the condition of residence personally instead of by bailiff, will have priority over those who intend to fulfil the condition by bailiff only. That w>ts a very good provision adopted in the Agricultural Lands Purcha•e Act, and I am very glad to see it in this Bill. It is also provided that in cases where grazing farm selectors have, under the tender system, offered more rent than they find they can very well pay, they can, under clause 42, have their rent re-appraised. I know one selector, particularly, who took up a mountain range. \Vhat earthly idea he had in taking up that country I. do not know. It is grass-tree country, and nothmg but ridges, and l do not believe it was worth !d. an acre. He, unfortunately, offered 2d. an asre, and got it, and now it has nearly ruined hm;. He will be able to take ad vantage of th1s

1212 Land Bil'. [ASSEl\fBLY.j Land Bill.

clauRe, and I think it will be an ad vantage to him and others. [l\Ir. P. .T. LEAHY: That applies whether it i" t8nder or not.] Y es1 it applies t~ anyone, whether he take' the lana up under the tender or the ballot svstem. Having alluded to theRe clausee, I think "r have practically rnentL.med a.!lno.~t everything that is good in the Bill. I am very sorrv to see that there are so few good things in tbis Bill. The rest of the provisions I think are in most case~ objectionable. There are two prnvisions which are questionable. One is the proposal to increase tbe 1naxin1u1n area of grazing fann selections based on the amount of rent. I agree tbat in some parts of the colony it might be ad vantageou' to have a larger maximum area than that at pl"e-Ment provided-namely, 20,000 acres; but I do not quite agn~e that it is de,irable to ba>e the area upon the rental. There are many things to be considered be•ides the mere amount of rent. There i" th" que,tion of the cost of obtaining artesian water, There is the que•tion of the c•1st of fencing, and the character of the country. (:\ir. P. J. Lr•:AHY: That is taken into account in determining the rent.] Not always by :1ny means. It may be -very good grazing country which would be worth 1~d. or 2d. an acre, b11t the selector migh~ have to spend a large sum of money on obtain-ing artesian water, and tlmt question might or might not be taken into consideration when fix. ing the rent; beside,, that, there is the qnostion of proximity to population and railway. I have in my mind's eye some brigalow scrub vountry near a progressive town and railwoy, and I suppose the rental for that would not be more than ?Jd. an ncre, and yet it would be most objectionable to permit country in that particular position to be thrown open in larger maximum areas based on the rental. On the whole I think it would be muoh more advisable to hase the maximum area on the character of the countrv.

maxirnun1 with rPspect to classification. [The SECRETARY J;'OR Pt:BLIC LANDS : Section 10 reads-

Xo lease shall be granted under this part of this Act for a lcmger term than forty-two years.~

Yes I know that. I will pass over that matter for the present, but in any ca•.e I think it is most objectionable to give the Minister this power even in the interests of the h""ees them-selves.' If I were the lessee of a pastoml holding I would object to tr-e Minister having "uch power. [Mr. STOHY: You would have priority, though.] I consider that this is a ,·ery ingenious provision, fr•r last year there wa:::; a very ~trong fi"ht with regard to the very same matter, and ultimately the opposition were so strong that the Minister eliminaterl the proviRion, and now the Mini1mendment is carried it wil( pre•·ent those people from getting a twig off a tree or taking up a stick for the purpose of boiling a billy. [The SECHE'rARY t'OR PGm,rc L~NDS: I ! will explain the reason why this clause should be inserted.] I think I know the reason, but to put such a limitation in this Bill in a cnlony like Queensland, where, of necessity, there must be

' their needs; and a bargain was practically made reserving tht' resumed areas f.,r the purposes of settlement, and excluding the lessees from the parts of the holdings specifically resumed for the purposes of settlement, because it wns thought that if a manager of a lessee or a servant of a lessee was allowed to select such country, that would naturally give rise to dum-mying, and the object aimed at would be defeated. Now, it is propoeeci to do away with the restrictions altogether. \Ve have he,rd a great deal nbout the aggregation of gra>

Land Bill. [14 N OYEMBER.] Land Bill. 1213

lessee himself take up a 20,000-acre selection, but get a mortgag-e over them.] They have a his manuger, his boundary rider, and every one limited time. [The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYhnuld be sold. It three years in which to sell to some person who could not be sold within 10 miles of a navigable. is eligible to become a selector. The idea was to river, nor in areas larger than 5,000 acres. Now keep grazing farm selections in the hands of per- it is proposed to sweep away all restrictions. sons who were eligible to select. The Bill pro· As much land as can be sold the J\Iinister has vi des that the mortgagee has to sell the morte•ged , powET t,) sell in unlimited area~, ar: d to the very selection within the time fixed by the Land - water frontages of navrgable rivers. Ann there Court. vVhoBver purchases will have to fulfil : is no provision as to what he shall do with the the conditions, either by personal resider cc or 1' money. He can either dispose of it by paying by bailiff, but he need not be a person who hin,. off the deficit, or putting the whole of it into self is qualified to select, and, therefore, there is the consolidated revenue. Hitherto Parliament taken away in regard to him the maximum limit has never given a large power of selling which a person is CJUalified to select. No ptTson Crown lands unless there haa been some ce~n select above 20,000 acres. Now, when thP, special and urgent reason for it. Nothing is provision is removed hy which a mortgagee shown here thnt this is called for by any special cannot sell t any person who is not qualified tu financial necessity, or that it shall be dev(>ted to select, it enableR one person to hold as many any particular purpose. The whole thing really grazing farms as he ha" money to buy. [The means that wi•.h the new leases the Minister ha,s SEcRETABY FOB RAILWAYS: Does the fact that power to give, aggregati:Jr;: will be legalised by he ha' the right to sell give the power to the the removal of the re•trictions on dummving; other man to hold?] Of couree it d

1214 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

and the one who has been giving him advice." That opinion might be all right as applying to the conditions of Great Britain, but it certainly does not apply to the very different conditions of this country, where, when a lease expires, we do not evict the tenant, but where he is permitted to stay on until some other tenant comes in. They have torn two words out of the context, and read into them a meaning which the rest of the cuntext will not bear. The two sections of the Act of 1884 dealing with the matter are 104 and 107. The marginal note to section 104 is " Lessee's title to compensation," and that to section 107 "Compensation where payable." [:Mr. P. J. LEAHY: Marginal notes are of no account.] They are an indication of what the Legislature meant when they passed the clanses. Section 107 provides that it is only on the resnmution of an entire holding, and he is actually deprived of the U8e ol ~htj lit.iJ.d ,-,i uf the:: it.ilpLv-f-ci:'.l.J.t::u.tc, that compensation is to be awarded.

In the case of the re~umption of an entire holding, the amount a'-vardcd shall be payable \V hen the resump-tlOn takes effect. There are two cases there-the case where a lease expires, and the case where resumption of au entire holding takes place. It particularly speci-fies that when the holding is re.;umed, the cum· pensation shall immediately Le paid, and that is in contradistinction to the. other part of the sec· tion, where the les,;ee is not to be paid until he is actually deprived of the use of the land and improvements. If we are to take the reading of the counsel at home, there would be nu senee in making a contradistinction in the two cases. According to the opinion of the counsel, the meaning of this section is that when the lessee is actually deprived of the use of his holding he shsJl not receive compensation until it is actually required. However, apart from that altogether, even granting for the 'sake of argu~ ment that the coun~el's opinion is right, one of the provisions of section 104 give,3 the \vhole C

Land Bill. [14 NovEMBER.] Land Bill. 1215

largely the fault of the pastoralists themselves, because of their tendency to aggrandise themselves at the expense of the rest of the community. [Mr. CA~IEHON : 'l'hey h:>ve done it very nicely, haven't they?] In many cases they have. It is not always the unsuccessful man who has been the honest man; very often men overreach them-se! ves. Unfortunately from the very nature of the occupation, the pastoral industry is always threatened by the needs of the community in the way of progressive settlement, and no doubt there is a natural tendency on the part of the pastomlists to protect themselves. One thing we must take into consideration in a young country like this, with such a large territory and such possibilities of development and advancement, is the progress that must take place in the future, and provide for that progress. I think we owe a great deal to the grazing farmer ; and I think "the wish is father to the thought" in many cases, when it is said that grazing farming is not successful. I think in. many cases the grazing farmer is as successful as the paBtorallessee. (:\Ir. CAMERON : That's not e,aying much.] There are many other sections of the community who are ruined or nearly ruined. [.'IIr. CA~IEROI\: If the grazing farmer has been successful, why does he not pay his rent?] \Vhy does not the pastoral lessee pay his rent? [Mr. CAiiiEHOX: He has alway;; done so.] Has he paid it or have the financial institutions done it for him? Has he not been eo m pelled to go to financial institutions again and again for a,sistance? [M:r. CAiiiERON: No.] I am very glad to hear it ; at the same time I am surprised. If he has not been compelled to go to financial institutlons f

1216 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

alLhough I admit it was smaller than in former yean, no less than 2,000,000 acres of land was selected, in opite uf the drought. In normal timH we "sually have from 2,500,000 acres to 3,000,000 acres per annun, selected. :0Tow, suppose we leave out of our calculation altogether the holdings under the 1900 Act, which applies to the far \Vestern country, and calculate what area will be av«ilable for closA settlement. I say that no selection is likely to take place on lands beyovd those which come under the schedule of the 1884 Act. All we can calculate upon is the area included within the schedule of the 1884 Act. The total area of the leased por-tions and resumed areas within the schedule ::Jf the 1R84 Act is 152,000 equare miles, and suppose we get the whole of the half of the leased por-tion~ of the holdings, which we will he entitled to take under this Bill, and suppose we get all the resumed ,;rea, it will make a total area available of 125,000 square miles. 1\ow, if we reckon that in the future selection will t:1ke place at the rate at which it took place iast year, and taking 2,000,000 acres for forty-two yeare, it will give 84,000,000 acres, which, c:1.lculated into square miles, gives 131,000 re-quired for selection in forty-two years. But we have only 125,000 square miles to meet that demand, so we shall be short about 6,000 square mile~, and we have also got to consider the 26,000 Pquare miles in the Burke district which is not likely to be taken up, and 14,000 square miles in the Gregory district which is nut likely to be taken up; and the 104 holdings from which we will not be entitled to take one-half because they never carr.e under the 1886 Act-we will only be able to take one-fourth of these-and I have also calculated on the basis of this country being good country, but we know that some of it is not. There are some areas of this country which are all hrigalow scrub, "dead finish," mountainous, country, gullies, valleys, and rivers. If this Bill is passed, within a few years such an extent of country will be iocked up that the same ill-feding and prejudice and spite that ha,, existed in New Sonth \Vales will arise here. and that ought not to be allowed to arise. \Vith regard to the schedule, it does not seem to be recognised that lands on the Darling Downs ani in the Burnett can be locked up for forty-two years, and some people stood aghast when I told them thk [Mr. STORY: It the country is not good.] If the country is good for ogricultural selectiOn they will not get it; but, if it is good for grazing farm ··election, they can get it. [:\Ir. STORY: The Cilurt will deal with that matter. The Bill says "lands required for settlement."] For agricultural set,tlement. [Mr. STO!\Y: It does not say "agricultural s,t:lement".J I think it will he read that way. The restriction is to lands within the schedu.led area for which there may be a demand for agricultural set.tle-ment. I unders'and the provision with regard to first·cl ·ss country, but 1 cannot understand why lands required for grazing hrm selection shoul·l he locked up altogethAr. If lands in the second, or third, or fourth class are wanted for this form of >ett]pment, I do not think new lectses of them should be given. There is another thing. Last yenr we ha.d classification in open conrt, F:o a~ to enRure that f"!ountry which was wanted for settlement should not be locked up ; nnd I think that; in the r •se of lcmds on the Dc~rlin~ Dmvns and in the Burnett, which are ea,~ily acCE'S-Jible to the Land Cl)nrt, \Ve ~honld insist nn the cla~sitication being rnade in open court befc)re any extensions of leases are given. I would like to ask the Minister why the late Je,see of an expired lease is prohibitef! from coming under the provisions of this Bill? \Vhe.n it was first !Jroposed to give this relief, there were twenty-five

holdings for which there were existing leases, and although the matter was placed before the :Minister, it is not proposed that they can come under the provisions of this Bill. [The SECRE-TARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS : Tbey can come under section 15.] I know they can, but they will have no rights under the Bill. [The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: They will have priority.] It does not say that they shall have s,ny rights under this Bill. However, I do not wish to t•ke up too much time ; but I must say that there are some people in this colony who look at this subject entirely from the point of view of their own interests, and I am sorry to say we have some of those people in this House. It is very amusing to see the innocent way some hon. members view the proposals of this Bill. One hon_ member last night expressed the opinion that the pastoralists should have room for expansion. Now, they have alre•dy got 400,000,000 acres, hut they say that is not enough-that they want more room for expansion. They want to grab the colony. It is quite to be expected that we should hear some people expressing such views, for they are par excfllence the repre;entatives of a body which has heen agitating for extemions of leases, and of a body one of whose vital principles is that they want to block settlement. [M.r. STORY: Are you a selector?] Yes, I am. \V e must not forget that this agitation commenced when there was no drought-when we had fairly good seasons, and it has been kept up until they have been favoured by the excuse of thA drought. There is no doubt that many people have· suffered through the drought; but I do not con-sider this i" a pastoral lessees' Bill, but it is. rather a British-Australasian Associations Bill. It is asked for by British investors, who, by getting extensions of leases of t.his kind, will add millions of money to the saleable value of their holdings. I sympathise with the pastoral lessees, and, to some extent. with tbe British investors; hut I have not much sympathy with a body of men who declare themselves to he opposed to settlement, and whose m"in principle is the blocking of settlement. [Mr. FoRSYTH: \Vho said that? They sairl the very Cf.Jposite.] They said that. [Mr. FoRSYTH : They said nothing of the sort.] Here is their own statement of their princq,les-

It is a principle of the association that its membeJ·s, while organising them~clvr~ for the above purposes, rceognise the import a nee and necessity of mPasnres c;dcnlated to promote the dcYelopmeut of the Austra-lHsian colonies by the flettlement of popnL-ttion on the lands.

It is. ho\vever. claimed hy the afls.ociatinn th:1t, the progres~ of closer settlement of the population should be so conductrd as to secure that progre:-s without violent or neertless distnrl.Janr·e to previous settlement ancl u•eful enterprise.

His frankly recognised that ampk provision mugt be made for the ~wttlcment of au increasmg population on the lnnds; but il h also held that the g-radual settle-ment of the vopula.tion nnder newer conditions should be coH~Istent \\ ith due re~ard t0 prcTious settlement, without which the newel' forms of settlement would have been indellnitely delayed-if not impos.,1ible-and the progrtss of the country greBtly :·et· rded.

']_1here is a great destruction of the value of improve-ments whic11 are rendered u~eless bv the course of miscellaneous or indiscriminate setrciion-genuint or otherwise.

This points to the main factor which lies :.It the root of the pastoral trouble-viz., that the whole of the vast area of the pJst'brnl territory in Qneen--land is kept in a state of suspPnse in order to provide for what is emn-paratively, atter all, a. limited amount of bond fide selection. The whole colony is, it may be srtid, thrown~ or liable soon to be thrown. ·1nto the nleiting-pot, for an inadequate and indefinite object. Thb course violates the fundamental m1d incontrovertible :principle stnted in the constitution of the British Australasian Rociety--viz., 1' That the progress or closer settlement of 'the

La~nd Bil1. [14 NoVEMBER.] Land Bill. 1217

population should be so conducted as to secure that progress without violent or needles~ disturbance to prevwus settlement ~;,nd useful enterprise."

They have obtained a le>1se nf "portion of their holdings on the understanding tktt the remainder should be used for settlement, but they are n~n satisJied with that-they wgnt the resumed areas' also. \Vhat have they to do with the selection of the resumed are.,e? They are not theirs, and they have no right or title in them. If we allow the rhnlmed are "s to be taken up in aggrega.tions or in any other way, they h:we no right to object. This fine phrase of theirs shows that the sole object of getting extensions of lease is not to give them a tenure, but to give them the whole of the country, so that the selectors cannot take it. They ::tre not ,,hjecting to the leased portions being taken from them, because they are not being taken :tway from them. It is only the resumed areas that have been taken from them, and the outcry against aggregatian is directed against selection on the re _.umed arf'~s. [:Y!:r. FORSYTH : Last year we tried to force the resumed Doreas on the pastoral lessees, otnd they objected.] Because there wem conditions attached to it. They objected to the Minister having power to force the good and the bad on them. They were quite prepared to take the good, but they did not want to take the good ··nd the bad. [:\lr. STORY: And under this Bill the Crown reserves all the rights of resumption that it ever had.] It is strange how the Premier has gone back on the firm stand that he took abont four months ago. The condition of the colony then was not very different, and yet when the pas-toralists asked him to introdnce a new Bill giving them more generou~ terms, he distinctly told them that it did not do to go back-that the consistent policy of the country was the encour· ag-ement of closer settlement. He told them that the course they recommended would be a Y'P.l.7Al";;.:,lr..n n.f r>nli...-.,7 nY>rl 1-'hn+- ~j.- ~Tu-...~lrl l ',_.r -

tf~r~~~Y -legisl;vti~~r,' a~d~ye"t::~~ithir•Iyf~~; ~~~ti~~: we have before u,; a Bill which will lead to the locking up wholesale of our hnds. [The SECRE-TARY FOR AGRICULTCl\E: \Ve ought to be thankful to get tenants.] There will not be much trouble about that. \Ve are just now passing through one of the most terrible droughts of the century, and we are asked to pass panic legislation, view-ing the whole of the future from the stand pnint of our pre~ent dark surroundings. [ll1r. STORY: We have forty years' experienc0.] No doubt things look blacker now tlmn they will in three or four years. [Mr. FoRSYTH : How can you tell? You said that three or four years ago.]

The SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. HARDAORE: Judging by the experi-ence we have passed through, we will not have a drought for a long time. Is not all the pro-bability that within the next cix or twelve months we shall have a renewal of good seasons? We have periodical droughts, but we have also periodical good season;, and in a year or two we may expect a rapid development of settlement on our lands. Everything- points to it-the progress of science, the increased prices of stock and of wool. I believe that we will llfwer have a drought that will be so disastrOtlS --[Mr. FoRSYTH : How un you tell?]

The SPEAKER: Order! I hope hon. mem-bers will respect my call to order.

Mr. HARDACRE : As the colony develops-as railway communication develop.;-there will be means of getting the stock away from drought-stricken districts, and, besides th'1t, we are going in for the conserva~ion of water. The lessons we have learnt from thiq drought will be availed of in the future. New foclders are being introduced, and in many ways it is not likely

1902-4E'

that any future drought will be as s~vere as the present one. Besides that, we shall have a growing population, and that, in itself, will lead to more settkment. [Mr. Me MASTER : Y on object to the populaticon coming.] I am now fighting for room for thdm. I am always reminded thut the Darling Downs squatters, many years ago, said that there never could be anv settlement there. I have every sympathy with t!:ie pastoral lessees,

men who were once in affluence and [8 ·30 p. m.] comfort, a.nil who to-day are almost

ruined. I desire to assist them, and a reasonable way to do so would be to give them a twenty-one years' lease all r.mnd, with perhaps seven years extra to those who come under the fencing conditions. That would have given them even more than they have asked for. I have n1_-"ver n1et a pastoral lessee who reqnired more than a twenty-one years' lease. Even yet I have not made up my mind as to the way I shall vote on the second reading of this Bill. On the one hand I recognise the desperate nature of the calamity that has befallen the pastomlists, and the appalling results which will result if we do not give them some relief; and, on the other hand, I recognise the appalling evils which the Bill will entail on the future of the colony if it i" carried as it is at the present time. •

:Wr LINDLEY (Wide Bay): We hav~o heard a good deal about the way this Bill will affect the \Vestern portion of Queensland. I propose, as clearly as I ttm able, to give my opinion upon it with reg-ard to the Eastern portion. The hon. member for Balonne said the principle of our land laws should he the further inland the longer the leasP. That is a very good principle, and I am sorry it ha" not been introduced into this Bill. I would give very long le:;ses in the \Vest. I :dmll oppose any lease longer than fiftc,en ye:ll'B in the coastal dist.rict~, \V here mnre land is being ,, mstanLly requirecl fur closer settlement. Iu tb.; a.::;}i.:;\1u_~,.;:l Lct=:-a., Gt·furt' any ruu, no rnat.ter .what class of country it is, is granted a ne\v lease, it

1218 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

settled districts will be 2,500 acres first cJa,s, .5,000 acres second class, and 7,000 acres third class. The one great danger I see in the Bill is the liability of the lands in the settled districts to acquire a lease of forty-two ye:1rs, which would be highly detrimental to the public interests. I do not care what the quality of the land is. I would not give a forty-tw0 years' lease even for those swamp lands which have been long unoccupied, but of which we have realised the benefit during the last few months. Another feature of the Bill, which appears to me objectionable, is that enabling grazing farmers to acquire freehold. I am not, of course, referring to those in the \V estern districts. I am speaking of cattle country where grazing farms were granted under the 1884 Act. The land then taken up was just outside the fringe of setthement, and was not immediately required for agricultural farm settlement. The leases were for thirty or thirty-eight years, and it was said that when those leases fell in the land would be available for the natural expamion of settle-ment. What has been the result ? Those men got exceptionally good terms, often paying only !}!d. or ll,d. an acre for land right alongside the holdings of men who had selected under the 188fi Act, and who were paying 10s. an acre. Owing to the very liberal terms on which they were granted their land, the grazing farmers have been able to compete so su~cessfully against the other selectors that they are now practically bosses of the situation. The grazing farmers in the inside districts have been actually making more money than the pastoralists on whose runs they selected. That land will be required in the near future for closer settlement, and I am very much opposed to the provision which allows the inside grazing farmers- I am not speaking of the outside grazing farmers at all-to acquire their holdings as freeholds, unless the land is thrown open to selection, and the public of r~ueensland have an opportunity of competing for them when they are offered. Grazing farmers have been allowed to take up 5,000 or 10,000 acres ; the improvements which they have made on their holdings are sc9,nty and have been cheaply effected; they have the benefit nf a low rent, and they have nnt been compelled to reside on their holdings. 'J'he1,280-acre men, however, have been circumscribed in the area which they may select, and they have paid a very much higher rent. [The SECRETARY J;'OR PUBLIC LANDS : They are paying the purchasing money, not rent.] The bulk of the agricultural farmer" have no hope of ever acquiring the free-hold of their selections. The homestead men should bple in the Western districts. I regret that I am forced

into this position, but I have to consider the interests of the people whom I represent, and who are every bit as much Yalue to the State as the big landholders. The effect of this provision would be that in the Burnett dis-trict every grazing farm that is suitable for agriculturalsettlementwould be lost to the public. It would be taken up immediately without very much hesitation, and that is why I say it will be a very great mistake to pass this pro-vision. I hope that, if the Bill goes through, a provision will be inserted in it which will remove the settled districts from the operation of this clause. During the course of this debate I heard some hon. member remark that we are in favour of selling land, and that when opportunity offers we object to it. I cert.,inly am in favour of selling land, provided it is offered in blocks of a reasonable area, and is situated in places where people are likely to buy it. There is a great deal of land irom Brisbane to Cape York which could be offered at auction, and for which a decent price could be obtained ; and it would be far better to adopt a policy of that kind, instead of selling land in 5,000 or 10,000-acre blocks, at 10s. an acre. When the Lands Department determine to throw l:tnd open to selection there is very often a haphazard, happy-go-lucky sort of method adoptPd in classifying it. Very often it is not even inspected, and it is cut up into 160-acre and 320-acre blocks, and offered as homesteads ; and to compel a poor unfortunate selector to eke out an existence on that land as a homestea,d is almost a criminal act. In the same way land is offered for agricultural settlement which is not fit for that purpose, because it probably does not contain an acre of agri-cultural land. It should be classed as grazing country. If a proper classification were adopted it would prevent a great deal of the misfortune which happens to settlers. I know it may be said that people will apply for these lands, but I contend that they should not be thrown open, and that the people should not be encouraged to take up inferior land for agricultural purposes. There is a clause in this Bill which provides that a selector or owner of any freehold in Queen8land may take up a con-tiguous homestead, and perform the conditions of residence on the freehold block. If that is a good prmciple, I submit that it can be extended in a very great degree. I wouid ask the House to consider the case of men who-say, twenty or thirtvyearsago-took up 160 acres in places on the coast". Settlement has gone on there, their busi-has prospered, and they have now been hemmed in until there is not an available acre ofland any-where within five or six miles of their holdings. As those men have proved themselves good colonists, and brought their farms to something like a paying basis, they should be allowed to acquire another block of land and perform the residence conditions on their own homesteads. One provision that will be appreciated by home-Bte~d selectors is that which will allow them to sell firewood off their land before the five years are up. I have indkated seyeral amendments, and I hope they will be taken up by other hon. members. I cannot under any circumstances ,,npport the carrying of this Bill, unless the Eastern parts of the colony are exempted from the long leases and from the provision which allows t.he grazing farmer to acquire the free-hold. I think that will act mo:;t unfairly with reg-ard to the people most interested in the land -dairymen and selecto'"-who are anxious to increase their holdings and improve their busi-ness. Land, when granted as grazing farms, was granted with the idea that when the leases fell in it would be available for agricultural settle-ment; and if this Bill is passed as it stands it

Land Bill. [14 NovEMRER.] Lanrl Bill. 1219

will defeses that will take place more particularly in my own electorate, and will endeavour to show the effect on that portion of the colony. The hon. member for Wide Bay said there was no interest in the Bill for the people he represented, but there is in the Bill a good deal for the interest-mongers-the financial institutions. The classification under this Bill is scandalous. It gives an extension of lease of the best Western lands until 1934 up to 1942, which will completely block settlement in and around the 'arious townships. I have a list of the stations in the electorate I represent. Barcaldine Downs and Home Creek are situated near Barcaldine township, and the land is good sheep country. The lease of Barcn,ldine Downs will expire on the 30th June, l!l14, and under Class II., which is the lowest classification they can get, that station will get an extension of twenty-one years, bringing tbe term up to l!J3f:>. The lessees of Barcaldine Downs and Home Creek will get that extension under the !o west classification, and if, in the opinion of the Land Comt, the land should not be clasAified under the second cla,s, but put under the third class, they will get an extension oftwenty.eight years insteod of twenty. one years. We have Northampton Downs, Terrick Terrick, Lorne, Malvern Hills, Avington, Isis Downs,

Portland Downs, Alice Downs, .,,ll [9 p.m.] stationswhicharetheverypickofthe

Western country of Q•1eensland-the very pick of the sheep country. Their present leases will not expire until31Rt December, 1913. If they get an extension of twenty-one years, which they are bound to get under this Bill, the leases will extend to 1934. \Vill anv sane man in this Assembly tell me that he can form any opinion of what will be the state nf thi" wlony in 1934? [Mr. CAii!ERON: \Ve will be all dead.] We m'1J' be all dead, hut we may do something while alive to make those who follow us regret that we ever lived. \Vith the opportunity that we have we ought to make some endeavour to conserve the rights of the people. I have had the privilege of living in the \Vestern district of Queensland for something like twenty-six Yf'ars. I can rernember when there was no township beyond Dingo on the Central Hail way, which is only 90 miles from Rockharnpton, yet to-day we have brge township,; like Barcaldine and Long-reach, which have sprung into existence within the short period of less than twenty years. [Mr. CAMERON : A very miserctble exist-ence.] I tell the hon. gentleman that there are any number of people in Barcaldine who are in very favourable circumstances, notwithstanding the drought ani! the bad seasons. If we lock up these lands until 1934, it is going to have an effect that we cannot possibly calculate, and I

claim that we are now being asked to con-sider panic legislation. A great deal has been said about the losses of the pastoralists. A great deal has been said about what they have suffered and lost; but have not the bnRiness people. the working people, and the people who are living- in that district, suffered equally as the men who hold big lease" in that portion of the colony? [Mr. C_\MERON: One thing follows the other.] That naturally leads me on in my argument. One thing mnst follow the other. The pro;,perity that prevailed some years ago in that district was the result of the resumptions that took place under the 1884 and 1886 Acts. If this Bill is carried in its pre,ent form, it is going to have an effect that the people will deeply regret in years that are to come. These are not the largest extensions that are going to take place in the Barcoo elec-torate by any means. \V e have \V

1220 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

which expires at the so.me time a•• Ruthven. Then we ha,·e V1arbreccan-one of the largest stations in the Central district; I believe it is one of the largest stations in Qmensland. Its lease expires on 30th .J tme, 1921, and with the extension it will expire in l!l42-~exactly forty year.< from now. I' that the legislation which the Lands Department and the Government have been hatching for several months-that they will giveJtationslike \Varbreccan forty yeanofalease? The rai!w:1y from Dc-rtmouth-an extension of the Central Railway-which passed this Hnuse two sessi.>ns Rgo, would go out throug-h mrmy of the stations I have mentioned-Wellshot, a small porti,-n ·of \V estland, Portland DO\vns, and on to Bimerab, and then on close up to vVarbreccan country. Then we have Emmett Downs, the present leas? of which expires in 1921, and with the extension it will expire in 19-12. It is good sheep country. At the Land Court which was held a short time agll, evidence was given that a good portion of Emmett Downs was equal to the lands on Is is Downs, and anyone who has been on Isis Downs knows the quality of the land there, and thrtt land will be luckd up. Then we have \V estland, the lease of w~ich will expire on the 30th June, 1H20, and with the extension it will expire in 1\!41-it will have thirty-nine years to run. Then it must be remembered that \V estland is a station which is situated within 30 miles or so of Longreach, the largest township in the Central d1strict, and here we have it proposed to lock up this good sheep country for all these years. Land within 35, or 50, or 60, or 70 milt's of a railway,. I say is within reasonable distance of a market to which men can send their wool or other produce. When I was living at Ta.mbo, I and others were unab1e to g-et grazing farm land near Tambo, because the land there was all locked up and we were compelled to go 150 miles from L~ngreach, d.,wn the Tbomson Hiver on the resumed portion of \V arbrecr:m in order to take up land-we could not get land near a railway. Talk about aiding and helping tl,(_, small men~ this Bill will n;)t do that. ! It will not lead, if it is passed, to settling one more \JPl'son on these lands than there are there at present; and yet we are asked to vote for this Bill. I think this measurP will require a terrible lot of nmending in committee. [Mr. Dur>t'll!'ORD: If ir. ever gets that far.] Now, it has been pointed out that there is a large quantity of land open for t·esumption, but what has been the result.? The hon. member for North Brisbane knows Portland Downs very well and what class of countrv it is; and, with the excop-tion of 800 acres, the Portland Downs Pastoral Company have taken up the whole of the re-sumption" there. [J\1r. 0AMERON: I w:t" not aware of that.] They have; and only a fort-night ago there was another quantity of land on Portla.nrl Downs 1 mt up .>nd sole! in Queen street. vVhat chance will the people residing in the Isisford township have of taking up selections on Portland Downs? None at all. Then we have Bimerah; ~,nd I think the hon. member for N ort.h Brisbane will agree with me that Bimerah ie good sheep country. [J'vir. CAMERON: Oh, yes.] Bimerah is very expensive coun-trv and would be very exr-ens1ve country for' a man to take up a small qu"ntity of. 'fhe deepest bore in Queensland-nver 5,000 feet-is on Bimerah. There are portions of the run which have natural water. There are la1·ge areas of purchased land on Bimerah. I rem em her the late member for Rockhampton, Mr. Curtis, with several other members of this Chamber and myself, interviewing the Secretary for Lands when the portions which the lessees have JJUr-chased were thrown open. We a, ked the Minister to withdBw them from sale, and gave our reasons. I stated that the lands they were

throwing open were the key of the position in regard to the natural water, and, if they were sold, it would block selection ou the whole of the resumed portion of even such a large run as that. Yeo we have the Secret3ry f,,r Lands asking ns to as-iBt him in placing this mea -;;ure on the statute-book~ J, i.s Downs:, Lnrne, Northampton Downs, and lVIaneroo all have fair portions of purchased conntry. I refer to these purcha.:;;es on resumptinns, because it has been stated on the fluor of this Home that there is any anwunt of land available for clo~er settle1nent on the resumed areas and the portions that are to be resumed. I challenge the hon. members who make that statement to say that there is any land avJilable on Port.land Downs. I chal-lenge them to say that there is any land available on Bimerah that people would take up on account of the water difficulty. It is a well-known fact that, taking into considera-tion the distance of Bimerah from the rail-way, and the expense of putting down an arte;;ian bore, it would not pay a n1an to take up a 20,000-acre selection on that station. The reappraisement of rents is dealt with in the Bill. Hnn. members who have any knowledge of the \Vestern districts and of the proceedings of the Land Court will know that there is a great deal of expense in connectiions which they never thought they would get, because there is only one pastoralist whom any of the Labour members ever got-, to expref:s an opinion as to what extension he was prepared to accept. That is a gentleman who is well known in Melbourne, and who holds a good cleal of interest in the Winton district~Mr. Jowett. Mr.

Lancl Bill. [14 NoVEMBER.] Lancl Bill. 1221

J owett distinctly told the hon. member for Gregory, when asked what lense he would be

prepared to accept, that he would be [9•30 p.m.] prevared to accept a twenty-one

years'leasefor one-half of the country he held at the present tirr:e, and allow one·half to be resumed. ['fhe SECRETARY VOR AGRICULTURE: Perhaps the Land Court may not allow him even that.] From what I have seen of the recommen-dations of tlle Land Court and the view t.hey have taken of the re-asseasment of rents lately on certain runs I know, they are treating the pastonl lessRes very fa vonrably. Does the Minister for Lands think this clause 13 will be enforced? The conditions are ridiculous and will never be enforced against the large lessees or companies. All h

1222 Land Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

any particular plrpose, as it was under the Special Sales of Land Act. Why should this House give the Government power to sell un-limited quantities of the public estate without any control whatever? As soon as they get the extension of leases there will be any amount of buyera. I wish now to refer to a matter that has been brought up in this House from time to time, and on which the hon. member for Dalhy moved a motion on one occasion. The hori. member moved that the time had arrived when the aggregation of grazing selections should be checked and inquiry instituted int0 the position of those selectors whose good faith was open to doubt. That motion was carried. Here is an evil which is known to exist. [The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA'S"D8: Stated to exi,t.) It is a welf-known fact that it does exist. The aggre-gatiOn has taken place, a!J(l I think after the motion of the hnn. memhht· for Dalhv was passed, the Governrnent, in bringing down"' a. npw Land Bill, should have dealt with the matter, but they have no~ done so. [Mr. Km;;'roN: If it is said to exisr, why not find out the truth?] [The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : So far as any information we have is concerned, it exi:::.ts only in people's irnagination. The co~operative principle exists, but it would be a very ·difficult thmg to prove that dummying exists.] It may exist in people's imagination; but I rttn certain that if the Government wanted to find out, und sent an officer out to make inquiries, they would find 1t really does exist. 'rhe hem. member for North Brisbane admitted that aggregation had taken place. [An honourable membAr: Perhaps the hon. member is"" aggregator.] [Mr. C.U!ERON: I and my sons have got nothing together.] I will sav that the hon. member for North Bris-bane has never been charged with being an aggregator. The hon. member for Dalby pointed mlt that .some steps should be taken to stop the aggregat~"':' that .has been _going- on in the past. If the Mlmster will not believe the bon. member for Barcoo, surely he will believe the hon. member for ""'orth Brisbane that ao-gregations have been going on. [The SECR~TARY FOR PuBLIC LAKDS: It depends on what you call aggregation.] [The SECRETARY J;'OR AGlUOl;L-TURE : It may be called family settlement.] \V e may talk of one family one settlement but under this Bill it is going to be one finO:ncial institution one State. The aggre~ation, as the hon. member for Leichhardt pointed out is going to be intensified under this BilL Pre-viously. the mortgagee could only transfer to " qualified selector, but under this Bill he could transfer to a man not qualified to hold a selection. [The SECRETARY FOR PUBLH' LANDS : You are quite wrong.] I have gone over the Bill and over the Act.e, and I feel sure that a majority of hon. members reading the clause would say that a man is not required to hold any qualification as a selector to be a person to whom a farm can be transferred. The mortgagee can transfer any number of selections, and form aggregations and work them without any conditions. [The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: You are quite wrong.] \V ill the Minister e·xplain why the section which

was in the other Act is left out, [10 p.m.] providing that the person to whom

it is sold must be qualified to select? [The SECRE'£ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Under the other clause it was doubtful whether the perso~1 who went into possession was not reqmred to be a person qualified to select.] It was distinctly stated in the other Act that the per.~on whom the mort-gage was transferred to should be qualified to select.

The SPEAKER: I hope hon. members will not enter into a committee discussion.

:M:r. KERR : Sometime' a slight discussion on a matter of this kind mav save a. lot of dis-cussion afterwards in committee. There is a provision under the grazing farm portion of the Biil for allowing increased areas on the r(·ntal ba,is. I may say that I do not favour that sy ;tem of granting increased are\ts. , I quire believe that there should be increased areas. There is a 20,000-acre grazing farm in my mind's eye, situated in the Barcoo, that I would sooner hold than a 40,000-acre select.ion in another place. There are many 15,000 and 12,500-acre selections which have a larger carry-ing capac1ty than 20,000-acre selections. I certainly think that as under this Bill the classification of the pastoral holdings takes place by the Land Court, who consider the quality of the land, its adaptability for carrying purposes, the natural v. ater, and its closenPS to railway communication-they might also considtr at tbe same time the classification of the resumed portion of the runs. Though some persons make the statement that tbe resumed portions are not of the same quality as the leased nortions, yet I believe on the whole they ~re of the oame average quality. There med to be a little difference when the first resump-tions were made, but I do not think there is the same ground of complaint with regard to the latter resnmptions. For that reawn I think it would have been much better if the Minister had made jJrovision for the Land Court classifying the re,umed portions when they bad the whole of the information in their hand", and were in a position to say w bether tbP land should be thrown open into 20,000, 30,000, 40,000, 50,000, or 60,000-acre selections. On the rental basis of £125, 60,000 acre'' could be taken up at ~d. per acre. 'Would it nut ~e much better for the hon. gentleman to make h1s Bill uniform, and in substitution of the rental basis allow the whole of the classification to be made by the Land Court? I do not think it would take too great a time. [The SECRETAHY FOR PGBLIC LA:"'IJS : I am not wedded to the clause.] You must remember that the ma.n who takes up land at ~rl. an acre will have about three times a~ much fencing as the man who takes up 20,000 acres of good grazing country, which may have a carrying capacity uearly equal to 60,000 acres. [:Mr. STORY: Is a man not better off with GO,OOO acres of modera.te land tha.n with 20,000 acres of moderate land?] Yes; but he will not he allowed to get any more of the good land. The attention of the Minister was drawn to the fact that a person paying 1~d. per acre would only get 20,000 acres; paying 1~d. per acre, he would only get a little over 17,000 acres; paying 2d. per acre, he would onlv get 15,000 acres; and paying 2~d. per acre, he would onl~ get 12,00(} acres, hut I understood from the Mimster, when moving the second readin~, that it was not in-tended to reduce the area of grazing farms below 20,000 acres, whatever the rental. [The SEORE· TARY I

Land Bill. [18 NovEMBER.] Interior Railtva,ys. 1223

colony. I think th.c: hon. member for North Brisbane will bear me out when I say that by the judicious selection of the applicants the land commissioner, or whoever waR in charge' of the ballot, could have drafted out a large number of applicants who harrying capacity of the Mitchell, \Varrego, JYiaranoa, or the other districts he mentioned, for I have not the proper information at hand. But it was stated at Blackall, at the Land Court held there in 1893, on sworn testimony, that there was a grazing farm at Northampton that carried one sheep to 2 acres, and had been doing that for some t1m~. I want to sav here that in many places lOO acres would not carry one sheep in th.e present condition of affairs; but our pr~sent con-dition is abnormal. Under normal t:onditions, I think 3 acres in the Mitchell dietrict will carry one sheep. [Mr. CAMERON : That is not my experience, and it is long-er than yonrs.] I am quite prepared to g-ive a measure of relief to the pastor.>! lessees and to the g-razing farmers, to give them reasonable terms; but l wish to point out that last session the hon. member for North Brisbane said that they would be content with extensions to twenty-one yearo. [Mr. CA1JERoN: They have been pretty well ruined since then.] While I am prepared to do this, I cannot forget that I am a representative of a number of people who sent me here, and who have snffered equally with the pastoralists-I refer to business men, and some of them have been ruined. They cann