Oral History Center University of California The Bancroft ... · Steve Voris, 2017 . Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley iv Abstract Steven

Oral History Center University of California

The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California

Steve Voris

Steve Voris: An Army Perspective on Life on the Post

Presidio Trust Oral History Project

Life on the Post

Interviews conducted by

Barbara Berglund Sokolov

in 2017

Copyright © 2020 by The Regents of the University of California

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley ii

Since 1954 the Oral History Center of The Bancroft Library, formerly the Regional Oral History

Office, has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in

the development of Northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral History is a method of

collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand

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*********************************

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between The Regents

of the University of California and Steve Voris dated June 12, 2017. The

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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:

Steve Voris, "Steve Voris: An Army Perspective on Life on the Post"

conducted by Barbara Berglund Sokolov in 2017, Oral History Center, The

Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 2020.

http://ucblib.link/OHC-rights

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley iii

Steve Voris, 2017

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley iv

Abstract

Steven Voris was born in the 1950s in Lebanon, Indiana. He attended Ball State University

where he majored in business and secondary history teaching. He worked at a bank in

Indianapolis before being drafted into the Army in 1966 at age 26. He served as a private before

applying to Officers Candidate School. He spent two years in Germany and went to Vietnam as a

captain. After his tour in Vietnam, he worked at Presidio from June 1982 to June 1987. In this

interview, he discusses his early life, education, early days in the Army, his tour in Vietnam,

returning home, and life on the post at the Presidio.

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley v

Table of Contents

Presidio Trust Oral History Project History vii

Interview 1: June 12, 2017

Hour 1 1

Assigned to Presidio with the help of Major General David E. Grange, Junior —

Born in Lebanon, Indiana, idyllic 1950s childhood — Family moved to

Indianapolis in early 1960s, attended Ball State University majoring in business

and secondary history teaching — Job at a bank in Indianapolis, drafted into the

Army in 1966 at age 26 as a private — Application to Officers Candidate School

— Officers Candidate School was demanding physically and mentally: "Probably,

in our class, 230 guys started, all guys in those days, and I think about 120 of us

graduated." — Graduates who were married were assigned to Germany, was in

Bamberg and travelled around, had an infant daughter — Made friends with the

locals, particularly the barber, Heinz Fiedler, and attended Fasching parties in the

spring, good relations between German civilians and American military — Spent

two years in Germany and went to Vietnam as a captain, went on many patrols —

Six months as a company commander and did air control operations for the last

six months, not focusing on Nixon or Lyndon Baines Johnson, trying to stay alive

— Interesting stories, spending time in a village with a one-armed Frenchman,

complicated layers of imperial control and civil war — Eating dog, very different

from Indiana, returning home to Indianapolis, going to Fort Carson, Colorado,

deciding to stay in the Army — Compartmentalizing feelings about social and

political uproar after Vietnam, and duty to country and service — Went to more

military schooling, and then sent to recruit in Bloomington, Indiana for ten years,

met second wife, Betty, in Indianapolis — Second military shirt on standby at all

times, in case he suddenly had to take a photo — Comfortable job, but real

pressures underneath to recruit and meet sales goals, two men committed suicide

— Going to Korea’s headquarters as part of the Second Infantry Division, up on

the demilitarized zone, meeting Jimmy Carter before the Hostage Crisis in Iran

Hour 2 20

Meeting Jimmy Carter by accident: "He was personable and he realized there’d

been kind of a snafu and he thought it was kind of funny, too" — Going to the

Seventh Infantry Division at Fort Ord, California, then assigned to the Recruiting

and Retention Division of Sixth Army in Presidio, California


Hour 1 23

Working at Presidio from June 1982 to June 1987: "That was a time of healing for

soldiers and families, as well as the Army itself, and kind of a recovery period, if

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley vi

you will, and prior to the first Gulf War" — General popularity of Presidio as a

military base, very livable and natural beauty, enrolling in Golden Gate

University to prepare for military retirement and civilian life — Job of the Sixth

Army, coordinating the National Guard and Reserve training for the twelve

western states, recruitment and retention, promotion to major — Gender and

racial mixing in the military, being paid based on skill and time spent in service,

gender and race blind — Military rituals, playing Taps at eleven o’clock at night

from a recording — Meeting sponsors, people to help you navigate the ins and

outs of Presidio, telling them about the history of the buildings, position as a

docent at the officer’s club — Liverpool Lil’s, the Final Final, a lot of fluidity

between the city and the post — Pursuing an MBA in marketing at Golden Gate

University, taking evening classes with civilians, people being curious about what

happened in the military base, getting food from the Army grocery store for

cheaper than Marina Safeway, civilians unsure if allowed into the base — Having

dogs who loved Presidio, one of the factors as to staying after becoming a

civilian, moving to Potrero Hill, using the GI Bill — Military taking care of its

people: "You’d be hard pressed to think of a service in San Francisco that you

didn’t have here", having a food bank, Star Presidian, for lower ranking soldiers

— Presidio Trust has a lot of history, adobe walls from the early 1800s, Army

colonels from WW2 — Change from an Army post to a national park, being

involved as a docent at the Officer’s Club and then the Heritage Program: "Here

you’ve got two or three generations of people coming through here and reliving

memories. I get that all the time and that’s always good and refreshing" — Other

aspects of Presidio’s history, Vietnamese children refugees coming through

Presidio and getting initial medical care and processing before being adopted by

American families, positive aspects of the military’s interactions with people in

Vietnam

Hour 2 44

No regrets with military career and business career — Proud of serving wonderful

men and women, country, wonderful history in Presidio

Narrator Addenda

Man in the Mirror 46

Freedom Bird 47

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley vii

Presidio Trust Oral History Project History

The Presidio of San Francisco is a new kind of national park. It is home to the spectacular vistas,

nature, and programs that visitors would expect, as well as a community of residents and

organizations who bring renewed vitality and purpose to this former military post. The Presidio

Trust is an innovative federal agency created to save the Presidio and share it with the public.

The Presidio Trust Oral History Project captures new layers of the history of the Presidio. The

project complements ongoing archaeological research and fulfills historic preservation

obligations through interviews with people associated with the Presidio of San Francisco, for

example: former soldiers, nurses, doctors, civilian workers, military families, descendants of

Californios and Native Californians; environmental groups; and Presidio Trust and National Park

Service employees. The interviews capture a range of experiences, including the legacies of

colonialism, stories of service and sacrifice, the role of the Presidio in a range of global conflicts,

everyday life on the post, and of how this post became a park. The Presidio Trust and the Oral

History Center have embarked on a multiyear collaboration to produce these oral histories.

The goals of the Presidio Trust Oral History Project/Presidio are twofold. First, to create new

knowledge about life on the post during peacetime, as well as during global conflicts, that

illuminates the diversity of experiences and the multiplicity of voices that is the essence of

Presidio history. And second, to share this knowledge with the public in ways that leverage the

power of first-person narratives to allow people to see themselves reflected in the Presidio’s past

so they feel connected to its present. The kinds of questions we seek to answer include: "How

can the Presidio’s military legacy inform our national intentions?" and "How can examining the

cultural mosaic of people living in and around the Presidio shape our understanding of the

nation?"

Life on the Post

The Presidio has served as a military reservation from its establishment in 1776 as Spain's

northern-most outpost of colonial power in the New World. It was one of the longest-garrisoned

posts in the country and the oldest installation in the American West. It played a key role in

Spain's exploration and settlement of the borderlands, Mexico's subsequent control of the region

from Texas to Alta California, and the United States' involvement not only in frontier expansion,

but also in all major conflicts since the Mexican-American War of 1846–48. It was designated a

National Historic Landmark on June 13, 1962.

The Presidio served as a US Army Post from 1847 to 1994. This large military reservation at the

Golden Gate developed into the most important Army post on the Pacific Coast. Over time its

armaments evolved from smoothbore cannons to modern missiles. It became the nerve center of

a coastal defense system that eventually included Alcatraz and Angel Island and that reached as

far north as the Marin Headlands and as far south as Fort Funston (all these former military lands

were later incorporated into the Golden Gate National Recreation Area). Eventually, there were

five distinct posts at the Presidio, each with its own commander: the Main Post, Fort Point,

Letterman General Hospital, Fort Winfield Scott, and Air Coast Defense Station at Crissy Field.

Also on the 1,491-acre reservation were a Coast Guard lifesaving station and a US Public Health

Service Hospital.

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley viii

In 1972, the Presidio of San Francisco — then an active installation — was included within the

boundaries of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. On October 1, 1994, after the post

became excess to military needs, it was transferred to the National Park Service.

The Presidio offers a window into the changes in American society over a span of almost 150

years. The shift from an originally bachelor society where only officers could marry to a

community with families and children, advances in modern medicine and health care at

Letterman General Hospital, the introduction and expansion of the role of women in the military,

the racial integration of the armed forces in advance of American society at large, all are integral

to the Presidio's history and reflect American national history. The Presidio is home to one of the

nation's finest collections of fortifications, landscapes, buildings, structures and artifacts related

to military history.

Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley 1


01-00:00:02

Berglund Sokolov: This is Presidio Trust historian Barbara Berglund Sokolov, interviewing

Stephen Voris on June 12, 2017 in Moraga Hall at the Presidio of San

Francisco. So Steve, I thought we’d start with a basic question since we’re

going to be talking about how you’re connected to the Presidio and this

place over time. What brought you to the Presidio?

01-00:00:26

Voris: Well, if you know, the [United States] Army moves people around on a

pretty regular basis, and I was due for reassignment. I was actually in the

Seventh Infantry Division at Fort Ord, so, not too far from here. In my

assignment before that, I was in Korea and was working in the division

headquarters. I was the secretary to the general staff, which kind of means

you’re the flunky, [laughter] but you get to know some people. The general I

worked for there, [for Major General] David E. Grange, Junior, wonderful

soldier, had been through three wars, and really had a rapport with the young

soldiers and personable, wonderful guy. He then got promoted with a third

star to lieutenant general, and I saw in the Army newspaper that he was

coming to the Presidio and I knew I was up for reassignment. Very difficult

to get assigned here, but he recalled that I had worked for him in Korea and

there was an opening here. Lo and behold, I was fortunate to make it here

and be assigned here. So that’s kind of how I ended up at the Presidio in

June of 1982.

01-00:01:51

Berglund Sokolov: Can you tell us a little bit about where you were born and where you grew

up?

01-00:01:59

Voris: Yeah. I was born in Lebanon, Indiana, which is middle of Indiana. Small

town, kind of commute distance, in today’s age, from Indianapolis, but still a

small town, like 10,000 people WE had our high school, the Lebanon Tigers.

Go, Tigers. I grew up there in a very 1950s environment. My father worked.

My mother stayed at home and raised three kids. We lived next to the city

park, and baseball diamond, and it was a wonderful experience as a kid

growing up. [I] had just a wonderful, wonderful, mother. It was a good

upbringing, from that standpoint.

01-00:02:43

Berglund Sokolov: Sounds very much like Americana, kind of in the heartland, right?

01-00:02:46

Voris: It was indeed.

01-00:02:46

Berglund Sokolov: In the literal heartland.


01-00:02:47

Voris: Yeah. And, I would go downsides, but as a youngster, you really felt that

you were. We were told, says, "You’re very lucky be where you are and

doing what you’re doing," and this type of thing. Now, but exposure to the

greater world, really not so much, I would have to say.

01-00:03:10

Berglund Sokolov: So, then you entered the military. You were drafted into the Army in 1966.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

01-00:03:19

Voris: Yes. The family had subsequently moved to Indianapolis for my father’s job

situation in the early ‘60s, and I had gone to Ball State University and had

graduated from there.

01-00:03:39

Berglund Sokolov: What was your major, Steve?

01-00:03:41

Voris: I was a business major and a history teacher, secondary. Did my student

teaching, did the whole bit, and I liked it a lot.

01-00:03:50

Berglund Sokolov: That’s great.

01-00:03:51

Voris: In any event, I went to work for a bank in Indianapolis in a training program,

and draft into the military wasn’t really a concern because I was married.

And then, on a drop of a dime, in the need for more people, the president

changed that virtually overnight. It changed the whole thing.

01-00:04:21

Berglund Sokolov: So that came as a real surprise to you, and something you weren’t quite—?

01-00:04:25

Voris: It did. There had been, like anything, rumblings in the press, and that, I think

they were doing some preparation work in case this happened. But still, it

was quite a shock. The environment in the family I came from and our roots

and orientation—my father had been in World War II—doing what a lot of

people did out of conscience or situation of protesting or leaving the country

just wasn’t in the lexicon. It was something I wouldn’t have thought about,

particularly with why.

01-00:05:03

Berglund Sokolov: And ’66 was still pretty early in that.

01-00:05:05

Voris: Pretty early in the procedure, yes. Yes.

01-00:05:09

Berglund Sokolov: So you really came from a family that believed in service.


01-00:05:14

Voris: Well, very much, and just very much influenced by my father, who was a

kind of a stereotypical Depression guy that went through the war, and was

kind of reserved and carried a lot of things with him for a long time. But

still, that was orientation. When it came time to go, he went, and so I did.

01-00:05:38

Berglund Sokolov: Do you want to talk a little bit about your trajectory from ’66 on, in the

military, before getting to the Presidio in the early ‘80s?

01-00:05:48

Voris: Well, so I’m in the Army as a private. Now, I was drafted. I only had like a

year to go and I would have been too old to draft. I was at the top end of the

age range, well, which really meant—

01-00:06:02

Berglund Sokolov: And how old was that, then?

01-00:06:04

Voris: 26, just 27. It was at top end of the age range, which meant a lot of training

and subsequent assignments because a lot of things you do in the Army is

kind of age based, what you can deal with at this age and this type of thing.

01-00:06:21

Berglund Sokolov: And even probably your education, the fact that you had a college degree.

01-00:06:26

Voris: Well, there were all types of folks in basic training with all different levels

of degrees and so forth, or non-degrees, and so, you went through the little

basic training routine. And then, one day, they said, "Okay," and they read

off a list of names. And says, "You guys come over here." And said, "Well,

you’re eligible to apply for Officers Candidate School, if you would like to,

based on your grades and scores on the tests." I thought, well, being a

practical person, I was getting eight-six dollars a month and an additional, I

think, forty dollars because I was married. Boy, that was nice.

01-00:07:19

Berglund Sokolov: Big, big money in those days.

01-00:07:20

Voris: That’s right. And said, "But if you go to OCS, second lieutenant, $333 a

month." I go, "Wow, I can triple my pay." I say that a little bit tongue in

cheek, but it was an opportunity. You think, well, I think I’ve got some

people skills and education and this type of thing. Why not? So I did. A long

story made short: I applied and went through some additional testing and so

forth, and went to Officers Candidate School.

01-00:07:54

Berglund Sokolov: Was that a pretty rigorous training experience?


01-00:07:58

Voris: Yeah, it certainly was, and particularly if you hadn’t had a lot of that type of

lifestyle before. But, very demanding. The principles the Army made their

decisions on: How will these people react under stress? If you’re tired and if

you’re hungry, and if there’s stressful situations, how are you going to react?

Are you going to be able to think clearly and know what to do, and be able

to do it and deal with it physically from a personal standpoint, and as the

people that you’re leading? Because you’re making decisions that really are

life and death.

The training was based a lot on that, a lot of physical exertion, kind of to an

extreme, and food deprivation. I don’t think they can do that in this day and

age to people, but they did. You would go through the food line at one point

and you have your tray there of food, you get to the end of the line, the guy

goes, "Dump it. Dump it!" Maybe you can grab a roll or something; they’d

let you do that and stuff. There was some, just to see how you’d win. You’d

have to get up in the middle of the night and do things, and immediately,

people were just dropping out right and left, right and left, right.

01-00:09:31

Berglund Sokolov: So a lot of people didn’t make it through the training.

01-00:09:34

Voris: Probably about so, yes. Probably, in our class, 230 guys started, all guys in

those days, and I think about 120 of us graduated.

01-00:09:52

Berglund Sokolov: Where was your training?

01-00:09:53

Voris: Fort Benning, Georgia. This would have been in late 1967, which would

have, and did make, my OCS graduating class prime cannon fodder for

Vietnam during the Tet Offensive of 1968. Who knows what happened

somewhere or made the decision. Eleven of us were married that graduated,

and eleven of us were assigned to Germany. I think, we’ll let this guy live a

couple more years. [laughs]

01-00:10:45

Berglund Sokolov: Did that come as a big surprise to you?

01-00:10:47

Voris: Total surprise.

01-00:10:48

Berglund Sokolov: You were gearing up for a tour in Vietnam, in your mind.

01-00:10:52

Voris: Yeah. Usually, what you’d do after graduation: You’d spend six months at a

training base, kind of to acclimate, and then you’d be off. All of a sudden,

you got orders, and all of us that went to Germany were married, so


somebody, somewhere had a little bit of a heart. So, rightly or wrongly, I

was in Germany and then came back to the States after a couple of years.

Great time in Germany, and learned a lot, a wonderful experience.

01-00:11:23

Berglund Sokolov: Where were you in Germany?

01-00:11:24

Voris: I was in Bamberg, which is in Bavaria, southern Germany, and so I had the

opportunity to go to Austria and to a lot of places: down at Garmisch-

Partenkirchen, down on the Austrian-Germany border, beautiful, beautiful

country.

01-00:11:40

Berglund Sokolov: A lot of travel for an Indiana boy?

01-00:11:43

Voris: A good bit, yes, uh-huh. Driving through, first there and driving through a

snowstorm in a military vehicle—a 113 is a combat vehicle—a young

lieutenant and snow in my eyes and couldn’t see. All of a sudden, the snow

clears a little bit and there is a castle. I’m looking at a castle. I said, "Boy,

you’re not in Indiana anymore." [laughter] It was an honest-to-God castle on

a hill. "I fear you’re not in Indiana anymore." So that was some of the

experiences I had there.

01-00:12:19

Berglund Sokolov: You said you were married. Did you have children when you were in

Germany?

01-00:12:26

Voris: Yes, I had an infant daughter that was with us in Germany, lives in Indiana

today with her family and two boys.

01-00:12:36

Berglund Sokolov: Can you talk a little bit about your experience at different military bases and

the connections or not to the communities that they’re embedded in?

01-00:12:52

Voris: I will have to say, during my earlier years in the military, I really was pretty

much ghettoized. You lived within the military because it was a very intense

period. You were either in training or you were living in your military

community, and you just didn’t really have a lot of exposure to the outside

world. Now, exception I had in Germany on that: A lot of the German

civilian employees that worked for the Army then, well, they wanted to be

friends because there might be some little financial opportunities, if they

could sell you a car or something. But this one man, Heinz Fiedler—I’ll

always remember his name—he was the barber. We became good friends

and we went to Fasching parties with him in Germany.


01-00:13:50

Berglund Sokolov: What are Fasching parties?

01-00:13:51

Voris: It’s spring, the coming of spring, and it entails just some God-awful strong

liquor. [laughter] A lot of schnapps.

01-00:14:04

Berglund Sokolov: The spring version of Oktoberfest.

01-00:14:06

Voris: That’s right. Fasching is the coming of spring. I did get some exposure to

German, and we did live, what was called, on the economy. We lived in

downtown Bamberg. Really, I wasn’t eligible at that time. I wasn’t

considered a career soldier, so I wasn’t eligible for government quarters. We

had a little apartment downtown in Bamberg, which was interesting. That

was some exposure. We went to Oktoberfests, which were just like

incredible events, gals with these big steins of beer, and these tents, and the

little, tiny bit off color.

So you’re at an Oktoberfest. You’re drinking a lot of beer. Well, you have a

need for a restroom. The restrooms were like temporary, semi-trailer things,

and like a lot of the port-o-john. But you go in and there’s a woman sitting

there, collecting the five pfennigs and keeping the washbasin clean and that

kind of stuff. [laughter] Well, she didn’t care, but I thought, this isn’t Indiana

either, exactly. [laughter] There were some wonderful experiences, and the

food. You go out to the little guest houses in the countryside and they looked

really favorably on you. And no, they come in, and went to a lot of that. We

went to one guesthouse, which was a bar, which had been opened since

before Columbus discovered America. Now, it burnt down a couple of times.

And Hitler had been there. That was something that you mentioned to

tourists.

So, it was that kind of environment. It was kind of, maybe, the

unreconstructed Germany in the early ‘60s. We would meet Forest Meisters

when we’d go down. You never knocked down a tree in Germany, very big

deal. We did with our vehicles and it was just hell to pay. You’d have to go

out and talk to the Forest Meister, the guy in charge of the forest, and this

one, he had to have been a Nazi. He was blue-eyed, blond hair, and very

precise. But so, there were some interesting experiences there, but by and

large, you were living in your military community. You did military stuff.

Of course, in Germany, you had language considerations because you didn’t

go to a language school or something. In the States, you were always

training and you were never very long at any one place. Civilian interaction

[was] really pretty much minimal.


01-00:16:58

Berglund Sokolov: In Germany, it sounds like there was pretty good feelings between the

German civilians and the American military who were stationed there.

01-00:17:06

Voris: There really were in those days. It wasn’t too far from the time when we

were the occupiers, but I will say, the Army went to some lengths to

maintain good relationships. They had a competition in Bamberg every year,

a shooting competition on the ranges. I was involved with that, with the

civilian community, and they would come in. So there was some interaction

from that standpoint. So that was a good thing, but—

01-00:17:41

Berglund Sokolov: What was your work like, at this point? What kind of work were you doing?

01-00:17:45

Voris: Well, I was an infantry company commander as a lieutenant, which was

unusual, but all of us were lieutenant infantry because the more experienced

guys were in Vietnam.

01-00:17:59

Berglund Sokolov: What made that unusual?

01-00:18:01

Voris: Because it’s a captain's position. It’s a captain’s position to be a company

commander; usually, a lieutenant is a platoon commander, so, which is like

thirty guys. Instead, you’ve got 120, and mortars and vehicles and this type

of thing. Some of us ended up in that position, which was a bit unusual, but

it was challenging and you learned a lot and kind of set the stage for things

to come, so to speak.

01-00:18:36

Berglund Sokolov: Mm-hmm. Where did your military trajectory take you after Germany?

01-00:18:42

Voris: Well, it took me to Vietnam. I had spent my two years there in Germany,

and so I thought, well, Voris has lived two years, time to toss him into the

hopper. I mentioned that OCS grads were looked at, kind of, in one respect.

Most of the West Point people, I get along with wonderfully, but I had a

colonel tell me once, said, "Well, you’re the hired help." [I could have left

the Army at that point, but elected to stay in.]

01-00:19:13

Berglund Sokolov: As opposed to officers, who were trained at—

01-00:19:16

Voris: Military academy graduates. In a way, you were. They needed soldiers and

they needed lieutenants, and the highest casualty rate, percentagewise, in any

combat, is the infantry’s second lieutenant. Percentagewise, more are killed

and wounded.


01-00:19:39

Berglund Sokolov: Why is that?

01-00:19:40

Voris: Well, because you’re the leader and you have to do things, and you’re in the

small group environment, and there’s one of you. There are thirty soldiers.

To be a small unit leader, you had to be at the front and you had to be

guiding and telling people what to do and exposing yourself and making

decisions. It puts you at more risk. It puts you at way more risk. In any

event, that’s the way that went, and there was a need for lots of lieutenants,

to kind of go into the hopper. I was fortunate; by the time I got to Vietnam, I

was a captain, because they were accelerating promotions a lot then, as well,

and worked in the brigade headquarters, I guess, for a period, battalion

headquarters for a period of time, and then became a rifle company

commander in Vietnam, and did that stuff for a few months.

01-00:20:55

Berglund Sokolov: What was that like?

01-00:20:56

Voris: Well, you were wet a lot, [laughs] because I ended up going out in the

monsoons. We were outside of Saigon along what was Route One, is the

road that ran up and down the country and there were a lot of rocketeers. At

this point in things, and this was late ’69 and ’70, we were trying to keep the

rocketeers from shooting rockets into Saigon area, and Long Binh and Tan

Son Nhut, which were the big military bases and airfields there. We were

doing that type of thing. A lot of it was like triple canopy jungle, really

dense stuff, and then a lot of it would be out along the highway, which we

cleared back, but not too much interaction with Vietnamese communities.

We were kind of in the outback kind of thing, so we didn’t have the

exposure to a lot of communities. Some, but not near as much as a lot of

people did, depending on where you were. So, that’s how I spent my time,

kind of, chasing rocketeers around and that type of thing.

01-00:22:18

Berglund Sokolov: Was that going out on patrols?

01-00:22:21

Voris: Patrols, uh-huh. You’d take your company out and look for bad guys, and

they would be looking for you, of course, and set up ambushes and this type

of thing, and so that’s what I did then. I’d look at the flash suppressor on the

end of my rifle and say, "This is the foremost extension of American power."

Now, that’s kind of dramatic thing to say, I know, but it’s kind of how I felt

about it. It was a tough life, obviously, and fraught with a lot of stuff, and

most of us, got most of the boys through pretty good. I spent six years, I

mean, six months as a company commander, and then came back into

battalion headquarters and was S3-AIR, and did air control operations for

my last six months, which was a wonderful—well, which I liked a lot. You

coordinate the air strikes, and the helicopters going in, and the artillery when


they’re going into a landing zone type of thing, and it had to be very precise

or it could really be a mess. I did that, as well. That was how I spent my year

there.

01-00:23:54

Berglund Sokolov: How were you feeling about the war at that point?

01-00:24:01

Voris: What I used for motivation for my soldiers, and I think they appreciated it,

before we’d get ready to go out: I had my three platoons of soldiers and I

had my lieutenants that were in; I put them together. I said—because there

was some reluctance at that point—said, "If we don’t shoot this guy then

he’s going to shoot at us." I said, "Look, if you don’t shoot them, they’re

sure as hell going to shoot you." It was a very personal, day-to-day thing.

01-00:24:42

Berglund Sokolov: Life and death.

01-00:24:43

Voris: It was life and death. You weren’t really talking about, well, LBJ [Lyndon

Baines Johnson] or Nixon, at that point, was doing this or that, or Kissinger

has opened up—no. It’s how you’re going to make it through the next

mission, and where you’re going. Then soldiers would all gather around

when you gave—I’d give the lieutenant, say, "Okay, we’re going here and

here and here, and you’re going to go here." So, that’s how I used to, and I

think they appreciated that, so you weren’t blowing smoke in anybody’s ear.

You weren’t trying to say any big, grandiose statements, so. You said, "This

is it; this is what we’re doing." I think there was still an underlying feeling,

or I like to think there was, that you were better than the other guys, because

we saw what they did to anybody that objected to the—and how they treated

them and what was done.

When I first went there, I had about a month, I had, wonderful experience

with my mentor—I could give you his name but I won’t here—and we went

into Vietnam villages, small village that he had obliterated the VC [Viet

Cong] tax collectors that would come in at night and take—and they were

just brutal. The [people] there, [Vietnamese] citizens of the village, were

very pleased that he had done this for him, that he had ridded themselves of

these tax [collections], because they were brutal. They’d just shoot you or

they’d take your children, or whatever. But it was a French rubber plantation

village, wonderful experiences.

Jim, [laughs] he had had one tour over there as a special forces officer. He

was back for his second, and he had some mental adjustment problems, but

he’d show me around, and we did things. We went, at one time, to—because

the French, who still had some kind of an interest in this plantation, the

bastards, but they were complaining badly because Jim’s soldiers had blown

up a bunch of their company hooches [huts]. [laughter] They’d thrown


grenades in there; probably didn’t have to, but maybe they did. So we went.

He said, "You got to come with me to this thing." We go in this room,

Barbara, and it’s like out of Casablanca. It’s all white, but there’s bullet

holes in the walls, in the white plaster in the walls, and there’s a big,

overhead, rotating fan, but it’s not rotating; there’s no electricity. Out of the

side room comes this Frenchman—frogs, we called them—all dressed in

colonial whites. Sits down at the desk there and starts berating us for

blowing up his place. [laughs] I never figured out if he was a government

employee or if he was involved with the plantation itself, but I go, this is

unbelievable!

01-00:28:16

Berglund Sokolov: That’s fascinating, because it really—

01-00:28:17

Voris: It was fascinating, and, as we’re going in, chairs, suddenly, are being pushed

under you. Said, "I know these are VC." They were being very subservient at

pushing the chairs under you. Sit down, and then once you stood up, they

were helping you. I said, "I know they were VC." The general had to sign off

on the paperwork. [laughs] I suppose the French got some money for

blowing—and he got kind of semi-chewed out a little bit, but he didn’t really

care.

01-00:28:47

Berglund Sokolov: It’s so interesting, because to me, that story says so much about the

complicated layers of imperial control and civil war and all of that, that was

rolling around at that time, right?

01-00:28:59

Voris: Yeah. This village made its money off the plantations, or it was a plantation

village, and as a result, it was a very wealthy village, and they pointed out

the beams in the ceiling which were wooden beams, and they were very

proud of their community center and this type of thing. And Jim, oh, he took

care of the tax collectors. Now, the story on the one-armed Frenchman.

Well, the one-armed Frenchman had been down to see the plantation guy

with us because the plantation guy refused to speak English.

01-00:29:34

Berglund Sokolov: He would only speak French?

01-00:29:35

Voris: The Frenchman, yes. Of course, we didn’t know any French. Jim didn’t

know a hell of a lot of English [laughter]—but the one-armed Frenchman

spoke a little bit of everything, Vietnamese, but he was really a one-armed

Frenchman. He was with us, and he was a character. He would do a little bit

of translation to English from French and French back to English, but it kind

of got garbled, [laughter] but it was a wonderful. I couldn’t believe it. There

are other stories on the one-armed Frenchman, and the Frenchman’s picnic.

Those are just like: this is unbelievable; this is out of the movies!


01-00:30:24

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah. Do you want to tell us about the Frenchman’s picnic?

01-00:30:27

Voris: Yeah, the Frenchman’s picnic. This was sometime later and I had left, kind

of, the plantation thing, and Jim was going around the corner. He’d had the

Vietnamese tailor in our little place—oh, they wasn’t supposed to—make

him a Vietnamese flag, which he took down and shot bullets into it, and then

splashed some kind of blood on it so he could take it back and sell it, that he

was, really, he was, and he had subsequently had some issues. Before the

Frenchman’s picnic, Jim and I went to—they were having some kind of a

formal luncheon for us. Jim said he's got to go. I said okay and we’d ride in

his Jeep. We’d be bouncing all along the roads through the rubber

plantations, and you’d see guys in black pajamas. You thought, those are

VC! [He] ended up going, "No, no, those are regional forces; they’re fine."

We got to the little place where we were having our luncheon with the

regional forces. They kind of lead us back in and we’re going to have rice

and meat, and leading us back through the kitchen area, outside. They had an

outside kitchen area, and then the animal there. They were cutting the pieces

of meat off the dog that we were going to be served for lunch. And the dogs

did have its head on so, and I thought, well!

01-00:32:07

Berglund Sokolov: Wow.

01-00:32:08

Voris: [laughter]

01-00:32:12

Berglund Sokolov: That’s not Indiana either!

01-00:32:13

Voris: Not in Indiana anymore. We went in, sat down. We had our lunch of rice and

dog, little, chopped up piece of dog and some kind of gravy over it, which

you just forced down. Jim goes, "You eat the goddamn dog, Voris."

[laughter] Now, he knew it. He wanted me to see the dog, that’s why we

went in the back, I found out later. So, I had that experience. But then the

one with the Frenchman’s picnic. This was sometime later, and we were

along the Route One and the rubber plantation was close by there, and we’d

been out for several days, and we weren’t happy and people were stinky. We

have a couple of tanks, American tanks, and just never did combined arms

operations. Those sergeants were very, very nervous. They said, "We

wouldn’t be here with tanks if the stuff wasn’t going to really hit the fan." I

said, "Well, let’s just do all our stuff we’re supposed to do," then we sat

there two or three days.

Nothing happened. We’re across from the rubber plantation, which also had

kind of a little airfield. And then one day, [a] day before we left, the small


Piper Cub plane comes in, [makes engine sound effect] and lands, and the

vehicle goes out to meet them, maybe the one-armed Frenchman, and lo and

behold, it’s—may be the damn guy that we, you know, that—and with his

wife and child, and they go in the middle of the rubber plantation—Barbara,

this is truth—throwing out their [blanket] to have a picnic. I’m across the

road and I’m stinky, dirty, and filthy, and we’re scared because there’s tanks,

and they’re out there having their picnic! They flew in from Saigon in this

little plane, and I’ll never forget it, I guess it was the wife or the girlfriend,

that she’s throwing out the blanket. We were, oh, a hundred yards away, but

we could still see it. Of course, the sergeants go, "Let’s kill the sumbitch."

[laughter] I go, "Do you imagine what the paperwork would be like? It

would be really bad, Sarge. We just don’t want to do that." So that, and after

a while, they quit, and evening was coming, and they got in their plane and

flew back to Saigon.

01-00:34:47

Berglund Sokolov: For them, it was a recreation spot; for you, it was a war zone.

01-00:34:50

Voris: That’s right! Well, they had nothing to worry about because they were

paying off everybody. Everybody was paid off. That’s just a vignette, and

the little story kind of ended there, but it’s just like, this is unbelievable! And

the dog, and Jim, [he was] friends with the one-armed Frenchman’s

girlfriend, or daughter. I don’t know; I forget which it was. [laughter]

01-00:35:16

Berglund Sokolov: How did things go from there? Did your last six months doing the aviation

stuff, and then, what happened next?

01-00:35:27

Voris: Well, then, we were reaching the point where the Army was leaving. This

was it, and so then I went to another division. I was with the 199th Infantry

Brigade, Separate and Light, and Second Battalion Third Infantry. First

Battalion is "The Old Guard" that is in Washington, DC, that you’re familiar

with of being there. Our saying was, "Old Guard, MF?," [laughter] when you

see somebody, an officer, later in the bar. I went to another division,

Twenty-Fifth Division, and headquarters, and kind of spent time for about

six weeks or so and then came home.

01-00:36:15

Berglund Sokolov: Where was home?

01-00:36:17

Voris: Well, I came back to Indianapolis, that was where my wife and daughter

were there. That’s where I went from Vietnam, and then went to Fort

Carson, Colorado. I was signed to there.

01-00:36:32

Berglund Sokolov: So you decided to stay in the Army.


01-00:36:35

Voris: I decided to stay, yes, and glad you mentioned it. I decided to stay in because

I had a wonderful family upbringing, wonderful life, but I was just never too

oriented on anything. I’d gone to school and kind of gone through the paces,

and had a job that had some promise to it, but then the domestic thing was

not turning out well. I thought, I know these guys. I believe in what I do. I

have some fun. I’ve always got a little bit of money. I’m pretty good at what

the heck I do. I said, "Well, okay." So, I did. I went to Fort Carson, said,

"Well, my time’s up," but just have a shot at it. The military is just brutal

because if they need bodies, fine.

I went along and things were good, then they started having a forced

reduction. I had gone to Advanced Army School then.[Section removed by

narrator.] Well, those people went out and were taken out, and they were

mostly eliminated, I think. Well, you know what? Here I am in this

advanced, and they start. They said, "Well, we’re going to call out names,

and the names of the people we call out, go outside and down the hall," and

they were doing the same thing. They called out the names of about thirty

people, and you knew what was going on. [Pink slip—career over.]

It was very tough, but you knew that’s kind of what you signed up for. I

made it through the RIF, reduction in force, what it was called, and it was at

Fort Carson, had a good tour there and a lot of fun. We were all, the guys I

hung out with, were all Vietnam vets, three of them were West Pointers, and

we just had a good time. You were so damned thankful for being alive. [Two

got married there, in the Airforce Academy chapel. Very cool. I was in both

weddings.]

01-00:39:10

Berglund Sokolov: After Vietnam.

01-00:39:11

Voris: Yes. Two of the guys, they had a very dark kind of joke, who had spent the

less time in Vietnam. One guy, I can’t remember his name, he had gotten or

he had been assigned to a mechanized unit, which had like small tanks, but

for infantry. That morning, he got his platoon, and they went out and they

stopped for lunch, and they jumped off the tank and jumped onto a mine.

01-00:39:48

Berglund Sokolov: Oh, my goodness.

01-00:39:49

Voris: I know. Suffered severe leg damage, but they’d patched him up, but he still

had terrible problems. This other guy, Eddie, I won’t mention his last name,

but matter of fact, subsequently, he was a West Pointer, subsequently

accepted for the astronaut program as a mission specialist, just a smart,

wonderful guy. He’d gotten his platoon in the morning and he’d gone, and

made it through the whole day and spent the night with them, and gotten up


the next morning to go out. Boom! Somebody tripped a mine and he got a

piece of metal through his throat. Well, it missed all the critical stuff. These

guys, they had this kind of dark thing. Said, "Well, I lasted half a day longer

than you did." The guy goes, "Yeah, but I was there two more days before I

went out." [laughter] So you had this kind of stuff, but we had a good time

and lived strong, and I thought, well, hell, this isn’t so bad. We’re not

making any money, but we always had a couple of dollars in our pocket.

01-00:40:59

Berglund Sokolov: How did it feel to be in the military and to be choosing to be in the military

with all the social and political uproar after Vietnam? I mean it sounds like

you still had a commitment to service, a commitment to country, and—

01-00:41:15

Voris: Oh sure, yeah. Yeah, sure, or you wouldn’t have been there, and you

compartmentalized those to an extent; you really did. I lived downtown in

Colorado Springs. There was never any problem with, or very little problem

with, the civilian populace, and of course, it was a military town. There were

people there that you met, schoolteachers and the like, so that you could get

a little bit of education and socialization and this type of thing. I think we all

knew kind of the frustrations of things, but it wasn’t a lot, among our group,

which was, kind of hung out with these three West Point guys, a couple,

three other guys, and Jackie, battalion guy. But so, we just said, "Well, here

we are now, and this is what we’re doing now, and this is the unit we’re in

now." There was a lot of compartmentalization, particularly—

01-00:42:26

Berglund Sokolov: Kind of like—

01-00:42:27

Voris: —at that time, because you just had your fanny on the line for a year, and

people shooting at you and making decisions of life and death, and it was

very difficult to say, well, "this was bad" or "this was wrong." It wasn’t

really something you verbalized or really dwelt on, I’ll say, from my groups,

the people that I was with. And, you had your reservations. I’m sure we had

some kind of discussions, but never a lot of self-flagellation or anything.

01-00:43:04

Berglund Sokolov: Right, it was more like you were getting the job done and getting the work

and all of that.

01-00:43:09

Voris: Yeah, and this is our life and this is our career. Of course, at that time, the

war was still going on, so we hoped there would be some resolution to it that

would justify a lot of the pain and agony, and death and destruction.

01-00:43:28

Berglund Sokolov: What happens after Colorado?


01-00:43:33

Voris: After Colorado, I went to some additional military schooling, and then we

were at the end of the draft era, and so they said, "Okay, Voris, you’re going

to be assigned to the recruiting command." I says, "What?" It was like it was

kind of a death knell. You think, you’re sending me to the recruiting co—

"Yep, yeah, and matter of fact, we’re going to send you back to Indiana

where you’re from." "What? What are you do?" Well, the only way they

were going to get people in the military was with recruiting effort, [no draft

then,] and so they thought they needed some kind of experienced manager

people to go in there, and be involved with recruiting. I said, "Go ahead and

do it." [laughter] So I did.

One morning, I woke up in Bloomington, Indiana, home of Indiana

University, with my little apartment and my little government car, and the

university there with all the opportunities of educational and social

opportunities. I thought, this is unbelievable! We were really successful at it,

and here again, you just treat people just like, "Here’s what we have to do.

You have to go out and talk to people, and don’t cost me a lot of extra

paperwork and don’t drink too much, and don’t try to make girlfriends with

the little high school girls." [laughter]

01-00:45:18

Berglund Sokolov: Behave yourself, right?

01-00:45:20

Voris: Yeah, and which [could be a] problem. So you did that, and a little

motivation, and it turned out; it really turned out really good. I thoroughly

enjoyed that, and as a matter of fact, I was so, well, into my later thirties at

that time, so I’d spent ten years. I tell people, "I lived on four continents,

fought a war, had two wives, all within a ten-year period." [laughter]

01-00:45:50

Berglund Sokolov: You covered some ground there.

01-00:45:52

Voris: Covered some ground in ten years. I met my wife Betty in Indianapolis at

that time and so we have a joke: I recruited her. We had married [while I

was in Indianapolis. And she was (and is) a strong, accomplished person].

01-00:46:06

Berglund Sokolov: You were a good salesman.

01-00:46:07

Voris: Yeah. I spent three years out there doing that kind of stuff, and a lot of

advertising. Started to get into Army advertising then. We had a

representative from the Army advertising agency that worked in our

recruiting headquarters in Indianapolis that the colonel ran.

01-00:46:28

Berglund Sokolov: Were those the "be all you can be" years?


01-00:46:30

Voris: That, yes. "Be all you can be."

01-00:46:37

Berglund Sokolov: That was a good ad campaign; I remember it.

01-00:46:39

Voris: It was a good ad campaign. Thank you for remembering that. I did that, that

was good. I enjoyed it and a lot of good social opportunities, and here, you

were in community. Here, you were in the community, and that’s where

suddenly, you wake up and there’s no barracks and there’s no PX [Post

Exchange], and you’re just in this small town.

01-00:47:07

Berglund Sokolov: You’re not ghettoized in a separate space.

01-00:47:09

Voris: You’re not ghettoized, and so with the job I had, because you’re running

around in your captain’s uniform and your ribbons and thin— and you kind

of represented the government to a lot of people. I had a couple of people

flip me the bird at IU [Indiana University], but that was about it. I met, once,

something with two or three activists, people that kind of politically

oriented, and they couldn’t get me to say anything that they wanted to hear.

So, but other than that, it was a good experience. A couple of the IU

professors that I had met, I’d come out and talk to their class; and the radio

station there in town, the guy, he had showed up two or three times

whenever we had a new thing to push. That was very good. Women in the

Army was starting to become a big deal then, and so we kind of seized on

that and talked about that.

I was in Bloomington during the period leading up to the Sesquicentennial in

1976, and they were madly trying to staff various musical groups and things.

Well, Indiana had a wonderful musical school, and we recruited four young

people out of there to be in one of those centennial bands and they were so

pleased, and it all was great and they liked that I did that. There was a lot of

interesting stuff going on at that time. That was a very good experience,

really good, and helped break the ghetto image, and dealing with people in

the small towns and the backwaters, and, "Oh, here, have a doughnut,"

[laughs] when you go into the little radio stations and they’d want to do an

interview, or you’d go into see the local mayor and to do a grip and grin,

[photo. My group won lots of awards].

01-00:49:18

Berglund Sokolov: You told me you always kept your second blouse?

01-00:49:20

Voris: Yes, a second blouse, which is a military shirt, now. I always had my Plan B

shirt, because somebody would give me, oh, a jelly doughnut, and [makes

sploik sound effect], [laughter] as that often happens to me, so, and what are


you going to do? You’re in the middle of nowhere and you’ve got to grip

and grin and somebody’s going to take your picture. I always had my second

blouse in the trunk in a little box that I carried around in case I needed it.

Forgot to put my brass on one day, my insignia, was horrified, but

fortunately, the Plan B shirt had all the stuff on it, so I was able to keep from

embarrassing. Important again, you’re kind of out on your own and you talk

to the colonel, and you know, he was in Indianapolis, and you’d go up and

see him. But we were successful, but it [could be a] brutal environment,

because you either were getting your numbers or you weren’t. We had two

colonels, lieutenant colonels, kill themselves.

01-00:50:16

Berglund Sokolov: Really.

01-00:50:17

Voris: Yes.

01-00:50:17

Berglund Sokolov: Because they weren’t getting their numbers?

01-00:50:19

Voris: Yes. One guy—

01-00:50:19

Berglund Sokolov: In recruitment?

01-00:50:21

Voris: In recruitment. The one guy was in Saint Louis, and his XO, executive

officer, walked in one morning—the guy’s brains were on the wall.

01-00:50:32

Berglund Sokolov: Oh, my gosh.

01-00:50:32

Voris: I know. Another guy—I remember the names and I won’t mention them—

was in Cincinnati, a personable guy—I met him at a couple of meetings—

and in his home, his wife, I don’t know what it was, started the car in the

garage and then opened the door, and so they died, but also, their children,

their two children, died of carbon monoxide poisoning. Now, that may have

been family driven, who knows, but just a tragic, tragic thing, but it was

tough.

01-00:51:11

Berglund Sokolov: Oh my goodness. But there were pressures around. It sounds kind of like a

cush gig, you’re out recruiting, but there were real pressures underneath it to

get the numbers and to meet those sales goals, essentially.

01-00:51:24

Voris: That’s right, and it was like any other tough sales environment. Either you

were successful or you weren’t, and if you weren’t, boy, there’s going to be


hell to pay. I was just really lucky to be in an area where people were

available and had good folks working for it. But you had the same thing with

your sergeants. Some of them weren’t prepared for the job. Well, you do

what you could, ease them out, and get people in, and sometimes it wasn’t

too pleasant. It was huge pressure and we got to know the brigadier from

Chicago that was in there, but it was kind of a strange thing. He was made

acquaintanceship with the advertising lady in Indianapolis that I knew, and

we kind of got to know them, and ended up that he was in Korea when we

were there, too, so that’s a different story. He was just tough, tough, tough as

nails, because it was live or die. Either you’re going to have an army or you

weren’t, because there wasn’t any draft. There wasn’t any draft.

01-00:52:46

Berglund Sokolov: So then you go from Indianapolis—what’s the next stop in your career?

01-00:52:52

Voris: To Korea, and was in the Second Infantry Division, which is up on the DMZ

[demilitarized zone]. You may have seen some things recently.

01-00:53:06

Berglund Sokolov: And this is long after the Korean War that you’re—but there’s still a military

presence in Korea.

01-00:53:12

Voris: Oh, yes. Still today. Yeah, but they’ve drawn back. But we were, here again,

the whole division, was cannon fodder, because you’re going to probably be

mostly destroyed within a few days, if they came down, because they come

in such numbers. You were a tripwire, really, is what you were.

01-00:53:31

Berglund Sokolov: What does that mean?

01-00:53:32

Voris: It means that you’re at least going to be able to slow them down a little bit. If

they do that, so, number one—this is my opinion—that you’re going to be

able to slow down, affect things. Plus, thousands of American soldiers are

going to be involved and going to be dying, and so then, that really commits

the country to doing something. Second Infantry Division, second to none.

We were up on the DMZ. And all the presidents go up there whenever they

come, too, and this time, the Donald [Trump] couldn’t make it over, so Vice

President Pence went; he was up on the DMZ a month or two ago. And then

they always go up there to North Korea and pull their chins, [laughs] take

the photos, and leave. I have a great story on that: I was there when Jimmy

Carter was there.

So, I got to Korea and I was supposed to go to one of the brigades and be a

personnel officer. I got there, and they said, "Hey, get your stuff; go outside

and get in that Jeep." I go, "What? I was supposed to go—" "No," they said.

Went outside. Well, the Jeep for chief of staff of the division was sitting


there with his driver, beautiful. He said, "Sir, you’re supposed to go with

me." I threw my stuff in the Jeep and so we went up there and interviewed

with this guy, [Colonel] John W. Nicholson, wonderful, wonderful soldier,

tough guy, and ended up being his secretary of the general staff, which was a

great opportunity, but also great pressure and a lot of stuff going on.

[Colonel Nicholson was Chief of Staff for the division.]

But General Grange then, who was the division commander, David E.

Grange, Junior, wonderful soldier and has a Ranger award named for him at

Fort Benning: David E. Grange for Excellence in Performance—so, he’s just

really an Army institution, and he was division commander there. I got to

know him and was in some meetings with him, and I was with General,

Colonel, now General Nicholson. He was full colonel at the time and got

promoted to brigadier, but he was a wonderful guy and a Vietnam hero and a

tough guy, but funny, really funny, some great stories. I spent a year there

and we worked like hell, but also just had to play pretty hard [laughter] to

keep up with my boss, and it was a great experience. It was a great

experience [and a real sense of purpose, service to the country].

01-00:56:25

Berglund Sokolov: That was mostly an administrative job, so it took you off of the DMZ and

put you in another capacity.

01-00:56:33

Voris: Well, yeah, we were in the division headquarters. We were just a few miles

behind the lines, but my job was, you were kind of the chief of staff’s,

Colonel Nicholson’s, administrator, if you will, and then you also had to

interact with the two brigadier generals that were in the headquarters and

plus the division commander. It was kind of high-cotton area; you’re always

walking on eggshells. There are some interesting stories there, but they don’t

apply here.

01-00:57:09

Berglund Sokolov: Tell me about how you got to the Presidio.

01-00:57:12

Voris: Well, so—

01-00:57:13

Berglund Sokolov: Because it’s right from here, right?

01-00:57:15

Voris: No, my time in Korea was up, and I had to stay. So, Colonel Nicholson calls

me and we’re both due to leave at the same time, because the Army turns

over, Barbara, assignments as much as possible in the summer, because the

kids finish the school year. You can move them, and they’ll be in the other

school in the fall. We were both due to leave in June. He calls me and he

says, "Well, Voris," says, "one of the two of us has got to stay an extra

month." I go, I said, "Well, I know how this is going to come down. What’s


going on?" He says, "Jimmy Carter’s coming over here, and one of us has

got to be here." I says, "It ain’t going to be me." [laughter] He says, "You

know we got to have somebody in the headquarters that kind of knows

where the buttons are and the levers, and knows General Grange, and you

know they have"—so I ended up spending thirteen months. But I was there

when Jimmy Carter came over, and also, just a wonderful experience.

01-00:58:24

Berglund Sokolov: Did you get to meet him?

01-00:58:26

Voris: Yes. A story on meeting Jimmy Carter: So, they always take them up to the

DMZ because they can look over in the distance and rub their chin,

[laughter] and pledge more money and support, and they get their picture

taken; they go, "Oh!" One of the brigadiers we had there, he brought the

whole Cabinet with him. I had breakfast with Secretary of the Army Brown

sitting at our little mess hall table. I forget who else was there. Secretary of

defense was there, I couldn’t remember who it was then, and secret service

were cleaning their guns on our pool table in the Officer’s Mess. The thing

was that also, in addition to Jimmy having his picture taken on the DMZ, he

didn’t really want to come to Korea but they convinced him he needed to.

This was just before the Iran thing.

01-00:59:32

Berglund Sokolov: The Hostage Crisis.

01-00:59:33

Voris: Yeah, so things were still kind of—but they said, "You really need to show,

Jimmy, that you’re not through." One of the things that he would come to,

but he would go running, and one of these brigadiers we had was kind of a

young guy. He had some issues a little later on, one of the "hired help,"

[laughs] but so, he was going to run. Jimmy was going to run with the

brigadier, and also, with Zbigniew Brzezinski, who was a runner, and he was

there, and they were all out in front of the division headquarters one morning

kind of laughing around, and off they go, and pictures. [laughs]

01-01:00:16

Berglund Sokolov: Oh, that’s so funny, and this was when jogging kind of came into vogue,

right? That it was like the new fitness activity.

01-01:00:22

Voris: Yeah, there’s Big, [Brauzzinsi’s nickname], running along with the

brigadier. [laughs]

01-01:00:25

Berglund Sokolov: Wow, and Brauzzins, and—

01-01:00:27

Voris: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was very cool. They come back in later on, so then it’s

time for Jimmy to go up to the DMZ and do the looking into the distance


thing, but he’s also going to stop at kind of a mountaintop fortress that, the

south Vietnamese so he could show solidarity with the South Koreans—I’m

sorry, South Koreans. People are going, "Well, weather could be kind of

sketchy, yeah." All the big shots, including General Grange, took off in their

cars, and they’re driving them, and Jimmy’s going to fly in, and so then he

takes off. Well, it gets fogged in! You’ve got all the big wheels standing

around scratching themselves on this mountaintop outpost and Jimmy can’t

land.

Jimmy comes back to Camp Casey, which was the division head. "Well,

who’s the ranking guy there?" I think, it’s me. [laughter] He’s coming, and

one of the clerks run in, said, "Sir, sir, the president’s walking up kind of the

little back walk into the back door of the general’s office!" I go, "My God." I

went running back there, and Carter’s kind of pulling on the door. Well, it

had just a little latch on it. Says, "You all sure believe in security here," and I

undid the latch and he came, and I’m standing in the room with the president

of the United States and myself, and a Secret Service guy who’s very

nervous—he’s kind of up on his feet—and one of the division clerks. I said,

"Mr. President." What do you say? He said, [imitating Carter’s manner of

speech] "What are you all doing?" [laughter] I said, "Well, I’m just here to

see if I can help you out." "You know, I couldn’t land; I couldn’t land

there!" We had a chat, and by then, they rounded up some colonel to come in

and talk to him. That was my experience with Jimmy Carter.

01-01:02:33

Berglund Sokolov: What was your impression of him from that?

01-01:02:36

Voris: Well, that was just a snapshot. He was personable and he realized there’d

been kind of a snafu, and he thought it was kind of funny, too. Because all

his cabinet and everybody’s standing on this mountaintop someplace.

01-01:02:49

Berglund Sokolov: Waiting for him.

01-01:02:50

Voris: Waiting for him, [laughs] and he couldn’t land there. That turned out to be

my Korea, kind of a high note. Had some interesting experiences there, and

then, and in the village life and with the division surgeon, Doc McCarty,

who lived in a hooch not too far. He did a lot of good stuff to help administer

to a lot of the local women that might need special care that wasn’t really

being provided by the Korean community, health assistance.

01-01:03:27

Berglund Sokolov: Or, Korean community?

01-01:03:29

Voris: Korean community. Because there was a lot of interaction with military, as

well, so he was great. He ended up coming to Presidio, as a matter of fact,


was a full colonel on the station here and I met him here. Came here; we had

a nice visit. That was a very good experience. Then I went to the Seventh

Infantry Division at Fort Ord, California, and lo and behold, who shows up

but my colonel. Colonel Nicholson, that I worked for in Korea, had been

promoted to brigadier and he came in as assistant division commander. I

knew him, and he took me out boating. He was a wonderful guy. It’s funny

how you kept running across people.

Then [it] became time for me to go somewhere, and well, Betty, my wife,

thought, well, this is pretty nice, and I says, "Well, maybe we can go to San

Francisco." I talked to the assignment people because I kind of knew where

things were headed for me at the time. Barbara, here again, I was older. I

was really at the top end of the ranges, and I was just glad I was still there.

They’d had another reduction in forces, that type of thing, so assignment

people said, "Well, there’s just no way we’re going to send you to Presidio.

Everybody wants to go there." But the General Grange, he’d gotten his third

star and he was assigned here as the commander. Who knew? I had a chance

to communicate with him at one time. I said, "You know I’m due for

reassignment, and I’ve done a couple of infantry assignments and I’m due to

go back into my secondary thing, which is personnel and recruiting kind of

stuff; I don’t know." Lo and behold, [I was assigned to] the Recruiting and

Retention Division of Sixth Army, so that’s kind of how I ended up at the

Presidio. I was very fortunate from that standpoint.

01-01:05:44

Berglund Sokolov: Do you need to take a break? Do you want to take a break? You want to

keep going?

01-01:05:46

Voris: Yeah, if we could.

01-01:05:47

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah, sure, let’s take a break.



02-00:00:00

Berglund Sokolov: This is Presidio Trust Historian Barbara Berglund Sokolov interviewing

Stephen Voris on June—

02-00:00:11

Voris: Nineteenth.

02-00:00:12

Berglund Sokolov: —19th, thank you very much, 2017 in Moraga Hall at the Presidio of San

Francisco. Steve, this part of the interview, part two, will focus mostly on

your experience here at the Presidio. Would you mind starting with the story

of how you got here?

02-00:00:32

Voris: Okay. I was in Korea. This story starts in Korea. I was in the division

headquarters of the Second Infantry Division, which is up on the DMZ, and

the commanding general then was David E. Grange, Jr, one of the finest

soldiers I've ever met. He is the finest soldier I ever met. Been in three wars,

World War II and Korea and Vietnam, and is still with us. [In] any event, I

had a function in the division headquarters. I was secretary of the general

staff. So got to know him on a kind of professional basis. He left Korea

before I did by a couple of months and came to the States and he

subsequently was promoted to a third star, to a lieutenant general. I then

went to Seventh Infantry Division in Monterey. I was due for a reassignment

and I saw that General Grange had been assigned up here and they had a

vacancy in a position that I was qualified for and it turned out that I was

assigned here to the Presidio and it was a fine assignment.

02-00:02:00

Berglund Sokolov: Was it hard to get assignments here?

02-00:02:03

Voris: It was extremely hard to get assignments here. For one thing, there was just

relatively few officers here. It was a slot that was looked forward to for

assignment here and I felt very fortunate that it worked out for me.

02-00:02:24

Berglund Sokolov: What do you think was one of or were some of the key things that allowed

you to get the assignment here? That you were a good fit for this place or

your connection with the general?

02-00:02:39

Voris: Quite frankly, if you know someone, like any other phase of life or business,

that is in a position and they know you and there is a position open and

you're qualified for it, it doesn't hurt that you know that person. I'd kind of

just like to leave it at that.


02-00:03:00

Berglund Sokolov: Okay, that's fine. Tell us what years you were here.

02-00:03:05

Voris: Well, I was here from June of 1982 until June of 1987, [an] extremely long

tour of duty here. As kind of a preface, the 1980s were largely a period of

peace that the country was going through. We were back to more of a

traditional assignment period of three years as opposed to the one and two

years that was encountered during the war. That was a time for healing for

soldiers and families, as well as the Army itself, and kind of a recovery

period, if you will, and prior to the first Gulf War. More of a traditional

period in the ‘90s before the turn of the century.

Long story made short, it turned out to be a basic three-year tour. Betty and I

adapted quite well to the Bay Area. Took advantage of a lot of the things

here.

02-00:04:25

Berglund Had you—oh, I'm sorry.

02-00:04:26

Voris: Go right ahead.

02-00:04:28

Berglund Sokolov: Had you been here before your assignment?

02-00:04:30

Voris: Yes, because we were in Monterey. We had visited San Francisco on two or

three occasions. Gee, I think we'd driven through the Presidio a time or two.

I had at least a glancing knowledge of the place.

02-00:04:46

Berglund Sokolov: Can you recall any of your early first impressions or first memories of being

at the Presidio?

02-00:04:57

Voris: Well, when I first came here we lived on the Presidio and we were waiting

for our quarters, our house to become available because there was a lot of

demand. You come in the summer because that's when military families

moved. School was out in late May or June and then you'd move during the

summer. If you had kids they'd be starting in the fall in the new place. That's

under ideal circumstances.

02-00:05:27

Berglund Sokolov: You were with your wife?

02-00:05:29

Voris: I was with my wife, Betty. We had to wait about three months before our

place was available. We lived on Fort Scott on Kobbe Avenue. I lived in the

wooden barracks over here, building forty, for three months [waiting for our


house to be available] in a little barren room and then I'd go home [to

Monterey] on weekends. I did that for my first three months here and was

largely car-less. We had a car and my wife had it. That was my first

exposure to the Presidio. Kind of before we met Barbara [for this interview],

I went to the archives and went through some older editions of the Star

Presidian, which was the newspaper here just for a little bit of a refresher. I

noticed one of them that had Ramblin’ Sam. Now, Ramblin’ Sam column

every month was questions for the soldiers that were here on what do you

think about the weather or what do you think about the promotion policy,

this type of thing. But one of them—

02-00:06:42

Berglund Sokolov: And he would interview—like go find—?

02-00:06:42

Voris: Yes.

02-00:06:44

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah. Like Question Man in the Chronicle.

02-00:06:43

Voris: Yes. They'd have their picture in there, the Sergeant Jones. Ramblin’ Sam in

this one issue I reviewed was asking, "Well, what would you improve at the

Presidio?" Everybody goes, "Nothing." [laughter] "This is great." Are you

kidding me? [laughter]

02-00:07:09

Berglund Sokolov: We know this is a place of natural beauty but why were people so positive

about being here as a military base?

02-00:07:21

Voris: Well, it's so different than the average military base, if you will, which are

very often in the south or the Midwest. I was at Fort Carson, Colorado,

which is a wonderful place at the foot of the Rockies. But most of them are

not really of particularly attractive locales. If you remember Beetle Bailey in

the comics, they often talk about Camp Swampy. Well, that's kind of the

image. Now, there was always effort to make things very livable for the

people there, make sure they had services and this type of thing. But if you

came from someplace in Georgia to the Presidio, looked pretty good, just

from the physical beauty and the weather and the fact that there was just this

wonderful city here to take advantage of.

02-00:08:22

Berglund Sokolov: Right, right. Bumping up against the gates.

02-00:08:23

Voris: That's right, that's right. Which was very unusual. Gave you the opportunity

for interaction, which was really valuable to me from both a social and an

educational standpoint, that wouldn't have been as readily available at other

bases. Because I at some point made a decision, "Look, well,"—and Betty


was involved with it. We do things together. If I was going to go to another

location I really needed to concentrate on military schooling that would put

me in a position for a position of increased responsibility when I left the

Presidio or I could say, "Well, I think I'll just pursue civilian education and

maybe we'll just retire in this area," because I was going to be retirement

eligible. We decided on the latter. We kind of decided, "We've gone far

enough." I really put my energies in that in my latter period here and the fact

that I was doing that and able to talk to some people. But I got an extended

tour of duty here and really was fully engrossed in education in the evenings

my last two years here, two-plus years.

02-00:09:51

Berglund Sokolov: That's when you were at Golden Gate University?

02-00:09:52

Voris: Golden Gate University, yeah. I was pedaling really hard for two-plus years

to kind of prepare myself for—

02-00:10:00

Berglund Sokolov: Life in the civilian world.

02-00:10:00

Voris: That's right.

02-00:10:02

Berglund Sokolov: What kind of work were you doing here?

02-00:10:04

Voris: Well, when I was here I was in Sixth Army headquarters and I was in DCS

PER, which is Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel. Under that was

recruiting and retention. Now, I'll say for one thing, what the Sixth Army did

was responsible for National Guard and Reserve coordination and training in

the twelve western states. So that was the job of the Sixth Army, was really

to coordinate with the Guard and Reserve units and give them assistance and

training assistance and this type of thing for the twelve western states. That's

what we were about. My particular element worked with recruiting and

retention because I had kind of a dual track thing. I had done that before with

the Army. That's what I was doing, what I was doing here.

02-00:11:05

Berglund Sokolov: You were a major at this time?

02-00:11:07

Voris: Yes. As I mentioned, when we came in I lived for three months in building

forty over here. But you can go down to the little washroom and look out the

window and it had this wonderful view.

02-00:11:20

Berglund Sokolov: Right. That kind of made up for the—


02-00:11:22

Voris: That's right. We ended up with our quarters. Our house, the Army calls it

quarters, was on Kobbe Avenue, 1310B Kobbe Avenue. It was a big duplex

and we were fortunate to be assigned those quarters. Kind of the rule of

thumb, Barbara, is that the older the quarters the better they were. The ones

on Fort Scott were built when Fort Scott was developed, this coastal artillery

place.

02-00:11:49

Berglund Sokolov: Right, 1912. Right.

02-00:11:52

Voris: Yes, big thick walls and a nice basement. We were very fortunate from that

standpoint.

02-00:11:59

Berglund Sokolov: You enjoyed the home that you had?

02-00:12:01

Voris: Yeah, enjoyed the home. We would fall asleep at night listening to the

foghorns and seeing the fog blowing in through the eucalyptus. We were

very, very fortunate. We knew that every day. But we worked very hard

when we were here. I'll say one thing. The Presidio was staffed by really

very professional people, both male and female officers. One way to look at

it, really paid their dues. Maybe two, some three tours of duty in Vietnam.

Really moving exceptional amounts over a period of years. It wasn't like it

was a backwater at all. It was very skilled and very qualified combat officers

here.

02-00:12:48

Berglund Sokolov: Was it mostly an administrative hub or were there trainings that went on, as

well?

02-00:12:52

Voris: It was administrative. It was administrative [for the most part].

02-00:12:54

Berglund Sokolov: Administrative.

02-00:12:56

Voris: Yeah. We were essentially, as I mentioned, kind of supervising and advising

the Army and National Guard. People were going out to their training and

meetings and that type of thing. But that was the purpose of it, to keep them.

It was political, particularly for the generals, in many respects because the

National Guard is really state militia. They worked closely with the

governors of the states but also here. There was a lot of political aspects to

the thing, as well. A look at the parking lot out there, you might notice some

old red flecks of paint on the parking lot. Well, the commanding general

always had a parking spot reserved for him. The deputy commander and any

second lieutenant had a parking spot there, too. But they had to cater to these


various two-star generals from the states, so there'd be a number of reserved

parking spaces just in case they would show up or they'd be invited here for

a meeting. You can still see some traces of the paint out there today so I

think that's pretty interesting.

02-00:14:05

Berglund Sokolov: What were the demographics like here? You mentioned people who had

really put in their time in terms of serving the country.

02-00:14:18

Voris: Yeah, that's for sure.

02-00:14:20

Berglund Sokolov: Men and women. The Army at this point was integrated. Did you get a feel

for that?

02-00:14:28

Voris: [Definitely. A major change in the military, all for the good.]

02-00:14:29

Berglund Sokolov: Was it racially mixed or pretty homogenous?

02-00:14:32

Voris: Yes, it was racially mixed. Yes, it was. My story as far as gender goes, had a

female major that worked for me. We were in the same department. She had

been in the WAC, the Women's Army Service Corps, before it was

integrated into the Army and she still had her little rug in her office with a

caduceus on it. She was very proud of that. When we read so much about

equal pay for equal work today, it wasn't an issue [even then in the Army].

02-00:15:11

Berglund Sokolov: Interesting.

02-00:15:13

Voris: She was getting the same money that a male would be for the same period of

time you were in service. It increased somewhat year-by-year, of course by

rank, but there was no difference in it. Only difference if you were an aviator

or some kind of special efforts, that there would be additional income. But

was very interchangeable from that standpoint [except for combat

assignments at that time].

02-00:15:37

Berglund Sokolov: Some of the ways that the military system worked for promotion was kind of

maybe gender blind and race blind, too, in some ways?

02-00:15:47

Voris: I think, yes, to degrees. Not near as it is today because so many more fields,

well, all fields have been opened up to women now. That wasn't the case at

the time. But a large number were, and particularly in kind of administrative


areas. I think from that standpoint the military was probably ahead of a lot of

parts of civilian society.

02-00:16:13

Berglund Sokolov: Can you kind of paint a picture for me of what the Presidio looked like in

those days. Were there lots of people in military uniforms milling around?

Was it bustling?

02-00:16:33

Voris: It was bustling and yes, there were a lot of people in military uniforms

milling around [laughter] because that's what we did. Well, not mill around

but we did wear a uniform. Yes, it was a very active post.

02-00:16:47

Berglund Sokolov: Was there kind of the rituals, the flag going up and the flag going down?

02-00:16:52

Voris: Oh, of course. Yes, yes.

02-00:16:55

Berglund Sokolov: Can you talk a little bit about those?

02-00:16:55

Voris: Reveille in the morning and Retreat in the evening with the ceremony at the

flagpole and revelry and retreat being sounded. Retreat in the evening you

would stop your car if you were on your way home or something and you

would get out and salute as the flag was being lowered. When the music was

stopped, that was it and you would go home. One of my favorite things was

Taps at eleven o'clock at night. Still very touching for me. Which is the time,

theoretically, if it was a troops barracks, then all lights had to go out at that

time. When Taps sounded then all the lights in the troop barracks have to go

off and everybody had to be asleep. ["Day is done."]

02-00:17:42

Berglund Sokolov: Did that sound every night?

02-00:17:44

Voris: Oh, every night. Every night.

02-00:17:46

Berglund Sokolov: Was it played by a musician?

02-00:17:48

Voris: Oh, no, it was recorded.

02-00:17:50

Berglund Sokolov: It was recorded by then.

02-00:17:51

Voris: Yes, and from the post headquarters, which was in building thirty-eight. If

you're the duty officer, then you had to make sure that happened. But it was


very touching to hear retreat sounding in the night and it was a dark night

and the fog blowing in and you could kind of—I would come down from

time-to-time and just listen to retreat, particularly after I got out of the Army.

You could almost feel kind of the history. We've talked about it. Some of the

earlier days and times at the Presidio. It was very touching and I liked that a

lot. So, yes, we had all our formalities. This very room we're sitting in, a lot

of the formal military events and parties and balls and meetings and that type

of thing [that I attended].

02-00:18:35

Berglund Sokolov: Can you tell us about some of your memories of those and the kind of

socializing that went on here or some of your favorite moments? Or most

memorable moments, favorite or not?

02-00:18:51

Voris: Well, I guess my first experience in this room, and this was a dining area and

the dining tables were setup. Betty and I met with our sponsors. You had

somebody assigned to you to kind of shepherd you around and help you

through the ins and outs, which was really nice. We had a meal with them

here. Up on the wall there there's a small little window where you can look

in and so they're telling the history of the place." You can go up here and see

the adobe bricks." We go, "Oh, wow." "You go up and push the button and

look in there." [laughter] That was my first experience to this room before I

took advantage of all the Presidio had to offer and the education and doing

the docent thing. That's why I'm in this little vest today. I'm a docent here at

the officer's club. I like that a lot. Learn a lot about the wonderful history

that's flowed through this place over the years. That was my first experience

here. And meals here. And then formal parties here.

02-00:20:08

Berglund Sokolov: Was this a regular hangout for you and other officers?

02-00:20:11

Voris: Well, there was a bar here that was frequented.

02-00:20:17

Berglund Sokolov: Is that the upstairs bar or the—

02-00:20:18

Voris: No, right down here where the classrooms are.

02-00:20:19

Berglund Sokolov: Right here. Okay. Yeah.

02-00:20:21

Voris: They've been put to a much better use. You had that and the lounge. But

honestly, when I was here, there were fewer junior officers here, who had a

tendency to maybe celebrate a little more frequently. Plus, the draw to

downtown. If you're at Fort Irwin or someplace, but here people would go

downtown more. You'd be here for after work for happy hours and that type


of thing and then maybe you'd come into dinner. Those places would kind of

roll up at that point in time in the evenings. I think on Friday evenings,

upstairs in the attic they had kind of a younger persons thing with disc

jockeys and so forth. I was going through the Star Presidian and noticed the

ad for that. But it wasn't really a raucous place by and large in my day.

02-00:21:27

Berglund Sokolov: Were there other places on the post that you remember for entertainment or

music or any kind of that stuff?

02-00:21:36

Voris: Really not. People would go downtown. Yeah. Now, the closest place that

was always entertaining was Liverpool Lil's, which is recently burnt down.

[laughter]

02-00:21:51

Berglund Sokolov: A loss for everybody.

02-00:21:53

Voris: A huge loss for everybody.

02-00:21:54

Berglund Sokolov: Local institution.

02-00:21:55

Voris: Yes. Liverpool Lil's was a great place for social interaction and was close to

the hospital. Hospital folk would come over in the evening, as well, so that

was quite lively. One block down the street was the Final Final. I don't know

if you’ve—well, a story on the Final Final is that Svetlana, the spy from the

Russian consulate, was down there and she was entertaining an FBI agent.

The only one ever to flip. She met him at the Final Final. Of course, he was

subsequently caught and is now vacationing compliments of the Army

forever in Fort Leavenworth or someplace. That's the history of the Final

Final.

02-00:22:44

Berglund Sokolov: Of the Final Final.

02-00:22:44

Voris: But there was real spy versus spy stuff going on and there were friendly

spies here. Recently, as you know, President Obama evicted a number of

Russian people here as a result of kind of escalating conflicts. I won't go into

that. Some from the San Francisco consulate were ejected. One of them was

the chef. Now, was he really the chef? [laughter] I don't think so. There was

a picture in the paper. They say, "Look at this wonderful food that Igor

prepared and now he's gone. What's to be done?" There was some of that

stuff going on for real life and some serious things. Not only here but up and

down the West Coast. At any event the consulate here has kind of a

checkered history in regards to that.


02-00:23:44

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah. And it sounds like, even with the story about the Final Final and

Liverpool Lil's and you mentioning people going downtown for

entertainment, that there was just a lot of fluidity between the city and the

post.

02-00:23:55

Voris: Oh, very much so. That was one of the wonderful things of it that Betty and I

enjoyed very much. Now, all military posts had really gone to some lengths

for educational opportunities and having college courses presented on

campus or on military base, rather. After work you could go and take your

college classes and kind of improve yourself. But here they did that, as well,

but I decided, "Well, I kind of want to pursue some education, get my MBA

in marketing." Golden Gate University downtown had evening classes.

That's their thing. But it was so convenient. Drive three or four miles and

take my classes. It was right here and you got to interact with civilians as

opposed to if you were taking classes on the military. That was great. I had a

really good friend that was an engineer at Bechtel and he was making a life

change and he wanted to take an MBA program in marketing and do some

things. It turned out that he's subsequently involved with private rockets,

sending stuff into—so he was a wonderful guy. He, thank God, drug me

through graduate level statistics, which I didn't think I was going to survive.

[laughter]

02-00:25:22

Berglund Sokolov: I didn't know they made you do that for an MBA in marketing. That's cruel

and unusual punishment.

02-00:25:28

Voris: It was indeed. I wasn't expecting it at all. Had a college friend that lived in

the Upper Haight area, so got some exposure to the Haight-Ashbury.

02-00:25:38

Berglund Sokolov: What was that like compared to your experiences elsewhere, your

experiences on the post?

02-00:25:44

Voris: Well, it was totally different. My friend said, "Stick with me. You'll be all

right." Because I had short hair at the time. The Haight, of course, was way

past its heyday and was becoming this kind of basically unpleasant place and

a lot of violence and drugs. But still had its kind of vestiges. So got some

exposure to that. That was just really stuff that if I was at a large military

base you wouldn't have had the opportunity to do that. You could kind of

interact and education and social standpoint. My wife Betty and went

through her college sorority and became involved with her college group

here. That opened some opportunities for her to meet people and became a

volunteer at the symphony. I did, too, subsequently. And neighborhood

association. We just kind of got involved more than you would at a larger

base. [Betty also became involved with the journalism group.]


02-00:26:51

Berglund Sokolov: What did you feel like the reception was by San Franciscans of you when

they found out that you were living on the Presidio and that you were a

military man?

02-00:27:05

Voris: That's a good question. I think there was a lot of like, "Well, what do you do

anyway? What happens anyway?" I just had some very interesting questions

asked of me over time.

02-00:27:24

Berglund Sokolov: Like what? What questions? Do you remember any of the questions that—

02-00:27:28

Voris: Yes. One time when the Presidio was kind of being refurbished and I'm

going down Kobbe Avenue and the house next to ours, which was a

colonel's house. We knew the fellow that lived there with his family, had a

large home and he had four children. Any event, they were refurbishing that.

As you know, the Presidio's anxious to lease out as many places as they can

to generate the income. They were having just by chance an open house. It

was being staffed by—there were women. It wasn't Presidio Trust. I don’t

know if it was Junior League or somebody. I went in and I was talking with

the lady there. Decided to look through the window. Said, "Yes, I lived just

right next door here." "Oh, my, my." We were talking, very pleasant, and

chatting away. I said, "Yes, in the back there, there's kind of a back alley

thing. There was a small back street," and that's where today the garages and

stuff are for the car. I said, "Yes, this is where we parked our car." She goes,

"Oh, you could have cars?" Like she was expecting an Army truck to pull up

in the morning and I go jump in that and bounce my way over.

02-00:28:53

Berglund Sokolov: Or you had your own Jeep or something. Right. [laughter]

02-00:28:55

Voris: That's right. [laughter] I said, "Well, yes, we did. If you were a good boy—"

02-00:29:02

Berglund Sokolov: Right, you could have a car.

02-00:29:03

Voris: —"you could have a car."

02-00:29:04

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah, that's interesting.

02-00:29:08

Voris: Yes. Last year I was making just a little talk at the Presidio Institute. I had

volunteered out there and they asked me to come out and talk to some people

kind of during lunch hour chats that they had once a month. There were a lot

of young people attending and, of course, I say young people, anybody


under forty's a young person. [laughter] But these were like really young

people, in their twenties. This one young woman goes, when I told them I'd

been stationed here, she said, "Well, where did you get your food?"

02-00:29:47

Berglund Sokolov: Where did you get your food?

02-00:29:48

Voris: Well, for one thing, there was an Army grocery store on the base, which was

called a commissary, and it's where the Sports Basement is now. If you go

into the Sports Basement now you'll still see they've retained, I think it's

wonderful, on the walls like dairy section. [laughter] This type of thing. That

was our grocery store.

02-00:30:11

Berglund Sokolov: Did they give you better prices than you would have—?

02-00:30:12

Voris: Yes.

02-00:30:14

Berglund Sokolov: So if you went to Marina Safeway you'd be paying a lot more money than if

you went to the commissary?

02-00:30:19

Voris: Yes. Yeah, it was a good deal. You didn't have your big loss leader sale

things but overall prices were less. That was a good thing. But if you wanted

to go down to the Marina Safeway, well, you could. You could go there and

get your food. [laughter]

02-00:30:36

Berglund Sokolov: Right. In your car.

02-00:30:36

Voris: In your car.

02-00:30:39

Berglund Sokolov: And could you? This is a question that you might have been asked before.

When did you need to be in uniform and when could you be in civilian

clothes?

02-00:30:48

Voris: Well, in many respects it was an 8:00 to 5:00 job. Like anybody else gets

home from work, you take off your work clothes and you get into your jeans

or whatever and that's what you did. My mother was out here in the business.

I've done Army stuff for a long time. She was out here. Said, "Well, Mom,

we'll probably go downtown to dinner tonight, a nice place I want to take

you." "Well, can you wear some [civilian clothes]." I says, "Mom, you know

I can wear some—of course I can wear civilians clothes." [laughter] Now, if

you're on a large military base and you're training or something, well, then,


no, you can't. There are restrictions. But by and large you can. But I found

that you get questions. Well, people just really don't know because the Army

was still, even in San Francisco, the Presidio, you go, "Oh, I don't know if

we really ought to go out there or not," although you could come out here

anytime.

02-00:31:55

Berglund Sokolov: But did people? Did you get many? I know there were people who worked

here as civilian workers but was it a place that you felt like people, regular

San Franciscans, would walk through or inhabit this space? Or was it more

of a boundary that the military was more comfortable going out to the city

than civilians were coming in?

02-00:32:20

Voris: Good question. The answer to that is yes. There was kind of a reluctance to

come—not a reluctance but kind of a like, "Well, we just really don't know."

Now, a lot of commuters and so forth would drive through here on their way

to the Bridge and that type of thing and I met visitors to the club. They'd go,

"Oh, I used to drive there, through all the time. I lived in Marin, or still. But

we just like never really stopped and this time—" There was a lot of that.

Now, I'm sure there were some people that took advantage to come out here

and kind of enjoy the natural scenery. By and large it was kind of a, "Oh,

well, we're really not sure." Although there was really good outreach with

the civilian community here. Dianne Feinstein was the mayor in San

Francisco the whole time I was here and she was big on interacting with the

Army. Army Day, birthday celebrations and this type. They had a dinner

here when I was going through the Star Presidian that she and General

Grange—and she was out here for the Army Day celebrations and this type

of thing. So interacted a lot. It wasn't like people weren't aware of the Army

and what was going on here and there was interaction particularly at the

higher levels and General Grange had some ready built entrée into the

civilian community, as you might—but just everyday folks really not so

much.

Now, the civilians that worked here, of course, they were familiar with what

the situation was. But there was definitely a difference. People have

commented on that. Even visitors to the club now that I talk to a lot. And go,

"Well, we just were never quite—"

02-00:34:12

Berglund Sokolov: Sure if they could come in or not.

02-00:34:14

Voris: Yes, that's right. That's right. Even though it was totally open. It was still

like, "Well, we just don't know." That was kind of a noticeable thing. I

valued the opportunity to get involved with the civilian community.

Probably one of the decisions that led me to decide, "Well, maybe we do

want to change careers." Which is a traumatic thing. I think maybe you went


through some of the same thing, Barbara. Because if you make the change,

well, suddenly you don't have a job. Suddenly you don't have a house. You

might still not have your spouse. Of course, I did. [Loyal Betty.]

02-00:34:57

Berglund Sokolov: The military provides a lot of security.

02-00:34:58

Voris: Sure. Sure. When you make the choice to cut the apron strings, well, that's

pretty big. Now, at some point things are structured that you don't have a

choice. But I still had some choices left for me. But we decided that's what

we wanted to do.

02-00:35:20

Berglund Sokolov: Then you decided to make your home here, as well.

02-00:35:23

Voris: Yes, we did. My one thing, we were talking about what we were going to do

and, rightly or wrongly, I said, "Betty," I said, "I'm not driving across

bridges. I'm just not going to. We're going to live in the city." Not making a

lot of money in the Army, we scraped our little stash together and we were

able to buy a place on Potrero Hill, which was one of the still affordable

areas of San Francisco at that time, still kind of semi-industrial. That worked

out well for us. I worked in the city and I commuted just a couple of miles

and enjoyed my business life a lot and took advantage of the Presidio the

whole time.

02-00:36:07

Berglund Sokolov: What would bring you back?

02-00:36:13

Voris: That's a good point.

02-00:36:15

Berglund Sokolov: What would you come back to participate in before the military left and you

had retired and were in the civilian workforce and living in Potrero Hill? But

you still had a connection here.

02-00:36:25

Voris: Well, I did. And that's a good question also. While the Army was still here,

well, of course, the commissary was open, the grocery store. You could

come out here and shop if you wanted to. That's where I got my food.

[laughter] The PX or post exchange, which was like our little Wal-Mart, was

here, too. You could go buy your basic clothing items and this type of thing

if you wanted to and your portable radios and this kind of stuff. That was a

draw at the time. I've always been a big person with dogs and always had a

couple of labs. They loved to play ball. I would bring them out here. Now,

there may be police waiting because I always would break the law. I'm sorry.

I always religiously cleaned up, cleaned up after. We knew where we could

go at Fort Scott, which was largely, particularly after the Army left and the


park police are out there. But that was about it. They thought it was their

backyard. I'd throw the balls and we'd run and play.

02-00:37:37

Berglund Sokolov: So they were off leash.

02-00:37:38

Voris: Everybody's tongue was hanging out. Off-leash. That was a big draw. We'd

bring the dogs out here. They loved that. I did, too. Just seriously the

comfort feel that I got coming on the Presidio. It looked like it looked then,

still looks today thanks to the preservation act, so buildings can't be changed

and there's no Ferris wheels out here or skyscrapers. Just a comfort thing,

like maybe when you go to an area that you're familiar with and it looks the

same and kind of feels the same. That's just a comfortable thing. So that's a

draw.

02-00:38:17

Berglund Sokolov: Because this was a home for you.

02-00:38:18

Voris: That was our home.

02-00:38:20

Berglund Sokolov: In some ways you were here probably longer than you were many of the

other places that you were stationed?

02-00:38:26

Voris: Oh, by far. By far. Yeah. That was a good thing. I'd go by our place where

we lived on Kobbe Avenue and by that time our place had been refurbished

and I went there while they were doing the refurbishing. I'm sure I was

violating all kinds of—we'd go in and talk to the guys. [laughter] Blame it on

the {inaudible}. And then my story on our old place where we lived. I was

driving by one day. Don't do it so much anymore. The fellow that was living

there then, I kind of stopped and was using the alleyway behind the place,

and talked to him. I said, "Well, I used to live here." His wife came out. She

had a couple of kids and she was kind of like—and I thought, "I don’t want

to think I'm creepy or something so I'll need to develop some credibility

here." I says, "So the kitchen, you've got two pantries. Isn't that great?" She

said, "Oh, yeah, that's right." [laughter] Upstairs we had a little dormer

room, upstairs, that visitors and kids used to love when they visited us. I

said, "Oh, and the little dormer room upstairs." She said, "Oh, well, our au

pair lives there now." [laughter] So times have changed a lot.

02-00:39:58

Berglund Sokolov: Times have changed. Are there things that you think that you want people to

know about the Presidio during the time that you lived here that you think

that people probably don’t know? You mentioned some of the questions

people asked you but are there other things?


02-00:40:18

Voris: That's a little bit difficult to answer. I just want to stress the people that were

here, it wasn't an old folks' home. It was a very active base. We had very

qualified people that were here. General Grange, the commanding officer,

David E. Grange, Jr., just a wonderful soldier. The Ranger Award, which is

special operator kind of stuff, is named after him. That's awarded at Fort

Benning, the David E. Grange Award. There were very skilled and talented

people here doing some important things. But, as I say, during that period of

time a little more relaxed environment.

02-00:41:08

Berglund Sokolov: Mostly because it was peacetime?

02-00:41:10

Voris: Because it was kind of a peacetime environment. Now, you still had your

people in harm's way as far as difficult overseas tours like Korea, where I'd

come back from.

02-00:41:20

Berglund Sokolov: Right. Cold War conflicts or non-conflicts but—?

02-00:41:21

Voris: Yeah. No conflict going on but it was some serious duty. Just day-to-day

duty in the military has its dangers and the recent example is the four sailors

that lost their life on the Navy ship. There was a lot of that going on. You

had training going on all the time and there's special operators who are doing

things. But by and large it was a healing period, the way I looked at it, kind

of from my perspective during that period of time for the military. But other

than that, people lived their lives just by and large. You had kids. You were

concerned about them for their schooling and education and training. The

military went to some pretty great lengths to provide opportunities here.

Maybe people don’t know about that so much. It was under the post

commander. The post commander is like the mayor. Ran the Presidio and the

Sixth Army was kind of like a rental unit that was here, a big one. There was

like the dependent youth authority which provided all kinds of opportunities

for young people to keep them occupied and families would be interested

and volunteer time. Summer activity is a huge—when I was going through

the Star Presidion there were like twenty-five activities one summer that you

could enroll your children for. Morale support activities that were going on

here. I'm starting to sound bureaucratic, I know, when I say that but it was all

kinds for soldiers and families to be involved. There was a theater group

here. It was all sports of all kinds that were run. Amateur sport things. In the

summer you'd have your softball league and your baseball league and

basketball in the winter. They provided tours. If you were a skier you could

go up to ski country. Betty and I went to, gees, Southern California a couple

of times. The place escapes my name now. Did some cross country skiing.

All through this morale support activity, so provided these opportunities for

the families here.


02-00:43:59

Berglund Sokolov: Did the military pay for your education, too?

02-00:44:04

Voris: I used the GI Bill.

02-00:44:05

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

02-00:44:07

Voris: Yeah, used all the vestiges of my GI Bill for that.

02-00:44:10

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah, that is wonderful.

02-00:44:11

Voris: It's probably the best government program, I think, just about ever. Is to

provide the opportunity. There was a lot provided in the way of this little

city, self-contained city here. I mentioned we had our grocery store, we had

our Wal-Mart, and, of course, we had full medical services. You had your

police, which were the military police. We even had a veterinary place here

in the old cavalry stables next to the archives.

02-00:44:48

Berglund Sokolov: And the pet cemetery.

02-00:44:50

Voris: Yeah, the pet cemetery was there. But they had the veterinary there. You

could take Fido in there. Military doing that out of, well, self-preservation

because they didn't want rabid dogs running around. [laughter] But also the

vets took care of like meat inspections. The veterinary corps was divided

into two groups. The meat inspectors always enlisted thinking they were

going to be taking care of Fido and doing sides of beef.

02-00:45:19

Berglund Sokolov: That's funny.

02-00:45:21

Voris: But in any event, so we had just really a full range of city services here.

02-00:45:26

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah, I think it's interesting that you called this kind of a little city, like a

city within a city.

02-00:45:30

Voris: Yeah. You'd be hard pressed to think of a service in San Francisco that you

didn't have here. We even had in the later stages, and reminded me when I

was going through the Star Presidian, a free food service, which people

were outraged. But lower ranking soldiers that came here with a family, and

they weren't eligible for military quarters, many of them.


02-00:45:57

Berglund Sokolov: So they were trying to live on an enlisted man's salary.

02-00:45:59

Voris: Trying to live here. Yes. Now, if you were single, then you could live in the

barracks and your food would be provided. But if you had a family and you

wanted to bring your family with you, then it was on your dime until you'd

qualify to be a career soldier and then eligible for government quarters.

There was a food bank here and the paper said it was, as far as they knew,

the only one in the military.

02-00:46:27

Berglund Sokolov: Interesting.

02-00:46:28

Voris: Refreshed my memory. People felt very bad about that. There was even that

level of thing. Of course, the full range of medical services. Yes, it was

really a city within a city.

02-00:46:50

Berglund Sokolov: Let me think about where to go next. Why don't we talk a little bit about how

the Presidio has changed for you and the things that it might have meant to

you as a soldier, as a home, and maybe some of the things that it means to

you now and maybe we can talk a little bit about your role at the Presidio

now.

02-00:47:21

Voris: Well, when I was here with the Army, and when we look at the history of the

Presidio, that information was made available in kind of a sketchy basis.

Now, if you wanted to be involved with Army historical group, I'm sure that

there were people that went into it in more depth. As a matter of fact, one of

the soldiers here was a full colonel and he was related to Armin World War

II. He was into history. But the average person that used this club, Barbara,

would know the history of it on a sketchy basis. That here's the adobe walls.

It goes back to early 1800s or before, and some of the history that came

through here. But that was about it really. El Polin Spring, well, we knew

that the Works Progress Administration had built a lot of the little fountains

and paving and that type of thing down there. But the history before that

wasn't really exposed until your colleagues did that. I guess the big change

that I enjoyed so much is learning the history of this place much more in

depth and kind of the waves that have come through here over the years,

really concentrate on them.

02-00:48:47

Berglund Sokolov: You're a docent for the Presidio Trust.

02-00:48:48

Voris: That's correct.


02-00:48:50

Berglund Sokolov: Mostly at the Officer's Club.

02-00:48:51

Voris: Yes.

02-00:48:52

Berglund Sokolov: The Heritage Program now. How did you decide that you wanted to continue

to be involved with the Presidio after it changed from an Army post to a

national park?

02-00:49:07

Voris: The way that evolved is, as I say, I came out here all the time. Every

weekend with my dogs and/or to do shopping or to kind of roam around, that

type of thing. I was out here all the time with my animals and I knew that

changes were being made. And, of course, that was in the paper and this type

of thing. With the trust. One day I was driving by building 103 and I saw a

little sign there or something before the bridge, I think. I think that was one

of the earliest programs that the trust had to kind of expose people to history.

So that stuck in my mind and then I got a little pamphlet in the mail that

talked about that. I'm not sure how I got on their mailing list. I came by and

looked at it. I thought this was really interesting and talked to the people

there. Jules from our staff was running that then. I talked with her. I thought,

"Well, this might be something I want to pursue." They were looking for

docents and I signed up for the thing and talked to some more people. I went

through the training and liked the people that I was going through the

training with, who were interested in the history of the place or history in

general. At that point I was retiring for a second time from business and so

kind of looking like, well, where do I want to invest my time and efforts

now. That kind of fit in with it. That was my starting point on the thing. I've

never regretted it at all and just meet wonderful people on the staff here and

also visitors. Just wonderful visitor stories that come through. There are

stories of the Army if they were in the Army or their civilian life or interest

in history. I started by just happenstance to see that there was a display

taking place and kind of pursued it from there.

02-00:51:23

Berglund Sokolov: Your docenting experience and your interactions with the public, are there

any examples or memorable incidents that you'd like to share about that or

general types of things that have happened that have either surprised you or

moved you in any kinds of ways?

02-00:51:43

Voris: Well, just really have had a lot of moving experiences since I've been doing

the docenting thing. I'm kind of maybe a little bit of a softy on that anyway.

But the first group, I guess, would be the military people that come through.

A lot of the other docents kind of tongue-in-cheek when they get a retired

military or not necessarily retired but a person that had been in the military

that will come through and say, "Well, go talk to that old guy over there."


02-00:52:13

Berglund Sokolov: He knows a thing or two.

02-00:52:14

Voris: Oh, the guys would spill out. A lot of time people weren't here for an

extended period of time and a lot of the note cards that people leave, on

comments, are so touching. One person remembered having Thanksgiving

dinner here one time and that was his sole experience. You would get notes

from people that were children. Said, "My father was at the Presidio and I

just wanted to come back and see where he had been." That goes on all the

time and all the time and maybe two months ago, three months ago, we had

a gentleman come in that had been in World War II. Not that many left

anymore. But he was still kind of a hearty guy and he was with his grandson

or granddaughter. Maybe great-grandson and grand—was going through the

Heritage Gallery with them and I talked to him. I thought, "This is very

touching." Here you've got two or three generations of people coming

through here and reliving memories. I get that all the time and that's always

good and refreshing. Almost all the memories, people's comments, Barbara,

are positive. Now, people have had bad experiences all the time but what

people remember when they come through here, or what they express in any

event, is usually a positive thing. Which is nice. There are people,

particularly in this area, that have had bad memories or bad exposure or bad

thoughts maybe by social interaction, whatever, from the military. That's a

realistic thing and we acknowledge that and our displays acknowledge that.

02-00:54:10

Berglund Sokolov: Right. It's a place where a lot of tough history was happened.

02-00:54:13

Voris: Very much so.

02-00:54:14

Berglund Sokolov: It's not the only history that's happened here but it's part and parcel of being

a former military post.

02-00:54:20

Voris: Yes. We never try to gloss that over. I think by the nature of the place and by

the mission statement that we have, it's to present this place as it really was.

But it's not a negative presentation but we don't hide any of the facts from

people. There is some of that. It talks about in the Heritage Gallery the

problems during the Vietnam War with protestors here and the problems that

they had and that the military had and the conflicts. That's not hidden at all.

But a lot of the other interesting experiences, I think probably the most

touching for me was the Baby Lift that we had here. For people that don't

know about that, and many don't, it was at the end of the Vietnam War. Not

to go into a full-blown history on the thing but children, infants for the most

part, sent out from Vietnam that were orphans or were unattached, and just

before the collapse of the South Vietnamese government children were sent.

And they came through the Bay Area. These were children that subsequently


were adopted out to American families. But they came through the Presidio

and got some initial medical care and processing here. The trust, as you well

know, did a wonderful presentation on Baby Lift and it was in our Heritage

Gallery, our temporary exhibit space, talking about that and people that

would come through with their stories. Everything from people that had been

infants and Vietnamese Americans now and the stories that they had and the

memories. Which just really didn't register too much, I think, with me. The

fact that they were adopted. They still had a roots problem. How many of

them had gone to some lengths—and there's a procedure now to identify the

parents of these people. At any rate they had their stories and they had their

note cards and people that would come through with them and would be

talking. The Americans that were involved one way or another, civilians

here, tremendous involvement with that program. One woman that was very

touched and she was in the gallery and so she wanted to talk. We wouldn't

talk to them unless they wanted to talk. She had been a lap mother, which

means that when the plane from Vietnam would come in with these infants,

they would load people up on the buses to go to Oakland where the planes

landed and sit the child on their lap and bring them back here to the place

where the infants were being taken care of and then they'd be handed off to

the medical. That was her whole memory. But it was very touching for her.

She's going, "I wonder what happened." So many stories like that, and very

touching stories, and many people would be emotional. So just any number

of touching stories like that. Could go into a number of them. It was a very

interesting and very illuminating period. I wondered when that exhibit

started what the outcome would be. But it was just really good. Now, yes,

you had people that visited that were angry. "How could this happen?" Well,

that's a legitimate feeling. Or they'd leave note cards that said, "Well, the

United States should have never been involved and look what happened."

Well, maybe some truth there. But I would say if you kind of look at it, kind

of eighty/twenty with some people. Eighty percent of the time. I would say

that would probably be the split. But people would leave notes of all kinds

and it was presented in a light—look, here's a lot of the good things that

were done. Here's some that weren't so good. It elicited a lot of really honest

responses I guess you'd say.

02-00:58:52

Berglund Sokolov: Yeah. It was kind of an interesting way to get at the history of that period

that I think is still very unsettled in this country.

02-00:59:03

Voris: Yeah, it is. Just the way that a lot of times the military interacted with people

in Vietnam. A lot of little positive things that people aren't just aware of. So

we've got those stories, as well. That was very memorable. The exhibit that

we have now, the exclusion exhibit, talking about the incarceration of

Japanese Americans in World War II and how that completely went against

the Constitution of the United States but it was done and technically legally

and the impact that that's had on people. That's our ongoing exhibit now.


Once again, I thought, "Well, I'm just not sure how this is going to work

out." But it has been, I think, by and large a positive experience. The visitors

have very touching and interesting tales to talk about and one lady was in the

exhibit and she approached me. She says, "Well, I need to find out about this

one camp. I think it's Rohwer Camp." Or she said, "I want to see the Rohwer

Wall Four." I said, "Well, I'm not sure what that is." And I went down to our

windows where you'll have the names of all the people that were

incarcerated. It's an incredible thing. I can draw some similarities to the

Vietnam Memorial Wall in Washington, where the impact of seeing all these

names of all these dead people. These people aren't necessarily dead. I went

down and found that window, her window, and took her down to it. She was

still pretty sprightly. Escorted her down to it and she goes, "Oh, yes, there

are some of my cousins." She's looking at the names there. "That's very

interesting." We're walking back then towards the front of the building and I

need to make some conversation with her. She spoke perfect English. I

thought, "But it's kind of hard." I said something lame about, "Well, it must

have been awfully hot." Because she was in—

02-01:01:35

Berglund Sokolov: In Arkansas, right.

02-01:01:36

Voris: She was in Arizona. Her response was, "The snakes. We hated the snakes.

The snakes." I was just like totally, "What?" "The snakes." I got to

thinking—well, I didn't really elaborate. We met up with her group again.

I'm sorry I didn't get to talk to her again. Then her group left and I was

helping some other people. I got to thinking, "Well, this camp was built in

the Arizona desert. They cleared out sagebrush and they put up these

tarpaper buildings and moved. You had these wild things crawling in for

heat and food and that type of—but who would have thought about that.

02-01:02:25

Berglund Sokolov: Were these kind of interactions some of what motivates your ongoing

connection to the Presidio? What keeps bringing you back now that it's in

this new guise?

02-01:02:25

Voris: Well, it's one of the things that keeps things very interesting. You're always

looking to learn. I tell people obviously you need to learn something every

day. These exhibits sure give the opportunity. Just to interact with people

and not to be the stuffy tour guide or anything but just be there and say,

"Well, here's the exhibit, here's some information and let me know." I

learned so much from the exhibits and just from our permanent exhibits and

the history of the place and doing more with that in our internal tours and

special things that we're looking at, programs that we're looking at

developing. That's the kick for me and I enjoy it a lot. It keeps me active and

involved.


02-01:03:24

Berglund Sokolov: We started the interview kind of going through your long career in the

military and I'm wondering if you have any final reflections about that that

you'd like to share for younger generations or general posterity? Because

you had quite a career.

02-01:03:41

Voris: It was. It was during a tumultuous time. I guess the good thing is I don't

regret it. You make a conscious decision at some point, well, I'm going to

take this, taking your vital time of life and age, and say, "I'm going to invest

it in this as opposed to maybe doing some other things." I had my military

career and I had a business career and I looked back on the two and I did a

lot of things that are—little business thing that was satisfying and rewarding

in a little bit. That was good. But still the feeling that you get from my

military career. Now, maybe in these ages, maybe I'm kind of like creating

the environment I want to live in. But I just still get satisfaction. Well, I

know it probably sounds corny to a lot of people but I feel that I was serving

my country and I felt that that had a purpose and that there was value to it.

You really would think, "Well, these civilian people walking around here,

I'm actually going to help protect them if a situation comes up." Maybe you

end up being places and doing things. Nothing's ever black and white.

Nothing's ever black and white. But when I looked back on it, I still think it

served a purpose and I feel good about that. That's kind of the contrast

between the two careers that I've had and I was fortunate to have either one

of them, I think, and I'm very fortunate to end up here at the Presidio and

with a nice place to live and a nice job and a wonderful city and environment

to live in.

02-01:05:41

Berglund Sokolov: You continue to do service as a volunteer.

02-01:05:44

Voris: Yeah. Just almost serendipity that I was out here all the time and found out

about this program as it developed and I've kind of grown up with it, which

is really nice, and will continue to grow and expand and do things. I think

that's great. That's kind of where I am.

02-01:06:05

Berglund Sokolov: Wonderful. Before we wrap up are there any things that you'd like to add or

things that we didn't cover that we should spend a moment or two on?

02-01:06:15

Voris: I think we've covered the bases pretty well. I would just say that some of the

people that I worked for in the Army, just some wonderful, wonderful

people and we should be proud of a lot of the soldiers that we've got. Not

only the senior officers but the soldiers that are doing the job and the

sergeants, which really, in my experiences, you've got good sergeant and

taking care of your soldiers and everybody's had their training, they're the

ones that have to react when things are bad and get things done, either in a


peacetime environment or in a combat environment. They're the ones that

are taking the steps and the first things that have to be done. We've got

wonderful people in our military. We really do. Like anybody else,

everybody's human and has failings and things that need to be corrected. I

think trying to make some changes on things that need to be changed and

improved on but be happy that you've got this Army that you've got and

really the good people doing good things and making sacrifices. I guess

that's kind of the point that I want to emphasize on. Come to the Presidio and

visit it. A lot of wonderful history here.

02-01:07:43

Berglund Sokolov: Great, great. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Steve, for your time.

02-01:07:47

Voris: Thank you.

[End of Interview]

Narrator Addenda

Man in the Mirror

By some chance, as most of war is, we encountered what proved to be a headquarters element of

an enemy unit. Usually they are well protected by combat troops. So it was quick and very

violent. My other comments have been for the most part not violent, but this was. So there were

7–8 dead VC over about 10–15 yards. We were ready. All our guys were OK. And Tiny had

been right there. Tiny was always the guy that lugged around the machine gun. He was always a

big guy, so the name Tiny. His helper lugged the ammo can. Or two, depending. So he just hosed

them down. I was with that platoon at the time (a company commander and the little command

group usually went with one of your three rifle platoons). Jim Jarvis’ platoon. They had a pouch

with documents. I got the pouch, and went through it, called HQ and they would send out a

chopper to lower a bucket to get it. I could not read the papers of course, but there were map

overlays, for an attack on a firebase! Big stuff. Along withs this was a pouch of stuff the guy had,

personal. Some rice. and in a small pouch, a mirror. It belonged to the very dead guy about five

feet from me. I will just never forget. The mirror had frosted glass around the edge. Showing an

ideal home scene; a small hut, with palm trees on one side, I think palms on the other side. And

at the top, I clearly remember, small "v's" of flying birds. So when he looked into the mirror, as I

did then, he would be surrounded by visions if the "ideal" home! Same as us with the white

picket fence house would be the parallel I would draw. And so, I really thought of the humanity

of the guy, just the same as me, thinking of home. But still he would have done to me what was

done to him and not blink. But that mirror, I will never forget! I should have kept it, no intel

value. But I sent it back. Probably into the pocket of some intel evaluator, he is telling stories

about it today I bet! Then things got tough, as the enemy was angry, and wanted their stuff back.

And the helicopter got shot at, and hit. And my other two platoons and another company got into

some heavy stuff. For a couple of days. Shot a lot of artillery. They had RPG. But it ended OK

for us. No boys died. Told that it was probably a VC Brigade HQ element. Then it was over. But

I will never forget the mirror, and can see the man in it.


Freedom Bird

The Freedom Bird is the plane you come home on. For me, and most I think, was Evergreen

Airlines. A contractor. Crappy old first generation 707’s, maybe DC8. But God it was

wonderful! Sometimes guys would be in the field, in combat, up to three days before DEROS

[date of rotation overseas]. Just think! For me, I had a staff job for about 30 days before leaving,

but still a shock. We, me and 2–3 other guys I recall, got to the RepoDepo (Replacement Center,

I think it was called) about 48 hours before leaving. And the first think, we are taken to a storage

container and we are told to toss in our web gear, helmet, et cetera. We had turned in our rifles

earlier. That web belt, I had had it through thick and thin the whole time I was there, carried all

kinds of stuff on it, compass, canteen, first aid packs, grenade, stuff. I was strangely attached to

it, thought I would bring it home. But no, into the bin, that’s it. Good. Went through out

processing, forms, shots, more forms, orders, which I had received earlier. For Fort Carson,

Colorado. Got what I asked for, thanks to my First Sergeant. Miles. What a guy. Had me send in

my assignment request by registered mail! The order people he said, got stacks of requests. Lost

in the shuffle easily if you could not stand out. So guess what, the registered mail worked! I

thought Fort Carson sounded fine, mountains, snow. No jungle, no Georgia! First Sergeant Miles

also kept my death letters. "Top, you mail these if I don’t make it." "Don’t worry sir, I will make

sure." And I knew he would! In those days, the First Sergeant was usually at the Battalion rear

base, relatively safe except when he came out to the firebase. OK by me, he helped me plenty!

So anyway, after processing, part of which was to get a uniform to wear home! We wore Class B

uniform casual to come home, had to look OK to the civilians I think the Army thought. Which

was dress green slacks, dress black shoes, short sleeve shirt dress shirt with your stuff on it. And

a garrison cap. Which was (not used now), a collapsible soft cap, you see it in pictures, et cetera.

It also had a nickname, mostly not printable, which I will not use here, but some may recall.

Well, the uniform place has no officer garrison caps! And the stuff I wore over was long gone,

blown up, lost, who knows. So Catch 22, no hat, big delay! Really. So a couple of us go to the

PX. Well they have no commissioned officer garrison caps, but they do have Warrant Officer

caps! The only difference, the Warrant caps have a very narrow silver stitching around the top.

Commissioned Officer caps had gold stitching. Well, guess what, I wore a Warrant cap home

with my Captain bars attached. Dare anyone to say anything! The Army REMF did not say a

word. A REMF was a Rear Echelon M*****F*****. Spent their war inside the wire. Maybe

some rockets, that was the danger. Maybe guard duty on the wire. Maybe a nasty paper cut!

Needless to say, the combat folks did not think highly (to put it mildly) of them. Not fair in a

way, they were there, away from home, scared, bored, sick. Not in Canada. But we did not care

much.

So finally, the last stop, as I recall a large airplane hangar. We were at Tan Son Nhut, the major

US airbase in Vietnam. Final stamps, get some real US money for the scrip we had used. Then

the hangar doors open, and there it is! File on, get a seat. As I recall, a mostly segregated flight.

Officers and senior sergeants. Possibly so no trouble, but that was the last thought from the vast

majority of troops, Anyway, I got an aisle seat. And we were quickly taxi out, I am sure they did

not want to be on the ground any longer than necessary, a big target for rockets! And then we are

going down the runway. And I remember so clearly, how rough it was! Bam, bam, hitting

bumps, stuff squeaking inside. I was surprised, mad. What, our main base and such a runway?

And then thought at the same time, blow a tire with a full load of fuel, and we are all "crispy


critters"! Think going down some of our favorite SF streets at 150 MPH. Then less bumps, then

silence, except for the engines!

One, two, three seconds. Then a cheer starts, then everyone is yelling! We are alive and off this

goddam place, Freedom! The crappy plane is struggling to gain altitude as it burns off fuel, and I

am pressed back in the seat. So soft! Seems to wrap around you. Then I remember so much

thinking, "Boys, boys, I am gone now. I’m sorry! And take your goddam malaria pill"! (They

were huge, tasted just terrible if caught in your throat). Then I think we got 2 of the little booze

bottles, and water, etc. I got scotch! But that was all the alcohol allowed unless you could sweet

talk the stews. I remember the guy across the aisle opened a valise at his feet, rack of vials, asked

me if I wanted anything. Really? F you. I was shocked somehow, and just wanted to get home

intact. So, no thanks!

We stopped in Hawaii to refuel; I don’t remember at all. Then on to Travis Air Force Base just

up the way from SF! Then I felt I was back in the States! So then a van with 5–6 of us to SFO. I

dozed, woke up we were crossing a bridge. Asked the civilian driver, is this the Golden Gate

Bridge? He says no, the Bay Bridge. I clearly remember seeing Coit Tower, the only thing I

could associate with SF other than the GG Bridge. Then out at SFO, then I am really on my own,

in "civilian land"! Totally strange. people, women! walking about totally normally. Would look

and smile, or not. And the Moonies, remember? Thrusting a book at you for money, what, had a

good idea where I wanted to stuff their books. All so strange. No orders, lines, just Steve going

to find my gate, plane to Indiana! I think a beer with a couple of Army boys while waiting. I ate

a hot dog! But I mean so strange. Nobody knew or cared much where I was just 24 hours earlier!

No stink, no thumps in the distance, no taste of fear in your throat. No web gear. Pretty Girls in

pretty clothes, all manner of things and shops. Buy an actual newspaper, with a sports section.

Just surreal!

The Freedom Bird had gotten me physically home.

Documents

Oral History Center University of California The Bancroft ... · Steve Voris, 2017 . Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley iv Abstract Steven