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Military Police Complaints Commission
FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGSheld pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence
Act, in the matter of file 2011-004
LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SUR FYNEStenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sur la
défense nationale pour le dossier 2011-004
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGSheld at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario
on Wednesday, April 11, 2012mercredi, le 11 avril 2012
VOLUME 8
BEFORE:
Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson
Ms. Raymonde Cléroux Registrar
APPEARANCES:
Ms. Dana Cernacek Commission counselMr. Rob FairchildMs. Beth Alexander
Ms Elizabeth Richards For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout,Ms Korinda McLaine LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin,
Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand,Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret=d) William H. Garrick
WO (ret=d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret=d) Barry Watson
Col (ret=d) Michel W. Drapeau For Mr. Shaun FynesMr. Joshua Juneau and Mrs. Sheila Fynes
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. © 2012
200 Elgin Street, Suite 1105 333 Bay Street, Suite 900
Ottawa, Ontario K2P 1L5 Toronto, Ontario M5H 2T4
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(ii)
INDEX
PAGE
PREVIOUSLY SWORN: TRENT HISCOCK 1Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Cernacek 1Cross-Examination by Colonel Drapeau 23
SWORN: TREVOR CADIEU 52Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Cernacek 52Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Cernacek 98Cross-examination by Drapeau 192
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101112131415
(iii)
LIST OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
P-26 Document index book for Lieutenant-Colonel Cadieu. 52
P-27 Diagram of Edmonton garrison. 99
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10
Ottawa, Ontario
--- Upon resuming on Wednesday, April 11, 2012
at 9:35 a.m.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
MS. CERNACEK: Good morning, Mr.
Chairman. We are continuing this morning with
Warrant Hiscock.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
PREVIOUSLY SWORN: TRENT HISCOCK
CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. Good morning, Warrant
Hiscock. Thank you for coming back. I believe
yesterday we broke off when you were discussing the
deployment in 2007.
A. Right. Could you just
refresh my memory exactly what the question was?
Q. We were discussing your
knowledge of Corporal Langridge since the
Afghanistan deployment, where you deployed with
him. Then you went through when you had known him
afterward, and then you came to the time where you
were deploying in 2007, and you were explaining how
it was different from before.
A. Right. At the end of 2006,
just to refresh on how the war had changed at that
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point, from 2004, it had moved into a different
phase, and the Government had decided that it was
going to deploy tanks overseas.
At the end of 2006, the only tank
squadron Canada had was deployed, so obviously they
were going to be placed into that tank squadron.
A lot of replacements, myself and
Stu, even though we were Recce Squadron soldiers,
Reconnaissance Squadron soldiers, we were moved
over to the tank squadron to train for the next
deployment, which would have been February 2007.
That training started at the end
of 2006. I was in 1 Troop, and Stu was in 2 Troop.
Stu was placed, at that time, as a troop leader's
loader. I think the best way to describe that
would be like a floor supervisor.
How things would work, he would be
the fifth in the line of command of that troop, but
he would also be the first guy -- we kind of call
it the troop whip. He is the guy who would make
the soldiers do all their maintenance. He would be
the one they would go to if they had any problems,
if that helps explain what his job would have been.
Normally, that is a junior master
corporal's position. Stu at that time was only a
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corporal, and he wasn't qualified to be a master
corporal, so for him to do that job is definitely a
steep learning curve. Unfortunately, too, the same
as in my case, my tank experience was very limited
because we were reconnaissance soldiers.
He did not have any tank
experience, so for him, it was definitely a
difficult time because he didn't have the
experience, and he didn't have the training to
fulfill that role.
There are a number of things. He
was not a good fit.
Q. Can I just stop you for a
moment? When you say it was a difficult time for
him, is this your assessment after the fact or did
you discuss this with him at the time?
A. I don't remember discussing
it with him at the time, but I know -- because I
have come up through the exact same system that
every armoured soldier has come up through -- there
are certain times in your career that you find
difficult if you don't have the training.
I know this was a difficult time
for him because he didn't have that training, and
he didn't have the experience on that type of
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system on that type of platform.
Although he had some leadership
skills, but now he has probably two or three times
as many people he would be responsible for, and he
would have different responsibilities, so I think
the best way to put it would be that people would
come to him for advice, and he wouldn't have the
knowledge to give that advice. It was no doubt
difficult for him.
It wasn't a good fit in that
troop. I would say he was there for maybe a month
or a month and a half.
Q. Did you say it was not a good
fit?
A. It was not a good fit. They
didn't like him, and I don't think he liked them.
Actually, I should say I know he didn't like them,
because we did have a conversation about that, and
he did say he did not like the people in his troop.
Q. How do you know they did not
like him?
A. I can't give you an example,
but I had a feeling that they didn't like him.
That is the only way I can describe it.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit
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more of that conversation you had with Corporal
Langridge?
A. One of the conversations I
had -- this was after -- I am not sure, exactly, if
he removed himself from this tour or if they said,
"This is not a good fit for you. You are not going
overseas."
Shortly thereafter, my gunner had
a positive test for cannabis, so he was removed
from the tour. At this point, Stu had already been
removed out of the tour. At that point, in my call
sign, in my tank, I had an empty position, and I
asked Stu if he would want to fill that position,
because he and I had worked together. I knew him.
I knew he had a few issues. I didn't know how bad
they were at that time.
I felt that if he came with me
overseas, we would be a good fit. At that point he
said no. He didn't want to go back overseas in the
current squadron. I said fine and left it at that.
Q. What you were offering was a
different troop from the one that he was not having
a good fit with?
A. That is right. He would have
worked directly for me. As it turned out, he said
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he didn't want to do it, and the sergeant major at
the time or someone at that time got me a different
gunner, who happened to be Stu's serve op (ph),
Corporal Shawn Sullivan (ph). He was Stu's serve
op on the first tour. He ended up being my gunner
for this tour.
I say that was January 2007. We
deployed in February 2008. At that time, Stu
didn't deploy with us. However, he was placed on a
PLQ course and then continued his training.
That course would have been the
course that he would have required to do a better
job at the tank troop leader's loader's position,
because that was a course he would need to be a
master corporal, and that would give him some
additional skills to do that job.
Q. Do I understand properly that
he basically declined to go with you in a position
that was above his skills?
A. No. His position with me
would have been a normal gunner's position. It
would not have been a troop loader's position.
That position would have been -- in some ways, if
you look at it as maybe a demotion, but the other
side of the coin would be that he would get
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additional skills. He would go overseas, and he
would get additional skills on the tank so when he
did step into that next role as the troop leader's
loader, he would understand that platform better.
Q. Am I understanding properly
that you deployed in February?
A. Yes.
Q. You were away for how long?
A. Seven months.
Q. You came back?
A. I came back to Canada in the
middle of September 2007, went on leave, and then
immediately after that, I taught on another course.
Q. How did you know about
Corporal Langridge doing this PLQ course in March,
you said, or after you deployed?
A. He started it in February,
and he finished it in March. The reason why I
found out about it is that naturally, this was a
pretty big thing in the regiment after this
happened, after his death in 2008. Of course, all
soldiers talk about this stuff, and this happened
to come up that he was on this course at the time.
Q. This week, we received a
document from your counsel. It is P-22, document
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number 1318, and I believe you were given this
document.
A. This one here?
Q. Yes. My intention is not to
discuss the contents in detail with you. Rather,
what my understanding is is that you provided this
document to us through your counsel.
A. Correct.
Q. I would like to clarify the
circumstances of you acquiring this document.
A. Sure. Where I now work is in
WATC, which is in Wainwright, Alberta. That is the
Western Area Training Centre. I specifically work
on a number of different courses. One of the
courses I work on is PLQs. I am an instructor on a
number of them.
Let me break the PLQ system down
so as I explain it, you will understand a little
better. It is basically broken up into six
different sections, modulars. Each one is
something different. For example, the first mod
part of it is a PT mod. A master corporal will
understand how to give group PT to troops.
The second mod is like
instruction. This is so they can teach things like
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weapons classes.
Q. PT stands for?
A. Physical training. The third
one is a range mod, so they understand the duties
and responsibilities on a range as a master
corporal. It is all based on being that next rank,
that Stu would have been a master corporal.
Because I work there, I know the
policies and procedures that are in place at WATC.
While we were there, another member of the regiment
had mentioned to me that he was on a course.
Generally in all courses that come
to WATC, like a leadership course, which is what a
PLQ course is, all the candidates will have to
write things like autobiographies, and it gives a
good insight into their state of mind at that time.
Generally speaking, they will list
any problems that they have so you can understand
better what their problems are and sometimes maybe
tailor or change a little bit of training so they
can be successful in this course.
An example of that may be -- let's
say a soldier has a shoulder injury, and he can't
lift or carry more than, say, 40 pounds in a
rucksack. You can make some modifications so he
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may finish that course correctly and still -- if
you understand what I am saying.
The policy at WATC is that when
everybody shows up, they have to do a handwritten
autobiography, and there is some directive of what
has to be in there. Generally speaking, they ask
that if you have any medical issues, you list them.
You list other things, too. There are a number of
other documents that are in there. We keep these
documents for five years.
Q. Where do you keep them?
A. They are under our clerk's
control. I can't really answer where she keeps
them all. I know they are locked up in different
lockers, but they are under her control.
Q. Basically, the course is held
outside of the regular regiment of the soldier. Do
I understand that properly?
A. Yes.
Q. Basically, this document
would not be with his regiment but where the PLQ
course is held?
A. Correct. That document will
stay there for five years after the completion of
the course.
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One reason we keep them for five
years is that a member may do part of a course and
then is sent home for whatever reason. He will
come back, and we can then look at that document
and say, "You have done A, B, and C, so we will
credit you for A, B, and C, so you won't have to
redo that," and there are other reasons, too.
In this particular case, about a
week or so ago, one of the members had mentioned to
me that he had actually been on a PLQ course with
Sergeant Bowden, which then triggered my memory
that he had gone on this course.
Whenever someone goes on a PLQ
course, a career course, generally speaking,
everyone in the regiment knows about it. At that
point, I remembered that he had gone on a course.
I then asked our clerk if she could locate this
file to provide to you today or provide to you last
week, which she was able to do.
Q. I see also the first page of
this document is a personal emergency notification
form. I understand you keep this with the rest,
aside from the regimental communication?
A. Yes. The whole purpose of
that form, though, is that if a soldier while at
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WATC -- keep in mind that we do have soldiers come
from everywhere. We have soldiers come from the
States to take these courses. We have soldiers
come from Europe. They come from everywhere.
The main reason why we have that
particular form is just that if a soldier is, say,
injured or hospitalized, then without having to
call back to their home unit, you can quickly
inform the next of kin that something has happened
to him. In this case, the people he has put down
are listed.
Q. I suggest we come back to
when you come back from your deployment in
Afghanistan in 2007. What are your next encounters
with and knowledge of Corporal Langridge?
A. After I came back, obviously
I went on leave for a while. When I came back off
leave, I went and taught on a PLQ course
immediately after.
As soon as that course ended -- it
was the end of November 2007 -- I then was placed
into Headquarters Squadron. Shortly thereafter, if
I remember correctly, it was the Wednesday before
leave. This is when we get into the whole issue of
the suicide watch in December 2007.
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The way I remember what happened
that particular day -- and please keep in mind that
this is only a ten-minute conversation at that time
-- was myself and Sergeant Bolger (ph) were working
on the floor with the soldiers.
Warrant Officer Boudar, now Master
Warrant Officer Boudar, came up to us and said, "We
have to put a suicide watch on Langridge for about
the next week. He can't be left alone for 24/7
until he sees his counsellors."
Sergeant Boudar, at that point, he
left and left it up to me and Sergeant Bolger,
another sergeant at the time, to decide how we were
going to do this.
Because we didn't know when the
end of that time was going to happen, and in a few
days, the soldiers were going to be going on leave,
some of them had already booked flights and such.
We quickly ran through different scenarios.
Obviously, we didn't want to tell anybody they had
to cancel their flight from going home to see their
family.
We were looking at names for five
or ten minutes, trying to come up with a list of
names that were possible to do this action, and
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after about that time, Corporal Rodney Bartlett
came up to us and said he was willing to take Stu
home. He and his wife would stay with him for the
next however long, 24/7, and make sure he made his
appointment.
I then went back to Warrant Boudar
and asked him if that was acceptable. He said yes.
I am assuming he checked it out with the RSM. I
don't know, but he did come back later and say that
was acceptable, and that was the end of that
conversation in reference to him.
Q. I would like the name of the
person who offered to have him at home.
A. Corporal Rodney Bartlett.
THE CHAIRPERSON: When was this?
THE WITNESS: December 2007.
MS. CERNACEK:
Q. It was Warrant Officer
Boudar?
A. Yes.
Q. When Warrant Officer Boudar
came to you and asked that this suicide watch be
put, how did you receive this order, meaning that
you just told us what you knew of Corporal
Langridge until then, and then suddenly, this order
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is given to you about a suicide watch.
What did you make of that? How
did you react? I would say it is sort of at odds
with what you were telling us about him until then.
A. True. It is a little bit at
odds. I had heard other things that Stu was having
issues with alcohol. I knew that at least a year
prior, so maybe I made the assumption that this is
alcohol related. At that point, I don't remember
if I knew about his drug issues, but I definitely
knew about alcohol issues.
Honestly, I don't know how I felt
in relation to Stu about this incident.
Q. Did you meet Corporal
Langridge in this time frame?
A. No.
Q. Afterwards, when was the next
time that you actually met him?
A. The next time I remember
meeting him was in March 2008. I think it was the
Wednesday before his death. I don't remember the
exact date, but it could have been the Thursday or
Friday.
Q. His death was on a Saturday.
A. Yes.
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Q. On the 15th, so it could have
been between the 12th and the 14th?
A. Yes. I think it was the
12th, but I am not sure. This was less than a
five-minute conversation. I ran into him at the RQ
shop. I was cutting through, and at that time, he
said to me -- it was him and two other soldiers.
In the RQ shop, they have a number of different
cages. These cages are probably four feet wide or
so and 15 feet long, 20 feet high. It is a metal
cage. There are five or six of them.
The RQ had given Stu one of these
cages to put all of his stuff in. There were a
number of boxes in there. Probably 20 or 30 boxes.
Off the top of my head, I am not sure. They were
moving these boxes around. I don't know if they
were putting them in or taking them out. It was
Stu and two other soldiers who were doing this. I
think one of the other soldiers was Corporal Johnny
Rohmer, but I'm not sure.
As I was cutting through, I saw
Stu there. I said, "How is it going?" He goes,
"Do you want any of this stuff?" That is exactly
what he said. He said that and he handed me
something. I think it was his laptop, but I am not
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sure. Obviously, I said no.
He goes, "I am giving all this
stuff away. Anything you want?" I took a look
over and said, "No thanks, Stu. I will talk to you
later," and that was the end of that conversation.
The next time I saw him was the
Saturday on the morning of his death.
Q. Besides the contents of this
conversation, what sense did you get of Stuart?
A. I thought, "That was weird,"
and then carried on with my day.
Q. When you compare meeting him
on this day in the RQ shop and then on the 15th,
how do you compare the two?
A. The day I met him in the RQ
shop, he was happy-go-lucky. Again, this is a
two-minute conversation. Then on the morning I met
him on the 15th, he seemed tired, and he wasn't his
normal happy-go-lucky self, the Stu I remember.
Q. When you met him in the RQ
shop, was that during the day?
A. Yes, about 2:30 in the
afternoon.
Q. Do I understand that he was
not working then?
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A. He was in uniform. I don't
know exactly what his job was that day, in terms of
his responsibilities, but I do know that he was in
the RQ shop in uniform, moving some of his stuff
around.
Q. Just let me back up a little
bit to the suicide watch in December. You
mentioned it quickly. I just want to be certain.
You were asked to watch him 24/7?
A. Yes. Warrant Boudar said
24/7 until his next counsellor meeting. I didn't
know when that meeting was. I believe it was going
to be about a week, so that would push it into
everybody's leave.
Q. Did you know the
circumstances? Why was the watch ordered? Did you
know anything about that?
A. No, or if they did mention
it, I do not remember now.
Q. Was there any anything
particular that you were told about the watch? How
it was supposed to go? Anything in particular
compared to other watches that you would have done?
Or was it a clear concept to you, what was asked of
you?
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A. I think it was a clear
concept that he was to be watched 24/7. If
anything else was told to me, I do not remember
now.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You said Warrant
Officer Boudar?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Master Warrant
Officer Boudar now, sir.
MS. CERNACEK:
Q. Looking back, you lived
through the 15th of March close to the events, and
you knew Corporal Langridge fairly. Looking back,
would you have seen any signs of what would have
happened?
A. In hindsight?
Q. Yes.
A. In hindsight, you are right.
Giving all your belongings away seems kind of
strange. His actions that morning, again, seem
kind of strange.
Q. At the time, did you receive
any suicide prevention training in order to look
for such signs?
A. Yes. Before redeployment,
they were doing some suicide training. It has
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evolved since that time. I think at that time, it
was probably about a two-hour class.
Q. What did you learn in that
training?
A. Looking back, obviously, some
of the signs: Giving all your possessions away,
being overly helpful. Case in point, cleaning up
walks and stuff like that. Obviously, those are
some of the issues that do come up.
Q. I believe you testified at
the BOI?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. We won't get into your
testimony. I would just like to know how it was
organized. How operationally-wise or
procedurally-wise did you get there? Did you get
questions in advance? How did it come together?
A. I don't remember how
everything came together. All I do remember is
that I received an email saying that they were
going to have a Board of Inquiry. That was a month
or two prior to it.
I was told where and when to
report. I did. When I got there, they gave me a
list of questions before the inquiry, half an hour
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or so before. If I remember correctly, it was
about 12 questions. They said, "These are the
questions we are going to ask you. If you don't
remember, you don't remember, but just so you are
not surprised when we ask you."
I had about a half hour to look
over the questions. It was probably done in ten
minutes, I guess. I don't remember exactly how
long it took. They only asked me basically those
12 questions and maybe one or two different
questions that led from those 12 questions, and
that was the end of it.
Q. You were interviewed by the
NIS. You mentioned that. Did you speak about
going to the NIS on the 18th with someone prior to
going?
A. Yes. On the 17th, the two
NIS soldiers -- Master Corporal Ritco, and I don't
remember who the other one was. They came to the
regiment. They met me in the foyer not far from
where the duty centre was. He gave me his card,
and he said, "Let's set up an appointment to talk
about this." I said, "Yes. Name the time and
place." It would be the next day, the next
afternoon, so the 18th, around 1430-ish, I guess,
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is when the interview started.
Obviously I told my chain of
command where I was going to be during that time,
and on the 17th, I don't remember if I also
informed the RSM because that would have been
around the same time that I met with the RSM on the
weekend.
Q. Was it the same meeting with
the RSM that you mentioned in your testimony
yesterday?
A. Yes.
Q. Would that have been before
the NIS interview or afterwards?
A. It would have been before the
NIS interview, but it may have been after I had met
with the two NIS individuals who came to the
regiment to set up an appointment with me.
Q. When these MPs came to the
regiment to set up the appointment, did they give
you any instructions?
A. They did, but I don't
remember what they were now.
Q. Did you have any contact with
NIS or other MPs after your interview?
A. Not that I can remember.
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Q. There is one document in the
book. It is tab 2, which we haven't discussed up
to now. Have you seen this document before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. What can you tell us about
it?
A. If I remember correctly, in
the duty centre, there was a corkboard, and this
document was pinned to the corkboard, and it just
says as per direction, the duty driver is going to
drive Corporal Langridge to all his medical
appointments and drop him off and come pick him up
when he is done.
Q. Did you handle this document
at any moment?
A. I don't remember if I did.
MS. CERNACEK: Those are my
questions, I believe. Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Q. Good morning to you.
A. Good morning, sir.
Q. We just covered when you were
on the PL course. You said that candidates have to
fill out a biography of some sort, handwritten. Do
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they have a choice in filling this out?
A. No, they have to.
Q. You mentioned also that the
document itself also asked them to list their
medical issues. Do they have a choice?
A. Yes. There is a guideline,
which I do not have. Medical issues all have to be
listed on there. Obviously, there could be some
privacy concerns.
However, if it is a medical issue
that is going to impede you on the course,
obviously we ask that you would list or give some
direction so the staff will know that there is an
issue that they may have to be aware of.
Q. What is the school doing with
this document? What is the use of it?
A. Basically what happens is to
inform certain members of the staff. Let's take a
PLQ course, for example, that Stu would have been
on.
You fill out this document, and
the only people who would normally see this
document would be the section commander, the
section 2IC, and then normally the course officer.
The course warrant may or may not
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look at it if there is a big issue. The purpose
behind that is if someone identifies an issue --
let's say, for example, he identifies that he has a
home issue with his wife that may require him to
leave quickly. Now we have identified that fact,
so if his wife calls, it's not a big surprise to us
that he might have to leave halfway through the
training.
Another medical issue may be --
say your wife is eight months pregnant. She is
probably going to give birth during this course.
You may say, "My wife is going to
give birth, but this course is important to me. I
am going to stay here and do this course. Unless
there is a medical reason why, I am not going to be
home for my birth." The staff know that, so if
there is an issue, he may have to leave and go
home.
Q. If I understand it right,
Corporal Langridge, to use him as an example, not
only has to provide information about his own
medical issue, but if there were an issue with a
member of his family, he would also be expected to
disclose that?
A. If there is an issue that
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would impact him on the course, we would ask that.
Again, medical issues do not have to be placed in
there, but honestly, if it is going to affect the
course or something may help you get by the course
because you tell us, then it's a good idea to put
it in there.
Q. It doesn't have to be
medical. It could be marital, financial?
A. Exactly. Any type of reason
you think might affect you doing this course, then
you should list it.
Q. I am going to take you back
to March 15, 2008. On that day, if I understand
your testimony correctly, you acted first and
foremost the duty officer and the duty sergeant?
A. Correct.
Q. As a duty officer in this
kind of function, I would submit that you were
speaking for the commanding officer during his
absence. That is why the (inaudible) position. Is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. As a duty sergeant, you would
be speaking for the RSM?
A. Yes, you could say that.
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Q. A very powerful, pretty
significant appointment, isn't it?
A. Yes. That said, though,
there are parameters. I am not going to sign
contracts for the colonel.
Q. But on that day, given an
emergency or given something else, you speak with a
loud voice. You speak with authority?
A. For sure.
Q. On that day, the 15th of
March, I think your testimony both yesterday and
today indicated you were aware of the issues facing
Stuart, both marital and possibly addiction to
alcohol. You were also aware he was suffering from
PTSD. At least, he was claiming he was suffering
from PTSD.
A. He didn't claim that he was
suffering from PTSD. I made that assumption.
Q. Were you alone in the
regiment making that assumption?
A. I can't speak for what other
people thought.
Q. Would that have been
discussed with your peers at the sergeants' mess or
conference, whatever? Would Langridge be a subject
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of discussion, particularly possibly being a victim
of PTSD?
A. I do not remember ever
talking about Corporal Langridge in that aspect,
that he was suffering from PTSD, before his death.
Q. Was PTSD a big issue in the
regiment in those years?
A. I think it is. It is not
just the regiment. It is within the army. There
are a number of soldiers who are suffering from
PTSD, and I believe, in my opinion, that there are
a number of soldiers who are exaggerating their
facts to claim benefits.
Q. In the regiment -- I am
asking for your opinion; I am not going to hold you
to it -- would there be some soldiers, a number of
soldiers? Because you have been to Afghanistan and
back, and you have been to Bosnia. Would it be one
or two or ten or 20 or 40 or 50?
A. I am not sure. I think
probably you are looking at maybe ten to a dozen.
Q. At any given time. During
your testimony, you also observed that Stuart might
have been -- you referred to it again -- faking
PTSD in order to gain a financial benefit. That
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was your opinion. Was there anybody else in the
regiment who may have felt the same way?
A. I am not sure. Not
necessarily Stu's case, but I know a lot of NCOs do
think that there are soldiers who do fake PTSD to
gain benefits.
Q. Do you think, for instance,
that Master Corporal Fitzpatrick was faking it?
A. No, I did not say that.
Q. You thought at any given time
that he might be faking it?
A. No.
Q. What brings you to a
conclusion in your own mind that somebody may be
faking it as opposed to somebody else not faking
it? What are the criteria that you would use?
A. My criteria -- again, I am
not a doctor -- is their actions. For example, if
a soldier actively comes to work, goes to his
appointments, and tries to reintegrate himself back
into the regiment, that speaks a lot to me.
He may have an issue, but he is
trying to deal with it, and he wants to fix himself
by coming to work every day. That is how you fix
yourself. You don't fix yourself by sitting at
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home watching Oprah.
Q. Looking back -- insight is
always a powerful force -- do you think today that
Stuart would have been faking it on the 15th?
A. I do not think Stuart
suffered from PTSD.
Q. You said during your
testimony that Stuart committed a selfish act
because he committed suicide on the very day there
was a funeral of a fellow soldier coming back from
Afghanistan, and you also said that you discussed
this with your peers and officers. You said this
yesterday during your testimony.
Are you able to name anyone you
would have discussed this with?
A. Off the top of my head, no,
but I did discuss it with a number of people.
Q. You said specifically
yesterday some of your peers, senior NCOs, and
officers. With officers, I presume you don't speak
every day to a commanding officer, and you wouldn't
be having this kind of discussion with them, but
with more junior officers, you could.
In your range of individuals with
whom you have regular contact, would there be one
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or two of these that you remember?
A. Not exactly, but I am sure
that I have a number of friends.
Q. That is what I am getting at.
A. I can probably give you a
list of all my friends, and I bet that if you asked
them, 60 percent would say we talked about it.
Sergeant Bolger, for example, I know quite well. I
am sure he and I probably talked about it because
we worked closely together.
Q. What about Captain
Lubiniecki?
A. Captain Lubiniecki, no.
Because he was the adjutant, I didn't actually see
him a lot. In that case, I can say no, I did not
talk to him about that.
Q. But they were officers. You
just don't remember who that would be?
A. Yes, but I know Captain
Lubiniecki was not one of them.
Q. On the morning of March 15,
you said you had a brief discussion or conversation
with Stuart. During that particular discussion,
when the subject of PTSD came up, using your words,
you had a sigh, you rolled your eyes, and basically
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a lot of negativity towards that. Do you think
this had any effect at all on his mood for the rest
of the day?
A. That I don't know, but the
actual word "PTSD" did not come up. He described
his symptoms, and I made the assumption that he was
going to claim PTSD.
Q. Knowing what you know today
and what has occurred as a result of all that and
the additional training that you have had since
then -- four years have passed by. You have grown
and matured and so forth. I presume you also
attended what you refer to as intermediate
leadership course, given that you are a warrant
officer now. Would you do things differently now
than you did then?
A. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Of course I would do things differently because at
the end of the day, Stuart did commit suicide, so
not only did we lose a soldier, but we lost all the
resources that we put into that soldier.
Q. What would you do
differently?
A. I am not sure exactly what I
would do differently, but I definitely would have
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made some stronger, robust conditions on him.
For example, looking back, yes, he
went to the shacks every two hours. I am not sure
exactly how many times he did it. He said he was
doing his laundry. It doesn't take you six hours
to do your laundry. I definitely would have
watched him a lot more closely.
Q. Let me ask you the reverse
side of the question. It is not so much what you
would do differently, but what would you not do
that you had done?
A. What would I not do? I am
not sure.
Q. You would still have made the
comments about PTSD to him?
A. I don't believe Stu had PTSD.
Q. You still would have made the
comments and be negative about it?
A. Yes.
Q. Knowing the mood he was in
and knowing, according to you, you felt strange and
you had been given a warning a couple of days
before that he wanted to give his things away?
A. True, but again, if you go
back to that time before, I thought that was
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strange, but please keep in mind that soldiers
sometimes do give stuff away when they don't need
it anymore. They will give things away.
Q. Has anybody tried to give you
a computer?
A. No. I did think that was
strange. Like I say, I am not sure it was a
computer.
All I remember is that it was
about the size of a computer. It was black. He
handed it to me. He went, "Here. Do you want
this?" I didn't even grab it. I said no, and then
he said, "Anything here you want?" I am not even
100 percent sure it was a computer. It could have
been something different. It was the size, shape,
and colour of a laptop, but I am not sure it was a
laptop.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
MS. MCLAINE: I do not have any
questions. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Before I ask for
re-exam, I want you to try to help me out. It is
just on locations. A lot of this hasn't been
talked about yet. I want to get into my own head.
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Your duty office. You explained it. I think you
said it is an H-hut, a typical H.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: It is in an H
format, and the duty office was in the middle of
the H.
THE WITNESS: Would you like me to
draw you a diagram, sir?
THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I am just
trying to --
THE WITNESS: You are right. It
is basically an H.
THE CHAIRPERSON: It is like the
old H-huts on the bases, or is it larger than that?
THE WITNESS: It is larger than
that, but in the shape of an H. The duty centre is
in the middle, the crosspiece.
THE CHAIRPERSON: That is where
the duty centre is. The Defaulter's Room in
relation to your duty centre is where?
THE WITNESS: Right at the duty
centre, just kind of in behind the duty centre --
as you walk into the duty centre itself, a small
hallway goes to the back, where the duty staff
sleep. In that little hallway is a room off to the
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side on the left.
THE CHAIRPERSON: How far away is
the defaulters? Is there one room? Two rooms?
THE WITNESS: One room.
THE CHAIRPERSON: How far is that
Defaulter's Room from the duty office?
THE WITNESS: Five metres.
THE CHAIRPERSON: When you were
there, you were there for how many days? Just the
one?
THE WITNESS: Yes, just that day.
THE CHAIRPERSON: The night before
you were there, do you know where Corporal
Langridge slept?
THE WITNESS: He slept in the duty
room, or I was told he slept in that duty room.
Sorry, in the Defaulter's Room.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Each night that
he was there, is that where he would sleep?
THE WITNESS: That is where he was
supposed to sleep until other arrangements were
made.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You made two
phone calls to try to rise or awake the corporal.
Correct?
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THE WITNESS: No, sir. I made
three.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Three phone
calls. Did you phone a hard line, a regimental
line?
THE WITNESS: I used a regimental
line to call him, but it was his cell phone that
was called.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You called his
cell phone. Why would you call his cell phone?
THE WITNESS: That was the number
he provided us with.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you have
known where he was if he had answered that cell
phone?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE CHAIRPERSON: At the time, how
would you know where to send somebody to wake him?
THE WITNESS: Other than the fact
that on the sign-up sheet where he listed where he
was going, that would be the only way I would know
for sure.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Was he sleeping
in -- that was in tab 2, I believe?
MS. CERNACEK: Tab 1.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Was he sleeping
in the shacks during the day?
THE WITNESS: No. In a normal
working day, he would be at work, but at night, he
would be sleeping in the Defaulter's Room. He had
a room in the single quarters, the shacks, where he
could do things like his laundry and stuff like
that while he was waiting, but in those rooms,
there are beds.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Were you
assuming he was sleeping there?
THE WITNESS: I made that
assumption that he was sleeping.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Essentially he
had two rooms?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but the room in
the shack wasn't really his room. If it was his
room, he would have to pay for it. It was a room
assigned to the regiment that we could use when
soldiers come in. We would put them in that room,
and they would have to pay for that, for their
rations and quarters.
As a favour, the way I understand
it, we had this key, but he was using this room as
a temporary spot while he was waiting to do his
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laundry.
THE CHAIRPERSON: When I look at
the sign-in sheet, he is at the shacks every day.
In this particular day, pretty much most of the
time. Right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, and looking
back, agreed. It doesn't take you six hours to do
your laundry.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there any
reason why he would be there and not in the
Defaulter's Room?
THE WITNESS: He was allowed to go
anywhere he wanted.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any time,
anywhere he wanted?
THE WITNESS: Yes. He did stay at
the shacks, but one could also make an assumption
that he could have gone to mechanics. He also
could have stopped at the gym.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You knew to send
Hurlburt to the shacks?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Did you check
the Defaulter's Room first?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember if
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I did. It's a very small room. You can easily see
if someone is in there.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You also
mentioned about going to get belongings or get
stuff out of a locker. You said you recognized
there were some possessions. Where was that?
THE WITNESS: The locker in the
Defaulter's Room. He had his possessions in two
places that I know of. One was in the Defaulter's
Room. He had two lockers in there, and a number of
his possessions were left on the bed.
On the 15th, I secured all those
possessions into one locker, including the stuff on
his bed, along with his medications, which were
kept in the duty drawer.
His other location that he had his
stuff was in the RQ shop, the regimental
quartermaster, in the cage that I just spoke of
earlier.
THE CHAIRPERSON: The medications
were in the duty shop?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Were there any
medications in the Defaulter's Room?
THE WITNESS: No, not that I knew
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of.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to
the RQ to get --
THE WITNESS: No. Sorry. I did
go to the RQ to get a lock -- I believe I got it
from the RQ -- to lock the locker in his
Defaulter's Room.
THE CHAIRPERSON: To lock the
locker in the Defaulter's Room.
THE WITNESS: Correct. He had two
lockers in that Defaulter's Room that his gear was
stored in. It is set up for two defaulters. If
you have two defaulters, each one has a bed, and
each one has a locker. He had his stuff on one of
the beds and in two lockers.
Because I only had one lock, I
took everything out of one locker and put
everything into one locker.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just in terms of
timing, what time did you go to the Defaulter's
Room and you secured his medication and got a lock?
What time did you do that?
THE WITNESS: I think I testified
yesterday at 1730, maybe 1800. It was around that
time frame.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Corporal
Langridge was found (inaudible) about what time?
THE WITNESS: I think it was 1520,
give or take a few minutes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Did the military
police come see you that day?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember if
they did.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Surely you would
remember if you were interviewed by the military
police.
THE WITNESS: It appears they
called me, but they may have stopped by to ask a
question, but it wasn't like they -- there were a
number of people coming by. If they did come by,
it would just have been the patrolman. It wasn't
the NIS.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Were you
interviewed by anybody on the day of the corporal's
death?
THE WITNESS: Other than
conversations I had with Major Lubiniecki?
THE CHAIRPERSON: I am referring
to the military police.
THE WITNESS: The phone call that
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was -- I guess maybe an interview. They phoned me.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Who is they?
THE WITNESS: It is one of these
tabs.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Tab 5.
THE WITNESS: Yes, this person
here. I don't remember this.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Who is this
person?
THE WITNESS: Christine Loganie
(ph), tab 5. She called me, obviously, but I don't
remember this conversation.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't
remember. Would that have been before or after you
seized property?
THE WITNESS: It says 1750, so it
would have been about the same time.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Did you go get
the property as a result of that or did you do that
on your own?
THE WITNESS: I did it on my own.
THE CHAIRPERSON: After you seized
the property, did you make an inventory of it?
THE WITNESS: I did not. That is
normally done by the CQ staff or the RQ staff. In
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the normal operating procedure, the quartermaster,
the squadron quartermaster or the regimental
quartermaster will do the inventory. I just wanted
to ensure that nothing went astray before we did
that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: What did you do
with it then? You got a lock and you locked up the
room in the Defaulter's Room?
THE WITNESS: No, sir. I didn't
lock the room.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You locked the
locker in the Defaulter's Room.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE CHAIRPERSON: The medication
and any of the personal belongings from the
Defaulter's Room. What did you do with those
goods?
THE WITNESS: They all went into
the locker. His medication, everything he had on
his bed, and everything that he had in both
lockers, I combined them into one locker. All that
stuff into one locker. I locked that locker. I
took the key. I gave the key to Lieutenant Dunn
and told him to give it to the RQ staff in the
morning.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Why RQ staff?
THE WITNESS: In this particular
case, because it would go to the CQ or the RQ.
Sorry. The SQ, I should say. But in Stu's case, I
wasn't sure if it was the SQ of Headquarters
Squadron or the SQ of Recce Squadron, so I made the
assumption that the RQ would be better suited to
have this key because he would be better suited to
do the inventory on his stuff.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Did the military
police ask you for a list of the medication or ask
what the medication was? Did anybody ask or care?
THE WITNESS: Did they ask me what
the medication was? No, but I do know Master
Warrant Officer Crabb -- he was at the time. He
was a TQ, but he is now the regimental sergeant
major. He took the medications and took them back
to the pharmacy.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Master Warrant
Crabb?
THE WITNESS: Yes, he was a master
warrant officer at that time. He is now the
regimental sergeant major, so he is a chief warrant
officer now.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Where did he get
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the medications from?
THE WITNESS: I will make an
assumption that he got the medications from the RQ
because I gave the key to Lieutenant Dunn to give
to the RQ to make the inventory, and Master Warrant
Officer Crabb told me that he personally took the
medications back to the pharmacy.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Why would he
take them back to the pharmacy? Any idea? I don't
know if you can answer that. If you do know, fine.
I am not asking you to guess.
THE WITNESS: I understand that is
what you do with unused medications. I also know
that Stu was on a number of medications that were
very powerful. Some of those medications were
worth a lot of money on the street. I am making an
assumption that he didn't want those medications
lying around.
THE CHAIRPERSON: When would Crabb
have taken those medications?
THE WITNESS: That I don't know.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Who does Master
Warrant Officer Crabb work for?
THE WITNESS: He is the regimental
sergeant major now, so he works for --
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Then?
THE WITNESS: He was the TQ,
technical quartermaster, so he technically is the
RSM's right-hand man, so he works for the RSM.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of
what happened to the rest of Corporal Langridge's
belongings?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever go
back to that location again?
THE WITNESS: To the duty room or
to the --
THE CHAIRPERSON: To the duty
room.
THE WITNESS: I have been on duty
numerous times.
THE CHAIRPERSON: So after that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: At some point,
somebody must have had to use that Defaulter's
Room. Was it emptied?
THE WITNESS: It was. It was
emptied within three days.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who
emptied it?
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THE WITNESS: I do not. I would
make the assumption that it was the RQ staff
because they are the ones who had the key.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware if
the military police ever attended the Defaulter's
Room?
THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, I
am not aware of that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: On the night of
Corporal Langridge's death, you said that the
shacks -- this is where he would have died. Is
that correct?
THE WITNESS: Sorry?
THE CHAIRPERSON: In shacks, in
the room in the shacks is about a kilometre away?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Approximately.
Did you go to that room?
THE WITNESS: I did not.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You didn't go
there at all that night?
THE WITNESS: I did not go there
that day, no.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't know
anything about what happened at the room or the
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timing or whether the military police were there,
whether NIS was there? You were never there?
THE WITNESS: No, but I did phone
Corporal Hurlburt while he was there. He told me
the police were there. He told me the firemen were
there.
THE CHAIRPERSON: What time would
that have been?
THE WITNESS: 1730-ish.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Nobody gave you
instructions to lock up the medication nor are you
aware that anybody gave Crabb instructions to take
the medications out of the locker and back to the
pharmacy?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Based on the
evidence, is there any re-examination from counsel?
MS. CERNACEK: I don't have any
further questions.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I have a
point that is related to your question, Mr. Chair,
and it's a request I made to my friends. I think I
have the same uncertainty myself as to the physical
layout of the duty centre and also the physical
distance between the shacks and the centre itself.
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I wonder if we could not be
provided with either a diagram or pictures or
something that could inform us of this. I am not
certain that is available at the base. We looked
for it on the Internet.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sure there
is a layout that we could find. Maybe counsel can
come up with something.
MS. RICHARDS: I think one has
been provided. I have seen a drawing that was
provided. We can talk about it.
MS. CERNACEK: I am unaware of it,
but we can do the research for that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I have been to
the base, but I am not sure of the locations, and I
was a little confused. You hear about the
Defaulter's Room, but we hadn't talked about where
it was in relation to your office and the shacks
and things like that. Was that your only point?
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: That was my
only point.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
MS. MCLAINE: No follow-up.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to thank
you for your testimony. It was spread over a
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couple of days. I know you have a plane to go back
to -- where are you off to?
THE WITNESS: Edmonton and then
Wainwright, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you still
teaching courses at Wainwright?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I am, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to thank
you for your testimony and your service. Thank you
very much for being here and doing what you do.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Why don't we
take until -- we can give you a longer break today,
Ms. Richards. We will say a quarter to, and we
will prepare for the next witness. The next
witness will be?
MS. CERNACEK: Lieutenant-Colonel
Cadieu.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Is this the only
witness? Is there another one or is this the only
one?
MS. CERNACEK: That is the only
one for today.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Make it ten
minutes to.
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--- Recess taken at 10:36 a.m.
--- Upon resuming at 10:58 a.m.
MS. CERNACEK: As announced, the
next witness will be Lieutenant-Colonel Cadieu.
Was he sworn in?
THE REGISTRAR: Yes, he was.
MS. CERNACEK: I will enter the
document index book into evidence.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-26.
EXHIBIT NO. P-26: Document
index book for
Lieutenant-Colonel Cadieu.
MS. CERNACEK: Thank you. You can
ask him to come in, please.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand you
have been sworn.
THE WITNESS: I have, sir.
SWORN: TREVOR CADIEU
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. Just before we start, I was
just told that you might be colonel right now and
not lieutenant-colonel.
A. No, I am lieutenant-colonel
right now. I appreciate the promotion, though.
Q. Thank you. I didn't want to
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make a mistake.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You receive no
raises in this hearing.
THE WITNESS: Not yet, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You can have the
rank if you want, but you get no money.
MS. CERNACEK:
Q. I understand that you were
the second in command of the LDSH at the time of
the events that we are looking into?
A. That is correct, ma'am.
Q. What is your current
position?
A. My current position is the
commanding officer of Lord Strathcona's Horse
(Royal Canadians).
Q. Since when have you held this
position?
A. I have held this position
since the 27th of May, 2010.
Q. Before we get into events
that relate to you being the second in command, I
understand that you have been involved somewhat in
some topics that have been researched as the
commander of the LDSH recently, namely the BOI
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report, one part of the BOI report that refers to
suicide prevention; and secondly, there was a
question about members' file reviews. Is that
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. I would first direct you to
the suicide prevention. That is at tab 53. That
is the BOI report. Paragraph 194 states the
following:
"The board found that the
LDSH RC follows the policy as
outlined in CFAO 1945."
Which is the suicide prevention
CFAO:
"The unit has an 'immediate
action plan.'"
Immediate action is between
quotation marks. Then it says:
"Ensure the safety of the
member, inform the chain of
command through significant
incident report. Refer the
individual to the medical
facility and order a summary
investigation. The unit
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includes suicide prevention
as one of its topics during
weekly safety briefings and
provides training
opportunities for soldiers on
suicide prevention and peer
support courses." (As read.)
I believe there was a question
directed to you as the LDSH CO currently that was
pertaining to the immediate action plan. What is
your response?
A. There are two questions posed
to me. One was: Was there a unit suicide
intervention plan in place at the time of Corporal
Langridge's suicide?
My response to that was based on
all of our reviews of the documents at the unit for
our central registry. We could not find written
direction that was provided by Lieutenant-Colonel
Pascal Demers, who was the commanding officer at
the time.
That said, and I believe this is
articulated in this document, the unit was adhering
to national policy, which was CFAO 19-44, which
articulated in general terms the steps that you can
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see here.
It was unit standard operating
procedure to rehearse in what we call war game
those steps during changes of command and transfer
of authority between subunits in the unit.
Those steps were in place at times
of injury, death or critical incident at the unit.
The second part of the question
was: Is there a suicide intervention policy
articulated in writing in the current day? The
answer to that is yes, there is.
In 2009, Commander (inaudible)
issued direction to his formation that units are to
have an established professional development
program in place and measures in place to ensure
that soldiers are aware of the resources that are
at their disposal, should they find themselves
encountering suicidal thoughts.
That direction was subsequently
reinforced by the commander of 1 Canadian
Mechanized Brigade Group, and then I issued my own
written direction when I assumed command of the
Strathconas in 2010.
Q. Were these documents
communicated to the Commission?
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A. Yes, they were.
Q. Regarding the member file
reviews, I believe you did write this response that
I included in the book. It is tab 55.
Can you put us in context of what
the question was?
A. What is the question that you
want answered, ma'am?
Q. This email answers what
question?
A. Again, I think this answers
two questions. One was to clarify the unit policy
on what was referred to as a mini-DAG. I clarified
in my response that that is slang, essentially, for
a process that is known as the annual Personnel
Readiness Verification; in short, the PRV. Do you
want me to summarize the response, ma'am?
Q. Yes, please.
A. Although there is no written
direction to conduct a PRV annually, again, it is
standard practice at the unit.
It is a direction that is issued
verbally by the commanding officer for the subunits
under his command to verify the administrative
readiness of all the soldiers.
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That includes the complete review
of personnel files to include documents such as
their emergency notification form, ensure that they
have an updated will, supplementary death benefits,
Memorial Cross form, et cetera.
The second part of the question
was: Were there any specific file reviews
conducted for Corporal Langridge? Our review of
the files indicated that there were four specific
reviews that were conducted. I have articulated
those here.
Two are for what is known as
re-engagements, so his contract in the military was
about to expire. A file review was conducted to
make a recommendation as to whether or not he
should continue serving in the Canadian Forces.
One was for a promotion in 2005,
and one was for what is known as a personal file
audit, which was conducted in 2006.
Q. Regarding the PRVs, you said
they are annual. The word inside of the -- what it
means is readiness. Is there a review that would
be specific to a deployment, like a pre-deployment
review that would be additional to an annual PRV?
A. Yes. A PRV is an annual
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screening process just to make sure that our
members who are part of a combat arms unit have a
heightened state of readiness.
It is not just for operational
deployments, but we deploy in the field often, as
well, in Canada. It behooves us to make sure that
our administration is in order.
When a soldier is assigned an
operational task -- I will use the example if a
soldier is given orders that he or she will deploy
to Afghanistan by a specific date -- they undergo a
formal pre-deployment administrative -- what is
called a Departure Assistance Group, as well.
Q. You mentioned that for the
PRV, although it is regular, annually, it is each
time ordered by the CO. Is that right?
A. It is. It would be issued
verbally by the commanding officer. I can relate
my personal experiences. Generally speaking, in
the late summer or early fall time frame, as part
of our preparations for fall collective training,
the commanding officer -- so me, I turn to my team
and indicate that I want a PRV conducted to make
sure that the administration for all soldiers is in
order before we deploy.
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Q. To who do you direct -- or to
who a CO directs this order?
A. The commanding officer issues
his direction to what he refers to as his orders
group. When I say "orders group," that includes
his second in command, his adjutant, his operations
officer, his regimental sergeant major, and all the
officers commanding the subunits at the regiment.
Q. You named quite a lot of
people that this order is directed to. Who
actually implements the order?
A. That is two-fold. Number
one, the officers the commanding officer holds
accountable for the conduct of the PRV are the
officers commanding the squadrons the soldiers are
attached to. As the administrative authority in
the unit, the adjutant oversees that process.
Q. The adjutant is the
regimental adjutant, responsible for the whole
regiment. I know there is a particularity with the
HQ Squadron, meaning that the soldiers that are
posted in the HQ Squadron, their postings
oftentimes are relatively short in time. Am I
right?
A. Sometimes.
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Q. Why I am alluding to this is
because I am wondering how this PRV is conducted
with respect to the HQ Squadron.
Is there any particularity taking
into account the fact that the soldier might not
stay there for a long enough period, for instance?
A. I would respectfully offer
that I think it is too much of a generalization to
say that soldiers that are posted to Headquarters
Squadron are there for a short period of time.
Sometimes they are. In often
cases, they might spend years in that organization.
The same applies to any subunit at the regiment.
I think what you are getting at,
though, is that although we attempt to capture 100
percent of our personnel through the annual
Personnel Readiness Verification, it is often not
possible to do that at a moment in time, for
various reasons.
For example, at a regiment at any
given time, we have a number of soldiers deployed
overseas in operations. Clearly, you can't go
through their files. We have a number of soldiers
who are away throughout Canada and the United
States on military training or courses. You can't
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go through their files. And a number of soldiers
are on sick leave, either potentially getting
rehabilitation or at home convalescing, trying to
get through various injuries.
Q. What do you do in those
cases, regarding reviews of their files?
A. In those cases, when the
soldier is back at the regiment, at the first
available opportunity that the chain of command can
conduct the readiness verification with the member,
it is generally conducted at that time.
Q. Am I to understand that
basically, those soldiers who are not available for
a PRV at a given time where a PRV is ordered, then
their files are reviewed at the next PRV?
A. No. If you can conduct the
PRV with the member before the next scheduled one,
then you take advantage of that opportunity.
Sometimes, I will say, a PRV can
be as simple as asking a soldier if the information
on his or her file is extant and correct, or if
they wish to make any changes to key documents. If
their answer is no, based on a review of that, then
you consider that they have completed their PRV.
Q. Who conducts this interview?
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A. The squadron clerk in
conjunction with the squadron's second in command,
so as the adjutant is the regimental administrative
authority, in each of the subunits of the
squadrons, there is a second in command.
Then individuals, the
administrative authority for those teams.
Q. Is there a control mechanism
to ascertain whose files have been reviewed and
whose have not been?
A. It is up to the respective
squadron seconds in command to track the status of
the PRVs for their respective soldiers.
Q. In the document that we were
looking at, you mention that there was a personal
audit -- at the last paragraph before the policy
links -- about Corporal Langridge's file reviews.
You mentioned that there was a
personal audit in 2006.
Also, you mention above that
Lieutenant-Colonel Demers ordered a PRV -- no,
sorry.
At the bottom of the paragraph
about Corporal Langridge, it says that it appears
from reviewing Corporal Langridge's file that he
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updated his will, PEN form, and SDB in the
September 2006 time frame.
That is apparent from the
documents only or from any other source, as well?
A. From review of the documents
only.
Q. When you are referring to the
personal file audit in 2006, what does it refer to?
A. A personal file audit is just
a periodic review of a soldier's personnel files
that is conducted by the squadron clerk and
controlled by the squadron's second in command.
The purpose of that audit is to
strip away from the files documents that no longer
have any relevance. For example, travel claims
that were resolved years previously and no longer
have any influence on the member's administration
are cleared from the file.
Once that is completed, then the
squadron clerk annotates the file, indicating that
an audit was conducted, with the specific date that
it was completed.
Q. Do I understand properly that
this is different from a PRV?
A. Yes, ma'am.
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Q. Is the personal file audit
ordered or is it done as a regular part of the
tasks of the clerk?
A. It is completed as part of
the regular tasks of the clerk.
Q. Do you know how often such an
audit is done?
A. There is no defined schedule.
We are a busy unit. When operational tempo allows,
and clerks, who look after up to 150 soldiers,
their administration, when they have what we call
white space in their schedule to do that, generally
speaking, they complete those audits.
Q. Again, looking at the last
paragraph, the personal file audit, I understand
that you actually saw evidence of this in Corporal
Langridge's file?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you see who actually did
this audit?
A. I would have seen the
document. I can't recall who signed off on it. It
would have been a clerk, though.
Q. Were these documents that
enabled you to write this email communicated to the
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Commission?
A. I don't think I attached the
actual file reviews that were conducted. That
would be easy to do, though.
Q. We would require that
documentation that enabled you to arrive to this
conclusion about the personal file audit in 2006 be
communicated.
MS. RICHARDS: If I could
interject, it has already been produced to the
Commission. In fact, it was an exhibit that is in
the book, I believe, for Major Volstad, who
testified yesterday.
MS. CERNACEK: Thank you.
Q. As an aside, just to complete
this subject, at tab 56, you see a personal
emergency notification form that is dated March 6,
2007. It is for Corporal Langridge. Have you ever
seen this document before?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. In what circumstances have
you seen it?
A. In preparation for this
hearing.
Q. Not before?
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A. No, not that I recall before.
Sorry. Ma'am, I am going to clarify one thing on
that. Obviously, this is a document that we would
have considered immediately following Corporal
Langridge's death during what we call the casualty
coordination meeting and the determination of next
of kin, so I had seen it previous to the
preparation of this hearing.
Q. Just to clarify, are you
saying that you saw this particular document during
the casualty coordination hearing in March 2008?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. We will get to that later.
A. Understood.
MS. MCLAINE: If I may interject
for a moment, if you could perhaps explain what
this document is prior to asking the question.
Thank you.
MS. CERNACEK:
Q. This document was given to us
recently through Warrant Hiscock. It was found not
in the LDHQ regiment -- that was explained to us
this morning -- but in the place where the PLQ
course is conducted. Our understanding from this
morning is that this document was not part of the
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personal file of Corporal Langridge.
A. Then I need to clarify this
because when you raised my attention to this
matter, I looked at personal emergency
notification, roughly the date it was signed with
the member's signature. I had assumed without
reviewing the entire document that this was the PEN
form that was part of his personnel file. If you
are telling me this is a document that was produced
external to our unit, then I have to say I haven't
seen it.
Q. Sorry for that confusion.
There was no intention on my part.
MS. MCLAINE: If I may interject
for a moment, I have found the document. The
document reference is 1139-1. Perhaps we could put
that to the witness.
MS. CERNACEK:
Q. This would be the document
that you referred to earlier that enabled you to
conclude that there was a personal file audit on
Corporal Langridge's file in 2006?
THE CHAIRPERSON: That was in
Volstad's --
MS. MCLAINE: Yes, it was.
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THE WITNESS: It is signed by a
clerk. Private Marcott (ph) was a clerk in that
squadron at that time.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Tab 5 in
Volstad's.
MS. RICHARDS: Yes.
MS. CERNACEK:
Q. That means that the clerk
Marcott did this audit. Right?
A. That is correct, ma'am.
Q. Thank you. I would like now
to go back to the 2007-2008 time frame. First of
all, could you tell us more precisely when you
became second in command of LDSH?
A. I became second in command of
LDSH after returning from my last tour in
Afghanistan in the June 2007 time frame.
Q. You stayed in that position
for how long?
A. I stayed in that position for
one year, and I was posted to Toronto in June 2008.
Q. Could you explain to us what
the duties and responsibilities of the 2IC are?
A. Certainly, ma'am. I do want
to clarify one thing, as well. In addition to
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being the second in command of the unit, I was also
double-heading as the officer commanding
Reconnaissance Squadron. I can explain that in a
second.
My primary duties, though, were as
the second in command. I am going to refer to it
as 2IC, the Strathconas.
First and foremost, I was the
understudy to the commanding officer, meaning that
when he was on the road -- whether deployed,
observing training or away on a task -- then I
would temporarily assume command of the unit in his
absence.
While he was at the unit, my job
was essentially to act as the chief of staff of his
personal staff, so, in essence, to coordinate the
efforts of his staff once he had issued a
direction, specifically what I would refer to as
regimental headquarters, so when he issues
direction to his adjutant, operations officer, and
the regimental sergeant major, along with his
officers commanding, I would coordinate their
remits to the commanding officer.
Q. When you refer to his
personal staff, are these the people that you are
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referring to?
A. That is correct.
Q. You mentioned you were also
the head of the Reconnaissance Squadron.
A. That is correct.
Q. How did these two duties come
together?
A. Our regiment at the time of
Corporal Langridge's death had been generating
successive tank squadrons for combat operations in
Afghanistan, so the focus of our unit was primarily
on tank operations.
We tried to or we did reinvigorate
an armoured reconnaissance capability at the unit.
Because all of our leaders who were fit and
deployable were attached to tank squadrons, I took
on the additional duties of looking after this
undermanned Reconnaissance Squadron as we
reinvigorated that capability of the unit.
I had just returned from
Afghanistan, so I was not about to redeploy with
another tank squadron.
Q. Is that something unusual for
a 2IC to have such a double task?
A. It is not unheard of, but it
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doesn't happen all the time, no.
Q. How did you split your time
between the two?
A. My primary duties were as the
second in command. That took, I would say, 85 to
90 percent of my time.
I had a very strong battle captain
in the Reconnaissance Squadron. Although we term
it as a squadron, this was an undermanned
organization, so it was about 45 to 50 soldiers on
the team at that time. Certainly in the
capabilities of a captain to look after, so that
allowed me to focus most of my energies on serving
as the second in command of the unit.
Q. Regarding your duties as the
second in command, could you explain to us how you
actually managed to organize all these people? How
did you communicate with them? What did it entail
on a daily basis?
A. It depends on the dialogue
that you are going to be having. I believe in a
lot of face-to-face communication, so depending on
what the situation was, I would gather the team,
issue direction verbally, and supervise the
execution of their duties.
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Q. Physically speaking, in the
building, we have been trying to obtain a diagram.
This is not the best one, but we actually obtained
two. Mr. Chair, do you have a copy of this?
THE CHAIRPERSON: I have one.
MS. CERNACEK: I will provide you
with the one that Mr. Chairman has.
THE CHAIRPERSON: This one is --
MS. CERNACEK:
Q. On the one that is called
Edmonton Garrison Facilities Map, could you situate
us where the headquarters were and describe it a
little bit?
A. Certainly, ma'am. I draw
your attention to the top right part of the page.
You can see the cardinal points, north, south,
west, and east. If you come just below that, you
will see a block, and that indicates LDSH. That is
known as Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians).
That feature on the map represents
the Harvey Building. That is where the Strathconas
go to work on a day-to-day basis, including
Corporal Langridge and the entire leadership of the
Strathconas.
Q. Does that mean that everybody
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is situated in the same building?
A. Yes. That is where we go to
work on a daily basis. Do you want me to describe
the building?
Q. Please.
A. When you approach Harvey
Building, which looks awfully small on this map, it
is actually a large facility. It is essentially an
H shape.
You walk in through the front
doors. You can go left or right, and you will find
that as an armoured unit, we have a number of
armoured bays, so large facilities where you can
store vehicles indoors throughout the year.
On the ground floor, you have
these bays where soldiers conduct maintenance and
training on a day-to-day basis.
On the second floor, generally
speaking, is where you will find the administration
offices for the leadership of the unit.
Q. Do I understand that
everybody that is sort of under your responsibility
as a 2IC, their offices are situated at the same
place?
A. No. The second in command,
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first of all, is not commanding that unit; the
commanding officer is. But subordinate leaders in
that unit are spread throughout it, so both the
commanding officer, the second in command, and the
regimental sergeant major have responsibility, all
550-plus soldiers there. So subordinate commanders
are spaced out throughout the building.
The personal staff of the
commanding officer, so the regimental headquarters,
is located in one hallway on the second floor,
where the commanding officer has ready access to
those leaders.
Q. Can you situate the duty
centre compared to the regimental headquarters?
A. Yes, ma'am. When you walk
into the Harvey Building, there are several access
points into that building. In the mornings, the
soldiers come in to work. They go in the various
entrances, probably five or six different ones.
There is a main entrance to the
building located in the centre of the H that I
described. As you walk into that main entrance,
about five metres off to your left is the
regimental duty centre.
Q. Would the people who are
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located in the regimental headquarters have access
on a daily basis to the duty centre or no? How
does that work?
A. You walk in the front door.
The duty centre is just on the left-hand side.
Generally speaking, staff from regimental
headquarters will pass the duty centre, proceed up
the stairs that are just in front of it, and at the
top of those stairs is the hallway where the
offices of the regimental headquarters personnel
are located.
Q. In order to access your
offices, you would actually pass by the duty
centre. Is that right?
A. If you chose to walk through
the front door, yes.
Q. What would be the practice?
Is there a general practice where you are walking
from or is it random?
A. Is there a protocol when you
walk past the duty centre?
Q. Protocol or, rather, usage.
Do people tend to walk more through the main door
or not?
A. It depends where you work in
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the building. If you are a soldier from
Reconnaissance Squadron and you work on the north
end of the building, you are probably going to
access one of the doors closest to Reconnaissance
Squadron.
For me personally, if I am working
at regimental headquarters, I generally walk
through the front of that building. If for no
other reason, it gives me an opportunity to speak
to the soldiers who are working in the duty centre
on a daily basis, to say hi to them, see how they
are doing, and see how their night was.
Q. Basically, my question was
directed because my understanding was that the
regimental headquarters are situated above the duty
centre, and I wanted to ascertain whether the
entrance by the duty centre is the most common
entrance to enter the headquarters.
A. I would say for personnel
working in regimental headquarters, the main
entrance is the most used entrance.
Q. We know from previous
testimony that at some point, Corporal Langridge
was assigned a room in the shacks, the Steele
Barracks. Where would those be situated -- I can
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look on the map here -- with respect to the LDSH?
A. What we could call the
shacks, the single quarters, they aren't actually
represented on this map, but I will take you to
them.
If you go to the box, kind of
central left on the map, it says "base main gate."
Do you see that?
Q. Yes.
A. If you were to go to the
right of that, you will hit a box that says
"sergeants and warrant officers mess." Do you see
that?
Q. Yes.
A. If you go just above that,
you will see "junior ranks mess." Above that,
there is a road that runs left to right. Just on
the other side of the road, so north of that road,
envision a long rectangular box. That would be the
location of the single quarters or the shacks.
You can see in relation where they
are from the Lord Strathcona's Horse building,
approximately 500 metres away.
Q. Thank you. I understand that
you had known Corporal Langridge prior to becoming
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the second in command of LDSH. Could you tell us
about that?
A. I did. I was posted to the
British Columbia regiment in Vancouver in 1999 and
2000.
I was there as the regular force
regimental support staff. At each primary reserve
unit throughout Canada, there is a regular force
captain who is posted there to assist them with
their training and administration.
Stuart Langridge was a member of
the British Columbia regiment, so I had first met
him there.
Of course, when he took a
component transfer to the regular force and joined
the Strathconas, I had already known him and became
reacquainted with him there.
Q. What do you remember of him
from the time when he was a reservist?
A. I do.
Q. What do you remember of him?
A. I would say during his time
as a soldier at the British Columbia regiment,
there was nothing remarkable that stood out at me.
He was known as a very solid soldier at the British
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Columbia regiment, and I personally hadn't seen
anything to contradict that.
Q. Had you interacted with him
at that time?
A. Had I ever talked to him at
that time? Yes, I had, on several occasions.
Q. Were you with the unit when
he became a regular member of the Forces with the
Strathconas?
A. My affiliation has been with
the Strathconas for the last 16 years, and I don't
know the exact date that Stuart transferred over to
the Strathconas, but after my service at the
British Columbia regiment in 2001, I was posted
back to the Strathconas, which I think is close to
the time that Stuart transferred over, and I became
reacquainted with him there fairly quickly.
But I deployed to Afghanistan in
the weeks following 9/11, so I would not have seen
Stuart for about a year after that.
Q. Do you remember him from the
time before you were deployed in this time period?
A. Not specifically I don't.
Q. When was the next time that
he actually comes to your mind, to your attention?
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A. It would be when I redeployed
from my first tour in Afghanistan in the late 2002
time frame.
Again, that is 10 years ago, so I
couldn't tell you a specific date or incident where
I would have encountered Corporal Langridge, but I
do recall serving with him at the unit at that
particular time.
Q. If we follow up, you
mentioned earlier that when you became 2IC, it was
after being deployed to Afghanistan?
A. The second time.
Q. When and how did you
encounter Stuart Langridge when you became the 2IC?
A. I encountered soldiers in a
number of different ways at the unit. I think a
lot of our leaders share the same ethos. The best
way to gain a soldier's trust in garrison and then
be able to go and conduct some of the hard things
that we are asked to do in the field or on
operations is to establish a rapport with the
soldiers in the garrison environment, as well.
I would have come across Stuart on
many occasions during my walkabouts of the unit,
where I would have just informal dialogue, not
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specific military chats.
I can recall speaking to Stuart on
several occasions about what he did on the weekend,
for example, what our mutual interests were.
Then, of course, I encountered
Stuart in a very different capacity when he was
dealing with mental health issues and his addiction
issues, as well.
Q. Can you separate those two?
How do they come together in your mind?
A. I think they definitely come
together. I had an established rapport with Stuart
Langridge that went back to my service with the
British Columbia regiment, so when he had issues
and he was dealing with things in his personal
life, we had already established, I felt, anyway,
some level of trust.
That allowed me to approach him in
a very delicate way but also in a compassionate
way, to speak to him Trevor to Stuart to try to get
a sense of what some of his issues were and to
communicate to him that he had the full support of
his unit.
Q. Can you project yourself back
and try to find when the first time was that you
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heard about or that you were apprised of his
problems and what these problems were and how you
learned about them?
A. I can't with honesty say that
I remember the moment that I was told that Stuart
Langridge had failed a test for cause for illegal
substances.
That is a situation that I have
encountered many times throughout my military
career. It would not have stood out to me at that
particular moment, so I can't tell you the specific
date. I could explain in general terms the
conditions under which that information would be
provided to me.
Q. Please do.
A. The adjutant, as the
administrative authority, is first informed when a
soldier fails the test for cause, and then he
communicates that information to what I would call
the inner circle, which is the regimental
headquarters, the commanding officer, second in
command, and the regimental sergeant major.
I do not remember specifically
being told about Corporal Langridge's failed test.
Q. This information would be
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conveyed verbally to you?
A. Verbally.
Q. What would you do with this
information?
A. As the second in command, I
would note it, and then I would do what I call a
bearing check, just to make sure that the adjutant
had the information he needed in order to carry on
with the administrative process of the situation.
In a case like this, the
commanding officer would issue direction to get the
member to the base addictions counsellor and start
rehabilitation and concurrent administrative
action.
Q. Am I to understand that you
are speaking in general terms now, not about the
specific case of Corporal Langridge?
A. That is correct.
Q. Besides not remembering the
specifics of being told about his positive test,
you don't remember the specific follow-up either of
the test with your involvement?
A. Again, I can remember being
told that Corporal Langridge had failed his test,
but I cannot remember the specific date or the
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exact location that was communicated to me. I do
remember the follow-up following that.
Q. You mean the follow-up that
you just referred to?
A. The actions taken by the unit
to facilitate Stuart's rehabilitation and
administrative actions taken by the unit.
Q. Did you already refer to them
or are you about to refer to them?
A. If you would like me to refer
to them, I will.
Q. Please do.
A. The steps taken by the unit
after we were notified that Corporal Langridge had
failed his test for cause, for starters, in order
to verify the test, the member is given the option
of having the sample retested.
In Stuart's case, he denied using
cocaine and requested that the sample be retested,
which it had been. Concurrent to that, the
commanding officer had signed a referral to get
Corporal Langridge to the base addictions
counsellor, which is, essentially, standard
operating procedure for any soldier who fails
either a drug test or has a run-in with the law
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with, for example, a DUI, so an alcohol- or
drug-related issue.
Stuart was referred to the base
addictions counsellor. It is at that point where
our formal comprehension of the medical involvement
or specific rehabilitation for the member generally
comes to an end, because we are not allowed to
know, as a member's chain of command or leadership,
specifically what his medical condition is and what
specific medical attention that soldier is getting,
but generally speaking, if you have been around
long enough and you know that the soldier is going
to be away from his place of duty -- which was
communicated to us about Corporal Langridge -- for
a specific period of time and it is in the
aftermath of a failed drug test, you can connect
the dots and assume that he is going to go off and
attempt rehabilitation.
Q. Before the information about
his failed drug test was communicated to you, were
you aware of any addiction issues pertaining to
Corporal Langridge?
A. Specific to Corporal
Langridge, I was not.
Q. After you were communicated
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this information, in this time frame, did you speak
to him personally about this?
A. I did speak to Corporal
Langridge several times after it had been
communicated to me that he had failed his drug
test.
Q. Can you tell us about these
conversations?
A. My initial conversation with
him was around the time that his sample had been
retested. Corporal Langridge had communicated to
me that he had not been using illicit drugs and
that he looked forward to the results of the second
test.
When again we found out that he
was having problems with addictions, Stuart had
communicated to me that he had been using drugs
recreationally, and then we had more serious
discussions about his state of mind.
Q. What were these discussions?
A. Again, Trevor to Stuart in an
environment, as much as possible, that is conducive
to communications.
Stuart had just told me that he
had been dealing with some anxiety and depression
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and that using drugs and alcohol had helped to get
through some of these issues, but he acknowledged
or communicated that he wanted to get to the other
side of this incident and that he wanted to start
contributing to the unit once again as an effective
soldier of the Strathconas.
Q. When you refer to this
incident, is it the failed drug test?
A. The failed drug test.
Q. What was your response to
him?
A. My response to him was that
he is a member of the family. It would be along
the lines of "things happen." I may not use those
exact words, but as members of the family,
sometimes we stumble, and we go through a dark
period, but we weren't going to turn our backs on
that soldier, even though he was having a hard
time. We would be there for him through this
process, and we very much wanted to see him fully
reintegrated into the unit, as well.
Q. Can you place these
conversations? I believe there was more than one,
or are you referring to one particular
conversation?
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A. There were multiple
conversations with Corporal Langridge.
Q. Can you situate them in time
between your becoming second in command in June
2007 and his death in 2008?
A. One that stands out to me
that I can lay out fairly well in time in my mind
would be after his effort to rehabilitate at
Edgewood when he returned to the unit in January
2008.
Of course, by that time, I was
aware of the fact that he had been dealing with
addictions issues, that he had attempted suicide
once previously, so it was clear in my mind that
Stuart Langridge was a sick young man who was
dealing with a number of issues.
At that time, Stuart was working
in the duty centre. I can remember coming in to
work that morning, engaging the team at the duty
desk, and then Stuart and I going off and having a
chat just outside the main entrance. There is a
little foyer between two doors.
Stuart had communicated to me --
knowing that not only was I the second in command,
but I was also the officer commanding
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Reconnaissance Squadron -- that he would like to
get back into Reconnaissance Squadron. That was
his passion. He was an armoured Recce soldier. He
deployed with the Reconnaissance Squadron to Kabul
a few years previously, and he asked for that
opportunity.
What I communicated to him and
what I followed up on was that I could do that. I
would be willing to move Stuart from his
Headquarters Squadron duties into Reconnaissance
Squadron and give him a shot if he felt that he
could effectively contribute to that team.
Q. You mentioned that at the
time of this conversation, he was living at the
duty centre?
A. No, he was serving in the
duty centre. He was on duty on that particular day
when I walked into the regiment.
Q. He worked there at the time?
A. That is correct.
Q. What was your perception of
his reaction?
A. He was grateful for it. He
communicated that that is what he wanted to do. We
ended the discussion with an understanding that he
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will go over to Reconnaissance Squadron.
If he has any issues, though, and
for some reason didn't want to carry on with those
duties or he felt that he was not capable of doing
that, we would have another conversation and change
that.
That is what happened. We did
move Stuart into Reconnaissance Squadron for a
short period of time. I don't know the exact
number of days, but it was a short period of time,
approximately a week.
Stuart had come back to me and
said that he appreciated the opportunity but that
mentally, he just wasn't in the game at that point
in time, and he didn't feel that Reconnaissance
Squadron was the place for him to be.
Q. Did you discuss this with the
person who was actually under you to lead the
Reconnaissance Squadron? I know that you were the
head of the Reconnaissance Squadron. You mentioned
someone was there who did the bulk of the work,
basically.
A. The answer to your question
is no, I did not discuss it with the captain in
that squadron.
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That is a dialogue I had with this
particular soldier. That is an agreement we had.
I wanted to give him an opportunity to get back in
the saddle. As I say, he came back to me directly
to communicate that he appreciated the opportunity
but felt that Reconnaissance Squadron wasn't for
him at that point in time.
To me, that made a lot of sense.
I agreed with him. Reconnaissance Squadron is a
group of soldiers who train very aggressively.
They deploy to the field often. For a soldier who
is dealing with some of the issues that Stuart was,
it was perfectly normal that that would not be the
ideal place for him to work. I communicated to him
that there absolutely were no issues with that and
we would facilitate his move back to Headquarters.
Q. Did you have discussions
about this particular move with anyone else within
the regimental headquarters?
A. I cannot remember having a
specific conversation with anybody as part of the
regimental headquarters. I am certain, though, I
would have had that chat with the commanding
officer and probably the adjutant, as well.
Q. You mentioned that this
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conversation occurred, I believe, after he left
treatment. Did I get it correctly?
A. You did.
Q. Can you situate that in time
from your memory?
A. Roughly the mid-January 2008
time frame.
Q. You mentioned, as well, that
at the time, you were aware of a suicide attempt of
his. What can you tell us about that?
A. I am aware that the spring
prior, Stuart had attempted suicide by running a
hose into his vehicle in an effort to poison
himself through carbon monoxide and that two of his
friends, following a text message that Stuart had
sent, had discovered him, and that attempt did not
go through.
Q. How did you learn about this?
A. I was notified through the
regimental adjutant that this incident had
happened.
Q. After you had been informed,
did you have any role in dealing with this
incident?
A. Not immediately. My role,
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and it came after the completion of a summary
investigation in the incident, which I am sure we
will talk about, but in the immediate aftermath of
the incident, it was the commanding officer issuing
direction directly to the adjutant.
Q. What was your reaction to
this event?
A. Stuart Langridge was a member
of our family. Any time that one of your soldiers
is going through that sort of hardship, to the
point where they consider taking their own lives,
clearly that is a shocking thing, not only for the
chain of command but for all the soldiers in the
unit, as well.
I remember feeling heartbroken
about what this soldier was going through, and
certainly that sent a clear indication to me that
-- to me personally, anyway -- this is a young man
who was dealing with issues in greater depth than
perhaps I had believed initially following his
failed drug test.
Q. You mentioned earlier having
had a discussion with him about addictions, on one
hand, but also about his anxiety. Can you situate
this discussion in time with respect to the suicide
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attempt?
A. I can't relate that to a
specific moment in time, that particular
discussion. One thing I will say: Although Stuart
had communicated to me that he was dealing with
anxiety, which I knew based on his repatriation
from a primary land qualification course. He had
been sent back to the unit for anxiety-related
issues.
I had personally never witnessed
Stuart Langridge experiencing anxiety or panic, or
if he was in my presence, I certainly didn't pick
up on it.
Q. You mentioned that he
interrupted a PLQ course due to anxiety. How did
this come to your attention?
A. Again, that came from the
regimental adjutant that he had been returned to
unit due to medical issues and he could not
complete that course.
Q. This happened in March 2007
and you became the 2IC in June 2007?
A. That is right.
Q. How would that information
have circulated? I believe that happened while you
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were still deployed.
A. No, I was back from
Afghanistan at that point in time. Although I was
on a period of leave for a couple of weeks in the
March time frame, knowing that I was going in as
the regimental second in command and the officer
commanding Reconnaissance Squadron, I was around
the unit frequently in late March, and then I
returned to work in the April time frame.
I can't remember exactly when I
was told that Stuart Langridge had returned to the
unit from his PLQ course, but it was at a point
after I had returned from leave.
Q. You knew this before the
suicide attempt?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know about the
reasons for the return from the PLQ course before
the suicide attempt?
A. I think initially, from what
I recall, he had returned for medical reasons. At
some point, I received the knowledge that it might
have been due to anxiety-related issues. I can't
remember who specifically communicated that to me.
Q. You mentioned that at one
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point, you became involved in a summary
investigation into the suicide attempt.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. I am
just watching the time. I just want you to be
cognizant when you move into certain areas. I
anticipate breaking for lunch at noon, so depending
where you are at, let me know and we can break now
or we can break after.
MS. CERNACEK: I think it would be
preferable. I am getting into large territory.
THE CHAIRPERSON: That is what I
figured. We will recess for lunch until 1:30
today.
MS. RICHARDS: I am just
wondering, Mr. Chairman, if you anticipate any
administrative issues being raised this afternoon.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you
referring to discussions yesterday?
MS. RICHARDS: Sure, or if there
are any other issues.
THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I want to
complete the witnesses. There is nothing major
that I am going to be talking about today.
MS. RICHARDS: With your
indulgence, I will excuse myself this afternoon
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from the hearing.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Have a nice
afternoon. You can't take counsel with you,
though. We will break until 1:30. Thank you.
--- Recess taken at 11:56 a.m.
--- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m.
MS. CERNACEK: May we continue
with Lieutenant-Colonel Cadieu?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF OF LIEUTENANT- COLONEL CADIEU
BY MS. CERNACEK, CONTINUED:
Q. Good afternoon. Before
breaking for lunch we did not enter as an exhibit
the diagram that was talked about this morning of
the Edmonton garrison. Before doing so, though, I
saw on your copy that you annotated it a little
bit, especially with regards to the shacks,
wherever they were situated. Would you please just
write beside there that those are the shacks?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And maybe put your initials
next to it as well. And the document was pulled
out of a website which is www.army.forces.gc.ca.
And it will be entered as exhibit number...?
THE REGISTRAR: P-27.
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EXHIBIT P-27: Diagram of
Edmonton garrison.
THE CHAIRPERSON: On your copy,
Lieutenant-Colonel, if you could also just make a
note there where the duty centre is. Just note
"duty centre" and also "defaulters room" so
everybody who reads it will know it's in the same
place.
A. Yes, sir.
MS. CERNACEK: In that case maybe
the regimental headquarters as well.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Fine. And
anything else you want to put on there, within
reason.
A. Yes, sir.
BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. So you were at user at
(inaudible) about the suicide attempt. Before we
get into any documents pertaining to the SI, I
would like to get a sense of, when you get this
information at the regimental headquarters, what
happens? What is the reaction and what is the
action taken? What happens?
A. Generally speaking when the
commanding officer is notified of a significant
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incident such as this, or a suicide attempt, he
convenes a meeting, generally speaking initially
with the adjutant and the regimental sergeant-major
and sometimes the second in command is present, but
he issues immediate direction for the adjutant,
first of all, to confirm the status of the member.
So is that individual under medical care; if not,
the actions that are needed to ensure that happens.
And then secondly, of course, once you've ensured
the safety of the individual, the commanding
officer usually notifies his boss, which is the
commander of 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group,
that a significant incident has happened. And
concurrent to that the adjutant indicates to his
counterpart at the higher headquarters, the G1,
he's the administrative authority in the entire
formation, that a similar thing has happened. So
you have information going up the command then and
information going up the staff net.
A significant incident report is
then drafted to let the leadership of the Canadian
army know what has happened, and then following
that, based on what we learn from medical
authorities, the status of the individual, we
confirm what we call a care plan so that once that
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individual is released from medical care that there
is some sort of safety net to make sure that they
have any resources they need. Should they again
feel suicidal, they know what levers to pull to get
help.
Q. All right. So you were
speaking in general terms. What about this
particular case?
A. I wouldn't know the exact
discussion that took place, but it would be
something very similar to what I've just described.
Q. Are you saying that you don't
actually remember it?
A. Yeah, I don't actually
remember the discussion with the commanding officer
issuing specific direction in the immediate
aftermath of his suicide, no.
Q. All right. So besides this
specific direction from the commanding officer,
what do you remember of the discussions that took
place and the actions that were taken in this
particular case?
A. In this particular case
relevant to Corporal Langridge I do remember
discussions with the chain of command making sure
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that the medical authorities were aware of what
happened, obviously, and then trying to map out a
road to help this soldier out. I do not remember
specific dialogue or actions that were taken to
ensure that he had a care plan in place from either
family members or fellow soldiers, which is often
the case when a soldier is released from medical
care.
Q. All right. Were you present
at the time? Do you remember when it happened?
A. I don't remember the exact
moment of being notified of the suicide attempt,
no.
Q. Okay. So there are three
documents that were generated by the chain of
command regarding this incident, which are
connected with the SI. Before going there, could
you tell us where the SI fits in all this?
A. The summary investigation is
a formal investigation that's ordered by the chain
of command to confirm the circumstances surrounding
the incident, so in essence to provide background
information. That investigation is used to confirm
whether or not the member was on duty at the time
of the incident, and it's also used to communicate
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or try to understand potential causes of the
incident and the way ahead for the chain of command
in looking after that soldier.
A summary investigation is ordered
as a matter of standard operating procedure, and
it's also mandated by the CFAO that we've discussed
previously, following all suicide attempts.
Q. All right. At that time was
this the first time you encountered a situation
where you were part of the leadership when there
was a suicide attempt?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. How many previous experiences
of such nature did you encounter?
A. One actual suicide at our
unit where a young corporal had committed suicide a
few years prior to Stuart Langridge, and over the
years I've been involved in multiple suicide
attempts. I couldn't give you a number but it's
many, over a dozen.
Q. I would like to assess how
exceptional such an event is or not. That's the
aim of my question.
A. I would say it's gotten more
frequent in the last few years. During my initial
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years of service as an officer at the Strathconas I
dealt with one suicide prior to Stuart's suicide
and maybe three or four attempted suicides. In the
last couple of years, during my tenure as
commanding officer, we've dealt with about seven
suicide attempts.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just one
comment. Unless we really need to know the names
of others, I don't really believe we need it on the
public record.
A. I appreciate that, sir.
MS. CERNACEK: Not at all. We
don't.
BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. So as you said that you don't
remember precisely the time frame, I believe the
documents can assist us with that, so I direct you
to Tab 12. This is a document dated June 27, 2007,
and it is called "Terms of reference for the
summary investigation into the attempted suicide of
Corporal Langridge," and when you turn the page
it's signed for then Lieutenant-Colonel Demers, I
believe, by someone else. Would this someone else
be you?
A. This someone else is not -- I
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think you'll be talking to him next. That Earl
Jared's signature.
Q. You recognize the signature?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. It says at the first
paragraph there that the attempted suicide took
place on the 25th of June. Since this letter is
not signed directly by the CO, but for the CO,
would that mean that the CO was not present at the
time, to your recollection?
A. I don't know the answer to
that specifically. I can tell you how I operate,
though, when I sign for the commanding officer, and
you'll see a few documents where I have. I will
brief the commanding officer verbally on the phone
if he's away, and again, I don't know the
circumstances in this particular instance, but if
the commanding officer is out of town on a task or
operations or a visit somewhere, I brief him over
phone, get his endorsement that he's satisfied with
the content, and then I'll sign over his name. I
have no idea in this particular instance.
Q. As the 2IC wouldn't it be a
fair assumption to make on my part to think that if
you would be the one who would be the first to come
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to sign for the CO?
A. If the 2IC is present and the
CO is not there and his signature is required, then
yes, you're right that it would go to the second in
command. In this particular case the second in
command was not present.
Q. All right. So when you say
that you were not present, what does it mean? Were
you not present only on the 27th of June or were
you not present in that time frame? I would like
to understand that a little better.
A. Ma'am, I don't know where I
was on the 27th of June 2007 when this document was
signed, but I was not at the unit. Had I been,
then I would have signed for the commanding
officer. What we don't do, though, is if the CO is
not present and the second in command is not
present, we're not going to delay important
administration like this, so other majors who are
commanding squadrons at the unit, in this case Earl
Jared was commanding one of the sub-units at the
regiment; he is perfectly qualified to sign for the
commanding officer.
Q. And I would like to
understand, when it's Major Jared who signs for the
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CO, does he have to go through you before signing
for the CO or he goes directly?
A. Directly to the CO, ma'am.
Q. All right. So what that
means is that you were not necessarily aware of
this document; is that right?
A. Not on the date that it was
signed, no.
Q. And did you become aware of
it afterwards and, if so, when?
A. I wouldn't know the exact
date I became aware of it. I clearly did become
aware of it, for two reasons. One is I know that
there was an attempted suicide, so I know that a
summary investigation was coming, so a terms of
reference is the first step in initiating that
investigation. And secondly, and I know one of the
documents we'll talk about is the one that I
signed, which is my comments on the investigating
officer's investigation. Clearly I would have read
this document at that time as well.
Q. When you say you were aware
of the attempted suicide, we discussed that
previously, but just in light of your absence when
the TORs were signed, the suicide occurred on the
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25th of June, I'm trying to see how present and how
not present you were in those days as far as you
can tell us. Do you go away for half a day, do you
go away for a day? When you go away, would you go
away for a week?
A. I'm a combat arms officer; I
go where I'm directed to go. Sometimes it can be
for six weeks in training; it could be for three
days, a short task. I don't know where I was at
this particular time. I'd be lying to you if I
said that I did.
Q. When we go back to what you
said about being notified about the suicide, when
you remember being notified about the suicide do
you remember where you were?
A. Not physically where I was.
And if I could put this in context for you, we had
an attempted suicide at our unit two months ago. I
can remember being briefed by my adjutant that
there was an attempted suicide and the conditions
surrounding that. I do not remember where I was
sitting when I was getting that information.
Q. Okay. So I direct you to Tab
15, and at Tab 12 the TOR said that -- I'll just
summarize it quickly for you -- said that the
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investigation was to be conducted within a 21-day
time frame; it was signed on the 27th of June.
Now, here the document at Tab 15
is the recommendations and findings of the summary
investigation, and it is dated the 24th of July.
Are you able to tell us whether
you were at the headquarters at the time this was
completed from the 24th of July?
A. I don't know if I was there
on that exact date.
Q. Are you able to tell us when
you got the recommendations and findings?
A. When I read the report and
put my cover letter on to it.
Q. Okay. When you're speaking
about the cover letter, are you referring to the
document at Tab 17?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All right. So that is dated
the 15th of August. So did you draft this letter
personally?
A. No, I did not. It was
drafted by the unit adjutant, which is -- it's
customary that the adjutant drafts the commanding
officer's or his representative's correspondence,
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and if the commanding officer or his representative
is satisfied with it, then he endorses it, or signs
it.
Q. And how does this go about?
Did you discuss it with the adjutant before he
drafts it or not?
A. I can't recall this specific
incident. I do know how I operate, though, and
before my adjutant drafts correspondence for my
signature I will give him general parameters of
what my thoughts are based on the document that I'm
going to be signing off, to shepherd his work.
Q. All right. Do you know in
this case what were your recommendations to the
adjutant before you sent him drafting it?
A. I do not remember
communicating to the adjutant "this is what I want
you to write in this letter," but I'll tell you I
wouldn't have signed this letter if I wasn't
satisfied with the recommendations in it. So it's
safe to say, for me anyways, that I was comfortable
with what I was signing.
Q. All right. If we go to
paragraph 2, we can see subparagraphs (a) to (e),
which list a number of issues with which Corporal
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Langridge was unable to deal with that were found
to be causes -- contributing causes to his suicide,
right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. So I can list them quickly.
There would be the overcoming of Operation Athena
in Afghanistan, the death of his father in 2006,
the notification of his mother's diagnosis with
cancer, the medical RTU from March 2007 that we
talked about previously, and his recent positive
test for -- the sensitivity drug test that we
talked about previously as well.
Before you took recognizance of
the findings and recommendations on which I would
assume this letter is based, which of these were
you aware of and which were you not aware of?
A. Sorry; before I communicated
on the 15th of August what I felt to be the
contributing factors...?
Q. Okay, I'll rephrase my
question. The summary investigation came to
certain conclusions that are listed here as five
different causes or probable causes of the suicide.
Before you read the findings and recommendations
you mentioned earlier that you had a certain
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knowledge of Corporal Langridge, so my question is,
before you knew what the findings were, what was
your own -- which of these issues that are
presented here that are listed here were you aware
of?
A. I would say before -- or
based on my recollection anyways, before reading
the investigating officer's report I was aware that
Corporal Langridge had deployed in Operation Athena
Roto 2; I was aware that he had been medically
returned to his unit due to anxiety issues; and I
was aware that he had tested positive for illegal
substances. I don't recall knowing before reading
the investigating officer's report of his father's
death in 2006 or the diagnosis of his mother's
cancer.
Q. Okay. So if we go to the
first one, overcoming events from his Afghanistan
deployment, here it is listed as a contributing
cause to his attempted suicide. When you say you
were aware of it prior to the SI, were you aware
that it was something that was troubling him?
A. Not specifically, no.
Q. And is your understanding
after reading the report that it was something
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troubling him?
A. My understanding was that it
could have potentially been the cause or something
that could have exacerbated his anxiety condition.
Q. That's what you meant by
inserting it in this list; am I correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Similarly with
paragraph (d), the medical RTU of the PLQ course,
my understanding of it being a cause -- and I might
be wrong, you tell me what's your understanding --
is that it's double; there's the anxiety itself
that he presented that caused him to end the course
prematurely, and there's possibly -- and that's why
I'm referring to my understanding -- there's
possibly the second level of anxiety from the fact
that he actually was in a position that he could
not complete the course.
What was your understanding in
putting this item here?
A. Sorry; did you mean that he
may have felt a certain amount of shame and that
caused him additional anxiety?
Q. For instance.
A. That wouldn't be my
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interpretation of it. The way I consider this is
that, first of all, most combat arms soldiers I
know -- I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're
all type A personalities, but most of our troops
are driven and they want to succeed, so clearly he
wouldn't be happy that he had to be returned to his
unit for medical reasons, but I also do know, based
on my extensive experience working with soldiers,
that some of them suffer from anxiety and panic,
and I know that's very difficult for troops to
sometimes take, who pride themselves on being
confident members of a combat arms unit. So to me
-- this might have been a condition that troubled
Corporal Langridge, that he was suffering from
anxiety.
Q. So do I understand you
correctly that what you're saying is that when you
are putting this in here as a probable cause was
the anxiety that was at the root of his not
finishing the course, or am I not getting you
properly? I just didn't get entirely what you
said.
A. Maybe I'm not getting
entirely what you're saying either, ma'am. I think
if you're asking me, do I think that he felt a
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certain level of shame from being returned to the
unit, it's conceivable that he did, you know, but
that wasn't my perception. There were no
indicators to suggest that, number one, he did feel
shame. There was nothing in my dialogue with him
to show that, and certainly I didn't observe any
other soldiers making him feel shameful for having
to return for medical reasons. It happens all the
time.
Q. So what was your perception?
How was this a contributing cause of the attempted
suicide?
A. I'm not a mental health
specialist, but I do know that anxiety and panic
are conditions that are very difficult to deal
with. They can be very frustrating to the people
that have to endure them, so I can see this for a
young, confident, fit combat arms soldier,
realizing that he's suffering from anxiety, that
being very hard to take. That would be my
interpretation of it.
Q. Okay. So lastly, the
positive drug test. In your mind, how was this a
contributing cause of the attempted suicide?
A. Maybe for a similar reason
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for what I've just explained. You have a soldier
who belongs to a very tightly knit team; that team
has to operate under some of the harshest
conditions together, both in training at home and
while deployed abroad. I would imagine that by
testing positive for illegal drug use that Corporal
Langridge might have felt that he let members of
his team down.
Q. And did you have any
discussions with him in this regard?
A. I did.
Q. And what were the contents of
those discussions?
A. Well, it was exactly that,
that he felt that he did let members of his team
down, and I think we had this discussion at the
start of our chat today, and that was at the end of
it he communicated that he wants to become -- or he
wanted to once again become a contributing member
of the regimental family.
Q. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
I remember that discussion was situated in the mid
of January 2008, the discussion where he said that
he wanted to continue contributing.
A. That came up in that
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particular discussion, but in other discussions we
had he had acknowledged that he had let members of
his team down and he wanted to continue making a
positive contribution.
Q. I understand that it is hard
from your perspective to place dates, so I'm just
asking you to make as much effort as you can, but I
understand it cannot be absolutely precise.
When you were writing this letter
in the middle of August had you discussed these
issues at this time with Corporal Langridge?
A. By the middle of August when
I drafted this letter I would have certainly had
discussions with Corporal Langridge about his
condition and some of the challenges that he was
dealing with. I can't place it at a specific
moment in time and I won't try to make that up to
point out where on the map we had that discussion.
MS. McLAINE: If I can interrupt
for a moment, this was not written, it was written
by the adjutant; is that correct?
A. It was.
MS. McLAINE: And signed by you?
A. Signed by me.
MS. McLAINE: Thank you.
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BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. My understanding was before
you signed it-- before the adjutant wrote it you
gave direction as to what was supposed to be the
contents generally of this letter; you gave the
direction to the adjutant?
A. Again, I cannot remember
issuing specific direction for this letter.
However, by signing it I did acknowledge and
endorse its contents.
Q. All right. When you
mentioned your conversations with Corporal
Langridge, what I retained from your accounts is
that -- such an amount of things. I retain that he
wants to continue to contribute at various times
since his drug test and also that he feels some
guilt. Was there anything else that you sensed
during these conversations that either I wouldn't
have picked up from what you said earlier or that
you wouldn't have mentioned?
A. I don't think so, no, ma'am.
Q. So if I summarize, what you
got from your conversations with him was a sense of
guilt and the fact that he wanted to continue to
contribute. What about the suicide attempt itself;
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did you discuss that with him?
A. I don't recall ever getting
into great detail about the specific suicide
attempt, and that's partially just the way I
operate, I think -- and I do this with soldiers
today that have attempted suicide. I think some of
that can be quite sensitive to the individual
that's dealing with it and they might not want to
divulge any details. So instead I focus on their
general state of mind, but I use the opportunity by
talking to them to communicate to them that there
are resources available and that their chain of
command is completely behind them to get through to
the other side of these challenges.
Q. So I bring you to paragraph
3, and to summarize it -- or I'll focus on the
sentence:
"The member is receiving
continued treatment from the
medical community for his
substance abuse issues as
well as counselling for
suicide prevention." [as
read]
This is a statement of fact in his
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letter. So when the letter speaks about treatment
for his substance abuse specifically, do you know
what it refers to?
A. Cocaine and alcohol
dependency?
Q. Yes, the abuse, but the
treatment? Do you know what kind of treatment it
refers to, by whom, when you say this in this
letter, or when the letter said this?
A. No, I wouldn't know the
specific course of action; that was directed by
medical staff. I would know that Corporal Stuart
Langridge had consulted the base addictions
counsellor and that counselling and rehabilitation
was being made available to him.
Q. All right. And what about
the counselling for suicide prevention?
A. The same thing. Clearly,
after a soldier has attempted suicide you mobilize
all medical and mental health assets on the base.
So, again, I know that he was speaking to
physicians and clinicians for mental health issues,
but I would not have known specific modalities of
treatment that had been assigned to him.
Q. And since these are set out
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as two separate or distinct counsellings or
treatments, is it clear to you that he undergoes
treatment that is, one, focused on his addictions,
and second, another treatment or counselling that
is focused on suicide prevention?
A. Not necessarily. I don't
think I would have looked at it in the same way,
and I'm not trying to skirt around an issue here.
To me those are both complex, sensitive issues that
require some sort of medical care. There might be
overlaps in the treatment that he's getting, but I
clearly wouldn't put them in their own separate
place holders.
Q. What I'm getting at, I'm
trying to understand basically what are you
referring to concretely here, since you endorsed
these words here. So I understand that there is
counselling at the base for addiction issues, but
I'm wondering about the counselling for suicide
prevention. Where does that come from?
A. Well, that he's getting
assistance from the mental health community on
base. Keep in mind that us guys in green, members
of the chain of command for the member, are not
allowed to know specifics of his condition or
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specifics of the treatment that he's getting. That
might be more generalized than what you're looking
for, but it is a statement of fact that at that
time I know he was getting therapy, or there were
opportunities being made available for his
addictions and also for his mental health issues as
well.
Q. All right. So if we turn the
page to paragraph 4, it says:
"I have directed my adjutant
to examine the standard
operating procedures involved
in the reaction to and
reporting of the attempted
suicides in order to ensure
confidentiality of the issue
while ensuring the proper
authorities are immediately
made aware of the situation."
[as read]
Can you elaborate a little on what
you meant by examining the standard operating
procedures?
A. In this particular instance,
because two of Stuart's friends found him, and in
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the age of text messaging, Facebook, different
social media sites, as you'll appreciate, news
travels fairly quickly when an incident like this
happens. What the military -- what we try to do,
in the best interests of the member and his family,
is that in times of critical incidents or serious
incidents such as this, we try to control external
communications until, number one, we can ensure the
protection and safety of the soldier, but also
until we can ensure that those around him, his
closest friends and family, have been notified of
the incident.
Q. All right.
A. So in this particular case --
sorry, just to clarify -- I recall that, because
two of his buddies had found him attempting
suicide, that our ability to maintain
communications externally was eroded somewhat. The
word of his attempted suicide spread very quickly.
So in this letter what I communicated to the
commander of 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group is
that we would investigate ways to tighten up that
control of information.
Q. All right. To your knowledge
was that ever done?
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A. I'll be candid to say that it
hasn't really been done. What we are very good at
is controlling information when there's an incident
in an operational theatre such as Afghanistan.
It's easy to flick the switch and initiate a coms
blackout. It's not easy to phone Canada from
Afghanistan with a cell phone. It's infinitely
more difficult to control information in Canada in
garrison when every single soldier, just about,
owns a cell phone, an iPhone or a BlackBerry.
It would be misleading of me to
say that we've cracked that one, because we
haven't.
Q. All right. So we are on the
15th of August and you have reviewed the findings
and recommendations of the SI, and this way you
gained knowledge of at least these five factors
contributing to the suicide, some of which you
already had, and what do you do next? What can you
do next?
A. What you can do is continue
your dialogue with the medical and mental health
community, which is what we did in this particular
case, in an effort to ensure that the resources
that are at our disposal are mobilized for the
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soldier that's in need. Ideally in times like this
we're aided by friends of the soldier and family
members who can also help the unit in creating a
safety net for that soldier while he works through
these issues.
Q. All right. So you mentioned
two things that I caught. You mentioned being able
to kind of monitor what happens, keep informed with
what the medical community does, and also you
mentioned being able to -- I forget the words that
you used, but somehow monitor the safety of the
soldier. Did I get that right?
A. I don't think I would have
worded it like that. Just to clarify, in the
aftermath of an incident like this, when a soldier
is released from medical care, what the unit tries
to create is what we call a care plan to make sure
that, number one, that soldier is educated on the
resources that are available to them if they feel
suicidal once again, who they can call to initiate
support or help, and also to know that they have
support from their unit and the chain of command.
Concurrent to that, knowing that
Corporal Langridge had both attempted suicide, so
clearly in our mind -- and I don't mean to
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oversimplify it, but this is a man that's dealing
with depression -- and knowing that he's also a man
that's dealing with illicit drug dependencies, we
continued to maintain our liaison with the medical
community to make sure that there were
opportunities presented to him to rehabilitate.
Q. How do you do that?
A. The conduit from the unit to
the medical community is the adjutant, in general
terms. Sometimes the regimental sergeant-major
will call over to the medical folks, but as a
default it's the adjutant. In this case it was
Captain Mark Lubiniecki. He maintains routine
dialogue with the nurse care coordinator and lead
physicians at the care delivery unit to make sure
that he's getting the care he needs, with the
caveat, though, that even the unit adjutant is not
allowed to be privy to the specifics of any medical
care that's being provided to the soldier due to
patient confidentiality issues.
Q. And what about your own
knowledge? How does the knowledge of all these
issues get to you?
A. We talk. A leadership team
that's engaged with their soldiers, they
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communicate often. It was not exceptional or rare
for the commanding officer to convene his inner
circle to talk about the pressing issues of the
day, and not just related to Stuart Langridge, but
there were 550 soldiers at that unit, a lot of them
with serious issues concurrent to what Stuart was
dealing with, that we also had to address. So
there would be times where the commanding officer
will get us together; we'd share information; he'd
issue direction; we would keep moving things
forward.
Q. Okay. So between -- I would
situate it even before the results of the SI,
because let's say the results of the SI are one big
source of information for you; am I right?
A. I'm not sure what you're
getting at there, ma'am. I communicated that of
the list of five different things I was aware of at
least three of those issues previously, so the
investigation was a source of information for me.
Q. I was just trying to --
because we were speaking just before this that what
follows the SI as terms of actions what you can do
as the chain of command, and -- actually I didn't
formulate the question very clearly.
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I was trying to see what is the
information that was conveyed to you and that you
obtained through different channels, through all
the channels that you can think of, and I was just
suggesting that SI was one of the channels.
A. You're right; the summary
investigation was one source of information.
Information that we had potentially picked up from
the member through our conversations with him,
soldiers that were familiar with Stuart Langridge
communicated his situation or understanding of his
situation. In our dialogue with the medical
community, again, it's a delicate dance when you're
talking to medical professionals. They have to
respect confidentiality with patients, but they
also know that in front of them they have leaders
that are very concerned about the soldiers under
their care.
So what you have is routine
dialogue to make sure that there are no
obstructions from the unit in any way to enable the
care for the member -- not necessarily no
obstructions, but so that it was clear to us that,
for example, if Stuart Langridge had to leave for
three weeks for rehabilitation, that the unit was
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aware that he was going off for medical treatment,
wouldn't know specifically what, but that he would
not be available for duties at the unit so that we
can understand that he was going to be away and not
be concerned, for example, that he's absent without
leave.
Q. Okay. So generally between
the results of the SI and the end of February what
is the information that you got and what
conclusions about Corporal Langridge's condition
have you made from that information?
A. Based on the information we
have from the time that I signed off on the cover
letter for the summary investigation and the end of
February, again, is that clearly there's a soldier
that has unresolved addictions problems, there's a
soldier that has ongoing mental health problems.
At that point in time we had mobilized the
addictions counsellor. He had an opportunity by
the end of February to undertake a course of
addictions rehabilitation. His family was aware of
the situation and his friends were as well, and we
had continuous ongoing engagement with the medical
community. So we feel that there's a soldier
that's quite sick and requires ongoing medical
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care.
Q. Okay. Were you aware during
that time frame of any other suicide attempts on
his part -- yourself?
A. I was made aware of one
potential suicide attempt while he was staying, I
believe, in Alberta Hospital. That was relayed to
me second hand from the adjutant, and I don't
recall specifically where he received that
information. I have since heard in the preparation
for this hearing in recent months, and I've read in
the media, frankly, that he had up to five suicide
attempts. I did not hear of any of those
additional ones above and beyond the second one in
Alberta Hospital.
Q. And could you situate in time
when you learned of the attempt in the Alberta
Hospital?
A. I would have to refer to my
notes, which I don't have here, and I believe --
for some reason I thought it was the September time
frame of 2007, but I could be mixed up on that
specific date.
Q. Did you take contemporaneous
notes during this time period?
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A. No, I did not, not during
this time period. I'm talking about in preparation
for this hearing.
Q. So you prepared notes in
preparation for this hearing. When did you prepare
them?
A. Around the time that you and
I last spoke.
Q. So that would be at the
beginning of February.
A. I guess so.
Q. All right. I anticipate that
Padre Hubbard will testify to the fact that he
spoke with you about a suicide attempt in the
hospital. Does that ring a bell?
A. Sorry, that Padre Hubbard
will testify that he spoke to me or the adjutant?
Q. At the time, that he spoke to
yourself, then Major Cadieu, about a suicide
attempt around late January, early February.
A. I do not recall speaking with
Will Hubbard about a second suicide attempt.
Q. Okay. Going back to the
suicide attempt in June 2007, and then what you're
telling me about your understanding of Corporal
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Langridge's condition that followed, how would you
assess the risk of self-harm that he posed to
himself in the end of February, beginning of March,
or during the whole time frame?
A. I'd be honest to say it was a
confusing situation, and it was a difficult picture
to comprehend. In my mind, clearly you have a
soldier that's attempted suicide. That's a
significant incident. It means to me that, at the
very least, he's considering taking his own life,
which is significant and I think is telling of the
depth of his depression or mental health issues.
When I would personally speak with
Stuart Langridge, I never once saw a depressed and
deflated man. He maintained a fairly confident
demeanour around me. When trying to assess the
severity of his depression and whether or not
another attempt was imminent, of course we rely on
information that's available through the medical
chain, and not being able to divulge to us specific
interactions or dialogue with the medical
community, we just have to go with what we knew.
And that is, frankly, if Stuart Langridge isn't
committed to a hospital for the provision of care
following a suicide attempt, then the message to us
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is that he doesn't meet the criteria in the medical
community's eyes -- not just the military medical
community, but civilian medical authorities, to be
committed. So that certainly informs our
assessment of his overall situation as well.
Q. Are you aware what those
criteria are?
A. My understanding of the
criteria that civilian medical authorities use to
commit somebody is that the individual has to
communicate suicidal ideation; so they're thinking
about committing suicide. They have to communicate
when they intend to do it and they have to show
that they have the means to commit suicide with the
plan that they've presented.
If a member meets those criteria,
then it's my understanding that civilian medical
authorities will commit an individual.
Q. Okay. Could you formulate
what is your understanding of his condition when he
doesn't meet those criteria but you still have all
that information that you have about him? Where do
you situate -- how do you assess his risk of
self-harm?
A. Okay, are you suggesting,
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though, that at some point the chain of command
became aware that he was having suicidal ideation,
a plan and the resources to do it?
Q. I'm not suggesting. I'm just
asking, what was your assessment of his risk of
self-harm given the information that you had?
A. Okay. Our assessment, and
I'm not a medical professional in case that isn't
abundantly clear, is that we're dealing with a
soldier that has complex mental health and
addictions issues, but when you talk to the soldier
generally speaking he maintains a positive
demeanour. He communicated that he had no plan to
kill himself, and the medical community has told us
that although he's dealing with existing mental
health issues, that clearly he doesn't present an
imminent plan to take his own life, so they won't
commit him.
So how we filter that information,
the assessment we make is that we have to rely on
the professionals, and if they're telling us that
he doesn't pose an imminent threat to himself, then
certainly that needs to inform how we treat this
individual. But at the end of the day I'll be
honest to say that we were very concerned about
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Stuart Langridge's health, even though the medical
community wouldn't commit him. We had seen that he
had attempted suicide; we had seen that he was
addicted to illicit drugs. This was a soldier that
had issues he needed to deal with. We didn't feel
that he was out of that dark place.
Q. Okay. And when you say that
you felt that way, to what time frame do you refer?
A. It's not a point in time;
this is over a continuum. So I would say certainly
when he returns from Edgewood in the January 2008
time frame through to when he commits suicide we
weren't feeling very positive about his situation.
Q. All right. So let me take
you to early March 2008. Can you tell us
specifically in that period what had happened, more
specifically, with regards to Corporal Langridge
from the chain of command perspective?
A. What you mean? Oh, how we
treated that soldier? You're looking for a
discussion on the restrictions?
Q. Yes. I don't want to
suggest, so I just want you to tell us --
A. Well, I know where we're
going.
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Q. -- what happened from the
chain of command's perspective with regards to
Corporal Langridge.
A. Right. My understanding was
that Corporal Langridge was continuing to use
cocaine and alcohol and that he was still depressed
and anxious. I recall a sense of uneasiness --
"uneasiness" is the wrong word, but a sense perhaps
of frustration on the part of the medical community
that Stuart Langridge might not have been
responding to some of the courses of therapy that
had been presented. So in dialogue with the care
delivery unit our understanding was that they
communicated to him that he needed to observe some
restriction; from a medical perspective, that he
needed to abstain from the use of drugs and
alcohol, that he needed to work with his military
chain of command so that he could continue to
improve his situation.
So at that time, in early March
when we looked at his overall picture -- and like I
said before, we didn't feel very positive about it;
we felt he was still depressed, he was still using
drugs, but the medical community would not commit
him. We felt that with Stuart's consent that we
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wanted to impose some restrictions so that we could
better provide him a safety net that wasn't
available to him through the medical community or
through a friends or family network local to the
Edmonton area.
Q. You used the word "we," which
I understand refers to the leadership, to the chain
of command; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. So yourself, how did you get
knowledge of these specific issues in this early
March time frame?
A. When you say the "specific
issues," the restrictions or Stuart's condition?
Q. Both. You mentioned that he
was continuing to use drugs and alcohol and you
mentioned that the medical community was not -- I
will use the word "satisfied;" I don't know if
that's the word that you used -- with regards to
his treatment and that they were not concerned
about his safety to the point of committing him but
that they were still concerned for his safety.
So all these things, how did you
personally get to know?
A. It's through ongoing
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dialogue, bits of information that are gleaned
through various discussions amongst the leaders of
the units with the member, with the medical
community. So I can't put everything in a nice
neat little trench, saying this is where we got
this nugget of information. That's information
that we had collected over the various weeks.
Q. Okay, but you can confirm
that you yourself were aware of these things?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So you mentioned the
conditions or the restrictions. Can you tell us
about those from your own perspective? What did
you know and how, if so, were you involved?
A. So do you want me to review
the restrictions or just how I fit into them?
Q. Well, you can do both. We
can start by reviewing them. First you can tell us
how did it come about that there was mention of
these conditions. How did this concept first come
to your knowledge?
A. Right. That was through a
discussion amongst the leadership of the unit. So
I do recall discussing the restrictions with the
adjutant, Mark Lubiniecki, and the regimental
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sergeant-major, Chief Warrant Officer Doug Ross,
now Captain Ross. The genesis of those
restrictions, from a situational perspective, was
our observation of the individual; continued drug
use, continued depression, and we felt that he
still may have been suicidal. So we felt that an
additional safety net was required.
How those restrictions came about,
my understanding was that it was a discussion
between Mark Lubiniecki, Doug Ross and the medical
folks outlining an additional safety net that we
could provide to the member to ensure better
accountability, but also to make sure that he's in
a safer environment for himself.
Q. And what was your part in all
of this? Did you have any involvement in it?
A. I didn't have involvement in
the drafting of the restrictions or the dialogue
with the medical community, keeping in mind, as I
said before, our conduit to the medical folks is
the adjutant. So he has that discussion with him
and sometimes the regimental sergeant-major does as
well. My role in this would be more there as a
sounding board for that team to discuss what we
were considering for additional safety measures for
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him. And certainly my understanding of them, it
made perfectly good sense to me, as a leader who is
concerned about Stuart Langridge's health and
addictions problems, that as long as he was okay
with them, then those were measures we were
prepared to take to better look after him.
Q. Okay. Have you ever seen
these restrictions, conditions, written down?
A. I have.
Q. At the time, I mean.
A. No, not at the time. I think
the first time I saw them written down -- but I
discussed all of them previously verbally -- would
have been in the significant incident report that
was generated following his suicide.
Q. All right. So before the
suicide your knowledge of the conditions was -- its
source was verbal. So you knew them -- what did
you know of the conditions? What were they, just
from memory, not referring to any document that you
did not have at the time?
A. Right. For establishing a
link of my memory of those conditions four years
after the fact or a couple weeks after the fact, I
think I would have greater fidelity on them four
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years ago, but based on my verbal discussions with
Doug Ross and Mark Lubiniecki, it was that Stuart
Langridge was to live in the duty centre at the
regiment, that he would leave the regiment only
after notifying the duty officer, that his
medications would be held by the duty officer and
administered to him in accordance with directions
from his physician, that Stuart was to check in
every couple hours with the duty officer present,
that the duty officer would register when he
checked in.
Q. I understand that you told us
that you did not have specific involvement in
generating these conditions or even approving them;
am I right?
A. The commanding officer is the
approving authority at the unit. I would act as an
adviser to him but, to be clear though -- I'm not
trying to side-step any responsibility in these
conditions -- I was apprised of them before they
were implemented for the member and they made a lot
of sense to me given my understanding of the
seriousness of his health condition.
Q. Okay. So these conditions,
was there a time frame put on them? Like what was
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the perspective?
A. There was no time frame put
on them that I can recall, and I can remember
having a discussion with Stuart about these
conditions as well, and I do know, although I
wasn't privy to the details of it, but that Chief
Warrant Officer Doug Ross had a discussion with him
as well. It was very much a -- it was a mutual
exchange to say essentially, listen Stuart, we know
that you're not well right now. You're still
addicted to drugs, you're suffering from
depression, you've attempted suicide previously,
we're damned scared that you're going to do it
again, potentially. We would like to put some
measures in place to better ensure your safety. Is
that acceptable to you? And he communicated to us,
and to me specifically, that he understood what we
were trying to do and that he'd respect those
conditions. And my understanding is Doug Ross had
the same conversation with him.
Q. Okay. At the time you knew
that he had been to treatment, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that the medical
community was not -- there was something wrong in
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the treatment, if I can summarize in very general
terms.
A. What was wrong with the
treatment?
Q. The treatment was not
successful, that the medical community did that
back to you at the time that the conditions were
put on him?
A. I recall that Stuart did not
successfully complete his rehabilitation.
Q. All right. So did you, in
this context -- I'm just repeating the context --
in this context did you give thought at the time --
maybe not -- to what would happen if he would not
follow the conditions?
A. Of course you're suggesting
was there a possibility that he might face
disciplinary or administrative action if he did not
adhere to the conditions. Is that the real
question?
Q. That's not the question I'm
asking. I'm asking what would have been -- did you
think about, did you discuss, did you consider what
would happen if he did not follow the conditions?
A. From an administrative
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disciplinary perspective, no. I certainly didn't
have that discussion with either of the adjutant or
the regimental sergeant-major, but in my mind it
was our understanding that this is something that
we're going to do for the individual to better
ensure his safety and protection, and it was clear
to us that, as the medical folks would not commit
him, that we could not hold him without his own
will. So he communicated to us, Stuart did, that
he understood what we were trying to do and that
he'd respect those conditions.
I don't think Stuart had any fear
of reprisal. All my interactions with that soldier
was that, although I knew he suffered from anxiety
and panic, never -- or I should just say anxiety,
was my understanding -- he never once presented
himself as nervous or anxious in my presence. He
had no fear of speaking to power, and he had no
fear of raising objections to various issues when
he felt like he wanted to. So I really didn't
think that Stuart had any problems with some of the
measures that we were putting in place to better
ensure his safety and protection.
Q. Okay. You might be aware
that some witnesses or some documents are to the
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effect that he actually did formulate objections to
these conditions. Did he communicate any such
objections to you?
A. Never.
Q. Okay. Did you know about any
objections of his?
A. No.
Q. So when you were speaking
about him not fulfilling the conditions for being
committed, if he did fulfil these conditions to be
committed, where would he have been committed?
A. The hospital.
Q. So that wouldn't be an army
hospital then; it would be a civilian hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So when you're
referring to the fact that you were getting the
message that he could not be committed, that
message would come from where?
A. Well, you can make a fairly
safe assumption that if a doctor is not telling you
he needs to be in the hospital, that he doesn't
feel that he's met the criteria that he poses an
imminent threat to himself or his friends. So we
would expect to be told by medical and mental
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health professionals that he's imminently suicidal
and therefore needs to be committed. We hadn't
received that information. We were still concerned
about his health, welfare and safety, so we wanted
to impose these additional measures to help provide
him that safety net that, frankly, we didn't think
he had external to the unit.
Q. And what about, even though
he didn't meet those criteria from a medical
perspective, he voluntarily would want to be
committed for treatment or his own safety?
A. What about it?
Q. Like what would be your --
actually, I'll take you directly to Tab 30. You
wouldn't have seen this document at the time. This
document is a discharge summary and it is dated
March 5, 2008 and it is signed by Dr. Bernard Sowa,
who did testify already before the commission. I
am directing you to page 2 at the bottom, and I'll
read out loud the part that concerns me.
"Our plan was to keep him --
referring to Corporal
Langridge -- in the hospital
until he could be discharged
directly to the military. He
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certainly was not certifiable
at the end of the first
certificate." [as read]
That would refer to what you
talked about, about being committed.
"He agreed to stay in the
hospital as a voluntary
patient until arrangements
could be made for him to
return to a drug
rehabilitation program." [as
read]
I'll stop right here. Were you
aware of such a situation?
A. In this particular incident,
no.
Q. Okay. That would be at the
beginning of March that he would voluntarily want
to stay in hospital until he would attend a
rehabilitation program. You were not aware. Were
you aware in other situations, because you said not
this particular situation?
A. We were just talking about
the restrictions, or I would prefer the word
"measures", that we put in place to look after his
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safety. He volunteered for those as well, so that
would be an example of something he volunteered
for. So I wasn't privy to these notes until I
spoke to you last time.
Q. Okay. So let me continue:
"Unfortunately, the military
called us to inform us that
actually they did want him
back at the garrison and that
they would make their own
arrangements for him to be
referred to a drug rehab
program. We were rather
surprised by this as Stuart
had indicated his willingness
to stay with us in hospital
so that that could be done.
However, based on that
request he was escorted the
day after his certificate
expired directly to the
military garrison and handed
over to his sergeant, and
this was done on the 5th of
March." [as read]
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Were you aware of this at the
time?
A. No, and I'd want to know who
this member from the chain of command is. I could
tell you categorically that nobody from our unit
would order Stuart Langridge to leave a
rehabilitation program to return to the military.
I just told you we believed he was an extremely
sick soldier who was still addicted to drugs and
was suffering from depression. In our mind, the
safest and the best place for Stuart to be was
committed to either a rehabilitation program or
committed to the hospital. So nobody in green in
their right mind would direct Corporal Stuart
Langridge to leave a rehabilitation program. When
I say "green" I'm talking a combat arms leader from
his unit at the Strathconas. It won't have
happened, and had it I would have known about it,
the commanding officer would have known about it,
the regimental sergeant-major would have and so
would have the adjutant.
Q. So what I'm taking from what
you're saying, that to your knowledge nobody in the
chain of command was privy to this decision.
A. Correct. First of all, I'm
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extremely confident that that's the case, but I
don't think there was a mechanism that, if the
chain of command wanted to contact the
rehabilitation clinic, that we could actually do
that, keeping in mind that, number one, we don't
actually know, when he goes off for a program,
where he's staying, and, number two, we don't have
direct communications with organizations like this.
If we want to talk to the medical community, we go
through the nurse care coordinator at the care
delivery unit. So they would not have heard from a
member of Stuart's chain of command saying, no, we
get it, he wants to stay there, we're bringing him
back anyways. I don't understand it.
Q. Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm looking for
an opportunity. I don't know how your timing is
with this witness, how much longer.
MS. CERNACEK: At least an hour.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We should
at least take a short break, but in terms of
examination, I don't know where we're going to go.
We'll have to play this by ear.
MS. McLAINE: Mr. Chair, if I may,
I would just like to note that the witness needs to
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leave this evening on a plane at 8 p.m., so we do
have to finish today.
MS. CERNACEK: I will wrap up for
sure.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I guess
obviously we have to do that.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: And we're
quite prepared to extend beyond the 4:30 deadline,
if that's acceptable.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm fine
with it. Our court reporter I'm not -- and I'm not
too worried about the -- is there anybody using
French translation? So that may not be an issue,
so we only have to worry about the reporter.
We'll just take 10 minutes to give
everybody a chance to have a break.
--- Upon recessing at 2:52 p.m.
--- Upon resuming at 3:05 p.m.
BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. I would like to get back to
the measures that you referred to. You are
probably aware that there has been a certain amount
of discussion about these conditions being or not
being a suicide watch. I would like you to share
your point of view on this.
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A. Yes, ma'am. I've been
involved in several suicide watches over the years.
A suicide watch is when a member communicates that
they intend to hurt themselves or somebody else and
they have the resources to do it and clearly they
have a plan in place. Until you can get that
individual to medical care and commit them to a
hospital under the supervision of a qualified
clinician, under those exceptional circumstances
there are times when you require a suicide watch
until you can get him to the hospital.
So generally speaking when you
hear "suicide watch," it's for a short period of
time. It is 24 and 7 observation on the affected
soldier. It is, in essence, posting a guard to
keep an eye on that soldier who doesn't leave the
individual unsupervised for a minute, including to
go to the washroom or anything like that. It is a
dedicated watch until you can transform to medical
care.
Q. All right. Have you
experienced such watches yourself?
A. I have. I have sat as a
guard on suicide watches previously.
Q. What would you say about the
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connection that is made by some between these
measures and suicide watch?
A. The measures are not a
suicide watch. Maybe it's hard to understand
looking in, but in my mind it's crystal clear that
if you're putting somebody on suicide watch you do
not leave them unattended, and it's for a short
period of time until you can get them to the
hospital and get them committed.
What we had established for Stuart
through these measures was we believed that we were
providing him an additional safety net that he
didn't have external to the unit, nor did he have
through the medical community at that particular
point in time.
Q. Okay. Are you aware of any
either suicide watches or measures that you would
not call suicide watches but that were aimed at
protecting him prior to the measures put on him at
the beginning of March 2008?
A. I am not aware of any others.
Q. Okay. We've heard two
testimonies referring to a suicide watch having
been ordered on Corporal Langridge around Christmas
2007. Does that ring a bell?
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A. No, it does not.
Q. Okay. And we also heard
testimony about an aborted suicide watch that would
have been ordered but then not implemented on the
7th of March 2008.
A. No, I'm not aware of that.
Q. Before going to the day of
the 15th of March 2008, I would like to ask you,
during the time frame when Corporal Langridge was
under these measures and he was living at the duty
centre, did you speak to him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. So what were the
contents of the communications with him at that
time, and what was your perception of him as well?
A. My perception, and this is my
experience talking to Stuart throughout this entire
process, although I know that he was suffering from
depression and anxiety and he ultimately killed
himself, which speaks to the depth of his
situation, I can honestly say that never in my
dialogue with Stuart Langridge did I see him to be
down, visibly depressed, nervous or anxious. He
always struck me, including in March while being
voluntarily subject to those measures, he seemed to
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have a fairly positive outlook to me. And what I
mean by that is a communication that he wanted to
carry on as a member of our regimental family, as
part of our team, to get through this and carry on.
Q. Okay. I understand that, and
correct me if I'm wrong, you had this type of
conversation, the sense of him wanting to continue
to contribute at various moments between the
suicide attempt and March 2008.
Please speak up because they have
to pick up -- they cannot pick up when you -- you
have to be heard out.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think
there was a question there yet, so he probably
didn't answer it too much.
MS. CERNACEK: Oh, sorry.
BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. So in spite of that, what I
get from what you told us is the knowledge that he
did not successfully complete his treatment and
that when he tried to go to the Reccy Squadron that
that didn't work out either, and that then in March
you devised these measures in order to help him
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out. So this is a time frame of many months,
almost it's coming close to a year.
At this point my question would
be, what was your perspective in the medium and
long term? How would you deal with it after
implementing these measures? What was the plan?
A. The plan. It was clear to us
and, unfortunately, to start with, like I said
before, Stuart Langridge was not the first soldier
we had encountered that was depressed and suicidal.
He was not the first soldier that we've encountered
that had an illicit drug addiction. He's not the
first soldier we've encountered with mental health
issues. So we know that each individual is unique
and that these things are complicated and complex
and that there's no standard templated solution
that you can just apply to any one individual.
So when we looked at Stuart's
situation in the March 2008 time frame it was clear
to us that he had a lot of ground to cover. And
what I mean by that is he was still, in our mind, a
sick young man who was still addicted to drugs, who
was still suffering from depression.
So we believed that he had in
front of him additional efforts to rehabilitate,
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and in the unit's mind we would continue to provide
him any support that he required to get that
assistance. So as far as the way ahead, continued
rehabilitation and mental health therapy until he
was able to reintegrate fully with the team.
Q. For how long?
A. Again, I go back to my
initial statement; there is no templated solution.
I didn't look at Stuart and say, okay, this is
going to take 30 days. I don't know. Nobody knows
the answer to that. People respond to
rehabilitation efforts in different ways. I guess
the answer to that would be as long as it took.
Q. Is this your personal answer
or was this discussed and considered within the
chain of command at the time?
A. This is my personal answer,
to be clear. Everything I'm providing you today is
what I feel, it's my perspective in this. In this
particular instance, yes, the chain of command was
unified that we would provide the support
mechanisms that Stuart would need to get through
this.
Q. That brings us to the day of
15 March 2008. Can you tell us, in what
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circumstances did you learn of Corporal Langridge's
death?
A. I had just attended Trooper
Michael Hayakaze's funeral. He had been killed by
a roadside bomb in Afghanistan. I was driving back
onto the base. I was driving past what you
referred to as the shacks, the single quarters, at
which point my phone rang. It was Major Earl
Jared, who you'll speak to next, I understand, and
he communicated to me that he learned from the duty
staff that Corporal Langridge had committed
suicide. That's how I learned of his death.
Q. So what was your reaction to
those news?
A. Well, shock. You know, we
had just mourned the loss of another one of our
family and we've learned at a time when we're
mourning that soldier and also trying to look after
his family during that very dark and difficult time
that another one of our family had passed away
under tragic circumstances. It was very difficult
news to deal with.
Q. We have heard testimony to
the fact that there was negative reaction amongst
soldiers towards Corporal Langridge's death. Did
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you have cognizance of that within the chain of
command and, if so, what did you do with that?
A. First of all, did I
personally observe members of the chain of command,
so the leadership of the Strathconas, angry about
Corporal Langridge's decision to take his own life
the day of Hayakaze's funeral? The answer to that
is no. Is it conceivable that some soldiers had a
hard time comprehending why he chose to take his
life on that day and it created some frustration
with them? The answer to that would be yes. But
what I did not see was this universal anger that
Stuart Langridge had committed suicide that day.
The message that came out of the
command cell, so from the commanding officer, 2IC,
the regimental sergeant-major and the adjutant --
and I can remember having this discussion amongst
the inner circle and then communicating it to the
squadron commanders -- was very clearly Stuart
Langridge was in a very dark spot. We knew he was
depressed, suffering from anxiety. He took his own
life. I think that's very hard for people to
comprehend, how somebody would get to that
situation, but it was clear to everybody that his
situation was serious.
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Q. So what was your role after
that?
A. Immediately after learning
it, the commanding officer had his duties in the
notification process, keeping in mind that we were
hosting a reception for the Hayakaze family at the
Harvey Building, so at Strathcona lines. My
responsibility was to continue providing support to
the Hayakaze family, to make sure that they were
looked after while the adjutant and the commanding
officer initiated notification procedures.
Q. Okay. And in the following
days?
A. In the following days, and I
think this will be a chat here, shortly I initiated
on behalf of the commanding officer what I call the
casualty care meeting. Let me know when you want
to discuss that, but that was my primary
responsibility initially in order to initiate the
administrative and support mechanisms for Stuart
Langridge's family.
Q. Did you have the same
responsibilities in the post-death administration
of the previous soldier?
A. I did.
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Q. So that the responsibilities
of the 2IC were post-death?
A. No, that is not a formal
responsibility of the second in command but,
unfortunately, one of the things that we had come
to realize, not only through Michael Hayakaze's
death but the death of other soldiers, the serious
injury from combat operations in Afghanistan; we
had dealt with amputations, severe mental health
trauma; we realized that in times like this they
were extremely complicated. Just as there's no
template for how you're supposed to rehabilitate a
soldier, there's no template on what that soldier's
family and friends are like as well.
We had learned through previous
deaths and serious injury that some families
reunified, others there were separations. There
are complex and sensitive issues in these cases,
financial matters, and the whole purpose of the
casualty care meeting was in essence to acknowledge
the lessons that we had learned from previous
experiences such as this and then bring together
collectively the staff that would have to look
after the post-death administration, number one.
And number two, I think you'll see it both in the
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agenda that I released for the meeting, but also
the minutes, that first and foremost in our mind
was making sure we were doing the right things for
Stuart Langridge's family, and when I say "family"
I mean both his common law spouse and his parents
as well.
Q. Right. So let's go to that
email that you sent out regarding the meeting.
It's at Tab 39. So it says.
"In order to ensure the needs
of Corporal Langridge's
family are addressed in the
coming weeks and given the
potential administrative
complexities..." [as read]
You just mentioned such an
instance, but was there anything specific in this
case that you would have recalled at the time that
you sent the email, which is on the 16th of March,
in the afternoon, that were potential
administrative complexities?
A. There are general ones.
There's nothing specific to Stuart Langridge's
case, but rather there were sensitivities from
previous deaths that we had dealt with that we knew
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would need to be addressed, such as the designation
of next of kin for the purpose of benefits, such as
funeral and estate planning, such as the initiation
of various investigations that happen in the
immediate aftermath of a death or serious injury.
It was a general statement.
Q. Okay. So before we go into
the meeting itself I will take you to Tab 37, and
this is an email sent by Lieutenant-Colonel Demers,
who was the CO at the time, to Captain Lubiniecki,
and cc'd to yourself and other people. It is an
email about the notification to Ms. Hamilton-Tree,
who was Corporal Langridge's common law wife at the
time. And in the first paragraph it says:
"She has a good relationship
with Corporal Langridge's
mother and stepfather so I'm
optimistic that things will
go okay." [as read]
And at the bottom of the second
paragraph it says:
"We'll find out what his
mother wants to do for the
funeral. I hope they don't
fight about the plan." [as
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read]
You mentioned when you spoke about
the purpose of that convening email that one of the
purposes of the meeting was to delineate who the
PNOK was for purposes of benefits and also for
funeral planning. This email is sent on the 15th
of March, so the day of death.
I'm reading it, but correct me if
I'm wrong -- what was your understanding of it.
I'm reading it when it says, we'll find out what
his mother wants do for the funeral, as if it was
understood that what his mother wants for the
funeral would guide you. Is my understanding
accurate?
A. I see Pascal Demers' email
through a different prism. I don't think it
necessarily implies that. He communicates that
Rebecca sees herself as his wife, and it's
important that the chain of command ensure that the
wishes of Stuart's mother inform the decision
making process. I personally do not see him
leaning either way in designation of next of kin
for benefits, if that's what you're implying, by
this email itself.
Q. So what was your
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understanding at the time of what this meant with
respect to the funeral planning?
A. Maybe I'm too simple with
these things sometimes, but when my boss sends an
email out and says, okay, team, here is the issue:
He has a wife, he has a mother, let's make sure
that we find out what their wishes are, I take that
at face value. The issue of next of kin for the
purpose of benefits, to be completely frank with
you, I hadn't wrapped my mind around that at this
particular point. It wasn't until we bring all the
stakeholders into the room that we can look at the
various documents and make a recommendation to the
commanding officer as to who that should be.
Q. Am I understanding you well
that you did not have determination -- you did not
read the determination at this time, on the 15th of
March, of who would be responsible for the funeral
arrangements?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Then I direct you to Tab 43,
and this is an email dated 17 March and it's 10:37
a.m. I had forgotten to underline in the convening
email that the coordinating meeting was convened
for 1 p.m. on the 17th. So this would precede the
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coordinating meeting.
It is an email from
Lieutenant-Colonel Demers to yourself. There are
previous emails that precede the last email that is
on the top of the page, but I'm currently concerned
only by the last email, which is Colonel Demers'.
So he says to you:
"Given the docs on file, it
seems Rebecca is PNOK, so we
need to follow her wishes."
[as read]
What was your understanding of the
statement? Of course you can look at the document
as a whole.
A. If you're asking me for my
interpretation of the commanding officer's line, it
seems Rebecca is PNOK, that would imply to me that
the commanding officer at 10:37 in the morning on
the 17th of March believed that Rebecca was the
primary next of kin for the purpose of benefits,
okay.
Now, as far as how I synthesized
that information, I think you do need to then go to
the meeting that we had that afternoon and the
agenda that was put out to say, we need to consider
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-- I believe it's part of the agenda points -- any
documents that delineate primary next of kin.
So while retrospectively now we
can look back at this and say, what were you
thinking at 10:37, an hour and a half or two and a
half hours before your meeting. I don't know what
I was thinking at that particular point in time.
In fact, it's conceivable that I didn't even read
this email until after the meeting started. I
don't know that either.
Q. Was Lieutenant-Colonel Demers
present at the meeting?
A. No, he was not.
Q. Who chaired the meeting?
A. I chaired the meeting.
Q. So are you saying that you
don't remember whether you read this email before
going into the meeting?
A. I don't remember as to
whether or not I read this email before the
meeting.
Q. Have you seen any documents
on file prior to the meeting?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. So who was present at the
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meeting?
A. I remember -- this is off the
top of my head here. Obviously I was chairing the
meeting; Mark Lubiniecki as the adjutant; Adam
Brown, he was Rebecca's assisting officer; and
Keith Reichert was the AJAG that was present. I
can't remember off the top of my head who else was
at that meeting.
Q. Can you give us a sense of
the contents of the meeting and how it went?
MS. McLAINE: Without discussing
any legal advice that was offered to you, just to
caution.
A. Understood.
Can I go back to the agenda?
BY MS. CERNACEK:
Q. You mean the convening email?
A. Yes.
Q. That was at Tab 39.
A. Perhaps one of my weaknesses
is I'm a very deliberate, linear person, and when I
prepare an agenda for a meeting such as this, this
is exactly how I would have carried out the
meeting. So what I communicated to the team prior
to the meeting were the points that we needed to
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address at that specific point in time. I recall
at the meeting we followed these points for the
most part and tried to address any key
administrative issues that would need to be
resolved in the coming days.
In essence, this is part of a
deliberate problem solving process, so one of the
issues were the problems that we need to deal with
and who's going to be responsible to advance these
issues in the days and weeks to follow.
Q. So previously when we were
looking at this email you told us in general terms
that the term "potential administrative
complexities" referred to something general, but
now we're at the meeting and what were the main
concerns that emerged in this particular case in
this particular meeting?
A. One, which I think you're
getting at, is the designation of next of kin for
the purpose of benefits, not because we didn't see
that as a particularly sensitive issue because of
anything we had seen up to that point in time
between Rebecca and Stuart's parents, but rather we
know the implications of a decision like that are
significant in terms of having influence over
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funeral proceedings, the handling of the member's
estate and monetary benefits as well. So that was
something that we wanted to get right the first
time.
Q. Are there not regulations or
guidelines in place that would direct what there
should be in the documents on file? Does it have
to be a case-by-case decision? Are there not
guidelines?
A. Well, it is a case-by-case
thing and it is driven by extant documents that are
on the member's personnel file. The documents that
are used to determine next of kin for the purpose
of benefits is first and foremost what is recorded
on the member's record of personnel resumé, the
MPRR that communicates next of kin for those
purposes. Sometimes there's confusion, and I know
in this particular case that there's confusion
between primary next of kin for the purposes of
emergency notification and primary next of kin for
the purposes of benefits.
So in this case documents that
would be considered his supplementary death
benefits, which gets paid out to the beneficiary
that's stated on that document, and the recipient
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that we were aware of was Rebecca Hamilton-Tree.
We consider the will and we consider the member's
marital status as reflected both, in his case, his
common law documents and his MPRR, as to who the
beneficiary of military benefits would be.
Q. So did you have these
documents in hand at the meeting?
A. We had some of the documents
in hand at this meeting. I believe we had the
member's PEN form, the supplementary death
benefits, and I think his MPRR. That's what we had
considered at that particular meeting.
Q. Did you have the will?
A. I don't recall seeing the
will at that meeting.
Q. Was the absence of the will
discussed?
A. I recall dialogue that at the
conclusion of the meeting, based on the documents
that we had seen, our understanding that Rebecca
would be designated as the primary next of kin for
the purpose of benefits, but it was agreed as well
that we should consider any other documents that
may exist out there. The will would be one of
those documents.
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Q. When you say that it was
discussed that Rebecca would be designated as the
primary next of kin for purposes of benefits, the
term "would be designated," would that be an
outcome of the meeting?
A. No, it would be the staff
getting together, discussing the documents on file
and then making a recommendation to the commanding
officer who would, based on the advice that he was
getting from his staff, make that determination.
Q. And what would that advice be
based on, just to be clear?
A. That advice would be based on
the input from stakeholders at that meeting as well
as the documents that we had reviewed.
Q. Okay. So besides the
contents of the documents you say the input from
the stakeholders. So what was discussed; what was
said during the meeting by the stakeholders?
A. I can't remember the
specifics of everything that was discussed. I
remember the outcome, or certainly what my
interpretation of the documents that we had, or the
advice that we had received, and the advice that I
had given to the commanding officer as well.
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Q. So what was the advice that
you had given to the commanding officer?
A. That Rebecca be designated as
primary next of kin for the purpose of benefits,
but that very clearly, as we moved forward with
funeral planning and estate planning, that the
needs and the wishes of the family, meaning
Stuart's parents, be paramount and be considered
very carefully.
Q. You mentioned that one of the
documents that you remember being there at the
meeting was common law statutory declaration. That
is at Tab 24.
So on the first page, the
declaration of the common law relationship between
Corporal Langridge and Rebecca Hamilton-Tree, and
it is signed, declared, on the 7th of December
2007. And when you go to the second page, it is
signed for Lieutenant-Colonel Demers on the 12th of
December, I believe by yourself.
A. Yes ma'am.
Q. Do you remember the
circumstances of your signing this document?
A. I do not remember signing
this specific document. To put that into context,
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though, I sign dozens and dozens of common law
declarations, so this one, although we look back
retrospectively and realize the significance of it,
when I signed that document there would be no
purpose for me to commit that actual signing to
memory.
Q. Okay. Besides the existence
of this document at the meeting, was anything
factual discussed regarding Corporal Langridge's
relationship with Ms. Hamilton-Tree?
A. Of course you're referring to
the problems that they had had. I don't remember
specifically discussing it. I do remember looking
at the situation in terms of my own personal
situation.
At the time of Stuart's death, on
my personal emergency notification form I had my
twin brother as my primary next of kin for the
purposes of notification because he was the
strongest one in the family that could take that
news and disseminate it to everybody else. My mom
was secondary. I was in a common law marriage
relationship at the time. She was not on my PEN
form for the purposes of notification, which made
sense to me. Nothing stood out to me from Stuart's
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documents.
When you talk about his
relationship with Rebecca, although I do not recall
discussing at that particular meeting, I did become
aware of it at some point, and I don't know exactly
when, that there was some friction between Stuart
and Rebecca, that she was having problems dealing
with his addictions. Again, I can go back to my
personal situation and say at some point my common
law wife and I were separated -- military life is
tough sometimes, it does those things to families
-- but never once did I take her off of my benefits
or think that that would change that arrangement.
So when we looked at his
situation, given the documents that we had and the
advice we had received, we believed that his common
law wife, given that this document communicated
that he was legally married, would be the recipient
of those benefits.
Q. Okay. So do I understand
properly from all that you've said that the main
basis for the direction that Ms. Hamilton-Tree
would be the one who would have the authority over
funeral planning was the common law declaration?
A. That would be the primary
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document.
Q. Okay. So I understand there
is no specific form that would allow a soldier to
-- or let me rephrase.
Do you know of a document that the
soldier could sign and fill in that would enable
him to specifically designate someone in particular
for the decision making power over funeral
arrangements?
A. Yes; the common law form.
It's a document that, when you sign it, it lays out
specifically that we're authorized by law to reside
in Canada on a permanent basis, that we undertake
to hold one another as husband and wife. It's
explained to the member when he goes after or seeks
common law recognition what the implications of
that are. You're getting married in the eyes of
the military.
Q. Is this your personal
interpretation?
A. Yes, it's my personal
interpretation.
Q. You mentioned that Captain
Brown at the time was present at the meeting.
During this meeting was there any discussion or
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anything said about his duties, any direction given
to him at that point?
A. I don't recall issuing
specific direction to Adam Brown at that meeting.
I do recall having a discussion with Adam Brown to
say, listen, this is the first time that you've
ever had to be an assisting officer for a family
member that's grieving the loss of a loved one.
You need to approach this with compassion and you
need to make sure that you're sensitive to the
requirements of the family.
So I can recall having that
discussion with this young soldier at the regiment.
I cannot remember if it happened at that meeting or
external to that.
Q. Okay. I'm taking you to Tab
44, and this is an email dated the 17th of March,
close to 4 p.m., and in the subject line it says
"Casualty coordination meeting, CO's direction."
So when it refers in the subject
line to the CO's direction, what would that mean?
Since you are writing the email, can you explain
how did that come together?
A. So when I explained earlier
the process that I used before I sign for the
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commanding officer, the same goes when I convey his
direction or his behalf. I hope you appreciate
that those few days following both Hayakaze's
funeral and Stuart Langridge's death there were a
lot of things going on and various meetings. Some
of these things blurred together. But when I
communicate in that email and include my commanding
officer on distribution to it and I say that this
summarizes the boss's direction, it means I've
briefed him beforehand on the results of the
meeting and that I'm communicating on his behalf to
the team where we need to go for the next step.
Q. Okay. So you have different
subtitles in there, and the first one is "Admin."
I'll direct you to where, under admin, it says
"Confirm status of will and any other admin
potentially designating NOK that we have not yet
seen."
In parenthesis it says "Padre
assisting officer AJ."
When you say "confirm status of
will," do you remember what you referred to?
A. Yes. By this -- I'll just go
back to the comment I made previously that we
understood the significance of this decision of
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designating next of kin for the purpose of benefits
and wanting to get it right the first time.
So what you see reflected in this
email is directed, first of all, to make sure that
we've reviewed the member's will, which, although
in this case did not influence or change the
decision to designate next of kin for the purposes
of benefits, we needed to make sure that we had
that information before we moved forward, and just
making absolute sure that there were no other
documents out there other than those that we've
already considered in making that decision or that
designation.
Q. Are you aware whether the
status of the will was confirmed afterwards?
A. Yeah. At the end of the
sentence there is, in brackets, "Padre, assisting
officer, adjutant." Generally what I do when I'm
communicating or relaying direction, in the
brackets at the end of it, those are the folks that
I hold responsible to get that done. So my
understanding was that the adjutant confirmed the
status of the will following that meeting -- or
following that direction.
Q. Okay. And do you know what
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the status of will was?
A. My understanding was that the
will that was accessible to the adjutant at that
time named Stuart Langridge's mother as the
beneficiary of his estate.
Q. Do you remember who the
executor was?
A. I can't off the top of my
head, no.
Q. And when it refers to "other
admin potential designating NOK," what would that
have been? What could have that been?
A. It was a general statement.
It was more or less a line to just say, listen,
let's just make sure that we've considered every
possible document that we can out there. So it was
a blanket statement to say, let's review everything
that we have.
Q. Okay. Then the next line
says, "Once latest copy of LDB is confirmed
process." Why did you refer to latest copy of LDB
being confirmed?
A. A lot of these documents, a
will for example, although you make changes to it,
you won't change a will annually, generally
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speaking. Some documents, though, change more
frequently. One is the emergency notification
forms, PEN forms. You fill dozens of those out in
the course of your career. Supplementary death
benefits, again, because it's not linked to a
specific member of your family necessarily, it's
who you feel should get two years of your pay in
the aftermath of your death. Sometimes soldiers
change their mind on that, so that direction again
was just saying, all right, number one, we need to
process that document as soon as possible so that
we're not withholding any benefits from the
beneficiary of the supplementary death benefits,
but let's just verify on his personal file that we
have the most recent copy signed and endorsed by
the member.
Q. Okay. So from what you're
saying, I understand then this email summarizing
CO's direction was not a definitive one. Do I get
it right?
A. Well, some of it was, some of
it wasn't. We would have to go through every
point, and we can do that, but, for example, family
support, confirm the family wishes for the funeral,
that's definitive direction from the commanding
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officer to contact the family and determine what
their wishes are for the funeral.
There were some things that still
needed to be resolved in our mind. These are
complex things. There's a lot of administration
and it's not going to get solved on a dime, so some
of it was ongoing, some of it was decisive and able
to be actioned immediately.
Q. And when it says "confirm
final wishes for the funeral," can you precise to
who it refers?
A. In my mind that's the entire
family. So to be clear, at this point in time, in
my mind anyways, Rebecca is the primary next of kin
for the purposes of benefits, but also if there was
a discrepancy between what Stuart's parents wanted
and what Rebecca wanted and they couldn't resolve
it amongst themselves, then at that point we would
default to the wishes of Rebecca. But for the
purposes of this email, confirm the family's wishes
for the funeral, what I meant by that was Rebecca
and Stuart's parents.
Now, you might take me down to the
next line where I delineate, "discuss with both
sides of the family the involvement of Corporal
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Hillier." To me there's no distinguishment. When
I refer to the family in this email it means both
sides. If I want to refer to Rebecca, I'd either
say PNOK or Rebecca.
Q. So what is your knowledge of
how this developed, how this was implemented, let's
say?
A. Which part, ma'am?
Q. The decision about the
funeral planning, who decided what and how did it
go.
A. I thought it went very well.
Initially anyways my understanding was that there
was a very collaborative relationship between
Rebecca and Stuart's parents. There were some
things that Rebecca wanted that Stuart's parents
didn't. Our communication throughout was, although
Rebecca was the primary next of kin for the
purposes of benefits and funeral planning, that
clearly Stuart's parents would have to inform this
process. So an example of that I can provide you,
if I recall correctly, Rebecca wanted Stuart
cremated; Stuart's parents did not. Stuart
Langridge was buried, he was not cremated. So to
me that's an indication that there was
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collaboration between the family, so the parents
and Rebecca as well.
Q. Just to clarify, when you
referred to PNOK in terms of benefits, do you
include in that authority over funeral planning?
A. Yes.
Q. And again to clarify, you
mentioned that the PEN form in this case was
present at the meeting, you had it in your
possession, and it designated who?
A. It designated Stuart's
stepfather as the primary next of kin for the
purpose of notification and his mother as the
secondary next of kin.
Q. Okay. And what was the
import of this document on the authority over
funeral planning, if any?
A. In my mind the PEN form, so
the emergency notification form, has no influence
over funeral planning.
Q. I would like to take you to
the funeral and the reception.
A. M'hm.
Q. Can you tell us how it went?
A. You know, how do you say it
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went well? Under the circumstances, which were
very difficult, challenging and fragile, I thought
the day went well. It was a respectful military
funeral to honour Stuart's service. There was
representation from Stuart's peers, from the chain
of command, the senior serving Strathcona
major-general came out to personally pay his
respects to the soldier and to the family as well.
Following the funeral there was a
reception. Our unit funded that reception in unit
lines. Both Stuart's parents and Rebecca had
attended that reception and it was overall, I'd
say, a subdued, respectful affair.
Q. There is an allegation that
the Fynes did not have a proper place within the
funeral and the reception. What would be your take
on this?
A. That certainly was not my
interpretation of the funeral. There was a place
that was designated for Stuart's family, including
his parents. At the reception -- it was an
informal reception -- we held it in a common area.
We essentially went for a stand-up type affair with
food and refreshments that soldiers could mingle.
I recall the Fynes being amongst
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the soldiers. I didn't speak to Mrs. Fynes for an
extended period. I did speak to Stuart's father at
the reception. There were soldiers around him and
I felt that they were integrated into the
reception.
Had the family communicated that
they wanted a place to sit, clearly we would have
designated a place for them to sit to relax on
their own.
I'll go back to the Hayakaze
funeral. His family did designate that they wanted
a place offset, away from the soldiers, where they
could be amongst Michael Hayakaze's peers but not
necessarily get involved with them, and we
respected that request, and clearly we would for
anybody. It takes 10 seconds to set up a table and
chairs.
Q. And what about the seating at
the funeral itself?
A. It's military protocol that
family are seated in one area and military mourners
in another. Based on my recollection, we respected
that military tradition, and that included Stuart's
parents.
Q. Okay. And what did you
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observe about the relationship between Ms.
Hamilton-Tree and the Fynes on that day?
A. This would be my perception.
I did not -- never once did I hear Sheila Fynes or
Mr. Fynes speak ill or poorly of Rebecca, or vice
versa, so I had never seen a direct exchange of
communication that would suggest that there was
animosity between both sides. I do remember seeing
what I would perceive to be negative body language
from Mr. Fynes. I think he saw -- I was standing
next to him; I had just finished talking to him. I
recall Rebecca speaking to some of Stuart's friends
and she was laughing at a joke that one of the
soldiers had told. I can remember Mr. Fynes
shaking his head in what I believed to be -- and I
could be wrong -- but my perception was that he
wasn't happy to see her jovial at this solemn
occasion. That was my first indication that there
was potential friction between the Fynes and
Rebecca Hamilton-Tree.
Q. Did you personally find Ms.
Hamilton-Tree jovial?
A. No, I didn't. I've been to
many, many funerals in my life and certainly my
military career, and I find people handle death in
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different ways. I've seen people completely
overwhelmed with grief and sobbing uncontrollably
and I've seen people laughing and joking. That's
the way -- people deal with these very tough things
in a different way.
So I wasn't judgmental about what
I saw. I did see her laugh at that particular
occasion, but I did see her shedding tears at the
funeral as well, so I thought overall she presented
herself in a fairly balanced way. I didn't pick up
anything that struck me as abnormal.
Q. Okay. There were, in
Corporal Langridge's case, with regards to the
post-death administration, some documents that
emerged after this casualty meeting. Are you aware
of this and, if so, what are you aware of?
A. I'm aware that Master
Corporal Fitzpatrick, who was what we refer to as
the stables NCO, he was essentially the regimental
sergeant-major's right-hand man in looking after
the operation of the building or the infrastructure
itself. So Master Corporal Fitzpatrick had found
some incomplete documents that had been initiated
by Stuart Langridge and he turned those over to the
regimental adjutant immediately on discovering
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them, who in turn informed the chain of command and
sent those to Ottawa for consideration and
processing.
Q. Do you know what these
documents were?
A. I think there was another
will, I believe another PEN form and a
supplementary death benefits form. And, if I
remember correctly, I think only one of those
documents was completed properly, meaning that it
was signed and dated, and I think it was the will,
if I recall correctly.
Q. Okay. Do you remember what
was -- I mean, there was a declaration by Master
Corporal Fitzpatrick in the documents, I believe.
I'll find it.
It's Tab 48. This is a
declaration that states, as you just stated, that
he found the documents, and it states that he found
them on the 20th of March 2008, and I believe the
funeral was held on the 26th of March. Are you
aware what was done regarding this? When were you
made aware of this find?
A. It would have been
immediately after Master Corporal Fitzpatrick
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discovered the documents. He didn't report to me;
he reported to the adjutant, and I'll be honest to
say that this would be one of those "holy crap"
moments where we have found documents that weren't
present when we had our initial discussions on
designation of next of kin for the purpose of
benefits, so we wanted to make sure that they were
put into play immediately and considered as to
whether or not they were relevant and extant.
Q. So did you have a role, given
that you were the one who chaired the casualty
coordination meeting that involved documents that
you had at the time, and these documents were found
on the 20th, what role did you have in this regard?
A. At that particular point, no
specific role to these documents other than to know
that the adjutant was going to immediately put them
into play with administrative authorities in Ottawa
so that they could be considered. And then I would
say my role was more relegated to maintaining
situational awareness of what they said. And my
understanding, based on -- and I didn't review them
physically at the time -- my understanding of how
they were interpreted by the adjutant and the chief
clerk was that they weren't dated or signed and
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therefore hadn't changed the initial documents that
we received, but nonetheless they were still
submitted to administrative authorities in the
interests of transparency and to make sure that
they were factored in.
Q. Okay. When you're talking
about situational awareness, so this is the 20th,
you said you would have been notified immediately.
I believe Major Lubiniecki testified that he was
informed on the 21st. So were you aware, did you
keep track of the situation between the 21st and
the 26th, which was the day of the funeral?
A. Sorry; did I keep track of
the physical location of these documents?
Q. No. On the return of the
value -- on the value of these documents, the
response from Ottawa where they were sent.
A. I personally did not get the
response from Ottawa so I wasn't tracking on a
moment-by-moment basis what the decision was with
regards to these documents from the administrative
authority in Ottawa, no.
Q. Do you know whether the
response was obtained by the time the funeral was
held?
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A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. Thank you very much
Lieutenant Corporal. Those are my questions.
A. Thank you, ma'am.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Q. Good afternoon,
Lieutenant-Colonel.
A. Good afternoon, sir.
Q. I'm going to go through a
number of documents which I want to explore with
you, so turn your attention to the first one at Tab
53, please. Tell me when you're there.
A. I'm there, sir.
Q. Tab 53?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It's a document which is
drawn from the military police report. Have you
got any knowledge at all as to why there would be
black lines across the two pages of this document?
A. I don't, sir. That's
obviously redacted text. I have no idea what it
says.
Q. Would you have seen the
original?
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A. Sorry, sir?
Q. Would you have seen the
original?
A. No, sir.
Q. Go to Tab 55, please.
A. Yes, sir, I'm there.
Q. At the top the subject line I
have, "MPCC Public Interest Hearing 2011-004 Fynes
request R20," and this is an email from you,
correct?
A. Yes, it is, sir.
Q. What does "request R20" mean?
A. I have no idea.
MS. CERNACEK: I can respond to
that. It is a disclosure request that was made by
commission counsel.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Okay.
BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Q. Would you go to Tab 56,
please.
A. I'm there, sir.
Q. Just confirm to me where this
document was found.
A. Ma'am, you're going to have
to answer that because I have no idea where this
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document was found.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Did we not
establish -- I'm just asking -- establish that this
document was found or prepared or submitted during
the PLQ course?
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it's
pretty clear where the document was found. I think
the previous witness testified to that.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Okay. So
it's on a course?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the
previous witness testified that the documents were
found in a package as a result of him learning, on
Corporal Langridge being on the PLQ course, if I
have the right terms there, and then that was one
of the documents and it was submitted along with
the others. It was kept as a package, and then
after five years it would be destroyed if it was no
longer required.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I wasn't
quite sure.
A. Sir, could I add one thing to
this? This morning when I was asked about it, I
conveyed confusion about. The reason being is that
personal emergency notification forms are filled
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out every time you go on a course, so I can speak
to my own experiences. I've filled over 20 of
these documents out for my personal situation, so I
would not be able to put in the context of time
where this document showed up without being
informed.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just on that
document, I can completely understand what the
document is used for in terms of being on the
course. If there's any problem with it, it's
probably that they used the same document as they
would for the next of kin. If they used a
different style document, it would probably never
be an issue.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I don't have
a problem with the fact it's being used on the
course. I think it makes sense. I just want to
make sure that's the document.
BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Q. During the testimony you say,
and I'm quoting you, "The best way to get to a
soldier's trust is to establish some form of
rapport with him." Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said you approached
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him, Stuart that is, on a compassionate basis and
it was more Stuart to Trevor type of discussions
you had, kind of heart-to-heart talks, not between
commissioned officer and a junior, but you really
wanted to get to the bottom of what was troubling
him, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you establish that
trust with him?
A. I believe we had established
trust, but at times my relationship with Stuart was
hard for me to interpret as well. There were times
that I know that Stuart would lie to me, for
example, with regards to his drug use, and I can
understand that. I can look back on it. I didn't
take offence to it. I don't think he was being
disrespectful to the chain of command. He had an
addictions problem and some severe mental health
issues, so although I felt I had established a
rapport with him, I acknowledge, sir, that it
wasn't unconditional.
Q. Could he come to you, not
within the chain of command, but come to you for
advice or support or whatever?
A. He could, sir. It angers my
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staff to this day; I have an open-door policy with
my soldiers. I don't care if a corporal shows up
at the commanding officer's door, I'll make time
for him and I'll have a chat with him, and Stuart
Langridge was no exception to that.
Q. And did he do that?
A. He never came up to my
office, the second in command's office, but he
certainly had no issues engaging me in conversation
when I would walk by him on a routine basis in the
unit line, sir.
Q. So he felt comfortable with
you and you felt comfortable with him having this
kind of exchange?
A. That was my perception, sir,
yes.
Q. You said you spoke to Stuart
soon after his failure of the test, and that's a
urine test to detect if he had any illicit
substance in him, and you're aware that he had
asked that the test results be retested, correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. And you testified, I believe,
that such a test did take place -- retest?
A. My understanding was that the
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adjutant had gone back to seek a retest of the
sample. I'm not familiar with the outcome of that
or when that was communicated, sir.
Q. So you don't know if it
actually took place or not?
A. No, sir.
Q. In part of your testimony you
mentioned -- in fact you did so a couple of times
-- and you expressed your sorrow when you've lost a
soldier, and the words that you use throughout your
testimony was he was part of family. So you looked
to the unit, to the regiment, as a family, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you agree with me that
as a commanding officer you would be the pater
familias, you would be the head of the particular
family, and your compassion and your leadership and
your style and your availability and so on in fact
could be key as to how you're perceived by members
of the family?
A. It's possible. I think
another theme that I've tried to reinforce today,
sir, is that everybody is different. And just as
that applies with soldiers that are going through
problems, the same applies to military leaders.
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Some are more dynamic than others, some are quietly
confident, they like to sit back and control things
with a little bit of standoff. So some commanding
officers like to get engaged and spend more time on
the floor and others do not.
If you're asking, or if the next
question is my thoughts on Colonel Demers, I
thought that he had a very good relationship with
the soldiers of the Strathconas as well, sir.
Q. How different would be his
style from yours? More touchy-touchy, more
distance?
A. More touchy-touchy, I think.
But Pascal Demers, first of all, is highly
professionally competent; everybody knows that. I
have met very few combat leaders who can maintain
the same sense of calm as he can, and he was
universally respected as being a compassionate
leader. And I can say that I've turned to Pascal
Demers over the years, number one as a mentor, but
also as somebody that's informed my own personal
leadership style, sir.
Q. And how was your
relationship, as the second in command, with the
commanding officer?
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A. It was very close.
Q. Very close. So you confided
in one another on an ongoing basis?
A. We did.
Q. To the question how
exceptional such an event, that is an attempted
suicide, was, your response was "unfortunately
frequent." You've quoted in fact over the past few
years you've dealt with seven attempts. Am I
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you learned from any of
these? Do they get any easier? Do you get more
efficient in how you respond to it as the yardstick
moves since June 2007 to five years from now, or
after?
A. I think -- and this would
include Stuart's case -- that the military
leadership, and I think our medical community as
well, have a much more acute sense of mental
illness. What I will say, though, is we have a
long way to go. These are very complex and
difficult issues; that's another thing that I've
learned. And I've also learned that you can look
after a soldier up to a point and mobilize all the
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resources available to you, and sometimes that's
just not enough. The soldier himself or herself
has a role to play in all this, and sometimes they
make decisions that preclude us from being able to
help them out.
Q. Here's my next question: You
as a commanding officer cannot be ubiquitous and be
everywhere at once --
A. Right, sir.
Q. -- so your values and your
expectation how people suffering from mental
disease, including PTSD, are handled by the
camaraderie, comrades in arms, has to flow from
your direction, your style, your values; agreed?
A. I think you're right, sir,
but it has to flow in all directions. So it's not
enough to have a compassionate commanding officer
that just says to everybody, listen, mental health
issues are okay and we need to get over the stigma
and work through this together. You have to create
an environment. You need to have a culture that
transcends rank where privates or troopers on the
shop floor realize that it's okay to have a buddy
that's wounded mentally as it is to have a buddy
wounded with a broken leg.
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So, yes, it's important that the
leaders of the unit take a role in that, but it
goes much more beyond that, sir.
Q. In 2008 you were in as a
second in command. Would there have been,
according to your own evaluation, a cleaving of
some sort as to how individuals suffering from
mental disease and/or PTSD would be looked at by
say non-commissioned members, particularly senior
NCOs, versus the officers?
A. Was there a stigma, in other
words, where a soldier with mental health injuries
was looked at differently? I think in the military
or in the civilian world one of the greatest
challenges dealing with mental health injuries is
that at times there is a stigma, but what I will
say, and I can say this categorically, was that
there was not universal rejection that Stuart
Langridge's condition was anything but valid and
credible and that folks didn't understand and
appreciate how serious his condition was.
So were there individuals at the
Strathconas in 2007-08 that may have thought that
Stuart Langridge wasn't suffering from mental
health illness? Potentially, sir, but I don't
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think that was a prevailing attitude or culture at
our unit.
Q. So not a prevailing, or not
an absolute rejection, but you would agree also not
an absolute acceptance by everybody?
A. No, but what I respectfully
offer, sir, is that in cases of suicide, this is
another thing I've learned over the years, that
even the family members -- I'm not talking about
Stuart Langridge's members -- but I've seen where
in other cases a soldier attempts suicide, people
that share the same blood as that individual have a
very hard time understanding it, get very angry at
the individual, and sometimes reject them. So,
yes, I've seen that in the military ranks, sir, but
I've also seen that amongst family members as well.
Q. Colonel, can you turn to Tab
17, please.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If I look at paragraph 2, and
my friend in her examination-in-chief has gone
through, I'm not going to do all of that, but one
thing that strikes me in this report, although
prepared by the adjutant, signed by you -- you said
you endorsed that, you put your signature to it --
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all of the events which at the time, in August
2007, that you, after having done a thorough review
of this document and your knowledge of Stuart and
so on, you put all of the events which could be
considered as special or considered as the things
that made him overwhelm, all of them reach back to
and stop at his deployment to Afghanistan in
2004-06; correct?
A. No, sir. What do you mean
"they all reach back to," sir?
Q. Well, the first issue is his
deployment Op Athena in 2004-05 and then the death
of his father in 2006 and so on. There's nothing
before 2004, is there?
A. Not that I was aware of, sir,
and certainly not that I communicated here.
Q. There's nothing about
childhood here, nothing in his teens or nothing
that you would have known for his prior service,
because he did go to Bosnia before that. So none
of those were identified as that time by you or the
board of inquiry that took place as something that
could reach back in time?
A. Not that I was tracking, sir.
Q. You mention, and you're not
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the only one who mentioned that, that the LdSH is a
very tightly knit unit. I've heard that before in
my own military service way back then. So I guess
things haven't changed. I guess you're kind of
proud of that. It's part of your regimental state
and regimental tradition that people help one
another, people confide in one another and,
regardless of ranks, you're a bed of brothers?
A. Yes, sir, but although I
certainly do take pride in the Strathconas
promoting that sense of family, or unit, I think
there are other units out there where camaraderie
is extremely important.
Q. But would you agree that,
given this tightness, it is not unusual, in fact
it's a by-product of being very, very close as
family, that you would exchange information you
would keep, you would want to inform yourself about
the health or aspiration, motivation, careers,
whatever it is, of your fellow officers or
regimental members and so on, and there would be
quite a bit of -- I wouldn't say rumours, but quite
a bit of passage of information, some of it
sensitive, some of it personal, that would take
place within the LdSH?
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A. Sir, as you communicated, you
were a uniformed officer in the Canadian army. In
any Canadian army unit the ranks are between 500
and 700 soldiers. Even in a garrison environment
those soldiers work in close quarters on a daily
basis. So to use your specific example, Stuart
Langridge's attempted suicide, two Strathcona
soldiers find him before he completes the suicide.
Would that information get around quickly?
Absolutely. It will get around quickly in any
Canadian army unit, sir.
Q. I couldn't agree more with
you.
Would anybody have taken Corporal
Hillier and Corporal Rohmer aside and say, watch
your Qs and As and be careful and don't spread the
message? Has anybody said that to them as far as
you know?
A. I don't know if anybody did,
sir. It's possible that somebody did. I did not.
Q. And you're not aware that
anybody did?
A. Not that I'm aware of, sir.
Q. Did it come to your
attention, your knowledge at any time, that Stuart
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wanted to take his release?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or want to be released?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had he wanted to, could he
have?
A. Absolutely, sir.
Q. In months?
A. Stuart could have taken a
voluntary release within 30 days of notifying the
chain of command as long as it was supported by the
career administrative authority. I never -- mind
you, this is Trevor Cadieu's policy -- if a soldier
wants to leave the Canadian military in 30 days or
six months, it's their decision, but I hadn't heard
that Stuart Langridge had requested a release, sir.
Q. And your policy as a current
commanding officer would be you would support --
A. I would support it, sir.
Q. You would expect it to be
granted?
A. Not always. I recommend
releases sometimes that are denied by the
administrative authority in Ottawa. I think one of
the things that I'd also be sensitive to if I was
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to look at this in the context of Stuart
Langridge's case is that if he was requesting a
30-day release, one of the things that admittedly
I'd be nervous about is what is the mental health
of this soldier as he releases from the Canadian
army. So if he has addictions problems that
haven't been fully addressed, is getting out within
30 days a good idea?
This is hypothetical right now
because I didn't have that dialogue or exchange
with Stuart Langridge, but it is something that I'd
be sensitive to.
Q. Based on your experience both
as a 2IC of a unit, a major unit, and commanding
officer now, it is not exceptional -- that's your
testimony -- that somebody could ask for a release
and receive same within 30 days?
A. No, it's not exceptional. It
happens often.
Q. And that would happen even if
somebody has an indeterminate term of services
required for him to serve the next 25 years?
A. That's right, sir.
Q. Then I've got to ask you the
question: Why do we have a contract? Why do we
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have terms of service if we can get released within
30 days?
A. There are implications to
benefits. So, for example, I'm currently serving
on a contract that takes me out to 25 years. If I
get tired of serving in the military or I see an
opportunity external to the military that I want to
take advantage of, I could get out within 30 days
as of today. However, there's a penalty to that.
I would be taken back to 20 years of service in the
calculation of my pension and benefits. So those
hard years that I've worked above and beyond 20
years would be reset and I would lose some benefits
as a result.
Q. Well, the point of saying it,
and I can take comfort from what you're saying,
that you as a Canadian volunteer put a uniform on
and can be put in harm's way, but if on the day you
decide, for whatever reason, that you've had enough
and you want to take your release, you can do so on
30 days' notice?
A. I won't argue with you on
that one, sir. It's policy and we respect it so --
Q. And that's your understanding
of it?
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A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thanks.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the
other answer to that is that it's not in every
case. Some will be denied.
BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Q. Correct, but the rule is you
can do this, and there would be some occasions
where you may not?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. Okay. On the issue of
measures -- I know you want to call it something
else, but I'm so familiar, so comfortable with the
term "measures" -- that were governing Stuart's
last day in the garrison, you make the point that,
and I think you said he was voluntarily subject to
these measures, and you believe that?
A. I do believe that, sir.
Q. Did he have a choice, really,
if we look at that, given your rank, given the fact
that a base surgeon initiated those, a very
powerful, I would say, diseminarian, some of them
autocratic, adjutant, and yourself as a unit body,
did he truly, truly have a close to say, no, I
don't want that? And if he did -- two questions at
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once -- what were his options?
A. Sir, I respectfully would
pose the same question to you. When I look at the
measures that we had discussed with Stuart
Langridge, if he said to us, listen, I appreciate
what you're trying to do, but I'm fine, you can
leave me alone, I'm not going to do this; when I
look at it, I would have no administrative or
disciplinary recourse, so I couldn't take any
action against him.
Now, the other question that you
asked, sir, was, okay, well fine, he's talking to a
regimental second in command, regimental
sergeant-major, would he not be intimidated into
accepting the conditions that you're imposing?
Perhaps some soldiers were, but certainly my
relationship and my perception of how Stuart
Langridge would respond to that is that this was a
soldier that was not afraid of power. He had no
issues speaking to authorities. We had a very
relaxed and congenial relationship, but that said,
as well, sir, I also know, having experience, that
Stuart would lie from time to time, given his
addiction problems, in order to manipulate the
system, that if he wanted out of those conditions
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he would have found a way to communicate that.
So I'm telling you honestly and
sincerely, my interpretation was that Stuart
Langridge had no issues with the measures that were
put in place, and if he said no, I wouldn't have
any recourse on it.
Q. Had he not accepted those or
had he refused to abide by them, was a compulsory
release in the offing?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was he given independent
advice or given an assisting officer to assist him
in making that decision, or was that required?
A. In this case I didn't think
it was required. In fact, I'll be honest and say I
never considered that, but right here on the spot I
don't think it would be. It was a conversation.
It was, Stuart, you understand that we feel that
you're not well right now and we want to put a
safety net in place to help you out. Is that
acceptable to you? And his answer was yes. I
don't think a responsible adult soldier needs an
assisting officer to help him through that process,
respectfully, sir.
Q. Okay, thanks.
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I bring your attention to Tab 37,
please, the last line of the second-last paragraph:
"I hope they don't fight about the plan."
I found that a strange comment in
the email. Tell me, had Colonel Demers, at that
time, that particular email, already been in touch
with Rebecca and notifying her of the passing?
A. I'm not sure at that
particular point in time, sir. When I look at this
--
Q. 1023?
A. I understand the date-time on
it, sir, but my interpretation of that line is he
hopes that there's no friction between the member=s spouse and the family members. I frankly would
have hoped the same thing.
Q. Was it done in a generic
sense; in other words, given those circumstances --
A. That's what I felt, sir.
You'd have to ask Pascal Demers.
Q. If you go to Tab 43, that's
my second area that I'm a little bit puzzled on.
In the second email, it's from you to Colonel
Demers and a couple of others, it says, "It may
also be a good use of the family fund." What is
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that?
A. Sir, one of the things that
makes the Strathconas unique -- you communicated
that we take great pride in having a regimental
family -- well, one of the ways that we can
reinforce those bonds amongst our regimental family
is through what we call the Strathcona Society.
It's a not-for-profit organization that's
established external to the chain of command in the
unit that's governed by retired officers and senior
NCOs that generates revenue to look after the needs
of soldiers and their families when the department
cannot do that.
So we leveraged, for example, our
society funds to pay for Stuart's reception
following the funeral. The department doesn't
cover the cost of food and refreshments at those
sorts of things. Our society paid for that. So
internal to that society fund, sir, we have what is
called deployed and family support fund that in
times of need for soldiers and their loved ones, if
we need to mobilize those resources to go above and
beyond what we're resourced to do in the
department, we have the capability of doing that.
Q. To fill the gaps so to speak.
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Yes, sir.
MS. CERNACEK: I'm very sorry to
interrupt. Could I ask for a very quick health
break?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure. We'll
take five minutes.
--- Upon recessing at 4:31 p.m.
--- Upon resuming at 4:38 p.m.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Thank you.
BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Q. In the later part of your
testimony you noted that you provided advice to
your commanding officer that Rebecca was the
primary next of kin.
A. I don't recall specifically
communicating that to him, sir, but I'll take
responsibility for saying that I can recall, based
on my interpretation of everything I had seen, I
felt at the time, and I still do, that Rebecca was
the primary next of kin.
Q. And you said that you got
that on the advice of the JAG, that the JAG in fact
advised you. Did I understand that properly?
A. No, sir, I didn't say that.
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It was based on feedback from stakeholders in the
room and our interpretation of documents, but that
was a decision for the commanding officer to make
based on the advice of the staff.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't believe
the word "JAG" was ever used in testimony.
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I thought it
was. Those are all my questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
Colonel and thank you Colonel Drapeau.
Counsel?
MS. McLAINE: I do not have any
questions. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Lieutenant-Colonel, I want to put to bed this issue
of the PEN notification. It's fairly clear that
that document would not ever be sent to a personnel
file; it was only used for the purpose of
notification should there be a problem while on a
course; is that not accurate?
A. Yes, sir. So that PEN form,
the one you're referring to at the back of the
book, it is the same as a form that you might find
on a member's personnel file, but just as we need
to have a document like that to know who to contact
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in a garrison environment or deployed on operations
in the event of death and serious injury, we do the
same thing for training courses because of the risk
of death and serious injury.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you could
take it back as a note to somebody to change the
design of the form so that -- I'm aware that in
other circumstances they are a different style of
form so it's never confused with a personnel form.
A. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I can see where
that can cause huge issues. What if that form does
get transferred over to a personnel file and it was
never intended to be in a personnel file, it was
only for that? So I can see where that could be a
very confusing document.
A. Yes, sir. From a
notification perspective, yes, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: It could cause
real problems, and I think you've seen it has
caused some here. It's beyond my scope in terms of
-- we're not dealing with CF, but you can take that
for what it's worth.
A. Yes, sir. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any
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re-examination?
MS. CERNACEK: No follow-up
questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to thank
you, Lieutenant-Colonel, for your testimony today.
You obviously have a passionate belief in the
Strathconas, as do many other regiments in the
country, as you point out. But our congratulations
on your upcoming promotion in June and your
eventual welcome to Ottawa, for whatever period of
time that will be.
A. Thank you very much, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well done, thank
you, and thank you for your service. You've
obviously had at least two tours to Afghanistan?
A. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other tours?
A. A tour to Bosnia, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Congratulations
for your service.
A. Thank you, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: That ends today,
unless there's any administrative business.
MS. CERNACEK: Not to my
knowledge.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then we
resume tomorrow at 9:30. We have just one witness
tomorrow?
MS. CERNACEK: That's right.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
--- Whereupon adjourning at 4:45 p.m.
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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best of
my skills and abilities, accurately recorded
by shorthand, and transcribed therefrom,
the foregoing proceeding.
_______________________________
Amy Harkness, Court Reporter
and
I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best
of my skill and ability, accurately recorded
by Shorthand and transcribed therefrom, the
foregoing proceeding.
Lillian Purdy, CSR
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