Legislative Assembly FRIDAY SEPTEMBER

Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 23 SEPTEMBER 1921

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

888 Anzac Day Bill. [ASSEMBLY.) Questions.

FRIDAY, 23 SEPTEMBER, 1921.

The SPEAKER (Hon. W. Bertram, Maree) tcok the chair at half-past 3 o'clock p.m.

QUESTIONS.

EXPENDITURE ON RAILWAY ENGINE-SHEDS, W!LLOWBURN.

Mr. T. R . ROBERTS (East Too woornba) asked the Secretary for Railways-

" 1. vVhat is the amount spent to date o n account of new engine sheds. 'Villowburn, Toowoomba-(u) const ruction work, (b) resumption claims?

" 2. What is the number and a mount of resumption claims not yet settled?

"3. vVhat are the prospects of an early resumpti~n of work?" ·

The HON. W . FORGAN SMITH, in the absence of the Secretary for R a ilways (Hon. J . Larcombe, Keppel), r eplied-

" 1. (a) Information wi!l be furnished in the Commissioner's annual report, (b) £3,935.

" 2. Four claims, totalling £3,802 l~s. "3. I regrefr that the hon. gentleman's

thirst for information on this point cannot at present be assuaged."

COMPL.~IKT IN RE ACCURACY OF PRESS PARLIAMENTARY REPORTS.

Mr. CORSER (Burnett) asked .the Home Secretary-

" Will he state specifically the interjections which he complained on Friday were faked by the Press for propaganda purposes, and will he state a'l rn, in view of his d isinclination to mention the name of any one paper, whether the ' Daily Standard ' was thB offending journal ? "

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. W . McCormack, Cairns) r eplied-

" R eply will be found in yesterday's ' Hansard.' "

Questions. (23 SEPTEMBER.] Questions. 889

REVISION OF ELECTORAL RoLLe. Mr. 'I'. R. ROBERTS (East Toowoom ba)

aske<l the Attorney-General-" 1. Has he read the following para

graph appearing on page 6 of Thursday's issue of the ' Brisbane Courier,' headed-

' ELECTORAL GHOSTS. '1,610 AT ROCKHAMPTON.

' In accordance with the provisions of the Act, notices were sent out to those who did not vote at the recent elections, and in the case of the cit.y council 4,800 were posted at a cost of £40. R eplies were received from 1. 713, and 1 610 letters were returned through the D·ead Letter Office. ' "2. Will he bring this under the not ice

of the Principal' Electoral Officer, with a view to a clean roll being issued of the new electora l districts under the red istribution?"

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. J. Mulla_n, Flinders) replied-

" 1. Yes. '. ' 2.- The fact that 1,610 letters wcr~

re,turne<l through the Dea-d Letter Office is no evidence that all the names of th e electors represented thereby should be removed from the rolls. As a matter of fact, considerably more than h alf t hat number has been r emoved since the 31st March, and it must not be presumed that the names of the balance should be summarily removed simply because the electors were not at the addresses to which notices were sent. The R ockhampton City Council area takes in • practically the whole of the Rockhampton and Fitzroy electorates and p cort of tho Keppel electorate; and it is, thBre;ore, reasonable to assume that from such a large tota l enrolment a considerable number of eledors would be ab~e-nt, but temporary absence is not a sufficient ground for removing names from the Stato roll."

COS'r OF .FENCING, ETC., ROMA HIGH SCHOOL.

Mr. MORGAN (Murilla ) asked the Secretary for Public Works-

" 1. \Vhat was the cost of material, supervi•ion, and erection of the split paling fences on the three &ides of the High Scheol hnd at Roma?

"2. \Vhat was the cost of m aterial , supervision, and erection of the sawn palbg picket fenca on the remaining side of the High School land a t Roma?

"3. W hat monny has been spent in supplying loam to fill up depressions on the H igh School land a t Roma?"

HoN. W. FORGAN SMITH (.llackay ) replied- ·

" 1 and 2. :?201 17s. 9d. "3. £35_,,. ·

PRICES OF BEEF AND MUTTON, BRISBANE. Mr. FLETCHER (Port Curtis) asked the

Minister in Charge of State Enterprises-" Jn view of the answers g iven to my

questi:m yesterday- ' " 1. Is it a fact t.hat the following

approximate prices for cattle and sheep ruled at Enoggera yards on the <lates given below, while the prices at the . State shops in Brisbane for the prin-

cipal cute. of beef an<l mutton on the same dates were as follow, an<l that they show the percentage in decline in prices as also given below:-

AT NEWMARKJ<:T.

s. d. (')attle. per 100 lb. 4!l 0 Mutton, per lb. 0 5t

s d 43 6 0 5t

tAT 8TATI<: !:'HOPS.

s. d. 21 () 0 3j

\'f~rch, Decn n- Septem-1918 ber, ber,

H2t•. 1921.

'· d. s. If. ·' · If_ Rib Roast. per lb. 0 5? 0 4.; }, 11mµ Ste11k , 1JE:r " j ~- 0 9~ 0 81

lb. Corned Rounr 0 5li 0 6t 0 6

per lb. , Legs of Mutton , 0 0 9 0

l-'er 1h. Shoulders o! Mui-- 0 4i 0 o~ 0 5

ton, per lb. Chops, per lb ... . 0 0 9 0

% 108 60

% ·20 ·12

·os ·2~

-10

·2s

" 2. I s it a fact that the decline in cattle at Enoggera in September, 1921, was about 160 per cent. lower than in September, 1920, and mutton 110 per cent. lower, while retail prices in the State shops in Brisbane were about t.he same, as stated in Question No. 1, showing equivalent declines in prices of only about 20 per cent.?"

HON. W . FORGAN SMITH replie.d-" l. The prices of cattle and sheep at'

Enoggera and of the various cuts o·f beef and m utton at the State shops submitted by the hon. member are anproximat ely correct . His percentages of the decline in prices 1920-1921 are, however , totally incorrect. Instead of 108 p er cent., the <lecline in cattle values is only 52 per cent.; instead of 60 per cent. , the decline !n sheep values is only 36 pP.r cent.; rnste:i.d of .20 per cent., the reduction in rib roast p rices per lb. is 18 per cent. ; instead of .12 per cent., t he reduction in rump steak prices per lb. is 10.5 per cent. ; instead of .08 per cent., the reduction in corned round prices per lb. is 8 per cent. ; instead of .28- per cent .. the reduction in legs of mutton prices per lb. is 22 per cent. ; instead of :10 per cent., the reduction m shoulders of ~nutton pr ices per lb. is 9 per cent. ; mstead of .28 per cent .. the reduction in chops prices per lb. is 22 per cent. The hon. m·ember 's questions mislead the liouse by compar ing the decline in the prices ? f cattle and sheep with the reductions m the .retail shop prices without taking into consid eration the decline in the value of the b:y-products-hides, tallow etc. When this is <lone, he will find th~t the r eduction in the State shop prices is in

890 Questions. fASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanations.

a direct ratio to the decline in the cost of the meat.

"2. His percentages in this question are again absurdly incorrect. As previously stated, the State shop retail prices have been reduced in conformity with tho reduction in the pri'ces of the meat - that is, excluding the by-products. f I

would point out to the hon. member that the percentages of decline in prices 1920-1921 submotted in these questions reveal his lamentable ignorance of an element"ry knowledge of arithmetic. For the benefit and instruction of the hon. member, and so that he may not in future fall into grievous error, I lay on the table of the ' House ' Longmans' Mental and Practical Arithmetic Exercises with Answers.' as supplied by the Department of P.ublic Instruction."

(Government laughter.)

REGULATIONS UNDER DAIRY PRODUCE ACT.

Mr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay) asked the Secretary for Agriculture- ·

"Jn. view of the excessive cost of material ~-nd heavy expense that will be incurred by many dairymen through the issue of the new regulations under the Dairy Produce Act of 1920, will he cause instructions to be issued to all dairy impoctors to proceed in a manner that will not inflict hardship or inco11-venience on those concerned?"

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. W. N. Gillies, Eacham) replied-

" lnstructio11g for the guidance of inspectors are now being formulated with_ a view to bringing about the neces'. sary reforms in the mdustry with as little inconvenience to individual dairymen as possible. I would add, however, that the reforms aimed at under the Act are more than ever necessary if Queensland ,expects to maintain a reputable position for her dairy products in the world's market."

APPRECIATION OF SERVICES OF PRIME MINISTER OF CoMll!ONWEALTH ·AT fJOMINION CONFERENCE.

Mr.· KERR (Ji:noggera), without notice asked the Premier- '

" Has any appropriate message, on behalf .of the State of Queensland, been transmitted to the Prime Mini .ter of Australia (Mr. Hughes) for the great work accomplished by him at the Dominion Conference. If not, will ne give consideration thereto."

The PRE.MIER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoe): No mesrnge has been sent or is in course of preparation. If the hon. member will indicate what he considers to be an appropriate message, I will consider it.

B UBONIC PLAGUE-DISTRIBUTION OF RAT POISON.

Mr. GREEN _.(To wnsville), without notice, asked the Home Secretary-

" 1. In view of the p03sible spread of bubonic plague, will he see that the necessary poison is made availab e for free distribution . by the local authorities in those localities where contagion is likely?

" 2. Upon the first outbreak of the plague were the local authorities in the

metropolitan area immediately advised rn that a preventive campaign could b~ inaugurated? If so, were other local autli'orities where an outbreak was likely similarly advi,ed? Did all advised immediately fulfil their obligation in this direction ? ·

"3. Have all local authorities regularly supplied ra.t smears to tlie D ?partment of Health for close examination '?"

The HOME SECRETARY replied: The hon. gentleman might have had the courtesy to show me the question that he ha3 just asked without not ice. The local authcrities were called together icnmediately a suspicious ca~e developed in Brisbane, and the local authorities in the seaports throughout Queensland were also apprised of the fact, and a rat campaign was comme1'ced. · These campqigns • re in the courne of operation in Townsville, Cairns, Rockhampton, .Maryborough, and all the coast'tl towns at the

. present moment. The Health Department is supplying poirnn to local authonties at cost price. Any private individual who requires

.,poirn< c•n secure it without paying for it at 1he Health Department, Brisbane. The hon. gentleman will recognise that it will be some tine before a supply of poison can reach Townsvil!e or Cairm. I might a 'so inform him that an infected rat has beeci found on the Cairm wharves as well as at Townsville.

.Mr. GREEN : What about the rat smears?

The HOME SECRETARY: With regard to that, the coastal towns in North Que·ensland, and down to Brisbane, have been sending smears to the Health Dep artment for several years past, but, unfortunately, the Brisbane local authorities have neglected their duty in that regard.

PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS. Mr. W. COOPER (Rosewood) : Mr.

Speaker,-! desire to make a personal explanation.

The SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. member for Rosewood be allowed to make a personal explanation?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear. he•.r ' Mr. W. COOPER : .On Tuesday last I

received a wire from a relative of mine in the Nanango electorate, te:ling me t hat one of my near relatives had met with a very serious accident, and that there was very little hope held out of her recovery. Every member of this Chamber knows that it is almost impo~sible for a member on the Government side of the House to leave the Chamber at the present time without a certain amount of danger, and I took the precaution to see if it was possible for me to get a member of the Opposition to pair. I happened by good fortune to meet the hon.

- member for East Toowoomba in the Chamber, and I asked him whether, in the event · of my being unable to get the hon. member for Nanango to pair with me, he would endeavour to get me a pair from the .National side. I am very pleased and thankful tosay that that hon. member told me distinctly that, if I could not get the hon. m ember for Nanango to pair with me, he would pair with me himself. The reason why I asked the i1on. member for Nanango to pair with me was because my relat:ves were electQrs in his electorate, and I came to the conclu-

. sion that it was only an honourable thing on my part to give him the first opportunity.

Personal Explanations. [23 SEPTEMBER.] Judges' Retirement Bill. 891

I had an interview with the Secretary for Railways, and he advised me to go down to the Railway Commissioner's Office and find out what cond:tion my sister was in. On the way down I met the hon. member for Nanango, and said to him, "You are just exactly the man I wis.h to meet. I want you to pair with me. "Well," h!" sai~, "we have an honourable understanding m our narty that we pair with no one or give a w;itten ~uar~ntee that we will p air." I said, "I thmk that, after you have read this wire, you will alter your mind." I handed him the wire, and at the same time added, " If you do not pair with me, it will be Lho worst domned d ay's work you ever did in your life."

An OPPOSITION MEMBER: That was a threat. Mr. W. COOPER: After rea-ding the wire,

the hon. member said, " We can manage that ; I will pair with you."

Mr. EDWARDS: No. Tell the truth. Mr. W. COOPER: I am telling the truth.

The hon. member made that stat\3ment. The l1on. member for Wide Bay, Mr. Clayton, was there, and he said, "You surely can take his word. We will get you a pair, and Mr. Edwards will pair with you.'

Mr. CLAYTON : That is not correct.

Mr. W. COOPER: That is correct. I h ave no reason to come here and m ak e a st atement that is not true. I went down to the Commissioner' s office, and found that the patient was in a serious condition. When I was coming back I met the leader of the Opposition underneath the veranda of the Belle Vue Hotel, and I told him that t he hon. member for Nanango had agreed to pair with me, and I gave him the reason, and he said, "I have no objection to the hon. member . fo r Nanango pairing with you."

Mr. VOWLES: That is not correct.

Mr. W. COOPER : That is true. It is an ab8olute fact, and no one knows that better than the hon. member. I am not here t0 make any false statements.

Mr. VOWLES : I told you there would be someone absent.

M r. W . COOPER : I know what the hon. member told me. I came up to the House and endeavoured to get the hon . member for Queenton, the whip of this par ty, but unfortunately I could not find him at once. The time was going on, and the train left at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. When I found the hon. member for Queenton, I said, " Take this wire a nd go to the Premier and assure him that this is a genuine case." On account of the insinuations and innuendoe~ that have been cast at me by the Press I thought I had a right to safeguard my position.

Govi:RNMENT M•:~rnERS: H ear, h ear! Mr. W. COOPER: The hon. member for

Queenton told me he had interviewed the Premier, and that the Premier ha·d said, " There is no fear; the hon. member for R osewood can go.'' The hon. member a dded, "But I will safeguard you by going in and interviewing the leader of the Opposition." I · s'tood at the door of the leader -of the Opposition's room, and, when the hon. member for Queenton came out, he ·said, "Mr . Vowles has assured me that, if Mr. Edwards does not pair with you, he will.'' ·

· Mr. VOWLES: That is rot.

Mr. W. COOPER: Those were the hon. member' s words. I have not had a 'J interview with t he hon. member fo r Queenton since I returned. I immediate·y took steps to secure a berth in a carriage for Nana.ngo, and I went away. The firot thing I heard when I returned was that I had te--n fooled in this H ouse by a man who had given me his word that he would net do so.

GOVERNl'iIENT MEMBERS : I-Iear. h<'ar ! Mr. EDWARDS (Nanango): I a k for

permission to make a p ersona l explanation. The SPEAKER: Is it the plearnre of the

House that the hon. member for Nanango be allowed to make a per3cnal explanation?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear. hear ! Mr. EDWARDS: B<ifore beginning my

personal exphnation I desi re to sav I am not a man who takes this sort of thing very lightly. I was sorry for one per. on, and tha t was the hon. member for Ro;ewood's sister. I am net sorry for him.

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member must make his personal exp!ana tion.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: You may be sorry for yourself before it is all over.

Mr. EDWARDS: I am not afraid of any threats that come from the other side of the Chamber.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : You ought to be suspended for a month.

Mr. EDWARDS: The statemer.t of the hon. membe r for Rosewood is ab:olutely correct regarding what transpired np to the time he h anded me the wire. When he handed me that wire I stated di stinctly that I would see that arrangements were made for him.

Mr. W. COOPER: You did nothing of the kind.

Mr. EDWARDS: That is a matt er of opm1on. Furthermore, I met the hon . member for Rosewood again in this House in the presence of the hon. member for Wide Bay. and he has not seen fit to say one word about that second meeting, or about a third meeting. He has absolute y sidestepped that and left it completely out of hi.> expla nation. I met him in the House afterwards, and told him distinctly that I would not pair with him, but I wou1d hold myself responsible for seeing that one member from this side of the House was absent.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hea.r , hear! · Mr. EDWARDS: I have never broken my

word in my life when I have g iven a promise. H ad the hon. member for N crmanbv been present on this side of the H ense that evening, I certainly wou'd not have recorded my vote. That is the full exp 'anation . I am rnrry tha t the hon. member for Rosewood has seen fit to use this as a polit ical stunt in the unfor tunate position in which he is placed.

The SPEAKER: Order !

JUDGES' RETIREMENT BILL. PETITION FROM MR. JUSTICE REAL TO BE HEARD

AT BAR OF HOUSE. Mr. KING (Logrtn) presented a petition

from Patrick Real, Senior Puisne J udge of the Supreme Court , p raying to be heard personally at the Bar of the House in reference t o the provisions of the Judges' Retirement B ill.

Petition read and received.

Mr. K ing.]

892 Supply. [ASSEl\IBLY.] Supply.

ANZAC DAY BILL.

THIRD READING.

On the motion of the PREMIER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoe), the Bill was read a third time. The Bill was ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council, for their concurrence, by message in the usual

· form.

SUPPLY.

RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE-FIRST ALLOTTED DAY.

(Mr. Kirwan, Brisbane, in the chair.) EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE.

HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR.

The PREMIER moved-That £2 868 (balance of vote) be granted for "His Excellency the Governor."

Mr. VOWLES: 1. want to speak on the schedules.

The PREMIER: The hon. member could not speak on the schedules, as they were never put to the Committee. Those amounts were appropriated by Act of P arliament. The amount was exactly the oome as was asked for last year.

The CHAIRMAN : Before i put the vote I would like to mention that last evening the hon. member for Bremer rose in his place to speak on the Financial Statement. I told him he was not in order, as he had already spoken. I have since found that I made a mistake, and I desire to express to the hon. member my regret at having deprived him of the opportunity of speaking on the Financial Statement.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. VOWLES (Dalby) : He thought hon. members realised that, if there was one man in Queensland who was earning his salary, and in whom the people .had confidence, it \vas His Excellency the Governor. He intended to support the vote.

Mr. MORGAN. (Murilla): In 1914-1915 the expenditure on that vcte was £2.091, and the amount asked for this year-£3,168- showed an enormous difference of well over £1,000. He thought the time was ripe throughout Queensland and Australia for endeavouring to get back to the conditions that operated in 1914-1915 or the preceding year. Overhrnd oharges to-day on the ~eneral cost of production. were so great that mdustries coul<l not stand them, and many were incarable of being worked successfully in Queensland, and, whiM the process should be gradu f.11,

. there should be a general decrease, and the Government should set an example in a ll d epartments. by curtailing the expenditure with a view· to getting back to normal conditions.

The PREMIER : I suspect you of trying to do away with the Governor.

Mr. MORGAN: Not at all. Ever since Federation he had always held the view that there should be a . Governor. He was using this vote for the purpose of expressing his views, which coincided with those that the Premier had expressed in the Press and a t

. . public gatherings, but which he [4 p.m.] was not game to bring into

practice. He (Mr. Morgan) considered that there should be a i·eduction

[Mr. King:

r ight throughout the Est imates, and believed that a start should commence at the top and work downwards. The time had come when thfl expenditure right throughout should be reduced with a view to bringing down the cost of living, so that the purchasing power of the sovereign would be greater than it 1vas to-day. If there was a general reduction of 5 per cent., 10 per cent., 15 per cent-., or 20 per cent. in the general salaries right throughout Q.ueensland, the people would be far better off than they wore at the present moment. The Premier would admit that a man would be better off if £3 a week would provide the same amount of food and comfort that :£4 6s., the basic wage, provided to-day. ·

The PREMIER: Are you criticising Government expenditure?

Mr. MORGAN: He was expressing his opinions on this vote so that it could not be said, when it came to the man who was getting the basic wage, that he allowed this vote to pass without expressing any opinion. His opinions applied right throughout and not only to this particular vote. He wished to let the Premier know that his views were similar to those expressE•d in a question he asked only a few days ago. The time had come when there should be a general reduction not only in that 0 vote but from the highest in the land down. Of course people iii receipt of only a living wage should not be interfered with. It was being done in other States, and would have to be done sooner or later in Queensland, and the quicker it was done the better. That was the only way in which Queensland would be able to stabilise and establish its in<lustries. which at the present ·moment were closed owirig to the extraordinary charges connected with them. Som ething had to be done to reduce the cost oi living, and the Government should set an example. No one knew that better th'n the Premier. The Premier had already expressed the opinion that the alternation of increased cost of living and increased wages was like a dog chasing its own ta il. The moment wages went up the cost of living went up in proportion. The Premier would recognise that high waxes had not made the worker any better off than he was ten ye.ars ago when the wages wPre considerably less.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I hope the hon. gentleman is not going to mftke a lcr;g-thy dissertation on the relative value of wages.

Mr. MORGAN : His idea was that rerluctio"s should apply right throu ghout. P"nd he honed the GovernmPnt would recognise that important fact. They had thomancls of unemnloyed sPeking work. anrl the reason

· whv thev could not obtain work was owing t0 the fact that many i!'<lustrics th'1t wer~ at one time prosperous could not now be carried on.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I fail to see what industries have to do with this vote. I hope the hon. gentl<'man w;ll rnnfine his remarks to the vote before the Committee.

Mr. MORGAN : His reason for expressing those views in dealing with that vote was that he believf>d that thev should start a reduction at the top and. gradually work down.

Mr. TAYLOR (1Vind.<or) : He wished to support the vote. He thought the figures

Supply. l23 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 893

that were supplied showed that Queensland had benefited by the services of as good a Governor as they had ever had, and the Government expenditure connected with the running of Government House was just about ao low as it possibly could be and have the place maintained in an efficient state. He noticed that there was an item "Travelling expenses, printing, stationery, postages, etc." H;i took ·it, if they had a Governor, he should b0 a GoYernor and not merely a rubber stamp, and it was absolutely necessary that '.1e should see as much of the State as he possibly could.

Mr. COLLINS: We do not want a Governor. He is only a rubber stamp.

Mr. TAYLOR: He was sorry to hear what the hon. me;<1ber for Bowen said, but the hon. member did not believe all he said, and that wa.s one of those things. He did not really look upon the Governor as a rubber stamp.

Mr. COLLINS: That is all ho is.

Mr. TAYLOR: He felt that the Governor was part of Queonsl'1nd, and that he was doing splendid work for Queensland in occupying the position he did. The hon. member for Bowen would not have got up in the House some time ago and said t ha.t the previous Acting Governor was a rubber stamp, but he had chosen to say it in this particula r instance. He (Mr. Taylor} thought the vote was one that should be carried unanimously. He was sure that the services rendered by the Governor and his staff to the State of Queensland infinitely outweighed the amount voted.

Mr. GLEDSON (lps1cich) : Ho had listened tn the hon. members who had spoken on behalf of the Opposition, and he could see that there was going on in this House and outside a campaign for a gen eral reduction of wages for the unclerdog. The salaries in

. th-o vote they were discussing ranged from £300 to £156 a year. The leader of t!te Opposition ha·d said it was a good vote, and the non. member for Murilla had got up and said they shoulcl start and cut it down. He would like to know what pot·tion of the vote was to be cut down. Was the hon. member going to cut down the lodgekeeper at £156?

Mr. MORGAN : I h ave not advocated any cutting down of this vote at a ll.

Mr. GLEDSON: Was he going to cut down the mounted orderly at £190, or was he going to cut down the confidential clerk at £297; or was he going to cut down the aide-de-camp at £300?

Mr. MORGAN : The aide-de-camp has been disposed of.

Mr. GLEDSON: Those were the only items in0lud"d in thE' vote. The Opposition and their friends had set out on a general campaign for the reduction of wages.

Mr. PETIUE: That is not so. Mr. GL8DSON: If one picked up that

·day's "Courier," they could read there a .statement made by Mr. Barwell, the P remier of South Australia, that it was necessary for wages to come down. The statement made .an attack upon the coal miners of Australia because of the wages they got.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER : Do you believe the " Courier" ? •

Mr. GLE'DSON: The " Courier" published the report, and hon. members had to depend upon the Press for the reports that they got. If Opposition members did not believe the report in the "Courier," he could not help that. He believed statements appearing in the Pross until he found out that they were ir.correct. The Opposition had started on the same game to.day, and said, " Cut down this vo-te," but whom were they going to cut out? Were they going to start on the poor lodgekeeper?

Hon. W. H. BARNES: The hon. member for Murilla never made such a suggestion.

Mr. GLEDSON: The hon. member for Murilla said that he believed in starting on the first vote.

Mr. MORGAN: I believe in starting with the top clog, and the top clog is not the man getting £300.

Mr. GLEDSON: He agreed wi th the lea<ler of the Nationalist party, so far as travelling expenses were concerned. They should not do anything to stop the heacls o f the Government from going to clifferent parts of Queensland. He supported the vote, and would oppose any proposal on the part of the Opposition to cut down the lodgekeeper or aide-de-camp's salary.

M1'. T . R. ROBERTS (East 'l'oowoomba) : He recognised that it could not be reasonably suggested that the vote should be cut down, as no one wol!ld say that these were unnccessury expenses. Speaking for the Nationalist section of the House, their policy was that of connection with the Empire, and, if there wa s any vote which they should pass. it was the one under cliscussion. They should provide the n ecessary expenditu re for the <lircct representative of the King. Hon. members generally had commended His Excellency for travelling over the State to make himself acquainted with it. The sum of £2,225 that was put down was really an estimate, and a simi lar amount was provided last year. Coulcl the Chief Secretary tell hon. members what was actually spent last year? The more the Governor came into contuct with the people, the better it would be for the State.

Mr. MOR.GAN: He did not intend to sit still when the hon. m ember for Ipswich misrepresentecl him with regarcl to cutting clown the salaries of the Governor's staff. He would clraw the hon. member's attention to the fact that in 1914-15 the Governor received a salary of £2,091, while to-day he received a salary of £3,168.

Hon. w. BERTRAM: That is not his salary. Mr. MORGAN: The hon. member for

Ipswich knew that the question which he asked the Premier did not apply to anyone i.:i r eceipt of less than £300 per annum.

HoN. W . H. BARNES (Bulimba): It was a pity that this vote shoulcl be sidetracked. No one on that side associated the hon. member for Mqrilla with seeking to attack the salaries in this vote, because His Excellency' s allowance <lid not appear. The Chairman himself had drawn attention to the fact that the hon. member for Murilla was cliscussing a matter outside the votethe expenditure of a previous year. He woulcl point out that there had been times when there had b.een a Lieutenant -Governor, and the amount which he had been given

Hon. W. H. Barnes. ]

894 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

· was less than the amount given to the Governor. Th-:refore, when the hon. member for Muri'la made reference to the allowance of His Excellency, he (Mr. Barnes) felt certain that that allowance would be the same as it was to-day-that was, that there had been no advance. A3 a member of the N ationali3t party, he believed in having a direct connectoon between the State and the Empire of which they formed a part, and it was a distinct advantage to have a Governor such as they had. He believed that the Premier· himself, if it were not that confidential reasons prevented him from doing so, would tell them that the connection of the Governor with the old country, both financially and otherwise, had been of advantage to "Queensland.

The PREMIER: I say it would not make the difference of a twopenny stamp.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: He was glad he had got that out. As an ex-Minister of the Crown, he thought just the opposite. and that a Governor from across the water was a di3tinct advantage to Queensland. As an Australian, he believed it was a grand thing for them to be associated with the Empire, and many of them were proud to realise that such was the case.

Mr. PAYNE (Mitchell): He c.ould not let the remarks cf the hon. member who h ad just rernmed his seat pa's without a word of protest. The hon. member said he was an Austra l:ari.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: So I am. Mr. PAYNE: You are a very poor speci

men of an Australian. · (Laughter.) The other night he said he had no objection to the Governor cf the State being an Englishman. The hon. member for Bulimba said there was a distinct advantage in having a man from across the water, inferring that that was the link which bound Queensland to the mother country. If that were the only link bindong Queensland to the British Empire, it would be a very weak one. They knew very well there was a stronger link.

The PREMIER: What about the Provinces of Canada?

Mr. PAYNE: T,he hon. member for Bulim\oa was the kind of Australian who wantcci booting out of the country. (Laughter.) He was the kind of Austrahrn who wculd sing out wherever he went that they had not men of Australian birth fit to occupy the position of Governor of this State.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Oh no !

Mr. ,PAYNE: Of course, he would. Members oppos·:te, with their old Tory minds, were not fit to be in an Australian Parliament. H e, as an Australian of the second generat:on, · cl"imed that they had men of Australian birth who were as well fitted to occupy the highest positions as any man from any ether part of the world. A man who said th1t he was an Australian, and would not admit that, was not worthy of the name of A u3tralian. He was very glad to hear the hon. member for Bulimba say he was an Australian. He presumed he was an Australian-born, but he was not worthy of the name.

Hon. W. H . BARNES: I am a better Australian than you are.

Mr. PAYNE: God help Australia if ever she had to depend on men of the calibre of

lllon. W . H. BarnP,s.

the hon. member. They now knew exactly where the hon. member stood. When men of his ideas got into a position they forgot they were Australians to a very great extent, and when a questio.n arose that was going to be more beneficial to the people across the oooan than to Australia, they had no hesitation in selling Australia.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: You are letting the cat out of the bag.

Mr. PAYNE: They had had experience of it in the Federal Parliament and in the different Parliaments of Australia. While he never agreed with the opinion of the Australian Natives' Association that no one but an Australian-born should occupy the position of Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, the longer he lived the more he -yvas becomin~ _convinced that they required rn those pos1t10ns men possessing an Australian sentiment.

Mr. COLLINS : Hear, hear !

Mr. PAYNE: Every time it came to a critical point these men were prepared to subordinate the best interests of Australia.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: We are people of th ,, Empire in the broadest possible sense, which you are not.

Mr. BRENNAN (Toowoomba): The sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Mitchell were well worthy of the spirit of Australia. When they saw these votes going through, they asked " "Vhat is the Governor worth? W.hat is he called upon to do? " He came to Queensland knowing nothing about the conditions, remained four or five years, and learned something about the country, and then went back to England. The po§:t'on was not a fair one: The various States ha0d sent a representation to the Home authorities to discontinue sendini; State Governors, yet they still found them coming out here. They voted £3,000 as salary, and £3,168 for other expenses. and what good . were they d!'!riving? His Excellency merely opened shows and such like. Toowoomba, he supposed, was one of· the greatest social rowns in Queensland. it was run by a few people · who claimed to have the sole right to command the situation. Durin g the absence from the State of the late Sir Hamil· ton Goold-Adams, the Hon. W. Lennon was appointed Deputy Governor. The people whe> were running the show in Toowoomba said, "We will not have him to open our show," and they sent for Sir T,homas Glasgow to entertain some of the snobs of society.

Mr. VOWLES: I rise to a point of order. Is the hon. member in order in discussing the Governor when we are discussing the vote in respect of the staff?

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

. The CHAIRMAN : I might point out to the leader of the Opposition that several hon. members on both sides of the Committee have been allowed to make remarks about the Governor. Whil e I do not feel inclined: to restrain the discussion, I would like to point out that the vote is for a distinct purpose. a nd I hope hon. members win not· ramble too m uch, but will connect their· remarks directly with the vote.

Mr. BRENNAN: He was not making any rambling remarks. He was dealing with a. question of great importance to the people. The last Governor, in one of his speeches

Supply. [23 SEPTEMBER.) Supply. 895

opening Parliament, made the announcement that legislation would be introduced for the abolition of imported Governors. He thought it was necessary, and he read it. They had a Governor-General, and why should they have six other Governors in Australia? It was not a question of the Labour party advocating it. All other Parliaments were aqvocating it, as they recognised that there was a woful waste of money. The system was bad, and he thought they should discontinue it. The hon. member for Bulimba was always talking about the "Dear Empire." It was not necessary to have a Governor going round opening shows to keep the Empire together. They should do their best to put an end to the system.

Mr. COLLINS (Bowen) : He wanted to make a few remarks in reference to the travelling expenses, &c., which amounted to £~ 225. He had no objection to His Excellency travelling to various parts of Queensland, but he had a strong objection to His Excellency telling them w.hat they should do. His Excellency was only twenty-four hours in Queensland when he began telling them what they should do.

Mr. MOORE : He knows more about it already than you do.

Mr. COLLINS: The hon. member should try not to be foolish. He (Mr. Collins) had lived £01 ty years in Queensland, and by hard toiI h'!d helped to build it up. He was satisfied that His Excellency had not done a single pound's worth of work in Queensland.

Mr. MOORE : You helped to pull it down.

Mr. COLLINS : They were the governing body, not His Excellency. He was only a rubber stamp. If any other hon. member said he was not a rubber stamp it was a r ecognition by him that Parliament did not pcssess the power which he (}.fr. Collins) claimed that it did possess.

Mr. MOORE : Parliament does not; the Trades Hall does.

.Mr. COLLINS: They were the governing authority. As to being associated with the Empire1 _they were not. They were part of the Br1h~h Empire. He did not want the hon. member for Bulimba to think he had the whole of the Empire on his back. They on that side were part of it, and probably thev had helped more than had the hon. member for Bulimba in building Tt up . The race from which he (Mr. Collins) had sprung had helped to build up the British Empire, a nd on more than one occasion ha,d sacr ificed their lives in order to build it up. H e could not help admiring the hon. member for M 't"h<>ll. who said he was a native of the second generHtion in this country. He ha d the true A uetralian sentiment-a sentiment that the younger generation ought to be inspired with- th<tt they first of all stood for AmtrnFa. He had no doubt the vote woulcl go through. and that His Excellency wou 1d t.r0 vel to and fro in the various parts of the State: but he did not want His Excellency to set out to teach .him when His Exce!lency himself required to be taught.

The 'PRFMIER : When the hon. member for Bulh 1ha was soeak;ng, he expressed the op'niori thrt he (Mr. Theodore) would agree with hiR st'1.tement that a Governor from overseas would w'e1d a tremendous influence else. where-an influence which could not be exercised by a man appointed locally. He inter-

jected that he thought it made no difference whatever. If they had a L ieutenantGovernor, Queensland, e ither as one of the Dominions or in its business an d other transactions in London, would be placed on just as sound a footing, and would be carried on just as satisfactorily, as if they had an imported Governor. H e did not think the appointment of an Australian Governor in an Australian State would have any effect whatever. Certainly it would not have any deteriorating effect. At the same t ime, h e did not desire it to be understood that his remarks were any reflection whatever upon the present holder of the office of Governor.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS·: Hear, hear !

The PREMIER : The Governor of Queensland, Sir Matthew Nathan, wae a. gentleman who was not only well qualified

to fill the position, but was as [4.30 p.m.] well aualified as anybody who

could be appointed to the position, whether he came from overseas or whether he was an Australian. But his belief was, and he made no secret of it, that they could get on just as well if a citizen of Australia were appointed to that position as by the appointment of an overseas Governor.

Mr. '!'. R. ROBERTS: You asked for that.

The PREMIER: He did. He h ad more than one interview with Lord Milner in London, during which he made representations on be.half of the Queens'a.nd Government, and, as head of the Labour movement in Queensland, asking Lord Milner to agree to a change, whereby they might adopt the practice of appointing local Governors practically in the same manner as obtained in Canadian provinces-some of them very large provinces-where they had LieutenantGovernors appointed from among the Canadia:n citizens. When he mentione-d that surely hon. members would net claim that the provinces in Canada had a less binding link with the E mpire than they would have if they had import~d Governors. For many years they h ad had Lieutpnant Governors of the provinces in Canada appointed by the Governor-General from among Canadian citizens. What the Labour po 1 ty stood for was the abolition of the syst<'m of having Governors appointed from overseas by the Colonial Office.

Mr. BRAND: No Governor at all-is that what you want ?

';['he PREMIER: The hon. gentleman raised by that query a. rat.her important matter. What the Liibour party's plat form advocated was the abortion of the office of Governor-not the abolition of the office of Lieutenant-Governor. He held the beliefand would continue to hold the belief until it was pointed out to be erroneous er fallacious-th"t you .. i;iust have some k!nd of a head; whether 1t was only a nommal head or otherwise was a matter which was involved iil that question. His opinion was that it ml'st be a nominal head. That was why he believed that, if they abolished overseas Governors, they should have someone officiating as Governor who already held some hi(':h office in the State. "

Mr. MORGAN : Could the Governor-General net "ttend' to the business of the States as well ?

The PREMIER: It would be impracticable for the Governor-General to act for the

H on. E . G. Thwd~re.]

896 Supply. [ASSElVIBLY.] Supply.

States as well as for the Commonwealth. He cou:<l do all the work of the States so far as serving a.s a channel of communication between the Government and the old country was concerned, but . he could not exercise the functions exercised by the Governor in the event of a political crisis.

Mr. MORGAN : Could not the Chief Justice ·act in Sl'ch a case?

The PREMIER : In that sense he would be, for the time being, administering the functions of a Governor in the State, and 't.hat was what they ought to have. If over'seas Governors were abolished, they should bavo some official diocharging those funclions, and to act as a channel of communication between the Government of Queensland an<l ·the Colonial Office, and, at the same ti .ne, to occupy the position of a kind of Administrator in the interreg• U''l hf'tWf'-Pfl th P rll~ charge from office of one Government and the appointment of another Government-someone who wruld Pxer0ise the im'lortant funct;on of dissolving Parliament when the political exigencies required that action to be taken. \Vhen they said that, they had summed up practically the whole of the important functions of the Governor in Queensland. With regard to the present holder of the office, he had a very high respect for Sir Matthew Nathan. He had met him in London, ha.ving been introduced to him Ly Lord Milner. He had had a ;011g r.o .J v0ri;::it.u11 WH1J h1 ;n 1n

Londo'1, and, of course. since Sir Matthew .had been in Queensland, he had met him many times. and he hPd " vnry h 0 gh or,'nion rf h's integrity, his experience in public .matters, and his discretion, and generally his fitness to serve in the po>ition he occupied.

Mr. CLAYTON: You do not agree with the hon . member for Bowen?

The PREMIER : The hon. member for Bowen did not disagree with that. Sir Matthew Nathan had shown a wonderful amount of energy in travelling through the State, and he was sure the Governor himself would not think that he (Mr. Theodore) was reflecting on him in any way when he said that the nature of the position of Governor in any State of Australia had been re-duced in status. His powers had been so limited, as a result of the evolution of Australian Constitutions, that really the powers of a man like Sir Matthew Nathan were wasted to a great extent in the position of Governor in any State in Australia, because he coul·d not act with any independence. He must act on the advice of his Ministers all the time. No doubt, he did a great amount of goo-d when he gave to the people, by his public utterances, the benefit of his great experience and wisdom; but they must recognise in these ditys of constitutional development in Australia that a Governor exercised virtually no independent powers, except when he, after an adverse vote in Parliamen~, commissioned a member to form a new 1\dministration. Until such a time he virtually exercised no independent function at all.

Mr. COSTELLO : He will be called upon to do that shortly

The PREMIER : He was sure that, if Sir Matthew Nat.han were called upon to do that, he would di•charge that important duty in a way which no one could ea.vii at; but he felt sure that the future was bound to disappoint the hon. member in that respect. There were very slender prospects indeed of such a thing happening.

[Hon. E . G. Theodore.

Mr. SWAYNE (M irani) : It would be recognised that the discqssion had taken rather an important trend. So far as the hon. member for Mitchell and the hon. member for Toowoomba were concerned, he took it from their . thil_lly veiled ut~erances, that whU:t they had rn view was cuttmg the painter. Before ~hose. gentlemen. pro<;;eeded to put their proJect mto·execut1on, 1t woul:d be just as well to explain what the position of Australia would be if they were entirely apart from the rest of the British Empire. What prospect had they of holding their great territory with a handful of 5,000,000 or 6. 000,000 people without any protection or help from any other power?

Mr. HARTLEY : He rose to a point of order.

Mr. SWAYNE: He would like to ask-The CHAIRMAN: Order ! Order! I

would ask the hon. member to study the Standing Orders. When an hon. member raises a point of order, the hon. member speaking must immediately resume his seat

· and allow the point of order to be stated. If the point of order is not upheld , then the hon. member will be allowed to resume his speech.

Mr. HARTLEY : Was the hon. member for Mirani in or·der in discussing the relations of Australia to the rest of the Empire on that vote?

The CHAIRMAN : I pointed out previously that I had allowed certain members to. deal with the question,. and I cannot, in fairness, prevent the hon. member from stating his views; but I <lo not intend to allow him to go to any great length or introduce fresh matter.

Mr. SWAYNE: He had given all the time to the utterances of those hon. members that they were worth. The Premier raised another aspect of the matter, and he might say that the hon. gentleman dealt with the question very temperately, and it was interesting to listen to him; but, while the hon. gentleman was dealing with the position in Canada he omitted one very important point. The hon. gentleman referred to the LieutenantGovernors of the provinces of Canada, but what he seemed to forget wa.s that the Australian States were sovereign States a.nd one of the functions of a Governor or' an Australian State was to communicate direct with the home authorities without the inten,ention of any other authority . In Canada they were only provinces, and everything that was done in their councils was subject to veto by the Domini·on Parliament, and therefore they did not require any go-between between them and the Imperial authorities. On the other hand, tlie Australian States, under their various Constitut'ons had the right to approach the Crown direct, and that was one of the reasons why they required an

· official in direct communication with the Imperiol authorities in the position of Governor. Then, of course, there was another phase of the question to be considered. He was quite well aware that they had amongst them men who were qualified to hold any position; but, at the same time, it was very hard for any Queenslander to separate himself entirely from party affairs-they had had an example of that lately-or, at any rate, to be above the suspicion of bias when the interests of the politic:il parties in the State were involved. For tha.t reason alone, it was desirable that they should have a man of

Supply. (23 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 897

11igh attainments from outside to hold the balance even. It cost only a few hundred pounds more, and in such a crisis as had been indicated or as rcgal'ds a dissolution where party i;1terests clashed, it was desir· able to have so:nebody from outside to decide between the various partisans upon the merits of the case. He would ask the .Premier to consider whether, after a ll, the position in Canada was not different from that in Australia.

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): The discussion would not do harm-in fact it would probably do good. Nobody on the Opposition side had said that Australians did not possess the .qualifications necessary to fit them to discharge the functions of Governor. They rtalised that plenty of Australians could fill thP office with credit to themselves; but the point principally was that in Queensland, as in all the other St.ates of Australia, polit ical parties were very sharply divided. Was it right and proper, therefore, that this party -0r that part.v should take a member from any part of the Chamber and put him in the poaition of Governor ? That was the aspect -0! the proposal which they could not stand in any shape or form.

Mr. BuLCOOK: They take members of the House of Commons and send them out as Governors.

Mr. TAYLOR: They did take members of the House of Commons and men from other high positions in Grnat Britain and send them out to AU3tralia as Governors. 'I'hey were quite prepared to admit that any man who filled the position must have a certain amount

· ol mental bias; but they held that the men who had come out here had carried out the duties of their office successfully, and they believed that, whilst they had h ad little •Jr no trouble with them, on the .other hand, if Governors were appointed from the political parties who from time to time directed the activities of the country, they would land themselves in no end of trouble and create a source of constant annoyance to the p'eople.

Mr. POLLOCK (Gregory): One could app»pach the subject very temperately. H e was chiefly concerned with the business aspect of the question, and, whilst h e did not want in any way to detract from the merits of the gentleman who at present was Governor of Queensland, because he recognised that he was a sane, sound, sensible man, and (he understood) very courteous, still he could not help thinking that they had in Queensland men who were just as sane, sound, and sensible, and as capable of doing the work.

Mr. MORGAN: Do you believe in the office of State Governor?

Mr. POLLOCK: He could not give the hon. member a d irect answer, but he would tell him his views without any subterfuge. H1• thought that they were po,ying too much for a Governor, and any sound business man or any man of. ·· ordinary common sense thought the same. ·

Mr. FLETCHER: What is the comparison between the Governor's expenses and your St.ate enterprise losses?

Mr: POLLOCK : The difference between the Governor's expenses and the losses on State enterprises, as the hon. member's j aun

. diced vision saw them, was very considerable. but the difference between his expenses and the profits as shown by the last report of the

1921-3K

Commissioner of Trade .also was very considerable.

Mr. FLETCHER: But they are false. Mr. POLLOCK: If the hon. member would

take the advice of the Minister for State Enterprises and busy himself for a day or two with Longmans' arithmetic, leaving more important matters till h e had learned how to handle ordinary figures, h e would probably be doing more service. (Government laughter.) It was not necessary to have somebody to perform the very ordinary and mostly unnecessary functions the Governor was called upon to perform. The Opposition and the delegation-and, after all, some of the Opposition were influential in sending the delegation overseas--

Mr. MORGAN : That is not true. Mr. POLLOCK : H ad saddled them with a

Governor from overseas who would cost twice as muoh as the Lieutenant·Gov0rnor who was then acting, Mr. Lennon. He, at any rate, was an Australian, and, so far as he could see, he had been able to open Parliament and open shows, and to preside at social functions.

Mr. MOORE: He was put there to do as he was told.

Mr. POLLOCK: Nobody could say that h·~ was not a very dignified gentleman.

Mr. FRY: You know very well that he was a party man.

Mr. POLLOCK: The hon. member was eo used to looking through coloured spectacl~a that he viewed everything through a coloured medium. He thought t h.at a LieutenantGovernor should be appointed, not only for Queensland, but for every other S tate in the Commonwealth, and he should be either the Chief Justice or the President of the Leg islative Council, and he shou ld receive, in addition to his sa lary, .a sum of, say, £500. That would save the State at least £2.500 per annum, and in days when hon. members were talking of reducing their salaries for the purpose of making necessary economies it was a wise idea to start with some of th~ higher salaries-without prejudice at all to th0 present occupant of the position of Governor. He thought that was a wise and sane view. Not only could the Governors of the States be paid in that way, and the nativeborn hold those positions at a great saving tu the States, but the -Presid ent of the Senate ?ould also be Governor-General. Imperial interests would not be affected, because, when such a Governor or Governor-General was told by the Imperial Government to take a d efi nite com·se on certain matters he would certainly take that course. Nobod,y was going to suggest that any m an who was President of the Legislative Council would not take tho p roper cours~ when it was necessary. He, at any rate, believed that would be done. While !w was in the Chamber ho certain ly was going to stand up for economy, whether it was on the line of having native-born LieutenantGovernors or in any other wav in which thev could avoid unnecessary expenditure, "

Mr. MOORE: Are vou in favour of the Federal and the State electo ral rolls being combined?

Mr. POLLOCK: He would answer those questions at the proper t ime. His constituents were the right persons to ask those questions, a nd he was a lways able to answer them in a manner satisfactory to them . Approaching the question from an unbiased standpoint, they could fairly claim that the

Mr. P ullock.J


cost of Governors in the various States of Australia was too high. and his suggestion was a sound and practicable suggestion as to how unnecessary expenditure could be avoided.

Mr. CoRSER: Members of Parliament's salaries are too high.

Mr. POLLOCK : If the hon. gentleman wished to hand back £200 or £300 of hi s salary to the Treasurer, he would have no objection. He was sure the Treasurer would receive it and put it t0 very great use. He (Mr. Pollock) was not going to hand back any of his salary, because it was too hard to get. ,.

Mr. PAYNE (Mitchell): The fahe utterances coming from the diseased mind of the hon. member for Mirani--

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I hope the hon. gei;t!eman will withdraw that expression. It is highly diwrderly.

Mr. PAYNE: The falrn utterances of the hon. member- for Miraui--

Mr. VOWLES: I ask that the hon. member for Mitche'.l withdraw the word "false."

Mr. PAYNE: I ri.correct utterances-wou1d that do the hon. member? Was the word "false" parliamentary?

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member used another phra 'e.

Mr. PAYNE: He would withdraw that. The fa!se words uttered by the hon. member for Mirani indicated to him the sha'lowness of the f.chool the hen. member had bee i

brought up in when he had said that he (Mr. Payne) an·d th" hon. member for Bowen had made remarks which ii:dicated theil' desire to cut the painter. He had in timate-1 that an Australian-bi:-rn cr·u1d fill the posi · tion cf Governor of this State as well as a m an from over;eas. The hon. member for Bowen and himself were more loyal than the hon. member for Mirani when it came to the point. The workers were the loyal men of this countrv; 45 OOO members of the Australian \Vorkers' Union had vo'm;tarily enlisted and shown their loyalty.

Mr. MORGAN: What has that got to do with this vote?

Mr. PAYNE: The hon. member frr Mirani should r>ot have been permitted to iminuate that anything he ·(Mr. Pavnej ""rl th ho ·1. m ember for Bowen had said indicated that they advor.ated rutting the paint r. It showed the shallowne5s of hon. members opposite wheri they tried to make <'lit thot the fact thnt an Englishmen occupied the position of Governor was goinv to cyind them to the Empire. What the devil-- "'

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! • Mr. PAYNE : Thev knew that the lovaltv

of Australia, Queensland includ··d . was :nucli deeper than whether they had .an Au0 t ralian, an Eng1ish, an Irish, or a Scotch Governor.

Mr. FRY : You forget the Welsh. Mr. PAYNE: It was sillv talk a bout

keeping the Brifrh Empire together bv ·Mvinir a man from over'eas to act as Goverror. The ' thing was sickening to him a• an Aust ralian •nrl a Britisher. Ifr h1d no obiPctiori to any Eno;lishman or any other countryman: but they had men in Australia who could fi 11 the po~it.;on as WPll as anvone else a " d an opprrtunitv should be g iven to them to orcupv th 0 t positirn.

Mr. F. A. COOPER !Bremer): The discussion indicated to him that there was a grow-

r .Mr. Pollork

ing spirit of Nationalism in this country Some considerable time ago he listened to a discussion where it was mooted that the Church of England in this country should no longer be known as the Church of England but should be known as the Church of Aus'. tralia. To-day they found that that sentiment was growing in th is country; not that there was any desire for severance from the Church of England, but rn that it might become more expressive of the sentiment of the country. They had the example yesterday of an Australian clergyman being elected to the office of Archbishop of Brisbane. It was not new for Au 0 tralian' to be created bishops, and he hoped that they would confrme to be created bishops. It ,bowed that there was a growirg tendency •o recol'"nise the worth of our own men . He did not wish to be drawn on to th 0 t m bjert. bnt he ·wanted to pc1int out that ther'e might b~ something at the b1ck of the suggestion that the exnc~ses of the Governor 'Tl ig-ht be cut down. ThP ho~. me'TlbPr for Bowen rad referrnd to the fact that the present occupant of the po~ition of Governor had been exynessing C'f'rtain views throughout the coll' try, and tha t there mirht be a wieh to re•trict him in that regord. If the Governor did not travel, he could not me thinp; and, if he did not s·ee thi"g-s. he cou'd not know; and. if re did nd know he could not speqlc His. ~'<ce!Jencv the Gover,,0r in one'l ing the Sherwcod show on S 0 turd'lv week. niade thcce remarks when talkino; about additional railways to develop this country-

"' This need.' he continued. 'no doubt <'xists, but, to m v mind, a sfll greater one is that of making <'r earer use of the lnnd nlreadv developed. Tris must be the first thing thot str ikes the visitor coming into the State from the South, as he traveh over tl-ie splendid land between the foot of the ranges and the confines of the city. and there is scarcely a. cfotrict of the State which he can vi,;t without ha ving th;s fi rst i-nnression C'onfirmed. Country wh ich mio;ht be used for a.griculture is occu pied for grazinf. or not beneficially occnpied at al . Reform in this respect sh0uld go from: the city outwards. and it shoul<l be the s1wcial a im of t.he societies which connect themselves with the agricnlt•ire and 1'orticulture of the sl-iires rmmd Brisbane to carry this po~icy into effect.'"

H" nointe<l out that there wes an amount of lend between Helidon and Brisbane that was userl for grazing t~a t mi«H be devoted to agriculture. H e did not know whether there was any connection between that stittement and the amendment or not, but the fact re~a;ned that the hon. member for Murilla, who h " d raised the question . was a grazier. Hi s Excellencv had tPvell~rl around the ccuntry, and liad noticed h nd occupied for grA"ing that should be use-cl for agriculture.

Mr. MoriGAN: I am 35 miles away from a r ailway.

Mr. F. A. COOPER: H e thought the hon. mPmher had advocated a r ailway to run along. s'de his property.

Mr. BEBBTNGTON : Do you not think that he is a rrood citizen to occupy that pricklypear country?

Mr. F A. COOPER : The i;reneral opinion was that prickly-pear country was rid;culously poor. and he would not accuse the hon. mPmber for Murilla of being so foolish as to hold poor country.

Supply. [23 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 899

HON. W. H. BARNES (Bulimba): There used to be an hon. member who said it was always an advantage to ~eep silent; if one kept silent he had nothmg that could J:ie quoted against him. He (Mr. Barnes) did not •ay that he held with that doctrine.. .In the parliamentary debates of 1910 a d1stmguishcd gentlema_n who no>1: occuprnd a very important place m the affairs ?f Qu<;ensland made this comment when dealmg with precisely the same vote in Committee-

" Mr. LENNON: Was the Governor of any use? He considered it was an effete office that might well be done away with. He was not speaking of the present occupant of that position, because they all had the very greatest respect for Sir William MacGregor."

He further said-" \Ve are not saying anything against

the man. It is the office that we object to."

" Hon. R. PHILP: What was wrong with the office?

"Mr. Lennon: It is not necessary. " Hon. R. PHILP: Do we want a poli

tician to be Lieutenant-Governor? "Mr. Lennon: We don't want a

Governor at all."

[5p.m.]

Again, he said-" He would not h<1ve risen had not the

Premier assumed that members on that side had said something against Sir William MacGregor.

"The Premier: No, no! "Mr. LENNON: Not one member had

said a word against that gentleman, but, on the contrary, they had all extolled him on account of his great ability, his distingui,hed career, and particulorly on account of the fact that ho had sprung from the people. Nor had they advocated elective Governors. They did not want an elective Governor, nor a Governor of any brand of politics; indeed, they did not want any Governor of anv kind, so that all the heat and talk "they had witnessed were quite unnecessary. They had had a storm in a teacup; the whole thing was not worth twopence."

\Vas there not behind those utterances the veiled desire that the Governor should be done away with altogether? Was it not part of the policy of the present Government to do away with the State Governor? Behind the whole of the discussion there had been an indication that some hon. members would like to take the first step towards separation from the Empire of which we formed a part.

Question put and passed.

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.

The PREMIER moved-That £110 be granted for "Executive Council."

Question pqt and passed.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

The PREMIER moved-That £1,920 be granted for "Legislative Council." There W" 0 a small alteration in connection with the staff.

Mr. VOWLES: He could not see any justification for that item appearing on the Estimates at all. Thev had been told from time to time that it 'vas the intention and policy of the Government to abolish the Upper House.

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER: You appear to be anxious about it.

Mr. VOWLES: It was mentioned in the Governor's S'peech this year and also last year, but they were asked to consent to this expenditure, notwithstanding the fact that it was the declared intention of the Government to abolish that Chamber.· He was convinced that the other Chamber was altogether unnecessary. There was a time when it was a non-party Chamber.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I hope hon. members are not going to use this vote for the purpose of discussing the merits or demerits of the abolition of the Legislative Council. I hope the leader of the Op po· sition will confine his remarks to the items mentioned in the vote.

Mr. VOWLES: He submitted that he had a right to give reasons why the vote should not be continuBd. He thought the expenditure was l.!nwarranted and not necessary for the purpose of carrying on the government of the country. There was a time when the Legidative Council held an honoured place and played a useful part in the Legislature,c and when members were appointed according to their merits; but that was not the case now. It was his desire that the Council should be abolished, and that this expenditure should .be done away with.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I think hon. members will realise that I am only asking for a fair thing in connection with this discussion. If I were to allow the hon. member to state his views concerning the Legislative Council, I should also have to allow every other hon. member to do so. The result would be that, instead of discussing the vote, we should b<i discussing the ques-

. tion of the abolition of the Council. The hon. member will have an opportunity of discussing the matter later on on the introduction of a Bill.

Mr. VOWLES: He wished to show why this expenditure was not warranted. The expenditure would not be justified if the Government carried out their intention as stated in the Governor's Speech. Befrre the expenditure could be justified, something should be done to establish the Council on a different basis.

The CHAIRMAN : OI'der ! I would ask the hon. member to obey my ruling. I think he has been long enough in the Assembly to know that, on a vote of this kind, he cannot discuss a qqestion which will come up on a Bill to be subsequently introduced. If I allowed him to state his case for the abolition of the Council, I would have to allow every other hon. member to state his case also.

Mr. VOWLES: He moved-" That the vote be reduced by £1,919."

That would le<1ve the sum of £1. His object in doing so was to give his reasons why there should be no vcte of any kind given for the Council. He did not want to disobey the Chairman's ruling. They might just as well have an understanding now. It w>ts the desire of the Country party that the Council

Mr. Vowles.]


should be constituted as an elective Chamber, .. nd that there should be representation, not by nomination, but by a vote of the people.

Mr. POLLOCK: On what franchise?

Mr. VOWLES : On a restricted franchise. Go VERNMENT MEMBERS : Ah !

Mr. VOWLES: That was part of the platform of the Col!ntry party. It was in order to bring that about, and to let the Government prove their bon& fides in regard to their statement that they were desirous of abolishing the Council and of standing by that plank of their platform, that he was moving the reduction of the vote. He trusted that hon. members would give the matter their serious consideration. He wanted to put the Government on their trial as to whether this expenditure should be incurred or not-whether they should retain the Council or substitute something else for it. He understood the hon. gentlemen had a scheme by which some revisory committee of half a dozen or so should be substituted, merely for the purpose of going over Bills after they left that Chamber and seeing that they were strictly grammatical and did not contain any mistakes.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: '¥hat ,is your franchise?

Mr. VOWLES: A limited franchise. If the hon. gentleman looked at the platform of the Country party, he would see what it wa~. I-le would give the hon. gentleman full particulars at the proper time. T.he whole contentioTi was that, if the Government were going to carr:i- out the abolition of the Upper

··House, as in the Governor's Speech ' they had stated they were going to do, there was no occasion for them to pass the vote. If the Government took up the attitude that it was necessary to pass the vote. he could only come to the conclusion that their statement that they were going to carry out the Labour ~latform was mere hurp.bug and make-believe.

Mr. CORSER (Burnett) : He had pleasure in supporting the amendment. It would give the Government an opportunity of carrying out their intentions with regard to the abolition of the Legislative Council. The Opposition would like to see that Chamber abolished altogether, and they now had an opportunity of abolishing it. On a!J occasions in that Chamber he had stated that he would sooner sesi the present Legislative Council abolished than have a system of representatives being nominated.

Mr. PEASE : Which you did for fifty odd years.

Mr. CORSER: I-le was not fifty years old. (Laughter.) They now had an opportunity of abolishing the Ch11mber if the Government so desired. If they did not, they would know where they stood with regard to the establishm0nt of a Legislative Council in keeping with the platform of the Country party.

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER: What franchise?

Mr. CORSER: He would give a little more information than had been given by the leader ~of the Opposition. It would be established on a reasonable franchise.

Mr. RYAN: How many votes would you give the owqers of :Mount Morgan, who closed the mine down?

Mr. CORSER: Their scheme would give fair representation in the Council to the

fJfr. Vowle.~.

different interests of the State, particularly the primary industries of the State.

Mr. PEASE : How many votes would you give to the miners?

Mr. CORSER: The details could be seen by the hon. member in the platform of the Country party, if he was sufficiently interested. Any reasonable man in the communitv would agree that an elective second Chambe"r was far better than the existing on<o. Was it the desire of the Government to abolish it, when it was known that they were going to place there certain appointees from their organisations?

Hon. W. FORGAN SMITH: We are not discussing that.

Mr. CORSER: I-le was thankful the hon. gentleman was not in the chair.

Hon. W. FoRGAN SMITH: I dealt with you effectively pretty often when I was in the chair.

Mr. CORSER: He was speaking to a vote which they on that si·de proposed to reduce to £1.

I-Ion. W. FoRGAN SMITH: You propose to cut out the wages of the officers.

Mr. CORSER: I-Ion. gentlemen opposite were going to cut them out from "their jobs when• they abolished the Upper House.· It was like many of the items in the platform whiclr were advocated by the Premier and members of the Cabinet-they did not like to carry them out. The Premier did not advocate the abolition of State G0vernors, although it was in the Labour platform.

The PREMIER: What are you blithering about now?

Mr. CORSER: He did not know that he was blithering about anything. (Laughter.) He was saying something in t.he int<>rests of the State. I-le had not always lived on big wits. (Laughter.) He had not always had the occasion to do so. If the Pre'Ylier wanted to look at him from that point of view, perhaps he might have been a very easy victim to him. In confirmati0n of his statement. he had the "Worker," which was one of the papers that might misrepresent the Government. Probably th;s was one of the things they had been barking at on the previous clay. That paner contained the Strrte Labour platform. Now thev could see what tho Premier .had been blith0r;ng about. or what this paper was blithering about, because in the platform it said-

" (a) The immediAto abolition of the Legislative Council."

" (b) Abolition of the office of State Governor.

Now they were giving the blithering Premier the opportunity of showing whether his statements in that Chamber coincided with his platform, and were of the same nature as those which he made from jam tins and kerosene cases. The things which the Premier said outside the House were not reported in "Hansard," but they knew what the hon. gentlemen opposite were supnosed to advocate by referring to the platform which was laid down bv their dictators. Thev heard them advocating the planks of that rilatform,

. hut when the oi:iportunity was given them, as it was that afternoon, they tri,unted the Opposition, who were making the way easy 'for them to abolish something which none in the community could claim had any value, and that was the Legislative Council as it existed


at the present time, filled up with people who were put there for a purpose which was not identical wit·h the best interests of the State. He (Mr. Corser) was heart and soul with them in their endeavour to abolish it. It would be for better for the State to have no Legislative Council than to have that which existed at the present time. So far as he was concerned no nominee Chamber would adequately fill the place of a second Chamber in this State. It would be better to have none if they could not get an elective Chamber.

Mr. GLEDSON (Ipswich): Hon. members on the Government side were prepared to discuss the question of the abolition of the Legislative Council in its proper place. He wanted to discuss the present vote, and to show the attitude of the Opposit.ion in connection with that matter. Again they were making an invidious attempt to reduce wages.

Mr. MORGAN: Another misrepresentation. Mr. GLEDSON : The Estimates under

considerat;on were those for 1921-1922. Three months of the year .had gone, .and three months of those wages were due to the men m entioned.

Mr. COLLINS: Repudiation. Mr. GLEDSON: Yes, repudiation in

connection with the money earned by those men. The proposal of the Opposition was to cut out the following amounts which had already been paid :-The clerk, £127 10s.; clerk assistant, £87 10s. ; second clerk assistant, £55; two messengers, £5~ each; one messenger, £23 15s. ; office-cleaner, £25 10s. ; making a total of £429 5s. The proposal of the Op· position was to cut that amount down to £1, which would mean that the wages of those men could not be paid. V\'hat sort of repudiation did they call that? That was what tho Opposition were continually endeavour ing to do. 'rhey were not concerned about the Legislative Council. They were concerned about the wages of those men; but the Labour party was concerned about passing the monev for the workers. Where would they land i"f they allowed parliamentarians, after passing their own .~screws," to cut down the wages of other workers? The sooner the Opposition got down to business and allowed the business of the country to be gone on with the better.

Mr. KERR (Enoggera) : He supported the amendment more or less as a protest against continuing the Legislative Council as at present constituted. The policy of the National pnrty was to have a Legislative Council elected under the adult franchise. That was very definite.

Mr. POLLOCK: Do you mea.n that you would vote for the abolition of the Upper House?

Mr. KERR: The Nationalist party would vote for the abolition of the present Upper House. with the object of having an elected Council to take its place.

The PREMIER,: On the adult franchise?

Mr. KERR: H e had already· said that. There was nothing to hide in the programme of the N otional p~.rty. The appropriation on accmmt. of the Legislative Council justi. fied a word of rensure on the Government. While thev had stated that it was their intention to abolish the Council, from year b yeAr more money had been voted for the Conncil. The appropriation in the year 1918-19 was £2,760; in 1919-20, it was £3.254;

in 1920-21, £3,540; and in 1921-22-the yiiar of economy, the year of retrenchment-it had g~ne up to £3,_620. If the Labour party were smcere m their statements, they would vote for the amendment.

The PREMIER : Vote for an amendment to deprive these unfortunate people of their salaries·?

Mr. KERR: The hon. gentleman thought nothing of depriving people with large families in the railway service of their wages. He was speaking of people who had come to him as their representative. Unfortunately, he had been unable to secure them work, and he had been forced to send them notes to ena.ble them to get rations in order that they might live. How dared the Premier talk to him about doing men out of their positions?

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I would like to point out to the hon. member for Enoggera, who is a new member, that it is unparliamentary to answer interjections, a.nd, furthermore, I would ask him to address the Chair. ·-

Mr. KERR : If the Premier, as leader of the House, interjected, he thought it was his place to correct him.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I would not like the hon. m·ember to misunderstand me. I said that he was to · address the Chair and not address the hon. member who makes the interjection.

Mr. KERR : It was rather odious to make comparisons, but, if they turned to the Premier's speech in the Exhibition Building during election time, it would be found that he stated definitely that the Legislative Council would be abolished. There was also a plank in the Labour party's platform which read, " Abolition of the Legislative Council." They now had an opportunity to abolish that H ouse, and he defied t.he Premier t.o act in accordance with his statement. As the Legislative Council was at present constituted, it was only a farce. There was no hesitation on t he part of the Government to send hasty legisl11tion up to the Council.

Mr. PEASE : That is what has been happening for sixty years past.

Mr. KERR: The Governments in the past had done nothing of the kind. Very many Bills had been returned by the Council in the nast; but to his own knowledge, 11s the Council was at present constituted, not one Bill had been returned. Owing to the stuffing of the Legislative Council, the functions of the Government had been superseded b.v the Council. The Constitution had bP.en got over by a subterfuge. In order to substantiate the Premier's statement in the Exhibition Building, when the people of the country were being asknd to decide whom they would have to represent them-whe~hAr they would have people with Nationalist ideas, or whether they would have a party which was sectional. which was socialistic. and which preached class consciousness-he would refe1· to the Parliamentar y Bills Referendum Act of 1908. That Act provided that. if a. certain Bill was rej ected by the Legislative Council in two consecutive sessions, it could be put to the people. That procedure was carried out in connection with the Legislative Council Abolition Bill, and the people turned it down. The vote waa 116,196 in favour of the Council

Mr. Kerr.]


being abolished, and 179,105 against the abolition of the Council-a majority of 62,909. Thev did not want the Council abolished, as it ~as th.en constituted; but to-dRy, if a vote were again taken, there would be no doubt that the people would vote in favour of abolishing the Upper House. But if the matter were submitted to the people the question should be two-fold-they should be asked whether they were in favour of the abolition of the Council, and also whether they were in favour of a Council elected on the adult franchise. They talked of loyalty to England.

Mr. BRENKAN: Who does that? Mr. KERR: Not the Labour party; they

did not even think loyally. When a Constitution was first granted to Australia, provision was made for a,n Upper House based on t.ho House of Lords. That was the English

Constitution, which had existed [5.30 p.m.] for many years. That form of

Constitution was imported into the Australian colonies. and, when they became States in 1901, the Imperial Government recognised it in the Constitution of the Upper House in the Federal Parliament. He definitely said that there was no doubt that the Legislative Council of Queensland, however. had outlived its usefulness as it stood, nnd it was time that it was abolished a_nd replaced by an elected Council of possibly thirty members. ·That was only a suggestion throwh out as constructive criticism. (Laughter) It had always been said by members of the present Government that the Council was a House of Tories-old fogies; people without wisdom.

Mr. PEASE: Brilliant young men now. Mr. KERR: The brilliant young men were

so keen that t ime after time they could not get a quorum in the Council- could not even open the House; and, in addition to that, they merely returned the pernicious legislation the Government sent up to tham. To call them despicable old Tories was to use a misnomer. Nobody could tell him that his ideas wore net just as advanced as those of any member of the Labour party, but there was the difference that his ideas were on a sound basis and without unsound innovations. Look at the democratic legislation for which the Council were r esponsible. 'Vhat more did they want than adult suffrage? What greater democratic rule could they get in the whole world than the powers given to local authorities? 'Vhat was more democratic than compulsory education and the 'Yorkers' Compensation Act of 1905 ? (Interruption.) The ridiculous, ludicrous cry about the stoppage ol the wages was absolute nonsense; it was nothing more nor less than a catch-cry unworthy of the notice of any hon. member. F hon. me'llbers opposite could show him in " Hansard" a single passage wher e a member of the Opnosition had advocated the reduction of wages, he would be verv much surprised. There was ·a vast difference between that and a prop er economic condition of things in their industries. It was t ' me th•' Council was wiped out. and he asked that something tangible should be done. If the Government were sincere in their expressed d esires. if they were true to the peorile who put them there. faithful to their platform, and sincere to the people who were shortly coming here for the All-Australian Labour Conference, they would agree to the amendrnel't.. Thev might be hauled over the coals at that conference, but he sincerely trusted

[Mr. Kerr.

that, after the debate, they would have something sound and something ta ngible, instead of a myth, or even the continuance in existence of something tha t was not desired b.v the people.

Mr. MORGAN (Mur illa): The hon. member for Inswich again misrepresented the posi t ion. If the hon. member bew anything about procedure, he would know that they could not move a reduction in the salaries of the President and the Chairman of Committees of the Council , because they were fixed by Act of Parliament ; but they had the right to move an amendment on the vote, or to vote against the whole of t.he vote, and i n doing rn to give t.heir reasons. · For the Premirr to say that, by d eleting the whole vote, they were going to deprive men of their wages waS' ridicu'.ous. The hon. member would have the Committee bel ieve that these m en had worked for three months, and that by passing the amendment they would be payieg them only £1. It would t ake a very good Government to get from members of Parliament or anybody else the money they had already received. In 1914-15 the amoun~ e':pended under that heading was £1.627. 'I'o-day they were asked to vote £1,920. an er.ormous increase, which meant that, if they took into consideration the salaries of the President. £1.000, and the Chairman of Committees, £7CO, they would economise to the ext ent of £3.620 directly, whi lst they would economise also indirectly, became there would be a considerably less expenditure for " H ansard" reporting and publication and printing generally.

Mr. POLLOCK interjected.

M r. MORGAN: The hon. member, who had been T emporary Chairman, knew perfectly well that this was the Oppo3it ion's opportunity for moving an amendment so as to debate something which might otherwise b·3 out of order. Did the hon. member sug. gcst that his party when in opposition did not take advantage of those opportunities? H e thouirht he (Mr. Morgan) was the first man in Queensland to move in that House for the abolition of the Upper House as a nominee Chamber, with a view to substituting an elective body. That was in 1912 or 1913, and a great number of the country members voted in favour of the motion, hut the whole of the Labour party voted against it.

Mr. BuLCOCK: A nominee Chamber on a restricted franchise.

Mr. MORGAN: Yes, the Victorian franchise.

M r. BULCOCK : A bricks-and-mortar qualification !

Mr. MORGAN: The Labour party crossed the floor and voted with M r. Denham and others to keep it a nominee Chamber, but a great number of those men now had different views. They had come to recognise that the only Chamber that would do good to Queensland was an elective Chamber. He was prepared to say, without any fear of contradiction, t hat 'the most up-to-date U pper House in Australia was that in V ictoria. When he spoke on his motion in 1912 or 1913 he pointed out that, although their Government were in power, and Mr. Denham had the right to nominat e whom he desi red, he (Mr. Morga n) nevertheless objected to the nqminee system, because the men put into the Upper H ouse were appointed because they had been useful in some political way to the party in power.

Supply. [2 3 SEPTEMBER.] Supply 903

That "as how thev had been nominated during the last fifty years, and it was a wrong prin~iple.

Mr. BuLCOCK: You arc not consistent. You wct·e opposed to the abolition of the Legislative Council during the referendum campaign.

Mr. ?.10RGAN: He supported its abolition before the hon. member ever bP.came or thought of becoming, a member. He 'had been corisistet1t right through. He had always believed in an elective Chamber. The pov. er possessed by the Premier in respect of a norninec body was a rong power to confer oH . any geutleman occupying a politil'al position.

The PREMIER: It will be quite safe with me.

Mr. MORGAN: The reason why the Labour party and the Premier had voted against. his motion-they WPre very frank abcut 1t--was because they did not believe in an elective House. They believed in no Upper House at all, and voted agaiwt the motion on those grounds. l-Ie hoped the time would come ;:vhen they would ~ave an up-to-date Upper tionse, elected by tne poop le He hoped that, later on, there would be a considerable reduction in the nu nb'" of members in the Assembly and in the number of members in the ~egislotivc Council. '~1hey ruust recognise that 1t was no use prcaclnng cconorny unless they wer-e pre1?nred to tet an exatnple in their own paxbcular sphere, and in their own homes. Any man who would go to the country and preach "Econon1y! Erono1nv! Economy! RPduce this, and reduce tha(" and was not game to do it in connection with sornethinf" he posscs'cd himself, was not a man at all. He was a humbu~. l-Ie (Mr. Mm·gan) got his living from c~ttle-raising. He d1d not ad voctcte that the price of catt.e should g-o up to £21 and £22 as it had done, and that everything else should come down. He believed that it was only right that the prier of catt!.e should come dmvn to the same e_xtcnt as

1 ether things; but, at the present

hme, cntt.o W£'re so low in price that there wa~ unfortunately no profit in them. He belw,·cd that in anvthino- he as connected with he and others' sho~ld suffer if necessary, for the good of the State. 'I·Ie hoped the tlrnc would corn~ when the number of hon. members of the Assemblv vvmlld be reduced from seventy-two to fifty-two, and he hoped that the;: would aleo be prepared to accept a reduction in their salaries. It was a. fair thing that they should do it.

J\Ir. PEASE: You do not want yours. You have pledy.

. l\'Ir. ?.fORGAI\': A great number of people m the country were being starved while a g-rent nu111ber of others were liYing in luxury. That wes not a proper state of affairs. He hoped that the people would recDgnise that the amendment was not moved for the purpose suggested by the hon. member for Ip>1vich, but that there was a principle involved.

The PREMIER : The' officers of the Council have been paid three months' sahrv. How are you going to appropriate that £1?

Mr. MORGAN: The Premier knew how to get over that difficultv. It was no use the Premier addressing thos~. questions to him.

The PRE)fiER: We shall have to as], them to refund their salaries.

Mr. MORGAN: The amendment was moved as a protest against the Government for not

fu:filling their promises to the people. The vote provided salaries for the full year. If it had only been for three or six months, then they would have recognised that the GoYerL~mcnt were fiincerc in their desire to abolish the Upper HousA. The Government had told the people in ±he Governor's Speech thot the Upper Hcn'C was likely to be aboli>h~d, and that a Bill vn.s going to be passed t'tis session; but they had got no notice of that very important measure yet, although it should have been in the forefront of the Governn1ent's programme.

The PRE>IIER: Will vou support the Bill if it is brought in? "

Mr. "'!ORGAN: He certainly would, if it was for the abolition of the Legi~lative Council. They were endeavouring to get rid of it now. He was at all times against a noznircc Chamber.

The TREASL:RER: That will make our majority securer.

'The PRE)JIER: "Will the hon. member unconditionally vote for the abolition of the Legislative Council 't

:\Ir. ::\IORGAN: Did the Premier expect him to sign a blank cheque • If the GovernInC'nt would bring in a Bill to abolish the l:pper. House he would vote for it; but, if there ''as something else in it. or if it was proposed to create a revisory hoard-which he did not belieYe in-he re~erved the right to vote against such a board.

The PREMIER: You do not object to a rc·visory comn1ittec, do you?

Mr. MORGAN: That was a matter for consideration. ·when the Bill c1me along he would give his views on it. The quicker the Government brought in a Bill to abolish the Upper House. the quicker he would vote for it. 'The quicker they got rid of that Chamber, as at present constituted, the better. It was onlv a matter of an election. when the people" would vive th<l!11 a mandate to create an elective Upper Hon.sP.

The l'RE)IIEH: A vain hope.

Mr. MORGAN: If the people had voted on the refer< ndurn for the abolition of the Upper House, he would have been in fnvour of that House being abo 1ishcd. It would ha Ye been the opinion of the people. \V hen a matter was submitted to the people, the Government should abide by the a.nswer.

Mr. PETRIE (Tnomb11l): He intended to support the amendment, not because-as the hon. mombcr for Ipswich had suggestedhe was in favour of putting more unemplo~·ed on the market b,v abolishing the position of people engaged in the Legislative Council, but as a protest against the GoYcrnment. The Governor's Speech mentioned a Bill for the abolition of the Upper House. They had that Bi'l brought constantly before them by members of the Government both in Parliament and outside. 'rhe Government had not the slightnst intention of abolishing the Council at all. They did have that intention when the Council was in 11 different position from what it was to-dav; but, since the Govcrnmeut had a majo~ity in that House, thev had no intention now of doing away wlth it. During the last election and the nrevious e 1 cction the Nationalist party, and he believed the Country party also, advocated the abolition of the Upper Home, making it elective on an adult franchise, and making the boundarie" of the, electorates coincide with the boundaries

Mr. Petrie.]

904 Supply. [ASSElVIBL Y.] Supply.

of the Federal electorates. They also be· lieved that, if it was a, nominated Chamber, the members should be appointed only for a term of five to seven years. They had been honest in their intentions in that regard. They were asked to pass a vote amounting tu £1,920 for the Legislative Council for the whole of the next twelve month', yet the Government had stated in the Governor's Speech that the? were going to bring in a Bill to abolish the Upper House. The Premier was asked by the hon. member for Oxley when he intended to introduce that Bill, and he believed that the answer given by the Premier was that the Govern:nent wouid disclose their intentions in due course, or something of that sort.

The I'nE~IIER: I said that the intentions of the GovcrnmBnt would be disclosed to the House at the proper time.

Mr. PETRIE: He believed the Bill would be one of the "slaughtered innocents," and he did not think they would ever see the Bill. The Government were only throwing dust in the eyes of the people, because, now that a majority in the Upper House were favourable to their legislation, the Government. had a different opinion with l'cgard to that Chamber. When the referendum on the question of the abolition of tbe Council was taken the position was different, and the people saw that it was necessary to retain the Council for the protection of their rights; but any legislation which the Government now sent up to the Counci I could be passed without any trouble. The Government had now only a. majority of one, and their strength lay m the Upper Home.

The TREASURER: "\Ve have three when the Speaker is out of the chair.

Mr. PETRIE: Under the Padiamentary Bills Referendum Act of 1908, the Government had the opportunity, in connection with any Bill which was rejected in two consecutive sessions, of appealing to the people by referendum as to whether such legislation should become law. 'l'he Government had had many opportunities of appealing to the people under that Act. They had an opportunity of doing so in connection "·ith the Popular Initiative and Referendum Bill; but the Rvan Government knew that that Bill would. have been a rod to their own backs. There was also a simple little Bill of one or two clauses-the Audit Acts Amendment Bill-under which the Government proposN! to take certain power I rom ·the .Auditor-Gener•ll and confer it on the Chief Secretary; but the Upper Hoqse threw out the Bill. The Government did not refer it to the people.

The PREMIER: What was the title of the Bill?

Mr. PETRIE: The Audit Acts Amendtncnt Bill. The secon1l feading debate was reported in " Hansard, n 1915, page 2387. If that Bill had been passed by the Council certain powers would have been taken out of the hands of the Auditor-GeneraL and the Government could ha,•e done as they liked.

Tbc PRE~!IER: ]\;o.

Mr. PETRIE: That was the intention. The then Premier, :Mr. Ryan, in moving the second rending of the Bill, quoted the followmg minute, which was signed by Mr. Denham, when Premier, in regard to the

"matter-" The Auditor-General is an officer of

[11'fr. Petrie.

Parliament and re".ponsible to Parliament. The Auditor-General is not the permanent head of a depart·nent within the meaning of the Public Son·ice Acts. The staff of the Auditor-General is under the Chief Secretary; the promotions. increases, a,nd leave of officers are submitted to the Chi of Secretarv bv the AuditorGeneral. Previous Auditor-Generals have conducted their work on orthodox lines through the Under Secretary; indeed, the late Auditor-Genera!, Mr. King. made a point of advising head office of transfers and movements.''

The Government wanted to limit the powers of the Auditor-General.

Mr. GLF.DSON: That is not as bad as limiting men's wages.

Mr. PETRIE: Ho believed that the hon. membN would be ono of the biggest tvrants over the workers if h'' was carrving on any industrv of his own. Hon. members opposite were al:.Vays prE'aehing about what they would do for the workeJ's. Did they tf.ink that members on the Opposition side had no sympathy with the workors? He had cmploved a great manv men in his time. and had always given the best wages, and the majority of his emplovees had given him the best day's work thev could. His firm was one of the first firm's in Bri<banE' to start the eighthour dav. Hon. members opnosite wanted these catch-cries to mak<> use of at elections. Thev had had the "deleg-ation" and the "b0od1ers" dunts, and this was another stunt thev wanted to fall hack upon. It was scandalous for hon. members op·posite to Acrn"e them of wantit1g low 'vages. They had just as much feeling- for the worker as hon. members Opjwsite had. I-Ic did not believe in giving a bill" dac·'s pav for a sh'.'rt dav's "\Vork, as f'Oll18 hon. memh~rs oppos1te advocated. He bdi0ved in a fair thing for eycrvbwly, and he intended, a: long as he occupied a. scat in the House. to stand up, not for one class onh·. but for all classes in the communitv. He was not there to be browbeaten bY ho;,, me'nhcrs 0ppositc. Hr spoke for himself, and took the re<ponsibi1ity for it. He intended to support the am,,ndmcnt.

Mr. FRY: When the leader of the Opposition moved to rcdPcr the v0te. he made it clear to >WV reasonable person that the object he hrtd in 'view was to test the sincerity of

the Government on the qnestion [7 p.m J of the a holition of the Upper

House. He made it clr1r. also, that he had no intention of di<pcnsin,g- with the servic"s of the oifJCPl'S of the Council or j:n nnv wav nrcventing their g 0 t+·ng the salaries to ·which thev were entitled. HE' was cwite ccrlain that the Asscmblv would Htbmit a special motion to that. end if necessary. He \nntcd pa.rticularlv to say that the. ~a>iomtl party at tho last State ele_ctions told the people thn t they were tn favonr of an e]rctlve L0g-i~latlvP Council on an aclnlt ft anahise. anrl thcv told the pcoplo that thev disatrreC'd with the present consti. tution of the Council.

Mr. PEASE: It took them sixty years to find that out.

Mr. FRY: He had been in the House only since 1918, and the hon. member hnrl been there onlv about a quarter of that time. Whv sho;,ld he be accused of the sins of omi'ssion and commission of his grandfathers or somebody else's grandfathers?


To be logical, the hon. member must accept the sins of some of his forefathers who might haYe committed offences against the law.

Mr. PEASE: I am quite prepared to accept all the ,ins of the Labour party.

Mr. FRY: The people of the State voted against the abo'ition of the upper House because they wore afraid of the GoYernment. Contrary to the wishes of the people, the Government ll"ade quite a number of appoint· ments to the Upper House of men who we1·e the paid servants of their organisations out· side. Those men dared not vote according to thoir consciences, otherwise they would loso their jobs as union officials. Therefore, it WhS a tied House, which the people did :not desire. T.he people des.ired a free House, which could discuss questions in a free and untrammeled wav. It was useless for the hon. member for Ipswich to say that hon. members on that side wanted in any \\av to interfere with the officers of the Council. The hon. member was not sincere in saying that. He would like to test the hon. member's sincerity on this vote. The hon. membet· told the people of Ipswich that there would be no retrenchment if the Government were returned to power. Had he said one word against the Government since he ha.d been in that Chamber? Men with probably six or seven little children were on the verge of sta,·vation. Had ho cried out against it? Ko. He had a good deal of respect for the hon. member, but he did not think he was sincere. The Upper House, as at present comtituted, was ignoring the voice of the people, because Bills were not conoidered in their true light. What was more, they knew tbat, since those appointments had been made, on frequent occasions the Upper House had not been able to carry on their business because the very gentlemen who were appointed by the Government had not attended. They knew t.he Council coulcl not get a quorum and had to adjourn on seveml occasions. If there were any cause for n discussion on the Legislative Council, it lay in the fact that th.• nominees of thA Covernracnt did not attend, and that even the Hon. Mr. Pag-e-Hanify took the party to task for not going on with the abolition of the Council.

Mr. PEASE : Where?

Mr. FRY: He could show the hon. mem· bor the rem,,rks in " Hans:trd" and in the "Daily Standard," and the criticism which Wits levelled at that hon. gentleman because of it. If any proof were required of tho i n~inceri ty of the Government, so far as the abolition of the Upper House was concerned, they could prodnce sufficient to cover the t.a.Lio. Probably they would nnt be able to convince• hon. gentlemen opposite, oven with lheir mn1 journals anJ their own speeches. The real issue had been clouded. The question of the abolition of the. Upper House had been the election slogan of t.ho Government, but there was some in A uonce behind them holding them ba.ek. \Vhat it ,, a, he could not say. In South Africa, when a Republican party went to the elections with a proposal to turn South Africa into a republic, the people of that country defeated them and wiped them out completely. That was what would happen in Australia if that proposition were put to the people.

Mr. HARTLEY: The Republican party is the Dutch party, that is why. · ·

Mr. FRY: You are the Dutch party. Mr. HARTLEY: You are a liar. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Did I undAr·

stand the hon. member for Fitzroy to say, "You are a liar"?

Mr. HARTLEY : Yes; boca use ho said we are the Dutch party. I fought against the Dutchmen. If he says we are the Dutch party, he is a liar.

The CHAIRMAN: I must point out to the hon. member that his statement is not parliamentary, and I sugge'·t that he withdraw tho expression.

Mr. HARTLEY: Out of deference to the Standing Orders and to the Chairman, he ,-ithdrew the expression; but he thought the hon. member should withdraw the expression he used.

The CHAIRMAN: I would like to point out to the hon. member for Kurilpa that the use of offensive language towa.rch any mBm~ ber of this Chamber is not in order, and, if the hon. member for Fitzroy regards the word used by the hon. member as an offensive term, I hope the hon. member-I am sure he will-will withdraw it.

Mr. FRY: The term he used was " the ' dud' party." The hon. member said now that he haJ called them the "Dutch party." He would not call them Dut.chmen, because he did not know their nationality, but he did know their capacity, and he spelt it "d-u-d."

Mr. COLLINS rose to a point of order. He distinctly heard the hon. member for Kurilpa refer to hon. members on the Government side as the " Dutch party," and he used the expression in connection with the South African party. He asked that the hon. member be made to withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. member for Kurilpa did he use that term?

:\h. FRY: I did not. GOVERNl\!ENT MEii!DERS: You did! The CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member

used that term, he must withdraw it. hope the hon. member will withdraw.

1\lr. FRY: He did not use the word "' Dutch,'' and he did not see why he should accept responsibility for word; put into his mouth by hon. mcrnbers on the other side.

The PRE~IIER: You arc very untruthful.

Mr. FRY: The hon .. gentleman was v€ry untruthful. He said "dud," and ho said it again. The Labour party fought the election on the (]uostion that they wore going to abolish the Upper House, and then they did not do so.

Mr. COLLINS again row to a point of order. He asked that the hon. member for Kurilpa be made to withdraw the statement he used against the Government party-that they were the " Dutch party."

OPPOSITION l'vlE>IBERB: He did not say so. M1·. COLLINS: The hon. member was

referring to the party in South Africa, and he used the words: "The Dutch party sittil.)g over there."

Mr. G. P. BARNES: He might be allowed to ,,ay that there was no doubt whatsoever in his mind that the word used by the hon. member for Kurilpa was "dud," and not "Dutch."

Hon. vV. FORGAN SmTH: What was the connection with the South African party?

JJ.fr. G. P. Barnes.]

IJ06 Supply. [ASSENIBL Y.] Supply.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member fur Kurilpa denies having used Lhe word "Dutch," and I must accept his denial.

l'dr. FRY: He could aesure the Chairman that he was quite right on the matter. A> his speech in that connection was evidently offensive to hon. rnembers opposite, he would discontinue it. Misr{;pl'Pscrrtation was allo\Ycd to creep in; or was rt designed for the purpose of preventing free > peen.h? And therefore he woul·d discontinue his remarlu

Hon. \V, FonGAN SilnTII: That is a rofle,;tion on the Chairman.

Question-That £1 only be granted (llr. Vowlt•'s amcrulrncnt)-put; and the Corn· mittee divided:-

AYES, 28.

Mr. Appel :S'fr. King· ,. Barnes, G. P.

" Log~n

" Barnes, W, H.

" }laxn'ell

" l3ebb:ngton "

)loore

" Br11nd ,. M organ

" Clayton ;\ott Corser

" Petrie , Costello , Tioberts, .T. H.

" Deacon

" Hobl'rts, T. R.

bll\\lll'dS , 1-wayne

" Elphinstone

" Taylor ., Fry , Vowles

Jones Walker Kerr " \Vrnren

Tellers. "vfr. Log· an and JVIr. Petri c.

Mr. Barber , , Bertrarn

Brennan Bulcock Coli ins Conroy Coopol', F. ..:\. Cooper, W. Coyne Dash

, Dunstan Fcrricks

,. Fihelly :Folev

, Gilctay , Gil1ifls , Gledson

NoEs, 34.

l\1r. Hartle\· , Huxhaln ,. Land , }f cnormaek , Ilfullan , Payne ., Pease , Pollock , Hiordan ., Hyan ., ~mith , ~:topfol'd , Tlwodore

\VC'ir , Wellington , \Vil.son , Winstn.nley

Tell.rs: 1\Ir. Bulcock and ~fr. Conroy.

Resolved in the negative.

Original question put and passed.

LEGISJ,ATIVE. ASSEMBLY.

C.

The PREMIER moved-That £4,424 be granted for "Legislative Assembly." There was practically no change in the vote, with the except; on of a si ig-ht increase in salaries consequent on awards.

Mr. VOWLES (Dr1lb1;) : This was a vote on which they could speak svmpathetically. The persons ho received the emoluml'nts were imrPediately under their notice, and they knew that for them there was no eighthour d~ y, and no o·,·ertime pay, and they drd thcrr work very well.

:rhe PREMIER: \Ye do give overtime.

Hon. \V. BERTllA~l : To the messengers.

Mr. VOWLES: He was very glad to see that a gratuity was paid to the ~dependants of Mr. J. Rendle, who was a verv trusted officer, and of whose death he thought every rPem bcr was sol'l'y to hear.

Question put and passed.

f.il.f r. l{inum. ' .

LEGISLATIVE COL~CIL AND LEGISLATIVE ASSE::.\:IBLY.

The PR E:11IER movcd-Tha.t £15,420 be granted for "Legislative Council and Legislative Assembly." There was very little change in the vote. A small reduction had been made in the vote for " Hansard" and other printing, tc"legran1s, stationery, etc.

Mr. MORGA-::-.1 (Jiurilla): He wished to draw the attention of whoever was responsible to a matter in connection with the stationl'ry. During the last t1,·elve months, in the Oppo.-ition roomc, and no doubt in other rooms a3 well, the envelopes had been alr:nost unusable.

The Tm~ASLRER : Get on to something bigger.

Mr. MORGAN: It was an important matter. \Yas it ri12;ht that they should Lo w astdul? \Yhen they tried to open the enYelopcs they found that the gum had stuck them together. He was not blaming the Speaker. (Laughter.) It \Yas b ·d work nan· ship. It \'as in suC'h n1atters that economy could be effected.

The THr.\Sl"RER : vVhy do you not bring that under the notice of the Speaker?

Mr. :\10RGAN: The sum of £1,000 was an cnorrnous a1nount of 1none:'i· to spend on the "Refreshment-rooms-stcwarde·,s, waiting attendants. and incidentals." He had been informed on ;-cry good authority that an ex-member owed the refreshment-rooms a Ycry large account. If that were so. stepo should be taken to prevent such a thing hap· pening. If it were not ,o, they should have the denial of the Speaker or whoever was responsible. It was not right and propel' for a member of Parliament, who got 2s. 6d. worth of food for 1s. 6d., to do things like that.

1\Ir. COLLI"S: You can get just as good a meal down town for 1s. 6d.

Mr. JVIORGAN: Why did the hon. mem· ber not get it?

NJ:r. CoLJ,JNS : I have tested it.

Mr. MORGAN: With re"peet to a joke made by one hon. member with reference to small saving,, he remembered that one Post· master-General saved the Commonwealth £8,000 in the use of string. He supposed that some hon member had previously pointed out that there was a considerable amount oi waste in the use of string. If they took the Go-

vernn1cnt service as a w.hole, [7.30 p.m.] little \Yastcs which occutTcd hero

and there mounted un coDsideraLly at the end of twelve months.' Any Lusincss man who did not look after those little leaks .. and stop them would find that his business wonl·d go down. ThG Ministers in chn.rge of the difTerent deputments should stop those leaks, which '' ould mean a considerable saving· at t.he end of the year to the Government.

Ml'. ELPHINSTONE (O.r/('y): He would like to tab) advantage of this opportunity o£ cxpres"ing his appreciation of the services rendered to this Holl'C by Mr. J. G:l'igan, the late Principal Shorthand Writrr of the "Hansard" staff. They haJ had an old identit" pass from the House who had spent some ftfty years of his life in the service of the Queensland Parliament. He thought it was a pit:. that they had not had an opportunity, until that vote, of ehowing their appreciation of faithful services well rendered.

[23 SEP'£El\'IBER.] Supply. 907

He \':as rather pained to think that that t,cntlcman should have to end his ·days in comparative poverty. He did not think he vras giving a\vay any sncrots when he Eaid th"t "1ir. Gi1!ig-an had spent some weeks durin!:f thr· pa · t mont~1 OY' two in Dun1vich. If hen. members rlid not know that. they shou~d lmmY it. It was a fact. \Yhcn Mr. Gilligan ldt the 'ervicc d the Government he ''a'' nw·1rdc•d £300 i11 lieu of notice, an~ it was a pity, after sorne fiftv :vcars in the ,enicc of the Governnwnt. that thes0 hon.. gentlPnH'n, "\vho ·were c:ontinur lly proclaiming their syn1pathy for tho->0 \Yho Wll'C in poor circn:mstancc.", should have found it neces" sar.y to let bin1 go, under those circu1nstances.

n.m. \'.'. Bt:RTRA:>J: \Ye di·d not retire him uutil he was about seventy-four years of age.

J\1r. ELPHIT\STONE: He was aware that :I\ir. Gillignn might haye made ~ornc pro. rj~1 ion for h;~ oJd nge, and he \Vas :nvare that the Gov<'rnm~~t had given him an extended time N evcrthele"'· the fact remained that a man who hnd given fiftv vears of his life to t!,e Government had bce1~ spending some weeks of hie life in Dunwich, and at the pn ocnt time he vas having the greatest possible difficulty in making ends meet.

Tho Ho:\fE SErRETARY: There arc some good 111811 in Dunwirh.

Jl.lr. ELPHINSTO::-JE: There 1llight be. He did not want to make any political capital cut of it. but simply to show that it v. as not encourag-ing to officers of this House when they had mch an example in front of them as was presented in tho case of l\Ir. GilligaiJ. Ho also referred to the report presented to Parliament by the present Principal Shorthand \Vriter on the "Cost and Circulation of 'Hamard' for 1920-21.'' There mig·ht be hoJL. members who had not peru;·"d the report; but he v. :mted to have inserted in " Hansurd" the following reference that was made at the close of that . report-

"PRESENr SALARIES OF STAFF. "The Queensland parliamentary staff

is, I believe, the onlY bmnrh 'Of the Jlllblic service of the State which costs leS3 now than it did thirty years ago. although in the int~rv'll the volume of ~vork and the rost of livjng haYe almost doubled. The Cueensland 'Hansard ' has exceeded in voiumc all other Amtralian 'Hansa1·:ls' since 1915, yet the reporting staff which has done the work ha' the unenviable reputation among shorthand writers and journalists of being the worst paid in the Commonwealth."

He pre,,umed that could be taken to be correct.

The TREASURER: \Vhat can you expect with tlne0 l~aders of the Opposition always talking?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: The Treasurer occupied some space in "Hansard ~' which " Hansard " would be well rid of.

The TRF·\STJRER: Very little.

l\Ir. ELPHINSTOXE: He did not wish to indulge in perwnalities, as the last few weeks or davs had brought them to the conclusion that they were not very edifying. He thought that that reference was something to which public attention should be called. Here was a stuff that was doing vastly more work than it, had done thirty years ago, but it was receiving less pay. It was these little

instances that caused them to hesitate and question the sincerity of hon. genelemen. oppcsite. They were generally judged by their actions and not by their words. With thci r own ,-taff. and in view cf the illustratiL,ns ho had giycn, there \Vas so1ne cause for complaint, aud he thought that they should put their own house in order before critici.,ing others.

Qu~stion put and pa -sed.

PREol!ER A;c.rD CHIEF SECRETARY's DEPARTMEXT. CHIEF OFFICE.

The PREMIER moved-That £13,568 he gTanted fo1~ '' Chief Offic,~." The changes in the vote were very slight. and the per onnel was the same as last year. Salary increases were provided for, and there was a reduction of the amount asked for contingeucics. If hon. members required any details, they could add rcss questions to him.

:Yir. MORG-\N: He would like to ask the Premier one Clllf'"tion with re~pect to European cablegrams. If public bcclics in Queensloud at any time pasc,c•d resol~1ticns and dc;ircd those resclutions to bc> cabled home to the Imperial Gov~rnment. did the <:;ueensland Government pay the cost of those cablegrams, or were th~ expenses borne by the diff<>rent public bodies?

The PRE:VIIER: It had been the practice of the Chief Secretary's Offic,' for a number of years to offer tho convenience of the Agent-G~neral's staff and the use of the Government cable cipher to public and semipublic bodies. The public body which sent the message paid the cost, but latt<>rly the Commonwealth Government had questioned the right of the State to placo its priv:leges in regard to special cable rates at the disposal of any body, so that the possibilities were that from now on they would be comp~Jled to decline to accept such cablegrams .

Mr. MORGAN: That was what I wanted to know. I heard about that.

Q.uestion put and passed.

AGEXT-GEXERAL FOR THE STATE.

The PREMIER moved-That £11.000 be granted for "Agent-General fer the State." There \\as a considerable reduction in the vote as compared with the appropriation for last year. The staff bad been reduced from thir!Y-three to twenty-four, due to a very large extent to the tran,;fer of ac1 ivities relating to immigration to the Commonwealth. Those activities, so far as the State Yeas concerned, no longer existed. There had been a corresponding reduction in regard to '' rent, printing, stationery, and incidentals."

Mr. VO\VLES: There was a little matter he wished to refer to in connection with irn:migration, and he wished the hon. member for Bow<>n to take note of, it. He would point out that, in the report of the Ag·ent-General for Queensland for the year 1920, the Agent-General w.cLS responsible for sending twenty Maltese to Austral:a.

Mr. CORSER (JJurnetl): If the Hon. the Premier would refer to the Agent-General's report, he would find that the Agent-General made r~ference to the larg~ stocks of meat that had be"n secured by Vestey Brothers from the Imperial Government. He woulrl

Mr. Cor.~er.J


sugo·.::gt that the Agent-General should do sorn°cthing to 1'-elieve the situation here, and, if poesible, find a market for our large stocks of meat, which they would then be able to send a" ay. He had noticed by the Press tbat £30.000,000 \YOTth of food was required for Russia. If the Imperial Government were supplying some of _that food, a. wmd from the Agent-General m the -duectJOn of supplying some of the Australian meat slwuld result in good to the State.

The PREMIER: We will send vou over as Commissioner. (Laug-hter.) •

Mr. CORSER: He would take it no

:",1r. MORGAN (Mu1'ilfa): Everyone would recognise that the Ag-ent-General of a State like Queensland could do a great deal of good for the State. They had heard a good deal about their produce not being dealt with in a proper manner in Great Dritain. They had observed from the Preqg that Queensland butter had been sold as best Danish butter.

Hon. W. FoRGAN SMITH: That practice has been carried on for vear, bv the butter merchants. • ..

Mr. MORGA='i: The sooner the nractiu' was stopped the bett~r. They als~ head that the best Queensland beef was bring sold a;· Argentine beef. He had been told bv a grntlmnan \Yho went to England tbat, when he went into a butcher's shon there and aslw-d if they had any Aust;alian frozen meat, the butcher said they did not stock Australian frozen meat, but that they had Argentine beef. and he was told that they stocked Australian frozen meat at a shop OY"r the road. When he made inquiries oyer th" road. they said they did not stock A ustralian frozen meat, but that it coul·d be obtained over the road. That showed that Queensland meat was not getting a fair deal. Thev did not know what became of their llH·a't after it left Queensland. It was advisable that the Agent General should be instructed to ro;1ort what happened with regard to the meat, cheese, butter, and other products sent to England. Only a few days ago it was statc:d in the Pre;;s that a considerable amount of Queensland chouo had arrived in Great Britain in a da·1naged condition, and that statement W£t.o cakulatr:d to clamag-e their cheese industry. It should be the duty of the Agent-General to find out tho c~luse of the cheese arriving in that condition, so that they could prc,·ent it in futuro.

The PRE11!ER: That is the dut;.· of the <-\gent-General.

Hr. MORGA)J: The Agent-General's report did not contain a great dcaJ of instructive matter. They were told that Vostey Brothers had s<'cnred a contract for the supply of £5.000.000 wmth of meat in England, and that meant that meat wa-. at the presrni· r11omcnt being plar,-:d on th(' 1narket in dl'ibs and drabs, which would do an Ill Jury to Queensland me at. Queensland raised half of the cattle in Australia, and supplied four-fifths of the beef which was sent from Australia. Tho beef industrv was, next to the woo] industry, the princip,al industry of Queensland, and shoul-d be fostered. They had a lot of cattle at the present time. but, unfortunately, the price was very low. If they had gone in more for she~p, the position would not have been so bad, because the price of wool was going up. He ougg-ested that the Agent-General should be asked to furnish a weekly report, or, if that were not

r..lf r. Corser.

possible, a monthly report on the distribution of QLioensland produce in Great Britain. That report should be handed to the Press for publication. They occasionally saw reportB cabled out by merchants !hot beef, cheese, and butter were selling at a certain price, but those reports might not be correct. Notwithstanding- the fact that hides at present were low, tallow went up £8 a ton in ono week son1c time ago. and it had gone up £11 a ton in the last fortnight. Cattle sold on \\TcJncsday last at th,- Enoggcra saleyards at a lower figure than they had fetched for some weeks, although the by-products had gone up considerably, and meat had not come down in price. It would .. top the S]Jeculator to u great extent if the.v could get "~~urate information from the Agent-General. The Ag-ent-General was an efficient officer, who had the welfare of Queensland at heart, and, his interc'.ts being- here, he would do his very best in t.hiB direction. A yearly report was not sufficit>nt. He hoped that the . \gent-General would be instructed by the Government to supply all nccno>ary informa· tion al1out tbe markets. He (Ylr. Morgan) w-as interested in a CO'llmittrc jn connect~on with the cattle industry, which was endeavouring t-o est:tblish new markets for meat. There was an industry est a blishcd in New Zealand wh;ch he tho{,ght could be successfully e>ta bl i'hed here. That '·'as an industry known as flour meat. They dried it and put it into packets like flour, and it was used for all sorts of food. It was a new industry which. in his opinion, was going to be sue~ C0:,sful. Ho wac, endeavourmg to bring it before the graziers here, and in the rece'6 ho hoped to go to New Zealand and hrrve a look at the working of the in·dustry with a view to iutroducing something of a similar nature into this St·ate. Queensland was essentially a cattle country. Tht'Y could gro-w a certain an1ount of wheat, but even if they were to grow three times their own requirements it would be necessary to use it all up ithin six months on acccunt of the \•.0evii. The cattle industry was in a different category. It was one of their principal indw:tries. and gave r.mploy1ncnt to thou~.ands of men. ·The Government should do anything they could to foster that industry, which shon!d not bo de~lt with from a party point of view.

The PREMIER: The suggestion of the hon. member was a very useful one. He was cot quite sure wl1cthor tho Agent-General was at present con"idering any scheme of that kind, Having been relieved of the responsibility of dealing ·with imn1igration and the less onerous duties of tho offic•,, and having tu g-ive a smaller amount of attention to loan matters, he would. no doubt. bB enabled to dm·ot,, more time to matters such as that suggeoted by tho hon. member. ='io doubt., the _\gent-General would do v hat he could in the direction of furnishing information at frequent intervals. He could give a preci& of the nrarket mo-v~~n1cnts a -;cl keep Queensland in touch with the condition of goods on arrival in London and with the manner in .,.. hi eh thcv wore trr ated by the retailers and other handlers.

Mr. KERR (Rnoggera): Dealing with immigration, the leadU' of the Opposition h:td mentioned that twentv ::\1alteso had come into Queenslond. They fo.und that thirty-nine Italians also had arrived. The total numbe1· oi arrivals was small-about 740. \Vith the teeming population of Great Britain and the

Supply. [2 3 SEPTEI.IDER.] Supply. 909

large number of unemployed they had, it seemccl an extraordinary thing that the Agent-Gellcral cou.d not have made a better selection. There was not a greater race in th•' world tlmn tbe British, and they were crying out for an opportunity to get to a place like Au<tralia, whi<eh, perhaps, was the greateot country in the world.

The l.'nE~!lER: The Agent-General did not select those people.

Mr. KERR: lie selected them so far as h" last report vas concerned.

The l'REMIER: No; they were nominated.

Mr. KERR: It was a good thing that the matter hild ueen taken out of the hands of the State. He hoped the Governn10n~ would d0 tho ri?ht th1ng. L r.dor tho Discharg0cl So:diers' Settlement Act the discharg d Imperial nwn who cau1e out here were entitled to certain benefits. 'l'nose men had bEen brought out under false pretences, and there had not been anything done to make up the dcficiecJry. l'a,nphlets had been iHucd by the ~\ge;;t-Genere.l in London. When the matter was brought under the notice of the Premier he took the nc-ce~.:mry act~on to have it rectified. But the sa<J12 pamphlets were being ls3ucd fron1 the Bri~·bauo bureau, and he belic,·cd abo from the Sydney oflice.

At 7.55 p.m., Mr. F. A. CoOPER (JJrcmcr), ot<e of tho

panel of Temporary ChaiLnen, relieved the Chairman in the chair.

l\Ir. KEnR: 'rhey were being toed that, when they came out here, they would go on to a facn, and were led to be1wve that there was no neet -,sity for thc1n to have had previous experience.

The PRu!IrR: \V ail until we get to the " Soldiers' Settlement " vote.

i'IIr. KERR: This n'atter was decided by the ~\gent-General, and he would not be able to bring it on under "Soldier Settlement" vote.

The PRE~IIER: Yes, you will.

Mr. KERR: He would not take the risk. The SECltETARY FOH AGRICULTURE: I was

Acting Premier at the time. You brought it under 1ny not...ce, and it \vas attenclcU to.

I\Ir. KERR: Those men had come to Queensland a.~d were spending money, and they had received no tuition, for the reuson that the provisions of the Act ~had never been extended to them. He had received a lctt"Jr frocn which he would read the following oxtract :-

" I desire to inform you that it has been decided to include under the agreement e~tered into bet\Yeen the State and the Commonwealth, ail cx-Iu1perial service men who served in the recent war, and who have been settled or have lodged applications for the land up to and including the 30th October, 1920. SettLn1cnt of additional cx-Im.pcrial ~.ervico men will be subject to the special arrangeme .. ts to be made with the Cam nonwcc~lth Government in connection with the in11nigration proposals.''

That was a very definite statement of the Commonwealth Government, which the Slate had seen fit to fall in with. Why thcsJ Imperial im:nigran:,3 1-vcro not r0n1ing under ihe proYisions of the Ac:t he did not know. The l'remier should explain why the Act was not bcin':r carried out. It was not a case of Dne or two men ; there were dozens of then1.

Some of them had taken up land and had been refused the co:Jccssion granted to the Australian Ilnpcrial I1-.orce mcu.

Mr. CoLLDiS : Do you not think the G0 .-crnrnont can look well after those people'!

Mr. KERR: They had not looked well after them. He had occasion to bring the watter up before, and he was justified in referring to it again when it had not been rectifil'tL They realised that the Government wore trying to economise, but why should thr·y not put these things right 1

He regretted the Trc~surer was not pre>ent. Tbe other day he had asked a pertinent question in the pub1ic interest. and a decent r ply would ha vc been mere courtesy. He ,·antcd to know what arrangmneut was being

m11de to pay the interest on the public debt, Queensland stock, etc., in London? He

pointed out that the balance on [8 p.m.] hand in the Agent-General's

office, according to his report, was £1,427. The Government still had to receive, in regard to the loan flotation in 1919, something like £300,000, and in connection with the £1,000,000 accommodation loan fo,· the last year. they stiil had to receive another £300 000, totalling altogether £600,COO in London to meet interc"t on the public debt, which was over £2,000.000. The Treasurer had seen fit to mention that members of the Oppositiou did not know the difference between revenue expenditure, loan expenditure. and trust hmds expenditure.

The TEMPORARY CHAIR:\1AN: Order! I would poiJt out to the hon. member that the vote before the Committee has to do with the Agent-General for the State, and has nothing to do with the payment of interest on loans.

Mr. KERR: On the last page of the Agent-General's report there was a statement dealing with the expenditure for the year, and he was d.ealing with the statement in that report. That was the o:rly opportunity they would have of dealing with loans in London, beceuse he understood that the loan business had now been taken over bv the Commonwealth Bank. There was no money in the hands of the Agent-General to pay interest for the year 1921, and it would be necessary either to raise a fresh loan in London or to send money fl'Om Queensland. If they sent money from Queens:and, exchange \vouicl have to be paid, \Yhile, if the money was rai>cd in London, there would be a book transfer only His question was a very clear one, and, while the hon. gentleman accused thG Opposition of not having a. knowledge of finance, the Treasurer hime2lf did not understand his own accounts and had not been able to sum up the situation. A child could have understood it.

He \vas very pleased to Rec a redu\'tion in the vote for the Agent-General' office, as, when he was in London, thPTe \vas too much walking- about in the office, There ;•:a.s a good deal of walking a bout in the whole Public Service to-da\', He had accepted the Premier's aesciranc.o that the ]J{)oition in the Strand was a good position for the Agent-GenNal's office, but he hod made inquiries horn people \>ho bad been there, and in every case they contended that the right place for the Agent-General's office was in Australia House; and he could not, for the life of him, see whv it should not be there. It might be cor{tendcd that the Government had a lease

J11r. Il err.]

910 Supply. [ASSKHBLY.] Supply.

of the premises in the Stmnd and that they would ;ose the rent, hut, if it was such a good position, there \vas no reawn why the Govern1nel!t could not let those premisrs even at a profit. He truster! the GoYernmcnt. would reconsider the matte.r, and take up a position in Australia Hm"e, which was the. prope.r p:ace for the Agent-General's office.

Mr. TA YLOR: After reading the report nf the Agm1t-General it seemed to him that the Queensland Government got a lot of \\·ark done for a very :"ma.ll price. The salary paid to the Agent-General was a very emall one. He did not call it a salary at all for the work that he was doing. The reprrt for the past year spoke we'! for the work that the Agent-Gend·al and the staff associated with him were doing. He was very pleased to hear the mcmbf'r for Murilla brinl' forw.trd the question of havinc: more frequent reports O!l the variou..;; markPts in London. If they could only get the AgentGrr.enl to send ant report- fortnig-htly or mcnthly with regard to the position ofQueensland products in London. it would be of very great value. The export of primary products to Great Dritain was one of the , big features of the e"port business at the ' present time. and, although it was rather clifficu't to forecast the markets-particularly in rcra-rcl to butter-regular reports from Mr. Hunter, who knew the ,game, woulrl be of vrry great value to cxportere in Qu0en"land. If the Prc nier cou'cl do any· thing to !-'et more frequent report' and havf\ them published in the pa pors here, in addition to the cables "-hich were recPivrcl from tirrie to time, it would be of very great a<sistanc~ to the exporters in Queensland. There were quite a number of matters in the report that were well worthv of considerat:on. The Agent-General to 'd them that "the display of produce in the wi:·dO\H or rooms continued to be rt S<H!rcc of great attraction to the gener~l public." Unfortunatelv, that was not borne out by visitors tn London. A rcq·w t was received by the National Agricu~tural And Indus~rial Asscciation from Lon· don asking that regular ,ample shipments of Oneensland prodacts should be sent to London for disphy in thD Agent-GcnPral's office. The National Agricultural and IndustriRl A'·So"iation communicated with the Agricultural Deportment here, a'·cl the Minister replied that they were willing to supervise the forwarding of these samples to London, but they were rot prepared to spend any money. The Agricu1ture Department should be prepa reel to spend money in constantly replenishicp- those articles which they had on shov; in London.

The PREMIER: Don't vou think there IS

some responsibility on th'e exporters?

l'dr. TA YLOR: Yes, thero is; but he thou.c:ht there was a greater responsibility on the Government, because it was on the e'<:porters and on the people of Queensland that the Government were dependent for reYrnue.

The PREli!IER: The exporters get a direct bandit fro•11 the Agent-General's office and from the display of those things there,

Mr. TAYLOR: He thought the:• did, but it was a matter that should receive attention. Very good work had been done so far as indents were concerned, and the AgentGeneral told them that-

" \Vith the exception of a small percentage, t,he indents which he had sent

[.il'lr. Kerr.

out had been shipped from the nearest possible ports to here the good; were being manufactured, resulting in the saving of a con~iderablr amount of money in transport charges."

Those transport charges hod evidently been inrurrcd in conn· ·et ion with previous indents, and the Agent-General was ab e to put his finger on the weak spot and sav-e a considerable amount of monev in that direction. He probabl,1 san'cl his 'salary on one or two shipments, 'Then in co-oreration with the Agents-General of the other States he was endeavouring to ~ecure In1perial lcgi;;:lation in the matter ef a mod:fica.tion of the term< of the bill of lading now in use b:c shippere engaged in the ,\ustralian trade, and thH adoption of a standard bill of lading. Every one who had anything to do with shipping would know how very useful that would b<'. and what a great benefit would be conferred upon importers in c;'ueencland if a standardised bill of lading <"ould be introduced so that their interests would be fully protected when they shipped goods to this country.

At 8.10 p.m., 'The C'H.URi\IAN resumed the chair.

Mr. TA YLOR: Another respect in which the Agent-General had effected a saving was in the marine in,,urance of goods indented for the Go,ernment, which was to be carrie-d out by the State Insurance Office. That branch of the office's activiti<·s had not been in operation for a very great length of time, but still the arrangements had been made. Then the Agent-General went on to give particu:ars with regard to finance, and the amount of money tbat had been brought out to Queensland by immigrants, and then he drew attention to two matters well worthv of the consideration of t.he Secretary fo'r Agriculture and the Go" 0 cnment as a whole.

He did not think an,phing had been done in the direction of manufacturing powdered or driecl milk in Queensland up to the present. Of course, he full,· understood that, when butter was at a high price, it was a. better proposition for manufacturers and dairymen and others interested in the dairying industry, to turn milk into butter. He did not profess to be an expert in the matter, but that was probably one of the reasons why nothing had been attempted in Queensland so far.

The other matter was the manufacturP of gra,s-tree gum. The Agent-General told them that he had established relations with a firm-

" which pwposes to ent.er into an agreement with the Government to erect a factory in Queensland, provided that thev can obtain a sufficient area of country· containing the gras,-tree; the firm in question being willing to give an option to the Government to take over such factory at any period. The variety of the uses to which yacca is put-e.g., for the manufacture of explosives, oilcloth, gramophone records, etc.-gives much importrtnce to Queensland's resources in this direction."

He was very pleased to hear that those negotiations were in progress, and he sincerely trusted that something would come of them, because, if there was one thing in Queensla.nd they wanted more than another, it was the promotion of industries, both primary and secondary. So long as the

Supply. [:23 SEPTIC!VlBER.] Supply. 911

Ag·ent-GenNal was there, he thoug-ht he would givfl as much prominence as he pos· siLl:;- could to the Stote of Queenslan<:l, because he \\as satisfied with the work he had done. The only thing was that he did not think he got half as much " screw" as he ought.

The PRK\HER : He could assure the hon. member for \Vindwr that he was undPr a mioapprGhension as to the exhibits in the Agent-General's office. They had certainly been \\ell up to the standard. lle had him· self he(\n there la':,t year, and thoro "\Vas no doubt that t.he Agent-General's staff worked exce< dingly well. The hon. member for Fassifern would bear him out in that. He di<:l not know V· hat hon. m cm hero expected to gain by casting slurs on the prodncts of the different districts of Queensland in that way. Thcv knew tha.t during the war, on account of the Agent-General's sbff being occupied \ci th other interests, things were not in such good order, but since Mr. Hunter· had been in London the thing had been entirely char,gcd. Regarding the letter to the National Association. there must have been a misa; Jrehonooon. The Agent General'>· office was thcr" £01' the P,urpose of displaying an:J push·ng- Queensland s produds. :tnd the Ap;n· cultural Department and the Government d'd their part; but what kind of <opirit w·ould thoro h' among the repres('ntatives of the industcics in Queensland and the exporters here if l·hcv failed to furnish sample; of their goods?

~Hr. En wAnDs : Everybo-dv's businee& is nobod:;"s business. "

The PREMIER: In thi, case, it was certa;rlv th~ business of these who e'Cported to su·1pl!· samples. VYhoso business wa' it if it 1'\ a=: !lot th~irs? He \V"~S not saving that the industries were taking up the pa.ltry attitude ado··t'd by hon. mPmbers onposite. They rcnd.1v gave as~;istance to the Govcrnn1ent and b the c~enartment. It was easv for hon. mC'rnlr•rs to cr"t~cisc beca115e the Government d'd not five everything theY wen· asked for, und th' CX!lOr(ers wou1d not heh themselves. OrJy 1:-t"t \Yeck the Tour1~t BurCau arranged for ixt-v-onr cases of e<:hibih to go to the Ag-ent-GeneroJ's office, repre.senting a very wide vuicty. and, in addition to that, at the rOCJ'lC't of the Commonwealth Govern· ment. b•1t at their: own expense, they arranged t·Cl srnrl fift·,.fcur cases for Australia House. :"nbodv could saj that the Government were not doing their part in regard to that. Those ir.tercstcd in exporting primarv and secon<:h ry products to London should 'recognise the necesoit:- of helping- themselves and gct,ting- good exhihits. T.he Government were only too willing to arrange for the packincr onrl transport and exhibition of them in London.

Mr. FLETCHER (Port CurtiB): The Agent-General's. office had to be judged by the results obtamed in comparison with the expend'ture. It might be necessary to spend £100.000. and he would not @Vi! at that if they were getting a commensurate return in London. It was a very big office, and one capable of great things; but the rBsults depended q great deal on the capabilities or qualities of the m»n appointed to the high office of Agent-General. He had to understond Queensland and the requirements of Qveensland, and be au fait with all that V>'RS moving-, and on the qui vive for any opportnnities that he might turn to the advantage of the State. It would be ridicu-

lous to have a brilliant man looking after their interests in London if he were not seconded here. If they did their part herB, the Agent-General could do big things at his end If they got their trade interests moving here in a big way, it would be a good thing to form at this end a bureau of trade and commerce, such as, he understood. was attached to the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth bureau could not look '" well after Queensland's interests as they could themselve.,, and it would be of im·. mense adva.ntage to have a bureau and travdling commissioners, highly qualified for the positions, going round the world spending perhaps six months in the East' six months in South America and other coun: tries, anq so on, their duties being to supply rnf?~matwn as to those countries and the posSJ brhtres of trade and commerce with them, th? encouragerncnt of irnmigrants to como to tlr;s country, ·and t.he possibilities of sending thci_r prirnary products or manufactures to those countriBs. They should keep abreast of everything moving in those lands. They v;ould 1,1 ork from t"'vo bascs~from Qu{'cns~ land and through the A gent-Gencml's office at _home: If they were to develop into a virile body, very g-reat things could be done; but they Inu.st have or_iginality, imagination, and sound Judg:nent m the meu who were appointed to such positiom. The results c·chieved would rest entirolv with them. There was not the slightest doubt that the trade of Q•.l8ensland was not going ahead as it should. They had a grBat deal of unemployment. and they had to ·clo somethin~ to revivify industries, and und the W.!VS "'and means of doing it. He thou11ht that ·if they could get into closer touch with all the markets of the world, and not only Eno-land thev \Vould be doing something toward~ that end. He would be very pleased to see such a bureau established, as it would be the means of encouraging a S\'stem of that kind.

Something had hcen said concerning the meat trad<'. He had touched upon that nw.tt('r on the Financial Statement. He ha·d said that the two principal things were that tlw market should ac'.vance at home, and that 1:!10re shou 1d be a redudion in the freig·ht rates. He thought that some form of preference should be g·iven to Australian moRt bv the Imperial Govem'llent, and the Agent-General should move in that direction. During tlw war Australian meat was ~old to the British Government at com;i.dcrablv IBss than the price paid to forei o-n countries. for a sin1ilar qualit.v of beef. and now the foreicrn countries ,,ore competino- with thorn in the Britieh market. Seeing u that they wero a united Empire. he thought it wo.uld bll to the intoreet of England to g-ive thB Do'llinions some form of prcferoncc, such as placjng a dut,v of ~d. per lb. on foreign meat. IIe did not think that that id<'a. which was of paramount imnortance. had been proe 'cutod suffi. ciently. It had heen touched u!lon, but nothing solid or concrete hn·d been done. He thou11ht th•·· ma.tt~r should be forcer! home by th<:' Queensland Government and the AgentGeneral, and. if nerrs<rry, by the Co:nmon· wealth. until something was done. Thev ought to know oxactlv \Vhv the British G;. vernmcnt would not do s~methin!S in that respert. It was absolute!,:" necessary that thev should do somdhing f~r the meat trade of Queensbnd, because it was in a very moribund state at present. The Argentine had obtained a yery h;p; adv"nbge in thB ma.tter of freight; and considering the dis-

Jfr. Fletcher.]


advantages they wore, labouring und,er in that re,pect, he thought it was po,sible for the lrnperial Governnwnt to grant SOin-e such pt;:;,f.::rc:ncc ~s he hacl suggc3tcd. Somethinghau been sa1d about the Ag·ent-Genoral advis· 111g what became of their meat. He did nee t.l11nk there c, anything in that. The trouble to-day was the glut on the British market, an l until that cleared theY could not _hu~1C to sec any gr,~at advance in price. '1\nlve months might clap'"' before there \Vas any irnprovcmcnt in price.

He \\OLt!d like to rc:er to the qualifications ·of the ])l'ese·:t Agent-General. In many respects he might be a very good man. If they were to ha nl the most beneficial results. they mu,•t have the most capable man obtainable for the position, and he questioned \Yhcther the o·entle1nan who occupie,d that po,,ition wa• ~urn, ientlv qualified. IJ:e was SU)pOSO,d to bo either a sort of a father of State enterprises or to have taken n very l1YO!llinent part in thejr inaugurntion. Tlwv knew the disa,trous condition the State Pnter;>rises had brought the country to, the great harm that h~d been done, and tho mountain of debt that had been piled up, which posterity would have to pay; Ae Mr. Hunter was votallv concerned with the advancement of State enterprises in the first place. it suggested b him (Mr. Fletcher) that hjs judgment must be un~ound. It was nPcessary to .have a clear-yieionc.d n1an-a man w:th for"sight. and a man of imaa-ina· tion and origi~a litv~-if he was go in~· to develop big thing« .;nd make big suggestions foo· thf' benefit of the Qnccnslaml trade throughout the world. If they had a man ·who v..ras capable of suggesting, starting, and fostering State cnterprisr·s such as they had in Queensland. with disastrous results, .he was possiblv not the very be-t representative they could have. He thought the Agent-General was naid £1.250 a ynr. It would poBsibly pay the State handsomely if a higher salaried man and a man v.~ith much higher attainments was appointed to look after the interests of Queensland in the United Kingdom. Ho hoped that the Government would loc>k more to the dcvelopnwnt of the trade of Q•Ieensland and do all that was possible to overcome unemployment. It was development of tracle that thev wanted to eeo. Thev lived on their commr)rco and trade. Any gocd things that came to the worker came from the satisfactory condition of their commerce. The Agent-General's office was a very valuable office, and an office that could do very big things, but it drpended entirely on th" man who occupied the position of Agent-General and the qualities he posse.sed as to what achie,·oments they could accomplish.

Mr. GLEDSO::--< (Ip.zcich): The:v had to look at the Agent-General's 'vork fron1 tlYO points of vlew. One point of Yicw WtlS the finding of mar kcts for the nroduce of the State, rtnd the next ;yas tl{e exhibits {]ispla;,.od to attract people to thio country. He wante-d to deal with the matter brought un bv tlHl hon. 1<18'11ber for Enoo-p-era odealin~ ·with Impeda1 sold;ers who arri~~d in QuP0n6-l8nd v:ith pamphlets and statrm1cnt' regardin,; what was to be done for them. He thon<rht that the PrPmicr >vould be well a clvisc,d to requ -st the Arrent-Genera] to inform ~~c indiv;duah \Vho Wer~ comjng out here to bevmrc of the hnd a~ents .and others \vho werG cct~ng 01lt the r\r:tals of thDse peonle when they arri,-cd in Queensland. The friends of hon. members opposite got hold

f L1f r. p f ,fr h PT.

ol these men and bled them until they had not g-ot a penny left.

Mr. BEBBD/GTON: They arc your com· pH nions.

Mr GLEDSON: The Agent-General ought to be asked to warn those men of the friends of the hon. members opposite-the land sharks and the land agents, who took every penny from them and left them stranded. A case come before him laet week of a soldier who arrived in Queensland some four months ago. He met him and his brother in the street, and the man said he was lookinP" for some land, He (Mr. Gled,,on) said, "If y~u don't g·et fixed up, let me know, and I \VIII takP you along to the Lands Department." Hrc sai,d, "All riuht, I will do that." He did not see the ~an again until last week. He then said, " This is a fine country I have got into. I have been out here fmJr months, running through the country lookmg for land and cannot get a piece of land at all. This is a rotten country to live in. There is more unemployment here than anywhere dse in the world.'' He (Thilr. Gledeon) mid, "\Vho told you that?" and he replied, "I read it in the 'Courier' and tho 'Daily Mail.'" lie said, "\Vhere have you been to? " He said, "I have been down to Kingston and up the North Coast line, and all over the place looking for land." He (Mr. Gledson) said, " \Vhy did you not camp to me when I told vou? " He said " I went to the land agents, and they sent mo all over the place." He (Mr. G ledson) came down to the Lands Department and ~ound that the man was not even registered 111 the Lands Department. The land agents ~ad got hold of him. He had put his name 111 as an oversca soldier with the Sol-diers' Settlement Committee, but his name ha,d not been registered for a block of land at all. Tlw Opposition talked about the assistance given by the Government; but it was not the fault of the Government that the soldiers \:ere misled. Thev were taken over the

place by land agents. and when [8.30 run.] their money was spent they came

along to the Government, who had not had an opportunity of doing anything for them at all. The hon. member for Enoggera said that this was a vote that C<'uld be cut down, and directly afterwards th" leader of the Nationalist party got up and said that there was not enough money bcir,g spent in connection with it, and that far ioo much work was done for the money paid. How were they to reconcile those statements? Then thev had another hon. member-a Daniel come" to judgment-a man who had burrowed himself into the meat business.

lYir. BEBBINGTON : A man who knows his busineCl,s,

Mr. GLEDSON: That halL member said, "Yes, I believe we ought to spend more money, but I question the qualifications of the Agent-GeneraL" Fancy a young man like the hon. member questioning the qualifications of the Agent-Genera 1, who had always lived in Queensland and knew the reqqirements of the State, and who was, as the leader of the Nationalist party said, thoroughly qualified for the position he held!

The ;;tatement of the Agent-General in connection with the manufacture of dried milk had been referred to. The leader of the N aticnalist part:: had recommende,d the Government, through the Agricultural

Suppt.y. [23 8EPTEl\1BER.] Supply. 913

Department, to start another State enterprise-the manufacture of dried milk.

Mr. BEnBINGTON: That is a mistake. He ad vacated the pushing of the industry. I will te~l you what he meant.

Mr. GLEDSON: It was coming to something if the leader of the Nationalist party was to be correcte-d and told by the hon. member for Dravton what he meant. The Department of Agriclllture were advised to '<'ndeavour to establish the ·dried milk industry; to export the product to the old country and a ;k the _\.gent-General to find a market for it. It was no use hon. members opposite running down State enterprises after that. He trusted that immigrants and Imperial ·<'X-boldicrs who came here would be warned against land sharks, and asked to put their <Jase before the rHponsible officers of the ·Government departmeutc

Mr. BEBBINGTON (Drayton) : They knew that the Agent-General was formerly in favour of cheap food, and was tb3 firot man to steal the farmers' products in Queemland.

The TREASURER : Who was?

Mr. BEBBINGT0:'-1: The Treasurer was -one of the first to advocate it at the elections.

The TR~ASC:RER : The Treasurer did not say a word about it.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Did th" hon. gentleman not advocate eh ea p fcod all over the country in the election in 1915? Did he not ask the people to put the Government in, and say that, if they did, the GovernmenL "·ould give them butter at 1s. per lb ? The hon. gentleman did say it. Those were matters of history.

The TREASl:RER: No wonder you people are the permanent Opposition.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: He woul·d like to seo more trade agencies established. The Government should certainly have a trade representative in the East. It was not long since the .co-operative companies sent to the Ea.st tra·de representatives, who were surprised to find the rotten state of the markets there. If the State Government had had a representative in the East to keep Queensland advised of the state of the markets there, thousands of pounds would have been saved to the country. 'l'he hon. member for Ipswich told them of somccme who was misled bv land sharks, and who had not been to the Lands Of!lce; vet the Government made no effort to puni.;h th,'se land a.:ents, whoever they were. The present Government were the friends of crimina I '• and they were letting them out of the gaols--

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Will the hon. member discuss the item?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: In -dealing with the dried milk system, the Agent-General said in his report-

" An uprising industry to which it i' worth giving some attention is that of dried milk manufacture and di,tribut'on. This is making much headway in some European countries, as well as in Ne'\v Zealand, Austrulia, and America, and the number of evaporating stations esta blished in Great Britain is on the increase."

'J'hat was the very thing they wanted for their milk suppliers. He had been in a dried milk factory in Melbourne, where a

1921-3 L

very efficient article of food was produced in th,• form of dried milk. The Secretary for Agriculture ha.d been down South making inquiries into this matter, and the hon. member for Stanley had inquired into it. He found fau\t with the Secretary for Agriculture for not making an oHicial report of his inquiries.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: I made a full ·,tatement to the Press.

Ivlr. BEBBI:'-!GTON: He had not seen it. He had seen not fifty miles from Melbourne a factory using 8 000 or 10,000 gallons of milk a day, and they paid for that milk double tho price that our producers were getting. That milk was being manufactured into dried milk and was coming to Queensland. He was not b:aming tbe Government for that, but he was blaming the co-operative co:npanies who did not make some advance in that line. It had been said that some of the fa~tories were glutted. That might be correct. He had seen their cheese factories so full before they st;utcd shipping the cheese, that it deteriorated and they had lost thousand3 of pounds. One of the 'chied milk companies i" New Zealand paid for milk last year over £4 000,000. That was a very large industry. There were factories to-day in Victoria getting 4.00J to 5,000 gallons a day. \Vhen they realised the prices the producers were getting there, the Government ought to give every encourage~nent and assistance to these inductries. Under the 1914 Co-operative Agricu:tural Production Act encouragement was given to the factories, who could get money when they "anted it. This question >Yas going to be a big thing in regard to the milk supply of the cities. It made a perfect milk. ,and all the housekeeper had to do was to add the required amount of water.

Mr. FRY: Do you think it is as good as the milk direct from the cow?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: They could not always get milk direct from the' cow. A good deal was done between the cow and consumer, and the cow 1,.vas not to blamo. (Laughter.) He once had seen a man emp yin~ out a can of milk, and there were bully frogs in it: the man had crossed a creek, and it looked rather suspicious. He was quite sure the cow was not to blame for the bully frog•, being in that milk.

Mr. FOLEY (Lrichhardt): Other hon. members had failed to deal with the paragraph in the Agent-General's report concerning gem<. He took thi•, opportunity of bringi g under the notice of the Premier the need for a little more investigation by the _\gent.Genoral in regard to the ovorsoa markets, in order that something might be done in regard to the marketing of fancy sapphires in London and other parts of Europe. A good deal more could be done thon f!e had done in the past. In his report, the Agent-General stated-

" My efforts have been directe-d during the past ye· .u to securing a more sa tisfactory position for Queensland gems in the French market. where the lapidaries \vere not org-anjsed and \VE.'re unfan1iliar with Queensland goms.' 1

A5 a matter of fact, they had been sending sapphires from the Anakie gem field to France and other parts of Europe for the past twenty-five years, and it soemod a peculiar thing that the lapidaries of France Were unfamiliar with the Queensland gems.

Mr. Foley.]

914 SupJ1ly. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply

H,. quite understood that this state of affairs had arisen because in the past dealers in tho'e countries had been in the habit of selling the Queens:and blue sapphire as the Ce: lon Bapphire. Consequently the lapidaries ia Europe cutting and polishing those gems were none the wiser. In London it was almost impossib!P to market in the jewellers' shop" what was known as the yellow sapphire. o,, the Anakie field they produced a quant. ty of ycl:ow sapphires, and it was absolutely impossible to sell them at a decent price on the avers ea markets. Yet thev were second to no other gems except the di~mond in their beautv and brilliancv. Under the electric light "they could note the brilliancy of a yellow sapphire at a much greater distancG than thev could that of a diamond. Another point mentioned by the Agent-General was in regard to the cutting and polishing of those gems. His (Mr. Foley's) suggestion was that they should obtain from the Anakie field a sample of fancy sapphires. They alread.v had made arrangements, and he was negotiat. ing in reference to the famous blue sapphires. They collld produce such fancy. gems as the yellow sapphire, the red sapphire (called the ruby), and the parti-coloured sapphire. Queen ,Jacd was the on:y place in the world which produced the parti-coloured sapphire. It was " up to" the Govcmment to obtain an vs,ortmont of those fancy gems from th,J n1iner~ ~ send them to France, give the lapidaries who claimed they were unfamiliar with Queensland gems the opportunity of cutting and polishing those gems, and exhib·:t them in the office of the Agent-General in London. The people who came to London from various parts of the world would thus lw enabled to see they had such things in Ouecn~Jand, and it would giye the miners an orportunity of marketing their gems in the future. (Hear, hear !)

Mr. 'I'A YLOR: He rose to contradict the strrtement of the hon. member for Ipswich. Trat hon. member said that he (Mr. Taylor) had advocated a State enterprise for the mRnufacture of dried milk. That was a deliberate lie.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! The leader of the Nationalist party must know that he is not in order in using that expression. I would ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw it.

Mr. TAYLOR: He withdrew the statement. On the previous day they had had a discussion in that Chamber about misstatements. The hon. member for Inswieh knew perfectly well that he had not said anything of the kind. There were two Ministers sitting in the Cha'Tiber-the Premier and the Secretarv for Agriculture-and he was quite mre either of those hon. gentlemen would say thot he had not said anything of the kinrl. With regard to the dried milk industry h·: had simply stated that the Agent-General drew attention to it in his report, and that encouragement should be given to it b" the Govcr"ment. It did not do the hon. me"mber credit to speak as he did, and, if he was a Cl.ecnnt and honest individual, he would withdraw it.

Mr. GLEDSON: He was wrrv that the lea.der of the Nationalist party had taken the thng en sorely. He made the statement, ard rnarle it again, that the leader of the Nationalist party, in recommending the Secretary for Agrieu'ture to take notice of the Ai"rnt-General's report in connection with dried milk. advocated tha establishment·

[Mr. Foley.

of a dried milk factory, and was therefore supporting another State enterprioe.

Mr. TAYLOR: It is a lie. Liar!

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I must ask the hon. member to withdraw that statement.

JYir. TAYLOR: I am not going to withdraw it. (The hon. member then left the Chamber.)

Mr. FRY : It is time this thing came to a. head.

Mr. GLEDSON: He was sorry the leader of the Nationalist party had taken things m that way.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Withdraw!

Mr. GLEDSON: He did not !mow that there was anything he need withdraw. If he had said anything that he had need to withdraw and the Chairman asked him to withdraw it, he would cerhinly do so. H<> said again that the hon. member advocated t.he establishment of a State enterprise. If an hon. member got up and recommended the Minister to take notice of such a statement, what else was it? If the State was going to enter into any buoiness, was it not a State enterprise?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Is not the Secrctarv for Agriculture there to enconrage everything independent of party ?

Mr. GLEDSON: Anv indnstr~ or any business that the Gm·ernment stm:ted was a State entNprise.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: He did not advocatestarting it; he advocated encouraging it.

Mr. GLEDSON: The leader of the Notionalist party did not get up in the House and actually say, " I advccate the establishment of a State enterprise."

Mr. BEBBINGTON : Why did you say he did ?

Mr. GLEDSON: He did not say so. Mr. BEBBINGTON: You said he advocated

the establishment of a State erterprise. Mr. GLEDSON: l-Ie said the hon. member

advoc:tted a State industry. Any hon. member in advocating the Government b establish anything was advocating State i~dustry.

Mr. ·WARREN: "Assist," he said.

Mr. GLEDSON: What was the difference? There was no dried milk factory in Queensland, and what the leader of the Nationalist party did say was that he recoll!mended this matter to the Secretary for Agrrculture, and he (Mr. Gledson) said that was advocating State enterprise.

Mr. Moo RE : You twisted his words round. That is what you are trying to do.

Mr. GLEDSON: He was not going to sa¥ that the leader of the Nationalist party stated that he (Mr. Taylor) was advocating State enterprisil.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: That was your interpretation?

Mr. GLEDSON: Yes. If the hon. m_ember thought he did say that, he ~ert.amly would withdraw. That was onlv h1s mference from what the hon. member said, and he would certainly withdraw any imputation that the hon. member adv~cated the establishment of a State enterpri'e.

The HOME SECRETARY: He hoped the Chairman was not going to allow any member of the House to make the statement that had been made by the hon. me'"1 ber for Windsor, and then walk out of the House

SLipp!p.

without attention being called to it. If that happened, then discipline was gone altogether.

The CHAIRM"\N: So far as I am p~rsonally concerned, I would like: to hear authorities on the matter. I must confe"·' that eo far as my reading goes--

(The hon. member for \Vindsor here returr;ed to the Chamber.)

The CHAIR:\iAN: As the hon. member has now returned to the Chamber. I again apperrl to him to withdraw the expression, as tt is unparliamentary.

Mr. TAYLOR: I withdraw.

Mr. FRY: The in·:ident would not have cropped up--

A GovERNMENT MEMBER: Drop it ! The CHAIRMAN: The incident is closed.

The hon. me nbcr has withdrawn.

J\lr. MOORE: With reference to the matter brour ht up by the ron. member for \Vindeor, he would point o:It that the produce the.t was to be s~nt to London was produce belonging to farmers, and it was to be sent home to advertise Queensland, and ·those people were not going to get any benefit out of it at all.

The SEcRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Who was?

Mr. MGORE: The State wou'd get the beJlefit as it wou'd shm.,- the people coming to Queen land what the Shte could produce. The suggestion was made that the State shou:d bw.· so·nc of that produce, because it wa' a verv fi ·e e"hibit, apd send it home to advertise Queensland, and not to adver-· tise any section of the peop!e.

The SE''RETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: \V ere they paid to bring it to the show?

:VIr. MOO RE: The,- sent it down here because they were pl:oud of their uistrict, and it wa- sent back to them aft•r the show. \Vhv should thev lo-e ·it? It was a venprai•eworth.v -ugre ticn that the exhibit shocrld bP sent home, because they had heard stotoments sm·eral ti·ncs that the e'<hibit3 at present in the Agent-General's office were not sati,f· ctory.

In hi·' report the Agent-General said-· " It should be ncted that, whereas the

ouality of butter from the two Empire sources mentioned bad been kept at a most satisfa· tory level, that of the Duteh and Danish imports has given rise to murh adYcl~se col11!ncnt."

In spite cf that, the dairy experts of the deportment ftlttcd that much of the butter which was sent home proved to be sccondcless. The Agent-General for Queensland made no distinction between Queensland produce and Au•tralian produce, and they wanted to know what was happening in regard to the produce of this State. They did not want a general statement.

Mr. BREXNAN: vVas not the pool in operation then?

Mr. MOO RE: It seemed to him an extraordinary thing th~t the Agent-General of the State should moke a stfltemcnt like that, and they wanted to find out something definite. He was making no charge; but, when the Ag-er.t-General wa.s there to reco·nmend Queemland produc(s, he should state specificallv what was required so that the mistakes C{)ul·d be remedied at thie end.

Mr. BRENNAN: vVas it not a Commonwealth contract?

Supply. 915

Mr. MOO RE: It did not matter whether it was a Co·:nmonwcalth codract {)r not. The Agent-General :tated that the quality was satisfactory, and they hfld the Department of Agricu'turc in Australia saying th& quality was not satisfactory. \\Thom wore· they to believe? If it was root satisfactory when the butter got home, why did not the· Agent-General say so, so that they could try and improve the quality?

[9 p.m.J Another matter he wanted to refer to was

immigration. The Premier, when Treasurer, said in his Financial Statement in 1915-

" The number {)f immigrants who came to Queendand during the year 1914 under the GoYernment immigration scheme was 4,162 souls. This year the number will be cons:dorably less, as no inducement is being offered to young men to leave Groat Britain during the mntinuancc of the war. Preparation is being made. however, for the reception -of l~rg-c add~tiors ~o our population when the war Js over.

VI' as it not an extraordinary thing that those preparations were being made as early as 1915, ;-.1nd yet after five ,\'Oars, hen one _n~an c..trne out, they found there was no provision for him, and he had to go back again ? He referred to J\1r. Saunders's letter in tho "Courier."

Mr. BREN:-iAN: When did Sa.unders write?

Mr. MOO HE: It was on]-.- two months ago that he was in Qucen:lanrf

Mr. BREXNA:-1: Wlw were not arrangements m ado by the Federal Government?

Mr. MOORE: Was it a matter for the Fe·dcral Go\'ernment? The Premier mad<> the .statement in 1915 th:1t preparations were bring made, and they had had five yearJ in which to make them.

Mr. BRE:-!NA:-1: Why did not "Billy" Hughes prm·i·do for them?

Mr. MOORE: The hon. member had an obseesion about "Billy" Hughes.

The TREASuRER: I will tell you another man who has an obsession about •· tlilly" Hughes-" Billy" Hughes. (Government la ug.hter.)

Mr. MOO RE: He had reason for it; but he was hanged if the hon. gentleman had. Mr. Hughes ha·d been home to England, and had done wonderful work for Australia, and that was recognised all over the world.

Mr. BRENNAN: No hope!

Mr. MOORE: Everybody rec'lgnised that suitable immigrants were require·d in Queens] and, and they wanted to find out what had been done in the way of preparation for their reception. It was up to the Govelnment to say whether they were going Eo make any preparations, or whether their te.]k was mere bluff.

Mr ELPHIKSTONE (Oxley): He wanted to make a few remarks on the financial side of the Agonl-General's report-even in his patronising manner. (Laug-hter.) One of tllE'se days he probabl:v would have occasion t.rJ refer to some of the Premier's misstatements of the previous night, a.nd show him why it was that he had to adopt that air of patronage. (Renewed laughter.) The cutting off of the London market for loan purposes was reflected very largely in thE>·

i.l1 r. El phinstrJiu,. .

916 Supply. [ASSEl\mL Y.] Supply.

Agent-General's report, because they found that on 1st January, 1920, the cash balances in London were £460,000, a.nd on the 31st December, 1920. they :vere reduced to £1,427. Of course, the obvwus reason was that their financial transactions in London were practically stifled at the present moment Many of their departments, as -hon. members doubtlr~s kne1\, drew large indents from London, and used moneys there for financ ing them. Last year they raised in London, by loa.ns and other means, £2,775,000, only £300,000 of which was remitted to Au• tralia; the rest-£2,475.000---being utilised to finance the State's operations in Great Britain. At present, money not being avail able there, they had to remit money to Great Britain, and he had occasion to ask the Troasurer some da.:v·p ago ·what money they did send to London: aud the cost, and the an,-.,•er he got was very complete, and he thrrnked the Treasurer for it. It showed that they had remitted £1,555,000, at a cost for exchange of. approximately, £18.000. There was £18,000 gone in exchange simply bec~usc- the London market had been closed to them for the purpose of financing their State enterprises and State undertakings. He did not want to rake up the question of repudiation and all that sort of tliing; but it was necessary that they should try to learn lessons from the experiences they wore suffering, and he wanted to show what a calamity it was, seeing that they bought so largely from Great Britain, to ha.ve the financial market there closed against them.

Another point on which he would like information from the Premier was the item in the appendix to the report dealing with the intprest on the Etheridge .J.eh<:ntures, amounting to £6.088. Some of them were looking for an explanation as to why it was possible to pay the interest on these debentures in London and yet redeem them· in l'v1elbourne. It was a great pity the redemption was: not off0red in London, irrespective of any que"tion there mi[ht have been on the construction of the agreement, and so avoid the opportunity, which had so frequently arisen, of saying that Queensland was not playing the game financially.

The PREMIER: I suggest the hon. member should defer the matter till the Treasurer's Estimates are discussed.

Mr. ELPHINS'IONE : He would be pleased to do so. In that evening's issue of the " Observer," the following reference was made to the loan floated in Great Britam for the Metropolitan Water Board-

" The underwriters of the £1.000,000 loan launched by the Brisbane ·Metropolitan and Ipswich \Vater Supply and Sewerage Board have been allotted 75 per cent. of the loan. Opinion in the city is that the poor result is due to prejudice against Queensland securities."

There wag no pleasure in continually pointing that out. The only object they had was to endeavour to fm·ce homo the lesson that they, as statesmen, should endeavour to learn-that they must re-establish the good name they once enjoyed in Great Britain, and get back to that state of free and OJ.en trading which had always existed in regard to their transcctions in London, and which had been stifled because of some misconception as to what the duty of the Government was to the community.

Mr. BREN:NAN (1'oowoomba): He thought that the paragraph quoted by the

f2Ur. Elphinstone..

hon. member for Oxley showed that their credit was as good as or better than that of any other part of the Empire. Thev must recognise that the people who underwrote the loan must have known that the security was all right. They were taking no risks. Yet they found that they could not relv on cablegrams. The hon. member ha-d spoken about finance and about so much mone;• in London, and that at a later date the balance was practically reduced to a n1inirnur!1. The hon. gentleman knew very well that the imports to Australia greatly exceeded the exports. Th<· hon. gentleman also knew that the meat industry, the woollen industry, and the wheat industry had be,-,n absolutely neglected. They knew that on the London vvharves c\ustralian meat was rotting, and that th0 wool und••r the Bmn-a scheme was hung up. They would not trade with Germany or _._\.ustria, and w-ould nDt send any of their surp~us supplies there to enable them to get the rest of their produetc away whereby thev might have s;olemlicl cre-dit in London to-day. The hon. member continued to tell the people that Queensland's credit was bad. knowing· fLlll well that it was the conduct of the flllanciers on the other side of the world that was cousing all this trouble.

Mr. J. H. C. ROBERTS (Pittszcorth) : He felt that the office of the Agent-General should be better than it was at the present time. They received once a year a report from the Agent-General as to the work he he d done in the previous twelve months. The Agent-General's office should do b:gger ·sork than that. He felt +hat a great deal of goo-d could be done throughout the conntry, more especially through tho efforts of coop.crative companieB. The Secretar:v for Agriculture knew that the co-operative companies were manufacturing large quantities of butter, cheese, and baron. It was a welll;nown fact that in different parts of England buttee of a particular grade. a particular colour, and a particular quality was acceptable. w,heroas in other -parts of Eng·land it would not be looked at. Bntt0 r that could be put on the market for sale in London would probably not be acceptable at Hull, and vice versa; and butter that was put on the market at Hull might not probably bo adaptable for the trade at Liverpool. They never got any advi-ce on those. points frorn the Agent-Gene1·al's office. He wa·; not speaking in any carping spirit. but he was only hoping that, if lw hammered at the of!ico of the Agent-General. thev would receive thf! good results thcv expected to receive. He looked upon the Agent-General as a medium through whom a great amount of infor_mation regarding ooth cheese and butter mJght be gathere,d and sent throug·h the SerJ·otary fm· A~ricu!ture into the countrv districto. The bll1ter and cheese con1panies '~ere trying t'I manufacture a better article. TheY were prepared to abist the Secr,,tary for .\griCl:lhue in his efforts to br1ng int,o being rerta1n reg-ulationc dealing with the qu<·"tion of buildings on farms, the distances the:v \\ere to be from certain otbcr buildings,- and other regulations.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICcLTURE: I hope you will do that.

Mr. J. H. C. ROI3ERTS: Probably in manv cases it was necc'<sary, but he hoped that' the Minister was not going to insist on its being carried out en bloc. as it might cause hardship. If they were doing all they could to produce a better quality of butter,

Supply. [23 SEPTEMBEll.) Supply. 917

then they naturally expected that the AgentGeneral's office would be used for the purpose o£ giving them monthly inforn1ation.

Mr. BRENNAN: Have you ever made that request?

Mr. J. H. C. ROBER'l'S: He was perfectly still whilo the hon. member for Toowoomba v;,T.as making some foolish remarks, and he hoped that the hon. member would not "-tep in now. Was it not a fact that there was probably hidden away in some corner a report that was sent out some considerable time ago in connection with the marketing of butter?

The TREASURER : If there is a report of that nature in txi•"tcnce, you can have a cop~y of it at any time. ·

Mr. J. H. C:. ROBERTS: He did not particularly want the report; the people who \Vcrc n1anaglng the co-operative cheese and butter factories required the report--the people who were responsible for the succeso or otherwise of their co-o~J-erative cntGrprisr s on the Downs and in other farming districts. One of the greatc•t disabilities they were labouring under in Australia to-day, and which they would always labour under, was that the directors or people largelv interested in the manufacture of rrcw materials had not th0 facilities offered to them to tran,] a few miles by rail to be in the hub of the universe 6o far as the buttm· market was roncern<'d. If the directors of any of the co-operative companies wished to send a man home to inquire into the distribution of butter, or the different qualities of butter that were acceptable in various parts of Eng-land. they had to send him 15,000 or 16.000 miles to do that. The Downs Co-operative Dairy Company, as the hon. member for Toowoomba knew, sent a man to England and paid h;'"' expenses to enable him to make certain inquiries in regard to opening· up nc\t 1nnrkeh for their bt:tter and cherse. If the,, did that, ourely it was not unreasonable that they should ask that the Agent Genera l'e office' should sec that it g:ave them a clcu <'oncontion as to the requirements of butt'""!' •and other products rc·quired for the English market. It was not only going to be of interest to the men who were producing tho raw n1aterial and the men rospon ible for the manufacture of that raw material into the manufactured article, but it was also of interest to other Australians.

l\ofr. BRENNAN : We say so, too.

Mr. J. H. C. ROBERTS: He had never heard the hon. member say so. Not only did it apply to butter, but it applied to the fat lamb market. Years a":;:o they had tried to bring into being a fat-lamb industry.

Mr. BREN:-IAX: \Vhen?

M!'. J. B. C:. ROEERTS: It wr1s be foro thn hon. member ever thought about going farming. (Laughter.) An effort wa,,, made, and they found that many hrmors did not appreciate the fact that a certain quality of lamb or a certain quality of flesh wes required on the English market. \Vhat was suitable for the Queensland or Australian trade. so far as lan1b was concerned, ,,·as not suitable for the London market. He had exported a certain number of lambs, and could speak from experience. The AgentGeneral should be asked to watch the markets in the old country, and to send out reports as to the kind of lamb which should

be bred for the English market. They found that a cross between ,the Shropshire and the crossbred would produce a lamb eminently suitable for the trade ; but, owing to the bad colour of some of the carcasses when they v;ere frozen, 4 per cent. or 5 per cent. were condemned at the meatworks. They had a yellow tinge right through the flesh, and were not acceptable for the London trade. At the same time, people were wondering why thP meatworks would not purchase merino iambs -·why they would not give the same price for a fat merino lamb as they gave for a fa L crossbred Shropshire lamb-but they were never told why the meatworks could not do it. The meatworks did not trouble to explain. The producers found, after many eYpensivc experiments, what kind of lamb to breed for the people on the other side of the world. The Agent-General's office could be used to obtain "information in regard Lo the la·nb industry which would be of great serviee. 'I'he report at present supplied had nothing of a constructive nature in it. They were always being asked by hon. members opposite for sonu~thing constructive. Seeing that the present Agent-General was at one time a promincDt member of the Government, and that his appointment, !iCcording t0 the hon. member for Bow<'n, was not by any rneans a political appointment, they rr.;qht have expected some constructive ideas fron1 him. This wa' the only report which the countrv ncople ever saw dealing with wh,"t was t£ki'ng place on the other side of the world, to which they were sending large quantities of their primary products. He appealed to the Premier to widen the scope o£ the AgE'nt-Gcneral's oflice, 'o as to assist the primary produccn of the St:tte, and enable tlw n to get the highest prices fol' their products.

He \lould "draw the attention of the .Secretary for Agricu:ture to the fact that, during the previous twelve months, the wealth produced in Australia was somewhere in the vicinitv of £298,000 000. Out of that amount, £223.000"000 came from primary prorluetion, ar.d £75.000,000 from secondary industries. He would urgo that. as soon as possiLlc, the scope of the Agent-General's office should be enbrged to meet the requirements of th""" State. He did not begrudge tlw expenditure of 1noncy 0~1 the ..._~gent~Gcneral's office in London in the work of ser uing the expert advice which they wanted.

He hoped that, when the Countrv party was on the other side o£ the House, they would sec prominent djrectors of co-operative companic::; going hon1e to England, say, every second ypar. to get acquainted with the 111arket there. In England there w£?re people who were p1·cpared to pay 2s. 6d .. 3s., and 5s. per lb. for but+cr which suited their palate, and the same prices would obtain for a cheese which suilcd their ta·"te. They had to appreciate the fact that Argentine was entering into emnpctition "F·ith Au~tralia in connC'rtion with wheat. meat. butter, cl1eese, and other primary products. Tho Argentine people were 'pencling huge sums of money t•1 get the class of cattle which would enable them to breed the kind of meat which was required in the consuming centres of the world-Great Britain and Euro:!e. If the Agent-General could help to bring about a rh."nge in method, so thClt their co-operative factories could turn out an article second to none in the wor Id, he a pp en led to the

kk J. H. C. Robcrts.]

918 Supply. [ASSE:.IIBLY.] Supply.

Secretary for Agriculture to ginl them assistance to iOhat end. He again expressed the hope that the Agent-General's reports would be sent out monthly or fortnightly.

Mr. BRENNAN (Toowoornba): The House was like a dentist's chair-hon. members ,opposite had the gas, and Government members had the pull. With regard to buttor, the Dar1ing Downs factories sent home representatives to check the work of some of the agents and to inquire into the qmcction of the distribution of Queensland products there. They had agents who could tell the factories in Queensland what butter was required for every county in England; but they must remember that maro-arine had taken a big hol·d in England. Hon. Inemb'::!rs oppo~ito said that the Agent-General's office should be in a positi01o to tell thorn all a bout these things, when they know that there were agents all over the world inquiring about Qu£ensla.nd products. The hon. member also spoke about lamb production in Queensland.

The hon. member for Pittsworth [9.30 p.m.] had a neighbour, named F. C.

Couper, who came frOin ~evv Zealnnd, and spent thousands of pounds in the Toowoomb11 district to try and grow fat lamb,, and brmg the industr" here to the standard it had reached in New Zeal11nd, but he failed. He found a yellow streak in the lamb. He ha.d told him (Mr. 13rennan) that the lamb industry >vo uld never be a success -in Queensland, and it was no use going on with it. Yet, the hon. member for Pittsworth told them they should go in for the growing of fat lambs of certain crossbrf'eding, He knew very well that he was

, wrong in sayin,g that. Ho (Mr. 13rennan) hn d discussed the matter with these people. The hon. member for Pittsworth came here and misled the House on every available occasion. He was not fair. The Government truly represented the farmers, and thn farmers to-day knew thev were better off under the Labour Govorr;'ment.

An OPPOSITION CliEMBER : What about Maranoa 7

Mr. BRENNAN: The manager of a cer· tain bank in Toowoomba had told him that before the drought broke thcv had fortv-five accounts which they were go-ing to wipe off the books; but, owing to the change in the seasons and the liberal treatment of this Government to the farmers, all those accounts had been kept on the books. The banking institutions in Toowoomba said this Government had given very good treatment to the farmers. 'mybocly who was fair must know that. If they took up the statute-book, they would see the number of Acts paswd bv this Government for the benefit of the farmers, They ~ad done wonderfully good things for the pr:mary producers. If they wont to any farmer and asked what his banking con-dition to-day w«s compared with 1914, he "ould tell them he was bette1· off under the Labour Government.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! The hon. g,_,ntleman must keep to the vote. That matter can b~ dealt with under the vote for the DepartclOC!lt of Agriculture and Stock.

Mr. BREI\TNAN: When they found their opponents speaking about the success of the Argentine, they know very well that lhe An;ontine had had millions of pounds poured into it by British capitalists. Australia could

[Mr. J. II. C. Ilobcds.

not get capital from Britain. All they wanted wa~. assistance from Australia to fight the war and preserve their interests. As soon as the war was over they put their capital into a foreign place and let Australia rip.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: He did not know whether the Agent-General's report was a justification for a full-dress debate on dairy products under this vote. Reading the report, there were t\\o verv significant items to which he desired to call attention. He was surprised that the hon, member for Drayton, and other hon. members, had not referred to them. They were subjectB to which he had referred t:me and again in that ChambN and on the public platform. First of all, the greatest danger to the dairying lnclu'-try was, not high wage> but margarine. On pages _3 and 4 of his report, the Agent-General said-

" It ma-, be added that the longer frcetrading conditions are postponed the greater is the opportunity. given to sub· stitutos, and the lease of hfe ,-ranted to the margarine industr:· by the h?lding of the British population under stnn'lent butter rn tioning has been a factor we:ghing heavily against the tr, de in the better nriic!e. Margarine is stakd now to comprise three-f]uarters of Great Britain's total consumption of edible fats."

H0 desired to emphasise that paragraph, a.ncl call the attention of the clairv farmers of Qno(msland to the fart th<Jt rnnrg d']no "as the greatest menace the ):lutter indust_ry had. He wanted to emphasFc the unfairness, the unjustness of the Imperial Govern· 111ent jn cansing tho Australian pro.rlU"C'l' to sell butter at considerablv less than its market value. That was shown by a paragraph on page 4, wh~:-re the Agc•nt-G<-'neral made use of theoe words-

" The butter purchase arrangement made bv the Imperial Government in 1918 with the Amtrrrlian and New Zealand Governments for two seasons' supply ha •·ing c<Jme to an end in the pori od under re,-iow a rene""''~·al was necessary under the co'ntinued conditions of con· trol. It was remarked b:c- trade authori. tics in this country that the two years' purchase referred to, which was achieved at only 175s. per cwt. f.o.b. for Australian· butter, and 181s. for N c '" Zealand supplies, must have been one of the most profitable purchases undert •ken by the ::\iinistry of Food, and, seeing that sales to the trade here ended up with the rate of 330s. 4d. per C" t. ruling for the last ha!f-voar or so, the truth of this remark is re~lised. The price of 270s. was paid by the Ministry of Food to the Danish Butter Export Committee for butter supplied in the early part of the past year, and. finally, a more equitable rate with the British Dominions was arranged lato1· in the year. when the purchase price was fixed at 280s. per cwt. for Now Ze,tland, and 274s. f01' Australian butter. It should be noted that, whereas the quali tv of butter from the two Em pi re source's mentioned has been kept at a most satisfactory level, that of the putch and Danish imports has given nse to much adverse comment."

That was dealing with the quality. He desired to emphasise it for th~ benefit of

Supply. f23 SET'TE~IBER.] Supply. 919

members of the Country party, who were continnallv talking about the way this Government treated the producers of butter in the early part of the war with regard to fixing the price of butter. Those hon. members never. under any cir.cumst :..nces. referr-ed to the fact to which attention had been ca!lcd by the Agent-General-that the A ustralian producer was paid as much as 155s. per cwt. less than the price at which the butter was so:d to the consumers. While they wore just as loyal in Australia as were those in any other part of the Empire, the Australian producer of butter v,·as E'ntitled to the world's markd price for butter during the war. He des;red to enter that protest again, and to call the attention of the Au,tralian butter producers to the fact that, if they were robbed at' all, it was under the Imperial contract so far as the sale of butter was concerned.

Mr. MOO RE (A 1ll>i(fn•;) : The Minister had made the eam0 old misstatements which they had had at every election since the Imperial GoYernment had come to the rescue of the dairy prodncers of Australia \\hile the war was on. They knew perfectly well that the Imperial Government made an agreement Yoiuntarily with the producers of butter in this and othe!' States of Australia. Those poop!o '"otdd have continued the contract if they could have done •o. They wore not able• to do it, because the British Government had decided to free butter from control. The British GoYernment took all the risks of gcttiug the butter home. The producers were paid before deliverv into cool stores, a1:d they were very glad 'to get it.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC1:LTl:RE : Why did you not demand more?

. Mr. MOORE : They were very glad to get 1t, because there was a great risk of this butter not getting home. The whcle risk "as talc en by the British GoYernment. Any amount of it remainod in cool stores here for practically twelve monthe. They did not seize thl' butter, as the Qlleensland Government had done, at their own price. TheY did not fix a price in Queensland ·that th.e producers were to take for their butter, which was less than they could have got over the border in New South Wales. They came out and made a voluntary purchase from the directors of the whole of the butter companies in Au,tralia. It was most unfair that theY should havE' a Minister of the Crown trying to belittle the British Goyernment for coming· to the rescue of the dairy pro· ducors of Amtralia when the war was on. They knew perfect!} well that the British Government did come to their re·cue, and, if they had not come to their rescue and made the contract with the dairy producers of Australia. and ·ent the money to pay for the butter, the producers would have been in queer street. The dairy industry would have do·•od down; and now they had the Secretary for Agriculture, whose business it was to try and encourage the dairy industry in Queensland, getting up and defaming the Britieh Government for practically saving the industry. All the Queensland Government did was to commande,-,r the butter at prices lower than could be obtained for it in Victoria, and they had the S'ecretary for Agriculture at the time proudly getting up and saying, "I am the butter king of Australia," while at the same time he made the greatest bungle of the whole business that was possible.

Mr. GREEN (Townsrille): Thev all recognised that the Agent-General's Department was one of the most important in the State. He did not wish to say anything detrimental concerning the ability of the present_ AgentGeneral; but, if there was one po3!tJOn c~nncctcd with the administration of the affaus of the State of C:ueensland that should be kept free from political interference and not be made a political appointment, it was the position of Agent-General. No ·doubt, hon. nwmbcn on 'the GoYcrnment side of the House would say that in years gone by other Governments . h·ad made political <1ppomtmcnts; but that did not a1h1r the fact that it was a wrong thing to do, and now was the time to mend matters. Because other GO\·ornments had failed in the past, it w~s no reason why this Governme;1t should fa1l now. Unfortunately, the appomtment of the commercial Agent-General in London was made a political one. It was _l~okcd upon r.s a nice easy position for a pohtJCJan whose usrfulne-s in tho Howe liad ceaccd.

The PRE~IIER: \Yhat have you to say about the appointment of the High Comrni--sioner?

l\Ir. GREEl'J: The Con1n1onwealth ~overn~ rru:;:,t '"as to be blamed for the appomtmcnt of a political Hig·h Commissioner. The H1gh Commissioner,hlp should not bo g1vcn to a 1nan because he happcneu to be a su~ceS·:3ful politician, as he might be a grc":t fa.lure as a bu,iness man. It was the bmme··s of the commercial AgPnt-General to advance the interests of the Commonwealth or to advance the interests of the State of Qucomland, and it was absoluteh· essential for the prospenty of Queensland that he should be a man who was able to impress upon those closely connected with the home markets the advantage of buyino- products from Australia or from Queensla~d. Queensland's prosperity. ?epended upon her exports. If they were gomg to import more than they export~d. the!'they were going to get_ into financ:al d;ffi· cultios as a people, and, mstead of prospenty, there would be stagnation. It was absolutely ""entia! that the pro·ducts of Queensland should be placed before. the people on _the other side of the world m the best poss1ble manner. Kat only should the exporters and producers work togeth:r with the Ag~_ntGenern I to see that the nght class of matenal, and that of the best quality, was SBJJ~ home, in order that the homo markets m>ght be imprcs,ed with what c_ould be produced here, but it was also ess<>ntral, now that they ~ad State enterprises. that those State enterpnses should see that the quality of the goods sent was up to the samples. That had nut always been the case. H" understood the difliculty had been oYorcome, but they knew, m connection with tinned pineapples, that the samples sent were beautifully tinned, '.'-nd when thev were opened they were b··au!Iful samples; "but, when a ma:·ket ;Yas obtamed and the goods were supphed, :t w_as found that the tins contained only small prneapples or pieces of pineapples, and the State lost the credit which they sh01:ld have_ had for beino- able to produce trnned pmcapples equal to any place in the world.

The TREASFRER : All that is corrected now. Mr. GREEN: He was pleased to hear the

Treasurer say that it was all corrected. If there was one thing they wanted to fight shy of, it was getting a name such a_s thnrr neighbours, the Japanese, got durrng ~he war, of supplying goods that were nothmg like the samples sent. Then they had that

JJf1'. Orccn.]

920 Supply. [ASSEl\ffiLY.] Suppty.

unfortunate shipment of cheese that went home. He did not know who was to blame for that-whether it was tho"e who sold tho cheese or whether it was the co-operative factories. The Government should have 'ulft cient control over what was exported to s,,e that nothing left the State that would btinadiscredit on the fair name of Queensland and on j he products of Queensland. The AgentG oneral should be a commercial agent in every sense of the word, and he should got in close touch with the markets, not only in Great Britain, but also on the Continent. The hon. member for LeichhaNlt referred to the gem market, and state-d that Queensland was not getting credit for the gems she actual!;,· produced and sent overseas. The Agent-General should see that such a state of affairs as that did not exist, and he hoped, now that the question of finance had been removed from the department. that the Agent-General and his department would give more attention to the impmtant business of developing the trade of Queensland with other pmtions of the Empire and the world.

They had been told by tho Premier that the financial arrangements had been removed from the Agent-General; and they had also heard from the hon. member for Oxley what it had cost Queensland for exchange, because they had been cut off, unfortunately, from the monev markets on the other side of the world.• He had pointed the matter out in his speech on the no-confidence motion and also on the Address in Reply, and the hon. member fer Oxley had given him practically the exact figures as to what the co--t to the State had been up to the present time.

The TREASURER: I gave them to you myself, and they are exactly about half what you would have to pay for your exchange.

Mr. GREE:\': It might be just half as much, became, if the State GoYcrnment, with the large amounh they had to send overseas, could not an-ange to r,:et exchang0 at half the rate a private penon would have to pay, then it w'" run very poorly as a busin<:3s concern But c•• en if it were half what it might haYc been, would it not have been far better if it were nil' And it couiJ be nil.

:cllr. PEASE: Then you wouid have to pay th• cost of floating the loan.

The 'l'RE.\SURER: >. ou >Yould haYo to pay the ro.st <Jf g'iving thorn our po\veri3 cf Government.

Mr. GHEE:\': That •.vas a very old chestnut, of which they -, .. •.re Yory tired. It lu:d boon said that, perhaps, Victc.ria e.n l ot:wr States v.-erc in the cnme position as Queensland ww-;, but in that afternoon's paper the~T found this paragraph-

" Hon. vV. M. J'dcPheroon (Trcl.surer of Victoria) arrived h.' the RM.S. 'Q;'Jdonde.' He said that the financial po~ition in England ,,~as becoming increasingly scr~ou;:;. Tho VictoriHn Govrrnntcnt, howovrr, \Yero grati led at the reception givon by Londo11 financiers to tlw loan propos:tls. ThCl'e wae no difficulty in getting th'"' loan·,;; underwritten, because Victoria's credit stood '"'10 high."

It \\as to be regretted that the credit of Queensland did not stand so hig.h in financial circles on the other side of tht'' ''"orld, because such a standing would assist materially to develop this State, bring prosperity, am! check the growing unemployment.

They had great opportunities for opening 11p markets in the East, and the Government

[Mr. Gr-Mn.

might be able to do eomething in opening up markets in Java, the Federated Malay Statez, and China. When they realised that they were 2,000 miles nearer to Japan and to China than America, and that millions of people there were crying out for their products, surely there was scope for their ability and energy in supplying those markets. Their bocon and ham curing factorioe sent their stuff to Java and the Fe·deratc-d Malay States, and during the war Jones and Company practically got the whole of the Eastern market for conserves. He hoped thnt they would not only be able to retain that trade, but also to develop it, and, if the department thnt controlled the .\gent General's office could do anything in th.)"t rP-~poct, it woul·d he doing a great serviec to the State of Queensland.

Mr. FRY (l{U1·i1pa): Reading the AgentGencr,'_d's report, one \.vould come to, the conclu8;on thct the Australian people had become indolent; but that wa•. not the case. The_v knoY• that the Australian worker WJ'&

one of the best in the world, and, on the whole, more intelligent and more reliable than others. The .\ustrali;,n Imperial Forces advertio,ed Australia, and the products of her primary industrib, shmnd that the claso of work dDne in her S•Gcondarv indu:3tries was seconcl to none in thr world~ '\Vhat was the Agent-General doing to maintain the high reputation that was gained for their goods in London? Was he purely a representativeof the Governn1ent acting as a buying agent,. or was he asserting himself in the direction of making markets for their goods? They rnust, as a Governn1ent. cxorrise every function they possessed and all the brains they had in creating markets for their goods. They had to advert'~e. and the Agent-General in the hub of the world >Yas in the position h1 do it, if he had the ability. If he were> spurrc·cl on b,· the Gm·ernmont he would a>•ert himsdf in that direct'on. They had thn whole world to drol with. Thcv hnd been t0ld that they did rot ta 1k enough·.,bout Qucemland and Australia. That was tme. 'Ihrv could talk there about their products w'thout anv fear of contradiction, and was tl·_at nOt a" snfficiPnt et trting p.Jint f<Jr the -"-~.g--nt-General? They were LJ\in17 about onttling men on the land, but the GovernInePt \Verf• not opening up E.Larkct.; for their fOOd- rrhcy ·were i 1Jking about \VOl'k for the unemployed. and sta;.·ting factorjes fo1· the lllirpnsc, but tbey \HH'e not opening· up the '<·orl·l's markets for their products. The GoYernment, ar•cusocl the O>Jpo.sition of advo«at;ng low I,Y:-tgts. whiC'h the;~ knew ,,·as perfc,ctlv untrue. There had been no mention b,v lnen1bers on that ~-idc of rr-dn< ing -.,,·1gcs. The la rourer was worthv d hi, hirA. If he gave good work he "·as 'entit1r·d to gPt good pav; lmt, if he was not going to pla;: the gaiTie, hn had. to h-. dr:a~f. •Yith jn another "'IV. Thev thrl o:h rr•<tc ehc.oper means of nrOdnring·,~ and, as he h~Hl sai<l be;ore. if thr·V used the l·osoun·cs they har1 at tholr -r\iepo--'11 to create cheaper power, thev would be helping- to solve the proble n. Eig-ht from tho North to the South they had areas where thev coulr! collect water and create power foJ' industrial purposes.

The CHAIR MA:\': Order! I would like to point out to the hon. momlwr thrrt water conservation doPo not come within the --cope of the vote for the Agent General.

Mr. FRY: H affected very largely the qucetion o£ a trade commissioner, and the

Supply.

Ac-ent-Gonoral should be a trade commissioner, and it was all linked up with the question of unemployment. If they had cheaper pmver, they could produce goods at less c~st, and the Agent-General would be able to say to the >Yorld, "Not only can we give you good and reliable goods made by reliable men, but we can also give them at a price that will pay you." If the AgentGeneral was not a trade commiesiGner, and "a' nGt doing those things, he was only doing half his job; and, if he v;.as only doing half his job, that was ono reasGn why a politician -hould not be appointed to the pGsition. They had the means to produce an;:thing. \Vhat was the Agent-General doing tG help them develop their fields? Was ho booeting the forest-? Was he doing all he could to entice money out here to develop the mines which require-d to he worked? \Vas t,hc Government giving oncourag·ement to the people tG develop them' \Vhv were their workshops standing idle? vV as the Agent-General doing everything he could to create markets so that the:- could be kept ·working? It is no use ap7~ointing an ~-\gent-

General in Loudon if he >vas not [10 p.m.] a commercial agent at the same

time. Qurf'nsland was crying out for ccono'llV. Thcv did not lrant to C'ut do\vn tho Agent-General's salary, but they wanted him to earn tw-ice as much as he was earning to-day. It was not always the best economy to reduce a man's ,~:ages. It v, as nece"lsary for the Agent General to got a spurt on and talk about Queensland, and boom Queensland in every posoible "ay, and do his utmost to help the State along. The AgPnt-Gene1·oJ, in hi,-; speech before the Hoval Society. se id Queensland was a land flow]ng with m.ilk and honey, '"hjch was rig·ht. 1-Ic also referred to their mines and f.elds. Thev had hon. members of that Co'nmittoo '~ho could quote poetry by the mile. but could do nothing else. They were port~ in tbcir way, but thPy were not >VGrker, who put their brains to the best intcrc~ts of the Statt'. Qu,-·'nsland hcd got a sbrt. It had cost manr millions of pounds to g·ct the ,t~rt that »~s given b<' the Australian Imperi,,l Force.".. and the Af!ent· General f'hon1d l:uild n;• the rClJutation th0y had got during th1· v ar for the cb·,s of g·oods that thev wore ahk kl manufactnrr. and for the cap;b;I'ties of the State to produce what the >Yorld required.

HoNOURABLE ME11BERS: Hear, hear ! Que-stion put and pa -sed.

AUDIT OFFICE.

The PREMIER moYed-That £15,349 be granted for "Audit Office."

Mr. VOWLES (JJuliJy}: This >vas pmbably one of tho n1ost irnportant office~, and the office responsib'e for the delay of the Auditor--G~neral's rcrort. He would ask the Prc micr if thev were certain to get that report on the 4th October. It was impossible to criticise in any rc~·<Jnable v .. ray th~ figures of various depart nent'< w·ithout the reports of the Auditor-General and of the various depart-nent'. It was a most unfair thing, if he might say so, for the Auditor-General's report to be held back, Gr at least, that it was not available. Ho hau pointed vut tG the Premier that in New South \Vales thP Tr0asurer absolutely declined to go on with the Estimates until the repQl't was available.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER: Quite right.

Supply. !l2l

Mr. VOWLES: If tho Premier was in Opposition, he would realise the impossi>:>iiit,y of dealing with these matters withGut the report.

'The PREMIER: He had already told the hon. gentleman that the Auditor-Genera.! hod informed him that the report would be a.vailable about the 4th October, but he could not guarantee the date. He had informed the hon. member for Dalbv on more than ono oeea-.iGn that the Chief Secretary's Department ha·d nG control Gvcr the AuditorGeneral in the prep a ration or the presentation of his report. The Auditor-GeGeral had free and unfettered discretion in the matter.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Why not adjourn the Ilouse until we get it '!

'The PREMIER: Was the hon. member willing to pa "" Supply and go into recess for six mGnths?

:\lr. ELPHINSTONE: That is your game.

'The PREMIER: The hon. g-entleman by that suggestion admitted hl'!; inexperience or inability tG deal with the Treasurer's figures or the Esti1nates, un'oss the ::LfJUn1enb were put into his hands by the Auditor-General's report.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Silly.

The PREMIER: If from tho information available in the Treasurer's tables, the Trea. surer's Financial Statement, and the necess:J.ry returns pub1ished every n1onth and every quarter, tho hon. gentleman was unable to frame an argument again,t the Government, he was only exhibiting his own lack of knowledge on the matter. Any one who had to wait until he received the AuditorGeneral's report before he could frame an argument against the Government had no case at all.

Mr. FLETCHER !Port Curtis): He recognised that the Auditor-General might have some difficnlty in bringing- in his report as early as that, but the Govcr•1ment shoukl hGld the Estimates back until the report was available so that thev could deal with them srrti5factcrilv. The l\lini' ter for State Enter· prises, }n ar13wcring his (Mr. Fletcher's) questions thut afternoon, had stated that ho cast a reflection on the Auditor-General. He wished distinctlv to state that he (Mr. Flet. eher) did not do so. So far as 'he knew, the Auditor-Goreral did his work in a very satisfactory manner. The qucdions hr had asked the ·Minister were clear, and the Minister had oquivac "•ted and prevaricated with a view to misleading the public.

HoN. W. FORGAN SMITH: He rose to a point of arder. vVas the hon. mombcr for Port Curtis in order in rlelnting a quest;Gn that was not before the Committee? The question·' he had asked that afternoon were all disposed of. and the fallacies of the hon. member effectively expo•!ld.

The CHAIRMAN: The han. member can only refer to the ite"l1S in thi; vote. . He cannot refer to an~- matter out,Jde Gf 1t.

Mr. FLETCHER: He on!!' wi ·bed to clear himeelf of the aspm',ion of the Minister that ho bed cast a reflection on the AuditorGeneral.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member could do that on th" vote for State Enterprises.

Mr FLETCHER: The Auditor-General dealt. with the accounts, but nGt with the actual deliveries of cattle.

llfr. Fletcf,:.L3

9"" Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member can-net discuss the matter further. He can discuss it on the proper vote.

Mr. FLETCHER: He did not cast any reflection on the Auditor-General. He regretted that the Chairman would not allow him to de"! with the matter, as he considered the matter of great importance.

The CHAIR:l1AN: Order l I would like the hon. member not to misunderstand me. There is a time and a plaec for dealing with ail these matters, and that is on the proper vote. The ton. member will have a full opportunitv of dealing with the matter on the v'Jte 'for State Enterprises. He cannot deal \Vith it on this vat~.

Mr. FLETCHER: He would defpr anv further remarks he had to make till they came to the vote for " State Enterprises."

Mr. ELPHINSTONE (Oxley): In suggesting that the Estimates might be postponed until the Auditd1:-ti-L1Cral's report wa:; available, he implied that the Committee should know what was taking place in the Government departments. They had been endea.vou 1·ing by quo'"'tions to ascertain 'vhat wa.s transpiring, but hitherto they had met with very little succecs. When a company held its anr::qal meeting and the shareholders assembled to hear the directoh' report, that report \Yas alwa> ;<; .2ccon1pa!1iod by th~~ auditors' repori. That was the position here to-day. They were reprcsectatives of the shareholders in Queensland, and were endeavouring to ascertain for them v . .rhat "ts the po' it ion of the finances of the State. and, to support their arguments, they 11 anted to know what the Auditor-General had to say about them~a most reasonable and logical attitude. When they objected, the PrP nier, with his condescending manner, waved them aside as being ignoramuses and entirely deficient of a!! knowledge of finance. wh;ch only confirmed their opinion that the Estimates should be deferred until they had the Auditor-General's report. In previous years, in his short experience in Parliament, that report had thrown the light of day on many tranqctions which no politician, however capable he might be, could have found out without the aid of the report. They had good grounds for assuming that, when the report came out th's year, they would h 1ve an oven more astounding disclosure, and that was why they were desirous of having tl:e report before them when considering thu E~timates.

Quc,tion put and passed.

CQ}DIISSIONER OF PRICES.

The PREMIER moYed~That £3.742 be granted for "Commissioner of ,Prices."

Mr. VOWLES (nalby) : This department was est a blishod when the prices of ordinary commodit:es were abnormal; but during the last tv elvo months they had become more normal. and the questio~ arose as to whether there was any neeeb,ity to carry on the department at a cost of £3,742 to the verv persons who were being penalised in respec-t of their products. The report of the C'·cmmissioner was all r;ght as far ns it went, and stated the co,.nmodities for which prices had been fh:cd. On 1st ~tnril the Commis,ioner relinquiohed his coPtrol of butter, and the Butter Pool Committee voluntarily reduced

[Mr. Fletcher.

the price to the public from 238o. to 196s. per cwt.; so that it would seem that the Commissioner was either not co npctcnt to dwll with the bu .. im•,s, or that he did not understand it. In connection with kerosene a 1d benzine, two commoditic~ which had to be imported, ard which were subject to the law of supp:y and den1and, the Com1nissioncr fuund that he was unable to fiY. prices. He had to admit to the Housewives' Association recently, when they waited upon him to object to the price of bnttcr being increasJd by 2d. per lb. by the butter producers. that he had preYiou .ly fixed the price of the art'cle below the cost of production. The butter industry was one of the biggest industries in Quoensla•d. and might have been crippled altogether by this governmental interference. 'l_lhe necessity for abolishing the offirP was shown in the report of the Commissioner himself, on page 4~

" \Vh(~ll the Profitecring Preycntion Act of 1920 first came into operation, the Ci."t of foodstuffs a :d other groceries was h'gher, and is now lower, in Queensland than in any other State. On the 30th JunP, 1920, the an1ount nccc,~sary to purchase these com·noditics was 4ls. 4d. in Brisbane as against 2'ls. ~d. in 1911. On the 30th June. 1921. this 1920 amount was reduced to 36,. 8d. The Commonwea:th Statistician's report for the month ending 30th June. 1921. compered with the corresponding month of 1920. shows the following percentage dccrcc,se in the cost of fcod and g-roceries in each State : ~Qm-cnsland, 15.0 per cent.; South Australia, 14.3 per cent."

I-Ic c.ould not see that this department had sen-cd any usdul purpo'e. There might have been a tirne when it wa~ justified to some extent. but it had outlived :ts usefulness. The prices of com1nodities were beginning to level thcmseh·es. and sh~uld b~ left alone. They were told on page 3 of the report~

"Though there ha9 been a very considerable decreas~ in the value of sto~k. it was generally found necessary to reduce the price of meat bv 'Gazette' notice, or tO take so1ne oth8r act~on in order that the public should be able to obtain meat at a price corresponding with the reduetion in the cost of cattle."

Thev had to realise that the bv-produrts were not of much value, and to take that into consideration in connection with the price o£ meat~

"However, in places where State shops were established, the butchers generally reduced their charges voluntarily."

He could give the Minister a case where e-xactly the opposite to that hanpened. A fortnight ago, when he "as in Toowoomba, h,, found th'tt the pri.-ate butchers were sellin[( at a lesser price than the State butcher's shop.

Hon. IV. FoRGA~ S:mTH: Even supposing that is true, the .competition of the State shops has resulted in the people getting cheaper meat. If you go into other towm where there are no State butchers' shops, you will find that the prices are higher.

Mr. VOWLES : If the Commiss'oner fixed prices applying to those towns, he should have inspectors to see tho t the prices were

Supply [:!3 SEPTEMBER.]

a dh~re.d to. In a town not very far from Toowoomba the butchers wPre charcrinO' 50 per cent. more than the butchers :n 'i'oo\Voon1ba were charging.

Hon. \Y. FoRGAN SMITH: '<Vhy is that?

Mr. VOvVLES: Because there was no super· ,-ision, ancl the proclamations were honoured in the breach. It was only in the cities where there was a big vote. th<1t the Govc·rn: ment tYoro u~irg the Com;nissinn-er for their own: political purpose~. \Yhere t-he proclarnatJons app1wd to country towns th(~ inspcc~ tors were permitting the retailers to sell their stuff at prices above the procla1nat~Dn. The:( had. b< .,n doing that practically sincPthe Inception or th1s department. He could not s~-~e an:v ju:;;ti:Gcation for a r-;ntinuance of the dcpcrtmcnL There was too much departmental interferonct:. There 1night have been a time when it \\>S just'ficd, but that time· b ·cl ; zpired. It never had been justifier!. .<::o ftr as prirnar:v products 1vere concerr e-1. Tho nrodue<ers ·hould get the prop<er market value for their products, and the law of supply and demand should regulate it.

Mr. POLLOCK (Cht.flnrlt): The leader of the Oprosition rhould Ii.uYC gmw to the Corn~ 1ni~sioner and 1111-de these u,.n 1_d:lint ....

1\fr. VoWLES: And be called a "pimp," I wppose.

Mr. POLLOCK: Kot at all. It ''"as part of the hon. Tnen1ber's duty as a n1ember of Parliament.

Hon. W. FoRGAN SMITH: The Commissioner j, th~re to protect the public.

Mr. POLLOCK: If the duties of a rnemhcc of Parlialnent, according to the hon. men:bcr. did not lie in the direction of pro·~,ecbng the pubhr, _he rr1ust have a queer idea of ·what lus parliamentary functions ,vere. \Vhnt YYas he there for if it were not to report these thing- to the proper aurl1oritic'? If laws "·ere to b8 administered properly, they had to be administered bv someone and if the inforn1ation was to i)e obtained ''0n1eone n1u~t. give it. \\rh en a 1nern bcr of ParE«n1ent rl'ccived from anv of his con~tituents information _that the j-udgments and rulings of the Cmnn11s"ioner for Prices \VerP being· flouted. his first object should be to iLform the Commissioner and if the Commissioner failed to take' action he should 'dmplain in the B ouse. IIe had had similar <;ascs to thoce of the hon. m ern ber for Dalby. He had gon,, to thu Commissior,cr m1d cr>nlplainl'd that various rctailcL" \vcre ovcr.charg·:r~g, and t~1e Co:ntni~sioner had ahYays told lmn that m tbos_e matters the public >rmst be thou· own pohcc. The public were buyir~g from the retailer, and thcv had most to gain by ceeing that the proclaimed prices were observed. If the public would not protect themsrlvcs they cl·d not deser'-7 2 t,o have 1nier>s fixed for thorn. The Com1nission,;r on a L nu mher of occas'ons ha,rl told him th.1t ho c"uld write to any of the papers in his constituency and point out that on anv occasi~;n when price lists were fonvarded "fro1n any to\vn showing that hi2,·hcr prices wore.. bein~ d1arged than were allowed, he would take action. No one could have been fairer than that. Th~ leader of the Opposition rna de a strong pomt of the Government havin&( interfered t<;o muc)l in tho&e matters. Then he came a,ong vnth a yarn about the Government not interfering because they had not sufficient inspectors.

Mr. VowLES: They are not administering it.

Mr. POLLOCK: He did not know what th" hon. gentleman wanted.

Mr. VoWLES: You are too dense to understand it.

Mr. POLLOCK : If the hon. gentleman would tell his ccnstituriJt~ or tho ne\V''papers in his conetitnon<'v "h,,t the real purpo3e of the Price Fixing Con1misi~on "r was. he ~<vou]d lv' aLle to have the matter remedied in no time. It was obvious th,·t the hon. memLcr had haJ lot ten,. from yarlous constituent~, and had ~aYed tnmn up so as to n1ake political capital out of them. •1 nv lWUl Y':ho had gone to tho Comrn~'"lionrr had rcccivcc.l rourtcsy . and s:1tisfaction. IIo \Yas hop:ng the publre would wake Locl to th9 fact th<lt it was their interests that were b' ing protecte-d by !h<e fixation of pri ·cs. and thot they should ass1st the CommissiOner in his adn1inistrat1on.

:Mr. ELPIHNSTOxE: The Secretary for Agriculture does not think so.

Mr. POLLOCK: He was not concern &cl a bout what the Secretary for Agriculture thought.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUHE: I am not concerned. either, about ,drat tho hon. rnomber for Grcgory says on thL" point.

:\Ir. POLLOCK: Ho was not concerned ,., ith what anybody said, whether it was the Secretary for Agriculture or anyone else.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: The Minister is souncl<er in his views on that poin-t than you arc.

Mr. POLLOCK: He did not accept the hon. member as an authoritv on soundness in any matter. Any Governn;ent who set out to appoint a number of inspectors to superYiFe O\'erv award and overv Act which was passed would simply have the State over-run 'vith inspectDrs.

An OPPOSITION ME>IBER: It is over-run with them now.

Mr. POLLOCK: Then why did the leader of the Opposition claim they had not sufficient inspectors under this department?

1\Ir. VowLES: They do not do their work.

Mr. POLLOCK: The public had itself to protect, and it should be ib own inspector.

Mr. MOORE: I-Ic disagreed with the office of Price Fixing Commissioner, and did not think it ought to be ke1Jt on any longer.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. MOORE: It might have been useful during the war, but that time had passed. At the present time, when the who]e,alor reduced his prices, it was all over the town in a.bout an hour, and uext morning the Corn1nissioner fixed tho san1e arnount and claimed the credit. The last thing for which the price was fixed w:ts chewing gum. (Laughter.) They had neYer hoard of anything like it-the Price Fixing Co:nmis ioner declaring chewing gum to be a necessary commodity. He object:ed to the app.ication of the principle to primary products. When price-fixing took plnce it was dictated by the Govcrnrnent. The Ministry n1ade suggestions to the Commissioner as to what he ought to do

Mr. GILDAY: You must have dreamt that.

Mr. MOO RE: At the opening of the Crow's Nest show the Secretary for Agriculture, according to the Darling Downs paper, said that they found to their surprise

Mr. Moor<:.J

Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

that, while the farmers earned every penny they got, the grocers of Brisbane were makin6 4d. per lb. on butter sold over the counter. The hon. gentleman said he did not think that was fair, and suggested that 1d. a lb. should be taken from the grocer and given to the farmer.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Quite right.

Mr. MOORE: Was not that political inter· ference? Was not that what they had alwaye had? When a Minister of the Crown suggested to a public servant that he ought to do something, he did it, because if he did not, he would have to get out.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : I simply called attention to what the Federal Government failed to do.

Mr. MOORE: He objected to any political influence. Tha.t was what they a.1wa.ys obj ectcd to. The la.st time the Estima t0s were on the Opposition had made a great fuss in connection with the primary indu·tries.

The PREMIER: You made a fuss about ma.ny things.

Mr. MOO RE: They had made so much of a fuss that the Government decided to take butter a.nd cheese out of the ha.nds of the Price Fixing Commissioner.

At 10.30 p.m., The CHAIRMAN sa.id: 'Cnder Sta.nding

Order Ko. 306, I must now leave the cha.ir and make my report to the House.

The HoME SECRETARY (to Mr. Moore): You go behind my ba.ck to the Home Depa.rtment and use politica.l ini!ucnce. You ought to be the last to talk about political influence!

Mr. J\1oORE: I will talk about wha.t I like.

The HOME SECRETARY: You ought to be the last to ta.lk about political influence.

Mr. MoORE: Have you any charge to make against me'!

The HO>IE SECRETARY: You arc making a charge againFt a public servant. No one ought to complain less about it than you.

:Mr. MORGAN interjected. The Ho:\IE SECRETARY: \Yhy did you paint

that horse? ::\lr. MonGAN: I will paint your face if

you say that out·ide, young and all as you are.

The House resumed. The CHAIU:.IAN re-ported progress, and asked lea vc to sit again.

Mr. MoRGAN (to the Home Secretary): You arc only a big cur-a big mongrel.

The SPEAKER: Order! Order !

Mr. M oRGAN (to the Home Secrctar})' You ar-e a big mongrel.

The SPEAKER: Order ! That expression must be withdra\>n.

J\11-. l\IORGAN: I will onlv withdraw it on conditicn that the Home Secretarr withdraws what he said about myself; otherwise I will not.

The H02.1E SECRETAHY: I withdraw anything I said about the hon. member.

Mr. M ORGAN: Then I withdraw. The resu:11ption of the Committee was made

an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

The House adjourned at 10.32 p.m.

[.Mr. Moore.

Anzac Day Bill

Documents

Legislative Assembly FRIDAY SEPTEMBER