Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

THURSDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 1915

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Appropriation Bill No. 3. Ill NOVEMBER.] Standing Rules and Orders. 1985

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

THcRSDAY, 11 NOVEMBER, 1915.

The PRESIDI:KG CHAIRMAN (Hon. W. F. Taylor) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

APPROPRIATION BILI, No. 3. ASSENT.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN announced the receipt from the Deputy Governor of .a messap:e <;onveying His Excellency's assent to this Bill.

1915-6 F

SUSPENSION OF STAKDING RULES AXD ORDERS.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. W. Hamilton), in moYing--

" That ""' much of the Standing Rules 1nd Orders be ;uspended ·as would other­wi~e preclude the pc:.<sing of a Bill in­tituled a Bill to refer certain matters to the Parliament of the Commonwealth for the duration of the pre"ent war, and £or a periDd of twe!Yo months after the ccnclu;;iDn of p<>.acc, through all ;#s stag·es in one day,"

said : It will be within the knowledge of hon. members that a certain agreement has been arrivNl at between the Commonwealth auihorities and the Premiers of the States to ·defer the taking of a poll on the referenda questions until after the v.·ar, and that .a Bill 6boukl be introduced in the State Parlia­mcmts dealillg with the question. It is imperative that that Bill should be passed at the earlic~t possible moment. It is only a yery short. nH~asure.

HoK. A. G. C. HA WTHORK: This i5 a ma~ter wh1ch requires more careful cor>.­sideration than we can give to it in one day. (H< ar, hear !) The hon. gentleman saye it is only a sJmJll Bill, and that it merely pro­rc,,es to defer the taking of the ref<ere11da until tv eh-e month' aft<er the clasP of tlw war. It is a great deal more than that. I question really whether we should be asked to rush the Bill through under the suspensiGn of the Standing Orders. \Ve have -done t~Jat in the past in cases of urg<ency, but I do not think this a matter of urgenCJ. I notice that th<e Premier of Victoria intimated that m that State the Bill would be brought in this \Vf'ok, but no ~atten1pt ""~vould be made to makP any further progress until next ~' eek. That is the attitude that should be adopted in tho Queensland Parliament tD-da:c. The poll on the referenda questions has been suspended for the present, mainly, as far as I m see, bceause the Federal Government found that they would not be able to carry them. (Hear, hear!) In order to save the situ:ttion, they got the State Premiers to­getlwr, and it may be merely a coincidence, but th0ru hao been a good deal of talk about a £10,000,000 loan being arranged.

Hon, P. J. LEAHY: A kind of bribe.

Ho:-;r. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I will not say it is a bribe. I confine myself to ooying that it is a coinc~dence.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : It will be &

welcome coincidence if we get it.

HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: The Pre­miers have agreed to give to the Common­wealth Government, in an indirect way, what the !tetter >Yere afraid to ask the country to give them directly. (Hear, hear!) \Yhether the Council will pass the Bill even­tually I cannot tell; but it is a matter of such serious moment that we ought t-o follow the orclmary procedure adopted in passing legi;]ation through this Chamber. The pro­pnsaJ mean~ practically that we are going to give the Fe.deral Government, for the period of the war and for twelve months afterwards, nearly all that they were asking· under the referenda questions. We are going to hand over to them a very large· portion of our authority over trade and commerce. We are going to hand over to.

Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn.]

1986 Suspension of Standing [COUNCIL.] Rules and Orders.

them not our railways themselves, but the, control of the railway employees, which practically means the same thing. \V e are going .to hand over to them the settlement of all industrieJ disputes and generally the whole question of the maintenance of pe,ace between employers and employees through­out the Commonwealth. It is practically another link in the long chain of Federal encroachments upon State rights that has been going on ever since federation. (Hear. hear!) If the Commonwealth get control of these matters for the next two or three years, when they bring the referenda ques­tion along again they may very fairly say, "We have had these powers for two or three years, and that is a very good reason whv \\'OU should let us keep these powers for eve'r.'' The merit:; of the proposal I do not intend to enter into to-day. I will only say that I think this is a question that should be considered deliberately by the members of the Council-(hcar, hear !)-and that the Bill should be r~ad a first time to-day, and the second readmg made. an Order of the Day for to-morrow or for Tuesd-ay next. There is no urgency about the business. Victoria is going to take the course I sug­gest, and I think we cannot do better than follow their lead.

HaN. G. S. CURTIS: I concur entirely with what has just been said by the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn. Considering this involves a further transfer of the autonomy of the States to the Commonwealth, this is a matter of the very highest importance.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : It is only a temporary transfer.

HoN. G. S. CURTIS: It is a matter that should not be dealt with in a hasty way. As the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn pointed out, if we agree to the Bill the likelihood is that it will mean the permanent transfer of theile powers to the Commonwealth. The proposal involves an alteration in the fundamental law of the Commonwealth, and for that reason it requires the most careful considera­tion. Once the States transfer these powers of self-government, they oon never hope to regain them. There is no appeal; they can­not go to the Imperial Parliament and ask for a restitution of their rights. In my opinion, there is no absolute necessity for the transfer of these powers. I believe I am right in saying that there is not a single power that it is proposed to transfer to the Commonwealth that cannot be exorcised by the States individually. If the States part with tho control of their railways-which they will do if they trander to the Common­wealth Government the right to fix the hours of labour and the rates of wages of the l'ail­way employees-they will be allowing the control of the rail ways to pass out of the hands of the State8. That is a monstrous and ridiculous proposition. The people of the Statn will no longer be masters in their own house. It seems to me that the inten­tion is ultimately that the Federal authority shall -acquire the ownership of the railways. It may be possible for them to bring about the financial exhaustion of the States through the extravagant cost of running the railways. We know what has happened in New South Wale~,, and Western Australia, and the shocking e:>eample of extravagance that is to be seen in thoqe States. If the States are not careful they may be oiiliged, through financial exhaustion, to transfer

[Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn.

their railways to the Federal authorities. If ever that comes about, it will be -a bad thing for the people of Australia, and especially for the people of Queensland. It is in the highest degree desirable that Queensland should retain the control of her railways. She is responsible for the money which has been borrowed to construct those railwaJ'S and for the payment of the interest bill. The other night I reminded hon. members that the Federal Constitution was carefully drafted--

Han. A. HINCHCLIFFE: I rise to a point of order. Is the bon. member speaking to the question before the Council?

The PRESIDING CHAIRMA::'\ : I would ask the bon. member to confine himself to the motion before the Council.

HoN. G. S. CUR'I'IS: I bow to the ruling of the Chair. The reasons are overwhelm­ingly in favour of the contention raised by the' Hon. Mr. Hawthorn, which I have very much pleasure in supporting. A Bill involv­ing th,l' surrender of the self-governing powers of the States should not be rushed through in one day. We should be given due time for the serious consideration of the mea0ure.

HoN. F. T. BRENTNALL: The question may arise whether, just at this particular point and this particular moment, we are justified in discussing the gem'Tltl question, but I wou1d like to ask this question : Should we be justified in passing the main question of this moti'on uhtil we know what the object of it is? We do not know at the present timE!. \Ve have no conception what­ever at the present time of what lies be­hind this question. \Yhat is the ultimate objective of the motion? Surely we ought to know that now ! Have we not the right to insi'st upon being informed before we consent to the suspension of the Standing Orde·rs for the purpose of doing something with which we are not acquainted, and also -what, to my mind, is of equal impor­tance-something about which we have some doubt? I would like to know, and I t~tke it that bon. members fefll very much the same as mvself, what are these questions whi'ch we ar'e asked to suspend the Standing OrdE!rs to consider? What do they refer to? Are they part of our ordinery administra­tion? If thev are, let us take the ordmary course of procedure. Are they something special and extraordinary? If they arE!, we have the right to know before we consent to the suspension of the Standing Orders, in order, mark you, to pass certain proposals through all their stages in one day-possibly this day. So that, before we part to-night we must pass something about which we know nothing at the present time. We must take this jump over the fencE! in the dark. Let us know where we al·e being led, and what we are being asked to suspend the Standing Orders in order to do. Until we know that, I think we are perfectly in order in discussing the question so far as i't has beE!n discussed up to the pre~ent. I cannot discms any question outside the motion, nor can anybody else, because' there is nothing else before us but the motion; but the motion is that the Standing Orders be suspended in order to discuss things of which we are en­tirely ignorant. Vi! e can only guess, we can only imagine, we can only surmise what they are. But we have had sufficient informa­tion to know that thE!y open up a very

Suspension of Standing [11 NOVEMBER.] RUles and Orders. 1987

large field of debate, and if we are not per­mitted now to enter on that field of debate .and discuss those subjects, we must de·cide now whether we shall suspend the Standing Orders or not. rntil we know where we are going to be led, and what we· are goi'ng to do if we do suspend the Standing Orders, I think we are perfectly ju;tified in voting against a motion like this.

HaN. E. W. H FOWLES: I think the, :Minister will be we'll advised to put the matter off until Tuesday. If it is carried on Tuesday or vVednesday, it will still be three weeks in front of 11th December, and that was th<J date on which the Labour party were content to see it become law. Another point is that we have had fifteen months dreaming, and HOW the Government want to do it in fifteen minute,... They have been

.fifteen months doing nothing. If it were urgent and necessary at the beginning of the war, they should have done it then. Now, bec;1use somebody wakes up and gets cold feet on the referenda question,, v,·e are asked to put them through in this way. This is a big qur,tion, and it is a big question whether they can go through in this way, according to chapter 8 of the Constitution. I do not propose to discuss that at all now; but wb re is the ur~:·ency? The Constitu­tion will not fall to pieces if the Bill is not put through this afternoon. I think the ::\Iinister would be· "·ell advised to let this matter be fully di~cussed, and let the consti­tutional question he full~< discussed also. Victoria is not taking up the matter very enthusiastically, and in \V estern Australia they are not hurrying either. The leader of the Opposition in \\'estern Australia decline> to be bound in any directi'on with regard to it. I think that the JI.IiniEter '"auld do the right thing if he gives tho HotliJe full time to consider the propos~:1k We might be in favour of the Bill. I do not think we would be in favour of it thio afternoon. Xo man here is going to make a leap in the· dark. But we might bo in fcn·our of it on Tue•day. \Yo should vote against the proposals to.day, I think, bncause. we do not know what is likely to be in them and what their effect might be. If we have a few days to consider them, we will havo time to see what is wrapp~ed up in them and meet them fairly.

Hox. A. DrKN : I am not well up in tho procedure of tho Hou,e, and I would like some enlightemneHt on the matter. I c1wuld have thcught that the proposa1 to po:<tpone or withdraw the referenda questions would have been hailed with the groate"t of s.nisfaction by thi., Chamber. I was heartilv in agreement with the Hon. Mr. Brentnall when he introduced his motion recently.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: This does not poPt­pone it.

Hox. A. DUNN : 'I'o come to tho matter immediately before us, the Minister has asked us to suspend the Standing Orders, so that the matter might be dealt with in one day. I take it that that does not mean necessarily that it will be dealt with in one day; but when the pro­position i' placed definitely before us, 1 t1ke it we can deal with it, and if it is found desirable then to further adjourn it, it would be possible to do so. I think that when the Minister brings the matter before us and asks to be placed in the position of dealing with it in one day, unless there is very serious objection why that concession

should not be granted, the House should place itself in the Minister's hands. \Vhen the propos1t10n is placed before us, if we think it should be further adjourned, we ought to adjourn it.

HoN. A. A. DAVEY: The motion before the Council is to suspend the Standing Orders which would otherwise preclude the passing of a certain Bill through all its stages in one day. I think, with previous speakers, that it is a question of too vital importance altogether to ask us to undertake to pass a Bill when we do not know what it is about at the present time. We must also remember that the people of Aus­tralia have had this thing before them twice, and have turned it down. It has been said that the main reason for the present proposal is that there was a great possibility that the thing would be turned down again. So far· as I am con­CC)rned, I am not prepared to shorten dis­cussion to the extent involved in the motion. I think it is an unr<:asonable thing. No good reason has been shown why we should do so. There does not appear to be any particular urgency. Other States al·e taking time to consider the proposals, and I think that this is an attempt on the part of the Premiers' Conference to force on the people proposuls which, if they had been referred to them, they would have turned down again. \Vith regard to the temporary nature of the proposal, I remember that a certain measure was introduced in . tho othc•r House-the Income Tax Bill-by the then Treasurer, who made himself an apologist for introducing it at a very bad time. He assured the mem­bers that it was only for two or three years at the outside. It i, there stilL This is the propo"'tl to force on the people 0ome­thing which there was very little hope of them, in their intelligence, agreeing to.

RoN. F. McDONNELL: It is very difficult to understand the attitude of hon. l'P£m bers upon this question. About a WE'ek ago, we had a big debate on the queot;on of post­poning the referenda que;''~icns~doing away with a ballot altogether. Now wo have been informed that the refen•nda have been post­poned and hon. meml-> rs arc not satisfied with that. They cav that the •·eason for the proposal is that the Federal Government thought they could not carry them. Here, a week ago, the Hon. Mr. Brentnall brought in a motion expres,;ing the opinion that it should be postponed.

Han. F. T. BRENTCo!ALL: That it was undesirable when the war was on.

HaN. F. McDONNELL: The whole trend of the debate was that the referenda should not be taken. Now. han. members are not satisfied when the Federal Government, in conjunction with the State Premiers,· have come to the decision not to submit the referenda-to do exactly what the Hon. J}'Ir. Brentnall and other han. members desire. What is the position? The State Premiero have met together and have agreed with the Federal Government that this refer­enda poll should be postponed for a period eaual to the duration of the war and t\velYe months after the conclusion of peace. Now, han. members have told us that the main reason that the Federal Government have taken up this attitude in conjunction with the States is that they wer£. afraid that the refPrenda would not be car­ried. Here in this Chamber a strong party is opposed to the referenda. Thete is no doubt

Han. F. McDonnell.l

1988 Sw!pension of Standing [COUNCIL.] Rules and Orders.

about that at all. The Minister comes down with an mgent Bill. He asks this House to do what we arc :.sked to do every session, perhaps a couple of timP9. I remP'1lber that the late Mr. Barlow, who led this House, several ti1n~: s during the session asked tor these powers to pass Bills of far less urgencv through all their stages in one day. •

Hon. A. A. DAVEY: Query !

Ho~. F. 1icDONNELL: There is no query about it. If the ho!j. mmnber will open his cy("~ and t1ke up a volun1e of " Hanf:~trd," he will see that what I state is an absolute fact. '

Han. A. A. DAVEY: You are making a very ingenious sort of speech.

Ho~. F. McDONNELL: There is nothing ingenious about it. It is a statement of the plain, unvarnished facts. What is the position? If the Minister gets the power he is looking for, are not hon. members strong enough numerically not 'to allow this Bill to go through? Are they not strong enough to postpone the second reading of this Bill? Have they not so dealt with matters of mu~h gre.ater importance, if I might say so, th1s sesswn? Have they not postponed against the representatives of the Govern­ment certain stages of a Bill after pro­longed debate? Is that power not in their hands also to-day? The Bill may not be at all what hon. members seem to think it is. The Hon. Mr. Curtis practically told us what this Bill meant. He was out of order. At the same 'time, the Hon. Mr. Brentnall and others asked the Minister to give them the information which they had already, which he had imparted to the House. If this motion is passed, hon. mem-

bers will haY<' the power to pre­[4 p.m.] vent the Bill being pac,;ed through

ail its stages in one day, and I have no doubt the" will use their power if they consider that course is right.

Hon. F. T. BREXTNALL: You are arguing in a circle all the time.

Ho~. F. McDONNELL: I am arguing what is zbsolutelv the fact. The hon. member shoald be one to support the :Minister, because he was the one to take the initiative the other day in stating that it was un,vise for a groat many reasons that the rPferenda should be submithcd to the people.

Hon. F. T. BRE~TNALL: I am not going to allow you to get the Bill through by a subterfuge.

Ho~ .. F. McDONNELL: The referenda are not to be taken now, and all the turmoil the hon. member anticipated is not going to happen.

Hon. F. T. BREXTXALL: You want to get through the referenda questions by resolu­tion of Parliament.

Ho~. F. McDONNELL: No; the party with which the hon. member is associated is strong enough to prevent that sort of thing if they like. We do not know what the Bill contains, and why not allow the Minister to get the necessary permission, and then we can debate the Bill.

HaN. G. W. GRAY: I can assure the Hon. Mr. McDonnell that hitherto the suspension of the Standing Orders has only been agreed to in connection with Appropriation Bills.

Hon. F. McDO::>~NELL: More than that.

[Hon. P. ~YcDonnell.

Hox. G. W. GRAY: I would like tho· hon member to give other instances. I have been here for twenty years, and I was l\finister for four vears, and I know that it has never been' cuetomary to ask for the ·mspension of the Sb.nding Orders in connection with measures regarding- the contents of which we were completely in th" clark. '.rhe motion does not give the information we want, and the l\!Iinister has told us nothing on the subject.. Th"· motion simply proposes that the Standing Orders shall be susp~nded to enable us to pass through all its stages in one dw: "A Bill to refm· certain matters to th-;, Pruliament o£ the Commonwealth." Until the y.,Jinister expl<tins what the contents of the Bill are, we ought to refuse to agree to .. this motion. ·

Ho~. B. FAHEY: The Council is being asked to suspend the Standing Orders. \Vhen that request is made, it is usually in connection with legislation that is urgent and highly necessary. \Ve do not know what is contained in the Bill to pass which we arc now asked to agree to the suspen­sion of the Standing Orders. (Hea,r, hear !} If I may use a very common, although not a very refined aphorism, we are asked tn "buy a pig in a poke." \Ve knmv nothing whate-ver of the Bill that is to comP before· U". \Ve know that it involves vcrv serious consequences to the State of Quensland and to every other State in Australia. For the b't two years, at least, the Federal authori­ties have been trying to ·submit certain referenda proposals to the people of Aus­tralia for the special purpose of depriving· the Statc3 of a very large percentage, if not all, of their constitutional rights and powers. \Vhatcve1· is the c•tuse, the Commonwealth authorities have now altered their minds. Thev have called a conference of State l'rei;Jiers, most of v;hom represent a certain cla';s of politics, and thcv have entered into an understand­ing-I cio not know whether it has amounted· to an acrcemcnt or not-that what the Federal authorities wanted to get by virtue of the result of the referenda shall be handed over to them for the next throe years if ne<'0"~sary, and a ye;;;,r after that, if the war should last so long. Th~ States. and Queensland particularly­winch will be more affected than any other State in Australitt if this should be done­are cailcd upon to hand over those constitu­tional and sovereign powers to the Common­wc;.Ith. They are to get nothing by way of rec1 procal advantage. They give all thE' advantages and get none. They leave them­selves practically powerless to carry on their· ov~·n business.

Hon. \V. H. CA1IPBELL: I rise to a point of order. Tho hon. member is pursuing the" same line as the Hon. Mr. Curtis took jnst now when he was explaining the Bill.

The PRESIDIKG CHAIRMAN : I think the hon. member is speaking to the question" before the Council. (Hear, hear!)

Ho::s. B. FAHEY: I' am giving reasons, as calmly and quietly as I can why this motion should not be agreed to. The Min­ister has mm·ed this very serious motion, but he has not given one single reason why it should be agreed to by this House, and yet we are called upon to sanction it. We are caEed upon, without being given any reason,.

Suspension of Standing [11 NoVEMBER.] Rules and Orders. 198!}

·w hand ovt:r to the Commonwealth the right <Jf conductmg our own domestic business. If W!" allow the motion to pass "ithout Jmm:·mg what we arc doing, without having a scrntllla of Information regarding the con­tents of ! he Bill; e should be acting like -cluldrL'H; . and rn ~ n1anner unworthy of onr pos1hon as legislators. I for one "ill JJe:·cr ,Hnction that. If the Minister had ··.all1 w_.,,n he movod the n.otion, '·At a con­fer,•ncP of the Premiero of Australia \vith .the Fcdc.ral authorities it wns decided that certan1 nght:_ and certain po,vers 'vhieh are at prcseut vc ~t-ed exclusivelv in the St .1tes ;,h:r.1ld be handE'd o\-er to th~ Federal autho­ritil_') for t:.e !.lpec;.i.al purpose of cn~R,blinO' 'them . more stH cess fully to assist th';o. ImpcrLd anthoritic> in carrying out

.snccep,fully the great war that they . nrc at present engaged in," I for one :':m!ld. have supported the motion, even 1t It !m·olvcd th" handing oyer of evcrv ngnt mhcront in Qucen•.sland-(hear, hear f) ~but t~-h-' hon. gentlf_,n1fl:ll 1-_as not done thHt. I" a. •d1spute >hould anse betwe•_n the rail­way l'lllJ,]oycc·s of thi•, State and the State -Gm·ernment, 1s. it necef,.ny that the settle­ment of that {hspute should be handed over 'to t~e Federal authoritie5? Is it essential for t,le successful prosecution of the war bv the Imperial und Commonwealth GovBr~­mcnts that .disn~tes, between employers and cmployPcs m th1s State ;;hould be handed -ovt>r to the Federal authorities for settle­nwnt? If those things are essential to the Blll~P,sful conduct of the war, it might be nc<'e~;;;ary for us to e:anction the n1otion hcforo tbe House. But until the Bill is on -tlw t_able, and we haYe made ourselves ~cquamtod with every line and sentence in It. and their purport ; we should not sanc­i\on anything that would deprive us of our nghts as reprcsenhtives of this State. (Hear, hoar!)

Ho)l. C. F. N'IELSO;:-.T: The question is -whether leave should be given to ,uBpend ·tho St:mdmg Orders. Tlw argument again3t lhat proposal, '•O far as I have heard is that such ·~ thing is 'vithout precedent. '

Hon. A. A. DAVEY: Xo; that it is too im­portant.

HoN. C. :B'. NIELSO::'\f: Not at all-that it ig witl,out precedent in the sense that no expla':ation has been given of the details of tlw B1ll referred to in the motion.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: That is not the Tea con.

HoN. C. F. NIELSO::'\f: That is th<l only reason I ha.ve heard. The l-Ion Mr Davev ~nterjects that it is because the 1'natt~r is too Important, and yet he end otheroc who have .spoken against the motion have continuallv ~nquired what the subjed-matter of the Bill B. How does the hon. member or anvone -else know whether the matters dealt wi(h in the B1ll are of importance or not?

Hon A. A. DAVEY: There is no evidence before us.

Ho)l. C. F. :'\IELSON: Two years oago to ·th_e very day-on 11th November. 1913-as will be found from page 2629 of " fiansard " for that year, the then leader of the GO\·ern­ment in this 9hambeT moved, without giving .n.ny explanatwn whatever-

" That so much of the Standino- Rules and Orders l:le suspendoo for ~he re­mainder of the session as would other­wisf' preclude. the passing of BiU> tl~rDug·h all theu stage.s in one day.''

lion. A. c\. DAVEY: \Vh:•.t "orfl the Bills? HoN. C. F. XIELS0:::\1: Ev· rv Bill that

the Govorn1nent liked to bring fofward from that date until tho end of the se• .. sio .•.

Han. P. ;t_ LEIHY: How ioug w:<s it from the end of the session?

Ho)l. C. F. XIELSO;\i: In ow, sween, and without one word oi prote ·t, the Council allowed that motion to go throur;h, .:o that en rv Bill that the Gov .mment Eked to send un to this House could be dealt with in onB day.

Han. A. A. DAv>;Y: \Ve wE>re very !oolish.

Hox. 0. F. NIELSON: There was not one word of protc,t again .t it.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORX: \Ve knew what v-ras on the progrannne .

Hon. T. C. BEIRXE: It a ·different Government.

HoN. C. F. KIELS0:::\1: App:1rently that is "the fly in the ointment "-there was another Go;·ernment in power then.

Hon. F. T. BRENTXALL: Excuee me. It was getting near the end of the Bes,ion, and the Goyernment wanted to CXJ)eJite the busi­ne~s.

HoN. C. F. KIELSON: Docs not .the !wn. member think that we may be gettmg near the cud of the seBsion, too?

Hon. F. T. BREXTNALL: It does not ]ook like it.

Han. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: When did that session finish?

HoN. C. F. NIELSON: It fini~hed a week latCJ·. (Hear, hear! a.nd laughte~.) D?es the hon. member know whether th1B sesswn is going to last beyond next week?

Hon. A. A. DAVEY: We knew then all the bu·siness tha.t was coming on.

HoN. 0. F. NIELSO::'\f: I was not "in the know " with the Go>ernment then any ,,_ore than I am now, but I happen to know .what the Bill that is to be introduced contam;,.

Hon. A. A. DAVEY: Lucky man. HoN. C. :B'. NIEJ .. SON: Not at all. If

tho hon. member likes to go outside this Chamber he can get that information, the same as 'r got it. The second reading has been passed in another place, and the Bill has been circulated. It is open to anyone to s~e. The point is the giving of leave to the Minicter to suspend the Standing Orders. On 5th November last year similar action was taken.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES: Was that not for non-contentious business only?

I-Im;. C. F. NIELSON: We kn~w nothing at all about the bu;iness; we only guc'ssed. On 5th November last year the then leader of tho Government moved the suspension of the Standing Orders exactly in the l'ame way. Not a word of protest. Not a word of explanation. And, for the benefit of the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn, I may add that the session extended a fortnight beyond that. Last year, Dll 11th August-we had another Government in power then-we passed th~ suspension of the Standing Orders without one word of protest for the purpose of con­sidering the Meat Supply for Imperiv.l Uses Bill.

Hon. A. G. 0. HAWTHOR)l: A war measure.

HoN. n. F. NIELSON: Is not this a war 1neasure?

HONOURABLE ::Y1Eit!BERS: Xo.

Han. C. F.l{ielson.l

1990 · Suspension of Standing [COUNCIL.] Rules and Orders.

HaN. C. F. NIELSON: And also for the passing of Appropriation Bill No. 2; but that was usuaJ. There was not one word of protest against the suspension of the Stand­ing Orders for the purpose of passing that measure. No one said a word against it.

Han. B. FAHEY: Why should they?

HaN. C. F. NIELSON: I know \vhy they should not-because there was another Go­vernment in power.

Han. F. T. BRENTNALL: The purpose was specified there, and it is not here ; that is the objection.

HaN. C. F. NIELSON: The Bill is per­fectly specified.

Hon. F. T. BRENTNALL: Tha.t is very vague -too va.gue.

HoN. C. F. NIELSON: The Hon. Mr. Brentnall got no information out of the title of the previous Bill. We knew it re­ferred to meat, and that the Government were going to take power to control meat for the purposes of the Imperial forces. That was all the information we got. On 25th Aug·ust last year also, when the snSilion had still a conei4erable time to go, a.t any ra.te, the suspensiOn of the Standing Ruled and Orders was moved, according to " Han­sard," page 687, with not a. word of ex­planation by the Minister-not a word of prote~t. ! will assume for the purposes of discms10n that I ha.ve no idea. of the subject-matter of the Bill we are going to have before us. Probablv I ou"'ht not to have, but I went out of "the Ch~mber and got a. copy of the Bill. Is not the point that the Government told us, by the nature of the motion, that they have an urgent matter to bring forward? The name of the matter does. n9t give us full details, I a.m aware; but It IS proposed to hand over to a higher authority, temporarily, certain powers that th~ States. of Australia now pos­sess-temporarrly, durmg the war and for twelve. months therea.fter. Does not that make It a. war measure ?

Hon. G. W. GRAY: Not at all.

HaN. C. F. NIELSON: Then, m what sense are we to understand a war measure to-day?

Han. E. W. H. FOWLES: Necessary for the successful prosecution of the war.

. HaN. C. F. NIELSON: I maintain that If t~e conduct of the business is, as it should be, m the hands of the leader of the House, the ma.n who represents the Government and leads the House so far as business is con­cm·ned--

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: We ought to do wh;.t we are told?

HaN. C. F. NIELSON: No.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: What are we to do?

. HaN. C. F. NIELSON: We are to exer­cise ~hat amount of forbearance, notwith­standmg any very :<trong _Political leanings we may hav<>, tha.t IS due m such cases.

!Cfon. P. J. LEAHY: We are to live by faith.

Ho:s-. C. F. NIELSON: I do not know ~hether the h_on._ memb<;r. keeps in the posi­twn that he I~ m by hvmg by faith. We ~mght to exercise forbearance and confidence m the Government of the day until we are clearly shown that that confidence has been

[Han. G. F. Nielson.

misplaced. We ought to display sufficient confidence in the Government when a Bill is' brought forward which, from its na.ture and title, is a war measure, to take it on trust. that it is also urgent.

Hon. A. A. DAVEY: Nonsense!

Han. B. FAHEY: What has made it a war measure? Your statement has not made it a war measure~

Hox. C. F. NIELSON: But the fact that all the representatives of the people of Au"tralia have met together and unani­mously decided that legislation of this nature is nc·cesearv in the intcresh of the Common­wealth, if not of the Empire, at the present tinu~, ha"s made it a 'var measure.

Han. F. T. BRENTNALL: \Ve want to pass. our judgment on it, and we will when we get it.

HaN. C. F. ~IELSOX: I quite agree' with the Hen. Mr. Brentnall that the details of the Bill are to be rm·iewed in this Chamber, and that each member can pass his judg­ment on it, and no doubt each member will do so, and possibly hon. members will dis­agree with many of the details. But that is not the point. The point is: Can we trust the Government to tell us the matter is urgent, and believe them? I am prepared to do that.

Han. G. IY. GRAY: You seem to be in. the secrets of the Government.

Hox. C'. F. KIELSOK: I am not in the secrets of the Government. I merely walked outside to get a copy of the Bill..:..a thing which any member can do at this moment.

Hon. G. W. GRAY: Give us the details.

HoN. C. F. XIELSOX: I would be quite, out1 of order. I am attempting to keep in order, and apparently I am succeeding. Knowi'n'i that th~ Premiers of all the States. at the present time, together with the Primo Minister of the Commomvealth-all people who, under our democratic system, repr~­&ent the people-have come to certain con­clusions, and that the Gowrnmcnt tell us that there are c<:rtain matters coming along which are urgent, and should be dealt with· as urgent business, I am prepared, and I submit that c very hon. member should be prepared, to trust the judgment of the Go­vernment in that particular matter .

• HaN. P. J. LEAHY: I should not have risen to say anything on this matter, had it not been for the remarks of the Hon. Mr. Nielson. That han. member, from the moment h~ got up until the moment he sat down, was dragging a red herring aeross the track. He never once discussed the merits of the question. He said that, on· several previous occasions. the Standing Orders had been suspended, in nearly all t ~scs a few da vs before the session closed . And when that' has been ,clone, it has been generally when all the busines• to b~ dealt. with is on the business paper. But I do not care what we have done previously. \Vhat we have to remember now is that we are called upon to consider something that is right out of the ordinary routine, something quite unprecedented, something that we might not consider in this Chamber for the next twentv vears. \Ve have to consider whether sullici'ent reasons have been given for the suspension of the Standing Orders to alia>\~

Suspension of Standing [ll NoVE111BER.] Rules and Orders. 1991

this Bill to go through in one day. One objection-the main objection-that I have to the motion now is that we are now towards the end of the week, and many of our country members are not present; and if this matter cam'' on to-day or to-morrow it would be decided in a thin House. That is not fai'r to those country members, who have just as much right as anybody to dis­cuss the matter, and they might be prevented if it shoulu come on when they did not expect it.

The SECRETARY FOR MIJSES: That is the way they attend to their duties.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: I am a city member, and I am here regularly-perhaps too regu­larly for the hon. gentleman. (Laughter.) It would be an injustice to those members if they did not have the opportunity of dis­cu"sing the question. I might say also that it is quite touching to hear the Hon. Mr. KielsoJL and the Hon. Mr. Dunn indulging in an expression of political fai'th. Tiiey would tru.,t the Minister with anything. :My opinion of Ministers is that they should not be trusted with too much or Parliaments either. '

Hon. A. Dc:NN : You can deal wi'th that matter ·wi•en it come., before u,,

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: This is a question of whether we should suspend our ordinary method of doing business, and the IIJere fact of the ::\finister's asking for it is no reason why we should grant his r-equest, more especially as we know something about the question. If the hon. member di'd not tell us anything, or if he told us more, there might be some reason for the suspension of the Standing Orders, but we know just enough to understand how dangerous it is. In discussing this question, it is absolutely necessary that we should consider the· import­ance of the main question to a certain extent. It has been said by some hon. members that the Han. Mr. Brentnall and other hon .. ~embers ought to be delighted, because. this .IS exactly what they wanted in connectwn With the referenda proposals. To my mind it is nothing of the kind. To n;y mind this is a usurpati'on of the func­tlo':s of the country, . and doing something :vhi~h the CDuntry might or might not do If It were submitted to it. The proper thing undoubtedly would be for the Com­monwealth Government not to bring the mat­ter on at all during the war. There was no urg•mt necessity for doing it; but now the" are doing something which, to my mind, is a good deal worse than if they had gone on and taken a popular vote. The Parliament~ are asked !o. assume a responsibility that they ha.-e no nght to assume. Vie are asked to do something that was intended bv the Con­stitution should be ·done by the people. A'?other poi'nt we have to consider is why t!us matter has been brought on at this par­twular JUncture. i'V"hy was this agreement made? \Vhy, when it was understood that the thinij was to go to the country, has it been decided all at once that it should not? 'l'he State Premiers met the Federal Prime Minister, and aU at once we have this thing ?Prtmg on us. It seems to me very much as If .~l:o St'!-te ?remiers were seiling their pohLwal bn·thright for a mess of financial pottage-for loan money. The Hon. Mr. Hamilton let the cat out of the ba~ vester­day. To get money we are to be ~ske'd to

suspend the Standing Orders to-day, and we are, therefore, to be asked to fling away the rights of the whole of the people.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: You never' represented them.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: I represented a majority of the electors for many years, and let me tell the bon. member that the elec­tors of Warrego have always been acknow­ledged to be more intelligent than the electors of Gregory. (Laughter.) I was a representative of the people in the other Chamber for a long number of years, and it wa·, only by a few votes, and probably mis­representation, that I was thrown out. It seems to me that, if our Premiers were hon­ourable men, they would be more jealous of their honour and dignity, but as Tennyson says-

" The jingling of the guinea Helps the hurt that honour feels."

It may be that loan money is to be a salve, a.nd they are prepared to go on with it. The strongest objection to dealing with the Bill in the manner proposed is that if once we do this thing, it will be similar to letting the Commonwealth "get a leg in." Once

this is done, we can never undo [4.30 p.m.] it. When Lord Beaconsfield was

once asked why he did not re­deem all the promises he had made when he wa•' in opposition, he said, " You must not contrast too strongly the hours of courtship with the years of possession." If we give the Commonwealth these powers for a year or two, we may find it useless then to con­trast their promises with their performances. No valid reaoon has been given for this re­quest. If such a reason exists, it was the duty of the Minister to give it. We should have as many members here as possible when such an important measure is under con­sideration. There should be the fullest and freest discussion of the Bill on its merits. But if we are to do what the Minist~r proposes, and pass the Bill through all its stages during the present sitting, the Bill would not have the fullest and freest dis('ussion.

HONOVRABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

The SECRET.\.RY FOR MINES: Only the other day the Hon. Mr. Brentnall brought forward a motion in this Chamber protesting against the referenda being sub­mitted to the people while this war is on. The Premiers of all the States, in conjunc­tion with repre<entatives of the Common­wealth Government, have met in conclave in Melbourne to see if it is not poc,sible to avoid taking a vote on the referenda during the war; and they have arrived at a cer­tain decision, which has been embodied in the Bill which is to be; suh•nittcd to n ll the State Parliaments. If hon. members had only waited until the Bill was bdore t'lem. they "·ould ha vc seen the nature of its provisions. That Bill has 'been accepted by every Cabinet in Australia.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: But not by the Parlia­ments of Australia.

The SECRETARY FOR :MINES: It will go through the Parliaments, too.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: How do you know?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Even in the Federal Parlia.::1ent, Mr. Cook and Sir William Irvine have accepted it as a

Han. W. Hamilton..]

1992 Suspension of Standing Orders. [COUNCIL.] Mining Act Amendment Bill.

compromise. The States are only asked to hand over certain powers temporarily.

Hon. G. vV. GRAY: We want to know what we are asked to hand over.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: If hon. members had only waited until they got the Bill, they would have found out what we are being asked to hand over. \Ye are asked to hand over temporarily only some of the l)Owers that would have been asked for in ·the referenda questions, and not the whole of them. It would be out of order if I were to 'ay what is contained in the Bill before it is laid on the table of the House; but I may say that it only proposes to hand over temporarily C<'rtain of the powers that were to be submitted to the people by the re­ferenda--some of them wholly, some of them only in part. It is not true, as some hon. members have said, that it is proposed th·•t we should hand over the control of our rail­ways, so far as fares and the control of tho employees are concerned. \V e are not hand­ing over any of those things to the Common­wealth.

Hon. G. \V. GRAY: Is it proposed to hand over any State rights?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It is proposed to hand over certain rights, but it is a question of what the hon. lo'<ember means by "State rights." \Ve Jmow there is a great difference in the minds of different people as to what State rights are. I am just as strongly against unification as any hon. member of the Council.

Hon. G. W. GRAY: It will come to unifica­tion.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I sup­pose it will and must to a certain extent, but there are some powers which the Commonwealth Government should have, and which they are asking for. I do not say they should get all the powers they have been asking for, but there are certain powers that it is abso­lutely necessary they should have trans­ferred to them to enable them to ~ontrol certain things that are operating against the interests of Australia and the people of Aus­treJia. We are not handing over the con­trol of our railways at all, as hon. members would have found if thev had onlv waited until we had the Bill before us. From the verJ: ctart the papers have been crying out agamst the referenda being taken, and hon. members have been doing the same, and now wh0n it i"' proposed that there should be a truce during the war hon. members are up against that. It seems as if thev are just looking for something to oppose, and there is no doubt that the action of this Chamber during- the present session will do more to get the people to vote for the referenda wheri they are submitted than anything that I know of. I know many people who are just as much against handing over some of the powers that are asked for by the Commonwealth as hon. members of this Chamber ; but there are many people who recognise that they should have certain additional powers. This motion is submitted to-day so that the ·Premier will he able to keep the promise he made in Melbourne that he would put this measure through with the utmost possible speed. A wire eame through from Melbourne the other night with regard to giving notice of this motion. Everv other House of Parliament in the Commonwealth has agreed to this except the Legislative Council of Queensland.

[Hon. W. Hamilton.

Hon. A. G. C. HA WTHORX : It has not been before the Victorian Parliament yet.

The SECRETARY FOR :MINES: The Bill is nearly through its second reading in the other Chamber.

Hon. T. M. HAL!,: They have the Bill be­fore them.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Hon. m<:'mber, will not let me get to the stage when I can put the Biil into their hands and explain its contents. They cannot _g.et the Bill until it has bc,,en read a first trme and until it has been m·inted and circulated. Hon. members say that they want the con­sideration of the Bill deferred until next week, oo that there will be a full House. There is a pretty good House here to-day, a larger House than I generally have. I am in this pooition in this Chamber that I can never toll from one minute to another whether I shall have a quorum or not. I mav have a quorum now, and in ten minc1tes hon. memlwrs may clear out, and I may be counted out, as I was the other night, and a' I have been on other occasions. I cannot o-uarantee that on Tuesda v I shall have a quorum to pass the Bill, -;,r on \Y ednesday either. Hon. members seem to do just what they like. so far as their a ttenclance here is concerned. It is considered by the Govern­ments of the SBY"?ral States that it is neces­sarv to get the Bill through as expeditiously as 'possible, and that is the reason why we are asking for the suspension of the Standing Orders. If hon. member' only had a little patience, and waited until they J:ad the Bill in their hands, they could decrde ,whetJ:er thev would vote against the second readmg of 'the Bill or not. But they set up their backs and stonewall when thev have not seen the Bill, and they blame me for not t~ll­ing them what is in the Bill, knowing I would be out o£ order if I were to do so at this stag·e. Hen. members can vote as thev like. I am not going down on my knees b them.

Hon. P: J. LEAHY: \Ve are not going down on our knees either.

Hon. F. T. BRE~:r>rALL: Don't raise th" auestion of hon. members going down on their knees to anyone.

Question put; and the Committee divi­ded:-

CoNTENTs, 9. Ron. T. C. Beirne Ron. F. }fcDonnell

W. H. Campbell P. Murphy A. Dunn C. F. ~ielson W. Hamilton E. H. T. Plant A. Hinchcliffe

Teller: Ron. T. C. Beirne. NoT-CONTENTS, 16.

Ron. F. T. Brcntnall A .• r. Carter G. 8. Curtis A. A. Davey B. Fahey E. v;. H. Fowles A. Gibson G. W. Grav

Teller: Han. A.

Ron. T. M. Hall A. G. C. Hawthorn P .• T. Leahy C. F. MaTks A. H. Parnell E. J. Stevens H. Turner A. H. Whittingham

H. Whittingham.

Resolved in the negative.

MIKIKG ACT AM:ENDMENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES this Bill wa" read a third time, passed, 'and ordered to be transmitted to the Assembly for their concurrence by mes· sage in the usual form.

Public Curator Bill. [ll NovE=viBER.] :Public Curator Bill. 1993

RIGHTS IC'{ \YATER AC'\D WATER COK­SERVATTO::\ A::'\D DTILIZATIOX ACT AME::\DMEXT BILL.

FIRST READI~G.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES, this Bill. received l;>y meesage from The Assembly, was read a first time. The second readin;~; was made\ an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

DISEASES I!'\ STOCK BILL. FIRST READISG.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR :MINES, this Bill, received by message from the Assembly, was read a first time. The -second reading was made an Order of the Da,.· for Tuesday next.

COM::\;lON LAW PRACTICE ACT AMEXDMEKT BILL.

Co:u:mTTEE. ACTIXG CHAIR:lf.\X OF CD:IEI!ITTEES.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN: I call upon the Han. E. \V. H. Fowleg to act as •Chan·man of Committees for this day only.

Clauses 1 and 2 put and pas,ed. The Cou.1cil resumed. The ACTING CHAIR·

l\IAN reported the Bill without amendment· and . ihe report was adopted. The third readmg was made an Order of the Day for 'Tuesday next.

FCBLIC CCRATOR BILL. SECOXD READIXG-RESc}IPTION OF DEBATE.

J!:oN. F. T. BRE?\T::-.l"ALL: I moved the adJournment of the debate on this Bill be­·cause I wished to have something to say on the measure which is related so closelv to matte~-s of which I have had consider'able exp<;>nence when dealt with .by private com­pames. .The pubhc cu:ator 1s very much the same thmg as what 1s meant by a public trustee companv. \Vhen I used the word ·" pul;Jlic." I do 'not mean a State officer, but ·a pnvate person or companv. I was lana­ago v-:ry .mu~h impressed with the need fa~ some mshtuhon of this kind, but since then the need has been very largely supplied. There are at the present time fourteen trustee COJ?panie.s in the 9ommonwealth, all of them do~ng pnvate b~smess on private capital as pnvate c: )mpames. There may be one or two pubhc trustee· companies here or there but those arr: not. what I am particular!~ con<;erned w1th JUst now. The paid-up cap1ta! of thf' _fourteen companies in the C?mmonwe":lth IS £.:;70,147, and the depsoits With the dd1'ercnt Governments amount to £181,~37,_ and the balance is placed at fixed depos1t m bar.'ks or on. mortgages on real property, and Ill other lnnds of minor invest­ment:;. All of i~ is safely invested in sub­~tant_J~! and ;.eah~able security, shoul4 it be requued. \letona leads the way m the matter. of trustee _companies, the number operatmg there bemg seven New South Vi'al.es has two, Tasmania t,;o, South Aus­tralia, Queensland, and \Vestern Australia ·one each. I should explain that in Bris­bane we have two, but one of those is a )Jranch of a Southern company. The other IS purely a Queensland company. I do not •care to say much about that, because I had a good deal to do with the foundation of it.

Han. E. W. H. FOWLES: When was it l'ounded?

Ho~. F. T. BREXTNALL: Twenty-seven years ago. I was so impressed with the value of these companies, which were being operated then mainly or exclusively in Vic­toria, that I got some of mv friends to take an intere3t in the formation of one of them, and e!mo•.t concurrently the u·nion Trustee Company of Victoria started a branch here. Those two companies have be,•n carrying on that kind of bnsines:> for all those vears. I might say that only seven out of the total, or onl:· half the number in the Common­wealth, make regular returns of the amounts to the credit of the estates '' hich they represent, and the es~ates of those seven r~present a total of £31,953,690. I mean the average a5,ets which they are dr·aling with m· administering, or money that has been left with them as agents for deposits or investment. To that amount the probable balances dealt with by the other seven com­panil·s mav be added. The total is probably about £5o:ooo.ooo. I think that those figures are very strong pvidence of the necessity and usefulness of trustee companies. The ad­vances which the seven companies which have furnished returns have made to bene­ficiaries by way of temporary loans ::>mount to £98,734. A man may have a £500 mterest in an estate, and he may not be able to touch that estate for a certain time or until

a certain contingency occurs; he [5 p.m.] may be a young man who wants

to get a start in life, ur some sudden emergency may arise, such as an ill­ness or an accident, and he borrow; a part of his interest in the estate from the com­pany at a small rate of interest on the securitv of his interest in the estate. The present compani('' are incorpor-tted com­panies, and under their respective statutes they have to deposit a certain sum of money by way of security with the public Treasury of the States in which they respectively operate. Something was said by the Minis­ter, when introducing the Bill, about the securitY which testators and beneficiaries would ·have by having the Government as their trustee. That is, thev would have the State guarantee or security for the full dis­charge of all the duties involved by the will and for the monevs which came in under the wi·ll and that arE'' held in trust for the bene­ficiaries. The whole fourteen of these com­panie" to which I have referred have to invest a considerable sum of money with the Government of the State in which they operate as a security for honest dealing with the funds which come into their hands. I am not here to advertise a company which I represent, but under its statut0 of incor­poration it is required to deposit with the TreasurE'!' £20,000. Actually, the company has a little more than that invested, but £20,000 is the sum required under the Act. It will be seen therefore that the,e trustee L'ompanies are not without some guarantee of stability. That is a wise provision, and a provision that ought to E·xist. Clause 18 of the Bill provides for the manner in which funds are to be invcJted. The manner pre­scribed is VE'l'Y little different from the mann<:'r of investment prescribed under the respective statutes of the trustee companies. Clause 23 providcs-I think a little accident­ally-for the non-filing of accounts. The clause reads-

" The public curator shall ma,ke or cause to be made an inventory of each estate in course of administnttion by him, and shall rdain the same in his

Hon. F. T. B1·entnal!.l

1994 Public Ourator Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public OU;rator Bill.

office, and shall keep an account of all his receipts, payments, and dealings in every such estate, and shall retain all letters. ~<>ceived and copies of all letters written by him and all deeds, papers, and writ­ings of and relating to every such estate."

That is an absolute necessity, because you n_ever know what is going to turn up. Some­times an estate may run for two or three generations. Then, the clause continues-

" He shall file a copy of such inven­tory in respect of each estate in the registry of the court."

That is a good provision. Then, the paJ;a­graph continues-

" But, notwithstanding any Act, rule, or practice to the contrary, it shall not be necessary for him to file any such account in such registry."

I thi_nk that, if it is necessary to file the secuntws and aescts of an estate, it is just as necessary to file the accounts of the estate and enable them to be inspected. Subelausc (4) of clause 27 provides for free searches with respect to all the documents in the register by certain public officers, but there is no provision for a free search by beneficiaries. I presume that the old system will ~revail, under which a person can go and mspcct the doc;ument:; priyately upon payme!'t of a prescnb~d fee. Thf'l'e is one very Important clause to whiDh I would invite the attention of hon. members. Clause 29 provides-

" (1.) With the consent of the court-(a) Executors, whether appointed

before or after the commencement of tl~i~ Act, may, unless expressly pro­hibited, before or after taking out probate, appoint the public curator sole executor ; and

(b) Administrators, with or without a will annexed, whether appointed before or after the commencement of thi~ Act, may, unless expressly pro­hibited, appoint the public curator sole administrator. " (2.) Without obtaining the consent of

the court, trustees, whether appointed before or after the commencement of this Act, and under whatsoever trust instrument >;Ppointed, may, unless ex­pressly prohibited, and notwithstanding the terms of the trust as to the number o_f trustees, appoint the public curator (If he consents thereto) sole trustee in their place."

Hon .. E. W. H. FowLES: That is without consultmg the beneficiaries, is it not?

Hox. F. T. BREXT~ALL: That is tho point I ·am coming to. Supposin,. there is an estat~ \vith only a single survivi~g truBtee, and he 1s an olderlv man or a man with a lot of other busim:;s on hand. and he does not care to be worried about this kind of thing, without consulting the heneficiarie~ -and ascertaining thoir 1\~ishes he can hand ov~I·. the whole ?f lois reBponsibility to this puohc curator With the con•,ont of the> court and the beneficiarirs mav krww nothin,; whatever a~'ot!t it. :i think" that is unjust t~ the beneficiane•.. They are the people who are specially intereste'd in the estate. and ~hey shoul_d bP consulted before any change 1s made m the trusteeship. Under clause 31-

" The public curator may be appointed <W a new trustee, or as an e.dditional

[Han. F. T. Brentnall.

trustee, in the same caSE'', and in the­same manner, ·and by the same persons·• or court, ·as if he were a private trustee."

I think that wherever it is pmcticable in­formation should be given to lleneficiaries in-. an estate that such a change is proposed. Generally SJ1eaking, beneficiaries get accus­tomed to a tnistee, or an administrator, or an exectitor, and they get ·on very well together. It may be that the two parties do not get on very comfortably together, but then it is in the power of the court to make a change when proper application is made. C!atise 55 pro\·ides--

" Subject to the rules and unles,; the­court otherwise orders, the condition and accounts of any trust whatsoever shall, on an application being made t0 the public curator and notice thereof giYen in the prescribed manner by any trustee or beneficiary, be im·estigated and audited by the public curator or wme pnson appointed by him."

The E"glish Act say> that they shall be im·estigated and audited-

" bv such solicitor or public accountant as "may be agree'd on by the .a.pplic;mt and the trustee in ·default of agreement."

I am inclined to think the English arrange-111>-'nt is preferable. Provision is made in dau"' 72 that, where the net residue of an intestate estate under administration by the public curator does not exceed £500 in value, he rna v apply the same towards the main­tenance, education, and advancement of the infants in su!'h mani1er as he thinks fit. vYhy should it be as lerge a sum as £500? There might be n special case where an infant, literally, might require maintenance; and, a; the child grew, it might require educa­tion. Surely £200 would be enough to pre­scribe in that clame. As it is, no advance can be me.dc out of the f'State unless the net re•·idue amounts to at least £500. If the minimum was £200, rt would be quite· sufficient to justify adntnccs being ma-de in moderate sums for the maintenance and education of young children. That is a common enough thing in the administration of eswtes bv trustees where a widow is left with young" children. Almost the first pro­vision that is made from the estate is for the maintenance n.nd education of those· voung cbildren. As long u;; the mother liv<>s, generally the money is adyanced to her. Should slw die before the children grow up, somebody else should have the power. Generally the manager of the trustee com­pan,- beromcAi the guardian of the child 01·

<'hildren, and he should be authorised, eYen if there is not more than £200 in the estate, to take care of the children and see that they are well fed and "ell ~ducated. The next clause to which I refer is clause ]09. It reads-

" In the first week of J anuarv in every year, •all unclaimed sums of n1oney which on the first da.y of that month have been in the hands of the public curator to the credit of anv trust or estate under administration bv him for the term of the six years next "preceding, e.nd all interest accrued in respect there­of, shall be placed to the credit of the Unclaimed Moneys Fund."

It is a Yery wise thing and a very satis­factory thing that an unclaimed moneys fund' is to be provided. I do not think I am

Public Curator Bill. [ll NovE~IBER.] Public Curator Bill. 1995·

wrong in saying that there are hundr<'ds of balancC's to accounts in financial institutions in Queensland that arc lying unclaimed. Those moneys belong to somebo-dy. It may be that they belong to the ePtates of people who are dC'ad, yet they cannot be touched. Thev lie th.:re vear after vear. Then, clause llO 'makes pro~,ision for 'returns to be fur­nishc~d showing all unclaimed moneys. It reads-

" (1.) EYery company, before the 14th day of ,January in every year, shall make cntrv of all unclaimed moneys in a regis­ter to be kept by such company at its head or principal office in Queensland, in the prescribed form and with the pre­scribed particulars therein specified:'

Thos<Y are the principal things that ought to be cDnsidcred. and when the Bill gets into Committee I shall "uggest some amend­nwnts which have been brought under my notice, mainly by the solicitors of th.: com­panv "'ith which I am connected, and if thos;, amendments are considered advisable, they will be printed.

HoN, G. W. GRAY: I welcome this mea­sure. I am int.:rcsted, like the Han. Mr. B1·entnall, in a trustee company, but I have not had the t\nmty-seven years' experience that he ha-- had. In the Committee stagec, he will be able to suggest amendments that will certainly improve the Bill. One o.f the' prin­cipal reason" why I vcelcDme this measure i-. that it is not a monopoly Bill. Other measure"< that we have had before us have been monop,;listic and confiscatory. 'fhis Bill docs not propose to confiscate the g-ood­will of the present companies in any way. There i _, a diff-erence between this Bill and the system in vogue in tho old country. In the old country, the Public Curator is not a guaranteed concern. Here the Go­vcrnrnent arc going to give a sub""tantial sum of mon :v to start the office, and the interest of th'C beneficiaries, no doubt, will be satisfactorily proYicled for. There is room for a system of this sort in Queensland, the same as in England. My han. friend and I had a;sociations with the company which he has mentioned-a, most successful com­pany. \'i' e have administered the largest estate-an intestate e-otat.:, too-in the whole of Australia. I refer to the Tyson estate, which was so satisfactorilv administered that the beneficiaries sent a' letter of their own free will to the company here waiving the necessity of passing accounts in the Supreme Court. \V e w.:nt with that to the court and had it approved. That is the bigge't com­pliment that has ever been paid to any public company in Australia. I have very much pleasure in welcoming this measure.

Hox. E. W. H. FO\VLES·: There ar.: one m· two points in cDnnection with this Bi1l that must come under the notice of han. members. There are quite a number of clauses in the Bill which, I think, could be a little improved. Xo doubt, the measure will do a great deal of good in the way of appointing a public curator for trust estat-?s, and the State office will gather a lot of the small busin~c'S in trust estates. But there arc some features in the Bill that, I think, "-ill have to be moderated before they can be shown to be exactly right. One o£ them has already been mentioned by the Han. i\Ir. Brentnall. Very oftPn, when a person die;_;, and appoints truBtBes, he ap~ points them becau· B of some personal ti.:

of friendship, or because he knows _th!'t they 'viii lock vcell after the benefiCiaries. I harcllv think it fair that those men, perhaps after· having undertaken part of the duties of trustee, &houlcl be able, withDut consulting any beneficiary, to appoint the public curator as trustee. W auld the testator hims.:lf have· appointed thDse men if he had kno_wn tha~, after they had gone half way with their duties, they would simply throw them ov<;r to an unfeeling machine-the State pubhc­curatDr-because he must be absolutely im­partial, and have no feelings or motives at all? Another small point is that the Bill aim--, at the speeclv winding up of e;tates. Anv man who has 'had anything to do with th.:' duties of trustee will kn0w that, if· t ''ere is prcpertv in Queensland, let alone prop-0rty on the "other side of the globe, he cannot realise that property to any advan­t&ge', perhaps, within eighteen months, and here the time aimed at is three months. Perhaps ther-e may be property in the State 'vhich he cannDt "ell for sixpence, so to speak.

Han. B. FAHEY: That can be dealt with in Committee.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: It can. Still, the Bill is before us, and that is in it. I thinl{ that there should be more latitude a llowccl than that. be·:ause the curator would br handicapped 'to a certain extent. He­"ill have to wind the estate up in tl1ree n.onths, thrmv it on the m<trket and get all he can, but the really conscientious trustee will nur'' the esbh and get the maximum 11mount and the maximum benefit for the bowficiaries. There is a clau''"· that I thou~ht would h,avt' ('ausecl a little conster­I ari·~. ·but apparently it has caused none wha+.'veJ·, and 1 am at a loss to understand whY. _l,Jl the unclaimed beJances arc now to go to tho Government in5tead of remain­ino· in the hooks of the banks. We do net kn~ow what thev amount to. I had it from an eminent b~nkcr that in the Comm!=m­''"calth no l<''S than £1.500.0()0 was lymg unclaimed in Australian· banks. The Bill se.vs that after six Hctl'S nll those unolaimed balances must b<~lonp; to the Government .. Of coucse, that period is provided to ·accord with the stuJute of limitations. All the un­claimed balances are to be a-dvertised at the end, I think, of five ye<ns, so that ever;:­bodv interested shall know. But there IS anoi:lwr clause in the Bill I would like to ask the :\-!inist.er about. It says that tho· unclaimed balances in the Government Sav­incr•, Bank or the Treasury need not be adwrti'3ccl. I believe that the balances of aborio·inals are aclvertised every year in the· "Go,:"ernment Gazette," althoup;h I do not know whv. But with r<'gard to Drclinary depositors: ,·erv often, as we all know, there wifl be funds lyinp; to the crmli_t of truste~s in small estates. I think that, If the pub~Ic companie;; and the banks have to advertise· all th~ir unclaimed deposits, the Government Savin"s Bank and the Treasury should also adv<'rtise theirs. A man might have £1,000 in the Government Savings Bank ·and not know it. I do not know whether the. ho:'-· m<'mbNs will n,pprove of another :Joctrme m· the Bill. It practically says that, If 1~roperty l1elonging to !Ul~vone is left _unoc<>upred and the owner cannot he found, It reverts to the curator after twenty years.

Han. T. J. O'SHEA: If not jumped before.

Hox. K W. H. FOWLES: This interes~­ing question arises : Supposing that there Is-.

Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.]

9.996 [OOL"XCIL.] Public Curator Bill.

[Jroperty on which the rates haYe not bee!l paid, and the local anthority eells that pro-1-el'ty after fCY~ll years or becon1cc", the ownPr of it to all intents and purpoees, and the original owner cannot be found, '/,ill the> Crown sten in at the end of hnmtY Years lllld take that property just by a st~·oi;:P of the pen from the local authoritY, or will the local authoritv be allowed to continue to hold it? "

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: The local ::<uthoritv hell, under a sheriff's se~le, and the purchase'r accpires a good title.

lim;. E. W. H. FO"VYLES: It savs that if _you cannot find the o.::'igin·al ov:lwr after rv;enn v~e.ls it shall becoine the property of the c1m1tor.

Han. T. J. 0' SHEA: 1'\ot if it has Leen ~-old fa,· rates.

Hox. E. W. H. FO\VLES: It is a question whether thi:. provision will or will not over­ride the I,ocal Authorities Act. Then we must remember that we haYe in Queenslund <a splendid Byst•cm of registration of real property. If a man's name is on the back of a deud . that property belongs to him. vr e

·d:. not travel back h\·o or three centuries to the gift from the Crown. Suppose a man ,f5oes to the war and is not a.gain heard of. He may own valuable property and the •Crown step in without much fm:,;1alitv and t<~!w that property. Which is to prevail­this measure, which savs that the propertv belong' to the public ~urator, or the Rmil Property Acts, which &ac-s that if a man's name is on th~ back of a deed the property belongs to h!m? Then there is another minor question. Right away back in 1670-perhaps the Han. :VIr. Garter will put me right here-there was a Triple Alliance be­h\een England, Denmark, and ::\'onvuy and by that alliance all the property of' Xor­'IYcgu;~n and Danish subject·, in the British Empire became vested. when thcv could not . be found, in the consul. This Biil sa"' that that property shall be vested in the· public cur-ator. I think that th;., Bill must be "ubject to treaty rigl1ts, and, although it. says that the property vests in the curator never­·theless I think it would prob-ablv vest in the Hon. ::Yir. Carter so fc.r as French subje< ts

.a1·e Cdncerned. Then the Bill d<·als with the property of convicts. I think that a convict iz, anyone \Yho has been sentenC'ed to iFl­prisonment for throe years. .\ll convicts' property is hereafter to vest in the curator. It n1ay be a very ordinnry c.ase in 1vhich a .man may haye the misfortune to rceeive that sentc•nce. He leaves a wi.:.·,. and 2TO\Yn-up -~ons, '\'• ho cuuld verv well manage the pro-

perty. There is no need for the [5.30 p.m.] cmator to st"p in at all. and

there is no need to sav tint tho property ~h" 1 1 be vestecl in th~, curator. Sul'elv ~-, clause n1ight be 11ut in sayino· that if the~re is .anyone elsL \Vh

1

o can ca1:n. ~n th~ ·-est,··ctc just as well a,, or bet 1<:>r than. the ·-cm·ator, he should be allowc•d to carrv it on. One other thing that has struck n1e 'vith reg·a,.d to the Bill is that there is a chance under it for the Governmc,nt to raise monev fo1· the hosnitak WJ,y not put a tax of '1 per cen,t on all cstHte•' passing- throug-h the

•f'urator s office? The dead would not feel it, Lcc-nuse the estate no lonO'or belono-s to them: the living would not fe0] it be~ause the moncv has not vet vestPd in them.

Han. F. T. BRE;;TxALL: There >Yill be plenty of taxes coming upon the estates of .deceased persons within the next twelve Jnonths. 'I'hey ,.-;ill C··~' overwhelming-.

[Han. E. W. H. Fowl!<s. -

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: I am suggc·st­ino· how tho Goverm•Ient might tax their a\\"'n department. (Ln ughtu.)

Han. A. J. CARTER: Tho Official Trnste3 in lntc.,tac:y gets fron1 2; per cent. to 5 P'-T cent. on estate'.

IIox. E. W. H. FO\YLES: They might t.n -.. thei:c ovn1 d~ partnwnt. and giye 1 per cent.

or 2 per cent. to the hospitals. There is aleo this point in connection with the Bill. Sup· posing a person goes to the curator, and san, ''I want my property under that will," a1;cl the curator makes im·estigations, and pay.; the alleged beneficiary." .~nothor ~nan cernes along later and says, 'Ih8 proYious cenplicant was the wrong man. I am the r1g-ht man," and he brings indubitable proof that he is the right man. This Bill sa\·s that the curator cctn say to the right m;tn. •· I have nothing to do with you. You )nusuo the money thal· I haYe given to the \HOng man!' At first blush. I hardly think that is right, pspecially as the fund is guar­anteed bv the State, and all losses fall on the State. All the monE'YS received are swept into a common fund·. following the l\'ew Zealand precedent. Sm·ely, if the right man comes along and presses his claim, the cnrator should ''ay, .. \VeiL I find you are the r;ght man. Perhaps I did not take too much trouble in finding out whether the previous applicant "as the ric;ht man or not. I will pay your claim, and !ft the loss fall upon s;nnc assurance fund -not the assur"nce fund of the Minister-he has given us so 1nanv assurances. H~n. F. T. BREXTXALL: An Unclaimed

Monevs Fund is to be created, and the loss· should fall on that fund.

Ho)i'. E. W. H. FOWLES: Under the Bill the curator may say. '' I have paid the n1oncy onrt:. If you are the rig~,t 1nan, go and get it from the wrong man. But the 'vrong n1an nuty ha YC' spent the 1none~ . There is nothing in the Bill about the quah­fic~tions of the curator, about his salary, or his tenure of office. I do not know whether it is tho intention of the GoYernmcnt to giYc a one-year. a fiye-years, or a se'~";en­ycars' ttmure o£ office.

Hon. C. F. l\'IELS0:-1: What would you t:u :,:-gest ?

Ho:-~. E. W. H. FOY\"LES: If you can get the right man, I sh.mld suggest that he should be there for lifo He should be liko the Railway Commissioner. If he is the right man, before the end of fhe or seyen vears G\ en·orie would i'ee that he was the i·i,frht 1na.n; and he 1vould be continued in oflice. The1:e ic a dame in tho Bill which Fays that the tcstai<or can direct his money to be put into certain in,-estments. Those in'~",-Qstnwnts mav resn1t in a loss or thev may re,ult .in- a profit. The Bill says that if thev rc.mlt in ri loss, the beneficiaries have to put up with the loss; but it also etys that if the curator inveots any money and there is a lms, the loss shall fall on the common fund. 1'\ow, why should the curator be put in the position that, if he mak>•s a loss on an estate, the Government must make good his loss to the beneficiaries, while, if the testator-exercising eyon greater caution than the curator because he is dealing with his own money-make' an im·estment which rcc.ults in a loss, the bDneficiaries must suffer the loss. If the common fund is to protect one class of beneficiaries, it ought to protect all classes. Th"t seems onlv fair. There is one excellent little feature in the Bill-!

Water Supply, Etc., Bill. [11 NoVE11BER.] J:Ieatworks Bill. 1991'

may say it has many excellent features-and that is that it proYide,. for a safe deposit. in which people can lodge deeds and other valuable documents. The community is indebted to the trustee companies for initi­ating· safe depo5its. Very often a fire takes place. and the policy of insurance is dc•­tl·oyed in th0 fire. If the Goyernment provide a safe depc,it, although they may be tres­passing on the pre~m·vcs of the trustee com­panies, it is a rood idea, and one that will Go \Y.elcomed. I shall certainly vote for the •.Pcond readin<r of the Bill.

Que,tion-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.

The committal of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

METROPOLITAN WATER SUPPLY AND SEWERAGE ACT AMENDi\lE);"T BILL.

SECOl'iD READING.

The SECRETARY FOR 11INES said: It is the intention in this Bill to make amend­nu~nts in the existing Act, which experience ha •. shm~Cn are needed for its more efficient ad­ministration. to imnrove the definition clauses in certain particulars, and to broaden the frJnchise under \Yhich the members of tho 11etropolitan \Yater and Sewerage Board are elected, the State electoral rolls being uti]i,,ed for the purpose, so far as the board's dis­trict is concerned. It is also proYided that the 1nain sewers and shafts in conneC'tion \vith the sewerage \Vorks, \vhile under C'Oll

struction. shall be minc>s within the meaning of the ;}lines Regulation Acts, 1910-1912, fer the c,afety of thus0 crnployed in connection 'vith ·uch 1vor.k~, 'vho are at pre~ent unpro­tectr·d, the l\lines Regulations not no\v beiug applicable. The pmver which the existing board has under its amendment Act of 1912 to eo~ ·.trurt and ·work u tra1n?\vav fTonl TiYoli Raihn> Station to :\Iount C~osbv is being extende(l to allow of the board accjuir· ing and \'i.'Orking a eoahnine, quarry, or gra...-el-pit. 'I'he board's district is being ex­tended to include t]l,, whole of the shire of Balnoral. Attached to the Bill is an ex. planator:· memorandum, but I do not think it is llC('Cs.~ ary to go into detail regarding the · Yarious clauses of the memorandcm1. Hon. members can read that memorandum for themselYes. It is necessary to put the Bill through at the earliest possible moment to provide for the inspection of the sewerage tunnels.

Ron. G. vV. GRAY: That is a very proper thing.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It is a proper thing. Explosions are taking place· under the main otret.ts and contiguous to big buildings.

Ron. A. J. CARTER: They are breaking windows and cracking walls all day long,

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: There is no inspection, and there can be no inspec­tion until provision is made for giving the Mines Department authority to carry out the work of inspection. Ron. members may have seen that I am adverti'sing for addi­tional inspectors of mines, and as soon as this Bill becomes law it is my intention to ha...-e inspectors for these sewerage works. The Bill is more a Committee measure. There are a few principles i:n it to which some hon. members may take exception, but

there is really nothing in it that cannot better be discussed in Uommittee. I beg to move-That the Bill be now read a second' tin1e. Ho~. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I do not

think there will be any objection to the second reading of this Bill. 1 It ~ontains. 1na11Y fcaturPs ,,-}uch, I an1 sure, \VIll 1neet v.-it.ll- rhe ajlpl'OYal of oyery member of the Counl'il. (Hear, hear!) The one particular· fc ... ture \Yhich comnwnds itself to hon. mem­be-r/, is the provision whereby inspectors, fro:n the ::\lines Department will be able to mpervise the underground workings. It i:s rect!lv a man·el that there have not been son1e~ big accid0nt~ before now.

The SECRET.\RY FOR :\lr~ES : If there is not some in.spection provided soon, there will be .. accidents.

Hol'i. A. G. C. HA \\'THORN: It is sur­pri• .. ing that there has not been an accident· at Breakfast Creek, as there is a liability at o.ny tim._• of a cubsidence taking place undPr the creek and flood the whole of the workings •. The underground \YOrk right through is cer­tainly open to criticism and improvement.

Tho SECRETARY FOR' Mil'iES : Very extensive· work:- are going on, and some of them are· very dangerous.

Ho". A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I quite agree with that, and before the work is fiaished millions of money will have been spent, and we ought to see that it is done pro­]Jerly. not only to protect the lives of the men, but also to satisfy ourselves as to the proper· exp·cnditnre of the money. I notice that there is a definition in the Bill of the word " dra.in." I have very often found, from a.. local authority point of \'iew, that it is d;f!icult to find what a. drain is. \Ve have had great difficulry in defining the difference h0h,- ..:en rr drain and a se\.ver, and I hop,< that this definition will ha\ e the effect of showing ''·hat is the distinction between the· two. I do not know that it is a good thing th .• t tho rates of the \Vater and Sewerage Board should rank pari pasm with those of local authorities. I think that the latter should still ha ye the first cc.ll. Howe\ er, rha.t is n matter for CommittPe. One big feature of the measure is the extension of the franchise. I fancv that an amendment will have to be move·d in that direction, as it may not be satisfactory to hon. members that the franchise for election to the board should' be the franchise und0r the Elections Act for· the State Parliament. I think that the franchise should be confined, as it is now, to those who pay rates, and that those who pay the rate·, should ha Ye the sole right to say how their money shall be spent. With these· fpw remarks, I conclude by saying that I shall support the second reading of the Bill.

Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and paswd.

The committal of the Bill was made an· Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

MEATWORKS BILL.

Col'iSIDERATION IN Cmnn'l'TEE oF AssEMBLY's MESSAGE.

(Hon. E. lV. H. Fowles in the chair.)

The SECRETARY FOR MINES mo...-ed-" That the Committee do not insist on

their substitution for lines 36 to 48 of clause 7, ·page 5, of the following words : -' All such property shall be acquired

Han. W. Hamilton.]

1998 Meatworks Bill. (COUNCIL.] Meatworks Bill.

on just terms ' ; and do not insist on their substitution of the word ' the' for the word 'such,' on line 49."

He was not going to labour the question, .as it was fully debated when the Bill was previously before the Chamber. It was the wish of hon. members that the Bill should be restored to the business-sheet-for what reason he did not know-but it had been restored to the paper, and he would now consign it to the tender mercies of hon. members.

* Hox. P. J. LEAHY said that he had a motion to propose, but he thought it was ·onlv courteous to allow the Ivlinister to move a motion first if he wished to do so. It would

.Eimplify matters if the hon. gentleman did not press his motion, but allowed him (Mr. Leahy) to proceed with his. If the Minister wished to go on with his motion, all he (Mr. Leahy) could do, if the hon. gentleman's motion was defeated, was to move this .further motion:-

"That the Committee do insist on their substitution for line~ 36 to 48, clause 7, page 5, of the following words:-' All such property shall be acquired on just terms '; and insist on their substitution of thf' word ' the ' for the word ' such,' on line 49.

"Because there can b~ no valid objec­tion to the words ' just terms,' and, further, that these words are used in a Biil dealing with Commonwealth matters. If those words >vere not inserted, it would be possible to acquire meatworks on terms that _were not just. 'The words proposed will allow the court an un­fettered discretion."

It was abund .• ntlv clear that the measure they were df'·,ling 'with never was, and never was intended to bE·, a war measure. The mpssage. from the Home Government, dated 21st January last, only ask.ed the Govern­ment-and it was the Liberal Government in power then-to acquire meatworks so that the necessary supplies of meat could be pro­vided for the Home Government. There was ample power in the Act passed last year to acquire all live stock in Queensland. For months after that message was received, and until the present Government came into power, the late Government was supplying the Imperial Government with all the meat they required, and they had had no evidence, since the Imperial Government sent that cablegram on the 21st January last, to indi­cate that the Liberal Government were not supplying all the meat that the Imperial Governm0nt required. Then the present GoYernment came into office. He presumed they continued the work of the late Govern­ment, but they discovered the cablegram that was received three or four months before, and ~hey suddenly discovered that they must acqmre the meatworks. There was nothing in the amendment, or in am· amendment passed by the Council, that prevented the Government from acquiring meatworks. The Government had ample power to acquire meatworks and purchase as many cattle as they could obtain, and send all the meat to the Imperial Government, but the Council did not permit them to acquire any freehold. Later, in their desire to meet the Govern­ment, tJ;.e Council decided to permit them to acqmre freehold, but they made it a

[Han. W. Hamilton.

condition that the meatworks should be acquired on just term,. If it was intended to deal fairly and honestly with the meatworks, there could be no objection whatever to the insertion of the words " just terms,'' and if it was not intended to deal with them in that way, then it ought to be made perfectly plain. If the amendment with regard to ''just terms" was not included in the clause, the court would be compelled, against their will in all pro­bability, to take works over on terms that were not just. That would be repugnant to their sense of justice. If the amendment were agreed to, then the Government could still acquire the meatworks, in addition to all the other powers, with the single con­dition that they must be acquired on just terms. It was rather strange that the Government, during the last week or two, had shown no anxiety about the fate of the measure. Recently, some hon. member referred to the position of Mahomet's coffin. That seemed to be the position of the measure. They did not know whether the Government wantcrl to go on with it or whether the Government did not want to go on with it, and the Minister took the action he had taken simply because the Council ~nsisted on restoring the measure to the busin,•ss-paper. The hon. gentleman cer­tainly had not furnished any additional reasons why the Committee should depart h'om the offer which it had made to the Assembly a few weeks ago in regard to the substitution of the words " just terms." In that offer the Committee went as far as any branch of th'l Legislature could be expected to go. It was not fair th.tt they should be expected to gi.-e way more than they had.

Question-That the Committee do not insist on their substitution of certain words-put; and the Committee divided:-

CONTENTS, 4. Ron, B. Fahey Ron. A, Hinchcliffe

W. Hamilton , F. McDonnell Telle?': Ron. A. Hinchcliffe.

X OT-CONTENTS, 9. Ron. "\. J. Carter Ho!l. C. F. Marks

G. S. Curtis E. H. T. Ptmt .A. A. Davey E. J. Stevrns A. Gibson H. Turner P. J. Leahy

Telle?': Ron. A. J. Carter. Resolved in the negative. In division, RoN. B. FAHEY explained that when the

Bill was before the House previously he had declared that he would take

[7.30 p.m.] no further action in the subject-matter of it, and he intended to

do as he had done on a previous occasion, and go outside the bar; but, if he had done so, there would have been no quorum, and therefore he had voted on the question.

RoN. P. J. LEAHY then moved the motion of which he had pr<eviously given notice.

Questi'on put and passed.

The Council resumed. The AcTING OHAIR­MAN reported that the Committee insisted on th3ir substitution for lin(s 36 to 48,

clause 7, page 5, of the following [7.30 p.m.] words:-" All such prope·rty

shall be acquired on just terms" ; and insisted on the substitution of the word "the" for the word "such,'' on line 49.

Adjournment. [ll NoVEMBER.] Questions. 1999

The report was adopted, and the Bill was ·<lrdered to be returned to th~ Assembly with ·<the followi'ng message :-

" ii!Ir. Speaker, "The Legislative Council, having had

under consideration the message of tha Legislative Assembly, of date 27th Octo­ber, relative to the Meatworks Bill, beg now to intimate that they-

Insist on their substittttion for lines 36 to 48 of clause 7, page 5, of the fol­lowing words:-' All such property shaH be acquired on just terms ' ; and insist on their substitution of the word 'the' for the word 'such,' on line 49-

Because there can b'e no valid ob­jection to the words ' just terms,' and "these words are used in a Bill dealing 'vith Commonwealth matters. If these words were not insetted, it would be po,,sible to acqui're meatworks on terms that are not just. The words pro­posed allow the court an unfettered di's..:'retion.''

At twenty minutes to 8 o'clock,

Tho PRESIDIKG CHAIRMAN said: I shall resume the chair at half-past 8 o'clock.

At half-past 8 o'clock, the PRESIDIXG CHAIR­MAN left the chair until 9 o'clock, and re­sumed it at that hour.

SPECIAL ADJO"CRNMENT.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I do not think it is any use wai'ting longer. The Assembly are still in Committee on the Bill, and it may be very late before they finish. Before Tuecdav bon. members will have an opportunity o£ reading the debates in the other Chamber, and of making thomsP!ves acquainted with the contenb of the Bi'll. If the necessity arise·s, we may either ouspend the Standing Orders on Tu0,da.1, or pass the Bill through two. if not three, stages on that

-day. I beg to move-Th<lt the Council, at its rising, do adjourn until Tuesday next.

Question put and passed.

ADJO"CRNl\IENT.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I beg t-o move-That the Council -do now adjourn. The first business on Tuesday wi11 be the Commonwealth Powf•rs (War) BilL After that we will take the third re·ading of the Common Law Practice Act Amendment Bill, then the Committee stage of the Metropoli­·tan \Vater Supply and Sewerage· Act Amend­ment Bill, and then the second reading of thE Disease_, in Stock Bill.

Hox. E. W. H. FO\VLES : Will the first­mentioned Bill be circulated, se"eing that it will not _have been read a first time ?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Yes, I will see that Aosembly copies are cil·cu­late-d.

Question put and passed.

The Council adjourned at five minutes past 9 o'clock.