Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen - Clear Light - Buddhist Discussion - The Tao Bums.pdf

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Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen - Clear LightStarted by Tibetan_Ice, Feb 27 2013 09:39 PM

clear lightclear light,,

Tibetan_Ice

Hi Konchog,

Yes, I will take you up on that discussion about clear light.

Quote

Thanks TI,

in the interest of not derailing the thread, i suggest we start another one to talk more about it.

unless we're done talking, in which case, i can only reiterate that i don't personally have a lot of familiarity with clear light. I am

not even sure i understand it. I am encouraged to study deeper into the matter by this exchange tho, so thanks.

You see, even though you were underwhelmed with rest of the book, I kept reading it and I'm in love with this

book now.

The concepts in this book resonate very deeply with the rest of what I've been learning and experiencing. As you

sit, with neither grasping nor averting, letting be, making no effort to 'do' anything but watch, and not become

attached to what you see or think about it, the veils drop away, everything you see becomes brighter and brighter

until it just radiates. As you progress, you see the light, brighter than anything. That is the manifestation of the

child clear light or child rigpa (according to this book). It manifests into several different spectacles. But if you

grasp at them, if you think about them, they dull out. This is training is watching and not thinking about what you

are seeing.

Then, once you are well established in child clear light, it breaks through and joins mother clear, mother rigpa,

enlightenment.

That book mentions the five lights of primordial wisdom, the five elements, the Bon teachings. How the clear

light manifests into the five lights, and depending on how they are percieved, they are either the five primordial

wisdoms or the five manifestations of samsara.

The theme that samsara and nirvana are just two sides of the same coin is also present in this book. And, you

also find the disregard of ethics, or good and bad, and other forms of dualistic grasping.

I don't think you read the book. I think you abandoned it after a while and didn't finish it. For, if you had, I think

you would have understood what clear light is. The fourth Vajra verse describes it so wonderfully, I don't see how

anyone could have missed it, or not understood it.

And, I was also quite suprised when the book mentioned that breath meditation is an opportunity to buddhahood:

Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:39 PM

Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen - Clear Ligh... http://thetaobums.com/topic/27308-natural-perfection-longchen...

1 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

Quote

More specifically, regarding “the contemplation of riding the breath,” without making any deliberate effort, in the gap between

the ending of exhalation and the beginning of the next inhalation when the breath is still, internal clarity is freed from subtle

vital energy and in the consequent absence of mental propensity the inner clarity of pure being arises as sky-like contemplation.

Through that recognition of the nature of mind, buddhahood is attained in the very moment in immanent transparence.

Rabjam, Longchen (2012-06-25). Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 5899-5903). Perseus

Books Group. Kindle Edition.

Notice, he says "without deliberate effort". Breath meditation is a way to practice "neither grasping nor averting,

resting in the natural state".

But, on the topic of clear light. Clear light is the source of samsara and nirvana. It is that which is inextricably

mixed into the dharmakaya. It's brilliance and shine reveals itself the more you still the mind, let go, neither grasp

nor avert.. The book calls it non-meditation..

This has been my experience. As I progress in watching the breath, I'm getting better at not consciously

controlling the breathing. As I progress, the thoughts and images appear crystal clear and very luminous, bright,

shiny and radiant. Vivid. When the reflection of the child clear light manifests, it is very bright.. I haven't broken

through to mother clear light yet, but when I do I will let you know.

Here are some quotes from that book about the clear light. There is no need for discussion. I'm just presenting

something that I love:

Quote

54. ASSIMILATING THE UNCONFINED SIX SENSORY FIELDS LEFT LOOSELY In the vast super-matrix of rigpa that is

brilliant emptiness, no matter what evanescent particularity shows itself, the direct sensory perception of rigpa illuminates its

reality and the image unconfined, cognition is pure pleasure; the six sensory fields relaxed in the pristine-awareness matrix,

clear light, unobstructed, without outside or inside, in artless super-relaxation—spontaneity!

Within the brilliant emptiness of rigpa, as we rest openly in supremely uninvolved natural clarity, the inherent brilliance of

external appearances is unconfined and the senses hanging loose and free, since there is nothing to hang on to, the objects in the

field of appearances are not fixated. In the vast existential silence of unmade seamless clear light, uninterrupted radiance in the

matrix that allows no beginnings, appearances are like reflections in a pellucid lake.

...

In this final dissolution, or disappearance, even the body of light dissolves, and even those who have not realized the celestial

fortress in this lifetime, although knowing the reflexive release of positive and negative projection in the moment, are released

into the ground of being. This is the moment of climax of the yoga of Cutting Through. The child clear light merges with the

mother clear light. The samsaric illusion of corporeality dissolves and the buddha-fields of nirvana arisen in the bardo of reality

(chonyi bardo) likewise revert to their source. There is no further emanation and of course, no rebirth. “Death” is reversion to

rigpa as the source.

...

The three dimensions of rigpa are the clear light of emptiness:

nothing eternal, without substance,

nothing ephemeral, the buddha-body is clear light;

undifferentiated, without inside or outside,

the buddha-body is translucent empty space;

indivisible emptiness and appearance, utterly intangible,

the buddha-body is birthless, deathless, and immutable.

Buddha-speech is actually unoriginated,

unarticulated, free of meaning, beyond all words and expression.

Buddha-mind is the sky-like purity of rigpa,

without mentality, mind, and intelligence—

no feeling, so no sensation,

no ideation, so no sense of self,

no karmic impulse, so no incarnation,

no consciousness, so no delusion,

no five sensory fields, so no grasping,

no desire, so no attachment,


2 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

no virtue or vice, so no maturation,

and no self-identity, so no egoism.

With the five doors of pristine awareness wide open,

the nature of everything is the same buddhahood,

body, speech, and mind without defilement,

and there is no view, no meditation, no conduct,

no paths to traverse, no levels to climb.

...

In the vast super-matrix of rigpa that is brilliant emptiness, no matter what evanescent particularity shows itself, the direct

sensory perception of rigpa illuminates its reality and the image unconfined, cognition is pure pleasure; the six sensory fields

relaxed in the pristine-awareness matrix, clear light, unobstructed, without outside or inside, in artless super-relaxation

—spontaneity! With the carefree mind of an idler, neither tight nor slack, we rest easy; here rigpa is infinitely open, like a

crystal-clear sky, and we linger gratefully in spaciousness without anticipation. With spacious intuition of the brilliant emptiness

of reality, unconfined rigpa is a seamless infinite openness, and free of belief, all ideation dissolving, all things converge in the

matrix of the dynamic of rigpa. The blissful ground and a happy mind blended, inside and outside is the one taste of pure mind:

this is the vision of reality as the consummate way of being. At the moment of engaging with a sensory object, the mind is opened

to infinite, blissful vision, and free of belief, as its luminous expression, its natural clarity, it is assimilated to super seamless

openness.

...

Rabjam, Longchen (2012-06-25). Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 875-899). Perseus

Books Group. Kindle Edition.

So, I don't know what you need in order to think that this is a great book. Although there is the

odd non-conventional term, like "absence" and lots of big words, this book is right on.

TI

konchog uma

hi TI,

remember that its okay to have a different impression of a book than someone else. I am glad to hear that you like

it so much.

i have read about clear light in a bunch of places.. the union of luminosity and emptiness, the subtle manifestation

underlying all reality, and so on and so forth

what i don't have is direct experience of clear light, unimpeded by other aspects of reality. Maybe in the bardo,

but i didn't recognize it as such at that time. i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with

seeing visions of light,

At any rate, i didn't say it was a bad book. I said i liked the introduction better than the translation and

commentary. Thats just me expressing how it struck me.. as in, good thing we aren't all the same! lol i never said

that the book wasn't good.

anyway, i don't have a lot to add, although i have been practicing the beginning stages of sleep and dream yoga,

with small but good results, but dont want to talk about that much.. inner yogas and dzogchen are traditionally

private, so even when i do achieve results, i think that they are just for me. I prefer to keep my practice sealed in

the traditional way. Even when i talk privately with people about my experiences i feel really weird about it

afterwards. I think its best for me just to talk to my lama and other meditation teachers about things like that.

But i digress

If i achieve insight into clear light in a general way, i will be happy to share for the benefit of others. Til then, the

words are just words to me (alas! lol)...

Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:59 AM


3 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

Edited by konchog uma, 28 February 2013 - 07:04 AM.

r v

TI,

Do you have a teacher? Or, are you self-taught/discovering?

Thanks,

RV


Jetsun

I have read a bunch of Dzogchen books and tried to practice from them because theoretically Dzogchen makes so

much sense to me, but without the pointing out instructions by a qualified Lama I never really knew if what I was

doing was correct or if I was just wasting my time. I did enjoy reading the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa

though which is one of the most bizarre spiritual books I have ever read, which involves him fighting with demons

by grabbing them by the ankles and spinning them around and other strange tales, but he received his entire

Buddhist training in dreams and visions so reading that really gives you motivation to try to work with your own

dreams and visions because if he can get teachings in dream time why not you?


stefos

Jetsun, on 28 Feb 2013 - 10:03, said:

I have read a bunch of Dzogchen books and tried to practice from them because theoretically Dzogchen makes so much sense to

me, but without the pointing out instructions by a qualified Lama I never really knew if what I was doing was correct or if I was

just wasting my time. I did enjoy reading the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa though which is one of the most

bizarre spiritual books I have ever read, which involves him fighting with demons by grabbing them by the

ankles and spinning them around and other strange tales, but he received his entire Buddhist training in

dreams and visions so reading that really gives you motivation to try to work with your own dreams and

visions because if he can get teachings in dream time why not you?

Hi,

Dzogchen mentions that one must have what's called "transmission or be introduced to one's own nature"

through a master.

Verbally explaining it won't do it.

It's akin to saying writing a book about ripe, delicious cherries....Great book! no actual food!

Although some people are born with the "inborn understanding" of Dzogchen and the state of Naked Awareness,

most of us were not....lol

Jiddhu Krishnamurti talked a LOT about Choiceless Awareness which is what Dzogchen calls "Naked

Awareness." Krishnamurti said that one could be Choicelessly Aware unknowingly but did need a teacher....he

himself taught on & about Choiceless Awareness quite a lot.

Choiceless Awareness corresponds to the Semde or "Mind series" teachings in Dzogchen only and not working

with the subtle energy system or "voice."

Of course, Naked awareness/Bare attention is something EVERYONE can learn but

how one "works" with that is another story, as mentioned above. One inevitably needs a teacher or at least the

verbatim words of a real teacher of these things....no 2 ways about it.

Krishnamurti is the only teacher who taught about such high level things openly, that I'm aware of!

Maybe some Theras understand this Choiceless Awareness or maybe not...I don't know.

Anyway, Check out Krishnamurti's study book called "Choiceless Awareness" & pick up "Self Liberation through

seeing with Naked Awareness" by Snow Lion publications.



4 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

You won't be disappointed.

Regarding teachings through dreams:

One must have "culled" the ability to be aware in the dream itself.

This is a practice taught in Dzogchen circles.

Rudolf Steiner mentions "continuity of consciousness from sleep into the dreaming state."

I think that THIS is something different than Dzogchen teachings but obviously similar.

Finally, One has to have a relationship IN the spirit realm.

"Who would a person communicate to and Why?" are the quintessential questions along with

"Why would a person/entity want to talk with me if they didn't have an agenda? be it selfish or selfless???" is the

other question.

I hope this makes sense sir.

Take care & God bless you!

Stefos

P.S. I view Advaita Vedanta in the same manner as I do Dzogchen...it's all theory without a teacher!

Edited by stefos, 28 February 2013 - 07:21 PM.

Tibetan_Ice

rainbowvein, on 28 Feb 2013 - 08:11, said:

TI,

Do you have a teacher? Or, are you self-taught/discovering?

Thanks,

RV

Hi Rainbowvein

Well, it's a little off topic, but, I have a long history of spiritual practices.. for what it is worth.

http://thetaobums.co...cross/?p=395385 (http://thetaobums.com/topic/26312-some-vedanta-traps-ive-come-

across/?p=395385)

Here I describe an experience of clear light:

http://thetaobums.co...llace/?p=384118 (http://thetaobums.com/topic/25700-introduction-to-dzogchen-retreat-

with-b-alan-wallace/?p=384118)

TI

ps.. Love your name..


Tibetan_Ice

Jetsun, on 28 Feb 2013 - 10:03, said:

I have read a bunch of Dzogchen books and tried to practice from them because theoretically Dzogchen makes so much sense to

me, but without the pointing out instructions by a qualified Lama I never really knew if what I was doing was correct or if I was

just wasting my time. I did enjoy reading the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa though which is one of the most



5 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

bizarre spiritual books I have ever read, which involves him fighting with demons by grabbing them by the

ankles and spinning them around and other strange tales, but he received his entire Buddhist training in

dreams and visions so reading that really gives you motivation to try to work with your own dreams and

visions because if he can get teachings in dream time why not you?

Hi Jetsun,

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, there are many stories about Buddhists performing amazing feats.. I like the one about the Buddhist who

painted a picture of a cow on the wall and then proceeded to milk it, producing real milk. !

Did you ever notice that the advanced Dzogchen preliminary practises like trecko and thogal, which are also

called the Leap-over, or jumping through, or the fastest methods (if one cannot realize the true nature of mind

directly) are very similar to third eye meditations, kriya yoga/pranayama and other 'standard' hindu practices?

TI

Tibetan_Ice

stefos, on 28 Feb 2013 - 20:08, said:

Hi,

Dzogchen mentions that one must have what's called "transmission or be introduced to one's own nature" through a master.

Verbally explaining it won't do it.

It's akin to saying writing a book about ripe, delicious cherries....Great book! no actual food!

Although some people are born with the "inborn understanding" of Dzogchen and the state of Naked Awareness, most of us were

not....lol

Jiddhu Krishnamurti talked a LOT about Choiceless Awareness which is what Dzogchen calls "Naked Awareness." Krishnamurti

said that one could be Choicelessly Aware unknowingly but did need a teacher....he himself taught on & about Choiceless

Awareness quite a lot.

Choiceless Awareness corresponds to the Semde or "Mind series" teachings in Dzogchen only and not working with the subtle

energy system or "voice."

Of course, Naked awareness/Bare attention is something EVERYONE can learn but

how one "works" with that is another story, as mentioned above. One inevitably needs a teacher or at least the verbatim words of

a real teacher of these things....no 2 ways about it.

Krishnamurti is the only teacher who taught about such high level things openly, that I'm aware of!

Maybe some Theras understand this Choiceless Awareness or maybe not...I don't know.

Anyway, Check out Krishnamurti's study book called "Choiceless Awareness" & pick up "Self Liberation through seeing with

Naked Awareness" by Snow Lion publications.

You won't be disappointed.

Regarding teachings through dreams:

One must have "culled" the ability to be aware in the dream itself.

This is a practice taught in Dzogchen circles.

Rudolf Steiner mentions "continuity of consciousness from sleep into the dreaming state."

I think that THIS is something different than Dzogchen teachings but obviously similar.

Finally, One has to have a relationship IN the spirit realm.

"Who would a person communicate to and Why?" are the quintessential questions along with

"Why would a person/entity want to talk with me if they didn't have an agenda? be it selfish or selfless???" is the other question.

I hope this makes sense sir.

Take care & God bless you!

Stefos

P.S. I view Advaita Vedanta in the same manner as I do Dzogchen...it's all theory without a teacher!



6 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

My God Stefos, you are just all over the place, aren't you?

I did read some J Krishnamurti, and then I read some U G Krishnamurti ( a while ago), just so I didn't confuse the

two..

I wondered who pee-ed in U G's cornflakes..

Instead of giving advice, I would be more interested in hearing about your regular practices (or non-practices) and

experiences.

Thanks for posting the auric sight experience in the occult thread. Although it was an elementary experience, the

important part of it was that by resting your head on your hands and gazing upwards like you did, you tied into

the secret kati channel from the heart to the head. The purple and green lights were part of that heart-

consciousness manifestation.

Here are some books I would recommend:

1 "Ground, Path, And Fruition: Teachings of Tsoknyi Rinpoche on Mind and Mind Essence"

Tsoknyi Rinpoche; Paperback; $49.00

In Stock

Sold by: Vajra Books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/seller/home.html

/ref=ox_oce_seller_home?ie=UTF8&seller=A1717UHBTQXYEF)

1 "Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen"

Rabjam, Longchen; Paperback; $12.21

In Stock

Sold by: Amazon.com LLC (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/seller/home.html

/ref=ox_oce_seller_home?ie=UTF8&seller=ATVPDKIKX0DER) 1 "A Practice Of Padmasambhava:

Essential Instructions On The Path To Awakening"

Gyaltsap, Sechen; Paperback; $15.63

In Stock


/ref=ox_oce_seller_home?ie=UTF8&seller=ATVPDKIKX0DER) 1 "Awakening The Luminous Mind:

Tibetan Meditation for Inner Peace and Joy"

Wangyal Rinpoche, Tenzin; Paperback; $10.17

In Stock


/ref=ox_oce_seller_home?ie=UTF8&seller=ATVPDKIKX0DER) 1 "Awakening the Sacred Body"

Wangyal Rinpoche, Tenzin; Paperback; $13.57

In Stock


/ref=ox_oce_seller_home?ie=UTF8&seller=ATVPDKIKX0DER) 1 "Naked Awareness: Practical

Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen"

Karma Chagme; Paperback; $20.48

In Stock


/ref=ox_oce_seller_home?ie=UTF8&seller=ATVPDKIKX0DER) 1 "A Spacious Path To Freedom:

Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Atiyoga"

Chagme, Karma; Paperback; $14.31

In Stock


/ref=ox_oce_seller_home?ie=UTF8&seller=ATVPDKIKX0DER)

TI


7 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

Tibetan_Ice

konchog uma, on 28 Feb 2013 - 07:59, said:

hi TI,

remember that its okay to have a different impression of a book than someone else. I am glad to hear that you like it so much.

i have read about clear light in a bunch of places.. the union of luminosity and emptiness, the subtle manifestation underlying all

reality, and so on and so forth

what i don't have is direct experience of clear light, unimpeded by other aspects of reality. Maybe in the bardo, but i didn't

recognize it as such at that time. i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light,

At any rate, i didn't say it was a bad book. I said i liked the introduction better than the translation and commentary. Thats just

me expressing how it struck me.. as in, good thing we aren't all the same! lol i never said that the book wasn't good.

anyway, i don't have a lot to add, although i have been practicing the beginning stages of sleep and dream yoga, with small but

good results, but dont want to talk about that much.. inner yogas and dzogchen are traditionally private, so even when i do

achieve results, i think that they are just for me. I prefer to keep my practice sealed in the traditional way. Even when i talk

privately with people about my experiences i feel really weird about it afterwards. I think its best for me just to talk to my lama

and other meditation teachers about things like that. But i digress

If i achieve insight into clear light in a general way, i will be happy to share for the benefit of others. Til then, the words are just

words to me (alas! lol)...

Hi Konchog

If Malcom said " i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light, " then

he is wrong.

Not only does clear light manifest into all things, the dharmakaya and the sambhogakaya are inseperable..

Maybe Malcom is a scholar and a tibetan doctor, but perhaps he isn't a guru or a practitioner..

Where exactly did he say that?

And then answer this question.. why do you think that Guru Yoga starts with the practice of visualizing the Guru

in perfect detail, then visualizing the red/white/blue light emanating from the Guru to you, and then dissolving

the Guru into you?

Why do you think that Max's Kunlun level 1 says to visualize yourself floating in a blue empty sky and then

visualize, as you breathe in... and "make it real"?

The reason is because everything emanates from the clear light. The clear light, when split into yellow, is the

manifestation of solidity. Into red light, is the manifestion of fire.. Blue light, space.. etc.. the five lights.

The reason for the visualizations is to start training in manifesting and dissolving the five lights. How else could

you walk through solids, fly in the air, heat up the body etc? It is by realizing that we are creating the material

plane through the mind, by manifesting the five lights/elements and by learning to play with them.

Quote

THE GREAT PERFECTION In the Bön tradition, the highest teaching is Dzogchen, the Great Perfection or Great Completion.

Dzogchen teaches that the basis of the individual and of all phenomena is inseparable emptiness (tong pa nyid) and luminosity (‘

od sal).

...

Emptiness and luminosity are inseparable. Emptiness is luminous and luminosity is empty. In Dzogchen this fundamental

reality is said to have a capacity or energy (tsal) expressed as the unceasing manifestation of phenomena— the endless arising

and passing away of countless luminous worlds and beings— all essentially empty but existing as a passing play of light.

Phenomena arise as a display of the basis of all (kunzhi), as the non-dual manifestation of empty luminosity.

...

As I stated earlier, Dzogchen teachings say that inseparable emptiness and luminosity is the true nature of all phenomena. In

Dzogchen teachings, this fundamental reality is sometimes symbolized as a single sphere of pure light. It is single because it is



8 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

non-dual. It is not single in opposition to something else. It has no boundaries or divisions, no inside or outside. Though it is

non-dual, the elemental energies ceaselessly manifest in it. This is why it is often painted as a sphere of rainbow light made of

the five elemental colors. Light is used as a symbol because it is the least substantial of all things that we can perceive through

the senses. Also, the nature of mind is radiant and clear, like light. Like the light of a candle, awareness illuminates itself as well

as whatever it touches. In Tibetan teachings, the word nang wa is often translated into English as “vision” or “appearance.” But it

does not refer only to visual phenomena. In this case, “vision” actually means “experience” and includes what is seen through the

physical eyes and the mind’s eye; what is heard, smelled, tasted, touched; what arises in mental experience; and what is

imagined. These are all “visions” because they arise in the light of awareness, the light of pure presence. Although these are only

words, they are close to describing the real experience. Luminosity means the “light” of awareness as well as all phenomena that

arise in awareness, which without exception are also luminous.

The Six Lamps refers to the basis of all as well as five levels of manifest experience. The six divisions are called lamps because

each refers to the same light in one of six different contexts.

The first lamp (gnas-pa gzhi-yi sgron-ma) The first lamp is the luminosity of the abiding base, the primordial non-dual presence.

It is not personal, not individualized, not localized, not dualistic. It is the luminous aspect that, in inseparable unity with

emptiness, is the basis of all experience. If the practitioner recognizes the first lamp— not intellectually but by abiding in innate

non-dual awareness— then the basis of all is known in every experience and condition and in the other five lamps. The point of

the first lamp is to recognize the light of kunzhi.

The second lamp (tsi-ta sha-yi sgron-ma) The second lamp is the “lamp of the flesh heart,” the lamp of the self-arising innate

awareness, rigpa, in the dimension of the individual. It is personal only in the sense that it is the pure awareness underlying the

moving mind and the sense of subjectivity. It is related to the dharmakaya. It is awareness localized as an individual

experiencing. But it is not bound by any constricted identity, although through the delusions of the dualistic mind we have come

to experience it as being bound. Although rigpa is not actually localized, many practitioners can most easily recognize it through

a connection to the heart center. The Six Lamps specifically discusses this in terms of the space inside of the physical heart.

Westerners often find this strange, but it’s similar to what we mean when we say that “in” each being is the nature of mind. The

nature of mind is not individual and not localized. It is truer to say that we exist in the nature of mind than to say the nature of

mind is in us. But in our experience it is easier to recognize the nature of mind if we go “in” to the deepest place in ourselves, the

heart. This is why we say that the rigpa resides in the heart, and why the heart is the center of the life-force prana and why love is

always connected to the heart. Thus we talk about the “light of the heart”. The point of the second lamp is to recognize the light

of innate awareness within.

The third lamp (dkar-’ jam tsa-yi sgron-ma) The third lamp is the “lamp of the soft white channel.” It is rigpa and the prana of

rigpa as it moves in the channels of the body, particularly the channel that connects the heart to the eyes. It is associated with the

sambhogakaya. The third lamp is the rigpa as it pervades, as it seems to move from the heart center throughout experience.

Rigpa is not a substance and does not move. Rigpa abides in the heart, unmoving like the dharmakaya, but here it seems to be

moving. The movement in the third lamp is actually the liveliness of rigpa. It is the life-force prana. It is the wisdom of rigpa,

which pervades everywhere. Although rigpa does not move, there is movement in rigpa and rigpa can be experienced in

movement. The practitioner who is distracted from the nature of mind can seem to be far from rigpa but no one can ever be truly

separated from his or her own nature. We find ourselves unable to recognize rigpa even though it is the awareness underneath

the search, the searcher, and the not finding. Because we seem to lose connection to pure presence, we need to go back into

ourselves, into the heart, into the center of experience. If the practitioner recognizes the essence in the first lamp or abides in

rigpa in the second lamp, in the apparent movement of the third lamp he or she will continue to abide in pure presence and the

movement will be integrated with the nature of mind. The point of the third lamp is to recognize the light of the penetrating

wisdom as it moves through the channels.

The fourth lamp (rgyang-zhag chu-yi sgron-ma)

The fourth lamp is the “water lamp that lights the distance.” It is the innate awareness experienced through the senses,

particularly the eye (the water lamp). The teaching relates the fourth lamp to the nirmanakaya. For the practitioner, this lamp is

found in the first moment of sensory experience, before the conceptual mind shapes the raw sense data into apparent entities

and things. For most beings identified with the moving mind, this first moment of experience is like a very brief moment of

blankness. But for the practitioner who has been introduced to the nature of mind, the first moment of any experience allows

direct recognition of the innate non-dual awareness of rigpa. The point of the fourth lamp is to see the light of naked awareness

before experience is divided into particular forms or entities.

The fifth lamp (zhing khams ngo-sprod sgron-ma) The fifth lamp is the “lamp of introduction to the pure land.” It is the light of

rigpa as it manifests as luminous, apparently external objects and visions. When the practitioner abides in the primordial

awareness of the first lamp, the objects that arise to the senses remain pure and non-dual. This is known as “cutting doubt in the

three bodies (kayas).” One of the symbols used in teaching Dzogchen is the hollow doll, an empty shell with holes in it where the

senses would be in a person: eyes, ears, mouth, and nose. In a dark room, a lit candle is placed inside the doll. There is light in

the center of the doll, light moving throughout the doll, and light illuminating what is external to the doll— it is all the same

light. Like the explanation in The Six Lamps, this points to the luminosity of primordial awareness as it is recognized in different

contexts. The light from inside the doll illuminates what is external to it. This is the opposite of the way we think in the West,

where it is believed that the world comes into us through the senses. In the Tibetan tradition, it is believed that the awareness

experiences through the senses. It is important to remember that what appears to be outside is actually phenomena arising in

awareness. Experience is non-dual; subject and object arise together. They are divided into internal self and external object only

conceptually— the light is not actually divided within or without. In reality both poles of duality are empty, luminous phenomena

arising in the nature of mind. This is the point of the fifth lamp— that the light of naked non-dual awareness lies under the


9 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

apparent division into subject and object.

The sixth lamp (bar-do dus-kyi sgron-ma) The sixth lamp is the lamp of the bardo, the intermediate state after death and before

rebirth. The visions and experiences that arise in the bardo are karmically determined manifestations of our own minds, as are

the experiences in this life. For the practitioner who recognizes their true nature, there is liberation. For the person who does not

recognize the visions as self-arising, one vision eventually dominates and the individual is led to the realm and specific situation

of his or her next rebirth in cyclic existence. The point of the sixth lamp is the recognition of the light of samsara and nirvana.

The central teaching of The Six Lamps is that everything— every experience, every thought, every identity— is the manifestation

of the pure, luminous basis of existence. One must recognize this and abide in the recognition.

Though The Six Lamps does not speak of five lights, the luminosity that it is describing is the five pure lights of the elements.

This is what is to be understood, recognized, and lived in. The luminosity in the first lamp is unbound pure presence. The

succeeding lamps are the fundamental pure presence abiding in the heart, arising as individual experience, operating in the

senses, manifesting as phenomenal appearance, and finally appearing as the bardo visions. The light that illuminates and is each

of these varied experiences is the same sacred light, the innate non-dual awareness. Dzogchen teachings say that all gross and

subtle visions— whether the outer visions of mountains and buildings and so on or the internal visions that arise in meditation

and spiritual practice— arise from the five pure lights. One needs support to experience the five pure lights

internally, the support of practice and the teachings. Through the grosser external visions, one tries to experience the

subtle. Through experience of the subtle vision, one tries to recognize the pure luminosity— the five pure lights— in all external

visions.

For the practice of Dzogchen, one must learn to abide in the realization of the first lamp through all experience. We can meditate

in a shrine room and have experiences of emptiness, clarity, and bliss. And then get up and walk to the store and become

involved with someone and lose ourselves in the interaction. But the awareness underlying both the meditative experience and

the distractions of our daily lives is what we must recognize and abide in. When we abide in rigpa, what we experience as

external is less substantial. Our identities are less substantial. Our problems are less substantial. We experience rigpa

everywhere; there is no difference between inside and outside the body. There is no difference between meditation and

non-meditation. We experience rigpa through the senses. This is not done with the senses; what is experienced with the senses

are the sense objects. Experiencing rigpa through the senses has nothing to do with sense objects; it is about connecting to the

inner light— abiding in rigpa— and staying connected during sensual experiences. Dzogchen isn’t really about the personal. It is

concerned with space and light, with emptiness and non-dual awareness, more than with the development of qualities. Dzogchen

truly begins as a path when the first lamp is recognized, and it isn’t the property of Tibetans or Westerners, of humans or

non-humans. What is realized is the nature of every being.

Rinpoche, Tenzin Wangyal (2002-05-25). Healing with Form, Energy, and Light: The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism,

Tantra, and Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2810-2823). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

TI

C T

Manifesting all these qualities are crucial on the training path.

Integrating/metabolizing the learned qualities are also very crucial.

Sometimes i forget that dissolving the manifested are equally vital.

I think a lot of practitioners concentrate highly on the manifesting and integrating aspects, and tend to ignore the

dissolving practices, which will result in imbalances eventually.

The thing to bear in mind with adhering to these three 'steps' is to make it habitual, so that when death occurs, the

sequence will arise spontaneously, and this can assist to allay all associated fears at that time so that death can be

transitioned with as little obstacles as possible.

Before death occurs, check conduct. During dying phase, check conduct. After death, check conduct.

According to Vajrayana teachings, this should be at the heart of all practices -- hence, the advice that in all

approaches in terms of one's daily practice and also in life, there ought to be a mindfulness that intentions must

Posted 01 March 2013 - 04:06 AM


10 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

be good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end.

Dedications of merit before one ends formal sessions of meditative absorptions are very powerful and of immense

benefit, for it seals the accumulated merit so that leaks do not occur. I think this is the one practice which sets the

Vajrayana path apart from many others.

Reading the contributions here reminded me of the 3 goods... Arising, Abiding and Cessation.

The tendency to be 'caught in the self' can be avoided as one begins to become more and more conscious of this

useful practice tool.

r v

C T, on 01 Mar 2013 - 05:06, said:

Manifesting all these qualities are crucial on the training path.

Integrating/metabolizing the learned qualities are also very crucial.

Sometimes i forget that dissolving the manifested are equally vital.

I think a lot of practitioners concentrate highly on the manifesting and integrating aspects, and tend to ignore the dissolving

practices, which will result in imbalances eventually.

The thing to bear in mind with adhering to these three 'steps' is to make it habitual, so that when death occurs, the sequence will

arise spontaneously, and this can assist to allay all associated fears at that time so that death can be transitioned with as little

obstacles as possible.

Before death occurs, check conduct. During dying phase, check conduct. After death, check conduct.

According to Vajrayana teachings, this should be at the heart of all practices -- hence, the advice that in all approaches in terms

of one's daily practice and also in life, there ought to be a mindfulness that intentions must be good in the beginning, good in the

middle, and good in the end.

Dedications of merit before one ends formal sessions of meditative absorptions are very powerful and of immense benefit, for it

seals the accumulated merit so that leaks do not occur. I think this is the one practice which sets the Vajrayana path apart from

many others.


The tendency to be 'caught in the self' can be avoided as one begins to become more and more conscious of this useful practice

tool.

Much appreciation, CT. _/\_


RongzomFan

C T, on 01 Mar 2013 - 05:06, said:


Well you have to explain that there is no arising in the first place. Thus there is no arising, abiding and cessation.

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation,

duration, and destruction."

-Candrakirti



11 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

There is no arising in Dzogchen either. Instead we have the 3 inseperable wisdoms.

Edited by alwayson, 01 March 2013 - 10:45 AM.

r v

Tibetan_Ice, on 28 Feb 2013 - 20:57, said:

Hi Rainbowvein

Well, it's a little off topic, but, I have a long history of spiritual practices.. for what it is worth.

<snip>

ps.. Love your name..

TI, I appreciate your reply. And thanks for the compliment!


C T

alwayson, on 01 Mar 2013 - 11:44, said:


"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and

destruction."

-Candrakirti


About practice, which my post was referring to, Longchenpa said:

"Begin with bodhicitta, do the main practice without concepts,

conclude by dedicating the merit. These, together and complete,

are the three vital supports for progressing on the path to liberation."

http://www.lotsawaho...oble-principles (http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/khenpo-shenga/three-

noble-principles)

Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:36 PM

stefos

Tibetan_Ice, on 28 Feb 2013 - 21:57, said:

My God Stefos, you are just all over the place, aren't you?

I did read some J Krishnamurti, and then I read some U G Krishnamurti ( a while ago), just so I didn't confuse the two..

I wondered who pee-ed in U G's cornflakes..

Instead of giving advice, I would be more interested in hearing about your regular practices (or non-practices) and experiences.

Thanks for posting the auric sight experience in the occult thread. Although it was an elementary experience, the important part

of it was that by resting your head on your hands and gazing upwards like you did, you tied into the secret kati channel from the

heart to the head. The purple and green lights were part of that heart-consciousness manifestation.

TI

Hi TI,



12 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

My Dzogchen transmission is from the Buddhist side: Guru Namkhai Norbu...my sweet root teacher!

BTW sir you misunderstood what I posted!

Here's what happened, put succinctly:

I played the bowl, placed it on it's stand, walked over to the owner of the store who was opposite me and then I

just rested my forearms (bony side) on the counter and just relaxed. I didn't hold my head with my hands.....I

then saw what looked like a veil lift from over my 2 eyes and I saw 2 bands of color near her ribcage (pastel green

then outside of that pastel purple with black mixed in....not balls of light!!) lol

So, There it is.

Stefos

P.S. The Bardo Thodol mentions combining Mahamudra & Dzogchen.....Since I have Dzogchen transmission I

desire to mix it with Mahamudra as well. I actually found a Mahamudra teacher in Boston when I went into a

metaphysical bookstore.

Mixy Mixy time!!!!!!!!

Edited by stefos, 01 March 2013 - 05:45 PM.

Tibetan_Ice

alwayson, on 01 Mar 2013 - 11:44, said:



destruction."

-Candrakirti


Hi Alwaysoff,

Again you leave me with the task of clarifying your brutally pithy statements, realizing their context and then

dismissing them as incorrect and totally misconstrued.

Let's take your first statement.

Quote

"Well you have to explain that there is no arising in the first place. Thus there is no arising, abiding and cessation"

The 'thing' that does not arise nor pass is the primordial base of rigpa. All else arises and passes. Thoughts arise

and pass, objects arise and pass, in fact everything including the world/universe arises and passes.

The primordial base is that from which all phenomenon arise from and pass into. That is the only thing that is

beyond arising and passing.

You said:

Quote


destruction."

-Candrakirti

This statement, which is no doubt a support for dependant origination is not referring to the that which arises and



13 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

passes from mother rigpa. The true meaning of that statement is that, because there is no intrinsic existence due

to dependant origination, all that is derived or manifested from this lack of intrinsic existence is also

non-existant. It is a top-down statment, and one which should not be taken out of context because, as you have

used it here, it would make no sense to the common reader or the conceptual mind.

On the conceptual level, we can clearly see that the world manifests, endures and then dissolves. This is the

impermanence that most Buddhist manuals teach. If you wish to put your quotes in proper context, be my guest.

From my point of view, we can examine the Clear Light without establish which Buddhist views related to

dependant origination are 'superior'. As a matter of fact, we can dispense with this form of elitism as they are only

candy for the conceptual mind and the ego.

But what is your understanding of the "Clear Light"? (to get back to the topic in this thread)

In another thread you said:

http://thetaobums.co...aoism/?p=387903 (http://thetaobums.com/topic/25981-dzogchen-and-daoism

/?p=387903)

Quote

Dzogchen Upadesha : Nonarising/illusion since the five pure lights never display as anything other than the five pure lights.

Your belief is at odd with other respectible Bon/Dzogchen Teachers/practioners. It appears as though you've

totally missed it.

Quote

From the five pure lights of the natural mind arise The unchanging dimension of the body, The unceasing pure manifestation of

speech, And the undiluted enlightened mind.

The Clear Light

The pure state of the mind, the base of Buddhahood, has a quality of clear light, which develops into the pure light of the natural

state. This light is "rainbow light," not material light. It is the natural energy of the primordial state and the cause of samsara and

nirvana. Through the movement of this pure light, which is the inner rigpa energy in the dimension of the primordial base, the

five pure lights develop and begin to appear. This process is represented by the five-colored tigle that surrounds the white A and

which symbolizes the primordial natural condition.

The pure lights of the five colors constitute the second step in the production of existence; they are the source of the five

elements that are the underlying structure of both the external existence of the world and the internal existence of the individual.

In seeing these, we perceive the elements in their gross form, but in reality the source of the elements is the pure light of the

natural state.

The energy of the five pure lights arises in the primordial base and creates and gives substance to internal and external reality. In

the mandala of the human body, this clear light energy resides in the heart, rises through the channels, and is projected through

the eyes. It is the basis of all vision and moves from the inner to the outer dimension. According to the traditional explanation,

external existence is constituted by the world in its function of outer mandala or "container" of the individual. The internal

existence of the self or individual is divided into internal, external, and secret. The external existence of the individual consists of

the five sense objects perceived by the five sense consciousnesses. Internal existence is the sixth sense consciousness, the mind,

together with proprioception or the inner consciousness of the body. Secret existence is the movement of thoughts. In the last

analysis, the division of existence into internal and external is based on a false view formed by the conceptual mind regarding the

dualistic condition. In the true condition there is no distinction between internal and external since the same empty space gives

rise to internal and external existence alike, just as the air inside and outside a jar is the same.

Development of the Five Lights

The five lights can develop in two ways, depending on whether or not one is present in awareness in the primordial state. If there

is understanding, the five pure lights give rise to the five pure visions, and wisdom begins to develop the pure body. In this way,

the five pure lights give rise to the five pure elements, which give rise to the five internal elements, then successively to the five

external elements, the five sense consciousnesses, the five sense organs, the five sense objects, the five bodies, and the five

wisdoms. This process leads to nirvana or final, total realization. But if there is distraction and lack of understanding, the five

pure lights become gross and start to transform into the five coarse elements, then successively into the five impure organs, five

deluded sense consciousnesses, the five deluded sense organs and so on, finally giving rise to the five poisons or five passions,

the five negative actions, and the illnesses derived from these. Each passion is connected with the light of a particular color and

element. This is the process of continuous transmigration in samsara.


14 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

Page 1 of 2 Back to Buddhist Discussion

The Tao Bums → Tao Lounge → General Discussion → Buddhist Discussion

Tenzin Wangyal. Wonders Of The Natural Mind: The Essense Of Dzogchen In The Native Bon Tradition Of Tibet (Kindle

Locations 1443-1456). Kindle Edition.

So, we see that the five lights do display as something other than just the pure lights. And, we also see that the five

lights arise, and that they can be developed. Further, they are the source of both nirvana and samsara.

And in this quote, we also see, from a different source, that the five lights manifest visions:

Quote

By continuing to practice, the absolute space and awareness are separated from the point between the eyebrows [they become

separated from sensory phenomena"], and the lamp of the empty bindus effortlessly arises and approaches. The bindus turn into

the size of peas, and awareness proceeds like a bird that is just able to fly. By continuing to practice, visions of the five lights

transform so that they appear in a fragmented fashion, vertically, horizontally, like spear-points, similar in

aspect to [holes in] a black yak-hair tent, and like the squares of a chess board; and those lights pervade

everything in front of you. Moreover, the bindus also transform so that they are like a mirror, and awareness appears in the

manner of a running deer. By continuing to practice, visions of the absolute space appear in the aspects of a jewel lattice, [725]

lattices and half-lattices of light, checkered, radiant, like spear-points, and a multilayered stupa, a thousand-petaled lotus, a halo,

the sun and moon, a castle, a sword, [a vajra,]' a wheel, and like the shape of a fisheye. Moreover, that light fills the environment

in which you live. The bindus become like brass bowls, and your awareness becomes like a bee hovering over nectar.

Karma Chagme. Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen (Kindle Locations

2271-2278). Kindle Edition.

If you wish to defend your statements, please quote viable references and support your statements with the

scholarly standards taught in most colleges and universities, as you so often pretend to adhere to.

TI


15 of 15 10/27/13 8:33 AM

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