Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

WEDNESDAY, 27 AUGUST 1919

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

402 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

WEDNESDAY, 27 AUGUST, 1919.

The SPEAKER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock p.m.

QUESTIONS. ALLEGED PAMPHLET ON GOVERNMENT

ADMINISTRATION. Mr. CORSER (Burnett) asked the Acting

Premier-" 1. Has the Government prepared for

issue and pririted a booklet entitled 'A Summary of the Various Administrative Action<< of the Labour Government of Queensland during 1918' ?

"2. \Vas a somewhat similar pamphlet issued for electioneering or any other pur­post during the State election campaign of 1918?

"3. Has the present pamphle·t been printed in the Government Printing Office, and at Government cost?

" 4. If so, what was the cost-(a) of literary preparation; (b) of printing?

" 5. When are copies to be distributed, and to whom?

" 6. Will thev be distributed like the last booklet of the kind, entirely through the agencies of Labour organisations?

"7. Will His Majesty's Opposition be allowed equal financial assistance to aid them in the production of a book setting out in detail the Gove·rnment's acts of maladministration, and the glaring and sometimes apparently wilful misstate­ments appearing in the booklet just printed by the Government? "

The ACTING PREMIER {Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoe) replied-

" 1 to 7. The object of this question clearly is less to elicit information than to make groundless charges against the Government.''

SCGAR·CANE PRICES AND AGREEMENTS. Mr. SMITH (llfackay) asked the Secretary

for Agriculture and Stock-" 1. How many' awards were made

under the Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices Act by local boards for this season's crop ?

"2. How many of the said awards were appealed against to the central board by -(a) the millers; {b) the growers?

" 3. How many mills in Queensland are affected h:Y the alleged agreement to sell cane to C. E. Forster, Sydney? "

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. W. Lennon, Herbert) replied-

" 1. Twenty-six. "2. (a) Two awards were· appealed

against by the millers; and (b) five awards were appealed against by the growers.

"3. S'ix mills."

EsTABLISHMENT OF CREMATOR!Ui\1. Mr. PETRIE (Toombul) asked the Trea­

surer-" 1. Has he been approached or written

to by the< pre-sident or the hon. secretary

Question.-. [27 AuGusT.] Questions. 403

of the Brisbane Cremation Association, asking that a sum of money be placed on this year's Estimates for the purpose of assisting them in erecting a crema­torium in Brisbane?

" 2. If so, has he favourably considered their request and made provision for same on the Estimates for this year? "

The TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, .(Jhillagoe) replied-

" 1. An application has been made for financial assistance.

"2. The matter is under consideration."

STATUS OF SOLDIER TEACHERS. Mr. ROBERTS (East Toowoomba) asked

the Secertary for Public Instruction-" 1. Upon what basis, as regar•ds their

status, do returned soldier teachers re­sume work in the Department of Public Instruction ?

" 2. Do they resume at thE) same sala­ries as they were• receiving when they left Australia three or four years ago, or is any arrangement made so that they do not suffer loss of salary increases which they would have received had they remained at home? "

The SECRETARY, FOR PUBLIC IN­.STRUCTION (Hon. H. F. Hardacre, Leichhardt) replied-

" 1. All regulation rights regarding status, salary, promotions, and cognate matters are uniformly preserved as if they had not been absent.

"2. See• reply to No. 1."

GOWRIE HO>IESTEAD FOR SOLDIERS' HOME. Mr. ROBERTS asked the Secretary for

i?ublio Lands-

" 1. Has he noticed. the following advertisement in the daily papers:-

\V ANTED TO LEASE. WELL IMPROVED FARM.

of approXImately 200 acres. Suitable for Housing Convalescent Re­

turned Soldiers. To LEASE for period of Two YEARS, with Option of

Renewal for further Two Years.

The Department wilf be prepared to purchase necess:1,ry stock of accepted proposition ~t valuation. Easy access to hotels and township not a desirable feature.

Particulars, giving area, locality, arc•a under cultivation, stock, buildings, water supplv, etc., must be in the hands of the undersigned ON OR BEFORE 1ST SEPTE:YIBER, 1919.

J. CLAUDE HENDERSON, Deputy Comptroller,

Department of Repatriation, Commonwealth of Australia,

(Queensland branch). Charlotte street, Brisbane?

" 2. Will he offer portion 51, Gowrie Estate, including Gowrie hom0stead and adjacent land, for such purposes?"

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC LANDS (Hon. J. I-I. Coyne, lrarrego) replied-

" 1. No. "2. I am prepared to negotiate with

the Department of Repatriation for a lease of the property referred to."

Mr. ROBERTB : Hear, hear !

USE OF STATE SCHOOLS FOR \VAR PURPOSES.

Mr. SIZER (Xundah) asked the Secretary for Public Instruction-

" Is it a fact, as stated at a meeting of the Trades Hall Council in Brisbane, held on 22nd August, 1919, that the prac­tice of allowing the State schools to be 'used for propaganda of the war and peace savings campaigns' was prohibited at one time by the State Government as 'the result of a previous agitation by the workers' against this practice?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION replied-

" The prohibition of all kinds of collec­tions in State schools, inclusive of those made in connection with war savings groups, was made on account of the increasing multiplicity of collections in­terfering with ordinary school work. The action taken was a reaffirmation of the policy laid down in a minute pre­pared by the Mini,;ter of Education in the Denham Government, February, 1915. A statement of the reasons given to teachers for ie<suing the prohibition of all collections will be found on page 253 of the August issue (1918) 'Education Office Gazette.' To this notice I invite the hon. member's attention.''

PuRCHASE OF RAILWAY COTTON GooDS.

Mr. SIZER asked the Secretary for Rail­\Vays-

" 1. What quantities of-(a) sponge cloths; (b) cotton waste; (c) other cotton goods, were purchased by the Railway Department during the past year ended 30th June, 1919, within the Common· wealth of Australia ?

"2. What quantities under the head­ings (rl), (b), and (c) were indented for the use of the Railway Department during the period named above?

"3. \Vhat was the maximum and mini­mum cost of the indented and the locally­purchased articles, respectively, in each case?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. J. A. Fihelly, Paddington) replied-

" 1. (a) Nil; (b) 10 tons; (c) dusters, 5.000; lavatory towels, 16,602; pillow slips, 321."

"2. (a) 1,701 gross; (b) 97 tons; (c) la.vatory towels, 148 dozen; dusters, 229 duzen.

'' 3. (a) Indent-ed-maximum, 107s. per grm," ; minimum, 88s. 6d. per gross. Aus­tralian-nil. (b) Indented-maximum, £113 14s. per ton: minimum, £104 10s. per ton. ~\.u ·tralian-ma,ximum, £50 per ton; minimum, £50 per ton (Australian

404 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

purchase~odd lDt secured at an auction room). (c) Lavatory towels-indent­maximum, 1s. 6d. each; minimum, 1s. 2d. each; Australian-maximum, ls. 2~d. 0ach; minimum, 8~d. each. (Wide dif­ference in size, quality, and manufacture in favour Df indented line). Dusters­indent-maximum, ls. 9d. each; mini­mum, ls. 9d. each. Australian-maxi­mum, 11;\d. each; minimum, ll{d. each. (\Vide difference in size, quality, and manufacture in favour of indented line). Pillow slips-indent-nil. Amtralian­maximum, 2s. 6d. each; minimum, ls. S~d. each. I might add that all indents were arranged through the Agent­General, and about this time we were experiencing rapid fluctuations in prices. However, I brought these transactions under the notice of the Cabinet on 24th June last, and action has been suspended pending the fixing of responsibility on the officers concerned, and the furnishing <>f full explanations."

ACC01D!OD.\TIOX CHARGES OF VOLUC'!TARY QrARAXTIC'!E \VORKERS.

Mr. SIZER asked the Home Secretary-" 1. Did he promise to r'.)mit the accom­

modation charges to voluntary workers in the quarantine ca.mps during the recent epidemic?

"2 If so have all such charges been refu~dcd ?"'

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. Huxham, Buranda) replied­

" 1. and 2. No."

HoC'!. J. ::.\1. HuxTER AXD AGEXCY-GENERAL.

Mr. SIZER asked the Acting Chief Secre­tary-

" 1. Is it his intention to leave for England to take up the position of Agent-General in October next?

"2. If so, has any staff been appointed to accompany him; if so, who?"

Hon. J. M. HUNTER (Jfaranoa) replied-" 1 ana 2. My intentions, as well as

the other particulars required by the hon. gentleman, will be disclosed in due course."

PRICE OF TALLOW.

Mr. F. A. COOPER (Bremer), in the absence of Mr. Gledson, asked the Minister in charge of State Enterprises-

" 1. Has his attention been called to the rise in the price of tallow to ls. per lb.?

" 2. Are the State butchers' shops charging ls. per lb. for tallow?

" 3. If the State butchers' shops do not manufacture tallow, will he .andea­vour to get same produced and sold at a reasonable price ? "

HoN. J. M. HUNTER replied­" 1. No. "2. No; but dripping is sold at the

State butcheries at lOd. per lb. "3. Yes."

WHITLEY REPORT ON INDUSTRIAL MATTERS.

Mr. VOWLES (Dalby) asked the Acting Premier-

" 1. Has the Government received any authoritative and reliable information as to the provisions of the Whitley Report to the British Government on industrial matters?

"2. If so, will he make it available for the information of the House?"

The ACTI);G PREMIER replied-" 1 and 2. I shall cause inquiries to be

made."

ALLEGED PILLAGII\G OC'! RAILWAYS.

Mr. VOWLES asked the Secretary for Railways-

" 1. How many complaints have been made to the Railway Department in respect of pillaged goods for the year

. ended 30th July, 1919? '' 2. What compensation has been made

in respect of such claims?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS replied-

" 1 and 2. The cost of compiling such a return would be very heavy. The hon. membe:· may, however, have access to any partiCular documents, or can be given gross totals."

MATERIAL FOR CO-OPERATIVE ·\YICKER FACTORY.

Mr. ELPHII\STONE (Oxley) asked the Home Secretary-

" 1. Has the Blind Institution been supplying the Co-operative Wicker Fac­tory with material; and, if so, of what nature?

" 2. V.~hat are the quantities and dates of delivery of materials so supplied?

"3. What sum has the Co-operative Wicker Factory paid to the Blind Insti­tution, to date, on account of such materials?

" 4. V.~hat is the aggregate amount due to the Blind Institution, at this date, in connection therewith?"

The HOME SECRETARY replied--­" 1. Y <:>-s, cane and seagrass. "2.-

1919. January 7 .. . January 13 .. . Febu~try 6 •.. February 11 February 12 ... March 26 April30 May6 :\lay 12

Totals

~JoiAGRASS.

Tons cwt. qr. lb. j'Tons cwt. qr. lb. 0 13 2 6 0 8 1 7 0 0 I 21 ... 0 1 0 20 0 0 3 16 060200015 28001820 0 5 1 0 0 l 1 10 0 2 0 14 0 3 3 0

4 2 16 I 1 18 0 0

"3. No payment has yet been made, but satisfactory arrangements have been made for a settlement. The Federal Furnishing Trade Society, Queensland Branch, has assumed full responsibility for the debt.

"4. £34<; 3s. 2d."

Questions. [27 AUGUST.] Go-operative, Etc., Bill. 405

CosT AND DEPTH OF ROMA OIL BORE. Mr. GUNN (Carnarvon) asked the Min­

ister representing the Secretary for Mines-"1. What has been the totai cost of

the Romoa oil bore, including machinerv up w 1st July last? ·'

"2. What reached? ''

depth has the

Thn .\CTING PREMIER replied­" 1. £24,547 16s. 1d. ·• 2. 3.705 fl'et .''

ME\T FOR l'.IHLLD!EXTARY HEFRE<HMEXT-ROQ)l. Mr. G {j:::-1::\ (f'arnan·rm), without notice

askr·d Mr. Cor:;er, as a mc>mber of th~ RPfr£,~JlunPnt-r(·on1"'i Conunittee-·-

" 1. How many ml'mbers of thf' Assmnbly arC' rn<'mbers of the Parlia­mentary Hefreshment-rooms Committe0; how many a1·p Government members, and how many aw Opposition m<'mbers'

"2. Do the ParliamPntarv Hefrpsh­Plf'nt-roorn~ Con11nittPP get ~th0ir rneat from thP Stat<' shop,;: if not, why not'!''

Mr. CORS ER (lh1rnctt) l'Pplip<l---,, 'rhere are two m.;mbers of the Go­

vernment and one of the Opposition in the AssPmbly on the committee."

ThE f'PEAKEH: 01·der: The first que~­~ion is frivolous.

Mr. COHSER:

" In answ0r to the second question, I may say that all the meat that has been 'Prured by thP committee ha,; been secur<'d from private shops. No meat, so far as I ran see, has been secured from tbP Stat<· meat shops. As to the reason for the Government's ac-tion I might say that tllC' Trf'asurPr had the opportunity of an-'w<•ring a similar question vester­<.la>·. I do not like to ~h-e the poiicv of thP GovPrnrnent. Fr~m mv point of vie1v--" ·

Th0 SPEAKER: Order! member eonfine himself to question?

Will the hon. answPring the

Mr. CORSEH : I am trying to. From my point of \ it~,,y,. ___ _

The SPJ•:AKER: \V<' do not want to know the h<m. memLer's point of viPw.

. A GOVERcD!ENT :\iiE)IBER: Answer the ques-tion.

. Mr. COHSEH: Answering the question, if 1 <lm to speak for the GDvernment, the rea.son IS that, for the convenience of mem­bns, and in order to satisfy them as much as possible, the committee get the best tbev

<'-an, and that is secured anvwhere other than from the State shops. (Loud laughter.)

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION NOT IN ORDER. On Mr. SWAYNE (Jfirani) asking a ques­

tion without notice,

The SPEAKER said: Tlw hon. member is n'?t in order in asking a hypothetical GjUP3tlOll.

CO-OPERATIVE AGRICCLTURAL PRO­DUCTION A:;:\I'D ADVANCES TO FARMERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

lNTROD1'CTION.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. W. Lennon, Hrrb1rt), in moving-

" That the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of th0 Whole to consider of the desir­ableness of introducing a Bill to amend the Co-operative Agricultural Produc­tion Act of 1914 by ext0nding its pro­vi,ions so as to <>nable advances to be made to farnwrs for certain objects, and for othPr purpoS('s,"

said: In thP lll'l'sent kgisla.tion dealing with this matte1·. then• arc c0rtain defects which it is propos0d to cure bv this amending Bill. For example, if a body "of farmers desired to form a co-operative eompany with the object of starting a chl'e'e factory, under the exist­ing law they only required a majority of produeN·s. That provision opens the door wide to dry shareholders. 'rhis Bill proposes to altPr thr..t provision to two-thirds pro­ducers, leaving one-third dry shareholders. I think that will be an improvement.

11r. CoRsER : It will make it v0ry hard to gf't factories.

TlH' SECRE'l'ARY FOH AGRICCLT'CRE: l'ersonally, I should like to exclude dry shareholdPrs altogethcr--

Mr. BEBBIXGTOx: Tlwn. you will exelud0 the factories.

The SECRETARY FOR AG RICCLTURE : \V,iJl the hon. member allow me to finish 1

J'ersonallv. I would like to exclude the dry f'harPhold~r,;. hut I am quite sure that in the sparsely popula.tcd districts, without th<) aid of the principal storekeeper and the butrher, and of the leading busin0ss men, it would not be possiblt> to start co-operative companies. 'l'hat provision was inserted in days gone hy, I propose to reduce that con­siderably, but not to wip<' it out altogether; but tht> idea i;; to exclude the dry share­holders absolutclv in time to c·omc. Another very important 'alteration proposed by thi,­mea~ure is that instead of giving £1 for :81, as ,i~ commonlv expressed, the Government propose to gi;_,e 66~. For example, if a companv started a co-operative fac-tory cost­ing £3,000. at the present time the Govern­ment would contribute £1,500 of that amount. rnrler this proposal the Government will eontribute £2,000 out of the £3,000 . {Hear, hear!) I think that will be a great improyement in the Act. It is also pro­posed, in addition to making advances to co-operative companiPs, to make advances for specific purposes to dairy farmers and other farmers. The advance is to be limited in amount and restricted in duration. It is proposed under the Bill to make advances up to £200 to enable a. dairy farmer, or a person desiring to become a dairy farmer. to purchase dairy cattle, and thc• term of such a loan will be seven years.

Mr. CoRSER: What security has he to offer for that?

Hon .. W. Lennon.]

406 Co-operative Agricultural [ASSEMBLY.] Production, Etc., Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:LTL'RE: Whatever security the Minister may deem nec~ssary. An advance to the extent of £50 may be madD to a farmer to enable him to buy pigs. That loan will last for three years. Then, for the <:>rection of a silo, an advance of £150 may oo made, and that loan will have a five years' duration.

Hon. J. G. APPEL: Are sheep included?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: ShE'*'P arc not included; neither are goats.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Is there anv limit to the size of the silo? \Vould you advance money for the construction of a half-ton silo?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIOl:LTURE: I do not think I can answer conunclrums of that nature. It is not proposed to erect toys.

Mr. BEBBI~GTON : Tha.t is th•· proposal of the hon. member for Too\voomba.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It was not proposed oy Ill<'. That is abso­lutely false.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: It was said at a meeting at which you were present.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:L'l'L'RE: It is propos!"d to PrDct silos that will be of some use and which will me0t the needs of the people.

Mr. CoRSER: \V ill You want security for silos? "

'l'h<' SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:LTt"RE: The :l-1inister will get proper security where he can, and where he cannot get proper security he must take the best he can get. I i:hink I have mentioned all the .alteration,; which are proposed in this Bill.

:Mr. S\VA YNE: As a farm~r, and kno\v­ing thE> possibilities of the co-operativP system, I have listened very attentively to what the ::VIinister said in moving this :notion, but I must say I was disappointed m one regard. The hon. gentleman spoke on the question of dry shareholders. and from the tone in '' hich he spoke, the hon. gentleman evidently thinks it would be a good thing to do away with drv share-holdl'rs. · '

The SPEAKER : Order ! I must ask th<' hon. mPmber not to ent0r into a discussion on the Bill generally.

Mr. SWA YNE: Seeing that WP alreadv have legislation on the statute-book passed by the Denham Government in the Sugar Works Co-operative Act of 1914, which entirely eliminates the elcmmlt of clrv share­holders, I thought this was a fitting' time to !nquire why th:'t procedure was not adopted 111 regarcl to thrs measure. I a.lm notice that when the original measurP-- ·

The SPEAKER: Orde1· : The hon. mem­ber is pro?e~ing to discuss matters explained by the Mmrster. I have no objection to the hon. member asking for information, and if he had no other opportunity of cloing so I woul~ allow him to discuss the matter, but he wrll have another opportunity.

[Hon. W. Lennon.

:VIr. S \YA YNE: On a previous occa.sion when the original measure was at the same· stage in this House, regret was expressed by hon. members who are now sitting behind the Government but who were then in oppo­sition, that the Bill did not make provision for the marketing of produce, and that was consid(•red to be a great drawback.

The SPEAKER: It was cliscussed then becau,,c an an]('ndment was moved to mako that provision.

Mr. SW AYNE: I ask the Minister whether this Bill includes a provision to that effect­whether it will assist co-operative companies to be formed for the purpose of marketing product', because if not, it falls fur short of 'vhat it shoulcl be.

1-Iox. J. G. APPEL (A.lbcrt) : In answer to a question by myself the Minister stated that no advance would be made for the purchast> of either sheep or goats. The ques­tion of sheep raising is engaging the atten­tion of a large number of farmers who, at one time, WPre engaged exclusively in dairying.

A GOYERlOIENT MEMBER : \Vhere?

Hox. J. G. APPEL: Along the North Coast and along the South Coast. The sea­son' have hcPn of such a character lately, and have so seriously interfered with clairy farming, that a. nu1nber of settlers have found it \Yould he a more remunerative busi­ness tn cng·al'e in breeding and fattening of sheep.

Th<' :"ECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: We are assisting sheep men in that direction.

HoN. J. U. APPEL: I understood that this Bills deals with clairymen and selectors.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : Dairy farmNs and farmers, but not sheep farmers.

Hox. J. G. APPEL: A man with 400 sheep could hardly be tailed a sheep farmer.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTCRE: We have not brought bees uncler it.

Hox. J. U. APPEL: I do not know whether the Minister is in a sarcastic vein. I sugge,t that he might reconsider this matter, because, if he macle inquiries, he would find that a large number of men are engaged in the breeding of sheep on a small scale.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : I know fur more about that than the hon. member without making any inquiries.

Hox. J. G. APPEL: That may he, but what is the object of the Minister in exclud­ing the purchase of sheep 1 If he has the welfare of the small dairyman at heart, I would suggt:'t that while he is making this alteration in the Act he should include, not only the purchase of sheep, but also of goats, because Angora goat-breeding is very remunerative, and can often be carried out" with sheep where clairying fails, owing t<> the lack of proper seasons as we are experi­encing at the present time. In rough country, of which we hail'e a large amount both in the North Coast and South Coast districts, the breeding of sheep and of the despised Angora goats can be suitably carried on.

Mr. BEBBINGTON (Drayton-) : I am glad the hon. member has mentioned Angora.

Co-operative Agricultuml [27 AUGUST.] Prodtt~tion, Etc., Bill. 401"

goats. (Government laughter.) Hon. mem­bers opposite laugh, because their knowledge is so limited that the only thing they can do when anYthing is brought on is to laugh. That shows them: to be very childish-a child will laugh at anything which he does not understand. I am glad the Minister is not going to advance money on such things as half-ton silos. That was recommended to farmers bv a member of the Minister's own party at a public meeting somewhere near Ipswich. I will not say that the Minister was present.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC"CLTDRE : You said so before. You ought to withdraw it.

Mr. BEBBI~GTO~: I will withdraw it if it is not so. I am sure the Minister knows better. Where you have a crop of 20 tons to the acre you would want 40 silos, and your farm would be taken up with silos, and if the Minister ·advanced money on half-ton silos, the n•sult would be to cover tht: farms with bricks and put the land out of culti­vation. So far as the advancf•s to farmers are concerned, I am· sorry the Minister did not go a little further, as we have found after experience that further alteration of the Act is needed. The sugar-mills were given an advance of 75 per cent. under the sugar legislation, but when the Co-operative Agricultural Production Act of 1914 was passed the farmers in the South were only given an advance of 50 per cent., because it was stated that the amount required for cheese and butter factories was very much smaller than the amount required for sugar factories. Since then we have found that agricultnral farmers should be on the same basis, and have advances up to 75 per cent. If we had had an opportunity of going back to the 'Treasury benches that would have been one of the first things we should have done. (Government laughter.) We should have put all the mills on the same level.

The SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. mem­ber will have an opportunity of discussing these matters at a later stage.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: I am glad the Minister is not shutting out dry share­holders. There are many farmers who sell their shares. I can sell the Minister shares in co-operative companies which are in full working order-I can sell him 5s. shares for 1s. if he likes.

The SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! Mr. CORSER: After hearing the Minister's

explanation of the provisions of t.he BiJ.l, I must really say that I am disappointed. I would like to know what he vroposes to do in regard to the security for these advances, because on that point hinges the va-lue of the assistance which is to be offered to the farmers.

Hon. W. -:\". GrLLU'S : \Vhat is your own idea about security?

:VIr. CORSER: vYhcn we are on that side you will get that.

Hon. \Y. X. GrLLIES: When vou had the opportunity what did you do f

Mr. CORSER : I would like some further details from the Minister. The Bill does not include all the assistance which we looked for. There is any number of people who have practically lost all during the dry season, and what assistance are they going to get?

'fhe SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mem­ber must see that he cannot enter on such a

wide discussion, unless he moves an amend-­ment to widen the scope of the Bill.

Mr. CORSER : I am not moving an amendment. I am just trying to get a little further information from the Minister. Will the Minister accept an -amendment in that direction?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: No.

Mr. CORSER: Most of our dairying com­panies have only been establish~d through­the money subscribed by the dry share­holders, and I hope that the Minister is. going to make it possible to still secure the· use of that monev. The dry shareholders. do not control the "factory in some instances ..

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber must recognise that he is not in order in following those lines.

::\1r. CORSER: I am merely trying to· draw from the Minister some further infor­mation. I would like to have seen pro­vision for finding water, and ether thi~g'' included in the Bill, and I hope the Mm­ister will be able to tell us that there is still hope for the assistance we are looking for.

:\fr. TAYLOR (Win(lsor): I hope the Minister will see his way clear to adopt the· practical suggestion of the hon. member ~o~ Albert. There are small farmers runmng 200. 300 or 400 sheep, in conjunction with dain-ino-~ and that line of farming has b~en advocat~'d for some considerable time by officers of the department. If we can do anything to encourage farmers :m the South Coast or North Coast to rarse, ooy, 300· sheen, it will have a groat tendency to chea]wn the cost of living, and tha_t is ~h~t we are out for. It would be well rf a lrmrt was put in the Bill as to the num?er of sheep on anv holdnw or farm on whrch an advam·c could be u';'acle, and I hope that will be done'.

Mr. ROBERTS (East 'l'oou·oomba): I de si re to move an amendment to widen the· srope of the order of !ea.-e. There are numbers of men on the Downs raising small' lots of sheep, and \Ye should give the,;e men assistance in a dry time. They are alto­gether different from a grazier or squatter. Secino- that the Minister states that sheeP' is not to be one of the things on which a fa rn1C'r can get an advance, I move ~he· insertion o:ftn the wor'd " farmers," on hne-5. the words "including sheep farmers."

Mr. GRA YSOC\ (Cunningham): I beg to· sPoond the motion of the hon. member for· Eaet Toowoomha. In my electorate there arP more small sheep farmers than ':ny other district in Queensland. I am speakmg· of a o-ricultural oheep farmers. If many smal(farmcrs could have received assistance­from 1:he Government to purchase sheeJ? .. it \YOuld have he<'n an excellent proposrtwn foi' them. I think that sheep and lamb­raising ,]JOuld be encouraged by the Goyern­ment in eyery possibl<:' _w_ay, an<'! there IS no ;;a fer "' ''uritv. Th0 ::\lhmstPr mrght advanc<'· mom'v un to 500 sheep: the farmer would nrobnblv' onlv require ·the money for six rnont\J,; 'of th0 V<'nr because he would prob­ably turn sheet) ov'er two ?r. thro~ times a vear. T notice that the :Mmrster mtends to a dvan<·e monev to dairvmen and farmers for the Nection of .'<ilos, ,',nd I am entirely in favour of that.

::'1-Tr. BRF.l\NA:<:: liPEtl', )l('ar! Mr. GRAYSO~: Th<> far"1Prs of Queens­

land art' taking a keen interest in the-Mr. Grayson.J

408 Co-operative Agricultural [ASSEMBLY.] Production, Etc., Bill.

<•rection of silos. I would lik0 to know from the Minister if this loan will be available for any farmers who wish to apply for it?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : Not necessarily.

Mr. GRAYSON: It is at the option of the Minister whether he grants the loan or not?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC1ILTURE : I would like to have a man of approved good -d1aracter applying for the loan.

Mr. GRAYSON: If ho is a man of f<Ood character he will get a loan Y

The SECRET.\HY FOR AGRICGLTCRE : 1 will 11se the ordinary lmBiness <liscretion.

Mr. GRAYSOX: I hop<' there will lw no sweating.

Tho SECRETARY FOil "\GRICl'LTl'RE: I shall not be a Shvlock, like the hon. m<'mhPr for Cunning ham:

Mr. GRAYSO::'\: I han' in mv mind the time when the Minister was dict~ting terms w the wheat farmc;r~. and on that o<·casion I think he thought he was dictating terms to his old clients as he use<l to do before he came into Parliament. .' If the :M\inister intends to apply the loans for necting silos, I commend him' for it. I am saf., in saying that every member on this side of th., House will,support him in that.

;\fr. WALKER (Cooroora): T have much pleasure in suvporting tlw amendment. The Minister wil] r<;membt>r how surprised he was when he got the returns r<'garding >heep from th<' North Coa't districts. When he thinks of those returns I am surf' that he will liberalise this Bill in such a way that it will include the small slwep farmers of the North Coast. "When I gave him those particulars I know it astounde-d him. and he afterwards m'ade nse of the information in the House. So far as the statpm('nt that sheep cannot bo grown on tho Korth Coast is concerned, that is all nonsf>nsP. To back up my contention that sheep can be grown •nccessfully along the :;\Jorth Coast, I have only to refer to the Government sheep ex­pert, as he states that the Xorth Coast is particularly suitablP for the long-wool breed, more particularly thP Romney Marsh. I have bred that particular breed myself with ,;uccess for the last fifteen vcars, and I am still brE'eding them. I wolild like to refer th~; Minister to t]H, hon. mcmbl·r for Mitchell, who has seen sheep in that dis­trict whilst touring round, and he knows that you cannot get b()tter country for sheep than along the North Coast. If the Minister would encourage th<: raising of sheep on the North Coast he would be backing up the opinion of his expert. I am sorry that th" 0xport ha' been turned down by the depart­ment and has not been given a fair deal r.;garding the introduction of sheep to suit­able districts in Queensland. At the present 'time the return for sheE'p is :£1 5B. per annum for each ewe.

The AcTING PRE}I!ER: Undl'r a L:1bonr Government.

Mr. WALKER: I havl,l had sheep for fif­teen years, and I got the •iame return before a Labour Governm'ent came into existence. I know the price of wool has gone up, and so has the price of clothing, and that is nnd(lr a Labour Government, too. (Opposition laughte,.) I advocat<> that encouragement -ahould be given to sheep-raising in the

[Mr. Gra&son.

North Coast districts oil account of the scar­city of meat. The butchers' shops have been closed down, and h is ncce,sary to have fresh meat on the farms. The only way a farmer can have meat for his family is to encourage him to grow small animals like sheEJp. The bullock is of no use to the small farmer. Before this debate closes I would like to hear the opinion of the hon. member for Mitchell on the subject. If the scope of the Bill is t;nlarged in the way suggested by the amendm<;nt, it will be an improve­ment.

Mr. FRY (Kurilpa): I have very much pleasure as a city member in supporting the amendment.

Mr. ROBERTS: Cheap meat.

Mr. FRY: A vital question of interest to th<; city to-day is cheap living and the reduced cost of living. If this amendment i;; accepted by the Minister or carried by the House it will mean the growing of more t<heE'p_' It will benefit the small man tC! a considerable extent. We have been talkmg about breaking up large estates and we have been talking about greate.r production. There has also [Jeen a lot of talk about the increased cost of living. Here is an .,xcel­lont opportuni tv ·for the Government to encourage greater production and to reduce the cost of living. If they only encouraged the raising of sht;ep as mentioned by the hon. m<>m'ber for Cooroora it will mean cheaper living for the people. That is the reason I support the amendment.

Mr. SIZER (JYundah): I would like to sav a word on this matter, realising as I do that thero is a large number of returned m<>n who· are anxious to go in for sheep­raising. If the scope of this Bill is widen~ in the way suggested by the a!Ilendm·ent, It will be an excellr,nt opportumty for these men to go in for that busineBS. It will enable a small man to get a small flock of sheep on hi<> farm and so ~nhance th~ returns from his farm. That w1ll mean mcreased prosperity for the £arll1~r himself and for the State generallv. I supoprt the amend­ment because I am Cf'rtain many returned men 'will avail themseives most readily of tlw opportunity to borrow money for the purpose of raising sheep.

Mr. WARREN (Jiu'rrumba): I endorse the remarks of hon. members so far as the North C'oa&t is concerned. I feel it is an absolute ~ecessity to have she<;p raised on the North Coast line. ·when I went there first, .twc; or three years ago, I was very J;H:eJudJced against the country for sheep-ra1smg, but now I am quite convinced that coa_rse-wool sheep will do well there. That w1ll be a, benefit to the small farmer. They are all small farm'ers along there. It will also be a benefit to the general public, as it will mean increased production, and that is what we should encourage amongst our farmers. In the very worst country along the North Coast there are farmers who will be able to run sheep on their holdings. _Th'lre is one man on poor country a few mrles from Elimbah, and he has an excellent lot of sheep. The Government expert has recor'?-­mended the farmers to put sheep on thell' land along. the North Coast line, and that is why I think the Minister would do well to accept this amendment. If this amend­ment is agreed to, it will be extending a benefit to genuin<; men on the land who wish

Co-operative Agricultural [27 AUGUST.] Product.:on, Etc., Bill. 409

to increase their effectiveness and produc­tiveness. I quite agree with all that has been said by the hon. member for Cooroora. He has been a long timE! in this business, and what he says is correct. I wish to go in for sheep-raising myself, and I know several ·other farmers on the North Coast line who are anxious to do the same. We wish to raise lambs for the market. If we can do that, it will be a benefit to the farmers and to the State as a whole. We are very back­" ard in the State so far as lamb-raising is ~oncerned. Lamb-raising is a profitable business in New ZPaland, and I do not see why we canont have the same industry in this State.

l\!r. G. P. BARNES (Warwick): I have much pleasure in supporting the amendment. I was disappointed with the information given by the Minister. Naturally, the Minister interprets his introduction of this measur(l in connection with the particular clause in ·the Governor's Speech, to which he makes .-eference in the following way:-

" In order to facilitate land settlEJment and increased production, it is the inten­tion of my advisers to introduce measures having for their objects the encouraging of dairying and its allied industries, by providing for greater financial assistance to (Jnable co-operative societies to be formed, ~nd by making provision for assisting selectors to procure dairy stock."

Mr. PETERSON: Is this not doing it?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: Yes, it is doing it. ][ consider, in the light of criticism of last session when the matter of giving increased .assistance to farm<)rs and agriculturists gene­rally was fully discus'ed by the hon. mem­ber for Normanby, who made reference to what should be dono, and followed by my­self, that something more should be done than is proposed by the Minister. I pointed out at that time what was being done in America to help the dairy farmer and agri­culturist generally. It is found in Ame•rica that it is essential to provide ample means for the dairy farmer and farmer generally if he is to be encouraged to remain on the land. Like Australians, the Americans are gradually leaving the soil. It has been found essential, as an inducement to encourage them to remain or take up land, to make money easily obtainable. That is done in Ame•rica under the Farm Loan Act.

Mr. CoLLINS: You are getting quite radical since yoq have been in opposition.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: The liberality of the advances made in America really le·ave this proposal of the Minister's right away in the background. The American system will make advances, not only for cattle, but for sheep, and not only for live stock, but for implements. It has be-en found again and ,again that a properly equipped farm can be worked to the greatest advantage if the management is assisted by the Government. I think, on reflection, that the Minister will realise that the chief purpose of this measure, if the promise made by the Premier in the old land regarding the development of Queensland is to be realised, will be achieved by increasing the scope of the Bill in the way suggested by the amendment. I have much pleasure in supporting the amendment. If the Bill is widened in the way suggested, then farmers will be given an opportunity to

secure the-ir implements and stock, and it will lead to bringing about what is very much desired-namely, the increased production and a lessening of the cost of living.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: I had no idea that the suggestion which I made to the Minister would me•et with so hostile a reception as it did. I can assure the Minister I made the suggestion with the best of intentions.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : I accept it in that spirit.

Hox. J. G. ArrEL: I had in my mind that in the South Coast district, owing to the severe and continuous labour involved on dairy farms. there are• many families who have not got children of a suitable age who have been compelled to abandon their means of livelihood owing to the ad verse seasons of the last ~"ear or t,wo and the consequent heavv l<>ss of stock. They were compelled to lo;k ·about for some other means of making a livelihood, and, on the recommendation of those who understood the matter, they en­gag<'d in the breeding of sheep for the pur­pose of lamb-raising and sale of the sheep when matured. And it has proved so remunerative, and the labour involved is so much less than that involved in dairying,

that I was impelled to make the [4.30 p.m.] suggestion that the Minister

should include advances to farme·rs for the purpose of securing stud sheep, in order that they might be able to obtain the best class of animal for their purpose.

Mr. PETERSON: What would you suggest?

HoN. J. G. APPEL: I am not prepared to offer a suggestion. I have in my mind a family who were compelled to relinquish dairying. They were living in a fertile dis­trict, but, unfortunately, owing to dry con­ditions it proved unsuitable, and they lost all thpir stock. Tlwy entered into the busi­ness of sheE>p-breeding, and were making a success of it. It was necessary that they should obtain suitable stud sheep for making it a still greater success, and they went to the Agricultural Bank for the nurpose of obtaining an advance, but were- advised that the bank was unable to make an advance for that purpose. Members who have already spoken have indicated also that sheep-raising is proving remunerative,, and that it is a good addition to the means of living of those settled on our coastal lands, whilst it pro­vides-as it will unquestionably if carried out-cheaper mqat. As we know, the greatest portion of the mutton consume·d in the metro­politan area and the large centres has to be railed many hundreds of miles in some in­stanPr's, whereas if as,istance were given to settlers in the coastal districts there would be mutton close at hand, besides providing them with a means of livelihood which will not entail so m-qch child labour as dairying. I yet hope that the Minister will accept the suggestion, because, after all is said and done·, surely, because we happen to be sitting on this side of tlw House-,

}llr. CoLLINS : You never used to take a sing le suggestion of ours.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: I took many a sug­gestion and accepted many an amendment from hon. members sitting on that side of the House•. Surely to goodness, if a suggestion comes from this side of the House-if the

Hon. J. G. Appel.]

410 Go-operative Agricultural [ASSEMBLY.] Production, Etc., Bill.

intention is to better the conditions of the 'maller farmers and selectors-it should not be turned down because it comc·s from this side of the House!

The AcTnm PRE~IIER : Make a reasonable suggestion. But reasonable suggestions seldom come from that side.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: That was my object, and it never entered mv mind that the amend­ment would receive so· hostile a reception.

::Ylr. F. A. CooPER: Where was the hostile reception?

Hox. J. G. APPEL: The hon. member knows the way in which the Minister received the suggested amendments.

Mr. F. A. CooPER: You misunderstood him.

Hox. J. G. APPEL': Then I will take it in that way, and I only hope that he will con­sent ~o widen the scope of the motion so' that men m the coastal districts desirous of engag­ing_ in this industry may receive the necessary -assistance.

Mr. MOORE (.4.ubigny): I also wish to support the amendment because I look upon sheep as being amongst the greatest weed scavengers tlwre are. L:ndoubtedly a lot of fee? goes to waste at different times upon ~h!Ch sheep can be put. Sheep on small hold­mgs are profitable, and every man on the land would have a far o-reater chance of making a living if he wer~ able to buy suffi­cient sheop to keep down the surplus feed that. grows when cultivation is not going on. I thmk that there is nothing unreasonable in the suggestion that the Minister should accept ~uch an amendment as this. It is not depart­mg from any policy of the party. There is no reasonable objection why it should not be accepted. It would only widen the scope just a little bit, so as to enable men who are not in a position to go in for dairying to get a few sheep by taking advantage of the Act. There is one other thing I want to point out-that is, that I cannot understand how it is that the Minister has not taken advantage,of the advice of the hon. member for N orrnanby, and bred cattle to be sold to the peop!e at reasonable prices, rather than advance l!l money to buy in the open market the cast-offs of other herds.

Mr. PETERSON : That is coming.

M~·· MOO RE : It was a very reasonable sug­gestiOn. It was perhaps not worked out in •a professional way-everything was put down on a theoretical basis-but still the idea was a good one, and if the Minister could see his way to accept the suggestion of the hon. member for Normanbv It would be a great deal better for small· farmers who want to purchase stock. We know that good dairy cattle are scarce, and even when advances are g~ven farmer~ will not be able to get the pick, and Will have to take cast-offs whereas, if they got their beasts from ~ Go\"ernment breeding establishment, they would be able to get the best from that estab­lishment at any rate. I hope that the hon. member for Normanby, being a country mem­ber, will be able to use his influence with the Minister and see that what he advocates is embodied in the Bill, instead of sitting down behind him and allowing him to bring in a Bill which, perhaps, he knows a little about, although he has a country member anxious to give advice which would be accepted.

[Hon. J. G . .AppeZ:

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: I can well understand. the desire of hon. members opposite to get an amendment in. to-day, because they feel that without enlarg­ing the scope of th" Bill it fs not possible to· get it in later on. I want to give an assur­ance to hon. members. If they will look at the description of the Bill they will see that it is a Bill--

" To amend the Co-operative Agricul­tural Production Act of 1914 by extend­ing its provisions so as to enable· advances to be made to farmers for certain objects, and for other purposes."

I contend that those "other purposes" are sufficiently elastic to enable me to accept in. Committee the amendment which has been forecasted.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: Will the hon. mem­ber accept it?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: If you will allow me, I will tell you what I want to do; I cannot say everything at once. There is another very important matter which hon. members opposite seem to have ignored. The Governor has been asked to give a message for certain objects, and recommends that appropriation be ma·de for those objects. The hon. member for Albert knows that I cannot agree to that amend­ment on the spot; but I under.take that if members opposite nostpone the amendment until a more suitable occasion-that is, in Committee, may be, with alterations that are desired, I will accept the amendment.

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: But let hon. members bear in mind that it will be within limitations, or somewhat on the same lines of limitation fixed in the BilL Anyone know,;--on the subject cf sheep­that a number of people, mortgage com­panies, banks, and others are always ready and willing to advance money to buy sheep.

Mr. :i.\100RE: Oh, me they? (Laughter.)

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: I know thev are. I venture to say that hon. members do not know banks which are more anxious to advance money to buy cattle and pigc. Having regard particu­larly to the fact that the North Coast dis­trict has been shown to be suitable for sheep­raising, and that my department has given very active assistance and done very excel­lent work in that direction, I think it would be fitting that in this amendment of the Act there should also i.Je included a provision dealing with sheep, and we will include them.

Mr. VowLES: Will you include cotton­growing?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: No. I will accept reasonable amendments.

Mr. ROBERTS: I am very glad to hear the explanation of the :Minister, and I think that those who have moved and supported the amendment may be satisfied. On the strength of the assurance given. I ask to he allowed to withdraw the amendment.

The SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the· House that the hon. member be allowed t-o withdraw his amendment?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Amendment withdrawn accordingly. Question put and passed.

Elections Act (27 AUGUST.] Amendment Bill. 411!

ELECTIO.:\S AUT A~fEND:MENT BILL.

INITIATION.

Hox. \V. GILLIES (Eaclwm), moving-

111

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirable­ness of introducing e. Bill to amend the Elections Act of 1915 in certain J1ar­ticulars,"

said: The object of this Bill briefh- is to give effect to the recommendations .. of the returning officers and others who administer the present Act throughout the country and to make certain alterations with regard to the franchise. The intention in the latter respect briefly is. to insure the franchise to all persons of e1ghteen years of age and upwards, subject to the qualifications men­tioned in section 11 of the Ad, and to ensure that once those persons are enrolled they shall remain on some roll in the State until they are disqualified under the provision of that section or leave the State permanently. That is one of the main ohjects of the BilL A further provision is made with regard to polling-booths at hospitals. It is proposed that such booths shall be available only to the inmates of the hospitals, if ttnother polling-booth is within half a mile distance. It has sometimes been found that people unnecessarily avail themselves of the hos­pital booths to the annoyance of the inmate>-; when there are other booths in the same town. It also provided that inmates of hos­pitals-temporary inmates, of course-shall remain on the roll for the district for which they were enrolled, similarly to the inmates at Dunwich. There is also a pro­vision, the necessity for which was shown by the experience of the last clec·tion, to t lw effect that the :Minister, on the recommen­dation of the returning officer, may post­pone a poll in the case of a cvclone.' Hon. members will remember that during the last election we experienced very great diffi­culty in the Herbert district owing to a cyclone that took place just at the time of the election, and power is being taken that in the event of such a thing happening again the poll may be postponed from tinw to time. It is also proposed to extend the hours of polling from 6 o'clock a.m to 8 o'clock p.m. so as to bring the State ElE'c­tions Act into line with the Federal Elec­tions _\et. '.rhe object of this, of course, is not so much to enable anyone to record a vote, but because of the confusion which exists in the minds of many people as to the hours of closing. It is also proposed that absent and postal voting papers shall be printed, or, if it is not po,sible to have them printed, type­written or written by the presiding or returning officer. 'I'he object is to make the system uniform, so that the voter will bP able to record his vote by plttcing a cross opposite the name of the candidate of his choice, the same as in the case of the ordi­nary ballot paper. The Bill also provided that contingent Yotcs shttll be counted at the same time as ordinttry votes. \Ye had some experience during the lttst election ,,,·hich lead us to believe that if the contingent votes were sueh as to swav tlw election it should be counted when tlie ordinarv votc>s are counted. 'I' he balance of the provisions are mainly n1achinery clauses or clausPs to remove anomalies which <'xperience has shown exist i·n the Elections Act of 1916. I

think that is all the information that is necessary for me to convey to the House at this stage, and I move the motion accord­ingly.

Mr. :MAOARTNEY (Toowong): I am sorrv I did not hear all the hon. gentleman said. on the point. I did not catch whether it is proposed to assimilate the State rolls to the Federal rolls. That is an amendment of the law that would be not only economical, but it would save an immense amount of· trouble in striking off a number of names from the roll. The principal part of the Bill, as I understand, is the provision extending the franchise to boys and girls of eighteen years of age.

Mr. OOLLINS: They were old enough to go to the front.

Mr. MAOARTXEY: I do not want to discuss that question just now. I do not want it to be understood for a moment that this side is going to give the slightest coun­tenance 'to any proposal of that sort. If the ::'vlinistry think that boys of eighteen who ha vc gone to the front should get a vote, then they will find that the Opposition are willing to support them in that. Boys who have accepted the highest form of citizenship -the boy who has risked his life in the >"Crvice of his COUntry-is entitled to the grC'ah'st considC'ration; but it is no use 'aving that because half a dozen, or a few h,{ndr<>-cl boys, have gone to the front with the permission of their parents-that that <'ntitll'R children of eighteen-children who cannot be t>xpect!'d to understand the ques­tions im·olved in politics-to a vote. It is an absurditY, and it is onlv an hon. member like the 'hon. member for Bowen who would propose ,,uch a thing.

Mr. 0oLLIX8: The hon. member for Bowen knew a good deal when he was eighteen.

Mr. MAOARTXEY: I am quite prepared to admit tha.t the hon. member knew more than he ought to l1ave known when he was ('ighteen, but, at the same time, I do not think he was then able to give what you \muld call a balanced vote. It is beyond my f'omprehemion why the proposal is intro­ducc>d. It may have an effect on the body politio when voting time comes round, but 1 do not think it is to the credit of th!l :\linistry that they should endeavour t? obtain political support on a basis of that r;ort.

Hon. vY. N. GILLIES: They might support your side.

Mr. ::\IACARTNEY: We will have the privilege of discussing the matter at greater length at a later stage of the Bill. For the moment, my object in rising is to say that the proposition to extend tho franchise to young people is not going to have any <·otmtena nee froni this side of the House.

::.Vlr. CORSER : I am rather disappointed in this Bill, as one of the greatest anomalies in tht> pre,cnt Act i~ evidently omi~t~d. The Bill should have mcluded a proviSIOn w do a\\ ay with the present roll-stuffing if possible. 'I'here is a tremendous number of p<'oplc on the roll.

::.VIr. OOLLD;s : Arc you an expert at that?

~lr- OORSER: 'I'herc is a tremendous numbl'r of people on the roll over and above the number of persons in the State, and there arc no possible means of cleansing the

Mr. Corser.]

412 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] A ·nendment BUl.

rolls. The Minister must know, and does know, that we have no opportunity of having clean rolls in this State. There are more names on the State rolls than there are on the Commonwealth rolls for Queensland. People are enrolled for two or three different district•, and there is no provision at aJ! to have their names taken off. I would like to know from the Minister whether he has introduced an amendment to make provision to clean the rolls. Surely the Government are prepared to accept the idea that it is safest and best to have a clean roll-one man one vote ! People may ha.vo left a district for years and they cannot be and will not be removed from the roll; they cannot be removed except they signify in their claim for enrolment for another electorate that they are on such and such a roll. They have not done that and they stay on the roll.

The SPEAKER : Order ! I do not like to be continually calling the hen. member to order, but I would point out that this discussion is quite outside the rules of debate.

Mr. CORSER: I am merely asking the Minister for information in that regard.

The SPEAKER : The hon. member is dis­mssing the administration of the Electoral Department.

Mr. CORSER : It is not a matter of admin­istration; it is a question of an Act of Parliament, and I ask the Minister if he can give us information as to whether this amending Bill makes provision to do away with that anomaly?

Hon. \V. X. GlLLIES: What anomaly? You refer to a clean roll. The interpretation of a clean roll by a Liberal is a roll with no Labourites on it.

Mr. CORSER : The Minister is making a joke of it. Will the Minister tell us whether the Bill provides for a redistribution of seats in order to bring about one vote one value? We have not hc·ard anything from him in that connection.

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hen. mem­ber can in no way corrnect those remarks with the motion before the House.

Mr. CORSER: I am endeavouring to do so.

~he SPEAKER : I will read the procedure whiCh should be foUowed at this stage " May" says- ·

. "In rr:·aking a motion for leave to bring m a Bill, a member may explain the object of the Bill, and give reasons for its introduction; but unless the n1otion be opposed, this is not the proper time for any lengthened debate upon its merits.''

The hon. member may oppose the Bill intro­duced by the Minister, but he is not doing that. He is suggesting that certain things be included.

Mr. CORSER: No.

The SPEAKER : Order ! I shaH read further from " May" on the question-

" When an important measure is offered by a Minister or other member, this opportunity is frequently taken for a full exposition of its character and objects; but otherwise, debate should be avoided at this stage, unless it be e;xpected that the motion will ~e nega­tiVed, and that no future occasiOn will arise for discussion."

[Mr. Gorser.

A future occasion will arise. The hon. member may ask for information, but he is not in order in discussing something when the House does not know whether it is in the Bill or not. If there were not a future occasion for discussion, I would give the hon. member every latitude, but there will be a future occasion when the merits of the Bill may be discussed.

Mr. VowLES: The motion may be nega­tived.

The SPEAKER : The hon. member may oppose the J'!lOtion, and if he oppo~es i~ out­right and gives reasons for opposmg It, he may proceed, but he is not doing that.

Mr. CORSER : I am seeking information. The SPEAKER: 01'der! I shall have to

keep calling the qon. member to order if he goes outsid-e the rules of debate.

Mr. CORSER: I would like to know from the Minister--

The SPEAKER : I would like to point out to the hon. member that the leader of the Opposition definitely stated that he opposed the proposal, and the hon. member will be in order in doing so. Surely the hon. mm:1ber recognises the difference between defimtely opposing a thing and in suggp,;ting that something else should be included !

Mr. CORSER : I am opposing it. The SPEAKER : The hon. member spoke

about clean rolls. Mr. CORSER: I am asking whether pro­

vision is made in the Bill for the cleansing of the rolls, and to provide for a redistribu­tion of seats.

Hon. W. N. GILLIES: The hon. member should know perfectly well that a redistribu­tion of seats is provided for under a different Act altogether-under the Electoral Act of 1910.

Mr. CORSER: The Minister knows that he could provide for it in this Bill, and I want to know from him whether he has done so.

Hon. W. N. GILLIES: Ko, and I do not intend to do it.

Mr. CORSER : I also ask the Minister whether he has made provision to bring about the cleansing of the rolls so that only individuals in the State can vote, and only be on one roll.

Hon. \V. N. GILLIES: I want your defini­tion of a clean roll first.

Mr. VOWLES (Dalby): I intend to oppose this motion and the Bill when it comes before the House. The Minister in charge of the Bill gave certain information, and if I fol­lowed hi;; words rightly he made some refer­ence to the fact that the Bill made provision that if a person was on anotper roll in Queensland he must stay on, that so long as he is on a roll he cannot be r·emoved.

Hon. W. N. GILLIES: I did not say that. I said he cannot be removed from a roll unless by transfer or unless by disqualifica­tion.

Mr. VOWLES: That is the point the hon. member for Burnett was inquiring about. There' are no means of cleansing the roll. Once a man is on the roll there are no means of taking him off-so long as he is in Queens­land you cannot take him off. It is desirable that there should be some amendment of the Elections Act, by which persons can be re­moved from a roll after they have left the

Elections Act [27 AcousT.] Amendment Bill. 413

district for which thev are enrolled. With regard to the main t)oint of the motion­that is, the alteration of the age from twenty-one years to eighteen ·years-I think it is preposterous, but if you are going to give a boy or girl of immature years power to control the destinies of the State, then you must give them the privilege of sitting in this House; because .as electors they are entitled to the full benefit, and then we would possibly have the farce of having children in this House. The claim that they should have a vote is base·d on the fact that boys of eighteen years of age were allowed to go to the front and fight. As the leader of the Opposition said, every boy who went a way to fight is entitled to a vote, and if thB Gowrnment like to bring in legislation in that direction we are quite prepared to stand behind them, but it will reduce the whole thing to a farce to give children a vote.

Mr. CoLLINS interjected. Mr. VOWLES: The hon. member is harp­

ing on the question of conscription. He said hon. members on this side sent boys of eighteen years of age to the front, but the people decided that they were not to go, so that they have no call upon us or upon any­one else for special privileges. One other matter, referred to by the Minister, is the question of counting the contingent votes at the same time as the primary votes. I think that is desirable from this point of view : On two occasions within my knowle·dge that there has been a three-cornered contest, mud has been thrown at the officials who con­ducted the elections because the Labour can­didates lost the seats. Suggestions were made in my own case four years ago, when I had a triangular contest, that the papers were faked, and I have heard somewhat the same suggestion in connection with the Pittsworth election.

Hon. W. 1'\. GILLIES: Who suggested that? Mr. VO\YLES: I ha Ye heard it suggeste-d

in this House. The Minister suggested it. It is not fair to those gentlemen who have to conduct elections, and I venture to say that if those suggestions were made outside this House the man who made them would be in the court very quickly. Knowing the game, I have always counted my contingent votes while the primary vot<es were being counted, so that I knew exactly where I stood; and so did my scrutineers. It can be done very quickly, and there would not be the uncertainty that there is on these occasions. It would be a good thing for the candidates, and it would be a good thing for the reputation of those persons who haYe to conduct elections.

There are many anomalies in our Elections Act. I sincerely trust that afte·r we point out certain things to the Minister on the second reading and Committee• stages, and move amendments, he will accept our amend­ments. The first object of a Government should be to have an honest roll, and there should be· no possibility of personation. Names which should be struck off should not be allowed to remain on the roll for a number of years with no possibility of removal. If the name of a person who is dead, or who has left the State, remains on the roll, there is then an inducement to some other person to come along and exercise the vote. During some of our recent elections there were many men who were lying out at Toowong who recorde-d votes, according to the electoral officer's return.

J1_1r. KIRWAN: You Ol\ght to read the artJC!e in the " Courier" on '" Bulcocking" the rolls a few years ago.

Mr. VOWLES: The Government should be p~epared to !j>ive, us. an honest roll. If they wlll not put it Witlun the power of members of organisations to have the rolls pure, we can only assume• that it is for a political purpose.

Mr BRE:-<NAN: How long has the system been in operation.

Mr. VOWLES': The system I am talking about was brought into being by the Govern­ment in this Election Act. I say that it is wrong and should be rectified.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: I would like to know from the Minister whether the scope of the Bill is sufficiently large to permit of amend­ments in connection with preferential voting and proportional voting being moved and em­bodied in the measure. These matte·rs have been included in the Acts of the other States and of the Commonwealth. The Minister says that he proposes that the· present age of twenty-one years shall be reduced to eighteen years. Is the scope of the Bill sufficiently large to enable the· age to be still further rc·dl!ced? There may be some mem­bers who consider that at the age of fourteen when our childre•n leave school they should be entitled to Yote. (Government laughter.) I take it that all that may be said in favour of the age of eighteen will apply to the age of fourteen.

Hon W. N. GrLLIES: In Committee you can move the deletion of "eighteen" with a view to substitute " fourteen."

HoN. J. G. APPEL: Is the scope of the motion sufficiently wide?

Hon. W. N. GrLLIES: Yes. HoN. J. G. APPEL: I would like to ask

if the scope is . sufficiently large to permit of amendments m connection with the num­be·r of voters in electorates. In some elec­torates there are 12,000 electors and in others only 2,000. If one vote is to be of one value there should be an equalisation of electorates so that e·ach elector should have an equai vote. If there is any virtue in universal fran­c~ise each elector should have• an equal right, which, under present conditions, he does not possess.

Hon. W. N. GrLLIES: That comes unde·r another Act.

~0!". J. G .. APPEL: Yes, but is the scope suffiCiently wide to enable us to deal with th_at matter at the opportune moment? Then, with regard to the purifying of the rolls I take it that the· Minister is prepared to d~al with that matter at the proper moment.

Hon. W. N. GrLLIES: There is ample pro­vision for what I believe to be the necessary purification of the rolls.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: I take it that only those who are alive• and entitled to the fran­chise will be entitled to be on the roll. I would urge the Minister, if necessary, to enlarge the scope of the measure with refer­ence to t~e matters which have been brought before him by hon. members on this side especially with reference to the purificatio~ of the rolls and the eqt!alisation of electo­rates, so that on whatever side of the House we are we can at least say that our elec­torates am above reproach. The Minister

Hon. J. G . .Appeq

414 Elections Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

has an opportunity of making a name for himself, and I urge him to be true to his democratic principles, and, if it is not already contained in the measure, to take the neces­sary pow0r, so that electoral matters in Queensland may be above reproach, and a true democratic decision may be arrived at at the forthcoming elections. (Hear, hear l) * Mr. SIZER : I would like to know from the Minister whether this Bill is of sufficient scope to provide for proportional repre,en­tation.

Hon. W. N. GILLIES: Yes. Mr. SIZER: As I have that assurance, and

as this is the only opportunity we shaH have, I intend to move the insertion, after " 1915" on line 3, of the words " including pro­vision for proportional representation." I do not know whether the Minister is pre­pared to accept that amendment. If he is, there is no need for me to say anything further.

Hon. W. N. GILLIES: Let us hear your definition of proportional representation first.

Mr. SIZER: I hope that, as the Minister is in a favourable frame of mind, we shall have brought into operation in Queensland that which we have been supposed to have for a long time-one man one vote, on<:· vote one value; and that the majority rule and the majority govern. I hope we shall see that principle established in this State as it has been in other States of Australia and in other parts of the world. I ·feel certain that I have the sympathy of many hon. members opposite. In 1914, the hon. member for Keppel moved a resolution in this House (vide '' Hansard," 1914, p. 931)-

" That, in the opinion of this House, the Elections Act and the Electoral Dis­tricts Act should be amended so as to provide for the election of members of the Legislative Assembly by means of proportional representation."

I have read the speech of the hon. member for Keppel on that occasion very carefully, and think that he is to be congratulated upon it. The hon. member quoted such authori­tie" as Earl Grey, H. H. Asquith, P.hilip Snowden, and many other men of different shades of political opinion in support of his motion.

Mr. CoLLINS: You would not follow Philip Snowden very far during the war.

Mr. SIZER: I am sufficiently broad­minded to follow a m·an when he is on right lines. (Government laughter.) This system has been in operation in Tasmania and Belgium for many years, and it has recently been brought into operation in Great Britain. It was also included in the proposed Home Rule Bill for Ire·land. The object is to bring about one IPan one vote, and one vote one value, which is a fair thing and all that we ask for. Members in this Assembly should represent a majority of the people and not a minority. When the minorities have recorded their votes they should get the measure of representation which is due to them. In Queensland to-day, electoral districts are divided by an imaginary line. In the Cairns electorate the people have onlv half the voting va-lue of those living in Kennedy, and the people in the Nundah elec­torate only one-third of the voting value of the electors of Queenton. The people in Toombul have only one-third of the representation enjoyPd by the people who live in Charters Towers.

[Hon. J. G . .Appel.

The SPEAKER : Order ! Do I understand the hon. member is moving an amendment?

Mr. SIZER: Yes.

The SPEAKER: Will the hon. member hand me a copy of his amendment~

[Mr. Sizer handed up a copy of his amend­ment.]

Mr. SIZER : An elector in Chillagoe has five times the voting power that an elector in Bulirnba has. I .ask, not in a political sense, is that a fair thing?

Hon. J. G. APPEL: No, it is not.

:Mr. SIZER: Is it a fair thing that a man should be returned here with votes which have f1ve times a greater value than the votes of any other man sitting on the oppo­site side of the House? That, obviously, destroys our very principle of one man one vote, because we have in actual practice one man with the value of five votes. I think as a 1·rsult of this that we should have some alter­ation in our present system. There is a large number of people in this community, and every other community .. which does not enjoy proportional representation, who have never, or hardly ever, cast an effective vote in their lives. I hope members will see the differ­ence between an effective vote and a non­effective vote. Take the single-member elec­torat~s to-day. For instance, there may be 5,001 votes cast for one candidate, and he is returned. There may be 4,999 votes cast against him for the other candidate, but those votes >are rendered ineffective on account of the other man having a majority of two votes. The people who recorded the 4,999 votes cannot say that they are repre­sented in Parliament by anyone, because their vot<:'s have been ineffective. Hon. members will therefore realise that there is a difference between an effective vote and a non-effective vote. Regar.ding the single­member electorates, it is true that, despite the fact that the Government of the day happen to get something like 180,000. as against 150,000 votes recorded by this party, it would have been possible if that same number of votes had been concentrated in the electorates of Flinders, Barcoo, and Mitchell for the party opposite to have only returned three members to this House.

The ACTING PREMIER: How do you explain that?

Mr. SIZER: It is quite possible if there were concentrated in the Barcoo, Mitchell. and Flinders electorates the 180,000 Labour votes that were recorded last election, only three Labour members would have been returned. although they polled, in the aggre­gate, the same number of votes as elected forty-eight members.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: Rubbish!

Mr. SIZER: At the last election the Labour part'" ha·d a majoritv of 25,000 votes over and above those cast "for the Liberal partv. If those 25,000 votes were distributed equally over the electorates now represented bv this side there would not have been one member of the Opposition in the House to· dav. (Government laug-hter.) That is appa­rent by virtue of the fact that the 25,000 votes would have been so cast over the different electorates that the Government would have had a major1ty in every electorate, and, although this side had 154,000 votes cast in its favour, it would have been impossible in that case to have had one member of the

Elections Act [27 AUGUST.] Amendment Bill. 415

Opposition returned. The hon. member for Keppel will realise that what I am saying about proportional representation is per-fectly correct. ·

Mr. LARcOMBE : You should have re<1lised it before you got into opposition.

Mr. SIZER : I was not a member of the House when the matter was discussed befOl'e. I therefo:e cannot be held responsible for any shortcommgs of the late Government in that direction. We know verv well that in the last Senate election the National party throughout Australia got a majoritv of some thousands of votee. •

Mr. GrLDAY : How did they get them? :!'.1r. SIZER: It does not matter how they

;oat them. Mr. GILDAY: By manipulating the soldiers'

votes. Mr. SIZER: Although the Nation<ll party

got a comparatively small majority over the whole of Australia, still they captured the whole of the seats, and Labour on that ocoa­.sion got none, despite the f<1ct that the Labour votes poll~d tota_lled nearly 1,000,000 votes. Anyone will realise that such a thing as that is ridiculous. There are thousands of people in the State and in the Common­wealth disfranchised so far as the Senate is ooncerJOled. I do not favour the system in ·operatiOn to-dav just because it might suit me politically on one occasion and not ori .anoth~r <;>ccasior:. No one can deny the fact that It IS possible for big sections of the oommunity to record thousands of votes and never be able to claim one representative in the House. of Asscm~ly. I will quote some figures which were given by the hon. mem­ber fo_r Keppel when he delivered his speech on this subJect. The hon. member pointed o_ut that in. England,_ d:"ring the 1900 elec­twn, the Liberal maJority on that occasion was 29,877 votes, yet the Conservative partv actually got a majority of 104 seats. Th;, hon. member also pointed out that in South Australia, prior to 1914 Labour had a majority _of yote~ in the 'country, but they boo a mmorrty m the House of Assemblv I mention that to show what a travesty ou~ present electoral system is. It does not give you the correct feeling of the peonle at all, and you do not get the correct results. I would like to compare these results with the results which took place in Tasmania. Once again I take the figures quoted by the hon. member for Keppel. I am using these figures as a contrast to what I placed before :the House just now-

" In 1909, the Tasmanian election showed the Libeml party's proportional share was 18.31, and they .won eighteen seat~. In 1912, the Liberal party's pro­~ortional share was 16.35, and they won sixteen seats. In 1913, the Liberal partv's proportional share was 15.78 and thev won sixteen seats. In those 'three elec­tions the results, so far <1s the Labour party is concerned, also worked out with almost mathematical accuracy. In 1909, the Labour party's proportional share in Tasmania was 11.69, and they won twelve seats. In 1912, the Labour partv's proportional share was 13.65, and tliev won fourteen seats ; and in 1913, the Labour party's proportional shm·e was 13.80, and they won fourteen seats. Hon. members will see that in Tasmania dur­ing the last three elections there the results have been almost mathematicallv accurate. No system could give such

accurate results as were given in the elections in Tasmania under the propor­tional representation system."

I quote these figures from the hon. member for Keppel's speech, and I am sure the hon. member will not mind. I do it in order to compare them with the atrocity on the other side where thousands of people can be dis­franchised. In Tasmania the results were perfectly accurate. There is no doubt that we have to realise it when we have such a system as that, and a system which can be so inaccurate as I ha ye provod it, is not a safe system to remain in operation any longer than it can possibly be helped. When it is realised that it can be opc•n to such inaccuracies, the sooner we ri·d ourselves of it the better. I remind hon. members op­posite that they hold their seats in this Chamber, not by the aid of the Electoral Act, but despite it. With regard to the yoting under proportional representation, I would like to quote the rules laid down by the hon. member for Keppel in his speech.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: I don't know what you would do without his speech.

Mr. SIZER: I have got a lot of informa­tion on the subject. but the hon. member for Keppel has put the whole of the material in such a concise way that it will save me a lot of trouble to use his figures just as he presented them-

" A. Each elector has one vote and ana vote only.

" B. 'I'he elector votes-( a) By placing the figure 1 opposite

the namp, of the candidate he likes best.

He is also invited to place-(b) The figure 2 opposite the name

of his second choice. (c) The figure 3 opposite the name

of his third choice, and so on, numbering as many candidates as he pleases in the order of his preference.

" c. A candidate, to ensure election, need not poll a majority, but only a certain proportion of tha votes cast.

This proportion, which is the least number of votes sufficient to render certain the election of a candidate, is called the quota. Thus, in a single­member constituency a candidate who polls one more than half the votes must be elected ; the quota is therefore one more than half. So, in a two-member constituency the quota is one more than a third, for not more than two candidates can poll so much; and in a three-member constituency one more than a fourth, and <o on. Therefore, to ascertain the quota, divide the total of the vot€S bv one more than the number of seats to be filled and ada one to the result. " D. The returning officer ascertains

the result of the election as follows :-(1) He counts each ballot-paper as one

vote to the candidate marked 1 thereon; he ascertains the number of votes obtaineu by each candidate and the total number of voteo.

(2) He ascertains the quota. (3) He declares elected the candiC!ates

who have received the quota. (4) He transfers in strict proportions

lJ!I r. Sizer.]

416 Electwns Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

the surplus votes of those cancli­dates who have received more than the quota, and credits them to the unelected candidates indicated as the next preferences of the electors whose votes are transferred. (This operation renders all votes effec­tive; voteg are used and not wasted.)

(5) He declares elected those candi­dates who, after the transfer of surplus votes, have obtained the quota.

(6) He eliminates the candidates lowest on the poll one after another by transferrin!': their votes in accor­Jance with the wishes of their sup­porters to the candidates indicated as next preferences. This process is continued until the required number of candidates, having each obtained the quota, have been de­clared elected, or the number of candidates not eliminated is re­duc(•d to the number of seats still vacant, in which event the candi­dates not eliminated are declared elected."

I was saying a few moments ago that the object of this was to secure majority rule and to make every vote effcctiv(l so far as humanly possibl<:'. It is accomplished by this reason : instead of being wasted the vote is transferred. Take, for instance, 10,001 votes in one electorate. All that a candidate requires to b~ elected is one-half, and that means that he must have 5,001 votes. Suppose a man gets 6,001 votes he has got 1,000 ~more votes than he actually requires. There iR no use for a single-member electorate whatever. ~ The only thing to do is to group a number of electorates together and concentrate thQ minorities. '\Ve will then reap the benefit of the transfers. Take the cases of the candidates who have got more votes than they require. For all pur­poses we decide to transfer some of the

surplus votes in accordance with [5.30 p.m.] the expr<'ssed wishes of the

elector. I hope hon. members will follow this, because I know it is some­what tricky and rather difficult to grasp immediately. For that reason I will read it somewhat slowly-

" Take the case of an election for several seats, wh~re the necessary quota is 6,000, and where a favourite candidate, whom we will call A, has received the first votes of 10,000 voters. Though all those voters have agreed in putting the samQ candidate first, they are divided as to whom they wish to be returned next. Six thousand of them put B as their second choice, and the other 4,000 C. If the 6,000 votes which A requires are drawn wholly from the AB votes, the result of the transfer will be that C is credited with 4,000 votes and B with none. This would be clearly unfair, for, in reality, B has received among A's voters much more support than 0. To use up the 4,000 AC votes and only 2,000 AB votes, and to transfer 4,000 votes to B and none to C would be equally un­fair to C. The course which is exactly fair to both B and C is that the votes which are transferred should be divided between them in th'i! same proportion as that in which the opinions of the whole number of A's supporters is divided. That is to say, strict justice will be done

[Mr. Sizer.

if every 1,000 votes which are used or transferr~d are made up of 600 AB votes and 400 AC votes. Accordingly, A's quota of 6,000 must be made up of 3,600 AB votes and 2,400 AC votes, and the 4,000 papers left to be transferred will consequently consist of 2,400 votes for B and 1,600 votes for 0."

That is somewhat difficult, and I would not be surprised if m~mbers were unable to follow it at this juncture, but if they read it carefully in " Hansard" they will realise that the whole object is that as the people recor·d their wishes on the ballot-papQrs so· does their choice go in the selection of their candidate. With the transfer of that vote, in any electorate where there may be so· many thousand National, so many thousand Labour, and so many thousand Socialist supporters-and it does not matter how many candidates are in the field-if those persDns vote true to their convictions the figures will show that the numb~r of seats will go in exact proportion to the number of votes cast, and nothing in the world can prevent it. After we have transferred the surplus, we come to the question of eliminating th~ bottom votes.

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mem­ber is not .dealing with the amendment of the Elections Act, but is dealing with a. possible amendment of the Electoral Districts Act providing for proportional representa­tion. I find that there is already a law which makes provision for electoral districts. If the hon. member's proposal were carried, it would be impossible, under th<i! Elections Act, to make provision for proportional representation.

Mr. SIZER: My conte_ntion is, that if the Governm<;)nt signify their willingness to­accept this system as a proper system, they will consequently amend the Electoral Dis­tricts Act.

The SPEAKER: What I have to see is if the amendment is in order, and it must accomplish something to be in order. It is only moved for the· pm·pos<;) of discussion, it is not in order, and I must rule it out of order.

Mr. SIZER: Probably, owing to the fact that I am a new member, I am not informed as to the proper formality to be observed.

The SPEAKER : It is not a question of formality at all. Tl:!f amendm<;'nt is quite correctly worded, but it is a proposaT to amend the Elections Act to provide fDr pro­portional representation. If it were carried, the Elections Act could not be amended to provid<;) for proportional representation.

Mr. SIZER: It could if the Government. were willing to do it.

The SPEAKER: That has nothing to do with me.

Mr. SIZER: The object is to enlarge the scope of the Bill.

The SPEAKER: On the same reasoning the hon. member might enlarge the scope of a Land Bill to provide for proportional representation.

Mr. SIZER: One must admit that the one is the corollary of the other. After all, there may be a technical difficulty, but they are pa.rt and parcel of each other.

The SPEAKER : The Elections Act deals with the franchise, and the Electoral Dis­tricts Act provides for seventy-two members and single constituencies. The latter Act

Elections Act, Etc., Bill. [27 AuGUST.] Buccrssion ... ict, Etc., Bill. 417

is the one that the hon. member desires to amend, but the amendment of that Act is not before the House. I am not concerned with wbat the Government might do as the result of an amendment which might be carried.

1\Ir. SIZER : When we are dealing with the question. we should amend the law so as to make the electoral laws the best it is possible to have.

The SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. mem­ber must recognise the difference-that we are dealing with the Elections Act now and not with the Electoral Districts Act.

Mr. SIZER: I realise that there might be a difference. but I do think that for the purpose I have in view this amend­ment might very well be allowed in this Bill, because, after all, it is part and parcel of the other.

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mem­ber cannot show me how the placing of it in this Bill will have the effect desired. Parliament would have to consider an amend­ment of the other Act. I quite understand the hon. member's position, but that is not my fault.

Mr. SIZER: \Ve are going to deal with the electoral machinery of the State. and it is the desire of a large number of the people in the country--

:Mr. FRY: The majority. Mr. SIZER : It is their desire to have a

fair system. Do I understand that such a system is ou~side the scope of this particular debate?

The SPEAKER: Yes. This is the Elec­tions Act that is being dealt with.

Mr. SIZER: I am very sorry. Do you not think that it could be allowed to go in in this measure, as it is an important ques­tion, and the Government could take it as a ruling and then bring in a consequential amendment of the other Act?

The SPEAKER: The hon. member has the opportunity, as a member of Parliament, to move a motion dealing with the other Act. He must understand that, unle'is a motion is introduced by the Government or a private member, he cannot deal with such a matter. The discussion must be relevant to that motion. The proposal is to amend the Elections Act, not the Electoral Districts Act.

Mr. SIZER : I do not care whether the electoral districts exist or not, so long as it is provided that the Elections Act is amended to provide for proportional representation.

The SPEAKER: That would be all right in the right place, but it &hould be on the Electoral Districts Act. Unfortunately for the hon. member, that is not the proposal.

Mr. SIZER : Do I understand t.hat I am not in order?

The SPEAKER : The hon. niember 1s certainly not in order.

Mr. SIZER: And therefore I will not be allowed to proceed?

The SPEAKER: No. The hon. member cannot proceed with his amendment at this time.

Mr. SIZER: If you rule it out of order, it is just as well that I do not proceed now; it will serve no purpose.

The SPEAKER: That is not my fault. Mr. SIZER : If it were carried, it would

be a direct instruction to the Government

1919-2 D

that the Hou;e were in favour of propor­tional representatioH, and they would make the necessary amendment.

The SPEAKER : The hon. member must frame his amendment so that it is in order. It certainly is not in order now.

Mr. SIZER : Might I ask you how I should franie it so that it will be in order?

The SPEAKER: Order! His amendment is not in order on this Bi11.

Question put and passed.

SUCCESSIOX ACT OF 1906 DECLARA­TORY BILL.

INITIATION. Hox. W. N. GILLIES in moving-

" That leave be given to introduce a Bill t{) remove a doubt as to the meaning and effect of the Succession Act of 1906,"

said: This i'' a very short measure, consist­ing of two clauses, to declare the meaning of the Succeccsion Act passed in 1906. It is rPally the result of the representations of Mr. Mole, the officer who administers the Public Curator's Department, aud the judges themselves. The point has arisen out of a case that was dealt "ith by the Full Court of Queensland in February of this year, the case of Mary Marshall, deceased, and as a result of the decision of the court by a majority, it was thought necessary to intro­duce this measure to make it quite clear what Parliament meant. I do not think it is necessary for me to give any further reasons just now.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Do I understand the hon. member to say that this Bill is rendered necessary by reason of a judgment in a court in a case that is rtill sub judice?

Hon. W. N. GrLLJES: Yes, it is rendered necessary by a decision of the court, and a suggestion from the judges that Parliament should make the position quite clear bv amending the Act. "

;\fr. MACARTNEY: It is a most objection­able practice if the case is still sub judice. The hon. member's remarks remind me of a case before the High Court.

Hon. vV. X. GILLIES: No, the case is decided.

Mr. 2.1ACARTNEY: A case has been con­sidered during the last week or two, I believe, by the High Court or the Full Court of Queensland, and I am not aware that judgment has been given.

Hon. VV. X. GrLLIES: Judgment was given in February.

Mr. MACARTXEY: I honestly believe that a case actually on the point is before the judges now, and surely it is not right to in­h·oduce legislation touching pending litir,-a­twn. It is at least common decency to wait until the judgment is givpn. Of cotu',e, if the judgment says that the law is not what it "hould be. then it is quite within the rights of the Legislature to make an .alteration, but ordinarily the Leg:slature does not step in to alter the rights of parties before the \'curt. It is a rnost objectionable feature.

Hon. W. N. GrLLIES: I have no knowledge of the case you refer to.

i\rr. MACARTKEY: I think the hon. member would be wise to make inquiries.

Hon. \V. N. GrLLIEH: Wait and sPe the Bill. Mr. VOWLES (Dalby) : I think there is a

case before the Full Court at the present moment.

Hon. W. N. GrLLIES : What case is that?

Mr. Vowles.]

418 Wo1·kers' Homes Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Workers' Homes Bill.

Mr. VOWLES : Myers, I think, is the name, and the question there is the basis on which a public department shall value the <~apital of an estate, whether there is to be for that purpose an aggregation of the capital outside the State with the interests inside the State.

Hon. W. N. GrLLIES: It does not bear on that at all.

Mr. VOWLES: I notice in that particular case the judge said there was some doubt and that the law ought to be m·ade clear, so I naturally concluded that that was the case ±·eferred to. The Minister has ,aid that this Bill is the result of a request from the judges, and that being so, of course, we must accept it. It is certainly desnable that the law should be made clear, but it all depends as to how that declaration is to take place. I think the House should be supplied with a little more information.

Hon. W. N. GILLIES: Wait till you see the Bill.

Question put and passed.

FIRST READING. On the motion of the HoN. W. N.

{ULLIES the Bill was read a first time. The second reading was made an Order of

the Day for to-morrow.

CONSTITUTION _\CT ACI:IENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION. The ACTING PREMIER, in moving-

" That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Constitution of Queens­land . by aboli&hing the Legislative Counml,''

••aid :_ Tho~e is no necessity for me to explain the mtentron<> of the motion, which is for leave to introduce a similar Bill to that which was rejected last year.

Mr. MACARTNEY: The hon. gentleman has not told us what alterations if any appear in the Bill. ' '

The ACTI.'\G PRDIIER: I sa.id it was on exactly similar lines to the Bill of last year.

Mr. :YlAGART="EY: Does it pro,·ide for a revisory committee?

The ACTING l'REMIER : It is on exactly similar lines to the Bill introduecd last year, which provided for a revisory committee.

Mr. MACARTNEY: I suppo e it is hardlv necessary to tell the hon. gentleman at th(s ,tagc the grounds on which we opposed it last ye:..r.

The AcTIXG PRE~IIER : The grounds for opposing it were very vague a,nd indefinite.

Mr. :iYLcC.\RTNEY: We will trv and im-prove on it this year. '

Question put and passed.

FIRST RLADING. On the motion of the ACTI'!'\G PREMIER

the Bill was read a first time. The second reading of tho Bill was made

an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

\VORKERS' HOMES BILL. lNITIATIOX.

The ACTING PREMIER, in moving-" That the House will, at its next

sitting, resolve itself into a Com­mittee of tho Whole to consider of the

[1llr. Vowles.

desin•ablenes" oi inhodu<·ing a Bill to rnake provision for workers' hnn1eq;/'

said: This is a Bill which carries out the intentions of the Government as expressed in their already announced policy of making better provi,,ion for workers not at present posscoscd of homes to secure homes on the most reasonable termc. The scheme will be more fully explained on the second reading.

. Hon. \V. H. BARNES: Arc you going to give them freehold?

The ACTI:::\G PREMIER: We are going to do better than give them freehold-we are going to give them perpetual !oases and the opportunity of acquiring- comfortable dwellings on very reasonable terms.

Mr. ROBERTS : I understood the Acting Premier to say that the intention is to give leaseholds only, and I would like to know if they propo''' to build terraces or whether they propo~e to erect separate dwellings. Also, I would like to know whether the Bill will be applicable to centres outside the metropolitan area.

The ACTING PREMIER: The scheme will not be a.pplicable to the purchase of individual houses already erected, but will be applied for the purpose of establishing model suburbs or groups of dwellings, and will also apply to districts outside the metro­polikm area.

Mr. ROBERTS: Sa.y, at Toowoomba? The ACTIKG PREMIER: ~\t Toowoomba,

for instance. Mr. CORSER : Then the Minister refuses

to answer my question. Does the Bill pro­vide for individual ownership of homes or for State ownership?

The AcTING PREMIER: Individual owner­ship-they can acquire by purchase.

1\Ir. CORSER: They will be erected by the State and may be purchased?

The ACTIXG PRE~!IER : Yes. ~Ir. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker~-The SPEAKER: Order! I hope the hon.

member does not think the House is in Committee.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: I would like to know, as there is to be leasehold tenure, w he·ther thcc·e will be any regular terms for the reassessment of rents or rcassessme·nt of the ,-aluation of the land. Is this to occur evcrv tc n vcars or will the· land bo passed on a's freehold 1' The tenant cannot own it if it is leasehold.

The ACTING PREMIER: I do not endorse that doctrine.

::Vh. BEBBINGTON: There can be no ownership in connection with a leasehold.

The SPEAKER : Order! 'I'h<:> hon. mem­ber must keep to the· motion.

The Ac l'IXG PREMIER: It will be leasehold only.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Then there is no such thing as private ownership.

Hox. W. H. BARNES: What the Acting Premier has said opens up a very big field for thought. The hon. gentleman has been good enough to inform us that this Bill does not make provision for freehold. I think evuy hon. member will agree that in the pv.st there has been a danger of allowing 1 eside'!1ces to be erected on areas that are much too small for the purpose. That should not be allowed. \Vhilst I am " dPad" against the leasehold principle, I do hope, whatever arrangements are made by the Government,

Unemployed Workers Bill. [:17 AcGUST.] Unemployed TVorkers Bill. 41!)

that, at least, provision will be made for two 'things : (1) to block people building on land that is not suitablP for building purposes; .and (2) to see that they give sufficient lungs for the children. In this State there is no

·excuse for erecting bnildings on 16-perch .allotments, and provision should be made <for a larger area of land for each house.

Mr. FRY: Is it intended to advance money to people to e•rect their own homes, and subsequently. if they wish to give up their homes, will they revert to the Government?

The AcTING PREMIER : These homes will he· erected by the Government, and the tenants ·can acquire them by purchase on weekly or monthly instalmento. They then become the property of the tenants.

Mr. FREE : They get the freehold? The AcTING PREMIER; Not the freehold·

they get a perpetual lease·. Question put and passed.

UNE::VIPLOYED WORKERS BILL.

INITIATION.

'(llfr. Roberts, East Toowoomba, in the chair.)

Th1· ACTING PREMIER, " That it is desirable

introduced to make unemployed workers,"

in moving­that a Bill be provision for

£aid : I do not know that there is any infor­mation I can give at this stage that would particularly explain the scheme embodied in the Bill. It would be far better to wait till the second re-ading stage, when I can out­line all the prominent features and give hon. members a better idea of what is embodied in the scheme. There are certain novel fe•att[res which will require mature con­sideration on the. part of the House before tiwy adopt the Bill. If there is any par­ticular point hon. members desire informa­tion on just now, I shall endeavour to give it.

Mr. MACARTNEY: It would be a help to hon. members on both sides if we l1ad a little more information as to how the Govern­ment hope to mH;t the very difficult matter that we kno';; the Bill deals with. I am sure hon. members on both sides of the House• will •'ympdhisc with the . genuine unem­ployed, and it would be some help at this shtgo if th;J hon. gentlen1an gave an indica­tion as to what metho-d it is propos"d to adopt to de·al with the question further than the gonm·al indic'1tion he gave ye,terday. As I understood, yeswrday, the hon. gentleman said that an insurance fund would bo pro­vided for to guard against the period of non-employnH:nt vvhiC'h, of course, arises fron1 a variety of causes. But beyond that the hon. gentleman dil not go. He did not sug­gcot whether the Government are going to provide St1te institutions or State farms or anything of that sort, nor did he say whe-ther it was propobed to make use of the unem­ploy:ed in connection with the destruction, say, of prickly-pear. I hope that before the Order of Leave is final and conclusive w0 will obtain such information as will enable the House to say whether the Order of Leave is wide enough or not.

(Sitting su.-pemled jro1n 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.) (Jir. Bcrtram, Jiaree, in the chair.)

The ACTil\G PRE:\IIER: I wish to make a brief reference to the provisions of the Bill which we are seeking leave to introduce.

The Bill provideS; for the establisl.urient of . a. council which Will be vest&d With certam powers and duties. Its chief dutiee will be to inquire into the causes of unemployment and report thereon to the. Governu:w~t, ~nd to dev1.~e nH'ans for redur1ng or eltmtllahng unemployment; and it "ill also have power to io quire into the workin!l' of the hbo':'r <-'xehanges, and to su,.~est 1n1provements In that system. The Bill also provides for the e-tablishment of an insurance fund, against ":hich will be charged th~ sustenance paid to unemployed .workers. . Unemployed workers will be entitle>d to claun assistance on certain grounds set out in the Bill. The Bill also makes provision to enable th-e Goverm11imt to start relief work where unem­plonnent exists in certain districts in differ­ent" parts of the State, for the purpose of reducing unemployment and alleviating dis­tress. That, roughly speaking, is the outline of the Bill. There are a good many details in it, some of which are of rather a novel character, which I ~hall explain more fully on the second reading.

HoK. \V. H. BARNES : Before the ques­tion goes through, I would like to ask the Treasurer if he will inform the Committee as to what method is to be adopted by the Government in connection with the insurance fund.

'I'he ACTING PREMIER : I am afraid I could not do juetic·e to the subject without making rather a detailed speech upon it, because it 'depends upon a number of principles the application of which· requires somfl explana­tion.

HoN. \Y. H. BARNES : The question, I admit, is a fairly big one, but I think the Treasurer ought to furnish some information upon it now. This is a matter which will have an important bearing generally, and I think the Committee are 0ntitled to some explanation.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: It se·ems most extra­ordinary that in a country such as Queens­land it should he necee.oary to make pro­vision for unemployment. One can hardly conceive of the nccecsitr for such lcg-ielation. That unemplovmcnt .c xlsts we are ail a ware, and th~re may be r,•asons for it, hut this is uot the time to diccuss them. If the hon. ;;-entlunan in charg•c of the Bill c<tn solve the difficulty-provide that there .hall 1Je 110

unemployment in the State-then he w~ll unque••tionn~Jly bo a hencLctor, not only 111

Queensland, lmt in the Commonwealth. Mr. COLLIXS: We v·ere told tha: thc·e was

room for 5,000,000 Germans on one occ lSion.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: They would not be unemployed if c'wy 'vere here. A matter '~hat has alwavs struck me in conncc1ion with the unemploy-ment qu< >tion is that we frc­quenth· find that uu~mrlovment is c.1med becaus'o men rofu •c to work "at their different trade• and callings. for some rca:._:,n, but the 'n>rk is waiting for the:n if they will only accept it.

Mr. S:\!ITH: And accept the conditions dictated.

Hox. J. G. APPEL: Bv the Arbitration Court, 1;\ hLh this Chmnb ~r in it'> vdsdo1n made provision for. The gist of the measure vas touched upon b~ the hon. membt"r £or Bulimba-that is, as to where the fund is to come from, and as to the payments to he made to thos<> who are uncmnloy+"i. The hon. gentleman in charge of ·the measure

Hon. J. G. Appel.}

420 Unemployed TV orkers Bill. [ASSEl\1BL Y.] Unemployed Work+ rs Bill.

says that it would be practically impossible for him to deal fully with the whole qmestion at the present stage, but if a littl.e more information was given we should be able to more fully understand the measur<>.

Mr. TA YLOR: I think it is a matter for regret that in a State like Queensland, only partially developed as it is, there should be any nves·ity for such a Bill as this. \Ve should be placed in posse,sion of a little more information with r·egard to the pro­visions of the Bill. For instance, are the principks of the Bill to be applied to men ·who go on strike>? If tllll Ull0IH1Jloyrncnt fund i, to be u'~d fer the benefit. of men who go ou strike, that provision will have no sympathy from me.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Whilst we all deplore unemployment, and will do every­thing we can to avoid it, it is one of those qu(·,tions which has to be faced. I would like to know whether the Treasurer is going to put the r<esponsibility on the shir<e councils or the city councils, or whether the Govern­ment is to be r·esponsible for finding men employment. A man who wants work do<es not want charity-he wants the opportunity to f•arn what is going to be paid to him. Th<e late General Booth-who was perhaps honoured more than any other man in our country-said on one occasion that if a man would not v ork neither "hould he eat, and I believe that is the correct stand to take. If a man will not work himself, someone else ha' to work to keep him. I shall scrutinise the proyisioi1s of this Bill very carefully. \Ve hav<e heavy burdens cast upon the loc.J! authoritic~ bv our Governments to­day. Taking our ,\u&tralian Governments altogE>ther, they are becoming· more intoler­able than in the older countri ,s, where they ha.-e large armies and larye navies to sup­port. The cu t of Go.-ernment is so Yery high--

The CH.\IR:YlAJ'\: Order!

Mr. BEBBI~GTON : I would like to ask the Treasurer if this is going to increase the cost of GoYernment, and put more burdens on the people. A man should earn what he gets, and then there is no charity at ail about it. and unless that principle is included in the Bill I shall be against it.

Mr. ROBER'I'S: Some hon. members are continually telling us that we should wait until w<e get the Bill, but the House is en­titled to some knowl·edge of what is con­tained in it. Some hon. members opposite would probably hawl liked the motion to go as formal. 'l'he Opposition recognise that men are bett<er employed than unemployed, and we will assist in making the measure a workable one, if it will not put all the burdens upon already overtaxed peroons. I support the rcqu'''t of the hon. member for Bulimba for information as to whom the burdr>n of the insurance is to fall upon. I thou ~ht I heard the Treasurer say yester­day, by way of interjection, that <employees w<ere not to be called upon to pay. I would also like a 'definition of "unemploym<·nt" from the Minister.

The CHAIR::'IIAN : Order !

::\.1r. ROBERTS: I woul·d also like some information as to the aged and infirm workers. \Ve might also be informed as to the age at which a man is not to be classed as unemployed under the Bill. I take it th'l.t the measure does not provide for all ages,

fHon. J. G. Appel.

as the Government have already said that m<en at sixty-five years of age must give up certain clabcJGS of work. There is a diffkulty with regard to the employment of infirm and aged persons.

Then there is the question of the women. I take it that it applies to both sexes, and I should like some information with regard ta. the women. The Treasurer is usually cour­teous, and I hope he will be so on this occasion. He says he cannot go fully into· the details of the Bill. :No one expects him to do that at this stage. It is a novel Bill, and, we arc told, it has novel features in it. For that reason the hon. member might give us some information with regard to the Bill.

Mr. VOWLES: I think when the House i& asked to commit itself to the de.cirableness of introducing a me'asure such as this, that we should know exact], on what basis we arc working. There is r!o doubt about it that it is desirable that provision should be made for unemployed persons. But we have other directions in which we make provision fol' the unemployed. We have a fund which can be drawn upon by people who are destitute. I s~ppose that every day in the week appli­cations are made to the Home Department for relief. I am sure that the money which is doled out for relief amounts to a con­siderable sum every year. If we are going to have a form of insurance against unem­ployment I would like to know if it is going to mean a further tax on the taxpa~'er. Are we going to double-bank him? If we are not careful we will be creating a premium on laziness. There are plenty of reasons why it is de<irable that legislation should be created for this purpose; but we know that these things are alway' loafed on. \Ve know there will be plenty of people who \1 ill become professional unemployed. The Minister might tell us how he proposes to levy the money necessary to meet this fund. There was a system in vogue in Germany in which this principle was established. The principle there was divided into thirds. The worker had to find one-third of the money, th~ employer one-third, and the State one­thlrd.

Mr. ROBERTS: The payments were con .. sidered on how he had been employed pre­viously.

Mr. VOWLES: Yes; the worker's card showed it. It was a guarantee against the professional loafer.

The ACTING PRE'lliER : This is an improve­ment on that scheme.

Mr. VOWLES : I can quite understand the hon. gentleman saying it is an improvement, but the hon. gentleman's improYements are alwavs in the one direction-in favour of one secti,'·n of the community. One section of the communitv is alwavs taxed for the benefit of the other.' I would- like to have some further information on this question before I commit mysdf by voting on it. I quite agr•'C that it is desirable. and that it is a good thing that pro.-ision shonld he made in that direc­tion, but I hope the Bill will have all the Rafegunrds necessary to prevent its being Pxploited.

Mr. CORSER: I should like to know from the Treasurer if he is going to make pro­vision to safeguard the State from an inva­sion from other parts of Australia. When it becomes known that insurance against

Unemployed Workers Bill. [27 AuGUST.] ['nunployed Wm·kers Bill. 421

unemployment exist3 in Queensland we will have an addition to the trouble that we have got at the present time.

Mr. KIRWA:-1: If they read your speech they won't come here.

Mr. CORSER: Then I have done some .good that way. If this Bill is passed the unemployed from New South Wales might inundate this State, and be a great burden on the taxpayers here.

Mr. H. J. RYAN: I thought you said you wanted more population here?

Mr. CORSER: One great feature of the Bill will be how to raise the money. How is the " wind " to be raised? The Trea,urer mig·ht let us know the real r<<tson for intro­ducing this Bill. The legislation of this Government has brought about a diabolical state of affairs in Queensland. Unemploy­ment is rife here, and it is due entirely to the Government.

Mr. KIRWAN: Did you hear the hon. mem­ber for Windsor last night quote the great increase in the Savings Bank deposits?

Mr. CORSER: Owing to the legislation of the present Government they have got to bring in an insurance scheme against the perpetual mwmploymrnt that exi,ts here.

The ACTING PREMIER: The hon. member for Albert stated the causes of unemployment were quite different to what you say.

Mr. CORSER: A little time ago, when the Liberal Government was in office, the Labour party complained about the unemployment in the State, although there was very little unemployment at that time. Now we are spending £2,000,000 more per annum than we did then, and we have increased unemploy­ment from month to month. It would be interesting to know what this scheme is going to cost. The Treasurer must have some idea how much it will cost to deal with the unemployment that exists to-day.

Mr. CmTER: How much do you think it will cost?

Mr. CORSER : I am not going to think for the hon. gentleman. (Laughter.) I hope the Treasurer is going to let us know what provision he is going to make against an invasion from the other States. We would lil{;, to know if this is really a Bill to make provision for unemployable workers. That is going to be the trouble. It is the unem­ployable men we are providing for in this Bill.

The AcTING PRE1!IER : There will be plenty ·of unemployed after the next election.

Mr. CORSER: I have no doubt there will be.

Mr. FoLEY: You will be amongst them.

Mr. CORSER: Judging by what' is hap­pening at Townsville I am afraid that our hon. friend will rtot be here again after next election. (Laughter.) I hope the Trea­surer will "xplain the difference between the genuine unemployed and the unemploy­able. It might happen that a station-master might dism·iss a man and he will be thrown on the unemployed market because he has don<;) his duty against the Government. That iq an unemployed man, but there are also men who are unemployable.

Mr. PETRIE (Toombul): Like other hon. members who have spoken. I very much regret the necessity in a State like Queensland

for tilE' introduction of a Bill of this sort. No doubt the unemployed problem is

big one. Until we get some particulars from the 'Treasurer we ccmnot o;ay very much about this Bill. There ar<; a certain class of unemployed who are always unemploy­able. It remindc me of a storv I once heard about a man who was canvaF·,ing for votes for a politic.11 candidate. He called at a. house and saw a lady washing. He asked her if she had a vote, and she Raid she had nnt. He said to her, " If you had a vote, who would you support?" The woman aH'' ered, " I would support the man that I have supported for the last ten years~rny hueband." (Laughter.) That husband is likP a g-ood tna n~v 1~1en to-da:v \'Y·ho are unC'mploynhle. I will have morE' to sa:v about this Bill when it i, introdnc"<L

::\fr. G. P. BARXES (H'anl'ick): It is to be regretted that a measure of this kind has to be introduced at all. The fact is that the Government have already been giving a considd·ab:~ c•mount in relief, and that goes on to a mot:e or less extent voar in and vear out. If by any means a better system than the giving of relief, as WE' understand it, can be organised, it would b<' di,tinctly prefr;rable to the system which prevails. \V e will have to be E'xtremely careful, other­wise we will have a vast number of unem­ployed who are unemployables. This i~ really a national matter, and should b<; dealt with bv the Commonwealth Government. It would "be manifestly unfair to Queensland if we had a mE'asure of this kind in existence, became the other Stat~s having no machinery of a like nature, it will result in the unem­ployed cowing into Queensland from the other States. I would like to know if the State Insurance Department intend taking this matter up. We should also know what is in the mind of the Minister regarding the amount to be made available in connection with the Act. The hon. gentleman must have some amount in his mind, b"cause this is going to run into an immense sum of money. The Committee should get some information as to what the amount of money will be. I am inclined to think, and I have advocated it, that there should be some syst~m of insurance, compulsory and contri­butory. It should commence with the youth when lw first goes to work at, say, fourteen or fifteen years of age, and eventually a fund could be provided for old age or incapacity.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN; Are you advocating the G~rman system ?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: I think that is the German syst€m. At any rate, it would be a complete r<'lief, and ~ave a man from falling back on charity. If a man contributed to a fund all his life and then recoiYed the benefit of that fund when he got old, owing to an organised sy,tem being in existence, he would fP<'l that as he had contributed to it he would be entirely rdiev~d from any feeling that he was receiving a charity. Such a svstem should be general and uni­versal. i:n the meantime, the Tr'"asurer should be good enough to enlighten us on the various matters suggested from this _gde of the House.

The ACTING PREMIER : It is impos­sible to give the information th<;l hon. members are asking for, as it would mean entering upon a full explanation of the scheme. There is so much dependent on the

Hon. E. G. Theodore.]

422 Unempirrged Workers Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in R£ply,

detail that I could not .;xplain even the main features of the Bill without going into detail. There are so many qualifications and reservations provided for that, in order to do justice to the subject, I should have to traver"e the whole of th0. Bill. Hon. member~ will see tl,e impossibility of answer· inv the quc.,tions they ask at this stage" The order of leave is •·o wide that no hon. m('mbcr can complain about being precluded from makin'l' an alteration or an amendment when the Bill come,; before the Hous0. Fur­ther than that, when the Bill gets into the

hands of member, thev will see [7.30 p.m.] the nature of the scheme, and

it will enable them the more e.•·sily to follow my explanation of the policy of the C:overnment in regard to the details of t1w Bill. I think it will be morP satis­factory to wait until we get to that stage. Consequently, I hope hon. members will allow the motion to go through and let the Bill be introduced.

2\h. ~.1ACAHT::'\EY: It is quite true, as the hen. nkmber has said, that the order of le""'' is gew'"al and large, but at the same time tlw hon. member knows that when a Bill hes passed its second reading it is then not po; 'ibl" to move amendments which are S<tid to be oC~bidc the scope of the Bill.

The AC1'IXG PREMIER: You alwavs have the epnortun it,· oi moving a conting~ent motion before going into Committee.

Mr. ::\IACARTNEY: The hon. member knows that the Opposition always find them­sdn>s up against a stonewall at any stage­~ome form of the St11nding Ord<>rs or -decision for the time being. If the !'on. member finds any difficulty in tell­mg the House what the principles of the Bill are, and elaborating to somo extent so that we. can understand the Bill he cer­tainly has the power to negativ~ certain ideas that might be suspeeted of exist­ing in connection with a Bill of this sort. One would expect the hon. member to say that the Bill is going to be on rf•ason­able lines, and that it is not going to take a dangerous shape. I think it would be very easy to suggest a dangerous shape that the Bill could take. It might be a Bill to provide strikP pay, and yet come within the words of the hon. member. I say that a Bill of that nature would be of a hio-hlv <langerons character. As a matter of fac't, rt was stated, when the seamen's strike was comrnenced in the early part of this year in Brisbane. that the men who left work on the "Cooma" said : "\Vhy should thev return to _work'( 'I'hey were getting something equn·alent to a couple of pounds per eek from the State Government."

The AcTING PREMIER : I do not think they said that.

Mr. ::'\fACARTNEY: They were getting relief pay.

'I'hP AcTING l'RE1IIER: No; their families were getting distress relief.

Mr. MACAHTNEY: All I can sa% is that if we introdu<"' that principle to th,; statnto­·book we are doing a very unsafe thing. That is only an illnstration to show that a Bill of this sort may be a Bill that we could not comm~nd. I. think that on general principles both srd<'S w1ll agree that it is a humane and proper thing to provide for the unfortunate ~memploy~d ~o the best of our ability, and 1f the B1ll rs on reasonable lines in that

[Hon. E. G. Theodore.

direction I do not think there "·ould be much,· <lifforence of opinion, but if the Bill is going to be on lines which would permit of political exploitation, then, of course, there wonld' be objections. At the same time, if the hon. member is not prepared to give the Hcn'e furth<er information, I would ask him that when the s<econd rPading do~,, come before the House, and the hon. member has an opportunity of elaboratinll' the details, he will cot if'ast afford to this side of the Honse opp01 i unity to give consideration to the mea,ure in the light of what ho then says. 1

Tht! ACTING PRE1fiER: Yc5, that will be done.

Question put and pa8'Cd. The House resumed. The CHAIR1HN re·­

portcd that the Committee had come to a. res,jlution. which was agrt,:,d to.

FIRST HEADING.

. On the motion of the A9TING PHEMIER, the E1ll was read a first bmc. ·

The second reading was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

ADDRESS IN REPLY.

RESUJiiiPTION OF DEBATE.

:Mr. GRAYSON (Cu:nningham): I desire t9 '"Y a few words before this qu<estion goes through. I have looked over this Govern­ment programme for the session.

Mr. SMITH: This is not your " Swan song," is it? '

Mr. GRAYSON: No: I shall have some, thing to say about tho " Swan song" in a minute. I do not think that there is in this programme a single measure that is likely tc;> encourage primary prodnction. ,

Mr. KIRWAN: You have not read it.

Mr. GRAYSON: I have read it very care: fnlly. But every single item .is splendid electioneering stuff for the present Minis­terial party at the next general election. At least 90 per cont. of these measures havt!l­been discussed and approved by the Trade& Hall, and then transmitted to Parliament. (Government laughter.) We all know that; but, nnfortunatcly, probably 90 per cent. of the electors outside do not know, and it is just as well that someone should enlighten them as to how legislation is hatched iJ;t Qneensland. '

Mr. S~IITH: There must be some very capable men at the Trades Hall.

Mr. GHAYSON: There mav be. 1 am not saying that there are no capable men there; but it i;; elective representatives of the con­stituencies who should formnlate leg-islation and put it before the Honse. MNnhers opposite time after time have stated that they are in favour of encouraging produc­tion. They advise the people of Queensland to cultivate, and I would just like to ask every intelligent man sitting on that side of the House whether there is one item in that programme that is likely to encou'rage primary prodnction.

Mr. COLLINS : Did von not hear the Min'­ister for Agriculture~ introduce a Bill thill afternoon?

Mr. GRAYSON: Yes; bnt we want to know a little more about that. Instead ol encouraging those who have had the pluck

AJdre~s ~n Reply. [27 AUGUST.l Address in Reply. 423

<lnd courage to settle on the land in Queens­land, this Government have taxed the farmers more than they are taxed in any other country. I do not believe that there is a country in the world where the peo:ole are so heavilv taxed as are the freehold farmers of Queensland. I have listenr·d to merctbers on the Ministerial side represent­ing country districts, and I took particul •.r notic~ of thc;:;t~ \Vho represent sugar consti­tuencies--the member fot· Bowon and the member for JYiaekay-and thev know what they ace talking about when· they talk of sugar production. I have never hr:trd those two g-enthmHm make a suth•ment in this Hou· e that they were opposed to the Go­vernmont'•· laLd tax propceals. \Vhat is thP rea son for it?

:ltlr. O'ScLLIVAX: Becaus•• their consti­tuents believe in it.

}1r. GHA YSO);": I am not addrc,Fin6 the hon. memhcr for Kenncdy, because he· doe<> not represent pcimary product.ion. :Members repre•enting sugar district·;- >'.nd I will indudc the Trc:asurer and the hon. member for l'ai,m,·--know that the sugar industry is highly prctected :_,y the Fc·dcral Government.

::\Ir. S:IHTH : Do you believ<; in the high protection of tlw sugar indu,try?

Mr. GRA YSON : I believe in the high protection of every primar:y industr,·. What does it matter to the sugar-gro,vers of Queensland what heavy taxeB the State Go­vernment put on them, ,,o long as they are well protected?

Mr. S~IITH: You believe in high protec­tion for all industries.

Mr. GHAYSON: Decidedly. I believe in high protection for all industries. But how do the mixed farmers compare with the men in the sugar industries? Is the wheat farmer protected? I\o. He has to compete in the markets of the world.

Mr. PETERSJ)N: Would you believe in prices being fixed for that product?

Mr. GRAYSO-:\': Decidedly. I would believe in the price being fixed for it.

Mr. KIRWAN: You are drifting. Mr. BEBBINGTON : He is not drifting; he

wants a living wage for the farmer.

::Ylr. GHA YSO);" : Y cs, a living wage for the farmer. Is the maize-grower protected? The only protection he hae is a paltry 10~d. per bushel. I contend that that is far too low.

Mr. O'STILLIYAN: Do you believe in the whe{lt pool?

Mr. GRA YSON: Talk about something you know so:nething abcut. I do not object to ;;cnsiblr interjection'' from anybody who knows the question he is referring to. The maize-growers have to compete with black labour in the islands.

:Mr. PETER~0:-1: Is not that an argument in favour of the primary producers forming a union to get their rights?

Mr. GHA YSO::-J: Decidedly it is. We all know that the dairymen have to compete with the markets of the world for all their surplus products; they have to compete with Denmark, the Argentine, Siberia, and other countries that produce butter.

Mr. KIRWAN: Are they making any butter in Siberia now?

Mr. GRA YSON: I am going to write to Mr. Lenin and inquire on behalf of the hon. member. (Laughter.) The wheat-growers, maize-growers, and dairymen of Queensland have to pay heavy taxation on their free­holds.

Mr. COLLINS: Do the farmers in your elec­torate oppocSe a land tax?

1Ir. GHA YSO::-J: I should say fully 50 pL'l' cent. oi the farmers in my electorate oppoce the land tax.

Mr. KIRWA:-1: Tht are very rich farmer~ thcre.

:\Ir. UH.\YSON: The hon .. nwmber kn.ows t:w nosition of the farmers m the Cunnmg­ham· electorate. He know.J the farmers on the Darling Down··· could not live on small areas of 10 or 20 acres like they can down here. I would jnst like to show how those enrrao·od in mixed farming in Queensland ar~' taxed as compared with tho taxes paid in the other States. In Queem land the tax is 14d. in the £1 on £2,000; 3d. in the ol;ll on £2 500 · 4d. in the £1 on £3,000; 4N. m tltc £'1 o{1 £4,000; and 6d. in the £1 on. £7.500 and over. I would point out here that on:y 5~ per cent. of the land in Queens­land ha' been alienated, and yet we are th1c heaviest taxed State in the whole of the Commonwealth. In Queensland we have a £300 exemption in connection with the land tax. In Victoria they have an exemption of £250 and the tax there is on1y ~d. in the £1 on the unimproved value.

Mr. KIRwAN: .And land settlement is !l\

failure.

Mr. GRAYSON: Seventy per cent. of the land in Victoria has been alienated.

Mr. KIRWAN : I am talking about closE< settlement, not alienation.

Mr G RA YSON: In N GW South Wales the exemption is £240 and the tax is 1d. in the £1 on the unimproved value. Does the hon. member for Brisbane say that land settlement in New South Wales is a failure?

Mr. KIRWAN: I say land se·ttlement in Xew South Wales has gone ahead to a <>'reater extent under a Labour Government than at any other time.

Mr. GHA YSON: I am very glad the hon. member has mentione·d that. The New South \¥ales Labour Government were in power for six y<•ars, and dl!ring th? >yhole of that. time thev did not raise the 11101dence of the land tax·· it still remained at 1d. in the £L In New South Wales no land tax is collected where the leYy by the shire council for genc·ral rates is not less than 1d. in the £1. In South Aqstralia the exemption is £5,000 on the improved value. \Vhat is the reason for that? South Australia is one of thc3 largest wheat-producing States in the Com­moinw:alth, and the Governments of Sout):l Australia have always e-ncouraged the culti­vation of ,,·heat. In South Australia a few Years ago the average yield of wheat was 8.3 bushels per acre, and during the last ten years that average has been irtcrease·d up to 14 or 16 bushels per acre. The reason for that is that the South Australian Government procured suitable phosphates for the farmers at very low rate·s. The farmers used those manures very extensively, with the result that the yield per acre has been very. greatly increased, and, instead of burdemng the-

. Mr. Grayson.]

(\SSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

farmers with a land tax like the Queens­land Government has done, they give an <lXemption of £5,000. For six years there was a Labour Governme·nt in South Australia.

Mr. C\RTER: At different periods.

11r. GRAYSON: No, following one another. Notwithstanding that a Labour Government werl in power, the exemption in connec~ion with the land tax was not Io,vered.

::\fr. CoLLI~S: No wonder the·y went out.

i\lr. GRAYSO~: It was not the farmers who put them out.

Mr. CoLLI~S: Is it not a fact that 46 per cent. of the population of South Australia is -;itu.otod in Adelaide?

:\Ir. GRAYSO:'\: I will ha;o a word to sav on that later on. I would like to ask the Treasurer to compare the taxation proposals in QueGnsland with those· in operation in the <)ther States. Th0 pruent taxes in Queens­land are unbearab1e, and the Government are 'queczing out of our primary producers every penny t'oat they possibly can.

::\1r. COLLINS : 'l.'hat is not true.

Mr. GRA YSON: I say it is truP, and I have had an opportunity of proving it. I represent one of the greatest farming con­stituencies in Queensland. and a constitu­t ·ncy where 90 per cent. of the land is free­hold. No district has contributed more towards the ,uccess of ag-riculture in Queens­land than the Darling Downs, notwithstand­ing the remarlo of the hon. member for Rosewood a few nights ago, who made the .;tatement tl1at the Darling Downs farmers had been spoon fed.

Mr. CARTER : Quite correct.

Mr. GRAYSON: I challenge the hon. member for Port Cm·tis to prove his state­ment. How long has the hon. member for Port Cw·tis bee·n a resident of Queensland? _ Mr. CARTER : Something like thirty years. Longer than you have.

Mr. GRA YS'OX: How long hail the hon. member for Rosewoocl been a resident of Queensland? The hon. member for Rosewood has be-en a resident of Queensland for ten years, and yet he had the audacity to rise in his place and state that the Darling Downs farmers had been spoon fed. The Darling Downs farmers have never received any­thing from this Gove·rnment, nor from any other GovernmeNt that they have not paid for. and I am quite certain that the electors of Rosewood will not thank their member for making the statnment which he did. The Treasurer, in introducing his land tax pro­posals, stated that it was scientific taxation. All I ean sa;v is, "Then God protect u, from ~cientific methods of taxation."

::1-fr. CoLLINS : You are a special plead er for the ''Courier." The land tax hit them up, you know.

Mr. GRAYSON: I have some knowledge as to how the land tax has affected the primary producer. I have also a knowledge as to how it affects the city landholder; and I know it falls much heavier on the primary producer than it does on the city landholder. For this reason, if the land tax is increased the city man can say to his tenant "Your eent is increased so much on accou~t of the

[Mr. Gra.yson ..

in en ased land tax." The farmer has no opportunity of passing the tax on. He has to take the m:uket Yalue for his produce.

Mr. CARTER: Does it not cheapen land! 11r. KIRWA:-1 : I heard the hon. member for

'\Y arwick say last session that it did.

Mr. GRAYSON: I heard the Minister for Education, when the matter was before the House. state that the ta:x; would be a means of cheapening land in Queensland. I say that it has been the means of reducing the values of freehold land, especially in farm­ing districts, from 40 to 50 per cent.

l\Tr. CARTER: Hear, hear! Mr. GR"\ YSO='J: But there are no buyers

for it. Who is at the loss but the farmer? Mr. CARTEH: T.he land speculator. The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­

ber must not deal with the interjection; of the hon. member for Port Curtis.

Mr. GRAYSON: It is the man who made the value of the land who should get the benefit of it. I know anJ number. of farmers who selected land on the Darl111g Downs fifty or sixty years ago, and since t.he land tax has been imposed they have Wished to retire and disposf\ of their freeholds. They have placed them in the hands of agents, but have not been able to find a buyer.

Mr. CoLLIKS: People must have been read­ing your speech.

Mr. GRAYSO::-J: There is no encourage­ment for people to go on the land. Just think of a man who has a freehold on the Darling Downs, or in the Moreton distric_t, being compelled to pay a land tax of 3d. m the £1. I heard the hon. member for Bowen, two or three sessions ago, make a speech, and when he makes a speech on farming he has always got in his mind's eye the growing of sugar-cane. The hon. member stated that the farmers on the Dar.ling Downs were holding large areas of land, .and that their holdings should be reduced to 40 or 50 acres. Fancy a man starting to grow wheat on 40 or 50 acres, with the idea of making it &

paying proposition? Mr. COLLINS : quote proof of your state­

ment. I never said any such thing in my life.

Mr. GRAYSON: I believe. that 90 per cont. of the wheat produced 111 Queensland is grown on the Darling Downs. We heard the hon. member for Rosewood stating on one occasion that the Darling Downs was not suitable for wheat production, but I have been a resident qf the Darling Downs for more than half a century, and during that time wheat has been succes<S.fully grown there. During several seasons we produced 2.000,000 bushels of wheat in Queensland, and 90 per cent. of that was g~own on the Darling Downs. It was only 1n the Roma district that a little wheat was produced outside of the Darling Downs. If the Trea­surer persists in imposing the super tax on the unimproved value of l~nd over £2,500 on farmers ;vho are producmg ce;·eal crops, cultivation will not be increased 111 Queens­land. I would suggest that those farmers who go in for cereal production as well as dairying, and have 20 per C·c,nt. of the land under cultivation, should be exempt from the super tax.

Mr. KIRWAN: You will find that produc­tion is increased under this Government.

Address in Reply, [27 AUGUST,] Addnsc in Reply. 425

Mr. G RA YSON: You will find that 90 per cent. of the wheat produced in Queens­land is grown on freehold land. Is it not extremely regrettable, on looking over the returns of land selection for the past three years, to find that so few selections have been taken up under agricultural conditions?

'l'he AcTING PRE)HER: Due to the war. Mr. GRA YSO='i: How many of the

returned soldiers are taking up land under agricultural conditions?

A GOVERNMENT ME1IBER: Thousands.

Mr. GRAYSON: 'l'he most unfortunate thing is, that land is not being t.aken up by fariY!Cl'B .sons, w·ho are 0xperts In tho a""Ti­·cultural industry. A great number of them are co:n;ing to Brisbane, and sneking employ­ment m the Pohce Force, the Railway Department, and other avenues. They are splclHlid young men, but thev hear their fathPrs compla!n so bitterly of the treatment they have rece1ved from the present Govern­m<mt, in regard to a land tax and other thing.<.. that they .are packing up their bclongmgs and commg to Brisbane.

The ;'\~TING PREMIER : Coming down here c.nd JOllllllg the service of this Government. (Laughter.)

Mr. GRAYSON: There has been less ugri­C)-Jltural settlement in Queensland during the tuno the present Government have been in o.ffice than there _has been during a simila1· time at any prc_vwus period of our history. I am .not blammg the Minister for Lands f~r th1_;; lack of incr~ase in the taking up o.f agncu!tural selectiOns, but at the ;ame t1me I thmk some system should be adopted to encourage young men to select land with the yiew o! inc~e~sing our agricultural pro­ductiOn. No Mm1ster for Lands in Queens­land ever did more to encourage people to settle upon the land than the late Hon. J. T. Bell, who used to go out into the country and help men to -inspect and select land.

Mr. KIRWAN: Did he inspect the Jimbour Estate?

J'4r. GRAYSON: I may tell you that durmli the t1me he wa~ Minister for· Lands he. was supported by the Labour party.

An HONOURABLE MEMBER: Did they sit behind him?

. Mr. GRAYSON: Yes, the Labour party at that time sat behind the Hon. Mr. Bell. The amount paid in taxation in Queensland, compared with the amount paid in the other State~, i, interesting, as will be seen from the figures I am now about to quote. The land tax collected in Queensland last year amounted to £578,272. NPw South Wales collected £2,800, Victoria £324,232, and Tas­mania £86,704. The figures for South Aus­tralia are not given separately. It will be observed from the amounts above mentioned that Queensland levies £170,000 more land tax than Victoria, New South \Yalm and Tasmania combined. 'With reference to in­come tax, Queensland collected £1,677,334, N r·w South Wales £2,462,738. Victoria £928,210. and Tasmania £261,028. From these figures it will be seen that the land taxation ·in Queemland is taxation with a vengeance. The land and income taxes together amounted, in Queensland, to £2,255,586, New South Wales £;2,455,538, Victoria £1,252,442, South Australia, £696,628, and 'l'asmania £347,732. Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania together have a _population of 2,065,626, and together they

pay in land and income taxes a sum of £2,296,802. Queensland has a population of 694.946, and pays in land and income taxes £2,255,5Go. New South Wales has a popu­lation of 1,821,117, and pays in land and income taxes an amount of £2,455,538. I hold that the income tax is a much fairer form of taxation than any other mode of imposing taxc:-1, and I have never been opposed to the income tax, but I contend that our la.nd tax is a p,-,vere imposition upon the farmers. Coming now to the ques­tioa o~· seed wlwat supplied to farmer<, I have in my hand a copy of the form which farmer' who dc>sirPd to pnrrhas,·• seed wheat were required to fill up before their orders were cs:erntecl. 1 rnu~t say that it is hardly hir to a,k farmers who decire to purchase quantities of wheat for seed pm·posf's to divulge all tlw particulars required in this return. The farmers ha.-e to pay for the wheat, and they ftrc paying for it, and yet the Government charge them 6 per cent. on the ~mount of thc,ir purchases. The money is due on tlw 31st .J anuarv. As I have pointed out on seYl'ral occasions. to the :Minister for Agriculture and the L nder Secretary for Agrirulture, the 31st January is far too near a date, because if a, man has a good crop of wheat it will be impossible for him to harvest that wheat. thresh it and dispose of it by the 31st January. I am not going to plead for any particular class in the State. except to say that the incidence of taxation should not be raised any further, especially upon the primary producer. I am surprised at the Government not allowing the returned soldiers to have preference over grazing areas. \Vho is more entitled to preference than those young men who went to fight for their country?

At twenty-five minutes past 8 o'clock p.m., The CHAIRMAN OF CmvnnTTEES (Mr.

.Bertram) took the chair as Deputy Speaker.

Mr. GRAYSON: Can the Secretary for Lands, or the Under Secretary, produce a better typ<: of man than those young soldiers who left the Central and Western districts to go to the front and fight for their coun­try! I know the type of young fellow who went away. Some of them had been over­seers, som(l stockmen, shearers, rouseabouts -all a fine hardy type of young man .

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : How much money did they make during ~he time they were rouseabouts? Do you thmk they saved sufficient money to finance them on a grazing ar~a?

Mr. GRAYSO='f: If the Government would allow them to take up a grazing area they rou!.d get £650, from the Repatriation Fund. That amount would give them a start on a grazing farm.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : How many times £600 would it take to fence a 10.L1)0-acre block?

Mr. GRA YSON: I started grazing with £50 in my pocket. (Hear, hear ! and laugh­ter.) I started shearing at a station on the Darling Downs, and after the shearing was over I informed the squatter that I was going to take up 640 acres. " Look here, my lad," he said, " I will let you have 20() she~p if you give me half the wool and half the increase."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: We will give them four times that area on those terms.

Mr. Grayson.]

426 Addre.gs in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Addrr88 in Reply.

Mr. GRAYSO~: If those soldiers were allowed to form groups and the Government would giv(J each of them, say, 5.000 acres, and let them put a ring fence round it, if each of them got £650 from the Repatria­tion Fund, they would have ample means to fence it and stock it. They would not require to sit down and mind the sheep, but could do sh~aring and other work :end make sufficient money to subdivide the area. I am· satisfied it would be a succe.,c.

The SECRETARY FOR P<:BLIO LANDS : Are you aware that the Repatriation Department do(·S not give them anything at all? Remove thQ idea from your mind. It i' the State Government v;ho are advancing that money.

An OJ'POSITIO]i' l\ln!BER: You get it from the Commonwealth.

The SECRETARY FOR P<:BLIC LANDS : It does not matter whether we get it from the Com­monwealth or not; we are responsible.

)1r. GRAYSON: I app'lal to the Govern­ment to bive more consideration and bett0r treatment to th<· returned soldiers by offering them induc~ments to 'ettle upon the land. Then; are millions of acres going to waste by reason of the prickly-pear yearly. There .an>. millions of acres "hich are thinly in­fested, and if the Government would get some of the returned soldi~rs, or anyone else, to take it up and give it to them free of rent for twenty years, provided they cleared the prickly-pear, the land would soon bP dea.r.

Mr. BEBBINGTON : Give it to them for life.

Mr. GRAYSON: I have no sympathy for the pastoral lessee who has allowed his land to go to rack and ruin with the prickly-pear. I say it is criminal on the part of many lessees. The Gov.,rnment ought to give tn'ore humane• treatment to the returned soldier who wishe• to settle upon the Crown 1and6 of the State.

The ACTING PREMIER : Do you suggest it would be humane treatment to put them on prickly-pear areas?

Mr. GRA YSON : I say those which are thinly infested. There is plenty of beautiful grazing land thinly infested, and it would cost Y~ry little to clear any pear that is growing there at the present time. I would give it to them free of rent for twenty years.

The AcTING PREMIER: You want to give them something which no one else will take up.

Mr. GRA YSON : I do not think for a moment that the soldiers should be pushed on to the prickly-pear land. I say, give them the very best you have in Que!)nsland. The returned soldier should not be put on

prickly-pear land. I made that [8.30 p.m.] statement to the House before.

I say we ought to be proud of the men who fought for their country and did so well. Every m·an who was not able to go to the front himself should be proud of the achievements of those who went there, and for that reason, when we are putting them on the land, we should give them the best land available,

* Mr. FORDE (Rockhamz;ton), who was received with Government " Hear, hears!" said: It has been said to-night that the hon. member for Cunningham has been singing

[Mr. Gr~son.

his "Swan song." I am not aware whethe1 that is true or not. Probably the hon. mem­ber intends to retire from politics at the end of the pre<Bnt Parliament. HoweYer, if the hon. gentleman should leave us, he could do so with a feeling that he has left no personal enemies in this Chamber-(Hea.r, hear!)­a:though the majority of us may be strongly onpnsed to him on political que~tion,•. (Uear, h···ar !) Probably the hon. membe~ recognises t.hat his political ship is irretriev­ably lost, end he> therefore wich~, to forsake it before it completely founde·rs.

::l.Ir. GRAYSO;<i: Nothing like that.

::Ylr. F'ORDE: At the out,et I wi-.h to con­gratulate the mover and 'econdcr of tlw AddrHs in R·ply. They made very practical spec'Ches, ar:d no doubt thev will in the future be rog··dar contributorc.' to the debate~ in this Chamber.

Like many of the previous speakers, 1 have to extend my deepr·~.t sympathy to the, bcrPc:\ ,:d mlativos of the unfortunate victims of the ., Lkwollyn '' disaster. I knew nearly all those men who were drowned. As a matter of fact, Captain Holloway and others were personal friends of mine. I may say that I was very disgusted at the contemptible utter· anees of wmc members of the Opposition who end ea vourcd to blame the Government or someone else for the loss of the " Llewellyn." If those members had had the opportunity of calling on the bereaved relatives as I hadl and of witnc··sing the groat mental strain and anguioh through which they were passing, they would hesitate before making any utter­ances calculated to aggravate the grief of the unfortunate re·latives. I think this is a time when everyone should endeavour to allay the grief of those unfortunate people instead of aggravating it. Now, I feel sure that the Government will deal generously with the relatives of those men who were· lost. As a matter of fact, every sugge<ltion put before the Hon. the Treasurer by the hon. member for Fitzroy, the hon. member for Keppel, and by myself were sympatheti· callv and favourablv considered. Therefore, I h'a ve no doubt that the relatives of the victims of that disaster will be treated well by the Govfl!l"nment. And so they should be.

It is very, gratifying to all of us to know that peace has come, and it is my sincere wish that the war drums will throb no more and that the peoples of the world will enjoy lasting peace and happiness. Now, I recog­nise the grea.t responsibility that rests upon the Governments of Australia-upon the State Governm€nts as well as upon the Corn· monwealth Government. But I firmly bt>­lieve that Queensland will stand up to that responsibility, and will do all that can rcasonablr be expected for the soldiers on their r-eturn from the front. (Hear, hear!) I feel sure that the Queensland Government will maintain its enviable reputation of having done more for the returned soldiers than anv other Government in Australia. It must be very gratifying to the ret1_1rn.ed soldien. as well as to the great maJority of the people of this State, to know that the Government intends to legislate with a view to dealing with the remorseless profiteer. I find that, with one .excep­tion, hon. members on the other s1de of the House say t·hat there are no profiteers, that we are only imagining the existence of such people. The hon. member for 9xley was frank and I understand he admitted that there' were profiteers in our midst. If I am

Addre88 in R, ply. [27 Aeu:sT.] Address in Reply. 427

not mistaken, that hon. member said that he would a"ist us in dealing with them. The 1'\ationalist party in 1'\ew South Wales recog­nise that thcr.e are profiteers. Mr. Holman stated that he intended to deal with them and tho Hon. Prime Minister of Australia' said he intended to shoot them.

Mr. KIRWA:-<: The undertakero will do well.

:Mr. FORDE: Thr Federal Interstate Com­mission, in its progress report, stated that certain manufacturers had taken advantage of the abnormal conditions for the purpose of increasing their profits. Th,cy reported that the necessity for compr·ehen,ive Government control in timp; o£ ?mergcncy was ,;trongly demonstrated. Pres:dent vVoodrow \Vilson recently asked the Federal 'I'radc Commis­sion of th., Fnitcd States of America to ascertain. whether there were any profiteering !nonopoh.es, trusts, and ~ombincs operating 1n Amcnca, and he rece:ved an affirmative reply from that Commiesion. Mr. Lloyd Gcorge admits there are profiteers in Eng­land, and he has had passed through the House of Commons a Bill which will give tnc Government power to inflict penalties up to :£200 on unscrupulous profiteers. In fact it will have power under that Bill to send profiteers to prison for six months. That legislation was passed in England bv an anti-Labour Government-by a Tory Govern­ment. \V e have profiteers in Queensland. I feel sure that this Government with the assistance of the Commonwealth Labour Government that will hold the reins of office in the Commonwealth arena after the next election, will deal eff·ectivelv with the pro­fiteers who are filching fron1 the people of Queensland and the people of Australia extortionate prices for the necessaries of life to-day. I find there are many companies in Queensland and throughout Australia that have made exorbitant profits during the last few years. One of these companies is the Q::ef!nsland National Pastoral Company, L:m:t<•d, a company that has always con­demned the Labour Government, and never­theless during the regime of the' present Government increased its profits. In 1915 it made a profit of :£60,000, and in 1918 a profit of :£102,000. Therefore, it can be seen that that company made a much larger profit after the three years of Labour administration than it made in 1915. Finney Isles and Co. made a profit of .£20,000 in 1914. and a profit of .£32.000 in the year ending January, 1919. I find that another well-known Brisbane firm-E. Rich and 0om­pan:-·-ma.de a profit of .£9,000 in 1914, and in 1918 it made a profit of £27,000, as well a• having tmnsferred to reserve account £20,000. I find, too, according to the Interstate Commission's report, that the total capital employed by twenty-two woollen mills in _\ustralia in 1914 was £1,144,000, and in three years the net profits were £1,197,000, or more than the cap:tal of 1914. I could go on quoting figures of this kind to show you the abnormal profits which have been made by profiteering companies in Queensland during the last few years, but I have enumerated sufficient to prove my argu­ment. It is a well-known fact that manu­facttll'ing companie' have made infinitelv !l'reat<'l' profits ~ince the Labour Government came into power, but we have not had the power of controlling such profits. Under the War Precautions Act the Federal Government took that power from us; therefore we have

been r<:'ndered powerless. The Commonwealth Government did practically nothing to control t,hcse profiteers: I r·emm.nber travelling to ~ydney wr:w bme ago w:th the representa­tive of a .b1g manufacturing company, who­not knowmrs who I was-told me that he dicl not care a snap of his fingers for the price fixation board established by the Common­wealth Government. He said, "We corner the market in the lines in which we deal· we eharge n hatcver we like, and we get ~hat· ever \VC want." :::'\'o doubt, he was u. rnan ;;peaking with authority for his firm and his uttt._)rances were sirnila·r to utteranc'es which conld . be made by ~he majority of manu­factunng cJmpanics In Australia.

I fmd that industrial unr<,,t is a natural corollary of high pric'2S; the poor man with a large faLiily iinds he cannot make ends meet and l•ec.l11IL'> clie mtisficd with his lot and tho r<:'mlt j., strife. Indu,trial unrest is' not con­lined b Queemland, or even to Australia. It Pxh•nds t·J Englund, where I observe from the ne,y··p:·:p<·rs there arc 260,000 workers on st.nko. . Mr. Llo:-·d George admits that tht' lu~h pr1c,•, a.rc the cause of a O'reat deal 6£ induP.triai unre't. "

Mr. PETERSON : It is the same in America,

Mr. FORDE: It is the same in America. as my friend interjects. Arbitration in it« pres<;nt form is rendered useless by the avar:ce of the remorseless profiteer. Our :\et will have to be amended, and amended m 'Uch a way that the court, or some such body, will be able to fix both the rate of W<lges and the cost of commodities. I find. on ,looking up some figures, that since 1911 wh:lst the worker's wage has increased on the average 26.8 per cent. in Australia the cost of living has gone up 51.4 per 'cent. Thus the cost of living has increased twofold during the last eight years. A "nirit of industrial unrest must come if such a· state of affairs is allowed to continue. From what we read it is quite evident that everv one in England recognises that something must be done. for th!' . workers. Everyone, from the Pnme Mm:ster downwards iR t::mbling over himself to give some co~ces· s:on to the masses in order to avoid a revo­lution. Mr. Lloyd George realisE\\\ that the workers of Great Britain are o"ganised to­day more effectively than ever befort', and that their requests cannot be overlooked: Mr. Lloyd Ge01·ge is faced with the fact that 260,000 men are on strike in En"'land-that is over four times the number of o,";r Queensland unionist' are on strike in Great Britain to­day. We are told that this is the only State in which strikes occur, and this Government is bla'n1cd for every strilm that occurs here. But I find that in 1918 under a Torv Government in New South 'V~les, there wer'(' fifty-four more industrial disputes than occurred in Queensland during the sam(· year.

Mr. KIRWAN: Then there was the big strike, too.

Mr. FORDE: I find that Mr. J. D. Rocke-· feller, speaking recently in America at the annual meeting of the directors of the Standard Oil Corporation said-·-

" The day has passed when a concep­tion of indnstry, as primurilv a matter· of pnvate interest, can bP maintained. To clin;r to it is only to lay up trouble for th(: future, and to arouse antagon­ism.''

¥"''. Forde.]

428 .1 rldress in Rrply. [ASSE:\fBLY.] L1ddress ·in Reply.

Now, :Mr. B.ockefeller is a shrewd man. He breathes the spirit of the times. He can see "the writing on the wall," and he has no desire to run his head against an im­penetrable obstacle. In the words of the poet Markham-

" All that we glory in was once a dream·

ThP world:will marches onward, gleam by gleam,

New voices speak-dead paths begin to stir.

Man is emerging from a sepulchre : Let no man dare to write on time's

great way, 'No thoroughfare.'"

I strongly support nationalisation as a means of ayoiding a great many of the industrial disputes which occur to-day' as tbe :result of profiteering. I strongly believe that nationalisation is a good thing. No one can gainsay the fact that it has b"~n a great success in Queensland. Apart from the direct benefit to the workers and the people generally in the way of cheap meat, cheap insurance, and other concc•·sions, the State enterprises have been a finanCial success; even on the financial side, most carefully observed by hon. members oppo­site, the accumulated profits on State .enterprises in Queensland amount to £184,000. \Vi!! hon. members sav that we ~hould not go on with our State enterprises? Will they say to the people of Queensland that the iron and steel works will not be for the ),enefit of the people of this State? I am most intereste·d in those iron and steel works. So also are the maiority of hon. members in this Chamber. The hon. mem­ber for Bowen thinks they should be at BowPn. I understand the hon. member for Townsville thinks they should be at Towns­ville, and I know quite well that the hon. member for rort CurLis thinks that they should be at Gladstone. Now, I think that they should be established at Broadmount­'(hear, hear! and laughter)-and I hope that they will be established there. I am' satisfied that we urgently require iron and eteel works in Queensland. Taking the y.,mr 1915, I find that the value of imports to Australia involving iron and steel amounted to no less a sum than .£14,000,000. Into Queensland alone we imported goa.ds comprising iron and steel tq t~e valu? of .£2,286,000. Our imports of pig Iron, rails, Wire, galvanised iron. and tin­plate to Australia for the year 1913 amounted to £8,000,000. Surely 'this Government's !lmbition t'? k~ep all that money circulating m Australia IS a laudable one ! The Go­vernment has started several State enter­prises, and I am pleased to know that in the aggregate they have been a ,ucc·ess. We have, as I haYe said, an accumulated profit of about £184,000, but if any individual State enterprise shows a loss hon. members ·On that side get up and say that State enter­prise is gr·n<·rally a failure. But we know th!'t in many cases private enterprises are failure•. I was going up the street only to­day, and saw a big notice. "Liquidation .·mlr: "-:-a (•r-r.tain eo1npany had gone "broke." It IS tmposstble to avoid small losses in the initial stage•. We should not be frightened -of small rcvprses. Take as an pxample the Commonwealth Bank. I find that it was eshb­lished b:v a Labour GovernmGnt. and for 1he first half-year there was a loss, but since then there has b<:'en great progress. The leaders in the Federal Parliament on the Tory

[Mr. Forde.

side in thosE' days vehemently condemned the Labour party for introducing the Act. They said the time was inopportune. They pre­dicted diFaster. But the Commonwealth Bank during the war has been the sheet­anchor of Australia; it ha·, been a great buon to this country, and it will stand to the lasting credit of 'the then Comma.nwealth Labour GovcrnmPnt that they placed upon the Federal statute-book the Act which constituted it.

I find that the Commonwf.•alth Bank made a profit of £458,000 for the six months ended 31st December of last year, and the ac,cu­mulated profits on the fiye y·ears' workmg amount to £1,534.295. It has served a great b0nefit to Australia. It shows that banking should be a Government monopoly. I believe that we should have nationalisation of bank· ing and nationalisation of insurance. Such a reform would be of groat national bene­fit to Australia. \Ve have had experi­ence of tbe nationalisation of insurance, which has proved a great boon to Queens­land, and so also would complete nationalisa­tion of banking be a great boon to Australia. I also find, when I look to some of the other States, that many of the State enterprises initiated by Labour Governments are a great success. I find that the New South Wales brickyards-established by a Labour Govern­ment-sell bricks at £2 2s. per 1.000, while private yards charge £2 13s., and in Victa.ria private concerns charge .£2 Ss. I fmd that America to a great extent during the war went in for the nationalisation of public utilihes, and, by taking ovf'r the rail­way·'· saved that great republic £19,600,000. The telegraph systems, the post offices and telephones were also placed under Stat-e control, and resulted in a saving of half­a-million pounds to the United States of Arnedca. Dud11g the 'var the banks oi Queensland, and of Australia, have made abnormal profits, showing that the legislation passed by the Queensland Government has not fettored private commercial concerns, and, further, showing that banks like the Queens­land ~ational increased their deposits from .£6,500,000 in 1914 to over £9,000,000 in 1918. We have the example of what a great success the Commonwealth Bank has been, and it would, therefore, be a boon to Australia if banking were a national monopoly. We are told by our opponents that State enterprises cost considerably more to run than do private concerns. Such a con­tention is not borne out by fact; is not borne out by a comparison of the insurance busi­nessps of Australia to-day. The hon. member for Oxley is very quiet when I am referring to the cost of running business concerns, because, judging from reports, he is not a great success at it himself. The managerial expenses of the State Insurance Department of Queensland, for the second vear of its operations, were 10 per cent. of the gross profits, while practically all private insurance companies cost from 10 per cent. to 73 per ~nt. for administration.

Yir. SrzEn : The State has a monopoly.

Mr. FORDE: That is not so. " Empty vessels make the greatest sound," and we often hear the hon. member for :\undah. (Government laughter.) Accord­ing to the nf'wspapers, the Advisory Coun· cil of the Ministry of Reconstruction :n England advocates that the nationalisation

Address in Rr ply. [27 Auc.n:t>T.] Arldnss iu Reply. 429

of electric power, strictly on a commercial basis, will enable power to be supplied at a much reduced price. The same Council is of opinion that the nation is losing £100,000,000 yearly through failure to take full advantage of electric progress.

I am pleased to be able to say that during the last fortmght I ha,d the pleasure of accom­panying the Minister for Mines and the hon. member for Normanby on a trip to the Styx Rn··er, and there is every indication that the qovernment will, before long, have estab­h"hcd at that place a State coalmine which will be able to supply the rail­ways of Central Queensland with the vcrv best coal. We have also in the North the Bowen coalmine of which my friend the hon. member for Bowen. is justly proud and it is intended to establish an up-to-dat~ by­products plant in connection with our State coalmines. That will serve a very useful purpose, and will, undoubtedly, prove of great worth to Queensland. The follow­ing are some of the by-pr<:ducts which can be conserved by the use of a bv-products plant in Queensland :-To every "ton of coal 8 gallons of tar, 28 lb. of sulphate of ammonia 2 gallons. of benzine, and hundreds of othe; by-products. I hav,e here a map [exhibiting same] called a ''by-products t~ee," which shows all the coal products that could be obtain~d if. we had a by-products plant in operatiOn m Queensland. At the present t1me the by-products that are saved in Aus­tralia are represented by one limb of the tree, and the remainder go to waste. That is a distinct Ios~ to the country. (Hear, hear!) I should hke to draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that before the war we were losing 14s. 3d. on every ton of coke made-that is, a sum equal to the value of the coke wa'' beine- lost because we did not utilise the bv-pmducts. So valu­able ·are thfse considered in America that in one of the States they make coke and throw it r:way, utilising only the by-products. Legis­latiOn recnntlv has been introduced in America prohibiting companies from making coke unless they save the by-products. The Queensland Government intend to save these by-pro_ducts by. esta?lishing a by-products plant m connection w1th our State coalmines. The State, by having its own coalmines will eliminate the middleman. I find th~t in England £60,000,000 per annum is added to the cost of coal on account of its having to go through the middleman. ·we also have another coalmine at Baralaba on the Dawson V alley, in the electorat"' so ~bly represented by the hon. member for Kormanby.

I am pleased to sav that the Government is going to develop further the arsenic mine at .Jibbenbar, via- Stanthorpe. A few davs ago I listened to speeches from hon. m em bei·s opposito to the effect that we should adopt tiome effective scheme to eradicate pricklv­pear in Queensland. It must therefore be pleasant to hon. members opposite to know that the Government intend to proceed with the arsPnic works at Jibbenbar. At present ~bout 450 tons of ar·'<mic a re used every year m QuE·ensland. The quantity of white arsenic !"cd in t!1is State in connection with dips I.s. app1·oxmnte!y, 200 tons a ~-ear, thus show­mg that a considerable quantity of arsenic is used in Queensland. The pri-ce of arsenic is now £70 a ton, and the State estimate' that it will be able to produce arsenic at ~ con­~iderabl:y lr-•" nrice than t~e farmers are pay­mg for 1t at the present t1me. An impartial

observer cannot say that this Government is not making a determined effort to make this State self-supporting. Everything cannot be done in a day. As Bacon truly said, " States, like great engines move slowly." T},te .Present Government is' moving s!owly, but 1t lS movmg surely. The founda­tions of a ,very progressive State are now being truly laid by the present Government and if we are allowed to remain in powe; sufficiently long Queensland will oe the most prosperous State in Australia. What we want in Australia _;, a t~riff that will effectively protect our mdustnes, and I know of no better way of getting that ·effective tariff than by returning a Labour Government to the Federal Parliament at the next Common­wealth election.

In 1913-14 we (JXported 595,000,000 lb. of wool. We manufactured only 11,699,000 lb., that is, under 2 per cent. of our wool clip was w·cd locally in manufacturing industries. In 1914-15 we exported wool to thP value of £21,591,000, and imported woollen goods to the. value of £1,849,000. We have been sPlhng to Japan a great many items of raw material. and during the last year we have heen selling Japan a considerable quantity of :vheat and getting it back in flour. Durmg the last five years Japan has in­creased her exports to us by £4,000,000. Iron and steel goods alone cost Australia £14,000,000 to get from abroad during 1915-16. In 1913 we paid the United King-. dam and other British Dominions £50 000 000 for imports, and we paid foreign c~untries £29,500,000. Imports have increased from £11 3s. per heaed in 1901 to £20 per head in 1918-19. This cannot go on for e...-er. \Ve must make Australia a self· supporting country. The war has given Australia the opportunity of establishing a number of new industries. I find that the iJsuc> of capital approved under the \Var Precautions Act amounts to £30 000 000 and the industries established include 'iror: and steel 'works, <mgineering and metal works, rubber goods, apparel and textile manufactures, lime and cement production tanning, woolscouring, paint manufacture: and so on. But that,is not enough. Instead ?f utili~ing £30.000,000 for capitalising these mdustncs, we should have started industries !o the value of £300,000,000, but it will come 1f we get an effective tariff and that tariff will come shortly after the 'Labour Govern­ment gets into power in the Federal Parlia­ment next year. It does not matter what the freetrader may say, we must have protection in Australia. President Lincoln's dictum: still holds good-

" \Vhen we import wl>at ,, . .., might pro­duce, we get tl·e g-oods but the other country gets the money; when we pro­duce for ourselves we keep both goods and the money."

These word~ were uttered' many ;t'E'ars ago. and they st1Il hold good. Australia's export trade could have been greatly assisted during the war if the Commonwealth authorities had taken prompt action in building ships. But I find that down South last vear thousands of bags of . whPat were lying rotting on tht> wharves and in the storage houses. '.rhe wheat was being eaten by rats and mice. It was w l.itin<r for ships to take it across to the other s;rle of the world. In Victoria there WPre 1,5CO,OOO carea,ses of mutton and enormous quantities of frozen rabbits w~iting-

Jfr. Forde.]

430 Address in Reply. [ASSE:YIBLY.]

t.u bP exported. The Melbourne which is a Tory newspaper and politics of the kind supp~rtecl 'nembers opposite--

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Not at all.

"Age," supports by hon.

Mr. FORJ?E: Hon .. members opposite h~ve had their opport~mty, and I hope they c~·IIJ a,I,Iow me to contmue. The Melbourne

Age says-" Millions of tons of wheat and other

export1tble goods have accumulated in our stores awaiting a means of trans­port that shows no signs of materialis· Ing."

In another issue, the "Age" said-" It is true that every country in the

world, Australia alone excepted is hard at . work building ships; but V:e should wnte ourselves clown as a nation of ignorant f?ols were we to rely on any external a1d, even that of Britain and on the point of time the Federal G~vern­ment has had leisure enough since the proje;:;t was first introduced and cordially sanctwned by the people to consider apd solve half the problems of mankind."

Those were the remarks of the Melbourne " Age" regarding the apathy of the Com­

monwealth Government in reference to its shipbuilding policy. America last year turned out 6,000,000 tons of shipping, England 3,000,000 tons, and Australia comparatively none. Now, I am an Australian first and last. I believe in Australia for ever best­and that Australians should support Aus: tralian industries-that those who adopt Australia as their native land shou1d also help their fellow .\uYtralians to make the country _self-supporting, and not to depend upon Imports from England, Scotland, Japan, Germany, or any other country. Instead of reading on the articles we use here the words "Made in Japan" or China, Germany, or elsewhere, we should be able to r0ad "Made in Australia," and not until then will this country be as pros­perous as she ought to be. The Federal Government has been a dismal failure. It has failed to do ib dnty', and the Melbourne "' Age" rPferring to it rP<'ently said-

" The Federal Government is wasting millionr. It affects to regret the piling up of public burdens, for which it is mainly responsible."

I intend to-night to deal with an industry that is of groat importance to Queensland­the timber industrv. The timb>'l· industrv has been neglected by' past Governments, a'nd I am pleased to note that this Government is making a determined effort to rehabilitate ! hat ind:rstry. Australia, before the war, was paymg to other countries, principally America and Japan, £10.000 per day for im­ported timber, or over £3,500,000 per annum. As coon as we can get shipping we will be paying as much as £20,000 per day, or £7,500,000 per annum, for timbers from abroad. "\Ve now import half our timber supplies, and when our population is 20,000,000, we will be sending £40,000 per day out of this country for timber, unless ·we take up reafforestation very eeriously. Queensland now produces one-fourth of the timber of Australia, and sb" has only one-eighth of the population. She is the only State in Australia, so far, able to 3upply her own needs in timber. In

[Mr. Forde.

Queensland .88 per cent. of the territory is reserved for treegrowing. In France, 25 per cent. is reserved, in Austria and Germany 35 per cent., and in Japan 59 per cent. Australia is worse off than any other country. and, with the E'xception of South Australia, Queensland is worse off than any other Australian State. When the present Government carne into power, the Pnd of forestry was in sight in Queensland. Past Governments so neglected that industry that it appeared as if our forests were about to be taken from us altogether. Valuable timber lands had been thrown open by Tory Gov~rnments and passed to the con­trol of timber profiteers. Those persons got a timber option over some of the most valuable timb~r areas in this State. In 1914, of the timber supplies main­taining the timber industry of Queens­land, nine-tenths of the hardwood and two­thirds of the soft woods were coming from forests that had been alienated from the Crown to timber profiteers. Even the Crown forest areas were being despoiled of their resources by monopoly tirn ber com­panies under favoured agreements, while the private forests were being conserved. Liberal Governments spent comparatively little in reafforestation. From 1904 till 1914 Liberal Governments reaped a forest revenue of £417,000, ancl ·during that period they spent only £34,000 on forestry. In 1914 a Liberal Government spent in forestry the gigantic sum of £7,653, or 10 per cent. of the income they received from the sale of timber. In 1918 a Labour Government spent £23,369. Tory Governments in the past allowed Boldrey and Brett, Russell and Co., Lahey B:os_., and the Cairns Timber Company, Limited, to become the possessors of greater timber areas than the State now ?ontrols.. The Cairns Timber Company IS makmg a turnover of about £150,000 per annum from maple and cedar logs, cut on areas in the Atherton district over which th<o Crown to-day should hold the timber option. However, we know that Tory GovernmDnts in Queensland in the past di~ many things to suit the timber monopolies and the pastoralists and other capitalists, without having due regard to the welfare of the whole of the ~nmmunity.

There is another industry in which I take a keen interest, and that is the cotton industry. I am pleased to note that this industry is being encouraged by the Department of Agriculture. The industry was a very flourishing one a way back in 1870, when over 14,000 acres were under cotton cultivation in Queensland. In 1871. 2,602,100 lb. of cotton were exported. At the conclu­.,,ion of the American Civil 'Var the industrv collapsed in Queensland. and was not revived until 1904, but it made no headway until the Labour Government Ntme into power. In order to encourage cotton-grow.r•· a State ginnery was e'tablished, and the 'Govern­ment undertook to import seed and purchase the farmer:;' cotton. Tiw total auantity of cotton received by the Agricultm~al Depart­ment m 1914 vas 9,445 lb., for which the price of 1.65d. per lb. "as paid. In 1918, 166,458 lb. were received, for which 4d. per lb. was paid by the State. Cotton grows well in the Rockhamptvn district. A farmer in the Dalma Scrub, near Rockhampton, recently took a crop off worth over £20 per acre. the outside cost of tillage and harvest­ing being £5 per acre. I hope that some day

[27 Aum;sT.] <~dd1·es8 in Reply. 431

oufficient cotton will be grown in Central Queensland to justify the Government in e~tablishing a cotton-mill in Roekhampton.

T;,e S'ECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: Hear, hear!

Mr. FORDE: I am glad to hear the Mini.,;tl'r for Education say '·Hear, hear!" From what I have read I think cotton gro"\\~ verv well in his electorate-in fact, most I hingR grow verv . well in that part of the State, even politicians.

l am pleased to have the assurance of the Government that the hydro-electric expert ·:ecently engaged by the Treasury Depart­ment will leav·e as early as possible for Rock­hampton for the purpose of investigating the po•·<ibilities of usmg the waters of the Fitzrov River for generating electrical energv. I look forward to the time when Rockl;ampton will be the Manchester of Queensland. We have all the essential raw products in the Central district to make Rock­hampton an important manufacturing cPnt~e. 'When we have developed our ('oal depos1ts at Baralaba and the i:>tyx River; when we are generating electrical energy. by mea!'ls of a hvdro-electric plant on the F1tzroy R1ver; when we have cotton-mills and woollen-mills established in Rockhampton and thousand~ of small agriculturists settled along the river north of Rockhampton, whose farms will be irrigated by means of a national irrigation scheme; and when we have iron ana steel works established at Broadmount: we shall iind that Rockhampton will be the centre of a great manufacturing district. I sincerely hope that my fellow members and I will be able to induce the Government to go in for a. comprehensive scheme of irrigation. When I was in New South Wale'~ last vear l '"vccikd mvself of the opportunity of visitinp: the Murr'umbidgee irrigation area, and I found that subdivisions had been made in connection with two separate irrigation areas known as Yanco and :Mirrool. About 1,000 farms had been allotted, and the total area under occupation was over 40,000 acres, the settlers on which have declared themselves posse~.sed of capital .aggregating o~er £600.000. This great proJect should prov1de L>r over 100,000 people. Already there is a settlement of nearly 6.000 people, >vhere pre­viously there were not more t ban sixty m on eng-aged in :;hrep-farming. I strongly exhort th present Government to undertake works of this nature. \Y c have in the Central district one of the finest rivers in Australia. It drains 53.760 syuare miles, and it would l,nd iteclf admirably to irrigation. The soil on its ban1<8 is most fertile, and the climate i all that could be desired, and all we want is irrigation and popL!lation. \Vhen we get 'he irri£".ltion the population will corn~. I know that the Treasurer is not a Que0n­streot Minister. but that he does all in his po\ver to support the country districts of Qupen,,]and, and I believe that when we go to him for a national irrigation ,cheme in connection with the Fitzroy River our request will be favourablv considered. Furthermore. we have the DaV:·,on, the Nogoa, the Comet, the Dce .and other rivers in the C(·ntral dis­trd. o~ which :Yir. A. E. Higby, an irriga­tion' engineer, so1no years ago submitted reports dealing with their possibilities for irrigation purpc,es. I cannot accuP the Government of having done nothing with rco·ard to irrigation, because it started th~ Inkcrman irrigation scheme betwuen Bowen and 'l'ownsville. in the Bowen electo­rate. lTp to the end nf June, 1919, it

spent £56,000 on this scheme. When con;t­pleted it will probably cost £200,000, and 1t will be the means of settling hundreds, yea, thousands, of people, who would otherwise have been unable to settle on the land in that district. ~

I am pleased, Mr. Speaker, to see that. it is the intention of the Government to rem­traduce the Bill providing for the abolition of the Legislative Council. During the recess the hon. membe·r for Keppel and I had the pleasure of touring the greater part of the Keppel electorate and addressing upwards of thirty meetings, and we found that there was a considerable· change in public opinion on this important question. \V e found t~at many people who had favoured the retentiOn of the Council had changed their opinions. In fact, one man said to me, "\Vhy, we must be fools to e1cct men to make law., for us, and then insist on handing over their decisions to some outside irresponsible body. Surely we ought to have confidence in those we send into Parliament to make our laws, instead o£ handing over their de<Jisions to a body not responsible to us or to anyone else, but put into the Upper House by past Governments that no longer possess the confidence of the people." During my tour of the country _in the recess I came closely in touch w1th the man on the land, and I am satis­field that this Government should and will do everything possible to assist him. I find that the hon. member for Keppel owd the hon. member for Normanby are vcrv popular representatives of the farmers. The farmers realise that they are doing everything pos-ible to look after their interests. I am pleased to know, there­fore, that the Government intends to in­troduce measures having for their objects the encouragement of dairying and allied industries. I am also plPased to note that the Government intends to introduce the Unemployed \Vorkers Bill, providing ,for insurancQ against unemployment. I have JUSt read a book entitled "The Law of National Health and Unemplovment Insurance," writ: ten in England by M1:. Orrne Clarke, and it ie verv irutructive re ,c·arding the national insur­ance scheme in E,._ngland. I feel sure that the scheme to l'e introduc2d in Queens land will bP a vcrv beneficial one. 1 ..;trongly urge the Go~~ernnu~nt to establi,-:h a:.wttoir:< in Quc•c'nsland. One' could be rstab. lished in Brisbane for a start. I would ack for the first ono to be e'ctablished in Rockharnpton, out I know there is no hope of our getting it. One could be established in Rockhampton later on, and lat0r one in Townsvillc. "Whilst I was down South last ~ear I inspected t.he .\delaidc metropolitan' abattoirs in South Austnlia, and also the StaL' Government abattoirs at liom.·bush, Now South \Yak;. \Ve know that in Queensland to-day many disca·ed cattle are finding their way into the slaughtering yards m~d are being slaughterr d aul allo" ~ d to go out for human consump · tiou. That is not right. The he lth of the public is thereby enda:Jgered. Tho Govern­ment, I think, will remedy that before the end of tlw present Parliament. The abattoirs in Adc:,tid" arc bv far the best I have over Reen. T~wy were ostabliPherl by the city council of Adelaide nnder the provieions of the :i:Ietrc;politan Abattoirs Act of 1908. Parlia~ mcnt passed me·asures providing for the capital of the board to be £388,000. At first a measure was passed providing for a capital

Mr. Forde.]

432 Address in Reply. [ASSE1IBLY.] Address in Reply.

of about £200,000, but it was afterwards increased to £388,000 to enable this board to purchase a fleet of motor lorries for carrying meat and also to erect cottages for the workers and make necessary additions to the plant. Simultaneoush with the opening of the abattoirs in J ;ly, 1913, the city slaughter-houses and stock markets and also the whole of the private slaught~r-houses­about 140-in Addaide· were closed up, and at present the metropolitan abattoirs kill all the meat that is necessary to supply the 2QO,OOO people of A~e-laide, who now get pure, wnol(>•'omc meat. :rhe board charges to the butcher. a sum equal to kd. per lb. on all ;neat kll!ed, ar:d that incl_udn feeding, kill­mg, and mspectmg and dehvery to the private butchers' shops. That is very reasonable. All the butchers have to do is to sell the• meat. The meat is delivered to the butcher by motor vans which go out from the public abatton•·· I ~aw ono of these motor vans being loaded, and hundreds of carcaoses were run into it in nine minutes. I found that the abattoirs board had erected forty-three work­men's houses alongside the works and it ;llarged those men 12s. 9d. per week .rental for a very nice five-roomed ho1.1se. The in­tention is to erect further resido-nces of a simi­lar style.. The Government had erected a school ju:ot alongside the worko for the work­men's children. The':e are, on an average, 240 men employed m those abattoirs. I found, too, that the men's clothes were washed there every day free of charge by a laundry run by the abattoirs board. Once• a week four m_en are allowed to buy one sheep at cost priCe and slaughter it in the works free of charge. As soon as a beast is found to be diseased in those abattoirs, the knive·s which wer: _used in cutting it up are immediately stenhsed before they are used on another beast. The· abattoirs board has to make £35,000 per annum for working expenses before any profit can bCJ made, The lowest profit made by the board since the works started six years ago was £1,500-that is, over and above the £35,000. The net profit for the year before I Yisited the works-1917-was £9,000. They have put aside £85,000 for a sinking fund, in addition to making those v.ery handsome profits right from the incep­tiOn of those works. I found that the opinions of all those who visited the works were of a very high order regarding their excellence and cleanliness.

At hn:nty-five minutes past 9 o'clock p.m., The SPEAKER reeumed the chair.

:!Ylr. FORDE: I aho visited the HomeJush State abattoirs .in );ew South Waleo, and they arc alsq,~0rving a very useful purpose altlvygh th0y· ··,.r;', not so up to date as th~ mu:,Jc.pally-owned abattoirs in Adelaide.

I wish to congratulate the Government on introducing a \'\ orkPrs' Homes })ill "hi eh I think will be of great benefit to the' majority of the people of this St··1te. A much-needed ~me~dment of the I¥ orkcr~' Dwelling.J Art IS also foreshadowed. I Wlf'h to ,oure the GoYernment that the majority of the people of the Cc>.ntral and of other parts of Queens­land where I have travelled during the recess are satisfied with the pre;ent Govern­ment.

GovER:>rMEXT ::YlEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. FORDE: The people of Centml Queensland are not unmindful of the fact

[Mr. Porde.

that the Government built the Alton Downs railway for them-a railway which had been promised to the· people for many years before every election. The Da wson V: alley railway is another which has been built, and the Government went on with the Blackall extension and the North Coast rail­way. '!fe have been told by the Secretarv for Ra1lwa::s that there are 724 men engaged on that railway, and that the line will be opened for traffic between Rockhampton and Maekay before the end of next year. The people I represent are very gratoful to the Government for expediting the construction of that line. The people of Rockhampton rem.;mber that this Government established three State butehers' shops for them and we have a definite promise from the Minister in c~arge of St!tte enterprise;; that a shop ynll be established at North Rockhampton m the near future. The present Govern­ment also built the Rockhampton Technical College, and I am pleased to know that for that colll'ge they placed on the Estimates a sum of £3.000 for additions which have been started. I am also please<'! to say that the electors of Rockhampton do not forgC't that ~he pr~sent Government spent £1 200 an Improvmg the police station in Ro~khamp­ton; that they repealed the Railway Gum·an­tee Act, the repealing of which reiieved the Rockhampton Harbour Board of the necPs­sity of r<>paying to the Govemment the sum of £2,500 on the ~ort Alma. railway. We have also had bmlt the Berserk er Street ·<;hool. wh1rh was much needed, in a por­t~on of my electorate at North Rockhampton. 1 he GovNnment also lent to the Rockhamp­ton. Harbour Board the sum of £24,500, for '':h1ch the people of Rockhampton are nghtly grateful. If the people of other parts of Queensl:md were as grateful as the pE'ople of Roekhampton arc for what the Government has done for Central Queen'. land, the return of this Government would be asmr.ecl .at the next election. I think every r_Ight-thmkmg elector will see things in this hght. I appeal to all fair-minded people of Queensland, not only in the o~ntral district, bu_t over the whole of Queensland, to give this Gove·rnment an opportunity of' holding the Treasury benches for a further Parlia­ment and more. If the Government wins at th_e next election, I ·think the great work: ;vi! I be done, bcc.ause we have only been lay .. m!' the foundatiOns. I appeal to all fair· mmded and progressive people to give the pre .. ·ent Government encouragement and a renewed lease of life wh•'n the· opportunity con:es, and they will never be sorry. The maJol'!ty of the people of this State are Aus· tralians, and I appe·al to them-

" Bestir ,·ourselves, .. l.ustralians, there is a great work !o .be done

There's a natio.n to be built ~P beneath the. Southern sun, :

A natiOn where no serf shallc::.quaii hene·1th the tyrant's rod ":

A nation whP•·e 'no man shall starv•· for want of hread."

Hoo;ouRABLE ME:l!BERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. H .• L RYAN ((.'ook): I beg to move the adjournmpnt of the deba.te.

Question put ant! passed.

The resumption of debate was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at thirty m'inutes past 9 o'clock p.m,