Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

WEDNESDAY, 16 AUGUST 1905

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Technical Eduration and [16 AuGusT.] Publie Instruction. 331

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

WEn~EBDAY, lG AGGcsT, 1905.

The PRESIDING 0HAlR1!AN (Hon. A. Xorton) took the chair at half-pabt 3 o'clock.

SAVINGS BANK SECURITIES I:L\ LONDON.

The PRESIDING CHAIR~:lAN "nnonnced the receipt of a letter from the Agent-General aR to the Savin~;s Bank securities depo-ited in London.

q·GESTION. TElms OP J~"GAGJDJE;~~T m· IxsPECTOH OP

TEOHNIC,\L COLLEGJ;JS.

Ho:v. A .• T. THYNN E a-ked the represenf ,. tive of the Government-

1. l.Yha~ are the tcrmj of the cngrrg-0mcnt of 1Ir. J\fcLea1_1 Ridden a;.; an officer of the Dcpal'tment of Public In, t:nwt.ion;;

::.. \V ill the :J.linister lay upon 1 he table the corres­ponilence and papers rclatmg to bis employment~

ThP SECRET.UtY FOR PFBLIU IN-8TRUOTlON (Hon. A. H. Barlow) replicd-

L 1)nder sections 08 and 3G of the Public Service Act of 1896, the I1ieutenant-Governor in Council, upon the (ccommcndation of the Public Service Boarct., approved of the nppoiutment of Robert 11cLean Ridclell as In­spe~tor. of Tecllnical Colleges from the 1st of July, 15-lOn, w1th E.\ . .Ja1·y at tlle rate of £~75 per annum. Jlr. Riddeil is"an o!licpr of the Fonrth Class, Professional Division, and is suhj~ct to the Public Service Acts ancl 7egulations thereunder.

I now lay upon the table of tho Council corre­spondence and papers relating thereto.

Ordered to be printed.

TECHNICAL 1WUO_\TION AND THE DEPARTMENT OH PUBLIC IX-STRUUTI02\:".

Hox .. \ .. J. THYNNE, in moving-That, in tbe opinion of the CouncH, the administrittion

of the Deprrrt.ment of Public Instruction is unsntisbc­tory in its relation to technical edurntion, and requires improYemcnt-

said: In apJ)roaching this matter I etm fullv cognisant of the impc~rtance of the q nc,tion, and of the 9enonsne-...s whwh attaches to 1ne in brino-­ing the n1otion forward. There run verv fe~v matters in this St 1te which 1·equire clmt~r and rnore careful attention than the question of tschnical instruction. Upon it will devend very larg·ely tbe prosperity aud the welfare of <nir rising genentdon, TJ nle~s we let tho:-;e y~1ung people of this State see that they will have an eqnal opportunity wi ~h people eu1ni:;g frmn nt}H:;r ·parts of the world as workerN: ns ren-a.rd ~ educa­tion for the appiication of their l~ower" their skill, knowledge to the :-.mbjeCL th<·;y iind arounll Sfl ~undy they will have to take a srcondary pm•ition and aJways make way for others who havu had better opportnnitJes. I think that is enongh for 11Je to .:":ty h1 general terms to justify the cnntentiou that th,, ques­tion nf technical educ-1tion is one of great and urgent public importance. 1J p to within the last year or two, the subject w.<s one which receiYerl little real care or attention from the Government depA.rtments of thi~ State. It was left to individua]o, instigated by a desire to improve condition of the yonng people around then1, to organise thmnselves ~ and to .approat:b the Government for sotne ::tHdistance in

the carrying out of wl1at \vas abRolntely ntce~­sary fot the fntnre nf th,, State. That as"istance has b~Pll gra!1ted to a cert8ln extent. by P<:~rli~­lnentj but I think I an1 not at all vvrrrng 1n sa.ying tha\ on the wlH,le, ;-l!JC'"' tb:-tt :u:;:-;i<;:t·ulce was cnn11nence j a larg-P proportion of the tnnney '\.Vhich \Vat:; de\.-otoo:;d by Parlhtment to the pro­n1otinn nf ren] t "chnic·tl ednca.tiun baR not been applied. VJ tha~~ purpot:;e. It ha~:' been lliied. ln HbllV 111 'ltance n1erelv as ,.., Hl' .lt1 • .;; of g· tt1ng fund~.;;--a ~id(~ i . ..;sw-' ____:_for 80-L3lled t-iChc,·,h; of arL ln thi~' ~tate for the pnl'pnse of kr-eping- their building·:-; g-oing. 13efnre .Jnl.v, IDO~, it btc:amH alnw4 l'idicnlon.;; the r-xtt>nt to \vhich thu fund::-; given by the Uovf:rnment, 'ver nppli, d to T~nr­pose~ '•nch fh 1 ial!o-playin["1 tnn.""'lC', and things of th:tt kiud, <.vf1ich hard_ly, b;r any .'3tretch (jf _the in1·~g:iw~,tion, cn.n hP c ,Jled tPe1nlienl edncatJOn. The DepH..l'tment of Publb Iustrncti• .n seen1ed to be rdrn(, -t pa:-;:-;in~ in the rnatter nntil. in HJ02, it was found t.ha 1~ tho.e, what I rn:-tv call RC,tndal8, had accnrnul:tted so n11wh that' attPDtion was forcer! Ll d1e necec,ity of doing something. to prev8nt thAw 'u·•tt-~ of pnblic money in the direction it was gning. Regular ion~ Wt..~re then pniJlOUnded by the D;r.e<rtment of Pnblic Irwtmction, nnd the technical board \Vas in:-:tituted under those regulations. I was apprrJached a OJ11.:' {rf N~~vernl--"fHit, in the instance, hy the Goverrnnent, or by ~1ny of thP Governrw·mt, or by ::J:ny Governn1ent otfie8r. The firBt per~on who .spokf' to n1H W,!K the gentlPnlctn who h.~t<R worked :-;o long aR dirtctor of t.he Bri~banG Technic ... l Colle~e. r\..t that tirne tlw explanation w .ts IllA.de tn I?e that the cm1ditiun of t!Jin2''; ·wa~ t.-o unsatlS­factont that it \Va8 nece .c;arr' and th:.tt. they \vere lug·ins upon the (;.overnr~Ient tbe r;,ppoint­IIH·mt of an independent board v<~ho would be c1pable nf giving smne :::Lssi~'"·,,nce to the ~1·::­p:trtmE~nt, which waH jncapitl>le of dealin(./ :v1th technicct! ednc.ction in ::m effect.ivA W:>'.. [Hon. J ... HINOHOL!U'HJ: '\Vho wa; the :Mini, <Tat that time'~] I think ::ifr. :Hurray. The,,,,. ti he ·.rd of it wa~ rny appointment helng- in t Ou-.ette as a n1ernbe1· of thu Bo::trd of '1\-chni. L In~·t.rnt;­tion. Later on. after a, c )n:-;ider::thln lapde of time, the buard w<:t~ coust.itntPd, and began operations. rrhat wa.~, I think, the first step of anything- in the shaup of an t·fFectivn atten1pt on th8 part of the Gov~rnment dc>partment tc; deal with the qnesti.m of technical educ,,tion and put it on Humething like a r'-"ason.:~,ble footing·, the eJ..uHe of it hein~ the di,;.;covPry, or ratb_er t.he report, that the m•,ney that h ,d been httherto entru;:;t.ed to the department for f'xpenditnre had been lar~elv y, .t,.;ted. l shall have t.,­rtifer to a good n~;:1ny f •et~ in cnntH'cti~m with that bna.rd and the que. .t,iqn~ :,ri~ing t•r:.t of it, but the board it~elf h-.~ P"'<'"ied to exi~~t.. I arn now b1ingin~ lH~f( ;;e thP }louse a, repre . ..;en­tation of the- c~·;nditinn of te.~llllical ,, ducation and its adminir·tration by thP Department of Public which will involve many i:-J-<llC". In fir L place1 I Hhall ilav•-~ lo ci·it.i-cise, <."tnd to criLiclsP severely, t.he condnct and tht~ act.ion of }.Iini.:;tt-T at t.h.e he~d 11f that drpartrrknt. bha,ll havo C(:~rtain chnrgrs tc n1ake ag,tin~t hirn which I eon:-;ider an-J \~:ar­ranted, und which 110 ~bni8tt-r ocuup_ying that potJition (Jnght to be. liable to havH made a~aiu~t hiu1 v:ith u.n \ instice; and I shall after\vardR go on to .-;ho\\~ tf1at, in m:·: eYen \'>'ith the a,:-;..;istanc~e thev ha\'1·! ]n the rt~~pRrt-Inent, the det~artn1ent, pn<;ent con-stitution, it'-> ineapable of jlv-·tice- to the qnel-:ltiotJ t,f technica,] ednca.tinn in tbis State. 1:-lfJn. gtmtlernen bu.. \'e he:trd of the g-reat diffi-culties t}w,t; ato<e the Clluncil of the llri:;;bane T\ and tlte Board of Teuhn1eal Instruction. lllV l'ema.rks by saying thrtt "council rnean:, ~hv, YK the council of the Brisbane Technic<tl College, nnd

Hon. A. J. Thynne.]

332 Teclmical Educat:on and [COU,NCIL.] Public Instructwn.

that "board" tnf<tnR the Board of r:t,echnical Instruction, 'Whi.ch \' .h"l c .n:".tituted in 1902, as a board with partly adrnini~tradve functions, s.uch as the holding of examinations, the considera­tion of inHpectors' reports and matters o( that kind, and vartly as u bc,ard of advice to advise the 1liniHter on all matterc connected with technical instruction. That was the func­tion which was inq;o.' ·;cl upon the bond. Re,;ula­tions \rere i·" ued, and arc in exi.stence, wit.h some s:ight antendnh:-nt~, up to the pre ent time. But "the !wad and front of the offend­in~" on the part of the board is that it has unju .• tly and wrongfully attempted to interfere with the intern»! \\·or king of the Bri,bane Tech­nical College and with technical colle(ies gene­rally. I set out with this view: 'l"hat I shall show that there is no act <lone by that board that has been found fault with, and ttlat is not strictlv and honestly justifiable bef,•re members of this House. I will show that stat• ments were made which those whe> made them, if they bad only taken the trouble to make tlw I-'roper inquiry, would have found to be untrue. I will show that those who-.!e duties it v,ra"{ to correct those misstate~ ments, if they did not forward them, at any rate, remained silent and allowed those misstatements to be made. I have further to charge the .Minister with, in this matter, having acted in anything but an honourable or creditable way Bithf'r to t.hP. ho~,rd nr to thf:) nlil f'nnn,.il of the Bri,bane Technical Colleg-e. Information has come to me, since t.he hon. gentleman spoke last week or the Week before, which has opened my eyes, and which has impelled me to bring this motion forward so that the House ,end the Brisbane Technical College and the country ~hall know where the re~p(ln~ibiiity rest~ for the nrlfortunate 1nisnndcr.standing that hus ari;-;en. :\Vhen the present :\linister assumed office, if he did not think that a board was nece,sary or ad­visable, it was a very great pity he did not act on that vie\v at that time. No one could have found fault with him if he had announced it as a change of policy on the part of the new Govern­ment then cmni.ng into officE>, and uobody v.:onld ha\·P had any reason for offenc:e. Hut the 1\iinister, inste~ 1 of thi", although he dc>ired at that time to get rid of the board, lJacl not the courage to take that action; but he ende,lvoured to so arrange 1natters a::; to find some fault or excu~e to cond, 1un the board, and on that ground to gee, rid of it. So\v, the btm. g -,ntlema.n in Lhi8 1-Ion::;e has denied the etatement that he had enc,Jur"g<"d the nlmnbertJ of the council of the Bri-.;bane Techni­cal College in their resi~tanc· to the Yiews (lf the board. l 'hall quote upon that pre,;ently; hut, before I approach that, there are certain point" that I desire to cleor aw,.y. The hon. gentleman, in his ,peech in my "bsence in Sydney the other day, used language to w hi eh I take grave and seriousexce1•tion. The hon. gentleman, r-ferring to myself, "aid-

He has not had access to official documents as I havl', and he may have been got at-if I may u::>e the e:xpre::;sion-by discontented people, of whom th ·re Et re a feil' in every department; a,nd there ar alu certain pe1·~ons, wh01n I will not name, ·wll·J a.l"P 2ttcm9ting to grind a littl8 a.xe on tho depart­ment by g,-,tting certain contraets without com­pch7,ion. All these things may hnv,; combined +:o pruance a false impression on the' mind of the hon. gentleman who spoke last week.

}"urther on he said---l:very word of what I lw.ve stated I can ~->nbstantiate.

But be did not content himself with that, for he wound up by 'aying-

I can only suppose that he has been inttueneed by persons who had axes to grind, or by d.iscontcnted persons who are anxious to cast a :slur on the adminis~ tration of the Education Department.

[Hon . .A. J. Thynne.

Now, I woulrl like to know what warrant any Minist-:T has to associa,tt:~ wy nnn1e or the nmne of any hPn. member of this House with such a trant'action as an attempt to gPt-presnmably bv smne unfair or in1prnper Inean:-;--a coHtract from the de]nrtment without the usual fair com­petition for it. \Vhat right has the hon. gentle­man to do this? Is there any justification for such "-l1 aspersion upon the character of this House or on the character of any memb. r of it? [Hon. T. O'SuLLIVAX: lt is not suggested.] I ask him or anvhouy else to reod the word:< and say wh8ther any other meaning can be put upon them than that which I have put upon them. I hope the hon. gentletHan will not endeavour-if I u-.ay nse the term-to sneak out of the state­ment he made by any such statement as that. lHon. T. O'SULLIVAN: No such st"tement was ever made.] There is the st<ttement. It has remained in Hansanl for nearly a fortnight, and it has not been thought necessary by the hon. gentleman to g-et np and correct it. Can any hon. gentleman in this House attribute any other meaning to what the J\finister said? I can only characterise that statement and the imputation as either an utter falsehood on the part of some­one prompting the hon. gentleman or else as a complete invention on the varl of the h.on. gentleman himself. Let him take his chowe, and let him answer. ]'or my part, I say t-hat n-nt~l T -ru••£1 tht:;> hn.n c.-.:,nt.lomQn\.:! Y'll-

;,:;a;kS ;;;ly <~ r;ight ;;~· t\V:~, ~go,u I never heard a word about any contract. I know nothing of any purcha.;es. I have not the slightest idea what it is about, and neither profes­sionally, volitically, privately, nor in any other way, has this nu~tter ever conte nnder n1y cog­nisance in any ,bape or form. :\Vhat justifica­tion has the hon. gentleman for a,l;'sociating n1y name with anything of that kind ? I challenge the hon. gentleman to bring· forward, for the _in­formation of this Hou"e, the facts upon winch he based his etatement. Let him give the names and the mbjBcts of thi' contr.,ct and tlJOse who wanted it, and we shall then have some light, perhaps, thrown on the business administr«tion of the department in regard to contracts. People do not attempt to get contracts by such m<>ans unless there is a precedent fnr them. The h"n­gentleman, in bringing for\\ ard the fact that be has been approached to get from him improper coJtracts or conce~Hion;; nwkes an arln1lssiun of the public estimation in which the busineh. ad­ministration of his departm,•nt is held, [Hon. T. 0'8cLLIYAN : \V hat nonsense!] The hon. gentle­man further refers to diecontented persons. K ow, in the whole course of my connection with the departinent and with the people in the depart­ment, I cannot recall a sinJ;k instance of any person whom I approached making "ny com­plaint about a per~onal grie\·ance. I sought information eYerywhere I could get it. I sought it from men and women who-if one may judge from their position and respon,ibility as persons entrusted with the charge of imporbnt schools­appPared to he the very flower of the teaching staff ; and I do not recollect any one of those people making any personal complaint about their own condition. But, with only one excep­tion, they found great fault with the old system of primary education. That is the discontent with which I have met--disc<,ntent not with the condition of the teachers themselves, but dis­content with regard to the bad effects Pn the children who were supposed to be instructed under the then existh g sy;.tem. I have ~ad appeals made to me by men and won1en, begg1ng me not to let the subject drop until I secnred son1e ernendation of the coud.itions. That is the spirit in which my :tpproaches to the officers of the department were met, and for the hon. 9;entlernan to attempt to put aside or to

Tedmical Education •rnd [16 AUGUST.] Publie Instruction. 333

throw an}' slur upon the rnoti,·es with which I have been acliug, i~~ !:limply one of those unfortu­nate thin~;.:; which Il18!l \vlll resort to when driven rnto a corner. Having cleared the ground in regard ~o that n1a~~ter, I may claim that in the action l ha\·e takuu in eonnec~ion with tt'chuic.-tl in~'tructi•·n I have not been actua~ed by a de-;ire tu Cllrry layuul' Yith elecwrs or electot·u.te;, Thi:5 is not <1 m:1.tter to be f,mght out in the interests ,,f ,u!nlt-, It is a rnatter which I htwe been fightinq· and pres::3ing for in tlw iutcr• ·~ts of peovle ho will neeorne votert5 \Vhen rny intel'est in puli­tic«l affair; will probo.bly have dbappe,;red. I may s«y further that the attitude 1 have as·,urued on this que~·ti\lll has in ~mne instances led to 1nisundt'rRtunding of rny position in n~g<-trd to St te ednc;ttion. .\ia,ny of 1n.r· friend.-; do uot approve of it-they have certain griG'> ances in connection with it,; but I ha.ve taken uu noti-:;e of this for the time heim;. ::\'Iy aim and object has been, and will continue tu lw, to see that the money which i; being expended by the State for both primary and tcchnic.1l educa­tion shall b" expended on safe lines, and so as to secure the bet'!L result>::'. to the veople f(Jr whose benefit it is expend~ d. It is r~-tther c:iscouragiiJg, after uue bfts tctken an acti\·e part in endt·av·~ut· ing to Lring about illl}Jrovementd> tbat oue's motiYes should be misinterpreted-and I say wilfully rni,int~rpreted, becan"·' the hou. gentle­Inan who has done it has no justificatiun, either in his pa..;t exp~rience or on any other gr,Jund, for assumi:-Jg th.t.t. I wa:::; actuated by any other desire tbau c1mt of the public intete.,t alone. I

\>ill now refer to the ditficultv \Yith [4 p.rn.] the Brisbane Technicd Oulleg'e, and

I d,, not think I c ,n expbin iL in clearer or betLer term,~ tL .. tn those which wera uaed in an official cornlnunic.ttion fnnn the Minioter to the boetrd. I have kept my copy of the correspundence, wlti_(~\J every rnember of the board g~)t, Copies of ;J.ll the J!l'Oce.jdings of the bmtrd, corre~pondenc", and rep()rt.s vvere se,Jt to every member of tbe Lom·u two ur three days before the cl<ly of n1eeting, HJ th;ct they migllt rPceive dne considcJratiou bE~f~n·e our n1eetings. The letter was written by t11e pres-";t MiniRter, and i" daced lOth :FehnLcry, 190-±-

Sir,-The Minister desires me to state thfl.t a deputation called upon him from the Brisbane Teclmictl College and laid before him the fact tha.t thei::.· very straitened finances were further redu:..-cd by the disallowtUlCC of the endmnneut upon che1H istry and assa.: ing, together amounting to the sum of £]() ls. ~,hortlv after the M mister took office your board, on the :?:nd Dec ''ll1 her, 1903, passed. a resolution 1vithholding your recommendation of cn­dOI\·ment upon tb se subjects on the ground of want nf qualification in the tt :.,cher, ~Ir. Green, not be ansc th?y 1vere .subjects itnpror ~r for endowment. The whole question of tcd::.nical cdlwation must at one) engage the attention ot' the Government the affairs of the Brisbane Tf'chn{cal Oollf ~e are l~ a.Uy so C(Jlllpliv1ted U3 to h tvc nt>arly led a. short time ago -to it practical closure.

ThC' 3.-fir;<oter, upon hu·thee acqu~1intancc ·with tlF~ _\et of Incorporation c" the Brisbt.ne Technical Coll"0'C, has mTived ut the conc1usion that he has no power ovPr the Co11e~e. cx.c"'pt that. of refm;ing· to place a. snm on the Est irnat 'S for the iT endO\v­ment. He is ec~un.:ly nn\Yilling- to Teject your recom­mendations, and d;rcct pa.;nnent of the disallO'\YC'd rums, altholl~"h, poss1hly, his power to interfere in any way with the Brisl:ane Technical College is opC'n to murh lcgnl un<- ·:rtainiy.

TlL~ :Mmister, thE:n<'ore, suggests that your board nJUV be pleased, in vi\'1,V of ::m early l'eview of the whOle position, to :.cquie .ce in his opinion that he kts no powc::::, either aeting upon h: 'I 01-vn in tiative or upon your rec./rrnncndation, to interfe~·e with the intprnal working of the Brisbane rrechniCnl. Collcg·e Pxccpt by withholding from it all State aHl. under the .:\ppropriation on page GB of the .. Estimates, 190:1-4"'

He is so sensible of the great va1ue to the Rtate and to the public of the earnest and unremunerated

of vour board tMld of the council of Tec1lnic ·l College that he is convinced

moti · s in '"bus addres.'.ling- you will not be toot!, and he has not the most remote

altvra.tion in thr_~ working of othc>r institutions 1vhich, unlike the Brisban~ Uo1lege, ha;ve no sper a.l .:\et of Incorpor-

have. &.· .. , ,T. G . ..:\NDEHSOK, ·cncler .Secretary.

rrhynnc, :JLL.O., 'fl2hnieal lu:::;truct ion,

That letter is a pi;, in stc<tement of th<-c views of the :vlinLte~· submitted to the b 'ard for their consideration 3.nLi fur adviet'. The bmud, as I have stated, wert· required, by the regulations constitutmg them, "generally to advise the Seeretary fur Public Instruction un Inatten:; relating- to technical educa<iuu." The hon. ;;entleman appe,Lled for that advice, and, if hun. JIJe-nbers will JLtrd·m lllL', I will read the reply of the board-

Sir,--I haYL' the honouT to uc~..:nowledge the .re­c.jpt of your letter of the lOth instant conveyn1g

vie·ws of the ::1iinistcr in relation to the 'bane Technical Colhg·e. Your letter was read

at the mc-:ting of the Board of Technical Instrnc­tiun hC'ld on the 11th instant, when the membrrs present desired further time for consideration 11f the important {1uestions su~Jmittcd for the advice of the­board. antl at n meeting held on the 17th idem the board, after dne deliberation, drsired me, on their heha1f, to connnnnir tte to you their opinions on .the matter0 in qu~stion for the 1-Iinister's con' ideratwn.

For the mC'mbers of the board I ha\e, in the first pla, , to express our apprec;n.tion of g1e very kind}y reco::rnition bv the :Minister of our efforts to dls­charie ths d1itics which have been laid upon us; mul ~ve cord:ally concur in the recognition similarl,Y accordl"d to the \York of the members of the counmJ of _be Brislmne Technical College in promoting the C<.lnse of tec'tnh al education.

\Ye very much rrgTet that any serious conflict of opinion should t S:ist between tln.t conncil and our­selves, and \Ve feel c:.tlled upon to put the present position of matters very fully before the ~iinistcr.

This hottrcl has been constituted by the Governor in Conneil partly for ·Hlministrative purposes, such us th·tt of hold ng examinations, and partly .-·s an advisory body to nssist the }linist r in his gener,:l t'nntrol ( f tc~hnical instruction ~nb~idisc1l by the :--lt te.

1t appears, tb-·1 '•forr, to be our dl•ty to submit to thJ }llnistc>r our ndvice on th8 fluestions referred to i.tl YOUr lett<~r, and on the action which the council of i:he llrib1 _tiH> Tcc-hnicul {~ollcgc have thought fit to take.

B0fore :,;ay last it bN·amc f'Vi{1Pnt to the board that in somC l tsc::; the capacity ancl qualifh :1tions of tPach(!rs t)f .•miJsitlisccl classPs wcTP, to say the least oi it, vcrv donlJtfnl. \Ye felt then that it was not iust h""~ · nor to tho:_\ pupils that tbc work of in-~ should lJc rccng;n ·.ed offi •ially, and

thP --:~at and 1Jy putjl:-: \YE' were not in a to n'C'OllllnC'nd the ta1;;:ing of steps for

qualifications of an thC' teax_ "tlrrs 'H' d<'sir d to guanl against the

of nt>w dassc~ to he irrstrnC'tccl hY h 'lC' "l'S

ona1itlc.;rions fnr thP w ~rk '\VC. \\':-Te not nTI.d .,, ith that vic.v ''Tote to the different

fll• ,·tin that no new chW':> !or whic?­to~ · c1almec1 Hhou1rl be 0stabhi-'hed until

of the in tench d cour~ .. _, of teal.'iJin,:· and tru ht>r und his qualification~

for tLe npp:rovnl of the lJClard.

:\:r; ohj{'ction wao:. taken to this request 17 any of t1w cDllf:ges, ~md it \T .'-i, in ~~~-L·t, gPnerally eompl!cd 1.,-Jth. The Brisl JJlP. Tecl::.nica1 Coll_~~·e compl1ed with it in conncdion with four classc intended to he c ~tab1i .hrclunc1er 1\Ir. Gn~rn's in truetion, an(l ~u'hmit+~c1 numercns certifi1 as tn his com-pctpncy. \Vith regard to two the fo:ur proposed da ' " :Jir. Grern's compd ·ncy IVftS ;mmed:ately reco~nisrd bv the hoard. \-Vith f(·~ard to the other t-..vo r·hu-scs 't]w CL; tifir a.tes were practica1ly silent. the onJy qnalitkation as to ehemistry b~\~g t~nt of a vass in that subic"t on a ,"-:ydncy LniYerstty ~C'nio-f. Examination, Which the board regarded as of value only to show an clC'mentary theoretical

Hon. A. J. Thynne.J

1'eclmi1·al Education and [COUNCIL.] PuMi1· Inst/'uction.

kno'.'_·Iedge of the snbject, falling fur shm·t of what ·would be needed for a tf J.chPr of tcchnicnJ chem~stry, and .uo quali1lcatiou \Yas shown for nssay1ng.

On consjderation of the pl1JJCl's submitted to us tht~ board resolved as follows:-

'l'hut the bo::rd consider that :Jlr. Green's testi­monials are SU1JiL.ient tts regards the teaching of f r· )log_· and min 'ralo~y, bnt not of che1uistr:- or ts.· 1:yin~;, and ask for dct ~ils ef the syllabus in geology and mineralogy.

.. And tll" lUte_'

W:-t3

the

\Vhile ·we submit that we "\YOre

.sphere of duty and of ed·K J.tion in tlll ~ mutter, \TO that thl counctl of the Erisbm::._, Teohnical haYe seen tit to challenge our _:,_;tion a;· an invas~on of their rights under their statuto of incorpuration, uud have even gonP so far as to '\\Titc to our secre­tary a letter, of. \Y!lit·a I enclose a copy, dN1ining furthC'r eommunrcation Y, ith the board.

iucorpor~1 tion of the conncil of the mus J therefore, be referred to

a vir~/, to ascertaining its true posjtion. \\re :,ave carefully t'JllSttLPr:.:d it, and Leg to po1nt out that the council coT,litl~;.cd bv it J~ave no exclusive jm<cdwtion ovrr the busi·"ess 0£ technical educa.tion, •:ithe1~ in Brli:ibanc or Pbewhere, and have really no .tun ttons or public or private ngllt ~ of bc .. ·oud ":hat m:;ty De cxt•rc·ced ore _joy,_.d r-nrporatwn or lll(tividnal person engaged 111

<jr other cduc.ttion. The ~\et is purely an incorpor­ating statuto giving the council the h'gal powet to hold l~ncl and to cxc~ t."c as a. corporate body only such nghts as any prtvate concern may, -without anv such enabling statute, enjoy in th~ conduct of it~s O'\.'rn intnnal affnirs.

\Ye regard the coundl of the Brisbane T:;chnic'll College as being in no dift'cr,-nt position, so ft~r as relates to the matter of claiming State subsidy, from that 01. any of _the other technical collPges in t~uecns­lanU \vluch ~trc 111c Jrpon.~.ted and are managt;d. bv local co1mnittl'CS. Of course, ·1ve recoo-nisc that tllCirs .is the largest institution ''"e ha~c as well a::> the oldest, and also that the~ ha.ve by years of patient, steady work rendered great &:-rvices, and ,,.c mav add that we regret exccedinglJ- that the recent retrenchments in State expenclitnre have causPd them finauc·nl embarrassment for 'vhich however this board is in no way resvonsible. ' '

w·e are invited by the J\Iin1ster also to consider the effect of the schcc.lulc to the Appropriation .. Act of 1903-4, and from the terms of your letter it seems as though hP felt himself obliged to pay over to the council all the endowment refcrrrd to in that schedule or none of 1t. I am not sure that \Ye have not ~nisunderstood the ~linistcr's suggested action, hut lf nut \ve would :rr-,pectfully ask the ·"~inister to further consider the matt~r before arrivino­dcfinitely at that conclusion. ,::.

~\s alrel.ld,V pointed out, it appears to us that the council oi tlH:1 Brisbane Technical College is, l'C-

1at~\ 'ly to the mai.i:cr of suhsiUy, in the eame posJtion us J.ll the oth, _ _r technic.a] institutions. 'l'hat ~·ouucil is not reft :red to in the schctlulc to the _\ppropriation ..:\et, and \ve c:onf'~ivc that it is open LO the }1inister, strictly speaking, to subsidise any other tc•Ju1i' ·-L] institution which may become cstab­liahed ,in nridJane, u.nd which he r.lay think fit to l'eeognlSC.

If any one is allowed to ignore the rcgula-ti(ms, to I fuse co-operation in the effort UO\\.

being made to take the matter of technical instruction out of 1~ '' hitherto unsatisfactory con­dit:on, and C\' n to tleclinE::: to cornmunit :tte officil1llv with the board appoi·ttcd by the };xecutivc to de<;l cl:lpec_·any wit}l that matter, and, at the same time, t J rcc· !YP without qu( .stjon the snm set d01vn in tl1c schednlc ~·JT tcehnica] jnstrnction for its locality,

we ' tn onlY come to the conclusif u that all colle~·es shotlld be treated alike, with the con~

that the Jepartmcnt may be regardc'cl a::; n.n.\- rig·ht to _apervisc or cheek the cxp ·ndt-

tllr' the ~ta7e snb.:.ich~ or the efficirncy of the teachmg it IS inL11drd tc: c.emFe. ~

I have, &c., A. J. TnYNNE, Chairman.

Tho.t letttr embodies, in as phtin language a·, it was pos,ib!e to employ, and after most careful

[Hon. A. J. Thyn1M.

thought, the line decided upon by the bnard and submitted to the J\lini,ter ior his consideration. If the Minieter did not approve of the con­clusiuns of the boa,rd there wnR nothing- to pt·event hiln saying-, "I can no~, accept your views; I Hhall <1CC in auotht<r way.'' He was quite frc ·· to take that. c"u"e if he thought proper. Later on, atter he had nJade several auJJe t1s to thn buard to stultify tht'msdves, by endeav0uring to get the board to abandon the y_iew.s tbt·y had !-<:J can~fully arrin~cl at, they c~dkd npon him in Vt~ry R~t·o,·g tern1s to act, and give only sueh \veight to their opinion'> n.s he thought they deSITved. And yet we have the hon. gentleman saying in thiR Hon~e that tho board of Technical Ir:.strnction endeavoured to a..-;:~unw and to t::ncroach upon the t·rivileges of the J\1iuioter, to dictate to him, and to inrerfere with him. I ask !Jon. gentlemen, after bearing th:ct letter, to say whether, fire& of all, the board c•mld umne to auy other concl11sion; and, secunrily, wlwther the board \Vere right or wrong- whether it \V-ls not a re~pectfnl and proper n presentation of their view f.:, and whethel' it ;.vas nr)t about as fair a.n effort on the p.crt of the Board to do loyal and hone'" service to the 1\IiniHter at the hnd of the departn1ent as could be conrr~~,.- ·d .. l :-::aid en n previous occasion that one 1 ·H~ diiliculti~,s in the way wa~ that ( , protecting the ~vllnister against hiuJself. ~['hete i~ an instance of jt. 1 :-;.lid before, the t .m. genrleman started out \vith a deSire, unknP\\11 to us­unknown to me at the time-to put an end to the board. lf he hart done that as a matter of pnb!ic policy I would have been the last person to h'lve ni,ed one wmd of ob.iectioll; he would ha\·e had to take tbe re,ponsibilir.y for it. But instrnd of that, I now charge him with having gone behind the backs of his own advi'·.ers, and having encouraged the then council of the Bris­bane '1'echnical OollegR to resi>t and to oppo-.e th<c views of the board ; and that he was there behind them to support them in everything. The hon. gentleman has dNlied that statement. I repeat it now bec:iu'e I know more than I did then. If he denies it again I shall be pre­pared to meet the horr. gentleman before any tribunal which this House may appoint to inve~tigate the facts. He is no doubt a gentle­man who exerciees self-de·rial at times. I think I shall ask him to deny himeelf at the pn sent moment. I bold in my hand a clipping from the Brislxtnc CouriC?· of the Gth May, 1!!04. It is a report of " deputation from the council of the Brisbane Technical College which waited upon the Minister, nnd from it I will make one short quotation-

The )linister said Mr. By ram knew his private opinions. He had written: .. I have so often ex:­prcs~ed my personal ind: bt·.~dness to you for the efforts vou have made in the cause of technical educa­tion, nild I have so often disclaimed any dcsjre to in­trude upon the self-governing powers of your Act."

The Minister Rt:tted in tlris House that he had not given any en8ouraf!etnent tf the 1nembers of the eouncil of the Brisbane 'l,echnical Collf'ge, yet hen· we find him statin,; publicly that Mr. Hyr.tm ktlOW what his priv ~te opiniDns were. :\nd tho::-te priLtte npinions were that the h1ini.ster had no love for the board-it\ ·a .. not his creatidn, and he would he very r.dad of an opportunity of getting rid of it. ._\nd when it waH pointed out to him tiJat he as :Minister had the power to r;et rid of it at. one time, he c~id, "I did not like to do it. ·what a time I should have in the Council if I did that." I will not u'e the exact words he stated. All this time we he,ve the Minister in his desire to take ad.vnn­tage of something to get rid of that board, and have seen him urging them by all sorts of appeals to abandon the principle they had

Tedmical Education and [16 AuGcrsT.] Pub1ic Instruction. 335

arrived at as the proper principle on which they "hould act. Yet he Cull! eo dt>wn to this .House and makef' the denie-d \Vhich hon. gen~ tlm11en heard. L ctel' on, after that clear exposition of the attitude of t.he board on tt1at importa,nt qnestionj there i.,;; another lett(-'r whirh I shall qnote. The 6th April, [think, is tlle real date, thongh it pnrport~ to have heen wri~ten on the 5th lliarch. It ii-5 signed hy ~\i r.

Story, on b~:-half of the r·ndel' ~c...;rotary, and i~ as full<l\r.s :-

,<-:ir,-I huvt" thc> l10nnur, hv (\.in·ci ;on, you that the HnnouralJlc the declined to extend any further repayment of an in::'ltalment of the made to the Brisbane Technical Golle~?:e--nanlely, £15{}---thc position of that instihr shortly become as cnti( ~1l 2J ever. cannot permit that .inatitution to clot:Jc its doors. thes l 1n only be }(ept op0n by paynLmt of follo\ving deferred suhsidies which "\YE're, he 1wlieYC'S, objected. to by your board:-

ChCJ;tiotry ,'end assaying to 31st Deu;mlr:r, 1903, £1G Is.

Chemistry and. f1F~1a.ying to 31st :March, 190-d-, £"i6 10s.

rrhe Minister is very n1110h averse to adopt this espcc·ia1ly at a time wh~ ..1 the whole s,,:stem

technical Pducn.tinn is about to be n•conct:rudl'cl under authority to be asked from Parliament, and he dePms it nn~y a proper act of COlJrtctoy to inform you of the difliculty in which he is placed, and of the ltll''''ll8 (the only ones at his disposal) which hP proposes to employ to overcome it.

Apparently the fate of tlw Brislnne Tecbnic.d Coilege is going to dPpend upon the payment of two dPfPrred ~ubsidies arnounting to £02 1ls. Then came representations frorn the cnllege to the l\1ini,ter, and from the ]\Iini,ter tu the board, which I will not weary the House. wiLh, A special meeting of the boanl w '" then i:eld tu consider the whole question. The lwn. gt ntle­man endeavoured to put upon the board the responsibility for all those dire c mseqnenc·"s th:ct were t.o follow, and the appeal" that were made to endeavonr to induce us to de~art from the studied and careful conclu.sirm we had arrived at were met with these three resolutions, which I will read-

The board ~annot reconunend the }finister to approve of any arrangement with any techni; <.tl colkge which does not fully recognise the authority of the Ministt>r to insist upon compliance with any requirements which he may from time to time consider reasonable und ncceE<;ary for the purpose of securing thrc application of the endo-wment to­wards the promotion of th~ technical education intended to be encouraged by it, and of seeing that the teach~ng of endowed subjects is of a satisfactory character, and imparted by qualified int~tructors.

The Board recommend that in the administration of the endmnncnt fund no distinction should be made in favour of any one nollE ;e, as they are of opinion that, so far as endowment and the require­ments to be fulfilled in relat10n to it arP concerned, all colleges should be treated on a relatively <'qual footing.

Those are the substantive resolntions expressing the opinion,, of the board, practically repeating what they had preYiously advised, and to prevent any further misnnderst,,nding they met the ::Y1inister with this resolution-

The board resp 1 ctfully beg tJ state that they hn:ve no desire to impede i:u any way the making of a setg21ncnt, whioh the :Minister consitlcrs to consist,~nt wlth his rcspon!<!ibilities as head of department; that they recognise that their rec,pon­sibility i& limitfd to the reco1nmendations the~' make to him from tin1e to time; and they there­fore trust that his action 1nay lJC: decided upon having regard only to the weight whi'"'h he thinks pror,·T to give their rccomnH:mdations.

Yet we have the :Minister, who has received that strong ad vice-that challenge from the board to act on his own responsibility-coming here and telling the House that the board

attempted to usurp functions tbat did not belong to thell!. l ask, could it be possible for the board to pnt its position in n1ore propf'r lan~uage than is contained in thr"·e ir11portant re,,olutwns? J a1n not going to di~cuss the qn~stion whether it is wif:ie nr nut to have a diRtinction lwt\v-een one co1lege and another, but I "·ill say this : That when P:.trlian1ent vote.-:; Inoney for technif'11 education, and itnpoHe_s nn a departrnent ~he duty of s,eicg that it m properly eXj)en~ed, the •h~}Jfl.r:ul':nt, nt any ratp, should not du.cnnunate l!et\Yt" n one in;...ti' •1t.im: and nnoHH~r in tbe \V[-qr

it adtlliui~t:er-~ thv.t tunc1. Snb-.equfnt to thil:'~ the council of the technical college sent in their resignation, and, from the inf{Jrmati•n1 l have now, I do not wonder that they did. From that infurm<ttion l find that they bad been deserted after having been encournged to stand Ly the view they t~ok up. The l\lini,ter had nut the strength in hlrnself to act up to the represent~L­tions \Vhich I clahn he mc:1"de to thern. 1\'o wonder the council of the Br!shane Technical College tendered their res~·::nation. I regret very 'incerely indeed that 1 did not understand the" po"ition which led to the resignation of the old council as I do now. P-Ion. 1\. HrNCH­CLIF~'R: \V a-; it not as a protest against the action <>f the l.Joarrl?] I du not knoiV thmr n:otive. They re;-;igned, not as a rna:ter of pro­test against. the action of the board, but as a protest that the action which they harl been led to expPct from the he>tcl of tbe department W>ts not carried out. If I had known the true posi­tion of things, and the cmnn1unications that pasRecl bet\<een the Tvfini~ter a.nd the 1nem'oers of that college council, I wonld have said the council were quite right. And I do regret tltat in the a!J,ence of th.tt knowledge, which has cmne to rne :dnce, I took part in assisting the l\Eni-;te-r to get together 11 b0ard uf very capable m<on ao the new council for the Brisbane Technic.,] CG!Jege. I •,rould not have said a worrl, nor written a line, as I did do, harl I really known what the position was. But when the names of the new council-capable men all ot them--were submitted to the Minister, what did he do'! He accepted the re•ignation of the members of the council whom he had all along induced to believe he would support in their views. I think I an1 not using too strong a word when I say the :iYlinister betrayed the trust of the members of the old council of the Bris­bane Technical College. 'l'hat new council has cont.inutd at work since with t.he usual pro­portionate change~, and everything appears to be working entirely smoothly. Still, there are one or two little things worth tnking notice of. The Minister fell back upon a debate in the Legislative As>ernbly, which I will refer to presently if I am in order-it was not a debate of this F cossion-as a justifi­catinn of his rea~:on for aboli::-hi11g the board. As o., C'm~ef]uence of the vvork of the boa,rd, tecbniccJ in,truction in this State multiplied

wholesale. I quoted figures the [4.:iO p.m.] other day to show that all the

colle;;-es outside. thP Brisbane Tech­nical College multiplied in one year by over 100 per ceut., and ''retty well all the <hrectors pf tho.Je c,llleges admitted that thot increas'' was due to the work of the bo,.rd. The number of class enro:ments in all of those colleges in­creased in one year by lli8 per cent., while the council l'f the Brisbane Tc:chnical College, led on by their under:-;tanding of ,vhat was goiug· to be done to estahlish the view which they were de~drous of having estahliRhed, fnnnd a decrea~e of over 28 per cent. in the attenrlance at the1r col!Pge during tbfl ye<tr. I do not know that I am going beyond fair comment when I say that that decrease is directly and chiefly attributable to the incapacity and the want of action on the

Hon. A. J. Thym~e.]

336 'l'eclwica7 Educatiun and [COUNCIL.l Public Instruction.

part of the hon. gentleman in c~u~rgB of the dev1rtment. \Ve have heard frum the hon. gentlen1nn a. good deal about t11e nnrrnous amount of work he ha~ to do in the cl8p:·~rtment as an excuse for not 1 eiog able to do nwre than he has done. \Ve lead "recital of :he wonderful performanCf:"3 he has done. l shall quote one-

I would a:sk an:, hon. g'81Eleman to in4_nire among-st the members of tlte A~~emlJly whether tbaL ctep;utment has betm ueglf'cLcLl, whdher corrc." 1•onde••cc ha<> been del~•.H'(i. I ha Ye my~ed' tlr:lfttd the li.-.:t. or ~TiC Trmcc·;.; ol' memlJCrs, pnt tlwm down in my po(~kct~book, and sent them lJ&ck answers the followiug day.

I think that the expres,ion that I used-that the lYiinister was duing orderl:.r-room-~ergeant's work--is fully borne out by the distingubbed functions which the hon. gentleman there st~tes he performs. \Vhy should a Ivlinister have his time devoted to filicg complaints of that kind? I say the otlicers of the department should lw able to deal with thin:;-s of that rw ture. l s it not tlw case of the senior partner of et larg-e firm going· behind the counter and weighing out a pennywor1 h of soap or a ha'porth of blue, instead of attending to the big qut>Rtions affect~ ing the conduct of the busine's! The cause of this explanation is the very reason why the hon. ger,tlernan has been unable, up to the pre~Jt'nt, to put techllic~tl educ,ltivn on a proper basis. Does tht: h<m, gentleman forget so soon that he has had a Bill in print tor prPtty well eighteen mollths, and that, while he has recn :;.ttencltng to the nurnerous 1nembers of the Legi-lati>. e Assembly, he has been neglecting tht-: cou~ideration of important que::;tions. [l-Ion. .J. T. ANNRAR: He has been elPctioneering in the con «try, too.] [Hon. T. O'SULLIVAN : You were doing a bit.] [The SECRETARY Jo'OR PcBLIC I~::'lTHCCTlON : Sat·ln re1 ·rovitJg :-.in.] I wil: en me now to the reaoon w hi eh the hon. g~·ntlt:-tn:tn g.uve thi::; House aR one of the reasons which lt"d the Government to abolish the bllard, and I shall refer to the statements which have heen made the f•<lmdation for thb rli~satiofaclinu with the conducG of this awful board. Mr. Kerr said, filtit of ;.Jl, tbat l 1st year the board cost £7ii0. Th«t is not cm-rect-that is not lrue. Mv recollec·ion is that the bo"rd cost less thnn £450. But that i~- only a 1ninor point. l\Ir. Kerr, in hj,; ~peech, on page l2D.'i of 1-lansard for hu:;t yeRor, said-

This board deleted from the lbt of Rubject.s on which enctowmenL shonlcl be paid the very snlJjeets wh ~h were oE a. popular eb traetee. ~imply lJceaus~._' t.lwre wa:-; a drcs~auaking ela,,~. whieh was one of the most popular classes in the <'Oil· gl:-', aurl \Vas cloing };ood work in instru··ting- yonn~ WOllWil in the art of drc.:;smakmg. so as to fit thcrn for C'tl'ning their own livelihood if threlwll 011 l"beir own resources. the endowment \Yas disallowed.

What an awful board! The Board of Tech­nical Instruction never delet.eO. a ~ingle ~nLject frmn the list of eudn\vrd. ~::;nbjects. They never recomn1ended tbe ddt~tion of any subj•JCL frorn endowwent, or }~nything except iu tht• wny of a change) twrhaps, in the descripti•m, or by \Vay of tr"mfer from one part of the schdnle to another. :\lr. Kerr went on t" say--

Then, ~tg::tln, tlwrc was the book-kcctJing cl as~. }~very­one kuew ti1at iL hall heen ve1·y JlO nlar, but tlle lJoartl laid <l.01Yl1 tile <li(~tum that no endowment shoul\l be given nnle:'s the sLnd,·uts attended two-thirds ot' the term, and nnless :t t'ertauJ percentage of the students weut up for exnmination.

The board did nothing of the kind. Before the board cmne ir.to existence at a;l, the reguLttions under which the board was to "ork contained the following :-

Subsidy not to b~ paid unlc~s the student attends at least t\"vo~third~ of t.he numbt.'r of times on \vhich the class is held during tile period for which subsidy is

[Hon. A. J. Thynne.

claimed, and the student not to be reckonetl :, . prL<sent unle~s he attends at lcnst t.wo-tldrds of llle time occupied by the k'-son.

Yet, despite the bet that that regnlatiun wa' in exi.-;t ence Leforf' the board v.ras ~Lppointed, a 1Jron1inent lliernbBr of the A.·,;~e1nbly iN h•d tn nH~ke this statt-ment without correction either tht·n or sin("J by t.he 1lini:-;ter or any of his co1-]e .. ,,gut>s. I have b)() high an opin~on of Mr. Ken to thinri: that he would wilfuily mc.ke any ..;t~1tement which was incorrect. 1 an1 satidied that he was supplied from ''llme sonrce-l will not say where-with tho'e statements or he would not have made them. He goes on to F:ty-

The ·,ame principle of disallowing endowment bad be~m applied to the modelling and french-polishing classes.

If hon. gentlemen refer to the report published by the Secretary for Public Instruction and laid on the table of thi.o Hun -e, they will see tlmt the, VEry first rl'c(nnmendc.Ltion rnade by the board at their first n1eeting in 1H02 inclndt"'S these very subjects. Mr. Kerr is still permitted to go on without correction to say-

HF~ could not, as ~L sensible man, understanU jtlnr:r.r should be allowed when endmvmcnt w~s allowed on staircase rails and cabinet~ma.ldug, and other advanced worl..:.

The presnrnpti,,n being that this awfnl board had refu,ed to aliow eudowment on thm;e sub­jects ! Those subjects also were inclnded in the recommendations of the board with reg.trd t· endowment. They have never departed fNm those recommend<ttions, and I am sure th2,,; every member of the board would still adhere t those recom:mcnda.tions. :\.Jr. Kerr) speaking the Bri:-;baue Technical College, is reported t(1

have said-

They bnd a veTy gOO(l st.aff there; bn~, simply bc('ause some of the ruelllbers of the 'l'eehnic'11 UoHege LoarC! wetc not in favour of :-.,nne of the U•,achrrs-f,llC in. particular- they thcnght that lt ongl1t to be wiped out.

Thi; paltry idea of personal preferences is utterly nnjustifiaLle, or rather, t.he statement i> nnju:;;titiable. Tnen he goes on to spen,k of a numbl·r l'f other ~ubiect.;.; which ·were not en-dowed-- ·

The snbjccts \Ylli,•h 's':;re not to be r-udO'',ed were­art needlework, Prcncll, Grrman, ea.ke-iecing. frcucl::­polbhing, letLcr-\VTiti; .. ::, si.~·nwriting, con rcctionel'y, up­tJOlsten. llouf'.c paintin-.: anfl dccnr:lting, Glhbroider-, rmd wool-cl,...ssir.g. Wool··C~as~ing was a. subje~t. whiCt was very n<:'cc/-lsary. Hntl ought to oven an aYenue to 111an.v men in thts t'lhte, and take tht:m away from th~~ public service, an<l a snbjcet that om· young men C'Hll·J not bf~ too hi1dlly i.nstrncted in.

Reference to page·,, 7~1 and 7·1 of the report of fbc S>~cret~ny for Pnhl:..; Instruction will ,,how that the board r•.Cl)llllllE'tJdeJ all thn..;e ~mbjccts fn~" enclO!v\'lilfDt. o~.hel' J1lPlllb8TS Of t.bf': .. ::\ .. ~S81!lb]y followed ~\Ir. Kerr. The })'h,i,ter'" own co:­leagne, the H on1e Secretary, said--

The defcc-::. in the llrc~Pnt system wfl.s that the Secre­tary for l)nblic lnstrnl'tion hall pl'aetically no conh·ot in the mattc:r.

Can that be Slid wit.h ju,tice after the appeai which the bnard made to the :\Iinister t.o exercise his O\Vll judgment. aul decide whether he thought the recmnmendations of the board \,·ere right OF

wrong? But the hon. gentlernan has s-;wh a con-.titutional objection to, or dread of~ takint;: r• '"on,ibilitv that the whole thin~ has been landed in ttiis muddle. Then the Home Secre­tary said-

For ln,;tance, they had stoppe(l some endowments to technical collcp;e8 outside wbicll were scarcely justi­fied.

Terhnical Education and [16 AuGusT.] Public Instruction. 337

The board stopped no endowmentv,, They stop­ped the mi,sapplication of endowment to a very considerable amount. Another member, i\Ir. McDonnell, said-

The late Government stoppetl the endowment on cer­tain subjects, and afterwards the board did not ap]H'OYe of the endowment on certain subjects, with the result that the Brisbane Technical Collct:>·c '"as brought to the verge of insolvency.

\Vrong, and not in accordance with the factR. Then Mr. Kenna said-

\Vhen the board came into existence it wiped out subsidies on a large number of subjects, "\vhich had the effect oi' crippling not only the Brisbane rrechnical College, but ~L great many country colleges.

The hon. gentleman has the records of the board's proceedings in that department-they were kept fully and accnmtely, so far as I am able to judge­and I challenge him to find any instance in which the board endeavoured tu cut down the end0W­ment or the SLlbjects tbat were endowed. \Yhat is to be thought of a :Yiinister who brings forward in this House a" an Axplanation of his action in connt~tion with technical instruction, and his rejection of the volnntftry services of eight or nine people who were gi-vil'.g careful ~tttention to it, the fact that a debate or mrred in the Assembly, and there was a the vote would not pa""• never that da,y to this the slightest p:>ins the members of the Board, to whom he owed at kut tile duty of fe,]ty for their service to hirn-never one whisper or ·word hin1 or any of his colltagues to correct misappre-hension which existed. \Vhon I was spertkipg at OlJGning of the FfJ.~lon on this question, and asked whether the Minister had not held out encoumgemeut to the old of ~;he J:,ri~bane Tecbnjcal CollegP, 1-linchcliffe interjBcted, '"That I an1 a tnernber of tbe couEcil." it is quite patev:t that the bon. gentlernan, having been 1nem ber of the o]d naturally referring to lnOLtters a1·Ling connec~ tion \Vith the present council. [Hon . .c-\. }fixeR~ OLIB'FE: Yes.] \Vel!, ,,·e had the :\finistur quoting that st::ttmnent of the hon. gentle111an as c,m·oboration of his stotccmeut that he had not held out indu~emente, which I contend be has, and hi.m with h'tving held out.. In one \vay i3 allunn~J.:cur-l that the hon. gentlem~tr: ft.cl the subject ''nd should his but why did he act, npon doing this shuffle much misnuderstancling, and such ~qerions injnr.r to the Brisbane College·: \Vl:ile other colleges have their operations in one ye1.r per cent,, n1d while they succe,,sfuily without troubling t~.c the departntent over nlattt~rs of because they are in a sol vent position~ one college which ought to be the most :-:;uc~..-.::ssful, and which would have most succe.ssful if it had not beun into a Inj-:taken I''Jluse nf action. has suf­fered frorr1 a decreaRe in the nun;ber of its studn:ts. That is an illustration of the effects of the administration by the deputment of which I complain. "vVe have he trd from the hon. gentleman his great profe,,sions: of ndher­ence to the principle that animated his Jotters to the board-that the Brisbane Technicn.l College Council were entitled to greater con­sideration than •my other college-that it would be an infringement of their act if he attempted to pass any regulation which would in any way affect the colle:;e, and that the council did not require the approval of the Minister or of the board of the system or the teaching in the colleg·e. But in his pro-

1905-Y

fessions of that kind he seems to forget that he himself at one• time committd himself abso­lutely to carrvino- out a c~urse which would be an i1ifringement "of what he believed to be his riaht course in connection with the college. The hon. gentleman held the view that he has since expressecl in this House-that he. wo?ld not be justified in making any. r~gn!atwn un­posing npou the college any restr1ct!on of endow­ment or requiring appro\'al of the~r teachsr.s. or anything of that kind by any outs1de author1ty. Yet, what do I find? A little scrap of paper which I h~ppened by accident to put n;>Y hand on within the last day or two, which I vnll read. It is in the handwriting of the Minister, and is as follows :-

Dear Thynne,-Last night the Cabinet had nndor con­sh~eration the B.T.C. matter. Suggest that you pass the chemistn· m:ttter, and I will make a regulation that in future e-\·ery tr tehcr whose worl.;: is to l~c endowed must be approYetl by me on recommcndat10n of your board. Xo time to write formally. Try what yon can do.

A.H.B~

Hon. A. J. Thynne.

Here is a nnn of high principlP, who desires to iwep the colleges from any infriugment of their rig-ht cour,e, tempting board in this way to stultify themsdves, as would stultify himself, by mctking- the regulation which he believed he had not the right to nvtke! Here is another san1ple of that administration of the dPpartment which I complain of, and whi~h I submit should not be toler>~terl in this country. I will not detain the Housj very 1nuch longer in dealing \vith the hon. gentleman, but there are certain things \Vhich I n1u;;t refer to. Speaking of the board, he said-

Almost from the n:.ry lnceptjon of this board trouble >uuuccllvl with J.I1'. Dulrymple, and

.. A. n1ore unfounded PJ..atanent could not be rnade. The board hnd no quarrel with Jl.fr. Dalrymple, and the board never thre:tten;:d t\) resign. \V hen the time comes for the board to t·esign, tlwy would not thrc ~ten, hut they would resign. The first recommendation made by the burd in Hl02 was when l\Ir. Dalrymple W'tS n:Iinister. \Vhen the reconnnendation for the rddition of new subjects was no;; accepted, we sought 811 inter­view with the ::\linis>,er, and thrashed the matter out with him in tbe lTIOBt friendly n1anner, and he gave us a frank and fricmdly answer. He said, "Ladies and gentlemen,-I quite agree with yon in all the recmnn1endatio11s you bave made, They are nll desirable new subjects for t Jchnical educa,tion, but I n,nt not at liberty to allow ~:ny increase in theexpcnditureln ccmn~ c':lon with this Yote. Much I r,gret that I am unable to approve of it, but it -is not in my powei'," A perfectly fair, fL,,nk, straightforwa.rd answer v:hich scctisfid the board, nnd ''"hich has affected t.he board's Gm duct right throug·h their exi, tence. Because I can clajrn this, that in every rPcmnmen­dation the board made yon will find, in expl cna­tionof their recommendation, the', tlwy have taken particular care to let it be shown that to carry out their recommendation would in vol v J no extra expenditme. That expenditure wonld be taken fr01n subjects now receiving a subsidy and applied to those where the board considered it \vas 1nore needed. Rtght throu~h the who]e career of the board that has bren a point with the member., of it-that they should make no recommendation which would infringe upon the principle laid down by Mr. Da!rymple not to increase the expenditure. The :Minister ca,nnot show, I am sure, any recomlnen­dotion made which is not >~ccompanied or cannot be supported by the board on the grounds I have stated. But those recommen­dations are here, one after the other, mentioned in the report paragraph by paragraph. And

Hon. A. J. Thynne.]

338 Teclmical Education and [COUNCIL.] Public InstJ•uction.

what was the answer: '' ~o action on the part of the Government/' "' Potltpont'd," and so on. \Vhen the reconn:nendationt-3 were 1nade with re· gard to the Eybten1 of enduw1nent, smue objection was taken. and they were su\nnitted to ::t con­ference. The conf~:-rence sub1nitted alternative recommendations, but it was quite plain that they were iinproper, unfair, and unju .. t tn the State. The .. \tini~ter said they pnn,~icied for bunlnun ,c, ttend mces, yet he used DlH:h recmn~ 1nendations as an excuse fo1· refuHing :- trong recornmendn.tions of vi tal import, nee ~.o the lll<:l.,tter of technical education--recon1111endat.ions which would h:...ve vut technical ecluc \tiou fol' tJ·e first tir:ne on s01nething approaching a SJund footing, which remains to this day nndone. It is a state absolutely of stagnation. The hon. geutle1nan~ in hir< defence of hi."' department, made a great deal of my having misquoted dates. If the hon. gentle1nan \vill refer to the report in llansard, and observe where cmnrna placed has altered the sense, will iin<l five of the large sun1s of 1noney which w~:re deviattd fron1 tecbnic:1l instruction to other purposes were revorted to the. board on the dat,_H I lllentioned. le was st ·.ted that all these took place before the ::\IinitJter car11e into Three of tho.:;e cases were brought nnder notice of the depart-ment by the board during his tenure of office. The board n1ade stron~ recmnmendations to the }Iinister as tl) the n8cessity of t::tking actionj and no action whatever was the rmmlt. The bon. gentleman says, 1n regard to one caRe, that un explanation was submitted to the board, "and they were evidently satislied with it because they did not rer:ommend nny fnrtber action.)' That sta.temf--'llt is wr(lng, absolutely wrong. 'fhe board saw tech­nical college n1oney being spent on school of arts prelni:<~-~, and it 1;vas statt~.i that some arraogen1ent had been ·made between the two

institutions by which the interests of [3 p. m.] the technic-' l college should be safe-

gu~rded. I would ask the Minister to inform the Hou"e how often the :\Iaryborough Technice~l Colle5e has been written to pressing for the cornpletion of thia agreen1ent, and whether it is still in that .tate of incomplete­Hess in which am afraid it is likely to be. So far from the board being satisfied, we urged 1

certain course of action-that the interest.:; of the technical coliege should be protected by a proper agree1nent. The hon. gentlernan 8ays the board was apparently saLisfied, and recommended no further action. ID that the action of a ~Iinister capaule of dealing properiy with technical instruc­tion? If he it: acting on the inforrnd,tion of the department, is that the action of a department capable of dealing properly with i;echnical instruc­tion-to put before the Hou"e an incorrect stt.te-1nent of that kind? Tben \Ve are told that with regard to one ca~e the technical college vaid to the school of arts the sum of £35G, being- for two yean-./ rent, clerical f-'er\,.ices, in ~dvar:ce, to the :iOth Sept' rnber, lU0-1. Io the class of bu_iness which busine ..... .; pe.OtJ1e will approve of in the application of the funds of a technical insti­tntion-that they should pay two ye:ors' rent in ad vanC'l to their landlord or joint tenant.? That is the way in which the funds appropriated by Parliarnent for the teaching of children in technical subjects are trifled with. The same payment in arh-:wce apparently rmcde at Gympie. J-lowever, will not ~o into those details. I think I have made out a pretty Jlhin case for hon. gentlen1en to see that the 1\Gnister'tJ action h .• -· not be·m of a straightforward, worthy char .cter-of the character of a gentleman holding the position of J\IiniRter and leader of this House. I am very sorry that I have to epeak in tbat way, [The SECRETARY l<'OI\ PL'BLIC INSTI\L'CTION : Keep your pity ; I do not want

[Hon. A. J. Thynne.

it.] I am not offering the hon. gentleman pity or anythin else. l mn performing what I believe tn be a duty here. [The ~EOt<B:'L\RY FOR l'GBLTC IxsTJWOTIOX: Hit hare!; 1';1 hit back.] I defy the hon. gentleman to hir. tack, as long a.-; he adhen.:;s to what is true. But I say the facts I ha,ve Lrought before ynu here arc such a~, I think, jnRtify rne in stating, s\~ far a!-3 the 1\Iini~ter is concerned, that his udmini . .;;tration iR um-;ati:'3factor:v. It has 1leen i:'tticl that when I pointed. t)Ut tbe..;e thin~:;:--:; I '\'B..S findir1g fault ·with their accountant. hac! no wish to find fault with hin1 in the 1legr·, . In a depu,rt-rneut the i-; one iten1. There is "system there, and if the gentleman could only reali'e the difficulty the members uf the boanl bad in ascert.1inir.g at t:H:~ time of their appointment what nnd \,hat were not, he of the utter cuufusion that de-pat'trnent that is Tbey it is one of 1nc~t on Lhe earth, and that vJnyLody ntt~r : \Vord of criticisn1 n1ust be

v·ho r·'<elly cc,nnot be The

dy in the no individual

c -1n, out of. But;­struction) the rep:)rt of the thero is one ':" in it frmn a.Hy prominent of-rlcer of the departn1ent \Vho ::-ee1n:-; to ha\ e the Hlightest notion of technical instruction. They al'e all on subject, and Ina)" lJaye al way·> UBell siient Uf'Oil it pretty well. ThE"V allowed the st,,te of affairs before 1002 to C{;nw in to exi:stence. 'J:~htre wn .. s no 8-UpelTi~ion, no atte1npt to prevent tbe waste of public money that occurred. And when the hon. gt.'ntleinan eau bring fonva.rcl as a jn::;tificn,~ tion for the mistakes that the regulations were complicated, let us see what was the first regu­lation-

L'ntil the passage uf an Act dealing '-rith technical CL~ucation tll~'l'C ~hall bf! a Board of 'feellnical .Edut~a­tion, ~ll111ointcd by the GoYcrnor in Couneil, to consider an cl reeonnnend .reg.~rtling reporttJ on existing colleg-e:; and for the e;;;tabli ~hment of new college~, to c.::xaminations of autl i~sne cm·tifleatc' to stutlents of colleges, :met gcuer!-llly to al1vi~e the Secre-

fol' Pnblic Inst-ruction on watters relating to tech­ednc:ation.

There was an acknowledgment on th8 parL of a departrnent of Gheir O\Vn inc_t{Jtr.ity at that

take up qnc'stiou uf technical educ:\-ii'i an acknowledgment of

had rneu in the depart.nJ_ent to the rnattorj \Vhy C]Jl in

. nee of people of experience outside? has been the ace, of strength

the uf thissub-h''" been Riddell

quickly the con­of the board.

opiniun of hnn is that

when you come tu take him into the of tb» depart­ment as the one inspector of techn;ce~l education, it is asking a great dea.l of a young 1nan like J1Ir. Hiddcll-for he is a very young man to take the great re,ponsibility which thal position ca,ts upon him. [The SJ<;CRETARY FOlt PUBLIC IN­S'l'lWOTIOX : Ha, ha, ha !] The 1\liuister laughs. [The SEcttETAltY l<'Oll PcllLIC INST!WCTION: I do laugh.] It is a great responsibility to take. [The

Teclzniral Edu,.ativn and [16 .AUGUST.] Public InstJ'uction. 339

SEcRET.l.RY FOH PcBLIO Is~TRCCTIOX : J\Ir. Riddell hnR forg-otten more than you knew.] [Hon. A. J. CALL.l.:-1: He rnnRt be a wonder, then.l [The SEORELl.RY FOR Pcmrc IX.'>TRVC­TIOS: Ye.~; he iN a very ch~ver man.] rl1 he 3,Iini:-ter i~ tn.kin~ hi8 usual coursH. He dues not at1prw~iat0 tht· field thBl'e is in thi~ State for techniml education. I shall quote his own \Vords--

b .~tatt·' tli·1t I lla\TC no <qtl)l'C· la~ion of teehnical lf there i~ a thing- that l h;no an apjHc·:ia-

i8. tcelmiJal edw ·Ltion lnt I ·want it to be l'Cal tenhuie~tl' tlue .,tirJlL do \\"ant shorthand and typewriting anf1 dro.-; -lllaki11g. I d_q not call that tc:bnic:?l Tile t-·~ove for real tochnieal Cllncatlon 1.

'I·hsre is where the hon. gentlenwn is rnaking the :mi:stake of his life in w·ith this 1natter. 'rhe !:-iUone flll' this State i~ ·

of l!'Ort J>cnLlU IN~

had that buzzing gaclM intcrferin;4 with

the board came coli(- -::es were able, with

the as,ist>tnce of the board, to establish the improved condil.;ionR which they thmnselvsa adrnit exi't at the present time. [The 8EcllE'fAKf FOR I'I.:BLIO lx~TRGCTIOX: \Vhen w» wiped you out then things to improve.] \Ve shall see. \Vhy did not department check im-

claims were made'? \Vhy th;ct in the depnrtmen t

done': If the hon. "lH1Z7ing

such a pernicious \viping thern out with a

he, at a. thne when lte :\n coxcu~e fdr thcn1

( Ltinr~ and unable to

I have nut.

letter.] That may or may not be so. I am not in a position at thi' stage to recall what the first letter or the second letter contained. I acknow­ledge that in one or two let.ters at the early stag-e, which were sent to the counril, the phral:'eolo;.:::y us,, cl in conveying tb(• resolutiOn'" of the, bo rd t.J Lbem was nr;t of the lwpjJiest kind. [Hon. ~\. HIXCHCLIH'}J: Hear, hem'!] I acknow­lede;e that fnlly and 'incerely, and I person,;]ly explaint-:d gud to dw llldlllber.s uf tbe cuuncil for the tenns we reused in some of our correspondence, Out of \Vhich we \V ere not awa.re until the letkrs bad been written. I hope that the members of the old council and of the pre· sent council will not attriUute to any one n1ernM ber of board the responsiLility for the peculiar

raset>loriv of those letters. I do not wish to that mig;ht reflect upon a ynnng

man, ,,uppose Lhe clerk who was told off to write the letter::' th~nl in the mm8-l ~tvJe of

Public Instruction. "[The rrhat is

did, lmt I thP 1u ,a,rd

p;"niHy of wherever 1he

nuw. to beur it.] uld council

1.:incer9 l:'i:vmp:1thy, betmyed. fThe

: rrht>y were per.-;ecuLt;d y(,Ul' IJO~ctrcl, and by nobody else; and you drt)ve thern out of of-lice.] r~rhe hun. gentleman m~dze.-; ;___, <;tate1nent that iH not c~Yrrect \Vhen he ~~..'1Y.'::l that the board per. ecuted the,n or nnybudy cb •· [The SECR1.TARY FOR Pcnr.lc l:-;sTRCOTIO~: I wili~::;ubstantiatP it when I rPply .] 'There !JaS "' bt, trayal of Loth the technical collep;e and board. I buve det;•jned the Couneil1(Jl1~· euough; br!t I think that J ha.ve fnliy jnstified tf_e rnotion ,,vLidl l ha\'f~ hrou::;ht fonvard, and vro-vcU that the adn1inistrutlon of the of PuiJ!ic I nstrnction j,, not whnt to be. I thank hon. gentlernen very much tbeh· patient ht _tring.

ad,il,lH'ned. (-Jue5tion put t.nd ptt:-:sed.

FOR l!lSBLIC r::."\~ } on lYID\'2 that the re::,tnnp-

~Hand fi..n Ord~1· uf Day ~oay

~\.. J. 'J~HY·;\~J1~: I l1ave no ohjeetion lwtdu an Order of tit~; J)i:v for

tha.t wiil th1:. hulL ·

further ~o hin1.

of rny oy,-n TlltlV{'lUelliS ~her. ~)ECHETARY FOH PUBLIC lX"Tl\VCTl0:-1: You can have priority

Hon. A. J. Thynne.]

340 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Arts Amendment Bill.

for Tue,_d,,y if yon will be here then.] Then I move that the re,umption of the debate be made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

Question pnt and passed. The Council adjourned at twenty-three minutes

past 5 o'clock.