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WR 06/15/10
1
WATER RESOURCES COMMITTEE
Council of the County of Maui
MINUTES
June 15, 2010
Council Chamber
APPROVED:
TRANSCRIBED BY: CAMMIE GILLETT
Registered Professional Reporter
Hawaii Certified Shorthand Reporter #438
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2CONVENE:
9:03 a.m.
PRESENT: VOTING MEMBERS:Councilmember Michael P. Victorino, ChairCouncilmember Joseph Pontanilla, Vice-Chair (In9:45 a.m.)
Councilmember Gladys C. BaisaCouncilmember Sol P. Kaho'ohalahalaCouncilmember Danny A. MateoCouncilmember Bill Kauakea Medeiros (Out 11:35a.m.)
Councilmember Michael J. Molina
NON-VOTING MEMBERS:Councilmember Wayne K. Nishiki
Kimberley Willenbrink, Legislative AnalystTammy M. Frias, Committee SecretaryJock Yamaguchi, Executive Assistant toCouncilmember Wayne K. Nishiki
Jeffrey Eng, Director, Department of Water SupplyEdward S. Kushi, Jr., Deputy Corporation Counsel,
Department of the Corporation Counsel
ITEM NO. 13:Stephen Anthony, Director, United States GeologicalSurvey (USGS) Pacific Islands Water Science
CenterDelwyn Oki, Hydrologist, United States GeologicalSurvey (USGS)
Kelly Ruidas, President, Hui 0 Ka'Ike - Employeesof Hawaii Commercial & Sugar Company (HC&S)
Warren Watanabe, Executive Director, Maui CountyFarm Bureau
John V. Duey, President, Hui 0 Na Wai EhaMichael HowdenVictor Pellegrino, Hui 0 Na Wai Eha; Noho'ana FarmEdward A. Smith, Upcountry Advisory CommitteeLyn ScottRosemary S. Robbins, Water Oversight AdvisoryCommittee
Irene Bowie, Executive Director, Maui TomorrowFoundation, Inc.
ITEM NO. 1(1):Ron Montgomery, Upcountry Sustainability, KulaCommunity Association
Tom Hunter, Steering Committee Member, HaliimaileCommunity Garden
Ernest H. Rezents
STAFF:
ADMIN:
OTHERS:
CAMMIE GILLETT, RPR, CSR #438
Michael HowdenDain KaneEdward A. Smith, Upcountry Advisory CommitteeWilliam Jacintho, President, Maui Cattlemen'sAssociation
Lyn ScottGina FlammerOTHERS:Additional Attendees (10)
PRESS: Akaku: Maui Community Television, Inc.
CHAIR VICTORINO: ...(gavel)... Good morning. The
Water Resource Committee for June 15, 2010 will come to
order. Members that are here this morning, I'd like to
introduce. First of all, we have the Vice-Chair of the
Council, Mr. Mike Molina.
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Good morning, Chairman.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
We also have the lovely young lady from Upcountry,
Ms. Gladys Baisa.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Thank you very much, Chair.
Good morning.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
We have the representative from Lanai, Mr. Sol P.
Kaho'ohalahala.
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Good morning, Chair.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
Our representative from East Maui, Mr. Bill
Medeiros.
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4COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Aloha and good morning,
Chair.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning. Ooh, you're there.
That's working.
Our Council Chair and from the island of Molokai,
Mr. Danny Mateo.
COUNCILMEMBER MATEO: Good morning, Chair.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
And myself, the Chair of the Committee, Michael
Victorino.
I'd like to introduce a Non-Voting Member -- those
are all the Voting Members, by the way, ladies and
gentlemen. And our one Non-Voting Member that's here this
morning, Mr. Wayne Nishiki, from South Maui.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Good morning.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
From the Administration, we have Mr. Jeffrey Eng,
the Director of the Water Supply Department.
MR. ENG: Good morning.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning. Also, Corporate --
Deputy Corporation Counsel, Mr. Edward Kushi.
MR. KUSHI: Good morning.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
We have our two legislative staff: Our Committee
Secretary, Ms. Tammy Frias; and our Legislative Analyst,
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Ms. Kim Willenbrink, which happens to be in the back. And
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we have two special guests today who are right now in the
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middle of trying to get some technical difficulties
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corrected. I have Mr. Stephen Anthony, the Director of the
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USGS Pacific Islands Water Science Center, and Mr. Delwyn
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Oki, a hydrologist from the USGS. And they're back there
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right now trying to get some of the technical difficulties
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taken care of.
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This morning, ladies and gentlemen, we have two
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items that we'll be discussing: WR-13, the Instream Flow
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Standards and Diversions. Mr. Oki and Mr. Anthony will be
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covering that subject a little -- right after we get through
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with public testimony. And then we will have also WR-1,
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Water Supply Rules, the Definition of an Agricultural
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Consumer. So we have quite a number of things to work on,
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and we have quite a number of testifiers. So I'd like to
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get started.
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Let me set the rules as far as testimony is
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concerned. Each testifier will be allowed three minutes,
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with one minute to conclude. I'm hoping the lighting system
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will be working, but that would depends if Ms. Willenbrink
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can be back to assist us or not. And if not, then we're
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going to have to do it by timer. Okay. I'll leave that up
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to you, Tammy.
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So -- and now I'll ask everyone in the gallery, as
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well as Members, if they would turn off all noise-making
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devices. Decorum will be adhered to at all times. So with
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no further ado, may I go ahead and start public testimony
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with no objections?
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COUNCIL MEMBERS: No objections.
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CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
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We will start -- the first public -- first
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testifier for -- from the public will be testifying on WR-1.
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This is Mr. Ron Montgomery. And he is with the Upcountry
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Sustainability and Kula Community Association.
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Mr. Montgomery. And followed by Mr. Kelly Ruidas.
12 ...BEGIN PUBLIC TESTIMONY...
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MR. MONTGOMERY: Thank you, Chair. And I
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appreciate the opportunity to speak this morning. I brought
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a visual. This did not come from California or Mexico or
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Chile. It came from my backyard garden. And I'm not here
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as a backyard gardener to ask for, nor do I deserve
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agricultural water rates. But this is what this bill is all
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about is whether you're a big farm or a small farm, a
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nonprofit or a community garden, it's important for Maui to
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support and increase our ability to produce food for our own
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consumption on the island.
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And I want to commend the Chair for his openness
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and willingness to listen to and take ideas that are new to
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create the current version of the bill. It includes
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7provisions to prove that people are actually producing food
rather than watering their lawns. It's a step in the right
direction. And as a member of both of those organizations,
we do support the current bill. They say that a good
compromise is one where nobody is completely happy. And I
think that this is a case in point. There's still issues
related to the gross income levels, but this is definitely a
step in the right direction. And I thank you for your
openness on this.
And on another note, I want to thank not only the
work, but the stand that the entire County Council took on
this year's budget. I think you guys did something that the
State and our Federal Government should take a look at.
Thank you very much.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Montgomery.
Questions for Mr. Montgomery to clarify his
testimony?
Seeing none, thank you.
Mr. Kelly Ruidas. And he will be representing the
employees of HC&S, followed by Warren Watanabe.
MR. RUIDAS: Good morning, Chair --
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning, Kelly.
MR. RUIDAS: -- Victorino. Good morning, Committee
Members. My name is Kelly Ruidas, President of Hui 0
Ka'Ike. Hui 0 Ka'Ike is a group of Maui residents,
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specifically HC&S employees, and those interested in
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agriculture who have come together to ensure that the
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central valley of Maui remains green and in productive
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agriculture. We also believe in the importance of other
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farmers, ranchers on Maui to provide us with local
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agricultural products. I come before you today to
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respectfully urge a recognition of off-stream users of water
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during discussions of off -- instream uses and impacts on
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streams by diversions.
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The press release yesterday by the Water Department
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emphasizes the risk associated with reductions in diversions
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without a complementary increase in new source development.
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Waikamoi is empty and Kahakapao is at 25 percent of
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capacity. Water will be pumped from the lower system,
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further impacting users of that system. As workers of HC&S,
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we know that -- that the watershed must be protected.
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Without water, we would not exist. Seven out of last ten
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years have -- have been USDA declared drought years on Maui.
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And this year, portions of Maui are in extreme drought.
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We know that we -- excuse me. We know as we see
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the low ditch levels coming into the plantation. We are
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very concerned that decisions have been made to restore
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additional water into the streams without commitment that
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there will be equivalent water development somewhere. The
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water that is being restored is currently used by someone.
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9The May 2010 East Maui IIFS decision requiring
stream restoration was done in addition to a restoration
order last year. 2007 and 2008 were amongst the driest
years in recorded history. If these years or condition
repeat, there will not be adequate water not only for HC&S,
which is already water short, but for Upcountry farmers and
ranchers, along with residents, small businesses, schools,
churches, hospitals and fire protection systems.
Mr. Eng, during his testimony before the
Commission, spoke to -- to this issue. And the Commission
staff agreed that there would be a problem. Yesterday's
press release speaks of an -- of empty reservoirs, and this
is before the release order and May decision. What will
happen when the release are implemented and effects flows
into West Maui, as those users have been on prevert --
conservation notice for some time?
There's great emphasis to protect streams, riparian
environments, and cultural uses. We do not disagree that
they are important. However, the people need water. Maui
is the most dependent of all -- Maui is the most stream
dependent of all counties. The Commission on Water Resource
Management Chair, Laura Thielen, stated in her closing
remarks at East Maui -- and we believe it is part of the
final decision -- that Maui must identify means to reduce
it's independence on surface water. The decision in the
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1 0past few weeks have been serious -- have serious impacts on
all of us who live on Maui and has set major precedence for
the future water decisions in the State.
We respectfully urge the Council to take serious
consideration of drought periods in discussion about
instream flows. The current water short situation clearly
demonstrates we do not live in an average world. Not only
HC&S, but the people of Upcountry, Haiku, Pukalani, Kahului,
Kihei, Maalaea, Wailuku and Waihee all depend on this water
for their livelihood and living. The average water flows
are not available during droughts. Planning for -- for the
needs of the community during this periods must be a
priority.
Thank you for allowing me to provide our opinion on
this important matter.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. -- Mr. Ruidas.
Any questions for the testifier for clarification
of his testimony?
Seeing none, thank you very much.
MR. RUIDAS: Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Next testifier will be Warren
Watanabe. He's with the Maui County Farm Bureau. He's the
Executive Director, followed by Mr. John Duey.
MR. WATANABE: Good morning, Chair Victorino,
Members -- Members of the Committee. I -- as you stated,
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11I'm Warren Watanabe, Executive Director of the Maui County
Farm Bureau, representing Maui's commercial farm and ranch
families and organizations. We are all dependent upon
stream diversions for our livelihood. Therefore, the
subject before you today is of personal interest to all of
our members.
The latest Hawaii Drought Monitor, dated on
June 10th, stated that Hawaii is in -- is the driest State
in the nation -- specifically, the Big Island and Maui
County. In agriculture, we -- we know this is real. Our
ranchers are struggling as pastures are dry and they
struggle to meet the feed and water needs of their cattle.
In the recent past, this has happened many times,
emphasizing the need for us to focus on creative ways to
provide -- to provide agriculture with water during these
dry periods. While we appreciate the Water Commission's
efforts to strike a balance, we found decisions to restore
water during the summer very difficult to accept.
Ironically, the decision of West Maui was issued on June
10th, the same day the new Drought Monitor report was
released.
As farmers and ranchers, we understand the
implications of these decision, specifically, that it has
placed the viability of our farmers, of our members at
further risk. It is, therefore, critical that new source
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12development projects be -- be advanced and implemented
before any further reductions in usage is supported. Thank
you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Watanabe.
Any -- any questions for the testifier to clarify
his testimony? Seeing none, thank you.
Next is Mr. John Duey. And he's with Hui 0 Na Wai
Eha, followed by Mr. Tom Hunter. Good morning, Mr. Duey.
MR. DUEY: Good morning, Mr. Chair Victorino and
Council Members and the residents here. My name is John
Duey, President of Hui 0 Na Wai Eha, resident of --
landowner in Iao Valley. Just got back from the mainland
last night at 7:30. But I did hear the -- I got a call
about the terrible decision the Water Commission made on the
-- on the four streams, Na Wai Eha. It was a shock. Very
disappointed, disturbance -- disturbing. After six years,
and this is what we get?
The majority of the Commissioners have no respect
for the law. The -- the -- the contested case hearings
officer, Dr. Miike, had recommended -- as you may well know,
but I'll remind you. He recommended 14 million restored to
Waihee, three and a half to Waiehu, 13 to Iao, four to
Waikapu. The final decision voted on by the majority, not
including Dr. Miike: Ten for Waihee, two and a half for
Waiehu, zero for Iao, and zero for Waikapu.
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13If the Commissioners would have read the law, I
think they would have made a different decision. This will
be appealed, which only makes sense. The three things that
are left out here: Number one, two, or three, however order
you want to put them in. Number one, I would say recharge.
Dr. Oki will go into that. I don't want to steal his
thunder here. I heard it -- seen his report earlier, and
I've read it. By restoring water to streams, it will make a
large recharge to the aquifer, which we're worried about.
Number two or number one or three is traditional
customary practices, which are being left out for the two
streams. Number three -- or one, two or three is the stream
life. I have not read the report. I don't have it yet.
But I did hear some comment about the 20-foot fall in the
stream that the Corps put in in '78, which is right below
the -- right below Market Street where Spreckels Ditch
crosses, the one that says there's -- the fish cannot
migrate up there, but they can. The (inaudible) has proven
that, said that. The 'o'opu can climb -- can climb, climb,
climb.
In fact, I've seen the evidence of that myself
about two months ago at Olowalu where we were involved in a
project. There was a small, little -- in a ditch, there was
some boards there, and the -- the 'o'opu was just flat
against that board moving up. It wasn't very high, but he
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14was going upstream, straight up in the air. Straight up.
That's the first time I witnessed that myself, so I can say
it does happen.
I want to say we're not -- we're disappointed. But
imua. We will -- like Dr. Miike said, the law will prevail.
The law is on our side. It happened at Waiahole. Same
thing happened, they didn't put water. The Supreme Court
slapped them in the face. The Commission said you put water
back in the stream, and they did. So we have all confidence
in the world it's going to happen here. But for now, imua.
And thank you for listening.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Duey.
Questions for the testifier to clarify his
testimony?
Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Duey.
The next testifier will be Mr. Tom Hunter. And he
is with the Haliimaile Community Garden, Steering Committee
Member, followed by Ernest Rezents.
MR. HUNTER: Good morning, gentlemen. And thank
you for taking the time to hear our requests. I represent
Haliimaile Community Garden, which is a group of individuals
who have 10 by 20 gardening plots in a community garden
atmosphere doing organic gardening, growing mostly
vegetables, few fruits. This is located behind the
community of Haliimaile.
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15And our request is to be sure that whenever you are
doing the definition for agricultural consumers, that you be
sure to include a provision that allows a community
association, such as ours, to fall under the definition of
an agricultural consumer because we would like to be able to
continue this effort. Really, that's my request. I'll be
brief.
Any questions, sir?
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yeah.
MR. HUNTER: Yes, sir.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. One moment, please. Have
you read the latest version of the bill?
MR. HUNTER: No, I have not.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. There is a provision in
there. And I want to make sure that you are notified that
community gardens were a part of the last revision --
revised bill.
MR. HUNTER: Yes.
CHAIR VICTORINO: So we -- we did not -- in fact,
when the sustainable groups met with me, that was one of the
big issues, and we made sure that was inclusive.
MR. HUNTER: Very good.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. So -- so just so that
you're aware that the last version that is out now -- in
fact, the last two versions, that has been included in
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16there. Okay?
MR. HUNTER: Okay.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Questions from the Members?
First of all, I'll start with Ms. Baisa.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Thank you very much, Chair.
And thank you, Mr. Hunter, for being here this
morning. Just a quick question. We have a recommendation
from the Water Director that a community garden should meet
a minimum net cultivated parcel size of 22,000 square feet,
and have a group of no less that 25 active participants.
Would your group meet that?
MR. HUNTER: We have about 55 active participants
at the moment.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Uh-huh.
MR. HUNTER: And we have space for 95. The square
footage --
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: 22,000 square feet net
cultivated.
MR. HUNTER: Well, that was -- let me do some math
here.
We would have -- the way we're set up now -- 19,000
square feet.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: So you wouldn't make it,
then. Okay. Thank you very much for coming this morning.
MR. HUNTER: Thank you. Anyone else?
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17CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Anybody else has any
questions for the testifier? Mr. Nishiki.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: No. Yeah, my question
is -- was going to be have you read the bill. But being
that you haven't, please read the bill and see if you've got
any other input.
MR. HUNTER: Yes, sir.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Because you are waivered in
here. I think there's a bill out there too. If there's
not, then please get one.
MR. HUNTER: Okay.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Thank you.
MR. HUNTER: Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Thank you, sir.
Okay. Next testifier will be Mr. Ernest Rezents,
testifying on his behalf, followed by Michael Howden.
MR. REZENTS: Oh, excuse me.
Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Committee Members.
Thank you for taking my testimony this morning. I speak
about the gross income level to qualify for ag water rates.
That's what I'm speaking on today. I believe that the
$10,000 gross farm income is much too high to qualify for ag
water rates.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Mr. Rezents, before you go on.
Again, I -- I -- I -- the latest version --
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18MR. REZENTS: I have not read the bill,
Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Not the bill now, okay.
MR. REZENTS: Okay.
CHAIR VICTORINO: The bill is 2,500.
MR. REZENTS: Okay. Okay.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Just so that -- I'm
beginning to feel like maybe not -- you guys not really
reading the last version. So go ahead.
MR. REZENTS: Things change so rapidly.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yes, sir. Thank you.
MR. REZENTS: And I'm not as current as I should be
maybe.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Well, that's okay. That's okay.
MR. REZENTS: Okay.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Go ahead.
MR. REZENTS: Nonetheless, what I have to say has
more than this.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Go ahead.
MR. REZENTS: All right. I recommended that you
consider $1,000, not the $2,500. This is consistent with
the national USDA Farm Bill guidelines. The farmer knows
this dollar figure. A high-dollar figure forces honest
people to become dishonest to qualify for ag water rates,
very easily done with a sharp pencil. We should encourage
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small farmers because they supply commodities for unique
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niche markets. This reduces our importation of food, builds
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up our economy, and keeps Maui County green.
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I suggest that you keep the 30,000 gallons before
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the ag price break takes effect. This by itself limits the
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number of farmers because it costs $120 at $4 per thousand
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gallons upfront. So that's the limitation right there.
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That's the bottleneck.
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I've heard about water cops. And I hate snoops.
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But if you need to have someone check on ag water rate
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consumers, I would contract for the services of such a
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person, then you don't have a County position, nor fringe
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benefits to pay. And this would be on an as-needed basis.
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But I dislike snoops. A big-time caution, even more
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important is this. And listen carefully. Be careful what
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dollar income you use to define agriculture. It is very
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easy to use the same farm dollar gross income figure for
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property tax purposes. There are many farmers who do not
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meet $2,500 or $10,000 or $5,000. And I am one who makes
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less than $5,000.
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Now, if they were to use that for my property taxes
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in a gulch, I couldn't afford that land. So the -- be very
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careful how you define agriculture. And I think even $2,500
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is too high. Go down to 1,000, and keep the 30,000 gallon
25
water consumption set before you qualify for the ag water
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20rate. So that's my presentation this morning. And I'm a
small farmer and I do not take ag water rates because I
still have a trickle in my stream, thank goodness. But if
that dries up, I will have to use some gallons. But I don't
think my few head of cattle will justify ag rates. But I
speak for the public in general. Thank you very much.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Rezents. I'm glad
that we were able to clarify that, you know.
MR. REZENTS: Yes. Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Questions for the
testifier?
Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Rezents.
Michael Howden, and followed by Mr. Victor
Pellegrino.
MR. HOWDEN: Chairman Victorino, Members of the
Committee. I -- I think with John Duey, I -- I find the
Commission on Water Resource Management's decision almost
inexplicable. It flies in face of -- or is contrary to
established law throughout the State of Hawaii in terms of
Public Trust Doctrine.
I think with -- in relation to the plantation,
there was a sentence that the Commission on Water Resource
Management included in their preliminary report. And it
says with decreasing trends in stream flow, East Maui
streams will continue to be an insufficient supply of
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surface water needs for the plantation regardless of interim
2
IFS adoption, unquote.
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I think what was really striking to me in the last
4
meeting, the last Commission meeting in Paia, was the lack
5
of any sense of compromise, at least on the part of the
6
plantation and part of conventional agriculture. That was
7
in stark contrast to what we had seen at previous meetings,
8
where employees of the plantation expressed their heartfelt
9
concern at the predicament for residents. Na Kua'aina, the
10
residents of East Maui.
11
What Kelly Ruidas said today in terms of Waikamoi
12
being empty, Waikamoi, the two reservoirs there -- which
13
are, I believe, each 15 million gallons -- are simply used
14
as transition reservoirs that, you know, we don't use those
15
for water storage because their in such horrid disrepair.
16
There's tremendous amounts of silt in the bottom of those
17
reservoirs, and they need relining. I mean, that would seem
18
to be one of the most economic ways to create another 30
19
million gallons of storage. And I would suggest that
20
Well 7, which produces 20 million gallons a day, could be
21
reactivated and contribute to a water-short plantation.
22
I would also question -- I mean, we talked a lot --
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I mean, there are brilliant people who have been involved
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with -- horticulturists who have been involved with the
25
plantation. But I think with changing weather patterns,
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sugar, water hungry tropical grass grown largely in sand
2
dunes in Central Maui is perhaps a poor choice for a primary
3
crop for the plantation. And regardless of this, where
4
we're -- where we're losing it, both in East Maui and for Na
5
Wai Eha, is that we're not really caring for the watersheds.
6
And as Sumner Erdman pointed out, the new appointee
7
to the Commission, who's recused himself from this, it
8
doesn't matter at all who controls the water if you haven't
9
taken care of the watersheds. You know, he was shocked.
10 And I think Commission Members were shocked at the Na Wai
11
Eha watersheds. And that's where we need to look. And
12
please listen carefully to what Dr. Anthony and Dr. Oki will
13
be presenting to you. Thank you.
14
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Howden.
15
Any questions to clarify the testimony of the
16
testifier himself?
17
Seeing none, thank you, Michael, for being here.
18
MR. HOWDEN: Thank you.
19
CHAIR VICTORINO: Mr. Victor Pellegrino. And he
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will be speaking on behalf of Hui 0 Na Wai Eha and
21
something -- I cannot read your writing. I apologize, sir.
22
I know you was my teacher, but your writing --
23
MR. PELLEGRINO: Noho'ana Farm.
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CHAIR VICTORINO: What was that?
25
MR. PELLEGRINO: Noho'ana Farm.
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CHAIR VICTORINO: Oh, Noho'ana Farms. Okay. Thank
2
you very much.
3
MR. PELLEGRINO: Good morning, Chair Victorino and
4
County Council Members. I'm here to ask you to do what is
5
right. The recent decision on Na Wai Eha water restoration
6
is a sham, a slap in the face of taro farmers and those who
7
know that a stream has a right to its own life. It is the
8
way nature intended.
9
For 150 years, Maui's streams have been raped by
10
large sugar companies and water barons. In recent
11
decision -- a recent decision, the Water Commission gave
12
Wai -- Waikapu and Iao Streams zero water. Is the State
13
Water Commission a political body or the people's adversary?
14
You recall I am an English professor. I gave the
15
Water Commission report an F. Maui's Iao Aquifer is nearing
16
salinity. A USGS study advises the best and cheapest way to
17
maintain the aquifer is to return stream flow. If the
18
streams continue to be dry and water is diverted for large
19
monocropping, the scenario for our children will be an
20
environmental disaster. All kalo farmers want to do is grow
21
food. Why can't they? Kalo farmers have been held hostage
22
by HC&S and Wailuku Water Company. These companies share
23
little, if nothing, and will continue until they are forced
24
to obey the already existing law which the DLNR and Water
25
Commission have refused to uphold.
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The Water Commission has favored big business and
2
nonsustainable companies, such as HC&S and Wailuku Water
3
Company. While they collect dollars for their
4
shareholders, nonsustainable and -- nonsustainable -- excuse
5
me. While they collect dollars for their shareholders, our
6
small sustainable farms are being choked dry of water,
7
prevented from providing healthy food, and earning an honest
8
living. Maybe HC&S should try to grow dry land sugar for
9
150 years so they can begin to understand the plight of kalo
10
farmers today who have waited six years for water
11
decision -- a water decision, which is now environmentally
12
inappropriate.
13
Next, we forgot history. The Na Wai Eha was the
14
largest contiguous kalo growing region in Hawaii. When the
15
Hawaiians lost their use of water, they lost their food,
16
their culture and their jobs by hundreds and hundreds and
17
hundreds. They are the victims of sugar gluttony. Does
18
Mr. Benjamin of HC&S need a lesson in Hawaiian history and
19
man's exploitation of the natural environment, taking the
20
water from the Hawaiians that was necessary to grow healthy
21
food and leaving them without jobs? I urge all of you to
22
read the 1978 State Constitution and Article -- Article 11,
23
Section 1, which provides all the information regarding the
24
rights of water for the people of Hawaii, not private
25
industry which is now taking our water.
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Water to be managed well must be taken out of the
2
hands of private enterprise and returned to the rightful
3
owners, the first owners being the dry stream beds. The dry
4
stream beds own the water. And the second owner is the
5
people of Hawaii. Instead of executing the environment,
6 maybe we need to rid our County of HC&S and Wailuku Water
7
Company and put the water in the hands of sustainable
8
farmers. They will keep Maui green. Aloha.
9
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Pellegrino, for
10
your testimony.
11
Any questions for clarification of the testimony as
12
presented by the testifier?
13
Seeing none, thank you for your due diligence,
14
Mr. Pellegrino.
15
MR. PELLEGRINO: Okay. And as a final invitation,
16
I've always asked the County Council Members to come up to
17
my farm. I would like to see -- have you see our dry lo'i.
18
We have two and a quarter acres of dry land. So anytime,
19
please call me, come up to Noho'ana Farm and find out what's
20
real. Thank you.
21
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Pellegrino.
22
Next testifier will be Mr. Dain Kane. He's also
23
testifying on WR-1, followed by Mr. Edward Smith. Mr. Kane
24
is testifying on his behalf.
25
MR. KANE: Chair and Members, good morning. Thank
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26you for allowing me this opportunity to testify. My name is
Dain Kane and I live in Wailuku and I'm testifying on behalf
of myself.
I'm a small farmer in Wailuku. I live and farm in
a County approved agricultural subdivision, specifically it
was approved back in 1998 by a previous sitting body. A few
of you Members were sitting on that body when that
agricultural subdivision was approved. Currently, we have a
private water system. However, I'm here to testify because
who knows what the outcome will be regarding Na Wai Eha. I
might end up being a water user from the County. So I'm
here to testify as a farmer who may be impacted by what you
folks are referring to today on Item 1(1) for the Water
Resources Committee.
I'm going to reference my testimony on the June 8th
memorandum from Mr. Kushi, Corporation Counsel. I guess one
point I'd like to ask for in your discussion -- not now, but
in your discussion is to ask Mr. Kushi to be specific in
their concerns as to why they're not signing off as to form
a legality of the specific section that is cited on that
cover page. I'll walk through the sections, Members, so
that you can follow along if -- if -- if you'd like to.
Section 1, the ag consumer, regarding the minimum
annual income. I'm in agreement with Mr. Rezents, as well
as other testifiers. I -- I believe that the $2500 figure
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may be too high, and that the $1,000 figure, I think, is
2
something that's adequate. Keep in mind that there's other
3
departments that are dealing with ag. Department of
4
Planning, Department of Taxation all deal with that figure.
5
Personally, I made $7,500 -- just over $7,500 on my
6
apple banana. Last year I grew just over 10,000 pounds,
7
which, in a 40-pound box, if I piled it up in this room, I'd
8
probably fill up the whole side of this room with what I
9
grow. And so a $10,000 figure, let alone a $30,000 figure
10
that has been previously discussed and considered
11
illegitimate -- or whatever the term was used in the
12
previous discussion -- I find interesting. But the reality
13
is 10,000 pounds of bananas is -- is -- I don't think is
14
illegitimate. So I would ask you folks to consider the
15
lower figure.
16
Tied into that, if you folks don't consider the
17
lower figure, then jumping over to Section 3, under
18
Section -- it's on page 3 of your document, a nonprofit
19
organization may qualify for ag water rates. As far as the
20
agricultural charitable donations component, I don't see.
21
And so I know that this is only talking about what -- well,
22
let me be clear on -- I'll give you an example.
23
I'm the producer. I have 200 pounds of banana. I
24
deliver it to the store and the store tells me, you know
25
what, Dain, slow. So I only get 100 pounds I can take. So
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28I stuck with 100 pounds. What I gonna do with that 100
pounds? So what if I want to go deliver it to Wailuku
Hongwanji Preschool, or if I want to go deliver it -- as
long as they give me something that shows legitimately that
I'm giving as a charitable donation, why wouldn't I be
credited with that towards the minimum amount that you folks
are discussing? So please consider that in your -- in your
deliberations, Members.
The only other thing I would talk to -- and I'm
running out of time, sir, so I'll be very brief. All I ask
is that in Section 2, subsection b, is there consistency of
the requirements to other departments that the Water
Department is asking for in this? There's three items
specifically that are being requested for. Make sure that
there's consistency in what's being requested because it's
just a nightmare to have consistency with what taxation asks
for; plans and this and that. Department of Planning asks
for various things to prove that you're doing ag. And now
with Water, you're also being asked to do -- provide that.
So please do the homework before you make the
decision because you might make it even more difficult than
simplified for us guys who are doing ag. Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you very much, Mr. Kane.
Any questions for the testifier for clarification?
Yes, Mr. Nishiki.
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29COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yeah. Dain, you mentioned
that in your explanation of 100 pounds donated to a
nonprofit, they give you a paper that states what?
MR. KANE: And if I may, Mr. Chair, just to
clarify. What I'm saying is in your document that you folks
have as the June 8th, in there, there's a section that talks
about a nonprofit organization may qualify for ag water
rates for a given year by submitting annual written
application --
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Right.
MR. KANE: -- copy filed as well, showing an
organization's annual agricultural charitable donations. My
request specifically is for you to consider that it not be
limited to just nonprofit organizations. It would be me,
the private farmer, who has excess produce who would like to
get credit for donating that to something that's going-- I
consider it legit if I donate it to a preschool where you
got preschool children eating bananas, or whatever produce
being donated to whatever group that's going to benefit from
that.
I'm just saying, Mr. Nishiki, if there could be
consideration of that. And as long as I can prove for --
you folks are asking for Federal Tax Returns, you're asking
for all kinds of stuff -- that there at least be something
there that recognizes or identifies that type of donation
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from me, the producer, to a -- an entity that would accept
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it and provide it to whoever they -- they provide it for.
3
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Okay, yeah.
4
MR. KANE: And so just for discussion, you guys.
5
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: I guess -- yeah. That's
6
under the waiver. But it would probably have to be dealt
7
with under your income.
8
MR. KANE: I agree, yes.
9
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: When you file -- when you
10
get that nonprofit and they give you that money they give
11
you that says -- is there a worth? Does it -- do you have
12
to show what it's worth?
13
MR. KANE: I would say yes. They -- they can
14
provide you something. Now, they wouldn't provide the
15
worth. The worth would probably be determined by -- whether
16
it's the Federal Government has some -- someplace. Yeah,
17
IRS or someplace else.
18
And just to give you an example, Mr. Nishiki, it
19
will be very brief. Apple banana, wholesale, 50 cents to a
20
dollar range. Yeah, it depends on the quality of the
21
product. So halfway, 75 cents. If I donate 1,000 pounds in
22
a given year, then why wouldn't I be given a credit of $750
23
of donate -- charitable donation. And I'm doing it because
24
the banana not going to wait for me or going to wait for
25
supply and demand, you know, for selling the bananas. You,
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as the store guy, tell me I cannot take your banana, what am
2
I going to do?
3
So that's why I'm asking you folks to consider
4
that. That way, you know, if you're going to get focused in
5
on the dollar amount, if you're going to go higher than the
6
thousand -- or even not. But whatever number you folks
7
decide, at least consider that as part of the minimum that
8
you're going to require to qualify to -- for the water rate.
9
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Right. You would take it
10
as a -- probably as a deduction in your taxes?
11
MR. KANE: Correct.
12
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Now, if you could show it,
13
that it was worth that much and that would be in addition to
14
whatever you sell as a separate piece of paper?
15
MR. KANE: That is correct. Yes, sir.
16
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And finally, you mentioned
17
about you maybe have to go onto the County waterline because
18
maybe of the Na Wai Eha decision. Do you -- does that ag
19
subdivision get water from the Waikapu or the Iao intake?
20
MR. KANE: And forgive me, I -- I should know. But
21
off the top of my head, it's a private -- it's a private --
22
we're under Wailuku -- we have -- Wailuku Country Estates
23
has a private water company that has a contract with Wailuku
24
Water Company. And so we will be impacted somehow at some
25
point negatively, positively, who knows.
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32
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The reason I'm here to testify and I made that
2
point is because personally I'm not impacted by this right
3
now because I'm not asking for water use from the County.
4
Because I think we're in the context of this being County
5
water, yeah, for ag? But I am not. But I'm here to testify
6
because I believe for public good as well as me might get
7
impacted personally, I think if I end up -- if a scenario
8
occurs where I can no longer get private water and I have to
9
come to the County to get my water to continue my farming
10
operation, then this becomes something that personally
11
impacts me and my livelihood.
12
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Thank you.
13
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
14
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
15
Any other questions for the testifier?
16
Seeing none, thank you.
17
MR. KANE: Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Members.
18
CHAIR VICTORINO: Next testifier is Mr. Ed --
19 Edward Smith. And better known from the Upcountry Advisory
20
Committee. Good morning, Smitty.
21
MR. SMITH: Good morning, everybody.
22
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Good morning.
23
MR. SMITH: Chair Victorino, Molina, Baisa. My
24
name is Smitty from Pukalani, Maui, Hawaii. I'm here today
25
to speak on the general issues here. As you all know, the
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33
1
problems we are having is old, very, very old history, bad
2
history that is still with us today. And this bad history
3
comes in many different forms.
4
We've heard testimony from Kane and several other
5
people about the small guy, the farmers, or those who have
6
attempted to do farming on land, agricultural land that they
7
bought as I did way back in the '60s from Frank Munoz, land
8
that was zoned Agricultural RU-5, and it's still
9
agricultural land. But because of these water problems,
10
some of us couldn't even get off the ground. We couldn't
11
even get to first base without a baseball bat. And this is
12
back from 1964, 1965 to this present date. I think this is
13
ridiculous, this -- this bad history of hanging on, hanging
14
on to our (inaudible) this long, not giving us the
15
opportunity to do what we all need to do in life. And
16
that's to feed ourselves, our friends, and our family
17
members, and like Kane says, to give away to other people
18
that's in need.
19
I started off -- I'll give you an example. We've
20
heard Kane's problems and some of the member's here. I -- I
21
started off -- I started off buying land from Frank Munoz,
22
one acre. And I had a lot of other land available to me,
23
agricultural land Upcountry. Four acres up -- up to eight
24
acres. I start off, I was getting agricultural water rates.
25
Then when Elmer Cravalho was Mayor, we had a bad drought, as
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34we get every single year. Like I said, bad history. My --
my water meter was yanked off the property and with
livestock on the property.
I was hauling water with a kid's -- a toy -- a red
wagon, going all the way down the street to my
father-in-law's house to haul water back up to the property
in five-gallon plastic buckets to feed the horse, the billy
goats, the pigs, and everything else I had. Then that
was -- that was bad enough. But the -- the problems
compounded. They took away my agriculture rates because of
that, after they took my water meter out. And till this
day, I have not been able to use the land that I bought the
land for.
Molina's dad here raised chickens up in Upcountry.
That paid for him to go to school, college and everything
else. That was great. That's what it's all about; using
the land to feed yourself, to make a little money, to send
your children to school, to buy medicine, exactly what you
need, what you personally need for yourself and your family
members. A lot of people cannot do this because we have a
problem with some people that are greedy on the island of
Maui. That's the plantation.
I read in the newspaper, they made over 18 -- I
think it was $18.3 million profit after all their expenses
last year. They're not losing money. They're not losing
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35money. They have a -- they have a -- they have a -- a
central water supply that they say would be too costly to
bring back online. With $18 million, they can bring
anything back online.
So my main (inaudible) -- my main issues here was I
heard from some of our members last night that the County
was thinking about taking this issue to court, this State's
Water Commission to court. I hope you folks all -- it's
thinking of going in that direction. Take this to court and
get it over with. Hey, from 1964, I bought land Upcountry.
The problem is still with us, and it will be with us for the
next generation. Hey, this is too much. We had it. We
folks are -- you folks -- the water should be controlled --
these water issues should be decided on by our County
Government, not somebody up in the State building. This is
our water.
Just like they're thinking of putting up windmills
on the top of our mountain and give -- taking the
electricity to feed Honolulu. That's our wind. That's our
mountain. They want -- they want -- they want their wind
towers, put 'em on their mountain. Leave us alone. Don't
decide for us. We have our Government. You people here are
our Government.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Mr. Smith?
MR. SMITH: We need you folks to make the decisions
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36for us.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Can you conclude, please.
MR. SMITH: It's concluded. Anybody have any
questions?
CHAIR VICTORINO: Let -- let me handle that part.
Can I ask the question? Okay.
MR. SMITH: Sure.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Smith. Okay. You
like my job? Please, one moment.
MR. SMITH: You not fired.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
Any questions for the testifier for clarification
purposes?
Thank you, Mr. Smith, very much. Appreciate it.
MR. SMITH: Have a good day.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Before I introduce the next
testifier, I'd like to recognize -- and I apologize.
Earlier, I failed to say that he was excused, that he'd be a
little bit late. But I'd like to recognize our Budget and
Finance Chair and the Vice-Chair of this Committee,
Mr. Joseph Pontanilla.
VICE-CHAIR PONTANILLA: Good morning.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Pontanilla.
Okay. So moving right along with testimony on WR-1
will be Mr. William Jacintho. And he'll be speaking on
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37behalf of the Maui Cattlemen's Association, followed by Lyn
Scott.
MR. JACINTHO: Good morning, Council Members. My
name is William Jacintho. I'm a lifelong resident of Kula
and a fourth-generation farmer and rancher, with another
ag-related day job, while my wife works the farm full-time.
I'm also the President of the Maui Cattlemen's Association,
as well as a member of other agriculture-related
organizations.
I've had the opportunity to discuss my concern with
Member Victorino on two occasions. And he has been very
understanding of the livestock concerns. I'm here today to
represent the many people who are unable or don't want to be
here to testify about the issue. And I must say, I myself
don't want to be here. But we farmers on the bottom need
representation. These are the beginning farmers, the
ranchers, and the ones that's trying -- and the one that's
trying to pass it on.
According to the USDA Hawaii Agriculture
Statistics, Maui has 165 registered farmers that make
between 25,000 [sic] and $5,000; and 478 registered farmers
that make less than 25,000 [sic]. I do believe these 56
percent are legitimate farmers and ranchers. We're all
having a problem with the dollar amount required for the
proposed country, County ag water rate requirement. Those
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1
of us who do not make the requirement will not be able to
2
receive ag benefits. This is a cost that is four times the
3
amount and is very hard to swallow when you're trying your
4
best not to waste and to turn a profit.
5
In agriculture, farmers have their up years and
6
their down years. Between the farmers scrambling and an
7
appeal board looking for justification, we're all going to
8
waste a lot of time going crazy. It only complicates things
9
and will not achieve our goal. If we're to focus on ag
10
water -- focus ag water on ag-related things, then someone
11
has to physically see that that happens. They do this on
12
the mainland, and it works.
13
A dollar number will eliminate an appeal board. If
14
there needs to be a dollar figure, then $1,000 is what the
15
USDA uses to define a farm. And most farmers are used to
16
accepting that number. Thank you for your time.
17
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Jacintho. And,
18
Mr. Jacintho, you gave me part -- written testimony, which I
19
think you gave to everybody. And you said 25,000. I think
20
you met 2,500. Yeah?
21
MR. JACINTHO: That's what I meant.
22
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Good. Because I was all
23
nervous reading yours and I heard something --
24
MR. JACINTHO: You think you nervous?
25
CHAIR VICTORINO: Oh, thank you. I was scared for
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39a moment there. Okay. So you --
MR. JACINTHO: Thanks for correcting that. I feel
better now.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yeah, the figure is 2500 -- I
mean -- yeah, $2,500 to $5,000 was the 165 registered
farmers; and 5 -- 478 that make less than $2,500?
MR. JACINTHO: Correct.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you very much. I just want
to make sure that I -- we got those figures right.
MR. JACINTHO: Yeah. You have that too.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yeah.
MR. JACINTHO: That little page that we've gone
through.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yeah, thank you.
MR. JACINTHO: Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. I just wanted to make that
clarification, ladies and gentlemen.
Questions for the testifier? Yes, Ms. Baisa?
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Yes. Thank you, Chair.
And thank you, William, for being here this
morning. I know that you have another job and probably
would prefer to be here -- there. But it's really important
that we hear from people in the real world. And obviously,
you have a day job, but you also do cattle farming,
ranching?
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40MR. JACINTHO: And a nursery.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: And a nursery too. And based
on your personal experience, you think that the $1,000
figure is the best thing for us to do?
MR. JACINTHO: Honestly, the best thing would be
zero --
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Oh.
MR. JACINTHO: -- mainly because it's such a hassle
with the appeals. And I sat on the ag definition committee
for a year and a half. This is four or five years ago. And
we went over and over with different situations, different
battles from RPT -- everybody that has some kind of interest
or involvement. And it is very difficult. And I -- I just
see the appeals board going through the same thing. And
whether it's zero or a thousand, anybody can put a number
down. But at zero, you eliminate this whole appeal thing
because that's what's going to trigger it, the dollar
amount.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Okay. So if we take away
the -- the number --
MR. JACINTHO: Uh-huh.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: -- then what are the factors
you think we need in order to give this ag rate?
MR. JACINTHO: I think the same that's in, the
30,000 gallons, I feel that is adequate. I also feel if you
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41really want to be sure someone is using ag water for ag,
someone needs to physically go visit. Same like B&Bs,
whatever other problems the County had, somebody physically
had to go and check it out. I think that would be a lot
simpler, a lot less costly, more efficient thing to do
honestly.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Thank you very much for your
mana'o. I think you make a lot of common sense. Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you. Any other questions
for Mr. Jacintho?
Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Jacintho, very much.
MR. JACINTHO: Thank you very much.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Next testifier will be Lyn Scott,
followed by Rosemary Robbins. And Ms. Scott will be
testifying for herself.
MS. SCOTT: Good morning, everyone. Aloha
kakahiaka kakou.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
MS. SCOTT: Good morning. My name is Lyn Scott. I
come from Honopou in East Maui. And we are the litigants
contesting the HC&S's taking of water from East Maui
streams. I do let -- need to let you know that the IIFS
standard that was set in September of 2008 for Honopou
Stream has not been met. We have never had our 1.2 million
gallons a day, especially on a consistent basis.
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42For me, this pretty much impacts my life. I'm not
able to grow taro as I should. My water is not cold. We
don't have the 'o'opu in our stream. Our estuary at the end
is dying. We no longer have black crab. Fishing is very
poor. You know, taking all this water from the streams is
not going to help the watershed. That's not going to
protect it. Leaving something in the stream will. The
Commission on Water Resource Management I feel did not do
its job. As a matter of fact, I do have a conference call
with them today at 12:00 to discuss my issues with the
stream.
And I think what really needs to be done is to have
monies put back into this. Because right now, they are only
working with two persons on the Commission. And I think
there needs to be more help there. Because we've been
waiting all this time. And all this could have been done
within one year. So far, nothing has been done on the
Wailua Ditch. So the head waters from Honopou Stream has
never seen the ocean since 1932, and that's a big impact not
only on myself, my family, also our community. Because
other streams in East Maui have been diverted and no water
for ponds, such as Dog Pond out in Kailua, and things like
that. Local people have to come to our stream.
Sunday, driving up the road to come out to the
highway, there must have been at least 15 cars on our stream
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all inundating one pond. And if it's not that, it's our
2
other little, tiny pond that get sometimes about ten cars.
3
And that's a tiny, little pond, tinier than the base that
4
you sit on. I mean, what is our stream going to do? By the
5
time I get the water we get at the end, it's very little and
6
it's warm. People above me want to grow in ag. They're
7
applying. People below me want to grow taro. They're
8
applying. Where's our water? Where is that?
9
And by not leaving water in the stream, by not
10
taking action now, what will we have for our children in the
11
future? You know, it's not just Upcountry people coming to
12
swim in our ponds, it's everyone; Central Maui, HC&S kids,
13
Water Supply kids, my kids, my family, everybody. All of
14
Maui needs these. You know, tourists when they come,
15
they're out there. You don't see them swimming in the cane
16
fields or going out there taking pictures of the cane
17
fields. They're in East Maui. They want to go see these
18
things. And we need to protect these for our children.
19
And as far as an ag consumer goes, even though I
20
don't get water from the County, I'm still a consumer, I'm
21
still ag. I don't make money off of it because I take care
22
of my kupuna and the children and my community around me. I
23
thank you for the time. Any questions?
24
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Ms. Scott.
25
Questions for the testifier to clarify her
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testimony? Mr. Medeiros?
2
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Mahalo, Mr. Chairman.
3
And thank you for being here this morning. Aloha.
4
What -- what is the name of your stream?
5
MS. SCOTT: Honopou.
6
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Honopou. Okay. I'm
7
looking at the list of the streams. I don't see Honopou.
8
MS. SCOTT: Honopou was -- was set in the first
9
eight in 2008.
10
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Oh, okay. Okay.
11
MS. SCOTT: So I'm saying that you have this new
12
IIF standard that you want to meet, but yet my standards
13
haven't been met and I've been waiting two years.
14
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Okay. So your stream name
15
is Honopou?
16
MS. SCOTT: Yes, it is.
17
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Okay. Mahalo for your
18
testimony this morning.
19
Mahalo, Mr. Chairman.
20
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yes. Mr. Nishiki --
21
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yeah, clarification.
22
CHAIR VICTORINO: Hang on, Mr. Nishiki. Before I
23
do, my policy is to allow our Members to ask first, Voting
24
Members if I may, please. Ms. Baisa had her hand up at the
25
same time. So if I may let Ms. Baisa, then I'll go ahead
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and recognize you.
2
Go ahead, Ms. Baisa.
3
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Thank you very much, Chair.
4
But I would -- you know, I would defer. But it will be a
5
quick question.
6
CHAIR VICTORINO: Go ahead.
7
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Okay.
8
Thank you very much, Lyn, for being here. Just a
9
question on the little last statement you made at the end of
10
your testimony. And that was about this income requirement
11
that we're thinking of putting in this definition of ag
12
consumer. Are you saying also that you think that maybe not
13
having an income requirement is good? I -- I didn't quite
14
catch what you were saying.
15
MS. SCOTT: Yes.
16
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Okay. So you also feel that
17
there's other ways to determine ag besides income?
18
MS. SCOTT: Yes.
19
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Okay. Thank you.
20
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Ms. Baisa.
21
Mr. Nishiki?
22
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yes.
23
You mentioned, for clarification, that -- that 1.2
24
million gallons that some agency set, and then you use the
25
word has not been met?
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46MS. SCOTT: Yes.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Who is in control and
should be allowing that water to flow?
MS. SCOTT: You know, I did ask that question to
Ken Kawahara one day. I asked him who to complain to; CWRM,
NHLC that represents us, DAR, DLNR, or G-o-d? Actually, the
one that only really helped was God. So I don't really
know. As a matter of fact, I will be in a conference call
with the Commission today to see what has been done to
increase our water flow.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Let me ask you this. Is
there a diversion and who controls? And if it is, then who
controls that diversion?
MS. SCOTT: The diversions are the Wailua Ditch
diversion, new Hamakua Ditch diversion. There was the
Lowrie Ditch diversion, but they have since closed a feeder
to that. And the lowest one that affects us would be the
Haiku Ditch diversion, which is right below the Hana
Highway.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And who controls that? Is
there a human being that actually opens and shuts it?
MS. SCOTT: You could say that HC&S and East Maui
Irrigation would be able to close and open ditches. But if
there's -- all the water that we get that comes past that
point besides three pipes and what comes over the trough, if
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47you've ever seen that, everything else is filled in by
spring water. So if there's -- if you don't have any
streams flowing up in that area, our spring water will start
to deplete. And in the past months, our stream flow has
gone down.
I go out every day and I check the USGS visual
stream gauge, and I record that. And it's been going down
drastically every -- every week, every day.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: So this Kawahara gentleman
works for who, the State?
MS. SCOTT: The Commission on Resource --
Commission on Water Resource Management. He's the Deputy
Director.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Okay. And he was the one
that set those limits? So you -- so you think that he is
the one who needs to answer to that question?
MS. SCOTT: No, the Commission set that.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Right.
MS. SCOTT: They -- they -- the staff recommended
it, and they approved that. So it would be the Commission
and Laura Thielen, I guess.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Okay. I guess the concern
is why is not this -- have you complained?
MS. SCOTT: Yes. As a matter of fact, like I said,
I will be having a conversation with them today.
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COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And -- and finally --
2
MS. SCOTT: And we had a complaint, a formal
3
complaint also.
4
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And finally, you mentioned
5
about people coming and doing something around the water?
6
MS. SCOTT: We have --
7
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Who are these people and
8
what are they doing?
9
MS. SCOTT: Recreation. They come for swimming,
10
enjoying the ponds.
11
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Oh.
12
MS. SCOTT: We get tourists. We have local people,
13
families. We have a wide variety. We -- sometimes we have
14
Hike Maui. We have horseback riders coming through.
15
Because we're easily accessible, we're one gulch before Twin
16
Falls, and we do have the water, the local people want to
17
come there. They don't to have to deal with the tourists
18
out in Twin Falls, they don't want to have to drive father
19
out into the country where there's no water left in the
20
streams because you guys took it all.
21
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Thank you.
22
MS. SCOTT: You're welcome.
23
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
24
Any other questions for the testifier? Yes,
25
Mr. Medeiros?
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49COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Mahalo, Mr. Chairman just
a follow-up.
Is there a stream monitor that's part of DLNR?
MS. SCOTT: I'm not sure who that is right now. It
was Atta Morris. Morris Atta.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: I'm not sure of his name.
But I was aware that there was a stream monitor that
monitored -- or had the responsibility to monitor East Maui
streams.
MS. SCOTT: Yeah, we haven't seen him.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: So you're not familiar
with that person?
MS. SCOTT: No, he was given other administrative
duties, and we have not seen him. And he resides in Oahu,
which is one of our issues. You know, we had Mr. Ornellas
here from the DLNR.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Right.
MS. SCOTT: But he was also saddled with more
administrative work. So --
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Okay. Thank you for your
testimony.
Mahalo, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Scott.
MS. SCOTT: Thank you.
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50CHAIR VICTORINO: Next testifier, Rosemary Robbins.
And followed by Irene Bowie, who is the last testifier to
sign up. Anyone in the gallery who wishes to testify, I
would ask them to go to the lobby area and please sign up to
testify.
Ms. Robbins, go ahead.
MS. ROBBINS: Good morning.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Good morning.
MS. ROBBINS: I'm glad for the opportunity to be
here. Where to start? What I really want to know is where
do we finish this business on water so that we can get on to
doing more creative things with all of our natural
resources.
I would ask us to make sure that we be aware of
precedent, including the distribution fraction system that
has been going on for both the water down here and Upcountry
users. No wonder it's going to be contested. It's
unlawful. It kind of -- you know, my kids in school will
say, well, that's a no-brainer. Maybe from the mouths of
babes in there.
I would also make sure that we take care to
recognize that the children in school are not going to be
able to have as their first line of hearing is that it's
expensive to have contested hearings. That's our tax money
that's not going to other things that could be better spent.
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It's also expensive to have to comply with consent decrees.
2
We've got loads of precedent for that. It's not like what
3
if. We know that. So we need to be able to deal with that.
4
So if a Water Commission on the State level is
5
making decisions for us in our geography here and we don't
6
think those are necessarily the best decisions that are
7
being made, how can we make sure that we, as folks on Maui,
8
you folks who are elected and folks who are electing, get in
9
there and pitch for what's going to be good for us. So we
10
need to be aware about the precedence. We need to also be
11
aware about delaying in addressing -- well, addressing well
12
our water concerns.
13
Even though the County was supplied with Federal
14
monies of almost a half a million dollars in '04, which led
15
to the Upcountry Oversight and Advisory Committee. And Dain
16
Kane was one of the people that was involved in moving that
17
way back when. We're about to start FY 10/11. This is from
18
'04. We still do no have the Piiholo Water Treatment Plant
19
situation solved. We know it's contaminated. The reports
20
were very late in coming. So we need to not get into that
21
delay situation either. This was not Jeff Eng, but a
22
previous Water Director who, not only got that half million
23
dollars that the Oversight and Advisory Committee from the
24
EPA got for the County, the EPA also offered a Tribal Grant
25
that the previous Water Director just declined to take.
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52It's hard to explain that to people. Here's some
money to help you solve your problem. No thanks. It is a
problem. And we need to make sure that in view of the water
quality, quantity -- we're still talking about water here --
that Atrazine, et cetera, contaminated water in the wings in
volume is not a solution. So thank you much.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Ms. Robbins.
Questions for the testifier for clarification
purposes?
Seeing none, thank you, Ms. Robbins.
MS. ROBBINS: You're welcome.
CHAIR VICTORINO: And our last testifier to sign up
is Ms. Irene Bowie. And she is the Executive Director for
Maui Tomorrow.
MS. BOWIE: Good morning, Chair and Council
Members. I'm Irene Bowie, Executive Director of Maui
Tomorrow Foundation. I'm here today to talk on the instream
flow standards and -- and like some of the previous
testifiers, to express my dismay at the Commission's ruling
on Na Wai Eha. It was pretty much beyond belief and
incredibly ironic on a day when half the mountain is
burning. I don't know what we need to do to -- to really
start to pay attention to the water crises that we're in and
to look at this in a more holistic manner. We have one
department working on certain things, another department on
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certain things. And we've got to come together and we've
2
got to work on recharge. It's vital to restoring the
3
groundwater and it's all connected.
4
I'm -- I'm here to support the Board of Water
5
Supply's April 30th, 2010 letter to the Mayor and the
6
Council, their recommendations on Water Use Development.
7
And in particular, where they say, "We believe the" -- "the
8
maintenance and protection of watershed areas, restoration
9
of streams and wastewater recycling should be both a part of
10
independent components considered in all strategies and as
11
the top priority strategy in the plan. We recommend a
12
continued aggressive planning and implementation programs,
13
including adding a Department of Water Supply staff for leak
14
detection and repair."
15
I'd like to just remind everyone that 13 million
16
gallons a day of wastewater is put into the injection wells
17
in Maui County. We only reuse 20 percent of that.
18
Meanwhile, we have HC&S with 12 -- with 9 to 12 million
19
gallons a day being lost through a leaky ditch system. So
20
what's wrong with this? There's a lot of water here and
21
we're throwing it away. It's just -- it's mind boggling.
22
I'd also like to mention the -- the Board of Water
23
Supply's recommendation about small reservoirs. I think
24
that makes a lot of sense, and where they mention also
25
considering a Waihee Treatment Plant, along with Waiale.
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54Again, the R-1 Water -- right here, I have a report to the
Water Commission, a 2004 water report that talks about
reuse. And why we're not moving forward? I mean, we keep
hearing from the Department of Environmental Management that
we don't have the money. It seems like we need to find
that. We need to go forward with Federal grants, anybody
that could possibly help us find the money for this.
And then lastly, I would just say that we are on a
slippery slope with this water privatization. And where the
Board of Water Supply recommends the County Government's
potential use of eminent domain to take ownership and
stewardship of any and all water delivery systems throughout
Maui County. Instead, we have Wailuku Water Company that is
holding Na Wai Eha for future land and water development.
And water is a public trust. And we implore this Council to
do everything that they can to get us on the right track,
help us reuse the water, get the departments talking, help
us in this restoration of stream flow. Because the drought
continues, fires are becoming more and more commonplace.
And meanwhile, we're throwing water away. Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Ms. Bowie.
Questions for the testifier to clarify her
testimony?
Seeing none, thank you, Ms. Bowie.
MS. BOWIE: Thank you.
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55CHAIR VICTORINO: Our last testifier is Ms. Gina
Flammer. And Ms. Flammer will be speaking on her behalf.
MS. FLAMMER: Hello. I'm Gina Flammer. I did get
to catch some of the earlier discussion, so I ran down so I
could share just a little bit of information.
I did hear some discussion about the income uses
for ag water rates. And I did want to share that some of
the other departments, when you look at real property tax
and the Planning Department's farm plans, they don't use
income as a definition of farming. They use proof of
farming requirements. And what they require is an
application that shows a site plan, shows photos and
descriptions of the actual farming. And what they do is
they have someone who can stay in their office, read an
application, and from that application, be able to determine
if there is farming going on. And if it's a case where you
can't really tell, they'll go out and do a site visit. But
they don't have to expend the resources to do that for every
single case. So I wanted to share that with you.
So if -- high income rates that would make it
easier, but it would also hurt a lot of the farmers. If
you're going to do no income rate or have a low income rate
of $1,000, you're probably going to want more proof in your
application and have it be more thorough. And that would
take a commitment on the Department of Water Supply to have
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56some more training. They'd have to redo their application.
They'd have to be able to go through it fairly quickly. But
it could be done. The other two departments do do that. So
that's all I wanted to say. Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Ms. Flammer, for that
clarification. I do appreciate it.
Questions for the testifier?
Seeing none, thank you very much, Gina, for coming
down.
Ms. Flammer was the last testifier to sign up. I
will offer one more opportunity for anyone in the gallery
who has not testified and would like to testify, I will
allow that.
Seeing no rush to the podium, with no objections,
I'm going to ask the Committee to close public testimony at
this time.
COUNCIL MEMBERS: No objections.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you very much.
...END OF PUBLIC TESTIMONY...
CHAIR VICTORINO: What we'll do, ladies and
gentlemen, we'll take a ten-minute break. We'll let the --
we'll get ready for the presentation, give you some time for
your personal needs, and then we'll get started with Mr. Oki
and Mr. Anthony as far as their presentation. And then
we'll have a Q and A after that. And then we'll go into the
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1
direct work of the Committee itself.
2
So this Committee will stand in recess until 10 --
3
I'm going to make it 10:30. I'm going to be really
4
generous, 10:30. ...(gavel)....
5
RECESS: 10:16 a.m.
6
RECONVENE: 10:32 a.m.
7
CHAIR VICTORINO: ...(gavel)... The meeting of the
8
Water Resources Committee will convene. I thank you for
9
that break. Now we are all set up for the presentation.
10
ITEM NO. 13: INSTREAM FLOW DIVERSIONS AND STANDARDS (C.C.
11
No. 09-317)
12
CHAIR VICTORINO: At this time, I would like to
13
turn it over to Mr. Stephen Anthony, the Director of the
14
USGS Pacific Islands Water Science Center; and Mr. Delwyn
15
Oki, a hydrologist from the USGS.
16
Gentlemen, go ahead.
17
MR. ANTHONY: Can you -- is that on? Okay. Good.
18
Chairman and Council Members, thank you for the
19
opportunity to speak to you today about this study that
20
we've been conducting over -- what has it been, a four-year
21
study? Just about a four-year study. And the Maui Water
22
Department; the County Council, through providing funds to
23
the Maui Office of Economic Development; as well as OHA; and
24
the Commission on Water Resource Management were all
25
contributors to this study.
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58And I guess at this time, I'll turn it over to
Delwyn, who was the project chief for this effort. And
he'll share with you our findings and answer any questions
that you have.
CHAIR VICTORINO: And, Members, if it is all right
with you, we'd like to go through the presentation, hold
your questions until after the presentation is completed.
We'll lift the screen and then we'll turn it over. They
will be sitting right up front here, and you can present
your questions at that point.
Go ahead, Mr. Oki.
NOTE: COMPUTER-GENERATED PRESENTATION.
MR. OKI: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Before I start, I just want to mention that we do
have a published report. We do have a published report
that's currently available online. We -- we also have
printed copies that will arrive, I think, next week. And so
we can make those available. We'll send you a box, if you
want.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
MR. OKI: Okay. So let's begin here.
I'm pretty sure we're all aware of where the Na Wai
Eha Streams are. It include the four streams shown in
this -- in this figure. Waihee River is the largest of the
four in terms of stream flow, followed -- followed by Iao
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1
Stream. Waikapu is the only one of the four streams that
2
drains to the southern coast.
3
The -- the problems that's been going on regarding
4
the waters of Na Wai Eha is that there are a number of
5
competing beneficial uses for that water. And these uses
6
are not necessarily entirely compatible. Some of the uses
7
require flows to be in the stream. Some of the uses require
8
water to be removed from the stream.
9
This is a -- a brief outline of some of the
10
significant events that have happened in Na Wai Eha. For
11
over a century, about 16 million gallons or so has been
12
diverted from these four streams. The Commission on Water
13
Resource Management, back in December of 1988, first
14
established interim instream flow standards for these four
15
streams which, essentially, allowed status quo to continue.
16
Because of the competing beneficial uses for the
17
water, because of this competition, in December of 2007 a
18
contested hearing -- contested case hearing was initiated.
19
Back about a year -- a year or so ago in April 2009, the
20
hearings officer put out a proposed decision on the -- on
21
the contested case. And just last week, the State
22
Commission on Water Resource Management finalized the
23
decision. And I'll provide some information on that.
24
Okay. Each one of these streams -- and it's --
25
it's a little dark up here, in here. But each one of these
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1
streams has a number of yellow dots on there that represent
2
locations of current diversion intakes. Each one of the
3
streams has at least three of these diversions that
4
currently exist. The numbers shown next to some of the
5
yellow dots indicate some of the estimated diversion
6
capacities back a few years ago, a couple of years ago.
7
These diversion intakes typically are between elevations of
8
about 250 to 1100 feet.
9
Okay. I'm going to try to play this. This is a --
10
an example of one of the diversions. And this one happens
11
to be one of the intakes for the Waihee Ditch. These are
12
very efficiently engineered diversion intakes. You can see
13
that the stream basically disappears into this intake grate.
14
And as you look downstream, it basically has captured all of
15
the water. And there's my favorite part with the dog.
16
Okay. So that's the downstream reach.
17
Okay. So one -- one of the issues that's
18
associated with the diversion is that it does leave some of
19
the stream reaches downstream of the intakes dry. These are
20
a couple of photographs that we had from a mounted camera in
21
Iao Stream, bound near -- relatively close to the coast.
22
You can see on the left photograph is a condition when flow
23
was partially restored to the stream. And then on the right
24
is a photograph of a typically diverted condition when
25
the -- when the streambed is essentially dry. And what we
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1
found from our -- our photographic information -- we have
2
these cameras shooting every hour. We found that based on
3
the available photographs that we had, it was dry at least
4
two-thirds of the time in some of these streams.
5
Okay. So as I mentioned, the State Commission on
6
Water Resource Management, back in April of 2009, had a
7
proposed interim instream flow standards. And that was
8
finalized just last week. What I've plotted here on the
9
left -- left side or left map are the -- first, are the
10
initial proposed instream flow standards. And you can see
11
the numbers next to the triangles are locations where the
12
flow standards were set. And the numbers represent the flow
13
standards in million gallons per day. So, for instance, in
14
Waihee River near the coast, they set a -- they proposed an
15
instream flow standard of 10 million gallons per day.
16
When you go back to the -- the final decision now,
17
which was just announced last week, the -- the interim
18
instream flow standard was set at 6 million gallons per day.
19
The one thing that they did also do was in the initial
20
proposal, they had set interim instream flow standards for
21
both Iao Stream and Waikapu Stream. But in the final
22
decision, what they did was they essentially set it equal to
23
status quo. So the existing diversions were allowed to
24
continue in this instance. They did, however, set interim
25
instream flow standards for Waiehu Stream and Waihee River.
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62Although, the final interim instream flow standards are less
than what was initially proposed by the hearings officer in
2009.
Okay. So a brief description of our study was
about a three-and-a-half year cooperative study. As Steve
mentioned, it involved a number of Government agencies that
contributed to this study. The objective was to estimate
the effects of the existing diversions on a number of
things, including stream flow, groundwater recharge, habitat
for the native fauna, and also stream temperature, which I'm
not going to be talking about today. But I will be talking
about the first three items.
Ultimately, the purpose of our study was to
generate information that water managers could use to
establish the instream flow stream standard. I don't think
this information would necessarily all be used because the
decision came out just recently and a report hadn't been out
that long. There's probably some other reasons why it
wasn't used too, but I -- I won't really talk about that.
But I do want to say that and emphasize that our
study does not recommend an instream flow standard, and it
also doesn't do a number of other things. I mean, the list
is infinite, obviously. And I've listed here a few things.
So it's important to keep in mind that we don't make any
recommendation on an instream flow standard. We don't
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1
address the water requirements, for instance, for taro
2
cultivation or for sugar cane cultivation. We don't address
3
water requirements to maintain aesthetics or -- or
4
recreational areas either.
5
Okay. We -- we do have a couple of active stream
6
gauging stations on -- on both Iao Stream and Waihee River.
7
And the data that we collect at these two gauging stations
8
are actually accessible in -- in nearly real-time on the
9
Internet. And what these gauging stations do is record what
10
the stream flow is pretty much on a continuous basis. These
11
gauges were instrumental in our assessment of the effects of
12
diversions on the flow characteristics in these streams.
13
Back in the early part of the 1900s, we also
14
operated a couple of -- or a few gauging stations on Waiehu
15
Stream and Waikapu Stream. And I use those data to help me
16
also estimate some of the flow characteristics in those
17
streams. We also had to make some miscellaneous discharge
18
measurements at places where we don't have existing gauging
19
stations. And that was to kind of supplement our
20
information to allow us to estimate changes in stream flow
21
as you go downstream, for instance.
22
Okay. I need to briefly describe a couple of ways
23
we look at the data. And this -- what I plotted here is a
24
typical -- what we call a hydrograph. It's a plot of the
25
flow on the vertical scale and time on the horizontal scale.
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So this is from -- I believe it was from Waihee River. And
2
you can see how the flow goes up and down according to the
3
rainfall, essentially. But we can characterize the flow.
4
It's a little difficult to see here, but there's a
5
horizontal line going -- kind of a gentle horizontal line
6
going through this graph. And what this horizontal line
7
represents is the median flow.
8
Okay. So the median flow -- we are all kind of
9
familiar with what a median home cost is. They use that
10
because they don't want to include all the -- the extremely
11
expensive homes because that kind of biases or skews the --
12
what the typical home price would be. So you can do the
13
same thing with stream flow. You can describe a median
14
stream flow, which is essentially the value that kind of
15
demarcates the middle of the data. By that, I mean half of
16
the flows would be above that pink line, and the other half
17
of the flows would be below that pink line.
18
This is the median flow, which we otherwise call
19
the Q50. It's a little bit dim here. But the 50 represents
20
that it's equal or exceeded 50 percent of the time. Okay.
21
So we can define other types of flow characteristics in a
22
similar fashion. And what I've shown here is the Q90 flow.
23
So what the Q90 flow represents is the flow that's equal or
24
exceeded 90 percent of the time. So 90 percent of the --
25
the flow hydrograph, the blue line you see above is -- is
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65above that pink line, the Q90 line, and ten percent of the
values are below the Q90 line. So as you go from the Q50 to
the Q90, you're talking about decreasing the flow. Even
though this number, this percentile number goes up, you're
actually talking about a lower flow.
Okay. So let -- let's kind of put this in a little
bit of context here. On the right, I've plotted the final
interim instream flow standards that the Water Commission
recently established. So 10 million gallons per day for
Waihee River near one of the intakes, and 6 down near the
coast; 1.6 million gallons per day in north Waihee Stream;
.9 in south Waiehu Stream; and 1.3 million gallons per day
in Waiehu Stream, downstream of the confluence of the north
and south forks.
We can contrast that to what the median flows would
be in the absence of any diversion. So essentially, this
would be the natural flows that you would expect if there
were no diversions in place. As you can see, the -- the
interim instream flow standards are substantially less than
what the median flows in these streams are for both Waihee
River and Waiehu Stream. And I've also plotted here what
the median flows would be for Iao Stream and Waikapu Stream
for your reference. Okay. So that was the Q50.
This is the Q90. Again, the Q90 is a smaller flow
which represent the flow that's equal or exceeded 90 percent
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of the time. So only 10 percent of the time would you
2
expect the lower flow than the Q90. And again, on the
3
right, I've plotted the interim instream flow standards that
4
were established back a week ago. And you can contrast the
5
Q90 flows for Waihee River. They're still quite a bit
6
higher than the flow standards set by the Water Commission.
7
But if you go to Waiehu Stream, you can see that some of the
8
numbers that -- the flow standards are indeed higher than
9
the Q90 flow.
10
So for Waiehu Stream, the instream flow standards
11
for some of these locations are between the Q50 and the Q90.
12
They're between the median flow and the flow that I've shown
13
here, the Q90 flow. Okay. So that's to kind of put things
14
in context.
15
One of the aspects of our study, then -- the first
16
aspect of our study was to kind of characterize the effects
17
of diversions on stream flow characteristics, okay. So what
18
I've -- what I've put in a table here is listing the median,
19
or Q50 stream flows near the coast in each one of the
20
streams. First of all, in the middle column here, I've
21
listed the undiverted or natural flows that you would expect
22
in the absence of any diversions, 32 million gallons per day
23
near the coast in Waihee River. Waikapu Stream we estimate
24
that it's probably not -- you're not going to have flow
25
under median flow conditions.
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1
Now, in the extreme right column, I've -- I've
2
listed what the median flows at the same sites near the
3
coast would be under existing diverted conditions, provided
4
that the diversions do not return any water -- or none of
5
that diverted water is returned back to the stream. And in
6
some cases, water is returned.
7
For instance, in Waihee River, water -- some of the
8
taro growers do return some of the water back to the river.
9
And that actually results in some flow down at the coast.
10
But if no -- if none of that water was returned, we'd expect
11
to see a median flow of zero in Waihee River near the coast.
12
For Waiehu Stream, it would be less than 1.3 million gallons
13
per day. And both Iao and Waikapu on the existing diverted
14
conditions would be zero.
15
Okay. Now, that was just for kind of the existing
16
conditions. But we -- we also wanted to provide some
17
information to allow water managers to assess the
18
ramifications of what their decision is. So I provided this
19
one example -- an example here. There are two existing
20
diversions on -- main diversions on Waihee River. The
21
upstream diversions shown right here at the arrow is the
22
upstream diversion at -- and it's -- dumps into the Waihee
23
Ditch. And there's a downstream diversion shown here in
24
this photograph. This is for the Spreckels Ditch.
25
And then what I wanted to do was to look at how
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68these two upstream diversions would affect flow at the
coast, okay, for different -- for different configurations
of these diversions. Okay. So again, the -- the upstream
diversion is shown here. It's Waihee Ditch. And the
downstream diversion shown here is Spreckels Ditch.
And I've shown a plot here, which is a little bit confusing
to look at. But I'll try to explain it as best I can.
On this vertical access, what I plotted is the
capacity of the Spreckels Ditch shown here in this
photograph in million gallons per day. So if you increase
the capacity, you're going up on the graph. And the
horizontal access, I plotted the capacity of the upstream
diversion, which is the Waihee Ditch shown here in this
photograph. Okay. Now, let me give you an example of how
this graph might be used.
Okay. So the Commission on Water Resource
Management set an instream flow standard near the coast of 6
million gallons per day. Okay. So what these blue lines
represent, then, are lines of equal flow near the coast, or
equal median flow near the cost. Okay. So -- and there's
an infinite number of combinations that -- of diversion
capacities for the Waihee Ditch and Spreckels Ditch that you
could potentially have. And I've shown here one example.
And in this particular example, I've set the --
hypothetically set the capacity of the Waihee Ditch to 20
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1
million gallons per day, and the capacity of Spreckels Ditch
2
at 6 million gallons per day.
3
So if you use those two capacities, you come at
4
this point right here, which falls on this line, which is
5
the final interim instream flow standard for Waihee Ditch of
6
6 million gallons per day. So anywhere along this blue line
7
labeled 6, you will get 6 million gallons per day median
8
flow near the coast, or you're expected to get 6 million
9
gallons per day as your median flow near the coast. So any
10
number, any combination of its capacity for these two
11
ditches that fall along this line will give you 6 million
12
gallons per day as a median flow near the coast. Okay. So
13
this is just one example. You could shoot for a higher or
14
lower flow by following on one of these other kind of
15
parallel-looking lines.
16
Okay. So that -- that was an example if you want
17
to maintain a Q50 flow, the median flow. But there are
18
other possible things that -- flow characteristics that
19
might be important. For instance, the Q70 flow, which is
20
the flow that's equal or exceeded 70 percent of the time; or
21
the Q90 flow, again, this is a lower flow. It's a flow
22
that's equal to or exceeded 90 percent of the time.
23
So our report has a series of these graphs, one --
24
one for each stream that quantifies what types of flows you
25
might be expected to get at the coast given different
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70combinations or different capacities of the various
diversions on each stream. Okay. So that was the first
part of the study was to kind of characterize and quantify
the effects of -- of diversions on stream flow.
The second phase was to look at effects of
diversions on groundwater recharge, which is something that
should be of particular interest to the County Department of
Water Supply. What we did was we were notified by Wailuku
Water Company when they were going to be doing some ditch
maintenance activities, during which they would be
temporarily restoring water back to these streams. And we
used that as kind of an opportunity for us to measure how
the stream flow would behave as you go in a downstream
direction.
So what I've shown here is one particular example
of what we call a seepage run, which is a series of stream
flow measurements along the course of a stream. This one
happens to be -- and it's a little difficult to see. But
these measurements were made -- these four measurements here
were made along north Waiehu Stream. And you can see as you
go down stream toward the ocean, the stream flow is
decreasing. Okay. So that water is -- is seeping into the
stream bed and potentially contributing to the underlying
aquifer and contributing to the groundwater recharge.
Okay. Now, I'll just explain this very briefly.
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71The Waiehu Stream gets water from both the south fork and
the north forks of Waiehu. And so that's why you see that
in the north -- north Waiehu Stream, we had a flow of .94
million gallons per day up here. As you go downstream,
below the confluence of north and south Waiehu Streams, the
flow actually went up. And that's because water was
contributed from the south Waiehu Stream to this point.
But as you go further downstream along Waiehu Stream, you
can see it drops from 1.45 to about 1 million gallons per
day. So you're getting additional loss along this stream
reach of Waiehu Stream.
Okay. So what I -- what I did first was then to
try to characterize what the recharge would be if no
diversions were in place. Okay. So this would essentially
be the best-case scenario of what recharge you could get in
the absence of any diversions. Okay. So you can see the
numbers I've plotted above each stream represent the
recharge you could potentially get in million gallons per
day. And that recharge would generally be distributed along
these red lines that I've shown, which we identified as
being the reaches that water is -- seeps into the streambed.
Okay. So under natural conditions, you would -- you would
get, you know, more than 10 million gallons per day if you
add these three -- four numbers up.
Okay. So with the existing diversions in their
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1
existing configurations, what I did next, then, was to look
2
at how much of an effect these diversions are having on --
3
on the recharge. And this table lists the reduction in
4
recharge that you would be expected to see in each one of
5
the four Na Wai Eha streams, given the diversion intakes at
6
their existing configuration and also assuming that none of
7
the diverted water is returned back to the stream. Again,
8
this is kind of an extreme assumption because, in some
9
cases, water is indeed returned back to the stream and will
10
potentially contribute to recharge.
11
Another important thing to keep in mind is that the
12
water that is being diverted for off-stream use is likely
13
contributing to groundwater recharge in other areas. But
14
these other areas may not be necessarily the places where
15
you want the recharge to occur. So but it is important to
16
keep that in mind. It's not a total loss to the system. So
17
if you sum up these four recharge reductions, you get a
18
total of about 11.5 million gallons per day, a reduction in
19
recharge that we expect, given the conditions that I've
20
listed down here in this footnote.
21
Okay. So similar to the previous graph that I
22
showed, this plot, instead of showing the stream flow that
23
you would expect, shows the reduction in recharge that you
24
would expect for combinations of ditch capacities in Waihee
25
Ditch and Spreckels Ditch. So I'm using that same example
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73of Waihee River which has two main diversion intakes. And
instead of plotting like in the previous plot, showing you
what happened to the median flow near the coast, I plotted
here the recharge reduction that you would expect for any
combination of intake capacities in Waihee and Spreckels
ditches.
Okay. So applying that same example that I used
previously, if you have an intake capacity of 20 million
gallons per day in Waihee Ditch and about 6 for Spreckels
Ditch, you come across to this point, which lies on this
line. And that would indicate for these two intake
capacities, you'd get about a .6 million gallon per day
reduction in groundwater recharge from Waihee River. Okay.
So again, we produced plots of this nature for each one of
the streams so that managers could evaluate, you know,
what -- what -- what different hypothetical intakes might do
to the groundwater recharge.
Okay. And the third aspect that I want to talk
about today is the effects of diversions on habitat. And
this photograph actually has about a dozen native fish
shown. And it's difficult to see them in that last
photograph -- in the last photograph, so I've kind of
outlined them here. These are the native 'o'opu for which
we're trying to estimate the effects of the existing
diversions on their habitat. And I'm not going to talk too
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much about some of the instream needs of these -- of these
2
native species. We -- I'm just going to concentrate this
3
part of the talk on how the diversions are affecting the
4
physical habitat for the native species.
5
Okay. So we measured habitat at all of these red
6
dots on the four streams, total of 13 sites. And we went
7
back to each one of these sites anywhere from two to five
8
times to -- to collect our habitat measurements. And our
9
habitat measurements, we essentially included measurements
10
of the water velocity, the water depth and the substrate
11 material at the point where we were -- where we were
12
measuring. And I'm not going to be able to fully describe
13
the method that we used to translate our measurements into
14
an estimate of the -- the suitable habitat for these native
15
species. I'm just going to kind of jump to the -- the
16
result here.
17
This plot shows the response of the habitat for
18
the -- these species, the response to stream flow. Okay.
19
So on the vertical scale here, I've plotted the habitat.
20
And let's, for the moment, ignore the -- the units of it.
21
But it's -- on the vertical scale is a measure of the
22
habitat, and the habitat increases as you go up. On the
23
horizontal scale, I've plotted the stream flow, or
24
discharge. And the discharge goes up as you go to the
25
right.
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75Okay. So this is a graph in which we essentially
combined all of our data for all of the native species that
we looked at, which included the native 'o'opu, 'opae, and
also hihiwai. And so it's kind of a summary graph or a
generalized relation that we came up with to describe the
relation between habitat and flow.
Okay. The important thing here is that the flows
are -- are actually normalized. And by that, I mean
they're -- they're made comparable amongst the -- the
various streams. Some of the streams are bigger than
others, they have more flow. And so in order to make them
comparable, you have to kind of divide them by what the --
by some factor to kind of normalize them all onto this --
onto a common scale. And what I chose to do here was to
normalize the discharge in terms of the natural Q70
discharge. Okay. And that was not a totally arbitrary
choice because the natural Q70 discharge is kind of an
indicator of a typical base flow conditions, conditions
where you -- kind of dry weather conditions where the flow
that you see in the stream is mainly coming from groundwater
discharge.
So what I plotted, then, would be a discharge kind
of normalized by what you would expect on a typical base
flow conditions. The habitat was -- was normalized
according to the habitat at that same flow. Okay. So it's
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76kind of a percentage. So if I'm at 100 percent, that means
I'm at the Q70 flow. I'm at 100 percent of my typical base
flow condition, and I'm also at 100 percent of my habitat at
that flow condition. Okay. So I've also plotted here a
couple of examples.
Okay. So for Waihee River, the State has
established an interim instream flow standard of 6 million
gallons per day. That is actually 22 percent of the natural
Q70 discharge. Okay. So that point we'll plot here. That
6 million gallons per day is equivalent to 22 percent of
this natural Q70 discharge in Waihee River. If you look at
that, if you come up here to the graph, you'll see that what
you're left with then is about 70 percent of the habitat
that you would expect under that -- a typical base flow
condition.
Okay. Waiehu Stream is doing a little better in
terms of habitat. The proposed -- or the final interim
instream flow standard for that stream was 1.3 million
gallons per day. And if you do the math, it comes out to
about 72 percent of what the natural Q70, or typical base
flow condition would be. If you come up to where it hits
the graph and go horizontally, you'll see that -- what that
leaves in the stream is about 92 percent, 92 percent of the
habitat you would expect under typical base flow conditions.
Okay. So that -- that essentially in a nutshell is
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77the results from our study. There are actually quite a bit
more -- there's quite a bit more information in the final
report. But, obviously, I can't spend all day talking about
that. So I kind of boiled it down here to some bullet
points. In terms of stream flow, the existing diversions
are indeed capable of reducing the flow to zero near the
coast. The interim instream flow standard -- it actually
should be IIFS -- established by the Commission on Water
Resource Management allows this condition to continue in Iao
Stream, but doesn't allow the condition to occur in either
Waihee River or Waiehu Stream.
Now, in terms of groundwater recharge, the existing
diversions are capable of reducing recharge by about 11.5
million gallons per day. The interim instream flow
standards established by the Commission of Washing -- Water
Resource Management will likely result in more than 9
million gallons per day reduction.
In terms of habitat, existing diversions are
capable of reducing to habitat -- of reducing habitat to
zero in some reaches in all the streams. The interim
instream flow standard will allow this condition to continue
in Iao Stream, but it will maintain about 70 percent of your
typical base flow habitat in Waihee River and more like 92
percent in Waiehu Stream near the coast.
One of the things that we do have in our report are
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those curves that I showed you which we developed to
2
estimate the effects of the diversions on stream flow,
3
recharge reduction, and habitat for the native species. And
4
with that, I'll close.
5
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Oki.
6
What I will do at this time is take a quick
7
two-minute recess. I'd ask all the Members not to leave
8
their -- the Chamber. We'll raise the screen. And if
9
Mr. Oki and Mr. Anthony will come up front, and I'll open it
10
up to Q and A. This meeting will stand in recess for two
11
minutes. ...(gavel)...
12
RECESS: 11:05 a.m.
13
RECONVENE: 11:07 a.m.
14
CHAIR VICTORINO: The June 15th Water Resource
15
Committee meeting will reconvene. First of all, I'd like to
16
thank you, Mr. Oki and Mr. Anthony, for being here for that
17
presentation. I think Delwyn and I had met in Oahu at the
18
HWWA conference. And I asked him at that time, and he was
19
very willing to come up to give us a presentation. I thank
20
you very, very much.
21
At this time, what I -- the Chair would like to do
22
it this way. I would like to go for the next 20 minutes, or
23
to 11:30. And I'll cut it off at that point with Q and A
24
with the two presenters. And if you have any further
25
questions, then please put it in writing and we'll ascertain
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79the answers for you at that time. Then we'll go and try to
finish up our last agenda item, which is the ag consumer
part. Okay.
So at this time I would like -- and I'll do it this
way. I'll start with Mr. Molina and just work our way down.
And if we could keep it to maybe one or two questions, just
to give everybody a fair chance, I would appreciate it. Go
ahead, Mr. Molina, and we'll work our way right down the
line.
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Thank you very much,
Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, gentlemen, for that very excellent
presentation. I felt like I was taking a college course
here. But it was very informative, to say the least. In
terms of your formula for coming up with your numbers, how
was rainfall or lack therefore calculated into -- into all
of this? If you could put it in laymen's terms. I mean,
I'm not, you know, an expert in the field like -- like --
like you folks are.
MR. OKI: (Inaudible).
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Hang on a second.
Microphone. We're missing the microphone again. One
moment, please, because we need to record this.
MS. WILLENBRINK: I apologize, Chair.
CHAIR VICTORINO: That's okay.
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MS. WILLENBRINK: I may need a little bit of help.
2
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Mr. Kushi, do you think
3
that microphone could move over for now while we try to get
4
technical corrections? I don't think so. Yeah, why don't
5
you -- yeah, Mr. Oki, go over a little while for right now
6
we -- oh, okay.
7
Okay. Okay. Mr. Oki, now you can slide back.
8
Thank you. Sorry about that, making it inconvenient for
9
you. I apologize. My fault. Go ahead, Mr. Oki.
10
MR. OKI: Okay. We based our analyses on stream
11
flow data. So we use -- we use data from our stream gauging
12
stations, both active and historical, which are -- they were
13
run back in -- 100 years ago or so.
14
We also used data that we collected as part of this
15
study, which we call miscellaneous discharge measurements.
16
We went to the stream at selected locations to help us
17
establish what kinds of -- of stream distribution we'd get,
18
basically; what would -- what -- what the flow would be
19
along the length of the stream. We did not directly factor
20
in rainfall into our analyses. It was based -- the stream
21
flow is basically an integrator of that rainfall. It --
22
it's -- obviously, it depended on rainfall. And so it kind
23
of integrates what's going on in that -- in the watershed.
24
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Uh-huh, okay.
25
MR. OKI: So we didn't directly use rainfall. We
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81used stream flow data.
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Okay. All right, thank you.
And it's my last -- second and final question,
Chair.
I guess one of your last slides on page 15 on the
document you handed to us on the effects of diversions on --
on the habitat, it mentions 13 sites, 10 cross-sections per
site. I mean, when you speak of habitat, you're talking
about the -- I guess, the animal and plant life. I guess in
a nutshell, so in your estimations -- I don't know if you
said it in your presentation. But just a quick synopsis. I
mean, is this having -- the diversions having a real major
impact on fish and flora and fauna of these stream sites?
Are these 13 sites in --
MR. OKI: Well, we -- we select -- those sites were
selected because they had water. We -- we couldn't make
habitat measurements in a dry stream bed. So we -- we
particularly selected those sites because they had water.
Now, in terms of -- in general, does the -- do the
diversions affect the habitat? In some locations --
obviously, if you have a dry stream bed, it's affecting your
habitat. What the effect of -- of returning water back to
the stream on abundance of the -- of native species, we did
not try to quantify that at all. We just looked at physical
habitat, the effects of the different flow rates on physical
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82habitat for these species.
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Okay. So that would, I
guess, be left to other scientists to make that type of
assessment?
MR. OKI: Right.
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Okay. All right. Thank
you.
Thank you, Chairman.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Molina.
Ms. Baisa?
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Yes, thank you, Chair.
And thank you, gentlemen, for an incredible
presentation. Trying to get the chronology straight in my
mind, this work that you presented to us today, was this
presented to CWRM prior to them making their recent
decisions?
MR. OKI: Not to the Commissioners. We had --
because the -- the Commission on Water Resource Management
was a cooperator on the project, --
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Right.
MR. OKI: -- we did brief them on the results of
the study. I think it was back in October of 2009. So they
were aware of the study. They're aware that the report was
imminent, but we did not present it to the Commissioners
themselves. I believe that -- and I didn't talk about it up
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there. But I believe that the decision that they came up
2
with was based on what was on the record. And this was not
3
on the record that they could use, I believe.
4
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: That's kind of sad.
5
MR. OKI: Well --
6
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Because it appears to be very
7
relevant information.
8
MR. OKI: Oh, absolutely. But -- but the -- the
9
approach they're adopting is kind of an adaptive management
10
approach so that they set these interim instream flow
11
standards. If it's found, for whatever reason, that they're
12
not working, they can always revise it. And at that point,
13
they can use the information, you know, from our study.
14
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Okay. Thank you very much.
15
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
16
Mr. Kaho'ohalahala?
17
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Thank you, Chair.
18
So in looking at your summary, then, from all of
19
the information you provided us. Then basically in the
20
stream flow, you said if we continue to -- the existing
21
diversions, then there's more than likely chance that there
22
will be no -- the coastal area will be zero, then, no water
23
will -- is that your -- a conclusion, then, in your summary?
24
MR. OKI: For -- for -- for some of the time.
25
For -- for like Iao Stream, now, clearly, if you have a big
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storm, it's going to flow all the way to the coast.
2
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Right. Right.
3
MR. OKI: But under -- under typical dry weather
4
conditions, we're finding that near the coast, Iao Stream
5
was dry, you know, more than half the time.
6
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: And that's with the
7
status quo?
8
MR. OKI: Yes.
9
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: So at the -- at the
10
current decision by the Commission, then, it would mean that
11
there would be dry periods of time -- or most of the time,
12
would be dry, then?
13
MR. OKI: More than half the time.
14
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: More than half the
15
time would be dry. And then when you look at the recharge,
16
just so I understand this, your conclusion is that the
17
diversions are going to reduce recharge by 11.5 million
18
gallons per day. And then you said, then, with the instream
19
flow standards, that it may result in a 9 point -- so you're
20
saying there would be a reduction of 2 million, then?
21
MR. OKI: Yes, because the 11.5 was derived based
22
on diversions in there, kind of existing configurations. So
23
they'd be -- you're taking essentially all of the dry
24
weather flow that they could take.
25
Now, with the instream flow standard recently set
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85by the Water Commission, they are -- it's status quo for
Waikapu and Iao Stream. But for the other two streams,
for -- for Waiehu Stream and Waihee River, they are putting
water back. And so what that does is it enhances the
groundwater recharge.
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Okay. So
essentially, then, the conclusion is that the diversions in
fact are going to be taking away quite an amount of, sum of
water in terms of recharge, then?
MR. OKI: Potentially, yes.
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Eleven -- in this
case, 11.5 million per day?
MR. OKI: That would be for -- for sort of existing
conditions. And again, there's some provisos to that; none
of the water is put back to the stream, diversions in their
existing configurations. So those are the two main
provisos.
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: So the -- the claim
that was presented by the testifier, then, that to have the
instream flow for the taro production would in fact help the
recharge? That's a -- that's a --
MR. OKI: Potentially, yes. I mean, if you put all
the water back in the stream, some of that water, you
know --
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: It will go back?
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86MR. OKI: It will go back down to the aquifer. Not
all of it, but some of it will go back. If you have a dry
stream, clearly you don't have that opportunity.
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Okay. So I just
want to kind of parallel their -- their positions that the
instream flow is a benefit to the aquifer itself in terms of
the recharge, yeah?
MR. OKI: If you enhance the flow in the stream by
putting water back, that's going to enhance the opportunity
for recharge.
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Okay. And then just
my last question has to do with the -- you're saying in the
existing diversions, then, that the -- the chance of habitat
restoration or continuation is zero, then, for all streams?
MR. OKI: No. What I -- what I said was that in
each one of the streams, for the -- in the existing
situation, there are going to be some reaches that are dry.
And so that -- they will have zero habitat. In some cases,
the reaches are longer than others. In some cases, it -- it
may be dry even under natural conditions. But for -- for
instance, for -- if you take Iao Stream, there's a fairly
long reach that is dry because of the existing diversions.
If no water were diverted, that stream would be perennial.
So the diversions, yeah, are -- if you create a dry stream,
you clearly eliminate all the habitat within reach.
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87COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Okay.
Okay. Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
Mr. Medeiros?
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Mahalo, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you for your presentation.
MR. OKI: Thank you.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Very informative.
Continuing on the same lines, I'm not sure how far your
study or your research that this project went to. But did
it include anything having to do with the estuaries and down
to the ocean?
MR. OKI: No.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: No.
MR. OKI: And that was one of the things I listed
in that slide is we didn't look in the -- in the nearshore
environment.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Okay. Because -- and --
and -- is that the kind of work you would do, though, that
would include the estuaries and the nearshore ocean waters
and reefs?
MR. OKI: That's -- I mean, we definitely would be
interested in that because it's an issue that's been brought
up not only here, but also on Molokai.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Uh-huh.
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88MR. OKI: So it's something that needs to be
addressed. Whether or not we'd be doing that, I'm not sure.
Do you want to say anything?
MR. ANTHONY: That might be work that USGS could
assist with, but not likely with some of the expertise we
currently have in our Honolulu office. It's something that
we would reach out to other entities within USGS who would
have appropriate expertise to -- to help with that.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: I see.
MR. ANTHONY: And, of course, there are others,
perhaps at the University of Hawaii or Division of Aquatic
Resources, others within the State that would have that
expertise.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Uh-huh. I -- I'm just
trying to see how do you tie in the entire ecosystem with
the -- the streams that go dry or get a little bit more
flows on different weather conditions, and so forth.
Because I know another time, information was presented --
and it was given to us that there was observations of 'o'opu
now back in the streams. But like Iao, above the
diversions, they can exist. But that's a long ways from the
ocean to the diversions for them to go on a dry stream bed.
So that's my -- my interest is how do you connect the
ecosystem again once you dry it up? Any -- any comments to
that?
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MR. ANTHONY: No, other than to support your
2
interest in viewing things from a -- an ecosystem
3
perspective. And that's something that scientists bring
4
expertise in particular aspects and need to work together
5
with their counterparts who have the expertise to provide a
6
more holistic understanding.
7
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Uh-huh.
8
MR. ANTHONY: And the challenge often is that the
9
funds available to address questions often aren't sufficient
10
to support a more complete understanding. And often when
11
looking at results from any one study, one is often left
12
with more questions because that one study couldn't address
13
all of the issues.
14
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Okay. And just -- just
15
maybe finally, my observations of Iao Stream in recent
16
months, at times there was a heavy flow, but there wasn't
17
rainfall down by the coastal area. There were clouds in the
18
mountains. What effect did that heavy flow for several
19
days? I mean, it was like a week of heavy flow -- not heavy
20
flow, but flow going on where we -- before, there was none.
21
MR. OKI: Yeah. Well, occasionally, both Wailuku
22
Water and HC&S will do maintenance on their ditches. And
23
during those periods, sometimes they flow water back into
24
the stream. And so I'm not sure --
25
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Okay.
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90MR. OKI: I mean, I don't know what exactly was
causing that flow that you saw, but that's one possibility.
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Okay. Thank you very much
for the information.
Mahalo, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you.
Mr. Nishiki?
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yeah. USGS is an
organization that does work independently for the County of
Maui?
MR. OKI: We're -- we're a Federal agency that is
not a management agency. We -- we -- we work for the
people, essentially. We provide data and information that
can be used by the County or by the State.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And you are in no way
tainted by big business, people that divert, or even our
taro farmers?
MR. OKI: Well, one -- one of the things that we
pride ourselves on is being an unbiased scientific
organization. We have -- you know, we have no dog in the
fight.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: You receive no money from
the big corporations or anything else?
MR. OKI: Well, we -- we receive our money from --
typically, from other Government organizations.
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COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Okay. And -- and -- and I
2
want to read, Mr. Chairman, from the executive summary,
3
which says that "This report presents results of a study to
4
characterize the effects of existing surface water,
5
diversions of stream flow, groundwater recharge, physical
6
habitat for native stream fauna, and water temperature in
7
Waihee River, Waiehu" --
8
CHAIR VICTORINO: Mr. Nishiki, I'm going to stop
9
you right here. Because I want questions to be asked -- I'm
10
not -- you know, if you want to present that later, that's
11
fine. But I have other Members that would like to ask
12
questions. And I -- I understand you're zealous to explain
13
that. If that can be brought up at a later point. I would
14
like the Members to be able to ask questions. So I'm going
15
to ask you unless you have a question, I'd like to move on.
16
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Oh, I do have a question.
17
CHAIR VICTORINO: Well, ask the question,
18
Mr. Nishiki, specifically without reading all the rest of
19
the stuff. Thank you, sir.
20
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yeah. You know what,
21
Mr. Chairman?
22
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yes, sir.
23
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: I just -- I don't want
24
someone to interrupt me when I've got a question and I need
25
to present to them what this states so that they can justify
CAMMIE GILLETT, RPR, CSR #438
what my questions is.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Ask the question, Mr. Nishiki.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And I don't like your
bullying tactic, but I will ask the question now.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Please ask the question. Thank
you.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And I call it a bullying
tactic.
The question is this: In the -- and help the
general public to understand this. You're saying that 11.5
million gallons are lost to recharge. In other words, the
recharge. What, in effect, does this do to the ability of
the aquifer, I guess the question is, that is -- that we get
our water from? What does this recharge loss do to the
County's ability and the condition of the aquifer, I guess,
where we get water from? What occurs there?
MR. OKI: Well, we actually have a study that
addresses that, that was published about a year and a half
ago maybe that specifically addressed the aquifer. We
developed the numerical groundwater model. That was done in
cooperation with the County Department of Water Supply. And
in one of those scenarios, we looked at what that recharge
contribution from the streams would do to the aquifer.
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: And what -- what does the
scientific info -- information show when the -- this much
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millions of gallons are lost due to diversion?
2
MR. OKI: I can't specifically say what it did.
3
But what you would expect in general is that if you put more
4
water into the system, you would expect an increase in your
5
groundwater level and also likely an improvement in the
6
quality of the water. You could probably get a little bit
7
of freshening. But I don't have a -- I don't have the
8
specific figures in front of me. But that was quantified as
9
one of the scenarios in a previously published report.
10
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Okay. So -- so then you
11
would say that in the -- in the area where the decision to
12
give no stream flow in Iao and Waikapu does two things: In
13
those areas, recharge may not happen; and two, in those
14
areas, stream habitat could be totally eliminated?
15
MR. OKI: It would -- recharge -- the opportunity
16
for recharge would be diminished, clearly. You would get
17
recharge under high-flow conditions, but that doesn't happen
18
all the time.
19
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yeah.
20
MR. OKI: Same thing for habitat. Under a typical
21
low-flow conditions, both Waikapu and Iao may experience dry
22
stream beds, which clearly means zero habitat.
23
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: In other words, when you
24
say zero habitat, things will die?
25
MR. OKI: Yeah. You have no water.
CAMMIE GILLETT, RPR, CSR #438
aquifer? Any idea?
MR. OKI:
along that stream.
It -- it really depends on where you are
It depends on the elevation of the
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94COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Anyway, I'll allow other
questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Nishiki.
Mr. Pontanilla?
VICE-CHAIR PONTANILLA: Thank you. I wasn't going
to ask a question. But, you know, Mr. Nishiki brought up a
good point where water is now going to be put back into the
stream. How long does it take to recharge an aquifer? In
other words, when you look at Waihee -- Waihee Stream,
they're going to put back water into that stream. How long
does it take for the stream water to reach -- to reach the
streambed relative to the water level in the aquifer. If
it -- if it has to travel -- if the water has to travel
vertically down further, it's clearly going to take longer.
Whereas, as you get closer to the coast, that distance
diminishes, that unsaturated zone between the stream bed and
the water table can be a matter of feet.
We have some data -- and this is not exactly
analogous. But we do have some data from Kona in which it
shows that when a big storm came through, we saw a fairly
immediate response in groundwater level. Now, it's a
slightly different situation because there the rocks are
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extremely permeable. You're talking about bare lava. So in
2
these streams, you're talking about the water having to
3
travel through some lower permeability sedimentary deposits.
4
So the response will be delayed. But as you get closer to
5
the coast where that distance between the stream and the
6
groundwater is small, you could see a fairly -- a quick
7
response. I don't -- I can't quantify that, but --
8
VICE-CHAIR PONTANILLA: Okay. Thank you. And you
9
know, in Iao Stream, they had hardened the -- I guess, the
10
stream bed. What effect does it have in regards to the
11
stream itself? You know, that one particular section, if
12
water was, you know, put back into that stream, you know,
13
there -- there wouldn't be any recharge in that one
14
particular area. But as -- you know, what does hardening of
15
the streambed does?
16
MR. OKI: Well, like you say, it will -- it will
17
reduce the opportunity for groundwater recharge. But also,
18
when you have a concrete channel as opposed to a natural
19
streambed, the habitat is not as desirable for the native
20
fauna. They don't have as many places to hide out.
21
There are ways of trying to improve that condition.
22
In fact, in Iao, you see they -- they kind of cemented in
23
some cobbles to try to provide some artificial habitat.
24
It's not the greatest solution. But putting water back into
25
these concrete sections also provides an opportunity for the
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96native species to kind of migrate upstream. Without water,
they can't migrate or negotiate that concrete section. But
if water is there, they -- they have the potential to travel
upstream.
VICE-CHAIR PONTANILLA: Thank you.
Thank you, Chairman.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yeah. Thank you.
Mr. Mateo?
COUNCILMEMBER MATEO: Yeah, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much. And gentlemen, you know,
thank you for this real comprehensive report. It was, at
times, I guess if you didn't have an understanding of
geology itself, it became quite technical.
However, on page 5 of your report, the study is
quite -- quite thorough, I think, in stream flow,
groundwater recharge, habitat for native fauna. But yet,
it's the second part, the lower part of the page, that is
kind of disturbing to me where you probably are the only
entity that has a -- a most recent study of the streams, and
yet your study does touch on flow -- on stream flow, it also
touches on recharge, and it touches on the animal life in --
in the streams. And yet, your report does not recommend
stream flow, does not respond to native species, does not --
will not address the additional water required for taro
growers, et cetera. And yet, that is such a vital component
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97in us understanding the health of the stream.
Is there a reason why USGS will not make these
recommendations?
MR. OKI: You want that one?
Yeah. I mean, as a general rule, we do not make
recommendations. It's not our role as an agency. We
provide the information to enable managers to make these
decisions.
COUNCILMEMBER MATEO: Okay. But US --
MR. OKI: Go ahead.
COUNCILMEMBER MATEO: But USGS, you know, got
involved with the study because you understand the urgency
in the degradation of the four streams?
MR. OKI: Well, we wanted to provide information
that would enable the Water Commission to make kind of a
sound, you know, judgment.
COUNCILMEMBER MATEO: So USGS has confidence in the
Water Commission?
ALL: ...(chuckle)...
MR. ANTHONY: Maybe if I help in this way, which is
to say that these decisions are left to the Water Commission
because it is the Water Code that empowers them to make
those decisions. And USGS is providing information that
helps people facing these decisions to understand the
effects of the decisions that they'll be making to --
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essentially, they're faced with how are they going to
2
balance those competing beneficial uses.
3
It is not appropriate for USGS to insert itself in
4
that decision-making process. We're not empowered to make
5
those decisions. And those decisions are really value
6
judgments that the people who are empowered to make need to
7
make. And we are a scientific agency that is -- that is to
8
provide information, but not to pass judgment on others and
9
their values and their decisions that they make. And we
10
really leave it up to -- to those that have that
11
responsibility to carry out that work.
12
COUNCILMEMBER MATEO: Thank you very much. Good
13
cover. Thank you very much.
14
Mr. Chairman, thank you.
15
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you. And, you know, I want
16
to, first of all, thank you, Mr. Anthony. That was a --
17
you're very good at soft-shoe -- you can tap around
18
anything. I want to hire this guy.
19
But more importantly, I think I want to say thank
20
you for both of you gentlemen being up here for that
21
presentation. I will offer the Members, if you have any
22
further questions, please get that in writing, and that we
23
can forward on any other questions you may have about the
24
study. There are books available on this study. And that's
25
the one you have there. Right? Okay. And I will make sure
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everyone gets a copy of that study so that you have that for
2
your own perusal when you have some time. I mean, we all
3
have plenty of time.
4
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Mr. Chair?
5
CHAIR VICTORINO: Yes.
6
COUNCILMEMBER MEDEIROS: Just a yes or no question,
7
not having to do with this --
8
CHAIR VICTORINO: No, I'm not going to allow any
9
more questions because we need to move on. So at this
10
point, I'm -- I'm going to say no. And I made it 11:30, and
11
it's 11:35. And we need a few minutes to finish the other
12
one, if at all possible.
13
So gentlemen, if you don't mind, I will excuse you.
14
Thank you very, very much. And I do appreciate it. And the
15
Committee Members, thank you very, very much.
16
Okay. Gentlemen and ladies, let us move on to our
17
second item, which is WR-1, apostrophe 1 [sic]. This is --
18
oh, I'm sorry. Excuse me. Before I go on, I have to defer
19
the first item.
20
So if there's no objection, I'd like to defer the
21
first item, Item WR-13?
22
COUNCIL MEMBERS: No objections.
23
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you very much.
24
ACTION: DEFER pending further discussion.
25
ITEM NO. 1(1): WATER SUPPLY RULES (DEFINITION OF
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100AGRICULTURAL CONSUMER)(C.C. Nos. 05-46,
06-228, and C.R. No. 10-43)
CHAIR VICTORINO: So the second item, which was a
deferred item, is the Water Supply Rules (Definition of an
Agricultural Consumer).
We are in receipt of a correspondence dated
June 8, 2010, from the Department of Corporation Counsel,
transmitting a revised bill entitled A Bill For an Ordinance
Amending Article 1, Title 14, Maui County Code, Relating to
the Agricultural Consumer.
To make certain -- please make certain that
everyone has the most revised revision, or the most current
revision. That should be dated June 8th, 2010, from the
Corporation Counsel, Mr. Edward S. Kushi. Everyone have
that? I just want to make sure.
Okay. Now, this was recommitted back in
March 19th, 2010, from a Council Meeting, regarding the
concerns from the public. The new bill has incorporated
many suggestions after meeting with organization and
individuals within the community. I've tried to incorporate
many of the discussions we've had from many of the different
groups in all aspects. And as you can see, the bill that
has come forward is really a compilation of all the various
suggestions.
So at this time, I will also draw your attention to
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101a letter that was sent to you from the Department, dated
June 14th, 2010. And this is from Mr. Jeffrey Eng. And
this letter had some concerns in some of the areas for which
we are moving in. And as you can see, there were three --
four items that were -- that he had concerns in. One was
the Department's prefer of a minimum income -- gross income
of 5,000. The -- secondly, was the community gardens, for
which the Department was recommending net cultivation of
22,000 square feet, and no less than 25 active participants,
which I think we -- we -- we did incorporate. Waiver of
income requirements for nonprofit to comply with the annual
application procedure.
Again, that was basically back to Number 1 again
with the 5,000. And the last one, Number 4, grant of
waivers for agricultural consumers whose commercial crop and
operations suffered hardships due to natural causes. And
again, it went back to -- referring to the first response
that he had in the letter itself, yeah?
So you all have that number, the one dated
June 14th, and the other one that was June -- the other one
that was June -- dated June 18th, from Mr. Kushi -- right?
So that we're not all confused with so many different
versions that we've gone through up to this point.
Ladies and gentlemen, are we okay with that?
COUNCIL MEMBERS: Yes.
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102CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. So at this time, I will
open up the floor to the Department, first of all, for your
comments. And then I'll open up the floor for the rest of
the Members for discussion purposes.
Mr. Eng?
MR. ENG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Committee
Members. Yeah, I think you received my comments as the
Chair has gone over with you. Really the two major points
of concern are the minimal gross annual income. The
Department does prefer the amount that was proposed in the
prior draft bill. And also, the size of a commercial
garden. Again, we'd like to confirm the minimum cultivated
parcel size of 22,000 square feet, and a group of no less
than 25 active participants.
We haven't had too much experience so far with
community gardens. Much of this is based on the Haliimaile
Community Garden that is a current customer. And from
information that they provided us at the time they submitted
their application, they actually showed a cultivated area of
0.83 acres. And at that time, they indicated they had 45
families participating. I think the gentleman today
indicated there's about 55 participants. So something like
that, we can support.
And that's all I have to comment on at this time.
Thank you.
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103CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you. At this time, I'd
like to call on Mr. Kushi. If you would explain to the
Members -- because I think the question was brought up why
you weren't willing to sign off on this particular bill. So
if you would give your explanation, please?
MR. KUSHI: Yes, Mr. Chairman. In consultation and
discussions with the staff, as well as other attorneys in my
office; specifically, the Corp. Counsel, we had some
concerns about this section. Specifically, on Section 3 of
the bill at page 2, Section 14.10.015, entitled "Waiver,"
Paragraph B, as in boy. And these are waiver provisions
where for whatever reason -- the consumer does not make the
minimum income requirement -- annual income gross
requirement currently at $2,500.
The section reads as follows: Agricultural
consumers who receive agricultural water rates but do not
meet the minimum gross annual income requirement due to
events or acts of force, force majeure, or whose expenses
result in an annual income of less than $2,500 for a
particular year, may request a waiver of the income
requirement for a period of one year from the Director.
In reviewing this, we are still at a loss as to how
expenses would result in the annual income -- annual gross
income of less than $2,500 per year. My -- my understanding
of -- bottom line is when you look at annual income, you
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104don't look at expenses. You look at expenses for annual net
income or adjusted net income. So, you know, if you spend
like $10,000 on expenses per year, it really doesn't matter
until you get down to deducted the -- deducting those
expenses from your gross income.
So I know Member Johnson brought that up. I was
confused then. I'm still confused now. My office is
confused. So if somebody can explain that?
CHAIR VICTORINO: Mr. Eng, would you like to take a
stab at that?
MR. ENG: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I was confused also
in that -- in this particular case that Mr. Kushi is
referencing. When I was reviewing this the past couple of
days, it seemed to me like in that particular paragraph, it
should make a reference to profit or loss, not income.
Because income, as Mr. Kushi stated, is your total revenue,
total income. When you start throwing in expenses, then
you're talking about net profit or loss. So I was confused.
Thanks.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you. And again, that was
again my way of incorporating all what was given to me by
everybody, includes Ms. -- including Ms. Johnson. So I've
incorporated just about anything and everything everybody
asked to put in within reason to make this bill palatable
and fair to everybody. But if this is creating -- causing
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105confusion, then I need to -- we need to look at that.
Other questions, Members, at this time? Yes,
Ms. Baisa?
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Thank you very much, Chair.
There's quite a few things that are concerning me before I
would be ready to vote on this bill. One, of course, is the
issue that Mr. -- Mr. Kushi brings up, but more than that,
some of the testimony that we had today.
First of all, in the letter from Mr. Eng, where he
gives us the Department recommendations, he mentions in
Number 2, talking about community gardens, the
recommendation of 22,000 square feet. And this morning, I
asked the gentleman from the Haliimaile Gardens if they
would meet that. And he said no, that they only have
19,000. And so, you know, if we're trying to accommodate
the community gardens, we might want to take a look at that.
And I'd like to know the Department's reaction to that?
CHAIR VICTORINO: Mr. Eng, you did -- just said
something about Haliimaile Gardens. Can you readdress that,
please?
MR. ENG: Yes, I did earlier. Again, I based my
response about the Haliimaile Community Gardens to what they
submitted at the time of their application. I can share
this map with you. And they do show a net -- what they call
a garden or orchard area of 0.84 acres. They had a total
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106area of 1.43 acres.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Can you translate that into
square feet? Because that's what the ordinance talks about.
It doesn't talk about acres. And that's confusing. We
don't -- we're not comparing apples and apples.
MR. ENG: So they have -- according to what they
submitted at the time of the application, they have about
36,600 square feet.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Uh-huh.
MR. ENG: So I'm not certain how the gentleman came
up with less. But, you know, 19,000 is darn close to half
an acre, to 22. I don't think we would have a particular
problem approving something like that.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: I would much prefer that we
correct this language and not say, well, we're not going to
have a problem. Because later on, we may have a problem.
It's been my experience that the best intention, people sit
here and make laws, and then they're gone. And new people
come along and say, well, a law says this. So if we're
going to fix it, I think we should fix it now.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Well, what do you suggest, then,
if I may ask you that question?
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Well, I'm suggesting that if
we're going to a say, well, a quarter acre is a quarter acre
or -- you know, what are we agreeing to? That's what I
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wanted to say.
2
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay.
3
Mr. Kushi?
4
MR. KUSHI: Yes, Mr. Chair, Member Baisa. Maybe I
5
can get some clarification.
6
When the Department recommended 22,000 square feet,
7
which is approximately just over half an acre, a bell rang
8
in my mind. I looked at the zoning codes. In one district,
9
you have Rural zoning. You have Rural, half-acre rural,
10
one-acre and above. So in Rural Districts, ag activities is
11
a permitted use. In Ag zones, ag is a permitted use. In
12
Residential zones, to be an ag -- you can grow your own
13
garden patch. But if you do it for a business, you need a
14
Special Use Permit or some sort of permit -- some other
15
Special Use Permit. I don't know from who.
16
But -- so I looked at the Rural zoning, which is a
17
minimum half an acre. And the way the wording is read -- I
18
mean, the way the wording is right now, it states a minimum
19
lot size -- lot size of half an acre which is actively
20
cultivated, not the entire lot size. Okay? So I would
21
see -- I would interpret that if you have at least half an
22
acre and you actively cultivate that, not the entire half --
23
half acre, but you actively cultivate it by a minimum people
24
of 15 people -- again, 15 is what is here. The Department
25
wants 25. It's up to you. But I don't feel that the entire
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108lot needs to be actively cultivate -- cultivated.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: I totally agree with you.
But, you know, I'm looking at the proposed language from the
Department, and it's very clear. It says, "For a community
garden, the Department would like to recommend the minimum
net cultivated parcel size of 22,000 square feet and a group
of no less than 25 active participants."
The participants are not the issue because we heard
they have 55 people. But when I asked him the question can
you comply with the 22,000 square foot restriction, he said
no, we don't meet it, we only have 19,000 square feet. So
that -- that's why I'm asking this question. So --
MR. KUSHI: And I will respond, it's your choice.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Okay. So it's our choice,
then, to change this. And the -- my suggestion is that in
most of these lots, are like, what, half acres?
MR. KUSHI: Well, as I said before, to be a
permitted ag use in --
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Right.
MR. KUSHI: -- a County zoning district, rural is a
-- ag is a permitted use. So that's why I took half an acre
minimum.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Okay. So if we have a half
an acre -- and assuming you have a fairly decent house on it
and other buildings, you'll be lucky if you have half of
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109that left. So that's 20,000 square feet. So that's where
you got the 22,000?
MR. KUSHI: No. To be --
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Of course, this is not a
house. Because we're talking about a community garden that
doesn't have anything on it. It's just vacant land, I would
imagine.
MR. KUSHI: It's hard to answer your question on
that. But let me say this also, too. Unless I'm wrong, the
applicant, the gentleman who testified --
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Right.
MR. KUSHI: -- I'm not sure who the parcel owner
is. I hope it's not 25 individuals --
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: I doubt it.
MR. KUSHI: -- because it won't have 25 meters.
There's only one meter, I'm assuming. And the parcel owner
needs to apply for the ag rate.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Right.
MR. KUSHI: And I'm assuming it's -- it's one of
the -- you know, HC&S or Maui Land & Pine or whoever. So
you don't get 25 separate ag rate meters.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: I don't think we're looking
for 25 separate ags -- ag meters. We're looking for
allowing a community garden to qualify for ag rates. And
the only way they're going to qualify, if we follow the
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110Department's recommendation, is they have to have 22,000
square feet cultivated, and 25 active participants. They
have the participants, but they don't meet the cultivation
amount. So can we reduce that so that we can cover them, is
what I'm trying to say here? If we want to promote
community gardens, then we got to help them.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Well, why -- why don't we say
this. If that's what you want, what -- would you like to
propose dropping that 22,000 square feet to something like
15,000 square feet? Is that more appealable to you?
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: In this case, it would help
Haliimaile. Now, I can't say that that's going to help all
the community gardens because we don't have that
information. We only know about Haliimaile. I have
nothing --
CHAIR VICTORINO: Well, the other gardens -- West
Maui and South Maui were part of this discussion. Only
Haliimaile, if I remember correctly, did not -- did not
come. Right? Ron Montgomery came from the Upcountry area.
I don't remember them being there. But anyhow, they might
have. I don't remember.
What do you -- what do you -- Kim?
MS. WILLENBRINK: Yes, Chair. I spoke to
Mr. Montgomery on the telephone -- Ms. Tova -- I can't
remember her name -- about four people about the numbers.
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111And they were all community garden people and they were all
in favor of those numbers.
CHAIR VICTORINO: The number that exists in front
of us right now, the 22,000 square feet and the 15 minimum
people?
MS. WILLENBRINK: And the 15. I believe at the
last meeting -- correct me if I'm wrong, Director Eng -- you
threw out a number of at least 10. And they upped that
number. They were fine with 15.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Yeah. We don't seem to have
a problem with the participants, it's the size of the
cultivated area that's the issue.
MS. WILLENBRINK: Correct. And just the people
that I've talked to, four separate people were in favor of
that.
COUNCILMEMBER BAISA: Well, I still would like to
see this to be able to accommodate Haliimaile. And, of
course, whatever the majority decides is what is going to
happen.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. What the Chair is going to
do at this time, I'm going to call for deferral of this
again because you guys have come up with other things that
are not being covered. And I'll bring this back at the next
meeting. But by that time, I would like to have your mana'o
definitively in writing from all of you, what you would like
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112
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to see this bill contain. And this way, I can make sure
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that we don't, again, go through a long, drawn-out
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discussion. Because we always seem to come right back to
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where we started.
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And so I'm going to defer this matter so that we
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get more time to work on these various issues that have been
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brought up. And if you can, bring that mana'o to the table
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in writing so we can look at it so we can all understand. I
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also asked the last time if you had income levels that, you
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know, you would like to recommend, to please recommend it.
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I heard nothing from anybody. So I'm just going to throw it
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that way, that way we -- because it's almost 12, and some
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people have to leave by 12, and they requested to leave by
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12. So I don't want to inhibit them or hold them back from
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their appointments.
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Mr. Pontanilla?
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VICE-CHAIR PONTANILLA: Thank you. In regards to
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the dollar amount, I think I told you that I would recommend
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$1,000 as, you know, noted in the USDA, as well as the NSRC.
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And when you look at some of the -- well, one of the
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testifiers handed out with his written testimony in regards
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to -- again, on the USDA and noting the $1,000.
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But coming back to Corporation Counsel, in regards
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to the land use side, you know, we're talking about rural
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half acre. What if they were to have -- and maybe I'll put
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it in writing --
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CHAIR VICTORINO: Please.
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VICE-CHAIR PONTANILLA: What if you were to have a
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community garden in a subdivision that is a residential
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subdivision, you know, for a community garden when it first
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being -- you know, as it developed, how would you handle
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that? Would it be like a special permit or a conditional
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proposed residential subdivision?
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MR. KUSHI: Mr. Chair.
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Member Pontanilla, my recollection is like in the
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R-1, R-2, R-3 Zones, you need a -- commercial community
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garden, you would need a Special Use Permit of some sort. I
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can get back to you as to the specific language. But it's
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not an ordinary permitted residential use.
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VICE-CHAIR PONTANILLA: Thank you.
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Thank you, Chairman.
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CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Thank you.
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Yes, Mr. Molina?
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COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Chair, just one quick
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question for Mr. Kushi related to the testimony given to us
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today by Mr. Kane with an individual -- individual farmer
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applying to give a donation to a school. I guess he was
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citing language in Section 3(c), where a nonprofit
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organization is -- you know, would be given that privilege.
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114Is there any place in here that could address
Mr. Kane's request, or do we need to consider additional
language to specify an individual farmer that would like to
make the same type of charitable donation like that of a
nonprofit organization and get the -- I guess, the tax
benefit?
MR. KUSHI: Well, Member Molina, maybe Member
Nishiki can answer you better than that. But, you know, I'm
assuming you're talking about for-profit individuals or
corporations. I mean, usually, those donations become a
deduction to get to net annual income. I can't see that --
I mean, nowhere in the IRS code or the State code can you
add it to income. You know, I'm not sure how that would
work.
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: So in short, it's really not
necessary to apply it into this ordinance? An individual
farmer can do it on their own in terms of just -- in their
own tax preparation, I guess, that they made a donation and
they can write it off, their legitimate business?
MR. KUSHI: Yeah, they can right it off as a
deduction.
COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Deduction, uh-huh.
MR. KUSHI: But I don't see how they can add it
back as income to qualify for the ag rates. I mean, this
section was specifically addressed for nonprofits --
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COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: I see.
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MR. KUSHI: -- who, you know, in the normal course,
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they donate.
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COUNCILMEMBER MOLINA: Okay. I was kind of
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interpreting him wanting some form of consistency. So but
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anyway, okay, I just wanted to get feedback from our side on
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that request from Mr. Kane. Thank you.
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Thank you, Chairman.
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CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you. Thank you. That was
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a good point too.
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Yes, Mr. Kaho'ohalahala?
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COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Thank you, Chair.
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At the last meeting, I was the one that requested that the
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Director to help us understand why 22,000 feet as the
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requirement. Because I think that is going to serve to be
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probably the more restrictive. And I wanted to know what
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would justify 22,000 feet, you know. And that was what I
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had requested that you provide for some kind of nexus or
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understanding to that area of -- of -- for community garden.
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And your response doesn't re -- doesn't explain any of that,
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it just says this is what you recommend. So I still don't
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know why you chose 22,000 feet.
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Corporation Counsel is talking about, you know,
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zoning. And so that's -- but that still doesn't mean it's
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22,000 feet. So I'm concerned that the 22,000 feet may be
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WR 6/15/10
116more prohibitive than we want it to be. And maybe that's
the issue here. And I would want to understand why we
would -- we would come to some kind of number like that?
And even, you know, it's -- it's problematic too,
to even think about the numbers of people that you would
have, you know. Because if we're looking at community
gardens, we're saying that you can only be a community
garden if you meet -- meet these kinds of criteria of 22,000
plus X-amount of people. That, to me, is going to be where
the major difficulty would be in us trying to encourage this
from happening. So I still have concerns about those two
areas, you know.
MR. ENG: Okay, if I may. At the time of the last
meeting when you posed that question, the only knowledge I
had of a community garden was the Haliimaile Community
Garden. I did not have all the details with me. I was
going pretty much by memory. At that time, I kind of recall
that it was about half an acre or so in size. And again,
the information I do have confirms the actual farmed area is
0.83 acres.
Again, the decision is yours, what you think is
appropriate. I just want to throw out something because at
that time, I didn't hear any discussion among the Committee.
So just for the sake of discussion, I threw it out as a
starting point. So that's the basis for my comments last
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WR 6/15/10
117meeting.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you, Mr. Eng.
COUNCILMEMBER KAHO'OHALAHALA: Okay. And my only
concern is that when you throw the number out, then what
we've been doing is we've been polling people as to whether
or not they think that the number is appropriate. But that
does not speak to whether or not that's a good policy across
the board. So I -- that's what I'm cautioned with is that
we may have some agreement on numbers, but that doesn't
answer the question about why that particular number, you
know, as the measure of a community garden. So that's my
concern.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Sure. Thank you,
Mr. Kaho'ohalahala.
Mr. Nishiki?
COUNCILMEMBER NISHIKI: Yeah. And again, the
concern -- I don't think we've heard from the Department
that whatever the land may be zoned is how agricultural
water rates are qualified. So I think, as Gladys has been
saying, the definition of community gard -- community garden
maybe should have no big large size or the amount of people.
Because maybe a lot of them start with a small parcel and
then increase as more people participate. But if we say
that it's a certain size, then, as Gladys has said, we're
eliminating it.
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WR 6/15/10
118And I think that -- not I think -- I know that this
Committee definitely wants to encourage community gardens
and people to grow and supplement their incomes and food
supply. So whatever way we do to inhibit it I think is bad.
So maybe we need to look at this, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Thank you. And, like I say,
before our next meeting, if you guys can make sure that you
have whatever adjustments or changes you want to -- to put
in here, I will work on it one more time. But again, this
has been the sixth or seventh meeting we've had on this. I
have had many other meetings with community groups and
individuals. This is not my plan. It's been the people's
plan. And that's where it's at.
And so I will defer this matter, with no objection,
and with a time certain at our next meeting. And, you know,
hopefully, we can get this completed. We are taking up time
that I cannot get anything else done at this point. But
that's the way it is.
So without any objections, I'd like to defer this
matter?
COUNCIL MEMBERS: No objections.
COUNCIL MEMBERS VOICED NO OBJECTIONS (Excused: BKM)
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. Thank you.
ACTION: DEFER pending further discussion.
CHAIR VICTORINO: Okay. And so I want to thank
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everybody for their hard work and thank the public at large
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for being here. I will call the Water Resources Committee
3
of June 15th adjourned. ...(gavel)...
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ADJOURN: 12:03 p.m.
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CAMMIE GILLETT, RPR, CSR #438
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120CERTIFICATE
County of Maui )
) ss.
State of Hawaii )
I, CAMMIE GILLETT, a Certified Shorthand Reporter
in and for the State of Hawaii, do hereby certify that the
foregoing pages comprise a full, true and correct transcript
of the proceedings had in connection with the above-entitled
matter.
Dated this 1st day of July 2010.
CAMMIE GILLETTRegistered Professional ReporterHawaii Certified Shorthand Reporter #438
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