Refutation Of A Hindu Objection Maker On The Eternity Of AL-QURAN

8/20/2019 Refutation Of A Hindu Objection Maker On The Eternity Of AL-QURAN

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RESPONSES TO OBJECTIONSOF A HINDU BROTHER ON

ISLAM

ANSWRING HINDU OBJECTIONS ON THE NATUREOF HOLY QURAN

[Pick the dte!

AHLUSSUNNAH "AL JAMAA#AHRE"ISED AND MODIFIED

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BISMILLAHIR RAHMAN IR RAHIM

I WAS INFORMED THAT A HINDU BROTHER HAS MADE SE"ERAL OBJECTIONS ON THE

UNCREATEDNESS OF QUR;AN< I WAS AS=ED TO MA=E A THOROUGH REFUTATION OF

HIS BASIC ARGUMENTS<

THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED TO READ HIS OBJECTIONS ARE REQUESTED TO "ISIT

THE PAGE>?

htt*>@@%%%7 BOTH CASES HIGHER AND LOWER ARE USED< DEPENDING UPON THE

EMPHASYS ECT< SIMILARLY

A COLOUR SENSITI"E SCHEME IS ADOPTED FOR SA=E OF EMPHASYSING<

NOTE > 8 AFTER PUBLISHING IT IT CAME IN =NOWLEDGE THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY

LI=E SOME COMMENTS ON THE "IEWS OF PANDID DIYANAND AND SOME

EPLANATION IN ADDITION< SO THEY ARE SUPPLIED<

NOTE> 9 SOME ADDITIONAL DISCUSSIONS ARE ADDED ALONG WITH OTHER

INFORMATIONS<

SOME PREREQUISITS>?

SOME TERMS ARE STATED>?

6! OBJECTION MA=ER [ MUTARID>! > ONE WHO MA=ETH AN OBJECTION<

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http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/page-3http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/page-3http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/


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7! QUESTION>? A QUESTION IS NOT AN OBJECTION<

8! ANSWER>? THE WORD ANSWER MAY BE USED AS A REPLY TO A QUESTION OR AS

A REFUTATION OF AN OBJECTION<

9! CLAIM>? POSATI"E OR NEGATI"E STATEMENT<

:! PREREQUSIT>? A STATEMENT IF IT IS FALSE THEN IT IS IMPLIED THAT THE CLAIM

IS ALSO FALSE E"EN IF THE CLAIMENT HATH NOT STATED IT<

!PRELIMINARY>? THE STATEMENTS FROM WHICH A CLAIM IS PRO"ED<

! AIOM>? A STAEMENT WHICH CANNOTBE PRO"ED < [ INDEPENDENT AIOM! BUT

MAY BE USED TO PROOF A CLAIM ASSUMING TO BE TRUE YET NOT NECESSARILY

TRUE [AL US>U>L AL MAUD>U>AH!

OBJECTION6>?

Can we here consider the issue as to whether the Quran was created by Allah or is it the uncreated eternal

word of Allah? I personally believe that the Quran cannot be an uncreated phenomenon unless it is

propositioned that the Quran is Allah.

ANSWE!" #$E %&'EC#I%NE (A)E IS '*S# E+EA#IN, AN %- A,*(EN# #$A# A I/INE A##I&*#E IS

IEN#ICA- #% I/INE ESSENCE 01!A!#2.

I3 Q*AN IS N%# A CEA#I%N #$EN I# IS N%# NECESSA4 #$A# I# IS A--5$ 0I.E I# IS IEN#ICA- #% I/INE

ESSENCE2 SINCE AN I/INE A##I&*#E IS IEN#ICA- #% EI#4 0I.E EI#46S ESSENCE2

&*# ACC%IN, #% (A'%I#4 %3 A$-*SS*NNA$ I/INE A##I&*#ES AE NEI#$E IEN#ICA- #% ESSENCE

N% SE+AA#E 3%( ESSENCE 7 -A 7AIN /A -A ,$AI8

$%W E/E A (IN%I#4 %3 A$-*SS*NNA$ % A,EE #$A# A-- #$E I/INE ESSEN#IA- A##I&*#ES %3 EI#4

AE IEN#ICA- #% EI#4. #$IS %&'EC#I%N EQ*IES #% +%/E #$A# AN4 #$IN, I3 *NCEA#E #$EN I# IS

IEN#ICA- #% #$E I/INE ESSENCE. #$IS C-AI( IS %NE %3 #$E WEA)ES# C-AI( . (*#I1I-I#ES A-S%

A##E(+#E #% +%/E #$IS C-AI( &*# N% %NE $A/E 0+ESEN#E AN4 C%N/INCIN, +%%3 . N%# A SIN,-E

%NE.

OBJECTION#2:=

Is this tantamount to saying that Quran, Allah's words, are not eternal? If the Quran is not eternal, it is not the

truth – for t&(th h+ 4ece++&i/' t) 3e ete&4/<

ANSWER:

!"I# $E%AS ARE N& EERNA( )EN A**&R%IN+ & )E &-E*I&NA( .A/ER )E0 .1S N& E

R1E2

A N1.ER )IN%1S E(IE$E )A $E%AS ARE E.33&RA( 4 N& EERNA("

1 IS +IA EERNA( 2 I# N& )EN I IS N& R1)2 )E SA.E Q1ESI&N IS A&1 .A)A

A)RAA .AN1 E*2

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AN0 )&W )E *(AI. )A 56 #&R R1) IS IS NE*ESSAR0 & E EERNA(66 IS #A(SE AN% A

#A(SE %&+.A2

W)A A&1 )E )1.AN &%0 /RIS)NA 2 IS I EERRNA( &R N&2

2] IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A THING TO BE TRUTH, THAT IT MUST BE ETERNAL.

ETERNITY IS JUST THE SUFFICIENT CONDITION FOR A THING TO BE TRUTH , NOTNECESSARY.SO THIS OBJECTION IS IN CORRECT.

3] IF GITA IS NOT ETERNAL THEN ACCLORDING TO THE OBJECTION MAKER IT IS NOT

TRUTH EVEN IF IT AND DEITY ARE ONE IN ESSENCE. SINCE ONENESS OF ESSENCE CAN

NOT MAKE ANY THING TRUE OTHERWISE THERE CANNOT BE ANY BOOKTHING WHICH

IS FALSHOOD. THIS IS CONTRARY TO OBSEVATION.

!] NOT"ETERNITY IMLIETH NOT FALSEHOOD.

T$%& '$( )*+- '$+' t&(th h+ 4ece++&i/' t) 3e ete&4/ i+ %ith )(t 4' *&)), %ht +) e2e&<

&-7E*I&N87:

If the Quran is Allah's words and Allah is eternal, then )is words are eternal2 It ma9es asolutely no sense to

draw a distin;tion etween +od and +od's words2 he same ;an e said for +od and +od's thoughts2 Are

+od's thoughts not eternal e;ause that would


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1 )ERE IS N& 3R& A A(( #&R )E *(AI. A&$E2 A(( )E 3&SSII(E AS3E*S AN% WA0S

)E A((E+E% 3R&S )A$E EEN S1%IE%2S& )IS IS A #A((A*02 %I$INE 3&WER .A/E) N&

E*E3I&N2 A(S& NEI)ER SE3ARAE N&R I%ENI*A( IS N& SE3ARAE, (AW E*(1SI&N

.I%%(E IS N& A33(I*A(E IN )IS RE+AR%2

A GENERAL DISCUSSION:"

IT IS REQUIRED TO SHEW THAT THIS DOES MA=E APERFECT SENSE SO THAT ONE

MAY SEE THAT THE CLAIM THAT IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MA=E A SENSE IS

FALSIFIED<

A DISCUSSION ON THE AIOM>?

IF A STATEMENT IS AN AIOM THEN EITHER IT IS AN INDEPENDENT AIOM OR NOT<

IF IT IS NOT THEN ACTUALLY IT IS A THEOREM WHICH IS PO"EABLE BUT IT IS

TA=EN WITH OUT ANY PROOF< IF IT IS AN INDIPENDANT AIOM THEN IT IS

IMPOSSIBLE TO PRO"E IT IN THE SYSTEM < WE SHALL USE THE WORD AIOM AND

ITS DERI"ATIONS IN THE SENSE OF INDEPENDENT ONE FROM NOW ON<

IF A STATEMENT IS TA=EN AIOMATICALLY THEN IN A SYSTEM IT CANNOT BE

PRO"ED< IT MAY BE THE CASE THAT AN OTHER PERSON TA=ES AN OTHER

STATEMENT AS AN AIOM<

THE AIOM K ONLY GOD IS ETERNAL K IS THE AIOM OF MUTIILITES< E"EN

PHILOSOPHERS DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM ON THE ISSUE< ON THE CONTRARY

MAJORITY OF RELIGIONS REPLACES THIS AIOM

BY AN OTHER AIOM WHICH IS GI"EN AS FOLLOW>?

ONLY DEITY IS AN ETERNAL ESSENCE<

ACTUALLY THE CLAIM THAT DI"INE ATTRIBUTES ARE NOT THE DEITY DOES NOT

MA=E ANY SENSE IS DERI"ED FROM THIS AIOM< THIS CONTRADICTS THIS AIOM

THAT IS THE REASON IT IS CLAIMED THAT THIS MA=E NO SENSE ABSOLUTELY< AS IT

DOES MA=E A PERFECT SENSE BUT THIS SENSE CONTRADICTS THE STATED ABO"E

AIOM THERE FORE IT IS INCORRECTLY CLAIMED THAT IT MA=ES NO SENSE<

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE OBJECTION MA=ER HAS USED THE WORD AIOM IN THE

CLASSIC MEANING WHICH MAY BE STATES AS FOLLOW>?

An a@iom is a =remise so e

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-evidencehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-evidence


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tht i+ ++(5ed t) 3e t&(e %ith)(t 4' *&)), i4 S'+te5 ), +tte5e4t+ 4d i+ i5*)++i3/e t) 3e

*&)2ed i4 the +'+te5< I, die&e4t +'+te5 i+ ch)+e4 the&e 5' 3e 4 1i)5 c)4t&dicti4- thi+

1i)5<

I, the+e )3.ecti)4 5ke&+ 1i)5ti0e thei& +'+te5 the' 5' (+e it + 4 i4de*e4de4t 1i)5< B(t

e2e&' thi4- +t)*+ he&e<

2] THERE IS ONLY ONE ETERNAL IS AT MOST A THEOREM OF MU7TI8ILITE AND JAHMITE

SYSTEM, IF THEIR RESECTIVE SYSTEMS OF BELIEVES ARE A9OMATI8ED. BUT ACTUALLY IT

IS NOT AN INDEENDENT A9IOM, BUT A THEOREM,AND THAT IS THE REASON THEY ALSO

ATTEMT TO ROVE IT. THEY INDEENDENT A9IOM IS THERE IS ONLY ONE ESSENCE THAT IS

A NECESSARY E9ISTENT .FROM THIS IT IS ATTEMTED TO ROVE THERE IS ONLY ONE

ETERNAL. BUT THE CLAIM THERE IS ONLY ONE ETERNAL ESSENCE CAN BE ROVED. IF A

DUEL SYSTEM IS TAKEN, WHERE THERE IS ONLY ONE ETERNAL ESSENCE WHICH E9ISTETH

IS TAKEN AS AN INDEENDENT A9IOM, EVEN THEN IT IS NOT AN EASY TASK TO ROVE THE

CLAIM THERE IS ONLY ONE ETERNAL IN THE SYSTEM.

CONCLUSION:= THIS IS NOT AN A9IOM.

SOME REASONS:=

IT IS TRIED TO MAKE THE SENSE CLEAR:=

1]DivIne Attributes are Not Te Deit! Sin"e tere is at#east a #o$i"a# DISTINCTION %I& not a Rea# Distin"tion] O& Divine Attributes

&ro' te Divine Essen"e %i(e Deit!]) Tus a Lo$i"a# *#ura#it! (Tus in tis sense A## Attributes o& Deit! are te Deit!(

Tis is + Sin$u#arit! is *#ura#it! an, *#ura#it! is Sin$u#arit!( But Divine Essen"e is Abso#ute Sin$u#arit! - .i" "ontra,i"t a## sorts

an, t!/es o& /#ura#it! .it out an! e0"e/tion .at so ever(

% I& tere is an Abso#ute Sin$u#arit! ten te Divine Essen"e is On#! Itness an, notin$ but Itness( No. i& A## Divine Attributes

Are Divine Essen"e i(e Deit! ten ea" one o& te Attribute O& Deit! is notin$ but Itness( Tere &ore Divine O'nis"ien"e "easet

Si'i#ar#! O'no/oten"e be"o'et Itness et"(

No *#ura#it! O& Attributes 2ust .or,s use, &or *ure Itness in te Divine Case(

3] Su//ose te Divine Essen"e re,u"es to O'nis"ien"e an, on#! O'nis"ien"e - an, notin$ but O'nis"ien"e- ten It is

Abso#ute) I'/ossib#e tat O'ni/oten"e is Deit! %i(e Divine Essen"e]( Hen"e O'ni/oten"e be"o'et Abso#ute)Absur, 4/on

Divine Essen"e(

5] I& it is a""e/te, tat tere are t.o t!/es o& Sin$u#arities( A] One tat is *#ura#it! %in So'e Sen"e]

B] One tat is not *#ura#it! In An! Sen"e .it out E0"e/tion .at so evrer]

Ten Deit! is Abso#ute Sin$u#arit! te t!/e B state, above(

%] 6urter ,is"ussions O'itte, &or sa7e o& brevit! ( But tis is In Saa 8A##) Su&&i"ient to "onve! te sense an, te "on"e/t

To tose .o tin7 it 'eanin$#ess( Sin"e .eter a""e/te, or re2e"te,- .eter true or untrue but it is 'eanin$ &u# not

'eanin$ #ess- an, ABSOL4TTEL9 NOT ABSOL4TEL9 MEANIN LESS](

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OBJECTION #4:=

Allah created by willin9 creation into e:istence. Since Allah is eternal; his power to will would also beeternal. So what $e has willed once he can always will a9ain. Quran accepts this when it says that thou9h

you and I would die; Allah would will us bac< to life on the day of =ud9ement 5 and then we would live

forever; either in heaven or hell. T$(4(;04( ; A**+$ & ('(41+*, $& )4(+'01 & +*&0 ('(41+*.

T$(4(;04( ; A**+$ & ('(41+*, $& )4(+'01 & +*&0 ('(41+*.

#his notion of separateness >maya6 in $indu parlance@ e:ists as a part of Allah6s celebration of $imself

>leela6 in $indu parlance@.

ANSWE!"

#$IS IS I(+%SSI&-E AN A&S*.

SINCE EI#4 A--5$ IS N%# A CEA#I%N. EI#4 IS E#ENA- AN CEA#I%N IS N%# E#ENA-.

E#ENA- AN N%N E#ENA- CANN%# &E SA(E SINCE I# IS N%#$IN, &*# CEA#I%N IS N%# A CEA#I%N.

EI#4 IS N%# A CEA#I%N ; AN A CEA#I%N IS N%# A EI#4.

E/EN A4A SA(A'IS A-S% A,EE %N #$IS +%INE. S% #$E %&'EC#I%N (A)E IS A +AN#$EIS#. N% #$IN, NEW;

$E E+EA#S AN %- A,*(EN#.

I3 I/INE CEA#I%NS AE E#ENA- #$EN #$E4 AE N%# CEA#I%NS. #$E &ASIC AI%(S AE AS 3%--%W!"

B2 ,%EI#4 IS N%# A CEA#I%N.

D2 EI#4 IS E#ENA-

2 CEA#I%N IS N%# E#ENA-.

F2 CEA#I%N IS N%# EI#4G,%.

S% #$IS C-AI( E*SES #% #$E C-AI( E/E4 #$IN, IS EI#4 . #$EE IS N% CEA#I%N

W$4 #% CA-- A #$IN, A CEA#I%N I3 I# IS E#ENA-.

#$*S E/E4 #$IN, E*CES #% #$E &E-IE/E !"

E/E4 #$IN, #$A# %ES EIS# IS ,% .

#$IS I(+-IES %N-4 E#ENA- ,%S EIS# AN %NE #$A# IS N%# E#ENA- IS I(+%SSI&-E #% EIS# A# W%S# %

%E#$ N%# EIS# A# &ES#.

N%# E/EN A-- $IN* SEC#S A,EE WI#$ S*C$ A &E-IE/E AN #$IS IS A &E-IE/E %3 '*S# A (IN%I#4 %3

$IN*S 0%NE -I)E #$E %&'EC#I%N (A)E2 E'EC#E &4 A ,EA# (A'%I#4 %3 $IN* C*-#S AN SEC#S.

#$E ES*-# S#A#E &E-%W IS N%# 3%--%WE 3%( #$E +E(EISSES.

T$(4(;04( ; A**+$ & ('(41+*, $& )4(+'01 & +*&0 ('(41+*.

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THEN UNDER THESE TWO SUOSITIONS THE CONUNDRUM IS VALID UON

UR7AN.

LET IT BE SUOSED THAT:=

URAN IS EITHER A DIVINE ATTRIBUTE OR A DIVINE ACT.3

GOD ,DIVINE ATTRIBUTES AD DIVINE ACTS ALL ARE ONE IN

ESSENCE,NATURE,GODHEAD,OUSIA ETC.

THEN

T$( C01%14%- & INVALD 01 %4+1.

A OSSIBLE OBJECTION :=

IF GOD, ATTRIBUTES OF GOD AND ACTSDOINGS OF GOD ALL ARE ONE IN

ESSENCE THEN IT IS IMLIED THAT GOD AND CREATIONS

ARE ALSO ONE IN ESSENCE.

RELYING THE OBJECTION:=

Tere is no su" i'/#i"ation( It is "ertain#! not i'/#ie, ( Tus te "#ai' o& tis t!/e o& I'/#i"ation is 6a#se

An, 4ntrue(

As tere is no a##e$e, I'/#i"ation - te te "onun,ru' i& "orre"t is on#! >a#i, i& :=

1] ?4RAN Is A Creation(

]?uran an, o, are Not One In Essen"e(

But I& ?uran Is An Atrribute O& o, @ Deit! or I& ?uran Is An A"t O& Deit! @o, ten te Conun,ru' be"o'et

Inva#i, Sin"e :=

Attributes O& o, -A"ts O& o, an, o, A## Are One In Essen"e(

HIND4 SECTS AND C4LTS:=

Tere are severa# Hin,u se"ts an, "u#ts an, te ,o ,i&&er about te Eternit! o& >e,as- Oness O& Essn"e o,

an, His Creations et"( So Not A## Hin,us A$rree .it te ob2e"tion 'a7ers(

So'e Mus#i's Ho. Ever Be#ieve Tat o, an, Creations are One In Esse(

I& te Ob2e"tion @Conun,ru' be"o'es inva#i, i& o, an, Creations are Su//ose, to be One In Essen"e- It Is

Abso#ute#! Lo$i"a# tat te Ob2e"tion @Conun,ru' be"o'es Inva#i, i& o, an, His Creations Are One In

Esse(

So'e Mus#i's be#ieve tat o, is te Essen"e o& a## o& His Creations- Attributes- A"ts Sin"e:=

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%In tese "ases su" "onun,ru's ,o be"o'e be"o'e inva#i,( ]

DEITY Giveth sustenance to All Things,The Existence of each and every Sustained thing right from its Creation. In other ords, e ill

have to admit that the !orld and Every Thing In The !orld Is Sustained "y God#Deity $ence Deity Is The Essence%f Every Creation. So Deity Is The Essence %r Esse %r "oth %f A Thing to !hich Deity Giveth Sustenance.&ot In The Sense '(eaning Deity Is A Creation.N0'( :="ALL THE MUSLIMS BELIEVE THAT DIVINE ESSENCE AND DEITY ARE IDENTICALI.E ONE AND THE SAME. I1 O'$(4 W04& G0$(+ I& G0 +1 G0 I& G0$(+.THE FLAW IN THE CONUNDRUM:=I; '$( O@()'01 M+(4 $+?( 1)044()'* +&&%-( T$+' E'$(4 %47+1 I& A1E&&(1)( O4 T$( E&&(1)( O; %4+1 I& D&'1)' F40-T$( E&&(1)( O; D(' 01* '$(1 '$& C01%14%- -+ $+?(& &0-( &1>(1)(.T$+' &


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6969IF IT IS ASSUMED THAT ALL THINGS ARE ONE IN ESSENCE WITH DEITY E"EN THEN ONLY DEITY IS UNCURRUPTRABE

AND IMMUTABLE< TO CLAIM THAT CREATIONS ARE ALSO UNCORRUPTABLE AND IMMUTABLE CANNOT BE ACCEPTED

E"EN IF THEY ARE ONE WITH DEITY IN DI"INE ESSENCE<

A COUNTER CONUNDRUM FOR THE OBJECTION MA=ER AS ACCORDING TO HIS THEOLOGIGAL BAC= GROUND>?

I, C&et)4+ O, Deit' 4d the Deit' &e O4e i4 E++e4ce the4 Eithe& the C&eti)4 i+ Ete&4/ )& N)t<

I, the C&eti)4 I+ Ete&4/ The4 It i+ eithe& The Deit' O& N)t<

I, it i+ the Deit' the4 the&e &e t%) *&)3/e5+<

6! It i+ 4)t the C&eti)4 Si4ce Deit' i+ 4)t the C&eti)4 Othe& %i+e it i+ i5*/ied tht the C&eti)4 i+ 4)t the

C&eti)4 < A4 A3+)/(te A3+(dit'


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1 %EI0 )AS &.NI3&EN*E &$ER 3&SSI(ES AN% *&NIN+ENS E$EN I# )E0 ARE

I.3R&A(E2 1 I IS -1S A 3ERS&NA( IN*(INAI&N &WAR%S I.3R&AI(I0 ,E$EN

I.3R&AI(I0 IS N& 3R&$E%2 I IS E0&N% )E S*&3E )E W&R/ & IN%1(+E IN )E

.A/ER, SIN*E IN IS A N&N EN%IN+ AN% 1SE (ESS W&R/ & %IS*1SS IN%I$I%1A( .IN%S AN%

RAINS, (I/ENESS IN*(INAI&NS E*2

IT MUST BE KNOWN THAT A THING [ IN THE MOST GENMERAL SENSE WHICH INCLUDETH

EXISTENTS AND NON-EXISTENTS] IS OF THE FOLLOWEING TYPES.

1] ABSOLUTE –POSSIBLE [ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE]

2[ ABSOLUTE –IMPOSSIBLE [ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE]

3] ABSOLUTE –NECESSARY [ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY]

] RELATI!E NECESSARY [ RELATI!ELY NECESSARY]

"] RELATI!E IMPOSSIBLE [RELATI!E IMPOSSIBLE]

IF #URAN IS CREATION THEN CCORRUPTION IS RELATI!E IMPOSSIBLE.

A RELATI!E IMPOSSIBLE NE!ER OCCURS IN THREE TYPES OF TIME I.E PAST$ PRESENT AND

FUTURE.

SINCE DEITY IS THE SA!IOR OF AL #UR%AN AND SA!ING OF #URAN IS RELATI!E-NECESSARY

[RELATI!ELY NECESSARY]. CORRUPTION OF #URAN IS NOT RELATI!E NECESSARY. DEITY IS AN ABSOLUTE

FREE AGENT AND DEITY CHOSETH THE CONSER!ATION AND SA!ING OF THE #URAN .

SO E!EN IF CORRUPTION OF #URAN IS POSSIBLE IT IS A SUB&ECT OF POSSIBILITY OF

CORRUPTION$ NOT OF THE OCCURRENCE OF CORRUPTION. IF #URAN IS A CREATION E!EN THEN IT IS NOT

THE SUB&ECT OF CORRUPTION IN THE LINE OF ACTUALITY.

NOTE'( THE OB&ECTION MAKER SAYS'(

In the Qur'an I see s=ee;hes eing gi


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YOU MAY HA!E ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE OF !EDIC RELION,,..[ ONE MAY SEE THE !EDIC !ERSE

HIMSELF $IF HESHE WANTS TO SEE THE ENTIRE !ERSE].

DOES THIS NOT SHEW THAT !EDAS ARE NOT ETERNAL/

THIS DOES SHEW THAT SOME GENERATIONS HAD PASSED WHEN !EDAS SAID THIS TO THE

AUDIENCE GENERATIN. THIS DOES SHEW !EDAS ARE NOT ETERNAL. IF THE GENERATIONS ARE LI'LA

[ CELEBRATIONS0 IN DI!INE ESSENCE E!EN THEN THEY ARE NOT ETERNAL. ASTLEAST ONE WHICH IS THE

AUDIENCE OF !EDAS. THIS DOES IMPLY NON-ETERNITY OF !EDAS ACCORDING TO THE STANDERD OF THE

LEARNED OB&ECTION MAKER.

ANSWERIN+ )E &-E*I&NS &N 1R(:

htt*>@@%%%


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I/INE -I3E 0 I/INE /I#A2 IS *NCEA#E AN E#ENA-. #$E -I3E W$IC$ IS *NE ISC*SSI%N IS #$E N%N

5I/INE -I3E. I# SI(+-4 (A4 &E SEEN #$A# -I/IN, #$IN, 0 /I#A- #$IN,S2 &%N AN IE. -I3E %3 A -I/IN,

CEA#E S*++%SI#*( IS CEA#E SINSE E/E4 A##I&*#E %3 A -I/IN, CEA#E #$IN, % /I#A- CEA#E

#$IN, IS CEA#E. %NE (*S# IS#IN,*IS$ &E#WEEN #$E E#ENA- -I3E %3 EI#4 ; AN N%N E#ENA- -I/ES

%3 A-I/E CEA#I%NS.W$EN I# IS SAI EI#4 (AE -I3E I# %ES N%# (EAN #$A# EI#4 (AE A-- -I/ES

INC-*IN, $IS %WN -I3E. SI(I-A-4 %3 I# IS SAI #$A# EI#4 I (A)E A-- ESSENCES ; I# %ES N%# (EAN

EI#4 (AE $IS %WN ESSENCE AS WE--. #$EE IS A A#I%NA- NECESSA4 ECE+#I%N 3% #$E I/INEA##I&*#ES. I3 I# IS NE,-EC#E #$EN EI#4 CANN%# E/EN &E %(N%SCIENCE SINCE #$EE IS A S#A#E(EN#

" N% %NE )N%WE#$ #$A# IS A #*E S#A#E(EN#. I# IS A,*E #$A# #$IS S#A#E(EN# C%N#AIC#S

I/INE %(NISCIENCE. #$E ANSWE IS #$A# EI#46S %(NISCINCE IS A SE-3 NECESSA4 ECE+#I%N 3%( #$IS

SEN#ENCE.

-I3E %3 EI#4 IS AN A##I&*#E %3 EI#4 AN EIS#ENCE IS AN %#$E A##I&*#E %3 EI#4. A N*(&E %3

#$E%-%,IANS (A)E A SE+AA#E CASE %3 #$E EIS#ENCE GESSE %3 EI#4.

SINCE I3 I# IS SAI #$A#8 #$E E#ENA- ESSENCE IS N%# A-I/E &*# EIS#S8 I# #$%*,$ I(+-4 A&S*I#IES

&*# (%E A&S*I#IES AE I(+-IE I3 I# IS SAI 7 E#ENA- ESSENCE %ES N%# EIS#; &*# IS A-I/E.

+%&-E( %3 ANCE AN ANCE!

ANCE IS AN AC# %3 #$E S*&'EC# ANCE. #$E W% SE+AA#E IS *SE IN I33EEN# (EANIN,S!"

I# (A4 &E *SE IN #$E SENSE %3 #W% INE+ENEN# #$IN,S; I# (A4 &E E/EN *SE 3% #$E IS#INC#I%N %3

AN A##I&*E 3%( AN ESSENCE ; % AN ACCIEN# 3%( A S*&S#ANCE.

NEI#$E AN A##I&*#E IS +E SE S*&SIS#EN# N% AN ACCIEN# IS +E SE S*&SIS#EN#. &%#$ %3 #$E(

S*&SIS# IN S%(E #$IN, +E SE S*&SIS#EN#. #$EE IS A -%# %3 ISC*SSI%N A&%*# S*&S#ANCES

;ACCIEN#S;ESSENCES AN A##I&*#ES . IN#EES#E +E%+-E (A4 SEE S*C$ ISC*SSI%NS W$IC$ AE

+ESEN# IN #$%*SAN AN #$%*SAN %3 +A,ES. #% ISC*SS $EE IS '*S# #% WAS#E #$E #I(E %3 #$E

EES. IN#EES#E +E%+-E (A4 SEE #$ESE #%+ICS 3%( +$I-%S%+$ICA- W%)S &%#$ C-ASSICA- AN

(%EN. %NE E/EN *SE A ,%% SEAC$ EN,INE #% S#*4 #$E #%+IC AS WE--.

$%W E/E ASS*(IN, #$A# #$IS #%+IC (A4 &E NEW #% S%(E %3 #$E EAES A /E4 &IE3 ISC*SSI%N IS

,I/EN &E-%W!"

B2 A S*&S#ANCE IS A #$IN, W$IC$ S*S#AINS AN S*&SIS#S %N-4 IN I# SE-3.

D2 A S*&S#ANCE IS A #$IN, W$IC$ CAN N%# &E +AICA#E #% AN4 #$IN, ECE+# I# SE-3. 0 N%#E #$E

NECESSA4 ECE+#I%N2.

2 ACC%IN, #% S+IN%1%A!"

A S*&S#ANCE IS %NE #$A# IS C%NCIE/E IN I# SE-3 &4 I# SE-3.

ACCIEN#!"

B2 AN ACCIEN# IS A #$IN, W$IC$ S*&SIS#S AN S*S#AINS IN S%(E #$IN, E-SE.

D2 AN ACCIEN# IS A #$IN, W$IC$ CAN &E +AICA#E #% A S*&S#ANCE.

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2 AN ACCIEN# IS %NE #$A# IS N%# C%NCIE/E IN I#SE-3 &4 I# SE-3.

#$E%-%,IANS I33E W$E#$E #$E W% S*&S#ANCE CAN &E *SE 3% I/NE ESSENCE % N%#.

A -A,E N*(&E %3 #$E%-%,IANS &E-IE/E #$A# S*&S#ANCE E#E(INES AN ESSENCE IN N%N I/INE

CASES.S%(E #$IN) #$A# I/INE ESSENCE AN I/INE S*&S#ANCE G %*SIA AE %NE AN #$E SA(E. A N*(&E

%3 #$IN)ES E/EN EN4 S*&S#ANCES % ACCIEN#S. #$EE AE /AIE#IES %3 #$%*,$#S %N #$E ISS*E.

AN4 $%W AN AC# IS AN ACCIEN# W$E#$E I# IS #$E AC# %3 ANCIN, % AC# %3 *NNIN, E#C.

IN W$A# SENSE I# IS SE+AA#E 3%( #$E S*&'EC# IS #$A# I# IS N%# #$E S*&S#ANCE &*# #$E S*&'EC#

0 %EGAC#%A,EN#2 %3 #$E AC# IS A S*&S#ANCE.

S#AN,E-4 #$E %'EC#I%N (A)E ISC*SSES #$E ISS*E AS I# IS A NEW %&'EC#I%N ; W$EE AS I# $AS &EEN

ISC*SS SINCE A,ES.

+%&-E( %3 I/INE A##I&*#ES!"

#$E S#A#E(EN# ,I/EN &E-%W $AS (AN4 +%&-E(S!"

4ou cannot separate the dancer from his dance. Like%i+e %ith the c&et)& 4d c&eti)4<

-i


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S%(E #I(E I# IS *SE IN #$E (EANIN, %3 %NE #$A# IS CEA#E .

SI(I-A-4 #$E W% SE+AA#E IS A-S% *SE IN I33EEN# (EANIN,S AN SENSES.

E(AN!"

I# IS N%# +%SSI&-E #$A# EI#4 AN $IS CEA#I%NS AE %NE IN ESSENCE. I3 S%(E %NE &E-IE/ES #$A# EI#4

AN $IS CEA#I%NS AE %NE IN ESSENCE ; #$EN #$E NECESSA4 +EEQ*ISI# %3 #$IS C-AI( IS 7 I# IS

+%SSI&-E #$A# EI#4 AN $IS CEA#I%NS AE %NE IN ESSENCE. %NE $AS #% +%/E #$A# #$IS IS +%SSI&-E?

A +%SSI&-E %&'EC#I%N!"

I# (A4 &E ES+%NSE #$A# I# IS #$E I(+%SSI&I-I#4 W$IC$ EQ*IE#$ +%%3 N%# #$E +%SSI&I-I#4. SI(+-4

#$E A&SENSE %3 +%%3S %3 I(+%SSI&I-I#4 +%/ES I#S +%SSI&I-I#4.

N%#E #$EE IS N%#$IN, NEW!"

Aristotle there are 10 categories into which things naturally fall. They are AS FOLLOW:=

1] SUSTA!"#.

$] A""%!TS li'e (uality) (uantity) *elation)Action)+assion)Ti,e

)S-ace)Arrange,ent)*ain,ent. So to iscuss what so e/er is iscusse since centuries as if it is

so,e thing new is not correct. #/ery Stuent Of +hiloso-hy nows that Sustance is notAccient an /ice /ersa) now call it Se-arate or coin an other wor for it ) the ,eaning is sa,e.

!ote :A large nu,er of theologians an +hiloso-hers o i/ie creations in two ty-es.

1] #ssences. $] Attriutes.

%f "reations #2ist in &i/ine #ssence then "reate #ssences also #2ist %n &i/ine #ssence.Thisi,-lieth -lurality Of #ssences in &i/ine #ssence.

This is i,-ossile since &i/ine #ssence is +er Se #2clusi/e to #ssences to e in %t.

THE CLAIM IS BASED ON A FALSE ANALOGY. IT IS INCORRECT TO ANALOGUE DANCE AND CREATION. IT IS JUST TO

NEGLECT THE INTRINSIC CHARACTERSTICS OF TWO DIFFERENT ACTS.ALSO IT IS AN INCORRECT TO SUGGEST AN

ANALOGY BETWEEN THE RELATION OF DEITY AND DIVINE ATTRIBUTE AND RELATION OF CREATION OF DEITY AND

DEITY.

NOTE> Nt(&e i+ de+c&i3ed +>?

The i4t&i4+ic )& i4di+*e4+3/e $(/it' )& $(/itie+ tht +e&2e t) ch&cte&i0e )& ide4ti,' +)5ethi4->

S)5e ti5e the te&5 E++e4ce i+ /+) (+ed i4 thi+ 5e4i4-< B(t i4 thi+ %)&k the Te&5 E++e4cei+ 4)t (+ed i4 thi+

5e4i4-<

ANSWE5D!"

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A RESPONSE TO THE SECOND PART.

B2 WE E'EC# #$IS #$E%4 AN %+# 3% A +%%3 %N EAC$ %NE %3 #$E(.3IS# +%/E #$E %,(A #$EN

A,*E &4 #$E %,(A. 0 #$IS IS #$E (A#$E(A#ICA- A++%AC$ 2

D2 I3 I# IS ACCE+#E #$A# A&SENCE %3 +%%3S %3 I(+%SSI&I-I#4 IS A +%%3 %3 +%SSI&I-I#4 IN ,ENEA-;

E/EN #$EN IN E,A #% #$E I/INE ESSENCE #$EE IS A NECESSA4 ECE+#I%N.

2I3 EI#4 AN CEA#I%NS EIS# AN S*&SIS# IN %NE AN #$E SA(E ESSENCE ; E/EN #$EN I# IS ACCE+#E

#$A# EI#4 IS IN3A--A&-E AN CEA#I%NS AE 3A--A&-E AN EI#4 AN CEA#I%NS AE N%# EQ*A-2

F2(A#$E(A#ICA--4! EI#4"G" CEA#I%NS.

L2 -E# EI#4 AN AN4 %NE %3 #$E CEA#I%N SA4 C AE IN %NE ESSENCE. A (%E +%WE3*- AN S#%N,E

CASE #$AN #$E4 AE '*S# %NE IN ESSENCE.

N%W #$EE AE '*S# #W% %+#I%NS!

B2 CEA#I%N C IS EI#4 .

D2 CEA#I%N C IS N%# EI#4.

I3 CEA#I%N C IS EI#4 #$EN AS CEA#I%N C IS 3A--A&-E #$E EI#4 IS 3A--A&-E.

I3 CEA#I%N C IS A S*&'EC# %3 3A--A&I-I#4 #$EN #$E EI#4 IS A-S% I#S S*&'EC#. &*# #$IS IS ENIE &4

#$E %&'EC#I%N (A)E.

I3 CEA#I%N C IS N%# #$E EI#4 AN IS 3A--A&-E #$EN I# (EANS #$A# #$IN,S S*&'EC# #% 3A--A&I-I#4 AN

C%*+#I%N C%5EIS# WI#$ EI#4 IN %NE AN #$E SA(E ESSENCE. #$E EIS#ENCE IN %NE AN #$E SA(E

ESSENCE %E#$ N%# (A)E CEA#I%NS IN3A--A&-E AN *NC%*+#A&-E.

W$A# S% E/E IS #*E 3% #$E S#%N, CASE IS E3INI#E-4 #*E %3 #$E WEA)E CASE #$A# CEA#I%NS

AN EI#4 AE %NE IN ESSENCE. S% I3 CEA#I%NS AN EI#4 AE %NE IN ESSENCE E/EN #$EN CEA#I%NS AE

S*&'EC# #% C%*+#I%N AN 3A--I&I-I#4. #$IS E3*#ES #$E +A# %3 C%N*N*( .

I; '$( %4+1 & )4(+'(, '$(1 ' & &%@()' '0 )044%


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7676 [ See +tted 3)2e Re+)4 ,)& the de54d ), *&)),!<

DEITY AND CREATIONS CANNOT BE ONE ON THE STANDARD OF THE OBJECTION

MA=ERS>?

IF IT IS ASSUMED THAT DEITY AND ALL OF HIS CREATIONS ARE ONE IN

ESSENCE THEN THERE ARE FOLLOWING ! CASES:=

] THE ESSENCE IS NEITHER CREATIONS NOR DEITY.2] ESSENCE IS

CREATIONS.3] ESSENCE IS ONE OF THE CREATION!]ESSENCE IS THE

DEITY.IF THE ESSENCE IS NEITHER THE CREATIONS NOR THE DEITY THEN

THIS IS INCORRECT.SINCE THE OBJECTION MAKER THINKS THAT IT MAKES

NO SENSE TO CONSIDER DIVINE ATTRIBUTES SEARATE FROM DEITY. SO

THE OBJECTION MAKER IS COMEL NOT NO SEARATE DIVINE ESSENCE

FROM THE DEITY AN HE MUST THINK THAT IT RIMERILY MAKES NO SENSE

AT ALL TO MAKE A SEERATION BETWEEN DIVINE ESSENCE AND DEITY.IFTHE DIVINE ESSENCE IS ALL OF THE CREATIONS OR ONE OF THE

CREATIONS THEN IT IS A CREATION.IF A CREATION THEN IT CANNOT BE THE

ESSENCE OF THE DEITY.IF IT IS ASSUMED THAT DIVINE ESSENCE AND DETY

ARE ONE AND THE SAME ,THEN THE STATEMENTDEITY AND ALL OF HIS

CREATIONS ARE ONE IN ESSENCE REDUCES TO THE FOLLOWING

STATEMENT:=DEITY AND ALL OF HIS CREATIONS ARE IN IN DEITY HIMSELF.

SUCH A STRONG STATEMENT IMLIES THAT DEITY IS ALL OF HIS CREATION.

THIS IMLIES THAT DEITY IS A CREATION. IF DEITY IS A CREATION THEN

THE DEITY IS NOT THE DETY SINCE DEITY IS UNCREATED NECESSARILY.

DIFFERENT MEANINGS OF THE WORDS SEARATE AND SEERATION:=

THE WORD SEPARATE MAY BE USED IN DIFFERENT MEANINGS


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7777

ANSWEH!" I3 #$E -EANE %&'EC#%N (A)E $A S#*IE #$E $4(N %3 CEA#I%N IN /EA $E W%*-

N%# $A/E (AE #$IS %&'EC#I%N. I# &E,INS AS 3%--%W! 0IN #$E &E,INNI,2 #$EE WAS NEI#$E ASA# N%#

SA#. #$IS I(+-IES #$A# SA# IS N%# E#ENA-. IN E#ENI#4 I3 #$EE WAS N% SA# #$EN SA# IS CEA#I%N.

E#ENI#4 WI#$ %*# SA#. IS SA# E#ENA- % IS EI#4 N%# SA#? I3 SA# IS CEA#E #$EN SA# IS (%E +I(E

0E-A#I/E-4 +I(E #%2 #$EN /I#A 0-I3E2 . S% /EAS S*++%# Q*AN %N #$IS ISS*E;I.E I3 SA# IS CEA#E

#$EN /I#A IS A-S% CEA#E. I3 SA# IS E#ENA- #$EN #$IS C%N#AIC#S #$E -I#EA-(EANIN, %3 #$E $4(N

%3 CEA#I%N. I3 #$E %&'EC#I%N (A)E IN#E+E# #$E #E# %3 $4(N AN I3 $E $AS A I,$# #% % S% ;#$EN %#$ES $A/E A-S% #$IS I,$#; I.E I,$# #% IN#E+E# #E#S %3 #$EI $%-4 &%%)S .

%&'EC#I%NHM!"

I understand that in the sense that +od is one with )is energe!, therefore we are one with +od2

)oweA:

Only the Being of DEITY is Substance. All things are accidents or in the attributes of God.

This is one approach to Spinozis.

!OTE" THIS DIRECTLY IMPLY THAT CREATIONS ARE NOT THE DEITY SINCE CREATIONS ARE

NOT THE SUBSTANCE< THIS IS "ERY ANALOGOUS TO THE OBJECTION MA=ER;S "IEW<

#$AT T$E OB%E&TIO! 'A(E) SAID IS A TY*E O+ *A!T$EIS'.

T$E)E A)E SE,E)A- TY*ES O+ *A!T$EIS'.

T$IS IS O!E O+ T$E'.

DI+++E)E!T +O)'S O+ *A!T$EIS' AG)EE O! T$E +O--O#I!G &O''O! *OI!TS I!

GE!E)A-"

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6! Be4eth the **&e4t di2e&+it' 4d 5(/ti*/icit' ), thi4-+ the&e i+ )4e )4/' O4e

E1i+te4t %hich i+ A3+)/(t/' Nece++&' A3+)/(te Ete&4/ I44ite 4d I4de*e4de4t<

!OTE" THIS DIRECTLY IMPLY THAT CREATIONS ARE NOT THE DEITY SINCE CREATIONS ARE

NOT THE SUBSTANCE< THIS IS "ERY ANALOGOUS TO THE OBJECTION MA=ER;S "IEW<

N)te>? I, C&eti)4 i+ C)5*)+ite I, the C&eti)4 4d Deit' &e O4e I4 E++e4ce 4d I, the

C&eti)4 i+ Ete&4/ the4 the C&eti)4 i+ the Deit' Thi+ I5*/ieth

Tht THE DEITY IS COMPOSITE RIGHT IN DI"INE ESSENCE [I4 )the& %)&d+ G)d I+ C)5*)+ite

I4 Hi+ G)dhed!<

A 2e&' i4c)&&ect Re+(/t<

*antheis in general states that"

God and the /orld are one. NOTE > IF ONE THEN ONE IN ESSENCE<

#hether One says All &reated Things are One In Essence #ith God Or Say #orld is One In

Essence #ith God are alost one and sae thing /ith soe slight differences.

< The d)ct&i4e i+ ,)(4d i4 A4cie4t E-'*ti4 Re/i-i)4 4d e&/' I4di4 *hi/)+)*h' it **e&+

d(&i4- the c)(&+e ), hi+t)&' i4 -&et 2&iet' ), ,)&5+ i4 the +t&icte+t +e4+e i


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!ote5" I, the c&eti)4 h+ 4) E1i+te4ce *&t F&)5 Deit' it i+ 4)t i5*/ied tht the

c&eti)4 +(3+i+t+ i4 Deit' )& i4 Di2i4e E++e4ce< The +5e i+ t&(e ,)& the Di2i4e

E++e4ce +i4ce M.)&it' O, The)/)-i4+ 4d Phi/)+)*he&+ 3e/ie2e tht Di2i4e

E++e4ce 4d Di2i4e E1i+te4ce &e O4e 4d the S5e?

IF IT IS ARGUED THAT ALL NON ETERNAL THINGS SUBSIST OCCUR AND EIST IN

DI"INE ESSENCE THEN ITS PREREQUISIT IS THAT THEIR SUBSISTENCE OCCURRENCE

EISTENCE AND SUSTAINMENT ARE POSSIBLE AND CONTINGINT IN DI"INE

ESSENCE< BUT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLESINCE ANY THING WHICH EISTETH OR

SUBSISTETH ETC IN DI"INE ESSENCE SUBSISTETH OR EISTETH WITH INTRINSIC

NECESSITY AND IT IMMENENTLY SUBSISTETH WITH OUT ANY [POSSIBILITY OF

NEGATION OF NECESSICITY SUBSISTENCE [SUBSISTENS! ETC<

NOTE 9>?

IT MAY BE ARGUED THAT DEITY IS INFINE AND IF A CREATION EISTETH OUT OF

DEITY THEN THERE IS A LIMIT OF DEITY AND DEITY BECOMETH FINITE<

ANSWER< DEITY IS NOT INFINITE IN THE SPETIAL SENCE OR IN THE "OLUMATERIC

SENCE AS IT IS ASSUMED IN THIS OBJECTION<

DEITY IS INFINTE IN E"ERY =IND OF DI"INE PERFECTION AND EACH PERFECTION IS

INFINTELY PERFECT;< THE INFINTY OF DEITY REQUIRETH A SPECIAL DISCUSSION BUT

IT IS INFINITELY INCORRECT TO ASSUME THAT DEITY OCCUPY THE INFINITE SPACE

INFINITELY<

A "ERY WRONG INTERPRETATION OF INFINITY OF DEITY<

NOTE>:>? IT IS NOT THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT DEITY IS INFALLABLE AND

CREATIONS ARE FALLABLE BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER DIFFERENCES<

SOME OF OTHER DIFFERENCES ARE GI"EN BELOW>?

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7:7:

:6! DEITY IS IN"ULNERABLE AND CREATIONS ARE $1(NERA(E2 $1(NERA(IES *REAI&N ARE 1N%ENIA(E2

D," *REAI&NS ARE ANNI)A(AA(E AN% 3ERIS)A(E 1 %EI0 IS N&2

D,7" %EI0 IS AS&(1E AN% IN#INIE2 *REAI&NS ARE #INIE AN% N& AS&(1E2

D,F" %EI0 IS I..1A(E 1 *REAI&NS ARE .1A(E2

D,D" *REAI&NS ARE *REAI&N 1 %EI0 IS N& A *REAI&N2

D,G" %EI0 IS &.NIS*IEN 1 *REAI&NS ARE N&2

D,H" %EI0 IS &.NI3&EN 1 *REAI&NS ARE N&2

D," %EI0 IS )E (&R% *REAI&NS, 1 *REAI&NS ARE N& )E (&R%JSK %EI02 E*2

D2L" )E *(AI. )A )E %I$INE SE(# IS 5H)5)-e4)(+ Ki+ *&)), /e++ it i+ N)4 H)5)-e4e)(+< It i+

A3+)/(te/' Si5*/e< Pe&h*+ the c*cit' ), ce/e3&ti)4+ i4 the Di2i4e E++e4ce i+ te&5ed +

H)5)-e4eit' <

Thi+ i+ 2e&' c/)+e t) c/i5 tht Di2i4e Se/,E++e4ceO(+i i+ NOT ABSOLUTELY SIMPLE BUTINFINITELY COMPLE AND ULTIMATELY COMPLICATED<

A4)the& ,)&5 ), P4thei+5 i+ + ,)//)%>?

3antheism is the


26/54

77)ESE &-E*I&N .A/ERS SA0:

I understand that in the sense that +od is one with )is energe!" therefore we are one with +od2

)owe


27/54

77A+ thi+ i+ Se*&ti)4 4d the Le&4ed O3.ecti)4 Mke& d)e+ 4)t 3e/ie2e tht Di2i4e Att&i3(te+ &e Se*&te ,&)5

Deit' it i+ /ike/' tht he +h// 4)t 3e/ie2e tht Di2i4e E++e4ce i+ Se*&te ,&)5 the Deit' )4 P&i5&' G&)(4d+


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77

I &%)$A33+ !*I$K !*A! &5&$ I$ *I$-1I%4 !*& $)1$% 3IK& 07'747* )' 07'7*7$ A'& $)! !*& $)1$% )/ A33&&-

*&$)4&$A.!*& )06&(!I)$ 4AK&' I% $)! -&/&$-I$ A$+ *I$-1 %&(! 01! &'&%%I$ *I% )W$ I-&A%.

W*A! I/ ('&A!I)$% A$- -&I!+ A'& )$& I$ &%%&$(&.

=.=]I/ -&I!+ A$- ('&A!I)$% A'& )$& I$ &%%&$(& !*&$ !*&+ A'& )$& I$ $A!1'&. I/ )$& I$ $A!1'& !*&$ I! I% I4)%%I03& !)

*A5& !W) -I%!I$(! $A!1'&% )$& /A33A03& A$- )!*&' I$/A33A03& /)' !W) I$-I5I-1A3% I$ )$& &%%&$(&.

=.>] I/ !W) I$-I5I-1A3% A'& )$& I$ &%%&$(& A$- )$& )/ !*&4 I% -&I!+ !*&$ !*& )!*&' I$-I5I-1A3 I% A *+)%!A%I%. I/ !*I%

I% ()''&(! !*&$ '&&K )'!*)-) A'& &'/&(!3+ 'I*! W*&$ !*&+ %A+ !*A! !*& /I'%! *+)%!A%I% I% -&I!+ ,%&()$-

*+)%!A%I% I% -&I!+,A$- !*I'- *+)%!A%I% I% -&I!+ ? 01! W*&$ !*&+ 1%& !*& W)'- -&I!+@!*&)%@-&1% &!(.I$-&&$-&$! )/

A$+ 21A$!I/I&' !*&+ -) 4&A$ !*& /I'%! *+)%!A%I%, ()$!'A'+ !) ')4A$ (A!*)3I(% W*) I$ !*I% (A%& ()$%I-&' !*&

&$!I'& !'I$I!+ A% !*& %106&(! )/ !*& W)'-%B -&I!+ &!(. I$%!&A- )/ !*& /I'%! *+)%!A%I%. 01! !*I% I% $)! !*& (A%&

WI!* !*& )06&(!I)$ 4AK&' W*) 0&3I&5&% I$ CELEBIRATIONS IN DIVINE ESSENCE A$- NOT IN HYPOSTASES IN

DIVINE ESSENCE.

IT MAY BE NOTED THAT THE OBJECTION MAKERS DO BELIEVE THAT EACH CELEBRATION IS FALLABLE ,

AND DEITY IS NOT. HAD HE BELIEVED IN HYPOSTASES HE WOULD HAVE BELIEVED THAT THEY ARE NOT

FALLABLE.

1.3] ‘ALL-H [ARABIC TERERARAMATION ] IS THE PROPER NOUN OF DIVINE ESSENCE AND NOTHIN

BUT DIVINE ESSENCE , ESSENCE AS ESSENCE.

1.!] THE SAME IS TRUE FOR THE HEBREW TETRARAMATION IHVH .

"]LOICAL FLAW# T$% O&'%()*+ M%/ 00

I understand that in the sense that +od is one with )is energe!, therefore we are one with +od2

his ;an only e true when We are %i


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77

B1% %e De%2 ! 3er Se S1)!!%en% $n/ E%ern$( .I% S1)!!%e% $n/ E!%e% In I%!e(, $n/ n-% n A(-

5O%er!'.

B1% %e Ce(e)r$%-n! $n/ Ce(e)r$%e

/ One! $re ne%er E%ern$(! n-% 3er Se S1)!!%en%!. Te2 E!% n O%er .e D6ne E!!en+e -r

G-/e$/.

I, %e2 $re n-% 3er Se S1)!!%en%! $n/ 3er Se E!%en%! %en %e2 S1)!!% $n/ E!% n A(- %en

%e2 $re A++/en%! .Sn+e An A++/en% ne%er +$n !1)!!% n I%!e(, n-r +$n S1)!!% n I%!e(,.

I% 01!% )e n-%e/ %$% E!%en+e ! %e On(2 A+%1$(7$%-n O, $n E!!en+e" $n/ $n2 %ng %$% !

3-!%er-r %- % ! $n A++/en%. T! /-e! 08(2 %$% E!%en+e $n/ S1)!!%en+e $re !188(e/ %-

e$+ -n -, %e Ce(e)r$%-n! $n/ +e(e)r$%e/ -ne! )2 %e D6ne E!!en+e 5G-/e$/9D6n%2'" $n/

%e2 re+e6e %e E!%en+e Fr-0 %e E!!en+e.

Sn+e e$+ -ne -, %e Ce(e)r$%-n! $n/ Ce(e)r$%e/ One! ($+! %! 3r-8er E!%en+e $n/ %! 3r-8er

S1)!!%en+e. T! ! n-%ng )1% %e D-g0$ %$% De%2 ! %e On(2 S1)!%$n+e $n/ $n2 %ng -%er

%$n De%2 ! $n A++/en%.

N-; -ne 0$2 +-0e %- /!+1!! %e +($0 %$% Ce(e)r$%-n! " Ce(e)r$%e/ One! $n/ G-/ $(( $re One

In E!!en+e 5 G-/e$/'.

One 0$2 %er0 % $! I((1!-n -r Ce(e)r$%-n -r A++/en% %e +-n+e8% ! -ne $n/ %e !$0e . I, -ne

/!(e %e ;-r/ I((1!-n -r M$2$ -ne 0$2 n-% 1!e %! ;-r(/" )1% -ne %ng ! C-00-n %$% ! %e2

$re n-% S1)!!%en%" $n/ S1)!!% n D6ne E!!en+e 5G-/e$/9D6n%2'.

T! re/1+e! %e /-g0$ -, Ce(e)r$%-n! %- 3$n%e!0.

N-; -ne 0$2 +-0e %- /!+1!! %e +($0 %$% Ce(e)r$%-n! " Ce(e)r$%e/ One! $n/ G-/ $(( $re OneIn E!!en+e 5 G-/e$/'.

Te Un-n O, Ce(e)r$%-n! " Ce(e)r$%e/ One! $n/ G-/ ! n %e G-/e$/ O, G-/.

B1% %! Un-n ! n-% $n E!!en%$( Un-n 5 Un-n O, $n E!!en+e ;% $n -%er E!!en+e' )1% % ! $n

A++/en%$( Un-n 5 Un-n O, $n E!!en+e ;% A++/en%!'.

T! 0e$n! n-%ng )1% %$% %e G-/ Un%e! W% Ce(e)r$%-n! $n/ Ce(e)r$%e/ One! In G-/e$/.

A! A++/en%! +$nn-% e!% n %e0!e(6e! $n/ +$nn-% !1)!!% n %e0!e(6e! $n/ re+e6e

S1)!!%en+e $n/ E!%en+e ,r-0 %e 3er Se S1)!%en+e E!!en+e O, De%2" % ! 6er2 +(e$r %$%

Se(, O, E$+ Ce(e)r$%-n $n/ e$+ Ce(e)r$%e/ One ! N-% G-/" n An2 Sen!e.

Ye% %e2 $re -ne n E!!en+e" ;ere %e 5G-/e$/ O, G-/' D6ne E!!en+e ! C-001n+$)(e %- %e

G-/ " )1% %e!e Ce(e)r$%-n! $n/ Ce(e)r$%e/ One! $re n-% C-001n+$)(e n %! !en!e.

Ne%er An2 One O, %e Ce(e)r$%-n n-r %e An2 One O, %e Ce(e)r$%e/ One! ! E%ern$( "

S1)!!%en% $n/ Un$nn($%$)(e.

T! ! $ 6er2 !%r-ng +$!e -, 3$n%e!0.

:

776

77

78

79

7:7

7778

868788

898:

888

8

9

9697

98

999:

9

99

9

::6

:7:8

:9

:


30/54

88

A(!- %! 08(e! %$% G-/ -r G-/e$/ -r )-% $re %e S1)


31/54

8686

ven in Hinduism there is a difference between an Ordanary Human Being and Persons

like Ra:m(a) or rishn(a)!"f all Human beings are One #ith $eity %"f &ll Human Beings

are Part and Parcel Of $eity% if all the Human beings are eternally "ndividuals and if all

Human Beings are $eity in '$ivine ssenceOusia% then there is no $istinction Rama

and Ravana% rishna and his foes etc! very *om and $ick becomes e+ual to Rama and

risna! ,o to draw a distinction between one grou- of -eo-le say Rama% rishna etc!

and other grou- of -eo-le say any human being on earth is wrong and incorrect! ,o

what does this Ob.ection /aker says does not corres-onds to Po-ular Hinduism! *his

im-lies that one should worshi- his own self not rishna or one may not worshi- any

thing at all! #hy shall One that is $eity in ssenceOusia worshi- the $ivine ssence

Ousia which is nothing but Ones0s $ivine ,elf!

f

THE OBJECTION MAKER SAYS:=

Nor do I sus;rie to the monist =hiloso=hy that says all indi


32/54

8787

S0 '$( 04& C(*(4+'01& +1 I**%&01& M++] 0(& 10' -+( -%)$ D(4(1)( 1

'$( N+'%4( 0; '$(4 S%@()'&.

I; '$( +4( 10' +*'(41+'?( '(4-& '$( -+( &*$' (4(1)( 1 '$( N+'%4( 0; '$(

'$1&.$)$ +4( '$( S%@()'& 0; '$(-.

S0 '$(4( +4( &0-( (4(1)( 0; 0


33/54

8888

ACC%IN, #% #$E %,(A %3 #INI#4 #$EE AE #$EE (*#*A--4 IS#NC# E#ENA- $4+%S#ASES AN

%N-4 %NE E#ENA- &EIN,. IN (%E C-EA W%S %NE E#ENA- AN I/INE &EIN,; AN IN #$IS &EIN,

#$EE IS %NE +E SE S*&SIS#EN# ESSENCE ; AN IN #$IS +E SE S*&SIS#EN# ESSENCE #$EE AE #$EE

(*#*A--4 IS#INC# $4+%S#ASES C%NS#*#E &4 3%* E-A#I%NS. #$E NA#*E %3 #$E I/INE ESSENCE IS

#$E I/INE ESSENCE I#SE-3 I.E NA#*E AN ESSENCE AE %NE AN #$E SA(E #$IN, IN #$E I/INE CASE I.E

IN #$E CASE %3 EI#4. #$E N*(&E %3 EI#4GEI#IES E+ENS *+%N #$E N*(&E %3 #$E ESSENCE %

&EIN, %3 #$E EI#4 AN N%# *+%N #$E N*(&E %3 $4+%S#ASES IN #$E ESSENCE % &EIN, %3 #$E EI#4.

#$A# IS W$4 #$E N*(AICA--4 #$EE $4+%S#ASES C%NS#I#*#E %NE &EIN, 0EIS#EN#2.

ANSWE!"

A# -EAS# #$IS IN N%# #$E CASE WI#$ Q*AN. I# IS N%# #$E S+EEC$ %3 AN4 CEA#E S*++%SI#*( SA4

$*(AN % AN,E- % W$A# S% E/E.

http""www.religiousforums.com"threads"#uran$created$or$eternal.%&"page$*

+-/01+2345!

When all (uslims proclaim that Quran is the word of ,od; naturally it has to be assumed that the Quran is

eternal. &ut Is#a'i" teo#o$! 'i$t ave so'e ,i&&i"u#t! in e0/#ainin$ o. tere "ou#, be te /eno'enon o& t.o

eterna#s(

OB%E&TIO!655"

#he Ouestion of PHMDBJshir


34/54

8989

If it is accepted that there are some problems in Islamic theolo9ical System then it may be noted that there

is no reli9ious system which is beyond such theolo9ical problems. Even the theolo9ical system is not beyond

such theolo9ical problems. #he Ouestion is how a reli9ious system deals with these problems. It is the

solution to the problem presented by the theolo9ical system of a reli9ion; which is important and si9nificant

not the problem. So mere the e:istence of a problem in the theolo9ical system of a reli9ion cannot be a

proof of the wea


35/54

8:8:

BF2 #$E &EIE3 #$A# EI#4 IS N%# E#ENA-.

BL2 #$E &E-IE3 #$A# #$E W%- % AN4 +A# %3 AN4 +%SSI&&-E W%- EIS# IN I/INE ESSEN#IA ;I/INE

%*SIA ;I/INI#4;,%$EA;I/INE NA#*E.

BJ2#$E &E-IE3 #$A# CEA#I%NS AE +A#S %3 EI#4.

B2 #$E &E-IE3 #$A# EI#4 IS +A# %3 CEA#I%NS 0W%-2; E#C.

BM2 a@#$E &E-IE3 #$A# +%SSI&I-I#4 %3 CEA#I%N AN CEA#*ES EIS# IN #$E I/INE ESSENCE.b@ #$E &E-IE3

#$A# #$E W%- AN #$IN,S IN #$E W%- EIS# INSIE #$E I/INE ESSENCEG,%$EA.

BR2 #$E &E-IE3 #$A# EI#4 #A)ES 3%( %3 W%- AN #$IN,S IN #$E W%-. Etc.

#o believe that Created &ein9s and *ncreated &ein9 are %ne In Essence or to believe that Created &ein9s are

+art and +arcel %f *ncreated &ein9 or both ; such believes are certainly S$IC beyond doubt. #he %b=ection

(a


36/54

88'$( 01( +1 &+-( S%4(-( B(1. B%' '$& & 10'$1 %' S$4). F04 (5+-


37/54

88

A4 4+%e& t) thi+ )3.ecti)4 i+ + ,)//)%>?

C)&&(*ti)4 ), *)++i3/e c&eti)4 i+ *)++i3/e 4eithe& 4ece++&' 4)t 3+(&d [i5*)++i3/e!<

B(t *)++i3i/it' ), thi4- d)eth 4)t i5*/' the )cc(&&e4ce ), the thi4-< Si4ce *)++i3i/it' 4eithe&

i5*/' e1i+te4ce 4)& i5[*/' ct(/i0ti)4< S) it thi+ c+e +(**)+ed ,)& the +ke ), &-(5e4t+ i,

the )4/' ct(/i0ed ,)&5 ), $(&4 i+ *)++i3/e t) 3e c)&&(*ted it i+ /+) *)++i3/e tht it i+ 4)t

c)&&(*ted< Neithe& c)&&(*ti)4 i+ 4ece++&' 4)& 4)t# c)&&(*ti)4 i+ 4ece++&'< N)% t) +2e $(&4;+

,)&5 i+ /+) *)++i3/e ,)& deit'< S) deit' *2e *)%e& t) +2e the ,)&5 ), the $(&;4 ,&)5

c)&&(*ti)4< S) i, the c&eted ,)&5 ), (4c&eted $(&4 i+ +2ed 3' the )54i*)te4t deit' the&e i+ 4)

c)&&(*ti)4 it $(&;4<

It 5(+t 3e 4)ted tht di2i4e k4)%/ed-e i+ )54i+cie4ce 4d di2i4e tt&i3(te < di2i4e k4)%/ed-e

i+ ete&4/e++e4ti/4ece++&'3+)/(tei44ite+i5*/e %ith )(t 4' e1ce*ti)4 e4c)5*++e+ e2e&'

)3.ect ), k4)%/ed-e [ )3.ect ), k4)%/ed-e ? // tht c4 3e k4)%4 %hethe& *)++i3/e )& 4ece++&'

)& 3+(&d 4)t 4ece++&' 4 e1i+te4t!< S) thi+ i+ i5*)++i3/e tht e4ti&e k4)%/ed-e i+ 2i/3/e t)

4' c&eti)4< It i+ 3+)/(te# 3+(&d 4)t .(+t &e/ti2e# 3+(&d< [ 3+)/(te #i5*)++i3/e 4)t .(+t

&e/ti2e# *)++i3/e!<

N)te6>? Te&5+ /ike A3+)/(te#I5*)++i3/e etc &e te&5+ 5' 4)t +)(4d -&55tic/ +)5e 5'

+(--e+t t) (+e te&5+ /ike A3+)/(te/' I5*)++i3/e 3(t the +e4+e c4 )4/' 3e *&e+e&2ed i, the te&5

A3+)/(te#I5*)++i3/e i+ (+ed<

N)te76?> Di2i4e E4e&-ie+ 4d Di2i4e C*3i/itie+ &e Di2i4e Att&i3(te+ A4d N)thi4- B(t Di2i4e

Att&i3(te+? Thi+ d)e+ 5ke di+ti4cti)4+ 3et%ee4 Di2i4e Att&i3(te+ 4d The Ce/e3&ti)4+< The

)3.ecti)4 Mke& Acce*t+ tht> KHis capabilities would also be eternal T otherwise $e would have

diminished and no lon9er a ,od8. If the Celebrations are not Eternal then does eity iminish? If the Answer

is Ne9ative then Celebrations are Not Attributes. If the Answer is Affirmative then Celebrations areAttributes. #here is no escape from this ilemma.

NoteHF!" If Quran hath several +er Se +ossible 3orms it is not Necessary that it chan9es its form as su99ested

by the %b=ection (a? The /e&4ed O3.ecti)4 Mke& +'+ tht K$e would have diminished and no lon9er a ,od8

#his means if eity is not Eternally Infallible the $e Ceaseth to be eity. As Creations are not Infallible the

cannot be eternally infallible ; hence the are not eities and it is a flaw or a defect in ivine Essence is

there is a +er Se +ossibility or +er Se Contin9ency of bein9 the +art and +arcel of eity. A dis9race and

disarmament of the eity and ivine +erfection.

OBJECTION69>?

8

679

67:

6767

676767667666767

67686769676:676676676

6766776776

67776778

6779

677:677

677677

6776786786

6787

67886789678:

678

678

678

678

9


38/54

88

We use the word ,od or Allah or )rishna when we anthropomorphise the phenomenon called life and thereby

often for9et that ,od; however called is but life or e:istence.Fors !" #$!%&e '(ie); &ut life is eternal

and ever celebratin9 its potency in various and endless forms and names.

ANSWE!"

EI#4 $AS N% 3%(. #$E W% 3%( I3 *SE IN CASE %3 EI#4 %N-4 (EANE#$ I/INE ESSENCE. S% #$EE

IS N% 3%( %3 EI#4 ECE+# I/INE ESSENCE. #$E SA(E IS #*E %3 #$E I/INE NA#*E. IN CASE %3 EI#4

ESSENCE AN NA#*E AE %NE AN $A/E #$E SA(E (EANIN,. I3 I# IS S*++SE #$A# I/INE E#ENA-

A##I&*#ES $A/E I33EEN# N%N A##ENA- 3%(S E/EN #$EN I# IS N%# I(+-IE #$A# #$E EI#4 I.E I/INE

ESSENCE $A/E I33EEN# E#ENA- 3%(S. &*# -E# I# &E S*++%SE #$A# #$E I/INE EI#$ $A#$ S%(E N%N

E#ENA- 3%(S; #$EN N% 3%( IS EI#4;EAC$ 3%( IS A N%#5EI#4 ; A N%#5,%.SI(I-A-4 N% 3%( %3

AN4 I/INE A##I&*#E IS A I/INE A##I&*#E.

Note %nly ivine /ita 0-ife2 is Eternal; Not ivine -ife is Not Eternal.

Also Non Eternal -ives are corruptible 0I.E #$EI C%*+#I%N IS A&S%-*#E5+%SSI&-E >A&S%-*#E-4

+%SSI&-E@2. #he number of people ie each day is a Certain +roof of the Claim. &ut eity Cannot die; since

this is Absolute 5Absurd.

#he +roblem %f Noun )rishna. If the word )rishna is used for the ivine Essence i.e eity li


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88

THAT ONLY NATURES CAN BE ASSUMED. BUT THE OBJECTION MAKER CANNOT REDUCE THE ENTIRE 2ORLD

INTO A NATURE. SO EVEN FROM THE POINT OF VIE2 OF TRINITARIAN CHRISTIANDOM IT IS ABSOLUTE3

IMPOSSIBLE THAT DEITY ASSUMES THE ENTIRE 2ORLD AS A NATURE.

THE NUCLEUS OF THE PROBLEM.

I' +


40/54

99A!SW#*:=

%T "A! # "O;;U!%"AT#& &%*#"TL4. S%!"# T# A"T OF S+#A%!< %S !OT #T#*!AL. UT T%S %S O!L4 A "O*ALL#*4 OF A

;O*# FU!&A;#!TAL +%LOSO+%"AL +*OL#;. T# #;A!AT%O! O* %SUUA!"# OF &%>%!# A"T O* &O%!%!#

ATT*%UT#S O* (UAL%T%#S.

T# WO*& S"%L#!"# %S US#& %! S#>#*AL ;#A!%!?

KI+ c&eti)4 4d c&et)& )4e 4d the +5e thi4- Ye+#! %F T#4 A*# O!# %! #SS#!"# OF %T4. One again the O8ection ;a'er uses the wor

"eleration. A "reation One With &eity is A "eleration) as it a--ears fro, his wor'. %T4 is %nfinitely eyon the +ossiility of Fallales to e One

with i, .ut if one ,ay as' that what are the ifferences a,ong the "elerator ) "eleration) an the "elerate Ones.&oes it ,ean that the Self of a

"reation is istint fro, &eity i.e they are istinct in sel/es ut they share one an the sa,e #ssence3 %n other wors they are essentially the sa,e ut selfly

ifferent fro, one an other. %s that so3 %f not then they are one in each regar. %f so then there is no "reation at all ut there is only one ini/iual that is

&eity. ut if their Sel/es are &istinct ut the #ssence is one an the sa,e) then the A2io, One Who %s &istinct Fro, &eity is !ot &eity is contraicte.

Since accoring to *es-ecte O8ection ;a'er &eity is %nfalale an we are not. %t ,ay not soun oscure to so,e since lo/e an faith are lin.

686

6866

68676868

6869

686:686

686

686

686

687

6876

6877

6878

6879

687:

687

687

687

687

688

6886

6887

6888

6889

688:

6886886886886896896

6897


41/54

9696Actually an Accient is #-he,eral) ut e/en souns can e conser/e as it is -ossile) only our ears fails to listen the,. !o "reation whether #-he,eral

Accient or !on #-he,eral Sustance is a celeration as accoring to the sense of the O8ection ;a'er. "reations Of &eity are &istinct Fro, &eity. !o

"reation say worl #2isteth %n &i/ine #ssence.

+*OL#; OF" #L#*AT%O!:=

The elief that &eity can Only ;a'e Things in is


42/54

9797

OBJECTION #1!:

Is creation and creator one and the same thing? Yes. ANSWER:=

A]Creation and Creator are not the same. Since :=1] The Creator Is Certain! Not A Creation."] The Creations are Not Eternas and Creator Is Eterna.

#]Creator is A$so%te Necessar! E&istent and Creations Are A$so%te 'ossi$e E&istents.(] It Is A$so%te A$s%rd that Sing%arit! Is '%rait! and '%rait! Is Sing%arit!.)]Sing%arit! is Not '%rait! and '%rait! Is Not Sing%arit!. See A$o*e:+

] I- to things /0ne eit! and 0ne Creation] are 0ne then the! are not 2%st to distinct indi*id%as in one Essence $%t 0ne and same Indi*id%a ithon! 0ne Essence.

T3E 045A 06 CE7IRATI0N 5AY E RE2ECTE 60R T3E 60770WIN4 REAS0N:=

Either a Cei$ration is the i*ine Esse /E&istence] or It is Not .I- it is then it is the i*ine Essence , since Esse is the Essence and Essence is the Esse ,Essence is the S%$stance and the S%$stance is the Essence, Essence is the 6orm and the 6orm is the Essence and ast not the east Essence

is the Nat%re and the Nat%re is the Essence, IN T3E CASE 06 EITY. I- it is the i*ine Essence then it is Necessar! eing , and i - Necessar!

eing then S%8reme eing. %t a Cee$ration is neither the S%8reme eing nor the Necessar! eing. Since S%8reme eing and Necessar! eing

are 0ne and the same Indi*id%a i.e eit!. %t according to the 0$9ection 5aer a Cee$ration is not eit! in Each and E*er! Res8ect andregard. I- the Cei$ration is not the i*ine Esse then the i*ine Esse is Comm%nica$e to It. I6 S0 then a cee$ration ceases to $e a cee$ration

and $ecomes a 3!8ostasis in i*ine Esse, and i- in i*ine Esse then in i*ine Essence ,SINCE I;INE ESSE AN I;INE ESSENCE ARE

0NE AN T3E SA5E. I6 a 3!8ostasis in i*ine Essence /403EA


43/54

9898ε ] There are se*era intransiti*e Acts hich cannot $e Ascri$ed to eit! !et the ogma 0- Cee$ration s%ggests the eit! does them $!$ecoming Creations ie E&8ansion, Contraction,E&8osion,See8ing, 5o*ing etc.ζ ]There is no Non i*ine S%$stance,$%t Nat%res 0- Non i*ine S%$stances in the Word.This means that eit! is oing a Transati*es acts $! $ecoming S%$9ects /Agents] and 0$9ects in the Word. 0ne Cee$ration 0- eit! doing a

Transact ACT to an other eit! is aa!s doing things to 3imse- hether the Acts or 4ood or ad or E*i hat so e*er The conse%ences o- ogma 0- Cee$rations in i*ine 0%sia stated a$o*e are Indis8ensi$e and ine*ita$e.

E*en the earned 0$9ection 5aer is not ie! to acce8t these conse%ences o- this ogma. Ass%ming a Nat%re means nothing $%t to $ecome a

$eing o- the Nat%re.

Conc%sion:=The ogma o- Cee$ration in*o*es eit! in each and e*er! -a, de-ect, $ad, e*i . This dogma is a disgrace to i*ine eing /eit!@4od @ armh

Esh*era etc].This ogma ma! eads to the *ie that there is nothing e*i in the ord, e*en canni$aism is not e*i etc.

E] It ma! $e noted that the earned 0$9ection 5aer oes negect the 'ro$ems and 0$9ections on the 045A 06 CE7ERATI0NS and

5ae o$9ections on others.

Sometimes 0$9ections are as $ind as o*e .

Now we "uote andit $a%anand &arsoti w'o tried to defend Eternit% Of (edas) *'at so e+er 'e said was inspired b% C'ristian and ,uslim

*or-s)His words for (edas $o &er+e our urpose:

!ote :? +anit &ianan has atte,te to answer inter-ellations as well. So,e of the critic re,ar's

are ae y the author of the -resent re-lier which were initially asent . The are ae in

U--er case in general.

Ch*te& 9The Ete&4it' ), the "ed+

The "ed+ h2i4- 3ee4 *&)d(ced 3' G)d 4d // *)%e&+ ), G)d 3ei4- ete&4/ thei&ete&4it' i+ +e/,#e2ide4t<

He&e +)5e)4e 5i-ht +' tht the "ed+ c)(/d 4)t 3e ete&4/ 3ec(+e the'

c)4+i+ted ), %)&d+ 4d %)&d+ /ike .& %e&e eect+ i


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9999

Q< B(t the&e %e&e 4) 3))k+ i4 e1i+te4ce 4d c)4+e$(e4t/' 4) ct+ ), /e&4i4- 4d

techi4- the "ed+ %e&e *)++i3/e t the ti5e %he4 // thi+ (4i2e&+e /' di++)/2ed

4d di+i4te-&ted

i4 it+ c(+/ +tte 4d %he4 // -&)++ eect+ %e&e 4)4#e1i+te4t< H)% the4 d) ')(

d5it the "ed+ t) 3e ete&4/

A< Thi+ )3.ecti)4 c4 3e &i+ed i4 &e+*ect ), 3))k+ i4k **e& etc

+ the' %e&e i4 the *+t 4d +h// &e5i4 the +5e i4 the ,(t(&e /+)<

[THE SAME IS TRUE FOR OTHER BOO=S AND HUMAN WORDS SINCE THE RELATIONOF THEIR WORDS AND MEANINGS WORDS AND MEANINGS ALL CO EIST WITH

DI"INE =NOWLEDGE < IF THEY CO EIST IN ONE CALPA THE CO EISTED IN E"ERY

CALPA OF THE PAST AND SHALL CO EIST IN E"ERY CALPA IN FUTURE< SO THEY ARE

ALSO ETERNAL BY THIS ARGUMENT< IF THEY DO NOT CO EIST IN A SINGLE CALPA

THEN DEITY [BARMH! DOES CEASE TO BE OMNISCIENCE

He4ce it i+ +id i4 the Ri-2ed > 9< The -&et C&et)& 5de the +(4 4d the

5))4 .(+t + He hd 5de the5 3e,)&eX The %)&d+ the +(4 4d the 5))4; i4 the

2e&+e &e c/++ 45e+ 4d thei& 5e4i4- i+ tht the */4 ), the 45e+ 4d thei&

5e4i4- i+ tht the */4 ), the c&eti)4 ), the +(4 4d the 5))4 i4 the *&e+e4t

k/* i+ the +5e + tht %hich e1i+ted i4 G)d;+ k4)%/ed-e i4 the *&e2i)(+ k/*3ec(+e Hi+ k4)%/ed-e i+ 4)t /i3/e t) i4c&e+e )& dec&e+e )& 2&iti)4< The +5e

i+ t&(e ), the "ed+ ,)& the' t)) &e the *&)d(ct+ ), Hi+ k4)%/ed-e


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9:9:

We +h// 4)% -i2e +)5e $()tti)4+ ,&)5 the %)&k+ )4 the +cie4ce ), -&55& etc


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99

A %)&d i+ + de4ed + tht %hich i+ *e&cei2ed %ith the )&-4 ), he&i4- i+

(4de&+t))d 3' 5e4+ ), i4te//ect 3ec)5e+ 54i,e+t )4 3ei4- *&)4)(4ced 4d

i4he&e+ i4 +*ce< Thi+ de4iti)4 ), %)&d /+) +h)%+ tht it i+ ete&4/< The e)&t (+ed

i4 *&)4)(4ci4- /ette&V 4d the ct ), he&i4- it ce+e+ t) e1i+t ,te& 5)5e4t<

The (th)& ), the Mh3h+h' +'+ tht +*eech &e+ide+ i4 )4e /ette& t ti5e<

The cti)4 ), +*eech te&5i4te+ %ith the *&)4(4citi)4 ), ech/ette&<

W( &$0%*, '$(4(;04(, )01)*%( '$+' ' & '$( +)' 0; &

[IT IS MEEKLY ACCEPTED THAT ALL THE WORDS SPOKEN SO FAR AND ALL THE

BOOKS AUTHORED SO FAR ARE ETERNAL. IF SO THEN WHY ONLY VEDAS ARE

SAID TO BE ETERNAL, AS IF NO OTHER WORK [BOOK] OR WORD IS ETERNA. IT

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99

IS JUST LIKE TO SAY THAT THE PEOPLES OF NEW DELHI ARE HUMANS BEINGS

AS IF ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT. IS THIS NOT SOME THING

PROBLEMATIC].

The +-e Ji5i4i /+) h+ e+t3/i+hed the ete&4/4e++ ), %)&d+< S'+ he i4 hi+

P(&25i54+ IA %)&d 3ei4- i5*e&i+h3/e i+ ete&4/< [ THIS MEANS THAT ONE THAT IS NOT

ANNIHILATABLE IS ETERNAL< POINT TO BE NOTED! The "ed+

&e (th)&itti2e 3ec(+e the' &e Hi+ %)&d 4d 3ec(+e the' c)4ti4 4 e1*)+iti)4), Dh&5<

"i+he+hik I < The 5e4i4- ), the *h)&i+5 i+ tht // 5e4 +h)(/d ck4)%/ed-e

the ete&4/ (th)&it' ), the ,)(& "ed+ 3ec(+e the' e4.)i4 the *e&,)&54ce ),

Dh&5 + d(t' 4d &e the %)&d ), G)d<

[THE SAME CAN BE SAID FOR JEWISH BIBLE AS WELL>? e-

A// 5e4 +h)(/d ck4)%/ed-e the ete&4/ (th)&it' ), the ,)(& TORAH 3ec(+e It

e4.)i4 the *e&,)&54ce ), Dh&5[Re/i-i)4! + d(t' 4d &e the %)&d ), G)d<

Si5i/&/' the +-e G)(t5 /+) +'+ i4 hi+ N'' Sh+t& The (th)&itti2e4e++

), 2e&3/ *&)), i+ /ike tht ), the "ed 4d the 5edic/ +cie4ce A'(&2edV 4d it h+

3ee4 dec/&ed 3' the A*t+ t&(+t%)&th' *e&+)4+V;<

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6:

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686

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99

N'' II 6>< It+ *(&*)&t i+ tht // 5e4 +h)(/d ck4)%/ed-e the (th)&itti2e4e++

), the "ed+ %hich &e ete&4/ 4d &e the %)&d ), G)d 3ec(+e // the -&et Y)-i+

B&h5 etc


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99

[THIS MEANS THAT THE DI"INE POWER IS THE PRODUCER AND "EDAS ARE

PRODUCED ONES< AS PRODUCERS ACTI"E PARTICIPLEV AND PRODUCED ONES

PASSI"E PARTICIPLEV ARE MUTUALLY DISCTINCT THEN DI"INE OMNISCIENCE IS NOT

"EDAS AND "EDAS ARE NOT DI"INE OMNISCIENCE!<

The 5e4i4- ), thi+ i+ tht + the "ed+ h2e 3ee4 3&)(-ht t) /i-ht 3' the chie,i4he&e4t *)%e& ), G)d )4e 4eed t) ck4)%/ed-e thei& +e/,#(th)&itti2e 4d ete&4/

ch&cte&<

S-e =&i+h4d%i*'4 "'+ /+) 5ke+ the ,)//)%i4- )3+e&2ti)4+ )4 thi+

+(3.ect i4 hi+ "ed4t Sh+t&># He i+ the +)(&ce ), the

Sh+t& "edV

(*)4 it i+ +) %e// k4)%4 i4 the %)&/d tht it i+ 4)t 4ece++&' t) /3)& the *)i4t

,(&the&<

Thi+ -)e+ t) +h)% tht the Sh+t& ), the O54i+cie4t G)d 5(+t 4eed+ 3e ete&4/

4d 5(+t c)4ti4 k4)%/ed-e ), // thi4-+< I4 the +5e ch*te& ), the "ed4t

Sh+t& )cc(&+ 4)the& *h)&i+5 2i0 A4d ,)&

*(&*)&t ), %hich i+ + ,)//)%+># G)d i+ O54i*&e+e4t etc

&ecei2i4- %)(4d< 7V

He i+ 4)t 3)(4d 3' the 3)4d+ ), &te&ie+ etc


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::

He i+ the (4i2e&+/ ,the& [ THIS ASCRIBES THE QUALITY OF GENERATION TO DEITY!

3(t ), Hi5 the -e4e&t)& the&e i+ 4)4e< He /%'+ e1i+t+ 3' Hi+ )%4 5i-ht G)d the

+(*&e5e Se/, [i

+he h+ +)4 +he c44)t 3e +te&i/e 4d i, +he h+ 4) +)4 4) )4e c4 +ee hi+

5&&i-e< :VTh)+e 2e&' c)4+ide&ti)4+ **/' t) the c+e i4 h4d< I, G)d 3e de2)id), i44ite k4)%/ed-e He %)(/d 4)t 3e 3/e t) i5*&t it t) )the&+ 4) )4e %)(/d 3e

3/e t) c$(i&e k4)%/ed-e 4d e1*e&ie4ce ,)& 4)thi4- c4 -&)% %hich

h+ 4) &))t< N)thi4- i+ +ee4 i4 the %)&/d %hich h+ 3ee4 *&)d(ced %ith)(t c(+e<

We +h// 4)% +tte %ht i+ the ct(/ e1*e&ie4ce ), // 5e4< We &eti4 the

i5*&e++i)4+ ), tht )4/' %hich h+ 3ee4 the +(3.ect ), )(& di&ect c)-4iti)4 4d %e

&e5e53e& 4d k4)% tht )4/' ), %hich %e &eti4 the i5*&e++i)4+<

Thi+ k4)%/ed-e /)4e +(**/ie+ (+ %ith the 5)ti2e+ ), cti)4 4d i4cti)4<

tt&cti)4 4d &e*(/+i)4V< It c44)t 3e )the&%i+e< Wh)+)e2e& &ed+ S4+k&it -et+

the i5*&e++i)4+ ), tht /4-(-e )4/' 4d ), 4) )the&


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:6:6

I4 thi+ %' i, G)d hd 4)t i4+t&(cted 4d t(-ht 5e4 i4 the 3e-i44i4- ), c&eti)4 4)

)4e %)(/d h2e 3ee4 3/e t) c)5e 3' e1*e&ie4ce tht i+ &e$(i+ite ,)& c$(i+iti)4 ),

k4)%/ed-eQ< B(t %h' Me4 h2e 4t(&/ 3e4t t) ct 4d i4 thei& cti2itie+ the' e1*e&ie4ce

*/e+(&e 4d *i4< S) -&d(//' 4d i4 c)(&+e t) ti5e the' 5(+t i4c&e+e thei&

+t)ck ), k4)%/ed-e< Wh' +h)(/d it the4 3e 3e/ie2ed tht the "ed+ %e&e *&)d(ced

3' G)d

A< We &e,(ted thi+ )3.ecti)4 %hi/e t&eti4- ), the )&i-i4 ), the "ed+< We *&)2ed

the&e tht e2e4 4)% 4) )4e c$(i&e+ k4)%/ed-e 4d i+ 3/e t) i4c&e+e it %ith)(t

&ecei2i4- i4+t&(cti)4 ,&)5 )the&+ +) 54 c)(/d 4)t h2e 5de *&)-&e++ i4 /e&4i4-

4d k4)%/ed-e %ith)(t h2i4- &ecei2ed i4+t&(cti)4 ,&)5 G)d i4 the 3e-i44i4-

th&)(-h the "ed+<

The&e %e i//(+t&ted )(& 5e4i4- 3' the c+e ), chi/d&e4 ke*t i4 %i/de&4e++

%ith)(t i4+t&(cti)4 4d /+) 3' the c(+e ), the d%e//e&+ ), ,)&e+t+< We +t tht +(ch

chi/d&e4 4d d%e//e&+ ), ,)&e+t +) c)(/d 4eithe& c$(i&e k4)%/ed-e 4)& /e&4 the

(+e ), h(54 +*eech %ith)(t i4+t&(cti)4 /et /)4e the $(e+ti)4 ), the )&i-i4 ),

k4)%/ed-e th&)(-h e1*e&ie4ceV<

The&e,)&e the k4)%/ed-e c)4ti4ed i4 the "ed+ %hich h+ *&)ceeded ,&)5 G)d

5(+t 4eed+ t) 3e ete&4/ /ike // ), Hi+ tt&i3(te+


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:7:7

PROCEDURE ARE DISTINCT FROM EACH OTHER!<

E1i+te4ce ), *&)d(ce& 4d i, the *&)d(ce& it+e/, h**e4+ t) 3e the &e+(/t ),

c)53i4ti)4 it %i// h2e it+ )%4 *&)d(ce& 4d +) )4 d i44it(5< Tht %hich it+e/, i+

the *&)d(ct ), c)53i4ti)4 c44)t h2e the *)%e& ), c)53i4i4- *&k&iti )& the

t)5+ *&54(+V ,)& the /tte& %i// 3e +(3t/e& th4 it+e/,< The +(3t/e& i+ the At5

*e&2de&V ), the -&)++e& ,)& the ,)&5e& i+ c*3/e ), *e4et&ti4- i4t) the /tte& +&e *e4et&te+ i4t) i&)4<

A+ &e )4 cc)(4t ), it+ +(3t/e c)5*)+iti)4 c4 e4te& i4t) the h&d 4d -&)++ i&)4

4d +e*&te it+ *&tic/e+ ,&)5 )4e 4)the& +) %te& 3ei4- +(3t/e& th4 e&th c4

e4te& i4t) it+ *&tic/e+ 4d c)53i4e the5 i4t) 3// )& +e*&te the5 ,&)5 )4e

4)the&<

G)d i+ 3)2e c)4.(4cti)4 4d di+.(4cti)4 4d i+ //#*e&2di4-< He i+ c)4+e$(e4t/'

3/e t) 3&i4- 3)(t c)4.(4cti)4 4d di+.(4cti)4 cc)&di4- t) /%< It c44)t 3e

)the&%i+e


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:8:8

THINGS IN OMNISCIENCE OF DEITY BESIDE "EDAS< LAST NOT THE LEAST IT MEANS

THAT THE MEANING OF "EDAS GOES FAR BEYOND THE SANS=RIT MENANINGS< SO IF

A WORD IN SANSCRIT DOES NOT MEAN A THING IT MEANS THAT IS SHOULD SINCE

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO INCLUDE ALL ABSOLUTE INFINITE OMNISCIENCE IN

FINITE WORDS OF "EDAS E"EN IN DI"INE OMNISENCE< !<

NOTE> IT IS POSSIBLE THAT MUSLIMS DO NOT AGREE WITH

DIANAND SARSUTI ON SE"ERAL ISSUES<

BUT THIS IS PRESENTED JUST TO PRO"E THAT ONE MAY USE SOME ARGUMENTS TO

DEFEND SUCH OBJECTION<

FOOTNOTES>?

6V THE WORDS SPO=EN BY HUMAN BEINGS AND THERE MEANINGS ALL ARE IN

DI"INE OMNISCIENCE< SO IN THIS CASE OF SENSE THE HUMAN WORDS ARE ALSO

ETERNAL< THERE ARE THE FOLLOWING SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE "EDAS AND THE

WORDS OF HUMANS6! WORDS IN BOTH CASES ARE NOT ETERNAL WHETHER

READING OR WRITING OR SOUNDS OR PRONOUNCIATIONS ETC< 7! THE WORDS

WHETHER OF "EDAS OR HUMANS BOTH ARE IN =NOWLEDGE OF DEITY THEIR

MEANINGS ARE ALSO IN THE OMNISCIENCE THEIR CONNECTION IS ALSO IN

OMNISCIENCE< SO IF ON SOME GROUNDS "EDAS ARE CALLED ETERNAL HUMAN

WORDS ARE ALSO ETERNAL ON SAME GROUNDS<

7VIT MAY BE NOTED THAT PANDIT DIYANAND SARSUTI DID NOT SAY THAT

PARMANUS ARE IN DI"INE ESSENCE BUT SAYS THAT DEITY IS IN PARMANUS< THEDIFFERENCE IN MEANINGS OF DEITY IN PARMANU IS DIFFERENT FROM PARMANUS

IN DEITY IS OB"IOUS< ALSO THE BASIC NATURE OF PRAMANU IS NOT EPLAINED< IF

EACH PARMANU ARE JUST POINT MASSES THEN THEY CANNOT CONSTITUTE A BODY

OR ANY THING ELSE< SUPPOSE THAT THREE OF THEM ARE PLACED SIDE BY SIDE

SUCH THAT ONE OF THEM IS BETWEEN THE TWO< NOW IF EACH ONE ON THE

ETREME SIDES TOUCHES THE MIDDILE ONE THEN THERE ARE ONLY THE

FOLLOWING CASES< 6V ALL OF THEM O"ERLAP AND CONCIDE WITH EACH OTHER<

IF SO THEN ALL THREE OF THEM OCCUPY ONE AND THE SAME SPACE< THEY CANNOT

CONSTITUTE ANY BODY IN THIS CASE


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:9:9

SO THEN THE MIDDLE PERMANU IS NOT A POINT MASS< THIS IS CONTRARY TO THE

SUPPOSITION THAT ALL THREE ARE POINT MASES

Documents

Refutation Of A Hindu Objection Maker On The Eternity Of AL-QURAN