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The Quiet in the Land: Everyday Life, Contemporary Art, and the Shakers: A Conversationwith Janet A. KaplanAuthor(s): Janet A. Kaplan, Janine Antoni, Domenico de Clario, Adam Fuss, Mona Hatoum,Sam Samore, Jana Sterbak, Kazumi Tanaka, Wolfgang Tillmans, Nari Ward and Chen Zhen

Reviewed work(s):Source: Art Journal, Vol. 57, No. 2 (Summer, 1998), pp. 4-27Published by: College Art AssociationStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/778005 .

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During the summer of i996, ten artists from Asia, Australia, Europe, andNorth America participated in month-long residencies at the last active Shakercommunity in the world, in SabbathdayLake, Maine. This experience was thefirst phase of an ongoing project entitled "The Quiet in the Land," conceivedand organized by the contemporary art curator and art historian FranceMorin. The artists were Janine Antoni, Domenico deClario, Adam Fuss, Mona Hatoum, Sam Samore, JanaSterbak, Kazumi Tanaka,Wolfgang Tillmans, NariWard, and Chen Zhen. The Shakerswho were theirhosts included Sister Marie Burgess, SisterJuneCarpenter, Sister Frances A. Carr, Sister Minnie Greene, the late Sister RuthNutter, Brother Alistair Bate, Brother Arnold Hadd, and Brother Wayne Smith.The onsite project coordinator was Tony Guerrero.

Before the commencement of the project, each artist visited the Shakercommunity. During the residencies, they lived, worked, shared meals, and

The Quiet in the Land:Everyday Life,Contemporary Art,

and the Shakers:A Conversation with

Janet A. Kaplan

Adam FussAlfred. From the series InBetween, 1997. Silk andmylar. 137 x 18 (348 x45.7). Courtesy of theartist. Photo MelvilleMcLean.

worshipped with the Shakers;they experienced Shakerculture and its celebration of the aesthetics of every-day life. The artists drew on that experience to createworks as diverse as sound recordings, oil paintings,photographs, sculptural installations, and videotapes.These works were exhibited at the Institute of Con-temporary Art in Portland, Maine, from August 9 toSeptember 21; I997. In addition, a symposium waspresented that summer at the Meeting House in theShakerVillage. An exhibition of the artists' works willbe presented at the Institute of Contemporary Art inBoston from June 9 to September 20, i998. In 2000

an exhibition at the Museum of American Folk Art in New York will featuretheir works alongside historical Shakerworks selected by the artists from thecollections of the Hancock Shaker Village in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and theShaker Museum and Libraryin Old Chatham, New York.

Morin has written that "The Quiet in the Land" sought "to probe con-ventional notions of gender, work and spirituality, to redefine the making andexperiencing of art, and to challenge the widespread belief that art and lifeexist in separate realms. ... Its point of departure and inspiration was theShakers, people who for over two centuries have stood apart, but not retreat-ed from, dominant cultural practice, and who have lived and worked from analternative social paradigm at the foundation of which is a belief in the spiri-tual value of the activities of daily life. ... It was a unique encounter; eachgroup, each individual, traveled a great distance in an effort to understand theother. The space that was created and shared between them through theseattempts is as important a component of TheQuiet n the Land roject as the art-work in the exhibition. The Japanese word ma connotes this space between,this interval of fullness and harmony; although it is a concept with endlesslysubtle associations, it seems an appropriate metaphor."-Janet A. Kaplan5 art journal

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Kaplan: I'd like to begin by askingeach of you to talkaboutwhy youchose to participaten "TheQuiet in the Land"and to describethe workthatemergedout of your experience.Morin: Ihavebeen inthe art world for more thantwentyyears,since Ico-foundedthe magazineParachuten 1975,and hadalwaysworked inart insti-tutionsuntil1994,when Idecided to leavemy positionat the New Museumof ContemporaryArt in New York.Ihadalreadyorganizedmanyexhibitionsandpublications, ndIwantedto pushthe limitsof myown profession, owork differently. he Shakersandthe artistshad a lot of courageto embarkon thisproject.Idid not knowexactlyhow it would work.Ididnot have allthe answers.Ijustknew Ihad to do it.Tanaka:I'ma sculptorand an installationrtist,andmywork reflectsmypastlifeinJapanandthe experienceof coming o the Western world. Ichose to participatebecause I'vebeen workingwith the memoryof my past,and Ifelt that Ineeded new experiencesto move on to somethingelse. Thisprojectalso addresses he connection between life andart,which I'mveryinterested n.Imade an installation asedon my experienceat the diningtable-a communalexperience.Everyone omes to the table,and it'sreallyimportant o eat togetherand have discussions.Fuss:I'm romEngland riginally nd now liveinNew York.Igenerallyworkwithphotography. chose to participatebecause Iwas interested ntheShakers-even thoughI didn'tknow much aboutthem. ImadepieceswithShaker adders.Ihadalreadybeen workingwiththe ladderbecause I wasinterested nit as a symbolicvehicle.Samore:Iwork indifferentmedia,sometimes installation,nd I like owritefairy ales;sometimes Imakephotographsandpaintings.At the Shakervillage wanted to research he Shakers' ongsandstories. Idiscoveredthatthe Shakershave the largestnumberof folksongs in the United States-something ike en thousand-which made me verycurious.Hatoum: Iam a performance,video,and installation rtist.Iwanted to par-ticipate na community hat hadset itselfapart romthe world. Itappealedto me to retire rom the world for awhile, o forgetabout art andespeciallythe art world. IthinkFrance nvitedme becausemywork deals withevery-daylife. Forexample,Ioften use furniture s a reference o everydayob-jects.AlthoughI amnot religiousat all,Ihave been doingtranscendentalmeditation or over twenty years,and the experiencemade me thinkof howwonderful twas when I wouldgo on meditationretreats.Ifelt that I couldreconnect with the spiritualide of myself.Ward:Mywork is primarilynstallation-creatingenvironments or peopleto experience particular bjectsor the historyof a space. Iagreedto partici-pate becauseof the challenge. twas scaryto get involved nthisproject.

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Reading boutthe Shakersandseeingtheirpictures,Ihad the idea thattheywere a cold, solemngroup.Getting o know them andtrying o learnmoreaboutmyselfwas a majorcommitment.At firstIwasn't interested n the reli-giousaspect, butthen Ireflecteddeeplyon what they were trying o dealwith in their own lives.It was aneveryday hing.In he testimonials heywould talkabout it. Aftera while itwas easyfor me to connect to it. Not justinterms of where it led me inmywork, but personally. didtwo piecesforthisproject-VerticalHoldand Threshold. ne is made of bottles andyarn.The other is madeinpartwith elements fromthe Shakergrounds,such as apiece of a porchrailing.Other elements were recuperated rommyownneighborhoodenvironment.Antoni: Mywork ranges romphotographyo sculpture o installationoperformance o video. I do whateverittakes to communicate. didtwopieces for the Shakerproject.One was a series of photographs. pho-tographedpartsof the architecture hat aregenderspecificandputthosephotographs ogether.For nstance, here areseparatestaircases or menandwomen, as well as separatedining-roomables.Although hey aregen-der specific, hey are exact replicas.But,putside to side, they become mir-ror images.Iphotographed hose objectsas objectivelyas Icould and thenprinted hem together so thatthey could be looked at. And then Ilookedfor the placesin the villagewhere the maleandthe female sides met, to seewhat Icould find inthose spaces. Ifoundthe podium, he bell,and the clock.Ialso dida piece inwhichIrecorded with a video camera he experienceofgoinginto the MeetingHouse andspinning ntilIfelldown.Kaplan: I've used the word collaborationas a rubricunderwhich to thinkabout this project,and I wonder if, in fact, that word applies.Did any ofyou find that the processor the experiencewas collaborative?Hatoum: We collaboratedon very ordinary hings ikepaintinghe fence orpackingherbs.Inmycase, Ispent most of mytime packingherbsintheherb room. Or workingon the oval boxes. Andthen once a week the artistswouldcook. That was a kindof collaboration.But not interms of ourwork.Idid not see mywork as beinga collaboration.Ward: I feel a littleuncomfortable bout the word collaboration. twas moreof a communion,because communionhas a deeper meaning. t was muchmorethananycollaboration haveever been involved n.Fuss:Idon't think here was a collaboration.There was anexchangebe-tween two differentworlds-between an urbanworld anda ruralworld;between people inthe middleof contemporarycultureandthose in thisextreme, peripheralplace;between religious alues andwhatever we have;between sexualpoints.Samore: We don't know whetheror not the collaborationwilltake place

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later on. We knowthatthere was a beginning. omething tarted,but some-how itdoesn't seem like t's ended.Fuss: I thinkof the Shakersas being ikea viruswe allcaught.That was whatSisterFranciswouldsay.It'scalled he Shakerbug.It'sgot a lot to do withthe idea of practicingove andhow thatcan be communicatedor felt.Those people tryto do that,andit'scontagious.Not a collaborationbutanexchange.We get a feeling or that love, and it's likea disease. We can'tshake it off now. Ifeel that the exchange stakingplacebecausewe're stillincontact.Tanaka:There is no finish o thisproject.Our relationship,ikeour friend-shipto the Shakers,keepsgrowing.Fuss:Itjustoccurredto me thatthe pointat whichwe allreallycollaboratedwas singing,because we sanga lot with the Shakers.Francewill startus inasong rightnow.Morin: [singing] Ohthe beautiesof theGospel.Fuss: .. How ovely heyare. Howexalting heyare the truerichesMother'schildren ossesses.Tanaka: ... Theirvalue is pricedmore than gold. Hu-mi-li-ty.Fuss, Morin, Tanaka, Samore: ... Brightemblem of the savior. Be my adorn-ing.Be thegarment formhere ntime that when ife'sourneys ndedby angels,I'llbe wafted o dwellwithmysaviordivine.Morin: We can'tsing.Butwe love thissong. It became our favorite.Samore:In erms of the Shaker xperience,andlanguagetself, he singingsreally mportant, he use of the words, the poetry.When Ileftthe Shakers,for monthsI hadsingingnmy mind.It didn'tdisappear. t'sa formof con-versationor speech we have that is likeanafterimage.Morin: When people tryto articulatewhatthisprojectwas, they alwayscome backto a format thatthey'refamiliarwith.A residencyor a collabora-tion. Inmy mind, t tries to defyanykindof category.My nitial dea was toquestionallof thisand,in a verysimple,ordinary, umbleway,to experi-ment withconnecting wo groupsof people I felt could havesomething osayto each other because of the waythey live theirlife.Iwanted to dissolvethe rigid,hackneyed ategoriesof everydaycraftversus fineart, in favor of amore productive nterrogation:How isanykindof art related o the experi-ence andqualityof one's life? also wanted to questionthe role of the artistineffecting ocialchangewhilechallenginghe widespreadbelief that art andlife exist inseparaterealms.The artistsIselected are also interested n theactions thatmakeupdaily ife.Theirartistic nterventions re often modestor ephemeraland utilizealready amiliar ractices,habits,or objects. By

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JanineAntoniSeam: Dining Room Tables,1997. Chromogenicprints. Framed: 153/4x213/4(40 x 55.2); image:223/ x 283/4(57.8 x 73).Courtesy of the artist.

renegotiatinghe concept of everyday ife,they are undertaking philosophi-cal andspiritual-ratherthan literal-embrace of the prosaic.Thisprojectworked, inpart,because we allplunged nto the unknown.Iam alsogratefulto GerryWertkin, he director of the Museumof AmericanFolkArt and aShaker pecialistwho hasknown the Shaker ommunity or more thanthirtyyears.Inaddition o the factthat his museum served as the fiscalagentforthe project,he was always here for me and the artists,relentlesslyanswer-ingour questionsandbeinghonest in hisanswers.Gerryintroducedmeto the community.When I firstapproached hem with my proposal, heydeclinedto participate.Butafter a dayof talkingwith each other,they recon-sidered.However,they made the finaldecision.As Gerrysaid,"Nothing ikethis had ever been tried before. It was eithergoingto work or it wasn't."Samore:Ourworkingwith the Shakers nthe morningwas a form of collab-oration.Itwasn'tabout an exchangeof laboras inbeing paid.But twas avery elegantway for us to become involved.The beautywas that, ina way,we were seduced bytheir structureand that somethinghappenedbecauseofthat structure.9 art journal



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Morin: Manyof the artists elt deeplyinfluencedbythisstructureof every-daylife.Itscomplexsimplicity ngendereda more intenseregistering f time.Youare upat 6 if youworkwith BrotherWayneandBrotherAlistair nthebarn,andbya quarter o 7 you are ready o walkto the DwellingHouse tohelpthe sisterspreparebreakfast.At 7:30 the bellrings or breakfast, nd at8:30you havethe prayers.By9 the kitchen s cleaned,andyou are ready owork, butyou'vebeen up since 6. The sheep are inpasture.The barnsareclean.The dogs are fed. Allthese activities-cleaning, sewing,building,arm-ing,cooking-as well as the productsof these activities,areviewed as offer-ings o God, a dailyaffirmation f the Shakers' trongspirituality.rom9 to12 we workedfor the Shakers."Hands o work and heartsto God"or "Doallyourwork as ifyou had a thousandyearsto live,andas if you knewyoumust die tomorrow,"as they would say.At 12the bellrangagain or dinner,theirmainmeal. In he afternoonwe were free to work on our own projectsor for the Shakers nthe herbindustry,he oval box industry,he garden,orhaying,mending he fence, restoring he buildings, nd so on. At nightwehaddinneron our own in the Trustees'Office,where we lived and cookedtogether.One nighta week the artistsandorganizers ooked for theShakers-everythingfromsushi o Caribbean urry o tarte Tatin.Tanaka:Thissystemwas helpfulbecausethey realizedwe were willing owork for them. Itloosened upaftera few weeks, andthey huggedus andloved us.Kaplan: As an outsider to the experience, I want to understand the natureof the exchange between you, individually and collectively, with thesepeople who live a life so very different from yours.Fuss: It's undamentally ifferentbecause these people have chosen to becelibate.That'sanenormousgesture. Very ew people choose to do that incontemporary ociety.Morin:Andthey live a communal ifewithin hatcelibacy,whichtoday maynot strikeus as much because the difference nage between the men andthe women rightnow is large[allof the women are much older than themen]. Butconsideringhatthere were once sixthousandShakers,manyofthe same age, this commitment o celibacy s quitea powerfulchoice.Kaplan: How interested were the Shakers in what the artists were doingduring their afternoons?Fuss:Ididn't eel they intrudedat all,butoccasionallyhey came to seewhat Iwas doing.Theywere enthusiastic ndopen. Anythinghatanyonedoes is a legitimate xpression, he workof God. So they embraced all ofourworks.Morin:Theywere alsoveryopen aboutsaying,"Idon't understand." heywere not expectingexplanations,butthey were never afraid o look at any-10 SUMMER 1998



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thing.Theywere justso straightforward.think hey also developed anincredibleovefor our strugglebecausethey saw each of us at differentmomentsgo through ife difficulties. hey respectedthat we were strugglinginfrontof them.Kaplan: In our culturethe Shaker xperience s often fetishized andromanticized.How do you step away from that?Morin: "TheQuiet in the Land" ocuses on livingShakerism nd not justthematerial ultureand artistic"crafts"hroughwhich much of the world seesthis tradition. nsome ways,both the artistsand the Shakershave been sub-jected to a constraining isionof history,a preconceivednotion of artistandShaker romthe pastthat dictatestheirexpected role insociety today.TheSabbathdayLakecommunitymoves forwardwith itstradition,although heworld often assumes that Shakerisms as staticas the historical elicsof thehighly ollectible urniturewhich have become synonymouswith the Shakername. As the lateSisterMildredBaker aid,"WhenIdie, Ifairly xpect to berememberedas a piece of Shaker urniture." or both Sister FrancesandBrotherArnold,"Shakerismlwayshas to change, o move. The greatnessof it hasalwaysbeen that it is open; it allows for the embracing f so manythingsand for the individualo grow."Tillmans's hotographsalso resistthispopularcharacterizationf historicized nd archaicShakers.He presentsthe communityand theirsurroundingsnunusual ndunexpectedguises,especially nimagesdepicting he Shakers ntheirdailyactivities.Samore:Traditionally,visualartist s someone who develops a bodyofwork,whose namemayor maynot be recognized.But one's individual amedidn'tseem to be that important o the Shakers.On manyoccasionsIcouldhavesaidto one of them, "You houldtake creditfor thisas an artist."Butone wasn'tgoingto understand he experiencethrough hat discussion.Itwas goingto come aboutjustfromlivinghere andexchanging ery mundanethings.That was partof the spirituality.Tanaka:I had a very limitedamount of knowledgeabout the ShakersbeforeI arrivedat SabbathdayLake. hadseen Shaker urniture,butto me the ex-periencewas about anencounter with the people.Kaplan: Was there a directconnection between the experienceand thework you made?Tanaka:At some level.However,my piece is not aboutmywhole experi-ence. It's nevergoingto be. That'swhy itgivesme a sense of continuation.Hatoum: Some of the works Imade were executions of ideasIhad before.Forexample,Imade a colanderwith nuts and bolts insertedthroughallofthe holes, but Ihadalreadymadea ladlewith the same idea.Ihappened ofind the colander,whichIliked,and IthoughtIwould continuethe idea. Butsome thingswere completelynew, like he rubbings.Makinghe rubbingsI I art journal



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Mona HatoumFirst Step, 1996. Baby criband powdered sugar.Crib: 37/2 x 413/4x 231/2(95.3 x 106 x 59.7); instal-lation: 37'/4 x 84 x 36(95 x 213.4 x 91.4).Collection of PennyCooper and RenaRossenwasser, Berkeley.Photo Melville McLean.

gave me permission o work withmy hands.Mywork tends to be hands-offsometimes because it is quiteconceptual.Butthis was a simple process Icould do myself,slightly raft-oriented.We also learned o makeShakerovalboxes.And then I heardthatthey had a miniaturehorsehairbasket hatsomeone gavethem. Itried to make basketsout of manymaterials. finallymade one out of waxed paper,which Igaveto them. It was satisfyingoreconnectto thissimple process,to makeart with myown handswithoutasking oo manyquestionsabout what it means,justenjoying he process.Idid not want to go there, absorbaspects of Shakerism, nd then illustratemyexperience. Iwantedto let myselfbe inspiredbythe situation.For nstance,Ifound a bed when Iwas in Boston. I hadit sent there, and Ithoughtofsomething o do with it. Ithoughtof the sugarbecause there was so muchof that kindof cooking happeningnthe kitchen.Maybe f I had had the bedin a different ituationIneverwould havethoughtof the sugar.Ward: Ialso remembersaying hat Iwas not goingthere to be a Shaker.askedhow thiscould take me furtheralonginthe work Iwas alreadydoing.

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Fuss:Ifelt that I was in frontof thishugeold tree withone smallbranchwitha beautifullower on it and that Igot to be inthis tree and smellthatflower.It was that historical onnection.At Sister Ruth's uneralwe walked rom thehouse down thispathto the cemetery.Thatburialof this old Shakerreallyseemed likea mythical vent. It seemed likeIwas touching hese mythologicalbeings-the generationsof Shakers hathad lived and died.We were in con-nection withthem and with the whole thrust of thisspiritualizedife thattheypractice.The connection was coming ntocontact with the ideas thatpoweredthose lives,pastandpresent.And frommy reading, romlookingat images,fromjust walkingaround he placeandabsorbing he environmentand thestories.Hatoum: Ialways elt that Idid not want to bother them with mywork. Iwasjustenjoyingbeing here as anordinaryhumanbeing.I felt that Ihad beenadopted bythisvery loving amily, ndIjustwanted to enjoythat. Most of theconnectionIhad with them ended up beingquiteemotionalbecauseof thatfamily-like tmosphere.Itwas somethingIwas missingnmy own family, ome-thingIhaven'thad for myselfina very longtime. BecauseIhave been travelingandam barelyrooted anywhere, hatfeelingof settledness thatthey have andthat I hadwhilelivingwith them was a very strongemotionalexperience.Iwasintears the dayIhad to leave.Kaplan: Did you bring your own spiritual practice to this experience?Hatoum: Icamefrom a Christianamilybackground.ButI'msomeone whohasnever wanted to focus on religion. havebeen allergico organizedreligionand churches.AlthoughIthoughtthiswould be anoccasion when I couldreconnect withthe spiritual ide of myself, t became more about not thinkingaboutmyself spiritually utbeingamazedbythese people. Theywere notproselytizing. heywere very ordinarypeople ineverything hey did,but therewas this beautiful penness andgenerositywhichended up tellingme moreaboutspiritualityhan whatyou normally et frompreachersand the church.Ward:Growingup inthe Baptist hurch,youget caughtup inthe language.Therearen'ta lot of silencesinwhich no one is speaking.Here, the silencesare reallypotent, because in the silencesso muchhappens.So muchthoughtandurging oes on within hem.Antoni: They read from the Gospel.The testimoniesfromthe Shakersareloosely basedon that,something hat comes from that andrelatesto theirlives.They arethinking bout that allthe time.Ward: What really ouched me was theirnotion of trying o livein the Christspirit.The problemIalwayshad withthe Baptist hurchwas thatyouget toyour enlightened elf when you die, so suffernow and don't even tryto changeyoursituation.Theirway isvery progressive:We aretrying o get to that

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Christspirit nsideof ourselvesnow.Thatkindof resourcefulness sverypowerful.Kaplan: Canyou go back to the Baptist aith?Ward:Yes.I ammuch more aware.Throughunderstandinghingsbetter,Iam lessjudgmental, nd Ialso knowwhere my position s.Kaplan: The headline of one of the reviewsof the exhibition refers to thisprojectas "artistas spiritual ourist."Fromthe outside, it's easy to general-ize it as a touristicexperience.How do you respondto thatcriticism?Fuss: What is a tourist?Someone who comes, looks, leaves,andgoes backas if they hadn't ooked. Idon't thinkwe had thatexperience.A touristdoesn't live that life,doesn't absorb.We allabsorbedtoo much. It was toodeeplyfelt to saythat we were tourists.Morin: We all aced the predicament f havinga brief, ouristicview ofthe Shakers' piritualives and of imposingour own generalizingisionsontoa complexgroupof believerswith diversepersonalities, ges,andback-grounds.Itis hard o believe or to explain hatyou spent onlyone monthwith a communityandthat itwas a life-transformingxperience.But some-thinghappened.In he VillageVoiceLeslieCahmiwrote: "In he midstof thisactivity, omethingunexpected happened:artistsandShakers ell inlovewitheach other,"and she quotes BrotherArnold as saying,"Therewas onlyone momentof discomfort:when Irealized hey were gone."ArtistsandShakersactively,butpatiently, oughta spaceof commongroundbetweenthem. The artists' nteractionwith the Shakersdid not stop withthe sum-mer'swork.The two groupswriteto each other regularly.Mostof theartistswere at SisterRuth's uneral. speakto Sister Frances veryweek.We celebratebirthdays ndholidays ogether.Samore:The notionof the tourist soundsderogatorybecausewe don'twant to havethis so-calledoutsider/insider tatus.The residency astedforone month,butI don't think he project stopped. If Ican come backonce ayearfor the next hundredyears,that stillconstitutes he project.I'mnotsure if the concept of the tourist s applicableo thisparticular roject.Kaplan: Kazumi,you were justback. To visit? To work?Tanaka:To visit.Iwantedmy husband o meet the Shakersbecause Italkabout them a lot.Theywere strangers o me before thisproject,butnow I feel Icanalwaysreturnandbringbackthe feelingwe have towardseach other.Ward:There was suchanexchange.We learnedso much aboutourselvesand each other that that definition f artistas touristdoes not apply.Antoni: My irstwords to Francewere, "Howcanwe do this with integrity,

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and why did they want us there?" If we didn't end up havingthe relationshipwe had with the Shakers, it would have been that. Itwas a huge risk to dothe project. But I don't think any of us feel that happened. We are at suchanother level after the whole experience. And we are friends. Forget theshow, the project, anything. We have all been back. We write letters. Whowould have known that would happen?Samore: I wonder if the depth of our experience had to do with a differentconcept of family.We come from nuclear families of some sort, whereasthe Shakers' sense of family is different. For many of us that might've beenpart of the confusion about who these people are. Are they my family?AmI a brother? Is Adam my brother now? [laughter]Hatoum: Idon't think Iwas there just to take things from the Shakers andnot give anything back. Iwas there to participate in their everyday life. Inour work I hope we gave them as much as they gave us. It is important thatpeople don't think we went there with this exploitative attitude of wantingto take something from the Shakers. They were just livingtheir life everyminute of the day with love and generosity, and there was no way for any-body to interfere or affect that way of life. Idon't think anyone tried to doit, whether it was for the sake of art or anythingelse. You either join withthem or you don't. This idea of tourism sounds like going in there and tak-ing something away. Butyou can't really do that.Fuss: I'minterested in the question of the artist as spiritualtourist. That'slike a neon lightto me. It questions what an artist is. That phrase separatesartist from spiritualperson in a way. That's interesting, because in our soci-ety art has one foot in both worlds, or perhaps one-and-a-half feet in thesecular world and just a hint of God in there somewhere. But what is art,and what is an artist? What an artist is today is probably not what an artisttraditionally used to be-someone who articulated the relationshipbetween something higher and the place where we live.Kaplan: Do you feel that your own translation of the experience into thework hinges on this notion of the artist as articulator?Did any of you feelthe responsibility specifically to make work out of the experience?Fuss: Absolutely, because France made it clear that there was going to bean exhibition and a publication. So Ididn't feel like I could sit around andwatch the clouds blow by. We weren't obliged to do it there, but we feltobliged to do it. But Iwanted to work. Iwouldn't have worked if Ihadn'twanted to.Hatoum: France kept sayingthat you don't have to make anythingwhileyou are here. You can just be here and reflect on your experience later. Butmy work was inspired by the interaction and came very organically.Ifell inlove with some of the kitchen utensils they had displayed in their cabinets.

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They let me borrow them. Imade a lot of rubbings f these old kitchenutensils.Ithink hey were madeinthe 1830sbythe Shakers.Antoni: Iworked on a piece I didn'teven show. Istacked wo eight-hundred-poundimestone boulderson top of eachother,and for four-to-five hours a dayI walkedaround hem, pushinghe top stone so thatthetwo carved nto each other.Ifoundthe rocks in Indiana nd drovethem toSabbathdayLake. didn't ike he idea of using hat as myShakerprojectbecause it was preconceived.I wantedmy project o come out of the expe-rience.The rocks are still here, and the piece isyet to be finished.Kaplan: In retrospect, did that piece have anything to do with a spiritualpractice?Antoni: As much as anyof my repetitive abor s meditative.Kaplan: Nari, how were you trying to make a connection between yourexperience and the Shakers?Ward:It's his ideathatyou are on the rightpath.Like aith.Their aith sreally trong.They aretotallycommittedto it inevery way,andyou learnfrom that. For Vertical oldIdugfor unbrokenbottles every day.Every ime Iwouldfindone it was a momentof joy.Itriedto correlatethat with this ideaof faith.I didn'tknow what Iwas goingto do with these things.Ijustknewthat I wanted to collect as manyas possible.Kaplan: What inspired you to collect bottles?Ward:I was interested nfinding way to go beyondthe normalarthistori-caldialogueof AfricanAmericanyardshows. I havealwaysbeen interestedin the bottletrees youfind in those yards.The bottlewas a metaphor orthe ideaof the spirit, omething nvisiblebutvery presentthat can becomea container.With myother piece Iwas trying o typify he space of theMeetingHouse, this testimonialplacewhere two memberswouldface eachother and cleansethemselves.Antoni: Ialso used myvideo cameraas I would a sketchbook. I walkedaround he Shakervillagevideotapingdifferent hingsIsaw. I was walkingaroundmystone andthinking bouta certainrhythm was noticing n howthe Shakers'daywas set up. They alwaysate, worked,andsleptat a certainhour.Itwas important hatthatrhythm tayintact.I was also lookingat nat-ural hings,at the rhythmof beingon a farm, he sheep goingout to grazeandcomingback n,the bellringing.was videotapinghese thingsand listen-ingto the music,whichisverysimpleandrhythmical.treally akesyouaway; t'scomforting.The combinationof those things eftme feeling hatthe Shakerswere stillspinning, ut in a differentway.I was trying o figureout if Icoulddo a piece aboutthisrhythm.At a certainpointIrealized hatIwas justavoidingmyselfand that I wantedto tryto spin.Once Igot that in

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Nari WardVertical Hold, 1996.Bottles and yarn. 146 x26 x 26 (370.8 x 66 x 66).Courtesy of the artist.Photo Melville McLean.

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my head,Icouldn'tget it out, even thoughIwas afraid f the ideabecausethe Shakershadn'tspuninthirtyyears.Theydida kindof formalizeddancethat iswell-known nphotographs.Sometimesduring hat dancethey wouldbreakoff, spin,and shake. It was a release.Andthat was what the fallingwasabout,which relates more to the Baptists. heldthe video cameranearmyhead,andbecause Ididn'thave the balanceof mytwo arms,Ifellprettyquickly.But,curiously,when myvisiongot dizzy, he cameracame into focus.When Ifallanddropto the ground,you can hearthatIambreathing eryhard.Then the sound of a car comes by.Thisrealityof the world isprettysignificant.Morin: An importantraditionof the UnitedSocietyof Believers hat con-tinues to thisdayisjournalkeeping.BrotherWayne keepsthe journalatSabbathdayLake. ndividualmembers recordthe manifold ctivities hat con-stitute theireverydayexistence. Manyof the artistsalso keptjournals hatreflected he different xperiencesof theirdaily ife. Forexample,ChenZhen'sMyDiaryn ShakerVillageonsists of twenty-sevenframes,one foreachdayof hisstayat SabbathdayLake,withphotographs, ketches,draw-ings,andwritings.The series of pastel portraitshe did of each Shaker,whichis partof the series,becameanopen dialoguewith the community.Samore:Ialso kepta journal,andthe poem I wrote for the exhibition,"Be-witchedbyCold WaterWell,"camefrom it. My nterest n the communalwas related o my interest nthe publicandprivateself. I've neverparticipat-ed in a structured eligionn whichIhad to confess something,andIwantedto experiencethe issue of the publicand the privatemyself.So Itook on thetask of writinga diary. was ableto read some of the Shakerdiaries,but Idon't know how manymembersburned heir diaries. also triedto find asmuch Shakerpoetryas Icould withaspectsof sensuality r eroticism.I didn'tfindany.It could be an endlessproject.Kaplan: France,could you talkaboutthe meetingsfor conversation?Morin: The meetingsoriginallyunctionedas anopportunity or the twosexes to gather or singing ndgeneralconversation,butthey were discontin-ued at the end of the nineteenthcentury.Isuggested o the Shakers hatthey reinstitute hem, andthey agreed.So, everyThursday vening hegroupscametogetherfor a weekly meeting or conversation.These sessionsprovidedanopen, honest forumfor intense discussionsof subjectssuchastheology,Spiritdrawings,work,art,andgender, o namea few. Theyalsoprovidedanopportunity o discusshow the projectwas going.We recordedthe conversations,which were each approximately nhourlong.Theywillbe included n the book.Kaplan: Did you conformto the Shakers'male/female separation?Fuss: Yes.InourWednesdayPrayerMeetings nthe DwellingHouse we

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separated.On Sunday, ou'rein the church amilyhouse, so there'sa tradi-tion andetiquettethere as well.Morin: Inchurch t'sreallyrespected.The men andthe women sit facingeach other on the longbenches. Iwould love to hear the artists alkaboutthe Sundaymeetings,about the testimony.Antoni: You standupandgivetestimony,andthen somebodyfromthecommunitywill start a song inresponseto whatyou have said. There is usu-allya songthatpertains nsome way.It'sa dialoguegoingback andforth.Kaplan: Did you all standup and sharetestimonials?Antoni: Yes. But ttook a while. [laughter]Ward: Itreallyhasto do with beingcomfortablewithyourown insecurityandvulnerability. hey are strong nthatrespect. Ithink t hasto do withlivinghat communal ife.There is a support systemthey haveamongeachother. Itwas really nspiring.Antoni: Theirabilityo communicatewas most striking. fyou thinkaboutlivingncommunity,t is likebeingmarried o seven people. The communica-tion has to be good. Andthey aregood at dealingwitha problemwhen itcomes up.They arevery straightforward eople. Partof it is those testi-monies. Twicea week standingupandspeaking romsomewhere deep, inapublicway,is a skill hatwe justdon't have. As artistsall of us speakaboutour work allthe time. But he way in whichthey speakintestimonyis a dif-ferentstory.Iwas takenabackwhen Ifirstgot there. Ifelt theirabilityo behonest andstraightforward.heydidn'tseem to havesomething hat wehave,the etiquetteor laboreddance aroundwhat we want to say.Theywere so straightforwardhat Ifelt itwas a challenge o come upto that level.With testimonyespecially, ou couldget upandsaysomethingeloquent,butthey would know if itwasn't fromthe heart. Itwasn't until he end thatanyof us couldget upandsaysomething.At a certainpointyou felt likeyouhad to. Itwas a partof being n the community.Kaplan: So the testimonyis a gift to others.Ward: Not justto others but to themselves as well. Puttingt out there sothey cangrow. Ihad a lot of respectfor thatbecauseIthink or usvisualpeople, the feelingsget layeredso thatwe don't reallydeal withthem. Wedon'tverbalize hem;we tryto putthem out ina visual anguage.To seethem working hatwaywas reallygreat.Samore:Idon't thinkIsaidanythingnthe meetings.Iwas too inhibited.had never had that kindof experiencebefore, so maybeyearsfromnow I'llfinallyindsome partof me thatcan. But twas a very powerfulandmovingexperienceto be there. Anyoneon a Sunday ouldsaysomething.

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Chen Zhen. Foreground:The Openingof ClosedCenter, 1996-97.Wood,metal, and found objects.Installation: 120 x 84(304.8 x 213.4). Collec-tion of Penny and DavidMcCall,NewYork.Background:My DiaryinShakerVillage,1996-97.Pastel and Chinese ink onpaper.Total:27 framedpastel portraits with writ-ing in Chinese ink onmatte board. 26 pastelimages: 12 x 15/4 (30.5 x38.7); I pastel image: 12x151/430.5 x 38.7). Collec-tion of Penny and DavidMcCall,NewYork. PhotoMelville McLean.

Kaplan: Is it silent until the Spirit moves somebody to speak?Samore: It could be silent. But there was a structure in that for the most partafter someone said something the Shakers would then give back or respondwith a song. They would usually read from the Old and New Testaments andthe Gospel, but they weren't leading a ritual or a ceremony. Then otherShakers would comment on their own particularview or feeling. But what-ever is said is not about exchanging information.Morin: Itdefinitely comes from the heart. You are sitting in the MeetingHouse, listeningto the testimonies of others, collecting your thoughts, andplanningwhat you want to say. But as soon as you stand up, you completelyforget everything, and what needs to come out just flows from your mouth.It is a very moving experience. You have no idea how difficult it is to standup. That's what the Shakers mean when they say, "when the Spiritmovesyou.Fuss: It's hard to bullshit in that space. It has such a resonance.

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Kazumi TanakaCommunion, 1996.Wood,metal, plexiglas, plates,water, and clock.Installation: 187/2 x39/2 x 35 (476.3 x 100.3 x88.9). Courtesy of theartist and Kent Gallery,NewYork. Photo MelvilleMcLean.

Kaplan: Does the makingof the art alsohappenwhen the Spiritmovesyou? Isn't that what the Shakerdrawingsare in responseto? As artistscanyou relateto the idea that art is about when the Spiritmoves you?Ward: Inthe Baptist aithIhave seen thatquitea lot. Peoplego into thesegyrations,andthey are out of touch withthemselves andsomethingelsetakes over.Discipliningourselfas an artist s learningo funnelenergyfromthat placeand have it come out into the energyof whatyou aretrying o do.How do you stirit upto release itself?The idea of Christon the cross is allabout release.How to release the energyso that it canbe acknowledgedand lived.The ideaof the Spirit omes across inthatway.

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Samore:Peopleoften ask what the Shakersactuallybelieve in. Iwouldsaythat,yes, they'reChristian;et, Iread other Shakerswho would talkocca-sionallyabout Buddha r Socrates.Ithink t evolves or changesdependingon who isthere at that moment.Idon't knowthata Shakerhasto agreewithevery single enet of a certainkindof Christianityo be a Shaker. 'mnot sure it's so clearlydefined.Morin:There are three basicbeliefsof the ShakerChurch-what they callthe "3 C's": elibacy, ommunityof property,and confessionof sins.As faras your questionabout the Spiritdrawings, hey were producedduringwhatis often referred o as the Eraof Manifestationsr MotherAnn'sWork,when churchmembers receiveddirect,personalrevelations rom,amongothers,theirfounderMotherAnnLee,consideredbythe Shakers o be thesecond Christ nfemale form. Manyof the "instruments" ho mediatedthese messageswere Shakerwomen such as HannahCohoon, Hester AnnAdams,or PollyCollins.The works we knowas Shakerdrawings esistoururgeto categorize hem,to placethem in a context thatwillshapetheirmeanings-as folkart,as women'swork,as spiritual utomatism.From hetimethey were createdinthe mid-nineteenth entury, he Shaker ommunityhas focused on their functionas presentsor tokens of lovefromthe HolySpirit, ather han on the specificsof their form. Thedrawings,most accom-paniedbytexts, were placedon an uninterruptedontinuumwith othermanifestations f belief-inspired writing, cstaticmovement,andsponta-neous words, especially nthe formof song. Iwill be organizing n exhibitionat the DrawingCenter in New York n afew yearson these drawings.Kaplan: How has the experienceof living andworkingwith the Shakerschanged you?Morin: Byacknowledginghatchange sgood and crucial o one's life.Whether it be inone's life, art,or relationshipo artor spirituality,hangehasalwaysbeen difficult o deal with. SisterMildredBarker, wonderfulShakerwho dieda few yearsago, mayhave summarizedt best when shewrote in a letter to Lifemagazine,which hadportrayed he Shakersas a dyingsect: "Youmissedthe Brightness ndLightwhichis Shakerism,he light, oyandvitalityhat is the productof Shakerism.Regardless f our numbersorour age,we have what he worlds seekingand it willyet come nto ts own."Ward: Forme, it had to do withmy relationshipo myown faith,whichIalwaysdealtwith ironicallynmy priorwork. I did a seriesof pieces aboutsugar,a metaphor or myrelationshipo my belief inChrist,whichbecamelikea temporary ixor a sweet drug-if you touch it, it willget stickyon yourhands.Itwas always ronic.I came out of there realizinghat I could stillbecritical,butIdon't haveto feel uncomfortable bout it. I found a commongroundwith them aboutcoming o terms withwhat Ibelieveon a deeperleveland not justthe dogmasof whatwas fed to me inchurch.Iam now

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workingon a piece that translates he Crucifixionnto somethingelse. ButIam much more comfortableaboutworkingwith that idea of release.A lotof mywork has been about this idea of weaving, ying,knotting.The ideaof juxtaposinghatwithsomethingbreakingdown andbeingreleased.Iammuch more comfortablewithhavingt not become ironicor cynical.Antoni: Mywork has been intransition ver since I havebeen withtheShakers. don't knowwhere it isgoing,butthe focus has shiftedawayfromwhat is known.Iam much more interested n the discoveryand much essinterested nmy body of work. Ihave more faith hat it is all connected. Oneconcept I'mstillworkingwith is the notionof simplicity.We look at Shakerfurniturewith no decorationandsay it'sso simple.That was my stereotype.But, t'sreallya muchdeeper concept. They even tried to speaksimply, om-municate traightforwardly.thoughta lot about that in terms of myworkand how to communicatedirectly. remember hisstrangemetaphor hatBrotherArnoldonce related o me-"to be likea sheet with no wrinkles."Thatimagestuckwith me. While Iwas there withoutthe fax machine, hetelephone, the T.V.,andthe millionphonecallsandappointments, createdthe space inmy head for things o happen.Creatively t was a veryfruitfultime. Even houghwe were working or the Shakers or halfthe day, tseemed that Igot so much more accomplished. twas reallyaboutthinkingabout what our lives havebecome. It doesn't take more thanbeingback nNew York or three daysfor all of thatto come backand hityou inthe face.How to keepthatspacefor myselfinthe cityhas been a constantstruggle.Kaplan: One of the focuses of the work you made was gender.Did yousee any connectionbetween genderand celibacyand this idea of simplicity?Antoni: The two most radical onceptsfor me to come to termswith werethe notion of celibacyandhow the Spiritmanifests tself.They seemed onthe edge for me. And of course that is rightwhere Iended up.Ihadalreadydone a lot of work myselfabouttrying o findthings hat were genderspec-ific andeven uncodable o the opposite sex, and here Ifoundthese twothings hat were the same andyet genderspecific.Ithoughtaboutwhat itmeansto look at the other sex as a reflectionof yourself,but turnedaround.As Ilooked at how the architecturewas set up,Inoticedvery importantthings.We would think hat the separation s aboutbeingcelibate,aboutkeeping he men awayfromthe women. But,when you sit inthe MeetingHouse,you arefacing he men. You are singingo the men,andthey areresponding o you. Ifyou walkedupthe stairs nthe DwellingHouse at thesametime,you would meet each other at the top. Therewas thiswonderfulmoment,before meals,in whichwe would walk down the hallway,urntogo in the door,andacknowledge he men on the other side.Acknowledg-ment is the keyword. Therewasn't thisdenial.Manyreligious ommunitiesare celibate.Thatis not unusual.But here areveryfew that livetogether in

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the same house. You really have to come to terms with that decision, whichis stillvery curious to me, but a challenge.Kaplan: So you are talking about seeing the self in the other.Antoni: Right. It is a new way for me to think, a model. For me, the strong-est image is Mother/Father/God. Ijust received a letter from the Shakers inwhich they referred to God as a "she" and sometimes as a "he." Itgoes backand forth. In the songs God takes on the characteristics of the mother and allthe wonderful things we associate with the comfort of the mother and thenin another song the father. I related to that very strongly.Samore: Maybe Janet is askingwhether there is a before and after. Idon'twant to make a conceptual break or an historical analysis of what happened.Icould come up with a list of words or adjectives that could denote changeor something like that. But that might reduce the experience to a couple ofsound bites, and then it's not going to actually communicate. Ithink that thesum total of the two hours that we've been talkingis what actuallywas thechange so far. That could be one way of putting it. What we've said so farshows that there was a change, and that is part of the experience.Fuss: I think it's a question for the end of our lives. That's when it can beanswered.Kaplan: The fact that none of you thinks it's simple to answer the ques-tion is a testament to the project.Morin: It raised a lot of unanswered questions.Kaplan: Do you live any differently as a result of living with them and theway they live?Hatoum: Iwish Icould say that. This way of livingis a possibility not availableto me now, but knowing Ihave experienced it is quite a nice thing. Icouldrevert to it. It is not the right thing for me now, but it makes you feel good toknow there is that place, that way of living,that state of mind.Kaplan: It would be great to get a little capsule moment of one memo-rable experience from each of you. Your singing here today was thatmoment for me.Samore: For me, it was the deconstruction of the fence. We were asked tofix the fence along the Meeting House. Itwas a very long fence, and eachartist group had different theories about how to fix it. The June group lookedat it their way, and the July group did it their way, and the August group . ..Kaplan: And now it's a testament of the record of those groups?Morin: And it all looks good.

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JanaSterbakBread-Bed,1997.Metallicstructure and bread.428 x 413/8 653/8107 x105 x 166).Courtesy ofEdicionsT-Galeriad'Art,Barcelona.

Samore:This,to me, was partof the celebratoryaspect of the project.Eachgroup's nterpretation f how to fixthisfence was open; each one of uscouldvoice our opinionabouthow it couldbe fixed.Thatwould be myimage.Antoni: The fence is key.Becauseeachgroupworkedon a different ection,the fence is like a timeline.The groupbefore us laboriously hippedawayatthisfence. We heardstories aboutwhatthey hadgone throughwhen wearrived.We startedto repair he fence inthe sameway.Then Narisaid,"This s ridiculous.We shouldget a belt sanderandgo afterthisthing."Therewas thisfunnykindof competition nwhicheveryonewas trying o

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outchip he other-who could workthe hardest.Conceptually,he mostinterestingssuewas, "Whatdoes it meanto restore something?"Were weinterested n the waythe fence was originally,r was that aboutnostalgia?Then we woke upone dayand askedourselvesif itwas Shakerat alltoobsess over these details.We should ust get to work. Ithink hey wereamusedbyus, butthey understoodthatwe were takingquite seriouslyourassignmento restore the fence. Ina sense that was the artists'collaboration.Ward:Ihave four images.One was the fence. Itwas a symbol,because wewere privy o these two worlds,to thisboundary.Throughworkingon thefence we allbondedtogether as artists.The Shakerswere alwayson theother side. It seems anapt metaphor or what happened.Then there was thebogwhere Iwent to get the bottles. It was a curiousphenomenon.Therewas a kindof moss thatgrew on the water.You went onto it,anditwas lit-erally ikewalking n water,or on a bed. Itwas a strange,powerfulexperi-ence. Also,workingwithJanineon her stone to helpwith her technicalprob-lems.We went out there-me, Chen,andTony.That was potent.The lastwas the MeetingHouse. Sittinghere was reallypowerful.The moments ofsilence.And the haying.Antoni: That was one time we reallyworkedtogetherwith the Shakers.There was somethingreally oyousaboutthe haying.Two other experiencesstickwithme. One is mundane.We hadgone to the beachwiththe Shakers,one of the few timesthey were outside of theircommunity. witnessedBrotherWaynewashing he feet of a sister.Itwas so tender.Idon't reallyknow how to explain t. Itgaveyou a sense of familyandcommunityand tak-ingcare of each other.Icouldgive manysuchexamples.The waythey tookcare of each otherwas especially ouchingbecause of the generationgap.The other was SisterRuth'smemorial ervice.We drove backupto be withthem.When BrotherArnoldgot upandgavetestimony,I don't thinkIhaveever experiencedsomeone beingso honest andopen who ranthrough ucha rangeof emotions as he did. The incredible trengthhe hadto show hisfeelings.Hatoum:A lot of things hat came out of the testimonieswere quitewon-derful.I wrote some down, especially hings hat BrotherArnold said.Theyseemed verysimple,butthey were wonderful-like "don't et the sungodown on your anger." ort out your angerbeforethe end of the dayso thatthe next dayis a new one.Tanaka:Ihavelots of memories,butwhatcomes to mindnow iswhat hap-pened duringmy last visit.We talkedaboutthe confessionand the Sundaymeeting.Ihadactuallynever stood upandsaidanythingbecause I felt that Ihadnothing o say.ButIreallywanted to standup,so Idid so without know-ingwhat Iwas goingto say.Ittook me a whileto starttalking. t'sactuallyreallyphenomenal.Because brothersandsisters arefacingeach other,allthe

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sistersdidn'tknow Ihad stood up,but allthe brothersdid.Theywere look-ingat me. I was nervousandshaking,but it was a greatmoment. Iwas sohappyIstood up.Ican'tquiterememberwhat I said[laughter].But hen Imust havesaidsomethinggood because I saw allthe brotherswere smiling.Then Isat down, andthey sanga song connected to what Ihad said.Itwasso touchingbecausethey associatedme with the song. Ifelt like hey're giv-ingme backrespectfor trying o standup,and I was so happy.Fuss: Thereare so manymemories of beautifulmoments that interestedme. The funeralof SisterRuth,becauseso muchof the Shakers'mythologyis aboutthe beyond,about some other invisibleworld and where that invisi-ble world has become visible,and Sister Ruthwent to that place,and shewas in our lives asa physicalbeing.That whole ceremony,and the passingofthis old Shakerwas justtoo much. It was amazingbecause it's also one lessShakeras well, and it's one more body inthatgraveyard.Samore:To me there were a lot of ritualshatwere sacred,butthey couldalso be mundane. nmy lifeI don't make a dailyritual,but Ithinkaboutmanyof the dailyrituals,wakingup in the morningandwaiting or the bell to callfor the breakfast r waiting or lunch,or standing t the chair.These ritualsare something hat Idon't organizemylifeby,so that'ssomething hat I'mgoingto carrywith me.Morin: Mine s a very smallmoment.The firsttime Ivisited he Shakers,didn'tknow where to go. Iwas really ntimidated. rang he bellof theDwellingHouse, Sister Frances ame to the door,and said withsuchstraight-forwardness,"IamSister Frances.Youmustbe France."Andsomethingreallypowerfulhappened o me at that moment. Ijustknew Ihad to workin thatplace,with these people. With suchdirectness,she shook my handandsaid,"Please ollow me to the chapeland sit on the sisters'side." It'samemoryIthinkaboutoften because it was the firsttime I was in the village,andIremember herface so vividly.Then Ipassedthrough he prayerroomwith allthe Shakerportraitson the wall andwalked nto the chapelandsat inthe corner beside Sister Ruth.Ilooked outside the largewindows at the vil-lage.Itwas really ikea daze.

The precedingdiscussion s an edited compilationof threeseparate onver-sations about the project held in late I997 and early I998. (Fuss, Morin,Samore,and Tanakaparticipatedn one conversation;AntoniandWard inanother;and Hatoum in a telephoneinterview.)

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