902 [ASSEMBLY.]

very quickly and developing more rapidly.I refer to lire eats. The %- were introducedto' a large extent to cope with the rabbitsaind to some extent they do so. but hither-to thle rabbits have not been sufficientlyplentiful. and conisteuetly the cats havehad to fall back to a large extent on birds.I 1111 afraid that unless ile rabbits ini-prove and extend in numbers, which, Godforbid they should,' eit her thle cats willhave to0 be destroyed or the niumuher Ofbirds will. I hope every effort wvill beiuade to preserve the birds and both theannuals and the flora and fatuna, I amipleased to see that there are two speciesincluded in the schedule, thle emuts and thledingoes. The eanus are exceedingly des-tructive onl large sheep stationis on thefeiices and they dto damage to well.; andtanks and arrangements set out for ani-nials of greater value thait themselves. Ithink titey will, to a very large extent, lookafter thems;elves, but no one has any-, con-ception of the damage they do until theyaire seen on a. sheep station to thenumber of 100 or 1.50 coming dlown at a.time. In a season like the past when theydied ufr starvation, indeed it would havebeen far more charitable for themto be peacefully killed and to make thlebest use of their skins. I1 believe it isopen fur people to hunt them and get theskills: that will possibly minimise them.As to thle dingo. it does nut require iniydefence onl my part because it is a pest,but it would be unwise to destroy dingoesaltogether. thIerefore; in company withemus, I shouild keep) a niumber of spei-inens in the inagniticent Zoological gar-dtelis which we have and which m y friendSir- Winthr op H7ackett has done so muchto lpopnlarise. If they were kept thereout of liarni or inl some enclosure, then Iagree wiAh I\P.1iesse that they shoudniot be allowed to (lie out altogether. Ido0 not know that I nieed say anythingmore ill Connection Will, the B3ill. but itcommnends itself to tile good sense ofmembers, id I have thle greatest plea-%ture in supporting the second reading.

On motion by Hon. E. M. Clarke, de-bate adjournted.

PAPERS PRESENTED.

By the Colonial Secretary: I, Copy ofjetty regulation No. 2.5; 2, By-law of theVictoria Park local board of health.

hlouse adjourned at 6.0 p.m,

lgslattvc eeeb~Wednesday, 71A August, 1912.

FiLGrPaper presented92Elis: Shearers, Shed hands, and Agrioultaml

Labourers' Accommodation, li. 902Ira mwaya Purchase, SR,...........24Prevention of Cruelty to Anilmals, SR . 024Health Act Amendment, 3R. 924Excess (1910-li), Returned 924North tFremantie Municlpal Tramways, Amend-* ment Returned............924

*Nedlanda Park Teraways, AmendmentReturned...............124

Election of Senators Amendment, I 924inter-State flestitute Persons Relief, lit. 924

Return: Uniform Contracts, police and railway 903Gascoyne Vermin Board, advance and rates 903

Papers:- Brwoc Murder ease. .... .... 905Motion: Australian Rlag for schoolis 910

Dairy Inspectors' reports. ........ 919)Rnaiway construction, contracts to expedite 0124

The SPEAKE]R took thle Chair at 4.30p.mi., anid read prayers.

PAPER. PRE SENTED.By tie Mlininster- for Lands: Report

Of Advisory Board on the proposed colt-neotinlg railways between the G rea tSon th irn and South-Wes tern Railways(ordered oin motion by Mr. E. 13, John-ston).

BIL1A,-8HEBARER 5R, SHED HANDS,A'ND AGRICULTURAL LABOUR-ERIS' ACCOMMUNODATION.

introduced by 1.r. McDonald and read11 fi rsiJ timae.

902

(7 AUGUST, 1912.] 0

Rt1TuRN,\ - UNIFORM CONTRACTS.I-OIACE AND RAILW-AY.

Mi% B. J, STUBBS (Subiaco) moved-That a return be laid upon the Table

,of the fouse skoting-), The termsand conditions governing the contractsfor the manufacture of police and rail-ay Lillifo rtn-s. 2, 'he names of thre

present contractors, the price per urn-form of the present contracts, the dateoni which the present contracts expire.3, The rates of ivages paid to the work-ers engaged in the manufacture of theseuniforms, the percentage of female tomale labour so engaged, also the per-centiayt of Jurenite to adult labour soengaged.Hon, W. C. ANO\ WIN (Honorary '\in-

ister) :There would he no (objection tolaying the papiers on the Table of theH ouse. The hon. member, however, mighthave given some reasons for asking fortine return. However, the informationwouIl be obtained. He was doubtful atfirst in regard to the third paragraph oftine raotion, hut, so far a.s the terms andconditions of the contracts and the namesut' tine contractors were c-oncernedl therewould not be mulch difficulty. Theremiah11t be somie difficulty in regard to as-eertnining the percentage of female tomavle labour engaged, but every effortwould be put forward, to secure the in.formation tine hon. member desired.

Question put and passed.

RE TVUR Q-QAS COYNE VERM,]INBOARD. ADVANCE AND RATES.

'Ron. H. 13. LEFROY (Moore) mioved-That a returns be laid upon the Table

Of tine House sh~owin-i. Thre amoun1ttof money advanced to the Ciascoyneflstricl V'ermin Board wuder the Act.2. The amount of interest due per an-nunin to the Glovernmnent. 3, The num-ber and names of ratepayers under theAct and the amount of rates dute perannum by each rat epayper. 4, Thenames of those ratepayters who have notpaid rates and tile amounts due in eachcase.

was reprkesen ted to the Government thatrabbits were encroaching in the Glascoyne(listriet and settlers asked for assistanceto enable them to fence off the vermin.An Act was passed called the Vermin Act,and it camne into) law early in 1909, andgave the Government power to advancea sum of money for the erection of rab-bit-proof fences by the settlers, and forthe appointment of a board to collectrates to pay interest and sinking- fund.The board in the first instance was ap-lpointett by the Government. and when themachinery provided by the Act was setin motion the board was elected by theratepayers. -It had been represented tohim by: persons interested in this countrythai the Tates wVere not being regularlypaid and that, ini consequence, the boardhad found it necessary to increase them,to ena-ble themn to pay interest and sink-ing fund. Tt would be obvious to hon.members that it "'as certainly unjustthat. this paymnent should remain on theshoulders of, lie would not say exactly, afew, but at any r~ate payment should reston thie shoulders of everyone concerned.The Act distinctly provided that the ratesshouild be paid forthwith after they hadbeen impomsed. If the payment was notenforced it was an injustice to those whowere paying, and it w% as correct that therates had had to be raised in order tomnake up the deficiency which accruedthrough neglect on the part of a numberof ratepayers. It would be agreed that thatwas unjust. In order to clear uip thequiesrionli e desired to obtain the returnand hoped the Government would be ableto let the House have it. It might takesome little time, but it would only meanthe Glovernment askingl the vermin boardin the Gascroyne district to send the re-turnl in: members would then be able tosee exactly the position.

Mr. Underwood : Who are the rate-paye~rs who have not paid?

Boll. H. B. LEFROY: The owners ofstock, They had to payv not only on theamiount of land, but also the stock they,held.

For the information of hon. members he The Minister for Lands : They pay onwould point out that a few years ago it the land they hold.

903

904 f[ASSEMBLY.]

Hon, Hf. B. LEFROY: Yes, hut theirvoting power was arranged according tothe number of stock they held.

The 'Minister for Lands :The ratingis entirely on the land.

Hon. IL. B. LEFROY :That was so,but the number of votes that each personlhad was determined by the amiount ofstock held, up to a limit of four votes.He hoped the Government would not oh-ject to the mnotion. If there were peopleliving in the district who felt that theywere suiff ering an injustice, it would he aswell that the matter should see the tightof day.

.The MINISTER FOR LAND3S (Hon.T. H. Bath) :So far as the Governmentwere concerned the question of supplyingthe return asked for in the first and secondparagraphs rested 'with them, but in re-gard to the third and fourth paragraphs,which dealt with matters concerning thevermin hoard, the information could onlybe secured by the courtesy of the board.There would be no objection to the infor-mation asked for in the first and secondparagraphs being supplied, and the Goy-ernment hand taken steps; to communicatewith thie board in the hope of secuiringthe other information. Tlhe verminboard were the body to whom the appli-cation should be made ia the first in-stance. In regard to the question ofrating and- the payment of rates in thisdistrict, the position was that the holdershad had a pretty bad time during thepast two years, and representations hadbeen made to the Government by theboard, which had resulted in the Govern-ment extending the timie for payment ofthe principal from twenty years to thirtyyears in order to give the board an op-portunity of lig-hteniing- the burden to theindividual holders of stock in the district.Onl looking into the question he was con-vinced that the system of rating was ab-solutely unjust, i.e., rating at so much perhundred acres, because it meant that theman in possession of the pick of the pas-toral country paid no more, although hisstock carrying capacity was greater, thanlthe man far hack who was able to earr'less stock. This question of the basis4 ofrating was one he was investigating at

the present time with a view to ascertain-ig if it could not be placed on a more

equitable hasis, fair to all. Apart frombthat. there Was no objection to makingavailable the information which the Gov-erment had at their disposal, and if thefurthier information asked for in para-graphs 3 and 4 was supplied by thle boardhie would he pleased to place that also attile disposal of thle hon. member.

M1r. M2%cDONALD (Gascoyne) -Thleinformation asked for in the first twoparagraphs of the motion was containediii the report given last session by theAuditor Gleneral,' namely, the amnountloaned, the amount of interest due, andalso the amount of sinking fund to be paideach year. As the Minister for Lands hadstated, the seasons had been very badoyer a large portion of the country en-closed by this fence, and on that account,in. one or -two instances, not only werethe rates Diot paid to the vermin board,but the Lands Department had been askedto allow a remnission of thle rents for theyear. So far as could be seen, nothingwas to be gained by publishing the namesof the defaulting ratepayers, or of otherratepayers either. The payment did notI egt on the shoulders of a few. Sometime ago the chairman of the hoard hadinterviewed the Minister for Lands witha request that the time for which the loanwas given, namely, twenty years, shouldbe extended to thirty year;, and tile rea-son given was that, owing to the bad sea-sons, many of the ratep)ayers could notpay the ra' tes due to the board. Not-withstanding that fact, and althouigh therequest was complied with by the Min-ister, no sooner were the rates due thanthle board began to press for payment.The mnember for Roebourne would corro-borate that statement, because most ofthie persons who were defaulting were inhis electorate. The rating, as the Minis-ter had pointed out, was exactly a suimequal to the rent, and although the mem-ber for Moore had miade the suggestionthat it was raised on the basis of thestock carried, the hope of the small hold-ers was that some more equitable maeansof rating would be found than that ofma kingl the rate equal to the rent. Some

904

[7 Avous;, 1912.)90

sort of stock tax should he imposed toenable the small holders to pay theirrents to thme ver-min board.

Holt. H_ B. I4EFROY (in reply) - TheMinister for Lanids was deserving ofthanks for agreeing to supply the returnasked for. Of course, one couild fuillyunderstand the position that it was neces-sary? for the Minister to take up, and thatnothing further could be done titan he handkindl-, agreed to do.

Question put and passed.

PAP ERS-BROOMKE MURDERCASE.

A1r. NAKSON (Greenough) moved-That there be laid upon the Table of

rte Hlouse all papers relating to thetrial, conviction, and commutation ofsentences in the case of Thomnas Bilebbaend Goudido Gales tro, found guiltyon June 20 last of the murder of Coin-stable Fletcher.

He said:- When I gave notice of thismotion the Attorney General, in reply toa question by me, stated that bie was notprepared to treat it as formal. I trust,however, that, although hie does not re-gard the motion as a formal one, it is nothis intention to oppose thle giving of thisinformation, because I cannot conceivethat the making available of thle informa-tion sought for could in any way be pre-judicial to the public interest, but, ratheron the contrary, the giving of that in-formnatipnt is desirable. The crime forwhich the two men mentioned in themotion were found guilty was committediiv a comparatively remnote portion of theState, and, so far as I have been able togather, the most mneag-re particulars of ithave been published in the metropolitannewspapers. In the ordinary course wherea trial on a charge of so serious a naturetakes place in thle capital, -we can rely onthe daily Press to present a comparativelyfull report of the evidence and all theSalient featutres Of thle calse. Ini thle pre-sent instance, however, as far as I anaware, there w.as little or no report of thetrial in the metropolitan newspapers, andtherefore, the evidence taken at that trial,upon which onle necessarily must base one's

opinion as to whether the action of theExecutive in commuting the capital sell-renee was or was not justified, is not avail-able in order to enable one to form anopinion. The object of this motion ispurely to obtain information, It is not inlanly sense of the word condemnatory. Ishould he the very last, I hope, to con-demn Ministers for whatever advice theymight give in re'gard to the exercise ofthe Jprerogaltive of mecy unless T had hadanl opportunity of going very. closely intothe case and hiad the facts .before me tosatisfy me that. it was niy ditty to make apublic protest. But inl thlis instance I amlnot inl that p~osition. I ama prepared, attime present stage, at any rate, to presumethat the advice given by Ministers was ad-vice warranted by all the circumstances,but wre cannot shut our eyes to the factstha-lt this crime was committed in a part ofthe State where there is a large colouredpopulation in proportion to the whitelpopulation, and that the victim of thecrime *was also a police constable. T amnot in a position to state whether hie methis death while in time execution of hisduty Or not; that is a point which thepapers, if they are made available, mustnecessarily disclose, bnt it is obvious7 tak-ing time local circumistances into accont,that this case is of somewhat morethan thle usual interest, especially whenwe also bear in mind the fact to which Ihave already made reference, that therehas been very little information furnishedthrough the usual channels of thle publicPress in regard to it. I am wveil awarethat a charge has been made againstMinisters in [The Sunday1 Times that thecapital sentence was not carried out inthis ease because three members of theGovernment were on principle opposedto capital punishment.

Mr. Underwvood: A good principle too.

Mr. NANSON.: I do not in any wayassociate myself with that charge. I havenot the information which would justifymne in doing so, and I should be veryloth indeed ever to believe a charge ofthat kind against responsible Ministers ofthe Crown or to publicly formulate it ex-cept on the strongest presumptive evi,dence, and that evidence I hove not in my

905

906 ASSEMBLY.1

possession; but the fact of a charge ofthat kind baring been made in tile publicPress does, I think, lend additional weightto thle expression of opinion put forwardin this motion, that these papers shouldbe laid on the Table. I may say, how-ever, that thie motion had been draftedand that it was, my intention to give noticeof it bef ore I had ever seen that article,and indeed, quite regardless of whatcriticism had been indulged in, because Iwished to satisfy myself of the facts ofthe case, and wished to have an oppor-tunity of reading the file; and, althoughI have no doubt the Attorney Generalwould willingly have given me access tothe file if I had applied to him, still Ithink the better course, when there is noobjection to laying the papers on theTable, is that one should move a formalmotion, as if it is carried, the paperscan be made more generally availablethan if thle more restricted way of com-municating information were adopted. Ido not think it is necessary to say morein support of the motion. The informa-tion sought will, I take it, consist mainlyof the judge's notes at the trial and theusual formal papers. I can only con-elude as I began by expressing the hopethat the Attorney General, whether hefeels that it is -in opportune time to makea statement in regard to the ease, orwhether lie does not, will at any rate notoppose the laying of these papers; on theTable.

Hon. FRANK W[LSON (Sussex) : Isecond the motion.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hoil.T. Walker):; On general grounds I haveanl objection to laying papers of thisKind on thle Table unless very strong rea-sons are shown in support of that course,hecanse it is a sort of double punishmentto anylbody to have their ease threshedout in public, followed by ostracism, anda condemning of them to contumely duringthe time they are serving their sentence.Moreover, every person who goes into theFremantle gaol for whatever offence, hasrelatives and possibly innocent friendswho are harrowed by any undue publicityin regard to the prisoner after once hehas been sentenced. In the cause of lii-

ianity-I think T am justified in uisingthat termi-we aire not anxious to paradcour vindictiveness or in our: administrationof calm justice in the punishment of of-fenders, we arc not anxious to bruit itabout in thle world. Furthermore, in manyof these matters there are documents ofa more or less confidential character, andI do not know that these should be thrownopen to the eyes of anl idle or curiousworld. For instance in these pjapers I'have a confidential letter from the judgeon the matter. I deemed it my duty toconsult the juidge. as is the usual. course,and he gives me then, not anl official docu-mient, but a confidential document, and ad-vice whioli enables thbe Executive to cometo some conclusion, a reliable conclusion,based. o]l thle word and testimlony of theJudge who presided at the trial. T aid-mnit frankly there are uinsual reasons inthis case for making thle documents pub-lic. It is quite true,. as the hon. membersaid, that the reports of this trial atBroomne have been exceedingly meagre, sosparse as to he misleading. 'In addition1to there having been iio report of a re-liable or lengthy detailed chiaracter, therehans been anl attack which has been re-ferred to by the hon. member in movingthe motion, an attack by The SundayTimes, one -that it is difficult to under-stand fromn a paper that claims to havesome influence in the community. Withyour permission, Mr. Speaker, I ventureto refer to that attack which was madeoiltthe 28th July, and opens as follows-

The assassins-"The assassins," f use the words twice.

of Constable Fletcher are to chest thegallows. The Executive Council, in itswisdom, has decided to commute thedeath sentences passed on two cowardlycut-throats for the wilful and unpro-voked murdeT of anl unarmed. whiteinan.

I admit anything of that kind would mnakethe whole community shudder if it weretrue. A paper-no matter how decent orindecent the paper may be-circulateswidely and is read.

Mr. Underwood: They take it as awork of imagination,

406

[7 AUGUST, 1912. 00

Xtr. George: It is very mild to what itwas years ago.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: It wasdeserved then. Let rae continue-Rilbeeba, thle actual stabber, is to be

imprisoned for "life," which means, inplain English, twenty years. Cole-stromn, his accomlIice in crime., wilInominatly serve a ten years' sentence,but allowing for the usual "good con-duct" relaission it will really amountto seven years and a half. In the or-dinary course of eveats one of the mur-derers will get his freedom. in 1919 and-the other in 1927, and there is alwaysthe chance of a further remissionshould a Labour politician interest him-self in their favour or a tender-heartedAttorney General decide npon an ac-celoration of a. "humanitarian" policywhich is steadily emptying the gaols.Meantime. the mutilated body of thlemuan they murdered will lie moulderingiti the grave; his widow, perhaps, willexperience want as well as sorrow

I do not know that T need go on with thatharrowing portion. It goes further on tosay-

Nor was there any appeal for clem-ency fromn the public at Broome. Theonly petition that caime from Broomewas an earnest petition that the mnur-derers might be hanged at Broonme gaol,as a warning to thle "Silent,. sullen peo-pie" who swarm in that part of thieCommonwealth. Why, then, has theprerogativke of mercyV been exercised?Simply bernse the majority of the Ex-ecutive Coumu~il are soft-hearted (andsoft-headed) nji "women who aimn atbeing considered humane and only suc-ceed in being unutterably foolish.

There are two columns of that kind ofstuff. I will not insult the House fur-ther by reading such absolute rubbish.DI is rubbish because it is a statementwithout a scintilla of evidence or fact tosupport it, nlot one fact underlies this:)rtiele.

Mr. S. Stubbs: Why did you not gofor thern for libel?

The ATTORNEY GENERAL:. Be-cause thle Government were dealt with intheir corporate capacity as the Executive,

[32)

and the libel, if on anybody, is on his E1x-cellency the Governor, and we were pre-vented from taking any course of thatkind. The truth is it is generally speak-ing better, and one can afford to ignoreattacks of this ind, because the generalpub lic are beginning to understand themotives behind. They know the attacksare not just, but party tirades of one ortwo ambitions embyro p~oliticians.

Air. George: Give us the namnes.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL; Ofwhom ?

Mr. George: The embryos.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: It is

not necessary. I desire to draw the at-tendion of the House to thle real facts ofthle case, amid] I do not know that I cando htter-t rather question whether Iam altogether justified in reading thejudge's confidential letter to me, but Ipresume I may mnake a breach in the h6peof his forgiveneLss ill the matter-. JI do itbecause a note of this confidential charac-ter is really a resume of the evidence,and more clearly and succinctly -states theease than couldf be stated by reading theevidence iii detail. The judge thusstates-

W1ith regard to the native prisonersCharlie, Young Sambo and Roger

There were the natives then with them.as well as the prisoner Biagie, I haveno obseirvation to make save this, thatthe crime, of which they were severallyconvicted, was of the usual categoryand for which so far as I know thepolicy Of the Government of the dayhas been to commute the sentence toimprisonment for life. They were aUcold-blooded tribal murders. With re-gard to Bilbeeba and Candido-

The two parties referred to in this scand-atlus article amid in the motion.

I think that the Governor would be-warranted in Commuting the sentencealso to one of imprisonment for "aterin of years. Thle killing wans the out-come of a row onl the verandah of theRoebuck Bay hotel at 11 p.m. The evi-dence showed that Thomas Bilheebahad been drinking and was intoxi-cated. Ile haed, during the earlier partof the evening, a drink or two with the

007

908 [A SSEMBLY.]

barmaid at the Pearters' Rest hotel.Later on the samne evening he met heron the verandah of the Roebuck Bayhotel where she was accompanied bythe barnian (Freeman). He went uipto hier mid spoke to her. She resentedhis add~ressing hier and Freeman pro-ceeded to give effect to her resentmentby p-ttting Thomas off the verandah.A row ensued in which the other pris-oner Caudido came to Thomas' assist-ance. Fletcher, the m-urdered man,hearing the row came out of the bar,and instead of using his efforts to putan end to thle row he "sailed in" as thewitness expressed it, and gave the manThomas Bilheeha a severe handling. Inthe meantime the barman Freeman wastreating Candid-o similarly. Dnring thefight Bilhecba drew. a pocket-knife andstabbed Fletcher. Upon Fletcher call-ing out lie was stabbed the fightstopped and the accnsed and all otherMalays or coloured nien near by werearrested. The white men were clearlythe aggressors. They were sober andthe deceased was a policeman whose

.duty it was to put a stop to fights andnot to "sail iii" as hie did. Candid;o isin law liable to the death sentence be-cause of the view the jury took of thefacts;. He, however, took no furtherpart in the row then the fight withFreeman. Had Bilheeha been foundguilty of manslaughter Candido muisthave been acquitted. I think this caseaccentuates the view I have often ex-lpressecd that now that the Code hasmade a distinction between wilful mur-der and murder a distinction should bemade in the sentence. A Judge nowhas no option, anid if he were given theoption I feel sure that in many in-stances the Executive would be savedthe trouble of inquiry.

I do iiot need to quote the papers fur-ther.

Hon. Frank Wilson: What was the

verdict. murder?

Thle ATTORNEY GE NERAL: Theverdict was murder. There was no helpbut to sentence them to death. The judgeindicates here that had there been a dis-

tinction in the sentences between wvilfullnMurder and muirder I le Executive wouldhave been spared the necessity of dealiingwvith the case. I do uot think- T need laythe papers on the Table now.

Mr, S. Stubbs: Were they both con-victed of mUrder?

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes.Because the law is that if T am with aperson who, as in this case, stabs another,in an illegal action in a fight or row, itin the course of the illegality one of thepatties commits murder the other man is,guilty also, although there is no collusion,If he coniuiits a miurder while doing theillegal act, the other participating in theillegal act oonstructively has eommitt"the murder also. Candido did no morethaii fight wvith Freeman, still he is guiltyof murder.'

Mr. S. Stubbs: That law requires alter-ing surely.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thatis whant the judge is pointing, out. I hoperI shall be given an opportunity during thetenure of office of this Government ofaltering the law in this respect. I do notthink I ought to lay the pap~ers generallyon the Table. Now that the facts areknown, I feel convinced that what thme,judge says may be well put in comparisonwith what The Sunday Times says. Thereis no sentimentality iii the conduct of theExecutive, but the ease was decided on timefacts submitted. Does the lion, memberwant the papers now?

Mr. Nanson: I can see no objection tothem being placed on the Table.

The ATTORNEY GWNERAL: Then Iwill lay them on the Tahle.

Hon. FRANKi WILSON (Sussex):- Iam quite with the Attorney Gemeil thatin many instances it is not desirable orsuitable to make public papers of thisdescription, but I must say I can hardlyfollowv his intention as outlined in hisopening- remarks; because he had a moreor less confidential letter from a judge hecould not table the papers.

The Attorney General: Not withoutgood reason.

Hon. FRANK WILSON: And thien liedecided to read the letter to the House.

908

[7 Auoosr, 1912.]00

The M1inister for Lands: He said hebad no doubt about reading the letter,but in tabling the papers.

Ron, FRANK WILSON: Abouttabling the papers.

The Minister for Lands; Not on thatground.

Hon. FRANK WVILSO'N: On that-ground particularly. Now we have hadthe letter fromt the judge who tried the,ease read and if, as I suppose it does,that letter practically summarises theevidence which was broug-ht before thecourt and these men were convicted ofmurder, I think every hon. member inthe Chamber is satisfed that it was acase of manslaughter clearly punishableby imprisonment and not by the deathpenalty. We all desire to protect thefeelings of'the friends of any unfor-tu-nate man who is condemned uinder' ourlaws, as mentioned by the Attorney Gen-eral, but we have a duty far above thatto consider also, and that is to see thatthere is no miscarriage of justice. I canquite understand the desire of the peopleresiding in that far portion of the Stateto have the law put into effect whenevera sentence has. been justly given uinderthat law in order 'that life and propertymany he duly protected. At the sametime, this seems to me to be a case wherethere was- a raw or a fight, and the con-stable, in the exercise of his ditty, in hisjudgment, undoubtedly, -thought that hewas justified in entering into it and tak-ing the law practically in his own hands,and administering a. castigation himself.Unfortunately, he made a mistake; butbecause one of the persons in that rowhappened to have a knife on him andused it effectively, it does not make itan act of murder, as 1. understand it.We have had the judge's letter read, andI do not suppose the evidence can giveany further light on the subject. I donot know whether my colleague stillwishes to have the papers placed on theTable, but I shall advise him that therewill be no harm in having the evidencea1S Well as the judge's letter made public.

Mr. UNDERWOOD) (Pilbara) : Thegreat feature of this question is the un-desira-bility of Asialics in this country,

and we have to face the fact that,. whilewe have themi here, we are likely to havethis sort of thing- happening.

Ron. Frank WVilson: You have themalso amnong white men.

Mr. UND~ERWOOD. With white men),we treat them as white men, but theleader of the Opposition wants thesemen to he treated, not as white men, butas black men; and that, apparently, iswhat The Sunday Times wants also. Thefact is that while they are here theyshould be treated uinder oar laws. Ithas been said that there was a requestfrom the residents of Broome that thesemen should be hanged publicly atBroome. I doubt very much whetherflint request wvas made; hut, if it was, itwas certainly not made by representativepeople at Broome, and it does not sayvery much for the people who made it.I am sure that in Australia we have gonepast -the times of these brutal hangings,and past the times to which some mem-hers would like to go back. I would feelsomewhat disgusted if any representa-tive body made such a request. I cer-tainly have no very great appreciationfor those members of the House whodesire to see that system reintroducedwhlich our forefathers knocked out almosta cenitury ago. I consider the AttorneyGeneral has given a full reply to thecriticism levelled against him. I feelsorry for the es-Attorney General. Iconsider -he was looking for ammunitionand has found a blank-it is not even ashell, it is not even an empty cartridgeease. The hon. member was, no doubt,going to make political capital out ofthis, and it seems rather sad, seeing thepaucity of political capital he has, thathe could not get a ]ittle bit out of it.

Mr. NANSON (in reply) : I do notthink that the hon. miember -was altogethergenerous in his remarks with reference topolitical ammunition. However, onescarcely, perhaps, expects generosity fromthe hon. miember, or even that he shouldbe able to credit a political opponent withacting from a sense of public duty. Ihave tic desire in this matter to procureamnmunition in order to shoot at the Gov-ernment. There is plenty of ammunition,

909

910 [A:S SEMBLY.]

if I wish to go in search of it. I hopeat any rate I shall never bring intoparty politics, if it can possibly beavoided, the question of dealing withthe administration of Justice and theexercise of the Royal prerogative ofmnercy. I aim perfectly prepared to give tothe present Administration, in their ad-vice as to the exercise of that preroga-tive, the credit of exercising their respon-sibitly in the most conscientious mannerpossible. I therefore carefully refrainedin my opening remarks from uittering asingle word that would suggest that I gavecredence to the criticism that had beenlevelled against the Administration. Myrule all through, where accusations arebrought, is not to believe an accusationuntil I have bad a" oportunity of weigh-ing (he facts upon which the accusationis based; and, as I said in my openingremarks. I had no knowledge of thesefacts. Now, this afternoon we have hadread by the A ttorney General a letter fromthe judge who tried the case, and I cannotbelieve for a moment that Mr. JusticeBlurnside would take exeption to the pub-lication of that letter. I will go furtherand say that, on the facts set forth in thatletter, tine Executive would have been tak-ing a very heavy responsibility if they haddisregarded the opinion of the judge. As-suming, as I think we should assume, that(he letter carefully sets forth in concise-form the salient facts brought forth atthe trial, I believe the Government actedais any other body of men similarly placedwould have acted. There is a furtherconsideration, whether, in view of the read-ing of that letter, the official papersshould be placed on the Table. I do not forone moment contend that I feel so stronglyon the ncessity of laying these papers onthe Table as i did before the letter wasread; and, therefore, if the AttorneyGeneral takes strong exception to layingthe papers onl the Table, I should notthink of taking the matter to a division;,hut, inl view of all the circumstances, inview of the charges that have been made,and in viewv of the fact that one paperon the file, to the publication of which ex-ception might perhaps be taken, has beenread to the House, then T think a goodpurpose will he served by making the

judge's notes of the evidence available.Of course no precedent is created. I cansee perfectly well the objection that anyGovernment may have to a course thatmay seem to indicate that in all capitalcases the papers should, as a matter ofcourse, go on the Table. Indeed, in manycases there is no need for it, because,as I pointed out in my previous remarks,the facts are so fully reported that onecan form an opinion, and if other factsare undisclosed, there is a means of ob-taining publicity for these facts. Fromthe earliest times in Englishi historyParliament has rightly considered, andasserted its opinion, that although itcould not, perhiaps, interfere except bystatute wvi(h the prerogative of mercy, yetit was a suibject that was entitled to becriticised by Parliament, and Onl whichParliament was entitled to seek for in-formation. On that ground, unless thereare some strong reasons why the factsshould not be given-and 1 understandfrom the Attorney General that in) thisease there is no reason other than thatwhich he has read-there cao he no oh-jection to making t hese facts known. Fur-thiermore I assume that this case has pro-hably excited a considerable amount ofinterest in the northern portions of theState. I cannot say definitely that thishas occurred, because I have not heen inconmmunication with the people up thereon the subject. but probably the inaakingavailahle of the judge's notes will he wel:corned. At any rate, if we can judge fromHis H-onouir's letter, the making of thepsenotes available wilt only serve to confirmthe belief that the Executive were justi-fied in the action they took. I trust, there-fore, the Attorney General will not op-pose the laying of the papers on the Table,and that the mbition will be permnitted topass.

Question put and passed.The Attorney General laid the papers

onl the Table.

MOTION-AUSTRALIAN FLAG FORSCHOOLS.

Mr. FOLEY (Leonora) moved-That in the opinion of this H7ose in-

strtections9 should be issued by the Min-

910

[7 AUGUST, 1912.]91

ister that the Australian flag (blue)be flown at all schools throughout theState on till occasions when flags arepllm

Hie said: 1 wish to lpreface mny remarksby stating I am not moving that thle flagbe flown because I have any particularstrain of military blood in my veins, orbecause I desire that Australia should atany time be called upon to indulge in war-fare. On the contrary I believe-if itwere practicable-in the disarmament ofthe whole world. I believe the. best thiswvorld is capable of could be broughtabout by peaceful carrying out of eachcountry's ditties by the best men thateach czountry could produce. The intro-duction of flags in any country has to acertain extent been based upon senti-ment. The best and brightest that everany country has accomplished has beenbased in the first instanice purely on sen-timent7 and as that sentiment grew it hasdeveloped into something more materialthan mel-c sentiment. If the passing ofthis motion can in any way engendera true national Australian sentiment in

the younger portion of this vast Com-monwealth, our work in this direction willnot have been wasted. The flag I wish tohave flown over the various schools is onethat in itself is purely Australian, withthe addition that we, as Australians, be-ing- part and parcel of the greatest nationon earth,. wish to show our allegiance toGreat Britain by having the Union Jack,which has maintained so imaportant a partin Great Britain's history, perpetuatedby 'giving it a place in our own flag.Further than that, those persons en-trusted with the responsibility of sayingwhat the flag- should containt have alsothought it wise to include in that Aus-tralian flag the great Southern Cross ofthe Southern Hemisphere.

Hon. W. C. Angwin (H-onorary Minis-ter) : Why not include the black swan?

Mr. FOLEY :I will tell my bon. friendwhy I do not wish to see the black swanincluded in the Australian flag. I havethe Speaker's permission to exhibit herethe flag of which I am speaking, and Iwish to show my friend that the blackswan is not necessary to this flag. This

flag, I would like to point out, is purelyAustralian. Whichever way' VOLL look atthis flag y-ou are looking at it with Aus-tralian eyes. There are no State rightsabout this flag and, therefore, the blackswan is not necdssary to its completion.Whichever way you ]ook at this flagyou look at it through Australian eyes,and as long as wve look at anythingthrough Australian eyes it will be seenthat it beh oves thie States to look aftertheir smiall portion of this Empire. Onthat flag are five small stars, and onegreat star called the great white star, re-presenting the Commonwealth of Aus-tralia. Since this particular flag I am ex-hibiting was made there have been twomore small stars put on the Australianflag in order to have each State repre-sented. There are six States. Therehave been other stars put on the Austra-lian flog to represent the Northern Terri-tory and. Papun so you will see that everyState in the Commonwealth is now repre-sented. Australia is represented as awhole, and the Union Jack of Great Brit-ain. the country from which our fore-fathers mnostly sprang, is represantedalso. That Australia has no wish to be-little the Union Jack is clearly shown by'its inclusion in the Australian flag. Theflag, stands for all that is lofty and highas far as sentiment is concerned. We wishthe Australian flag to be flown over theschools in this State, because the youngerchildren, indeed the majority of the chil-dren at school throughout Australia,scarcely know what the Australian flagconsists of. Every other country in theworld has some animal, some flower, orsome flag which they revere -when nationalsentiment is spoken of. T contend thatno body of men, no body of school chil-dren, no body of the people of Australiacoild feel insulted when they saw at thehead of a procession a flag which has hadthe approval of the Imperial authorities,and which embodies all the essentialsof the Australian flag. There is to besaid of the Australian flag that someraces, namely, the Kaffirs, the Indian coo-lies, the Javanese, and the Kanakas, haveno desire to have a flag of some othetnation, or some part of a nation with

91 i

12[ASSEM1BLY.]

whichi they- are not conversant; butthroughout Australia, only recently, ifany person had raised an Australian flagthere would have been an outcry. Aus-tralia has lived past this, and is living atthe present timie in the hope of beingini the near future one of the great na-tions of the earth. If we can engenderthat idea of being a great nation, basedon national sentiment and national pur-ity, then I think by the flying of theseflags in the schools we are in a greatmeasure developing the patriotism of theschool children. The Imperial Govern-mnent have g_ iven the seal of approval tothe design which now floats over all ourdrill halls and public buildings withwhich Cte Commonwvealth has anything todo, and it is hard to conceive bow anyopposition could be offered to flying thisflag in the schools, seeing that at presentScotland will not even allow the UnionJack to he put in one corner of hernational flag consisting of a lion ramp-ant. I contend that no hion. member willdeny that Scotland has in the past shownher allegiance and faith in the greatBritish Empire. We have also the flag ofIreland. Recently we had the opportunity.of hearing the Premier and the leader ofthe Opposition speaking from the samneplatforn on a certain question which Ithink can be brought in when we arc

referring to a flag. Although the nationalflag of Ireland is not the same as thenational flag we wish to see flown in Auis-tralia, no one can say the people of thatnation have not in the past done theirduty towards Great Britain. One reasonwhy we should fly the blue Australianflag is that that flag, on which wasmarked the Southern Cross, was the firstflag ever flown in Australia, and it hasbeen handed on to us and has been re-cognised by the Federal authorities, whohave decided that it shall be the blue flagwhich shall float over their buildings andtheir ports wheq a flag is flown. There isno need to weary the House on this ques-tion, but I do hold that now Australia hascome to think as a nation, and is doingher part towards bettering the conditionof the people, by that attitude she is add-ing to the prestige of the British Empire.

If we_ as the Akustralian nation are doingthat, we are doin g our duty. When theAmerican hoys were here the Australiancadets wished to present them with anAustralian flag to take back to Americabut, although the Australian flag was ap-proved of by the Imperial authorities,officialdom or regulations of some sortprecluded the presenting of the flag byone of the Australian cadets. It had to bedone by a private Australian boy. TheAmerican boys were allowed to have that[lag at the head of their procession whienit was giVen to them by a private Aus-tralian boy, when the restriction was re-moved. So it will 'be seen that there wasno insult offered to the Imperial authori-ties or to Great Britain. We have a flagof our own and one which, I hope, if everit be necessary, wvill he carried to suc-cess, although I trust it will never befought under, because it is iny earnesthope that our nation wvill be one of peace.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon.T. Walker) :'I am not quite sure whatobligations this may place upon the Min-ister, what duties may devolve upon him.The motion reads "Instrutions shouldbe issued by the Minister." I san indoubt as to what Mfinister is intended,an d I am still more in doubt as to whatpowecr any Minister of this Govern meathas to issue orders with regard to theflying of a particular flag.

Mr 1. Taylor: We know all about wav-ing the flag at election time.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I amnot at A sure that it is for any Ministeror any executive officer of the Govern-ment to issue such instructions. Is i tnot rather a matter for whoever is incommand of the army of the State, thearmy qf the Commonwealth, or the armyof the Imperial Emnpire5 Just imagineme issuing such orders! A British fleetcomes in here, and they propose to flythe Imperial flag, but I issue orders thatthe -Commonwealth flag shall go up along-side the Imperial flag. I would like toknow how they would regard it, whetherthey would consider me as a rebel.

Mr. Turvey. Or an Australian.

912

(7 AUG;UST, 1912.3 1

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thereare times when even an Australian hasto how the head to a superior authority.

Mr. O'Loghlen: This flag combines thetwo, the British and the Australian.

The ATTORNEY 0-ENERAL: Still itis not the Imperial flag, it is the flag ofa section of the British dominions. Asection, it is true, of which everyone ofus should feel intensely proud, but it isnot the Imperial flag, and whether weshould have authority for running thatflag lip alongside the Imperial flag, I donot know. We have no power to orderthe flying of a particular flan.

Mr. Heitmaan: You can order it inthe schools,

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: No, itis not the flag of this State. Could Iorder the Chinese flag to be flown;

Mr. Heitmaun: I think every manshould have a flag of his own.

Mir. Taylor: They do have at electiontime.

Mr. George: Could we fly it on the topof this building?

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Youcan by courtesy fly the flag of everynation in the world, hut they are not ourflags, and the lion. member hit the nailon tile head whben hie spoke of the senti-ruent for a particular flag. Tt is theparticular sentiment clustering aroundaround particular flags that mnakes itdifficult to indiscriminately use them-There are flags that signify a particularsentiment at a particular time, that arefitting and appropriate for a particularevent, and all other flags flown on thatoccasion would be incongruous and marthe sentiment.

Mr. S. Stubhs: Not long ago a. flag wasflown near a 'warship at Albany, and theman was hauled before the admiral fordaring to fly the flag.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes,I mnight hoist up a flag which would bean insult.

Mr. 3IcDowalI: This motion is 'with re-gard to flags hoisted at schools.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL:- Thehon1. member should -read the motion.'Whenever any flags are flown in thisState, up would have to go at the schools

the Australian flag blue. I do not knowwhat kind of a mess we should get intoif that were done. While I desire tohare this general sentiment Cultivated,and I think tile hon. member has shownhis love for national sentiment, I do notwant to forget another more intense, be-cause nurrower sentiment, and that isthe sentiment which will cluster aroundthe Western Australian flag. I quiteagree wve should never forget that we arcmembers of a great nation in the Com-monwealth, and the Commonwealth is anation fit to take her place among thenations of the world1 but still the Comn-mJonwealtb is part of a, greater empire,and we must not forget the sentimentthat is around the empire. Neither mustwe forget the sentiment that surroundsour own homes. In my hiunble opinionthere is much to be said in favour of anhonourable emulation and rivalry betweenthe sister partners. of this Common-wealth, and if I may be allowed to ex-press the opinion, 1 might say that thisyoungest sister of the States, the Cinder-ella,' as she hasg been called, has withinher equal possihilities with any of theolder established States, and this Stateshould have her flag hionoured and re-spected ats any sovereign State in theBritish empire. That is my sentiment.I believe in Western Australia as a greatcountry in the growing.

Air. O'Loghlen: There should be nodifference between State and State atsregards thle flag.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thenwhy should there be any difference be-tween. Commonwealth and Dominion? Ifwe fly the British flag we fly the flag ofevery State in the whole of the Britishdominions, and on that store it would beunnecessary. If you are going to fly aflagr in conjunction with the British flag,whichi covers and includes all flags, thenI want to come in with Western Aus-tralia, and if we have a flag for out ownparticular section of the State, I willhave that as well. I believe in intensity.as wvell as, in diffusion, of sentiment. Ibelieve we are attached to the particularspot we love as much as to the greaterportion. namely, the State. What I want

913

914 ASSEALBLY.]

to point out chiefly is that I have nopower to order the flying of flags on someoccasions. if there is what I might calla vice-regal function when the commanderof the forces in Western Australia is incommand of the day, I could not orderwhat flags he shall fly on such an occa-sion. That would he impertinent, andihowever much I might wish to have itdone, I could give no order, and if I dis-obeyed the orders. of the commander ofils Majesty's forces in Western Aus-

tralia T might be ar-rested or suspected ofdisloyal sentiments. All I can promiseis that I will make -representations in thleproper quarters that this is the wish ofthis House. The lion. member knowsthat the (Jomnaonwealth flag is to be flownoir every festive occasion when holiday-nicking and episodes clustered around bysentiment ate transpiring. I have put itin rather a verbose way, but whenever weaire hionouring the British flag we shouldhe proud to associate the Federal flagwith it. I. would not od'-ise this Houseto set to work to order the commanderof His Majesty's forces in thesedominions regarding what flag shall beflown at events where hie, technicallyspeaking, is in coniniand of the day. Ithink the lion. member has served hispulrpose by expressing this sentiment, andI am sure he only desires to have thatseintinrent impIressed upon the -Ministerfor Education and the authorities whohave charge of the flag, so to speak, andhaving served that purpose I think hewill be content to withdraw the motion.

Mr. MeDOWALL (Coolgardie) : 1 (10wit alt ogether agree wvith lte AttorneyGeneral. I think lie is manking too miuchof a song, about the commander of our.arrons retrinetilts. As a matter of fact

tinjik lie is slightly m1isreading thle mIen-tion oif (lie memnber for _Mount Leonora.Mr. Foley simply desires; that a flag Shouldhe flown at schools throughout the State.I thIinik it is only right and proper thatthis State, which pays for the educationof its c2hildren, should endeavour to in-rulcal e in bein a love for thie Australianflag, trid I should say not only this Statebut the whole of the States of thre Comr-ruonwealth. Al though the Attorney Giene-

rat desires the mover to withdraw hismotion. I think this House Should expresssomre opinion on the subject. If wesimnply come here and have a few minutes'conversation, and then withdraw the mo-tionr. no good whatever is effected; noth-tog is done. Let us put it to the Houseand get aii expression of the representa-tives, of the people, and see if they aredesirous of instilling patriotism into thepeolple of Australia. There is no questionOf being rebels; that does riot enter intotlre matter at all. WVe are a thoroughlyloyal lot of People.

Mr. George: Loyal to wvhorn?Mr. Me DOWALIL: To ouir Sovereign

aind to our country. Our country princi-pally' at present is Australia. We desirethat everything that inculcates love ofcountry,, evcrythig that arouses patriot-ismn, everythring that educates tire young:cuple of a country to express their love

for it on every occasion should be done.The flying- of this flag is undoubtedly cail-CUhriod t~o edurcate tie youth of Australian p to one idea of the importance ofthreir~ crurtry. 1, for one, do trot desireto spenk at airy length on the question be-cause, so far as I can see, it is one thatshould commend itself to memibers withoutairy effort whatever. The Attorney Gene-ral complains that lie does not know Which11iruster is to give thre instructions to flythe flag nit the schools. It can only be theMirrster for Education. The Attorne 'yGteneral is only assumning an irnocenethat lIres ncrot possess 'wren lire makes astatemnlt of that kind.

The Attorniey Genieral: It migiht be tireP rear icr.

Mr. 31c1OWALL: It mnight be, but itis undoubtedly intended for the Ministertfor E'drtcatior, arid I sincerely trust thatwvithout Wrstirg munrch time arid withroutniruch delayv we shall b)y a resoluition oftire House express out desire that tire Aus-tralian flag shall be flown at such schools.It is useless to withidraw (lie mrotion aridhave no expression of opiunion. Thesentiment that tire Attorney General ex-piressed is what lie objected to the otherevening. He tells US to withdraw thre mon-tioni and lire will mrake represenltations totire prolrer nrarter. I am riot satisfied

914

[7 Anutsr, 1012.]91

with that. I1 want anl expression of opin-ion from this House that the Australianflag should he flown. In order that theremnay he no misconception as to who is toissue the instruction, I will move anamendment to insert after ".Minister" thewords "1for Education." That will make itpurlee ly clear as to who we intend shouldissue tine instruction. If the second con-tention of the Attorney General is correct,and hie objects to the flag being flownonl all occasions when flags are flown, wewould jprohably be able to amend the mo-tion to meet his views, but [1 want somieexp)ression given as to whether, in theOpinion of this House, the flying of thisflag is advisable or desirable.

Mr. Wisdom: What about Empire Day?Mr. MeDOWA LL: That is certainly a

dlay w'len the Australian flag should beflown with tile Imperial flag. It is notour- desire that thle British flag should heinterfered with in any way whatever. butwe know, and the Australian Natives' As-sociation knio-w, that there has been a con-siderable amount of cavilling in connectionwith this matter. WAe know we have hada. promise from the Federal 'Minister for.Defence to fly this particular flag andyet that promise has not been recognisedonl sonic occasions.

Mr. ieitujann: Have Pill consultedLyonl Weiss?

Mr. McDOWALL: I ami speaking ona serious subject,' and I cannot take noticeof frivolous interjections. I do not thinki t is n ecessa ry to take u p a ny futether ti me.I shiall content myself now by moving thleamendmient-

That after "Mfinister" the wordls $torEducation" be insearted.

Mr. LEWIS (Canning) : 1 second theamendment.

Mr. DWYER (Perth) : The hon. mlem-ber in moving this motion, and thle moverof the aniendwent are both prompted bya sentiment which appeals to all. of us,that of fostering here a spirit of patriot-ismn. I think it is desirable that the grow-ing- youth of Australia should he tauightto appreciate the land of their birth, totake a pride in its glory and successes, inits past history, and( in its immense naturalresources. They should be taught to he-

lieve that it is a heaven-sent land to themand to those who hare sought its shoresfor the purpose of mnaking a livelihoodand making it their permanent residence.Theyv should be taught to take a glory and.prie in this land of theirs, and to believeit is the grandest gem in the diadem of theEmpire. That is the object I -think ofthe mover of the motion, and with thatobject I think everyone will sympathise.There is no feeling so productive of goodfor anyv country than the feeling of pat-riotisi among the citizens of the coun-t ry. After aill. that is the feeling whichbinds us together, makes uis believe in thefulturle of the couintry,. makes us fNet-

All are but parts of one stupendous whole,Whose body-

if 1 many paraphrase Pope-

.......the Empire is, Australia the soul.If by fostering this spirit of pat-riotisin we can incline the Australianyouth to take a bigger interest intheir country, and in thle big poiiti-cal problems that face it, we willfind themil grow into mnore useful citizens.There arc tremendnus problems facingthis country that will have to be taken inhiand without very mucih delay. The ques-tin,, of defence, and the question of ourAsiatic neighbours. all these are crop-ping lip ; they are affording a fer-tile source of discussion ait the pre-sent time, butl very shortly they willeoivie beyond thle stage of discussion.and we will he faced with thleproblem of what we are to do in a prac-tical way toward4s settling these dillicul-

ies. If thle Australian youth feels thatpride in his country whlich I thi'nk heought to feel, anid if lie feels, to use Gold-ssnitli's words, flht-

Such is the patriot's boast, where'er weroam',

His first, best country ever is at home.

If lie believes thant. hec will become more-attached to his country, mnore attached touls shores, lie will be .jealouis of its honiour.always readly to stand up for its rights,always read ' to (d0 what bie canl for thegood of its citizens as a whole; he willalso-aqnd [ think this is a point whichappeals particularly to members of thisside of the House-be anxious to see

915

916 [ASSEMBLY.]

t hat every mail ad w11xomaLn ill Australiais given a fair chance to get a fair liveli-hood; he wvill see to it, so far as he can,that every mail and wvoman in Australiais wvell equal opporiity to advance in,life, comfort and happiness, no matterfrom what social strata he or she may hedrawn. We should do all Ave can to fosteraid encourage Australiani patriotism bothfromn a sentimental and froni a practicalpoint of view. It cannot be said that Aris-tralians will make ally the wvorse citizens ofthe Empire because they have a particularand special delight and glory in their owncoulntry. Now, while I endorse and sup-port the memnbers for Mount Leonora andCoolgardie in their desire to foster this,. do not think it can altogether be doneby the mere flying of a flag; I think thatwe should probe deeper. aild go furtherthan the mere flying, of a flag. We shouldhave it as part of our school curriculumthat one day at any rate in the year.should be devoted specially to the historyof Australia and the lessons it teaches andto the study of Australian subjects, and,if necessary, a display of the flag. wvithinstruction as to the meaning of the greatSouthern Cross and the other em-blems upon it. That is howv to fos-ter the spirit of patriotism, not themere hoisting of a flag, tying it-with a string, and leaving it to float inthe wrind. That is all very wvell. but itdoes not go far enough; it does not in-culcate in the minds of the Australianyouth at proper spirit of patriotism, ormake people proud of their country andprond to he called citizens. But readingthe history' of the country and learningthe lessonls it teachles. and reading the livesof oar great exlIorers and all of thosewhor have aae tis eon ntrv's history.must make olle proud to belong to thesame nation: and any boy who reads andunderstands this country's development onpolitical lines, where Australia has beenill the vangunard in all political progress.must also feel proud to belong to thatcountr , . It is to cultivate this spirit thatit is necessary to go further than fly aflag. We ought to set a day apart for thestu dy of Avstmalian history' . and the les-sons which A ustralian history teaches. Ilistened attentively to the Attorney 0 e''-

era I, and I could see that the mol on asframed, from his point of view. was al-most impractielable, becaluse it mean s t hatthe Anstra Ian flag will he flown oil alloccasionls oil which flags are flown.

Air. Wisdom: Is it not flowvn oil alloccasions.!

Air. DWYER: No.Ifr. Wisdom :What flag is flown?Alr. DWYER Ill some schools in oat-

lyiiig parts I dare say there is 11o flagflowvnu; in othier schools the Union Jack.the flag of the Empire, is flown. I suggestthat the i ntentioin of he lie lover was thatoil all occasions ot school festivities theAustralian flag oughlt to be flown, and thatthe children attending a school should liegathered uInder ( lie flag so that they couldfeel that they hnelongecd to thle Australiannation, and that they wvere a part alsoof one great Empire. though in) particulartheir allegiance wvas due to Australia. Iwould suggest that, later onl, the movermight accep~t anl amendment to add after"flown" the wvords "at school festivals,"in order to make thle motion practicable.I would he exceedingly sorry if the motionwere lost; it would be a reflection on lion.mnenmbers' patriotism : hut I feel, in itspresent form, the motion is impracticable,and I. make this suaggestion to the hio,,.member to modifyv it and make it practi-cable and reasonable for acceptance bythe Minister for Edu~cation. who is a re-spon~sible officer of tile Crown. and has tolook outside sentiment somewhat. T amquite sure. the Attorney General is justas anxious as all of us to cultivate anddevelop Australian1 sentiment, hut lie hasalso to consider the full effect of anymotion of this kind when passed: andit would be unfair to pilace him in theposition of endeavouring to early out amlotionl delib~era tely p)assed by this Par-linment whlich the law itself would notpermit him to carr 'y out. That is a difficultposition in which to place him, and arather unfair position. For that reasonI suggest that bon. members; should con-sider the question of modifyvingL theirnmotion. Flags arc flown when we havevisitors such as the United States battlefleet or Japanese warships. They areflowyn on (ihe 17th Ma rch. and on va riotisother oceilsiolls ton namerons to mention.

916

[7 AUGusT, 1912.]91

I ask hon. members to consider my pro-position.

Sitting suspitded from 64.5 to 7.30 p.m,

[The JDeputy Speaker took the Chair.]Mr. GEORGE j'Afurray-Wvellington):

If there is one thing, which has pleasedmie more than another during the discus-sion. we bave had to-day,' it is the feelingfrom the speakers who are really andfrilly Australian, that is by being born inAustralia. The feeling they have expressedwhich does credit to them, and which isone that should be inculcated throughoutthe length and breadth of this continent:that is,' the feeling of patriotism to thecountry in which a man is horn. I speakaqs aii Eirrjishmar born and as an Austra-lian of nearly thirty years' standing, andalthough I may not pretend to feel forAustralia as strongly as those who areborn in it, and as strongly as I hope mychildren, who have been born in Austra-lia, do feel, I can say that Australia spellsfor me something more than a miere name;a country which is good, which is gov-erned and will always be governed by menof English origin. I can understand thedesire of the mover that the Australianflng shall not be obscured.

The DEPIJTY SPEAKER: I wouldremindl the bon. member that only a for-i] amnidment is before the House, andI think it would be better to dispose ofthat.

Mr. GEORGE: I was going to moveanother amendment.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I thinkthis one might he disposed of first.

Amendment put and passed.Mr. GEORGE: I was referring to the

member for Leonora, who has submittedthis motion to the House, and was stat-ing that in his devotion to the flag of hisnative land he was not unmindful and didnot wish to forget our sense of duty andthe sense of love and affection we shouldhave,' and which I believe we have, for theflagr of thle old land, which his forbearsand my forbears served under, and thepoint that struck me was whether the hion.mnember intended that the Australianflag should he flown on occasions onlywhen the flag of the Empire was flown.or -whether it should be used as an almost

every-day occurrence. To my mind, whileit is desirable that every effort should hemade to cause the children of the Stateto feel that thley are to he, in their smnallway, citizens of a great country, I thinkthe exhibition of the Australian flagwould be incomplete if at the same tiniethe British flag, were not flown as well.

Hon, W. C. Angwin (Honorary Mini-ister) : It will be joined with it.

Air. GEORGE: But I would like tofeel -that the children of Australia weremade to understand the greatness of thecountry from which their forbears earnerand .I would like themn to feel at the sametime a love for their native land, thatdeeper pride which Englishmen under-stand and k-now, that we people who havecome from those islands in tlie Northiernseas have practically been masters of theworld. While rejoicing as they do thatAustralia is a part of that Empire, byt-ing it as they will dto as their native coun-try, they recogniise they are only a partof a mighty whole, which they may beproud to live for and proud to fighit for,and, if necessary, proud to die for. Thleflag of old England has never been usedother-wise than in the cause of sweeping-away oppression and wrong, and proud aswe may feel for our native land, let irsnot forget that the deeper and enduringpride;. the only pride we have, is a know-ledge thnat we sprung fromu a great coun-try. I think it 'may not be out of placeto say that I am glad indeed it has fallento the lot of some Ministry in my time to.propose to the people of Australia thattheir duty lies in preparing for defence.I feel that the question of defence and thlequestion of the flag are allied, and thatthere will awaken in this great continenta feeling of patriotism which we, at anyrate at present, canl hardly understand. Itis not merely tire fact of tlris service beinga military service, it is the fact that be-yond all that, contributing as it will to-wards the defence of thie continent, it willburild up iii the youth of our coutry aphysiqure and a feeling of discipline thatthey are strong-ly in need of. The bon.member aught plerhap~s have pressed thismatter a little further, and his friend andmy friend, the member for Coolgzardie,

917

918 [ASSEMBLY.]

who is such a great believer in the Arts-tralian natives, as L ant too, that theiridea is that this one flag can be made onall occasions to represent what is required]for patriotism and so forth, ]t may he-that if that flag is exhibited in our schools,and if the teachers who are there findthat that flag is united to the flag of theold country, [he spirit of which I havebeen speaking will be carried out. Bit.1 do want to slate that it will be, in myopinion, a bad dayv for Australia, a badlday for anyone born in the British Domi-inions, when they forget the great debtthey owe the country from which theirfathers caime.

Mr. Heitutann : [1 do not think onecan be loyal unless he is patriotic.

A-r. GEORGE : Of course lie cannot,but he cannot be patriotic unless lie isloyal. He may he loyal and patrioticto the country in which hie was born, thatis natural and what we want, but how-ever strong that patriotism may be, andhowever strong that loyalty may be . un-less it is built up onl the strong founds-lioii of a belief iii the race to which webelong, I say no patriotism or loyaltywill be worth a snap of the finger.

Mr. O'ILoghilen : The lpeople of (lieEast- end of London have not mutch to bethankful for.

Mr, GEORGE : We are not discussingthe troubles which mjust be associatedwith every nation, not only British, butFrench, Oerinan, Russian. and] even the,great United States. Those blots andulcers on civilisation which canl be foundini all g-reat countries are not conifinied tothe English race. They are universal. Butwhat I ant speaking of is the pride ofrace, the linde of belonging to a nationwhichi from a small beginning now domi-nates the world, and which has done mnoreto civilise the world and help forwfardhumanity than any other nation. Weknow , and who knowvs better than thosewho have had anything to do with largecities that trouble there must be in allthe lower grades of soecty, and. thankOod, the people of tile nation, it does notmatter whether they he of the higheror tile lower grades, are doing their bestto make things materially better. The

question of our race is absolutely thequestion of personal endurance and per-sonal existence. Is the lion., member notawa-re that at tlie present time the greatestproblem which is affecting statesmen inthe old country, and which affects us. isthe threatening- cloud of war between theold country and one of the other p-eatnations? Is lie not aiware that the cost ofarmiaments is mounting uip and up?9 Whatbetter lesson can be got than the absolutefact that Australia has started its navy?9What for? Not for defiance. but for thedefence of Australia, and to assist thatgoreat old countryv of which I have beensp~eaking. I would say in conclusion thatI amu proud to hear the young A ustraliansin this Chamber speak so feelingly andso truthfuflv about their affection fortheir country. I say "God speed to themand to their countryv." They have a coun-tn', worth living- in, -worth fighting forand,. if necessary, worth dying for.

heMinister for Lands moved-Th at rovsideration of motions be pro-

ceeded w~ith.Mr'. Mlonger :On a question of priv-

ilege, I would like to know if this isto be the understanding during the re-maiinder of the session-if the Govern-meat with their small majority are goingtro commandeer every Wednesday eveningfor thme persotial convenience of their sup-p)0rters?

The Deputy Speaker :The hon. mem-ber is not in order; he is imputingmotives,. What is thle qunestion of priv'i-lege?

M~r. Monger: 1. desire to know whetherthle inotions; are to be proceeded with be-forc time Orders of the Day?

The Deputy, Speaker: That is thelitotion which the Minister has moved.

Motion tput and passed.M~r. MONGER: In respect to the muo-

tion moved by the member for Leonora,I desire to wove-

7'Iiot the debate be adjourned.Motion put and negatived.Mrt. MiONGER : May I ask, M r. Deputy

Speaker, whether you ni-c taking noticeof the amendment moved by thle memberfor Perth?

918

[7 AUGUST, 1912.]91

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There isno amendment before the Chair at pre-sent.

Vir. MONGER: 1 understood the lion.member for Perth moved an amendmentthat certain words be added.

The Minister for Lands: He onlygzave notice of his intention of so moving.

Mr. FOLEY (in reply) : I desire toreply briefly to some of the speakers. Ido not wish that the amendment sug-gested by the member for Perth shouldbie embodied in the motion. My reasonis that I have no desire that the flagsshould be waved only on special occa-sions. when the holiday making spirit andother spirits nare in, and people aretempted to wave flags, when the wavi ngof flags would mean nothing. I say theflags should be waved throughout theschools as an everyday occurrence, inorder to engender in our school childrenthe* idea that it should be an everydayoccurrence to thin-k something of the flagPof their country. In a country likeAmierica the national flag is flownsthroughout the States every day, andevery day the children Salute that flag.I think the amendment p~roposed by themember for Coolgardie wvill meet thecase. As regards the suggestion of theAttorney General. I have no intention ofwithdrawing the motion, because, as themember for Coolgardie has pointed out,we desire to get the opinion of the Houseais to whether or not this flag should beflown. I was almost tempted to bring theflag, into the House again when I heardthe member for Murray - Wellingtonspeak as hle did. In the course of myremarks in moving the motion I was veryva 'eful. when using the word Australian,not to mention whether it meant Ams-

iralian-born or Australian by adoption;because in mny opinion there are in Aus-tralia just as good Australians by adop-tion as5 there are .native-borni, and theA\ustralian sentiment is as deeply rootedin their hearts as in those of the native-born Australians. The Attorney Generalspoke abont Western Australia. I am anative of the State of Victoria. Still Irecognise at the present time WesternAustralia is the best State of the lot.

All my interests are here, and I have asdeep a love in my heart for Western Aus-tralia as for my native State. And insaying this I am not insulting my nativeSlate in any sense. I hope all the pettyfeelings which edist between the variousStates will be cast into oblivion. Theflag we had in this Chamber this after-noon stands for the whole of Australia.If the several States desire to work.out their individual destinies it is theirright to do so, but while wve intend tohave a flag to fly over Australia weshould have our own Australian flag, andthe one we had here this afternoon is thetruest expression of what Australia canproduce.

Questi .on, as amended, put and passed.

MOTION-DAIRY INSPECTOR'SREPORTS.

Mr. LANDER (East Perth) -moved-'that there be laid upon the Table of

the flows the resports furnished byInspeclor Brunt on the state of thedairies he has visited during the past12 months.

He said: Air. Inspector Brunt has been,on a vecry extensive inspection around thedairies in order to collect data for thecommittee appointed to fix the standardof milk in relation to pure food supplies,and there is not the least doubt that wvhenwe read Mr. Brunt's report, if I am notmistaken, there will be found thereinsonmc interesting news which should provehighly informative to the people ofWestern Australia. Many attempts haveibeen undertaken to discount the asser-tions made at different times by the Corn-missioner for the South-West, and others,in respect to dairying inspection, butwhen Mr. Inspector Brut4's report isplaced upon the Table we shall have oureyes opened again. It will he found tobe another edition of the old story ofthe filthy state of some of the dairies.

Mr-. GEORGE (Murray-Wellington) :Iam glad to learn from the few remarksmade by the mover of the motion thatwvhen this report is on the Table we Shallfind in it some justification for the re-markable strictures which the dairy, ex-

919

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pert of the State found it necessary tomake. The district which I have the honi-our to represenit has a number of dairieswithin its confines, and a number ofdairymen who have been engaged formany y'ears in providing milk for themetropolis have felt that the remarksmade by, the Commissioner were, at anyrate, too sweeping to be allowed to passwithout question. Those dairymen are notunaware that there are dairies and dairies,some of which are unhealthy. and oughtto be swvept out. On the other hand theysav with somec reason "We have dairy in-specers, and if these inspectors are do-i ng their work it should be impossiblefor such a state of things as was referredto by Mr. Connor to exist." They say,further. that if this state of thingsdoes exist then the inspectors are notdoing- their duty, while if the inspectorsare doing their duty the remarks of theCommissioner can not be justified. Andthey' reel, wvith somec degree of strengthi,that it would be unfair if the dairies whichare clean, Or Which the owners believe tobe clean and desire should be clean,should be branded amongst those otherdairies wvhich are unmistakablyv unclean.If this report will show the dairies towhich Mr. Connor referred when he madethat memorable speech, then it will be forthose I represent to feel that the stigmacannot remain upon them. So far as Mr.Connor is concerned, it is only just tosay from my knowledge of him that he isa luau who, I think, would be very carefulnot to say a thing unless lie could sup-port it with proof. He would have nodesire to injure anybody. But, lie havinghad the courage to make those remarks,it is only reasonable that the Governmentshiid let those wvho are entitled] to havethese strictures placed upon them beknown, and those not entitled to be in-eluded in the same category allowed tofeel that there is no slur placed uponthem. I am willing to admit that thequestion of milk supply is probably thegreatest factor we can possily have inrespect to infant mortality. The hon.gentleman knows, and I know, many in-stances of infants. supp~lied with milkfrom dairies, who have pined and pined,and sonmc of them eventually passed out,

while others supplied with milk from pri-v'ate cows have grown up with healthybodies. So far as the Government ex-pieriment is concerned, I for one willwatch it with great interest in the hopethat I will be able to say they have donewell for the country. I shall say nothingabout the Government dairy until I seehowv it turns out. If the Government suc-ceed in snupplyinig pu11re milk for infants Iwill say they have done good work, and,so far as thiat part of socialism is con-cerned, I shall be glad to support it.

Hon. W. C. AN&WJIN (HonoraryMinister) : Iii order that hon. membersmay not be under a misapprehension, Iwould dike to point out that when we getthis report, which I am agreeable shouldbe laid on the Table, it wvill be found thatit contains nothing dealing with individualdairies, but is a general expression ofopinion from one who has spent 12 monthsdoing nothing else but visiting the dairiesthroughout the State on a special missionfor the express purpose of taking samplesof milk so as to enable the advisory boardto ascertain if it was possible to fix astandaird different from that which hasbeen in existence in the State for manyyears. This mall has had an opportunityof inspecting dairies differently from theordinary dairyv inspector, because he hasbeen able to see what system is adoptedwhen hie is not considered to be an in-spect or.

Mr. Lander: He caught them on thehop.

Hon. W. C. ANGWIN (HonoraryMinister) : I do not say that, but onmany occusions, as soon as an inspectorconies to ai dairy, methods are adoptedwhich are not the usual practice. Thismanl Ins been in a position, however, tosee the system in vogue in almost everydaniry' when an inspector is not expected tobe present, and no doubt his report willbe very interesting. Objections have beentaken in regard to the remarks of Mr.Con nor, the Comnmissioner for the SonthI-West. but I a in fully satisfied from r--ports presented not only' by thle inspectors,but also by the bacterolog ist (Dr. Me-Clinlock). and other oifficers in the MedicalDlepartmnent, that no strictures could betoo strong- on some of the people carrying

[7 AUGUST, 1012.]01

enl dairy' ing businesses iii this State. Atthe saine time, although strictures havebeen very often passed on dairies in gene-nil, it does not follow that every man doesnot do his utmost to see that his dairyis conducted tinder the best system. Thereis a good deal of difficulty inl connection*ith this, because we realise ihat if impuremilk is brought into the City and the selleris taken to the court the retailer condemnsthe wholesale man who has a dairyv in thle,country, as was mentioned by the memberfor Murray-Wellington; those in thie coun-try, in turn, take great objection to theblame being placed on their shoulders, andvice rersu. The man who sells. the milksays lie sells it in tile condition in whichhie receives it and does. nothing to makeit imipure. but 1 am satisfied that as aresult of the action taken byv the Govern-meat of late in connection with the distri-hution of milk in the metropolitan area-the examinations and( analyses, and inmany instances the prosecutions that haretaken place--hatter conditions will obtainin future.

'Mr. George: If the dairies are dirty.what liave the inspectors been doing-?

Ron. W. C. ANOWIN (HonoraryMinister) : That is one of the questionsany person can always fall back uponl-why does not the inspector close a dairythat is bad? The fact is that the inspectororders improvements to be made and al-most ever~y dairyman promises that he wIllcarry them out, but it takes time to putthe Jaw into motion to compel him to dothat. Thle lion, member for Claremontcould tell the House thit the health aul-thorities in his district had almost topersecute people in order to compel themto keel) their dairies in order, and I couldquote cases in East Fremiantle where peo-ple have left the district rather than corn-ply with thle conditions imposed uponlthem by the health authorities. Unlessdairvnicn are followed up closel 'y to seethat the improvements required are car-ried ouit, it is almost impossible to hav-cthe dairies kept up to the proper stand-ard. T'he menmher for 'Murray-Wellington-would not desire that inspectors should hecontinually piittinig people into the policecourt, and to avoid that they try their

utmost to educate people to thle necessityof keeping their dairies up to a highstandard: In regard to the. Governmentmilk supply there have been inny critic-isius, but not one of them has had anyfoundation, so fai as the purity at thlemilk is concerned. Thle milk suipplied tothe hospitals is perfeetly pure, and uhehospital officials are wvell satisfied with theaction of the Government in taking overthis supiply,

Elon. J. MITCHELL (Northam) ;Thistirv bu~s in ess hias heen fru-it tn I of innchiti-otible from lime to time, and inl connec-tionl withi it at least one member hasearned notoiiiy. ]r has always heen thecustom to abuse eveiyhody whlo suppliesmilk to thle p~eople. We should have allI le reports which tile department has re-ceived during tile last twelve inontlis fromthe inspectors, 'because it would be goodfor the House and for the public to knowwhat has happened. I feel safe in sayingthat the dairies of Western Australia arequite up to the average of those in Aus-tralia generally at any rate. The peoplewho eng-age in dairying in Perth do sounder T-eat disadvantages. Feet] is dearand in summier timue they have to dependalmost entlirely on dry ' feed, but I believethey have tried to supply good and pumremilk. Thiere' -are exceptions of course-men who do not keel) their premises cleanand do not suliply milk up to the standard-hut we should be just and fair to thedairymen. When the late Gover-nmentwere in office we had miany' inspectionscarried out wheni sensational statementshad been made, particularly by the mem-ber for East Perth.

Mr. Lander: You remember that "Putup" inspection you h ad at that time.

Efonl. S1. M1ITCHELL: Thle hli. niem-her is the only one who fakes anything.These inspections were faiirl-, undertakenin the interests of the people and not inthe interests of the daii yinen. T remnemberthe sensational statement being made thatif the people drank milk it woid be theend of them. We sent our inspectors andnewspaper reporter-s on surprise visits andthe deiries visited wer round to be allthey should he. It goes without sayingthant we can have a pin-e milk supplY if

921

922 [ASSEMBLY.)

we pay for it. There is a dairy in Vic-toria which supplies the Lady Dalton In-stitute with pure milk, but that coststwice thle price of thle milk ordinarily sup-plied. I1 think it is Is. 6d. per gallon.1 visited that place. and saw the milkput upl. and the great care that is takenin the milking and iii thle appointments.The miilk rooms are kept at a low tem-perature. and the cows are tested once ayear, but in Victoria. where milk is soldas low as 6dl, per gallan, I know that theprice of the milk of this particular dairywas high indeed. 1. have forgolten theexact price, hut I remember that T con-sidered it twice the ordinary price ofmilk as retailed in Perth. However, thepeople can have just what they can affordto pay for, and they cannot afford to paytar milk upl to that standard. If all thledlairies. were to be kept as that particulardairy is kept. we could not afford milk atall. At the same time, I believe thereshould be continuous inspection, that thedairies should be clean and that the cowsshould be iinspected from time to time,hut I amn not fool enough to suppose thatthere is a big dairy in this State or inlte other States that is altogether freefrom tnberculosis. The cattle in Aus-traliai are more or less affected, and noone knows bletter than the member forEast Perth that if there is one tuberen-bous cow in a herd, it takes 'only a shorttinme for the whole herd to become in-fected. It seems to me that the solutionof the milk supply difficulty does not lieso much in thle inspection of dairies asit does in the inspection at the point ofdelivery. Inl Sydney they pasteurise agreat deal of the milk, and that is whollyfree front germ life when it is sent out.The only safe supply we can have isthrough pasteurising, bitt we have notreached that stage yet, and in the mean-time it is the duty of the Governmentto see that there are inspections and thatthe dairies are kept clean. At the sametime, thle people who are supplying milkmust be treated fairly if the public are tovet at good supply at a reasonable cost.The milk is, dear now;, notwithstandingthe efforts of the Government. I remnem-ber that when I imported cows with aview to encouraging the dairing indus-

try, I was subjected to a good deal ofcriticism from members opposite.

The Mlinister for Lands: No, thle ob-jection was to the messenger- you sent.

Air. Taylor : ])on't you follow suit fromthat side?

Hon. J. MITCHEFLL; The man we seatwas a capable matl and an experiencedofficer, but hie wits at West Australian.,and that was all muembers oppositehad to complain of. Wh~Io did the presentGovernment send to the Eastern Statesto buy cows for the establishment of tileGovernment herd]?

Trie Minister for Lands: We broughltcow's Over an1d bought themi onl a rubereuljittest.

Hlon. J. MlITOI-ELL: Tuberculin teststire not'always infallible, because thle lion.member knows there are times when thetitberculin will not react and r le test isuseless. WVill the 1,linister say whetherthese cows have come into miilk since thteyarrived in thle State?

The Mitnister for Lands : I presnnie theycamue over iii milk.

lon. J. MlITCH1ILL: tows cannot liebrought over itt milk 1101, can the Govern-ment rel y whollyv on the tubercutliin te-t.

WeT know that a tuberculin test cnnot a-i]warvs be applied with amiv degree or er-taintiv. These cons that 'the MAinister forLand1(s is bringing ov er will help to swellthe siipply in the mietropolitan area. but ifthle Mtinister for 1Lands trantsferred cowsfromn the herds already established hie wiltnot be doing- anytingu to increase tile milksri ppIy- I hopie tile Minister will tell uiswhere the Gover-nment obtained those cowsand how many they purchased? There is110 doubr that thle deteruinuation of IliteGovernment to establish a State mnilk sup-ply has discoutraged those connected withthe induistry. and the result will hie thatthere will be less milik for the people inthe metrop~olitanl area than there has beenunless the government malke it Clear issoon as p]ossible how far they intend togo. T believe that the dairving- industryshould be encouraged and 'f know it catnonly exist where suipervision is all thattit ought to he. T shouldI like to hear Frirtthe Honorary Minister what standard liepropos ito fix si in'f lie has the replort;-of the inspectors.

922

[7 Auous, 1912.) 2

Hon. W. C. Angwin (Honorary Minis-ien) : It will be fixed by the advisoryboard.

Hion. J. MITCHEtLL: Has the standardbeen fixed'!

Hon. W. C. Angwvin (Honorary Minis-ter) : Not 'yet.

Hon,. .1. MTITCHELL: If it is fixed onso~me samples that were taken, it will be avei Inuzhih standlar'd indeed. I heard that inOnle district this inspector had got overfive per- cent. of butte, fat in some milkhe had tested.

Mr. Lander: That is possible.HRon. .1. MITCHELL: But niot probable.

If' we fixed thie standard at four per cent.wve will not have innch milk stipplied inthe metropolitan area. The siandard musthe reasonable and it is futile to fix a stan-dlard above the possibility of the averagedairy herd. I intend to move anl amend-Inent. We should have the report, niotonly of this inspector, but of all the in-sI ectoi-, who have visited our- dairies duii-ing the past twelve mlonths. I. move ana nendment-

That after "Brunt" the words, "andall other departmental inspectors," behm~ert ad.Mr'. fEanden.: Mfake it four years. and

you will get some information.110:1. J. M ITCHELl: The hon. member

('anl Wake it twenty-four if he likes. Twoother words will have to he altered if theamendment is carried, hnt [ take it thatthey will be consequential.

Amendment lint and passed.Mr. L.ANIDER (in reply) : When I

inoved this motion I had no intention ofinferring that all the dairymen in West-ern Auistralia were in the habit of keep-ink' theiir dairies in an insanitary and tin-hiealthy condition. I want to obtain thisreport fromt Inspector Brntu. He is amIanu I have never met, but I have heardgood reports concerning him from differ-enit dairymen in travelling around West-ern Australia. Mr. DfitehelI has referredto milk being supplied in Melbourne at6dI. a gnllon. I would remind him thatwhen he was Minister for Agriculture hisdepartment supplied the Bunbur 'v butterfactory with milk ait 8d. a gallon, possiblyto ii the flnnburv seat. on. perhaps it

might niot have been for that reason.Hlowever, milk was supplied to that fac-tory at ad. a galloa instead of being sentto the Children's Hospital, The only dif-ference between the member for Northamand the present Minister is tbat the onesupplied the milk to the hospital and theother to a boodler's factory. Mr. Mit-eliell's statement that cows in milk willnot rcact to the tuberculin test is ridicu-Iolls.

H-on. J. Mlitchell: I (lid not say cows inmilk; I said in a certain condition.

Mr. LANDER: That is a rotten con-dition, It means that they have grone toofar or else that they have been tested onlyrecently. If a cow is niot, too far gonew~ithu tuiberclCosis she will react, so it issimnply nuonseunse for the lion. member toendeavour to get us to believe that arow% wilt niot react to the test. There areonly two conditions under which a cawiil not react. One is when she is too

far gonec wit h tuberculosis, and the otheris When the cow has been inoculated so0 asto deceive the inspectors. That is whywve wanit the reports of the inspectors, toshow the dishoniesty which exists.

M1r. Georre: I's there not a time when aPow will niot react?9

'Mr. LANDER: No.IMr. George: The authorities are against

Mo-ire. ADER: There is no standardauthority inl refer-ence to the tuberculintest w'ho is againlst it.

Mr. George: There is a certain timewlin they ill not react, and you oughtto know it.

Mr. LANDER.: I have told the boa.muember. and I. challenge contradiction,that there ar-e only two conditions uinderwhich a cow will not react, one is whenshne is rotten with tuberculosis, as many?ows iii Western Australia are, and theother is when she has been inoculated withthe object of deceiving the inspector. Ifa cow is inocuila-ted with tuberculosis andtested on the following day, she will notreact. That is why they have to place thework of tuberculin testing uinder the Gov-erminent supervision in different partsz ofthe world.

Mr. Georgze: The authorities arc agninst

923

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Mr. LAN.DER: When thle mnember forNortham wvas Miister for Lauids andAgriculture forty out of eighty cowswhich were testedi reacted to thle tuberculintest, and the Government of the day wouldnot look at themn. When we have cowslike that hii I1he State. it is timie to movemotions of this description so thai mienu-hors can be euliulitened as to what isgoing" on.

Question as amended put and passed.

BILLJS (3) - RETLUNED FROM1LEO IS LATI VE COUNCIL.

1, Excss (1910-11) (without aniend-mient).

2. North Fremantle 'Municipal Tram.-ways Amieinment (without amendment).

3, Nedlands Park Tramways Amend-ment (without amendment).

BILLS (2)-FIRST READING.1, Election of Senators Amendment.2, Inter-State Destitute Persons Relief.Received from the Legislative Council.

BILLS (:)-THIRD READING.1, TramlWaYS Purchase.2, Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.3. Health Act Amueidtnent.Transmitted to the Legislative Council.

3OT ION - RAILWAY CON\STRUC-TiON, CONTRACTS TO EXPEDITE.

Debate resumed from the 24th Julyupon the following motion of the Hon.Frank Wilson :---"That in order to ex-pedite the granting of railway facilities tosettlers, and in order to increase the av-enues. of employment for our people, itis expedient that contracts be called inn-inediately for all railways authorised byParcliamnent."

The "MINISTER FOR WORKS (Hon.W. D. Johnson): I feel that I should ex-press my thanks to the hon. gentleman forintroducing this motion as it gives me anopportunity of placing before this Houseand the country some of the facts in eon-neetion with railway construction and in-cidentally the Government's public wvorkspolicy generally as compared with the

condition of affairs ilia( existed previousto the Government taking control. Butwhile I feel grateful onl that aeone, I amnot prepared to agree with the hon. mem-ber when lie tried to make the House andcountry believe that lie was influencedwith a desire of doing something to ex-p'edite public works generally, and thatlie was niot in any way influenced by adesire to injure the Government onl partylines. Time hon. gentleman started oil by'sayin-

I have not tabled this niotion withthe idea of showing upl my politicalopponienits, either to prove that theyare consistent or inconsistent, or thatthey are. depar-ting fromn their platformpledges in anly way.

Then he finished up) his speech by stat-inig-

I hope hie (the Minister) will care-fully consider the mtatter and not thinkthat I am trying to niake a pointagainst him or that this is a partymove.

It is all very nice to start a motion with-sentiments of that description, and thensay a lot of bitter things during the cur-rency' of the speech and finish up withthe samne sentiment and expect people totake it on that face value. In order toarrive at an idea of the influence behindthle hon. gentleman, we have to take hisspeech as, a whole, and afte- all, hisspeech was a party one from start tofinish. Let uis just take some of the ex-pressions he used during his speech. Hestarted off by saing-

We cannot afford to let our countrystand still.

Not party !Hon. Frank Wilson: Do you call that

party; I do not.The MTYS TEE FOR WORKS; He

also said-The country will be broughit almost

to a standstill and not progress as itought,Hon. Frank Wilsom: Exactly.The MTMSTER. FOR WORKS: Then

again -The Public Works Department has

done practically nothing in the lasttwelve months.

924

[7 AUGUST, 1912.]12

Hon. Frank Wilson: Exactly.The -MINISTER FOR WORKS: Fur-

ther-We have a g-reat unemployed diffi-

culty in this State.Ron. Frank Wilson: Have not we?The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Then

he stated-We have only to look at the tabour

bureaus each morning to find hundredsof men waiting to find if they call geta chance to work.

Not party!Hlon. Frank Wilson: Of course it is

not.The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: He

also said-I venture to say he will never constructtwo hundred miles of railway duringthe first twelve months of his occupancyof his office depa rtmen tally.

Not party!Are we to keep) the country* back atidallow thle settlers to wear. out theirhecarts in hoping and waiting for tran-sit facilities?

Not party' !Because the caucus platform lays itdown that they shall follow the systemof departmental construction.

Not party!They have hardly commenced to con-struct railways yet.

Not p~arty!Hon. Frank Wilson: You had better

read my sp~eech.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I am

reading it just to show what little noticeone can take of the sentiments expressedat the otset by the lion, member. Hefurther said-

A fair start was made at the Mullewaend in view of the Legislative Councilelections a short time since. Ninemonths in office and not a thing doneunatil a Legislative Council electioncomes round and a Minister has to bereturned.

Not party!Hon. Flank Wilson: That is party I

admit; that is Your party.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The

motion was brought forward for two rea-sons, to Icy to discredit the Government's

railway construction work generally, andto try in an indirect manlnetr to involve themember for Narrogin-Williams in someremarks he had made. That was theinfluence behind the botn. member whenhe tabled his motion a;but, as usual, liecould not proceed with his motion, andcould not get material to justify the mor-,ing of the motion without misstatingfacts. He evidently had a poor case fromthe outset and realised- it: havting tojustify the tabling of the motion lherecognised he had to make a speech, andin order to build Lip a speech hie quotedvery extensively from some utterancesmade by some politician in Canada.

Hon. Frank Wilson :"Some" poli-tician ? A responsible 'Minister of theCrown.

The Al fXlSTEt? FOR WVORKS : He isa politician nevertheless.

Honl. F'ran k Wilson :Not "some" poli-tic inni: a "'very high" poeli tician.

The AXINISTEI. FOR WORKS: Well,we will say a very high politician fromCanada. itt I could not see whia t hear-i ng this speech had upon the motion be-fore the Chamber. I am quite preparedto admit that tlte sentiments expressed bythe Canadian Minister appealed to thehon. member, because it is one of thosespeeches the leader of the Oppositionglories in, one of those speeches of a"boom and burst" policy lie always gloriesin; consequently it naturally appealed tohim. The speech made by' the CanadianMinister wvms evidentlyv made with thedesire and intention of attractingr tjntm-grants to Canada. andl it is that sort ofspeech that ultimately does mnote harm toa country than good. because these "boomand burst" speeches paint pictures thatare never realised, and, in consequence,when the immigrant gets to the countryand finds that the statements made arenot borne out by actual facts, lie becomesdissatisfied, andi not only does lie leavethe country bitt lie influenc 'es others thatwould emigrate to the country not to gothere, It is speeches of that descriptionthat cause unemployed difficulties in varn-ouis parts of the world. Ministers go andmake these extravagant utterances andpeople are attracted in g-reat ntumbhhers

925

926 ASSEMBLY.]

anticipating great public works and greatprosperity, but their anticipations are notrecalised, with the result that -work is notfortheomina, and the country is facedwith the difficulty of finding employmentfor- the number of people so attracted.l want to show that (be utterances of thisCanadian Minister of the Crown, so ex-tensively quoted, were absolutely extrava-g-ant. and I also want to take this oppor-tun11ity of resenting this perpetual refer-ence to Canada as being a standard towhich we ought to aspire. .1 am gettingtired of this perpetual cry that Canada isthe country that is doing big things, thatCanada as a country is progressing andAtustralia is doing nothing in comparison.

Mr. George: Oh. no.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: "O9h,

no." the lion. member says; nieverthelesswhen Ihe leader of the Opposition wasquoting Canada so extensively, be wasapplauded; it was the one country wherethere was at progressive policy, the onlycountry doing great things. 'Y am pre-pared to rejoice with any lion. memberat progress in any part of the BritishDominions.; I am essentially a Britisher.and any part of the British Dominionsthat progresses has my best wishes; butone becomes tired when one's own countryis held uip in comparison, with a countrywhich, after all, is not up to the standardof Australia. In order to prove this Ipropose to give a few figures by way ofreply to the arguments advanced by theleader of the Opposition.

Hon. Frank Wilson: I did not makeany comparison.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS:- Youknew perfectly well you could not makea comnparison, but you undoubtedly heldCanada uip as evidence.

Hon. Frank Wilson: As an example.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Well,

as an example to be followed byAustralia. I want to prove it is (liereverse, and that instead of Australiafollowing CAnada,. Canada follows Aus-trala. For instance, a lot was madeabout Canada's immigration policy, butas a mnatter of fact the p~opulation ofCanada is decreasing. It may he newsto the lion. member.

The Minister fur Lands : It is not de-creasing-.

The AlliNISTER FOR WORKS: Atany rate it is not increasing. The posi-tion is this : the population of Canadais no0t iincreasing at the saine ratio as im-inigrants are going into Canada. Theargument advanced by the leader of theOpposition was that Canada was progress-ug- SiX every way owing to its immnigrationpolicy, but what I want to draw the at-tention of lion. members to is thie factthat the populatioii is not increasing inlp~roportion to the immigrants attractedto Canada. For instance, taking the fiveyears from 1907 to 1911, Canada attrac-ted immigration to the extent of 929,255.The leader of the O pposition said that in1910-11. quoting fromt Mr. Foster, theMinister referred to, the immigration toCanadal was 3534,000, but the official re-turns grive it as 311,084. There is anlillustration Of over-quoting the aettnllfacts in regard to immigration.

Hion. Frank Wilson : I only qu~otedthe Minister's statement.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : ThatIS5 ). but the hon. mnember used the argu-ment to SILow that Canada was going-ahead whereas Australia wvas not pro-g&ressing iii like proportionl.

Hon. Frank Wilson : No: [ did not.I ama ilot prepared to take your figures

asagainst his.The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Why~

did you use this speech at all?H oi. Frank Wilson : As an example

to you to get to work with your railway%const ruction. IThe M1INISTER FOR WORKS : Thereis no mis~take : (lie qunotation was made todis parage Western Australia.

Hon. Frank Wilson : No. only to dis-parage you.

The INISTER FOR WORKS : Thelion. member says be wants Canada to betaken as an example. Let uts see howCanada has been g-etting onl under theclass of politician the hon1. member quotesLet i's see the example he asks us tofollow. in Canada tlie popuilationi in 19191was 7.185.000: in 1911 the population, un-less ny figures are wrong. was 7.081,869.so in actual fact

926

[7 AUGUST, 191.2.]97

Hon. Frank Wilson :You are absolu-tely wrong.

The Minister for Lands : Those figuresshow rectification by the census.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS :Pobably I dlid not read too closely, andprobabdly the population previously wasover-estimiated, and this was a rectifica-tion of the figures. Nevertheless, we canleave these figures alone, and I wvill smythis, and Iam absolutely sound iii it,'that the population of Canada has notincreased in proportion to its immnigra-tion. When the hon. member was speak-ing I pointed out by wayi of interjectionthat it was no use quoting the numberof immigrants that go into a country un-less we take on the other side the numberof emigrants that leave it. We find, asR matter of fact, so far as Canada is con-cerned, that I was absolutely on soundgrounds, inasmuch as the population ofCanada has not increased in proportionto its immigration. Let us take anotherexample from the country we are sup-posed to follow, Canada is held up as anexample. Let us take Canada in com-parison with Australia in general p~ro-duction, and in general wealth. Take theexport of wheat. I have seen Canada re-fcrred to as the Empire's grana 'ry. Threexport of wheat from Canada in 1909was 49,137.44() bushels, whereas from Aus-tralia in the same year the export was31,549,493 bushels. Tn 1910 the exportof wheat from Canada was 49,741.350bushels odd. whereas from Australia inthe same y ear it was 47,761,890 bushels.So we see that we increased in Australiain one year from 31,000,000 bushels to47,000,000 bushels, whereas in Canadathe export was almost stationary.

Hon. Frank Wilson :You have to takethe flour they export as well.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Can-ada is referred to as the Empire's granaryand it is referred to as a great wheatproducer', and the hon. member has ledthis country to believe that Canada isprogressing in greater proportion thanAustralia.

Hon. Frank Wilson So it is: theproduction was 118,000.000 bushels lastyear.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS :Ifthe hon. member will have his flour, letus take the exports of Canada for 1909.They amounted to £C52,753,000. The Aus-tralian export iii the same year wasworth £65,388,000. In 1910 Canada's ex-port was £61,045,000 worth, and Auis-tralia's £74,500,000 worth. So, takingin the wheat and the flour referred to bythre lion. member, the export trade (IfAustralia is greater thnan that of Canada,[ihe example we are supposed to follow.

Mr. Moore :What about the wool?

The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: Leti's grive the gold. I think I have the woolalso. The value of tile gOld producedin Canada in 1909 was £1I,929,645. Thegold produced iii Australia in tlnat yearwas £1l,600,000. The wool exportedfrom Canada in 1910 was 2,320,746 lbs.and Australia in .1910 exported 665,76].887 lbs. There is '10 comparison whateverbetween the exports of the two countries.And so one could, go on. I do not proposeto w-eary the House with a lot of figureson the question. Tire facts ane 'ye do notwant to -follow the example of Canada.We want to continue wbat we have beendoing for years past, and I will be dis-tinctly disappointed unless Australia goeson leading the way and showing Canadawvhat to (1o in stead of trying to followtine Cannadia n example. The lender of theOpposit ion after (Ieahng, wit[h Canada.referred to the Eastern States and triedto make out that the attitnde of the LaborGovernments in New South Wales andSouth Aust raia invas out of sym pathywith the avowed policy of thne presentGovernmnt in reference to thne depart-men tanl consi rtction of public works. Andhie went on to say thint Oren Governmnent ofNewv South WVales let a contract to Smith& Tinoms antd afterwards took it fromthenm and did the won-k departmentally. Ido not know exactly' the point thne lion.neinberwa iited to make. but it is as wvellto clear tp the facts which are these. Itis true tliat Smith & Timis took a eon-tract for a railway in New South Walesexactly as they did recently in WesternAustralia, and the '- were unable to fulfilit owing to difificul ties which they' met.TInmediately they% were faced with these

927

928 [ASSEMBLY.]

troubles tbey appealed to thle Governmentof the day to relieve them of the con-tract. and in New South Wales satisfac-tory' arrangements were made, just assatisfactory arrangements were made inWestern Australia in reg-ard to the PortHedland-Marble Bar railway, with the ie-

stilt that they were relieved of the wtork,and] ii W'estern Australia to-day the PortHedland-'Marbie Bar line is being carriedout departmentally and satisfactorily.

".It. George: 1 will bet they got thebest of the deal.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Iquestion whether they did, because theywere met with difficulties they could notovercome, and they appealed to the Gov-erinment to relieve them of the contract.As long as everything is plain sailing, thecontractor will do the work, but imiuedi-ately hie is faced wsith difficulties and comn-plications. and when ability is required,then the State is called upon to take theburden. The leader of the Oppositionalso quoted South Australia aind] statedthat for a certain railway or railwayswhich the Government proposed to con-struct. tenders were called,' and after- thatit was decided to do the work depart-mentally. The Government started thework. and later on called upon contrac-tors who happend to be Smith and Tiinmsto carry out the work, and the leader ofthe Opposition used this as an illustra-tion that departniental work, so far asthat particular railway was concerned,was a failure. I am prepared to admitthat the hion. member u-as correct in stat-ing that the work was finished by a con-tractor after it had been started depart-mientallv, bitt the facts are that the Gov'-ernnient started the work on the under-standing that certain rates of pay wouldbe given to the workmen and that certainconditions were to he granted. Hardlyhad the work started. however, before themen approached the Government withwhat tile Government considered to beexorbitant demuands. The Governmentclaimed that the men's demands were un-reasonable and endeavoared to bringabout an understanding bitt failed, andrather than be hartrassed by the men whowere taking Anl unfair advantage, thc Gov-ernmenrt decided to complete the work by

contract. That is not evidence that thework could not be done successfully de-paritentally, but it is evidence that abody of men tried to take advantage ofthe Government and the Governimeiit,rather than give wvay to exorbitant de-iands, called upon contractors to coin-plete the work. So far as Western Aus-tralia is concerned, I aml happy to say wehave never met with difficulties of thatdescription. It is true that we have baddemnands fromt men employed by the Pub-lic Works Department, but I am g-lad tosay that we employ men who take a rea-sonable view of things and. as far as Ihave gone, up to date, I have had no ser-ious difficulty in arriving at -a fair andamicable understanding with those whomwe employ. We go along smoothly be-cause wise counsels prevail and becausethe mien are loyal to the undertakings theyenter into. Let as take another SouthAustralian illustration made by the leaderof the Opposition. The lion, membersaid that certain work was wanted ex-peditiously and] the Government. feelingthat it wa~s ur'gent, let it to a contractor.While that mighlt have been so, and I be-lieve it was so. let uts take the conditionsas they exist in Western Australia. Whenthe ]eader oif the Opposition was in powerhie wanted to build the Bullfinch railwayexpeditiously, and did not 1ivite contrac-tors to cari-y out the work. He knew fallwell that the depar-tmental constructionbad proved so satisfactory in WesternAustralia that lie determined to do it de.-partmentally, mid it "-as done very ex-peditiously' indeed. To get away fromCanada and the Eastern States,' and tocome right borne, the leader of the Op-position stated that the people were han-dicalpped owing to want of railway' faci-lities. I admnit that there are people whohave been suffer-ing for some- time fromthe want of railway facilities, bat I placethe full responsibility for that unsatis-factory state of affairs upon the shouldersof the present leader of the Opposition.t is he who is responsible. He has causedall this discontent amiongst a number ofpeople iii various parts of our great ag' ri-cultural areas. I want to ask thle leadeerof the Opposition who placed the seltdom-s

out in the Coweowingr and 'Mount Mlar-

928

[7 AUG~UST, 1912.1 .2

-shall areas. and who promised them rail-way facilities within a reasonable time?Who was it showed them on maps, rail-ways constructed ? Who told the peojple'of Lake Brown that if they wvent out arailway would be granted to them? Whotold the people out beyond Bolgart thatthe line would he extended within a rea-sonable time I The honourable gentlemanand his Government promised railwayfacilities to all these p~eople. and for.years past the people have been sufferingbecause those promises have never heenfulfilled. It has remained with the pre-.sent Government to carry out the pro-mises made to these settlers, anti the lea--der of the Opposition has now the au-,dacity to refer to the fact that the peopleare handicapped for the want of railwa 'yfacilities, when hie is the person respon-sible for the unsatisfactory state of af-fairs.

Hon,. Frank Wilson: Have you giventhem the Bolgart extension yet?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Theline is under survey to-day, and the Bill-will he introduced this session, and wvewill within a reasonable time carry outthe promise which the lion. member fail-ed to fulfl] during- the years lie was inoffice. Let me refer to some more people-who have been promised railway comn-miunicationi. There are the farmers atW1adderin and] those at Emn Hill andKirkenin. To these people the lion, mem-ber promised the same railway, althoughthey are 25 miles apai.t, and the people ofEmun Bill were to be served by the Wieke-pin-Mferredin line, and those at Kirkenin,almost 20 miles away, were to be servedby the same railway. These are peoplewho are dissatisfied to-day because thepiomises made by the leader of the Op-position and his friends have not beenfulfilled.

Hon. Frank Wilson: You have hungup the railway.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Whowas it built the Dowerin-Merredin lineand permnanently isolated for all time theunfortunate settlers in the YorkrakineareaI Who w-as responsible for that, andwho is crying out More to-day because ofthe want of railway facilities than those

unfortu nate settlers in the Yorkrakiniearea 9

The M1inister for Lands: And NorthBaandee.

The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: Yes.that is another area. The bltuder mad'ein connection with the Dowerin-Mlerred inline, and which isolated the Yorkrakiulepeople, also isolated the North Baundeepeople. All these are people who arecallingl out for railway faicilities, and theywere promised them by the hon. memberwho brings forward this motion. Theleader of the Opposition proceeded toqluote certain experiments that had beenmade in the different States in regard topublic works. I am not prepared to ad-mit that we want to go to Eastern Auts-tralia to learn anything in regard to ex-periments. It appears to me that theyare starting- experiments to find out hlowthey can obtain better results than theyhave obtained under the contract system.We, however, have gone through all theseexperiments. What they are doing to-daywe in Western Australia have alreadydone, and I venture to assert that afterthey have done experimenting in EasternAustralia they will come to the same con-clusion as we have arrived at: that if wewant good results and the work done well,we must do it ourselves and not trust tocontractors. Lot us take our results. Westarted experimenting in railway eon-struction. We tried contract and depart-mental work, and the result of the ex-periment has proved conclusively that thebest system for the State is undoubtedlydepartmental construction. Let ns takesome illustrations. The tender for theGoomalling-Dowerin line was £7,173, andthe work was done departmentally ait anactual cost of £6,162. On that line a sav-ing was effected of £1,011. The tenderfor the Wagin-Dumbleyong railway was£13,587, and it was built departmentallyfor £11,053, the saving to the State in thatcase being £2,834.

Mr. McDowall: floes that include ex-tras?

The MINISTER FOR WORKtS: Thetender would not include extras.

Mr. Dooley :Does that include allextras?

929

930 [ASSFAI3LY.3

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Well,(if course, the extras are not shown in thetenders, although, naturally, they are in-cluded in the actual cost. Let us take the]-atanning-Kojonup line. The tenderfor that was £21,089 and it cost depart-iiientally £17,334, or a saving to the Stateof £C3,755. Let us come to another line,the Mount Magnet-Black Range. The ten-der for that was £86,079, while the costdepartmentally was £71,460, or a savingto the State of ;C15,51.9.

Mr. George : WVere the specificationsthe same all through?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS:; I amnot prepared to say that it was on exactlyIlie same specification, hecause on manyoccasions we have improved on the speci-fications. The alterations when madewecre alterations made with a view ofgetting better results, and better work,and were not made with the object ofgetting inferior -work. One can safelysay that, speaking generally, the speci-fications we're the samie,. and that on prac-I ically every occasion when an alterationhas been made it was to the improvementof the line. In addition to saving £15,000on the lob in respect to this Mount Mag-net-Black Range railway, the net profitsof operating the line dluring the periodof construction aniounted to;£6,500. Thatis on one proposition alone. Then takethe Bridge town-WilIgarrup line.. Thet ender for that line was £51,765, while thedepartmental cost was £31,734, or a sav-ing to the State of £20,031. So we havegone through these experiments, tried thetwo systems, and found the one so satis-factory that the Ministry would havebeen absolutely disloyal had they notprofited by the example, by the work doneunder both systems, and carried out thewtork d epartm entaly. Let us take an-other illustration, namely, the Port Hed-land-Marble Bar railway. The estimatefor the construction of that line was£1,24,000 in rough figures, while the ten-der was one hundred and nineteen thous-and odd pounds. This railway was let toa contractor, but unquestionably thatcontractor, by the eviderrce since forth-comning, never intended to finish the line.

The line should never have been under-taken by contract

Hon. J. Miitchell :You settled uip withhim.

The MiN'LISTER FOR WORKS :Yes,I will deal with that directly. No doubtthis is the one line above all other lineswhich should have been done department-ally. It represented a new method ofconstruction ; it was in a country notgenerally known and one beset with dubf-culties. and it moost have been patentto the Minister, if hie had taken theslightest interest in his department, thatall sorts of difficuilties -would arise; andiimmediately difficulties arise the con-tractor starts to build up his claim forextras and delay' s. Fancy letting a rail-way fron;, Port Hedlond to Marble Barand undertaking to supply all sleepers!We know the difficulties of transit whichexisted then. Since that time, of course,the Government have begun to removethose difficulties; but there were 110 Statesteamers in those days, and we had totrLust to private enterprise, with the re-.suit that all sorts of difficulties croppeduip. It inust have been clear to anyone,taking an interest in the question that,great dilfficulties would have to be en-countered in regard to the delivery ofthose sleepers. It was only the first lotthat were got away to time, and im-mediately afterwards delays occurred,with the result that all sorts of claimswere put in for those delays, and thecontractor had to admit that he could noLfinish the line. Subsequently a claim ofsomething like £70,000 was put in bythe contractor for extras in respect tothat line, le had appealed to the Gov-erment to take over the construction andfinish the line. In the interests of theState I agreed, because I could see thatwe could obtain no idea as to -when theline would otherwise be finished. Thecountry was waiting for the line, and Ithought it was my duty to overcome thedifficulties, if it was at all possible; andconsequentlyv I said that if I could conicto ant understanding with the contractoi-and get him clean out Of it. I Would takethe job over, but not without a clearunderstanding. Thre contractor started

930

t7 AruUS, 1912.]91

off with a claim for £70,000. The depart-mental engineers entered into nego-tiations, and after some trouble theybrought him down to £36,000. The nego-tiations were conducted for some time andultimately I was appealed to, and, sittingin the manner of an arbitrator, f agreedthat the contractor should get £28,000 infull payment of his £70,000 claim, thatis to say, if bie agreed to walk right out.That was agreed to, and we -took the lineover aind linished it.

Mr. George: What dlid you get for the£128,000?1

The M IN]ISTER FOR WORKS: Cer-tain extras were admitted by the depart-nieat. So far as my memory serves, thedepartment admitted to £21,000,. and wefinilly settled at £28,000, M1r. TeesdaleSmith on his part, of course, claiming£70,000.

Mr. George: Then there was £21,000for engineers' mistakes?

Th MINSTR FOR WORKS:Niis not fair to put it that way. The linewas constructed on a new method, andcertain difficulties were encountered inthe construction, while alterations had tobe made. It was because of those altera-tions that the departmental engineers ad-mitted certain extras. Thle fact remainsthal the contractor admitted his inabilityto finish the ilne. He was encounteringall sorts of dilliculties, and immediately acontractor mneets with difficulties he comnesto the Government to overcome them. Inthis instance lie got us into a corner andthere was onlty one way to overcome it,namely, by~gettii'g rid of him. Within amonth or two afterwards the line wisfinished, and it is being successfully oper-ated to-day.

Mr. George: He cauight you onl the hop.The MIN[STER. FOR WORKS: He

caught this Government on the hop owingin the want of attention to this matter ontile part of the previous Administration.The member for Murray-Welling-tonwould be the last man in the world to leta wvork of that description to a contractor.It is a country* beset with difficulties, andwhen you have difficulties to face youmust keel) away front the contractor,otherwise lie will get the best of the deal.

Now, not only have we had these experi-ments in regard to the departmental costof railway construction as compared Wiiththle teniders submitted by contractors,. butwe have albo conducted other experi-ments in reslpect to departmental work.For instance, the member for Mturray-Wellington decided, when Comtmissionerof Rai lways, td have a very exacting ex-periment made in regard to thle construe-tioit of rolling stock in the Governmentworkshops. He had brake vans, car-riages and trucks constructed and sub-mnitted' to the most searching tests. Theactual costs of the departmental workwere compared with what could have beendone by contract, and the lion, gentlemanadmitted that the quality of the workdone by thne department was equal to, ifnot better thai , that done by contractors,while the cost was considerably less.

Mr. George: That is correct.

The MINISTER FORZ WORKS: Of,course. 'I -am always correct. Not oil[haveL we proved that we can do railwayconstruction mare cheaply and betterthan it canl be done by contract,but we .have proved also that wecain construct rolling stock with simi-lar resuijts. Nor have we limitedour experiunitse to rolling stock, for wehave tried the constructio'n of buildingsdepartmentally' . We hiad a fairly largejob at the Claremont asylum. Time aftertimie iii thin' Chtamnber hnave I challengedthep lin. gentleman to have an inquirymande as to the result of thle work donedepiartinentally at the Claremont asyllum.but oC coulrse hie was riot prepared toorder arty such investigation, becaule heknew that tine experiment had been hightlysnnceessfud. But after having- thatt experi-en1ce lie let further additions to the build-ing by contract. T wouild like anyone

withi a practical knowledge of work to goto that institution to-day and compare thework done departmentally wvith the worksince done by contract. I can assurehon. ulembcu there is no comparison be-tween thle lwd.' The departmental work isbetter and efici per. There is no questionabout it; that particula r work is an evi-dence of thle success of departmental con-struiction as far as buildings are corn-

931

032 [ASSEMBLY.]

cerued. We had a test made also withthe construction, departmentally, of por-lions of the Fremantle jetty, as comparedwith the contractor's prices, and, if mem-ory serves me aright. in regoil to that ex-periment, £10,000 was saved to the State,while the work done was altogethersuperior to the work we would have gotdone by contract. So, going right throughthe experiments made in the State, itwill be seen that we have got beyond theexperimental stage; that our experimentshave proved that the system of depart-mental construction is Soundest and best.We now come to the question of want ofexpedition. We are supposed to beslow--

Hon. Frank Wilson: Slow as a funeral.The MtNISTERI FOR WORKS: The

bon. gentleman, with his extravagant, ir-responsible misstatements went so far asto say that we have done nothing during10 months.

Hon. Frank Wilson: Nothing at all.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The

hon. gentleman said he would venture toprophesy -that 200 miles of railway wouldnot be constructed during this Govern-ment's first 12 mtonths tenure of office. Iwill take uip that challenge and undertaketo do more than 200 miles of railwaywithin that period. Time will show as towhat we will do in the first 12 months.

Hon. J. Mitchell: You have Only twomonths left.

The MIUNISTER FOR WORKS: Yes,I know. The hion. gentleman stated thathe had never adopted the policy, if policyit can be catlled, of ac~epting 200 milesper annuim as the maximum of which thedepartment was capable Yet it seemsthat that proportion w1kas generally recog-zused as the maximum, 'and that -the lion.gentleman could not rise to the occasionto the extent of doing even the quantityof -work he admitted the department wascapable of turning out; because in 1908-9he handed over to the Working Railwaysonly 102 miles of railway. In 1909-10 heagain handed over 102 miles of railway.So there were two successive years in-which he could not get even as high asthe 200 miles, but only a little over 100miles. In 1910-i1, with the elections- corn-

ing along, he maniaged to get as much as-232 miles constructed. Even in that yearhe did not make IIp for the leeway of thetwo previous years. But let LIS Come tothe year when nothing has been done.Take the 19111-12 yea r. We have comi-pleted 2&51 mailes of railway.

Hon. Frank 'Wilson: What nonsense.The MIINISTER FOR WORKS: We

have handed over 2851/2 miles to theWorking_ Railways, as compared with thebon. gentleman's record of 282 miles. Ofcourse the hon. gentleman will say thatwe have reaped the advantage of his ad-ministration.

Hon. FrankL Wilson: Stick to facts.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: If'

the lion. member had stuck to facts, hiewould not squirm so munch to-night, butbecause hie made misstatements and I amgiving figures to disprove them, lie doesnot like it.

Hon. Frank Wilson: When did thePremier go down and opeil the railways.and when wyere the contracts let?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Wehave been in office for the greater portionof 1911-J2 anti we have done 2S5 milesof railwayv as compared with the bon.gentlemian-'s best, 232 moiles. But I donot wvant that to he taken as our best; Iventure to say that we will do better andwe will do it wheni it cannot be said thatthe late Government contrihuted to ourwork in any shape or form. In October,1911, there were 378 wiles of railwayunder construction; of this total there has,been completed and handed over to theworking railways 2851/2 miles. In coin-parison with that total of 37S miles, wehave in progress to-day 451 miles ofrailway. The present Government whoare allowing the country to stand still andwho are doing nothing in railway cuon-struction are building to-day 45G miles ofrailway when the bon. gentleman did alittle over 200 miles, and yet the hon. me-m-her had the audacity to boast of his rail-way construction as compared with thatof the lpresent Government. Time hon.gentleman said exactly what I expectedhim to sayt:-thnt we could not claim tohave handed over 25S miles of nmilwvbecause his Government had contributed]

932

[7 AuGusT, 1012.]13

-o the total and that they) had dlone a lotbefore leaving office, of which we arereaping the benefit. In order to meet that-statement, I instructed the Engineer-in-Chief to prepare for me a return givingIthe amount of expenditure in each of thelast nine months of the last financialYear as compared with the expenditure inthe corresponding monthis of the p~re-

-ceding year, and the return panis out asfollows :-Th October . 1910. the late Gov-ernmient spent £22,101 on railway con-.struction ; rails and fastenings ran into£6,877, ma king a total of £28,979; inOctober, 1911, the railway construction-of the present Government ran into£35,839 as against the preceding Govern-mient's £22,000 odd.

Hon. J. Mitchell : Is that day labour,or contract?

The MINI1STER FOR WORKS:-Mostly dlay labour. Rails and fasten-ings for October, 19%1, amounted to£-2,564, making a total expenditure bythe present Government in that monthof £38,403 as against £E28,979 expendedby tlie previous Government in the car-r-esponding month of the preceding year.The respective amounts expended by thepreceding Government and the presentGovernment in the other months were-N-ovember, 1910-construction £:23,219,rails and fastenings £3,548, total £26,767;-November, 1911-construction £47,336,r-ails and fastenings L27,758, total £75;094.December , 1910-e-onsfrnetion £294,135,-rails and fastenings £1,087, total £25,223;Dlecember, 1911-construcation £38,219,i-ails and fastenings £332, total £E38,551.January, _1911-c-onstruction £1L1,938, railsand fastenings £C2,354, total £14,202; Jan-uary, 1912-construction £C27,943, railsand fastenings £85, total £28,023. February, 1911--construction 21,752., railsand fastenings £16,636, total £38,29;9February, 1912-construction £30,521,,rails and fastenigs £26.849, total 57,370.March, 1911-construction £25,351, railsand fastenings £16,619, total £41,969.;March, 1912-construction £61,866, rails-and fastenings £C33,053, total £94,934.April, 1911-construction £-31,042, railsand fastenings £C11,143, total 942,185 -April, 1912-construction £36,209, rails

and fastenings ;C7,070, total £;43,279. May,1911-construction £17,804, rails andfastenings £13,361, total £E31,166; May,1912-c<onstruction £C33,114, rails and fas-tenvings £8,422, total £41,536. June, 1911-onstruction £84,335, rails and fasten-ings £8,037, total £92,373; Julne, 19 12-construection £80,152, rails and fastenings£45,677, total £125,829. In that monththe Government were using- more sleepersor more rails and fastenings; in otherwords, we were doing more completionof railways and less of mere earthworks.Let us now look at the totals: For thlenine months, from October 1910 to June1911, the total expenditure was £E341,347,and for the nine months from October1911. to June 1912 'the expenditurewas £543,029 ; in other words, thepresent Government spent on railway con-struction over £200,000 more than the lateGovernment spent for the nine monthspreceding, and yet the leader of the Op-position rises in this Chamber and statesthat we have done nothing in regard, torailway construction and that the countryis standing still. If the country is stand-ing still under the present Administrationwhat was the state of the country underthle Administration of the hon. gentle-man? Rails and fastenings fluctuate, andpossibly it may he said that we paid morefor rails and fastenings, -which absorbedso much of the difference that the actualconstruction was not done and the wholeof the increase in expend'itur-e was due tomaterial; but in order that there might beno mrisu ndersta nding on this point I askedthe Engineer-in-Chief to run out the costof rails and, fastenings and the cost ofconstruction, and we find thiat in actualconstruction the present Governmentspent over £129,000 more than was spentby the late Government. I quite antici-pate that the hon. gentleman will rise andstate that we expended more money buthare not got any result. That return, Imay admit, some-what startled me afterhearing the hon. gentleman's speech. Irecognise that he is prone to extravaganceand prone to make misstatements, but Inever dreamed that hie would have theaudacity to make the statement that wewere doing nothing and had not -ou-

031

034 [ASSBAMBLY.]

sliucted any railways When I receivedflit return 1 immediately thought thatsonc explaniation was necessary, but Ifound that the figures were correct,. andiii order that there might be no inis-understanding I wrote to [lie Engineer.in-Chief as follows:-

With reference to thle discussion inParliament concerning day labour, areturn has been prepared showing' tilieamount of money expended fromn Octo-her, 1910, to June. 1911, and fromOctober, 1i11, to June. 1912, and Iflnd that thle Government have ex-liended considerably more money dur-ing thle latter period. In viewv of thisI should like to know whether this hasbeenl due to any* extent to increaseof wages and if .so, to what extent, anldalso 'if voii are satisfied that the cx-penditunre of tbis money is an absoluteindication of an increased quantity of'work done. You will understand tlintit will be urged that tine mere spendingof money cannot be taken as an indica-tion of tile work performled, aind Iwould like to have your opinlionl.

'flit wvas a perfectly honest representationto make, because I thought that the moneyexpended by this Ooveriiment was so,

y real in comparison with thie expenditureof thle late Government that it would beuirge1 that tine mere expenditure of moneywas not any indication of work done.

ilom. Frank 'Wilson: 'What reply didyout expect to a minute like that"*The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I

expected from the Engineer-in-Chief amnore honest reply* than I wiould expectfrom thle hon. gentleman. The Engin-eer-in-Cliief, in reply, pointed out whatwas anl actual fact-that allowingz for thlesettlement in reference to the P ort fled-land-Mlarble Bar railway, and allowingfor the number oif sleepers that we hadhewn departmentally, the railway coni-sirnetion of tile present Government aver-aged 16 mites per month more than thatof the late Government: and yet the hon,miember who gsks what sort of reply Iwould expect to get from the Engineer-in-Chief in reply to a minute such asI sent to him, is the one who risesin his placee to say that nothing hasbeen done by the present Government in

regard to railway construction, that thecountry is stagnant, and that nothing hasbeen done in reference to public works.That returnj speaks volumes and showsthat we are going ahead more than the-lion. gentlemnan did, and that our ex-p~enditulre is considerably in excess ofwhat the late Government spent. Thleposition is that we are doing at present16 miles per month more than thle Gov-ermnent of the hon, gentleman "'etcdoinir. I am not prepared to say thatIhat increase will be maintained; I donot think it is possible to maintain it,because, after all, that would be qnenormous increase in the 12 months, butit, does show that instead of there beingany want of expedition in regard torailway construction, we are going aheadunder great pressure and accomplishinga very great deal more than one wouldanticipate, realising the condition ofa ffairs. in the State.

M~r. George: How many miles do youexpect to do per year9

The INITSTOR FOR WORKS: I donot know, but this I am going to say,the hon. gentleman says he does notthink I will do 200. 1 will take thIi tup and g-uarantee I will do more. Asto how much more, I will let the futnresp eak.

'Mr. George: You should have someidea,

The MINISTER FORIWOIRKS : 1am not going to anticipate any morethan to say I ant perfectly satisfiedwith the pace we are making. We aredoing more than I expected, and I ammore tihan pleased with the work whichis being done by our railway construe-tion1 engineers. I uan proud of the workthey are doing.

Hon. Frank Wilson: The country isnot satisfied.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Iwill come to that before I have finished.[t is not the country which is dissatisfied.The bon. member knows the country ismore thtan satisfied, and because of thathe tries to discredit the work which isbeing done.

Mr. Heitman: Mr. Wilson cannotspeak for the country.

934

[7 AUGUST, 1912.] 3

Eon. Frank Wilson: Oh, yes, whatabout the deputations?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS Ofcourse there are political deputationstoo, and we will come to the Villimin-ning-Kondinin line before I have fin-ished. Let us take the position ofaffairs in June, 1911, as compared withthe position of affairs in June, 1.912.The lion, gentleman had more incen-tive to do more than, I have. Hehad in 1911 the Brookton-Ktinjin lineauthorised by Parliament; he had theQuairading-Nunaijin line autborised byParliament; he had the Merredin-Wieke-pill line authorised by Parliament;and lie had the Wongan Hills-Mul-lewa line authorised, hy Parliament.In ]line. 1911, not the slightestthing had been done in regard to them.He -had four lines unstarted and now hecomes along and says we should be doingmore. Yet he had four lines which hehad never touched. We have to-day thelBrookton-IKunjin line, and the Yillimin-ning-Kondini tle niot actuallyv under con-struction, so we have two lines, one ofwhIich is held in abeyance pending a de-cision in connection with the TralnsAustralian railway. The only line notstarted is the Yilliminning-Kondininline. I1 have one line uustarted and thelion, member had four. He was notdoing nearly as much as I am doing; yetlie had four lines promised to thePeople, lines for which the people, as herightly said, were crying out. Then thebon. gentlemian insinuated, or ratherstated definitely, that the work done de-partmentally was not up to the standard,and that the work done by contractors wassuperior. I do not say those were thewords he actually used, but that is whatlie conveyed, because he made an allegedquotation from remarks made by thePremier. As a matter of fact, all linesaure passed by the Working Railways. Ifthey are really not up to standard-I donot say uip to the standard line becausean agricultural line is not a standardline-but unless they' are up to the truestandard of agricultural construction,the Working Railways will not take themover. The member for Murray-Welling-

ton knows that we are more exact; withdepartmental work because we can getmore from departmental work than wecanl get from a contractor. When theyexamine the work done departmentallythey are very exacting indeed, and theydemand that certain things should he

*done over and above the specificationsi,a demand which they could not maintainin regard to at contractor. As a matterof fact the stanidard of construction de-partmnentally is superior to the standardof construction under contract, and theWorking Railways see to it every time.

Mr. George : We are more concernedas to whether we are going to get therailways.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Thehon. gentleman stated that the Wickepiarailway is scarcely commenced. To provehow inaccurate he is in several state-ments, I will point out seriatim the exactposition wvith regard to the various state-ments he made. The Wickepin-Merredinline, be said, is scarcely commenced. Thefacts are that 17 miles of clearing are comn-plete, 15 miles of earthwork are complete,and about 20) miles of sleepers are on theground. Yet the lion, member says it isnothing, but that 24 miles of railway con-struction on the lunihle~ung extensiontook them eleven months. I have done 15miles of earthwork and 17 miles of clear-ing-

Mr. George :In nine months.The MINISTER FOR WORKS : The

hion. gentleman knows there was no ma-terial to start sooner because his party,when in power, failed to order it. Theyhad the authority of Parliament longenough, and the line should have beenconstructed years ago. It took five sur-veys before they could start that tine.I wvant, however, to pin the statementdown to the leader of the Opposition,who said the line was scarcely com-menced.

Hon. Frank Wilson : Did not you geta wire from the unemployed 9

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Thehon. member is side-tracking again. Iwish he would sit quietly ayj take hisgruel. The facts are that there are 17miles of railway complete, 15 miles of

935

936 [ASSEMBLY.1

earthwork complete and about 20 milesof sleepers on the ground, and yet he saysthe work is scarcely commenced. That is,howvever, at one eall. namely, on the M~er-redin section, but we started this line atboth ends in order to make uip for thetime lost by the lion. gentleman. At theWickepin end 15 miles of clearing and7 miles of earthwork Are complete, andthere are about 9 miles of sleepers on theground.

Hon. Frank Wilson : That is a lot innine months.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : It istoo much for the lion. member and hisparty. Because they recognise that weare doing considerably more than theylike and that the people are realising it,they are beginning to squirm.

lion. Frank Wilson : You have bad tenmonths.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Ihave done this in ten months, but the hon.gentleman was four years, and did noth-ing.

Hon. Frank Wilson : Nonsense.The INISTER FOR WORKS : Let

uts take another railway. The leader ofthe Opposition said the Quairading-Nun-ajin line has scarcely been commenced,and that they are just tinkering with it.What are the facts ? The line "'as corn-mnenced on the 7th May and at presentnearly the whole of the line is clearedand grubbed. As a matter of fact, I wasat Nunajin on Saturday and Sunday lastand the actual earthworks are right intoNunajin, a distance of 40 miles. This re-turn was made up just after the bon.member spoke, and states that 30 milesof earthwork are complete, all thesleepers within a few thousand are onthe ground, 20 miles of rails have beendelivered and platelaying will commenceimmediately. Yet, according to the bon.member, we are only tinkering with theline. I want to say, as I told the hon.gentleman and the country, that the Gov-ernnicnt are going to put up a record withregard to railway construction. Why didI say that? Because I recognised that the.previous Administration bad not donejustice to -the people. They had placedpeople on the land and promised them

railways and then had not fulfilled theirpromises. The people were crying out forrailway facilities and the Government de-termined to give them these facilities.I said we would put tip a record in rail-way construction and we are doing it. TheQunirading-Nunaint line would he a re-cord outside of the Bullfinch line, and thieleast said nbout the Bullfinch line thesoonest mended. Outside the Bullfinchline the Qunirading-Nunajin line will bea record in railway construction.

Hon. J. Mitchell : You have had teamonths.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : Ac-cording to the hon. member the Marra-dong-Hotham railway Was started in Feb-ruary last, and is not yet finished. Whatare the facts? The Man-adong-Hothamrailway, since authorised to Orossman,making a length of 35 miles. is a heavyline, as the lion. gentleman knows it wvasslow progress under his control.

Air. George: It is not heavy there.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS : It isheavy where we are to-day, and particu-larly heavy. Once we get beyond Cross-man, then it becomes fairly light and lessexpenditutre and greater expedition willbe shown. It is heavy in clearing andearthworks and has taken longer thanthe majority of lines. The position in re-gird to this line is that 33 miles of clear-iug are complete, and 27 miles of earth-works and bridges are complete; besidesplatelaying has been cardied out to 21miles and 18 miles ballasted. That is therailway in regard to which the hon, mem-her led the country to believe nothingis being done. Then we come to the mostgross mistake he made, and I might sayhis speech was one continual mistatementof fact. He said the little extension ofthe Upper Darling Range railway, aboutone and a half miles in length, was com-menced in March last and is not yet fin-ished. This is a line right at his verydoor in a district wvhich he ought to knowvery well indeed, seeing he was workingin the locality for many years. He oughtto know all about this railway, and thisis the sort of information he gives thecountry in regard to something at his

936

[7 AUGUST, 1912.] 3

very door. If hie is so far oit in regardto a matter of this kind, what notice canhe taker of his information on mattersso far removed as the other railways?Taking this railway right at his door, itwas commenced on the 9tht MAarch andcompleted and handed over to the WVork-ing Railways on the 2nd July. The hoii.gentlemian is reading at the present mo-ment and thinking too, I assume. Al-though only a short line, there is a longbank at the commencement, and a heavybank at the end besides several cut-tgs of some, size. It is not com-

parable with the surface railwaysin the wheat belt. The cost was£3,186. He states that the line wascommienced in MAardi and is iiot yet fin.ished. Yet at the timie hie spoke theline was finished and lie should haveknown it. The lion, member further statedthat the Wagin-Dumbleynngi line took 15months to construct. The facts are these-and there is no line that the 'lion, gen-tleman should know more about so far asconstruction is concerned than this. Hewas responsible for the starting of thisline, and it was largely eoiistructed uinderhis control. It is 24 miles iii length. Itwas commenced on the 17th May, 1911.and completed and handed over to theWorking Railways on the 3rd 'May, 1912.having taken eleven months to completethe 24 miles. The delay in completionwas due almost entirely to the difficultyexperienced in getting material. I havestated, time and time again in this Cham-ber, that a blunder was made in regardto the Thimbleyning extension. What wasthe blunder? It was the blunder theymade in regard to various railways thatput up the cost of railway construc-tion in this State considerably. namely,of starting a railway before they wereready, and starting earthworks beforethey had any sleepers and rails. In re-gard to this particular line-

H1on. Frank Wilson: You have donethat with the Quairading line.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Onthe Quairading-Npnmajin line the rails arebeing laid to-day and there are 48 milesin that line. We started in May and wewill finish before the end of the year.The bon. member took on 24 miles of the

flumbleyung extension. He started inMay and it took him Luntil the followingMay to do that 24 miles. But I am goingto do 48 miles ii' half the time. Yet thisis the hon. member who talks about therailway construction lie dlid. After gettingaway from railway construction he wenton to the Mlount tawle y sewer and re-ferred to the fact that this work was notyet completed, and that want of expedi-tionl was shown again. But the bon,member was largely responsible in re-gard to this particnlar work. I am pre-pared to admit that it has been going onpariticulai ly slowly, bit[ it will continue togo Onl slowly in the interest of the State.~We have. hig difficulties to overcome withreg-ard to th e sewer in the matter of dis-putes and differences of opinion with thePerth City Council. Until the latter cometo a definite decision in regard to somematters I am not prepared to pu~sh onwith thle construction of this work. Itis going on slowly hecause to expedite itwould not lie in the best interests of theState. It is another illustration, like theDumbleytng line, of work being startedbefore the responsibility undertaken wasfairly understood. Then lie got away fromthat and got to the Midland Junction-workshops and pointed out that we wereimportiiig engines when we ought to beconstructing them in the State, and hewould like to place the responsibility forthis importation on the shoulders of 'thepresent Governient. But what are thefacts? We came into office and foundthat the Working Railways had not suffi-cient rolling stock to cope with the de-mands of the State, and we also furtherfound that it was impossible, owing to thewant of foresight on the part of the pre-viousq Governmeiit, to give sufficient spacefor us to do this work in the MidlandJunction workshops as we desired; batrather than hang the State up, ratherthan inconvenience the agriculturists,rather than inconveniencee the sawmillproprietors and others that requiredrolling stock and required to have theirproduce shifted, we sent to England forrolling stock, and we will do it again until,we are in, a position to construct the workas we desire to do it A the Midland June-tion workshops.

937

938 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. George :You got them made bycontract. That is what wve desire in con-nection with these railways.

The MINISTER FOR WO'RKS:- Whyis it we cannot do this work at the _Mid-land Junction workshops? Simply be-cause of the bilunders made by the pre-vious Administration. They let a con-tract for the extension of the shops. Thelion, member made a great mouthful ofthe fact that he was extending the shops.What did lie do? Exactly the same as hieblundered along iii connection with rail-way construction and sewerage works. Hestarted again without actually going intothe full[ requirements. He let a contractfor buildig the walls of the building, butforgol altogether to make preparation for'the roofing; and for months and monthspast the walls have been standing,propped tip so that they will not falldown, waiting for roofing-. In otherwords, lie pilt the cart before the horse.Instead of getting the material ready toeomiplete the building, lie started with thewalls and had no roofing to put on them;and they have been waiting ever since forthe roofing. I am proud to say we did geta naove onl when we took office to try tocomplete these buildings, and within rca-sonaible time we will have them ready;and when we have the room we will putin the extra machinery, put on extra men,and put in extra work, and be in the posi-[ion we want to he in of constructing ourown engines and rolling stock, and doingit under conditions that will permit ofthie work being done cheaper than wec~ould get it from outside. I am sorry tosay we have been compelled to deparL.from this policy because of want of fore-sight and want of expedition on the partof our predecessors.

Hon. J. Mitchell: Have you got theroof oni in the last ten months?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Wehaive thie roof going -now. If we hadbeen in office we would have had the roof-ing ready when the walls were going up:3wre would not have waited to order theroofing until after the walls were finished.

Hon. Frank Wilson: That is a seriousreflection oil the officers.

The NINIST6ER FOR WORKS: TheMinister for Railways informs me thatan extra £60,000 is being spent to com-plete the work, so that we can get therolling stock work done as I have alreadystated.

H~on. Frank Wilson :Who stoppedthe roof going onl?

The MIlNISTER FOR WORKS: It isnot at question of who stopped it; it is aquestion of who neglected to get the cashfor it.

lon. Frank Wilson :You are blamingyourI own officers.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Herewe have an ex-Minister of the Crown try, -ig to cover himself by saying his officerlswere responsible. I want to know whowvas in charge of the Public Works De-pariment, and wvho was in charge ofWorking Railways. I admit the officerstake a g-reat responsibility, but I claimthe present Ministers are doing work thatwas neglected by previous Minisers.

Hon. Frank Wilson : Have youordered the roofing?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: No.Of course the lion, member ordered theroofing , but it wvas after the wvalls wereup. But we will have the work -aecorn-plished in reasonable time. We knowthat the neglect on the part of the pro-vious Administration in not or~dering theroofing and getting it ready before theystarted the wvalls has made that buildingexpensive and prevented us constructingrolling stock in that particular centre.The bon. member also evidently got sonmelittle information, and referred to thefact that the Engineer-in-Chief walscalled upon to do too much work. Hesaid wve should have the F ngineer-ini-Chief as consulting engineer so that liewould he available for the Governmentonl big matters instead of having his litimetaken up in various matters of detail. Iam inclined to think the hion. membermade those remarks because he knew ofthe alteration proceeding in the adminis-t ra tion of the Public Works Department.As a matter of fact, while hie talkedabout it, it was being put into actualpractice. The Government are calliiig foran engineer to take charge of our water

938

[7 AUGUST, 1912.393

supplies. We intend to pay a goodsalary, so as to get the best possible man.We will have the Engineer-in-Chiief asconsulting engineer, and have a good en-gineer to look after the big irrigationproposals of -the Government, and thewater supply for the metrolpolitaln area,and other matters generally. We havethe water supplies under one administra-tion to-day, but to do it Properly we needto have a good engineer in charge withthe Engineer-in-Chief as consulting en-gineer, instead of taking ulp his time indetails as to-day.

Mr. George: Have you not a good man.you could put in charge of that

The MINISTER FOR WORK-:S ; Ido not say we have not, but applicationshave to be called, and we have to get thebest man offering. We are doing thesame in regard to harbours and rivers.We are retiring the present engineer,who has reached the age of 64. Thoughhe is still a competent man and has donegood work for the country, he has arrivedat the age when it is impossible for him togive the requiired attention to large worksthat must be Lnda-taken in the near fu-tlure; and in order to get them done pro-perly we are calling for applications foran- engineer for hiarhours and rivers, sothat, again, we can do as the hon. membersuggests, make the Engineer-in-Chief aconsulting engineer in regard to harboursand rivers and other works, instead oftaking uip his time in details. The lion.member preaches it; we Put it into actualpractice. T'hen the hion. member alsowent on to refer to the unemployed onthe goldfields. I admit that a large num-her of men are unemnployed on our gold-fields, but I am not prepared to admitthere is not work for the British unemn-ployed on* the fields, if they had -the op-portunity of working as they should inthe mining industry. The facts are thatthe British workmen of to-day are being-east out among the unemployed in orderto make room for Italians and Austrians.It is no use the bon. member saying thisnnemployment is because of the policyof the 'Public Works Department or thepolicy of the Government. It is becausiehis particular friends, the Chamber of

1133]

Mines, are keeping out the British work-men, who have had their homes on thefields for years, and have thus provedthemselves absoluitely competent to do thework, and are putting in their placesItalians and Austrians. It is because ofthis state of affairs that we have thatdifficulty unfortunately on the goldfieldsto-day. We recognise the difficulty isthere, and, as with all other diffldulti-,sthat face this Government, we are goingto overcome it. This Chamber is to beasked to pass a Bill so that we can dealwith this undesirable state of affairs andgive British workmen an opportunity ofworking in the mining industry, and ofnot being ostracised and east oat to makeroom for Italians -and Austians. Thlebon, member said that a number of menwere unemployed in the city. There issomie difficulty in that regard, but Iam proud -to say we are overcoming itto a very great extent. To-day wehave employed in the Public WorksDepartment and on public works over3,000 iln, and we are g1oing alongat a great rate, doing works of alldescriptions that should have beea under-taken years ago if we are to do what waspromised to the various settlers in vari-ouis jparts of the State. Then. the hoia.member got on to the question of myinconsistency. Re says that the Ministerspeaks of departmental construction, andactually practises the opposite by lettingcontracts. I admit that contracts havebeen let, and I say that contracts willcontinue to be let as long as I can getfair competition. Small works in scat-tered and various parts of the State 'where men are situated who -have theplant, undoubtedly can he done cheaperby those men than they can be dune de-partmentally. But I want to sound thisword of warning, that if the state ofaffairs goes oni much longer that I amexperiencing in connection with our pettycontr-acts-of only one contractor tender-ing, I am going to tell the contractors therewill be a lot more work done department-ally. Unless I can get some competitionand tenders nearer to the departmentalestimates, I am going to extend depart-mental construction to petty contracts as

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well as large contracts. Downi at Albanythe other day we called for tenders. Onetender was received, and it w'as largelyin excess of the departmental estimate,consequently the work had to he donedepartmentally. As I say. competitionis not keen to-day. I do not know thereason for it, but we are receiving inmany cases only one tender for a. work.

Mr. George: I could tell you why it is.The mnen are going out of the business.

The MI1NISTER FOR WORKS : Thereare plenty of men about. I cannot under-stand thle reason myself; ho bt whateverthe reason is, I am going to see that theState gets a fair deal, and if these con-tractors will not give me fair prices, thepetty contracts will be done department-ally, the samec as the other big contractswill be done while the present Governmentarc in office. Then, in conclusion, thelion, member wants to k-now. no dobt,as to why we have not started one rail-way. He had four in June, and hie wasonly doing half as much as we are doing.Yet he was "doing wonderfully'' as com-pared with what we arc doing. I haveone railway-of course there are tworailways, but I have explained the diff-culties in connection with the Brooktonline. As I was saying. I have one rail-way, the Yillimining-Kondinin line. It isurged that it should be started because adeputation waited on mnc asking that theconstruction be expedited. I would askthe hon. member how imany deputationswaited on him to urge the construction ofthe Qnutireding-Nnnajin line;' how manywaited on him in connection with theWickepin-Merredin line;- how manywaited on him in connection with manylines authorised by Parliament that hehad not put under construction? Rut be-cause there is one deputation in regardto one line that has only just been an-thorised. practically speaking, as com-pared with the authorisations he had , heclaims that we are worthy of censure.Nowv what are the facts?7 A deputtonwaited on me. I conveyed to that depu-tation that their line would be startedfaster,-with the exception always of the'r;illlflnch line-than any Other line that

was authorised by Parliament. it has notbeen the practice of waiting- until alllines are finished to get authorisations to.go on with more. The practice has beento anticipate the construction of linesbefore the lines previously authorisedwere actually finished, and I told the de-putation in question that their line -wouldbe started earlier than had been the prac-tice in Western Australia previously, andi n order to be on saf e ground, I informedthat deputation that the line would becommnenced before March. As to theexact date I was not in a position to de-clare it. To show the progress that isbeing made, when at Nunajin-and thehion. member for, York will bear me out-I told themn there that the Quairading-Nunajin line would he laid in February,but we find now that we will be ready lbe-fore the end of the year. This clearlyindicates that I was taking- a conservativeview of the position. Exactly the samnewill. be experienced in connection withthe Yillimiiniug-Kondinin line, and I haveno hesitation in saying that we will startthat also earlier than I anticipated. Iam not in a position to give the exactdate, but seeing the progress we are mak-ing- with the Quairading-Nunajin and theWickepin-3ferredi n lines, these peoplewill not have to wait very long. Thequestion of railway construction is not al-together expedited by the letting of con-tracts. For instance, I could start theYillinin ing-Rondiuiun li ne just the same asthe leader of the Oppositinn started theDumbleyung extension, and carried out24 miles in 11 months. This was becausehe started his construction before hie had-material. If I were to let a contract forthis particular line I would let it with thesupplyV Of rails and fastenings being theresponsibility of tire Government, and Imight state that the important questionjust now is that of getting the material.We could have got o n very much betterif we could have had thie material earlier,and if the leader of thle Opposition hadattended to his work when hie was inoffee we might have been able to makea start with the Villimining-Kondininline earlier. When the material arrives

we shall he read.,; t) make a start, and

940

[8 AuousT, 1912.) 4

when we do start there shall he expedi-tion it conuection with this particularline, and T think it will becarried out more rapidly than,any other line, with the exception, ofcourse, of the pet Bullfinch, which wasconstructed by the hon, gentleman op-posite. Thle leadcr of the OppositionIbroughit forward this motion to try anddiscredit the Government. He submittedit for the reason that, in replying to thedeputation of the Yillimining-Kondininsettlers, I said that the trouble was notthat to-day we were not doing enoughi,the trouble was that we were doing toomuch, and the lion, gentlemen oppositeare beginning to see that we are doingmore than they were doing, they are be-ginning to see that we are movingo ontand that we are carrying out puiblicworks in a systematic and practical man-ner, and that we are getting better resultsthan they ever trot; and it because ofour expedition and the comparative wantof expedition on their part, that they say"we must move motions, and we mustlhave deputations, otherwise the Govern-maent will be there for all time because ofthe good work they are doing by con-structing the railways that we promised,and which promises we failed to fulfil."

On mnotion by Hon. J1. Mitchell, debateadtjourned.

71o use adjourned ot 10.5 p.m.

Thuirsday, 81h Autgust, 1912.

Zis: Tremwsya Purchase, in.......Prevention of Cruelty to animals, In.Health Act Amendment, In.White Phosphorus Matches Frohlbiloo, 3n.

postponed....... ....Motion: Proportional Re'presentatilon, Hare-

Spence method

PAGE941941941

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Time PRESIDENT took the Chair at4.30 p~. and read prayers.

BILLS (3) -FIRiST RE]ADING.

I.,T ramnways Purelhase.2, Prevention of Cinelty to Animals.3. Health Act Amendment.

Received from the Legislative Assembly.

MO0TIO0N-'PROPORTIONAL BIE-PRESENTATION.

Ifare-Spence Method,Debate resumed from the 6th Auguist

on the following motion of the Hon. D0. G.O-awlr-"T hat in the opinion of thisHouse the proportional representationsystem on the Hare-Spence method shionldbe adopted in the Parliamentary electoralsystem of this State."

Hon. J. F. CULLEN (South-East):There will, I think, be general agreementwith the mover of the motion that Parlia-meat should represent as far as possible

.tlie mninds of the whole of the people, orrather should represent at least the pre-vailing thought of the principal partiesand sections of the people. Tite old idealof rule by the best, regardless as towhether the best represented the prevail-ing thnught or not, has been considerablymodified. It has been found that thisideal rested on the iden that the peopleshould he given what is best for them, notwhat they think might be best for them.That rule has been so far mnodified thatnow the aim scems to he to make Parlia-rments up out of the best fromn each sec-tion and each party. It is assumed thatthe people of all parties will endeavourtn senid their best men Jo represent themin Pa-rliament. All will agree that themost effective and successful Legislature

941