Project Camelot Joseph Farrell Transcript

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Dr.JosephFarrell:NaziInternationalLaughlin,Nevada,February2009

IntroductionBillRyan(BR):...Soourjobistohelpyougetyourinformationout

tothemaximumamountofpeople.

JosephFarrell(JF):Okay.BR:Andthepeoplewhodowatchthisinformationareaveryeclecticbunch.We’vegot16-year-oldkidswho’vejustwokenuplastmonthsaying:What’sgoingonaroundhere?Tellme.Tellme.Andthenwe’vegotseasonedresearcherslikeyourself,andeveninsidersthemselves,whowatchourvideostogetafeelforwhat’sreallygoingon.JF:Okay.BR:Andso,oneofthereasonswhywewantedtotalktoyouwas



becauseyou’reaverycogent,lucidandarticulatepresenterofsomeverydifficultinformation.I’msureotherpeoplehavetoldyouthataswell,butwerecognizethat.JF:Okay.BR:Andweapologizeforputtingyouunderthecamerahere,totheextentthatyoudon’thaveyourslideslow.[Farrelllaughs].Youdon’thaveanypromptsandyoudon’thaveanynotes.JF:I’lldoshadows.[laughs]BR:Thefeelingwehadaboutyouisthatyouhaveaverygoodgraspofyourinformation,andwerespectthataswell.Soherewego.We’rerolling.StartofinterviewSo...I’mBillRyanfromProjectCamelot.I’mherewithmycolleagueKerryCassidyandwe’redelightedtoalsobeherewithJosephFarrell.AndoffcamerajustafewmomentsagoIcheckedthatitwasokaytocallyouJoe...JF:Oh,absolutely.BR:...‘causewe’reamongfriendshere,andthatmakesmefeelalittlebitmorerelaxed.Youmaybewondering,andsomeofourviewersmaybewonderinghowcomethisisBillherewho’sdoingthisinterview.Andjustasalittlebitofapersonalintroductionaboutmyself,andalsomaybetosomeofournewerviewers,I’m...IfweweretherealX-Files,IwouldactuallybeScully.[laughter]Okay?

Meaning,I’mtheonewho’sslightlymorescientific,slightlymoreskeptical,slightlymorecautious...JF:Right.BR:...andthisiswhy,betweenus,manypeoplefeel,andwefeelourselves,thatwemakequiteagoodteam.SoIhaveamathandphysicsbackground.JF:Okay.BR:Itendnottoleaptowildconclusions,butatthesametimeI’mveryhappytothinkoutofthebox...JF:Sure.BR:...asIstronglysuspectyoudoaswell.JF:Right.BR:Andoneofthereasonswhywereallywantedtotalktoyoubesides

theveryhighprofessionalqualityofyourpresentationonvariousinterviewsthatwelistenedto,toprepareourselvesforthis—isthatthepiecesofthejigsawthatyouhavecollectedthroughyourdiligentresearchseemtoustobeessentialunderstandingforanyonewhoreallywantstoknowwhat’sgoingontodayingeopolitics,intermsof“blackscience”,maybeevenintermsofglobalagenda,who’srunningtheshow,howitallstarted,whereitallstarted,andwhenitallstarted.JF:Okay.BR:Andforthebenefitofsomeofourviewerswhomaynotknowwhoyouare...

JF:Okay.[laughs]BR:...despitethatintroduction,giveusyourelevatorspeechabout:WhoisJoeFarrell?Andhowdidyoucometodowhatyou’redoingrightnow?JF:Well,CliffNotesversion:Myfatherwasanengineer,soIkindofgrewupinahouseholdwheresciencewasalwayskindofamainthingtobestressed,andI’vealwaysbeen,youknow,individuallyinterestedinit.ForquitealongperiodwhenIwasachild,andallthroughhighschoollateron,Iwantedtobeaphysicist.Andthen,my



senioryearIgotsenioritis,I’mafraid,andwimpedoutofcalculusandselectedmusictheoryasmyalternativestudy,but[laughs]thatprovedtobealmostasdifficult,ifnotmoreso.SoIwasalsoamusicianandIgotintomusic.AndthenwhenIwasincollegeItookphilosophyandthatdivertedmeevenfurtherawayfrommyoriginalgoal,intophilosophyandancienttexts.I’vealsoalwaysbeeninterestedinhistoryandancientthings,andmysteries,andsoonandsoforth.SoIdidmyPh.D.inEnglandandthentaughtcollegeforanumberofyears.BR:InOxford?WereyouinOxford?JF:No,no.Iwasn’taprofessoratallatOxford.IjustdidmyPh.D.there.IactuallytaughtcollegeinOklahoma.Itwasmostlyphilosophyandhistory,butIdiddoaninter-disciplinaryseminaratoneperiodoftime.Thatwasateam-taughtseminar,andthewaytheotherprofessorandIhadtokindofdivvyupthevariousdisciplinesthatweweretryingtopulltogether...Well,shewasabiologistsoshehandledcertainthings,andIgotphysicsbecausethat’salwaysbeenkindofahobbyeventhoughIabandonedtheprofessionalpursuitofit,so...Wealsodiscoveredwehadacommoninterest,asitwere,intheesotericandalternativethings,andIpresentedsomeofmyPyramidideastoherandshesays:Oh,you’vegottodothatfortheclass.SoIdiditfortheclassandtheykindofreallylikedit,muchtomy

surprise.AfterIquitcollegeteachingIdecided:Well,youknowImightaswellbitethebulletandwritesomeofmycrazyideasdown.Sothat’skindof[laughs]howIgotstartedinallofthis.That’showitcameabout.BR:Soyou’requiteapolymath.JF:Ah...Ihavealotofinterests.Yeah.Iwouldn’tsaypolymath,but,yeah,I’vegotabroadspectrumofinterests.[laughs]BR:You’vealreadyansweredoneofmyquestions,whichishowcomeitappearsevidentlythatyouhavesuchagraspofthephysicswhichyourresearchhasledyoutobeentangledwith,ifIcanusethatword.JF:Ohyeah.Well,whenIwasgrowingupIwasthequintessential

nerd.Imean,funformewhenIwasaboywasplayingwithmydaddy’ssliderule,youknow?[laughs]Sothatkindofgivesyoutheideaofwhatkindofperson...I’vealwaysbeenareaderandtothisdayIstillliketotryandfindphysicspapersonlineandpull’emupandread’em,andseewhat’sgoingon.Sothat’skindofwhatIam.BR:Wellgoodforyoubecauseitsoundslike,fromwhatwecangather,havingtalkedtomutualcolleaguessuchasRichardHoagland...JF:Right.BR:...andJimMarrs,whoweinterviewedjustthismorning,isthatyou’reprovidingarealserviceintheinformationchain,asitwere,intermsofprovidingresearchers—whoaretryingtheirbesttoassembleabigpicture—withsomespecificdrilled-downcomponentsthatyouseememinentlyqualifiedtohavestumbledacross.Orperhapsthat

soundstooclumsy.Actually,maybeyou’vebeengoingafterthemverydeliberatelyeversinceyourealizedthattherewassomethingtogoafter.JF:Maybe.BR:Doyouthinkthatthatiscorrect?JF:Maybesomewherebetweenthetwo.Oneofthethingsthatalwaysstruckme...Myacademicbackgroundisactuallyintheology,anditalwaysstruckmethatmanyofthemethodsthattheologiansuseareverysimilar,insomerespects,tomethodsthatphysicistsuse.Andthatmaysoundwildlycontradictorytowhatmostpeoplewouldthink.



Butinlookingatancienttexts,particularlyphilosophicaltexts,italwaysstruckmethatIwaslookingatakindofatopologicalmetaphorratherthanspecificallyametaphysicaltext.AndthefurtherIwentback,themoreapparentthatmetaphorbecame,tothepointthatitevenbecamepossibletonotatecertainconceptsintextwiththeactualnotationconventionsoftopology.SoIthought,well,youknow:That’skindofwild![laughs]SoIdidn’tshareit.DoingthePh.D.,Ididn’tsharethatideawithanybody,youknow.ButafterIquitcollegeteachingIbegantolookattextsthatway,andtosee...AndIhaddoneitprivately.I’mnotsayingthat,youknow,allofasuddenIdecidedtodothis.I’dbeendoingitprivatelyforanumberofyearsandkeepinglittlenotebooksofit.Butyeah.Itwaskindofhalf-accident,andkindofanon-goinginterest.Sosomewherebetweenthetwo.BR:Butthere’ssomethingthatmusthavegotyoustartedspecificallyonthetreasure-trailthatledyoutoputtingtogetheralotofthesub-jigsawthatwas:WhatweretheNazisreallydoingbeforeandduringWorldWarTwo...JF:Right.BR:...thatnobodyelseseemstohavereallyrealized?Whatwasitthatledyouinthatdirection?Whatwerethefirstthingsyoufound?

JF:Well,thethingthatalwaysstruckmethatIdon’tthinkhas...AndIdon’tevenincludemyselfinthiscategory.ThethingthathasalwaysstruckmeaboutwhatkindofresearchtheNazisweredoingis,ontheonehandyouhaveadefiniteesoteric,occultinfluenceandinterestthatmidwifestheNaziPartyintoexistence.YouhaveadefiniteesotericandoccultinfluenceatworkaftertheNazistakepower.And,youknow,oneofthethingsIliketopointoutisthattheNazi“State”withtheSSandHeinrichHimmler,whenhecreatestheAhnenerbeDienst,[ed.note:AhnenerbeService]theso-calledAncestralResearchBureau...IfyougototheNurembergTribunalsandpullupthebrief—youhaveto

kindofdigforitbutyoucaneventuallyfindit—it’sashortlittlestatement,declaration,thatestablishesthisthing.Butoneofthethingsthatheputsinasoneofthepurposesforthisdepartmentisthatitistoinvestigatealloftheseareasfortheirpotentialmilitaryapplication.Okay?Sowehavethatinfluenceatwork.Andthen,ontheotherhand,asyouknow,beingmathematicsandphysicsbackground,youhaveduringthatperiodof—oh,say1920uptoabout1931,’32—youhavethisspateofpublicationsinGermanyofvariousUnifiedFieldTheories:Kaluza,Einstein,Eddington,andsoonandsoforth.Soyouhavethatkindofscientificfermentatwork.AndthenofcourseyouaddGabrielKronintothemix,aHungarian

fellow,electricalengineerwhosays:Hey!Youknow,hewinsaprizeattheUniversityofLiègeinBelgiumforapaperinwhichhesays:Well,weelectricalengineersnoticealloftheseanomaliesinlargerotatingelectricalsystems,andwecanexplainthoseanomaliesbyappealingtothesehigher-dimensionalphysicsUnifiedFieldTheories.Soinotherwords,ifyoustopandthinkoftheimplicationsofwhathesaid,thetechnologyofelectricalcircuitry,circa1935,isproducinganomaliesonlyexplainablebythesehigher-dimensionalmathematical/physicstheories.He’stellingyou,inotherwords:Thesetheoriesareengineer-able.Theymaybeincompleteinthe



theoreticalsense,butthey’renonethelessengineer-abletheories.Andthat’sanimportantstatement.BR:Whichishighlysignificantbecausehe’smarryingtwototallydifferentworlds.JF:Ohyes.Absolutely.Yes.BR:Engineeringinthepractical;andtheabstruseinthemathematical.JF:Absolutely.Absolutely.Andyouknow,oneofthethingsthatstruckme...I’vejustacquiredsomeofKron’spapers.Iwentoutandboughtoneofhisbooks,alittleoldDoverbookpublication.Butwhathedoesis,hetakesthetensorcalculusandusesitasawayofanalyzingelectricalmachines.BR:NowthisisEinstein’stensorcalculusfromhis1928UnifiedFieldpaper?JF:Yeah.Thisis...Right.Andoneofthethingsspecificallythatyou’llnoticeinKron—althoughhedoesn’tcomerightoutandtellyou:I’mnowgoingtoshowyouhowtorsionworks—isheappealstothatveryconcept.Soyou’vegotthesetwoverydifferentthingsgoingonaskindofanintellectualfermentinGermanyatthetime.You’vegottheesotericandoccultinterest,andyouhavethisveryabstrusetheoreticalandengineeringinterest.Now,I’vealwayssuspectedthatthereissomesortofconnection

betweenthetwo.Andthisiskindofwhatgotmeinterestedinthewhole“Bell”story,becausethedepartmentoftheGermangovernmentthatisconductingallofthisveryexoticresearchispreciselytheSS.BR:Whatyeararewetalkingaboutnow?JF:That’sanothergoodquestion.theBellprojectitself,Ithinkyoucanmakeakindofacase,actuallyhasitsconceptualkindofproof-of-conceptstagebeginningsbeforetheNazistakepower,andmayhavebeenasearlyascirca1924and’25.BR:Thatearly!?JF:Thatearly.ThereasonthatIsaythatisinoneofmybooksIreproducethislittle,oh,kindofatwo-columnfillerarticlethat

ranintheFrankfurterAllgameineZeitung,Ithinkitwas,butitwaswrittenbynoneotherthanDr.WaltherGerlach.NowWaltherGerlach,youknow,he’soneofthemostfamousphysicistsatthattimeofhistory.He’saNobelPrizewinner,youknow...thefamousStern-Gerlachexperiment.Ithought:Wellwhoa!Becausewhathe’stalkingaboutinthisarticleisthepossibilityofthetransmutationofelements,specificallyinregardtomercury-to-gold,andhe’scallingita“newalchemy.”Andthatjustreallybroughtmeupshort.Becauseyouknow,thisis,numberone,beforethediscoveryofnuclearfissionbyOttoHahn.Okay?Sohe’sgotsomeverydifferentconceptinhishead.BR:He’sasmartguy,he‘snota...JF:[laughs]He’saverysmartguy!Yeah.Thisisnota

second-stringer,youknow.Andwhenheusesthiswordalchemy,it’scrystalclear.IevenreproducedtheoriginalGermanarticleandthentranslatedit,soyouknowthatI’mnotmakingthisstuffup,folks.BR:It’sthesamewordinGerman,isn’tit?JF:Ohyeah.Alchemy.Youcanseeitrightthereinanarticle.Sohewritesthisarticleandthen,it’sveryclear,hemakesakindofafinallittlestatement,that,youknow:Thisshouldbeinvestigatedfurtherandtodosoit’sgoingto—hint,hint—requirealotofmoney.[laughs]Sothisiskindofthetypicalscientist’sappealtothe



government.Allright?BR:Okay.JF:Well,thereasonIthinkthattheprojectmayhavebegunatthistimeisbecauseitispreciselyDr.WaltherGerlachwhoistheprojectheadoftheBellfortheNazis.BR:Okay.Now,Joe,IwonderifIcouldstopyouhere,becausewhatwe’vegothereiswe’vegotthefirsttenminutesofwhat’ssoundinglikeareallyinterestingmoviewhere[Farrelllaughs]noone’squitesurewhat’sgoingonhere...JF:Yeah.BR:...butthey’reinterested.JF:Okay.BR:Now,forourviewers,Okay?We’vetalkedaboutEinstein;tensorcalculus—somethingthatsoundsveryabstruselymathematicalthat...JF:Itis![laughs]BR:...noonewillunderstand;theNazis;andsomethingcalledtheBell.Sowhat’stheplot-linehere?Whyshouldanyone...JF:Payattentiontothis?BR:...careaboutthisextraordinarystory?JF:Allright.Verysimple.It’smybelief...JusttogiveyoukindofaveryshortCliffNotesanswer,it’smybelief,numberone,thattheNaziatombombprojectwassuccessful.Now,whatI’mgonnadoissimplyaskyourviewerstoacceptthataskindofa“given”forthe

sakeofargumentsothatIcankindofsetthecontext.Okay?IfyoulookattheprojectclassificationoftheBell,theNazisclassifieditaskriegsentscheidend—[ed.note:wardecisive].Inotherwords,withintheclassificationsystemoftheThirdReich,theBellwasclassifiedabsolutelyuniquelyandattheverypinnacleofthesystem,anditistheONLYprojectinNaziGermanytobegiventhatspecificclassification.Inotherwords,higherthantheatombomb.Okay?Soinotherwords,totheNazistheatombombis,youknow,alreadykindof“oldstuff.”[laughs]Okay?Sothatgivesanindicatorofwhatthesignificanceis.Butifyoulookatthephysicsthatthey’retryingtoinvestigate,Ibelievethey’reinvestigatingitforthreethings—forthepurposesofachievingthreethings.

Numberone,theywanttofreeGermanyfromenergydependenceonforeignpowersandforeignoil.So,inotherwords,they’reinvestigatingtheso-called“zeropoint”energy.Okay?Numbertwo,thesamesortofphysicstheyhaveseeniskindofagatewayorwindowintoadvancedfieldpropulsion,orantigravityifyouwanttocallitthat.Andthethirdthingofcourse,NazisbeingNazis,isthattheywanttoengineerthisphysicsforaweapon.Andofcoursewe’redealingnowwiththephysicsthat,again,canengineerthefabricofspace-time,locally.BR:Okay.Now,justonceagaintosummarizethisbeforewegointoevenmoredetail.

JF:Sure.BR:Whatyou’rereferringtohereis,you’vepickeduptheresearchlinethatwasstartedby...JF:IgorWitkowski.BR:...NickCookandIgorWitkowski.Thisthingthatseemstohavebeencalled...well,forlackofabetterwordTheNaziBell.Wedon’tknowwhattheycalledit,dowe?JF:Well,actuallytheydidcallitDieGlocke.BR:DieGlocke.JF:Andtheyhadanothernicknameforit:DerBienenstock—the



beehive...BR:Thebeehive.JF:...becauseofthesounditmade.ButoneoftheactualprojectcodenameswasProjektCronos,orProjectTime.Now,manypeopleleaptotheconclusionthatwell,they’retryingtobuildatimemachine.Well,no.That’s...Timeisinvolvedbecause,again,you’retryingtousetorsiontotapintotheabilitytomanipulatethefabricofspace-time.BR:What’storsion?JF:Allright.Torsion.ThewayIliketoillustrateitverysimplyis:Ifyoutakeasodacanandemptythesodaoutofitandthenwringitlikeadishrag,you’vegotthatcounter-rotatingmotion,andit’sgoingtospiralandfoldandpleatthatcan,andthendrawtheendsofthecanclosertogether.Sothatkindofismysimplisticillustrationofwhattorsiondoes.Andthecanitselfwouldrepresentspace-time,okay?Now,whatthey’redoing...Ithinkultimately,fortheNazis,thepurposeofthisistheywanttoweaponizeit.Andofcourse—andIsaythisoverandoveragaininmyinterviews—ifyou’redealingwithatechnologythathasthepotentialtoengineerspace-time,thatmeansthatifyouweaponizethat,potentiallyyouhaveaweaponthatwould

makeahydrogenbomblooklikeafirecracker.It’strulyplanet-bustingstuffifyou’vegottheproperengineeringbehinditand,youknow,developappropriatepowersystemsandsoon.Whichagain...oneandthesamethingwillleadtozero-pointenergy,sothere’syourpower,[laughs]youknow?BR:Andthere’resomeverysmartscientistsinthattime.JF:Ohyes!Absolutely.BR:Onemightactuallysay“theworld’sfinest”,wouldyousay?JF:Iwouldsayso.Andagain,youknow,thisiswhyIkindofprefacedmyremarksbymentioningtheatombomb,becausethekindofthepost-warAlliedlegend,asIliketocallit,isofcoursetheGermanswereabunchofnuclearbunglers,youknow.Andtheydidn’thaveenoughmanpower.Andtheydidn’thaveenoughmoney,youknow,and

allofthishappynonsensethatyouhearinthetextbooks.Well,tomethisstoryreallydoesn’tmakemuchsense.Andyou’reright.They’vegotHeisenberg.They’vegotHartek.Imean,thesepeoplearenotsecond-stringersatall.Soyeah,whattheGermansaredoing...AndIwanttoemphasizeheretheimportanceofwhyNazismwouldbetheideologicalcauldronforthis,becauseNazismofcoursehadbanned“Jewishphysics”.Inotherwords:Relativity.Andtheyevenhadideologicaldifficultieswithaspectsofquantummechanicsbecauseitwastoostatistical.Itwastooprobabilistic.Itwasn’tdeterministicenoughforsomeoftheNaziideologues.ButwhatisimpliedbythisinthestandardhistoryisthatwithinNaziGermanyyouhaveanabsolutestampingoutofthescientific

methodandadead-endingofphysics.ButIthinkifyoulooknow,ahundredyearsafterRelativity,weseepreciselythatphysicshasdead-ended.Wehavethiskindofdogmainplacenow.WhatIthinkNazismreallydidisitfreedthosepeopleinacertainwaytothinkoutsidethebox,andallofthatoutside-the-boxthinkingtookplaceinsidetheconfinesoftheSS.Andthesignaleventthatkicksallthisloosenowinmoderntimes—thereasonwe’refindingoutaboutit—ispreciselyGermanReunification.Why?BR:Right.



JF:BecausewhentheEasternZoneisbasicallyannexedinashotgunweddingbyWestGermany...andthat’sexactlyhowIwoulddescribeit.Whenthathappens,allofthoseoldSSinstallationsintheEasternZone—someofwhichtheSovietsdidn’tevengetinto,youknow.TheSSblew’emupandtheSovietsneverbotheredtogointothem.TheGermanswentbackinthereandlookedatallthisstuff,anditwasn’tshowinguponanyradarscreenconnectedwithrocketsorjetaircraftorpoisongas,youknow,anyoftheotherstuffthattheyweredoing.Andsotheybegantowonder:Well,what’sgoingonhere?AndthenofcourseIgorfindsthatverystrange“henge”-likestructurethereinLudwikowice,IthinkinPoland,whichusedtobeLudwigsdorf,andhe’swondering:Whatisthis?[laughs]Youknow?Whyisthishere?

Andofcoursethiskicksloosethespateofdeclassification.ThiskickslooseabunchofpeoplecomingforwardfromtheoldEasternZone,nowabletotalkaboutwhattheysaw,whattheyobserved.Sothishaskickedlooseafantasticamountofinformation.BR:It’sveryinterestingwhatyouaresayingaboutthe...Letmerephrasewhatyou’resaying:Thecrucibleofthestate’ssupportandthestate’sagendawasaperfectsupportsystemforascientistwhowantedthefundingandthemotivation...JF:Andtothinkoutsidethebox.BR:...andalltheresourcestogoandplaywithhistoysandtodo

whatallscientistsreallywanttodo,whichistoinventsomethingwild...JF:[laughs]Yes!Exactly!BR:...thatworks.JF:That’sexactlyright.BR:Andwhatsomeofourlistenerswillalreadybethinkingis,like...they’llbethinking:Waitaminute!Thisiswhat’shappeninginLosAlamosandHughesandSandiaandBellLabsrightnow.JF:Uhhuh!Yes.That’sright.Yes!BR:AtadifferenttimeandinadifferentReich—[Farrelllaughs]—whichiswhatJimMarrswouldsay.JF:Yeah.Iwouldn’thavemuchofanargumentwithhimeither![laughs]

BR:ButwhatIalsothinkyou’resaying,attheriskofputtingwordsintoyourmouth,isthatifwewanttounderstandthatstuffthatIjustmentioned,thenweneedtogobacktoexactlythispapertrailthatyou’vebeenfollowing,becausewhatwe’reseeingnowadaysistheprogenyofthat.Isthatcorrect?JF:Yeah.NaziGermanyis,youknow,it’sreallyaweirdstatewhenyouexaminethescientificimplicationsofitbecause...LetmegobacktothatSSdepartmentthatHimmlersetsup.Okay,you’regonnagooutthereandyou’regonnaresearchtheAryanheritage—ifwelookattheNazistateandwegobacktowhatHimmlersetsupwiththisdepartment—andhesays:Allright.GooutandinvestigatealloftheaspectsoftheancientAryanheritage.Butthemissionbriefisbroadenoughthathegivesthem.

BasicallyyouhaveadepartmentoftheNazistatecreatedspecificallyforthepurposetoinvestigatetheesoteric,theoccult,thehermetic,whateveryouwanttocallallofthisancientlore,okay?Forthespecificpurposeofmilitaryapplication.BR:ThisagainsoundseerilyreminiscentofwhatwehearcomingoutofcertainplacesinAmericarightnow.JF:Yeah!Right.Buthere,whatI’memphasizinghere,andwhatIwanttokindoftieintowhatyousaid,isthatthisisthefirsttimein



modernhistorythatamajorworldpowerhasinvestedseriousfinancialandpersonnelresourcestodothis.Andit’svery,veryclear,youknow,inNaziGermany’scase.Sowehavethiscauldron,thiscruciblethat,youknow...ItakekindofalmostdiametricallytheoppositetackthatastandardacademichistorianwouldgiveyouofthisAryanphysics.Weknowwhatthefailuresare.Imean,they’repalpable.They’reblatant.Butthereasonwedon’tknowaboutthesuccesses,andthereasonthatwe’reonlyhearingaboutthemnow,isnotonlyGermanReunificationbutpreciselybecausethatcruciblewasintheSS.Itwasallclassified.Itwasalsodeeplyblack.Butyeah,byfreeingthemfromso-called“Jewishphysics”,whatthey’rereallysayingis:Wewantyoutothinkoutsidethebox.Wewantyoutocomeupwithacompletelydifferentparadigmofphysics.Andifit’sengineer-able,[clapshands]godoit.BR:Okay.Now,interestinglyenough,justlastweekwespokewithPeterLevenda.Doyouknowhimandhiswork?JF:Ohyes.Yeah.IknowPeter.BR:Weweredelightedtotalkwithhimand,ofcourse,he’ssomebodywho...JF:Ohyes.BR:...isadocumentresearcherlikeyourself.Andhedescribedtous

howhewenttotheveryfamousarchivist,Dr.Wolfe...JF:Okay.Yes.BR:...whoshowedhimthearchivesoftheSSAhnenerbe.JF:Ohboy![laughs]BR:Andhiswordswerethathisjawdropped.Heneverknewsuchathingexisted.It’sreallyinterestingtousthatyou’vebeendownthatsamerabbit-hole.AndwhatI’dlovetoaskyouabout—ifthisdoesn’tdeviatefromyourthought-linehere—is:Whatistheconnectionbetweenthishard,butbrilliantandout-of-the-boxphysics,withtheoccult?JF:Ithink...Again,ifyougobacktotheremarksIbeganwith,Ithinkifyougofarenoughbackandlookatcertaintypesoftexts,forexample,theHermetica,okay?Andreadthemwithoutthestandard

academicapproachwithmetaphysicseyeglasseson,andreadthemratherasatopologist--asamathematician—wouldreadthesetexts,orasevenamaterialsengineer,youknow,mightreadthesetexts,whatpopsoutofthesethingsisaprofoundmetaphorofaphysicalmediumthatcreatesinformation,andthat’saverymodernidea.Infact,it’ssomodern,youknow,itstartspoppingupintheSovietUnioninthe1970sandbeginstokindofspreadfromthere.AllofthisstuffispoppingoutoftheSovietUnion.Soinotherwords,waybackwhen—ifwegobacktotheHermetica—herewe’redealingwithatextapproximately,ohgiveortake,youknow,2,000yearsold,soinotherswords...Butit’sanEgyptiantexteventhoughit’swritteninGreek.ItsprovenanceisclearlyEgyptian,

okay?Sothisisveryoldandyetitcontainsthisprofoundlysophisticatedphysicsmetaphor.That’swhatreallypoppedoutatme,youknow,whenIwasreadingthesetexts.Itwasn’tthatIwassupposedtobelookingandseeingPlatonicUniversals,youknow,thechair-of-all-chairsandthehorse-of-all-horses.No.Noneofthatwaswhatwaspoppingoutatme.WhatPlato’stalkingaboutistopology.He’stalkingaboutcommonsurfaceswithcommonforms,okay?SoI’mlookingatthis,andthenI’mlookingattheNazis,andthey’recomingupwiththesetheoriesessentiallyinthe’20sand’30sthatarelookingatthephysical



mediumasanengineer-ablereality.Inotherwords,inacertainsense,asaninformation-creatingmedium.So...Andagain,thekeytocreatingstableinformationisrotation,okay?Torsion,andsoonandsoforth.SoI’mthinking:Well,thisappearstobepreciselywhatweseegoingonwiththisBellproject.Theyaresomehowpursuingthisideaofphysics.Andoneofthethingsthatleaptoutatmethatkindofmadethisconnectionveryclearis...Inmybook,ThePhilosopher’sStone,Irefertoafellowbythenameof“Himmler’sRasputin”—ifyoucanimagine[laughs]HeinrichHimmlerhavingapersonalRasputin!Wellthisguy’snameisKarlMariaWiligut.Okay?Hehasanumberofaliasesthathewroteesoterictreatisesunder.Buthisbasicconceptionisthatthewholeuniversearisesoutofatensionbetweentwocounter-rotatingspiralswhichcreatethe“WorldEgg”.Okay?AndwhenIsawthatIthought:Ohboy!BecauseofcourseintheBell,youknow—whichIrationalizeasbasicallyakindofhyper-dimensionaltorsionphysicsdevice—you’vegotthesetwocounter-rotatingdrumsintowhichthey’reputtingthishigh-densityliquid,whichIthinkmayhaveevenincorporatedanisomerasoneofitscomponents.Andofcourseanisomerisoneofthesehigh-spinisotopes,thatifyoude-exciteit,itwillreleasemassiveamountsofenergy.Well,you’vegotthesetwocounter-rotatingdrums,andI’mthinking:Well,here’sthephysicsthatthey’redoing,andwe’vegotthesetwo

counter-rotatingthings.Andoverhere,Himmler’sRasputinissaying:Well,thisisallcomingoutoftwocounter-rotatingsystems.Youknow?SoIthink,clearly,youhadanideologicalcultureintheSSthat,ratherthaninhibitingscientificprogress,reallykindofforcedthemtopursueallofthishigher-dimensionalphysics.BR:Itactuallygavethemaninspirationalboost.JF:Yes.Yeah,exactly.And,youknow,thekindof...thefinalnailinthecoffin,asfarasI’mconcernedis,ifyoulookattheswastikaitself,youknow,andviewthatasnotsomuchthecorporatelogooftheNaziPartybutasanideogramofthiswholephysicsidea...BR:Itlookslikeavectordiagram.JF:Yeah.Itlookslikeavectordiagram.Exactly!Youknow,you’vegotasubsystemofrotation,you’vegotasubsystemofstress,andyou

throw‘emtogetherandtwistthatthing,andthere’syourparalleltransportsinthetensorcalculus...andvoila,youknow,[laughs]you’reonyourway.KerryCassidy(KC):Inasense,thatsymbolcameoutofIndia.JF:Ohsure.Yeah.KC:Theyactuallywentbacktotheoriginalmeaningofthesymbol,andpickeduponitbecauseitwassupposedtohavebeen...JF:Yes.Bingo.Bingo!Exactly!And,youknow,ifyoukindofcanimagineWaltherGerlachbeingchallenged,youknow.Let’sassumetheproject’sunderwaywhentheNazistakepower.Gerlachgothiswish.HegotfundingfromtheWeimargovernment,andhe’sdoinghisspinexperiments,okay?Hewasfascinatedwithspinandmagneticresonanceandgravitation,youknow.HecorrespondedwiththeAustrian

physicist,Thirring.Youknow,theLense-ThirringEffect.Satellitedragandallthis,youknow.Thiswashisbag.SoimaginetheNaziscominginandsaying:Well,ProfessorDoktorGerlach,we’regoingtoshutyourprojectdown.Itlookstoosuspicioustous.It’sdealinginareaswedon’twanttodealwith.It’snotpartofourideology.Well,allGerlachhastodoissay:HerrHimmler,it’srightthereonyourarmband.He’salreadysoldthem,inacertainsense![Billlaughs]Andyou’reright.BecausetheotherthingabouttheBellthatIshouldmentioninthiscontextwithIndiaisthatthisXerum525thatthey’re



puttinginsidethisdeviceandspinningup...Well,numberone,it’saliquid.Numbertwo,it’sofheavydensity.Numberthree,it’sofakindofamaroonish-violetcolor,okay?Veryheavy.SoI’mthinking:Aliquidmetal.Mercury.Soprobablymercuryisonething.Andthere’syourconnectiontoIndia.Becauseofcourseasyouknow,inthevimanatextsyouhavereferencestomercuryvortexes.And,justtokindofmakeafinalnailinthecoffin,mercury’skindofanidealcandidateifyou’regoingtouseplasmasinthisthing.Andagain,youknow,youhaveastrophysicistsinGermany—Houtermans—lookingatthesunthinking:Okay,we’vegotnuclearfusionupthere.Andthey’vealreadynoticedthesunrotatesbuttheplasmaisrotatingatdifferentvelocities,soyou’vegotthis“differentialrotation”theycallit,butthat’sjustafancywordfor,youknow,it’srotatingatdifferentvelocities.Andthey’reputtingallthistogetherinthisdevice.KC:Whataboutthevimanas?Youknow,whatwasinessenceflyingsaucerswaybackwhen?Doyouthinkthattheymighthavegottentheideathere?JF:Fromthoseancienttexts?Letmeputitthisway:Idon’tthinkit’sevennecessarytosaythatthatmighthavebeenamotivation.However,withinthecultureoftheSSthatisconductingthisresearch,you’regoingtohaveonedepartment,theAhnenerbe,readingthesetextsandtakingthemtothescientiststoanalyze.Andthescientistsaregoingtolookatthesethingsandsay:Oh,isn’tthat

interesting?BecauseoverhereProfessorDoctorGerlachhasbeenstudyingthis.HewonaNobelPrizeforexaminingaspectsofthistypeofphysics,andhe’sbeeninvestigatingandresearchingeversince.Andthey’reputtingthesetwothingstogether.Ithinkthat’swhat’shappeninginNaziGermany.They’redoingthefirstattempt,inacertainsense,togobackattheseancienttextsandsaytheycontainascientificmetaphor,andthereforeatechnology.Andwehavethesepapersnowthatwecanseethis.Let’stryandreconstructit.Thisisavitalthingbecausethatmeanstheyhavealsoseen—andthisis,again,apartofNaziideologicalbelief—thattherewasaverysophisticatedancientcivilization.Soinanothersensethen,yeah,they’retryingtoreconstructthisstuff.Inthatsensethey’rekind

ofaresurrectionofAtlantis.BR:Hmm.KC:ThenaretheylookingattheEgyptianpyramidsandtheSumerianseals…JF:They’relookingateverything.[laughs]KC:…andthey’regettingallkindsofclues.JF:Ohyeah!Absolutelytheyare,youknow…BR:Becauseatexactlythesametimeasthistheyweremountingexpeditionsallovertheworldtotryandgetholdof…JF:Ohyes.BR:…anythingtheycouldgetaholdof.JF:Ohyes.BR:Thatwouldgivethemcluestoallofthis,right?

JF:Well,inthisregard,thisideaofanancientcivilizationintryingtogetcluesintoit;you’refamiliarwiththe‘38-39SchaferexpeditiontoTibet.BR:Yes.JF:Okay.Well,Himmlerwasapersonalsponsorofthis.WhatIfindinterestingisthat,inspiteoftheheavyinfluenceoftheBritishRajinTibet,theNazisnotonlywereabletogainentryintothePotalafromtheregions.TheycameoutofTibetwithanentirecopy—asPeterLevenda’sresearchestablishes—anentirecopyoftheKangschur;thisancientTibetanepicwhichissupposedtobeaboutthisvery



sophisticatedancientcivilization.AndtheymakeitbacktoGermanywiththis.BR:Andtheyknewitsimportance.JF:Ohyesabsolutelytheydid,absolutelytheydid.KC:SosomeoftheirtechnologycouldhavecomefromTibetaswell?JF:Ithinksomeoftheirtechnologyhasto...Someoftheirthinkinghastocomefromlookingatthesetextsandlookingatalloftheseveryabstruseideasinphysicsandputtingthemtogetherbecausetheyfitsosnugglyatplacesattimesthatitreallyisastonishing.Youknow,Ididn’tdarewriteaboutanyofthiswhenIwasaprofessor.[laughs]That’swhyIwaituntilafterIgetoutofthere.NowI’llwriteitdown.BR:Theleastonecansayaboutitisthatthisisalltheworkofintuitivegenius.JF:Yes,I…BR:That’stheleastonecansay.JF:That’stheleastthatonecansay.Andagain,thefactthatwehaveanorganizeddepartmentofthegovernment—andasecretoneatthat—doingthis,thatmeansit’sorganized.BR:Yup!JF:Andthat,tome,impliesthat—asyou’reimplying—thattomeindicatesthatthereissomedeliberationbeingtakeninthinkingandrationalizingallofthisout.

BR:Okay.Nowletmejustdisposeofonequestionherethatourviewerswillwantmetoask.JF:Sure.[laughs]BR:Actually,andsecretly,Iwanttoaskitmyselftoo.ThisistheclaimedinferenceoftheVrilSociety;thoseyounggirlswhowerechanneling,remoteviewing,accessingclairvoyantinformation—whateveryouwanttocallit.JF:Okay.BR:That’sbeenmuchvaunted…JF:Yes.BR:…bytheoristswhoclaimthattheywereaccessinginformationthatmayhavecomefromotherrealmsorotherplanetsorwhatever.JF:Right.

BR:What’syourtakeonthat?JF:Idon’tbasemyanalysisoftheBellProject,oranythinglikethat,onchanneledinformationoronNeo-Nazisources.Myproblemwiththisstoryispreciselythosetwothings.Thatitcomes,firstofall,fromasourcethatisanecdotaland,secondly,thattheultimatesourcethat’sputtingitouthassomeveryshadykindofNeo-Nazities,okay?Andthere’snoothercorroborationofitotherthanthefactthatweknowthatsomethingcalledtheVrilSocietydidexist,andweknowitbecauseitwastheGermanrocketscientistWillyLeythatfirstmentioneditwhenhecameovertothiscountrytoescapetheNazis.

BR:Mm-hm.JF:Okay.Soweknowthatthatsocietyexisted.Wedon’tknowmuchaboutit.TheydidpublishasmallthinlittlebrochureinBerlinpriortothewar.Ihaven’tbeenabletogetaholdofit.Idon’tknowwhatit’scontentsare.So,asfarasI’mconcerned,thisisastorythat,numberone,haskindofasuspectoriginand,numbertwo,Ihaven’tbeenabletofindanythingotherthanthisstorytocorroboratethattheNazisweredoingthis.IdoknowthattheAhnenerbeisdoingresearchthatwewouldnowconsiderparanormalorpsychicorremoteviewingorwhathaveyou.



Certainlytheywere.Soyou’vegotageneralcontextinwhichsomethinglikethatmighthavetakenplace,buttheyareallegingthatthistookplacetowardtheend—infactinsomecasesduringWorldWarOneandtowardtheendofWorldWarOne—longbeforetheNazisareevenonthescene.BR:Ithoughtitwasinthetwenties.JF:No.Ithinkoneofthesewas1916andanotheronewasin19—andagain,Imaybemistaken—1919Ithink,closetoBerchtesgarten,whichisanotherunusuallittlecoincidence[laughs]inthisstory,but...KC:Butdidyouinvestigatetheremoteviewing,liketheoriginsofremoteviewing,intheNazi…JF:No,noIhaven’t.That’sanaspectofthestoryIthinkagainthatisgoingtocomeouteventually.Theproblemnowisgetting...TherearemassiveamountsofAhnenerbedocumentsintheUSnationalarchives,butmanyofthemarestillunavailable,sotheproblemisbeingabletotellacompletestory.Yousee,that’sthewholeproblemhere.It’snotthatIdon’tthinkthatthereisonebutrightnowallwehavewiththeVrilSocietyisakindofageneralkindofcorroborationofacontext.BR:Yes.Andpresumablyyou’realsosortofinvokingOccam’sRazorbysayingit’snotnecessaryto…JF:Togothere.BR:Iunderstandthat.

JF:Exactly.It’snotnecessarybecauseyouhaveanotheroccultinfluenceatworkalreadywithintheSSthathasaspecificallydetailedconceptualrelationshiptothephysicsbeinginvestigatedwiththeBellandthat’sthisguyWiligut.BR:Yeah.JF:Right.Soyoureallydon’tevenneedtogothere.Itwouldbekindofniceicingonthecake,youknow,iftheyfiguredout:Well,consciousnessplaysaroleinthistooandwe’regoingtoinvestigatethat.Wellifthey’rerationalizingthingstothatextent,yeah,thenwe’reinevendeepertrouble.[laughs]BR:Okay.Nowafterallthosefascinatingset-ups…JF:Okay.[laughs]BR:…ourviewershere,whoarethinkingthissoundslikeadetective

story;thissoundslikeColumbo...JF:OrabadOliverBmovie.[laughs]BR:WhatwastheBell?Whatweretheytryingtodo?Andwhatisknownwhatisnotknownwhatistheorizedandwhyisthisimportant?JF:Okay,letmegiveyouthebasicdatapointsandthenI’llgiveyouhowIkindofrationalizethem.MyrationalizationofitisabitdifferentthatIgorWitkowskiandNickCookalthoughIkindofbuildonsomeaspectsoftheiranalysis.Firstofallit’sadevice,it’sbellshaped,itstandsabouttwelvetofifteenfeethigh,ninetotwelvefeetwide.It’seithercasedinakindofaceramicmetalorjustplainoldceramic.It’sgotheavydutyelectricalportcable—electricalcablingports—aroundthedevice.

Insidethedevicetherearetwocounterrotatingdrums—andIwanttobeclearhere.ThedatathatwehavedoesnotspecifytheinternalconfigurationofthosedrumswithintheBell.Thesetwocounterrotatingdrumshada'serum'—thisXerum525Imentionedearlier—theheavymaroonish-red,probablymercury,compound.ItiscryogenicallycooledeitherbyliquidoxygenorliquidnitrogenanditisclosetoanelectricalpowerplantandsoundslikeabeehiveOkay?TheelectricalpowerplantiskindoftoputanhyperboleonitnearyardsawayfromtheinstallationsthattheBellisbeingtested



inallright?BR:Thekindofhumyougetfromahighvoltagegenerator.JF:Yes.Okay.Nowlet’sputallthesethings...Thosearethedatapoints,andthe…BR:Andthisisknownhow?JF:ThisisknownbyanSSgeneralbythenameofJakobSporrenbergwhowaspartofthisprojectbecausehewasthegeneralthatwastasked,attheendofthewar,togoinandmurdersixtyofthescientistsinvolvedwiththeproject.BR:Hm.JF:InotherwordstheNaziswanttokeepthisthingabsolutelyquiet.BR:Ididn’tknowthat.JF:Ohyeah,that’showallthiscomesout.He’striedforthatcrimebyaPolishWarCrimesTribunalbecause,ofcourse,PolandslidwestwardandtookoverpartsofPomeranianSilesiathatwereformerlyGermanprovinces.AndtheBellwastestedinthatpartofGermanythatthenbecamePolandafterthewar.SoPolandassumedjurisdictionoverthismanforthatcrimeandweknowitbytheaffidavitthathegaveatthatwarcrimestrial,okay?Butit’simportantagaintorealize,it’safterthecollapseoftheironcurtain,it’safterthecollapseoftheeastGermanstateandbasicallytheshotgunweddingthatwashadin1989,thatallofthis

comesout.Now,Sporrenbergalsodescribestheeffectofthedeviceonplants.Plantsexposedtothefieldofthisthingwhenitwasoperatingwoulddecaytoakindofabrownishgreygoowithinamatterofeitherhoursorweeks,thiswouldvary.BR:They’dcomeapart.JF:Yes.They’djustliterallyfallapart,justblugh,andtheywoulddosowithoutputrefaction.ThefirsttimeitwastestedapparentlytheGermanshadnotdonesomethingcorrectlyandsevenoftheoriginalscientistsoftheprojectwerekilledwhenitwastestedthefirsttime.Lateron,apparently,theylearnedhowtokindofcontrolsome

ofthesedeadlyeffectsalittlebitmorereasonably.Butthosearethedatapoints.Andonelittlefinalbitofinformation—afinalbitofdatapoint...Whenitwastestedundergroundithadtobetestedinaroomlinedwithceramicbricksoverwhichwereplacedrubbermats.Aftereachtestconcentrationcampvictimswouldcomein,removetherubbermats,burnthematsandthenscrubdowntheceramicbrickswithbrine—okay?Thathadtobedoneforsomereasonaftereachtest.BR:Radioactivity?JF:YesIthinkso,Ithinkso.Again...andI’mmentioningthatbecauseit’sacrucialdatapoint.Then,whenitwastestedoutside,itwastestedapparentlyinsidethishenge-likestructurethatisnear

allofthesestrangeinstallationswiththiselectricalpowerplantrightthere.Thishengestoodinakindofabasin—apool—itlookslike,thatwouldhavecontainedsomesortofliquid.Aroundtheperimeterofthispoolthereare...AndyoucanseethisontheHistoryChanneldocumentarywithNickCook.IgortakesNickdownintothisstructureandyoucanseetheseentryportsforallofthisheavydutyelectricalcabling,okay?Apparently,whentestedatnight,theseconcentrationcampinmates



describedthisbarrel-likethingthatwouldglowapaleblueglowanditwouldriseabovethetreelineandkindofsitthereandthenitwouldfallbackdown;lowerbackdown.Sothoseareourdatapoints.Idon’tthinkthatthedimensionsofthedevice,atthispointinmyresearch,arefunctionallysignificantsolet’sturntothecryogeniccooling,okay?We’redealingalreadyweknowwithadevicethatisusingthesetwocounterrotatingcylinders,andIsuspectthattheircentrifugeisotopetechnologyhadsomethingtodowiththis,becausethey’reusingultrahighmechanicalrotation.

Inotherwords,thisisaprecisionmachine,andit’sbeingcryogenicallycooled.AndthefirstthingthatIthinkofissuper-conductivity,youknow.Again,highspinsystem,littleresistance.It’sakindofaselfcontainedlittlebubbleofitsown...BR:Wassuperconductivityunderstoodinthephysicsofthattime?JF:Ohyeah.Sure.Thenthenextthingiswehavethismysterioussubstancewhichthey’reputtingintothesecylindersandspinningathighspeed.IthinkthatthepresenceofthispowerplantandthesoundoftheBell,asabeehive,indicatesthatthiswholethingwaselectricallypulsedwithextremelyhighvoltagedirectcurrentelectricity.Andthatthedrumsweresetup—andIgoragreeswithmehere;thisis

hisanalysisthatI’mborrowingfrom—thatyouhaveacathodeandananodeandthiswillarctothecentre.Andasthisstuffisspinningandcoheringalongthesameplaneofrotationandbeingpulsed,electricallypulsed,it’sgoingtodriveitinward,createlittleplasmoids,andyou’regoingtogetevenmorespinoutofthisthing.So,inotherwords,thewayI’mrationalizingthedevice,ultimately,istheyareattemptingtomaximizebyeverypossiblemeansthisextremetorsionsheareffect.Thisisexactlywhattheyaregoingafter.Theyaretryingtofigureoutiftheycanmanipulateandengineerthefabricofspace-time.BR:Withwhatend?JF:Towhatend,again,Ithinkthere’sthesethreepurposesinmind:theBellispartofa...Thedepartmentaloversight,let’ssay,ofthe

Bellisthreethings.First,youhavesomeattachmenttotheForschungInviclumInpatento,whichisasupersecretSSentitythatispullingeverypatentapplicationwithintheThirdReich,andlateroccupiedEurope,thathasnationalsecurityimplications.Numbertwo,it’sunderanentitycalledSSEntwicklungstellevierwhichmeansDevelopmentAreaFour.ThemissionbriefofthatdepartmentistomakeGermanyenergyindependentandit’sthatdepartmentthatyouhaveinvestigatingthingslikecontrolledfusion,zeropointenergy,andsoonandsoforth.Soit’sattachedtothatdepartment.Thenthefinaldepartmentthatit’sattachedtoisGeneralHansKammlerandhisthinktankdowninthePilsinCzechoslovakiainthe

ScotiaMunitionsWorks.AndthemissionbriefofthatdepartmentoftheSSistobrainstormitswayfromfirstgenerationtosecondandthirdandfourthgenerations—andhere’sthekey—toworkoutthenecessarystepsinthetechnologytree,togetfromonetotheother,andthentodoit.Okay?BR:Mm-hm.JF:SotheBellisconnectedwithallthesedepartmentsandwhatthissuggeststome,giventhephysicsinvolvedhere,isthatthey’retryingtocreateaprototypetechnology.AndIwanttoemphasizethis:



ThisthingisnotaUFO,itisnotitselfaweaponanditisnotitselfazeropointenergydevice.It’saprototypetechnology,oragatewaytechnology,thattheyareusingindevelopingtoinvestigateeachofthosethreeareas.ThatIthinkiswhatyouhavewiththisproject.ButIthinktheresultsweresignificantenoughtothem,by1944,thattheygiveitthisextremeclassification—kriegsentscheidend—wardecisive.Sothey’realreadyseeingthemilitarypotentialofthisthing.Thisisafieldpropulsionpotentialhereofjustextraordinarycapability.Andthisisaweaponpotentialhereofjustextraordinarycapability,butit’sakindofaunifiedtechnology.BR:Now...KC:Italsosoundslikeit’satimemachine.Imean,itsoundslikeit’screatingwhatJodieFosterentered,inasense,inContact.JF:Right.Iusetheterm“timedilation”here,andIdon’twantrelativisticassociations,butIdon’twantpeopletothinkthatthisisadevicethatcanbeusedasapracticaldevicefortimetravel—goingbackwardorforwardintothefuture.Butthefieldeffectshereonplants,Ithink,arekey.AndanotherthingIshouldmentionis:Ithinkoneofthepurposesofthis'Xerum'andtheuseofprobablysomeisotopeofmercuryand

nuclearisomerswaspreciselythefactthat,iftheywereabletoachieveaseveretimedilationeffect,thewayyou’regoingtotryandmeasureitispreciselybychangesinradioactivedecay,okay?BR:[inaudible]JF:Yes.SoIthinkthisisyetanotherreasonthey’respinningthisstuffupandpulsingit.It’skindofatoneandthesametimethefuelofthedeviceandthemeasurementofwhatthey’regettingoutofit.KC:Butisitpossible,twothings…JF:Mmhm.KC:…one,thatifinspinningwhichit’screatingaportal,inessence,it’screatingatorsionfieldaround…JF:Yes.It’screatingthis“twistedcan”effect.

KC:Butyou’resayingitaffectedplantsontheoutsideofit.JF:Yes.KC:Isthereanychancethatontheinsideyouwouldn’thavethesameeffect?JF:Goodquestion.Tomyknowledge—andIthinkIgorWitkowskiwouldprobablybackmeuphere.Tomyknowledgethereisnoevidencethatthisdevicewasconstructedinsuchawaythatyoucouldputpeopleintoit,orplantsoranimalsorwhathaveyouintothisdevice.Now,thatdoesn’tmeanthat...Let’sputourselvesintheNazishoesforamomentandkindofspeculate.Ifby,say1942/43whenitisveryclearfromthedocumentsthatIgorhasgathered,theyhavebeensuccessfulenoughwiththis

projecteventosplititintothephysicscomponentandthemedicalcomponent,okay?Whichindicates—Igorthinks(andIthinkthathe’squiterighthere)—thattheNazishavedecided:Okay.We’refarenoughalongweneedtolearnhowtolimittheeffectsofthisstuffonlivingbeings.Ifthisisthecase,thenthere’snothingtopreventtheNazisfrombuildingormodifyingthatmachine,buildinganotherone,sothattheycandopreciselythat.Andthatwouldbealogicalstepforthemtotake.But,asofyet,wedon’thaveanyhardevidencethattheydid



this.That’sallI’msaying.So,yes.Ithasafieldarounditwheretheeffectsarequitedeadly.BR:Now,asaleap…JF:Sure.BR:…andonethatsomeofourviewersmayalreadyhavebeenmaking.JF:Uh-huh.BR:If,tomirrorwhatyousaidatthestartofourconversationwhenyousaid:Well,let’sassumethattheGermanshavebeensuccessfulinestablishingsomedegreeofnuclearweapontechnology.JF:Right.BR:Let’ssupposethattheAmericanshaddonesomethingintheMontaukproject.JF:Okay.BR:Asit’spopularlybeen...JF:Portrayed.BR:...portrayedassomekindofaStarGatedevicethatinvolveshugeamountsofelectricalpower,alotoftrialanderrorexperimentation...JF:Uh-huh.BR:...andeventheidea,youknow—heavenforbid—thatchildrenpickedupoffthestreetswereusedasameansoftryingtopushthemintothisthingtoseeiftheywouldsurvivethejourney.JF:Right.BR:Isthisaridiculousleapinyourmindoristhissomethingthat

you’rewillingtoentertain,theoretically,thatthere’stheconnectionhere.Asthistechnology….JF:BetweentheBellandMontauk?BR:Well,yes.Imean...Because,asthisconversationcontinues,Iwantyourtakeonwhathappenedtothistechnologyafterthewar.ThesignificanceofKammler...JF:Right.BR:...andwhathappenedtohim.[Farrelllaughs]Whathappenedtothistechnologyandthedealsthatmayhavebeenmade?JF:Right.BR:…andwhoever,andwhereitisnow.Whathappenedtoit?JF:Okay.BR:Thisisnotthekindofthingthat’sjustabandoned,isita

failedproject?JF:No-no.[laughs]BR:Certainlynot.Therearetoomanysmartpeople...JF:Oh,yes!BR:...whoaretoointerestedinkeepingonplayingwiththisincredibletoy.JF:Okay,wellletmedispensewithMontauk.ThatisnotaprojectthatIhaveinvestigateddeeply,Okay?I’veinvestigatedenoughtoknowthatthere’salotof(ifIcanusetheexpression)wackystuffoutthereandIjustdon’twanttogothere.There’sbeenreallyonlyonegoodbookaboutit,inmyestimation,andIcan’tevenrecallthetitleofit.Fromsomeofthedescriptionsoftheproject:Yeah,itappearsthat

they’rekindofinvestigatingsimilarthings,butnotreally.SoIdon’tmakeaconnectionbetweentheBellandMontaukatallinmymindintuitively.Itjusthastoomany...it’sgottoomanyelementsliketheVrilsocietychannelingallthisinformationandthat’swherewearegettingthisscience.It’sgottoomuchofthatforme.ButasforwheredoestheBellgo.ThewayIkindofoutlineinmybooksitappearstomethatMartinBormannisthekeyfigurehere.AndineachandeverycasethatweseetheseGermanscientistssurrenderingtotheAllies,let’sgivetheexampleoftherocket



scientists,weintheUnitedStatesgetsortofthecrèmedelacrème,Okay?AstowheretheBellgoes.InmyopinionMartinBormannseestoitthattheAlliesandtheSovietUniongetmoreorlessanequaldivisionofthetechnologicalspoils.Heseestoit,accordingtomyresearch,thattheUnitedStatesgetscrucialatombombcomponents.FissileU235,infraredproximityfusesthatareanicehandythingtohavearoundwhenyouaretryingtodetonateplutoniumcores,allofthistechnologyheseestoitthattheUnitedStatesgets.HeseestoitthattheSovietUniongetsacrucialNaziscientistthathaddevelopedcertainisotopeenrichmenttechnologies.BR:Whowasthat?JF:BaronManfredfromArjona,who,ofcourse,usedcyclotronsandmassspectrometersjustlikeLawrencedidoverhere.SothisgoestotheSovietUnion—oops!—alongwiththecentrifugetechnology.Sohe’sseeingtoitthatallofthistechnologyisbeingequallydivided.Butifyou’regoingtohaveapostwar,extra-territorialNazistate,sotospeak,andit’sgoingtohaveorganization,andifyouaregoingtohaveanongoingresearchproject,there’stwothingsyoucan’thave:Youcan’thaveatombombsbecausethat’sgoingtorequirelargeenrichmentplants,ofcoursethat’sgoingtobeaneasytarget.Youcan’thavelargerocketgantriesyouaregoingtoneedaprojectthatistrulysensationalandwouldpaymassivedividendsandyetbeaprojectthatyoucouldmucheasierkeepsecret,okay?Andthat’sthe

Bell.BR:Okay.JF:Soinotherwords,whatI’mtellingyouis,theAlliesandtheSovietUniongetthejets,therockets,theinfraredsights,thecomputers,thesemi-conductorchips,youknow,allofthisstuff.ButtheprojectthatwasclassifiedwardecisivetheNazi’skeeptothemselves.InmyresearchIthinkthat,definitely,acasecanbemadethatthepostwarfusionprojectthatwastakingplaceinJuanPeron’sArgentina,isreallynothingmorethanacontinuationofcertainaspectsofthisBellproject.Inotherwords,withallofthoseNazislocatedinArgentina,including—asImakeacaseinmybooks—MartinBormannhimself.Youhavetheboss,inotherwords,rightthereinthe

areawherethissecretArgentineprojectisbeingconducted.So,inotherwords,Peronisnotreallytheonethatisincontrolofthis.It’sBormann.He’sthefinancier,okay?SoyouhavetheBellnotgoingtotheWest,notgoingtotheSovietUnion,youhaveitgoingtoArgentina.Now,youmentionedKammler...KC:I’msorry,butIhavetoask...JF:Sure.KC:Don’tyouthinkthere’saverygoodchancethatwhatwasgoingoninArgentinawasunderthepurviewoftheUnitedStates?BecausealotoftheheadNazisdidgototheUnitedStates,wouldn’tyousay?

JF:Well,thereareNazisthatgoherebuttheimportantones,no.AndthereasonIsaythatisthat...IfyougobacktomybookSSBrotherhoodoftheBell,IpickuponsomethingthatIgorWitkovskyveryexplicitlymentionsinhisbook,andthatisthatitappearsthattheUnitedStateswasdesperatelytryingtoreconstructthepersonnelteamoftheBell.Inotherwords,wedidn’tgetthepeople,andifwe’retryingtoreconstructthepersonnelteam,thatmeanswedidn’tgetthedocumentsfromtheprojectandprobablywedidn’tgetthedevice.



Ifwehadthedeviceweprobablywouldn’thaveneededmuchofthepersonnel.Sowereallydidn’tgetmuchofanything.I’veonlybeenabletoidentifytwoBellscientiststhatmadeittothiscountry.Onewas,incidentally,Dr.HubertusStrugholdwhowasinvolvedinthemedicalaspectoftheproject.TheotheronewasafellowbythenameofDr.KurtDebus.NowthisguyisaninterestingcharacterbecauseheapparentlywasoneofthesetopscientistsbecausehewasthemanthatdesignedthepowerplantfortheBell.Nowhere’swhyhe’ssignificant.IhaveapictureofhiminSSBrotherhoodoftheBellandhe’sstandingrightnexttoDr.WernherVonBraun[laughs]atNASAandyou’renoddingyourheadandsmiling,youknowwherethisisgoing!He’sstandingrightnexttoWernherVonBraunatNASA,andtheyarekindofpointingofftosomethinginthedistancelikethat,andhe’saseniorflightdirectorfortheApolloprogramatCapeCanaveral.Soinotherwords,asanadministrator,he’sgothishandsinalltheNASApies.Butthemanisn’tevenarocketscientist.He’sanelectricalengineer.BR:It’sreallyweird,isn’tit?JF:Well,it’ssoweird[laughs]togotherewhereyouwantmetogo.It’ssoweirdthatIhappentothinkthatthisindicatesthatthere’s

analternativetechnologyinplayhere.BR:Okay.JF:IntheApolloprogram.BR:Yup!Letmeinjectalittleanecdotethatmaymakeyousmile.Thisisapersonalanecdote,andIdon’teventhinkKerry’sheardthisone.MyfatherwasafacialrecognitionexpertwhoworkedwiththeBritishhomeoffice.JF:Okay.BR:He...Amongmanythings,heinventedPhotofit,thefacialrecognitionsystemusedtocatchcrooks.JF:Okay.BR:AndIdenti-kit,whichprecededit,wasanideathatwasstolenfromhim.

JF:Right.BR:AndeverynowandthentheBritishhomeofficewouldconsulthimwithaspecialrequest.AndIremembersittingaroundthekitchentable,inthe1970’swhenIwasinmymid-twenties,andmyfatherlookingatpicturesofMartinBormann…JF:[laughs]Ohboy.BR:…andhehadbeenapproachedbytheBritishhomeofficewhohadsomepicturesofanoldmanthathadbeensenttothemeitherfromBrazilorArgentina,andIcannotrememberwhich,(andmyfatherisnownolongerwithus)andmyfatherwasbeingtaskedtostatewhetherornotthisman,thathadbeenfoundinthe1970’s,wasMartinBormannandmyfathersaid:Yesitabsolutelywas.So,howaboutthatfora

littleanecdote?JF:Yeah,well.[laughs]I’vegotananecdoteofmyown.It’snotmypersonalanecdotebutImentioninmyNaziInternationalbookthattheCBSjournalistPaulManning,thatwasacloseassociateofEdMurrow,youknow,theveryfamousjournalistthatwasintheUKduringtheblitzandlateronTV.Well,Manningwroteabook.ThiswasafterLadislasFaragohadcomeoutwithhisbookaboutMartinBormann,theFourthReichandallthatstuff.WellManning,Ithink,inacertainsense,waskindofmiffed



atthewaytheyhadtreatedafellowjournalist,andhewroteabookcalledMartinBormann:NaziinExile.AndhebasicallyverifiedthatthedocumentsthatFaragohadusedinhisbookwerereal.Theywerelegit,okay?Wellhefoundsomethingelse.[laughs]HefoundthatMartinBormann—Ithinkaround1967—hadcashedacheck[laughs]atManufacturersHanoverandChaseManhattanBank.ItwasclearedthroughDeutscheBankinBuenosAiresinArgentina,andthecheckhadbeencashedoverhisownsignature.[laughs]BR:Incredible.[Farrelllaughs]Amazing.KC:Idon’tunderstand.Imean,youcanbackoffthelinkbetweenthis—Idon’tknowhowtosayhisname—theguyinFlorida…JF:Debus.KurtDebus.KC:…Debus.Okay,andBormann.Inotherwordsyou’re,inessence,sayingtheynolongerspoke?JF:Ohno,no,no!I’mnotbackingoffthatlinkatall.Quitethecontrary.No.I’mverymuchinagreementwithRichardHoaglandandMikeBarathat,youknow,inDarkMissiontheyoutlinedthecasethat,bythetimeoftheselateApollomissions,it’stheNazisthatarethemostsignificantinfluenceinsideofNASA.No,quitethecontrary.Infact,oneofthethingsItryandmentioninSSBrotherhoodofTheBell,isthatourearlymonitoringoftheseGermanscientists,thatwereoverhereaspartofourmissileprogram

andthentheearlyspaceprogram,discoveredthatthereseemedtobeasortofchainofcommandbetweenalloftheseNazisstillinexistence,andthattheyevenhadmaildrops.Andtheyweredrivingthesefancycarsandgettingmoneyfromthey-knew-not-where.Thatitwasn’tcomingfromaNASAscientistsalary.Theyweredrivingaround[laughs]intheseMercedescarsbutnothingwaseverdoneaboutit.That’s,tome,what’ssuspiciousbecauseyeah,thatclearlyindicatesthey’vegotsomeconnectiontothispostwarNaziorganization.Veryclearlyandverypalpably.KC:SowhataboutWernherVonBraun…JF:Uh-huh.KC:…whatabouthim,andthelinkwith…

JF:…withallofthis?KC:Yeah.WithDebus.Because,iftheyareworkingtogether,istheremorethanjustaworkingrelationship?Inotherwords,whatI’mtryingtofindoutis,wheredidhefitintothisechelon…JF:…tothispicture?Alright!Goodquestion.Idonot,inmybooks,speculateonwhatthatrelationshipmaybe.ButI'lldosoherebecauseIthinkit'sanexcellentquestion.IfyoulookatMr.HoaglandandMr.Bara’shypothesisinDarkMission,whatyouhaveultimatelyisatwo-trackspaceprogram.You’vegotonethat’soutthereforpublicconsumptionwiththerocketsand,youknow,allthefireworksandflag-waving,Momandapplepie.Andthenthereissomethingelse.It’slikeyou’redealingwithablackholeof

news.There’snewsstoriesarounditandthenthere’sthisbigblackholerightinthemiddlethat’sconspicuousforitsblackness,okay?Well,thislittlepictureofvonBraunandDebus,tome,issortoftheiconofwhatyou’reseeingwiththistwo-trackspaceprogram,becauseveryclearlythesetwomenareengagedinaprivateconversationthat’sbehindglass;they’rebothwearingtheirearphones.They’rebothkindofclosetoeachotherandthey’repointingoffinthedistancetosomething,okay?SoIthinkthisrelationshipgoesbacktoNaziGermanybecauseIdoknowthatDebuswasalsopartofvonBraun’steamatPeenemünde.Andwhathewasdoing



forvonBrauntherewas,hewasconstructingthemeasuringequipmentforthesestationaryrockettestgantriesthattheNazishadbuiltthere.Buthe’salsogotthisconnectiontotheBell.NowthisiswhyIfindthisquestioninteresting,becauseifyougointotheCooper-Cantwelldocuments(MAJIC12documents)—andI’mnotarguingfororagainsttheirauthenticity;I’msayingI’mlookingonlyattheinternalevidenceofthedocumentsthemselves—theykindofcorroboratethispicturebecausewhattheysuggestisthattheseNaziPapercliprocketscientistswerebroughtintolookatthisRoswellwreckage.Andthefirstquestionthatoccurstomymind:Well,whybringinNaziscientistsifyoususpectthisisET?You’regonnawanttokeepthatasclassifiedaspossiblefromyourformerenemy,okay?Butyoubring’eminbecauseitlooksGerman.AndvonBraun...Okay?You’vegotvonBraunandArthurRudolphandalltheseNaziscientistslookingatthisstuffandtheycomeupwiththisexplanationofwhatthisis.It’ssomesortofNeutronicenginewithfusionthat’stakingplace,andsoonandsoforth.Andthattellsmethatifthat’strue,thensomebody—ifit’sdisinformation—somebodyknowsthatDebusandvonBrauncommunicatedsomethingwaybackinNaziGermanyandthatvonBraunknewenoughaboutthisothersecretprojecttobeabletosaythattohisAmericaninterrogators.

Hence,wegobacktothatpicture.Whatthatpicturerepresentstomeisthatthistwo-trackspaceprogrambeginsinWorldWarTwoandinNaziGermany.Becausewhatdoyouhave?You’vegotrocketsthatareveryvisible.Andyou’vegotthisBellthingandallofthissecretstuffthatreallydoesn’tevencomeoutuntilafterGermanReunification.TheNazisareseeingtoitthattheSovietUnionandtheUnitedStatesgetthejetsandtherockets,butthey’rekeepingthistothemselves.BR:Ifthey’rekeepingittothemselves,whathavetheybeendoingwithitinthelast63years?JF:Excellentquestion.Becauseifyoucanimagine...Let’sjustgoback.You’vegotMartinBormannsittinginArgentina,withajointbankaccountwithJuanPeron,that’ssittingontopofalmosteight

hundredmilliondollars.That’saheftychunkofchangeatthatpointinhistory.Properlyinvested...andBormannwasafinancialwhiz.Imeanthere’snodoubtaboutthis.Heknewhowtomovemoneyandmakemoney.Properlyinvested,youcansustainthiskindofindependentproject,moveitaround.AtsomepointIthinkit’sgoingtorequireapartnerifit’sgonnabemadebigandpracticalandusable.Okay?Butyeah,in63yearsit’sveryfeasibletomethatthey’veworkedoutthemedicalbugs,youknow,thatyoucanputsomebodyinsideofoneofthesecontraptionsandflyitaround,okay?Yeah,it’sveryconceivablethatthiswouldbepossible.It’sconceivabletomethatatanevenearlierdateyoucouldtakeaspectsofthattechnologyandwedittomoreconventional

technologiestokindofboosttheirefficiency,sotospeak.ThisiswhyIthinkthatpictureofDebusandvonBraunatNASAisverytelling,becauseifDebusisinvolvedinApolloandinTheBell...Again,thattomepointstoanalternativetechnology,possibly.Thatandotherthings.I’mcertainlynotarguingthewholecaseonthat.Soyeah,in63yearswhatcouldtheydowiththis?Youknow,projectthelearningcurve.Youknow,tomeit’sveryfeasiblethemedicalissueshavebeensolved.Theymayhavebeenabletofindapracticalapplicationforfreeenergy.Butyouknow,here’sthebadnews:Onceagain,theymayhavebeenabletoweaponizethisstuff.Andthat,to



me,isthescariestpart.BR:ButifIunderstandyouright,you’resuggestingthere’sanisolatedgroupofNazis;maybetheirdescendents...JF:Right.BR:...somewhereinSouthAmerica,probablyArgentina...JF:Brazil,Chile...[laughs]Yeah.BR:Etcetera,yeah.Withaccesstothissalvagedandexportedexotictechnology...JF:Mm-hm.BR:...withcontinuedfundingandcontinuedprotectionfromsomewhere.JF:Somewhere.BR:Thataredoingwhat?They’renothavingtopaytheirelectricitybills?They’reflyingaround,lookingaround,andweaponizingitagainstwho?Thisdoesn’tseemtomakesenseonitsown.JF:Okay.Letmegiveyouacontext.Themodernfinancialmeltdown,tome,isasignthatthereisabreakdownoccurringbetweentheoldpostwardétente.AndwhatdoImeanbythat?ThefoundersoftheBilderbergGroupwereLawrenceandDavidRockefeller;aRothschildwasinvolved.ThatrepresentedkindoftheAnglo-Americancorporateinterest.ButontheEuropeanside,whoistheprincipalfounder?PrinceBernhardoftheNetherlands.Who’sPrinceBernhard?He’sanSS

officer.Andtherefore,ifyoustillhaveanextantpost-warNazichainofcommand,andwe’vealreadymentionedthatwedo...Ifyouhaveanextantpost-warNazichainofcommand,thenanSSofficerlikeBernhardanswerstohischief,whichisMartinBormann,whoholdsanSSfour-stargeneral’srank,okay?ButBernhardisalsoavicepresidentof—oh,looky-looky—IGFarben,okay?Which,incidentally,Iwanttopointout,IGFarbenwasonlyfinallycompletelyliquidatedinwhatyear?BR:Ihavenoidea.JF:2003.BR:Really!

JF:Yes.[laughs]BR:Okay.JF:Thiscorporationwassobigandsohuge,andalloftheselicensingagreementsthatithadallovertheworldwereinsuchatanglethatittookliterallythatlongtofinallygetridofthewholething.That’sanenormousamountofpower.KC:ButdidBormannreporttovonBraun?JF:No.VonBraunreported...Ifanyone’sreportinginthatchain,it’svonBraunreportingtoBormann.Okay?KC:Okay.JF:Butlet’sgetbacktoPrinceBernhard,becausepresentattheseearlyBilderbergermeetingsisaverysignificantfigure.It’sDr.HermannJosefAbs,whoistheCEOofDeutscheBank,oneoftheworld’s

largestinternationalbanks.Thebankthat,incidentally,clearedBormann’scheckinBuenosAiresthatwasdrawnonManufacturersHanoverandChaseManhattan;bigRockefellerbanks.MorganRockefellerinterests.Soputtingalloftheselittlepiecestogether,whatitlooksliketomeisthattheBilderbergergroup’sfirstsecretpurposeafterthewarwastotakeallofthisliquidcashthatissittinginthehandsofthesepost-warNazisandmoveitthroughtheseWesternbanks,makeitavailabletotheseWesternbankers.Andalotofit,Isuspect,was



evenkeptoffthebooks.They’relaunderingahugeamountofmoney,inotherwords.Now,here’stheproblem.Iliketosay—andIthankRichardHoaglandforthiskindofanalogybecausehecameoutwiththisoneataconferenceandIjustloveit:WithMartinBormannwe’redealingwithaDickCheneywithoutthewarmthandcharm.Soinotherwords,whenthey’renegotiatingthesedeals,youknow:Weagreewithyou.Corporatefascismisthewaytogoandwe’reagreedthatworlddominationiskindofacoolideaandwe’rewillingtoplayballwitheachother.Andhere’salotofmoneytodoit.[laughs]Youknow?Well,whenyou’redealingwithsomeonelikeBormann,you’redealingasIsaid,withDickCheneywithnowarmthandcharm.Thatmoneyisgoingtocomewithalotofstringsattached,andwhenthemarkerscomedueyou’dbetterbeabletopay.BR:Mm-hm.JF:Uh-huh.BR:Mm-hm.JF:Andif...withBormannyouhaveanintelligenceorganizationthatwasheadedupbyhisfriendHeinrichMuller,whomIalsobelieveescapedNaziGermany—theactualheadoftheGestapo—you’redealingwithpeoplethatcannotonlymakethreats,butcarrythemout,even

againsttheextremelywealthyandtheextremelypowerful.KC:ButtheUSwonthewar.JF:Sortof.KC:WhywouldtheUSlettheNazisgotoArgentina,withtheirblessing,withouthavingtheirhandsinthatpie?JF:Simple.Exactly.They’regottheirhandsinthatpie.KC:Okay.JF:AndBormann,asI’vesaid,hasnegotiated—again,thisisapartof...Iknowyou’reundertimeconstraints,soformetoanswerthatquestionI’dhavetokeepyouhere,okay,but...KC:We[overtalk]alittletimehere[laughs].JF:Well,basicallywhatwehavewithBormannisworkingoutadealtosurrenderalltheseatombombcomponentstotheUnitedStates.So

inotherwords,BormannalreadyhasacertainamountofmoralleverageovertheUnitedStates.HecouldeasilyexposethewholethingandexposetheUnitedStatesashavingmadeadealwiththedevil.It’skindofaclassicalMexicanstandoff.That’spartoftheproblemthatwe’refacedwith.Andagain,partofthisdealincludesallofthisGermanmilitaryintelligencethatgetskindofslidintotheCIA,youknow,butremainsoperationallyunderthecontroloftheverysameNazigeneralthatitwasincontrolofduringtheWorldWaritself.KC:[overtalk]BR:Andthere’sawholebunchofmindcontroltechnology.Wehaven’tevengonethere.

JF:Ohyes!Exactly!Imean,onandonthisgoes,youknow.Andformetherealpointis,isoncewemakethatdealwiththedevil,wesay:Okay,Martin(orwhoever),weneedyoutotakecareofsomebusinessandwedon’twanttosullyourlily-whiteAmericanhandswithit.Butweknowthatyouhavethepeoplewhocandothis.Sure.Butindoingthisdeal,anytimethathappens,youhavejustputyourselfinthepositiontobeblackmailedandthesepeoplewilldoit.Inotherwords,theycanexposeyouasbeinginvolvedinthese,youknow,sordidaffairsaroundtheworld.SoIthinkthewholeresult



ofthisdealwiththedevil...andIthinkwebegintorealizeitrightaroundthe1950swithEisenhower,becausewhat’shewarnagainstwhenheleavesoffice?Military-industrialcomplex.AndheknowsalloftheseNazis,okay?HeknowstheseNazisbecausehefoughtthem.AndIthinkthewarninghe’sgivingtheAmericanpeople,andforthatmatterTheWest,asamatteroffact,isnotsomuchagainstthehomegrownAmericanmilitary-industrialcomplex,butwho’sinfiltratingandweedingtheirwayintoallofthesepositionsofpowerandinfluencewithinit—namely,Nazis.Thisisavery...[searchingforwords]...I’msorrytobesoinarticulateherebecauseI’mtryingtoconnectalotofdotsveryquicklyforyou.Butyeah,Ithinktheultimatereasonis:they’vegotaguntotheAnglo-Americanelites’head.Andtobringituptomoderntimes,what...andagain,I’msimplyspeculatinghereinanswertoyourearlierquestion,butthebehaviorofthecorporateeliteatthebailouthearings,withthisbusinessofnooversight,andthekindofpronouncementscomingoutofmajorbankingleadersandfamiliesandgroupsandsoon,strikemeasnotbeingacted-outpanicbutgenuinepanic.AndasIgoaroundtheworldIseepanic,butit’snotnearthehysteriaandpitchthatitisinthiscountry,comingfromEurope.There’scertainlypanicinIceland,butitseemslikethefurthereastwego,thelesspanicandhysteriathereis.

Butit’sthisbailoutwithoutoversightideathatlookstome...That’sthekindofbehaviorofsomeonewho’sbeingblackmailedwithaguntotheirhead:Well,wewantalotofmoneybutwecan’ttellyouwhatit’sfor.BR:Thisisavery,veryinterestingthesis.JF:Yeah.It’sverysuspicious.NowtoputitinthecontextwithNazis,andIthinkthereason,perhaps,foryourquestionisthattheonlythingIseewithinthecontextofrecenthistoryinthelast60to70yearsthatcouldputthatextremelypowerfulAnglo-Americancorporatebankinginterestoreliteinthatkindofperil,ispreciselyanentitythathadenormousamountsofliquidcapitalthatitmovedintotheirbanksandleftthereforaverylongtimeaspartofthedeal:We’llgiveyouthismoney.Dowithitwhatyouwill.

Leaveusalone.BR:Isthistheresearchanglethatyouwouldliketofollowinthecomingmonthsasmoreinformationbecomesavailableaboutthecurrentcrisis?JF:I’mnotreallyaconspiracytheorist.Itouchonthesethingsonlywhenitseemslikethephysicsaspectsofitleadthere.ButIgetaskedthisquestionalot,soI’vekindofspeculated,youknow,reasonedoutthiskindofscenario.ButIcantellyouthis:I’mresearchingabook—writingabooknow—thatdealswith,Ihopeeffectively,deeply-seatedandrootedreasonsforthisverystrangeconnectionbetweenphysicsandfinancethatseemstopopupoverandoverandoveragain.AndI’llonlysaythis:It’sverydeeplyrootedandvery,veryold.

BR:Yes.That’sabeautifulthoughttoleavealotofpeopletoponder.JF:[laughs]Leavethemhanging.BR:SomethingthatPeterLevendamentionedbeautifullysuccinctlywhenwetalkedtohimlastweek.Hesaid:Look,thewholeworldcan’tgobroke.Someone’sgottohavethemoney.JF:Exactly.BR:Andsomethingthatseemsveryobvioustouswhenwe’reknockingthissubjectaroundbetweenus,isthatifyoulookatalltheblackprojects,allthemodern-dayequivalentsoftheBellexperiments,



wherevertheyare...JF:Wherevertheyare.BR:...onthisplanetorevenelsewhere,then,youknow,thisiscostingmoney.Andifyouthinkofmoneyasenergy,it’slikewhere...Youknow,thisenergyisbeingdrainedoutoftheglobalcircuit,andit’sgoingsomewhere.JF:Whereisitgoing?[laughs]BR:Yes.Whereisitgoing?WhichisanotherwayofreframingthesamequestionthatIbelieveyou’reasking.JF:Exactly!Exactly.BR:Now,justtodrawtogethersomeofthesestrings,andtherearealotofstrings.JF:Ohyes.[laughs]BR:AndIknowthatyoudon’tevenpretendthatthisistidy.JF:Ohno.Icertainlydon’t.[laughs]BR:Andit’salittlebitlikethesortof,youknow,out-takesafteramovie:Whathappenedtothischaracter?Whathappenedtothatcharacter?AreyouassumingthatHansKammlerendedupwhereverMartinBormannendedup?JF:Yes.BR:Okay.AreyouassumingthatthereasonwhytheNazisneveractuallyusedtheirarguablywell-developednucleartechnology...And

thisisanotherwholeinterviewtotalkabouttheevidenceofthat.JF:Sure.Ohyeah.[laughs]BR:Butwesupportyouinyourthesisthatitlookslikeitwasfarmoreadvancedthananyonehaspubliclygiventhemcreditfor.JF:Right.Right.BR:Buttheyneverusedit,eventhoughtheytesteditandtheyhaditforquiteafewyears.Wasthisbecausetheywereplanningtouseitasabargainingchiplater?JF:Possibly.ButIthinkyoucouldpossiblyalsomakeacase...Look,oneofthethings...I’mkindofamilitarystrategygamesbuff.Iplaythesethingsallthetime.It’smyentertainment,youknow.IdothislikepeoplewatchTVormovies,okay?AndyouknowaswellasIdothattheWehrmachtontheEasternFrontachievedthisjust

staggeringkillratioagainsttheRedArmy,againsttheRussians.BR:Yeah.MillionsofRedsoldiers.JF:HalfofthecasualtiesofWorldWarTwowereinflictedbytheNaziwarmachineonSovietRussia.BR:Yeah.AndyouknowIhadneverunderstoodhowsuchatinynationcouldgoupagainstalltheRussiansoldiers...JF:Andjustclobber...[laughing]BR:...andjustknock’emallout.Icouldjustneverunderstandthat.JF:Exactly.Andyouknow,frommyamateurmilitaryhistorianstandpoint,conventionalwisdomoroperationsherefailtoaccountforallofthis.Andincidentally,Russiarecently—Ithinkinthelastfew

years—disclosedthefactthatitsactualcasualtiesmayhavebeenasmuchastentofifteenmillionmorethanthat25millionwe’vebeentold.BR:Hm.JF:So,youknow,thistiny,bothersomelittlecountryisnotonlyfightingtheUnitedKingdom,andlaterontheUnitedStates,andvirtuallyeverybodyelse,butallofthattothemisjustkindofasideshow.ThisenormousmilitarycampaignistakingplaceontheEasternFrontand,tomymind,ascompetentandtacticallybrilliantastheGermanArmywas,thisdoesn’texplainitalltome.Sothere’s



somethingelsegoingonhere,and...KC:Doyouhaveatheory?JF:Yeah.Ohyeah.IwriteaboutitinmyfirstNazibook,ReichoftheBlackSun.TherearepersistentrumorsthatcomeoutofRussia,beginninginthewar,thattheNazisareusingsomethingontheEasternFrontthattheyarenotusingagainsttheWesternalliessimplybecause,ofcourse,theCommunists—theBolsheviks—aretheirideologicalenemies,youknow.So,yeah.They’resubhuman.Wecanuseallofthisgrislytechnologywehaveonthem.But...KC:Areyousuggestingbio-warfare?JF:No.I’msuggestingperhapsradiologicalbombs.Iamabsolutelycertainthatthey’reusingsomeprototypicalorfirst-generationfuel-airbombs.Andifyoudon’tknowwhatafuel-airbombis,that’saconventionalbombwiththeexplosivepunchofatacticalnuke.Now,I’llshow...andI’llgofurther.I’lltellyouhowthey’reusingthem.They’reusingtheminrocket-launchedmulti-barrelartillerybatteries.Soifyoucansaythephrasetacticalnukeandcarpetbombing,yougetanideaof,youknow,thiscarnagethatthey’reinflictingontheRedArmy.Andit’ssobadthatin1941duringthebattleforMoscowwhentheGermansaredoingthisstuff,theSoviets,throughSweden,telltheGermansthatiftheydon’tceaseanddesistthey’llstartusingpoisongas.Youknow,it’sthatbad.

BR:Buttherearealso...Imean,besidesthatfascinatinginductionfromthosecircumstances...JF:Right.BR:...thereareeyewitnessreports...JF:Ohyes.Absolutely.BR:...ofpeoplewhoreportsomethingthatlooksexactlylikeanuclearblast.JF:Yes.Exactly.Exactly.You’vegotallofthisstuffgoingonontheEasternFrontthatisinexplicablewithout,inmyopinion,theuseanddeploymentofalloftheseadvancedNaziweapons.Sothat’s,Ithink,whywedon’thearofit.Andafinalpointinthatrespectis,duringthewarStalin’sgovernmentisgoingtobeloathetoadmitthat

itisfacinganenemythatisthatmuchmoretechnologicallysuperior.BR:It’sembarrassingatleast.[laughs]JF:Attheveryleastit’sembarrassing.ButimagineintheRedArmywhenthemorale,withthisslaughter,thisblood-lettingthat’sgoingon,thatyouhavetohaveCommissarsliterallythreateningtoshootanyonewhodeserts,justtomaintainmoraleatsomeofthesebigbattles.IfStalinhadadmittedthispublicly,it,numberone,Ithinkcouldhavesoseverelyweakenedhisgovernmentthatitmighthavecosthimhisgovernment,youknow.BR:Yes.JF:Andnumbertwo,hadthatbeenthecase,itmayhavebroughtina

governmentthatwouldhavebeenwillingtosueforpeace.Infact,Stalineventriedtodothatin1942.BR:Yes.Andthosereportsofthosegenerals;firstcommanders,beingwillingtoshootthesoldierswhowoulddesert...ThisiscompletelycontrarytoeverythingweunderstandabouttheRussianpsyche,theRussianpersonality,theRussiandoggedresistance.JF:Exactly.BR:Itjustdoesn’tmatch,doesit?JF:Itdoesn’t.Exactly.



KC:IthoughtitwastheRussianwinterthatstoppedtheNazis.JF:Well,Imean,weget...Yeah.There’sallofthishappyclaptrap[Kerrylaughs],especiallyinAmerican,youknow,universityandhistorytextbooks.KC:Okay.JF:Youknow,AmericacomesinandsavesthedayinWorldWarOne.AmericacomesinandsavesthedayinWorldWarTwo,youknow.Tome,thisisjustmilitarybaloney.KC:Okay.JF:Becausewecomeinfairlylate.AndifyoulookatAmericancampaignsinWorldWarTwo,we’rekindofontheperipheryofthingsallthetime.Theaction’sgoingonintheSovietUnion.So,youknow,yeah,GeneralWinterandallthat.ButyoucanargueagainstthatthesisbecauseinAugustof1941AdolphHitlerturnsArmyGroupCenter,theSecondPanzerArmy,650milessouthoutofthewaytoencirclesomeRussianforcesinKiev,wheninfrontofthemhe’s250milesfromMoscowattheendofAugust[laughs]andtheyhavedecimatedsixtypercentoftheRedArmyandhe’sgotoneRussianrifledivisionstandingbetweenhimandMoscow.Sothewarwaslost,notbyGeneralWinterorGeneralMud,butbyHitlermakingthisdumb,stupid,silly,indefensiblemilitarydecisiontotakethatdetour.[laughs]BR:Yeah.

KC:Isitpossiblethateventhatis,youknow,disinfo?AndthatwhatreallychangedthewarwasthedealsbeingmadewiththeAmericansbecausetheydecidedtheywerefightingalosingbattleandtheyweremakingmonetarydealsandgettingoutofGermanybecausetheywantedtorewritehistoryandgoinadifferentdirection?JF:Okay.Well,Ithinkthedealsbegintobestruck—thefeelersareputoutforthem,certainly—intheperiodfromthefalloftheSixthArmyatStalingraduptothefailureoftheGermanoffensiveatKurskin1943;Julyof1943.Soit’sthistimeperiodKC:That’searly.JF:That’sfairlyearly.AfterKursk,theoffensivecapabilityoftheWehrmachtisbrokenforagoodyearandahalf,okay?Soit’sduringthisperiodthattheNazileadershipquietlymakethefeelers,hope

thattheoffensivegoeswell,buttheyputout,theylaythefoundation.AfterthebattleofKursk,thiskicksintohighgearandyouhaveallofthesesecretnegotiationstakingplace.Yeah.Ithinkyoucanmakeacertainargumentthatsomeofthishistoryhasbeendeliberatelydoctoredtohidethis.BR:It’sareasonableassumption.JF:Sure.BR:Letmeaskyouonefinalquestion...JF:Okay.BR:...althoughit’sanimportantoneanditcouldbeabigone,andIdon’tknowwhetherit’saneasyoneornot.JF:Okay.BR:Butthatis:Ifthereissuchathingasacentralpowerbaseof

theNazisnow,whereisit?Whoarethey?Andwhatstringsaretheypulling?Andwhyshouldwecare?JF:Ah...Germanyandsomeofthemajorpoliticians.[laughs]BR:Germany?Now?JF:Germany.Yeah.BR:Really!Ididn’tknowyouweregoingtosaythat!JF:Yeah,assurprisingasitmayseem.OneofthethingsthatIlookedatverycarefullyistheGermanReunification.WhentheBerlinWallfalls,itfallsontheexactdate—Iforgettheexactnumericaldateinmyhead—butitfallsontheexactdateoftheanniversaryof



Kristallnachtin1938.BR:Hm.JF:Itfalls...andthat,incidentally,istheanniversaryoftheBeerHallPutsch.Okay?BR:Okay.JF:Nowifyougobackandrecallwhat’stakingplaceinEastGermanyatthetime.There’sallthesemassmeetingsanddemonstrationsinLeipzigandDresdenofabunchofEastGermanintellectualsthatarepushingforthereformoftheEastGermanstate.They’renotpushingforreunification.Butthenanamazingthinghappens—andthis,tome,isthedeadgiveaway—themeetingsthemselvesbegintohavelotsofneo-Nazisstartattending.Thesepeopleshowupwithcellphones,computers,andlotsofmoney,andusingtypicalNazitactics,strong-armanyoppositionoutofthesemeetingsandbegintokindofsteerthemsothateventhepopularslogansthatthereformerswerechanting:WirsinddasVolk(Wearethepeople)ischangedtoWirsindeinVolk.BR:Ah.Weareonepeople.JF:EinVolk,einReich,einFhrer.Okay?BR:Yes.JF:Now,ontheotherside,ChancellorKöhl’sgovernmentinBonnisveryquietlybutveryseriouslychannelingmoneyanddrivingthisstuff.So,inotherwords,whatI’msaying:youcannothaveneo-Nazi

cellsincommunistEasternEuropesuddenlypoppingupwithcellphones,computers,allthismoney,organized,readytogo,withouthavinghadanintelligencestructureinEasternEuropetobeginwithtosupportit.Andwhenallofthisactivityhappens—BANG—allofasuddenBonnhas,readytogo,readytohand,aplanforreunification.Andit’sbasicallyashotgunweddingandit’stypicalHitler’stactics:Well,we’llgiveyoutheopportunitytovoteonwhetheryouwantreunification.Andagain,whathappens?WhenthereferendumisheldinthoseEastGermanyprovinces,theneo-Nazisshowupandtheyaredrivingsomeofthisactivitytokeeppeoplevotingthataregoingtovoteforitandtokeeppeoplethatdon’twantthatout.

BR:Butisn’tthispartofestablishingoneofthecentralplanksfortheEuropeanUnion?JF:Oh,ofcourseitis!BR:Okay.JF:ButwhatdoesMartinBormannsaythathewantstodoafterthewar?HewantstocreateaEuropeanfederation,orconfederation,whichGermanywillbeabletodominate.Andlistentohiswordsnow:Byelasticpoliticalmeans.Inotherwords,he’slearnedtospeakthelingotoa“T”.BR:Okay.Butareyousaying,then,thatwhatevermayormaynotbegoingoninAmericarightnowisdivorcedfromwhatyou’vejustdescribed?There’snoconnection?

JF:Ohno,no.Notatall.I’veveryalarmedbecausewhatIseehappeninginAmericawithinthelastten,twelveyears,isthisemergenceofahorrendousfascistpolice-state/snitchculture.Ohabsolutely.No,Iwouldn’tsayit’sdivorcedfromitatall.ButIamsayinglooktoEuropeandlookatrecenteventsverycarefully,andlookespeciallyattheeventssurroundingGermanReunificationandthemovesGermanymadeafterward—almostimmediately—tocrackupCzechoslovakiaandtocrackupYugoslavia.Because,remember,itwasWestGermany,therecently-reunitedGermany,



thatwasthefirstnationtorecognizebreakawayCroatiaovertheoppositionofWashingtonandLondon.Theydidthatunilaterally.AndwhenCroatiagotitsindependence,itturnedaroundandsaid:Oh,pleasehelpus.Willsomeonepleasehelpus?Sendpeacekeepers?—BANG—Germanysenttroops.BANG—GermanysenttheLuftwaffe.BANG—GermanysoldoffallthatcommunistequipmenttoCroatiaandre-equippedtheEastGermanpartofthenewly-absorbedEastGermanArmywithBundeswehrequipment.SolookatGermanycarefully.Anditdidalotmore.Imean,goontoYouTube.Thisisakick,becauseIfoundonYouTubeaBundeswehrWachbataillondoingamusicdrillshowinCologne—okay?—in2005![laughs]ThisjustflooredmebecausehereinAmerica,youknow,[laughing]wehavenoideathatthisisgoingon.Buttheycomemarchingintothisstadium,carryingtheBellTree,drumsa-blazing,pipingoutPrussia’sglory.Youknow?Soinotherwords,I’mlookingatarestorationofalloftheseoldPrussianmilitarytraditionsrightbeforemyeyes,andtheonlythingthey’renotdoingisthegoosestep.[laughs]I’mjustfloored.ButitscaresmebecauseItoldsomefriendsaboutfiveyearsbeforethereunificationevenhappened,Isaid:Youwatch.Ifitdoeshappen,theywillslowlybringbackallofthosemilitarytraditions.Andnow,

youknow,thistwo,threeyearslater,they’reholdingTorchlightTattooswiththeBundeswehragainmarchingin,carryingtheBellTree,andalltheseoldPrussiantrappings,doingthisTorchlightMilitaryTattoooutinfrontoftheReichstag,youknow.So,it’sscarytome.Imean,it’screepy.KC:Andalso...BR:Understood.KC:Obamawas...didaspecial...JF:AttheSiegessäule!KC:AttheGate,right?—[ed.note:BrandenburgGate]—Whichissupposedtobeaveryimportantsymboloftheeventfromtheoccultstandpoint.

JF:Ohsure!Ofcourse.Yeah.AndIdon’tthinkthisisagoodsymbolismatall.Therearesomepeoplethatdo,youknow.I’mdisagreedwithmygoodfriendRichardHoaglandoverthis.But,youknow,whydowehaveapresidentialcandidategotoBerlin?Sure,it’snicetohavegoodrelationswithEurope,obviously.BR:It’salsogottodowiththetouchoftheKennedy.JF:Yeah.It’sgoodtohavegoodrelationswithMoscowandBeijing,[laughs]youknow,andthatwouldseemtometobethelogicalplacethatyouwouldgo.ButBerlin?KC:Butthere’ssomesubliminalthinggoingonhere.JF:Ohsure.KC:Imean,ifthey’repermeatedNASA,theyhavetopermeatetheundercover,youknow,blackprojects...

JF:Right.KC:...thoroughly,andthatmeansthey’vepermeatedtherealsecretgovernmentoftheUnitedStates.Sothere’sanalignmentthere.JF:Okay.Askyourselfthis:TheHadronCollider,okay?You’vegottwohugecounter-rotatingringsandthey’regonnaspinuptheseparticlesandsmash’emtogether.Okay?Ifindthatwholecounter-rotatingideareallyweird,youknow,suggestivelyweird.Butthereallyweirdthingtomeis:WhyisthefirstChristianDemocraticUnionPartyChancellorofGermanyafterKöhlaphysicist?[Ed.note:



heisreferringtoAngelaMerkel.]BR:Hm.JF:Didyouknowthat?BR:Ididnot.JF:She’saPh.D.inphysics.[laughs]BR:Okay.JF:WhyissheaPh.D.inphysics?BR:APh.D.inphysics.JF:Yeah.Now,youknowwhataGermanPh.D.islike,toget.BR:Ido.JF:[laughs]Youknow,theydon’thandthemoutbyanymeansandthis,tome...Whyissomeonelikethateveninpolitics,butespeciallyatthatlevel?Youknow?ThisisnotaPh.D.inphysicsbecomingpremierofSomalia,youknow.[laughs]Thisisarathersophisticatednation,technologically.Sothattome,youknow...it’sanotherlittleindicatorthatwehavetowatchthingsoverthereverycarefully.BR:Sonow,what’sreallyfascinatinghere...Asyou’vekindlypointedout,weareunderapressureoftimethisevening.We’veonlydonenearlytwohoursandwecouldprobablydoanotherfourwithouteventhinkingaboutitbecausetherearesomanyplacesthisconversationcango.JF:Ohyeah.BR:Idon’tknowwhenwewillnextallbeinthesameplaceatthe

sametime,butrightnowIwouldliketosaythatwe’dlovetotalktoyouagainonaudiotoexploresomeofthesethings.JF:Sure.That’dbefine.BR:AndI’mquitesureI’mgonnawakeuptomorrowmorning,ifnotgodownrightnowintheescalator,withawholebunchofquestionswhichIhaven’thadachancetoask.JF:Right.Right.BR:WhatIdowanttodoisIwanttothankyouforyourdiligence,yourcreativity,yourarticulatenessinexplainingtheseconceptswhicharedifficultforalotofpeopletograspbecausethisstoryissohuge.

JF:Ohyes.BR:You’vebeendescribingthatpartoftheicebergthatisnotoftenseen.JF:Right.Right.BR:Someone’sgottodoit,andIthinkyou’vedoneawonderfuljob.JF:Well,thankyou.Thankyou.Iappreciatethat.BR:It’sourpleasureandourprivilegetoassistyouinthat,andwelookforwardtoseeingyouagain,andwelookforwardtotalkingtoyouagain.JF:It’llbemypleasure.BR:Thankyouverymuchforyourtime.JF:Thankyou.

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