Let's Talk Bitcoin - Ep 107

8/12/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin - Ep 107

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LETS TALK BITCOIN

Episode 107In The Moment

Participants:

Adam B. Levine (AL)Host

Stephanie Murphy (SM)Co-host

Michael Perklin (MP)Director for Bitcoin Alliance of Canada

Emmanuel Delmoly (ED)Co-founder and CEO of BitCredits

Brian Xu (BX)Co-founder of IdeaNotion

Amir Taaki (AT)Core Bitcoin developer, core collaborator at Dark Wallet & CoinJoin

Ron Dembo (RD)Founder and CEO of ZerofootprintErnest Hancock (EH)Radio host and founder of Freedoms Phoenix

AL: Today is May 6th 2014 and this is Episode 107. This program is intended for

informational and educational purposes only. Cryptocurrency is a new field of study.

Consult your local futurist, lawyer and investment advisor before making any decisions

whatsoever for yourself. [0:17]

___________________________________________

Welcome to Lets Talk Bitcoin, a twice weekly show about the ideas, people and projects

building the digital economy and the future of money. My name is Adam B. Levine and

today were In The Moment. My first day in Toronto, I trundled down to the Bitcoin

Decentral, recorder in tow and dived into the Bitcoin/Ethereum Hackathon.

The first half of todays show features selections from that afternoon and includesinterviews with Michael Perklin from the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada, Emmanuel ofBitCredits.io on their Bitcoin voting system, Brian of IdeaNotion on their Bitcoin app

for Google Glass and my first in person interview with Amir Taaki on his Hackathon

winning Dark Market project.

Then, we take a look at Goodcoin with Zerofootprint CEO, Ron Dembo. Theres more than one way to skin a cat and this ones a non-cryptocurrency

approach to quantifying and rewarding good behavior with a barter token.

Finally, we zip over to New York for Stephanies conversation with Ernie Hancock onBitcoin, his excitement about MaidSafe and the Freedom Connection.

Enjoy the show! [1:24]


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________________________________________________

Adam B. Levine interview with Michael Perklin

AL: Im here with Michael Perklin, one of the directors from the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada.

Were sitting in the... were standing actually, in the Hackathon area and everyone is

absolutely down to the wire. Ive done a couple of interviews here but everyone else is

very, very busy as the judges get ready to judge everything. Michael, youve been here the

whole time. Youre one of the organizers of this event. Can you tell us how this has been?

When did this event start? [1:51]

MP: All the volunteers who started on this started quite early yesterday. Myself, I woke up

at 5.00am in the morning to help to get this started. Teams started showing up about...some early at 7.30am but really, everything started at about 8.00am. We introduced

everybody, we took a look at what ideas they brought to the table, formed some teams and

since then, theyve been hacking away non-stop. [2:15]

AL: These are ad hoc teams. These are teams that did not arrive as teams. These arrived as

volunteers? [2:19]

MP: Many teams did come with their friends or their co-workers to work together but there

are some people who showed up solo, looking and hoping to meet someone who would

share their vision. They had an idea, they knew they wouldnt get it done in time on theirown and they hooked up with other people here. Its nice to see that. *2:35]

AL: Youre one of the judges of this event. Any early favorites you can share with us?

[2:38]

MP: I am one of the judges. I dont think it would be fair to share any early favorites but

what I can say is that every single one of these people have been working extremely hard to

get their work done. My work starts when their work finishes and Russell and I here are

going to be doing the best that we can to pick the best teams. [2:56]

AL: Terrific! What exactly are you looking for then when youre talking about these

projects? Whats the criteria that makes one better than another? So far, Ive talked to

someone whos designing a price finding application that uses Google Glass. I talked to Amir

whos creating essentially a decentralized Silk Road, open market sort of thing. It seems like

there is a lot of diversity just in the two that Ive already talked to. Whats the criteria?

[3:18]

MP: Very good point. Each project is different and some projects work with Bitcoin, other

projects work with Ethereum, other projects dont use either. Its going to be quite a

difficult judging process but were going to take a look at the idea, were going to take a lookat how many people were working on the idea. Were going to make sure that all the work


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was done here, or at least the majority of the work was done here at the Hackathon. The

last thing wed want to see is someone who had been working on something for six months;

they launch it here and just try to get the prize. Im not going to say its going to be an easy

process but each of us judges, were going to take a look at the work thats put in, the

quality of the product thats come out. Its one thing to have a great idea but really, the

Hackathon is about execution of that idea. [3:59]

AL: Execution is so critical in this industry. Its something that we see over and over again,

is that the ideas actually are easy and sometimes you just stumble over them because they

are a problem that needs to be solved but the implementation is really the hard part. You

mention that the projects are focusing on Bitcoin or Ethereum. Were in Bitcoin Decentral

and I know that Anthony Di Iorio, the director of the Alliance of Canada has a founding role

within the Ethereum project. Is Bitcoin Decentral, or is the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada.... are

you about more than just Bitcoin now or is the focus expanding? [4:30]

MP: Good question. The Bitcoin Alliance of Canada is focused on Bitcoin in Canada,however the space that were in, Bitcoin Decentral, this is a co-working space that deals

with all types of decentralized apps, Ethereum being one of them. There are a lot of people

who work out of this place just on Ethereum. When the In Crypto We Trust Hackathon was

being formed, Russell thought it would be a great idea to make sure that all types of

cryptocurrencies are represented. As long as it deals with crypto or with any kind of

decentralization, it has a place here at the Hackathon. [4:58]

AL: Has the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada taken any sort of position on Ethereum beyond the

implicit support thats been given? Is there an official stance or a thought that there will be

an official stance, at some point? Or is it just kind of more focused on Bitcoin and theremight be an Ethereum Alliance of Canada also, at some point, but thats a different thing?

[5:16]

MP: The Bitcoin Alliance of Canada hasnt taken a stance on Ethereum mostly because

Ethereum hasnt launched yet. When the Alliance formed, Bitcoin had been around for a

few years and we saw a need for an advocacy group to promote, protect and educate

people about Bitcoin in Canada. When Ethereum launches, something very similar may crop

up or maybe the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada may choose to expand. Thats something for the

members to decide, not for the directors. [5:39]

AL: Terrific. Michael, so the last question is, this is a Hackathonits a contest. What are

the prizes? [5:44]

MP: There are quite a few prizes. Theres a $20,000 prize donated by BitAngels thats going

to go to the lead team as judged by the judges. Theres also a variety of other prizes such as

VIP tickets to the conference. I know there is a Casascius coin thats been donated from

Bitcoinsultants to one of the teams. There are a variety of different prizes. [6:06]

AL: Cool, well this sounds great. Michael, thank you very much for your time. [6:09]

MP: Thank you. [6:11]


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__________________________________________

Adam B. Levine interview with Emmanuel Delmoly

ED: Hello, my name is Emmanuel Delmoly from BitCredits from Montreal. [6:27]

AL: Im standing here with Emmanuel. Emmanuel is not actually participating in a

Hackathon. Instead, he along with Alex, who weve talked with before about BitCredits,

have sponsored this, or are one of the sponsors and have... Im looking at a system right

now that says Vote for your favorite team and it lets people vote with actual value in

Bitcoin, which is an idea that Ive really been interested in for quite a long time. Can you

give me a brief overview of what were looking at here and how this works? *6:53+

ED: Yeah, exactly. Tonight, were going to have the vote of the judge for the winning team

but this will be the vote of the public. The idea is to allow anybody on the internet, or

during the Expo, so this will last until the end of the Expo. Anybody will be able to send a

few bucks, or whatever they want, to the team that they like. They vote for one or many

teams. Weve done a little gamification of that, which means that if you send $10 to one

team, half of it will go to a jackpot and half of it will go to the team. The team will have $5

whatever happens but the other $5 on the jackpot will be won by the winning team at the

end of the vote. Thats the carrot that the team will try to get. The idea is to broadcast that

on Twitter, on Reddit and all the team will talk to their friends and we want to show howcool Bitcoin can be like and how creative we can use bitcoins, actually, for a voting system

a quick, simple voting system. [7:58]

AL: How long ago did you start developing this system? [8:00]

ED: We built that in one day actually. Behind that, there is a payment processor.

BitCredits, the app itself we built that in one day but the payment processor behind that...

that, its not a one day work, its a big platform but we just want to show that we can use

that platform for cool stuff. [8:23]

AL: Besides voting, what other things do you think that something like this can enable, or

not even besides voting, what other types of things do you think that this could enable?

[8:32]

ED: Definitely being toward the micro-transactions. It makes so much sense. I come from

the social game industry, so I know how effective can be micro-transactions and how PayPal

and credit cards sucks on that. For newspapers, for blogs, for a lot of different things, this is

what we really want to see in the future but right now, we are exploring a lot of new

creative ways to use that new digital cash. [9:06]


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AL: You mention that there was a gamified aspect of it that involves this jackpot but when

you initially said it, I was thinking you were talking about for the user, for the person who

was donating, or for the person who was tipping but it sounds like this is an additional prize

thats like the Peoples Choice award, so to speak. *9:21+

ED: Yeah. Right now, its a very small gamification and its all for the team so they have towin, so that they will play in a way that if there is two or three teams, like very close to be

winning, they are going to try to find friends to send more bitcoins to try to get the jackpot.

Its the first step actually. *9:41+

AL: I was going to ask you about that. [9:42]

ED: We have a lot of ideas about more sophisticated gamification. [9:46]

AL: Sure, yeah. Thats the thing about these Hackathons, everyone wants to keep it simple

so that you can get done with the time limit. That is one question that I do have is about thegamification because teams can vote for themselves, and you cant really tell, do you have

any concern about that, or do you think that enough of the teams will have... [10:02]

ED: All the teams can vote for themselves so its ok. You can vote as many times as you

want. Its not like you take one vote and its done. Its all about voting with bitcoins and

trying to capture as many people... I dont think people will vote with $1,000 or $2,000. Its

more about how many people you can gather and they need to do that because they have

very, very cool projects. I have seen like there are nine or ten teams, nine yesterday and

now I think there is ten because there was a split. They have amazing, amazing ideas. The

idea behind that is to broadcast those ideas, to show those ideas, to show that there arepeople trying to innovate on top of the innovation that is already like Bitcoin. [10:42]

AL: Very cool. I see that youre going to be setting this up at a web site. What is the

address if people would like to visit this and try out the tool? [10:48]

ED: Its not live yet but it will bewww.Hackathon.BitCredit.io. [10:55]

AL: OK, terrific. This is really going to take a week or so to get out. Is this still going to be

up at that point? [10:59]

ED: Yeah, they will see the results but actually the vote will last until the end of the Expo

and the concept. [11:10]

AL: Fair enough. [11:10]

ED: Were going to stop at around 6.00pm on Sunday and then, after that, people will see

the votes, and the winning team, and the project, and the contact, if they want to talk with

those teams (??) It will last the (??) [11:22]

AL: Terrific. [11:23]
http://www.hackathon.bitcredit.io/http://www.hackathon.bitcredit.io/http://www.hackathon.bitcredit.io/http://www.hackathon.bitcredit.io/


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ED: If it works, were going to offer that to any Hackathon around for cryptocurrency.

[11:27]

AL: Emmanuel, thank you very much for your time. [11:29]

ED: Youre welcome. Thank you Adam. [11:31]

________________________________________

Adam B. Levine interview with Brian Xu

BX: Were from a company called IdeaNotion. We are a local Toronto shop doing

consulting so we build web and mobile apps and as you can see, Im wearing Google Glassright now. [11:56]

AL: I do see that. [11:57]

BX: We build Glass apps as well. [12:01]

AL: Tell me about the application youre building for the Hackathon. Were now on the final

day, a couple of hours away from the deadline. What did you build? [12:08]

BX: We built a Google Glass app for bitcoins. The app consists of three components. One isa simple Bitcoin ticker, so it basically shows you the Bitcoin value and it updates periodically

by itself. The second part is a Bitcoin calculator, so it will convert ten different currencies so

you can read it to the app, to your Glass, and it will convert ten different currencies into

Bitcoin values. [12:33]

AL: Cool. [12:34]

BX: The third part is that you can read it off a... use the Glass camera off a price tag and

then the app will OCR it and then convert that also into Bitcoin values. Hopefully, it gives

you some access information, I dont know, to Bitcoin to allow you to know how much thatis. [12:54]

AL: Sure. OCR means that basically, the machine can read it and then it does the

conversion on mass. [12:58]

BX: Exactly, exactly. [12:59]

AL: You guys started building this a couple of days ago? How far along are you? Are you

happy with the project? [13:05]


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BX: Were very happy about the project. Again, we are pretty much done at this point.

There are some bugs we are trying to fix and some final usability issues, sort of pay the store

is supposed to be at the end as opposed to the front and things like that but overall were

pretty happy and it should be pretty good. [13:26]

AL: I see people walking around with Google Glass but its not really something that Ivedone... is this the sort of thing that you think is going to catch on? Do you see this stuff in

the future? [13:34]

BX: Yes, we definitely think so. Google Glass and wearables, in general, as in Googles

announced the wearable APIs, as well there field start-ups in Toronto are doing a lot of

different wearables, as well, such as the one (??) with the wristband that uses your

heartbeat to capture and authenticate you. Overall, all the wearables will catch on and

thats going to be the trend. *14:03+

AL: If somebody has heard this interview and is interested in learning more about yourcompany, where can they get in touch with, who should they get involved with? [14:10]

BX: They can contact IdeaNotion, or just reach [email protected]. [14:18]

AL: Thank you very much for your time and we look forward to seeing the results. [14:21]

BX: Cool, thanks. [14:22]

____________________________________________

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8/22

____________________________________________

Adam B. Levine interview with Amir Taaki

AL: Were here at the Bitcoin Decentral Hackathon in Toronto, Canada. This is my first time

in Canada and Im here with Amir Taaki, one of my favorite people in the Bitcoin space.

[15:56]

AT: Ah come on! Dont big me up so much. *15:59+

AL: Oh come on. Youre the big idealist. I love the idealist side of this thing man. Thats thething about it. [16:03]

AT: Its cool. Bitcoins well interesting. Its very different isnt it? Its not one of these

yuppie things like Twitter. Its an actual core technology isnt it? *16:16+

AL: Yeah. Thats the thing. Its a protocol. Its a protocol so unlike Twitter, Twitter is not a

protocol. Twitter has the ability to be influencing all these other things. Before we get off

into that topic... [16:26]

AT: Which is a long topic. (Laughter) [16:29]

AL: Which is a long topic. (Laughter) You told me as soon as I got in that youve been up all

night working on this project called Dark Market. Could you just explain this briefly what

were looking at here? *16:39+

AT: Yeah. Its basically a decentralized Silk Road that cant be shut down or censored with

some privacy features. Its not like a production ready... we just did it more as like a proof

of concept, a prototype, to show that its possible. The technology is already there and it

has all the basic features that people need to trade freely that we can use to claim our

sovereignty as individuals, trading one with another. You have the front page. [17:15]

AL: Im looking at this and it says Submit query, Search for nickname so you can search

for individuals on the marketplace. [17:24]

AT: Yeah, yeah. [17:25]

AL: Youve got a peers here with query SHA. These people youve added to your... *17:29+

AT: No, no, no... the nicknames... theres like a special blockchain. That blockchain, each

block is registered in the Bitcoin blockchain and it groups sets of registrations together like


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that and then embeds the hash in the Bitcoin blockchain. With that, you can query a

mapping of someones nickname to some public key. [17:54]

AL: Its like a DNS system for public? *17:56+

AT: Exactly. Putting the payments protocol into Bitcoin is ludicrously stupid idea because itdoesnt benefit small business, it doesnt benefit peer to peer transfers, and it doesnt

benefit the black market. The only thing it benefits is Bitcoin corporations that can go to all

the hassle of setting that up, setting up their SSL certificates and relying on compromised

certificate authorities that we know large nation states, like Iran, or the NSA, has already

compromised that infrastructure. We have Bitcoin and we have the blockchain so we use

that and thats... if people want to really trade with their sovereignty intact, we need to use

the only form of distributed consensus that we know in technology, which is the blockchain.

Thats what we have. You can type nickname there. *18:53+

AL: This is built on top of Bitcoin and its actually embedding data into the Bitcoinblockchain. [18:57]

AT: Yeah, yeah but its only 20 bytes every few hours so its absolutely minimal. Way, way

small. [19:05]

AL: OK. Youve got peers up here and I see a button that says Query Shop next to it. What

happens if we click that button? [19:10]

AT: Yeah, yeah. It opens a shop front. [19:11]

AL: OK. That opens that particular persons shop. *19:14+

AT: Then theres going to be a description of the product with pictures and stuff. [19:20]

AL: People can leave reviews. Are those reviews credited to their (??) [19:23]

AT: Yeah, yeah. The reviews are here at the bottom and also I can leave a review. (Typing)

Brilliant guy... 5 out of 5... submit, and it appears there. [19:35]

AL: Interesting. [19:37]

AT: Also, I can... which one was that? That was like the pink... the purple... I think it was

this one and I can click Buy by the product. I want to buy your medicinal pills. [19:53]

AL: Youre typing into this text field I want to buy your medicinal pills and then youre

submitting that. Youre not actually selecting an item so much as you are sending that

person a message. [20:02]


AL: This is obviously a proof of concept. [20:04]


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AT: Yeah, it was only one night so we did the simplest thing but ideally youd have each

seller with different products. You click the product. Ive got a multi-sig escrow address; I

put that in my Bitcoin Clan. [20:18]

AL: OK. Now, how does one get a multi-sig escrow address? Is this generating multi-sigescrow addresses for you? [20:24]

AT: Yeah, its generating it. *20:25+

AL: OK. [20:25]

AT: Then I send some bitcoins to there for the product, then I put the transaction ID in

there, I click Paid, the seller confirms that he received it and he says Im shipping the good,

then finally, you sayOK, I got the good and you release the funds by generating the

signature to release the money to him. Then he can reclaim the money but if at any timeduring that process there is a dispute, you can go to the mutual arbiter that youve both

agreed upon together. Here we have identity, which is like your nicknames, you have...

[21:02]

AL: Can anyone be an arbiter in this system? Can any of these participants or only special

participants that can be arbiters? [21:07]

AT: No, no, no, anybody can be arbiters but people have to choose you as an arbiter.

Ideally, arbiters would have ratings. [21:14]

AL: Just like in real life. [21:14]

AT: Yeah, in real life. [21:15]

AL: OK. [21:16]

AT: It would be an open market so you have identity that you can look up the people by

nicknames, instead of these weird hashes, which is the Holy Grail of crypto. You have seller

pages, you have reputation and we also have multi-sig escrow and also private messaging.

[21:34]

AL: (Laughter) Youve built this in the last 24 hours? *21:38+


AL: Thats fun. (Laughter) *21:41+

AT: Thats basically all the features you need. *21:44+

AL: Is this the rest of the team? [21:44]


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AT: Yeah, its designer; he made it all look pretty and stuff... good job man. Its wicked.

[21:50]

Designer William (DW): Youre welcome. Hi. *21:52+

AT: Whats your name? *21:53+

DW: Im William and Ive basically been running interference helping these guys stay

focused and operating... so, efficiency. [21:59]

AL: Cool. [21:59]

AT: Williams also a Libbitcoin contributor. Hes been working on Lib wallet a lot. Mainly

the functionality related to the wallet part of Libbitcoin, like the key stuff. [22:12]

AL: For people who arent familiar with Libbitcoin; this is your reimplementation of theBitcoin specification in a modular version as opposed to everything being wrapped into one

core, right? [22:22]

AT: Do you want me to go into that? [22:23]

AL: Its probably a longer interview. I do want to get to one other thing though, while Ive

got you real quick. You said that the payment protocol is a bad idea to implement because

it doesnt help small businesses. *22:34+

AT: Yeah, of course. [22:34]

AL: Whats the barrier to entry on that because I wasnt aware that there was much of a

barrier to entry? [22:39]

AT: That you need to get all these SSL certificates; pay for them. If youre just like some kid

with no money, the whole point about Bitcoin is its like everybody can get in there. *22:49+

AL: So it adds a barrier to entry. [22:52]

AT: If you need credit cards, you need to set up a VPS, configure your Apache, all this crap.No, its not a good idea if youre going to trade on Silk Road. For instance, I have asthma

and the other day... Im in a strange country and I know exactly what I need to get, I go to

the pharmacy and its like for $20... Oh no, you need to go to the doctor. I go to the doctor

and Im like Look, I just need a prescription. Hes like No, you need to pay $150, and you

need to wait in the waiting room for half a day. Fucking hell. Who is that protecting? Its

just punishing people; its nonsense. Its a sign of how all the jackboots have been pushed

into our face that now we have to ask permission or we dont even have control over what

we ingest into our own bodies. Two days ago, a journalist from the New York Times came to

visit me here and we were walking in the street and Im telling him about there are so many

hackers, in Hackerspaces, they just build technology for themselves little toys, tinkeringbut there is no social motive behind that. Theyre not actually making technology for people


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which is what technology is; a tool for people to use. We walked into a bar, or what we

thought was a bar and it happened to be the Toronto Hackerspace and right there, was all

these toy trains and toy 3D (??) printers and we were laughing. We were talking political

stuff and the people there were in favor of censorship of the internet; the hackers. They

were really in their mental boxeswho will protect us? What about the bad guys? Such

black and white thinking. There are no bad guys. There are different motives. When theSoviet Union fell, the people had no idea how to do business. They thought they were

incapable of doing business because their whole lives theyd been told howthey should

operate in the market. In some sense, were not as extreme as that but we have lost our

sense of integrity. Why not to be with our friends; to network with the people around us

and try to do the things together? Its possible and we have the technology to do it and the

tools, the industry, the different projects of economy around the world and this is why I

think Silk Road is so important because it goes beyond just about the buying drugs. Its a

deeper question... like the internet. [25:39]

AL: When youre talking about this thats the feeling that I get from you is that its notabout any particular object, its about it not being about a particular object, its about it

being open commerce and a real open market where the barrier to entry is people wanting

to do business with each other and finding ways to make that work. These are basically just

tools to create that. Really what youre talking about is just creating a fair market? *25:59+

AT: Yeah, well I told you the story about asthma. Also, in Europe there are lots of seeds

from local regions with different health benefits, many dozens of them but because of some

bureaucrats, who just sayOh, these are the ones that are allowed and everything off that

list is illegal. All the local recipes or local natural medicines... [26:31]

AL: Local. Theyre local. *26:31+

AT: Yeah, theyre just banned and they cant be sold on the internet but with Bitcoin they

can. I have a friend who goes to the fruit markets after theyve closed and you know theres

like the apples with a dent in it, or the tomato thats gone a bit soft; theres nothing wrong

with it. Its just they cant sell it so they chuck it out. He takes that and he makes

marmalade with it and he sells cheap marmalade but because of the EU regulations, health

and safety, blah, blah, blah, he cant sell it on the internet. With Bitcoin, you can. This is

great use of otherwise wasted food. Why not? [27:08]

AL: Let me play devils advocate here. What if somebody... what if he sells that on the

internet for Bitcoin to someone who is in the same country, or in a different country and

that person gets sick and dies because thats something with canned goods, the

consequences are pretty serious if you get it wrong. [27:22]

AT: All of last year, I had no money and I spent... the way I ate was going to supermarkets

and skipping their bins. They throw out a lot of good food in the packaging because its a

day past sell by and its perfectly edible. Theres a hugeamount of waste in our society...

AL: Im not arguing about that. *27:42+


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AT: ...and this waste is not driven by the market, its driven by consumerism, by borrowing,

by growth and overconsumption. Its not about making the things you have go further. Its

about borrowing on debt, about living outside of your means and thats not the world that I

want to live in. The whole planet is being destroyed. When I was living in California, I start

to discover about the nature around me and its absolutely depressing how the ecosystem is

being destroyed and were destroying all of our food stocks, replacing all the diversity whichhelps us to live, to be healthy, with pests and parasites. This is the legacy were leaving to

our children who are going to pay. Itsnot us who have to pay. We just burn the oil and its

going to run out and thats that. *28:46+

AL: Amir Taaki, I really look forward to hearing more from you over the next couple of days.

I think this is not going to be our only interview. Thank you very much for your time and

good work on this project. [28:56]

AT: Good to meet you. [28:56]

AL: Yeah absolutely. Its good to finally meet you too. *28:58+

AT: Thats wicked. *28:59+

_________________________________________

Adam B. Levine interview with Ron Dembo

RD: Hi, Im Ron Dembo, founder and CEO of Zerofootprint. Prior to that I was the founder

and CEO of Algorithmics (?? Inaudible) company and prior to that (?? Inaudible). [29:26]

AL: Tell me about Zerofootprint. What is it that you do at Zerofootprint? [29:30]

RD: At Zerofootprint, we have a mission to make large scale behavior change feasible, so in

particular, we began with pure environmental issues; things like reduction in carbon on a

large scale but, more recently, weve moved to more of what would be called asustainability agenda, or what we call ita good agenda. That is, health is a very big part of

it as well as environment. Thats based on simply the fact that health and energy and water

and food are all interlinked. You cant really ignore one and leave the other and think

youve really done holistic change. *30:15+

AL: When it comes to holistic change, youre saying that Zerofootprint enables large users

to do this? What does it do that enables large users to do this where they couldnt on their

own? [30:26]

RD: What we do is we link users who do a good action, lets say the action is walking 30mins a day so that you get healthier, with people who are interested in funding that event


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and with products that are good for them. Essentially, we track a life cycle of good. An

example might be a life insurance company that would like to know that you are actually

exercising 30 mins a day because their costs will go down if theyre insuring you, so they

motivate you to do this by giving you Goodcoins for walking 30 mins a day. Whats really

changed recently and why were actually in business, is the fact that you can measure this.

In other words, you can do this on an evidence-based basis. If I track your Nike band, oryour Moves app and it tells me how much youve moved, based on that, I can actually

reward you and then I can link you to other products and services that are good, particularly

for you. We do this through a mechanism called Bitcoin and bitcoins really are a currency

its a parallel currency that works very well in a bartering situation. You walk 30 mins a day

and you can translate that into buying good food, or a reduction on good food. You save

energy and you can get bitcoins and use those to buy devices that will improve your health.

The life cycle of a bitcoin is controlled, as opposed to say the life cycle of any air mile

program. [32:20]

AL: Lets talk about that for a second. It sounds to me like what youre doing is yourequantifying. You talked about the bracelets and things like that. Those are devices that

have motion sensors in them, and things like that, that then are able to quantify... thats

really what youre talking about here at Zerofootprint, I think, is quantifying these events

that you have classified as good, right? [32:40]

RD: In a sense, one of the things that were doing thats really new is were doing

everything on an evidence-based basis. [32:47]

AL: When you talk about an evidence-based basis, this is compared to something where

someone commits to doing something, they sayI will do this and then you sayOK, wellwell pay you in advance for that, rather youre saying Do the work first and use these

various ways to prove that youve done the work and then youll be compensated for the

work that youve actually done. *33:06+

RD: Yeah, so for example, if you think of many governmental programs, what you typically

have is the government comes out with a program to get you to eat well, or walk, or

whatever and those programs are funded up front rather than on the back end. If you walk,

Ill pay you but not otherwise. Whats happened is there is a proliferation of devices out

there now and its growing exponentially. Think of Googles contact lens that will measure

your glucose levels. If you are a diabetic and you keep your glucose levels within certainranges during the day, as measured by your contact lens, we will reward youwe, being the

person who benefits from that. It could be the Department of Health, it could be an

insurance company, and it could be your business, your office. [33:59]

AL: Is that information transparent? In this particular example that youre giving me, do

you think that Google would be able to actually see my glucose levels, or would they just be

able to see that they were within this range? Are you, as the company, doing the

quantifying, doing any sort of filtering like this, or providing any sort of buffer, or is it just

transparency through. [34:21]


15/22

RD: There would be buffers for every device. For example, we use a device now thats on

your iPhone. Its a $2 app that allows you measure whether you walk, bike or run today and

how much you did and that device obviously is model based in their errors. There is no

model that is 100% correct, its really... a big saying in statistics is All models are wrong but

some are useful. This model, to some degree, gives you a fairly good reading on how many

steps you took today. Based on that number of steps, we can sort of calibrate that model tosay a Nike band, which also measures steps. It probably comes up with a different number

and based on those numbersyou can think of it as an index, we can actually determine

how much you walk and reward you for walking enough. [35:13]

AL: OK, cool. When it comes to the rewards on these, I heard you talking about examples

that have people who are kind of already invested in me, right? My insurance company

would care that I am taking steps to not need to use my insurance. That seems like

something they would clearly want to incentivize. Really, it seems like what youre doing

here is youre providing a middle layer where companies, that you have a relationship with

already, want you to do stuff based on that relationship that will make their relationshipwith you better. You, essentially, provide the incentive layer where youre able to measure

those things that those companies would like you to do and then to also compensate for

doing those things. Youre providing an incentive layer here, right? Thats what this

program really is. [35:58]

RD: Beyond that to the insurer, obviously subject to privacy, what we determine at some

level are who are the people who are most susceptible to a particular type of reward, which

is very useful information for say, I dont know, Wholefoods and might want to sell organic

food. [36:17]

AL: OK. [36:18]

RD: If Im someone who is very diligent about walking every day, Im more likely, and I care

about the world, Im more likely to want to buy organic food than if I was just an average

person in the population. [36:30]

AL: Theres also a working element to it too. *36:33+

RD: We do identify whatever good is, so in the example of some of the things that were

involved in now, we have three cities, two of which I can talk about but one of which, in thatcity, were looking at reductions in electricity, gas and water and walking, simultaneously.

You can imagine that if I found a person who was very diligent about reducing their energy

and walk every day now, theyre more likely to be someone who would be interested in

doing good for the world. Some of these selling products that are good for the world would

more likely be able to sell to those people. We provide that niche market. We know who is

interested in good and hence the name Goodcoins. [37:29]

AL: Lets talk about Goodcoins for a second. These are a token and generally, when we talk

about tokens on the Lets Talk Bitcoin show, were talking about full on cryptocurrency that

you can then take and trade for any other cryptocurrency. From the conversation that youand I had earlier, it doesnt sound like thats the case with this one. Can you kind of talk


16/22

about what this coin is? How its different from others? What type of utility you think it

has? [37:52]

RD: There are two aspects that are different. One is the collateral that you want for the

coin is some social good that has occurred... you walked on this day, you reduced energy,

and so on. That, in some sense, backs the coin. The other difference is that the coin is notfungible into other currencies, except other currencies that do good, for example, it might

be fungible into a unit of some charity, or it might be fungible into something thats

inherently good like a device to help you with your health. You can think of it more like a

barter currency. Youre bartering one form of good for another. Its not a currency that you

could imagine that one would speculate with. Imagine if the worst comes to the worst and

someone steals my Goodcoins, well all they can do with them is buy good stuff, so its not

going to be damaging in the worst case. [38:57]

AL: Why would somebody want to have Goodcoins if theyre not exchangeable for other

things, because one can make an argument that stock isnt exchangeable for other thingsand yet stock has value and yet stock can appreciate. What gives Goodcoins value? [39:13]

RD: They are exchangeable for products that are good, for example, I can buy an organic

chicken with 2,000 bitcoins because we being in a society were in might deem that organic

chickens are good for you. [39:28]

AL: Who sets those prices if the market isnt allowed to do that and who would sell you the

chicken? Why would someone sell you a chicken for something that cant be then used for

something else? [39:40]

RD: Imagine Wholefoods wants to sell more chickens and they want to drive you to their

store. Im just using them as an example; we dont have a deal with Wholefoods. They

actually come and put an ad on your site, effectively I think it would look like a coupon and

that coupon would give you some good reason to go into their store, like this month only

youd get 10% reduction on chicken with 2,000 bitcoins. The Goodcoins, in this case, are

marketing currency for Wholefoods but they are your bartering currency as an owner of a

Goodcoin wallet. In that case, its a pure marketing effort on the part of Wholefoods but

because weve deemed, or society has deemed that the organic chicken they sell is good for

you, or the local food they sell is good for the local economy, that bartering is allowed.

Effectively the coins do have value and, in this case, they translate the Wholefoods intomarketing value. In the case of other devices, the person selling that device gets to be

interested in more than one thing that they sell, so its driving you to their store. Thats

where the value comes to be. [40:53]

AL: Its like a rebate system for the entire ecosystem of good as opposed to being centered

on one particular thing. When people are talking about tokens again, in a cryptocurrency

paradigm, when Wholefoods received a Goodcoin, they would then be able to sell that back

onto the market. What happens to Goodcoins when they are spent? [41:14]

RD: They are retired or, in some cases bartered for other good. If Wholefoods wants toreward its employees with Goodcoins which they could then spend on a glucose meter, they


17/22

can do that. In other words, lets say youre Airbnb gives you Goodcoins for every Airbnb

booking, its probable that Goodcoins go through a life cycle of bartering but in each case,

the bartering is for good. [41:48]

AL: Ron Dembo, thanks for sharing your project with us. To learn more, visit their website

atwww.Goodcoins.ca. [41:57]

____________________________________________

ADVERT:

Hey folks, Adam B. Levin here with some updates. Firstly,www.BitcoinPackaging.comis

launched and is ready for orders. You might not think that you need a sleeve of 100

bioplastic drink cups but as Bitcoin becomes more mainstream, more of the businesses youeat at will have a need for this sort of thing. When they ask what they can do with the

bitcoin people pay to them, now you can tell them that all their food service packaging is

available for below their current cost when they spend it withwww.BitcoinPackaging.com.

[42:34]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

This is one of our many attempts to help close the loop. In other news, there are two side

to every story and Mike Hearn, who was mentioned at length during Episode 106 with Amir

Taaki, very much disagrees with some of the things said. Notably, that he collaborated withDutch police, hes working with Circle (hes on the advisory board but isnt an employee)

and also took issue with how Amir described being removed from the Bitcoin security list.

To read his full comments, visitwww.letstalkbitcoin.com/counterpoint. [43:02]

Back to the show! [43:04]

____________________________________________

Stephanie Murphy interview with Ernest Hancock

SM: Im here talking with Ernest Hancock. Ernest is an old friend of mine and he is a radio

show host and a Freedom activist. He runs the popular Freedom website,

www.freedomsphoenix.com. That was a lot of Freedom. [43:19]

EH: Freeeeedom! With an Swww.freedomsphoenix.com. Fortunately, my brother-in-law

lives here and hes a bond raider at Moodys, so you can imagine the interestingconversations we have. [43:32]
http://www.goodcoins.ca/http://www.goodcoins.ca/http://www.goodcoins.ca/http://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/counterpointhttp://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/counterpointhttp://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/counterpointhttp://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/counterpointhttp://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.bitcoinpackaging.com/http://www.goodcoins.ca/


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SM: Very interesting. [43:33]

EH: I got him to commit to coming to an hour tomorrow, so I was hoping to get the best....

the best thing is, is that we get MaidSafe,www.MaidSafe.net. MaidSafe is a distributed, off-

the-grid, totally encrypted, everything, kind of peer to peer internet and I took their Whitepapers and sent them... weve got enough ubergeeks in the libertarian movement and I said

Take a look at this. Is this what I think it is?.... and theyre Yep! It was what we thought,

as young activists back when we were a lot of these revolutionaries age twenty five years

ago, that the internet would go to a... you would have all the information on bulletin boards,

or on your own servers, or distributed amongst peoples computers and empty space on

hard drives. We would be the internet, not this internet service provider that would have

the NSA arms and legs wrapped around their data lines. We thought that was where the

internet was going to go. When it went to the World Wide Web and all this centralized

mind-set, it kind of went down the darkside but there were a lot of people, like David Irvine,

that saw this as a server guy back in the 90s and they started creating their own stuff forthe last seven or eight years. What we did is we saidDo you know what? What were go

ahead and do is were going to go ahead and create this type of distributed internet thats

encrypted and everythings accessible to anybody, encrypted, and I could see that this was a

manifestation of what we were thinking about twenty five years ago. When I had the

ubergeeks and the Liberty movement look at it, if this is what I thought it was (and they

started getting excitedpeople I respected), so I goYep! Im booking my trip to New York,

so here I am. I got to meet them and they were sitting there talking in the forums, so they

introduced me to the reporter from Forbes and they explained why I was so excited about

them. I go to the Forbes and Im like You guys have no idea what... you dont

understand... as much as they didnt understand Bitcoin, theydont understand this newtechnology. I am of the opinion that if this pans out what theyre doing, and theyre

speaking tomorrowthey got added to the program, there is so much interest in them,

they were likeOK. Im bringing my brother-in-law and were going to get a Moodys guy in

here. Hes going to be the smartest guy at the water cooler and its going to be a

presentation of what I think is the future of the internet. Well see if Ernies right... again!

[46:03]

SM: Yeah, Ernies been right before. (Laughter) [46:06]

EH: Its going to be fun. I look forward to promoting... Ive had them on twice. If you justdo a Google search on David Irvine, Ernest Hancock or MaidSafe.net and FreedomsPhoenix,

the two shows we did will come up. One was introduction and the other one was after I had

some of our guys take a look at the technical White papers first and some validation of

whats coming. People should pay attention to that. I think thats going to be awesome!

[46:34]

SM: Youre really excited about MaidSafe. What do you want it for? Why do we need a

decentralized internet? [46:41]

EH: What it offers is the ability at the root to be encrypted for every 1 and 0 that goes overany communication that we do. Thats not just things like Bitcoin, its not just things like
http://www.maidsafe.net/http://www.maidsafe.net/http://www.maidsafe.net/http://www.maidsafe.net/


19/22

being able to download and pirate and do... and everything. Its all 1s and 0s that nobody

gets to see and you can do whatever you want. The thing is, is that they try to couch it as

Yeah, but youd be like buying drugs and getting hookers, or something (not that theres a

problem with that). (Laughter) [47:13]

SM: Nobody does that with cash. [47:16]

EH: Yeah. See, thats my point. The whole thing is, is that its not about what you do with

your freedom, its about having your freedom. For me is that, I dont care what you do with

your freedom, I just want to be free. Its about me, not you. Its like puritans all over the

planet worrying about somebody having fun somewhere. The thing is, is that what it really

is and the power behind it for me, is that when we were at Texas Bitcoin conferenceit was

the same issue. There is not a mechanism by which I can donate to liberty causes

anonymously. Not even with Bitcoin. Im going That is where the power is, that you can

donate unlimited amounts of money to yourself and go over a border to someone else for

some project that you support, and not have any kind of repercussions from the Man.Once that happens, the government just becomes anachronistic and its over. I think its

within... you know, really close on the horizon. I see the storm clouds and I think the Man

does too. [48:13]

SM: You think thats going to happen? The governments going to become, basically,

obsolete as these technologies come out? Theres not going to be a violent revolution... its

a peaceful evolution? [48:21]

EH: No, well it will be violent to them. Theyll make it violent and I mean, theyll be going

around. It is violent and theyre going to have Billy clubs beating the crap out of anybodythat doesnt lick their boots fast enough. *48:29+

SM: Good point, yeah. [48:30]

EH: The violence is already there but its not sought by us. They need the violence to justify

their existence. What happened was is Im like I see that there is the ability for us, you

and I, and anybody, for us to communicate in any way with financial transactions,

communication, biscuit recipes, whatever that the Man doesnt have any kind of ability to

stop it, to regulate it or to socially or economically engineer which one we do or how we do

it. Once that happens, the government becomes anachronistic. Let me give you an examplea year and a half ago, after I saw what Bitcoin represented, my wife Donna and I, we

bought, at an auction, some land in Northern Arizona. We took that land and we saidYou

know what? Were not going to register it with the County Recorder. What were going to

do is were just going to keep it, transfer it from... have him take possession in a Trust, then

sell it to a Trust that we did and then not file it, waiting for BitLand, BitParcel, BitSomething

and we register it with that. Now, well pay the taxes. I dont want to deal with that issue

but what I want to do is not register it with the government, I register it with the planet of a

blockchain that we recognizeYep! Thats the GPS coordinates of your whatever... *49:48+

SM: Right. [49:49]


20/22

EH: ...who will enforce it, who will recognize it. I dont care. First youve got to be able to

do it. When you do it, what does that mean? You dont need a County Recorder anymore

because Im going How do you recognize a property right? First, youve got to define it,

then whos going to enforce it? Well, the government doesnt enforce it. They just side

with the banks no matter what and foreclosure of whatever and who pays them enough.

Im just going They already lost their credibility, so now Imlooking for another way todemonstrate how this can eliminate the County Recorder because that was a roadblock in

my own mind. Once I saw that this could be done, all of a sudden Im going Awww baby!

Its all over. You just start chipping away at allthe things that government say that they

have in my service. Well, they dont. This was just another example. MaidSafe allows that

on like everything. Any 1s and 0s on communication over Outernet, which is the cube sats.

They just launched in February, thirty three small satellites and boom! Theyre done.

[50:51]

SM: Amazing! The future is here. [50:53]

EH: Done! Done! Done! [50:55]

SM: (Laughter) Youre also really excited about BitShares, right? *50:57+

EH: What happened was Joby Weeks and Stephanie are good friends and they did their

neon energy drink. They sponsored an event right by Wall Street. There they have fifty feet

from the opening to Wall Street... the building there, where they have people come in with

suitcases of cash and theyre buying Bitcoin and selling, and back and forth. Theyre doing

and buying shares in companies. I talked to the guys in BitShares here and wanted to have

them come on the show and everything and explain to me how much more... its notsecurity, its just more honest in having the ability of a transparent ownership of companies.

Its just another... making government anachronistic. I dont need to have them regulate it.

They cant regulate. Its totally outside of that and who represents the credibility and the

validity of my ownership in some company using BitShares? Well, they do. If they dont do

it, then I dont want to have anything to do with them anymore. Its going past Wall Street.

I love it that they did it right next to it because Im going I can do this and own a piece of a

company without having to file an IRS thing. I dont have to show my capital gains of how

much I own and put it on the stock purchase, so if Im running for office and Ive got a

declare this claim, whatever. [52:16]

SM: Without being an accredited investor too because right now, small investors cant

really buy shares in companies. [52:22]

EH: It bypasses all social and economic engineering when they sayWell, its to protect

you. You should have limits on this or you can only do so much of that. [52:33]

SM: Right. Its for your own good. *52:35+

EH: I dont want them to even have that. If I screw up, guess what? I get edumacated

pretty damn quick when I lose my money. [52:41]


21/22

SM: Right. [52:42]

EH: Thats the best regulator, is the free market. When I talk to people that are so much in

the system and theyre so concerned about Well, somebodys going to get screwed. I go

Good! That would be a lesson learned wont it? *52:53]

SM: Right. [52:54]

EH: Thats where the regulation is, is from the learning. There are going to be solutions out

there. Weve got to get the nanny state out of our hair, so that all these things will blossom

and Im seeing it happen. They had an event here where they had a bunch of pro-regulators

and this guy was an aid to Chuck Schumer, this guy was an attorney for government, or

whatever and someone who was a lobbyist for the Canadian government. Theyre all

Well, youve got to have... so that its approved by government. Im going Why? One, you

dont understand that what youre advocating, you cant regulate the blockchain. Thats the

point. Youre talking about the third party people but they dont ever make that point. ImgoingWhat youre advocating for is a different cryptocurrency that can be regulated.

Fine, knock yourself out but they dont advocate that because they know nobody will do it.

They wont use it. Theyre trying to somehow get some kind of tentacles or just our brain

around the idea of voluntarily allowing for regulation in Bitcoin. The argument isWell,

youll be trading Bitcoin at Starbucks. I go Good! I thought that was what it was going to

be anyway. [54:05]

SM: Right. [54:06]

EH: I dont understand your point. Later, after the event, some people got asked thatquestion and made that point. A bunch of people saidThank God, somebody made that

point and then the attorneys on the committee I had lunch with, Mark Edge and I are sitting

there talking to this guy and Im going You know, I dont think you guys are being very

forthright with the people that what youre really advocating. What youre talking about,

you cant do. Thats the point. Im looking for... not kind of hacks in the system, or kind of

fernangling, or I can do it better, or you got the just bug and its fourteen strokes on your

keyboard, I want something that I dont have to have on their system, that hacks the entire

thing by just avoiding it. www.MaidSafe.net. You keep an eye on that and youll see what

Im talking about. *54:53+

SM: Yeah. Very cool. Ernie, thanks a lot. Anything you want to add? [54:56]

EH: Freedoms the answer. Whats the question? (Laughter) *55:00+

SM: (Laughter) I love it. You can find your website atwww.freedomsphoenix.comand your

radio show is there. [55:08]

EH: Declare your independence with Ernest Hancock! Oh, oh and you dont need me, you

can do it yourself! Ah? I declared my independencesee how easy it was? (Laughter)

[55:16]
http://www.maidsafe.net/http://www.maidsafe.net/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/http://www.maidsafe.net/


22/22

SM: (Laughter) I love it! Thank you so much Ernie. [55:19]

____________________________________________

CREDITS:

Thanks for listening to Episode 107 of Lets Talk Bitcoin.

Content for this episode was provided by Emmanuel of BitCredits, Brian ofIdeaNotion, Michael Perklin, Amir Taaki, Ron Dembo, Stephanie Murphy, Ernie

Hancock and Adam B. Levine

This episode was edited by Adam B. Levine and Denise Levine Music for this episode was provided by Jared Rubens and General Fuzz

Any questions or comments? [email protected].

Have a good one! [55:48]
mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]:[email protected]:[email protected]

Documents

Let's Talk Bitcoin - Ep 107