PTERF\DFGTYLS,

AND

OTHER WEIRD

JB

These

ones are very impressionistic,

Virginio Woolf-ish, they

iust fade,

some-

times

it's surreal and sometimes

it's

spirit-

wl.

You

iust

catch

it

and

let

it

go.

where-

as

other

poems

I

do

are really

tight,

be-

cd$e they're

like

weapons

or

something.

I've

got

this thing a,bout hot

and

cold

poe.

tr.y, like

McCluhan, that dichotomy abctut

hot and

cold.

I

found

some

of

your

poems

reatly

tight,

very well-argued,

rational.

Whereas

Pam-

ela's

poetry

I found

based

on the

images,

feelings.

JB

Yeah,

I've

been

criticised

becduse

I

istst

let

images

explode,

inrages

iust

keep conx-

ing all the time and

there is

no developntent

ot'on

idea. But

tlwt's

a very

male

thing,

1'rsu

know,

'form',

where

you

hive

this luc-

id

exposition

of

an idea.

PB

Thnt's

what we were

talking about

yes-

terday, how nten

buikl.

JB Yes,

how men

build

antl

construct

and

won'ten

express.

And often

men

put

wo-

men's

poetry)

tlowtt

because

it's very

immed-

iate

-how they-feel now rather

than

attach-

'

ing themselyes

to sonrcthing.

. .

PB I

iust

think

the di.l.ferenc'e is that

wo-

nten's

poetQ

is real$; entotirtnal

and that

ntale

Etetr.v

is

reall.t,

obtuse,

obliclue.

But with

your

poetry,

Joanne,

obviously

I

wouldn't

he

poems

are really

powerful,

td.neous

fr f-"ffi

ffi

t*u*r*+ry*r*urffi

,,i

^

aL

^-

- - -- -̂ -

-

 

But

with

Vorr

p".try,

Joanne,

obviously

the

poems

are

really

powerful,

I

wouldn't

say that

they

directly

express

subjective

-

emotaons

the

way

Pam's

do.

JB

No,

nry

cntotions

arc

expressed thnsugh

the

lnttguage I

use, lhe texture,

the

sounii,

and the rh.t,tltnts

-the

eclge

ol'words,

per-

sonal

entotiortol

.f'eelings

are o

bj

ec.tiJ'ietl

in to

a

subiec't

outside

nq,sel.f.

The

emotion

ts

there

in the

texture,

rutlter

than

in what

I'm

tvriting

about.

Have

yoJ

ever written really

subjective

poems?

JB /

tlrirtk

sontetinrcs

when

I

write really

subiective

things

they

get

very

intense,

too

intense.

The

novel

I'm

cloing at the

ntonrcnt,

which

is

obiective

becouse

it Lras

a

c'haracter in

it,

is

really too

concentrated

Jbr

o

novel

because

I'ye proiected

so.tttuc,h

of nry

own

feelirtgs

into it.

It's

become so

thick

there's

no

distan(:e

from

it, and

tlis-

tonc'e is something

I ltave

to

c'reate

becuuse

I tltink

probably

I'm

too

enptktnal,

I hove

tu stond

back

and

ttse

choracters

to

proiec.t

nryielf

into, ntake

sure

I

don't use too

much

of nry

direct

self.

What

about

you

Pam,

do

you

do

the

same

sort of

thing, have that conscious thing

about distancing

yourself

from

the stuff

that

you

are writing?

W

No not

ot

all, I always write out tfi'an

emotion

rather

than an

idea and work

to

fit

an image to the emotion. I think I't,t

basically a

gtet

of the

entotions.

I think

I'm

more

like a

filmnwking

poet,

a

t'ilnr

poet

rather

than

a word-poet,

on itrtogist.

It's not

really

conscious, I

don't

start out

with

a conscious

ideo-it's all

lrom

on enr

otion,

I write strictly

from

an entotion. I

work

to

pare

down

the image, to nwke

the

image

exact. I'm really

into eutnomic

poe-

try. I don't

like

poetry

that

you

have to

wade

through,

those

greot

emotional swomps,

I'd

rather

just

lwve

an

image that soid

sad,

bad,

good,

etc.'I

don't

think

obout subject-

ive

fobjective,

I'm

just

subjective.

..,ii'ii.'.titt"liil,il.ii'iiii.

Some of

your

poems

Jo

are

written about

things

you

seem

to

be

observing,

like

the

one

about going

to the

theatre and

observ-

ing those

'peacock people',

do

you

go

into

situations

thinking'l'll

just

sit

back and ob

serve,

do

you

consciously

think

l'm

going

to

write about

this?

JB No,

I

just

get

really

turned on,

there

is usuulll,

an

instant

energv

which

nrcans

sonrcthing,

like

people

ore

not

jttst

individ-

ta\s t

hey.

reprcsent

so nrct hing

s.t, ntbo lic,,

something

I

like

or ltote or

find

powertill

<tr

tragic.

PB

I

renrcntber

one

night

ot

'Rub-t,

Red's'

tott

ltttllccl

out

))our

ruttebook, thi

t'eeling

there tlwt

ttight.vvas reall.v

s;trange

and vott

pic:ked

it

up

ruther

tlwtt

just

being

there.

Do

you

choose

what

you

will write

about?

JB t used to

write a

lot

ntrre

instontane-

oltsh', I

d

sce things

antl

thert

vtritc

about

them, nov,

I'ttt nrut'lt

nrur_e sclcctive,

I satt

'retnentber

tlwt'and

ustulll'

take tutes, i.f)

it

doesn't

secnl

in4xtrtant tt+,o wceks lotcr

then l'll

lbrget

about it.

ff't

still

Jeel

a

ceft

tain

ancrg,t afutttt

u

poem

I start

thett

I'li'

set

dorvn and

work on it,

&t l'Dt

selective

in

v'hat I

c'htxtse to

write

about

but

I ney

cr thirtk

anyntora

tltnt

I sltould

be writittg

about

so nret hing,

anj t hittg.

I

should

think

that

it would be

a

real

bind

on someone

on

a

literature grant

to have

to

'produce'

something,

have

either of

you

had

to

labour

under

that sort of

pressuie?'.;

:

JB

t wottltln't

kiow,

l've

neyer

hatl

one ;.

PB

/

had

a silk-sueening

grant

once so I

suppose

the

feeling

is

sirnilar,

I

kept

feeling

that I had to

produc:e

all this

stufl'to meet

the

Board,

things I really dicln't want

to

do.

JB I applied two or three

yeors

ago

arul

it

wasnT even looked at

so

I

never

bothered

again. I'll

probably

apply

again

this

year

thottgh,

but

it

reolly

oll depends

on

who

yott

krunu on

the

Boorul

ancl

the sort ot'ex-

posure

.'rott'ye

lwd.

What

about

politics,

does that come

into

it, in

terms

of the fact that

both

of

you

are

feminists?

PB I

tlort't

know,

in

rcgard

to nty stu 'it

wws

prubab$t

reject<:d

because

it

wos

too

'

c'o ttil t c r-

c

u I t ura

l', i t

wa

s

s

e

$'-

p

ub li s

hetl.

B ut

selt-trtttblic'atittn

is

a

Txtlitic'al

thing

to

do,

it t'ttls ttut

the

'niddle

nton'

c'ompletelT',

1,ott

do

.t,our

own

dis,tnbutiotn,.l,ou

hove

the

Jreetlom

to

prini:a.nd

distribute

wlwt-

ever

you

wonl. It daes

nrcatt thottgh,

tlwt

onl),

o relatively snwll tturttber

ol'peoplc

get to read it,

yttu

isually onl1,

distribute'

it

withirt

a

'sat'e'a,igrla or

area, so iu sonte

:

worts

it,is

restric:tii.e,:Bttt

I

do

krunt

that

''

the

Literature

Boa.rd

doesn't

like selJ-pttb-

tished w,ork

ot all; thcT"re ticd to

the

gow

crnnrcnt,

the

gorentnrcnt

is tied to big bu,s-

ine.s.s,

the

pblishittg

intlustry bette'.lits

Jront

tltc

alliance,

et('.

Abotr:'t behry

o

wotltun

tfutuglt

I suppose

sonte xrt oJ'discrinin-

atiott

operates

hut

I lwren't experienrctl

it

tlirectll, or

overtl)',

You exTterieru't'

i to

solnc

extent in

the

Wctr]'

Scctt('

itseu', the

nule

poe

ts wlw all write

poctns

afutut

and

,t'

to

cacli otlrcr.

. . ,",',.'i

JB

Yeah,

thot's

very

iweresting,

became

iomen

donT usually say

'l

wrote this

Wem for

so

ond so'. When men

present

their

wo* they speak of

it in

just

that way

'my

work',

becouse

they're

buikling

nton-

.

uments

for

eternitlt, they

cut the

'self'

off

from

it.

F-or exomple,

I donT write

about

,

myself

clirectly,

but

the

eruotion

is

therc,

whereas a lot

of men

don't

like

enrutiorwl

Wetry

because

it

lws to reyeol

t'eclings,

You can

be

enutiorul and

project

),our

efiDtions

onto

o choracter or

be

clirect$l*

cmotiotutl,

but

o lo1 of nrcn

don't

like

it,

it's

ttot

'eternul'.

But by the

same

token Jo,

your

poetry

is

veryintellectual

...

JB

Do

ltou

think so? I

w,rite

o lot

from

an-

ger

ond

ift)n.,J', I

like irony.

I

haye thesc re-

curring

t'igures,

sort of

alians

l'rom

soc'iety

who

wolk tlrc streets.

I

keep

tvriting

obout

,"'

them

beruuse

they

seem

trs

lrut'e, a really

q)tlcentrated

energl,,

they

sele<'t

o ter))

snnll sec'tiort oJ'tltc

worltl

lo take

with

thctrt.

There

seems

to

be

a current in

the Women's

Movement

which teirds towardi

very sub

jectivist

sort of

piletry,

yery

personitised

and irnmediate,

have

you

ever

been

critic-

ised

by,.other

feminists

because

your

po*

try

has

been

seen

as too intellectual

or eso-

teric?

JB Mr.

PB

I clc.f'initelt,,thirtk

tlrut tlwt

is a

trend

thrrugh, I

J'ell

ittto it

itt 1975,1,ou

kttow,

thc

greot

teminist

ycar,

ntairtll,

betause

tltost

ol'thc

literature

which

(urue

out tlur-

Q)

G

o

tr

c

ii

o

o.

ii

'

,i''tti"-t'

ffilrl+,

s*,,;'.'.','

ffi.;.'1.;l;l+.'t.

PAGE

I O

."6*rJ

I

I

gTH

APR

I

L,

1977

| 1

\- .

t.-1-.,

i

-.

5

 

SdiFSl#J#Jsrr.r4i+dv.rsrrilk:]Ti(.)T*\-{..7-.r:tBlCri$i{.r*-

the

hierarchical

coktnial

tradition what

you

can't

accepl

you

sfunsh

But

do

you

as

a

poet

depend

on that sort

of feed-back?

JB No,

but

I know I'm

going

to

get

certain

sorts of criticisms:l

write too

clensellt,

I

write too thickly,

the

poems

don't

develop,

they

are

too obseure,

too ruwny words, etc,

You

develop

a certain

kind of writing

per-

sonne

which

some

people

are bound

to

hote, some

people

hate Patrick White

nov-

els ond some love-them, There's

no

give

and take on

the

part

of

some

critics

at all,

ihey

iust

soy it's

one

thing

or

the other.

PB I think

o

poet

is

her

own

critic,

yott

know

for

exomple

when

you?e

self-indul-

gent, you

know whnt

you're

doing.

When

I

write

a

poem

thot's

sentinrcntal

or

selt'-

indulgent I know it and

expect

certain

sorts of

criticism,

you

end up knowing

))our

weaknesses

from

criticism

you

have

had in the

gnst.

You'ue

said

Pam,

that

your

style changed

fairly drastically when

the

feminist 'trans-

formation'occurred,

did

that

happen

to

you

also,

Jo?

JB

/ used to write a lctt

ot'peotry

wlrcn

I.

was about l8 or

j,9,

vosi

philosophical

''

WemS.

...

:

''/'

.

PB

,

. .

the

turgid

adolescent

p,hose

,

:.

JB

,Yes,

rhen l,stopped.

fo,r

a

wnit[

dnn

t

faund

ou.t

t?nt

there

wai

somethittg'mi

in

nty

lite,

norhing

I did

satisl'ied

ny(.

.

'Ra

z'

and' Adr enalin

I;licknife' are

pub

lished

by

the

Saturdalt Centre,

Box 140, PO

Cammeray.

,\l:^S.l'4

2062.

'Cocabala's

l;unny Ptcture

Book' snd'Autonat-

ic'

Sad'

can be

obtained

through Honi

Soit.

ACADEMIC

he

may

be

brilliant

LISTEN

COCKROACH

at writing

the

southern end

listen

cockroach of sentences

if

iwanted

he

cannot

calculate

a mexican

sunrise

the

yarrow

straws

maybe

i'd nerid

you

or

understand

down

here/coming down

the readout

in

the

white

walls,

th-e-wroru

brand

:''

pamela

cocabola

blown

of

paperbacks

and the humming fridge

singing i\,

keeps

on

talking

to me

cockroach

movement cockroach

iam

close

tei.

movement

one

you?

move

cockroach i am

closed

too.

i

am

closer to

listen

cockroach

mexican

energy/

the

moon

i;6u ft;;fiioacrr

than.

watch

it.

You?

your

shins

pamela

cocabola brown

ililf,,t, .

pamela

cocabola

brown

SHINS

Y.aY

JV Yeoh

sure, I stopped

writing

pocms

-

aboqt

baked beans,

fttr

exanrltle, I

t+,rote

a

.

po?m

once about

boked beans and Buddha,

'

-l'ott

end up

realising that

1,ou

haven't

got

to

wasle, I suppose tlnt

wos the

ntbst iintrwrtant

thiltg

I reali-Setl after

that

period.

PB

l'eah,

but

about

the

baked beans,l

tvottlcltt't

wi e

it ofl'so

e lsih.

I re ntentber

ffiYNTMK,

pffiffiTm,

PffiffiNffiMffiNK [E

a

kihd

of exit

/

for

Virginia

Woolf

t Whatever

the light touched

became dowered

with

a

fanatical existence. THE

WAVES

i. offerings of

pure green

caves

:

dtoms of

soft blue

intimate single

sparks

of the sibyl

',

.flowing

out of her marvelous

head/diaphany

'

of waves

and their

feathers/f ine

ether

flights

propel

us

to

her

personal

epiphanies

of light

iii

haruks

rove in

their season

r ,

to

prosecute

the dream and

its sheer

beliefs/hover

closest

to.the

preisures

of

faith

and

freeze

her

light

,

moths waver

in fractured

circles

,

round

fossed

globes/the

centres

' flounder

on

pages

like shiverinS

butterflies

on the

erratic

pace

of clouds

'. voices coil

like mournful

snakes

,

along

the

pen

/

muffled

codes

iniuring

her

air

iii.

the'shadows of blotching

fearc

darkened

the

eye,

weighted

the

hoods

with deep

imagery

concussing

in

her

mind

her

flow

of

light

dammed

up

with

the hear4y throb

:

of

trapped blood/she

arranged

'

her

hat

on her stick

in the

mud

like a

scarecrow her clearest

essay

of form

and

left the

damp

dark

fields to the liying/what

else

to do but descend

down

the

cool stems

of

the Ouse

to

the flowing

watery

flowers

luminous

in an

opal lighl

this/ death

has

no murky

,Joahl{e

Burns

mg thnt

year

was very

nxuch like

tlat, this

think

you

should stay with

that;it's

lust

like

shaving

your

head

you

end up letting

it

grow.

JB

I think

there

is

prcbably

a

difference

between

the

women

who were

poets

before

feminism

and those who became

paets

af-

Adrian Rich

for

exomple,

poe-

try luis always

been

very ual'tswoman-like,

Erica Jong,

etc.

Onceyou lwve built up a

set of tools

you

can't

deny

the

use

ol'them,

you

cant

forget

them.

PB / think

a

poet

who wosn't a

poet

and

who

is

now

o

poet

is

Alta.

Someone

like

tlwt, a

womon

who is a

feminist

poet

and

who

came

to

write

o

poetry

through

femin-

ism.

Which makes the

stvle

and

the

whole

of

seeing

things, very ditferent.

I really

agree

with

you

Pam,

about

the dif'

ference

bitween

the

poetry

you

wrote

in

'Automatic

Sad'and

the

poetry

of

the

'ar'

dent

feminist

year',

the

poems

in

lAuto-

'matic

Sad'are

much more crystal, more

sharp,

the

others seem

less striking

as if

lfie change in style

required

you

to

give

up

that

unique

use of .

. .

Pts t have

difficulty acc'epting

the Ig75

periad,

tlwt's wlnt

lwppens

whenever

you

write

something.

If

you

go

back

to the

lFunny

Picture

Book', which is

about

being

a

druggie,

the style was

very different.

The

clwriges:and

ty'cles in

your

life are reilW

diffrcult to accept,

but

they're

obvfutwly

retlected in the

poety

you'write.

-

au b ib nt i to. t h inn' - li La v * i ll tt u d i ro t't lu n hrt t t t

PB 'wlwt is this

cloul

oh, heights, deptlts

 

'''L,-

.

'

'

;..-,

'

'"

ldifficulttoaccept,butthey?eobviously

;

Ag

th,oiyear

wat

y -ry

mylh

like

tlw.t,

tltis

riflected

in the'poetry

you

write.

your

cunt

or

iowlperiod.

I went

through

'

"a

whole

style

c:hange

which

c'oincided

with

thc fact tfiat I alstt-bec'ame

an

ardent

fem-

;;;'liki;;';'-;;;'i;;i';i;i;:"s-i';"';i;

But

in

vour-poetrvlhose

chanses

are

rair'

-;i;i

i

ioti

o sense

of imagery,

it

was

cer-

ly easy to

discern,

whereas in

Joanne's

poe'

;;;ly"iiiii

iii

t

,,iotty

irrf

rur* that

it

k.

try less

of the

self

intrudes,

for e.xample,

s,oietlring

very

much-

of

1he

past, it's

real- in

your

poems

there

is an

incredible

amount

b''ii*i;;.

ti

iou

can

iitegritg

tllings;

like of drus-

imagery

and

ttrat obviouslv

reflects

Tni

iiiitiiy

within

th{self,

if

you

can

your

lifestyle,

whereas

in

vours

Joanne

;;;ii;;;ilr,r,

tlrc

polarisation

ii the

intel'

th-ere are

none

of those concrete

personal

icit"and'the

bo:dy

ihen

you've

got really

ref erence

points

. . .

good

PoetrY.

in

nt1t li e,

nor hins-

t';;; ;;;;7;;';'";)i::

PB

'wlat

is

this clowl

oh,

heights, d.ytths

of despir'..

.

JB

Yeah

tlwt

sort

o 'stull',

I tried

theote

ond

I

tried

singing

and

there

wos

still

a

huge

gap

in nry heod

or

sometldng,

sonte

nrt ot'gap

of

expression,

Then

I w'ent otter'

seds

to write

ancl while

there

I c'ast

tlrc

past

onrpletely

asfule, oll that

heari.t'lan'

-gmge,

ali

the

abstractions,

orrtl

ittst

c'otu'en'

lra{ed

on

smnll

inwges,

Seni-p;op

pttetry.

I

anded

up

writittg

httnuturot$,

pop

word

plays, sendilry a

few

arourtd

to ror'

ious urulerground

papers, {'tc'., tuttil

ot'rc

Wper

cglled

'strange I'-oe'ces',

a

verl'

sur-

Veal sort

of nmgazirte,

occeptetl.lheru

ancl

thctught

thcy

were

great

. . .

But

what

about

feminism?

,

,

JB

Yeah,l'trt

i'ttntittg

lo that. Thntugltitttt

thnt

ltear

the

poerns

starthtg

bet'oning

tt.L.)re

'sdvage,

nu)re

angryt.

PB But

v,hat

was

hnppeniltg

irr

)'our

li.l'e

at the

tinte,

be<'ause

i ')',ru

gt

tltrtttglt

ntas-

sive changes

politic'all7'

,,rr,,

)'our

v'lrule-

percept iott

of

tltirtgs

dwnges,

.t'ttu

itterprc I

things

tlitlerentlv.

PB l'eah,

but

about lhe baked

beorts, I

v,otrlcln't

wipe

it ofl'so

easill'. I renrcntber

v,riting

a

poem

aboUt

a

'strtoottftil

ofcleael

bbwllies'and

at that tinrc

I was liriitg

qtiite

seltdestructivel '

arrcl tlrut

qxtonful

of

deod blowl'lies

reflectecl

nry

cynic'isnt,

(ause

I

feet

tlat

I

write

with

nt1'

c'1'nical

eye.

JB But

il's rtttt like' tlpse

pol>poeilts

li'ant

tlrc

pust.

PB No, hul

I

dort't

reall-t' tltirtk

tlut

tlrt'

poem gets

acr<tss

the

sel./-clestru(tiott,

.l'ott

atten4)t

Io t'ltoose att

ittwge

v'lticlt

c0tt

('oLr'

turcit...

JB You

cltoose kt

v'rite

about blow'.f.lics

atul

ttot

plaslic'.flowers

. . .

PB

l.xat'tlt'.

JB

Btrt

jtrst

to

tie

up

tlrc last'questiott,

ott'

<'e

I

becanrc

nrure

o:n,are

<tt'.t't'tttittisttt

tttt:

poetry

becanrc

nurch

tttQtt'

saruge attl tlrc

Ittttrtour

nrut'lt blocker.

l'ou catt

sce tlrc

trottsiti<ttt

littttt

'Ratz'

to tltc otlter,

)'ott

gel

atryry'.

But

how

valid do

you

think

poetry

is in

a

political

context, do

you

think

it has

pow-

er to

initiate

changes

or influence

people's

emotions?

JB

Very intpr)rtont..).ottk

at Robitt XIor-

gatt

atttl

llrc

p<trr't't'.'her

poelr.t' ltocl orcr

Tetl Htgltes

Poetr1'is

pott'er

betause it

gets ittt.tt

1:our

J'eelirtgs,

ir

goes rigltt intrt

-r'our

head.

l,ika Btrh

Dvlan

's

sorlgs -//te'

'lx)rver

tlrc),

hatl

to

itt 'lueuce

a ulrcle

gen'

1,y.gli1Dt.

PB

lt's

o

t,totter

ofprbritie.s,

.s()rrr(' rerttl-

t t

t i o n arie s, so

t

t

rc a ru

le

n i c' r

ero lu

t io t tot'i

e s,

jttst

cltttt't

t\>nte

iltttt t'utta<'t

tvitlt

poetry)

antl untsecluentl-t'

tlrc.t'tlttttl

see

it as

ittt'

portnilt.

Tlwt's

their

prioritl'

atul

poctrt

ls

srlltcrtlle

else's

priorit.t'.

JB

Yott clo vtlls[

r'ott <'an best,

tlrc best

rvl)'

lor

)'ou

to

expres.s tt'/tdf l'tttt

ttwttt

to,

to

e-\press vour otger

atul use

)'ottt'

p()etn'

os

o \veap(trt.

Like Clris Sitko

wrote itt

'I{otlrcr

l'm Rootatl','l,et

nty words

d)tttc bullets

and nry

teors bec'onre bullets',

lrcr

poetrl'tt'os

o

weoqotl.

JB There's

a whole

pctlarisation

between

being

honest

antl

sincere

arul being

stylilh,

usini

style.

Technique

is a

c'raft

which

is

tupfiusia

rc be'too'traditional,

b-ut

y<tu

t'in''

still

use

it

anct be

iery

va*.

F'otr

exant'

ple.

I

wrote

that

poern'Enlistment'which

it

irr.,

raw', it chnnges

rhythms,-it

c'hanges

lbrnt"

atl the

way

through;

and Rttbin

Mor'

'gan

uses

a bt

oJ'poetic

craft

par.ticulnrly

"ihetoric,

she uiei

a

lot

of

traditional

Jbrms

ttf rhetorit'

but

her

poetry

is

still

raw,

still

ionest.

She

uses

those

traditional

fornts

antl

she

also

uses

rhyll1vn,

the

flow

ol'words'

in certian

patterns to

get the

effec't

she

wonts.

P8

Reading

that book

of

hers,

the

lotest

book,

I

found

tlwt

has donc.

some

poenis

which

are

clirectl-u

entotitt.nal

arul.l

'lbund

them

ver.\'

'wel',

I

iudge

them

as be'

,hir

rhetorit'al

poenxs

ntore'

like

Josnne's

poetrt;.'thiev

aie

sirong.

Thnt

trend

in thc

'Moviment,

that

really

raw trend

I've

conrc

to

itttlge

lbirly

criticallT'

b-ecause.l

suppose

t m'inn

thm

you

t'an work

a

bit

harcler.

JB

-/r

's

all

grtt

to do

with

toking

language

down'to

iti

sintplest,

langttaqe

con be

sirrt'

ple

but

1,s1'

c'harged,

it t:an be

syn*olistit'

'lnngwge

which

goes

beyond

the

wortl;

but

iJ

becttnrcs

so

plaitt, t+'ithout

the

iecnfiqies,

the

rh.vthnn

ofpeotry,

then . . .

PB

Btrt

in

solrtc

wa)'s

it's

an hrcredibll'

trxtl

itical

thing

to ckt .

. .

JB

Jttst like

slwving

1'our'lrcotl

.

.

,

PB

It's

exat'tl-t'

thc

sanrc

tlirtg,

it's

a

stoge,

wnrctlirtg

-t'ttit

lruve

to

do.

Sttnrc

sort

ot'

sclf'-real'-

tion

as a writer,

btrt

I tlort't

JB / always

thought

W'

paetrlt

was

v€iy

repetitious,

I

fcel

I'm

doing

the

sarue

thing

atl

the

tirue. There's

o

lot

of satire,

savage

rnockery

of

pettple, but

['m

trying

to

get

nwre

into

the

'lyric:al

iltterior'now,

nlore

than

iust

the

imogistic

exterior.

You krtotrt,

the

ftashing

inwges;

i've

been

ac'cused

t{'

being

flashy, iust

throwing

irwges"ottt,

o

smartorse .

PB This

is

a

verv

intere'sting

tlting-c:ritic'

ism.

Sonrcttne

ac'cused-)'ou

of

being

'flssht"

,so

what did

ytttt

iitt,

c'hange

yoy..............r

style?

JB

No,

I

t'ust

kept

going.

But

there's

thts

whole

thing between

the linear

progressktrt

of

an

idea,

and bdmbarding

the

reoder witlt

different

approaches

to

the

sonw

thittg-

,

the rotlial

efte<:t.

So

vou

ptt

dit't'erert

irtt'

oges

out, dilferent

ways

oJ'lookitrg

ot

sonrc'

thirtg,

alnrcst

like nixed

ntetapltors

cit

times,

but

this is

iust

a wa-v ot'opproac'hirtg

it, by

a

radiol

elt'ect

rather

tltan a

lirrcar

,,nr.'Arrt

prrptb

fitst

can't

utPc

tvith

tlwt,

it's

not rational

enough,

henc'e

thc acuts-

ation

of

'Jlashy'.

Just

going

badk

to basics,

who do

you

re-

ceive

most

of

your.criticisms

from, how

seriously

do

you

take

them,

and do

you

al-

ter

your

style

accordinglY?

JB

Oh

tto, tliJ 'erertt

peotrtle

-like

clilf'erent

.rf'/es

o/'writing,

bttt

itr Australio

it's

ver.v

irttolcraut, thc wlutle colortiol

hierorc'hical

thirtg,

il'sontcthitrg

tkrcw't

appcal

kt

yott,

-r,ou're

goittg

to

put

it

tlotutt

bec'ouse

\'ott

Itove to

ossert

yourscl.f'.

lt's

strt'lt a snutll

c'ircle

tlrcre

is

n<tt rttut'h

tolerance

ttJ'tlit-

l'erent

s/.I,/c.$,

il's

ttot costttopoliton

enouglt

to

at'<'ept

every.tlting,

srt itt thc

l'ashiott

tt.l'

Photo: Barbara

Levy

,'-,,1

I

gTH

APR

IL, 1977

PAQE

{

I